From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 00:30:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j218T8i9011621; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 00:30:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j218T6nJ011593; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 00:29:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 00:29:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:28:00 -0900 To: From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58166 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:43 PM 2/28/5, Keith Nagel wrote: >Horace writes: >>Why not use a Pd (or maybe Ni) anode along with the antimony dissolved in >>HCL to do the codeposition? This *might* avoid the otherwise inevitable >>explosion and permit operation continuous enough to do calorimtry. > >I'd rather use Pd and Sb salts and a carbon electrode; it's hard >enough to control the relative composition without an anode adding >more of one kind of metal. You don't think a carbon anode will contaminate the cathode with carbon? > >Besides, I just want to measure the voltage/current curve for >the Sb/HCl system and the mass change of the cathode; with that info >we can make an informed guess on the input energy. Doing >good calorimetry would take someone parting with some coin, >but I'll do the VI curves for the antimony rod. The energy input is not critical to know. It is the cathode deposit energy density which is above chemical. If you should run electrolysis all year to get a gram deposited that still is not necessarily meaningful. Maybe a large part of the electrolysis energy is lost as heat somehow. Without careful calorimetry you won't know exactly what energy went into the cathode. It is the energy output per deposited gram number that is suspect. If you should get a very small number of amp-hours/gram of deposit, then I suppose you have accomplished something useful, so that is your point. You have then proven what is already assumed - that a chemical amount of energy can do the deposition. My suggestion was not meant to assist in replication, but rather it was meant to be a suggestion of something that might produce useful results with what materials you have on hand. I was suggesting that a co-deposited deposited Pd electrode, doped with Sb, may be worth checking for ou behaviour. If you would prefer to avoid a Pd anode, then just a Pt anode and an electrolyte with Pd and Sb salts should work. Calorimetry on a doped electrode would hopefully be a lot easier than on an exploding electrode. As you imply, the thing that has to be done for replication is a very difficult thing - measuring the heat produced in the explosion. Some more speculation: Suppose an Sb cathode with the subject electrolyte is a hydrino catalyst during electrolysis. The hydrinos should move easily through the Sb lattice, and be easily adsorbed, once formed. A large concentration of hydrinos inside the Sb could be self catalysing and thus explosive. As easily as they are concentrated, they should leave by diffusion over time when electrolysis ceases. If this is true, then simply waiting a few days to trigger the explosion should result in a much diminished result. If hydrinos can diffuse through Sb they should flow like an almost unimpeded gas through Pd. An Sb layer deposited on an evacuated or gas filled tube of Pd should, when used as a cathode in the subject process, produce a flow of hydrinos into the inside of Pd tube. The deposited Sb layer should be capable of dumping its hydrinos very quickly and might not even become explosive. Such a device should produce lots of excess energy during electrolysis, hopefully without a large risk of explosion. The "problem" then is what to do with the manufactured hydrinos. An Sb layer (or even dopant) on a Pd barrier to a hydrino gathering system might be a hydrino factory that produces excess energy as a bonus. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 05:00:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j21Cwui9023561; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 05:00:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j21Cwr5o023534; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 04:58:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 04:58:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-22005321125824110 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Energy souces, costs, and recycling. Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 04:58:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8e187c0b37bb62cde9a4a84664346e4737c7233ee4b332ceb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.84.178 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58167 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII March 01,, 2005 Vortex, I see the price of oil has gone over fifty-one dollars a barrel recently and the faith in the Dollar further eroded internationally. Speculation and "irrational exuberance" of fear are large factors. About a year or more ago in the Chemical & Engineering News periodical, there was an interview and commentary article in its Business Section with Canadian industrial business executives. At the time, the Dollar was around 1.05 to an Euro, oil was around $38+ per barrel, and gasoline was around $1.35 per gallon. The U.S. economy was unsettled, and there was talk about the supply of fuel (mid east oil) reserves shrinking. The Canadians were involved in the "oil sands" mining business in Canada, not anywhere else. That's the country just north of us. No oceans in between. Canada has, in its oil sands, oil reserves matching, if not exceeding those of Saudi Arabia. And they only have to scoop it up at ground level. So Canada is happily mining, producing oil, and selling it in a petroleum market fixated primarily on mid east oil production. And the cost of production of that Canadian crude was where they could profit at seven ($7.00) US dollars per barrel! More recently in the Wall Street Journal there were several news articles on energy related matters. One item dealt with the increasing needs of the Canada to meet the Kyoto Protocol requirement to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. They were facing the prospect of buying greenhouse gas "credits" . What was happening was Canada's rapid raising of oil sands petroleum production and this required huge gas guzzling mining machinery and such to do this. Similar problem is arising in Australia with all the mining activities there. Then we come to the huge coal and untapped shale oil reserves in the U.S. We have so much coal that hundreds of burning coal veins (presumably spewing CO2) in abandoned mines are left alone. And we have oil shale up the kazoo but can't compete with oil sands. The other article was about the increasing investments and development of the tremendous natural gas field discovered in Quatar. The investments are to develop a Gas to Liquid (GTL) technology which converts natural gas to a clear liquid fuel that can/is be used in unmodified diesel engines. Europe uses diesel engines in half of their vehicles. The U.S. uses less than two percent. Diesels give 30% better mileage than gas and GTL fuel burns cleaner. The current break even cost for GTL is fourteen dollars ($14.00) per barrel. Also GTL fuel is stable and much easier to transport from Quatar than in cold liquid natural gas tanker ships. Also natural gas resources are spread over the world and are not OPEC controlled. The original GTL technology came from Nazi era Germany which lost its colonies after WW One and was "only" coal rich and oil poor. Later, South Africa further developed and "simplified" the GTL process by using natural gas rather than first going through the coal gasification process. The GTL process was looked into after WWII by U.S. but cheap ($3/bbl) mid east oil came on line. The GTL process, as described by WSJ, is interesting. Whatever the fuel source, natural gas in this instance, is first "combusted" to produce Carbon Monoxide, then mixed with Water (H2O) and Oxygen. This is then Cobalt catalyzed to produce a waxy petroleum product, put under high pressure (and heat?) "to break it into diesel and a smaller amount of other products, including motor oil." This reminds me of the hydrogenation process that also came along from Germany in the same era to produce among others, Margarine, the white solid, waxy, very cheap butter substitute made from vegetable oils.This was colored butter yellow manually each time with a food color "pill" in the U.S. due initially to the powerful dairy industry. Crisco is another such product. You can thank this process for all the"partially hydrogenated " oil products we consume today. I digress. I believe we can have a closed loop solution to the expanding fuel combustion, exhaust gas problem here. Carbon monoxide is a fuel combustion product, just as carbon dioxide is. And a GTL process can be used for waste carbon dioxide (& monoxide) to produce gas or liquid fuel and recycled. I realize there already exists that loop closing link in the green plants but our consuming activities are exceeding their capacities. Poking around reference texts into hydrogenation gave information as to what the WSJ reporter was talking about in reference to Quatar. The GTL process is basically the 1933 Fischer-Tropsch process (CO) and/or the 1912 Bergius process (coal). Catalysts used are not only Cobalt but also Nickel. And the clear fuel produced (among many) is: Kerosene. Diesel engines do burn kerosene I understand Perhaps cold fusion or nuclear power could provide the needed recycling heat energy needs. Of course the are other greenhouse gasses to worry about but CO2 "remediation" is the major concern. Why only "remediate", recycle. Nuclear power fits in here somewhere. Now with a cleaner conscious, we may continue and expand to use a carbon based fuel economy. : ) Or is this far fetched? -ak- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
March 01,, 2005
 
Vortex,
 
I see the price of oil has gone over fifty-one dollars a barrel recently and the faith in the Dollar further eroded internationally. Speculation and "irrational exuberance" of fear are large factors.
 
   About a year or more ago in the Chemical & Engineering News periodical, there was an interview and commentary article in its Business Section with Canadian industrial business executives. At the time, the Dollar was around 1.05 to an Euro, oil was around $38+ per barrel, and gasoline was around $1.35 per gallon. The U.S. economy was unsettled, and there was talk about the supply of fuel (mid east oil) reserves shrinking.
The Canadians were involved in the "oil sands" mining business in Canada, not anywhere else. That's the country just north of us. No oceans in between. Canada has, in its oil sands, oil reserves matching, if not exceeding those of Saudi Arabia. And they only have to scoop it up at ground level. So Canada is happily mining, producing oil, and selling it  in a petroleum market fixated primarily on mid east oil production. And the cost of production of that Canadian crude was where they could profit at seven ($7.00) US dollars per barrel!
   More recently in the Wall Street Journal there were several news articles on energy related matters. One item dealt with the increasing needs of the Canada to meet the Kyoto Protocol  requirement to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. They were facing the prospect of buying greenhouse gas "credits" . What was happening was Canada's rapid raising of oil sands petroleum production and this required huge gas guzzling mining machinery and such to do this. Similar problem is arising in Australia with all the mining activities there.
   Then we come to the huge coal and untapped shale oil reserves in the U.S. We have so much coal that hundreds of burning coal veins (presumably spewing CO2) in abandoned mines are left alone. And we have oil shale up the kazoo but can't compete with oil sands.
The other article was about the increasing investments and development of the tremendous natural gas field discovered in Quatar. The investments are to develop a Gas to Liquid (GTL)  technology which converts natural gas to a clear liquid fuel that can/is be used in unmodified diesel engines. Europe uses diesel engines in half of their vehicles. The U.S. uses less than two percent. Diesels give 30% better mileage than gas and GTL  fuel burns cleaner.
   The current break even cost for GTL is fourteen dollars ($14.00) per barrel. Also GTL  fuel is stable and much easier to transport from Quatar than in cold liquid natural gas tanker ships. Also natural gas resources are spread over the world and are not OPEC controlled.
   The original GTL technology came from Nazi era Germany which lost its colonies after WW One and was "only" coal rich and oil poor. Later, South Africa further developed and "simplified" the GTL process by using natural gas rather than first going through the coal gasification process. The GTL process was looked into after WWII by U.S. but cheap ($3/bbl) mid east oil came on line. 
   The GTL  process, as described by WSJ, is interesting. Whatever the fuel source, natural gas in this instance, is first "combusted"  to produce Carbon Monoxide, then mixed with Water (H2O) and Oxygen. This is then Cobalt catalyzed to produce a waxy petroleum product, put under high pressure (and heat?) "to break it into diesel and a smaller amount of other products, including motor oil." This reminds me of the hydrogenation process that also came along from Germany in the same era to produce among others, Margarine, the white solid, waxy, very cheap butter substitute made from vegetable oils.This was colored butter yellow manually each time with a food color "pill" in the U.S. due initially to the powerful dairy industry. Crisco is another such product. You can thank this process for all the"partially hydrogenated " oil products we consume today. I digress. 
   I believe we can have a closed loop solution to the expanding fuel  combustion, exhaust gas problem here. Carbon monoxide is a fuel combustion product, just as carbon dioxide is. And a GTL process can be used for waste carbon dioxide (& monoxide) to produce gas or  liquid fuel  and recycled. I realize there already exists that loop closing link in the green plants but our consuming activities are exceeding their capacities.
   Poking around reference texts into hydrogenation gave information as to what the WSJ reporter was talking about in reference to Quatar. The GTL process is basically the 1933 Fischer-Tropsch process (CO) and/or the  1912 Bergius process (coal). Catalysts used are not only Cobalt but also Nickel. And the clear fuel produced (among many) is: Kerosene. Diesel engines do burn kerosene I understand
   Perhaps cold fusion or nuclear power could provide the needed recycling heat energy needs. Of course the are other greenhouse gasses to worry about but CO2  "remediation" is the major concern. Why only "remediate", recycle. Nuclear power fits in here somewhere. Now with a cleaner conscious, we may continue and expand to use a carbon based fuel economy.  : )
Or is this far fetched?
 
-ak-
 
  
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 07:12:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j21FBEi9031166; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:12:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j21FB6AD031059; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:11:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:11:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005401c51e70$928fdf80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <4223516E.8090605@ix.netcom.com> <049f01c51dbc$84a9b9e0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <5u0821lrf7kudk7ndtdo2naahsckqv4c47@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:08:48 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58168 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk writes, >> If the claimed energy is actually 19600 cal/g, this is equal to 19600*121.76 = 2.38 x 10^6 cal/mole, which is too much to be real. >1) Maybe ballotechnic reactions (chemical reactions that occur on inner shell electrons). > It is about 103 eV / atom of Sb, which is indeed much more than one would get from any normal chemical reaction, but lies quite neatly in the "Mills ball park". However, antimony appears to be explosive without the necessity of hydrogen being present and it does not appear that Sb hydrides very well. Nor does the explosiveness require either an oxidation or reduction chemical reaction, presumably. If a halide is required for the polymorphic instability, then the net result of having it there is not for its oxidation potential as it is already bound, and even if not, the explosion release about 58 times energy than burning Antimony in Chlorine, if those old numbers could be trusted. Are we assuming that is where the problem lies? Old numbers which have not been replicated at least not publicly, even though they should have been? Perhaps something else is going on, as you will see at the end of this post. If the numbers could be trusted and this phase change (allotrope or polymorph) only works with a halide, then there are some inferences that can be made from a closer look at the electron structure. "Web Elements" http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Sb/econ.html has really improved their visualization capability with the addition of the Orbitron, but it requires some applets to be added to your browser. The shell structure (51 electrons) is 2.8.18.18.5 but as you can see from the visualizations this leaves some outer orbital electrons with more energy than some inner orbitals, not that unusual but perhaps that is how you get this unusual phase change where the density of the element can change so rapidly between the allotropes (or polymorphs). Perhaps the density shift in allotropes has the effect of being exactly resonant with a 4th shell electron being absent and this one is bound at ~103 eV or whatever. who knows? It has to be more than just the density change itself, because in the element tin, Sn, the allotrope change is much more severe, yet tin is not known to be explosive, is it? The point is, from limited modern data available to us, we do suspect that Sb is explosive without the necessity of either an oxidation or reduction chemical reaction. It would be nice to know if the explosiveness benefits from LN tempering, and why else would they do it? The explosiveness is not chemical per se, but it does involve the electron configuration. Hence we should call it supra-chemical or ballotechnic. Hasn't most of this research been classified? Why else would there be little of current interest on the internet? I suspect that if ballotechnic reactions are real, then they are classified. See what happens when you try to get this document about so-called "shock induced chemical reactions": http://www.osti.gov/bridge/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=437696 BTW good evidence does turn up in expense reports, which may have slipped through the cracks that someone is paying for R&D in this field, especially to one Yasuyuki Horie, Professor Emeritus of Civil Engineering, NCSU: Horie, Y. Modeling of Shock-Induced Chemical Reactions in Powder Mixtures, US Navy Horie, Y. Interactions of Shock Waves with Materials Having Engineered Reactive Microstructures, US Army Research Office Horie, Y. Modeling of Ballotechnic Material Response, Sandia National Laboratories Horie, Y. Modeling of Shock-Induced Inorganic Chemical Reactions, Georgia Institute of Technology Horie, Y. Modeling of Ballotechnic Reactions in Powder Mixtures, Aluminum Company of America Hmm... The DoE and DoD say this class of reaction does not exist, yet they keep funding the research, and denying LENR but not funding it .... very strange, and just one more reason why the lack of high level support for LENR research may have some of its rationale in cold-war holdover fear, no called terrorism fear. Perhaps they know a lot more about LENR then we think they do.... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 07:30:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j21FSgi9012054; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:30:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j21FSExd011626; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:28:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:28:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Sender: jack mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <42249609.1D7898B centurytel.net> Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 16:19:21 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: Re: Energy souces, costs, and recycling. References: <410-22005321125824110 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xak" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xak" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58169 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -ak- wrote: March 1, 2005 ``I see the price of oil has gone over fifty-one dollars a barrel recently and the faith in the Dollar further eroded internationally ... About a year or more ago in the Chemical & Engineering News ... The U.S. economy was unsettled, and there was talk about the supply of fuel (mid east oil) reserves SHRINKING ... The other article was about the increasing investments and development of the tremendous natural gas field discovered in Quatar. The investments are to develop a Gas to Liquid (GTL) technology which converts natural gas to a clear liquid fuel that can/is be used in unmodified diesel engines. Europe uses diesel engines in half of their vehicles. The U.S. uses less than two percent. Diesels give 30% better mileage than gas, and GTL fuel burns cleaner ... The GTL process is basically the 1933 Fischer-Tropsch process (CO) and/or the 1912 Bergius process (coal). Catalysts used are not only Cobalt but also Nickel. And the clear fuel produced (among many) is: Kerosene. Diesel engines do burn kerosene I understand. Perhaps cold fusion or nuclear power could provide the needed recycling heat energy needs. Of course the are OTHER GREENHOUSE GASSES TO WORRY ABOUT but CO2 "remediation" is the major concern ...'' [Jack's caps] Hi All, As you know, methanol is my favorite approach for breaking loose from the talons of terrorism, but kerosene would work just as well. The following article indicates that methane would be an almost unlimited source for either fuel. The article also indicates that there is enough methane for periodic "eruptions" sufficient to trigger interglacials: Jack Smith --------------------- ARTICLE from Harvard Magazine, March-April, 2005, By Erin O'Donnell http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/030573.html Hydrocarbon Heresy: Rocks into Gas [The cell employs two diamonds, each about three millimeters (roughly one-eighth-inch) high, which sit with their tips facing each other in hardened precision frames that are forced together, creating intense pressure in the small space between the tips. They compress a small metal plate that holds the sample. The device can generate pressures greater than those in the center of the earth (3.6 million atmospheres) The methane generation experiments use pressures in the 50-100,000 atmosphere range, corresponding to the earth's upper mantle.] ``Geologists have long believed that the world's supply of oil and natural gas came from the decay of primordial plant and animal matter, which, over the course of millions of years, turned into petroleum. But new research coauthored by Dudley Herschbach, Baird research professor of science and recipient of the 1986 Nobel Prize in chemistry, questions that thinking. Published last fall in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, the study describes how investigators combined three abiotic (non-living) materials -- water (H2O), limestone (CaCO3), and iron oxide (FeO) -- and crushed the mixture together with the same intense pressure found deep below the earth's surface. This process created methane (CH4), the major component of natural gas. Herschbach says this offers evidence, although as yet far from proof, for a maverick theory that much of the world's supply of so-called fossil fuels may not derive from the decay of dinosaur-era organisms after all. Herschbach became interested in the origins of petroleum hydrocarbons while reading A Well-Ordered Thing, a book about the nineteenth-century Russian chemist Dmitri Mendeleev, who developed the periodic table. Written by Michael Gordin '96, Ph.D. '01, a current Junior Fellow, the book mentions a theory long held by Russian and Ukrainian geologists: that petroleum comes from reactions of water with other abiotic materials, and then bubbles up toward the earth's surface. Intrigued, Herschbach read further, including The Deep, Hot Bio-sphere by the late Cornell astrophysicist Thomas Gold. An iconoclast, Gold saw merit in the Russian and Ukrainian view that petroleum has nonliving origins. He theorized that organic materials found in oil -- which most scientists took as a sign that petroleum comes from living things -- may simply be waste matter from microbial organisms that feed on the hydrocarbons generated deep in the earth as these flow upward ... The diamond anvil cell, developed at the Carnegie Institution, can create the same pressures found as far as 4,000 miles beneath the earth's surface ... Diamonds are an ideal material for such experiments, Herschbach explains. As one of the hardest substances on earth, they can withstand the tremendous force, and because they're transparent, scientists can use beams of light and X-rays to identify what's inside the cell without pulling the diamonds apart ... "The experiment showed it's easy to make methane," Herschbach says. The new findings may serve to corroborate other evidence, cited by Gold, that some of the earth's reservoirs of oil appear to refill as they're pumped out, suggesting that petroleum may be continually generated. This could have broad implications for petroleum production and consumption, and for our planet's ecology and economy ...'' From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 07:55:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j21Frli9028710; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:55:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j21FreAk028651; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:53:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:53:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:52:25 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58170 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 3:41 AM 2/28/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >The heat of combustion of H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole (18 >>grams) , or 3.000 calories per gram >> >>The 19,600 calories per gram released by Explosive Antimony is over 6.5 > >times this. > How does this compare to chemical explosives? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 08:11:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j21GApi9005165; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:10:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j21G9u7A004243; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:09:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:09:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050301160810.006b1dbc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 16:08:10 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58171 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:08 am 01-03-05 -0800, you wrote: >Robin van Spaandonk writes, > >>> If the claimed energy is actually 19600 cal/g, this is >equal to 19600*121.76 = 2.38 x 10^6 cal/mole, which is too >much to be real. > >>1) Maybe ballotechnic reactions (chemical reactions that >occur on inner shell electrons). > >> It is about 103 eV / atom of Sb, which is indeed much more >than one would get from any normal chemical reaction, but >lies quite neatly in the "Mills ball park". > > >However, antimony appears to be explosive without the >necessity of hydrogen being present and it does not appear >that Sb hydrides very well. > >Nor does the explosiveness require either an oxidation or >reduction chemical reaction, presumably. If a halide is >required for the polymorphic instability, then the net >result of having it there is not for its oxidation potential >as it is already bound, and even if not, the explosion >release about 58 times energy than burning Antimony in >Chlorine, if those old numbers could be trusted. Are we >assuming that is where the problem lies? Old numbers which >have not been replicated at least not publicly, even though >they should have been? Perhaps something else is going on, >as you will see at the end of this post. > >If the numbers could be trusted and this phase change >(allotrope or polymorph) only works with a halide, then >there are some inferences that can be made from a closer >look at the electron structure. "Web Elements" >http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Sb/econ.html >has really improved their visualization capability with the >addition of the Orbitron, but it requires some applets to be >added to your browser. > >The shell structure (51 electrons) is 2.8.18.18.5 but as you >can see from the visualizations this leaves some outer >orbital electrons with more energy than some inner orbitals, >not that unusual but perhaps that is how you get this >unusual phase change where the density of the element can >change so rapidly between the allotropes (or polymorphs). >Perhaps the density shift in allotropes has the effect of >being exactly resonant with a 4th shell electron being >absent and this one is bound at ~103 eV or whatever. who >knows? It has to be more than just the density change >itself, because in the element tin, Sn, the allotrope change >is much more severe, yet tin is not known to be explosive, >is it? > >The point is, from limited modern data available to us, we >do suspect that Sb is explosive without the necessity of >either an oxidation or reduction chemical reaction. It would >be nice to know if the explosiveness benefits from LN >tempering, and why else would they do it? The explosiveness >is not chemical per se, but it does involve the electron >configuration. Hence we should call it supra-chemical or >ballotechnic. Hasn't most of this research been classified? >Why else would there be little of current interest on the >internet? I suspect that if ballotechnic reactions are real, >then they are classified. See what happens when you try to >get this document about so-called "shock induced chemical >reactions": >http://www.osti.gov/bridge/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=437696 > >BTW good evidence does turn up in expense reports, which may >have slipped through the cracks that someone is paying for >R&D in this field, especially to one Yasuyuki Horie, >Professor Emeritus of Civil Engineering, NCSU: > >Horie, Y. Modeling of Shock-Induced Chemical Reactions in >Powder Mixtures, US Navy > >Horie, Y. Interactions of Shock Waves with Materials Having >Engineered Reactive Microstructures, US Army Research Office > >Horie, Y. Modeling of Ballotechnic Material Response, Sandia >National Laboratories > >Horie, Y. Modeling of Shock-Induced Inorganic Chemical >Reactions, Georgia Institute of Technology > >Horie, Y. Modeling of Ballotechnic Reactions in Powder >Mixtures, Aluminum Company of America > >Hmm... The DoE and DoD say this class of reaction does not >exist, yet they keep funding the research, and denying LENR >but not funding it .... very strange, and just one more >reason why the lack of high level support for LENR research >may have some of its rationale in cold-war holdover fear, no >called terrorism fear. > >Perhaps they know a lot more about LENR then we think they >do.... > >Jones Not knowing what "ballotechnic" meant exactly, I googled it and the first thing I came across was this. ================================================================= http://chemistry.about.com/cs/chemicalweapons/f/blredmercury.htm Personally, I find it plausible that mercury antimony oxide, as a low density (nonradioactive?) powder, may be of interest as a ballotechnic material. The high-density material seems unlikely. It would also seem unreasonably dangerous (to the maker) to use a ballotechnic material in a fusion device. One intriguing source mentions a liquid explosive, HgSbO, made by Du Pont laboratories and listed in the international chemical register as number 20720-76-7. Anyone care to look it up? ================================================================= I'm interested to see that Sb is mentioned in this article too. Cheers Frank Grimer I hope the MIB are monitoring all this. I wouldn't like to think that ragheads are discussing these things as freely as we are. ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 08:26:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j21GPpWZ020061; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:25:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j21GPmaD020020; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:25:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:25:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <2e3e6778-26af-48d5-aa48-8671db06085c> Message-ID: <009c01c51e03$13b632d0$3857ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <002801c51d1a$63407110$8a017841 xptower> <6.2.0.14.2.20050228155759.02b8c148@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: a cause celebre? Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:04:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58172 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: Harry Veeder wrote: Toast? no I don't think so. The Russians slapped Amercians in the face by putting a satellite and a man in orbit first. JR: Good point. MC: Taking a global view, it doesn't matter who commercializes CF or BLP first. In 20 years it won't matter. If China were to be that nation, it would take the pressure off the oil supply for the rest of the world. Once deployed, the fact cannot be hidden, any more than the first use of an A bomb. The only real "secret" was that it could be done, and after that it was only a matter of time and will that others did so also, as we know. As Jed pointed out Sputnik and the world's reaction gave von Braun the license to put together pieces he had prepared and did likewise, and then spurred the US to do what nobody else has done yet, land men on the moon and bring them home. Commercialization of CF or BLP by China or Japan will spur the US into drastic action. The race then will not be uneven, for both China and Japan have the technical resources and incentive to pursue the technology. Both are oil-poor, as is the US, in comparison to our need. Weeping and wailing over the export of US technical skill is short sighted. A century ago, if you were a "real" chemist, you studied in Germany. The US has not been self sufficient in resources since the mid-30s. Some here have lamented the shipment of US cement and steel to China support thier current boom -- it's exports, guys, and we get paid -- remember that US hunger for raw materials from the developing world is seen by some in those countries as selling their future and birthright to buy toys for the thugs that run the country. The manufacturing expertise using statistical quality control that was developed in the US during WW2 was ignored in satisfying the consumer hunger after the war. Deming took that knowledge to Japan and they showed what efficient manufacturing trechnology could do -- eventually shaking the US automobile industry out of its lethargy. That knowledge is now widely understood, even used in the US now. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 08:30:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j21GUCWZ022504; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:30:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j21GU3r3022443; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:30:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:30:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:30:06 -0900 To: "vortex-l" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Energy souces, costs, and recycling. Resent-Message-ID: <39F3m.A.IeF.IiJJCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58173 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:58 AM 3/1/5, Akira Kawasaki wrote: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > The GTL process, as described by WSJ, is interesting. Whatever the >fuel source, natural gas in this instance, is first "combusted" to >produce Carbon Monoxide, then mixed with Water (H2O) and Oxygen. This is >then Cobalt catalyzed to produce a waxy petroleum product, put under high >pressure (and heat?) "to break it into diesel and a smaller amount of >other products, including motor oil." This reminds me of the hydrogenation >process that also came along from Germany in the same era to produce among >others, Margarine, the white solid, waxy, very cheap butter substitute >made from vegetable oils.This was colored butter yellow manually each time >with a food color "pill" in the U.S. due initially to the powerful dairy >industry. Crisco is another such product. You can thank this process for >all the"partially hydrogenated " oil products we consume today. I digress. > > I believe we can have a closed loop solution to the expanding fuel >combustion, exhaust gas problem here. Carbon monoxide is a fuel combustion >product, just as carbon dioxide is. And a GTL process can be used for >waste carbon dioxide (& monoxide) to produce gas or liquid fuel and >recycled. I realize there already exists that loop closing link in the >green plants but our consuming activities are exceeding their capacities. > Poking around reference texts into hydrogenation gave information as to >what the WSJ reporter was talking about in reference to Quatar. The GTL >process is basically the 1933 Fischer-Tropsch process (CO) and/or the >1912 Bergius process (coal). Catalysts used are not only Cobalt but also >Nickel. And the clear fuel produced (among many) is: Kerosene. Diesel >engines do burn kerosene I understand > Perhaps cold fusion or nuclear power could provide the needed recycling >heat energy needs. Of course the are other greenhouse gasses to worry >about but CO2 "remediation" is the major concern. Why only "remediate", >recycle. Nuclear power fits in here somewhere. Now with a cleaner >conscious, we may continue and expand to use a carbon based fuel economy. >: ) >Or is this far fetched? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - end quote of Akira Kawasaki. The above approach may provide relief from the price of oil, but still ultimately is a process whereby mined carbon is burned and put into the atmosphere. One major problem is that recycling carbon from vehicles or even home heating units is probably impractical. Home heating might be converted to electricity however, and carbon based fuels only consumed at power plants where the carbon can be recycled. Another major problem is that carbon in the form of CO or CO2 must be cryogenically transported, and this makes recycling over long distances less desirable. The fundamental problem is a *source of energy* and if that source is hydrocarbon based then that carbon will ultimately end up in the atmosphere as CO2 unless the carbon is stripped from the hydrocarbon source and only the hydrogen used as fuel. Carbon in the form of coal can not be used in a CO2 emission free economy as far as I know. It appears to me that silicon based energy transport and storage is far more desirable because there is a practically unlimited supply of sand, SiO2 is a valuable end product, and recycling of SiO2 is much easier than recycling of CO or CO2 plus other products of carbon combustion. See: Silicon based fuels might even be burned directly in vehicles or homes which can comparatively easily recycle the silicon byproducts, which are essentially inert and are solids. It seems to me that energy transport over medium range land based trades is easily and cheaply handled by hydrogen pipeline, but may also be handled by high voltage DC transmission lines, which are much more easily and cheaply placed underground than AC transmission lines. If hydrogen is locally available, then recycling CO2 or CO at a local level might be accomplished in an energetically favorable way by converting it to methanol for storage. It may be far more favorable to convert hydrogen to ammonia for short term storage or even transportation. Massive amounts of ammonia are already transported around the world and in the US. Compound Energy to produce 1 g hydrogen -------- ------------------------------ Water 143 kJ Methane 18.75 kJ Ammonia 15.4 kJ The ability to produce ammonia is also significant in that is serves as a feedstock for fertilizer production and many other things. Since ammonia is valuable in its own right as a feedstock, and energetically valuable as well, the idea of producing ammonia in wind farms and shipping, piping, and storing as a liquid may not be totally impracticable. Using nitrogen instead of carbon in the transport and storage medium is superior in that the nitrogen need not be return shipped for recycling. It seems reasonable that Si and/or NH3 can be produced using nuclear, wind, solar, or various kinds of renewable energy sources, and then used for long range trades, and bulk electrical energy production. It may be reasonable that LN2 or liquefied air be produced in a local fashion for vehicle propulsion, or that hydrogen can be locally produced for vehicle powering via fuel cells or hydrogen combustion. Direct electricity generation by wind or solar could be backed by energy storage involving Si or NH3 related storage and generation facilities. DC power generation for long range underground transport may be energetically and economically favorable for some distances. Nuclear can continue to be used for electrical generation and possibly for direct hydrogen or NH3 production for energy storage or transportation, and fertilizer production. For intermediate energy transportation by ground, hydrogen can be piped directly. A carbon emission free global energy supply is seeming to be a very real possibility through only the application of existing technology. The cost of solar and wind energy production is rapidly declining, and will soon be economically feasible as our principle energy sources. Nuclear energy is already cost feasible, though some safety and political problems remain. A carbon emission free *global* energy supply, using only existing technology, is an incredibly wonderful possibility. Carbon recycling may indeed play a role in this. The development of new technologies, like an effective hydrogen storage medium, room temperature superconductors, or cold fusion, only enhance these possibilities. The principle missing ingredient is the political will to make it happen, or even to get things moving in a timely and effective way. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 10:27:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j21IPZMG026790; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:26:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j21IPSwg026728; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:25:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:25:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:25:13 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58174 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace writes: >You don't think a carbon anode will contaminate the cathode with carbon? How? By pieces breaking off and codepositing with the metal? Possible, I've codeposited insulators and conductors this way with some difficulty ( you saturate the electrolyte with the powdered material and stir vigorously ). I've used carbon anodes before without difficulty, but I agree that contamination is possible here. What really bothers me about carbon is that the anode reaction will liberate Cl or O, rather than a nice clean dissolution of the Sb. This will make a substantial difference in the voltage required to initiate the plating, thus overestimating the energy required to create the allotrope. >The energy input is not critical to know. It is the cathode deposit energy >density which is above chemical. If you should run electrolysis all year >to get a gram deposited that still is not necessarily meaningful. Maybe a >large part of the electrolysis energy is lost as heat somehow. Without >careful calorimetry you won't know exactly what energy went into the >cathode. It is the energy output per deposited gram number that is >suspect. I was under the assumption from reading the posts here that we can't even agree on the cathode reactions which form the allotrope; perhaps you can post what your numbers are for the faradic efficiency and deposition rate and see if others agree. My rationale for this experiment is my assumption that if extra energy is being released by the reaction, the first place to look is the input energy. If I find it takes as much energy to make the allotrope as is released ( minus chemical energy ) then we can probably move on... >As you imply, the thing that has to be done for replication is a very >difficult thing - measuring the heat produced in the explosion. Yup, you've got it. One wouldn't want one's bomb calorimeter to become simply a bomb. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 11:42:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j21JfEMG006020; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:42:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j21JeKxx005615; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:40:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:40:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050301143800.02bc7c70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:38:31 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Global Flyer live tracking page Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58175 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.virginatlanticglobalflyer.com/MissionControl/Tracking/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 13:10:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j21L8I4R015304; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:09:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j21L85SJ015230; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:08:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:08:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: "Vortex" Subject: Dermond Wind Turbine Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:07:09 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58176 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.re-focus.net/features/archive/julaug04/julaug04_full.html http://www.energy2004.ee.doe.gov/pdf/renew-3-dery.pdf -john From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 13:19:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j21LHp4R019957; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:19:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j21LHlWm019923; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:17:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:17:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c901c51ea3$ce058d20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Explosive tin? Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:15:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C6_01C51E60.BEEFAFC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58177 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C6_01C51E60.BEEFAFC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Probably the coolest thing (as in cryogenic coolness), that any = aging scientist could imagine (as proof of a certain adage) would be to = make a major prediction based on a pet theory and have it quickly = validated, to the surprise of everyone, including himself. That adage is = "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop = playing"... playing with ideas that is - as in the case of some of the = older pranksters who frequent this forum.=20 This validation may not happen anytime soon for anyone on vortex; = certainly the betting-odds against it ever happening are astronomical = ... But being no shrinking ultraviolet, and ever hopeful of finding an = easy route to capturing the enormous free-energy of ZPE, I am going to = toss out a long-shot but very detailed prediction anyway. The prediction involves the element tin. Tin is probably the most remarkable and oddest element in the periodic = table. Antimony may be way up there, but tin may be a better bet for = potential explosiveness, and (off-the-books) ballotechnic energy = potential. Like antimony, it was an element prized by alchemists, who = gave it the same symbol as Jupiter, the largest planet. No doubt but = that anyone trying this, and failing, will be labeled a neo-alchemist. = Hey, following in Newton's footsteps (probably the greatest genius of = all times) isn't too shabby.... he failed on this one too. But nowadays, = success will bring you much more reward than merely turning tin into = gold. Tin exists in three allotropic forms. Below 18=B0C, the stable form is = a-tin, or grey tin, with a diamond-like structure and a density of 5.765 = g/cc. The lattice constant a =3D 0.69 nm, which is ideal for this, and = the melting point is 230=B0C. It is a semiconductor and crumbly gray = *nonmetal.* From 18=B0C to 161=B0C, the stable form is =DF-tin, or white = tin, a metal of tetragonal crystal structure and a density of 7.2984, = once used to rust-proof cans. This is almost a 27% density variation across that 18=B0C marker ! Prediction: Highly particulated grey tin, aged at low temperature, can = possibly cohere ZPE energy as mass-gain and then release it with a large = exotherm of energy, about 100 times more kJ, pound for pound, than = gasoline burning in air. IF, that is, this pet theory can be extended in = a linear fashion beyond the shaky evidence of antimony and ice. Wow... = building a theory on a foundation of ice... now that takes some playful = chutzpah, no? The tin can be reused over and over. The energy comes from the = Casimir/ZPE realm, and ultimately from Dirac's sea. Moreover this is = technically a chemical reaction and non-nuclear, since it involves the = displacement of electrons, but that is to be accomplished by Casimir = forces and not by redox. This would of course open up a whole new branch = of science.... why be modest, now? The process would involve the very rapid heating of the cyro-tin, = preferably using a laser or electric arc. At a slow to moderate rate of = heating, the "potential mass gain" available at the cryogenic interface = will not take place and the potential excess mass in multiples of 6.8 eV = will revert back into reciprocal space and not be cohered. Each of the = 50 electrons of Sn can possibly gain 6.8 eV or more, hypothetically, = depending on how the transitory density loss is expressed, and given = enough cold-time (the "ageing"), and that maximum boost would never be = expected in a short cooling period. How fast the heating stage must be = for maximum coherence is not clear, either, but it probably will be the = equivalent of shock-wave rates of acceleration (or jerk). The electron = flux of an electric arc should be adequate. The best way to do this commercially that I can imagine now, would = involve a factory scale power plant, with efficient cryogenic equipment = using the Linde method (which is essentially a king-sized multi-staged = heat pump with a COP of about 4...and all the other equipment necessary = to create a slush of powdered tin in liquid argon, aged at far below = 18=B0C for several days or weeks prior to use. When squeezed through an = electrode of an electric arc, the Casimir interaction would be working = against the internal strain of allotropic compression (in order to = regain the higher density the normal way) which should provide as much = as 65,000 cal/g (based on the antimony explosive energy and the lesser = density variation there). If this is translated to the liquid argon and = then expanded through a turbine, 40% or more of the energy should be = captured, some of it recycled to the arc, the rest sold, and the exhaust = can be captured and reused. This would probably be better suited for = factory-scale than transportation-scale. No one has any idea what would = be the repercussions of this much ZPE being drained from one location. I have found absolutely no hint, in a few hours of goggling, that = anything like this has ever been tried or contemplated using tin. Robert = Forward developed the idea of mass gain at low temperature, and some of = his work was funded by NASA and never released. Finding the correct = "translation medium" for the effect is key - obviously if H2 and O2 = experience this kind of incredible density allotropy like tin does, we = might be on our way to Alpha Centauri now. How would one attempt to confirm the idea on a small scale? That would = likely require a fairly robust laser and a small amount of cryo-aged tin = being irradiated very quickly. This should provide soft x-rays to = document an unusual energy gain, and when using the CR-39 method, the = evidence is preserved better than any meter... if, that is, there is any = doubt after the flash of the explosion ;-). Jones ... the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, = often are the ones who do." =20 -- from "Think Different," an Apple Computer Ad ------=_NextPart_000_00C6_01C51E60.BEEFAFC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Probably the coolest thing <G> (as in cryogenic = coolness), that=20 any aging scientist could imagine (as proof of a certain adage) = would be to=20 make a major prediction based on a pet theory and have it quickly = validated, to=20 the surprise of everyone, including himself. That adage is  "We = don't stop=20 playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing"... = playing=20 with ideas that is - as in the case of some of the older pranksters = who=20 frequent this forum. 
 
This validation may not happen anytime soon for anyone on = vortex;=20 certainly the betting-odds against it ever happening are astronomical = ... But=20 being no shrinking ultraviolet, and ever hopeful of finding an easy = route to=20 capturing the enormous free-energy of ZPE, I am going to toss out a = long-shot=20 but very detailed prediction anyway.
 
The prediction involves the element tin.
 
Tin is probably the most remarkable and oddest element in the = periodic=20 table. Antimony may be way up there, but tin may be a better bet for = potential=20 explosiveness, and (off-the-books) ballotechnic = energy potential. Like=20 antimony, it was an element prized by alchemists, who gave it the = same=20 symbol as Jupiter, the largest planet. No doubt but that anyone trying = this, and=20 failing, will be labeled a neo-alchemist. Hey, following in Newton's = footsteps=20 (probably the greatest genius of all times) isn't too shabby.... he = failed=20 on this one too. But nowadays, success will bring you much more reward = than=20 merely turning tin into gold.
 
Tin exists in three allotropic forms. Below 18=B0C, the stable form = is α-tin,=20 or grey tin, with a diamond-like structure and a density of 5.765 g/cc. = The=20 lattice constant a =3D 0.69 nm, which is ideal for this, and the melting = point is=20 230=B0C. It is a semiconductor and crumbly gray *nonmetal.* From 18=B0C = to 161=B0C,=20 the stable form is β-tin, or white tin, a metal of tetragonal = crystal structure=20 and a density of 7.2984, once used to rust-proof cans.
 
This is almost a 27% density variation across that 18=B0C marker = !
 
Prediction: Highly particulated grey tin, aged at low temperature, = can=20 possibly cohere ZPE energy as mass-gain and then release it with a large = exotherm of energy, about 100 times more kJ, pound for pound, than = gasoline=20 burning in air. IF, that is, this pet theory can be extended = in a=20 linear fashion beyond the shaky evidence of antimony and ice. Wow... = building a=20 theory on a foundation of ice... now that takes some playful = chutzpah,=20 no?
 
The tin can be reused over and over. The energy comes from the = Casimir/ZPE=20 realm, and ultimately from Dirac's sea. Moreover this is technically a = chemical=20 reaction and non-nuclear, since it involves the displacement of = electrons, but=20 that is to be accomplished by Casimir forces and not by redox. This = would of=20 course open up a whole new branch of science.... why be modest, = now?
 
The process would involve the very rapid heating of the cyro-tin,=20 preferably using a laser or electric arc. At a slow to moderate rate of = heating,=20 the "potential mass gain" available at the cryogenic interface will not = take=20 place and the potential excess mass in multiples of 6.8 eV will revert = back into=20 reciprocal space and not be cohered. Each of the 50 electrons of Sn can = possibly=20 gain 6.8 eV or more, hypothetically, depending on how the transitory = density=20 loss is expressed, and given enough cold-time (the "ageing"), and that = maximum=20 boost would never be expected in a short cooling period. How fast = the=20 heating stage must be for maximum coherence is not clear, either, but it = probably will be the equivalent of shock-wave rates of acceleration (or = jerk).=20 The electron flux of an electric arc should be adequate.
 
The best way to do this commercially that I can imagine now,=20 would involve a factory scale power plant, with efficient cryogenic = equipment using the Linde method (which is essentially a king-sized = multi-staged=20 heat pump with a COP of about 4...and all the other equipment necessary=20 to create a slush of powdered tin in liquid argon, aged at far = below=20 18=B0C for several days or weeks prior to use.  When squeezed = through an=20 electrode of an electric arc, the Casimir interaction would be working = against=20 the internal strain of allotropic compression (in order to regain the = higher=20 density the normal way) which should provide as much as 65,000 cal/g = (based on=20 the antimony explosive energy and the lesser density variation = there). If=20 this is translated to the liquid argon and then expanded through a = turbine, 40%=20 or more of the energy should be captured, some of it recycled to = the arc,=20 the rest sold, and the exhaust can be captured and reused. This = would=20 probably be better suited for factory-scale than transportation-scale. = No one=20 has any idea what would be the repercussions of this much ZPE being = drained from=20 one location.
 
I have found absolutely no hint, in a few hours of goggling, that = anything=20 like this has ever been tried or contemplated using tin. Robert Forward=20 developed the idea of mass gain at low temperature, and some of his work = was=20 funded by NASA and never released. Finding the correct "translation = medium" for=20 the effect is key - obviously if H2 and O2 experience this kind of = incredible=20 density allotropy like tin does, we might be on our way to Alpha = Centauri=20 now.
 
How would one attempt to confirm the idea on a small = scale? That=20 would likely require a fairly robust laser and a small amount of = cryo-aged tin=20 being irradiated very quickly. This should provide soft x-rays to = document=20 an unusual energy gain, and when using the CR-39 method, the evidence is = preserved better than any meter... if, that is, there is any = doubt=20 after the flash of the explosion ;-).
 
Jones
 
... the people who are crazy enough to think they can change = the=20 world, often are the ones who do." 
    -- from "Think Different," an Apple = Computer=20 Ad
------=_NextPart_000_00C6_01C51E60.BEEFAFC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 13:38:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j21Lao4R028585; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:38:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j21LaioQ028532; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:36:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:36:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Incredible battery and TOE Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 08:35:16 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <007301c5184f$b65c1c20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <03e301c51867$93108a40$0958ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <025c01c51878$76f5f5a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <043901c518fe$dae4e180$0958ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <002101c51aa3$4217e1e0$9c7cccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <002101c51aa3$4217e1e0$9c7cccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j21LZK4R027918 Resent-Message-ID: <1gMf4B.A.s9G.rBOJCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58178 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:58:25 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Robin wrote: > >> In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:28:11 -0500: >> Hi, >> [snip] >> >factor in LENR. That may be so, but it is not useful. Mills has reported >> >seeing emission lines he associates with p = 7 hydrinos, and maybe p =16, >> >but I suspect the population is small. Mills has enough problems with the >> >technology he is studying without dissipating his efforts with CF, LENR >and >> >CANR. >> >> Far from dissipating his efforts, such an approach may just be his saving >grace. First, the average nuclear reaction is going to yield about 1000 >times the energy (~ 1 MeV) of his best average hydrino yield (i.e. ~1000 eV/ >hydrino). Second, the high energy ionising radiation likely to result from a >nuclear reaction can create thousands of catalysts ions from each nuclear >reaction. That may be just what is needed to close the gap between >commercial and non-commercial. The whole thing can still be a clean reactor, >if the primary nuclear reaction creates alpha particles. > >In the above paragraph, it is true that nuclear reactions (fusion, as in >LENR) produce more energy *per atom* than does BLP, but the problem in LENR >cells is for enough atoms to fuse; the necessary conditions are still very >obscure. In LENR cells this is true, however for a hydrino fusion reactor this is not at all obscure. If the hydrinos have nowhere to go, then eventually, they will *all* shrink to the point where they undergo fusion, and a "steady state" should be achievable. >High ionizing energy makes hot fusion dangerous, equipment >expensive, and not for domenstic use, and the NRC on your neck. It's not so much ionizing radiation produced during the reaction that makes hot fusion dangerous, as the free neutrons which make the containment radioactive. The free neutrons exist, because the methods employed by hot fusion mean that they need to use D-T fuel (which has the highest fusion cross section). A hydrino based fusion reactor need not necessarily produce any radioisotopes at all because it can use aneutronic fuels. Even if destroyed, it would simply stop working, and not be radioactive (with a bit of luck). (Careful choice of construction materials is mandatory). >It is a >feature of LENR that this does not occur. This you don't know for sure yet. They could be getting alphas inside the cathode, that don't get out. (Alphas only travel a few microns in solids, and not much farther in water). >In BLP's microwave reactors, the >catalyst gas is very throroughly ionized -- and safely --. True, but ionization by microwaves is too energy costly, unless it is only a small addition to a reactor that is almost self sustaining without the microwaves. >The probem is >getting the catalyst ions and the H atoms within reaction distance in the >low pressure conditions. Don't suggest high pressure, for there are >competing reactions. If one is careful, the "competing" reactions can actually contribute to the process instead of hindering it. An example is Sr + proton -> Sr+ + H the right hand side is both immediately a catalyst and a "ripe" hydrogen atom combined. Furthermore, the reverse reaction is far less likely, which in turn implies that this shrinkage reaction has no competition. I.e. Sr+ + H can only shrink or do nothing. (Which may be the reason that Mills' Sr catalyst worked so well). [snip] >Also don't think that Mills and his staff are stupid in >this matter. It is very complex. I have never thought them stupid. Just stubborn. [snip] >currently his main problem. IOW making the reaction self sustaining. >> [snip] > >Yes, that is part of the problem. You are confusing two matters. 1) There >are the reactions of H atoms with primary catalysts, producing hydrinos, and >2) reactions between hydrinos themselves, which can catalyze each other, in >which one hydrino goes to a lower state and the other to a higher state. >These happen in at about 1/1000 atmosphertic pressure as random encounters. >There may be ways to increase the density of these encounters, but I think >such are well beyond the present resources of BLP to develop. All that is necessary, is to keep them together longer, before they react with the walls of the containment vessel. I.e. you need a bigger reactor for starters. I have made other suggestions to Mills in private email. > >> >"authorities" as you well know. So if you are CEO of a potential partner >are >> >you going to sink big bucks into a project which may not scale up easily >and >> >may have serious problems, like requiring ultra pure reagents to work? >> >> Of course, if this is used as a path to fusion, then the fuel requirements >will be relatively speaking so low, that ultra-purity would be no problem. > >The "path to fusion" is spectulation generated within Vortex and HSG. In the >LENR plasma electrolysis experiments with light water and potassium >carbonate electrolyte, it is conceivable that BLP reactions occur between H >atoms and K+ and K+++ and O++ ions, all of which may exist there. Mills' >first experiments were an electrolytic cell using potassium carbonate and >light water. There is also evidence of nuclear activity in such cells by >reports of erosionof a tungsten cathode. Both may be happening, and it is >very interesting, and puzzling, for D is not used. > >There is much to be learned here, but controlling it all and commercial >development are a very long road. Granted. Nevertheless, commercial development has to wait at least until the process is self-sustaining, so the sooner that happens, the sooner commercialisation can commence. My point was simply that a fusion component has a good chance of bringing forward the point where it is self-sustaining. > >> However I doubt that ultra purity really is a problem in the first place. >In fact I suspect that quite the opposite is true, it may work better if its >dirtier (i.e. lots of different elements thrown in). > >I don't know for sure; I just used the pure reagents as an illustration of >possible surprises. But it definitely does not follow that contaminants are >good. I realise that the potential value of contaminants doesn't follow from the argument. That was an addition I made based upon other considerations. >When you have a mix of unknowns, you multiply the things that can go >wrong. ...or right. >We are dealing with a kind of chemistry, and when you mix ingredients >in chemistry, everything that can happen will happen ..which was my point. Some of those things might be useful. >and the jog of the >chemical engineer is to maximize what you want and filter out the rest. Indeed. [snip] >> It probably doesn't actually. The dependence of fusion time on separation >distance is so strong that hydrinos should be able to make a reality of >reactions such as Li7 + H -> 2 He4, and B11 + H -> 3 He4. Furthermore this >dependence is largely concentrated at the high end of the distance, i.e. one >doesn't need much reduction to get a large improvement. > >So you are proposing that hydrinos will carry protons to Li nuclei? How? You >have the same problem as in all LENR: how to get past the Coulomb barrier. Hydrinos are much smaller than H atoms, but just as heavy. A small essentially neutral, heavy particle (lots of momentum), will easily penetrate the few sparse electrons of a Li or B atom (see how neutrons behave). How close a hydrino can get depends on its radius. Those that are sufficiently shrunken, will get close enough to fuse (even at room temperature). In fact it's easier at low temperatures, than at high temperatures, because the particles "hang around" longer at low temperatures, and also have longer De Broglie wavelengths[1]. The only reason hot fusion uses high temperatures, is because that's the only way they can get close enough as a consequence of the Coulomb barrier. Hydrinos (essentially neutral) don't have that problem, and hydrinohydride (being negative) is actually attracted to nuclei. You can think of hydrinos as having very strong "electron shielding" (a current LENR theory). [1] Note that for neutrons the absorption cross section goes up, as the temperature goes down - same reasons. >You first have to produce lots of hydrinos. Granted. [snip] >> >water. The last time I talked to Mills, several years ago, he said he was >> >about a factor of 4 away from a closed loop. >> >> ...and a 1000 fold improvement from fusion would put him over the top by a >factor of 250. >> [snip] > >How? 1000/4 = 250? As mentioned above, if they can't escape, then eventually all hydrinos in a continuously working reactor must fuse, so the factor 1000 ends up applying to all of them. However it may take a long time to reach the steady state situation (possibly years), but once it is achieved, it should be possible to stop feeding in microwaves, and simply replenish fuel as it is used (very slowly). Then it may continue to operate for decades (or until it breaks down). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 16:04:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2202gTm021320; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:04:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2202blO021251; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:02:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:02:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:01:31 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Resent-Message-ID: <1UVAD.A.4LF.bKQJCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58179 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:04 PM 3/1/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 28 Feb 2005 >03:41:44 -0600: >Hi, >[snip] >>Way below the 82 Kilojoule per gram of Explosive Antimony that Gore >>reported in >>1855. >[snip] >This would actually make a lot more sense, if someone made a >mistake somewhere along the way, and it were 82 kJ/mol, rather >than per gram. You may be on the right track about this. If you check the reference: (a URL given in the quote appended below) about halfway down the html page, in the paragraph "Allotropic modifications..." quoted partially below, you can see that 19.6 cal per gram is produced by the allotropic conversion, which at an atomic weight of 121.6 for Sb gives only 2383 cal/mol, or 9979 J/mol, or about 10 kJ/mol, a fairly nominal chemical energy density. NOTE THAT THE DECIMAL POINT IN THE 19.6 CAL IS HARD TO READ IN THE SCAN. Codeposited hydrogen may be in atomic form. Consider the reaction H + H -> H2 + (436 kJ/mol = 104,000 cal/mol). That's 218 kJ/mol of H. Considerable energy has to be subtracted from this for the ionic bond of adsorbed H2 though. Given H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole (18 grams), *if* the freed H2 is converted to water, that's 54,000 calories per mole of H2 freed. H2 is only 2 grams per mole, thus an additional 27,000 cal/mol of H, or 113 kJ/mol of H is obtained for that H which finds oxygen. Some oxygen may be available in the form of animony oxide or included H2O2. The 10 kJ/mol is small compared to either 218 kJ/mol of H or 113 kJ/mol of H. At 3:41 AM 2/28/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: [anip] >After going through about every possible exothermic chemical reaction that >are orders of magnitude below what Gore reported, I would be surprised at >any explanation other than CANR, Frank. > >http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/exant.html > >http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/Sb.html > > >Gore (1855) found that if a current of electricity is passed through a >solution of antimony trichloride >in hydrochloric acid---using an antimony anode, and a platinum >cathode---an amorphous powder >of specific gravity of 5.78 is deposited on the cathode. The cathode has >the appearance of a smooth >polished graphite rod. The deposit appears to be solid solution of >antimony trichloride in metastable alpha-antimony. >If this deposit be rubbed or scratched, an explosion occurs > >The explosion is attended by the allotropic transformation of then >metastable or alpha-form of >antimony into the stable beta-form or the rhombohedral variety, at the >same time the temperature rises to >about 250 degrees C, and 19,600 calories of heat are evolved per gram of >antimony. > >Clouds of antimony trichloride are given off at the same time. >Hence the term Explosive Antimony is given to a solid solution( 4 to 12 >percent ) >of the trihalide in alpha-antimony." > >The heat of combustion of H2 + 1/2 O2 is 54,000 calories per mole (18 >grams) , or 3.000 calories per gram > >The 19,600 calories per gram released by Explosive Antimony is over 6.5 >times this. [snip] Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 16:04:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2202lTm021393; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:04:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2202htc021329; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:02:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:02:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:01:36 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58180 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:14 AM 2/28/5, Edmund Storms wrote: >Horace, I would like to inject a little chemistry here, because if the >energy claimed is real, the claims are amazing. > >First, when SbCl3 reacts with water, it forms SbO+, H+ and Cl-. Upon >electrolysis, the SbO+ deposits on the cathode where it is reduced to Sb >metal by reacting with the hydrogen activity generated there. No Cl- is >expected to be present in this deposit. Even if some SbCl2+ were to >deposit, it would be quickly reduced to Sb metal by reaction with >hydrogen. So, where does the claimed SbCl3 come from? > >If the claimed energy is actually 19600 cal/g, this is equal to >19600*121.76 = 2.38 x 10^6 cal/mole, which is too much to be real. Unfortunately this appears to be true. The 19600 cal/g may be a bit high. See other post I just made in response to Robin van Spaandonk (second response to his post.) > >So we have two anomalies, the presence of Cl and too much energy. Does >anyone care to speculate that the Cl results from fission of Sb? > >Regards, >Ed No need to speculate. Check the article: which indicates that 4 to 12 percent of the allotropic deposit is in chloride form. It further seems to indicate that this small percent is the only source of the trihallide upon explosion. Apparently not all the SbO+ is reduced when the allotrope is deposited. The importance of this to the authors of the above ref. and: seems to be in regards to the toxicity of the small percent of halides released by the explosion and not their signifcance in the energy production. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 16:11:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2209ZTm026238; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:10:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2209VGg026213; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:09:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:09:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:08:29 -0900 To: From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58181 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:25 PM 3/1/5, Keith Nagel wrote: >Horace writes: >>You don't think a carbon anode will contaminate the cathode with carbon? > >How? By pieces breaking off and codepositing with the metal? >Possible, I've codeposited insulators and conductors this way >with some difficulty ( you saturate the electrolyte with the >powdered material and stir vigorously ). I've used carbon >anodes before without difficulty, but I agree that contamination >is possible here. What really bothers me about carbon >is that the anode reaction will liberate Cl or O, rather >than a nice clean dissolution of the Sb. This will make >a substantial difference in the voltage required to initiate >the plating, thus overestimating the energy required to >create the allotrope. > >>The energy input is not critical to know. It is the cathode deposit energy >>density which is above chemical. If you should run electrolysis all year >>to get a gram deposited that still is not necessarily meaningful. Maybe a >>large part of the electrolysis energy is lost as heat somehow. Without >>careful calorimetry you won't know exactly what energy went into the >>cathode. It is the energy output per deposited gram number that is >>suspect. > >I was under the assumption from reading the posts here that >we can't even agree on the cathode reactions which form the allotrope; >perhaps you can post what your numbers are for the faradic efficiency >and deposition rate and see if others agree. No need. *No chemical reaction* will account for over 100 eV per atom. > >My rationale for this experiment is my assumption that if extra >energy is being released by the reaction, the first place to >look is the input energy. If I find it takes as much energy to >make the allotrope as is released ( minus chemical energy ) then >we can probably move on... Well, if the energy *is* being provided by the electolysis it has to be over 100 eV per atom and that would be a lot of energy. Calorimetry would be required to make sure that much energy wasn't being dumped as waste heat somewhere. As it turns out, maybe this issue is now moot. >>As you imply, the thing that has to be done for replication is a very >>difficult thing - measuring the heat produced in the explosion. > >Yup, you've got it. One wouldn't want one's bomb calorimeter to >become simply a bomb. Bombs away! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 17:58:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j221vOTm009795; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:58:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j221vIpA009762; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:57:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:57:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050302015552.0068cdf4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 01:55:52 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Explosive tin? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58182 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:24 pm on Saint David's day, 2005, Jones wrote: > Probably the coolest thing (as in cryogenic > coolness), that any aging scientist could > imagine (as proof of a certain adage) > would be to make a major prediction based on a > pet theory and have it quickly validated, to > the surprise of everyone, including himself. > That adage is, > ------------------------------------------- > "We don't stop playing because we grow old; > we grow old because we stop playing"... > ------------------------------------------- > playing with ideas that is - as in the case > of some of the older pranksters who frequent > this forum. > This validation may not happen anytime soon > for anyone on Vortex; certainly the betting-odds > against it ever happening are astronomical... You mean you haven't cottoned on yet to who we are? You haven't realised that we are the Wise Men from the West. Your camel must have got the hump from too much desert sun. ;-) Since my name's Frank, I must be Caspar [frankin' sense, geddit ;-) ]. The Queen's ring is made out of Welsh Gold mined at Clogau St David's in Bontddu so you are obviously Melchior. And as for Balthazar, well, I 'spect we'll know 'im when we see 'im. And I thought you claimed to be up on all this mystic stuff! You do disappoint me, Jones, I must say. As for betting odds, if they are "astronomical..." then all we need is a very small wager for a very large return. Roll on Christmas 8-) Cheers Frank ================================ at ille respondens ait eis facto vespere dicitis serenum erit rubicundum est enim caelum et mane hodie tempestas rutilat enim triste caelum faciem ergo caeli diiudicare nostis signa autem temporum... ================================ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 22:00:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j225whBA010209; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:00:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j225wdIA010177; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:58:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:58:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF455 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.c om> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF455 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.c om> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:57:25 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Correa, etc. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1102379438==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58183 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --============_-1102379438==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > Has anybody replicated any of Correa's PAGD >overunity claims? I got a vacuum pump and other gear in hopes of >building something > that apparently nobody is pursuing. (???) > > On a separate note, I just got done reading >"Confessions of an Economic Hitman". It is an astounding book. > I have little doubt that anyone who stands in the >way of our oil based economic order could be killed. If you have >serious > free energy findings, please be careful. You >could end up like Mallove , whatever his flaws. A man who has not found a cause which he is willing to die for, has yet to find a reason for living. Paraphrase of Martin Luther King Jr. --============_-1102379438==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: Correa, etc.
                  Has anybody replicated any of Correa's PAGD overunity claims?  I got a vacuum pump and other gear in hopes of building something
                  that apparently nobody is pursuing. (???)
 
                  On a separate note,  I just got done reading "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". It is an astounding book.
                  I have little doubt that anyone who stands in the way of our oil based economic order could be killed.  If you have serious
                  free energy findings, please be careful.  You could end up like Mallove , whatever his flaws.

A man who has not found a cause which he is willing to die for, has yet to find a reason for living.

Paraphrase of Martin Luther King Jr.
--============_-1102379438==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 22:16:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j226EjBA018408; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:16:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j226Eec6018321; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:14:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:14:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 01:14:27 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <5hQSaD.A.CeE.PnVJCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58184 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Horace, You write: >NOTE THAT THE DECIMAL POINT IN THE 19.6 CAL IS HARD TO READ IN THE SCAN. Oh come on, it's very clear and if the type face is confusing look a few lines above for the same notation ( specific gravity 5.3 ). I'm more inclined to think that the author wrote 19.6 calories and the typesetter transcribed incorrectly as 19.6 Cals. x1000 less energy would make this not as exciting. Otherwise, I see your point about the 100eV/atom. 1/10th an eV sounds more reasonable for phase change, and could be absorbed during the plating up process. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 1 22:50:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j226mmBA003126; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:50:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j226mf3L002993; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:48:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:48:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: "Vortex" Subject: Solid oxide fuel cells (SOFCs) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 00:48:36 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58185 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.nanodynamics.com/ndEnergy.asp -john From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 00:27:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j228RABA018033; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 00:27:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j228R4Io017973; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 00:27:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 00:27:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:27:11 -0900 To: From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58186 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:14 AM 3/2/5, Keith Nagel wrote: >Hey Horace, > >You write: >>NOTE THAT THE DECIMAL POINT IN THE 19.6 CAL IS HARD TO READ IN THE SCAN. > >Oh come on, it's very clear and if the type face is confusing look >a few lines above for the same notation ( specific gravity 5.3 ). Well, that depends on the quality of your monitor. > >I'm more inclined to think that the author wrote 19.6 calories and the >typesetter transcribed incorrectly as 19.6 Cals. x1000 less >energy would make this not as exciting. Not sure what you mean here. There was no "x 1000" notation used that I saw. It is strange that Cals. is capitalized though. You don't suppose this capitalization is intended to mean dietary calories, i.e. kilocalories? This seems inappropriate for a thermodynamic study. > >Otherwise, I see your point about the 100eV/atom. 1/10th an eV >sounds more reasonable for phase change, and could be absorbed during >the plating up process. I notice a number of references question the existence of actual Sb allotropes. The electrochmically deposited stuff may be just a mixture of Sb, SbCl3, SbO, and H or H2, etc., assuming not all the SBO+ is reduced, and some of the SbCl3 or some related and similar ion stays in solution. The H and SbO (or some similar compounds) would have to be physically separated in the amorphous black mixture, but a "rubbing" would bring them in contact and start the explosion. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 03:49:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22Bn5BA006139; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 03:49:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22Bn2ia006118; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 03:49:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 03:49:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050302114851.0068bda4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:48:51 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Correa, etc. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58187 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:05 pm Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Thomas Malloy wrote: > On a separate note, I just got done reading "Confessions > of an Economic Hitman". It is an astounding book. > I have little doubt that anyone who stands in the > way of our oil based economic order could be killed. > If you have serious free energy findings, please be > careful. You could end up like Mallove, .... Well, I always wear my scapular so I'm alright, Jack [unless they catch me in the bath of course - but they wont have many opportunities for that ;-) ]. Anyway, if you shed your blood for Truth, you get a "Get out of jail free" card and go straight to heaven without having to do your purgatory - so why worry! 8-) And by the time they wake up to the significance of any fundamental discovery, it'll be all over the internet. You have absolutely no idea how incredibly stupid these people are. To give you an example, consider this extract from a memo I wrote to my Director after escaping from the Spanish Inquisitorial clutches of the "Expert Panel" (allegedly) charged with scrutinizing all ten way-out papers I had written in the course of my previous career. ****************************************************** USE OF PROBABILITY METHODS IN ENGINEERING In the second paragraph on page 9 of the Expert Panel Report the distinguished experts claim that I am, "wrong in that the numbers of 2's -> 1/6 when N -> infinity and does not tend to zero". If I really had claimed that for N spins of a dice the number of 2's that come up tends to zero and does not tend to 1/6, I would have not merely been wrong. I would have been grossly incompetent. What I actually wrote was this:- =========================================================== ".... however many trials I make there is no guarantee that the percentage of 2's will be exactly 1/6." =========================================================== So that things will be crystal clear and to eliminate any possible misunderstanding, let me elaborate precisely what I mean by that statement. If I spin the dice six hundred times there is no guarantee that I will get exactly one hundred 2's (one hundred being of course. one sixth of six hundred as I'm sure the Expert Panel will concede). I might get ninety eight 2's or ninety seven 2's or one hundred and three 2's, for example. I might even get one hundred 2's but. as I've said, there is no guarantee. If I spin the dice six million times there is no guarantee that I will get exactly one million 2's. Of course it is possible, but it isn't very likely. It is considerably less likely than my chance of getting one hundred 2's when I spin the dice six hundred times. If I spin the dice six billion.... but I can't imagine that I need to elaborate any further. Surely, the next sentence of my note will now be perfectly clear. It continues on from the previous sentence given above as follows:- ============================================================= "On the contrary. if I make 6N trials where N is a very large integer, even though the fraction of 2's could be 1/6, the probability of this is small and tends to zero as N tends to infinity ." ============================================================= Weren't the Expert Panel curious as to why I should want to make 6N trials where N is an integer rather than simply N trials? Isn't the reason perfectly plain? Namely, unless the number of trials is divisible by 6 then the number of 2s can never be 1/6th? Besides being accused of being wrong, I was also accused of being repetitive. It seems to me I was not repetitive enough. Perhaps I should have assumed that people's short term memory wasn't sufficient for them to carry over the word "exactly" from one sentence to the next, and I should have repeated it. If I had been writing for my mother (aged 95) I would have done. As for the accusation of being trivial I fear that, on the contrary, I might have been too profound. I must say, I do applaud the Expert Panel's commitment to intellectual freedom of expression in proposing that someone who believes that in a long run of dice throws the number of times that 2 comes up tends to zero. should be allowed 15 weeks to write up his ideas on possible failure of a nuclear reactor. I fear I would be far less liberal. I would ask him along to my office and say very kindly. "Look here Frank. the management have been having a little talk. We feel that you've been in research non-stop for 36 years and really deserve. a jolly good rest so that you can pursue your hobbies and spend some time with your 14 grandchildren. We don't have any voluntary premature retirement vacancies at present. but we do have discretion and we feel your case is rather special. How about it? Interested?" And if I had been a member of the Expert Panel and asked to question someone who believed that in a long run of dice throws the number of times that 2s comes up tends to zero I would have been quite fascinated. What could he possibly think the other five numbers on the dice would tend to. After all, someone who believes that materials are held together from the outside and not from the inside might believe anything, might he not! Perhaps he would have an obsession with lucky prime 3 and think that in a long series of throws three would dominate number X and drive him out of office. Perhaps he is a religious nut who believes that a long series of throws would summon up the devil and result in an interminable sequence of 666's, the sign of the beast. I'm very grateful to the Panel Secretary for not drawing the Panel's attention to this total misunderstanding {which I'm sure he must have spotted) since it serves to illustrate a important psychological principle, The error is unlikely to have arisen from simple carelessness. The Expert Panel's Report is only 13 pages long and will obviously have been read very thoroughly by all three distinguished experts who have all signed it at the bottom. The Fellow of the Royal Society has a commendable admiration for accuracy to nine places of decimals (see paragraph 2 on page 5 of the Expert Panel Report) so the probability of him missing an inaccuracy must be very low. The Senior Official from the Nuclear Industry Inspectorate which is charged with the gravest imaginable responsibility for protecting the public from a nuclear catastrophe will no doubt have meticulously checked and double checked every syllable. So the probability of him missing an inaccuracy must be extremely low. The University Professor....... ? Well it's true that University Professors do have a reputation for being absent minded but I seem to remember a saying from when I was at college which ran, "Every student wants to prove the professor wrong" and since in my experience they very rarely managed it, I will assume that the probability of him missing an inaccuracy is fairly low. What about interactions? It can safely be assumed that the three distinguished experts are all sufficiently independent not to succumb to the herd instinct so I can multiply the probabilities together and claim that the probability of the group of three missing an inaccuracy is, fairly, very, extremely low, Since this is no higher, say, than the probability of three responsible professional nuclear engineers carrying out an experiment on a reactor which leads to its catastrophic failure, it is a probability that can be neglected. But since the inaccuracy cannot be ascribed to carelessness to what can it be ascribed ? It can be ascribed to the psychological tendency to see what we expect to see rather than see what is actually there. A good example of this is given in Fig.l. It is a quite genuine cover, proof read at various stages in its production by the Print Unit of Sheffield University and yet the error was missed by all who saw it until it was too late and it was widely distributed. It is a fine example of conceptually driven processing at work, dictating what is 'seen', in this case at the expense of what is really there. People often see what they expect to see, the stronger the expectation the more marked the effect. When judging work professing quite unacceptable beliefs then the expectation of finding gross errors must be very high indeed. Now the corollary of seeing what is not there is not seeing what is there. As an example of this inverse perceptual error consider the following popular psychological demonstration. If the piece of text within the triangle in Fig. 2 is cut out.. pasted on a piece of card and shown to a series of experimental subjects, the more literate the better, then the following effect is generally observed...... ****************************************************** And why did they misquote me in their final report? Was it accidental? Not on your nelly. They knew damn well what I'd written 'cos Clayton and I spent ages trying to convince one idiot he was wrong whilst the other two maintained a cowardly embarrased silence. They deliberately misquoted what I said cos they knew that if they didn't, then in the event that the Hartlepool AGR did go up the spout, (albeit unlikely, though not as unlikely as they imagine) someone would pull the file from the archives and discover what idiots had been appointed to the expert panel. You don't want to be scared of people like that! As the the good book says, -> -> -> -> -> -> -> -> -> -> -> -> -> -> -> "And I say to you, my friends: Be not afraid of them who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. But I will shew you whom you shall fear: Fear ye him who, after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell. Yea, I say to you: Fear him." -> -> -> -> -> -> -> -> -> -> -> -> -> -> -> Cheers, 8-) Frank Grimer _______________________________________________________________ If you want to see a complete scan of the above document, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blazelabs/ then go to the "Files" section and open the folder titled "memo". If you are not a member you will have to register but you can always "unregister" once you've read the file. _______________________________________________________________ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 05:49:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22DnBBA015875; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 05:49:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22Dn7a5015847; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 05:49:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 05:49:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=VDx0THmSmuS16uqO5N7OoIDz+vK9I6F1VNOZMc+c3PbL9kxjo9RACBtuvpo8a6yr; Message-ID: <410-22005332124827480 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:48:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a03fb084caa0b6ab4f714867a9a51f48350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.169 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58188 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This thorough treatment (1919) of Antimony by Chung Yu Wang in Europe, nails down the heat of phase change at "20 to 21 calories" (if I interpret it correctly). This is in conflict with G. Gore's 1858 data where someone must have slipped up on his "19.6 Calorie" figure. This apparent error is parroted in a General Chemistry text: Nebergall - Schmitt, Indiana University, CopyRight 1959, by D.C. Heath and Company that claimed "19,600 calories per gram" in the Explosive Antimony transition. My 1960s set of McGraw-Hill, Encyclopedia of Science and Technology also state 20 calories per gram for the "Allotrope" transition. This pdf is 225 pages long, and well worth the read, It only took my system (28.8 kbps & 400MHz processor) about an hour to bring it all up. http://sciencemadness.destructve.com/antimony.pdf Jones the "Tin Man" Beene can do this while he is getting oiled, before confronting the Wizard of Alaska hiding behind that curtain. :-) Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

This thorough treatment (1919) of Antimony by Chung Yu Wang in Europe, nails
down the heat of phase change at "20  to 21 calories" (if I interpret it correctly).
 
This is in conflict with G. Gore's 1858 data where someone must have slipped
up on his "19.6 Calorie" figure.  This apparent error is parroted in a General Chemistry
text: Nebergall - Schmitt, Indiana University, CopyRight 1959, by D.C. Heath and Company
that claimed "19,600 calories per gram" in the Explosive Antimony transition.
 
My 1960s set of  McGraw-Hill, Encyclopedia of Science and Technology also
state 20 calories per gram for the "Allotrope" transition.
 
This pdf is 225 pages long, and well worth the read, It only took
my system (28.8 kbps & 400MHz processor) about an hour to bring it all up. 
 
 
 
Jones the "Tin Man" Beene can do this while he is getting oiled,
before confronting the Wizard of Alaska hiding behind that curtain.   :-)
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 06:29:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22ET2BA031681; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:29:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22ESwlC031619; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:28:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:28:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 05:29:09 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Resent-Message-ID: <0iM2DB.A.7tH.o2cJCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58189 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:48 AM 3/2/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: >This thorough treatment (1919) of Antimony by Chung Yu Wang in Europe, nails >down the heat of phase change at "20 to 21 calories" (if I interpret it >correctly). > >This is in conflict with G. Gore's 1858 data where someone must have slipped >up on his "19.6 Calorie" figure. This apparent error is parroted in a >General Chemistry >text: Nebergall - Schmitt, Indiana University, CopyRight 1959, by D.C. >Heath and Company >that claimed "19,600 calories per gram" in the Explosive Antimony transition. > >My 1960s set of McGraw-Hill, Encyclopedia of Science and Technology also >state 20 calories per gram for the "Allotrope" transition. > >This pdf is 225 pages long, and well worth the read, It only took >my system (28.8 kbps & 400MHz processor) about an hour to bring it all up. > > >http://sciencemadness.destructve.com/antimony.pdf I'm glad you got that nailed down, though I am disappointed it is so certain the free energy is not there. I was about to suggest doing the "burn" calorimetry in water, where it is stable at room temperature, by gradually raising the temperature to 70 deg. C where the allotrope is said to "fizz" instead of explode. > >Jones the "Tin Man" Beene can do this while he is getting oiled, >before confronting the Wizard of Alaska hiding behind that curtain. :-) Ignore that man behind the curtain! It's the fault of the Wizard of Oz (Robin van Spaandonk). 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 06:34:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22EXsBA001476; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:33:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22EXnFX001447; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:33:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:33:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302093044.02a0ff28 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 09:33:40 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Article about Wikipedia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58190 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is important. This encyclopedia now has 500,000 articles, compared to Britannica's 80,000. See: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.03/wiki.html?tw=wn_tophead_4 I should make some corrections & additions to their article about cold fusion. Ed Storms should probably review it, too. It is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 06:49:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22EnHBA011077; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:49:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22En4U5011011; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:49:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:49:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Article about Wikipedia Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:50:27 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302093044.02a0ff28 pop.mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58191 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You must be filtering my messages... 8^) -----Original Message----- From: John Steck [mailto:johnsteck tetrahelix.com] Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 2:28 PM To: Vortex Subject: Wikipedia Vorts, My apologies if this isn't new to everyone, but just stumbled across Wikipedia. It's an open source encyclopedia project. Anyone and everyone is invited to contribute and edit sections. It's an honor system that relies on volunteer subject matter champions to maintain sections they are most interested in. There is a nice article about it in the current issue of Wired magazine (March 2005). Since we have our fair share of 'experts' on this list, this might be something many here might want to actively participate in. Interestingly enough, there seems to be no restrictions on what you can contribute. You can publish a whole category if you want. This is what they have for "Cold Fusion": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion -john -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 8:34 AM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Article about Wikipedia This is important. This encyclopedia now has 500,000 articles, compared to Britannica's 80,000. See: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.03/wiki.html?tw=wn_tophead_4 I should make some corrections & additions to their article about cold fusion. Ed Storms should probably review it, too. It is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion - Jed -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.5 - Release Date: 05/03/01 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 06:57:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22EvABA014877; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:57:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22Ev7fc014831; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:57:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:57:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302095347.02bb10b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 09:56:57 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Article about Wikipedia In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302093044.02a0ff28 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58192 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Steck wrote: >You must be filtering my messages... 8^) No, I was aware of that. The URL I listed is an article in Wired magazine about Wikipedia. I have been aware of their cold fusion article for some time, because it has a link to LENR-CANR.org, and I see people visiting from it from time to time. The cold fusion article is not good. It needs extensive revisions. For example, it says: "Energy source vs power store While the output power is higher than the input power during the power burst, the power balance over the whole experiment does not show significant imbalances. Since the mechanism under the power burst is not known, one cannot say whether energy is really produced, or simply stored during the early stages of the experiment (loading of deuterium in the Palladium cathode) for later release during the power burst." As the readers here surely realize, this is nonsense. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 07:49:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22FnLBA016363; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 07:49:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22FnJxS016342; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 07:49:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 07:49:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:50:31 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58193 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace writes: >Not sure what you mean here. There was no "x 1000" notation used that I >saw. It is strange that Cals. is capitalized though. You don't suppose >this capitalization is intended to mean dietary calories, i.e. >kilocalories? This seems inappropriate for a thermodynamic study. Yes, that is exactly my point, Cal is different from cal. Not that a typesetter would know that, and I just read the capital letter and multiplied by 1000 ( as did everyone else here, included some of the authors of those ref's we were passing around ). This is my favorite example of confusing physics nomenclature, BTW. Better even than gravitomagnetics which has nothing to do with magnetism (grin). It look like from reading the morning mail that Fred may have found better refs with the correct value, which ( using your superior nomenclature ) puts it at 1/10th eV/atom. >I notice a number of references question the existence of actual Sb >allotropes. The electrochmically deposited stuff may be just a mixture of >Sb, SbCl3, SbO, and H or H2, etc., assuming not all the SBO+ is reduced, >and some of the SbCl3 or some related and similar ion stays in solution. >The H and SbO (or some similar compounds) would have to be physically >separated in the amorphous black mixture, but a "rubbing" would bring them >in contact and start the explosion. Yeah, I started to get into this last night, is the exothermic reaction from the phase change, the coming out of solid solution of the halide, or both??? You feel that H may be part of the reaction, but I think we could make the stuff with very little H by using low voltages or simply going to a nonaqueous solution ( fred found a patent using glycol, I'm partial to acetone ). K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 08:03:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22G3GBA025518; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:03:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22Fxwwv023366; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 07:59:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 07:59:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050302080337.056557b8 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 08:04:15 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: RE: Article about Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302095347.02bb10b0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302093044.02a0ff28 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58194 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You must be filtering my messages, too! FAIR WARNING: Wikipedia, like Vortex, has its own culture, and exists as a fairly well-defined community along with their own written and unwritten rules. The Wiki cold fusion page appears to be run by people who are for the most part, very different from the people here on V. The Wikians pride themselves on representing mainstream science, and not representing "fringe" POV (points of views), even though "fringe" POVs just might happen to be far more knowledgeable and accurate. It might APPEAR as though one can just "jump in" and make a correction on the "honor system" (for example, correcting the note about "no excess heat") but prepared - many of the Wiki veterans won't think twice about immediately erasing your contribution and asking questions later. I think it would be great if more Vortexians contributed to the CF Wiki, but you should just know what you are up against. If you make any updates, be sure to add a title comment that summarizes your change. Make use of the "Discussion" page - it's quite helpful. And don't be too shocked at the level of ignorance reflected on the page. I had a run-in a while back with one of the Wiki-ops - he thought he was so smart about cold fusion because he was a plasma fusion grad student at Columbia. Steve At 09:56 AM 3/2/2005 -0500, you wrote: >John Steck wrote: > >>You must be filtering my messages... 8^) > >No, I was aware of that. The URL I listed is an article in Wired magazine >about Wikipedia. > >I have been aware of their cold fusion article for some time, because it >has a link to LENR-CANR.org, and I see people visiting from it from time >to time. > >The cold fusion article is not good. It needs extensive revisions. For >example, it says: > >"Energy source vs power store > >While the output power is higher than the input power during the power >burst, the power balance over the whole experiment does not show >significant imbalances. Since the mechanism under the power burst is not >known, one cannot say whether energy is really produced, or simply stored >during the early stages of the experiment (loading of deuterium in the >Palladium cathode) for later release during the power burst." > >As the readers here surely realize, this is nonsense. > >- Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 08:26:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22GQSBA012419; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:26:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22GQNak012381; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:26:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:26:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302112151.02bc9048 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:24:28 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Article about Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20050302080337.056557b8 mail.dlsi.net> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302093044.02a0ff28 pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20050302080337.056557b8 mail.dlsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_95165671==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58196 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_95165671==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Steven Krivit wrote: >It might APPEAR as though one can just "jump in" and make a correction on >the "honor system" (for example, correcting the note about "no excess >heat") but prepared - many of the Wiki veterans won't think twice about >immediately erasing your contribution and asking questions later. Well, that sounds unpromising. I would not waste my time making corrections, in that case. It sounds like an organized online version of sci.physics.fusion. I have not studied the Wikipedia documentation. Is there a way to contact the authors of these articles? I would like to send them a short note pointing out a few of the problems and asking whether they would or would not erase my contributions. - Jed --=====================_95165671==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Steven Krivit wrote:

It might APPEAR as though one can just "jump in" and make a correction on the "honor system" (for example, correcting the note about "no excess heat") but prepared - many of the Wiki veterans won't think twice about immediately erasing your contribution and asking questions later.

Well, that sounds unpromising. I would not waste my time making corrections, in that case. It sounds like an organized online version of sci.physics.fusion.

I have not studied the Wikipedia documentation. Is there a way to contact the authors of these articles? I would like to send them a short note pointing out a few of the problems and asking whether they would or would not erase my contributions.

- Jed
--=====================_95165671==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 08:32:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22GUNBM015348; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:31:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22GPB3r011380; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:25:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:25:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006901c51f44$43428fc0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:24:08 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58195 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith et al. > It look like from reading the morning mail that Fred may > have found better refs with the correct value, which > ( using your superior nomenclature ) puts it at 1/10th eV/atom. Sorry, but .1 eV per atom is NOT going to give you an explosion, especially with a material like Sb with a low vapor pressure. It will hardly get very warm in fact. This issue begs for more detailed research, and it may be worth the effort for me to go over to the Cal engineering library. There is remarkably little which is relevant online (again, is this due to the terrorist implications) , but I did find this piece, "Fire and Ice: Exothermic Phase Change Applied to Microbiological Incubation" which is probably indicative of the type of individual who will eventually find a cheap ZPE coherence technique , maybe unknowingly. http://www.edwards.af.mil/archive/2001/2001-archive-science.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 08:45:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22Gj3BA025064; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:45:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22GiwcI025003; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:44:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:44:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050302164449.006a54cc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 16:44:49 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: Article about Wikipedia Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58197 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:04 am 02-03-05 -0800, Steve wrote: > FAIR WARNING: > > Wikipedia, like Vortex, has its own culture, and exists as a fairly > well-defined community along with their own written and unwritten rules. > The Wiki cold fusion page appears to be run by people who are for the most > part, very different from the people here on V. > > The Wikians pride themselves on representing mainstream science, and not > representing "fringe" POV (points of views), even though "fringe" POVs just > might happen to be far more knowledgeable and accurate. > > It might APPEAR as though one can just "jump in" and make a correction on > the "honor system" (for example, correcting the note about "no excess > heat") but be prepared - many of the Wiki veterans won't think twice about > immediately erasing your contribution and asking questions later. My son's experience, exactly - 8-( But as one of my recusant ancestors might have said, ----------------------------------------------------------- "Let 'em have the bloody churches. We've got the Mass. 8^) ----------------------------------------------------------- Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 09:13:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22HCrBA012951; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:12:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22HCo0w012908; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:12:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:12:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=1SD/RgcdtAqgSmk7fUpnL06g8WqJhGvt7E76P7uLkmxG7cmL7z0X7qF2A1BWLb7wgL6QPU18KOnGNvfQp9g/OlkQO92dlz7R9wWpsW4cyh9RcmsA1dtmjMt/sMXN+TbGWur751bOp7Q3UGJYlt6BdtiHJGtqGveIEy5QXt3GEiU= ; Message-ID: <20050302171240.10730.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:12:39 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: CF Expert? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2085520736-1109783559=:3725" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58198 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-2085520736-1109783559=:3725 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii One of the first engineering tasks I had while still in school was to find out why a steel conveyor chain for my employer was failing. Long story, but the short answer was hydrogen embrittlement in the electroplating process. This was in 1975. Since then I keep checking to see if anyone has figured out the mechanism for hydrogen embrittlement (they really haven't.) In the googling process I stumbled across the chemical industry expert witness site. Check this one out: >http://chemindustry.intota.com/viewbio.asp?mode=&bioFile=/xml/biofull/603226data.xml&bioID=603226&strQuery=high-strength+steel< or http://tinyurl.com/6f4n3 Particularly, "COLD FUSION. Expert is familiar with several aspects of cold fusion." --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --0-2085520736-1109783559=:3725 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
One of the first engineering tasks I had while still in school was to find out why a steel conveyor chain for my employer was failing.  Long story, but the short answer was hydrogen embrittlement in the electroplating process.  This was in 1975.
 
Since then I keep checking to see if anyone has figured out the mechanism for hydrogen embrittlement (they really haven't.)  In the googling process I stumbled across the chemical industry expert witness site.  Check this one out:
 
 
or
 
 
Particularly, "COLD FUSION. Expert is familiar with several aspects of cold fusion."

Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --0-2085520736-1109783559=:3725-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 09:43:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22Hh3BA003899; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:43:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22Hgr6h003620; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:42:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:42:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302123844.02b1b150 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 12:42:38 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: CF Expert? In-Reply-To: <20050302171240.10730.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050302171240.10730.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58199 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Blanton wrote: >Check this one out: > > >http://chemindustry.intota.com/viewbio.asp?mode=&bioFile=/xml/biofull/603 > 226data.xml&bioID=603226&strQuery=high-strength+steel< > >or > >http://tinyurl.com/6f4n3 > >Particularly, "COLD FUSION. Expert is familiar with several aspects of >cold fusion." The expert is not named, but in the age of Google that is absurd. The expert received the W.R. Whitney Award in 1987. See: http://www.nace.org/nace/content/awards/whitneyrecpt.asp W.R. Whitney Award (1987) winner: Richard Oriani. Bingo. He is indeed an expert in CF. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 09:46:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22HjqBA005813; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:45:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22Hjlds005749; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:45:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:45:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=Z9l/RqYp0Am8ubxdBXhdXlnHvfj71pDPPAY0pyuWiDj9kMTka+oL0aF/2dFOCxgT; Message-ID: <410-2200533216454340 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:45:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9407842919ad1d5e4653118708a7c4df883350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.219 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58200 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > To: ; Date: 3/2/05 10:26:54 AM > Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? > > Keith et al. > > > It look like from reading the morning mail that Fred may > > have found better refs with the correct value, which > > ( using your superior nomenclature ) puts it at 1/10th > eV/atom. > > > Sorry, but .1 eV per atom is NOT going to give you an > explosion, especially with a material like Sb with a low > vapor pressure. It will hardly get very warm in fact. > Hmm. 1 eV (1.6e-19 joule or ~ 3.8e-20 calories) per atom 4.95e21 atoms/gram translates to 190 calories. OTOH the nominal 0.05 cal/gram-deg C specific heat of Sb would give a 400 deg C temperature rise which is below its 630 C melting point where the heat of fusion is ~ 40 calories/gram. Gore pegged the temperature of the Exploding Antimony at 250 C giving the implication that the rest of the 19.6 (calories/gram?) was dumped into the "expelled white vapor". I sure hate shooting myself in the foot. :-) Frederick > This issue begs for more detailed research, and it may be > worth the effort for me to go over to the Cal engineering > library. There is remarkably little which is relevant online > (again, is this due to the terrorist implications) , but I > did find this piece, "Fire and Ice: Exothermic Phase Change > Applied to Microbiological Incubation" which is probably > indicative of the type of individual who will eventually > find a cheap ZPE coherence technique , maybe unknowingly. > > http://www.edwards.af.mil/archive/2001/2001-archive-science.html > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 10:25:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22IP0BA025157; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:25:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22IOsNU025104; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:24:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:24:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <017501c51f54$faa10e20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: References: <410-2200533216454340 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:23:46 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58201 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred, > > Sorry, but .1 eV per atom is NOT going to give you an > > explosion, especially with a material like Sb with a low > > vapor pressure. It will hardly get very warm in fact. > Hmm. 1 eV (1.6e-19 joule or ~ 3.8e-20 calories) per atom 4.95e21 atoms/gram > translates to 190 calories. Hey Keith and I are talking about 1/10 eV not 1 eV... Are you using those "frosted glasses" again, Fred? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 10:43:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22IgrBA003962; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:42:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22IgoHD003931; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:42:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:42:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01a401c51f57$7ddd5440$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Small scale ICF Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:41:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01A1_01C51F14.6F4DBDE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58202 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01A1_01C51F14.6F4DBDE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ...or, The tin man gets oiled in Oz, and the wizard gives-up the secret = to solving the wicked witch's (gasoline-warbucks) hegemony, in order to = crack the grip of the NeoCon petrocracy + OPEC collusion on Toto's = moto... Huh...? The reaction p+11B --> 3 alphas has always seemed the ideal, = in-a-perfect-world kind of nuclear reaction for ecological energy = production. It is a fission reaction, not a fusion reaction, with a = small fraction of the ecological negatives of other kinds of nuclear = energy. It is far cleaner than fusion, but it cannot be pulled off in a = plasma. It must start out as solid state to be efficient. Thus the = stalemate and the reason that few mention it anymore. The reason that the reaction p+11B --> 3 alphas is not feasible in any = kind of Tokomak, Fusor or other plasma ICF reactor is because boron when = in plasma form generates huge unrecoverable losses, due to the mass = difference with the protons, and the protons just cannot get hot-enough = to do the job. But as a solid "target" i.e. as when the external wall of = the fusor is designed as a target, or if a pellet of frozen borane is = irradiated, things start to get interesting. This does not necessarily = require massive machines, either. You need protons in the borane molecules to get to the equivalent of = about 750 keV of energy to make it statistically interesting. But is = there any efficient and alternative way to do this, besides acceleration = them? IOW can the protons which are already there in a borane molecule = absorb that kind of needed energy so as to get propelled into the very = nucleus in which they are chemically bound? The answer is maybe, if one can use the "coulomb slingshot" effect of = the k-shell electrons. But to push a proton in that far requires several = megabars of equivalent pressure applied very rapidly. A chemical = explosion has too little, but perhaps not if "bootstrapped" such as by = rapidly irradiating and imploding a cryogenic "grey tin" sphere filled = with frozen borane.=20 Dorothy: But where does that kind of pressure come from? Wizard of Oz:=20 A heart is not judged by how much you love; but by how much you are = loved by others. Dot: Get real, Wiz. We're back in Kansas now, trying to solve the world's = energy problem. Wicked Witch of the West:=20 Gone so soon? I wouldn't hear of it. Why my little oil party's just = beginning. Toto: Grrr...Grrr... Wiz: Oh, I see. Perhaps the tin man has your answer. Dot: Yes! Yes! it is the tin man!! Signed, Harry Tuttle=20 ductwork engineer - aka - the "tin man" All join-in: Somewhere over the rainbow... way up high, there's a land that I heard of...once in a lullaby. Somewhere over the rainbow skies are blue, and the dreams that you dare to dream...really do come true. Chorus: Just say adieu to CO2 Toto: ....arf. arf... [wags tail rapidly} ------=_NextPart_000_01A1_01C51F14.6F4DBDE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
...or, The tin man gets oiled in Oz, and the wizard gives-up the = secret to=20 solving the wicked witch's (gasoline-warbucks) hegemony, in order = to crack=20 the grip of the NeoCon petrocracy + OPEC collusion on Toto's = moto...
 
Huh...?
 
The reaction p+11B --> 3 alphas has always seemed the ideal,=20 in-a-perfect-world kind of nuclear reaction for ecological energy = production. It=20 is a fission reaction, not a fusion reaction, with a small fraction of = the=20 ecological negatives of other kinds of nuclear energy. It is far = cleaner=20 than fusion, but it cannot be pulled off in a plasma. It must start out = as solid=20 state to be efficient. Thus the stalemate and the reason that few = mention it=20 anymore.
 
The reason that the reaction p+11B --> 3 alphas is = not feasible in=20 any kind of Tokomak, Fusor or other plasma ICF reactor is because boron = when in=20 plasma form generates huge unrecoverable losses, due to the mass = difference=20 with the protons, and the protons just cannot get hot-enough to do the = job. But=20 as a solid "target" i.e. as when the external wall of the = fusor is=20 designed as a target, or if a pellet of frozen borane is irradiated, = things=20 start to get interesting. This does not necessarily require massive = machines,=20 either.
 
You need protons in the borane molecules to get to the equivalent = of about=20 750 keV of energy to make it statistically interesting. But is there any = efficient and alternative way to do this, besides acceleration = them? IOW=20 can the protons which are already there in a borane molecule absorb = that=20 kind of needed energy so as to get propelled into the very nucleus in = which they=20 are chemically bound?
 
The answer is maybe, if one can use the "coulomb slingshot" effect = of the=20 k-shell electrons. But to push a proton in that far requires several = megabars of=20 equivalent pressure applied very rapidly. A chemical explosion has too = little,=20 but perhaps not if "bootstrapped" such as by rapidly irradiating and = imploding a=20 cryogenic "grey tin" sphere filled with frozen borane. 
 
Dorothy:
But where does that kind of pressure come from?
 
Wizard of Oz:
A heart is not judged by how much you love; but by how much you are = loved=20 by others.
 
Dot:
Get real, Wiz. We're back in Kansas now, trying to solve the = world's energy=20 problem.
 
Wicked Witch of the West:
Gone so soon? I wouldn't hear of it. Why my little oil party's just = beginning.
 
Toto:
Grrr...Grrr...
 
Wiz:
Oh, I see. Perhaps the tin man has your answer.
 
Dot:
Yes! Yes! it is the tin man!!
 
Signed,
Harry Tuttle
   ductwork engineer - aka - the "tin man"
 
All join-in:
 
Somewhere over the rainbow... way up high,
there's a land that I = heard=20 of...once in a lullaby.
 
Somewhere over the rainbow skies are blue,
and the dreams that = you dare=20 to dream...really do come true.
 
Chorus: Just say adieu to CO2
 
Toto:
....arf. arf... [wags tail rapidly}
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_01A1_01C51F14.6F4DBDE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 10:49:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22ImwBA006980; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:48:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22ImuQ3006958; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:48:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:48:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=WKHb0WhI+unqqWgSrF6A81HUJwu74NUzOVc/ruVcp0DaaJ1//MLonXhqnC743RIa; Message-ID: <410-22005332174818760 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:48:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403cff3aecbe579571721fe5d202f5a724350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58203 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > > Hmm. 1 eV (1.6e-19 joule or ~ 3.8e-20 calories) per atom > 4.95e21 atoms/gram > > translates to 190 calories. > > Hey Keith and I are talking about 1/10 eV not 1 eV... Are > you using those "frosted glasses" again, Fred? > Would you believe 19.0 calories instead? :-) Off to get some kim-wipes. Fred > Jones > [Original Message] > From: Jones Beene > To: > Cc: > Date: 3/2/05 12:24:59 PM > Subject: Re: Explosive Antimony on Platinum, Cold Fusion in 1855? > > Fred, > > > > Sorry, but .1 eV per atom is NOT going to give you an > > > explosion, especially with a material like Sb with a low > > > vapor pressure. It will hardly get very warm in fact. > > > Hmm. 1 eV (1.6e-19 joule or ~ 3.8e-20 calories) per atom > 4.95e21 atoms/gram > > translates to 190 calories. > > Hey Keith and I are talking about 1/10 eV not 1 eV... Are > you using those "frosted glasses" again, Fred? > > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 11:10:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22JAPBA016635; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:10:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22JAOgI016608; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:10:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:10:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 14:06:30 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: Article about Wikipedia In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302112151.02bc9048 pop.mindspring.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Fovq1wBPxoXcDOnCkwN7ow)" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <-vTskB.A.UDE.f-gJCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58204 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_Fovq1wBPxoXcDOnCkwN7ow) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT You could create your own entry on CF, although it would need a different title. e.g. L.E.N.R. or C.A.N.R. or C.M.N.S. (condensed matter nuclear science) Harry Jed Rothwell at jedrothwell mindspring.com wrote: Steven Krivit wrote: It might APPEAR as though one can just "jump in" and make a correction on the "honor system" (for example, correcting the note about "no excess heat") but prepared - many of the Wiki veterans won't think twice about immediately erasing your contribution and asking questions later. Well, that sounds unpromising. I would not waste my time making corrections, in that case. It sounds like an organized online version of sci.physics.fusion. I have not studied the Wikipedia documentation. Is there a way to contact the authors of these articles? I would like to send them a short note pointing out a few of the problems and asking whether they would or would not erase my contributions. - Jed --Boundary_(ID_Fovq1wBPxoXcDOnCkwN7ow) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re: Article about Wikipedia You could create your own entry on CF, although it would need a different title.

e.g. L.E.N.R. or C.A.N.R.
or C.M.N.S. (condensed matter nuclear science)

Harry

Jed Rothwell at jedrothwell mindspring.com wrote:

Steven Krivit wrote:

It might APPEAR as though one can just "jump in" and make a correction on the "honor system" (for example, correcting the note about "no excess heat") but prepared - many of the Wiki veterans won't think twice about immediately erasing your contribution and asking questions later.

Well, that sounds unpromising. I would not waste my time making corrections, in that case. It sounds like an organized online version of sci.physics.fusion.

I have not studied the Wikipedia documentation. Is there a way to contact the authors of these articles? I would like to send them a short note pointing out a few of the problems and asking whether they would or would not erase my contributions.

- Jed


--Boundary_(ID_Fovq1wBPxoXcDOnCkwN7ow)-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 11:41:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22JeeBA029048; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:40:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22JebYA029017; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:40:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:40:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rra4i$nmi403 mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.90,130,1107752400"; d="scan'208"; a="795414531:sNHT12495038" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: Subject: Re: Re: Article about Wikipedia Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:40:23 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58205 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Harry Veeder > You could create your own entry on CF, although it > would need a different title. > > e.g. L.E.N.R. or C.A.N.R. > or C.M.N.S. (condensed matter nuclear science) > I think that's an excellent idea. Wouldn't one say that "C.A.N.R.", "L.E.N.R.", and "C.M.N.S." are more scientifically accurate terms than "cold fusion" anyway? Obviously, "cold fusion" is the more popular held term for the phenomenon, and most who are curious are likely to look there first. OTOH, one might argue that those seriously researching the phenomenon will eventually look up the more accurate terms "C.A.N.R.", "L.E.N.R.", and "C.M.N.S." - and based on the literature they find here will hopefully acquire a more accurate understanding of the phenomenon. Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 11:42:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22JfbBA029677; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:41:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22JfX7H029640; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:41:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:41:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Article about Wikipedia Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:42:45 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58206 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I second the motion. Your post modern solution is just the ticket in the thicket, Harry. Also: Don't pick fights with the editors, Jed. Just post the new LENR topic and lets see what happens. K. -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200 freenet.carleton.ca] Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 2:07 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Article about Wikipedia You could create your own entry on CF, although it would need a different title. e.g. L.E.N.R. or C.A.N.R. or C.M.N.S. (condensed matter nuclear science) Harry Jed Rothwell at jedrothwell mindspring.com wrote: Steven Krivit wrote: It might APPEAR as though one can just "jump in" and make a correction on the "honor system" (for example, correcting the note about "no excess heat") but prepared - many of the Wiki veterans won't think twice about immediately erasing your contribution and asking questions later. Well, that sounds unpromising. I would not waste my time making corrections, in that case. It sounds like an organized online version of sci.physics.fusion. I have not studied the Wikipedia documentation. Is there a way to contact the authors of these articles? I would like to send them a short note pointing out a few of the problems and asking whether they would or would not erase my contributions. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 11:52:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22JqaBA001861; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:52:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22JqY6Z001832; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:52:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:52:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:52:52 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: CF Expert? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58207 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:12 AM 3/2/5, Terry Blanton wrote: >One of the first engineering tasks I had while still in school was to find >out why a steel conveyor chain for my employer was failing. Long story, >but the short answer was hydrogen embrittlement in the electroplating >process. This was in 1975. > >Since then I keep checking to see if anyone has figured out the mechanism >for hydrogen embrittlement (they really haven't.) In the googling process >I stumbled across the chemical industry expert witness site. Check this >one out: It looks to be fairly well covered and understood in *Topics in Physics Vol 72 - Hydrogen in Metals III*", Edited by Helmut Wipf, Springer-Verlag, ISBN 3-540-61639-X, 1997, pp 221 ff. Interestingly, one of the processes, called "hydrogen attack", is due to carbides forming methane: FeC + 2H2 --> CH4 + 3 Fe "The pressure of methane increases parabolically with the pressure of hydrogen." It does say, "The kinetics of the process is unclear." though. The bubbles of methane form on grain boundaries, and this requires diffusion of the carbon. A graph of the pressure vs temperature boundary below which the embirttlement does not occur is given. It goes on to say that hydrogen attack is not limited to carbides, but can be due to other reactions leading to bubble formation, for example hydrogen combining with oxides or oxygen bubbles to form water. It goes on to describe other mechanisms, like metal hydride formation, and physics of crack growth, etc. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 12:42:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22KfUBA024490; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:41:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22KfQEE024451; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:41:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:41:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 15:41:11 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Big CF breakthrough reported Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58208 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sources say there has been big breakthrough with CF Pd-Rh alloys. A company called Innovative Energy Solutions Inc. has been formed to market the technology. See: http://iesiusa.com/ This is a typical vague web site with no hard details and some kooky looking stuff about "waste heat recovery" (under "solutions"). I have not seen any mention of cold fusion here, and I would not pay any attention to this, but My Sources say that some Big Gun CF researchers have been involved with this company lately, and they vouch for it. I have not spoken with the Big Guns themselves. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 12:47:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22Kl8BA027189; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:47:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22KkwGh027087; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:46:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:46:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302154326.029970a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 15:46:31 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <65VbqC.A.LnG.BZiJCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58209 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Stop the presses. I downloaded the "white paper" which is mostly white noise -- vapid. It describes the work of Hyunik Yang (Korea) et al. It says: "They used resonate harmonic frequencies to expose the nuclei of atoms so they could put the nuclei together to obtain the energy from the fused product. Their system is inexpensive, safe, and easy to operate and construct. The first plasma device will produce heat by taking water and converting it to steam. This device is expected to be working by late 2004 and an early prototype is already functioning. The early prototype produces 14 times the energy put into it and the final product is expected to produce 200 times the energy going into the unit. The second plasma device is expected in early 2005 and it will use its energy to split the water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen. This device is already working in an old prototype which produces the hydrogen and oxygen and immediately recombines the two in a hot hydrogen and oxygen flame. The old hydrogen-oxygen device was the first proof that the team had successfully tapped the energy of the atom. It only produced 50% more energy out than went into the device but showed that the energy of the atom was being drawn upon." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 12:51:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22KpWBA029356; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:51:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22KpUmf029329; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:51:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:51:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: CF Expert? Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 07:51:20 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j22KpOBA029231 Resent-Message-ID: <9LxwIC.A.LKH.RdiJCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58210 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 02 Mar 2005 10:52:52 -0900: Hi, [snip] >It does say, "The kinetics of the process is unclear." though. The bubbles >of methane form on grain boundaries, and this requires diffusion of the >carbon. [snip] Perhaps, it is the methane which migrates after it is formed, not the carbon before the methane is formed. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 13:02:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22L2YBA001034; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:02:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22L2Vtp001007; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:02:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:02:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302155826.02ae5e68 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 16:02:20 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_4127859==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58211 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_4127859==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed There is another document on this web site titled GPS.pdf. It is a report on a visit to Innovative Energy Solutions Inc. I cannot tell who wrote it, but it is someone who is easy to impress. If I had seen the same thing I would have written a scathing report saying this trip was a waste of time in the instrumentation is meaningless. It says: "Report on Visit to IESI December 17th, 2004 The purpose of the visit was meeting the group of entrepreneurs who developed the new energy source and see a live demonstration of the technology. . . . My understanding of the principle is that the Low Energy Nuclear Reaction is produced by cavitation of deuterium enriched water in the presence of a metal catalyst. In addition to cavitation, the reaction is accelerated significantly by the use of a resonating frequency in the reaction cell. This method is consistent with scientific experiments and observations published by other scientists, the most recent being at the 11th Conference of the International Society for Condensed Matter Nuclear Science in Marseille, France, in early November 2004. . . . After the initial meeting, we drove to the location of the IESI lab for the technology demonstration. . . . The device was set-up mostly for demo purposes and aside from a pump control panel and a thermometer it didn't feature any instrumentation to measure the actual energy generated in the process. The indications of energy generation were the temperature increase in the water loop, as indicated by the thermometer, the luminescence and the electrical discharge arcs generated inside the cell. During the demonstration I was informed that the reaction has to be maintained at a rather low intensity level due to the possibility of damage to the transparent reaction cell. The transparent reaction cell was made of a material that couldn't withstand the thermal . . . The reaction appeared to be 100% repeatable and controllable in duration and intensity. The second demonstration set-up was a full size heat exchanger built inside a 20ft. container. The system was featured with all the instrumentation required to measure very accurately the amount of energy . . . The key element of the system, the LENR reaction cell, was not installed at the time so I couldn't see the system functional. . . . I was really impressed with the energy generation solution presented by IESI. . . ." - Jed --=====================_4127859==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" There is another document on this web site titled GPS.pdf. It is a report on a visit to Innovative Energy Solutions Inc. I cannot tell who wrote it, but it is someone who is easy to impress. If I had seen the same thing I would have written a scathing report saying this trip was a waste of time in the instrumentation is meaningless. It says:


"Report on Visit to IESI
December 17th, 2004

The purpose of the visit was meeting the group of entrepreneurs who developed the new
energy source and see a live demonstration of the technology. . . .

My understanding of the principle is that the Low Energy Nuclear Reaction is produced by cavitation of deuterium enriched water in the presence of a metal catalyst. In addition to cavitation, the reaction is accelerated significantly by the use of a resonating frequency in the reaction cell.

This method is consistent with scientific experiments and observations published by other scientists, the most recent being at the 11th Conference of the International Society for Condensed Matter Nuclear Science in Marseille, France, in early November 2004. . . .


After the initial meeting, we drove to the location of the IESI lab for the technology demonstration. . . . The device was set-up mostly for demo purposes and aside from a pump control panel and a thermometer it didn’t feature any instrumentation to measure the actual energy generated in the process. The indications of energy generation were the temperature increase in the water loop, as indicated by the thermometer, the luminescence and the electrical discharge arcs generated inside the cell.

During the demonstration I was informed that the reaction has to be maintained at a rather low intensity level due to the possibility of damage to the transparent reaction cell. The transparent reaction cell was made of a material that couldn’t withstand the thermal . . .

The reaction appeared to be 100% repeatable and controllable in duration and intensity.

The second demonstration set-up was a full size heat exchanger built inside a 20ft. container. The system was featured with all the instrumentation required to measure very accurately the amount of energy . . .  The key element of the system, the LENR reaction cell, was not installed at the time so I
couldn’t see the system functional. . . .

I was really impressed with the energy generation solution presented by IESI. . . ."


- Jed
--=====================_4127859==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 13:23:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22LNFBA009588; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:23:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22LNC1f009558; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:23:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:23:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302161821.02af88d8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 16:22:51 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Cravens makes suggestion to X Prize sponsors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_5367312==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58212 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_5367312==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dennis Cravens wrote to me: "I decided to send in a challenge idea to those X prize people. They asked for suggestions and some of their new releases even mentioned Cold fusion." See: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/11/15/MNGO39RK621.DTL He filled out the X Prize form and told them to sponsor CF. His application is attached. I think it is too ambitious, but he has the right idea. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - First Name: Dennis Last Name: Cravens Job Title: professor Company/Organisation: SCU Email: physics netmdc.com Phone: 505 682 3384 Suggested Name of Challenge (i.e. World Technology Prize for ****): Excess Energy Challenge Brief Description of Suggested Challenge (No more than 600 words please): Excess heat over that expected by their electrical input has been claimed from electrolytic systems and has often been called "cold fusion". However, the claims have lacked repeatable, independently verified, and controlled examples. The excess power challenge is to heat stirred tank of water in a way that shows heat generation in excess by about 50% or greater than the electrical energy supplied to the system. This must be done successfully three times in a row within 30 days and to three independent teams of judges. The judges will monitor the temperature of the heated water and electrical input to the system in any manner they choice and announce before the trial. A secondary test to verify the measurement systems of the judges will be done by comparison of heat generation by a joule heating of a resister. The challenge power levels will be conducted near the magnitude of about 100 watts. Suggested Potential Rules: Suggested Potential Rules 1) All devices and systems may be required to be extensively examined by judges after the conclusion of the last trial. 2) Two devices may be destructively examined after the trial. One will remain intact for historical reasons and returned to challengers. 3) Excess energy must be shown on three trials- all conducted within a 30-day period. 4) To show reproducibility, the three trials must be conducted with separate but similar systems. 5) The tank of water will be rectangular and have internal dimensions of at least 50 cm along each bottom side. The tank including the top surface will be well insulated and may be stirred by methods supplied by the judging team. One side of the tank will be clear to allow for examination of system during the challenge attempts. The height of the tank will be slightly higher than 50 cm to allow for water displacement due to the volume of the device being tested. The tank will be filled with 125 liters of pure water. 6) No less than 5 temperature sensors will monitor the temperature of the water within the tank and an average will be taken to arrive at the heat gain of the tank of water. Judges may place the sensors in the tank at their choice but with full contact with the water. Judges may use an array of various sensors. 7) The electrical input power to the system will be measured by judges in any manner they wish. However, the choice of measurement must be later verified as valid by use of calibration by use of a resistor in the same system and under similar conditions. Calibration of measurement systems must yield values must agree to within 5% of that expected from resistor joule heating of the system. 8) The tank of water will start from a temperature of 25 degrees C and the air temperature around the tank will be maintained to within 0.5 degrees of 25 degrees during the trials. 9) Each trial will last 10 hours. In which time, the tank of water must be heated to 35 degrees while the electrical input power to the device averages no more than 100 watts. This is an excess of about 50% over electrical input power. 10) The device must have a volume of no more than 5 liters, including all system items within the tank. 11) The device's contact from within the tank to outside the tank must be only through electrical wires that are freely accessible to judges for measurement connections. 12) The power to the device must not average over 100 watts over the 10 hours of each trial. In addition the input power will be supplied through slow blow fuses to prevent continued currents of over 10 amps. 13) The judges may be selected differently and use different techniques to measure input power, monitor water temperatures, and stir water on different trials. 14) The rules committee may choose to use different teams of judges for each trial.. 15) Calibration and verification of the judges measurement system will be conducted both before the trials begin and at the conclusion of the trial. This will be done by applying 100 watts of power to a resistor system located within the tank to be used by the trials. 16) Each trial will begin with the system placed in the tank and held without input power for at least 5 hours to assure the tank and system are at equilibrium and at 25 degrees C. Suggested Time Life of the Award (how long given to win?): 5 years How Many Companies to Compete?: 12 Suggested Prize Amount: $10,000,000 --=====================_5367312==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Dennis Cravens wrote to me:

"I decided to send in a challenge idea to those X prize people.  They asked
for suggestions and some of their new releases even mentioned Cold fusion."

See:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/11/15/MNGO39RK621.DTL

He filled out the X Prize form and told them to sponsor CF. His application is attached. I think it is too ambitious, but he has the right idea.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

First Name: Dennis
Last Name: Cravens
Job Title: professor
Company/Organisation: SCU
Email: physics netmdc.com
Phone: 505 682 3384

Suggested Name of Challenge (i.e. World Technology Prize for ****):
Excess Energy Challenge

Brief Description of Suggested Challenge (No more than 600 words please):

Excess heat over that expected by their electrical input has been claimed from electrolytic systems and has often been called "cold fusion".  However, the claims have lacked repeatable, independently verified, and   controlled examples.   The excess power challenge is to heat stirred tank of water in a way that shows heat generation in excess by  about 50% or greater than the electrical energy supplied to the system.  This must be done successfully three times in a row within 30 days and to three independent teams of judges.  The judges will monitor the temperature of the heated water and electrical input to the system in any manner they choice and announce before the trial.  A secondary test to verify the measurement systems of the judges will be done by comparison of heat generation by a joule heating of a resister.  The challenge power levels will be conducted near the  magnitude of about 100 watts.

Suggested Potential Rules:

Suggested Potential Rules

1)      All devices and systems may be required to be extensively examined by judges after the conclusion of the last trial.
2)      Two devices may be destructively examined after the trial.  One will remain intact for historical reasons and returned to challengers.
3)      Excess energy must be shown on three trials- all conducted within a 30-day period.
4)      To show reproducibility, the three trials must be conducted with separate but similar systems.
5)      The tank of water will be rectangular and have internal dimensions of at least 50 cm along each bottom side.  The tank including the top surface will be well insulated and may be stirred by methods supplied by the judging team.  One side of the tank will be clear to allow for examination of system during the challenge attempts. The height of the tank will be slightly higher than 50 cm to allow for water  displacement due to the volume of the device being tested.  The tank will be filled with 125 liters of pure
water.
6)      No less than 5 temperature sensors will monitor the temperature of the water within the tank and an average will be taken to arrive at the heat gain of the tank of water.  Judges may place the sensors in the tank at their choice but with full contact with the water.  Judges may use an array of various sensors.
7)      The electrical input power to the system will be measured by judges in any manner they wish.  However, the choice of measurement must be later verified as valid by use of calibration by use of a resistor in the same system and under similar conditions. Calibration of measurement systems must yield values must agree to within 5% of that expected from resistor joule heating of the system.
8)      The tank of water will start from a temperature of 25 degrees C and
the air temperature around the tank will be maintained to within 0.5 degrees of 25 degrees during the trials.
9)      Each trial will last 10 hours.  In which time, the tank of water must be heated to 35 degrees while the electrical input power to the device averages no more than 100 watts.  This is an excess of about 50% over
electrical input power.
10)     The device must have a volume of no more than 5 liters, including all system items within the tank.
11)     The device's contact from within the tank to outside the tank must be only through electrical wires that are freely accessible to judges for measurement connections.
12)     The power to the device must not average over 100 watts over the 10 hours of each trial.  In addition  the input power will be supplied through slow blow fuses to prevent continued currents of over 10 amps.
13)     The judges may be selected differently and use different techniques to measure input power, monitor water temperatures, and stir water on different trials.
14)      The rules committee may choose to use different teams of judges for each trial..
15)      Calibration and verification of the judges measurement system will be conducted both before the trials begin and at the conclusion of the trial.  This will be done by applying 100 watts of power to a resistor
system located within the tank to be used by the trials.
16)       Each trial will begin with the system placed in the tank and held without input power for at least 5 hours to assure the tank and system are at equilibrium and at 25 degrees C.


Suggested Time Life of the Award (how long given to win?):
5 years

How Many Companies to Compete?:
12

Suggested Prize Amount:
$10,000,000
 --=====================_5367312==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 14:08:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22M89BA026800; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:08:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22M871N026775; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:08:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:08:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050302220751.006a552c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 22:07:51 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58213 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:02 pm 02-03-05 -0500, Jed wrote: >There is another document on this web site titled GPS.pdf. It is a report >on a visit to Innovative Energy Solutions Inc. I cannot tell who wrote it, >but it is someone who is easy to impress. If I had seen the same thing I >would have written a scathing report saying this trip was a waste of time >in the instrumentation is meaningless. It says: > > >"Report on Visit to IESI >December 17th, 2004 > >The purpose of the visit was meeting the group of entrepreneurs who >developed the new >energy source and see a live demonstration of the technology. . . . > >My understanding of the principle is that the Low Energy Nuclear Reaction >is produced by cavitation of deuterium enriched water in the presence of a >metal catalyst. In addition to cavitation, the reaction is accelerated >significantly by the use of a resonating frequency in the reaction cell. I can understand your disgust with the poor standard of instrumentation, etc. Jed, but as far as I'm concerned, it all sounds terribly plausible. In my view, the people who think high pressure is needed are barking up a gum tree. I know this view has met with a catatonic silence from the readers of Vortex apart from Jones, and possibly Keith, but I am finding more and more evidence it is correct. I will be presenting some evidence from ice heave in soils, in a later post. Cavitation, resonant frequency and catalyst could all combine in delivering high pF. For the reasons I gave in my IE paper, that is at the basis, of CF (and also of Mills hydrinos, incidently). Mill's problem is, he has the atoms but not the bits, to use a Negropontean way of putting it. Incidently, I notice that Bush has appointed N's big brother as the new Intelligence chief. If he's as good as Nicholas, that's a good choice IMNSHO). Sorry if all this seems terribly arrogant, but it's not as arrogant as Mills ;-) I have also made substantial progress in understanding the significance of high order derivatives which has considerably increased my confidence that I am dead right on the action of Beta-atmosphere pressure and the lack of it. At least I've not had to convince anyone on Vortex on the number of 2s that come up when you spin a dice. 8^) -------------------------------------------------------------- "On the contrary. if I make 6N trials where N is a very large integer, even though the fraction of 2's could be 1/6, the probability of this is small and tends to zero as N tends to infinity ." (see post Re: Correa, 2 Mar 2005 03:52:49} -------------------------------------------------------------- Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 14:17:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22MH5BA030236; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:17:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22MGvEP030181; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:16:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:16:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 09:16:44 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j22MGoBA030105 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58214 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 02 Mar 2005 15:41:11 -0500: Hi, [snip] On http://iesiusa.com/intellectual.html there is a list of patents, but I don't recognize the number format. Can someone help? 10-20020026277 would be particularly interesting. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 14:44:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22MiOBA011548; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:44:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22MiMni011523; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:44:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:44:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302171420.02a0b3e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 17:44:03 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050302220751.006a552c pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20050302220751.006a552c pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_10241312==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58215 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_10241312==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Grimer wrote: >I can understand your disgust with the poor standard of instrumentation, >etc. Jed, but as far as I'm concerned, it all sounds terribly plausible. Actually, I think it is plausible too. That is why I am disgusted by the instrumentation, and also by the documents on this web site. If you have something which is demonstrably real, for goodness sake demonstrate it properly! I almost get the feeling the people who wrote this web site are trying to convince the world they are flakes. I will never forget the half-baked CETI demonstration in California, which gave me the impression it was intended to obfuscate and hide the facts rather than bring them to light. It turned that was *exactly* what it was intended to do! It worked all too well. The crackpot attitude that spurs people to put on half-baked demonstrations reminds me a of a story my mother used to tell about my brother when he was a little kid. This was back in the 50s. My parents were holdouts and refused to buy a television. The local grocery store chain held a contest, in which contestants submitted an advertising jingle, and the company president's wife picked the best one and two runner-ups. The first prize was a trip to Europe, the second prize was a television, and third prize was $10. My brother got an entry form and sat down at the table, furrowed his brow, and seemed to think for a long time. My mother asked, "are you having trouble thinking up a jingle?" He said no he could think of a jingle easily, but he was trying to think of one that would be pretty good -- good enough for second prize -- but not so good that it would win first prize, because he did not want to go to Europe -- he wanted the television. CF entrepreneurs are forever trying to be a little impressive -- just enough to entice investors -- but not too impressive, to avoid tipping off the competition. This is childish nonsense. In business, you should always make your best case. You put your best foot forward no matter who you are speaking with, and you should try to be scrupulously honest, even if you are having a casual conversation with an old lady at a bus stop. I know some old ladies who ride buses in New York City who are members of the board at major corporations. When you act evasive, experienced business people will assume you are engaged in a shell game, or they will think you are several tacos short of a platter. - Jed --=====================_10241312==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Grimer wrote:

I can understand your disgust with the poor standard of instrumentation,
etc. Jed, but as far as I'm concerned, it all sounds terribly plausible.

Actually, I think it is plausible too. That is why I am disgusted by the instrumentation, and also by the documents on this web site. If you have something which is demonstrably real, for goodness sake demonstrate it properly! I almost get the feeling the people who wrote this web site are trying to convince the world they are flakes. I will never forget the half-baked CETI demonstration in California, which gave me the impression it was intended to obfuscate and hide the facts rather than bring them to light. It turned that was *exactly* what it was intended to do! It worked all too well.

The crackpot attitude that spurs people to put on half-baked demonstrations reminds me a of a story my mother used to tell about my brother when he was a little kid. This was back in the 50s. My parents were holdouts and refused to buy a television. The local grocery store chain held a contest, in which contestants  submitted an advertising jingle, and the company president's wife picked the best one and two runner-ups. The first prize was a trip to Europe, the second prize was a television, and third prize was $10. My brother got an entry form and sat down at the table, furrowed his brow, and seemed to think for a long time. My mother asked, "are you having trouble thinking up a jingle?" He said no he could think of a jingle easily, but he was trying to think of one that would be pretty good -- good enough for second prize -- but not so good that it would win first prize, because he did not want to go to Europe -- he wanted the television.

CF entrepreneurs are forever trying to be a little impressive -- just enough to entice investors -- but not too impressive, to avoid tipping off the competition. This is childish nonsense. In business, you should always make your best case. You put your best foot forward no matter who you are speaking with, and you should try to be scrupulously honest, even if you are having a casual conversation with an old lady at a bus stop. I know some old ladies who ride buses in New York City who are members of the board at major corporations. When you act evasive, experienced business people will assume you are engaged in a shell game, or they will think you are several tacos short of a platter.

- Jed
--=====================_10241312==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 14:57:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22MvOBA017649; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:57:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22MuuJm017399; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:56:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:56:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302175021.02b90970 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 17:56:28 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_10982656==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <1FZ-.A.uPE.1SkJCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58216 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_10982656==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: "Actually, I think it is plausible too. That is why I am disgusted by the instrumentation, and also by the documents on this web site." What I mean is, if I thought these people were the usual perpetual motion wackos, I would not care about the quality of their instrumentation or web site. It is best for everyone when the perpetual motion crowd acts the part. Sane people can instantly identify them and dismiss them. But My Sources say that this group, at IESI, may actually have something worthwhile, so it is a crying shame they dress up like wackos. You can multiply that by a factor of ~100 for Mills. Presenting a world-shaking radically new Theory of Everything on your web site is a surefire way to alienate the public. That is true even if 50 years from now everyone agrees you were a second Einstein and your theory was correct. There is a place and a time for everything. - Jed --=====================_10982656==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

"Actually, I think it is plausible too. That is why I am disgusted by the instrumentation, and also by the documents on this web site."

What I mean is, if I thought these people were the usual perpetual motion wackos, I would not care about the quality of their instrumentation or web site. It is best for everyone when the perpetual motion crowd acts the part. Sane people can instantly identify them and dismiss them. But My Sources say that this group, at IESI, may actually have something worthwhile, so it is a crying shame they dress up like wackos.

You can multiply that by a factor of ~100 for Mills. Presenting a world-shaking radically new Theory of Everything on your web site is a surefire way to alienate the public. That is true even if 50 years from now everyone agrees you were a second Einstein and your theory was correct. There is a place and a time for everything.

- Jed
 --=====================_10982656==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 15:47:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j22Nl6BA004580; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 15:47:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j22Nl4JV004551; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 15:47:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 15:47:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050302234655.006bfeb8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 23:46:55 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58217 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:56 pm 02-03-05 -0500, you wrote: >I wrote: > >"Actually, I think it is plausible too. That is why I am disgusted by the >instrumentation, and also by the documents on this web site." > >What I mean is, if I thought these people were the usual perpetual motion >wackos, I would not care about the quality of their instrumentation or web >site. It is best for everyone when the perpetual motion crowd acts the >part. Sane people can instantly identify them and dismiss them. But My >Sources say that this group, at IESI, may actually have something >worthwhile, so it is a crying shame they dress up like wackos. > >You can multiply that by a factor of ~100 for Mills. Presenting a >world-shaking radically new Theory of Everything on your web site is a >surefire way to alienate the public. That is true even if 50 years from now >everyone agrees you were a second Einstein and your theory was correct. >There is a place and a time for everything. > >- Jed I couldn't have put all that better myself, Jed. In fact, not having you way with words, I couldn't have put it half as well. I see I misjudged your view of things somewhat. 8-( Sorry. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 16:24:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j230OEBA020035; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:24:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j230OADF019994; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:24:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:24:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050302162807.05759e58 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 16:28:36 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: CF Expert? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302123844.02b1b150 pop.mindspring.com> References: <20050302171240.10730.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> <20050302171240.10730.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58218 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have his CV - yep, it's Oriani >W.R. Whitney Award (1987) winner: Richard Oriani. > >Bingo. He is indeed an expert in CF. > >- Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 16:33:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j230XTBA023764; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:33:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j230XQki023743; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:33:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:33:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050302163742.0574f430 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 16:38:00 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58219 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Korean patent On http://iesiusa.com/intellectual.html there is a list of >patents, but I don't recognize the number format. Can someone >help? 10-20020026277 would be particularly interesting. :) Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 19:01:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2331GBA027852; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:01:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2331CZg027818; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:01:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:01:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01c51f9d$3de23a90$a969c218 hanksblackbox> From: "Hank Scudder" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302175021.02b90970 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:01:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C51F73.52ECADF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58220 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C51F73.52ECADF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed, Just for the heck of it I did a google on Hyunik Yang and got a = large number of responses. He has reported on nanowires of Gallium = Nitride and Gallium Phosphide, as well as jointly with some russians on = an "Experimental Study of Peculiarities of Electric Explosion ... = web.pdx.edu/~pdx00210/News/CFRLEngNews/CFRLEN44.htm=20 It might be worth your while to look him up a little. There is also a = bunch of stuff from this new Company. Hank ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C51F73.52ECADF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jed,
    Just for the heck of = it I did a=20 google on Hyunik Yang and got a = large number=20 of responses. He has reported on nanowires of Gallium Nitride and = Gallium=20 Phosphide, as well as jointly with some russians on an =94Experimental Study of Peculiarities of Electric Explosion = ...=20 web.pdx.edu/~pdx00210/News/CFRLEngNews/CFRLEN44.htm=20
It might be worth your while to look him up a little. There is also = a bunch=20 of stuff from this new Company.
 
Hank
  ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C51F73.52ECADF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 20:28:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j234S2BA005297; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:28:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j234S0sH005268; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:28:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:28:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050303042751.85240.qmail web54509.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:27:51 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Working through the backlog. To: Vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-960421086-1109824071=:85237" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58221 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-960421086-1109824071=:85237 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I got a few weeks behind, so if anyone sent me a specific message, please resend it because I can't wade through that many posts in a reasonable amount of time. If nobody sent me anything specific, then I suppose I should speak up a little more often. Comments on various... Wiki is pretty cool as a source of contemporary knowledge, for fringe things its a little rough. I suggest including various "key" phrases in the text of the entry, as I usually end up at wiki by way of Google. Oz is overrated. Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-960421086-1109824071=:85237 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I got a few weeks behind, so if anyone sent me a specific message, please resend it because I can't wade through that many posts in a reasonable amount of time.
 
If nobody sent me anything specific, then I suppose I should speak up a little more often.
 
Comments on various...
 
Wiki is pretty cool as a source of contemporary knowledge, for fringe things its a little rough.  I suggest including various "key" phrases in the text of the entry, as I usually end up at wiki by way of Google.
 
Oz is overrated.
 
 


Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

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http://mail.yahoo.com --0-960421086-1109824071=:85237-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 20:32:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j234WNBA007599; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:32:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j234WLwE007563; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:32:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:32:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 15:32:12 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20050302163742.0574f430@mail.dlsi.net> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20050302163742.0574f430 mail.dlsi.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j234WHBA007379 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58222 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Steven Krivit's message of Wed, 02 Mar 2005 16:38:00 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Korean patent > >On http://iesiusa.com/intellectual.html there is a list of >>patents, but I don't recognize the number format. Can someone >>help? 10-20020026277 would be particularly interesting. > > >:) > > >Steve After spending hours searching the Korean patent database, I am slowly coming to the conclusion that this is a disinformation site. First, the "patent nr." Patent No.10-2002006931 is actually missing a digit (supposed to be 7 digits following the year). Second, the other patent 10-20020026277 appears to relate to a "BASE STATION APPARATUS AND HANDOVER CONTROL METHOD". I have written to them, and asked for clarification. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 21:35:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j235Z6gk011169; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:35:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j235Z4Je011159; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:35:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:35:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050302211607.088b0c70 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 21:39:40 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050302163742.0574f430 mail.dlsi.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330 pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20050302163742.0574f430 mail.dlsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_785072359==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58223 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_785072359==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Good work Robin. From their SEC filing (on their Web site) Patents 1. Hydrogen Technology 1. Korean Patent Application No. 10-2002-0026277 "Energy Generating Device" This patent has only been filed in Korean and has not been translated into English. The patent basically describes how the manufactured prototype Hydrogen Energy unit works. FWIW, as you notice, this is a patent pending. Their Web site does not say "pending." Perhaps it was granted after the SEC filing. This too, from the filing: 2. Korean Patent Application No. 10-2002-0069231 "Apparatus for Generating Hydrogen Gas" Worldwide Patent Cooperation Treaties (PCT) Patent No. KR2003/002395 Perhaps they may be found on the WIPO site if you have the time to look. >After spending hours searching the Korean patent database, I am >slowly coming to the conclusion that this is a disinformation >site. I was told about this situation by two people who are leaders in the cold fusion community over the past few days. Honestly, I am up to my eyebrows in editing the next newsletter so I've not dedicated much time to digging into this yet, but I'm happy to share my view: I'm skeptical. Optimistic but skeptical. The words Jed used to title this thread were the same I heard from an informant, perhaps the same one. We are all hoping for the day the sun will shine from the little CF jar, myself included. I think it's important for all of us to always do our own thinking, no matter which prominent U.S. theorist decides to endorse a particular commercial enterprise. This is one of the big lessons about cold fusion: Think for your (our) selves. Investigate and assess the facts and make up one's own decision. Perhaps this is a big breakthrough. How do we know that at this time? Certainly not from their Web site. Certainly not from their SEC filing and certainly not from searches of their patents. Perhaps this is a big story and I may miss being the first to report it, but I'm sorry, I need to see a lot more. We all remember Genesis World Energy, right? I've seen another website recently about an NGO that seems to really have their heart in the right place - but there's something weird about it, I can't quite put my finger on it. www.gifnet.org . Back to Innovative Energy Solutions, as soon as I kick out New Energy Times #9 I'll dig deeper into this. They have a main office in Vegas. I'm not opposed to driving out there any paying them a visit. Though I was told that they have intentionally kept a low profile so as to keep their lead from larger companies who could easily overpower them with massive resources. Seems reasonable. I have a few names and phone numbers to go on. If anybody digs up anything else interesting, I'll appreciate seeing that here. And whatever I turn up I'll kick it back to the community in New Energy Times #10. IES does seem to more transparent that GWE, posting their SEC filing and addresses and salaries of principals and such. I give them a lot of credit for that. Steve --=====================_785072359==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Good work Robin.

From their SEC filing (on their Web site)

Patents
1. Hydrogen Technology
1. Korean Patent Application No. 10-2002-0026277 "Energy Generating Device"
This patent has only been filed in Korean and has not been translated into English. The patent basically describes how the
manufactured prototype Hydrogen Energy unit works.

FWIW, as you notice, this is a patent pending. Their Web site does not say "pending." Perhaps it was granted after the SEC filing.

This too, from the filing:
2. Korean Patent Application No. 10-2002-0069231 "Apparatus for Generating Hydrogen Gas" Worldwide Patent Cooperation Treaties
(PCT) Patent No. KR2003/002395

Perhaps they may be found on the WIPO site if you have the time to look.


After spending hours searching the Korean patent database, I am
slowly coming to the conclusion that this is a disinformation
site.

I was told about this situation by two people who are leaders in the cold fusion community over the past few days. Honestly, I am up to my eyebrows in editing the next newsletter so I've not dedicated much time to digging into this yet, but I'm happy to share my view: I'm skeptical. Optimistic but skeptical. The words Jed used to title this thread were the same I heard from an informant, perhaps the same one. We are all hoping for the day the sun will shine from the little CF jar, myself included. I think it's important for all of us to always do our own thinking, no matter which prominent U.S. theorist decides to endorse a particular commercial enterprise.

This is one of the big lessons about cold fusion: Think for your (our) selves. Investigate and assess the facts and make up one's own decision. Perhaps this is a big breakthrough. How do we know that at this time? Certainly not from their Web site. Certainly not from their SEC filing and certainly not from searches of their patents. Perhaps this is a big story and I may miss being the first to report it, but I'm sorry, I need to see a lot more.

We all remember Genesis World Energy, right? I've seen another website recently about an NGO that seems to really have their heart in the right place - but there's something weird about it, I can't quite put my finger on it. www.gifnet.org .

Back to Innovative Energy Solutions, as soon as I kick out New Energy Times #9 I'll dig deeper into this. They have a main office in Vegas. I'm not opposed to driving out there any paying them a visit. Though I was told that they have intentionally kept a low profile so as to keep their lead from larger companies who could easily overpower them with massive resources. Seems reasonable. I have a few names and phone numbers to go on. If anybody digs up anything else interesting, I'll appreciate seeing that here.  And whatever I turn up I'll kick it back to the community in New Energy Times #10. IES does seem to more transparent that GWE, posting their SEC filing and addresses and salaries of principals and such. I give them a lot of credit for that.

Steve



--=====================_785072359==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 21:43:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j235gpgk015680; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:42:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j235gmvw015642; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:42:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:42:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050302214119.0578c3f0 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 21:47:26 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: RE: Article about Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050302112151.02bc9048 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050302080337.056557b8 mail.dlsi.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050302093044.02a0ff28 pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20050302080337.056557b8 mail.dlsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58224 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I have not studied the Wikipedia documentation. Is there a way to contact >the authors of these articles? I would like to send them a short note >pointing out a few of the problems and asking whether they would or would >not erase my contributions. Jed - the weird thing is that except for an IP address, and some authors who choose to identify themselves, its an anonymous free-for-all. If you spend some time (which I know you don't have) you may see patterns that reveal certain authors who seem like sysops, or sigops, to dredge out some Compuserve terms. These are the people who know how to play the game and who keep their pulse on the page. I decided a while ago that their sandbox was not very worthy of my energy. But starting a brand new page is a whole new ballgame. You may get to be the one calling the shots. s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 2 23:01:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2371Ngk015877; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:01:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2371KI2015857; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:01:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:01:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Big CF breakthrough reported Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 02:02:39 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58225 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robin & Steve, I too was disappointed when I went to KIPRIS and could not find the Korean documents. Granted, I can't read Korean, so all I hoped for was some diagrams, but nothing to be found. Don't get hung up on the zeros, as you can see from the search engine interface, they are optional. The website claims the documents are "filed" which means just that. Patents are numbered in so many ways, you just wouldn't believe it. I think if we can't find anything on KIPRIS we're not going to do much better elsewhere. That said, I had no problem finding the rest of the documents. They're Romanian, not Korean. Try RO112312 GAS-GAS TYPE HEAT EXCHANGERS WITH THERMIC TUBES as a sample. The inventor is listed on the website as having held a position at the University Transilvania, perhaps immortality has given him some insights into CF that we mere humans lack (grin). I would withhold judgement until we find out more. They clearly have some tangible sort of business here. K. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:32 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported In reply to Steven Krivit's message of Wed, 02 Mar 2005 16:38:00 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Korean patent > >On http://iesiusa.com/intellectual.html there is a list of >>patents, but I don't recognize the number format. Can someone >>help? 10-20020026277 would be particularly interesting. > > >:) > > >Steve After spending hours searching the Korean patent database, I am slowly coming to the conclusion that this is a disinformation site. First, the "patent nr." Patent No.10-2002006931 is actually missing a digit (supposed to be 7 digits following the year). Second, the other patent 10-20020026277 appears to relate to a "BASE STATION APPARATUS AND HANDOVER CONTROL METHOD". I have written to them, and asked for clarification. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 08:25:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23GP1gk029442; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:25:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23GOlmw029311; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:24:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:24:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00f101c52009$79823ca0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Hydro-polluter Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:55:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00EE_01C51FC6.6A1872E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58227 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00EE_01C51FC6.6A1872E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hydroelectric... a big greenhouse gas polluter ? http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-02/ns-hds022305.php ...estimates that in 1990 the greenhouse effect of emissions from the = Curu=E1-Una dam in Brazil, was more than three-and-a-half times what = would have been produced by generating the same amount of electricity = from oil... ------=_NextPart_000_00EE_01C51FC6.6A1872E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hydroelectric... a big greenhouse gas polluter ?
 
= http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-02/ns-hds022305.php
=
 
...estimates that in 1990 the greenhouse effect of emissions from = the=20 Curu=E1-Una dam in Brazil, was more than three-and-a-half times what = would have=20 been produced by generating the same amount of electricity from = oil...
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_00EE_01C51FC6.6A1872E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 08:44:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23Ghqgk008291; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:43:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23GaeE1003573; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:36:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:36:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001701c51ff1$18b1ebe0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050302163742.0574f430 mail.dlsi.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20050302163742.0574f430@mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20050302211607.088b0c70@mail.dlsi.net> Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:01:16 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C51FF1.15AFCF70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58228 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C51FF1.15AFCF70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.gifnet.org/ don't seem to be very scientifically literate = - look at this extract from their front page... ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C51FF1.15AFCF70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
http://www.gifnet.org/    don't seem to be very scientifically literate - = look at this=20 extract from their front page...
 
<With regard to = the highly=20 proclaimed new Hydrogen Economy and its proposed technology a fatal = omission is=20 deliberately maintained by the promoters of such systems. Hydrogen fuel = cells=20 are consuming Oxygen from the atmosphere to the extent that if all = existing=20 vehicles were today converted to hydrogen fuel cell technologies, it = would only=20 take 4-5 years before the oxygen in our atmosphere would be depleted = below human=20 survival levels>
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C51FF1.15AFCF70-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 08:51:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23GVths000915; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:50:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23GKImE027124; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:20:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:20:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050302220751.006a552c pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20050302220751.006a552c pop.freeserve.net> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 02:15:47 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <4LamQD.A.SnG._kzJCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58226 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Grimer posted >At 04:02 pm 02-03-05 -0500, Jed wrote: > > >would have written a scathing report saying this trip was a waste of time >>in the instrumentation is meaningless. It says: > > IMHO, if the device is producing a commercially feasible amount of energy, ten times the input energy, the instrumentation doesn't have to be too complex. > > >>"Report on Visit to IESI > >December 17th, 2004 > > >My understanding of the principle is that the Low Energy Nuclear Reaction >>is produced by cavitation of deuterium enriched water in the presence of a >>metal catalyst. In addition to cavitation, the reaction is accelerated >>significantly by the use of a resonating frequency in the reaction cell. The above technology sounds like the Piantelli patent. IMHO, Piantelli's technology was great, but Fiat Allis decided not to pursue it, and Dr. Piantelli didn't answer my emails. I've been expecting something like this. > >Cavitation, resonant frequency and catalyst could all combine in delivering >high pF. For the reasons I gave in my IE paper, that is at the basis, of CF >(and also of Mills hydrinos, incidently). Mill's problem is, he has the atoms >but not the bits, to use a Negropontean way of putting it. Incidently, I Based on what Mike Carrell said, Mills' problem is that it works, kind of, but it's complicated. >Sorry if all this seems terribly arrogant, but it's not as arrogant >as Mills ;-) Arrogance comes with being a genius. I read the IESI press release. Can someone explain what a heat recovery system has to do with a LENR process? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 09:20:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23HJUgk030865; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:19:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23HJOZQ030733; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:19:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:19:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005f01c51ff3$5d0d64c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050302163742.0574f430 mail.dlsi.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20050302163742.0574f430@mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20050302211607.088b0c70@mail.dlsi.net> Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 05:17:33 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58229 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve et al. > We all remember Genesis World Energy, right? I've seen another website > recently about an NGO that seems to really have their heart in the right > place - but there's something weird about it, I can't quite put my finger > on it. www.gifnet.org . Please! Do not confuse this company in any way with GWE. I have had some long talks with Nicholas Moller about the MAHG and find him to be extremely insightful and dedicated, and far away from the kind of scam that GWE has tried to perpetrate. Unfortunately the gifnet logo needs some work, as it gives the cheesy impression of new age utopia, which is not the case. That may be what you are trying to put your finger on, but I think that you have met Nicholas in France and may have forgotten it. This will be a big breakthrough when he gets it a little further along (self-powered). I posted this about Moller back in October before having the opportunity to talk to him. I believe that he has real OU now, but it is in the form of heat and his device is not yet self-powered. But there are indications that he has improved the device way over the performance listed online and that self-powered performance (to erase any doubt among skeptics) will be feasible. He had numerous problems with Frolov (do not !! have your prototype made by him) and in getting the machine out of Russia, but that should have been taken care of, hopefully. I hope to travel to Europe soon and take a look (don't we all!) but there is some open and fairly thorough work presented online, for anyone to see. [From an earlier posting edited, about the MAGH of Moller, as it appears on Naudin's site] You may remember this poser from a year ago: "Which is hotter - a.) burning hydrogen in oxygen, or b.) burning hydrogen in hydrogen?" Well, once again Naudin has managed to provide an answer, of sorts - this time in conjunction with the equally controversial Alex Frolov. See: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/mahg/mahg1.htm Which is a fairly elaborate experiment, apparently built by A. Frolov in Russia to the specs of Nicholas Moller, and showing a steady-state OU of 130% (COP =1.3) and higher on startup. Improvements are expected. It is based on the experiments of Langmuir, the inventor of a hydrogen "torch" as well as being the author of the most famous derogatory putdown imaginable to us perpmos, that being the one known far and wide as "pathological science." If you answered b) then you may be thinking about the hydrino, OR are already aware of an energy "anomaly" discovered almost 90 years ago, but is it overunity? Ironically, Nobel chemist Irving Langmuir (1881-1957) was in the habit of giving cautionary talks on "pathological science", saying "There are cases where there is no dishonesty involved, but where people are tricked into false results by a lack of understanding about what human beings can do to themselves in the way of being led astray by subjective effects, wishful thinking, or threshold interactions. These are examples of pathological science." Apparently, he failed to issue a reciprocal warning for pathological obedience to instituionalized orthodoxy, and indeed he may have deliberately overlooked one of the first well-recorded instances of overunity - and in his own work! What should it be called, "pathological tunnel vision" or "pathological neo-cecity" (for those who appreciate 'le mot juste') ? The old anomaly in question involves the thermal dissociation of hydrogen in an electric arc, and it was discovered by none other than Irving Langmuir himself. He noticed that dissociation of H2 in an electric arc led to a much higher dissociation rate than one might expect on the basis of known thermodynamics. He invented a cutting torch based on this discovery, which is seldom used today because of another consideration (hydrogen embrittlement of steel). Here is a picture of the torch. http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/AtomicH/atomicH.html Despite the risk of promoting even more of the dreaded pathological science (at the expense of old Irv), there is a good case to be made for OU in this device. The "textbook" binding energy of the hydrogen molecule is 4.52 eV. If one compares the ratio of the dissociated molecules to that of non-dissociated molecules in Langmuir's torch, it turns out that the effective binding energy works out to only a little over 1 eV for a substantial population of the molecules involved. Of course, the distribution is Maxwellian and we are only looking at that population on Boltzman's tail, but so what? The population of temporarily free protons is large (as much as a third, depending on assumptions) and the dissociation energy-deficit is so substantial that a "gateway" may exist for OU may here. Unfortunately, most of Langmuir's old articles like: "The Dissociation of Hydrogen Into Atoms," Journal of American Chemical Society 37, 417 (1915) are not available online. Apologists for this kind of energy deficit effect often use the term "borrowed" to explain it, but that explanation involves time-reversal which is only slightly more palatable to orthodoxy than is overunity. There is a lot of questionable information online about OU hydrogen plasmas like Professor Chernetskii's device (Hal Puthoff apparently visited Chernetskii in 1991 to witness the device maybe working, maybe not) and we all know about the Correa's "abnormal glow" but this is not intended to be a defense of that - only to offer a *non-hydrino* explanation, if any of these hydrogen plasma things ever turns out to be rock-solid proof of OU. The Langmuir torch suggests that the dissociation of the hydrogen molecule occurs with an "outside" or free-energy input of about 3.4 eV for a substantial percentage of the hydrogen molecules involved. This is a mass/energy level that keeps popping up over and over in reported free-energy anomalies, and it is related to a very real QM phenomenon - the energy of "virtual pairs". However, we know that even for the surprisingly long-lived virtual-pair molecule: positronium (Ps), the prospect of capturing positron free-energy from the vacuum seems pretty hopeless. Although this is true for the molecule itself, Heisenberg's door may be cracked open just far enough to admit, not the positron itself but its "wake". i.e. its 6.8 eV binding energy. This binding energy is but a tiny fraction of the positron or electron mass/energy of ~ .5 MeV, if they were to actually annihilate in our 3-space, but still it isn't too shabby, double what one gets from hydrogen/oxygen combustion. If it can be captured, it could be a consequence of positronium being disrupted by proximity to a bare proton before fading into someone else's 3-space. But why 3.4 eV and not 6.8 eV? Well, the best explanation for this that I can give at the moment is that we must assume that in every atom, there is a "medium" that keeps the electrons from collapse into the nucleus, and it is a gluon-like transfer medium. If so, in positronium it is probably a lepton pair with a mass/energy of 3.4 eV each which can either annihilate into a 6.8 eV photon, or preferentially be captured by any free proton, as a necessary predecessor event to molecular recombination. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 09:23:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23HMIgk000575; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:22:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23HLhmU032569; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:21:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:21:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001401c51fff$214eefb0$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Nevada Corporations and Texas rules Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:41:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C51FCC.BCC20AF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-98.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_22, J_CHICKENPOX_75,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58231 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C51FCC.BCC20AF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C51FCC.BCC51830" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C51FCC.BCC51830 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankUnder new Nevada law, a person(s) may register a new corporation = without disclosing almost anything except the name of the lawyer that = filed the registration. Deep pockets with savvy file in Bermuda through = the local British banker/attorney or half empty pockets file in the = Caymans. Friend just returned from the Caymans noting the banks are now = wall to wall. Yesterday was Texas Independence day, the day a 1835 document was signed = which explained to Mexico they were not the only people that could get a = divorce from Spain,, although Spain was having difficulty believing = Mexico was serious when they gave to papers to Spain back in 1810. = Meanwhile, an obscure politico named Sam Houston suspiciously left the = US congress, got a divorce and became a drunk living with indians in = around Oklahoma until he wound up in Texas just in time to blow the ink = dry on the declaration. El Presidente ( and Generale for life) Santa = Ana, took offense at someone trying to rape his chickens and steal his = women by promptly stomping the Alamo into dust along with the few fools = that would dare oppose a military force under officers trained at = Mexico's superb 200 year old military academy. Sweeping east from San = Antonio toward what was later to be Houston, the Mexicans stopped long = enough at Goliad to teach Col. Fannin and his troops how the game of = shooting fish in a barrel is played Mexico rules by granting surrender = terms of parole and shooting the ones that couldnt run fast enough to = dodge bullets. Meanwhile Sam was now a General leading his band of ragtag = farmer/settlers heading east ( the runaway scape) just ahead of the = Mexicans. Santa Ana chased Sam and his bunch all the way to the = Lynchburg ferry crossing ( San Jacinto)where he cornered the rabble band = in a horseshoe pocket with their backs to the river. Worn out, run down = like rabbits, cold, wet, demoralized and outnumbered perhaps 5 to 1 = with a well trained and blooded Mexican army looking down their guns at = a pitiful sight and a backup army marching from Velasco just to make = things more interesting WHEN.. something happened that later was = described as one of the most decisive victories in history. Santa Ana = was defeated, his troops literally wiped out and forced to sign a = treaty. There seems to be a consensus that Santa Ana was sleeping off a drug = induced seista that afternoon after gloating over the fun fixing to = happen when a bunch of horsemen with lances chase someone on foot. According to historians, the two cannon ( twin sisters) owned by the = Texans suddenly began to fire using wet powder and the ragtag band = shouted something in English the Mexicans couldn't understand which is a = terrible mistake to make to a a Texas policeman. Trying to separate fact from fiction has been a futile task ever since. = A few facts do emerge. Sam Houston was friend of Andy Jackson , the US prez. Andy Jackson = pulled the same type of victory over the British in 1812 at the battle = of New Orleans. Two US Navy gunboats sailed out of New Orleans just = before the battle at San Jacinto.Where these gunboats were headed is a = not part of the Navy records. The gun boats were capable of sailing up = the river and hiding in position in the dense undergrowth just behind = the horseshoe pocket where the Texans were trapped. Andy Jackson, like Tom Jefferson was part of the Manifest Destiny crowd = that believed it was the destiny of the USA to rule from sea to shining = sea regardless of what Spain had to say about it. Times in US politics didn't change much until after WW 1 when the = results of sending your kids to Harvard, Yale et.al. began to show up in = the bureaucracy in spades. These poor misguided kids now believe we = should start playing by UN rules and give it all back.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C51FCC.BCC51830 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Under new Nevada law, a person(s) may register = a new=20 corporation without disclosing almost anything except the name of the = lawyer=20 that filed the registration. Deep pockets with savvy file in Bermuda = through the=20 local British banker/attorney or half empty pockets file in the Caymans. = Friend=20 just returned from the Caymans noting the banks are now wall to=20 wall.
 
Yesterday was Texas Independence day, the day = a 1835=20 document was signed which explained to Mexico they were not the only = people that=20 could get a divorce from Spain,, although Spain was having difficulty = believing=20 Mexico was serious when they gave to papers to Spain back in 1810. = Meanwhile, an=20 obscure politico named Sam Houston suspiciously left the US = congress,  got=20 a divorce and became a drunk living with indians in around Oklahoma = until he=20 wound up in Texas just in time to blow the ink dry on the declaration. = El=20 Presidente ( and Generale for life) Santa Ana, took offense at = someone=20 trying to  rape his chickens and steal his women by promptly = stomping the=20 Alamo into dust along with the few fools that would dare oppose a = military force=20 under officers trained at Mexico's superb 200 year old military = academy. =20 Sweeping east from San Antonio toward what was later to be Houston, the = Mexicans=20 stopped long enough at Goliad to teach Col. Fannin and his troops how = the game=20 of  shooting fish in a barrel is played Mexico rules by granting = surrender=20 terms of parole and shooting the ones that couldnt  run fast enough = to=20 dodge bullets.
 
Meanwhile Sam was now a General leading his = band of=20 ragtag farmer/settlers  heading east ( the runaway scape) just = ahead of=20 the Mexicans. Santa Ana chased Sam and his bunch all the way = to the=20 Lynchburg ferry crossing ( San Jacinto)where he cornered the rabble = band in=20 a horseshoe pocket with their backs to the river. Worn out, run down = like=20 rabbits, cold, wet, demoralized and outnumbered  perhaps 5 to 1 = with a well=20 trained and blooded Mexican army looking down their guns at a pitiful = sight and=20 a backup army marching from Velasco just to make things more interesting = WHEN..=20 something happened that later was described as one of the most decisive=20 victories in history. Santa Ana was defeated, his troops literally wiped = out and=20 forced to sign a treaty.
There seems to be a consensus that Santa Ana = was=20 sleeping off a drug induced seista that afternoon after gloating over = the fun=20 fixing to happen when a bunch of horsemen with lances chase someone on=20 foot.
 
According to historians, the two cannon ( twin = sisters)=20 owned by the Texans suddenly began to fire using wet powder and the = ragtag band=20 shouted something in English the Mexicans couldn't understand which is a = terrible mistake to make to a a Texas policeman.
 
Trying to separate fact from fiction has been = a futile=20 task ever since. A few facts do emerge.
Sam Houston was friend of Andy Jackson , the = US prez.=20 Andy Jackson pulled the same type of victory over the British in 1812 at = the=20 battle of New Orleans. Two US Navy gunboats sailed out of New Orleans = just=20 before the battle at San Jacinto.Where these gunboats were headed is a = not part=20 of  the Navy records. The gun boats were capable of sailing up = the=20 river and hiding in position in the dense undergrowth just behind the = horseshoe=20 pocket where the Texans were trapped.
 
Andy Jackson, like Tom Jefferson was part of = the=20 Manifest Destiny crowd that believed it was the destiny of the USA to = rule from=20 sea to shining sea regardless of what Spain had to say about = it.
 
Times in US politics didn't change much until = after=20 WW 1 when the results of sending your kids to Harvard, Yale et.al. = began to=20 show up in the bureaucracy in spades. These poor misguided kids now = believe we=20 should start playing by UN rules and give it all back.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C51FCC.BCC51830-- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C51FCC.BCC20AF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000f01c51fff$0746f720$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C51FCC.BCC20AF0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 09:24:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23HNFgk001337; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:23:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23HLOn5032358; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:21:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:21:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050303121542.02b71728 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:20:42 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported In-Reply-To: References: <2.2.32.20050302220751.006a552c pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58230 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >IMHO, if the device is producing a commercially feasible amount of energy, >ten times the input energy, the instrumentation doesn't have to be too complex. I agree it does not have to be complex, but it has to be present. It is so easy to show 10 x input, why not do it? >The above technology sounds like the Piantelli patent. IMHO, Piantelli's >technology was great, but Fiat Allis decided not to pursue it, and Dr. >Piantelli didn't answer my emails. I've been expecting something like this. My Sources today say the gadget resembles Stringham's approach. *I* have been expecting someone to take Stringham's work and run with it. >Arrogance comes with being a genius. Except when it doesn't. Also, arrogance usually comes with being stupid. >I read the IESI press release. Can someone explain what a heat recovery >system has to do with a LENR process? It is simple. If you have one, you don't need the other. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 09:30:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23HU4gk006216; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:30:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23HSEag004660; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:28:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:28:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42274867.1000902 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:24:55 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050302163742.0574f430 mail.dlsi.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20050302163742.0574f430@mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20050302211607.088b0c70@mail.dlsi.net> <001701c51ff1$18b1ebe0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <001701c51ff1$18b1ebe0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58232 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You forget Nick, that hydrogen will be mainly obtained from water. As a result, each hydrogen atom that is produced is accompanied by the necessary oxygen for its conversion back to water. Regards, Ed Nick Palmer wrote: > > http://www.gifnet.org/ > don't seem to be very scientifically > literate - look at this extract from their front page... > > proposed technology a fatal omission is deliberately maintained by the > promoters of such systems. Hydrogen fuel cells are consuming Oxygen from > the atmosphere to the extent that if all existing vehicles were today > converted to hydrogen fuel cell technologies, it would only take 4-5 > years before the oxygen in our atmosphere would be depleted below human > survival levels> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 09:31:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23HVDgk007202; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:31:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23HTSKg005613; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:29:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:29:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 00:50:04 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: CF Expert? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58233 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:51 AM 3/3/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 02 Mar 2005 10:52:52 >-0900: >Hi, >[snip] >>It does say, "The kinetics of the process is unclear." though. The bubbles >>of methane form on grain boundaries, and this requires diffusion of the >>carbon. >[snip] >Perhaps, it is the methane which migrates after it is formed, not >the carbon before the methane is formed. The methane molecule would be a bit large to fit through the lattice. Here is an interesting table of atomic radii in angstroms: Atom Covalent bonded H 0.79 0.32 C 0.91 0.77 Si 1.46 1.11 The covalent radius of carbon, 0.77 angstroms, is slightly less that the stand-alone atomic radius of hydrogen, 0.79 angstroms. Adsorbed hydrogen generally does not have room to fit in a lattice site, though it is close, and this is evidenced by the degree of metal swelling as 1-1 hydrogen loading is approached. The ionically bonded electron associated with the adsorbed hydrogen nucleus forms a "partial orbital" which maintains pressure on the lattice, and vice versa. By partial orbital it is meant a fairly large probability of finding the paired electron in an orbital and the complimentary probability of finding the paired electron in a conduction band. The adsorbed hydrogen volume is thus slightly reduced from that of an atom with a 0.79 angstrom radius. Now for some conjectures. It is notable that the covalent carbon radius is slightly less than the hydrogen atomic radius. This means that carbon should be able to diffuse through a lattice about as easily as hydrogen, provided adjacent metal atoms can easily exchange covalent bonds with the carbon so as to allow it to advance when a pressure gradient is present, as in the close vicinity to a crack in the metal. It seems like some ways to reduce hydrogen embrittlement might be to avoid carbon steels, or alloys having metals the form hydrides, like Ni or Pd. Also, quenching in liquids conatining hydrogen or carbon may not be so good. It may be that LN would be a good quenching agent, but since it has an atomic radius of only 0.75 angstroms, it would be suspect for forming ammonia bubbles in a hydrogen loaded lattice similar in properties to methane bubbles. Silicon can form silane gas, similar to methane. However, silicon's atomic and covalent radii prevent it from diffusing. Silicon steels thus migth be a good choice for avoiding fast embrittlement if other bad things are not present in the alloy. If hydrogen can get into any material, however, it just seems like some lattice damage is likely to result. One way to keep hydrogen out is to impose a barrier. For room temperature applications a copper coating might do the trick. Copper can readily adsorb H at 600 deg. C though, and if quickly cooled lots of tiny spherical bubbles of hydrogen are formed in the copper. This might offer a useful way to prepare CF electrodes for bombardment, by loading at high temperature and cooling prior to particle or x-ray bombardment or other fusion triggering means. It also raises the question of what additional or unsuspected metals might be CF active at ceramic oven temperatures. New possibilites for annealing and reloading are also provided by use of high temperatures. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 09:46:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23HjWgk018087; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:45:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23Hfo8I015361; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:41:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:41:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050303123117.02bc30f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:36:33 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported In-Reply-To: <42274867.1000902 ix.netcom.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050302163742.0574f430 mail.dlsi.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330 pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20050302163742.0574f430 mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20050302211607.088b0c70 mail.dlsi.net> <001701c51ff1$18b1ebe0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> <42274867.1000902 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <2iwCc.A.qvD.dx0JCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58234 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >You forget Nick, that hydrogen will be mainly obtained from water. As a >result, each hydrogen atom that is produced is accompanied by the >necessary oxygen for its conversion back to water. Nick was quoting the The Global Institute for New Energy Technologies web site. (http://www.gifnet.org/) Imagine publishing an idiotic statement like that in a web site ostensibly devoted to energy. Your credibility is reduced to zero. This is a comic book level analysis, like when Superman flies up and then pushes on the earth to make it stop turning. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 09:57:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23Hv4gk027868; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:57:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23HurN8027771; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:56:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:56:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050303125530.02a970c8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:56:23 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Message to Roger Stringham Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_14741562==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58237 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_14741562==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed [I predict this will fall on deaf ears. - JR] Subject: This company is about to market a variation of your process Roger: Here is the website of a company that has reportedly developed a variation of your technique, employing a Pd-Rh alloy. http://iesiusa.com/ This web site is not impressive, but I have heard that some of the leading CF researchers have visited the company and they confirm the results. If you sit on your invention long enough someone is bound to reinvent it, run with it, and take it away from you. I think you should make every effort to show it to other people, put samples into other people's hands, and convince the world that what you have is real. - Jed --=====================_14741562==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" [I predict this will fall on deaf ears. - JR]

Subject: This company is about to market a variation of your process

Roger:

Here is the website of a company that has reportedly developed a variation of your technique, employing a Pd-Rh alloy.

http://iesiusa.com/

This web site is not impressive, but I have heard that some of the leading CF researchers have visited the company and they confirm the results.

If you sit on your invention long enough someone is bound to reinvent it, run with it, and take it away from you. I think you should make every effort to show it to other people, put samples into other people's hands, and convince the world that what you have is real.

- Jed
--=====================_14741562==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 10:05:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23I4igk001111; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:04:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23I49Bb000711; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:04:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:04:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <014501c5201b$1983c8c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050302163742.0574f430 mail.dlsi.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20050302163742.0574f430@mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20050302211607.088b0c70@mail.dlsi.net> <001701c51ff1$18b1ebe0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <42274867.1000902@ix.netcom.com> <001601c5201a$04e481d0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:02:00 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58238 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey guys Give the guy a break. You can cleary see the "Coming Soon" at the top of the page. None of the links are active. The site is under construction. This errata and others will be removed. It was not suposed to have been noticed yet. Steve was mistaken to even mention it. The site was put up just for testing. I hope they change the logo first of all. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 10:38:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23IaDgk021264; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:37:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23IY8AZ019910; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:34:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:34:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5201E.B9338D0D" Subject: RE: Hydro-polluter Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:27:57 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF45D CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Hydro-polluter Thread-Index: AcUgDbmCcu3T3PMZROa3w3FvbW2k2QAEGHiA From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Mar 2005 18:27:54.0514 (UTC) FILETIME=[B73B1F20:01C5201E] Resent-Message-ID: <8m89-.A.82E.fi1JCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58239 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5201E.B9338D0D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Global warming doomsayers are also adding to the greenhouse dilemma = since they emit CO2 as long as they're alive. Vegetarians are hurting the environment by emitting methane = after eating beans. =20 ________________________________ From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:56 AM To: vortex Subject: Hydro-polluter=20 Hydroelectric... a big greenhouse gas polluter ? =20 http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-02/ns-hds022305.php =20 ...estimates that in 1990 the greenhouse effect of emissions from the = Curu=E1-Una dam in Brazil, was more than three-and-a-half times what = would have been produced by generating the same amount of electricity = from oil... =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5201E.B9338D0D Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Global = warming doomsayers=20 are also adding to the greenhouse dilemma since they emit CO2 as long as = they're
alive.  Vegetarians are hurting the = environment by emitting methane after eating beans.  =

From: Jones Beene = [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]=20
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:56 AM
To:=20 vortex
Subject: Hydro-polluter

Hydroelectric... a big greenhouse gas polluter ?
 
= http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-02/ns-hds022305.php
=
 
...estimates that in 1990 the greenhouse effect of emissions from = the=20 Curu=E1-Una dam in Brazil, was more than three-and-a-half times what = would have=20 been produced by generating the same amount of electricity from = oil...
 
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C5201E.B9338D0D-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 10:46:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23IUqhs017707; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:45:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23Hsdic025472; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:54:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:54:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001601c5201a$04e481d0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050302163742.0574f430 mail.dlsi.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050302153518.02997330@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20050302163742.0574f430@mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20050302211607.088b0c70@mail.dlsi.net> <001701c51ff1$18b1ebe0$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> <42274867.1000902@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:54:13 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58236 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yes Ed, that is the point I was making - that THEY at gifnet do not seem to appreciate this fact. In fact they are suffering from the same delusion that appears to afflict many promoters of the hydrogen economy i.e. that free hydrogen can be found somewhere in the environment and used as a fuel From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 10:46:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23IUqhu017707; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:46:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23HokQK022426; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:50:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:50:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=58RemAch0/TwvUxYgv+cSv6nb0FzWBxZIGxFgJYyBKmt4Sg8yNUQ/qOMhy4c4NJ/kYrBmJ6veE5jg/qyP/oBhZ9wtFzUNgUUfJp7sPbXRvx6BZla7/Zu0QUkGDFPyVOH3bY55sYxSObuq1jMA+z24RkduN8IF0ffPPPlWjUJmq0= ; Message-ID: <20050303150311.75325.qmail web60305.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:03:11 -0800 (PST) From: Nick Reiter Subject: Wisp update To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <00eb01c51c70$f520a780$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58235 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gentlemen, It seemed like it was about time for a short update on experiments with the little Wisp reactor (plasma electrolysis). Been a couple of months now. When we last left our hero, the Wisp, I had reported on pretty modest results, as far as thermometry and radiation detection. In conversation at that time, Sam Faile and I agreed with the majority opinion here on vortex that thermometry of potentially anomalous heat evolution was probably far better an indicator of LENR than blips from a homebrew neutron detection scheme. In runs made since then, I have continued to use a BN disc detector with my Geiger counter, but haven't gone too much further with any better scheme (on the budget available) The course of action has been to continue looking for anomalies pure and simple, whether it be jumps in temperature, odd colored plasma, odd deviations in power consumed. This methodology has been applied to an ongoing search for optimum materials that are robust to the ferocious plasma at the cathode, even with modest power levels of 50 to 100 watts. Even our 26 ga. platinum wire cathode gets beat up and is slowly pockmarking itself into oblivion. We took some suggestions tendered here, and tried some stainless steel hypodermic needles. Bright blue fierce plasma, and one that seemed to give some short burst response from the GM, but not sustainable for more than about 3 minutes. Needles eroded away. We tried a 650nm 5mW laser shined down the center of a hypodermic needle cathode, and at various orientations to the Pt wire cathode. Did not see anything resembling a deviation from previous behavior and values. One cathode material that seemed to hold up better than stainless and nickel, though not quite as well as Pt, was sintered polycrystalline silicon carbide, dremel ground down to a point. The SiC seems to hold up to the temperature, but I think infiltration and acoustic forces shatter it apart grain by grain. Maybe a single crystal SiC cathode would hold up indefinitely. The plasma color with SiC was different - odd - a bright sun-like yellow white. Nice and stable, though. I had also made some runs using a 1/16" stainless sheath thermocouple as the cathode - similar to what I had reported doing from the very early days exploring this phenomenon. These latest runs though were intended to compare temperatures reached by the cathode, for heavy and normal water K2CO3 solutions. They weren't all that definitive - a lot of jumpiness on the TC at higher powers... originating (my guess) from RFI due to the cathodic plasma. If I stretched myself way out there, there may have been about a 10% greater terminal temperature achieved for the D2O solution... however jumpiness AND possible differences in thermal conductivity of D2O solutions versus H2O solutions (which I still do not have good reference data for) make it quite iffy. Being able to run a plasma electrolysis reactor for more than about 10 minutes seems to be about the biggest challenge of all. Tungsten erodes, nickel erodes, SiC spalls mechanically, stainless erodes, platinum holds up but takes a beating. Sam and I have considered springing soon for some .005" iridium wire ($80 for 10 cm from Alfa Aesar) I'm also looking for single crystal moissanite silicon carbide that could be diamond ground into a cathode point. And thats where we are. Best regards, Nick Reiter __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 10:54:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23Iqugk001060; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:54:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23IqbKd000853; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:52:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:52:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: "Bothwell, David" Subject: RE: Revolution 50 Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:50:43 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002B_01C51FEF.9CE07E10" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <1995A8F5C7AD304080659AD2BA95B5DC0C3986 nd-serv2.nd-domain.nanodynamics.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58241 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C51FEF.9CE07E10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello David, Very nice to hear back from you. There are many possibilities for such a device, but investing any time into applying the technology requires a better understanding of the operation dynamics of the device; it's strengths, it's weaknesses, etc. Having been disappointed before, I try not to get too excited about stuff like this until I have a chance to 'kick the tires' if you will. That is my primary interest in getting a unit. Where do you expect the price point to be on your first product release? What is your price point goal once you establish efficient production? Do you publish a regular news letter to keep interested parties informed of your developments? If so I would like to be kept in the loop. -john -----Original Message----- From: Bothwell, David [mailto:dbothwell nanodynamics.com] Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 8:19 AM To: johnsteck tetrahelix.com Subject: RE: Revolution 50 I am the Director for the Energy Systems division of NanoDynamics, Inc. Our Energy Systems Division is responsible for the development and manufacture of a Microtubular Solid Oxide Fuel Cell, (MSOFC). Our first product release is focused on applications requiring 50 to 300 watts of power and is capable of operating on propane. We are weeks away from having our Revolution 50 prototype completed. At this point we will begin Alpha and then Beta testing. Early pre-production prototype versions of the Revolution 50 should be available sometime around the second half of this year. As a result market pricing has not been established yet. We are planning to have fully released production versions ready around the new year of 2006. The current prototype unit will produce 50 watts at 12 volts and will operate for 36 hours on a 14 oz tank of propane. The prototype system with fuel weighs less than 10 pounds, (4.4 kgs), is 12 inches high, 9 inches wide, and 6 inches deep at its widest point. Further development will reduce the weight and volume. If you have applications where you would like to increase your operating run time, (endurance), and batteries are not meeting your needs then a small fuel cell could provide the power and endurance you require. I would very much welcome an opportunity to discuss our fuel cell concept, the status of our demonstration unit, the potential for this product, and any other matters that are of interest to your organization. If you have an application for this fuel cell I would be glad to discuss the requirements with you so that we can determine the applicability of the fuel cell as it relates to your application as well as the business marketing requirements. Thank you for your interest. David Bothwell Director-NDEnergy NanoDynamics, Inc. (716) 853-4900 ext 301 -----Original Message----- From: John Steck [mailto:johnsteck tetrahelix.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 1:48 AM To: ND Energy Subject: RevolutionT 50 Hello, What is the current commercial/research availability of the RevolutionT 50? -john ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ John Steck High Impact Product Development Services DESIGN - ENGINEERING - MANUFACTURING - MARKETING ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction, and skillful execution. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C51FEF.9CE07E10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello=20 David,
Very=20 nice to hear back from you.  There are many possibilities for such = a=20 device, but investing any time into applying the technology requires a = better=20 understanding of the operation dynamics of the device; it's strengths, = it's=20 weaknesses, etc.  Having been disappointed before, I try not to get = too=20 excited about stuff like this until I have a chance to 'kick the tires' = if you=20 will.  That is my primary interest in getting a = unit.
 
Where do you expect the price point to be=20 on your first product release?  What is your price = point=20 goal once you establish efficient production? 
 
Do you publish a regular news letter to keep = interested=20 parties informed of your developments?  If so I would like to be = kept in=20 the loop.
 
-john
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Bothwell, David=20 [mailto:dbothwell nanodynamics.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 03, = 2005=20 8:19 AM
To: johnsteck tetrahelix.com
Subject: RE: = Revolution=20 50

I am the Director for the Energy Systems = division of=20 NanoDynamics, Inc. 

 

Our Energy Systems Division is responsible for = the=20 development and manufacture of a Microtubular Solid Oxide Fuel Cell,=20 (MSOFC).  Our first product release is focused on applications = requiring 50=20 to 300 watts of power and is capable of operating on = propane.

 

We are weeks away from having our Revolution = 50=20 prototype completed.  At this point we will begin Alpha and then = Beta=20 testing.

 

Early pre-production prototype versions of the = Revolution 50 should be available sometime around the second half of = this=20 year.  As a result market pricing has not been established = yet.  We=20 are planning to have fully released production versions ready around the = new=20 year of 2006.

 

The current prototype unit will produce 50 = watts at 12=20 volts and will operate for 36 hours on a 14 oz tank of propane.  = The=20 prototype system with fuel weighs less than 10 pounds, (4.4 kgs), is 12 = inches=20 high, 9 inches wide, and 6 inches deep at its widest point.  = Further=20 development will reduce the weight and volume. 

 

If you have applications where you would like = to=20 increase your operating run time, (endurance), and batteries are not = meeting=20 your needs then a small fuel cell could provide the power and endurance = you=20 require.

 

I would very much welcome an opportunity to = discuss our=20 fuel cell concept, the status of our demonstration unit, the potential = for this=20 product, and any other matters that are of interest to your = organization. =20 If you have an application for this fuel cell I would be glad to discuss = the=20 requirements with you so that we can determine the applicability of the = fuel=20 cell as it relates to your application as well as the business marketing = requirements.

 

Thank you for your interest.

 

 

David Bothwell

Director-NDEnergy

NanoDynamics, Inc.

(716) 853-4900 ext 301

-----Original Message-----
From: John Steck = [mailto:johnsteck tetrahelix.com]
Sent: Wednesday, = March 02,=20 2005 1:48 AM
To: ND Energy
Subject: RevolutionT 50

 

Hello,

What is the current commercial/research = availability of=20 the Revolution™ 50?

 

-john

 

~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~

  John Steck

  High Impact Product Development=20 Services

  DESIGN - ENGINEERING - MANUFACTURING -=20 MARKETING

~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~

 

 Quality is never an accident; it is = always=20 the

 result of high intention, sincere=20 effort,

 intelligent direction, and skillful=20 execution.

 

------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C51FEF.9CE07E10-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 10:58:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23Iubgk003617; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:57:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23IuN2m003429; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:56:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:56:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:49:53 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58242 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:24 AM 3/3/5, Edmund Storms wrote: >You forget Nick, that hydrogen will be mainly obtained from water. As a >result, each hydrogen atom that is produced is accompanied by the >necessary oxygen for its conversion back to water. I think that was Nick's point too. Also of interest is the fact that even if the primary source of energy for the hydrogen is methane gas, and the carbon is sequestered, there is a lot more oxygen around than the web site indicates. Using 15 lb/in^2 air pressure, that's rho = 1.055x10^4 kg/m^2 of atmosphere above the earth's surface. Using 6378 km as earth's radius R, we have area A = 4 Pi R^2 = 5.11x10^14 m^2. Total mass of the atmosphere is M_atmos = Rho * A = 5.39x10^18 kg. Total mass of oxygen is roughly 1/5 that or about 1.078x10^18 kg. We can afford to lose about 1/3 of that before life gets tough, or about 3.59x10^17 kg. Using H2 + 0.5 O2 -> H2O + 228 kJ/mol, we get 228 kJ per 16 g of oxygen burned, or 1.425x10^7 J/kg of O2 burned, or 1.35x10^4 Btu/kg. Since world energy consumption is about 400 quads, or 400x10^15 Btu, that's (4x10^17 Btu)/(1.35x10^4 Btu/kg) = 3.08x10^13 kg of O2 consumption per year. That gives us a time T of about T = (3.59x10^17 kg)/(3.08x10^13 kg/yr) = 1.166x10^4 yrs, or about 11,660 years to get there. I would expect at least humans to adapt in that time, but who knows? I hope I got all that right. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 11:19:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23JHFgk015143; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:18:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23JH2cJ015029; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:17:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:17:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:14:53 -0500 From: George Holz Subject: Re: Wisp update To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <00c501c52025$47aa2960$6501a8c0 geh> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <20050303150311.75325.qmail web60305.mail.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58243 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Nick, Perhaps you might find small solid carbide end mills or carbide drill bits useful as electrodes. They need to have high mechanical strength and appear to have a very dense fine crystal structure compared to abrasive cutters. The drill bits are available in very small diameters. How high a temperature do you read on the enclosed thermocouple cathodes? Regards, George Holz Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 11:29:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23JS5gk020884; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:29:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23JRvQL020782; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:27:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:27:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050303142359.02a91610 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:25:59 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_20121265==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58244 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_20121265==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed A Friend wrote to me: "The people I know who have been [to visit IESI] and seen the equipment can't say anything other than there are big objects making lots of noise but no data is apparent or being offered. It smells strongly of Potopov to me." - Jed --=====================_20121265==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" A Friend wrote to me:

"The people I know who have been [to visit IESI] and seen the equipment can't say anything other than there are big objects making lots of noise but no data is apparent or being offered. It smells strongly of Potopov to me."

- Jed
 --=====================_20121265==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 11:37:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23JXbhC024246; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:37:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23InhRX031402; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:49:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:49:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=pNaN01iaHnO2ukDZwV5VfIiLWn3CAUfKLS5EaRzDkbTlxWq195UvNggAJfJmENRDgiXrkvqmE+6V1TIdVaJ57/sEA4JcSO2HEsb+KtEY+p+k7lv0GrpXp9ht1GeM6StKPjqi0cSGiiJN77IH8clasVfCZ9IgyxIiOexjipNpfIA= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:47:07 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydro-polluter In-Reply-To: <00f101c52009$79823ca0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <00f101c52009$79823ca0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j23ImCgk030219 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58240 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: please. yes, theres a release. but of less than what the plant matter took in in the first place. its not millenia of built up co2, its recent co2, and lets not forget that a lot of the plant co2 remains in solution, feeding alage and the like, and more stays in sludge at the bottom. in addition, as the levels fluctuate, plants grow than are drowned at the waters edge. this causes a cycling. its the same c02, coming in and going out. its like claiming that the c02 emmitted by corn made alchohol burning is damaging... On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:55:49 -0800, Jones Beene wrote: > Hydroelectric... a big greenhouse gas polluter ? > > http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-02/ns-hds022305.php > > ...estimates that in 1990 the greenhouse effect of emissions from the > Curuá-Una dam in Brazil, was more than three-and-a-half times what would > have been produced by generating the same amount of electricity from oil... > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 12:22:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23KKYgk026467; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:21:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23KKGxP026176; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:20:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:20:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050303111423.006811fc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:14:23 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Permeabivity Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58245 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Some years ago I posted to various discussion groups which were taken over by Google who are now ruining the layout (thank heavens for Vortex - though I do wish Vorts would stick to the text only rule). There was one post on Dimensional Analysis (as relating to permeability and permittivity) that I wanted to dig up. Unfortunately, I couldn't for then life of me remember when I wrote it or which of the many physics groups I'd sent it to. All I could remember was that I had used the pseudonym, Theresa [my daughter's name and an anagram of aethers (grin)] and that it would have the word dimension in it. Thanks to googling I was able to find it in 10 seconds flat. I am pasting it below because of its relevance to another post I am preparing on the relation of the Beta-atmosphere/aether to EM potentials. It will be more convenient to refer to it in the Vortex Archive rather than to have to give a URL for the google site where it is accompanied by distracting stuff in both margins. Cheers Frank ================================================== Subject: The Mother and Father of all Lights f.grimer Feb 26 1999, 12:00 am Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity From: f.gri... grimer2.freeserve.co.uk I have a problem that may interest the readers of this newsgroup since it relates to the speed of electromagnetic radiation. For simplicity, I will use the word light to represent all wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation both shorter and longer than those of visible radiation. >From a practical point of view the speed of light is a variable. By this I mean that its effective speed varies in different media. In this respect it is not unlike the speed of sound. Sound’s speed also varies from one media to another. Paradoxically, light has its highest speeds in what to us is relatively intangible stuff. Its speed in air is hardly less than its speed in the vacuum of outer space. It would be difficult to imagine anything more intangible than the atmospheric vacuum of outer space. With sound on the other hand it's the other way around. Roughly speaking the more tangible things are, the faster sound travels. I once read of someone who calculated how fast sound would be transmitted across an atomic nucleus. I think the speed turned out to be faster than the speed of light. Not really surprising considering the fantastic density of a nucleus. No doubt some reader will supply the actual speed if he knows it. It is rather interesting that sound and light are the inverse, so to speak, of each other. It is as though, John Sound lives on the 13th floor with all his walls painted black, and all his furniture painted white, whilst Janet Light lives on the 12th floor with all her walls painted white, and all her furniture painted black. It is as though, like Janet and John themselves, their rooms are complementary. It is as though light and sound are the yin and the yang of information communication. Another interesting similarity between sound and light is the equation that relates speed to other physical properties. This equation is of the form X = (Y.Z)^(0.5) Or in words, X is the geometric mean of Y and Z. One could hardly think of a much simpler relationship than that. I suppose it could be argued that, X = ( Y + Z ) /2 is even simpler since it’s easier to add than to multiply, and though division is harder than either, finding a square root is harder still. How can we clad the naked symbols of this simple Son et Lumiere relationship with garments to stimulate new views? How can we flesh out this skeletal equation to give our imaginations something to get hold of, something to generate new ideas? If we are going to flesh out things then it seems to me that the best flesh to use is our own. We will let our hair down, loosen up and have a go. Let’s view the equation as an organic process, the X as generated by the Y and the Z, as the offspring of the marrying of the Y and Z by the multiplication sign. Everyone loves a wedding. Also, since roots are organic things, that helps the imagery along. I must confess though, I’ve never seen a square one. Let’s imagine that Y and Z are the Mother and Father of X. Perhaps Z could be the father snoozing in his armchair while Y is the mother holding up her hands in horror because their offspring, X, is putting the cat in the microwave.. Armed with this whimsy let’s consider the equation for the speed of light, an equation with which all readers of this newsgroup will certainly be familiar. light speed = sqr.rt (permeability x permittivity) or c = (u.e)^0.5 Now at this point I get a hunch that something’s not quite right. Oh the equation works all right. I know that. But somehow I get the feeling that the magnetic mother, u, and the electric father, e, are not getting on very well. They seem to be at odds with each other. And their child, c, doesn’t look at all happy about it. Let's see if we can find out what the trouble is using the technique of dimensional analysis. Let’s stump up the money for a trip to the dimen-analyst. In the technique of dimensional analysis Mass, Length and Time are conventionally take as the fundamental dimensions. Other qualities such as Force, Energy, Power and so on are expressed in terms of these three. It must be emphasized that Mass, Length and Time are only conventionally fundamental, not fundamentally fundamental, if you get my meaning. Other choices of fundamental dimensions are possible; and in some cases more convenient. The choice one makes relates to the particular problem under study. I suppose one could say that it’s all a question of relativity. Not Special Relativity though; or General Relativity either; just ordinary commonal garden relativity, with a small r ;-). I recommend any reader who does not understand the previous paragraph to read a book on dimensional analysis if he wants to fully appreciate the next section. As for readers who believe in the fundamental nature of mass, length and time as firmly as they believe in their God (or gods), then I suggest they delete this post now. I wouldn’t want to endanger their simple faith. When one expresses the dimensions of permeability and permittivity in terms of [M]ass , [L]ength and [T]ime one finds that they are very different creatures. Not the type of people likely to get on with each other in fact. No wonder their kid is out of sorts; all screwed up as you Americans might put it. Now let's lead c's mother and father gently into the dimen-analyst’s consulting rooms for some marriage guidance counseling. Combining the two words, permeability and permittivity with no space in between them gives permeabilitypermittivity . Since this is a bit of a mouthful we can take the permeab- bit of permeability and the -ivity part of permittivity to give us Permeabivity, the name for the Mother and Father united, the name for the couple as one. To emphasize that it is a group name, and because it’s easy to get it confused with the two other names, I’ve given Permeabivity a capital letter, as you can see. To recap, we now have, the equation light speed = the square root of Permeabivity, I’ve not bothered to put this equation in symbols as well as words. To do so would mean introducing a new symbol for Permeabivity and that could lead to confusion. We can now write down the dimensions for the property, the quality, of Permeabivity, in terms of the conventionally fundamental dimensions, the properties, the qualities, of mass, length and time. When we do this we notice that some of the dimensions are redundant. In other words they appear in both the denominator and the numerator. If we treat these dimensions in the same way as we treat letters in algebra we can simplify the expression by cancellation, just as we would in algebra. If there is an [L] in the numerator and another [L] in the denominator we can cancel them. Likewise with the [M]s; and likewise with the [T]s. After all the cancellations are completed the dimensions of Permeabivity simplify down to [L].[L] in the numerator and [T].[T] in the denominator. So the simplified conventional fundamental dimensions of the Permeabivity dimension are:- [L]^2 / [T]^2 In purified dimensional terms then, the speed of light is sqr.rt ([L]^2 / [T]^2). Having aggregated the dimensions of permeability and permittivity to give the dimension of Permeabivity and purified those dimensions by cancellation of redundancy, we can now reverse the process. We can now dis-aggregate the dimension of Permeabivity to give us... To give us what? To give us ([L]/[T]) . ([L]/[T]) To give us two speeds, a Mother speed and a Father speed. So now we can write, C = sqr.rt ( Cm . Ce ) (I’ve switched to upper case letters for speeds so that I can us lower case letters as suffices.) C is the speed of light Cm is a speed associated with magnetism Ce is a speed associated with electricity Now the idea that the interaction of two speeds should give rise to another speed seems eminently reasonable. After all, the father and mother of a rabbit are both rabbits. You don’t get a rabbit by mating a cat with a mouse, do you? Exactly the same procedure can be carried out on the equation for the speed of sound. It’s somewhat simpler since there are fewer dimensions to deal with. I like to think of the process as a kind of Dimensional Chemistry comprising three stages combination - purification - fractionation. A bit like making whiskey really. Are there examples of an overall speed being the combination of two partial speeds? There are plenty. The speed of the Pony Express Mail Service is a combination of the speed of the pony and the speed of the rider handing over the mail at the staging post. Even in a relay race the runners presumably slow down somewhat when handing over the baton. The question I would like readers to consider is this. Are there any physical (as opposed to mathematical) examples where an overall speed is a geometric mean of two other speeds. I realize that those of you who regard the speed of light in a vacuum as sacrosanct might not want to even consider such a question because of its obvious implications. However, since exactly the same question arises for sound you may be prepared to lend your manifest intellectual prowess to the lesser problem. ;-) -- Theresa -- ================================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 12:23:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23KLTgk027251; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:22:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23KLEU3027038; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:21:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:21:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050303122207.04e7ddb8 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:24:24 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Big CF breakthrough reported In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050303142359.02a91610 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58246 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Potopov is before my time. Can you say just a word or two about it? It worked? Didn't work? Status unknown? Thanks, Steve At 02:25 PM 3/3/2005 -0500, you wrote: >A Friend wrote to me: > >"The people I know who have been [to visit IESI] and seen the equipment >can't say anything other than there are big objects making lots of noise >but no data is apparent or being offered. It smells strongly of Potopov to me." > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 12:36:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23KYpgk002710; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:36:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23KYhON002636; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:34:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:34:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=JwrK+n5pViv5F5TqgdB2briKeBeo8Zc/U/M8PLO1b2P0BkUd6+mP9sL0GfU3iEXnLZ8Fnb+GkxB18rxzPevzkQqq7ouxIhbzJ6Q+Sb/F8Ht6dg4P1iZJ75CfPBrCTqezD0yBuUmfKgKbm42wyPfZaGSLqpdTns11FPcaGVtdsrw= ; Message-ID: <20050303202123.80378.qmail web60310.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:21:23 -0800 (PST) From: Nick Reiter Subject: Re: Wisp update To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58247 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: George, Thats a good suggestion. Unlike the stainless or nickel or tungsten cathodes, the SiC looked like rather than having been corroded or burned away, it was sort of spalled or broken apart. So once mechanical stability is assured, (as with a mill or drill that is hex-SiC coated) some really good performance might be noted. During the TC sheath runs, the plateau temperature given about 100 watts, and the mass of the couple, ended up between 400 and 450C typically. (Averaged out over LOTS of noise) Very jumpy. Toward the end of the D2O run, I cranked the voltage up to about 75V and as the plasma went to pinkish white, I saw some sporadic momentary jumps up past 850C. I'm sure the actual temperature at the plasma interface was phantastically higher, but the temp as read by the nested couple buried in MgO within the stainless sheath was attenuated. NR --- George Holz wrote: > Hi Nick, > > Perhaps you might find small solid carbide end mills > > or carbide drill bits useful as electrodes. They > need to > have high mechanical strength and appear to have a > very dense > fine crystal structure compared to abrasive cutters. > The drill bits are available in very small > diameters. > > How high a temperature do you read on the enclosed > thermocouple cathodes? > > Regards, > George Holz > Varitronics Systems > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 13:59:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23Lwmgk008802; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:58:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23LwhHf008773; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:58:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:58:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050303165721.02c0b018 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:58:29 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Message sent to wikipedia editor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_29265937==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58249 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_29265937==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Your article on cold fusion has a strong POV, for obvious reasons Dear Mr. Wales, Greetings. I work as an editor and translator for a group of roughly 200 retired scientists and university professors who are working on cold fusion energy. I maintain a web page on the subject: http://lenr-canr.org/ (It has a contentious headline at present, but that is only temporary. For the past two years we have avoided political statements of this nature, and we expect our disagreement with the DoE to be resolved soon.) Your article on cold fusion expresses a strongly partisan point of view, which is contrary to your published policy. This is probably unavoidable. Cold fusion is a very contentious field, and most professional scientists believe the effect does not exist. Although your article is more open-minded and comprehensive than statements published by the Scientific American and some other mainstream journals, cold fusion researchers still feel it is biased. Some of my colleagues have attempted to change the article, but these changes have been deleted by skeptics. I understand that you can "lock" articles, making them read-only, and you can impose a measure of informal editing or peer-review. Because cold fusion is so controversial, and there is such hostile skeptical opposition to it, and because those who support it are a small minority in the scientific community, I suggest you do so in this case. I am in contact with all of the major researchers in this field, including the discoverer Professor Martin Fleischmann. If you can offer reassurances that contributions written by these researchers will not be erased or defaced, I would be happy to write some material representing their point of view. Here is what I propose to do: I will write a revised version of your article, but before I upload it, I will circulate it to the researchers whose papers I cite in the footnotes, to confirm that I have accurately described their work. I will not delete any of the skeptical comments now in your article, although I may modify them slightly for clarity and to show that they are, in fact, skeptical. I would be quite willing to circulate the draft to whoever wrote the skeptical comments, to be sure their point of view is accurately represented. This would be a lot of work. Frankly I am not inclined to do it unless you can offer assurances that my efforts will not be trashed and erased. Nor will I ask these busy researchers to take time out of their work to review the paper that will probably be erased. Here is one example of what I think needs to be said. The article now reads: "Energy source vs power store While the output power is higher than the input power during the power burst, the power balance over the whole experiment does not show significant imbalances. Since the mechanism under the power burst is not known, one cannot say whether energy is really produced, or simply stored during the early stages of the experiment (loading of deuterium in the Palladium cathode) for later release during the power burst. A "power store" discovery would yield only a new, and very expensive, kind of storage battery, not a source of abundant cheap fusion power." I would change that to something along these lines: Skeptics claim that while the output power is higher . . . . . . Cold fusion researchers point out a number of flaws in this argument: 1. There is no significant chemical fuel was present in the solution. The potential chemical energy and chemical storage of cells has been carefully inventoried [McKubre, Bockris] and it shown to be less than 500 joules, whereas cold fusion cells have produced between 50 and 300 million joules. 2. No chemical process can produce (or store) more than 10 eV per atom of reactant, [cite elementary chemical bond article] whereas many cold fusion reactions have produced between 1,000 and 100,000 eV per atom. 3. Many cells have produced significant excess heat after a short incubation period, so if there were energy storage, it would show up quite clearly as an energy deficit (an endothermic reaction). Small endothermic reaction such as the initial formation of palladium deuteride are readily observable with most calorimeters. For example, with some cells, about a week after the experiment begins, 10% to 30% excess heat begins and it continues for about a month continuously. If this were caused by a storage mechanism, there would have to be an energy deficit large enough to capture all of the heat during the one-week start up phase. Roughly 60% of the input energy would have to be absorbed by the palladium, presumably in the formation of an exotic deuteride. As far as anyone knows, this scenario is chemically impossible, and there is absolutely no evidence that such deuterides have been formed, but if they were, the 60% deficit would show as clearly as the 30% positive excess does (at sigma 50 to 90, depending on the calorimeter). 4. Some cold fusion reactions have started up with little or no incubation time, sometimes as short as 20 minutes, and many occur without any significant input energy, especially with gas-loaded, cavitation and ion-beam loading, or with finely divided (powder) metal targets. . . . and so on. (I believe I can find two or three other reasons in the literature to refute this skeptical claim.) Please let me know if you would be interested in a contribution of this nature. Sincerely, Jed Rothwell --=====================_29265937==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Your article on cold fusion has a strong POV, for obvious reasons

Dear Mr. Wales,

Greetings.

I work as an editor and translator for a group of roughly 200 retired scientists and university professors who are working on cold fusion energy. I maintain a web page on the subject:

http://lenr-canr.org/
(It has a contentious headline at present, but that is only temporary. For the past two years we have avoided political statements of this nature, and we expect our disagreement with the DoE to be resolved soon.)

Your article on cold fusion expresses a strongly partisan point of view, which is contrary to your published policy. This is probably unavoidable. Cold fusion is a very contentious field, and most professional scientists believe the effect does not exist. Although your article is more open-minded and comprehensive than statements published by the Scientific American and some other mainstream journals, cold fusion researchers still feel it is biased.

Some of my colleagues have attempted to change the article, but these changes have been deleted by skeptics. I understand that you can "lock" articles, making them read-only, and you can impose a measure of informal editing or peer-review. Because cold fusion is so controversial, and there is such hostile skeptical opposition to it, and because those who support it are a small minority in the scientific community, I suggest you do so in this case.

I am in contact with all of the major researchers in this field, including the discoverer Professor Martin Fleischmann. If you can offer reassurances that contributions written by these researchers will not be erased or defaced, I would be happy to write some material representing their point of view. Here is what I propose to do:

I will write a revised version of your article, but before I upload it, I will circulate it to the researchers whose papers I cite in the footnotes, to confirm that I have accurately described their work. I will not delete any of the skeptical comments now in your article, although I may modify them slightly for clarity and to show that they are, in fact, skeptical. I would be quite willing to circulate the draft to whoever wrote the skeptical comments, to be sure their point of view is accurately represented.

This would be a lot of work. Frankly I am not inclined to do it unless you can offer assurances that my efforts will not be trashed and erased. Nor will I ask these busy researchers to take time out of their work to review the paper that will probably be erased.

Here is one example of what I think needs to be said. The article now reads:


"Energy source vs power store

While the output power is higher than the input power during the power burst, the power balance over the whole experiment does not show significant imbalances. Since the mechanism under the power burst is not known, one cannot say whether energy is really produced, or simply stored during the early stages of the experiment (loading of deuterium in the Palladium cathode) for later release during the power burst.

A "power store" discovery would yield only a new, and very expensive, kind of storage battery, not a source of abundant cheap fusion power."



I would change that to something along these lines:

Skeptics claim that while the output power is higher . . .

. . .

Cold fusion researchers point out a number of flaws in this argument:

1. There is no significant chemical fuel was present in the solution. The potential chemical energy and chemical storage of cells has been carefully inventoried [McKubre, Bockris] and it shown to be less than 500 joules, whereas cold fusion cells have produced between 50 and 300 million joules.

2. No chemical process can produce (or store) more than 10 eV per atom of reactant, [cite elementary chemical bond article] whereas many cold fusion reactions have produced between 1,000 and 100,000 eV per atom.

3. Many cells have produced significant excess heat after a short incubation period, so if there were energy storage, it would show up quite clearly as an energy deficit (an endothermic reaction). Small endothermic reaction such as the initial formation of palladium deuteride are readily observable with most calorimeters. For example, with some cells, about a week after the experiment begins, 10% to 30% excess heat begins and it continues for about a month continuously. If this were caused by a storage mechanism, there would have to be an energy deficit large enough to capture all of the heat during the one-week start up phase. Roughly 60% of the input energy would have to be absorbed by the palladium, presumably in the formation of an exotic deuteride. As far as anyone knows, this scenario is chemically impossible, and there is absolutely no evidence that such deuterides have been formed, but if they were, the 60% deficit would show as clearly as the 30% positive excess does (at sigma 50 to 90, depending on the calorimeter).

4. Some cold fusion reactions have started up with little or no incubation time, sometimes as short as 20 minutes, and many occur without any significant input energy, especially with gas-loaded, cavitation and ion-beam loading, or with finely divided (powder) metal targets.


. . . and so on. (I believe I can find two or three other reasons in the literature to refute this skeptical claim.)

Please let me know if you would be interested in a contribution of this nature.

Sincerely,


Jed Rothwell
--=====================_29265937==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 14:01:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23M0wgk009654; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:00:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23M0jhq009586; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:00:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:00:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050303165901.02bff338 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:00:16 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Message sent to wikipedia editor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_29372375==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58250 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_29372375==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed By the way, I see no point to creating a second article under the title of "LENR," because as I understand it the skeptics will be free to trash that article too. I am not going to work on this project for a week only to have some idiot trash it. - Jed --=====================_29372375==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" By the way, I see no point to creating a second article under the title of "LENR," because as I understand it the skeptics will be free to trash that article too. I am not going to work on this project for a week only to have some idiot trash it.

- Jed
 --=====================_29372375==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 14:09:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23M9Ygk013002; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:09:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23M9WOf012981; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:09:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:09:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050303170652.029ef110 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:09:15 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: CF on NPR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_29911625==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <1s6k9D.A.xKD.bs4JCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58251 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_29911625==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Here is the usual revolting garbage, but not quite as bad as normal: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1805623 I would very much like to punch NPR's Madeleine Brand in the nose. Ira Flatow does his best, but he could have said more if he were not such a chicken. I wonder if he knows what DoE did to Miles? - Jed --=====================_29911625==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Here is the usual revolting garbage, but not quite as bad as normal:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1805623

I would very much like to punch NPR's Madeleine Brand in the nose. Ira Flatow does his best, but he could have said more if he were not such a chicken. I wonder if he knows what DoE did to Miles?

- Jed
--=====================_29911625==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 14:20:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23LQBgk026131; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:26:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23LQ1mL026029; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:26:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:26:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:26:20 -0500 From: George Holz Subject: Re: Wisp update To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <00e501c52037$a48ecfc0$6501a8c0 geh> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <20050303202123.80378.qmail web60310.mail.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58248 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick, SiC coated is certainly interesting but I was thinking of solid carbide tools that are available and reasonably priced. Solid carbide tools are very rigid compared to coated steel tools but are easily broken. The rigidity creates larger forces on the tool during machining so that a fine dense structure of the carbide is required to avoid fracture. I've certainly broken my share of small solid carbide tools on my small NC mill. I'm surprised that the thermocouple is reading such high temperatures. A passive mechanical meter on the thermocouple output would perhaps be less precise but might integrate the noise and be more readable at high power. Thanks for the temperature data. George ------------------------------------------------------------------ > George, > > Thats a good suggestion. Unlike the stainless or > nickel or tungsten cathodes, the SiC looked like > rather than having been corroded or burned away, it > was sort of spalled or broken apart. So once > mechanical stability is assured, (as with a mill or > drill that is hex-SiC coated) some really good > performance might be noted. > > During the TC sheath runs, the plateau temperature > given about 100 watts, and the mass of the couple, > ended up between 400 and 450C typically. (Averaged out > over LOTS of noise) Very jumpy. Toward the end of > the D2O run, I cranked the voltage up to about 75V and > as the plasma went to pinkish white, I saw some > sporadic momentary jumps up past 850C. I'm sure the > actual temperature at the plasma interface was > phantastically higher, but the temp as read by the > nested couple buried in MgO within the stainless > sheath was attenuated. > > NR > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 14:23:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23MN4gk019104; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:23:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23MMxFq019063; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:22:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:22:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <015101c52040$07992540$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF455 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: Correa, etc. Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:26:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_014E_01C52016.1CFF7440" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58252 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_014E_01C52016.1CFF7440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been doing PAGD experiments off and on since 1996. I saw a lot = of interesting things in the tube, and captured energy pulses on = diode/capacitor circuits, but over unity eludes me. Keith Nagle posted = some pictures of my apparatus on his web site. They may still be there. = It was a whole lot of fun working with this phenomena. I hope you try = it and let us know what you find. Jeff Fink ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Zell, Chris=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 4:31 PM Subject: Correa, etc. Has anybody replicated any of Correa's PAGD = overunity claims? I got a vacuum pump and other gear in hopes of = building something that apparently nobody is pursuing. (???) On a separate note, I just got done reading = "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". It is an astounding book. I have little doubt that anyone who stands in the = way of our oil based economic order could be killed. If you have = serious free energy findings, please be careful. You could = end up like Mallove , whatever his flaws. ------=_NextPart_000_014E_01C52016.1CFF7440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have been doing PAGD experiments off = and on since=20 1996.  I saw a lot of interesting things in the tube, and captured = energy=20 pulses on diode/capacitor circuits, but over unity eludes me.  = Keith Nagle=20 posted some pictures of my apparatus on his web site.  They may = still be=20 there.  It was a whole lot of fun working with this = phenomena.  I hope=20 you try it and let us know what you find.
 
Jeff Fink
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Zell, Chris
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 = 4:31=20 PM
Subject: Correa, etc.

       &nbs= p;         =20 Has anybody replicated any of Correa's PAGD overunity claims?  I = got a=20 vacuum pump and other gear in hopes of building = something
       &nbs= p;         =20 that apparently nobody is pursuing. (???)
 
       &nbs= p;         =20 On a separate note,  I just got done reading "Confessions of an = Economic=20 Hitman". It is an astounding book.
       &nbs= p;         =20 I have little doubt that anyone who stands in the way of our oil based = economic order could be killed.  If you have = serious
       &nbs= p;         =20 free energy findings, please be careful.  You could end up like = Mallove ,=20 whatever his flaws.
------=_NextPart_000_014E_01C52016.1CFF7440-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 14:26:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23MPvgk020338; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:26:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23MPrhX020306; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:25:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:25:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050303172419.02a71890 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:25:32 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: CF on NPR In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050303170652.029ef110 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050303170652.029ef110 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_30889656==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58253 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_30889656==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The Flatow segment was linked to a really idiotic segment on sonofusion, which is full of insults toward CF: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4520833 - Jed --=====================_30889656==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" The Flatow segment was linked to a really idiotic segment on sonofusion, which is full of insults toward CF:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4520833

- Jed
 --=====================_30889656==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 14:26:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j23MQ9gk020456; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:26:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j23MQ30b020406; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:26:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:26:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5203F.EFB763DF" Subject: RE: Correa, etc. Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:25:42 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF461 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Correa, etc. Thread-Index: AcUgP7U1aQRkdkQdT12t9aWsdeJ4MAAABUQQ From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Mar 2005 22:25:47.0463 (UTC) FILETIME=[F2924D70:01C5203F] Resent-Message-ID: <135Ui.A.d-E.474JCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58254 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5203F.EFB763DF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How did you handle capturing the pulses? Batteries? ________________________________ From: revtec [mailto:revtec PTD.NET]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:26 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Correa, etc. I have been doing PAGD experiments off and on since 1996. I saw a lot of interesting things in the tube, and captured energy pulses on diode/capacitor circuits, but over unity eludes me. Keith Nagle posted some pictures of my apparatus on his web site. They may still be there. It was a whole lot of fun working with this phenomena. I hope you try it and let us know what you find. =20 Jeff Fink ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Zell, Chris =20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 4:31 PM Subject: Correa, etc. Has anybody replicated any of Correa's PAGD overunity claims? I got a vacuum pump and other gear in hopes of building something that apparently nobody is pursuing. (???) =20 On a separate note, I just got done reading "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". It is an astounding book. I have little doubt that anyone who stands in the way of our oil based economic order could be killed. If you have serious free energy findings, please be careful. You could end up like Mallove , whatever his flaws. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5203F.EFB763DF Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
How did you handle capturing the pulses?=20 Batteries?

From: revtec [mailto:revtec PTD.NET] =
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:26 PM
To:=20 vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Correa, = etc.

I have been doing PAGD experiments off = and on since=20 1996.  I saw a lot of interesting things in the tube, and captured = energy=20 pulses on diode/capacitor circuits, but over unity eludes me.  = Keith Nagle=20 posted some pictures of my apparatus on his web site.  They may = still be=20 there.  It was a whole lot of fun working with this = phenomena.  I hope=20 you try it and let us know what you find.
 
Jeff Fink
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Zell, Chris
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 = 4:31=20 PM
Subject: Correa, etc.

       &nbs= p;         =20 Has anybody replicated any of Correa's PAGD overunity claims?  I = got a=20 vacuum pump and other gear in hopes of building = something
       &nbs= p;         =20 that apparently nobody is pursuing. (???)
 
       &nbs= p;         =20 On a separate note,  I just got done reading "Confessions of an = Economic=20 Hitman". It is an astounding book.
       &nbs= p;         =20 I have little doubt that anyone who stands in the way of our oil based = economic order could be killed.  If you have = serious
       &nbs= p;         =20 free energy findings, please be careful.  You could end up like = Mallove ,=20 whatever his flaws.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C5203F.EFB763DF-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 16:31:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j240VOgk010272; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:31:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j240VMmi010244; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:31:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:31:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:31:33 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Message sent to wikipedia editor Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58255 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Why not simply make a short statement that is not arguable. Something like: "A differing minority view is held by over 200 retired scientists and university professors who are working on cold fusion energy. For related publications see: ." If such a clearly true statement is deleted then the cause is pure prejudice. Maybe we could get together a vigilante team to repost that short statement whenever it is deleted. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 17:01:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2411Lgk021475; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:01:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2411I3m021454; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:01:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:01:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4227B33D.2020503 cox.net> Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:00:45 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Permeabivity References: <2.2.32.20050303111423.006811fc pop.freeserve.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090908050206000604000303" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58256 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --------------090908050206000604000303 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think this is a wonderful article about dimensional analysis: http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/ce/dimmot.htm Grimer wrote: >... >I recommend any reader who does not understand the previous paragraph >to read a book on dimensional analysis if he wants to fully appreciate >the next section. As for readers who believe in the fundamental nature >of mass, length and time as firmly as they believe in their God (or >gods), then I suggest they delete this post now. I wouldn't want to >endanger their simple faith. > >When one expresses the dimensions of permeability and permittivity in >terms of [M]ass , [L]ength and [T]ime one finds that they are very >different creatures. > >Not the type of people likely to get on with each other in fact. > >No wonder their kid is out of sorts; >all screwed up as you Americans might put it. > >Now let's lead c's mother and father gently into the dimen-analyst's >consulting rooms for some marriage guidance counseling. > >Combining the two words, permeability and permittivity with no space >in between them gives permeabilitypermittivity . Since this is a bit >of a mouthful we can take the permeab- bit of permeability and the >-ivity part of permittivity to give us Permeabivity, the name for the >Mother and Father united, the name for the couple as one. > >To emphasize that it is a group name, and because it's easy to get it >confused with the two other names, I've given Permeabivity a capital >letter, as you can see. > >To recap, we now have, the equation > > light speed = the square root of Permeabivity, > >I've not bothered to put this equation in symbols as well as words. >To do so would mean introducing a new symbol for Permeabivity >and that could lead to confusion. > >We can now write down the dimensions for the property, >the quality, of Permeabivity, >in terms of the conventionally fundamental dimensions, >the properties, the qualities, of mass, length and time. >... > Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona --------------090908050206000604000303 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think this is a wonderful article about  dimensional analysis:

http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/ce/dimmot.htm

Grimer wrote:
...
I recommend any reader who does not understand the previous paragraph 
to read a book on dimensional analysis if he wants to fully appreciate 
the next section. As for readers who believe in the fundamental nature 
of mass, length and time as firmly as they believe in their God (or 
gods), then I suggest they delete this post now. I wouldn’t want to 
endanger their simple faith. 

When one expresses the dimensions of permeability and permittivity in 
terms of [M]ass , [L]ength and [T]ime one finds that they are very 
different creatures. 

Not the type of people likely to get on with each other in fact. 

No wonder their kid is out of sorts; 
all screwed up as you Americans might put it.   

Now let's lead c's mother and father gently into the dimen-analyst’s 
consulting rooms for some marriage guidance counseling. 

Combining the two words, permeability and permittivity with no space <
br>in between them gives permeabilitypermittivity . Since this is a bit 
of a mouthful we can take the permeab- bit of permeability and the 
-ivity part of permittivity to give us Permeabivity, the name for the 
Mother and Father united, the name for the couple as one. 

To emphasize that it is a group name, and because it’s easy to get it 
confused with the two other names, I’ve given Permeabivity a capital 
letter, as you can see. 

To recap, we now have, the equation 

             light speed   =  the square root of Permeabivity, 

I’ve not bothered to put this equation in symbols as well as words. 
To do so would mean introducing a new symbol for Permeabivity 
and that could lead to confusion. 

We can now write down the dimensions for the property, 
the quality, of Permeabivity, 
in terms of the conventionally fundamental dimensions, 
the properties, the qualities, of mass, length and time. ...

Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona
--------------090908050206000604000303-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 17:56:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j241uNgk009737; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:56:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j241uHeO009704; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:56:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:56:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050303175845.04ed84c8 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:00:52 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Message sent to wikipedia editor In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58257 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:31 PM 3/3/2005 -0900, you wrote: >Why not simply make a short statement that is not arguable. Something >like: "A differing minority view is held by over 200 retired scientists and >university professors who are working on cold fusion energy. For related >publications see: ." > >If such a clearly true statement is deleted then the cause is pure >prejudice. Maybe we could get together a vigilante team to repost that >short statement whenever it is deleted. I agree. Further, if you can a. Make clear, highly-objective, easily verifiable statements and b. Defend it with vocal proponents (Vortex community > Wiki) it should work. s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 18:15:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j242FLgk016577; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:15:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j242FICq016550; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:15:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:15:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <6ebc3923-0610-4c80-af3c-0d4fdccfc11b> Message-ID: <002501c5205f$fa768360$5e41ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF461 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: Correa, etc. Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:11:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58258 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Zell, Chris To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: RE: Correa, etc. How did you handle capturing the pulses? Batteries? MC: Chris, if you are asking this question you are in no position to attempt the Correa PAGD experiments. You need to obtain the relevant patents and study them thoroughly, and then do your best to duplicate exactly what is in them. Don't try to be different, or 'improve' on what is disclosed. Jeff made a sincere effort, saw many effects, but not the key PAGD OU discharge. I wrote about this for IE some years ago. Mike Carrell From: revtec [mailto:revtec PTD.NET] Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:26 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Correa, etc. I have been doing PAGD experiments off and on since 1996. I saw a lot of interesting things in the tube, and captured energy pulses on diode/capacitor circuits, but over unity eludes me. Keith Nagle posted some pictures of my apparatus on his web site. They may still be there. It was a whole lot of fun working with this phenomena. I hope you try it and let us know what you find. Jeff Fink ----- Original Message ----- From: Zell, Chris To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 4:31 PM Subject: Correa, etc. Has anybody replicated any of Correa's PAGD overunity claims? I got a vacuum pump and other gear in hopes of building something that apparently nobody is pursuing. (???) On a separate note, I just got done reading "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". It is an astounding book. I have little doubt that anyone who stands in the way of our oil based economic order could be killed. If you have serious free energy findings, please be careful. You could end up like Mallove , whatever his flaws. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 18:26:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j242Qfgk020795; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:26:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j242Qc77020772; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:26:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:26:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <018f01c52062$0e3d2820$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF461 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: Correa, etc. Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:29:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_018A_01C52038.23359A20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58259 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_018A_01C52038.23359A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I captured forward pulses in up to six 5600 mfd 350v caps in parallel. = I kept these from over charging with a load bank of series/parallel 40 = watt bulbs that I switched in and out as needed to limit maximum = voltage. Reverse pulses could easily reach 700v which is well above my = 600vdc supply even though there is no inductor in the circuit. I also = have a clip on ammeter on the 120vac power cord. This crude arrangement = could only identify massive OU performance if it was factor of two or = more. Reverse pulses are much rarer. You will need two 350v caps in = series to capture them. Jeff=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Zell, Chris=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: RE: Correa, etc. How did you handle capturing the pulses? Batteries? -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: revtec [mailto:revtec PTD.NET]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:26 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Correa, etc. I have been doing PAGD experiments off and on since 1996. I saw a lot = of interesting things in the tube, and captured energy pulses on = diode/capacitor circuits, but over unity eludes me. Keith Nagle posted = some pictures of my apparatus on his web site. They may still be there. = It was a whole lot of fun working with this phenomena. I hope you try = it and let us know what you find. Jeff Fink ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Zell, Chris=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 4:31 PM Subject: Correa, etc. Has anybody replicated any of Correa's PAGD = overunity claims? I got a vacuum pump and other gear in hopes of = building something that apparently nobody is pursuing. (???) On a separate note, I just got done reading = "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". It is an astounding book. I have little doubt that anyone who stands in the = way of our oil based economic order could be killed. If you have = serious free energy findings, please be careful. You = could end up like Mallove , whatever his flaws. ------=_NextPart_000_018A_01C52038.23359A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I captured forward pulses in up to = six 5600=20 mfd 350v caps in parallel.  I kept these from over charging with a = load=20 bank of series/parallel 40 watt bulbs that I switched in and out as = needed to=20 limit maximum voltage.  Reverse pulses could easily reach 700v = which is=20 well above my 600vdc supply even though there is no inductor in the=20 circuit.  I also have a clip on ammeter on the 120vac power cord. = This=20 crude arrangement could only identify massive OU performance if it was = factor of=20 two or more.  Reverse pulses are much rarer.   You will = need two=20 350v caps in series to capture them.
 
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Zell, Chris
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 = 5:25=20 PM
Subject: RE: Correa, etc.

How did you handle capturing the pulses?=20 Batteries?

From: revtec = [mailto:revtec PTD.NET]=20
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:26 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject= :=20 Re: Correa, etc.

I have been doing PAGD experiments = off and on=20 since 1996.  I saw a lot of interesting things in the tube, and = captured=20 energy pulses on diode/capacitor circuits, but over unity eludes = me. =20 Keith Nagle posted some pictures of my apparatus on his web = site.  They=20 may still be there.  It was a whole lot of fun working with this=20 phenomena.  I hope you try it and let us know what you = find.
 
Jeff Fink
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Zell, Chris
Sent: Monday, February 28, = 2005 4:31=20 PM
Subject: Correa, etc.

       &nbs= p;         =20 Has anybody replicated any of Correa's PAGD overunity claims?  = I got a=20 vacuum pump and other gear in hopes of building=20 something
       &nbs= p;         =20 that apparently nobody is pursuing. (???)
 
       &nbs= p;         =20 On a separate note,  I just got done reading "Confessions of an = Economic Hitman". It is an astounding book.
       &nbs= p;         =20 I have little doubt that anyone who stands in the way of our oil = based=20 economic order could be killed.  If you have=20 serious
       &nbs= p;         =20 free energy findings, please be careful.  You could end up like = Mallove=20 , whatever his=20 flaws.
------=_NextPart_000_018A_01C52038.23359A20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 18:33:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j242Whgk022837; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:32:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j242Wekq022815; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:32:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:32:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006401c52062$6b1d3fd0$17027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Permeabivity Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 20:32:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0060_01C52030.2000CE90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58260 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C52030.2000CE90 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0061_01C52030.2003DBD0" ------=_NextPart_001_0061_01C52030.2003DBD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankSurely if Sir Isaac were around today he would enjoy the internet = and Grimer's post. Leave it to an Englishman to sort the flaws with a = sense of humor. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0061_01C52030.2003DBD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Surely if Sir Isaac were around today he would = enjoy the=20 internet and Grimer's post. Leave it to an Englishman to sort the = flaws =20 with a sense of humor.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0061_01C52030.2003DBD0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C52030.2000CE90 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <005f01c52062$6a939d70$17027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C52030.2000CE90-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 20:12:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j244Bmgk028575; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 20:11:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j244BkgA028565; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 20:11:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 20:11:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050304041138.0068b600 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 04:11:38 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: The CoFu Bomb Game Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58261 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Why not develop a computer game in which you first have to kidnap various scientists such as Dr Bones and Professor Fleshman and then "persuade" them using various macabre instruments (which I'll leave to your imagination) into developing a Cold Fusion Bomb. Various exotic metals and pieces of equipment would replace the treasures and instruments of traditional games and there would be a scale of points for evading the Men In Black and vapourising various high profile targets. I'm sure it would have immense appeal amongst Bart Simpsonesque teenagers who want to needle their irritatingly PC bleeding heart liberal parents. For the younger children you could be politically correct and have Sonic the Hedgehog fighting Doctor Robotnik. Once Robotnik was a scientist named Kintobor, until the explosion of his R.O.C.C. machine turned him into the evil Robotnik who joins Osma Bin Liner and his gang. For the kiddies' game the characterizations are already in existence. The Brotherhood of Metallix for example is the group name for an ---------------------------------------------------- "elite brotherhood of badnik robots, the Metallixes. Initially designed by Robotnik's Chief Scientist Grimer to defeat Sonic the Hedgehog, they disobeyed their master and now pose one of the greatest threat ever for both Sonic and Robotnik." ---------------------------------------------------- With any luck the PTB would throw the adult version in the Briar Bush thereby making it as popular as moonshine liquor during the days of prohibition. Sales in other countries would rocket. Banning would certainly bring the whole subject to public attention and probably make the writers a shedfull of money. Cheers Grimer [Robotnik's Chief Scientist and assistant] ....and if you don't believe me, go google. ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 3 22:02:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2462igk015409; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:02:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2462bEb015383; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:02:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:02:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: CF on NPR Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:04:10 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004A_01C5204D.B136B3D0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050303172419.02a71890 pop.mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58262 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C5204D.B136B3D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You really expect a fair shake on NPR? They are about as unbiased in their agenda "reporting" as 60 Minutes. I really wouldn't get your undies in a bundle over it though. The bulk of the audience will mentally tune out the report because it's not a social injustice issue or an environmental scare tactic. IMO the Scientific American position is far more damaging to winning the hearts and minds of the mainstream scientific community. After all it has to be true because it's published in a respectable magazine (is Jayson Blair by chance working over there now?) .... 8^) Also, with regard to your volley to Wikipedia... maybe read the Wired article you linked in your post. It explains how the system works and how the subject champions really control the info presented there. It's an open source project. The only time they lock edits from pages is when the "changers" and "fixers" become relentless and irrational in their attempts to only their side of the story posted and it starts dragging down bandwidth. -john -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 4:26 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: CF on NPR The Flatow segment was linked to a really idiotic segment on sonofusion, which is full of insults toward CF: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4520833 - Jed ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C5204D.B136B3D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You=20 really expect a fair shake on NPR?  They are about as unbiased in = their=20 agenda "reporting" as 60 Minutes.  I really = wouldn't get your=20 undies in a bundle over it though.  The bulk of the audience = will=20 mentally tune out the report because it's not a social injustice issue = or an=20 environmental scare tactic. 
 
IMO=20 the Scientific American position is far more damaging to winning the = hearts and=20 minds of the mainstream  scientific community.  After all it = has to be=20 true because it's published in a respectable magazine (is Jayson Blair by chance working over there = now?) .... 8^)
 
Also,=20 with regard to your volley to Wikipedia... maybe read the Wired article = you=20 linked in your post.  It explains how the system works and how = the=20 subject champions really control the info presented there.  It's an = open=20 source project.  The only time they lock edits from pages is = when the=20 "changers" and "fixers" become relentless and irrational in their = attempts to=20 only their side of the story posted and it starts dragging down=20 bandwidth.
 
-john
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell=20 [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 03, = 2005=20 4:26 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF on=20 NPR

The Flatow segment was linked to = a really=20 idiotic segment on sonofusion, which is full of insults toward = CF:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3D= 4520833

-=20 Jed
 ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C5204D.B136B3D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 00:00:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2480Dgk031226; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:00:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2480APf031197; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:00:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:00:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Mark S Bilk To: "Vortex List" Subject: Proton-Boron Hydrino Fusion(Fission)? (was: Small scale ICF) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:53:13 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <05030323595308.06465 isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58263 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In-Reply-To: <01a401c51f57$7ddd5440$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 On Wed, Mar 02, 2005 at 10:41:47AM -0800, Jones Beene wrote: >The reaction p+11B --> 3 alphas has always seemed the ideal, >in-a-perfect-world kind of nuclear reaction for ecological >energy production. Would this reaction p + 11B -> 3 alphas + 8.7 Mev be a candidate for hydrino fusion (resulting in fission), in an electrolytic or plasma-electrolytic cell? 80% of boron atoms are 11B, the rest are 10B. Boric acid (H3BO3) and borax (Na2B4O7) are highly soluble in hot water. Boric acid, H3BO3 -- solubility 27.6% at 100degC Borax (Disodium Tetraborate) pentahydrate, Na2B4O7 x 5 H20, water solubility: 160 g/l (60degC) Is the required proton energy for hot fusion of p+11B higher than for d+t or d+d? If so, does that mean that the proton has to get closer to the B nucleus to fuse, thus requiring an even tinier hydrino than for deuterino+deuterino fusion? __________________________________________________________ Here's an analysis of neutron production in p + 11B hot fusion from secondary reactions (fixed -- it was written in all lower case, with no paragraph breaks). Maybe in water the alphas would be slowed down before they could react with boron and create a neutron? > http://www.gerhard.de/gerold/owa/gerhard.browsen_soif?form_seq=979306&form_timestamp=&form_language=0 > http://www.gerhard.de/gerold/owa/gerhard.browsen_soif?form_seq=979306 > > Radiation from "Aneutronic" Fusion > Arthur Carlson > > Written: 1998 Jul 9, replacing the version first written 1998 Feb. > > Status: I'm starting to understand the issues, but the answers > are by no means final. > > Disclaimer: the content of these pages is my responsibility and > does not necessarily represent the position of my employer. > > Fusion based on exotic reactions like proton-boron11 is sometimes > claimed to use and produce no radioactive substances, thus freeing > fusion from the burden of radiation damage, biological shielding, > remote handling, and safety issues. We will here investigate > under what conditions and to what extent that is true, without > regard to the perhaps insurmountable difficulties of producing > net energy from the process. > > An "aneutronic" reaction is often defined as one where no more than > 1% of the total fusion energy released is carried by neutrons. > Detailed calculations [Heindler and Kernbichler, Proc. 5th > Intl. Conf. on emerging nuclear energy systems, 1989, pp. 177-82] > show that at least 0.1% of the reactions in a thermal p-B11 plasma > would produce neutrons. This is still an awful lot of neutrons, > as can be seen by the following simple calculation. > > If we assume 0.1% of the energy is carried off by neutrons, even a > "kitchen-sized" reactor with 30 KW of fusion power will produce 30 > w of neutrons. If there is no significant shielding, a worker in > the next room, 10 m away, might intercept (0.5 m^2)/(4 pi (10 m)^2) > = 4e-4 of this power, i.e., 0.012 W. With 70 kg body mass and the > definition 1 erg/.01 j/kg, we find a dose rate of 0.017 rad/sec. > Using a quality factor of 20 for fast neutrons, this is equivalent > to 0.34 rem/sec. The maximum yearly occupational dose of 5 rem > will be reached in 15 sec, the fatal (LD-50) dose of 500 rem will > be reached in half an hour. > > For an industrial size (100 MW) reactor under the same assumptions, > the dose rate would be thousands of time higher, and anyone > standing nearby would be dead in a fraction of a second. > The neutrons would also activate the structure so that remote > maintenance and radioactive waste disposal would be necessary. > Of course, material damage and safety problems would be brought > into an easily manageable range. > > If we look at where these neutrons come from, they are dominated by > the reaction 11B + alpha -> 14N + n + 157 kev. If we really want > to eliminate neutrons, we see that we cannot tolerate fast alphas > in the plasma. Usually, the product alphas are relied on to keep > the fuel hot. If the alphas have to be extracted with their full > energy, we will need very, very efficient processes to collect > this power, transfer it, and drive whatever process maintains > the plasma energy. The reaction itself produces only 157 kev, > but the neutron will carry a large fraction of the alpha energy, > which will be close to e_fusion/.9 mev. This should be large > enough that the gammas produce some nuclear reactions, including > (gamma,n) reactions, in the structure. > > Suppose we can do this, so that fast alpha reactions are suppressed > by several orders of magnitude. We will always have the fuel ions, > protons and borons. Of course, p+p doesn't do much, and boron-boron > reactions can probably also be neglected due to the large coulomb > barrier. The species can however react with one another in a number > of ways to produce neutrons. These reactions are all endothermic. > > The smallest barrier is for the reaction 11B + p -> 11C + n - > 2.8 mev in a thermal plasma of a few hundred kev temperature, > there is a sufficient number of protons in the high energy tail > that this reaction is a significant source of neutrons. If the > proton temperature is reduced below about 30 kev, then this process > is suppressed, but there is also no longer any significant fusion. > > The only way around this dilemma is to produce a nearly > mono-energetic proton energy distribution, that is, a beam. > If the beam energy is chosen to be at the fusion resonance around > 600 kev, then the reactivity is also about three times higher than > the maximum for a thermal plasma. > > Let us assume that we can produce and maintain such a non-maxwellian > distribution, so that (p,n) reactions are suppressed by several > orders of magnitude. What is the next most serious source > of neutrons? Probably those associated with fuel impurities. > If the density of fast alphas and fast protons is controlled to > suppress reactions with 11B, then the reactions with impurity 10B > should be similarly suppressed for the same reasons. > > The impurity deuterium density must be kept low enough to suppress > d-d fusion. Since the fusion rate is proportional to the square of > the deuterium density, I presume that this is not too difficult. > More serious is perhaps the reaction 11B + d -> 12C + n + 13.7 > mev the cross section for this reaction should be similar to that > for p-11B fusion, so that it will be necessary to use very pure > hydrogen fuel. I haven't analyzed this problem, but considering > the factor 2 mass difference and the small amount of fuel needed, > i assume that it is technically and economically feasible to reduce > the deuterium concentration several orders of magnitude below its > natural abundance of 1.5e-4. > > Let us assume that fuel of sufficient chemical and isotopic purity > can be made. Any other elements getting into the plasma, for > example through outgassing of the walls, are another potential > source of neutrons. Any energetic fuel or product particles > striking solid surfaces can also produce neutrons. It is difficult > to estimate the severity of these reactions, even with a particular > configuration in mind. If, in addition to the other assumptions > above, we assume that interactions between the plasma and the > containment device can be adequately controlled, then neutron > production will be suppressed by many orders of magnitude. > > What other types of radiation will be a concern? Bremsstrahlung > will produce extremely large quantities of hard x-rays, which must, > and I suppose can, be shielded by a modest amount of metal. > > The fusion reaction 11B + p -> 12C + gamma + 16.0 mev will produce > 4, 12, and 16 mev gammas with a branching probability relative to > the primary fusion reaction of about 10^-4. With no shielding, > this would be a tremendous radiation dose. The calculation above > would apply if the production rate is decreased a factor of ten > and the quality factor is reduced from 20 to 1. Without shielding, > the occupational dose from a small (30 KW) reactor would still be > reached in about an hour, so enough shielding must be installed > to attenuate the hard gamma flux by well over three orders of > magnitude. For an industrial reactor, the attenuation should be > well over six orders of magnitude. > > This should be doable, but does not, in my opinion, support the > statement of Rostoker, et al., in Science, that "radioactivity > from side reactions is negligible". > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 00:56:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j248tpgk014836; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:55:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j248to9F014829; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:55:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:55:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050304041138.0068b600 pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20050304041138.0068b600 pop.freeserve.net> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 02:56:06 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: The CoFu Bomb Game Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58264 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Grimer posted; >Why not develop a computer game in which you >first have to kidnap various scientists such >as Dr Bones and Professor Fleshman and then >"persuade" them using various macabre instruments Don't forget the evil Dr. Park, attempting to protect the establishment at all costs. >I'm sure it would have immense appeal amongst >Bart Simpsonesque teenagers who want to needle >their irritatingly PC bleeding heart liberal >parents. Ah, if one could just figure out how to part the little darlings from their parent's money. >For the younger children you could be politically >correct and have Sonic the Hedgehog fighting >Doctor Robotnik. Once Robotnik was a scientist This whole thing sounds like a pipe dream if ever I heard one. > >Banning would certainly bring the whole subject to >public attention and probably make the writers a >shedfull of money. Perhaps it might even get us an interview on NPR. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 02:29:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24ASfgk012440; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 02:28:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24ASdtS012428; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 02:28:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 02:28:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050304102829.006a5bf8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:28:29 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: CF on NPR Resent-Message-ID: <88HuZD.A.ICD.XhDKCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58265 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:04 am 04-03-05 -0600, John Steck wrote: > You really expect a fair shake on NPR? > They are about as unbiased in their agenda "reporting" > as 60 Minutes. I really wouldn't get your undies in a > bundle over it though. The bulk of the audience will > mentally tune out the report because it's not a social > injustice issue or an environmental scare tactic. You could soon make it "an environmental scare tactic" if you're prepared to be as unscrupulous as CF opponents and play dirty by using Negropontean bits instead of atoms. There must be some neurotic tree-hugging Vortexian who could be relied on to play his part convincingly. Wheel him on to explain the horrors which will ensue if the terrorists get there before the US is ready with adequate counter measures. After all, you Yanks have a history of being caught with your trousers down. Pearl, 911 - if it happens again, the Brits will begin to loose confidence in their big brother. ;-) Neurotic types can be terribly convincing. Moreover they constitute a large section of the population in one way or another. I speak from intimate personal experience. My older brother came home from his finals at Guys almost in tears saying he knew he had failed. My mother did her best to comfort him. In the event the bastard had honours is all 7 subjects, the best result that historic London Teaching Hospital had achieved in all the previous seven years. What an arsehole. I was just about to start at UCL. He had certainly queered my pitch. There was no way I could better that result. People as neurotic as him have an almost mesmeric ability to inspire fear. I remember he once came round to my house and seeing my new fridge with an internal light (an innovation at the time), he said, "Are you sure that it turns off when you shut the door. Even though I knew perfectly well that it did. and the switch plunger was in plain view, I'm ashamed to say that when he'd gone I opened the fridge door just a crack to make certain. Still, familiarity with my neurotic brother proved rewarding when it came to my own finals. There was the usual chorus of moans from people who were worried that they were going to finish up with a Desmond. I saw my chance and started to mock them. "Don't be daft, you're all going to get 2:1s. I'll take a bet on it". They took me at my word. I gave them evens knowing that overall I couldn't possibly loose. As is turned out I didn't loose a single bet. I felt a bit sorry for one lad though to whom I hadn't made an offer, "Will you take my bet not to get a Desmond, Grimer? "No." "Why not?" "Cos I think you will." I fear it can't have done the poor chap's confidence much good because, in the event, he did. Only one out of 14 of us got a 1st. He was a real swot who didn't bet with me for religious reasons. He went on to take his Ph.D and then promptly became a Baptist minister; probably the only one in the country with a doctorate in civil engineering. Still, I'm glad I didn't take my talents to the insurance industry. Structural research proved a much more interesting and emotionally rewarding challenge. The thrill of discovering things no one else has seen - there ain't nothing like it - except a religious vision perhaps. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 03:59:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24BxYgk010796; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 03:59:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24BxWK0010763; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 03:59:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 03:59:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=feq91WN8dXgKCgRNpuormvKYUq4bZdCT5CqNqFAoJyAYmqxUqOg7VHOqk6IjROTW; Message-ID: <410-22005354105828560 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: ZPE-Cryopumping & Inversion Temperature Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 04:58:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940a29eb8fe1bbf211d9fe8b3a935ac3c30350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.139 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58266 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2524493 The Inversion Temperature: " the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands takes place below that temperature, above that temperature it heats under expansion." The Papp engine: Issue #51 of Infinite-Energy September/October 2003 http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/papp.html Gas Inversion Temp Deg K Helium 51 Hydrogen 205 Neon 242 Nitrogen 621 Argon 723 Krypton 727 Xenon 1427 Oxygen 893 More Info: On the Casimir effect and the temperature inversion symmetry File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat PDF... zero eigenvalue will be dealt with by dimensional regularisation [7]. The regularised free energy will be shown to exhibit the ‘inversion temperature symmetry ... www.iop.org/EJ/article/ 0305-4470/23/9/023/jav23i9p1627.pdf http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/0652/notes/pdf/jtnotes.pdf ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2524493

The Inversion Temperature:

 " the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands takes place below that temperature, above that temperature it heats under expansion."

The Papp engine:
 
Issue #51 of Infinite-Energy September/October 2003
 
 
 
 
 
Gas                Inversion Temp Deg K
 
Helium                     51
Hydrogen               205
Neon                        242
Nitrogen                  621
Argon                       723
Krypton                    727
Xenon                      1427                                                    
Oxygen                   893
 
More Info:

On the Casimir effect and the temperature inversion symmetry File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat

PDF... zero eigenvalue will be dealt with by dimensional regularisation [7]. The regularised free energy will be shown to exhibit the ‘inversion temperature symmetry ...
www.iop.org/EJ/article/ 0305-4470/23/9/023/jav23i9p1627.pdf
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 04:57:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24Cuogk032730; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 04:56:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24CulMG032685; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 04:56:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 04:56:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=P4UzNhco/9HsUa4dIwMKAWZ/k4AYsl9LpeipJucgJ08ky7M5XX/t4jvNm5YeWXqL; Message-ID: <410-22005354115544760 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: ZPE-Cryopumping & Inversion Temperature Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 05:55:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408d4dd77c095fe15be426a8d2dff63d00350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.57 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58267 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII ThermoAcoustic Refrigeration: SonoFusion/bubble Connection? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

ThermoAcoustic Refrigeration:   SonoFusion/bubble Connection?
 
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 05:45:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24Difgk016664; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 05:44:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24DibwR016640; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 05:44:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 05:44:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <003e01c520c0$4869a560$9c50ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF461 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <018f01c52062$0e3d2820$6601a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> Subject: Re: Correa, etc. Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:30:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0038_01C52094.5E5A44F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58268 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C52094.5E5A44F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeff, I can understand one reason you never saw the OU effect. You = ***must*** use the Correa circuit, including the batteries. The PAGD = discharge conatains a lot of energy and a single discharge will charge = up any reasonable heap of capacitors to the point that the PAGD = discharge is quenched. The Correas are no fools; every aspect of the = device and circuit are empirically necessary. The Correa experiment does = not use a plug-in power supply. It uses batteries for the source and = batteries for the sink. It seems like a pain, but the batteries are = carefully chosen and carefully calibrated. The proof if the effect is = either in oscillograms of individual discharges -- into the battery sink = -- or careful measurement of accumulated charge in the output batteries = over an extended run.=20 It is so tempting to assume that a system like PAGD was put together = without knowledge of 'real' engineering and should be easily "improved", = so you do something that 'looks like' the Correa setup without actually = understanding it. Mike Carrell ----- Original Message -----=20 From: revtec=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 9:29 PM Subject: Re: Correa, etc. I captured forward pulses in up to six 5600 mfd 350v caps in parallel. = I kept these from over charging with a load bank of series/parallel 40 = watt bulbs that I switched in and out as needed to limit maximum = voltage. Reverse pulses could easily reach 700v which is well above my = 600vdc supply even though there is no inductor in the circuit. I also = have a clip on ammeter on the 120vac power cord. This crude arrangement = could only identify massive OU performance if it was factor of two or = more. Reverse pulses are much rarer. You will need two 350v caps in = series to capture them. Jeff=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Zell, Chris=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: RE: Correa, etc. How did you handle capturing the pulses? Batteries? -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: revtec [mailto:revtec PTD.NET]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:26 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Correa, etc. I have been doing PAGD experiments off and on since 1996. I saw a = lot of interesting things in the tube, and captured energy pulses on = diode/capacitor circuits, but over unity eludes me. Keith Nagle posted = some pictures of my apparatus on his web site. They may still be there. = It was a whole lot of fun working with this phenomena. I hope you try = it and let us know what you find. Jeff Fink ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Zell, Chris=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 4:31 PM Subject: Correa, etc. Has anybody replicated any of Correa's PAGD = overunity claims? I got a vacuum pump and other gear in hopes of = building something that apparently nobody is pursuing. (???) On a separate note, I just got done reading = "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". It is an astounding book. I have little doubt that anyone who stands in = the way of our oil based economic order could be killed. If you have = serious free energy findings, please be careful. You = could end up like Mallove , whatever his flaws. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C52094.5E5A44F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jeff, I can understand one reason you = never saw the=20 OU effect. You ***must*** use the Correa circuit, including the = batteries. The=20 PAGD discharge conatains a lot of energy and a single discharge=20 will charge up any reasonable heap of capacitors to the = point that the=20 PAGD discharge is quenched. The Correas are no fools; every aspect of = the device=20 and circuit are empirically necessary. The Correa experiment does not = use a=20 plug-in power supply. It uses batteries for the source and batteries for = the=20 sink. It seems like a pain, but the batteries are carefully chosen = and=20 carefully calibrated. The proof if the effect is either in oscillograms = of=20 individual discharges -- into the battery sink -- or careful measurement = of=20 accumulated charge in the output batteries over an extended run. =
 
It is so tempting to assume that a = system like PAGD=20 was put together without knowledge of 'real' engineering and should be = easily=20 "improved", so you do something that 'looks like' the Correa setup = without=20 actually understanding it.
 
Mike Carrell
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 revtec =
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 = 9:29=20 PM
Subject: Re: Correa, etc.

I captured forward pulses in up = to six 5600=20 mfd 350v caps in parallel.  I kept these from over charging with = a load=20 bank of series/parallel 40 watt bulbs that I switched in and out as = needed to=20 limit maximum voltage.  Reverse pulses could easily reach 700v = which is=20 well above my 600vdc supply even though there is no inductor in the=20 circuit.  I also have a clip on ammeter on the 120vac power cord. = This=20 crude arrangement could only identify massive OU performance if it was = factor=20 of two or more.  Reverse pulses are much rarer.   You = will need=20 two 350v caps in series to capture them.
 
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Zell, Chris
Sent: Thursday, March 03, = 2005 5:25=20 PM
Subject: RE: Correa, = etc.

How did you handle capturing the pulses?=20 Batteries?

From: revtec = [mailto:revtec PTD.NET]=20
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:26 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject= :=20 Re: Correa, etc.

I have been doing PAGD experiments = off and on=20 since 1996.  I saw a lot of interesting things in the tube, and = captured energy pulses on diode/capacitor circuits, but over unity = eludes=20 me.  Keith Nagle posted some pictures of my apparatus on his = web=20 site.  They may still be there.  It was a whole lot of fun = working=20 with this phenomena.  I hope you try it and let us know what = you=20 find.
 
Jeff Fink
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Zell, Chris
Sent: Monday, February 28, = 2005 4:31=20 PM
Subject: Correa, etc.

       &nbs= p;         =20 Has anybody replicated any of Correa's PAGD overunity = claims?  I got=20 a vacuum pump and other gear in hopes of building=20 something
       &nbs= p;         =20 that apparently nobody is pursuing. (???)
 
       &nbs= p;         =20 On a separate note,  I just got done reading "Confessions of = an=20 Economic Hitman". It is an astounding book.
       &nbs= p;         =20 I have little doubt that anyone who stands in the way of our oil = based=20 economic order could be killed.  If you have=20 serious
       &nbs= p;         =20 free energy findings, please be careful.  You could end up = like=20 Mallove , whatever his=20 flaws.
<= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C52094.5E5A44F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 06:19:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24EImgk032288; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 06:18:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24EIjxd032262; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 06:18:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 06:18:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304091123.029fafa8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:18:28 -0500 To: , From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: CF on NPR In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050303172419.02a71890 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_880515==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58269 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_880515==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed John Steck wrote: >You really expect a fair shake on NPR? Yes, I do -- for a good reason. The short segment they broadcast with Ira Flatow was quite fair and accurate. Flatow has often communicated with us that he knows what the story is. He was a little timid, but accurate. I am hoping the other reporters on NPR contact him and discuss the matter. Since he is their science reporter it is likely they will. >IMO the Scientific American position is far more damaging to winning the >hearts and minds of the mainstream scientific community. I agree. >Also, with regard to your volley to Wikipedia... maybe read the Wired >article you linked in your post. It explains how the system works and how >the subject champions really control the info presented there. I did read it, and that is why I sent the message. I am hoping they will make me the "subject champion" of cold fusion. If the people in charge are reasonably fair they will let me fix the article and then lock it. If they do not give me that assurance I will not bother to change it. I have no time to play games with skeptics. - Jed --=====================_880515==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" John Steck wrote:

You really expect a fair shake on NPR?

Yes, I do -- for a good reason. The short segment they broadcast with Ira Flatow was quite fair and accurate. Flatow has often communicated with us that he knows what the story is. He was a little timid, but accurate. I am hoping the other reporters on NPR contact him and discuss the matter. Since he is their science reporter it is likely they will.


IMO the Scientific American position is far more damaging to winning the hearts and minds of the mainstream  scientific community.

I agree.


Also, with regard to your volley to Wikipedia... maybe read the Wired article you linked in your post.  It explains how the system works and how the subject champions really control the info presented there.

I did read it, and that is why I sent the message. I am hoping they will make me the "subject champion" of cold fusion. If the people in charge are reasonably fair they will let me fix the article and then lock it. If they do not give me that assurance I will not bother to change it. I have no time to play games with skeptics.

- Jed
--=====================_880515==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 06:20:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24EKNgk000480; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 06:20:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24EKK78000444; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 06:20:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 06:20:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C520C5.49AF7FD0" Subject: RE: Correa, etc. Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:20:16 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF462 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Correa, etc. Thread-Index: AcUgwGfE933m0pWpR/SNBQ5A1o40OAAAzitA From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Mar 2005 14:20:08.0742 (UTC) FILETIME=[44F41460:01C520C5] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58270 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C520C5.49AF7FD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I appreciate this discussion. We need to analyse these details carefully. =20 Let me see if I understand what might be happening. Is there a fundamental difference between the way a battery absorbs a pulse versus a capacitor? Does the capacitor inhibit the absorption in a way that the battery doesn't? Or is it simply a matter of using enough capacitors? =20 Secondly, Even if batteries must be used, I do wonder why pulse transformers couldn't be used to bring the voltage down to more useable levels and run a smaller battery pack. =20 Thirdly, I've carefully read their patents and I didn't notice if anyone has ever done a 'calculus' of the input vs. output power. Not being very math oriented, maybe scissors and graph paper would work for me! If the output covers more area than the input ( using the same scale) , then OU is established. ________________________________ From: Mike Carrell [mailto:mikec snip.net]=20 Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 8:30 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Correa, etc. Jeff, I can understand one reason you never saw the OU effect. You ***must*** use the Correa circuit, including the batteries. The PAGD discharge conatains a lot of energy and a single discharge will charge up any reasonable heap of capacitors to the point that the PAGD discharge is quenched. The Correas are no fools; every aspect of the device and circuit are empirically necessary. The Correa experiment does not use a plug-in power supply. It uses batteries for the source and batteries for the sink. It seems like a pain, but the batteries are carefully chosen and carefully calibrated. The proof if the effect is either in oscillograms of individual discharges -- into the battery sink -- or careful measurement of accumulated charge in the output batteries over an extended run.=20 =20 It is so tempting to assume that a system like PAGD was put together without knowledge of 'real' engineering and should be easily "improved", so you do something that 'looks like' the Correa setup without actually understanding it. =20 Mike Carrell =20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: revtec =20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 9:29 PM Subject: Re: Correa, etc. I captured forward pulses in up to six 5600 mfd 350v caps in parallel. I kept these from over charging with a load bank of series/parallel 40 watt bulbs that I switched in and out as needed to limit maximum voltage. Reverse pulses could easily reach 700v which is well above my 600vdc supply even though there is no inductor in the circuit. I also have a clip on ammeter on the 120vac power cord. This crude arrangement could only identify massive OU performance if it was factor of two or more. Reverse pulses are much rarer. You will need two 350v caps in series to capture them. =20 Jeff=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Zell, Chris =20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: RE: Correa, etc. How did you handle capturing the pulses? Batteries? ________________________________ From: revtec [mailto:revtec PTD.NET]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:26 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Correa, etc. =09 =09 I have been doing PAGD experiments off and on since 1996. I saw a lot of interesting things in the tube, and captured energy pulses on diode/capacitor circuits, but over unity eludes me. Keith Nagle posted some pictures of my apparatus on his web site. They may still be there. It was a whole lot of fun working with this phenomena. I hope you try it and let us know what you find. =20 Jeff Fink ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Zell, Chris =20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 4:31 PM Subject: Correa, etc. Has anybody replicated any of Correa's PAGD overunity claims? I got a vacuum pump and other gear in hopes of building something that apparently nobody is pursuing. (???) =20 On a separate note, I just got done reading "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". It is an astounding book. I have little doubt that anyone who stands in the way of our oil based economic order could be killed. If you have serious free energy findings, please be careful. You could end up like Mallove , whatever his flaws. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C520C5.49AF7FD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I appreciate this discussion.  We need to = analyse=20 these details carefully.
 
Let me see if I understand what might be = happening. =20 Is there a fundamental difference between the way a battery absorbs a = pulse=20 versus a capacitor?
Does the capacitor inhibit the absorption in a = way that the=20 battery doesn't?  Or is it simply a matter of using enough=20 capacitors?
 
Secondly,  Even if batteries must be used, = I do wonder=20 why pulse transformers couldn't be used to bring the voltage down to = more=20 useable levels
and run a smaller battery = pack.
 
Thirdly,  I've carefully read their = patents and I=20 didn't notice if anyone has ever done a 'calculus' of the input vs. = output=20 power.  Not being very math oriented,
maybe scissors and graph paper would work for = me!  If=20 the output covers more area than the input ( using the same scale) , = then OU is=20 established.

From: Mike Carrell = [mailto:mikec snip.net]=20
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 8:30 AM
To:=20 vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Correa, = etc.

Jeff, I can understand one reason you = never saw the=20 OU effect. You ***must*** use the Correa circuit, including the = batteries. The=20 PAGD discharge conatains a lot of energy and a single discharge=20 will charge up any reasonable heap of capacitors to the = point that the=20 PAGD discharge is quenched. The Correas are no fools; every aspect of = the device=20 and circuit are empirically necessary. The Correa experiment does not = use a=20 plug-in power supply. It uses batteries for the source and batteries for = the=20 sink. It seems like a pain, but the batteries are carefully chosen = and=20 carefully calibrated. The proof if the effect is either in oscillograms = of=20 individual discharges -- into the battery sink -- or careful measurement = of=20 accumulated charge in the output batteries over an extended run. =
 
It is so tempting to assume that a = system like PAGD=20 was put together without knowledge of 'real' engineering and should be = easily=20 "improved", so you do something that 'looks like' the Correa setup = without=20 actually understanding it.
 
Mike Carrell
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 revtec =
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 = 9:29=20 PM
Subject: Re: Correa, etc.

I captured forward pulses in up = to six 5600=20 mfd 350v caps in parallel.  I kept these from over charging with = a load=20 bank of series/parallel 40 watt bulbs that I switched in and out as = needed to=20 limit maximum voltage.  Reverse pulses could easily reach 700v = which is=20 well above my 600vdc supply even though there is no inductor in the=20 circuit.  I also have a clip on ammeter on the 120vac power cord. = This=20 crude arrangement could only identify massive OU performance if it was = factor=20 of two or more.  Reverse pulses are much rarer.   You = will need=20 two 350v caps in series to capture them.
 
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Zell, Chris
Sent: Thursday, March 03, = 2005 5:25=20 PM
Subject: RE: Correa, = etc.

How did you handle capturing the pulses?=20 Batteries?

From: revtec = [mailto:revtec PTD.NET]=20
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:26 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject= :=20 Re: Correa, etc.

I have been doing PAGD experiments = off and on=20 since 1996.  I saw a lot of interesting things in the tube, and = captured energy pulses on diode/capacitor circuits, but over unity = eludes=20 me.  Keith Nagle posted some pictures of my apparatus on his = web=20 site.  They may still be there.  It was a whole lot of fun = working=20 with this phenomena.  I hope you try it and let us know what = you=20 find.
 
Jeff Fink
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Zell, Chris
Sent: Monday, February 28, = 2005 4:31=20 PM
Subject: Correa, etc.

       &nbs= p;         =20 Has anybody replicated any of Correa's PAGD overunity = claims?  I got=20 a vacuum pump and other gear in hopes of building=20 something
       &nbs= p;         =20 that apparently nobody is pursuing. (???)
 
       &nbs= p;         =20 On a separate note,  I just got done reading "Confessions of = an=20 Economic Hitman". It is an astounding book.
       &nbs= p;         =20 I have little doubt that anyone who stands in the way of our oil = based=20 economic order could be killed.  If you have=20 serious
       &nbs= p;         =20 free energy findings, please be careful.  You could end up = like=20 Mallove , whatever his=20 flaws.
<= /HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C520C5.49AF7FD0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 06:42:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24EgPgk011779; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 06:42:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24EgNPb011747; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 06:42:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 06:42:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Correa, etc. Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:42:06 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF463 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Correa, etc. Thread-Index: AcUgYBwu0iTuL6GtQWylTXU37mzpBwAZdAPg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Mar 2005 14:41:50.0653 (UTC) FILETIME=[4CF3EED0:01C520C8] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j24EgGgk011629 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58271 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I respect your opinion and have spent considerable time analysing the patents and related comments by Aspden. There is a need to make the PAGD practical - huge banks of batteries aren't going to do it. I think we need To look at pulse transformers to bring the voltages down to more useable levels. I e-mailed the Correas and received a reply that I interpret as meaning that no one has replicated their Results - at least, in any open, published fashion. A sad matter that requires some attention in regard to the Correas' work concerns their unusual state of Mind. To put it simply ---- in a nutshell ---- they are far too contentious about their work. I have no Doubt that they will never achieve any practical commercial application of any of their fascinating research. Like it or not, technology is a human enterprise - with all the social obstacles that entails. It's really Too bad but much the same happened to Tesla in his latter years. I wish things were different. They should Take things in stride, accept that other people make mistakes and don't 'get it', without a lot of patience and help. Maybe that's for the best - they will never meet the same suspicious fate as Mallove or Paul Brown. I say the above also because their attitude of contention becomes infectious - and that inhibits the benefit that they sincerely Wish to promulgate. One of the wisest proverbs I ever heard is this: "Fashion is made by fools - but only fools defy fashion". Reich had some brilliant insights but I would never Recommend his personality to others. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:mikec snip.net] Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 9:12 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Correa, etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: Zell, Chris To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: RE: Correa, etc. How did you handle capturing the pulses? Batteries? MC: Chris, if you are asking this question you are in no position to attempt the Correa PAGD experiments. You need to obtain the relevant patents and study them thoroughly, and then do your best to duplicate exactly what is in them. Don't try to be different, or 'improve' on what is disclosed. Jeff made a sincere effort, saw many effects, but not the key PAGD OU discharge. I wrote about this for IE some years ago. Mike Carrell From: revtec [mailto:revtec PTD.NET] Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:26 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Correa, etc. I have been doing PAGD experiments off and on since 1996. I saw a lot of interesting things in the tube, and captured energy pulses on diode/capacitor circuits, but over unity eludes me. Keith Nagle posted some pictures of my apparatus on his web site. They may still be there. It was a whole lot of fun working with this phenomena. I hope you try it and let us know what you find. Jeff Fink ----- Original Message ----- From: Zell, Chris To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 4:31 PM Subject: Correa, etc. Has anybody replicated any of Correa's PAGD overunity claims? I got a vacuum pump and other gear in hopes of building something that apparently nobody is pursuing. (???) On a separate note, I just got done reading "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". It is an astounding book. I have little doubt that anyone who stands in the way of our oil based economic order could be killed. If you have serious free energy findings, please be careful. You could end up like Mallove , whatever his flaws. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 07:01:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24F10gk018895; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:01:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24F0xXV018845; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:00:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:00:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304095321.02b6e698 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:00:37 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: CF on NPR In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304091123.029fafa8 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050303172419.02a71890 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050304091123.029fafa8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3410046==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <67KvWB.A.RmE.pgHKCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58272 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_3410046==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >I did read it, and that is why I sent the message. I am hoping they will >make me the "subject champion" of cold fusion. If the people in charge are >reasonably fair they will let me fix the article and then lock it. Mind you, I am not expecting a response. The people in charge probably do not see things my way. But I propose to do a few weeks of tedious work, and assemble 50 to 100 footnotes, and I'll be darned if I do that only to have some skeptic come in and erase the whole thing. The people in charge there do not seem to be hung up on formal qualifications, but if they challenge me I will tell them I have read hundreds of papers about cold fusion and the skeptics who wrote the present article apparently have read none. If the Encyclopedia were written for professionals, the best thing to do would be to replace the entire article with Storms' "Student's Guide." However, I think the Guide is a little too technical for the general public, and we have to preserve the existing article with the comments by the skeptics, so I think this calls for a shorter article based on the Guide targeted to the general public. - Jed --=====================_3410046==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

I did read it, and that is why I sent the message. I am hoping they will make me the "subject champion" of cold fusion. If the people in charge are reasonably fair they will let me fix the article and then lock it.

Mind you, I am not expecting a response. The people in charge probably do not see things my way. But I propose to do a few weeks of tedious work, and assemble 50 to 100 footnotes, and I'll be darned if I do that only to have some skeptic come in and erase the whole thing.

The people in charge there do not seem to be hung up on formal qualifications, but if they challenge me I will tell them I have read hundreds of papers about cold fusion and the skeptics who wrote the present article apparently have read none.

If the Encyclopedia were written for professionals, the best thing to do would be to replace the entire article with Storms' "Student's Guide." However, I think the Guide is a little too technical for the general public, and we have to preserve the existing article with the comments by the skeptics, so I think this calls for a shorter article based on the Guide targeted to the general public.

- Jed
--=====================_3410046==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 08:01:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24G0cgk020201; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:00:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24FxxWL019812; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:59:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:59:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003501c520d3$11b092a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <05030323595308.06465 isis> Subject: Re: Proton-Boron Hydrino Fusion(Fission)? (was: Small scale ICF) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:58:54 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58273 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark S Bilk" > Would this reaction p + 11B -> 3 alphas + 8.7 Mev > be a candidate for hydrino fusion (resulting in fission), in an > electrolytic or plasma-electrolytic cell? 80% of boron atoms > are 11B, the rest are 10B. Boric acid (H3BO3) and borax (Na2B4O7) > are highly soluble in hot water. Of course it would be the ideal candidate, if boron is a catalyst for hydrinos, or if hydrinos generated elsewhere can use solid boron as a target. That is the implication of the deGeus patent, in which - unlike Mills, he considers boron to be active for creating hydrinos, and says that he has the proof, but again - forget the plasma. Boron will never work with protons in a plasma. It will have to be either used with hydrinos or as a solid ICF target. > Is the required proton energy for hot fusion of p+11B higher > than for d+t or d+d? MUCH higher. Orders of magnitude higher. That is why only hydrinos would work in a non ICF configuration. > If so, does that mean that the proton > has to get closer to the B nucleus to fuse, thus requiring > an even tinier hydrino than for deuterino+deuterino fusion? Maybe Robin can answer that one as to the normal hydrino, but if the 1/137 hydrino is real and an expected end-product, then it will be almost neutral, like a neutron but with a larger negative near-field, then it seems to me that there should be no problem that I can see. > Here's an analysis of neutron production in p + 11B hot fusion > from secondary reactions (fixed -- it was written in all lower > case, with no paragraph breaks). Again forget hot plasma fusion. It is a non-starter. > Maybe in water the alphas would be slowed down before they could react with boron and create a neutron? Only if the "water" was heavy water, and then the cross-section is very low. However the CANDU reactor has demonstrated that heavy water under irradiation produces "extra" neutrons which are not accounted for in normal physics. Thus the surprising efficiency of the CANDU, many of which have operated at well over 100% for tens of years at a stretch. > > An "aneutronic" reaction is often defined as one where no more than > > 1% of the total fusion energy released is carried by neutrons. > > Detailed calculations [Heindler and Kernbichler, Proc. 5th > > Intl. Conf. on emerging nuclear energy systems, 1989, pp. 177-82] > > show that at least 0.1% of the reactions in a thermal p-B11 plasma > > would produce neutrons. This is still an awful lot of neutrons, > > as can be seen by the following simple calculation. This whole piece is totally meaningless, antiquated information. Again forget hot plasma fusion. It is a non-starter. Since this was written, everyone who has looked into it has agreed that boron CANNOT be used in a plasma situation with protons, so it does no one any good to waste time on a process that cannot work. Concentrate on hydrinos or solid-state ICF, where a tiny amount of frozen borane is the target for laser irradiation, ion irradiation, or a small energetic chemical reaction. This could even take the form of a small manufactured sphere, about the size of a large marble. You would have a high tensile skin of filament wound carbon, and underneath that a few mm of your chemical reactants, which would likely be in two parts (layers) separated by a heat sensitive membrane or skin, and inside of that would be a hollow sphere of cryo-grey-tin, and then a milligram core of frozen borane. There is a pronounced reverse economy-of-scale here, so there is no terrorist potential. Chill and serve... (by dropping the marble) into a tank of molten salt to start the chemcal reaction; and the resultant two-part bootstrapped compression; and then capture the heat of the reaction, then use the molten salt to produce electricity. Clear as mud, huh? You can even augment it with solar heated molten salt during the day time. This requires an adjoining factory to make the targets, of course, and is so complicated that one hope that the 1/137 hydrino is "real". Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 08:01:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24G0ogk020342; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:00:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24G0WlV020136; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:00:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:00:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304104033.02b63320 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:00:07 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: CF on NPR In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050304102829.006a5bf8 pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20050304102829.006a5bf8 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_6978609==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <57kZcD.A.S6E.eYIKCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58274 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_6978609==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Grimer wrote: >There must be some neurotic tree-hugging Vortexian who >could be relied on to play his part convincingly. >Wheel him on to explain the horrors which will ensue >if the terrorists get there before the US is ready with >adequate counter measures. If I do say so myself, I think I did a pretty good job of that in chapters 11 and 12 of the book. Seriously, even a small difference in military capabilities can translate into an enormous advantage. If the biplane fighter airplanes of the early 1930s have been available in 1916, I think WWI would have been over by the end of the year. In 1940 if the British had had two or three surface-to-air missile batteries with circa 1955 Nike technology, the Battle of Britain would have been over before it started, with zero casualties on the British side. >People as neurotic as him have an almost mesmeric ability >to inspire fear. I remember he once came round to my house >and seeing my new fridge with an internal light (an innovation >at the time), he said, > >"Are you sure that it turns off when you shut the door. > >Even though I knew perfectly well that it did. and the switch >plunger was in plain view, I'm ashamed to say that when he'd >gone I opened the fridge door just a crack to make certain. That's hysterical! But why would anyone *fear* that the light remains on? - Jed --=====================_6978609==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Grimer wrote:

There must be some neurotic tree-hugging Vortexian who
could be relied on to play his part convincingly.
Wheel him on to explain the horrors which will ensue
if the terrorists get there before the US is ready with
adequate counter measures.

If I do say so myself, I think I did a pretty good job of that in chapters 11 and 12 of the book.

Seriously, even a small difference in military capabilities can translate into an enormous advantage. If the biplane fighter airplanes of the early 1930s have been available in 1916, I think WWI would have been over by the end of the year. In 1940 if the British had had two or three surface-to-air missile batteries with circa 1955 Nike technology, the Battle of Britain would have been over before it started, with zero casualties on the British side.


People as neurotic as him have an almost mesmeric ability
to inspire fear. I remember he once came round to my house
and seeing my new fridge with an internal light (an innovation
at the time), he said,

"Are you sure that it turns off when you shut the door.

Even though I knew perfectly well that it did. and the switch
plunger was in plain view, I'm ashamed to say that when he'd
gone I opened the fridge door just a crack to make certain.

That's hysterical! But why would anyone *fear* that the light remains on?

- Jed
--=====================_6978609==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 08:36:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24Gacgk008746; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:36:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24GaaKf008736; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:36:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:36:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=CaA8IHQ4Lbq5qrg2y/L1MmhbAwlx0VaitGnC3rgGMFUvQKalFQY1UJarHXhQofoZbNMpsw30iAMACnq1tp3gYxc6daOBTn+1ixpTJJDgVzNQyNxxSKNK2x9tvOSMS3Jce1RG8ZdJWFlhh/e9mmnWb1dUz+aP6NbtQS16A2i6d28= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:36:22 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The CoFu Bomb Game In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <2.2.32.20050304041138.0068b600 pop.freeserve.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j24GaSgk008659 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58275 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: wow. grimer. can we not see political bias just oozing from every pore? please, keep that off of here. On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 02:56:06 -0600, thomas malloy wrote: > Grimer posted; > > >Why not develop a computer game in which you > >first have to kidnap various scientists such > >as Dr Bones and Professor Fleshman and then > >"persuade" them using various macabre instruments > > Don't forget the evil Dr. Park, attempting to protect the > establishment at all costs. > > >I'm sure it would have immense appeal amongst > >Bart Simpsonesque teenagers who want to needle > >their irritatingly PC bleeding heart liberal > >parents. > > Ah, if one could just figure out how to part the little darlings from > their parent's money. > > >For the younger children you could be politically > >correct and have Sonic the Hedgehog fighting > >Doctor Robotnik. Once Robotnik was a scientist > > This whole thing sounds like a pipe dream if ever I heard one. > > > >Banning would certainly bring the whole subject to > >public attention and probably make the writers a > >shedfull of money. > > Perhaps it might even get us an interview on NPR. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 09:01:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24H17gk022324; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:01:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24H13Vp022291; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:01:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:01:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006c01c520dc$22aa3080$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF463 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: Correa, etc. Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:03:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58276 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In all the written info from the Correas, I never saw a mention of whether they were going for a forward pulse or a reverse pulse or both. With all due respect to Mike, the Correas never proved that OU performance cannot be done with a proper capacitor circuit. Your idea of using a pulse transformer to get reasonable voltages may have merrit, but I suspect that the accompanying inductive reactance may be counterproductive. Large capacitors like 5600mfd 350vdc are $60 to $75 ea. So , get ready to spend a little money. You will also need ballast resistors ranging from 100 to 5000 ohm in order to see the full range of the phenomena. The 100 ohm will need to be 250 watt min. In general I found that the rate of PAGD events is controlled by the ballast resistor value and the intensity of the event is controlled by capacitance across the tube. This parallel capacitance cannot be electrolytic ( electrolytics burn up) and must be relatively small. I have tried values from 1 to 88 mfd. I call this capacitor the initiator. The Correas do not use this circuit element. While capturing rapid fire pulses with my caps and light bulbs did not show any sign of over unity, I did do some single pulse experiments two years ago that at first looked promising. I was set up to capture a forward pulse with a 3mfd initiator cap and a fairly high ballast resistor. I noted the voltage on the filter caps of my power supply and then switched off the 110vac. I then powered up the circuit. A moment later I would get a single PAGD event and then I would immediately shut off the circuit and read the voltage increase of the pulse capture cap, and then read the voltage loss of the power supply filter caps. I then did energy gain/loss calculations and often found the energy gain of the capture cap to be more than the energy loss of the power supply filter caps by as much as 11%. This didn't really prove anything since these results were within the capacitance tolerances of the caps. But, like I said, these positive results did not hold up during rapid fire operation. I firmly believe that Paulo Correa is a truly brilliant person. He has called me a buffoon. Perhaps he is correct in that judgement. But, I like to think that what I lack in genius I make up for in common sense. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zell, Chris" To: Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 9:42 AM Subject: RE: Correa, etc. > I respect your opinion and have spent considerable time analysing the > patents and related comments by Aspden. > > There is a need to make the PAGD practical - huge banks of batteries > aren't going to do it. I think we need > To look at pulse transformers to bring the voltages down to more useable > levels. > > I e-mailed the Correas and received a reply that I interpret as meaning > that no one has replicated their > Results - at least, in any open, published fashion. > > A sad matter that requires some attention in regard to the Correas' work > concerns their unusual state of > Mind. To put it simply ---- in a nutshell ---- they are far too > contentious about their work. I have no > Doubt that they will never achieve any practical commercial application > of any of their fascinating research. > Like it or not, technology is a human enterprise - with all the social > obstacles that entails. It's really > Too bad but much the same happened to Tesla in his latter years. I wish > things were different. They should > Take things in stride, accept that other people make mistakes and don't > 'get it', without a lot of patience and help. > > Maybe that's for the best - they will never meet the same suspicious > fate as Mallove or Paul Brown. > > I say the above also because their attitude of contention becomes > infectious - and that inhibits the benefit that they sincerely > Wish to promulgate. > > One of the wisest proverbs I ever heard is this: > > "Fashion is made by fools - but only fools defy fashion". Reich had > some brilliant insights but I would never > Recommend his personality to others. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Carrell [mailto:mikec snip.net] > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 9:12 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Correa, etc. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Zell, Chris > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:25 PM > Subject: RE: Correa, etc. > > > How did you handle capturing the pulses? Batteries? > > MC: Chris, if you are asking this question you are in no position to > attempt > the Correa PAGD experiments. You need to obtain the relevant patents and > study them thoroughly, and then do your best to duplicate exactly what > is in > them. Don't try to be different, or 'improve' on what is disclosed. Jeff > made a sincere effort, saw many effects, but not the key PAGD OU > discharge. > I wrote about this for IE some years ago. > > Mike Carrell > > > > > From: revtec [mailto:revtec PTD.NET] > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:26 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Correa, etc. > > > I have been doing PAGD experiments off and on since 1996. I saw a lot > of > interesting things in the tube, and captured energy pulses on > diode/capacitor circuits, but over unity eludes me. Keith Nagle posted > some > pictures of my apparatus on his web site. They may still be there. It > was > a whole lot of fun working with this phenomena. I hope you try it and > let > us know what you find. > > Jeff Fink > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Zell, Chris > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 4:31 PM > Subject: Correa, etc. > > > Has anybody replicated any of Correa's PAGD overunity > claims? I got a vacuum pump and other gear in hopes of building > something > that apparently nobody is pursuing. (???) > > On a separate note, I just got done reading > "Confessions > of an Economic Hitman". It is an astounding book. > I have little doubt that anyone who stands in the way > of > our oil based economic order could be killed. If you have serious > free energy findings, please be careful. You could > end up > like Mallove , whatever his flaws. > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 09:12:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24HCegk028466; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:12:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24HCCDg028245; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:12:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:12:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008101c520dd$247a8e40$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "leaking pen" , References: <2.2.32.20050304041138.0068b600 pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Re: The CoFu Bomb Game Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:11:01 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <2eAKK.A.K5G.pbJKCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58277 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > wow. grimer. can we not see political bias just oozing from every > pore? please, keep that off of here. Frank is English and has no particular bias towards anything in American politics, other than how it effects future energy availability and world pollution. I suspect that whatever "ooze" you feel may be more ruminative than anything in Frank's excellent postings. It would seem that under the forum guidelines, (tactful) criticism of the present administration's pro-oil and anti-environmental stance is fair-game by anyone and everyone who wants to see this world become a better, less-polluted place in which our grandkids can enjoy the same standards of living that we have. One cannot hide their head in the sand about such things as Kyoto and petro-corporate cronyism, official neglect for alternative energy (like LENR) and at the same time claim to care about our future survival as a culture. This forum is about future energy, and that subject is - unfortunately -inextricably tied to politics If you support, or have any influence, with president Bush, then the best place to use your influence is in re-education of the anti-ecology extremists in that party, rather than criticizing those here who (especially those from other nations) rightly express shock at the depth of ignorance in US governmental policy towards the needs and concerns world-at-large. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 09:15:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24HFEgk029829; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:15:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24HF80b029736; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:15:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:15:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050304091840.04f22de0 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:19:35 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: The CoFu Bomb Game In-Reply-To: References: <2.2.32.20050304041138.0068b600 pop.freeserve.net> <2.2.32.20050304041138.0068b600 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58278 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>Why not develop a computer game in which you >>first have to kidnap various scientists such >>as Dr Bones and Professor Fleshman and then >>"persuade" them using various macabre instruments > >Don't forget the evil Dr. Park, attempting to protect the establishment at >all costs. Keep with the theme, that would be the evil Dr. Pork, I believe. s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 09:28:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24HRWgk003065; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:27:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24HRD5t002901; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:27:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:27:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050304092154.04eeb9d8 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:31:50 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: RE: CF on NPR In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304091123.029fafa8 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050303172419.02a71890 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <5h_FXB.A.Et.vpJKCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58279 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Jed wrote: >Yes, I do -- for a good reason. The short segment they broadcast with Ira >Flatow was quite fair and accurate. Flatow has often communicated with us >that he knows what the story is. He was a little timid, but accurate. I am >hoping the other reporters on NPR contact him and discuss the matter. >Since he is their science reporter it is likely they will. Jed - If mainstream news media did their job, there would be no need for Infinite Energy or New Energy Times. If mainstream science publishing did their job, there would be no need for LENR-CANR.org. But these entities cater to the dominant, safe public view. They lack either/both the courage or the foresight to explore the unknown. Another viewpoint: Henry Bauer touches on the very heart of why mainstream science journalism has been largely unwilling/unable to bridge the communication gap between the cold fusion community and the broader science community. "A constant dilemma for reporters," Bauer says, "is that they need access to sources, and if they publish material that casts doubt on the official view, they risk losing access to official sources." Source: Journal of Scientific Exploration, "Science in the 21st Century: Knowledge Monopolies and Research Cartels," by Henry H. Bauer (Vol. 18 #4 pp. 643--660, Winter 2004) http://newenergytimes.com/Library/2004BauerH-21stCenturyScience.pdf Courtesy of http://www.scientificexploration.org/index.html s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 09:42:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24Hfmgk008866; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:41:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24Hfjoj008831; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:41:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:41:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr7ej$o8lieu mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.90,135,1107752400"; d="scan'208"; a="814402014:sNHT12612812" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: The work of Chris Arnold Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:41:36 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58280 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts, Have any in this group kept tabs on the work being performed by the inventor, Chris Arnold, specifically his Pulsed Plasma technology? Check out: http://hometown.aol.com/hypercom59/ A little history (as I understand it): I recall there had been some scathing criticism of Mr. Arnold's work at the hydrino discussion group a few years ago - by the usual skeptics. As usual, nothing ever came of the discussion. Personally, I'm not sure Mr. Arnold is a quack. He appears to be slowly accumulating evidence from labs (perhaps some of them might even be considered reputable labs!) that appear to back up his claims. Chris claims to be producing hybrid doped Hydrogenated Diamond Like Carbon (HDLC) particles rather than the well known HDLC films. He claims to have produced Synthetic Diamond nono-particles. Lawrence Livermore tested Chris's Bucky Diamonds and discovered them to be a semiconductor whereby enforcing his original deduction that his material should be a Diamond Semiconductor. Chris claims the only known method of Bucky Diamond manufacture is with TNT and detonation technology. His patented device produces what is looking like Bucky Diamond by purely electronic means in a process known as Dense Plasma Focus. Of particular interest to Vorts: In the past Chris hinted that his "pulsed plasma technology" indicated the possibility of OU at work. However, such OU claims seem to have been removed. Perhaps Chris is focusing on the commercialization of his Bucky Diamond process which may turn out to be significantly cheaper than current means. It would make sense to me that a present he might not care to draw additional controversy. Such claims might turn out to be more of a distraction than a benefit to his current business plans. I must confess. Much of what Chris claims to be doing is beyond my educational grasp to pass judgment one way or other. How'bout comments from the peanut gallery? Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 09:43:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24HgTgk009235; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:42:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24HgNav009188; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:42:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:42:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Correa, etc. Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:43:35 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF463 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58281 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris writes: >A sad matter that requires some attention in regard >to the Correas' work concerns their unusual state of Mind. We have discussed Correas' work before on Vo. You can look in the archive for the details. Paulo follows the list very closely, but only posts under pseudonyms if at all. I was very interested in the work when I first came across the patents, but subsequent discussions with his alternate persona's made me question his ability to objectively judge the experiments he conducts. I have been told that this is a strategy to discourage competitors; you can make of that what you will. While I can agree with Mike on the value of an accurate reproduction of the tech disclosed in the patents, practically speaking that cannot happen unless Paulo participates in an active way, which he will not. So we have independent workers like Jeff, who I think can contribute to the general understanding even if they fail to reproduce the effects claimed. For that reason I posted some of Jeffs' pictures to my corporate site a year ago or so. I just completely updated the site and the links are now no doubt dead. Jeff has his own website, and is quite capable of posting them there. Why he does not do that you must ask of him directly. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 09:57:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24Hvagk016322; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:57:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24HvVrL016280; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:57:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:57:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050304175717.006bda4c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:57:17 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: The CoFu Bomb Game Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58282 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:19 am 04-03-05 -0800, Steven Krivit wrote: > >>>Why not develop a computer game in which you >>>first have to kidnap various scientists such >>>as Dr Bones and Professor Fleshman and then >>>"persuade" them using various macabre instruments... >> >>Don't forget the evil Dr. Park, attempting to protect the establishment at >>all costs. >Keep with the theme, that would be the evil Dr. Pork, I believe. He's got it. By jove, I think he's got it. [ROTFL] Professsor Higgins From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 10:20:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24IKcgk027238; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:20:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24IKZO7027223; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:20:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:20:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050304182024.00686e1c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:20:24 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: CF on NPR Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58283 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:00 am 04-03-05 -0500, you wrote: >Grimer wrote: > >>There must be some neurotic tree-hugging Vortexian who >>could be relied on to play his part convincingly. >>Wheel him on to explain the horrors which will ensue >>if the terrorists get there before the US is ready with >>adequate counter measures. > >If I do say so myself, I think I did a pretty good job of that in chapters >11 and 12 of the book. > >Seriously, even a small difference in military capabilities can translate >into an enormous advantage. If the biplane fighter airplanes of the early >1930s have been available in 1916, I think WWI would have been over by the >end of the year. In 1940 if the British had had two or three surface-to-air >missile batteries with circa 1955 Nike technology, the Battle of Britain >would have been over before it started, with zero casualties on the British >side. > > >>People as neurotic as him have an almost mesmeric ability >>to inspire fear. I remember he once came round to my house >>and seeing my new fridge with an internal light (an innovation >>at the time), he said, >> >>"Are you sure that it turns off when you shut the door. >> >>Even though I knew perfectly well that it did. and the switch >>plunger was in plain view, I'm ashamed to say that when he'd >>gone I opened the fridge door just a crack to make certain. > That's hysterical! But why would anyone > *fear* that the light remains on? > > - Jed I think he thought it would heat the fridge up, Jed. Medical people aren't very good with numbers (pace Mills). Calculus gives them nightmares, at least it did my brother which is why he switched to biology in the 6th form. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 10:50:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24Inlgk009635; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:49:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24Ine4K009573; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:49:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:49:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=EfZjA+psNIe4xTQM3CHBB+LfFeVPdx8oL0rD722NeSuE5Upw+cy8t3ibauRYowJ/QYua4l7YTItomh8+ktzt9CiXW55duSWqzl3rckv2ydZFqBPs5ls81O59yoYSjvYhyPEijwHoVHQ40V5jAIbAK2axutyyapz8S/qwmAD9DMs= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:49:30 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The CoFu Bomb Game In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050304175717.006bda4c pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <2.2.32.20050304175717.006bda4c pop.freeserve.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j24InYgk009505 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58284 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: err, oops. I'm sure it would have immense appeal amongst Bart Simpsonesque teenagers who want to needle their irritatingly PC bleeding heart liberal parents. im sorry, i thought you were using the forum to take a jab at the "pc" and the like. if that was sarcasm, i need to fix my sarcasm meter, and check the fluid level in my sense of humours. ' my apologies On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:57:17 +0000, Grimer wrote: > At 09:19 am 04-03-05 -0800, Steven Krivit wrote: > > > >>>Why not develop a computer game in which you > >>>first have to kidnap various scientists such > >>>as Dr Bones and Professor Fleshman and then > >>>"persuade" them using various macabre instruments... > >> > >>Don't forget the evil Dr. Park, attempting to protect the establishment at > >>all costs. > > >Keep with the theme, that would be the evil Dr. Pork, I believe. > > He's got it. By jove, I think he's got it. [ROTFL] > > Professsor Higgins > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 10:50:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24IoJgk009985; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:50:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24IoCot009907; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:50:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:50:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002301c520eb$5a467ee0$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: Subject: Way off topic Fw: CAB RIDE Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:52:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58285 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: CAB RIDE > > >>Twenty years ago, I drove a cab for a living. > > >>When I arrived at 2:30 a.m., the building was dark > > >>except for a single light in a ground floor window. > > >>Under these circumstances, many drivers would > > >>just honk once or twice, wait a minute, then drive > > >>away. > > >> > > >>But, I had seen too many impoverished people who > > >>depended on taxis as their only means of transportation. Unless a > > >>situation smelled of danger, I always went to the door. This passenger > > >>might be someone who needs my assistance, I reasoned to myself. > > >> > > >>So I walked to the door and knocked. "Just a minute", answered a > > >>frail, elderly voice. I could hear something being dragged across the > > >>floor. > > >> > > >>After a long pause, the door opened. A small woman in > > >>her 80's stood before me. She was wearing a print dress > > >>and a pillbox hat with a veil pinned on it, like somebody > > >>out of a 1940s movie. By her side was a small nylon > > >>suitcase. The apartment looked as if no one had lived in > > >>it for years. All the furniture was covered with sheets. > > >> > > >>There were no clocks on the walls, no knickknacks or > > >>utensils on the counters. In the corner was a cardboard > > >>box filled with photos and glassware. > > >> > > >>"Would you carry my bag out to the car?" she said. I took > > >>the suitcase to the cab, then returned to assist the woman. > > >> > > >>She took my arm and we walked slowly toward the curb. > > >>She kept thanking me for my kindness. > > >> > > >>"It's nothing", I told her. "I just try to treat my passengers the way > > >>I would want my mother treated". > > >> > > >>"Oh, you're such a good boy", she said. > > >> > > >>When we got in the cab, she gave me an address, then asked, "Could you > > >>drive > > >>through downtown?" > > >> > > >>"It's not the shortest way," I answered quickly. > > >> > > >>"Oh, I don't mind," she said. "I'm in no hurry. I'm on my > > >>way to a hospice". > > >> > > >>I looked in the rear-view mirror. Her eyes were glistening. "I don't > > >>have any family left," she continued. "The doctor says I don't have > > >>very long." > > >> > > >>I quietly reached over and shut off the meter. "What route would you > > >>like > > >>me > > >>to take?" I asked. > > >> > > >>For the next two hours, we drove through the city. She > > >>showed me the building where she had once worked as > > >>an elevator operator. > > >> > > >>We drove through the neighborhood where she and her > > >>husband had lived when they were newlyweds. She had > > >>me pull up in front of a furniture warehouse that had > > >>once been a ballroom where she had gone dancing as a > > >>girl. > > >> > > >>Sometimes she'd ask me to slow in front of a particular building or > > >>corner and would sit staring into the darkness, saying nothing. > > >> > > >>As the first hint of sun was creasing the horizon, she suddenly said, > > >>"I'm tired. Let's go now." > > >> > > >>We drove in silence to the address she had given me. > > >>It was a low building, like a small convalescent home, > > >>with a driveway that passed under a portico. > > >> > > >>Two orderlies came out to the cab as soon as we pulled > > >>up. They were solicitous and intent, watching her every > > >>move. They must have been expecting her. > > >> > > >>I opened the trunk and took the small suitcase to the > > >>door. The woman was already seated in a wheelchair. > > >> > > >>"How much do I owe you?" she asked, reaching into her > > >>purse. > > >> > > >>"Nothing," I said. > > >> > > >>"You have to make a living," she answered. > > >> > > >>"There are other passengers," I responded. > > >> > > >>Almost without thinking, I bent and gave her a hug. > > >>She held onto me tightly. > > >> > > >>"You gave an old woman a little moment of joy," she > > >>said. "Thank you." > > >> > > >>I squeezed her hand, then walked into the dim morning > > >>light. > > >> > > >>Behind me, a door shut. It was the sound of the closing > > >>of a life. I didn't pick up any more passengers that shift. > > >>I drove aimlessly lost in thought. For the rest of that day, I could > > >>hardly talk. > > >> > > >>What if that woman had gotten an angry driver, or one > > >>who was impatient to end his shift? > > >> > > >>What if I had refused to take the run, or had honked once, then driven > > >>away? > > >> > > >>On a quick review, I don't think that I have done anything more > > >>important in my life. We're conditioned to think that our lives > > >>revolve around great moments. > > >> > > >>But great moments often catch us unaware - beautifully wrapped in what > > >>others may consider a small one. > > >> > > >>PEOPLE MAY NOT REMEMBER EXACTLY WHAT > > >>YOU DID, OR WHAT YOU SAID, > > >> > > >>~BUT ~ > > >> > > >>THEY WILL ALWAYS REMEMBER HOW YOU MADE > > >>THEM FEEL. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Ten things God won't ask: > > >> > > >>1...God won't ask what kind of car you drove; He'll ask how many > > >>people > > >>you > > >>drove who didn't have transportation. > > >> > > >>2...God won't ask the square footage of your house, He'll ask how many > > >>people you welcomed into your home. > > >> > > >>3...God won't ask about the clothes you had in your closet, He'll ask > > >>how many you helped to clothe. > > >> > > >>4...God won't ask what your highest salary was, He'll ask > > >>if you compromised your character to obtain it. > > >> > > >>5...God won't ask what your job title was, He'll ask if you performed > > >>your job to the best of your ability. > > >> > > >>6...God won't ask how many friends you had, He'll ask how many people > > >>to whom you were a friend. > > >> > > >>7...God won't ask in what neighborhood you lived, > > >>He'll ask how you treated your neighbors. > > >> > > >>8..God won't ask about the color of your skin, He'll ask about the > > >>content of your character. > > >> > > >>9...God won't ask why it took you so long to seek Salvation, He'll > > >>lovingly > > >>take you to your mansion in heaven, and not to the gates of Hell. > > >> > > >>10...God won't ask how many people you forwarded this to, He'll ask if > > >>you were ashamed to pass it on to your friends. > > >> > > >>Happy moments, praise God. Difficult moments, seek God. Quiet moments, > > >>worship God. Painful moments, trust God. Every moment, thank God > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > GEE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 11:26:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24JQWgk002259; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:26:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24JQU6I002241; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:26:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:26:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304142024.02b56e60 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:26:10 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: CF on NPR In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050304182024.00686e1c pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20050304182024.00686e1c pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_19344062==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58286 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_19344062==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Grimer wrote: > I think he thought it would heat the fridge up, Jed. > Medical people aren't very good with numbers (pace Mills). . . . Hmm . . . Well, it would heat it up, naturally. But the fact that the fridge was cold when you opened the door showed that the compressor was keeping up, and removing more heat than the bulb generated. The only problem, then, was the cost of running the 20 W bulb and removing the heat. That would be ~100 W continuous, 2.4 KWH per day, about $0.20 per day worst case. If it was a novelty, I guess I would have checked to be sure the switch was working, too. No point in throwing away money. - Jed --=====================_19344062==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Grimer wrote:

 I think he thought it would heat the fridge up, Jed.
 Medical people aren't very good with numbers (pace Mills). . . .

Hmm . . . Well, it would heat it up, naturally. But the fact that the fridge was cold when you opened the door showed that the compressor was keeping up, and removing more heat than the bulb generated. The only problem, then, was the cost of running the 20 W bulb and removing the heat. That would be ~100 W continuous, 2.4 KWH per day, about $0.20 per day worst case.

If it was a novelty, I guess I would have checked to be sure the switch was working, too. No point in throwing away money.

- Jed
--=====================_19344062==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 11:38:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24JcAgk011133; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:38:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24Jbx0d011041; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:37:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:37:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <05abe936-f05d-4faa-be50-4ee8980f13cd> Message-ID: <00a101c520f1$a1d9a650$9c50ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF463 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <006c01c520dc$22aa3080$6601a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> Subject: Re: Correa, etc. Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:32:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58287 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jeff Fink wrote: > In all the written info from the Correas, I never saw a mention of whether > they were going for a forward pulse or a reverse pulse or both. With all > due respect to Mike, the Correas never proved that OU performance cannot be > done with a proper capacitor circuit. In the Correa circuit, the energy generated in the cell is full wave rectified and dumped into a capacitor shunted by a battery pack. A PAGD pulse may contain 100 joules at several hundred volts. What *must not happen* is that the terminal voltage of the cell rise during the PAGD pulse, for that will quench it. Nor can you trigger it. It is not that a capacitor bank won't work, it just has to be ***very large***. Much larger than Jeff tried. Your idea of using a pulse > transformer to get reasonable voltages may have merrit, but I suspect that > the accompanying inductive reactance may be counterproductive. Large > capacitors like 5600mfd 350vdc are $60 to $75 ea. So , get ready to spend a > little money. That's 0.0056 farad. Q = CV, 1 joule will charge it to 178 volts and 100 joules to 17,800 volts. To prevent the terminal voltage from rising to, say 100 volts, 100 farads of capactors would be needed, or 17,857 capcitors. By comparison, batteries look pretty good. > > You will also need ballast resistors ranging from 100 to 5000 ohm in order > to see the full range of the phenomena. The 100 ohm will need to be 250 > watt min. > > In general I found that the rate of PAGD events is controlled by the ballast > resistor value and the intensity of the event is controlled by capacitance > across the tube. You absolutely do not use a capacitance across the tube. What you have built is a gas-discharge relaxation oscillator equivalent to any common strobe flash. It is ***not*** a PAGD reactor. This parallel capacitance cannot be electrolytic ( > electrolytics burn up) and must be relatively small. I have tried values > from 1 to 88 mfd. I call this capacitor the initiator. The Correas do not > use this circuit element. For very good reason. Jeff has "known better" and not duplicated what the Correas used. > > While capturing rapid fire pulses with my caps and light bulbs did not show > any sign of over unity, I did do some single pulse experiments two years ago > that at first looked promising. You have not duplicated what the Correas did on several important points. The circuit looks 'odd' but that is what they say works. > > I was set up to capture a forward pulse with a 3mfd initiator cap and a > fairly high ballast resistor. I noted the voltage on the filter caps of my > power supply and then switched off the 110vac. I then powered up the > circuit. A moment later I would get a single PAGD event and then I would > immediately shut off the circuit and read the voltage increase of the pulse > capture cap, and then read the voltage loss of the power supply filter caps. > I then did energy gain/loss calculations and often found the energy gain of > the capture cap to be more than the energy loss of the power supply filter > caps by as much as 11%. This didn't really prove anything since these > results were within the capacitance tolerances of the caps. But, like I > said, these positive results did not hold up during rapid fire operation. > > I firmly believe that Paulo Correa is a truly brilliant person. He has > called me a buffoon. Perhaps he is correct in that judgement. But, I like > to think that what I lack in genius I make up for in common sense. Jeff, common sense can be misleading when dealing with something "new". When I approached the Correas to write about PAGD, I did so as a student, without preconceptions as to what is or is not "common sense". I assumed they had discovered a truly new phenomenon that did not necessarily obey any ordinary rules, and that they had empirically worked out how to evoke it and control it. After all, here is a simple tube in which 100 joule flashes of energy appear spontaneously when the proper conditions are provided. Where in all of conventional science and "common sense" is there precedence for this? Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 11:39:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24JdHgk011763; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:39:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24JcvQL011551; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:38:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:38:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304142939.02b5b1f8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:38:29 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: CF on NPR In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20050304092154.04eeb9d8 mail.dlsi.net> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050303172419.02a71890 pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20050304092154.04eeb9d8 mail.dlsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_20080265==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58288 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_20080265==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Steven Krivit wrote: >Henry Bauer touches on the very heart of why mainstream science journalism >has been largely unwilling/unable to bridge the communication gap between >the cold fusion community and the broader science community. "A constant >dilemma for reporters," Bauer says, "is that they need access to sources, >and if they publish material that casts doubt on the official view, they >risk losing access to official sources." That is true. And yet Flatow's report was accurate and positive, albeit timid. Some people in the media get away with reporting facts about cold fusion, and they are not punished by losing access. I suspect the others would also escape unscathed, but perhaps they are cowards and do not want to risk it. Most, I think, simply buy the establishment's line without question. I have contacted many people in the media and elsewhere. Only a few have responded, and most of those have parroted the Scientific American or some other official source. Often they cite phantom sources. They claim the DoE ERAB report said this or that, when it said nothing of the kind. In other words, laziness causes more harm than fear. - Jed --=====================_20080265==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Steven Krivit wrote:

Henry Bauer touches on the very heart of why mainstream science journalism has been largely unwilling/unable to bridge the communication gap between the cold fusion community and the broader science community. "A constant dilemma for reporters," Bauer says, "is that they need access to sources, and if they publish material that casts doubt on the official view, they risk losing access to official sources."

That is true. And yet Flatow's report was accurate and positive, albeit timid. Some people in the media get away with reporting facts about cold fusion, and they are not punished by losing access. I suspect the others would also escape unscathed, but perhaps they are cowards and do not want to risk it. Most, I think, simply buy the establishment's line without question. I have contacted many people in the media and elsewhere. Only a few have responded, and most of those have parroted the Scientific American or some other official source. Often they cite phantom sources. They claim the DoE ERAB report said this or that, when it said nothing of the kind. In other words, laziness causes more harm than fear.

- Jed
--=====================_20080265==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 12:40:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24KeKgk008538; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:40:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24KeIlx008520; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:40:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:40:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050304124134.04f4f7c8 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 12:45:01 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: RE: CF on NPR In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304142939.02b5b1f8 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050304092154.04eeb9d8 mail.dlsi.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050303172419.02a71890 pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20050304092154.04eeb9d8 mail.dlsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58289 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >That is true. And yet Flatow's report was accurate and positive, albeit >timid. Some people in the media get away with reporting facts about cold >fusion, and they are not punished by losing access. I suspect the others >would also escape unscathed, but perhaps they are cowards and do not want >to risk it. Most, I think, simply buy the establishment's line without >question. I have contacted many people in the media and elsewhere. Only a >few have responded, and most of those have parroted the Scientific >American or some other official source. Often they cite phantom sources. >They claim the DoE ERAB report said this or that, when it said nothing of >the kind. In other words, laziness causes more harm than fear. > >- Jed Jed, I forgot to mention. Yes, I agree with you about Flatow. I have listened to his question and dialogue in cf reports he has done and it is crystal clear to me that he knows much more than he tells. But he knows how to keep his producers happy, and keep his job, too. And that is his choice. s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 12:58:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24KvUgk015840; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:57:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24KvFtr015745; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:57:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:57:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304153701.02b4d308 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 15:54:35 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Correa, etc. In-Reply-To: <00a101c520f1$a1d9a650$9c50ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF463 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <006c01c520dc$22aa3080$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> <00a101c520f1$a1d9a650$9c50ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <6GSNRB.A.81D.quMKCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58290 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >joules to 17,800 volts. To prevent the terminal voltage from rising to, say >100 volts, 100 farads of capactors would be needed, or 17,857 capcitors. By >comparison, batteries look pretty good. . . . >You absolutely do not use a capacitance across the tube. What you have built >is a gas-discharge relaxation oscillator equivalent to any common strobe >flash. It is ***not*** a PAGD reactor. If this is the case, then Jeff has taken a serious wrong turn, and he has been wasting his time. That has often happened with cold fusion over the years. It is a terrible shame. Message to Mike: Why can't you & Jeff get together and iron this out? Message to Jeff: Would you be willing to try again? Keith Nagel is probably right when he says, "practically speaking" a replication is impossible unless "Paulo participates in an active way, which he will not." That is the worst shame of all. Evidently, cold fusion was much easier to reproduce than the pagd (assuming the pagd is real). In 1989, knowledge of electrochemistry was widespread, so even though Fleischmann and Pons were not available to go around holding other people's hands, many researchers such as Bockris, Oriani, Huggins and Miles were able to reproduce it on their own. If the necessary skills and knowledge have been as obscure as those required for the pagd, it probably would have been lost. "Replication" is a slippery standard. When an effect is successfully replicated, you know the it is real -- simple enough. But when it is *not* replicated, it can be very difficult to judge what happened. Perhaps the effect does not exist after all. Or the people trying to replicate are making honest mistakes. Or they are only making a desultory effort. They may even be deliberately trying to prove that the effect does not exist. You would have to be a mind reader to sort out events. A replication is a clear signal from Mother Nature. A non-replication is a complicated human event, colored by understanding, knowledge, politics, emotion, and so on. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 13:18:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24LHrgk023870; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:17:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24LHoxQ023841; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:17:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:17:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Correa, etc. Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:19:04 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304153701.02b4d308 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58291 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike writes: >You absolutely do not use a capacitance across the tube. What you have built >is a gas-discharge relaxation oscillator equivalent to any common strobe >flash. It is ***not*** a PAGD reactor. I agree with Mike in this. Electrode capacity and geometry are important parameters for this effect; add additional capacity and you change discharge regimes from AGD to simple arc discharge. BTW, a substantial amount of industrial research has gone into AGD, do a literature and patent search and you will see. The main industrial use is for things like nitriding metal surfaces. A question for Mike: does Paulo have a current collection of refs on his website relevant to this work? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 13:41:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24Levgk004884; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:40:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24Let0x004861; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:40:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:40:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4228D661.4070405 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:42:57 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Correa, etc. References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF463 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <006c01c520dc$22aa3080$6601a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> <00a101c520f1$a1d9a650$9c50ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050304153701.02b4d308@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304153701.02b4d308 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3jA7YD.A.wLB.lXNKCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58292 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Mike Carrell wrote: > >> joules to 17,800 volts. To prevent the terminal voltage from rising >> to, say >> 100 volts, 100 farads of capactors would be needed, or 17,857 >> capcitors. By >> comparison, batteries look pretty good. > > . . . > >> You absolutely do not use a capacitance across the tube. What you have >> built >> is a gas-discharge relaxation oscillator equivalent to any common strobe >> flash. It is ***not*** a PAGD reactor. > > > If this is the case, then Jeff has taken a serious wrong turn, and he > has been wasting his time. That has often happened with cold fusion over > the years. It is a terrible shame. > > Message to Mike: Why can't you & Jeff get together and iron this out? > > Message to Jeff: Would you be willing to try again? > > Keith Nagel is probably right when he says, "practically speaking" a > replication is impossible unless "Paulo participates in an active way, > which he will not." That is the worst shame of all. > > Evidently, cold fusion was much easier to reproduce than the pagd > (assuming the pagd is real). In 1989, knowledge of electrochemistry was > widespread, so even though Fleischmann and Pons were not available to go > around holding other people's hands, many researchers such as Bockris, > Oriani, Huggins and Miles were able to reproduce it on their own. If the > necessary skills and knowledge have been as obscure as those required > for the pagd, it probably would have been lost. While I agree with Jed about the basic point he is making, success in replicating the cold fusion claims is not based on skill, or at least not the kind of skill Jed is noting. Success has been based on chance creation of the nuclear active environment. No one, even today, knows what this environment looks like or how to create it on purpose. Repeated success is based on having a chance success that the researcher was able to duplicate by holding the conditions constant. Naturally, because many variables are involved, not all of them can be held constant. Consequently, success is frequently marred by many failures, even for the more successful researchers. Only gradually, have some of the variables been identified. This has happened only because a few people kept trying and failing. Initially, the effect was thought to occur in bulk palladium. Consequently, great effort was devoted to obtaining palladium that could load to high D/Pd ratios. Now we know that this approach is not important. A variety of materials work and these can be applied as thin layers to inert materials. The point is that if the PAGD effect is like cold fusion, it probably can be initiated several different ways, some of which can be found by the same kind of trial and error used by the Correas. > > "Replication" is a slippery standard. When an effect is successfully > replicated, you know the it is real -- simple enough. But when it is > *not* replicated, it can be very difficult to judge what happened. > Perhaps the effect does not exist after all. Or the people trying to > replicate are making honest mistakes. Or they are only making a > desultory effort. They may even be deliberately trying to prove that the > effect does not exist. You would have to be a mind reader to sort out > events. A replication is a clear signal from Mother Nature. A > non-replication is a complicated human event, colored by understanding, > knowledge, politics, emotion, and so on. l would also like to point out that a strict duplication is not replication. It is possible for both studies to make the same mistakes. Replication is most impressive when the same effect can be produced several different ways, each of which show that the same variables are having the same effect on the outcome. Cold fusion has passed this test. The PAGD effect has not. Regards, Ed > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 13:55:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24LtOgk010701; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:55:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24Lt3vR010575; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:55:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:55:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <184701c52104$bb48bfa0$346f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF463 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <006c01c520dc$22aa3080$6601a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> <00a101c520f1$a1d9a650$9c50ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050304153701.02b4d308@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Correa, etc. Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:42:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58293 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > Mike Carrell wrote: > > >joules to 17,800 volts. To prevent the terminal voltage from rising to, say > >100 volts, 100 farads of capactors would be needed, or 17,857 capcitors. By > >comparison, batteries look pretty good. > . . . > >You absolutely do not use a capacitance across the tube. What you have built > >is a gas-discharge relaxation oscillator equivalent to any common strobe > >flash. It is ***not*** a PAGD reactor. > > If this is the case, then Jeff has taken a serious wrong turn, and he has > been wasting his time. That has often happened with cold fusion over the > years. It is a terrible shame. > > Message to Mike: Why can't you & Jeff get together and iron this out? > > Message to Jeff: Would you be willing to try again? > > Keith Nagel is probably right when he says, "practically speaking" a > replication is impossible unless "Paulo participates in an active way, > which he will not." That is the worst shame of all. A patent is supposed to disclose how to practice a new discovery to those "skilled in the art". The Correa patents are the most densly technical I have seen, they are virtual theses. There is lots and lots of information tucked into the text and references. I even went to the NY public library to check up on an earl;y reference given in one of the Correa patents. As with CF there are lots of things to go wrong. Alexandra Correa is a technical glassblower who made many of the cells that were tested. The one that appears in videos and some illustrations is rather straightforward, apparently, but there are stipulations on the materials to be used by alloy number. Nothing I saw in there was trivial and I read and re-read and dug and asked questions. If Keith's "practically speaking" means the Correas instructing one in all the necessary arts --perhaps like how to clean electrode surfaces -- then the casual 'replicator' is asking too much unless a license fee is paid. Even with all that, there are certain conditions of voltage and pressure that have to exist, which are indicated in the patents, which the experimenter has to discover for himself once he has done the rest of the work. Just producing the effect does not carry one into product development. There is lots of work to be done, once one realizes that this is new physics, that PAGD is an aether energy "transducer". > > Evidently, cold fusion was much easier to reproduce than the pagd (assuming > the pagd is real). In 1989, knowledge of electrochemistry was widespread, > so even though Fleischmann and Pons were not available to go around holding > other people's hands, many researchers such as Bockris, Oriani, Huggins and > Miles were able to reproduce it on their own. If the necessary skills and > knowledge have been as obscure as those required for the pagd, it probably > would have been lost. Note that Bockris, Oriani, Huggins and Miles are accomplished experimental scientists who did not need much more than knowledge of what F&P found to do likewise. Many did not realize the importance of the Pd cathode metallurgy, or adequate calorimetry, etc. and etc. Similarly, to do PAGD one has be knowledgeable about glow discharge phenomena and related matters that may not converge in the head of someone without adequate study. The notion that PAGD is "obscure" is primarily a matter of not taking it seriously enough to devote adequate study, or dismissing the notion that it is an aether energy transducer and "must" be "really" something else. Same deal with CF, as we all painfully know. > > "Replication" is a slippery standard. When an effect is successfully > replicated, you know the it is real -- simple enough. But when it is *not* > replicated, it can be very difficult to judge what happened. Perhaps the > effect does not exist after all. Or the people trying to replicate are > making honest mistakes. Or they are only making a desultory effort. They > may even be deliberately trying to prove that the effect does not exist. > You would have to be a mind reader to sort out events. A replication is a > clear signal from Mother Nature. A non-replication is a complicated human > event, colored by understanding, knowledge, politics, emotion, and so on. This is very well stated by Jed, a guy who has been in the trenches for years. Scott Little at Earth Tech has made attempts to verify various OU claims through the years. I've seen his shop, talked to him, he's an honest man. When some effect is defined well enough that he can produce it, it is perhaps ready for prime time, but with his facilities he could not make a transistor from scratch. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 14:24:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24MOBgk022346; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:24:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24MO1DL022218; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:24:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:24:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304165308.02bf3478 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:07:40 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: More military might-have-beens . . . and nightmare scenarios Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <7SkAo.A.6aF.__NKCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58294 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The example I gave of using 1950s technology in 1940 to win the Battle of Britain was purely imaginary, but there have been many instances in history when very cheap war-winning technology has actually been available, or was invented just a few months after it was needed. There are examples of weapons that were deployed in the nick of time to prevent disaster. Radar and antibiotics are good examples. Very often these new devices (both the weapons and the inventions like radar which have wider uses) are dirt cheap compared to ordinary weapons. They are thousands or millions of times cheaper than the wars that they win -- or prolong. Radar can be thought of as a form of asymmetrical warfare. After World War I, Winston Churchill felt that the tank might have won the war in 1917, if only it had been kept secret properly, and deployed intelligently, instead of being thrown into battle piecemeal. Tanks combined with skilled generalship almost did win the war, in the battle of Cambrai, but the advantage was squandered. See: J. Laffin, "British Butchers and Bunglers of World War I," (Sutton, 1988). If, during the Battle of Gettysburg, a half-dozen of the 1865 model improved Gatling guns have been available to one side and not the other, I believe the war would ended with Pickett's charge. (If both sides had had them, it would have been a bloody trench war stalemate like World War I -- as indeed it became by the time Gatling guns were deployed in 1864 at Petersburg.) It is not out of the question that someone might develop cold fusion enough to produce something like the dreadful remote control "mini weapons" and "crows" I described in the book, in Chapter 11. You would not have to perfect a megawatt-scale cold fusion reactors to produce them; they would require only 10 or 20 Watts mechanical. Something with the power of a remote-control model airplane or helicopter would do the job. They would be very cheap to manufacture. I did not go into detail, but consider an organization such as Al Qaeda decided to make some. Al Qaeda has tons of money. (The CIA says that 95% of men under 40 in Saudi Arabia approve of Al Qaeda and consider Bin Laden a national hero, so I am sure they have unlimited funds at their disposal.) If the technology were available, it could easily afford 50,000 remote-control robot "crows." They would be similar to model airplanes and would cost perhaps $300 each in quantity, or $15 million total. In the book I described how such devices might be used to attack a military base and go around assassinating people wearing uniforms. It does not take much imagination to think of what else they might do, in the hands of people who have no qualms about committing cold-blooded mass murder. Suppose, for example, you had 50,000 crows available, and a few hundred people hiding in the U.S. to control them. On day one you randomly select and kill a 16 people in cities and towns across the country. The next day you kill 32. Then 64, 128 . . . then you go on the radio and announced that the United States must immediately withdraw all troops from the Middle East and the price of oil will be $100 starting now, or the killing will escalate. Of course the US government would defiantly refuse at first. But imagine how things would be when the numbers reached 2,048 in a single day? This would be after 4,080 deaths, and you would still have a stock of 46,000 "robots" remaining. The country would be in an absolute uproar, with chaos everywhere. Europe and Japan would also be in hysterics. People everywhere would stay indoors all day long; food would rot in the stores; patients would die in hospitals, women in labor would be stranded, and people would soon starve. There would be riots, and the police and the military would be overwhelmed. Think of what happened in Washington, DC a few years ago when a pair of snipers began shooting people at random. Multiply that by 1024, then 2048 . . . I think a few days later the U.S. would -- in effect -- negotiate a surrender. Of course you can go around killing 1,024 people a day with baseball bats or guns, and we kill roughly 70 people a day with automobiles by accident, and 30 others more-or-less intentionally by drinking and driving. But the "crows" would make it much easier to carry out this lunatic scheme, and they would be much harder to resist or defeat. This is mere science fiction now, but I think it may be closer to actuality than people realize. If anything like this does happen, it will certainly be the fault of the US government and of institutions such as the APS. History will judge harshly, just as it would have judged Roosevelt if he had had ignored the letter from Einstein, and the Germans or the Japanese had moved ahead with the development of nuclear weapons. The Japanese probably could not have done it, but I think the Germans could have. They had all the labor and resources of Europe at their command. They spent vast sums on similar projects, such as building the Western Wall to resist the invasion of France. Actually, history might not judge so harshly, because the history books are written by the winners. Your grandchildren may be taught that this was how enlightenment and Shariah Islamic law came to the benighted people of North America, how the despotic U.S. passed into history, and why our women must wear hijab, and so on. This may sound outlandish, but very often history has been changed radically by some humble new gadget that fits in the palm of your hand, such as movable type or 10 g of gunpowder tucked into a metal tube. Empires are overthrown and continents reshaped by a little knowledge and by some discovery that seems, when it is made, insignificant. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 14:26:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24MQEgk023367; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:26:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24MQ7kW023313; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:26:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:26:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C52109.21AC2407" Subject: Re: Correa Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:25:55 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF464 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: Correa Thread-Index: AcUhCRZPRgB/1+F7RpeYmCkUwTbXxw== From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Mar 2005 22:25:56.0786 (UTC) FILETIME=[228AA120:01C52109] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C52109.21AC2407 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now we're getting somewhere! =20 Perhaps a huge part of this mystery concerns the critical design of the output. Too small a capacitor and the pulse action will be inhibited because the capacitor will be filled. Too fast or brief a pulse and the battery may reject most of it as heat rather than accept it as a charge. =20 It might be possible to use some sort of audio transformer of high quality to transform the pulses down. I would think the low impedance of a small battery pack would be reflected back into the tube favorably. Perhaps one of the new low voltage ultracaps would work in such a circuit. =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C52109.21AC2407 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
       &nbs= p;         =20 Now we're getting somewhere!
 
       &nbs= p;         =20 Perhaps a huge part of this mystery concerns the critical design of the=20 output.  Too small a capacitor and the pulse action will be=20 inhibited
       &nbs= p;         =20 because the capacitor will be filled.  Too fast or brief a pulse = and the=20 battery may reject most of it as heat rather than accept it as a=20 charge.
 
       &nbs= p;         =20 It might be possible to use some sort of audio transformer of high = quality to=20 transform the pulses down.  I would think the low=20 impedance
       &nbs= p;         =20 of  a small battery pack would be reflected back into the tube=20 favorably.  Perhaps one of the new low voltage ultracaps would=20 work
       &nbs= p;        =20 in such a circuit.
 
       &nbs= p;        =20
------_=_NextPart_001_01C52109.21AC2407-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 14:48:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24Mmbgk030807; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:48:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24MmYJ1030775; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:48:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:48:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304173210.02be0390 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:48:10 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: More military might-have-beens . . . In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304165308.02bf3478 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304165308.02bf3478 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_31462000==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_31462000==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >(The CIA says that 95% of men under 40 in Saudi Arabia approve of Al Qaeda >and consider Bin Laden a national hero, so I am sure they have unlimited >funds at their disposal.) Correction: the government of Saudi Arabia says that, based on public opinion polls. Source: "Imperial Hubris" (Brassey's, Inc., 2004). The point is, not only does Al Qaeda have money, they have a huge reservoir of technical skill. There are probably hundreds of thousands of qualified but unemployed engineers and other university trained people, such as the 9/11 hijackers. It is a myth that modern terrorists are disenfranchised poor people, or that they are technically ignorant. The Japanese Aum sect attracted some of the most talented biochemists and engineers in Japan. They built a state-of-the-art sarin production facility. This was built right out in the open in Japan -- a country where government surveillance is intense, and the authorities have enormous leeway and detailed information on everyone. (In Japan, you have to register all members of your household and all domestic pets with the local police. If you forget to vaccinate your pooch a friendly policeman will come around to remind you. You also have to register all television sets and radios, and pay a tax on them. Students used to be adept at hiding television antennas.) It takes no great stretch of imagination to envision a 5-year secret project involving thousands of highly qualified people in Saudi Arabia (or some other state), in which experts make important advances in cold fusion and then fabricate 50,000 crude small motors for handheld devices. It would be *far* easier than hiding a conventional nuclear weapons program. Grimer, my man! Is that scary enough? - Jed --=====================_31462000==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wrote:

(The CIA says that 95% of men under 40 in Saudi Arabia approve of Al Qaeda and consider Bin Laden a national hero, so I am sure they have unlimited funds at their disposal.)

Correction: the government of Saudi Arabia says that, based on public opinion polls. Source: "Imperial Hubris" (Brassey's, Inc., 2004).

The point is, not only does Al Qaeda have money, they have a huge reservoir of technical skill. There are probably hundreds of thousands of qualified but unemployed engineers and other university trained people, such as the 9/11 hijackers. It is a myth that modern terrorists are disenfranchised poor people, or that they are technically ignorant. The Japanese Aum sect attracted some of the most talented biochemists and engineers in Japan. They built a state-of-the-art sarin production facility. This was built right out in the open in Japan -- a country where government surveillance is intense, and the authorities have enormous leeway and detailed information on everyone. (In Japan, you have to register all members of your household  and all domestic pets with the local police. If you forget to vaccinate your pooch a friendly policeman will come around to remind you. You also have to register all television sets and radios, and pay a tax on them. Students used to be adept at hiding television antennas.) It takes no great stretch of imagination to envision a  5-year secret project involving thousands of highly qualified people in Saudi Arabia (or some other state), in which experts make important advances in cold fusion and then fabricate 50,000 crude small motors for handheld devices. It would be *far* easier than hiding a conventional nuclear weapons program.

Grimer, my man! Is that scary enough?

- Jed
--=====================_31462000==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 15:23:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24NMdgk009657; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:22:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24NMbpG009639; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:22:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:22:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304174843.02bdeaa0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:21:34 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Correa, etc. In-Reply-To: <4228D661.4070405 ix.netcom.com> References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF463 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <006c01c520dc$22aa3080$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> <00a101c520f1$a1d9a650$9c50ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050304153701.02b4d308 pop.mindspring.com> <4228D661.4070405 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_33518593==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_33518593==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Edmund Storms wrote: >>and Miles were able to reproduce it on their own. If the necessary skills >>and knowledge have been as obscure as those required for the pagd, it >>probably would have been lost. > >While I agree with Jed about the basic point he is making, success in >replicating the cold fusion claims is not based on skill, or at least not >the kind of skill Jed is noting. Success has been based on chance >creation of the nuclear active environment. No one, even today, knows >what this environment looks like or how to create it on purpose. Naturally, I agree that this kind of luck also played an important role. From Mike's description such luck cannot happen with the PAGD. Making a PAGD is more like cloning a sheep -- you have to be an expert at every stage. Luck does not enter into it. Still, there is a great deal of skill to doing CF, much of it perhaps unconscious. This skill helped set the stage for success by people like Bockris. They knew how to avoid many dumb mistakes that tripped up non-electrochemists before the "chance creation of the nuclear active environment" could even get underway. >The point is that if the PAGD effect is like cold fusion, it probably can >be initiated several different ways, some of which can be found by the >same kind of trial and error used by the Correas. Unfortunately, it appears that is not the case, and the PAGD effect is more like cloning a sheep -- there are very narrow set of procedures, and they must all be done correctly. The cloning success rate, by the way, still runs from 0.1% to 3%, even today after tens or maybe hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent on cloning research.. (See http://gslc.genetics.utah.edu/units/cloning/cloningrisks/). If cloning had provoked the same visceral opposition from scientists that cold fusion did, there is no chance it would have been replicated. >Replication is most impressive when the same effect can be produced >several different ways, each of which show that the same variables are >having the same effect on the outcome. Cold fusion has passed this >test. The PAGD effect has not. Perhaps that is not the fault of the PAGD effect, but rather a technical limitation. Perhaps there is only one reliable way to do it. If the effect is real and the technology is developed, additional methods are likely to be discovered. I believe there was only one proven method of making transistors in 1952 -- germanium junction devices, I think they were. It took weeks of intense hands-on training to teach that method to experts. Groups of engineers from outside companies who paid the patent fee attended classes at Bell Labs. By the mid-50s there were half a dozen other commercialized methods, some of them quite different from the original one. Perhaps the PAGD demands the same kind of development path the transistor did, with a relatively tight set of technical specifications and a long list of dos and don'ts (which were published in a famous book known as "Mother Bell's Cookbook"). If so, that is most unfortunate, because Correa is the last person on earth who is qualified or likely to carry out the kind of program needed to ensure the success of this technology. His personality utterly precludes it. He has said he has no intention, in any case, because humanity does not deserve his invention -- or his genius. He seems to have put the PAGD aside now, and he is working on other projects that are based on what I would say are very peculiar notions about physics. If the PAGD as difficult to replicate as Mike indicates, we might as well write the whole thing off now. If I were religious, and also inclined to believe claims such as the PAGD, I might wonder why God keeps putting such wonderful discoveries into the hands of such incorrigible people. - Jed --=====================_33518593==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Edmund Storms wrote:

and Miles were able to reproduce it on their own. If the necessary skills and knowledge have been as obscure as those required for the pagd, it probably would have been lost.

While I agree with Jed about the basic point he is making, success in replicating the cold fusion claims is not based on skill, or at least not the kind of skill Jed is noting.  Success has been based on chance creation of the nuclear active environment.  No one, even today, knows what this environment looks like or how to create it on purpose.

Naturally, I agree that this kind of luck also played an important role. >From Mike's description such luck cannot happen with the PAGD. Making a PAGD is more like cloning a sheep -- you have to be an expert at every stage. Luck does not enter into it.

Still, there is a great deal of skill to doing CF, much of it perhaps unconscious. This skill helped set the stage for success by people like Bockris. They knew how to avoid many dumb mistakes that tripped up non-electrochemists before the "chance creation of the nuclear active environment" could even get underway.


The point is that if the PAGD effect is like cold fusion, it probably can be initiated several different ways, some of which can be found by the same kind of trial and error used by the Correas.

Unfortunately, it appears that is not the case, and the PAGD effect is more like cloning a sheep -- there are very narrow set of procedures, and they must all be done correctly. The cloning success rate, by the way, still runs from 0.1% to 3%, even today after tens or maybe hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent on cloning research.. (See http://gslc.genetics.utah.edu/units/cloning/cloningrisks/). If cloning had provoked the same visceral opposition from scientists that cold fusion did, there is no chance it would have been replicated.


Replication is most impressive when the same effect can be produced several different ways, each of which show that the same variables are having the same effect on the outcome.  Cold fusion has passed this test.  The PAGD effect has not.

Perhaps that is not the fault of the PAGD effect, but rather a technical limitation. Perhaps there is only one reliable way to do it. If the effect is real and the technology is developed, additional methods are likely to be discovered. I believe there was only one proven method of making transistors in 1952 -- germanium junction devices, I think they were. It took weeks of intense hands-on training to teach that method to experts. Groups of engineers from outside companies who paid the patent fee attended classes at Bell Labs. By the mid-50s there were half a dozen other commercialized methods, some of them quite different from the original one.

Perhaps the PAGD demands the same kind of development path the transistor did, with a relatively tight set of technical specifications and a long list of dos and don'ts (which were published in a famous book known as "Mother Bell's Cookbook"). If so, that is most unfortunate, because Correa is the last person on earth who is qualified or likely to carry out the kind of program needed to ensure the success of this technology. His personality utterly precludes it. He has said he has no intention, in any case, because humanity does not deserve his invention -- or his genius. He seems to have put the PAGD aside now, and he is working on other projects that are based on what I would say are very peculiar notions about physics. If the PAGD as difficult to replicate as Mike indicates, we might as well write the whole thing off now.

If I were religious, and also inclined to believe claims such as the PAGD, I might wonder why God keeps putting such wonderful discoveries into the hands of such incorrigible people.

- Jed
--=====================_33518593==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 15:23:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24NMrgk009772; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:22:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24NMj4P009705; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:22:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:22:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Mark S Bilk To: "Vortex List" Subject: Re: Correa Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:19:25 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0503041522340C.06465 isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In-Reply-To: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF464 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 On Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 04:25:55PM -0600, Zell, Chris wrote: >Perhaps a huge part of this mystery concerns the critical >design of the output. Too small a capacitor and the pulse >action will be inhibited because the capacitor will be filled. >Too fast or brief a pulse and the battery may reject most of >it as heat rather than accept it as a charge. If this is about a choice between a battery and a capacitor, better results might be obtained by using a capacitor (chosen for low internal series inductance) _and_ a battery, connected in parallel. (The combination should be connected with short, straight wires to whatever is producing the pulses, to reduce inductance). The capacitor will begin absorbing the incoming charge immediately, and by the time its voltage begins to rise the battery will (hopefully) begin taking the rest of the charge, preventing any substantial voltage rise across the parallel combination, and thus across whatever it's connected to (PAGD tube, presumably). While the capacitance can be increased by adding multiple capacitors of the same type to the parallel combination, one may also parallel different _types_ of capacitors -- one (or more) with large capacitance but unavoidable internal series inductance, and one (or more) with smaller capacitance but designed to have much less internal series inductance (these are called "bypass capacitors"). The small, low-inductance bypass capacitor will absorb the very beginning of the incoming charge, while the rest of the initial charge makes its way through the series inductance of the larger capacitor. After that, the remainder of the charge will go into the battery (which may be even slower to respond). Connecting two different capacitors in parallel in this way is frequently done in electronic circuits. For example, a computer plug-in card (e.g., a video card) will likely have a slow electrolytic capacitor and a fast ceramic bypass capacitor connected in parallel between its ground and +5 volt power input. The electrolytic reduces low-frequency AC across the +5 power line to the chips in the card, while the bypass cap will reduce high-frequency AC. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 15:54:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j24NsZgk019604; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:54:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j24NsSie019571; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:54:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:54:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c52115$d64fa1e0$6701a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF464 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: Correa Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:56:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01C520EB.EBACC920" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C520EB.EBACC920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know anything about electrochemistry in batteries, but I = question the ability of a string cells to absorb a fast high energy = pulse without impedance, and that this impedence would cause a voltage = spike. Maybe the spike has a different contour than a cap has and that = makes the difference. I don't know. What I do know is that if you run the tube with only a ballast resistor, = the PAGD events are merely a random display of little sparkles on the = surface of the cathode, and that a series connected diode cap = combination across the the tube to capture a forward pulse will collect = nothing. But, if you put a 3 mfd cap across the tube, the sparkles turn = into energetic eruptions on the cathode surface causing the capture cap = to charge up to 800v in successive pulses. (I accidently pushed a = series combination of 350v electrolytic capture caps to 800v and got = away with it) My tube is a pair of 3/4 inch aluminum plates separated be a 12 inch dia = by 3 in pyrex tube sealed with a 12 inch dia by 3/16 O ring and vac = grease. One plate is drilled for a vac connection. I also have a 9 inch = dia version using an acrylic tube. It works just as well. Works is a = relative term. Lots of neat visual effects: no obvious OU. As you pull a vacuum while the tube is energized, you reach a vacuum = threshold where the tube lights off. Maximum activity is not terribly = far below this threshold. If you pull a much harder vacuum then the = reactions get lethargic. The geometry of my tubes allows me to see a = haze line in the lavender glow of the tube. This line may not be = visible in a Correa style tube. Best performance of my equipment is at = a haze line height of 5/8 to 3/4 inch above the cathode plate. At light = off the haze line is at 1/8 to1/4 inch above the cathode.=20 Jeff ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Zell, Chris=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: Re: Correa Now we're getting somewhere! Perhaps a huge part of this mystery concerns the = critical design of the output. Too small a capacitor and the pulse = action will be inhibited because the capacitor will be filled. Too fast or = brief a pulse and the battery may reject most of it as heat rather than = accept it as a charge. It might be possible to use some sort of audio = transformer of high quality to transform the pulses down. I would think = the low impedance of a small battery pack would be reflected back = into the tube favorably. Perhaps one of the new low voltage ultracaps = would work in such a circuit. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C520EB.EBACC920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't know anything about = electrochemistry in=20 batteries, but I question the ability of a string cells to absorb a fast = high=20 energy pulse without impedance, and that this impedence would cause a = voltage=20 spike.  Maybe the spike has a different contour than a cap has and = that=20 makes the difference.  I don't know.
 
What I do know is that if you run the = tube with=20 only a ballast resistor, the PAGD events are merely a random display of = little=20 sparkles on the surface of the cathode, and that a series connected = diode cap=20 combination across the the tube to capture a forward pulse will collect=20 nothing.  But, if you put a 3 mfd cap across the tube, the sparkles = turn=20 into energetic eruptions on the cathode surface causing the capture = cap to=20 charge up to 800v in successive pulses.  (I accidently pushed a = series=20 combination of 350v electrolytic capture caps to 800v and got away with=20 it)
 
My tube is a pair of 3/4 inch aluminum = plates=20 separated be a 12 inch dia by 3 in pyrex tube sealed with a 12 inch dia = by 3/16=20 O ring and vac grease. One plate is drilled for a vac connection.  = I also=20 have a 9 inch dia version using an acrylic tube.  It works just as=20 well.  Works is a relative term.  Lots of neat visual effects: = no=20 obvious OU.
 
As you pull a vacuum while the tube is = energized,=20 you reach a vacuum threshold where the tube lights off.  Maximum = activity=20 is not terribly far below this threshold.  If you pull a much = harder vacuum=20 then the reactions get lethargic.  The geometry of my tubes allows = me to=20 see a haze line in the lavender glow of the tube.  This line may = not be=20 visible in a Correa style tube.  Best performance of my = equipment is=20 at a haze line height of 5/8 to 3/4 inch above the cathode plate.  = At light=20 off the haze line is at 1/8 to1/4 inch above the = cathode. 
 
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Zell, Chris
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 = 5:25=20 PM
Subject: Re: Correa

       &nbs= p;         =20 Now we're getting somewhere!
 
       &nbs= p;         =20 Perhaps a huge part of this mystery concerns the critical design of = the=20 output.  Too small a capacitor and the pulse action will be=20 inhibited
       &nbs= p;         =20 because the capacitor will be filled.  Too fast or brief a pulse = and the=20 battery may reject most of it as heat rather than accept it as a=20 charge.
 
       &nbs= p;         =20 It might be possible to use some sort of audio transformer of high = quality to=20 transform the pulses down.  I would think the low=20 impedance
       &nbs= p;         =20 of  a small battery pack would be reflected back into the tube=20 favorably.  Perhaps one of the new low voltage ultracaps would=20 work
       &nbs= p;        =20 in such a circuit.
 
       &nbs= p;        =20
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C520EB.EBACC920-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 16:09:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2509Ogk024508; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:09:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2509M3Z024485; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:09:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:09:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220053650930930 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, March 04, 2005 Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:09:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d83331f283a6c2d8c24a7b368e9fdb6dcc3788860f0b40a802350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.89.219 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > [Original Message] > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 3/4/2005 12:23:04 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, March 04, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 4 Mar 05 Washington, DC 1. SCIENCE BUDGET: TAX REVENUES DOWN, WAR COSTS UP, BIG TROUBLE. You don't have to be Alan Greenspan to know what happens when taxes are cut during a costly war. And it's happening. Science, with no champions in this administration, looks to be one of the big losers. NASA, alone among science agencies, would get an increase under the Bush request, but the entire 5%, and more, is destined for the Moon-Mars Initiative, which has no discernable science content. Meanwhile, Hubble will be dropped in the ocean. 2. MOON-MARS INITIATIVE: EXPLORING THE OUTER LIMITS OF POLITICS. So what's really behind "The Vision"? Why is the administration pushing so hard for a science initiative that scientists scorn, and which won't take place on Bush's watch? Ah, but that's the plan. It will be up to the next administration, stuck with a huge deficit, to decide whether to go ahead with a meaningless but staggeringly expensive program to see if humans can do what robots are already doing. As one well-informed NASA watcher put it, "Moon-Mars is a poison pill. It hangs responsibility for ending the humans-in-space program on the next administration." 3. FAITH-BASED GOVERNMENT: TOO IMPORTANT TO LEAVE TO CONGRESS? David Kuo, former deputy director of the White House Office of Faith-Based Initiatives, complained last month that although the conservative religious community had delivered the votes for the Republican landslide, they hadn't seen much faith money. Stung, the White House called a meeting with 300 religious leaders. "It is said that faith can move mountains," the President told the cheering throng, "and I'm here to talk about how to move that mountain." The mountain, it seems, is Congress. Legislation to make it easier for religious charities to obtain government cash was blocked in Bush's first term. Although Kuo complained that the White House wasn't committed to ending the stalemate, Bush bypassed Capitol Hill with three executive orders establishing faith-based offices in 10 federal agencies that passed out $2B in 2004. They pray for more. WN prays for the First Amendment. 4. THE LAW: THOU SHALT SUBJECT EACH CLAIM TO A DOUBLE-BLIND TEST. The day after the President's meeting with religious leaders, the Supreme Court debated whether displays of the Ten Commandments on government property violated the separation of church and state. The monument on the grounds of the Texas Capitol, begins with the words, "I AM the LORD thy God," followed by the first commandment, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." That seems pretty clear, but Justice Kennedy suggested that, "If an atheist walks by he can avert his eyes." Meanwhile, in Estes Park, CO, there will be a recall election to decide whether to unseat a Board member for refusing to say "under God" when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance before meetings. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 16:45:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j250jMgk007293; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:45:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j250jD9T007238; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:45:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:45:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050305004503.006a9df8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 00:45:03 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: More military might-have-beens . . . Resent-Message-ID: <1Fs7MB.A.CxB.ZEQKCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:48 pm 04-03-05 -0500, Jed wrote: >I wrote: > >>(The CIA says that 95% of men under 40 in Saudi Arabia approve of Al Qaeda >>and consider Bin Laden a national hero, so I am sure they have unlimited >>funds at their disposal.) > >Correction: the government of Saudi Arabia says that, based on public >opinion polls. Source: "Imperial Hubris" (Brassey's, Inc., 2004). > >The point is, not only does Al Qaeda have money, they have a huge reservoir >of technical skill. There are probably hundreds of thousands of qualified >but unemployed engineers and other university trained people, such as the >9/11 hijackers. It is a myth that modern terrorists are disenfranchised >poor people, or that they are technically ignorant. The Japanese Aum sect >attracted some of the most talented biochemists and engineers in Japan. >They built a state-of-the-art sarin production facility. This was built >right out in the open in Japan -- a country where government surveillance >is intense, and the authorities have enormous leeway and detailed >information on everyone. (In Japan, you have to register all members of >your household and all domestic pets with the local police. If you forget >to vaccinate your pooch a friendly policeman will come around to remind >you. You also have to register all television sets and radios, and pay a >tax on them. Students used to be adept at hiding television antennas.) It >takes no great stretch of imagination to envision a 5-year secret project >involving thousands of highly qualified people in Saudi Arabia (or some >other state), in which experts make important advances in cold fusion and >then fabricate 50,000 crude small motors for handheld devices. It would be >*far* easier than hiding a conventional nuclear weapons program. > >Grimer, my man! Is that scary enough? ABSOLUTELY! That's fantastic stuff Jed. Not only blood curdling but very interesting with it. If you can write like that and get it syndicated you can forget about the CoFu Bomb game. If I were from the bible belt and I read that in my morning paper under the headline, WAKE UP AMERICA I would be reaching for my M16 with one hand and with the other I'd be writing a letter to my congressman demanding that he did something about the COLD FUSION GAP if he wanted to get re-elected. And if I were from Montana (my son, Greg, once stayed there with a family. He said they were armed to the back teeth) I would send down a detachment of my militia to make sure you had sufficient protection from any Skull and Bones backlash. What you have to remember is, it doesn't really matter a damn what the atoms say. It's all about bits - all about perceptual bits. To quote from the book I was reading when I checked my mail just now. -------------------------------------------------------------- And they were not just cold. Hedgies struck me as incredibly detached as well. Apart from the real world. On another planet, almost. Actually, a lot of people on Wall Street are this way. They reside in a different layer from the rest of the world. I suppose it is how the financial system is set up; they can buy and sell companies all day without really caring what they actually do. -------------------------------------------------------------- Of course they can. They aren't buying companies qua atoms. The are buying companies qua bits, i.e. perceptions. It is not for nothing that often the most valuable asset of a company is not its physical assets such as buildings, machines, etc., but intangibles, like trade marks, good will, etc. That's what my intellectually challenged directors at Building Research failed to recognise. Their value was the reputation, the honesty, the competence of the work. That was what they should have been selling. Selling, that is until the last honest researcher had drifted away at last, and turned out the lights. That's why when CoCo Cola sold home counties "tap water" without having watched all episodes of *Only Fools and Horses*... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.trotters-independent-traders.co.uk/episodes/mother_natures_son.htm "Del Boy's latest scheme is to bottle tap water and sell it as 'Peckham Spring' water. It's a great success thanks to Rodney's mate Myles." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ....it was a complete public relations disaster. The US firm very sensibly strangled the whole thing at birth before it impacted on their other lucrative sales of sugar water. There's of lot of our countrymen who moan about the loss of manufacturing industry. With your extensive historical knowledge I'm sure you recognise that exactly the same moaning went on in England in relation to agriculture as the industrial revolution took hold. The west's future is in 'bits' and the sooner modern Luddites wake up to that reality the better. And if you're not a lawyer, and your skill is in atoms, not bits - TOUGH! ;-) Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 4 22:48:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j256lsgk007968; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:47:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j256lq2t007951; Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:47:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:47:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: The work of Chris Arnold Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:49:26 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <3rr7ej$o8lieu mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Give the man a prize! The smart ones figure out that one right away, the not so smart waste many precious years of their lives arguing with skeptics with nothing to gain. A good businessman lets his product brag for him, not the other way around. -john -----Original Message----- From: orionworks charter.net [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 11:42 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: orionworks charter.net Subject: The work of Chris Arnold Of particular interest to Vorts: In the past Chris hinted that his "pulsed plasma technology" indicated the possibility of OU at work. However, such OU claims seem to have been removed. Perhaps Chris is focusing on the commercialization of his Bucky Diamond process which may turn out to be significantly cheaper than current means. It would make sense to me that a present he might not care to draw additional controversy. Such claims might turn out to be more of a distraction than a benefit to his current business plans. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 03:44:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j25BiVgk015720; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 03:44:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j25BiS1f015700; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 03:44:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 03:44:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=XPOJqarKSxsjh5YS7XtXFy9IJCSFAh5ZOYV2sKrKs2uuPKyO/7xSvg8+DrlVOTaW; Message-ID: <410-22005365104343270 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold Heat Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 04:43:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405c162d2898d8485fd79c5463f40989fe350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.17 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Recycled Energy : The Papp engine: Issue #51 of Infinite-Energy September/October 2003 Gene Mallove was Slain May 14, 2004. http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/papp.html As far-fetched as this sounds, there might be something to it. My recent delving into Zero Point Energy (ZPE) and the Casimir Effect where space itself (from which our Universe was born) can at low, or temperatures approaching absolute zero, alter the mass/energy of atoms/molecules such that when they are suddenly brought to higher temperatures they "dump" energy far in excess of that required to heat or cool them as their mass/energy re-adjusts. The so-called "3 K Radiation" from throughout space indicates that there could be planet-sized objects WIMPS etc., at near absolute zero out there. Also the1908 Tunguska event might have been a large "snowball" from space (or Hell?) that exploded in that area as it released this stored-up energy as it came through the atmosphere. Frederick http://www.webelements.com/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2524493 The Inversion Temperature: " the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands takes place below that temperature, above that temperature it heats under expansion." Gas Inversion Temp Deg K Space 0-3 Helium 51 Hydrogen 205 Neon 242 Nitrogen 621 Argon 723 Krypton 727 Oxygen 893 Xenon 1427 Zero Deg C = 272 Deg K Zero Deg F = 255 Deg K ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Recycled Energy :
 
The Papp engine:
 
Issue #51 of Infinite-Energy September/October 2003         Gene Mallove was Slain May 14, 2004.
 
 
As far-fetched as this sounds, there might be something to it.
My recent delving into Zero Point Energy (ZPE) and the Casimir Effect
where space itself (from which our Universe was born) can at low, or temperatures
approaching absolute zero, alter the mass/energy of atoms/molecules such that
when they are suddenly brought to higher temperatures they "dump" energy
far in excess of that required to heat or cool them as their mass/energy re-adjusts.
 
The so-called "3 K Radiation" from throughout space indicates that there
could be planet-sized objects WIMPS etc., at near absolute zero out there.
Also the1908 Tunguska event might have been a large "snowball" from space (or Hell?) that exploded
in that area as it released this stored-up energy as it came through the atmosphere.
 
Frederick
 
 
 
The Inversion Temperature:
" the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands takes place below that temperature, above that temperature it heats under expansion."
Gas                 Inversion Temp Deg K
Space                     0-3
Helium                    51
Hydrogen              205
Neon                      242
Nitrogen                621
Argon                     723
Krypton                  727
Oxygen                  893
Xenon                  1427
 
Zero Deg C  =     272 Deg K
Zero Deg F  =     255 Deg K
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 06:26:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j25EPwgk009363; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 06:25:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j25EPsPW009321; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 06:25:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 06:25:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <189b01c5218f$34456450$346f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF464 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: Correa Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:06:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_186C_01C52162.A8A9F770" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <9YjS2B.A.hRC.yFcKCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_186C_01C52162.A8A9F770 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris wrote:=20 Now we're getting somewhere! No, we are not. You are repeating the same mistake that Jeff made, = changing what the Correas did before you ever see the effect. The PAGD = discharge is a wideband event. Transformers are ***not*** simple devices = in a wideband case, they have stray inductance which will present a = complex impedance to the discharge. You are ignoring what I said about = the discharge continuing with no rise in the cell voltage. You say you = have studied the Correa ptents, but you have not understood the = implications of what is in them. Transformers also block DC.=20 I don't want to be harsh here, but you have to do your homework **very = thoroughly**.=20 Mike Carrell Perhaps a huge part of this mystery concerns the = critical design of the output. Too small a capacitor and the pulse = action will be inhibited because the capacitor will be filled. Too fast or = brief a pulse and the battery may reject most of it as heat rather than = accept it as a charge. It might be possible to use some sort of audio = transformer of high quality to transform the pulses down. I would think = the low impedance of a small battery pack would be reflected back = into the tube favorably. Perhaps one of the new low voltage ultracaps = would work in such a circuit. ------=_NextPart_000_186C_01C52162.A8A9F770 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris wrote:

       &nbs= p;         =20 Now we're getting somewhere!
 
No,=20 we are not. You are repeating the same mistake that Jeff made, = changing what=20 the Correas did before you ever see the effect. The PAGD discharge is = a=20 wideband event. Transformers are ***not*** simple devices in a = wideband case,=20 they have stray inductance which will present a complex impedance to = the=20 discharge. You are ignoring what I said about the discharge continuing = with no=20 rise in the cell voltage. You say you have studied the Correa ptents, = but you=20 have not understood the implications of what is in them. Transformers = also=20 block DC.
 
I=20 don't want to be harsh here, but you have to do your homework **very=20 thoroughly**.
 
Mike=20 Carrell
 
       &nbs= p;         =20 Perhaps a huge part of this mystery concerns the critical design of = the=20 output.  Too small a capacitor and the pulse action will be=20 inhibited
       &nbs= p;         =20 because the capacitor will be filled.  Too fast or brief a pulse = and the=20 battery may reject most of it as heat rather than accept it as a=20 charge.
 
       &nbs= p;         =20 It might be possible to use some sort of audio transformer of high = quality to=20 transform the pulses down.  I would think the low=20 impedance
       &nbs= p;         =20 of  a small battery pack would be reflected back into the tube=20 favorably.  Perhaps one of the new low voltage ultracaps would=20 work
       &nbs= p;        =20 in such a circuit.
 
       &nbs= p;        =20
------=_NextPart_000_186C_01C52162.A8A9F770-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 06:26:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j25EQ1gk009382; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 06:26:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j25EPu9E009343; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 06:25:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 06:25:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <189c01c5218f$349b4c80$346f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF464 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> <001f01c52115$d64fa1e0$6701a8c0@msns.flt.ptd.net> Subject: Re: Correa Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:24:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_1889_01C52165.1432BC50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58305 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_1889_01C52165.1432BC50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeff wrote, my comments in blue. Mike Carrell I don't know anything about electrochemistry in batteries, but I = question the ability of a string cells to absorb a fast high energy = pulse without impedance, and that this impedence would cause a voltage = spike. Maybe the spike has a different contour than a cap has and that = makes the difference. I don't know. Batteries take charge by chemical action, which can't happed as fast = as the PAGD pulse; Jeff is right. This is why the Correa circuit has a = large electrolytic capacitor across the batteries, to take the peak = energy and buffer it so the battery chemistry can act.=20 What I do know is that if you run the tube with only a ballast = resistor, the PAGD events are merely a random display of little sparkles = on the surface of the cathode, and that a series connected diode cap = combination across the the tube to capture a forward pulse will collect = nothing. But, if you put a 3 mfd cap across the tube, the sparkles turn = into energetic eruptions on the cathode surface causing the capture cap = to charge up to 800v in successive pulses. (I accidently pushed a = series combination of 350v electrolytic capture caps to 800v and got = away with it) The faint blue glow is one of the precursors to the PAGD discharge. = When you put a 3 mfd capacitor across the cell you have made an ordinary = strobe flasher and the energy comes from charging the capacitor.=20 My tube is a pair of 3/4 inch aluminum plates separated be a 12 inch = dia by 3 in pyrex tube sealed with a 12 inch dia by 3/16 O ring and vac = grease. One plate is drilled for a vac connection. I also have a 9 inch = dia version using an acrylic tube. It works just as well. Works is a = relative term. Lots of neat visual effects: no obvious OU. The Correa patents are quite specific about the aluminum alloys used, = and quite specific about the need for a low work function, which will = also depend on the condition of the surfaces with respect to = contamination. If you don't "get" this, you are missing essential = matters.=20 As you pull a vacuum while the tube is energized, you reach a vacuum = threshold where the tube lights off. Maximum activity is not terribly = far below this threshold. If you pull a much harder vacuum then the = reactions get lethargic. The geometry of my tubes allows me to see a = haze line in the lavender glow of the tube. This line may not be = visible in a Correa style tube. Best performance of my equipment is at = a haze line height of 5/8 to 3/4 inch above the cathode plate. At light = off the haze line is at 1/8 to1/4 inch above the cathode.=20 Jeff ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Zell, Chris=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: Re: Correa Now we're getting somewhere! Perhaps a huge part of this mystery concerns the = critical design of the output. Too small a capacitor and the pulse = action will be inhibited because the capacitor will be filled. Too fast or = brief a pulse and the battery may reject most of it as heat rather than = accept it as a charge. It might be possible to use some sort of audio = transformer of high quality to transform the pulses down. I would think = the low impedance of a small battery pack would be reflected back = into the tube favorably. Perhaps one of the new low voltage ultracaps = would work in such a circuit. ------=_NextPart_000_1889_01C52165.1432BC50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jeff wrote, my comments = in blue. Mike=20 Carrell
I don't = know anything=20 about electrochemistry in batteries, but I question the ability of a = string=20 cells to absorb a fast high energy pulse without impedance, and that = this=20 impedence would cause a voltage spike.  Maybe the spike has a = different=20 contour than a cap has and that makes the difference.  I don't=20 know.
 
Batteries take charge=20 by chemical action, which can't happed as fast as the PAGD pulse; Jeff = is=20 right. This is why the Correa circuit has a large electrolytic = capacitor=20 across the batteries, to take the peak energy and buffer it so the = battery=20 chemistry can act.
 
What I do know is that if you run the = tube with=20 only a ballast resistor, the PAGD events are merely a random display = of little=20 sparkles on the surface of the cathode, and that a series connected = diode cap=20 combination across the the tube to capture a forward pulse will = collect=20 nothing.  But, if you put a 3 mfd cap across the tube, the = sparkles turn=20 into energetic eruptions on the cathode surface causing the capture=20 cap to charge up to 800v in successive pulses.  (I = accidently pushed=20 a series combination of 350v electrolytic capture caps to 800v and got = away=20 with it)
 
The faint blue glow = is one of the=20 precursors to the PAGD discharge. When you put a 3 mfd capacitor = across the=20 cell you have made an ordinary strobe flasher and the energy comes = from=20 charging the capacitor.
 
My tube is a pair of 3/4 inch = aluminum plates=20 separated be a 12 inch dia by 3 in pyrex tube sealed with a 12 inch = dia by=20 3/16 O ring and vac grease. One plate is drilled for a vac = connection.  I=20 also have a 9 inch dia version using an acrylic tube.  It works = just as=20 well.  Works is a relative term.  Lots of neat visual = effects: no=20 obvious OU.
 
The Correa patents = are quite=20 specific about the aluminum alloys used, and quite specific about the = need for=20 a low work function, which will also depend on the condition of the = surfaces=20 with respect to contamination. If you don't "get" this, you are = missing=20 essential matters.
 
As you pull a vacuum while the tube = is energized,=20 you reach a vacuum threshold where the tube lights off.  Maximum = activity=20 is not terribly far below this threshold.  If you pull a much = harder=20 vacuum then the reactions get lethargic.  The geometry of my = tubes allows=20 me to see a haze line in the lavender glow of the tube.  This = line may=20 not be visible in a Correa style tube.  Best performance of my=20 equipment is at a haze line height of 5/8 to 3/4 inch above the = cathode=20 plate.  At light off the haze line is at 1/8 to1/4 inch above the = cathode. 
 
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Zell, Chris
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 = 5:25=20 PM
Subject: Re: Correa

       &nbs= p;         =20 Now we're getting somewhere!
 
       &nbs= p;         =20 Perhaps a huge part of this mystery concerns the critical design of = the=20 output.  Too small a capacitor and the pulse action will be=20 inhibited
       &nbs= p;         =20 because the capacitor will be filled.  Too fast or brief a = pulse and=20 the battery may reject most of it as heat rather than accept it as a = charge.
 
       &nbs= p;         =20 It might be possible to use some sort of audio transformer of high = quality=20 to transform the pulses down.  I would think the low=20 impedance
       &nbs= p;         =20 of  a small battery pack would be reflected back into the tube=20 favorably.  Perhaps one of the new low voltage ultracaps would=20 work
       &nbs= p;        =20 in such a circuit.
 
       &nbs= p;        =20
------=_NextPart_000_1889_01C52165.1432BC50-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 07:11:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j25FAvgk029486; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 07:10:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j25FAnBo029432; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 07:10:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 07:10:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002401c52195$61eea280$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: , References: <410-22005365104343270 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Cold Heat Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 07:09:51 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58306 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Excellent Fred, Couldn't have said it better myself ;-) To confirm this thinking as accurate, I put in a call to Central Services last night. Unfortunately, neither Harry nor Dr. G were in at the moment (they have never been "in") but a call-back was promised by the switchboard operator "Ernestine," ... who sounded vaguely familiar and so oversexed that I had to ask for her number. She said, "don't worry, honey, any number will do, kind of like those theories you and Fred are tossing around." Damn... I was thinking, just what I need - another sneaky broad listening-in... and a mind-reader to boot, I'll never call her back. In the mean time, and back to being serious, or was that Sirius, Toto... arf... ...there is already some really well-developed ZPE/Dirac theory behind this idea of cryogenic mass-gain. Yesterday, I asked the real Wizard, the person who I consider above all others in doctoral level physics to be the expert on ZPE, Dirac's sea, the epo field, and related subjects, that being Donald Hotson, about this possibility. Unlike Puthoff, Sarfatti, Haisch, Rueda, etc Don can bring his thinking, and Dirac's mathematics, down to earth in understandable English. Actually Puthoff 'can' do this as well, but seldom does. Donald's writing style is so clear and logical, that one often scarcely realizes how deep into a precise understanding of complex math that he can take you. His Dirac articles are published in 'Infinite Energy' issues 43 and 44, available at : www.infinite-energy.com www.openseti.org. This broadening of Dirac by Hotson is the only causal, *direct-contact model* of the EM field with ZPE which is out there, at least in accessible non-mathematical form. I hope that DH will consider the possibility of Robert Forward's ideas about cryogenic mass-pumping in light of the epo field and get back to me with some details to share. Recently, he sent the most brilliant post that has ever appeared on HSG, and got not a single response. Not surprising on that forum, where everybody has such a specialized agenda, most of that agenda being to share some of their negativism about Mills' theory. Dr. Don has the ability to overwhelm with logic skeptics PhDs like Zimmerman, who are always looking for the "chink in the armor" but DH is more than their intellectual equal when it comes to his specialty. I will quote one paragraph from Donald Hotson's recent HSG post, which is showing up on other free-energy forums, and will ask his permission to include the whole post and other documentation from his IE article, in a later later vortex posting: "My proposed solution requires but a single, large assumption: that the Dirac equation means what it says, not what QED has misinterpreted it to say. Dirac's equation has four roots: it calls for electrons and positrons of positive energy, and electrons and positrons (or at least + and - charges) of negative energy. Adopting a kinetic definition of energy gives an unequivocal answer to the question 'what is negative energy?' In this definition, almost mandated by the Lorentz relationships, energy is the motion of charges; mass is a harmonic (standing wave) motion of charges." As an executive summary of how this could possibly fit in to Robert Forward's thinking about mass-gain at low temperature, one must realize that the epo field itself IS both real and close-by, and is itself a coherent BEC, and sits at a few degrees K in a hidden lattice all around us in another close dimension. When any normal matter gets close to this interface between our reality and Dirac's epo dominated sea, either by temperature or frequency resonance, then over time, that material will experience mass gain to the extent that there is "room" in that element in QM terms. This is why certain elements, like tin or antimony, or certain molecules like water, might work far better than others as they express an allotropic or polymorphic "gap" at low temperature, such that there is room for ZPE pumping. This is probably the mechaism behind superconductivity as well where the mass gain is to the Cooper pair adn seves as binding energy for the paring. More later, Jones > Recycled Energy : > The Papp engine: > Issue #51 of Infinite-Energy September/October 2003 Gene Mallove was Slain May 14, 2004. > http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/papp.html > > As far-fetched as this sounds, there might be something to it. > My recent delving into Zero Point Energy (ZPE) and the Casimir Effect > where space itself (from which our Universe was born) can at low, or temperatures > approaching absolute zero, alter the mass/energy of atoms/molecules such that > when they are suddenly brought to higher temperatures they "dump" energy > far in excess of that required to heat or cool them as their mass/energy re-adjusts. > > The so-called "3 K Radiation" from throughout space indicates that there > could be planet-sized objects WIMPS etc., at near absolute zero out there. > Also the1908 Tunguska event might have been a large "snowball" from space (or Hell?) that exploded > in that area as it released this stored-up energy as it came through the atmosphere. > > Frederick > > http://www.webelements.com/ > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2524493 > > The Inversion Temperature: > " the 'normal' effect of cooling when a gas expands takes place below that temperature, above that temperature it heats under expansion." > Gas Inversion Temp Deg K > Space 0-3 > Helium 51 > Hydrogen 205 > Neon 242 > Nitrogen 621 > Argon 723 > Krypton 727 > Oxygen 893 > Xenon 1427 > > Zero Deg C = 272 Deg K > Zero Deg F = 255 Deg K From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 07:37:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j25Fafgk007328; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 07:36:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j25FaYGP007280; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 07:36:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 07:36:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Correa Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:38:10 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0076_01C52167.0B2FD780" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <189c01c5218f$349b4c80$346f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58307 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C52167.0B2FD780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those of us that read email in plain text to avoid embedded viruses please refrain from formatted replies... it is impossible to follow. Also, formatting gets stripped out in the archived messages so the historical context of your thread is lost too. Just a suggestion. -john -----Original Message----- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:mikec snip.net] Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 8:24 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Correa Jeff wrote, my comments in blue. Mike Carrell I don't know anything about electrochemistry in batteries, but I question the ability of a string cells to absorb a fast high energy pulse without impedance, and that this impedence would cause a voltage spike. Maybe the spike has a different contour than a cap has and that makes the difference. I don't know. Batteries take charge by chemical action, which can't happed as fast as the PAGD pulse; Jeff is right. This is why the Correa circuit has a large electrolytic capacitor across the batteries, to take the peak energy and buffer it so the battery chemistry can act. What I do know is that if you run the tube with only a ballast resistor, the PAGD events are merely a random display of little sparkles on the surface of the cathode, and that a series connected diode cap combination across the the tube to capture a forward pulse will collect nothing. But, if you put a 3 mfd cap across the tube, the sparkles turn into energetic eruptions on the cathode surface causing the capture cap to charge up to 800v in successive pulses. (I accidently pushed a series combination of 350v electrolytic capture caps to 800v and got away with it) The faint blue glow is one of the precursors to the PAGD discharge. When you put a 3 mfd capacitor across the cell you have made an ordinary strobe flasher and the energy comes from charging the capacitor. My tube is a pair of 3/4 inch aluminum plates separated be a 12 inch dia by 3 in pyrex tube sealed with a 12 inch dia by 3/16 O ring and vac grease. One plate is drilled for a vac connection. I also have a 9 inch dia version using an acrylic tube. It works just as well. Works is a relative term. Lots of neat visual effects: no obvious OU. The Correa patents are quite specific about the aluminum alloys used, and quite specific about the need for a low work function, which will also depend on the condition of the surfaces with respect to contamination. If you don't "get" this, you are missing essential matters. As you pull a vacuum while the tube is energized, you reach a vacuum threshold where the tube lights off. Maximum activity is not terribly far below this threshold. If you pull a much harder vacuum then the reactions get lethargic. The geometry of my tubes allows me to see a haze line in the lavender glow of the tube. This line may not be visible in a Correa style tube. Best performance of my equipment is at a haze line height of 5/8 to 3/4 inch above the cathode plate. At light off the haze line is at 1/8 to1/4 inch above the cathode. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: Zell, Chris To: vortex-l eskimo.com Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: Re: Correa Now we're getting somewhere! Perhaps a huge part of this mystery concerns the critical design of the output. Too small a capacitor and the pulse action will be inhibited because the capacitor will be filled. Too fast or brief a pulse and the battery may reject most of it as heat rather than accept it as a charge. It might be possible to use some sort of audio transformer of high quality to transform the pulses down. I would think the low impedance of a small battery pack would be reflected back into the tube favorably. Perhaps one of the new low voltage ultracaps would work in such a circuit. ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C52167.0B2FD780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For=20 those of us that read email in plain text to avoid embedded viruses = please=20 refrain from formatted replies... it is impossible to follow.  = Also,=20 formatting gets stripped out in the archived messages so the=20 historical context of your thread is lost too.
 
Just a=20 suggestion.  -john
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Carrell=20 [mailto:mikec snip.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 8:24=20 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:=20 Correa

Jeff wrote, my comments = in blue. Mike=20 Carrell
I don't = know anything=20 about electrochemistry in batteries, but I question the ability of a = string=20 cells to absorb a fast high energy pulse without impedance, and that = this=20 impedence would cause a voltage spike.  Maybe the spike has a = different=20 contour than a cap has and that makes the difference.  I don't=20 know.
 
Batteries take charge=20 by chemical action, which can't happed as fast as the PAGD pulse; Jeff = is=20 right. This is why the Correa circuit has a large electrolytic = capacitor=20 across the batteries, to take the peak energy and buffer it so the = battery=20 chemistry can act.
 
What I do know is that if you run the = tube with=20 only a ballast resistor, the PAGD events are merely a random display = of little=20 sparkles on the surface of the cathode, and that a series connected = diode cap=20 combination across the the tube to capture a forward pulse will = collect=20 nothing.  But, if you put a 3 mfd cap across the tube, the = sparkles turn=20 into energetic eruptions on the cathode surface causing the capture=20 cap to charge up to 800v in successive pulses.  (I = accidently pushed=20 a series combination of 350v electrolytic capture caps to 800v and got = away=20 with it)
 
The faint blue glow = is one of the=20 precursors to the PAGD discharge. When you put a 3 mfd capacitor = across the=20 cell you have made an ordinary strobe flasher and the energy comes = from=20 charging the capacitor.
 
My tube is a pair of 3/4 inch = aluminum plates=20 separated be a 12 inch dia by 3 in pyrex tube sealed with a 12 inch = dia by=20 3/16 O ring and vac grease. One plate is drilled for a vac = connection.  I=20 also have a 9 inch dia version using an acrylic tube.  It works = just as=20 well.  Works is a relative term.  Lots of neat visual = effects: no=20 obvious OU.
 
The Correa patents = are quite=20 specific about the aluminum alloys used, and quite specific about the = need for=20 a low work function, which will also depend on the condition of the = surfaces=20 with respect to contamination. If you don't "get" this, you are = missing=20 essential matters.
 
As you pull a vacuum while the tube = is energized,=20 you reach a vacuum threshold where the tube lights off.  Maximum = activity=20 is not terribly far below this threshold.  If you pull a much = harder=20 vacuum then the reactions get lethargic.  The geometry of my = tubes allows=20 me to see a haze line in the lavender glow of the tube.  This = line may=20 not be visible in a Correa style tube.  Best performance of my=20 equipment is at a haze line height of 5/8 to 3/4 inch above the = cathode=20 plate.  At light off the haze line is at 1/8 to1/4 inch above the = cathode. 
 
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Zell, Chris
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 = 5:25=20 PM
Subject: Re: Correa

       &nbs= p;         =20 Now we're getting somewhere!
 
       &nbs= p;         =20 Perhaps a huge part of this mystery concerns the critical design of = the=20 output.  Too small a capacitor and the pulse action will be=20 inhibited
       &nbs= p;         =20 because the capacitor will be filled.  Too fast or brief a = pulse and=20 the battery may reject most of it as heat rather than accept it as a = charge.
 
       &nbs= p;         =20 It might be possible to use some sort of audio transformer of high = quality=20 to transform the pulses down.  I would think the low=20 impedance
       &nbs= p;         =20 of  a small battery pack would be reflected back into the tube=20 favorably.  Perhaps one of the new low voltage ultracaps would=20 work
       &nbs= p;        =20 in such a circuit.
 
       &nbs= p;        =20
------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C52167.0B2FD780-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 09:03:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j25H2mgk012243; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:02:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j25H2ai3012167; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:02:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:02:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004401c521a5$8c6cfb00$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: Subject: attachments Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:05:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0041_01C5217B.A1A89080" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C5217B.A1A89080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can I get a scanned diagram to go thru Vortex-l as an attachment. As I = recall photos won't go. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C5217B.A1A89080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can I get a scanned diagram to go thru = Vortex-l as=20 an attachment.  As I recall photos won't go.
 
Jeff
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C5217B.A1A89080-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 10:11:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j25IASgk006138; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:10:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j25IAAZw006044; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:10:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:10:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <18e501c521ae$86403c70$346f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Transistors, replication, and PAGD Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:47:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_18D9_01C52181.7715C3A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58309 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_18D9_01C52181.7715C3A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed favors us with excellent snippets of the history of technology to = illustrate contemporary situations. In that spirit, some comments.=20 Transistors have their roots in very early radio detectors, the 'cats = whisker' and a lump of lead oxide, or galena ore. The 'cats whisker' was = a sharpened wire on a pivoting mount, enabling the user to fish around = on the surface of the galena crystal to find a 'hot spot' that was a = useful rectifier.=20 Some 20 years later, the early solid state physics gave insight into = what was going on. With the early development of radar, a pressing need = was the receive/transmit switch. The same antenna was used for = transmitting a multi-kilowatt burst and receiving the faint reflections = from aircraft. An instant switch was needed to protect the teceiver from = the transmitter burst. It was found in a point contact germanium diode, = a refined version of the earler 'cats whisker' detector. Wartime = necessity paid for methods of refining ot get pure germanium, and mass = production of mechanically stable diodes. It also paid for studies in = solid state physics to understand the operation of the diode.=20 Bell Lab's search for an electronic switch started with that diode and = in essence added another sharpenend wire close to the first one, and = found that current injected by that second wire could control current in = the other, with amplification. It was analogus to the well know triode = vacuum tube, but with important differences that had to be understood to = be controlled. Mass production was essential, which depended on = understanding the transistor effect well enough to know what was truly = essential and what was irrelevant. I won't recap the many clever ideas = that were tried to stabilize the transistor characteristics and extend = life. It was many years later that the concept of the planar transistor slowly = emerged in two people and converged in integrated circuits which are = made by a sophisticated printing process. It also took time to mature = the use of silicon instead of germanium as a substrate. Germanium = transistors are still made for specific applications, and used by = circuit designers who understand how to handle gremanium's = characteristics.=20 The road from the point contact transistor to integrated circuits cost = untold billions and tens of thousands of man hours of work in diverse = technologies.=20 Jed has given us useful illustrations fromthe history of aviation. I = recall that even after the Wright brother's flight, even after the = patents were issued, even after their successful demonstration in = Washington, people were still building failing airplanes after 'their = own ideas'. People who followed the Wright brothers patents built = airplanes that flew. There were rapid refinements in the control system = used, but these were based on the essentials revealed in the Wright = brother's work.=20 In the current discussion about PAGD, Jeff cites aerospace experience. I = could suggest that his deviations from the Correa's patents are = equivalent to deciding that it is too much trouble to make those curved = wing and propellor surfaces, that flat wings and paddle-like propellors = are good enough, following common sense. This ignores the extensive wind = tunnel tests that the Wrights made of different wing and propellor = shapes, long before there was any computer simulation of the airflow = over these complex surfaces.=20 In the current LENR scene, it could be said that in those few episodes = of sudden extreme heat release, of 'heat after death', something "right" = was done and in everything else people are unwittingly and sincerely = repeating mistakes. After all, if those "right" events were repeated = every day in labs around the world, we would not be fretting about the = DoE reports or what Scientific American has to say.=20 It may not be true that the specific construction described in the = Correa patents is of the essence, or that disclosure overcomes barriers = to commercial uitlization, but nobody can say that their work is = mysterious or obscure until they with competence have duplicated what is = in the patents. And I do mean "duplicated", not "imitated". After long = contemplation of the phenomenon, there are aspects which seem strange = indeed. Why not use wall-powered supplies to provide the setup = conditions instead of batteries? Years ago Paulo said such supplies were = destroyed when the PAGD pulse let go. Why? I don't know. Why not make = LENR cells with cathodes cut from soup cans? It's cheaper.=20 The same can be said of the Mills work. There is one paper in the = Journal of Applied Physics which purportedly duplicated a Mills = experiment, without significant results. One significant parameter was = different, which meant that the paper reported on an expeiment which = Mills had already made with null results, not on his successful = experiment. Others have found the phenomena Mills reports with apparatus = that is different is some respects, but with an understanding of what is = *essential*.=20 And so it goes.=20 Mike Carrell ------=_NextPart_000_18D9_01C52181.7715C3A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jed favors us with excellent snippets = of the=20 history of technology to illustrate contemporary situations. In that = spirit,=20 some comments.
 
Transistors have their roots in very = early radio=20 detectors, the 'cats whisker' and a lump of lead oxide, or galena ore. = The 'cats=20 whisker' was a sharpened wire on a pivoting mount, enabling the user to = fish=20 around on the surface of the galena crystal to find a 'hot spot' that = was a=20 useful rectifier.
 
Some 20 years later, the early solid = state physics=20 gave insight into what was going on. With the early development of = radar, a=20 pressing need was the receive/transmit switch. The same antenna was used = for=20 transmitting a multi-kilowatt burst and receiving the faint reflections = from=20 aircraft. An instant switch was needed to protect the teceiver from the=20 transmitter burst. It was found in a point contact germanium diode, a = refined=20 version of the earler 'cats whisker' detector. Wartime necessity paid = for=20 methods of refining ot get pure germanium, and mass production of = mechanically=20 stable diodes. It also paid for studies in solid state physics to = understand the=20 operation of the diode.
 
Bell Lab's search for an electronic = switch started=20 with that diode and in essence added another sharpenend wire close to = the first=20 one, and found that current injected by that second wire could control = current=20 in the other, with amplification. It was analogus to the well know = triode vacuum=20 tube, but with important differences that had to be understood to be = controlled.=20 Mass production was essential, which depended on understanding the = transistor=20 effect well enough to know what was truly essential and what was = irrelevant. I=20 won't recap the many clever ideas that were tried to stabilize the = transistor=20 characteristics and extend life.
 
It was many years later that the = concept of the=20 planar transistor slowly emerged in two people and converged in = integrated=20 circuits which are made by a sophisticated printing process. It also = took time=20 to mature the use of silicon instead of germanium as a substrate. = Germanium=20 transistors are still made for specific applications, and used by = circuit=20 designers who understand how to handle gremanium's characteristics.=20
 
The road from the point contact = transistor to=20 integrated circuits cost untold billions and tens of thousands of man = hours of=20 work in diverse technologies.
 
Jed has given us useful = illustrations  fromthe=20 history of aviation. I recall that even after the Wright brother's = flight,=20 even after the patents were issued, even after their successful = demonstration in=20 Washington, people were still building failing airplanes after 'their = own=20 ideas'. People who followed the Wright brothers patents built airplanes = that=20 flew. There were rapid refinements in the control system used, but these = were=20 based on the essentials revealed in the Wright brother's work. =
 
In the current discussion about PAGD, = Jeff cites=20 aerospace experience. I could suggest that his deviations from the = Correa's=20 patents are equivalent to deciding that it is too much trouble to make = those=20 curved wing and propellor surfaces, that flat wings and paddle-like = propellors=20 are good enough, following common sense. This ignores the extensive wind = tunnel=20 tests that the Wrights made of different wing and propellor shapes, long = before=20 there was any computer simulation of the airflow over these complex = surfaces.=20
 
In the current LENR scene, it could be = said that in=20 those few episodes of sudden extreme heat release, of 'heat after = death',=20 something "right" was done and in everything else people are unwittingly = and=20 sincerely repeating mistakes. After all, if those "right" events were = repeated=20 every day in labs around the world, we would not be fretting about the = DoE=20 reports or what Scientific American has to say.
 
It may not be true that the specific = construction=20 described in the Correa patents is of the essence, or that disclosure = overcomes=20 barriers to commercial uitlization, but nobody can say that their work = is=20 mysterious or obscure until they with competence have duplicated what is = in the=20 patents. And I do mean "duplicated", not "imitated". After long = contemplation of=20 the phenomenon, there are aspects which seem strange indeed. Why not use = wall-powered supplies to provide the setup conditions instead of = batteries?=20 Years ago Paulo said such supplies were destroyed when the PAGD pulse = let go.=20 Why? I don't know. Why not make LENR cells with cathodes cut from soup = cans?=20 It's cheaper.
 
The same can be said of the Mills work. = There is=20 one paper in the Journal of Applied Physics which purportedly duplicated = a Mills=20 experiment, without significant results. One significant parameter was=20 different, which meant that the paper reported on an expeiment which = Mills had=20 already made with null results, not on his successful experiment. Others = have=20 found the phenomena Mills reports with apparatus that is different is = some=20 respects, but with an understanding of what is=20 *essential*. 
 
And so it goes.
 
Mike Carrell
------=_NextPart_000_18D9_01C52181.7715C3A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 10:11:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j25IASgk006144; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:10:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j25IACtk006060; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:10:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:10:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <18e601c521ae$8693b3a0$346f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304165308.02bf3478 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Jed's crows and grey goo Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 13:09:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed has painted an interesting and scary picture of what might be done with microelectronics and CF power packs. Others have thought about the threat of self-replicating nanobots taking over everything as 'grey goo'. There is earnest and real research into robot insects. As the aerodynamics of flapping wings, slow flight, and light weight are studied, it is realized that it is a whole different world than fixed wing aircraft. One needs synthetic muscles, not miniature motors, for one thing. Writing control algorithms and storing them in microelectronics can be done. I will grant that the essence of LENR will be discovered, and miniaturized and controlled to the point that it cna be turned on and off by a switch, and its energy effciently coverted to electric power. It would be very adventurous to say it could not be done. At that point Jed's crows will be but one of many worries amid a myriad of benefits. Directing a flight of crows into a jet engine on takeoff is one thing. A replay of "The Birds" is another level of command and control which is vulnerable to jamming. The measure/countermeasure escalation can put the game out of reach of terrorists. The grey goo scenario is easier to shoot down, for nanobots are born in a semiconductor fab, which is a very specialized einvronment and an escaped nanobot is not about to find in a grain of sand the means of making another. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 11:07:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j25J7Bgk026526; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:07:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j25J6xnO026439; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:07:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:07:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050305190645.0068b194 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 19:06:45 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: attachments Resent-Message-ID: <0LwLpC.A.CdG.SNgKCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:05 pm 05-03-05 -0500, you wrote: > Can I get a scanned diagram to go thru Vortex-l as an > attachment. As I recall photos won't go. A way of getting round the problem that Vortex is a text only group is to either [1] have your own web-site and provide a URL for the relevant page, or [2] register with Yahoo groups (free) and set up your own group (free) This gives you 20Meg file space, 30Meg for photos, etc. If you ever run out of space then you simply open up a second group. Now it's true that to get to see those files Vorts would have to become members of that group. But once they are members they can readily access the files, jpegs, whatever. If people aren't prepared to make a small effort to see a file, over and above merely clicking on a URL, then they are not really interested. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 11:21:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j25JL6gk030921; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:21:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j25JL3fJ030895; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:21:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:21:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Qy5fYSZaZ/rvBwQbWFZy2i4XWQZkgO+WzRNdS0Vo96rh3uNxNTZWRn7BVVM41M4LNUqH9kKR9pz/z5YV3z1Soph2559QGPxUCpae9p9H67vBP/8Qh+tV2CT4ydOD+/6eRp6ODRRZlEbGH4s+xjOcvbhxXO+htUqhvcp3UrhIsAM= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:20:57 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: attachments In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050305190645.0068b194 pop.freeserve.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <2.2.32.20050305190645.0068b194 pop.freeserve.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j25JKwgk030835 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: also, feel free to email me the file off list, ill make a space on my webserver if youd like for vortex email items, and give the url here. On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 19:06:45 +0000, Grimer wrote: > At 12:05 pm 05-03-05 -0500, you wrote: > > > Can I get a scanned diagram to go thru Vortex-l as an > > attachment. As I recall photos won't go. > > A way of getting round the problem that Vortex is a text only group is to either > > [1] have your own web-site and provide a URL for the relevant page, or > [2] register with Yahoo groups (free) and set up your own group (free) > > This gives you 20Meg file space, 30Meg for photos, etc. > If you ever run out of space then you simply open up a second group. > > Now it's true that to get to see those files Vorts would have to become > members of that group. But once they are members they can readily access > the files, jpegs, whatever. > > If people aren't prepared to make a small effort to see a file, over > and above merely clicking on a URL, then they are not really interested. > > Cheers > > Frank Grimer > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 13:15:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j25LFYgk014665; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 13:15:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j25LFV9x014636; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 13:15:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 13:15:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <422A21E2.1000306 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:17:22 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Transistors, replication, and PAGD References: <18e501c521ae$86403c70$346f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <18e501c521ae$86403c70$346f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > > > It may not be true that the specific construction described in the > Correa patents is of the essence, or that disclosure overcomes barriers > to commercial uitlization, but nobody can say that their work is > mysterious or obscure until they with competence have duplicated what is > in the patents. And I do mean "duplicated", not "imitated". After long > contemplation of the phenomenon, there are aspects which seem strange > indeed. Why not use wall-powered supplies to provide the setup > conditions instead of batteries? Years ago Paulo said such supplies were > destroyed when the PAGD pulse let go. Why? I don't know. Why not make > LENR cells with cathodes cut from soup cans? It's cheaper. Mike, I agree, the early transistor experience is very similar to what people now suffer with cold fusion. For example, one of the major problems with early transistors was the level of required purity. Very small amounts of impurity in the Ge would cause large and unexpected changes in the electrical properties. These amounts were below the level of detection until new analytical tools were developed. The same is true of cold fusion. The active material is a very small amount of material deposited on an inert substrate, a domain that is too small to see by normal methods. Therefore, once again, new tools must be applied, in addition to a new attitude. Palladium was used initially and is still thought to be the active material by some people. However, the palladium is only an inert substrate on which the active material deposits. Once the proper deposit has been identified, the effect will be completely reproducible regardless of what is used as the inert substrate. Soup cans would work just as well, provided the proper deposits are applied. The point I'm making is that knowing the important variables is more important than simply duplicating the effect. This requires making assumptions about the basic process. In the case of the transistor, the basic process involved electron conduction. The basic process in cold fusion involves a nuclear process in a solid lattice. For flight, the basic process involves the pressure differential created by air flowing over a curved surface. In each case, success was achieved by understanding the basic process. For transistors, the conduction band became the center of attention, for cold fusion, the solid structure is important, and for flight, the pressure of flowing air is measured. So I ask, what is the basic process in the PAGD effect? For example, how can moving ions extract energy from their surroundings? Why must the ions and/or electrons only move in a certain way, as caused by the unique applied voltage? How can this required motion be achieved other ways to give the same result? I suggest these are some of the questions that need answers, assuming the PAGD effect actually produces over unity energy. In other words, I'm suggesting that the basic process in the PAGD effect is ion/electron motion. The rest of the device is only important to produce the unique voltage pulse, just as the inert substrate in a F-P cell is only important to hold the active deposit. Discover what is unique about the voltage pulse, and the effect could be reproduced at will in many kinds of devices. Regards, Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 19:23:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j263NdHZ016014; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:23:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j263NSQp015949; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:23:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:23:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:23:50 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Energy - The Big Picture Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Table 1 - Current energy plant capital cost in $/W Gas turbine 0.5 Wind 2.0 Solar tower 2.5 Nuclear 6.0 One MBtu is equivalent to 33.43 watts expended for a year. Multiplying the above values by 33.43 we can thus obtain energy plant cost in $ per MBtu/yr assuming a plant life of one year. Table 2 - Current energy plant capital cost (in $ per MBtu/yr, or $T per quad/yr) Gas turbine 17 Wind 67 Solar tower 83 Nuclear 200 The above values have to be multiplied by 10^9 to obtain cost in $ per quad/yr. So, the above numbers represent the current cost in trillions of dollars per quad/yr energy creation capacity. Thus multiplying the values of Table 2 by 400 we have the cost of plant capacity to provide current world energy needs of 400 quads: Table 3 - Current energy plant capital cost in $T to supply world needs Wind 26,800 Solar tower 33,200 Nuclear 80,000 If we discard nuclear energy as not cost effective, and assume half solar and half wind energy production, we have 30,000 $T capital cost to provide all the worlds energy needs by renewable means. Assuming a 3 percent cost of capital (reasonable assuming value of energy inflates too) we have an annual cost of 1500 trillion dollars to produce the 400 quads. That is (10^6)(1500x10^9)/(400x10^15)$/MBtu = $3.75 per MBtu. If we triple the cost to include cost for novel energy transportation and storage methods, we have a cost of $11.25 per MBtu. This is very competitive with the DOE 2003 costs of energy, as shown in Table 4. Table 4 - Current costs of energy in $/MBtu Electric 25.20 Methane 9.10 Heat. Oil 9.25 Propane 13.46 Kerosene 11.41 It appears the job of converting to renewable energy can be accomplished starting now, especially where long trades are not required. The capital cost will ultimately be on the order of 90,000 trillion dollars, but invested over the, say, 20 years required to accomplish the plant development it will be about 4,500 trillion per year. At $12/MBtu, the world energy requirement costs about 4,800 trillion dollars per year. The capital to achieve the conversion can be obtained by doubling the cost of energy for about 20 years. Considering most of the energy is consumed on the continents in which it is produced, the cost could be substantially less than that estimated, possibly by as much as 60 percent less. The powerful effect of economy of scale has not been applied either. Unfortunately, as with a national renewable energy policy, all that is missing is the political will to make it happen. It is even less likely to happen on a global basis than a national basis. However, emerging capitalists should have their noises in the air. The smell of money is there. They may well wipe out those unable to think in any terms other than big oil. The future is likely another example of survival of the fittest and the adaptable. Any corrections would be appreciated. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 19:39:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j263dEHZ020981; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:39:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j263dCnB020955; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:39:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:39:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Energy - The Big Picture X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 88d4930e78bdc62d7a0c8412b11aee8a Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050306033905.0719A3DE0 xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:39:05 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- On Sat 03/05, Horace Heffner < hheffner mtaonline.net > wrote: > It appears the job of converting to renewable energy can be accomplished > starting now, especially where long trades are not required. The capital > cost will ultimately be on the order of 90,000 trillion dollars, but > invested over the, say, 20 years required to accomplish the plant > development it will be about 4,500 trillion per year. I assume you mean American "trillion", i.e., 10^12. In any case, long term conversion of energy sources needs to be analyzed this way. This is very enlightening. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 20:30:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j264UMHZ006449; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:30:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j264UIcb006418; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:30:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:30:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ugrviJyY2rBqQteUhM3qxnWi/qjXNwNpsbuOmjd90ZWqgHrRmSrunlfTbehq2tjnzVl+q7Lt95R3MqBXdEENWj1Fz+/fIOwFxsJ435JgdptGd2MjLgDa/azfCyGwCaeYAjHDsyjm99RJF+JHBRKSNFB/7BMXyAnPz674ltvR+wI= ; Message-ID: <20050306043010.22104.qmail web41501.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:30:10 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Re: Correa To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Mike Carrell wrote: You are repeating the same mistake > that Jeff made, changing what the Correas did before > you ever see the effect. The PAGD discharge is a > wideband event. It is amazing to state that voltage is simply not fully classified as voltage by measurement, in that we can compare the voltage generated by a transfomer to a voltage generated by a resonance as a voltage rise similar to the transformer principle, and obtain totally different conductions to the loads as comparison examples. I was most amuzed at this many years ago when I attempted to resonate a 60 henry coil at 480 hz from an AC alternator. I computed the LC values together from resonant calculations and then placed this as a load on a correctly formulated q circuit of 40 or more between resonated phases of .15 henry 480 hz. Since the high induction coils were 1000 ohms a significant high voltage circuit was neccesary for the input and as such the q resonant circuit of mid-fourties or more could provide a 500-600 volt input from a 15 volt alternator stator. I "thought" that my book value derived LC values were correct because of the fact that the circuit would light neons attached to it, or across one of the voltage rises or ground polar capacity. About a year later I reproduced the same alternator conditions using a step up ferromagnetic transformer as the source of voltage, and found that the former LC combinations completely failed to resonate. It was here that when some more sensible measurements were actually undertaken, it was found that the high induction coil itself, while its reactance should only increase 8 fold at 8 times the standard 60 hz frequency had actually increased beyond that linear calculation value to a great degree, probably having to due with the internal capacity between wires in that 9 mile wire spool of 23 gauge wire. In any case however the book calculations, although in error show a useful fact. The "mistuned" LC combination resonated from a resonant voltage source to a significant degree, but not at all from the same ferromagnetic level of voltage created by the same alernator. Thus the "bandwidth" of a resonance is expanded when exposed to a equally sourced resonance as a source. A multiphased tank circuit always has figure 8 pathways,or at least three pathways from alternator three phase circuits; where when the reactances are shown diffference wise between the outer and inner load elements as a resonant transformation, one will be large compared to the other, thus the addition of reactance values in series barely effects the tank resonance, somewhat explaining how a resonant source might expand the bandwidth of a resonance on its width of effective action. The ending result is that a voltage from a resonance can stimulate a broad band resonance, but the transformer only the narrow band made by traditional book calculations. Conversely the EM emited from a resonant EM neon discharge broacasts no specific frequency, but rather a broadband frequency source; ONLY WHEN percieved that way, where a better viewpoint is to say that the influence causes the inductors to vibrate at their own resonant frequencies, which is what we measure as that influence. Because differing geometries of measuring coils record differing frequencies from the same source does not imply the misunderstanding that the broadcast simultaneously supplies all frequencies, where the entire subject is easily dismissed away from the original thinking. Transformers are ***not*** simple > devices in a wideband case, they have stray > inductance which will present a complex impedance to > the discharge. It can be shown that a neon fired from a NST emits practically no EM, just a very small 60hz rf spike, but neons fired from a resonant voltage rise, where a return wire connection is not necessary and a polar surface area and proximity to ground can be made to substitute the ending wire connection; in those conditions the EM can be measured by scoping of any adjacent coil around the neon influence. Apparently then a neon disharge can have special qualities. The clue to the named negative resistance portion of a neon discharge might be shown by experiments to raise the necessary voltage and gain ignition of the neon tube. In one experiment I took a car alternator AC source at 480 hz and connected a single phase to a pole pig transfomer that employs a 62 fold voltage rise. In that circumstance an amperage meter on the transformer primary, rated at 10 Amps must have blown , because the neon ignited breifly and then everthing was disuable by the primary fuse of the amperage meter blowing out. The pole pig transformer is not a current limited transformer like the ballasted NST variety, that limits the possible amount of output current by the high impedance of its secondary, and also the core shunts employing flux diversion. What might seem implaussible is that in this case, the proper NST transformer for 60 hz operation, having twice the voltage rise of the pole pig transfomer; completely fails to light a neon when driven at the same voltage at 480 hz, BECAUSE of how the transformer was designed to limit its current output at 60 hz, where at 8 times the frequency at 480 hz frequency current, the current limitation of the output is also further decreased 8 fold.(or perhaps more as in the first example) Thus a higher voltage transformer device having current limitation fails to work, but a lesser voltage rise transformer having no current limitation output does work, provided we ballast the neon disharge with a capacity to limit the amount of amperage that can conduct through the circuit. In this case of series capacity ballasting the discharge, once neon ignition is formed the source of voltage can be turned down to a lower voltage input by variac control of the field of the alternator and the neon discharge wil still be enabled, although it is closer to its failure point. This is what I believe to be the effective operation of the neon discharge in the so called "negative resistance" portion of operation. The reasoning for this is shown by polar capacity field measurements in one example, where the registered EM actually increases, although we have decreased the voltage input, and also in this cited case of alternator/pole pig ballasted neon discharge. In that case we can put voltage meters across both the neon and the limiting capacity, and make comparisons of the values. When the neon ignites according to its ignition voltage the voltage across the bulb appears larger then the voltage across the limiting capacity. But turning down the input voltage we find that the voltage values across each element become closer in matching values, and if the choice of bulb length and cap values are close enough, it becomes conceptially easy to see that this condition resembles the series resonance of a current limited neon discharge, in that the voltage rises on each series element oppose each other, and that in this case the neon discharge itself of current in a tube length must have some inductive reactance, so it should be possible to put in series a capacitive reactance of equal opposite value. IN this case however the ordinary resonant actions of paired L and C values gets obscurred by non-linearity of the (neon) component. When the neon discharge is increased in volume of light by turning up the input voltage, then the voltage across the neon becomes large in comparison to the voltage across the limiting cap ratio wise... In some ways it seems impossible to measure a lot of things about neon current, it has a triangular discharge gate, not a sinusoidal. Years ago I was stumped by a particular problem, which was to find the phase angle of a argon discharge, which at first seems unknowable, because we have no quantity R to express its resistance, again because of non linearity, THREE SUBSTANCES, water, ferrite and neon gas among others appear to exhibit a very nonlinear behavior in as much as the effective resistance depends upon the voltage of application, ect. In the particular problem a large helical coil of 1500 ft with a known L value was placed across the argon discharge in series. That coil has a known phase angle by mathematics and measurement,so after the argon discharge was added in series this produces a change on the known phase angle, and it sure still is a phase angle problem I havent figured out lately at least... HDN Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 20:34:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j264XqHZ007686; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:33:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j264Xgdl007621; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:33:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:33:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <838b306b-343c-45ed-84eb-bce712f57a3d> Message-ID: <193d01c52205$a4d3ec20$346f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <18e501c521ae$86403c70$346f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <422A21E2.1000306@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Transistors, replication, and PAGD Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 23:31:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Storms wrote with his usual insight: > > Mike Carrell wrote: > > > > > > > It may not be true that the specific construction described in the > > Correa patents is of the essence, or that disclosure overcomes barriers > > to commercial uitlization, but nobody can say that their work is > > mysterious or obscure until they with competence have duplicated what is > > in the patents. And I do mean "duplicated", not "imitated". After long > > contemplation of the phenomenon, there are aspects which seem strange > > indeed. Why not use wall-powered supplies to provide the setup > > conditions instead of batteries? Years ago Paulo said such supplies were > > destroyed when the PAGD pulse let go. Why? I don't know. Why not make > > LENR cells with cathodes cut from soup cans? It's cheaper. > > Mike, I agree, the early transistor experience is very similar to what > people now suffer with cold fusion. For example, one of the major > problems with early transistors was the level of required purity. Very > small amounts of impurity in the Ge would cause large and unexpected > changes in the electrical properties. These amounts were below the level > of detection until new analytical tools were developed. The same is > true of cold fusion. The active material is a very small amount of > material deposited on an inert substrate, a domain that is too small to > see by normal methods. Therefore, once again, new tools must be > applied, in addition to a new attitude. > > Palladium was used initially and is still thought to be the active > material by some people. However, the palladium is only an inert > substrate on which the active material deposits. Once the proper > deposit has been identified, the effect will be completely reproducible > regardless of what is used as the inert substrate. Soup cans would work > just as well, provided the proper deposits are applied. The point I'm > making is that knowing the important variables is more important than > simply duplicating the effect. This requires making assumptions about > the basic process. In the case of the transistor, the basic process > involved electron conduction. The basic process in cold fusion involves > a nuclear process in a solid lattice. For flight, the basic process > involves the pressure differential created by air flowing over a curved > surface. In each case, success was achieved by understanding the basic > process. For transistors, the conduction band became the center of > attention, for cold fusion, the solid structure is important, and for > flight, the pressure of flowing air is measured. -----------------------New stuff: >So I ask, what is the > basic process in the PAGD effect? Excellent question to which I do not have an answer. My understanding is that the effect was found by accident while investigating Xray tubes. The Correas then checked refrences, to be found in their patents, and empirically discovered the means to evoke the effect at will and capture the energy. What is conspicuously absent from the patents and publications is a discussion of exactly what goes on in the discharge itself. A few images here and there suggest an intensive investigation. Harold Aspden, who has written extensively on aether theory, devoted a monograph to the PAGD phenomenon. There are curious annular pits around one of the electrodes, suggesting a vortex. I infer that study of the phenomenon opened doors to a new understanding of physics which has underlain their later work and monographs. One must set aside preconceptions about the nature of the aether, and conventional notions ion behavior and the like. Dr. Harold Aspden was once head of IBM's patent operations for Europe with a base in the UK. During his graduate work he found some anomalous realtionships between heat and magnetism in magnetic materials, and this set him on a lifelong investigation of the nature of "aether" which is set out in books, monographs, and an extensive website full of tutorial essays. You can find his discussion of PAGD at http://www.aspden.org/reports/Es8/Rep8.htm. There is little I can add to a reading of this report, which sits in a context to Aspden's larger work. > For example, how can moving ions > extract energy from their surroundings? Wrong question. Read the above cited report by Aspden, which may not be the whole story. Why must the ions and/or > electrons only move in a certain way, as caused by the unique applied > voltage? Wrong question again: see Aspden. It isn't the applied voltage itself. The effect occurs in a certain region of the generally well known current-voltage realtionship of a glow discharge, near the arc conditions. The effect cannot be triggered; one sets up the conditons and when a vortex of aether energy comes by, part of it is tapped. One can better think of the cell as a kind of antenna. The discharges occur semi-periodically at various average rates. If the rate is low, the discharges tende to be more energetic than when they are fast. How can this required motion be achieved other ways to give the > same result? I suggest these are some of the questions that need > answers, assuming the PAGD effect actually produces over unity energy. The evidence I have from the Correa's writings and a vist to their lab, is that the energy released in the discharge can greatly exceed the energy necessary to sustain the trigger conditions. The visit was under an NDA, and the Correas have threatened suit if I give any details. The effort by Jeff Fink and the propsal by Chris Zell deviate in very significant ways from what the Correas did. As in any proper study, you duplicate the apparatus until you see the effect, then you can begin to study the effect and vary the apparatus to discover its boundaries. > In other words, I'm suggesting that the basic process in the PAGD effect > is ion/electron motion. The ion/electron motion is the result of the aether energy, not the cause of it. There is nothing in your training in physics to explain how the pulse can contain 100 times the energy used to maintain the trigger conditions. Note that I did not say trigger it. The test circuit looks very much like a common strobe flasher relaxation oscillator, which is what Jeff got by connecting a capacitor acrosss the cell. However, the native capacitance of the cell is in the picofarad range with electrodes spaced several inches apart in vacuum. With the right voltage and pressure conditions, a pale blue glow covers the cathode. At a quasi-periodic rate, a linear, confined discharge occurs and considerable energy is dumped into the charge collector, batteries shunted by a capacitor. Oscillograms of the voltage and current into and out of the cell during the discharge period can show as much as 100:1 in energy. You cna find this in my article in IE some years ago. The rest of the device is only important to > produce the unique voltage pulse, just as the inert substrate in a F-P > cell is only important to hold the active deposit. Discover what is > unique about the voltage pulse, and the effect could be reproduced at > will in many kinds of devices. No, it is not a "voltage pulse", which is an effect, not a cause. You set up the proper conditions, and the events "happen". If you trigger it, you don't get OU. Now all of this may not make "sense", any more than CF makes "sense". I cannot guarantee that if one adequately follows the guidance of the patents that they will find the PAGD effect, but what I have seen so far differs significantly from what the Correas disclose. Much has been said about the batteries for charge collectors. I have discussed the problems with capaciors. However, if a resistor of suitable value is used, the energy pulse can be seen with a storage oscilloscope. I very emphatically point out that the scope should not be connedted to the AC mains, but be battery operated. There is a Tektronix mutually isolated dual channel sampling scope which is suitable for some 2 kilobucks. This gives a look at individual pulses, but for long term integration one needs the batteries. I should mention that the Correas have reported an experimetn in which two PAGD systems were used, with a switch which exchanged the roles of the source and accumulation batteries. With no connection to any usual power source, when the system was operated over an eight hour period, all the batteries increased their charge condition. Regards, Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 21:22:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j265MZHZ021015; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:22:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j265MXoG021003; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:22:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:22:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Energy - The Big Picture Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 16:22:19 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j265MQHZ020951 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Sat, 05 Mar 2005 18:23:50 -0900: Hi, [snip] >Table 1 - Current energy plant capital cost in $/W > >Gas turbine 0.5 >Wind 2.0 >Solar tower 2.5 >Nuclear 6.0 > >One MBtu is equivalent to 33.43 watts expended for a year. Multiplying the >above values by 33.43 we can thus obtain energy plant cost in $ per MBtu/yr >assuming a plant life of one year. > > >Table 2 - Current energy plant capital cost > (in $ per MBtu/yr, or $T per quad/yr) > >Gas turbine 17 >Wind 67 >Solar tower 83 >Nuclear 200 > >The above values have to be multiplied by 10^9 to obtain cost in $ per >quad/yr. So, the above numbers represent the current cost in trillions of >dollars per quad/yr energy creation capacity. The costs started off in dollars and got multiplied by 10^9, so they are be in billions, not trillions of dollars per quad/yr generation capacity. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 21:25:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j265OmHZ021769; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:24:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j265OkCG021750; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:24:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:24:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:25:10 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Energy - The Big Picture DRAFT #2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following is an attempt to put into perspective the problem of obtaining the world's energy needs by carbon free renewable means. Table 1 - Current energy plant capital cost in $/W Gas turbine 0.5 Wind 2.0 Solar tower 2.5 Nuclear 6.0 One MBtu is equivalent to 33.43 watts expended for a year. Multiplying the above values by 33.43 we can thus obtain energy plant cost in $ per MBtu/yr assuming a plant life of one year. Table 2 - Current energy plant capital cost (in $ per MBtu/yr, or $B per quad/yr) Gas turbine 17 Wind 67 Solar tower 83 Nuclear 200 The above values have to be multiplied by 10^9 to obtain cost in $ per quad/yr. So, the above numbers represent the current cost in billions of dollars per quad/yr energy creation capacity. Thus multiplying the values of Table 2 by 400 we have the cost of plant capacity to provide current world energy needs of 400 quads: Table 3 - Current energy plant capital cost in $T to supply world needs Wind 26.8 Solar tower 33.2 Nuclear 80.0 If we discard nuclear energy as not cost effective, and assume half solar and half wind energy production, we have 30 $T capital cost to provide all the worlds energy needs by renewable means. Assuming a 3 percent cost of capital (reasonable assuming value of energy inflates too) we have an annual cost of 1.5 trillion dollars to produce the 400 quads. That is (10^6)(1.500x10^12)/(400x10^15)$/MBtu = $3.75 per MBtu. If we triple the cost to include cost for novel energy transportation and storage methods, we have a cost of $11.25 per MBtu. This is very competitive with the DOE 2003 costs of energy, as shown in Table 4. Table 4 - Current costs of energy in $/MBtu Electric 25.20 Methane 9.10 Heat. Oil 9.25 Propane 13.46 Kerosene 11.41 It appears the job of converting to renewable energy can be accomplished starting now, especially where long trades are not required. The capital cost will ultimately be on the order of 90 trillion dollars, but invested over the, say, 20 years required to accomplish the plant development it will be about 4.5 trillion per year. At $12/MBtu, the world energy requirement costs about 4.8 trillion dollars per year. The capital to achieve the conversion can be obtained by doubling the cost of energy for about 20 years. Considering most of the energy is consumed on the continents in which it is produced, the cost could be substantially less than that estimated, possibly by as much as 60 percent less. The powerful effect of economy of scale has not been applied either. Unfortunately, as with a national renewable energy policy, all that is missing is the political will to make it happen. It is even less likely to happen on a global basis than a national basis. However, emerging capitalists should have their noises in the air. The smell of money is there. They may well wipe out those unable to think in any terms other than big oil. The future is likely another example of survival of the fittest and the adaptable. Any corrections would be appreciated. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 21:25:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j265PWHZ022072; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:25:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j265PUOP022055; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:25:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:25:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:25:58 -0900 To: michael.foster excite.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Energy - The Big Picture Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:39 PM 3/5/5, Michael Foster wrote: >I assume you mean American "trillion", i.e., 10^12. In any case, long >term conversion of energy sources needs to be analyzed this way. This >is very enlightening. Thanks for the correction. I shouldn't post when I'm so short of time. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 21:50:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j265nwHZ029781; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:49:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j265nnHT029743; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:49:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:49:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:50:10 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Energy - The Big Picture Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:22 PM 3/6/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >The costs started off in dollars and got multiplied by 10^9, so >they are be in billions, not trillions of dollars per quad/yr >generation capacity. Yes, thanks. I corrected in response to Michael Foster's remarks. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 23:15:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j267F6HZ024256; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 23:15:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j267F1er024205; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 23:15:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 23:15:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:15:13 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Energy - The Big Picture DRAFT #2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "However, emerging capitalists should have their noises in the air. The smell of money is there." I wrote: "However, emerging capitalists should have their noses in the air. The smell of money is there." Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 23:18:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j267I5HZ025497; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 23:18:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j267I1K1025449; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 23:18:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 23:18:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:18:27 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re Energy - The Big Picture DRAFT #2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "However, emerging capitalists should have their noises in the air. The smell of money is there." I meant to write: "However, emerging capitalists should have their noses in the air. The smell of money is there." However, a little noise probably couldn't hurt if that's all it is. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 5 23:43:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j267h7HZ032391; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 23:43:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j267h408032370; Sat, 5 Mar 2005 23:43:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 23:43:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Correa Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 01:44:40 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050305193050.006bd3f0 pop.freeserve.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Not really sure why the "reply to" does that. The message is technically being sent from the mail server, not from me per se. The "reply to" address should update accordingly... there is nothing I can do from my end. It's a mail server thing. My lazy work around to that problem (and it only really happens with a small minority, had no idea I was one of them) is to hit "reply to all" and simply click on and delete the offending address. That might save you a few mouse picks. 8^) -john -----Original Message----- From: Grimer [mailto:f.grimer grimer2.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 1:31 PM To: johnsteck tetrahelix.com Subject: RE: Correa At 09:38 am 05-03-05 -0600, you wrote: >For those of us that read email in plain text to avoid embedded viruses >please refrain from formatted replies... it is impossible to follow. Also, >formatting gets stripped out in the archived messages so the historical >context of your thread is lost too. > >Just a suggestion. -john And a jolly good one too! I always understood that Vortex post should have no HTML and no attachments. It's very irritating for people who are reading in plain text to have to delete wodges of HTML before being able to reply. And while I'm having a moan I would like to point out, John Steck, that your e-mail address appears where the Vortex address normally appears. This means that I have to delete your address, click on my nicknames window and substitute the Vortex address or my reply will go to you rather than Vortex. Quite a few posts come through like this. I don't know why but I wish people would sort it, out of consideration for those of us who keep our Lord Beaty's commandments. ;-) As for attachments, if posters want to refer to photos, diagrams, etc. they can use a URL to their own website or a Yahoo group site. Moan over, ;-) Frank Grimer -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.2 - Release Date: 05/03/04 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 06:39:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j26EdDHZ029461; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 06:39:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j26Ed889029433; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 06:39:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 06:39:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=rEUITjlpBMXr2/iamgv8o45y9dF/miNwdsY6NluIsxB14i1/X82RegasZbN+3tm91u1K7cUEybJvgOejln5km8AHUAKlGhqpThhB1k9KpLs2qKTSKFWxWdFm73+u2VIJhmHGlKjyXmPDBNaHbFRKiNT+lmF2K4VsWy3aQCkEsNc= ; Message-ID: <20050306143901.86563.qmail web51705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 06:39:01 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: University of Illinois Measures Bubble Temp To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1631856494-1110119941=:85262" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1631856494-1110119941=:85262 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 15,000 Celsius! http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050228/full/050228-7.html --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --0-1631856494-1110119941=:85262 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
15,000 Celsius!
 
 
 

Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --0-1631856494-1110119941=:85262-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 08:05:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j26G5SHZ032270; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 08:05:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j26G5KjM032197; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 08:05:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 08:05:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C52266.4823AE85" Subject: RE: Correa Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:05:14 -0600 Message-ID: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF465 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Correa Thread-Index: AcUhj1pTRPuG2ZMcQAeOO6dUlu+pPAA1CxKg From: "Zell, Chris" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Mar 2005 16:05:16.0269 (UTC) FILETIME=[495BD1D0:01C52266] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C52266.4823AE85 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 ________________________________ From: Mike Carrell [mailto:mikec snip.net]=20 Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 9:07 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Correa Chris wrote:=20 =09 =09 Now we're getting somewhere! =20 No, we are not. You are repeating the same mistake that Jeff made, changing what the Correas did before you ever see the effect. The PAGD discharge is a wideband event. Transformers are ***not*** simple devices in a wideband case, they have stray inductance which will present a complex impedance to the discharge. You are ignoring what I said about the discharge continuing with no rise in the cell voltage. You say you have studied the Correa ptents, but you have not understood the implications of what is in them. Transformers also block DC.=20 =20 I don't want to be harsh here, but you have to do your homework **very thoroughly**.=20 =20 Mike Carrell=20 =20 Sadly, I hope you haven't been infected with the Correas' mindset. I have done a lot of 'homework' on this subject - including sending the Correas an e-mail warning them that much of their patents effect may be covered by old patents by Philo Farnsworth in the '30's and '40's in which he obtained "overunity" ( perhaps in a different context) from implinging electrons on vacuum housed aluminum plates. ( multipactor tubes)=20 =20 As things stand, the Correas do not have anything practical to offer the public. For the sake of humanity, let's hope that changes. It is entirely reasonable to question their work - respectfully - so as to try to create something practical out of it. At least one of their patents clearly presents a transformer on the output in the printed schematic, so they've experimented with it. =20 We should respect and try to faithfully duplicate their technical work. That said , we should utterly avoid the spirit of contentiousness, contempt and seething hatred that creates the defeat of noble enterprise. It is not enough to have a Ph.D. If we follow this ugly course, we are making ourselves the equals of darkened hearts and minds who sneer at cold fusion and other developments, regardless of evidence. =20 =20 =20 =20 Perhaps a huge part of this mystery concerns the critical design of the output. Too small a capacitor and the pulse action will be inhibited because the capacitor will be filled. Too fast or brief a pulse and the battery may reject most of it as heat rather than accept it as a charge. =20 It might be possible to use some sort of audio transformer of high quality to transform the pulses down. I would think the low impedance of a small battery pack would be reflected back into the tube favorably. Perhaps one of the new low voltage ultracaps would work in such a circuit. =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C52266.4823AE85 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

From: Mike Carrell = [mailto:mikec snip.net]=20
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 9:07 AM
To:=20 vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Correa

Chris wrote:

       &nbs= p;         =20 Now we're getting somewhere!
 
No,=20 we are not. You are repeating the same mistake that Jeff made, = changing what=20 the Correas did before you ever see the effect. The PAGD discharge is = a=20 wideband event. Transformers are ***not*** simple devices in a = wideband case,=20 they have stray inductance which will present a complex impedance to = the=20 discharge. You are ignoring what I said about the discharge continuing = with no=20 rise in the cell voltage. You say you have studied the Correa ptents, = but you=20 have not understood the implications of what is in them. Transformers = also=20 block DC.
 
I=20 don't want to be harsh here, but you have to do your homework **very=20 thoroughly**.
 
Mike Carrell 
 
   Sadly,  I = hope you=20 haven't been infected with the Correas' mindset.  I have done a = lot of=20 'homework' on this subject - including sending=20 the
Correas an e-mail warning = them that much=20 of their patents effect may be covered by old patents by Philo = Farnsworth in=20 the '30's and '40's
in which he obtained = "overunity" (=20 perhaps in a different context) from implinging electrons on vacuum = housed=20 aluminum plates. ( multipactor=20 tubes) 
 
   As things = stand, the=20 Correas do not have anything practical to offer the public.  For = the sake=20 of humanity, let's hope that = changes.
It is entirely reasonable to = question=20 their  work - respectfully - so as to try to create something = practical=20 out of it.  At least one of=20 their
patents clearly presents a = transformer=20 on the output in the printed schematic, so they've experimented with=20 it.
 
  We should respect and = try to=20 faithfully duplicate their technical work.  That said , we should = utterly=20 avoid the spirit of = contentiousness,
contempt and seething hatred = that=20 creates the defeat of noble enterprise.  It is not enough to have = a=20 Ph.D.  If we follow this ugly=20 course,
we are making ourselves the = equals of=20 darkened hearts and minds who sneer at cold fusion and other = developments,=20 regardless of evidence.
 
 
 
 
       &nbs= p;         =20 Perhaps a huge part of this mystery concerns the critical design of = the=20 output.  Too small a capacitor and the pulse action will be=20 inhibited
       &nbs= p;         =20 because the capacitor will be filled.  Too fast or brief a pulse = and the=20 battery may reject most of it as heat rather than accept it as a=20 charge.
 
       &nbs= p;         =20 It might be possible to use some sort of audio transformer of high = quality to=20 transform the pulses down.  I would think the low=20 impedance
       &nbs= p;         =20 of  a small battery pack would be reflected back into the tube=20 favorably.  Perhaps one of the new low voltage ultracaps would=20 work
       &nbs= p;        =20 in such a circuit.
 
       &nbs= p;        =20
------_=_NextPart_001_01C52266.4823AE85-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 09:01:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j26H0lHZ025979; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:00:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j26H0C71025695; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:00:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:00:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <3e69c318-db33-4672-bd02-2565ad24b6c8> Message-ID: <196f01c5226d$ea4187f0$346f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF465 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: Correa Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:59:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris Zell wrote: Chris wrote: Now we're getting somewhere! No, we are not. You are repeating the same mistake that Jeff made, changing what the Correas did before you ever see the effect. The PAGD discharge is a wideband event. Transformers are ***not*** simple devices in a wideband case, they have stray inductance which will present a complex impedance to the discharge. You are ignoring what I said about the discharge continuing with no rise in the cell voltage. You say you have studied the Correa ptents, but you have not understood the implications of what is in them. Transformers also block DC. I don't want to be harsh here, but you have to do your homework **very thoroughly**. Mike Carrell CZ: Sadly, I hope you haven't been infected with the Correas' mindset. MC: No. I want to make the point that one should start from what the Correas did and published before changing it. CZ: I have done a lot of 'homework' on this subject - including sending the Correas an e-mail warning them that much of their patents effect may be covered by old patents by Philo Farnsworth in the '30's and '40's in which he obtained "overunity" ( perhaps in a different context) from implinging electrons on vacuum housed aluminum plates. ( multipactor tubes) MC: No problem. I have not said, or intended to say, that the PAGD phenomenon appears only in the Correa parallel plate configuration. In fact the patents state that they have seen it various electrode configurations [built by Alexandra], even in flurorescent lamps. Another person has alerted me to reports of unexplained explosions in plasma experiments in Russia. CZ: As things stand, the Correas do not have anything practical to offer the public. For the sake of humanity, let's hope that changes. It is entirely reasonable to question their work - respectfully - so as to try to create something practical out of it. At least one of their patents clearly presents a transformer on the output in the printed schematic, so they've experimented with it. MC: You are correct on that, I had forgotten it. In your text you had mentioned first pulse transformers, then audio transformers, any old transformer. I pointed out that an essential feature is that the voltage across the tube must not rise during the discharge, which will quench it, limiting the energy output. This is the problem with simple capacitors. A transformer, unless carefully terminated and designed, will have leakage reactance which will generate back emf to the discharge current spike, which may quench it. Thus some depth of knowledge is needed in the selction and use of reactive devices such as transformers and motors. MC: Recently, the Correas have collaborated with Harold Aspden to produce a motor. Information is available on the aetherometry website. MC: The Correas had first seen the PAGD effect and learned how to produce it before they used transformers and motors as loads. My caution is to do simple things first and produce the PAGD effect before you add "improvements". As I have mentioned in another post, the test circuit contains a full wave rectifier. It is quite likely that the PAGD discharge itself is oscillatory and may contain videband components. We should respect and try to faithfully duplicate their technical work. That said , we should utterly avoid the spirit of contentiousness, contempt and seething hatred that creates the defeat of noble enterprise. It is not enough to have a Ph.D. If we follow this ugly course, we are making ourselves the equals of darkened hearts and minds who sneer at cold fusion and other developments, regardless of evidence. MC: Quite so. I have no dislike of the Correas, who were hospitable toward me. Perhaps a huge part of this mystery concerns the critical design of the output. Too small a capacitor and the pulse action will be inhibited because the capacitor will be filled. Too fast or brief a pulse and the battery may reject most of it as heat rather than accept it as a charge. MC: That's part of it, and actually no mystery at all if you have studied well enough to understand that the GD of PAGD means "glow discharge" and are familiar with that phenomenon. It might be possible to use some sort of audio transformer of high quality to transform the pulses down. I would think the low impedance of a small battery pack would be reflected back into the tube favorably. Perhaps one of the new low voltage ultracaps would work in such a circuit. MC: The ultracaps are chemical devices; check their wideband performance. I have in another post suggested that experimental work could be done with a resistance load of suitable value, and a battery operated two channel oscilloscope to measure the output pulse and the input pulse together. Tektronix makes a suitable unit, selling for about $2,000. You could capture and measure individual pulses, but not do long term integration. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 09:09:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j26H94HZ032591; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:09:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j26H8xvX032535; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:08:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:08:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 08:09:19 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Correa Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris, it would be helpful if you would turn off the HTML option when posting here. It would reduce your post size by about 2/3. Thanks. At 10:05 AM 3/6/5, Zell, Chris wrote: > > >________________________________ > >From: Mike Carrell [mailto:mikec snip.net] >Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 9:07 AM >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Correa > > >Chris wrote: > > > > Now we're getting somewhere! > > No, we are not. You are repeating the same mistake that Jeff >made, changing what the Correas did before you ever see the effect. The >PAGD discharge is a wideband event. Transformers are ***not*** simple >devices in a wideband case, they have stray inductance which will >present a complex impedance to the discharge. You are ignoring what I >said about the discharge continuing with no rise in the cell voltage. >You say you have studied the Correa ptents, but you have not understood >the implications of what is in them. Transformers also block DC. > > I don't want to be harsh here, but you have to do your homework >**very thoroughly**. > > Mike Carrell > > Sadly, I hope you haven't been infected with the Correas' >mindset. I have done a lot of 'homework' on this subject - including >sending the > Correas an e-mail warning them that much of their patents effect >may be covered by old patents by Philo Farnsworth in the '30's and '40's > in which he obtained "overunity" ( perhaps in a different >context) from implinging electrons on vacuum housed aluminum plates. ( >multipactor tubes) > > As things stand, the Correas do not have anything practical >to offer the public. For the sake of humanity, let's hope that changes. > It is entirely reasonable to question their work - respectfully >- so as to try to create something practical out of it. At least one of >their > patents clearly presents a transformer on the output in the >printed schematic, so they've experimented with it. > > We should respect and try to faithfully duplicate their >technical work. That said , we should utterly avoid the spirit of >contentiousness, > contempt and seething hatred that creates the defeat of noble >enterprise. It is not enough to have a Ph.D. If we follow this ugly >course, > we are making ourselves the equals of darkened hearts and minds >who sneer at cold fusion and other developments, regardless of evidence. > > > > > Perhaps a huge part of this mystery concerns >the critical design of the output. Too small a capacitor and the pulse >action will be inhibited > because the capacitor will be filled. Too >fast or brief a pulse and the battery may reject most of it as heat >rather than accept it as a charge. > > It might be possible to use some sort of audio >transformer of high quality to transform the pulses down. I would think >the low impedance > of a small battery pack would be reflected >back into the tube favorably. Perhaps one of the new low voltage >ultracaps would work > in such a circuit. > > > > > > > > > > > >
color=#0000ff size=2> 

>
>
>From: Mike Carrell [mailto:mikec snip.net] >
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 9:07 AM
To: >vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Correa

>
>
Chris wrote:
>
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; >BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> >

>
>class=359301422-04032005>        &n >bsp;         > Now we're getting somewhere!
>
class=359301422-04032005> 
>
class=359301422-04032005>No, > we are not. You are repeating the same mistake that Jeff made, changing what > the Correas did before you ever see the effect. The PAGD discharge is a > wideband event. Transformers are ***not*** simple devices in a wideband >case, > they have stray inductance which will present a complex impedance to the > discharge. You are ignoring what I said about the discharge continuing >with no > rise in the cell voltage. You say you have studied the Correa ptents, >but you > have not understood the implications of what is in them. Transformers also > block DC.
>
class=359301422-04032005> 
>
I > don't want to be harsh here, but you have to do your homework **very > thoroughly**.
>
class=359301422-04032005> 
>
face=Arial> size=2>Mike Carrell color=#0000ff> 
>
face=Arial> size=2> class=578304515-06032005> 
>
face=Arial> size=2>   Sadly,  I hope you > haven't been infected with the Correas' mindset.  I have done a lot of > 'homework' on this subject - including sending > the
>
face=Arial> size=2>Correas an e-mail warning them >that much > of their patents effect may be covered by old patents by Philo Farnsworth in > the '30's and '40's
>
face=Arial> size=2>in which he obtained "overunity" ( > perhaps in a different context) from implinging electrons on vacuum housed > aluminum plates. ( multipactor > tubes) 
>
face=Arial> size=2> class=578304515-06032005> 
>
face=Arial> size=2>   As things stand, the > Correas do not have anything practical to offer the public.  For >the sake > of humanity, let's hope that >changes.
>
face=Arial> size=2>It is entirely reasonable to question > their  work - respectfully - so as to try to create something practical > out of it.  At least one of >their
>
face=Arial> size=2>patents clearly presents a transformer > on the output in the printed schematic, so they've experimented with > it.
>
face=Arial> size=2> class=578304515-06032005> 
>
face=Arial> size=2>  We should respect and try to > faithfully duplicate their technical work.  That said , we should >utterly > avoid the spirit of contentiousness,
>
face=Arial> size=2>contempt and seething hatred that > creates the defeat of noble enterprise.  It is not enough to have a > Ph.D.  If we follow this ugly > course,
>
face=Arial> size=2>we are making ourselves the equals of > darkened hearts and minds who sneer at cold fusion and other developments, > regardless of evidence.
>
face=Arial> size=2> class=578304515-06032005> 
>
face=Arial> size=2> class=578304515-06032005> 
>
face=Arial> size=2> class=578304515-06032005> 
>
class=359301422-04032005> 
>
>class=359301422-04032005>        &n >bsp;         > Perhaps a huge part of this mystery concerns the critical design of the > output.  Too small a capacitor and the pulse action will be > inhibited
>
>class=359301422-04032005>        &n >bsp;         > because the capacitor will be filled.  Too fast or brief a pulse >and the > battery may reject most of it as heat rather than accept it as a > charge.
>
class=359301422-04032005> 
>
>class=359301422-04032005>        &n >bsp;         > It might be possible to use some sort of audio transformer of high >quality to > transform the pulses down.  I would think the low > impedance
>
>class=359301422-04032005>        &n >bsp;         > of  a small battery pack would be reflected back into the tube > favorably.  Perhaps one of the new low voltage ultracaps would > work
>
>class=359301422-04032005>        &n >bsp;        > in such a circuit.
>
class=359301422-04032005> 
>
>class=359301422-04032005>        &n >bsp;        >
Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 09:20:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j26HJjHZ005673; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:19:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j26HJhEP005643; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:19:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:19:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050306092024.04edc3e8 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 09:24:36 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Energy - The Big Picture DRAFT #2 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, You may be care to send this to Gustav GROB email: info at uniseo.org. He may have an interest, as well as an influence to see something productive happen with your ideas. Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 09:30:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j26HUCHf010568; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:30:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j26HKCRP005920; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:20:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:20:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003a01c52270$9695ac00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Limitless hydrogen? Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:19:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5222D.88048F00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5222D.88048F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A few warped lyrics (sorry Cyndi) to start off Toto's latest "scoop" = just received courtesy of Brazilian investigative journalist (and = ductwork engineer) Harry Tuttle... I see your true colors, shining through=20 I see your true colors and that's why I hate you;=20 no wonder your afraid to let them show=20 your true colors are as guilt-marked as yellow snow A novel answer to fueling the future hydrogen economy with limitless = American-produced H2 gas from ubiquitous geologic formations has been = suggested in the Brazilian science-press. It does not involve methane, = and produces zero carbon. The only by-product is in-situ silicon-dioxide = (i.e. quartz).=20 So why aren't our dedicated scientists at NREL onto this incredible new = technology like the proverbial stink on Toto's truffles... Supposedly, this idea has been patented and is already being done = commercially but quietly in Russia, and the "buzz" of conspiracy = theorist is that the reason it has been hush-hushed here in the USA at = the highest level, is that the "industry" which of course means the = industry which controls deep drilling, is trying to first locate, buy-up = and secure, at taxpayers expense, all of the best drilling sites, and = obtain copy-cat patents, prior to any announcement. You probably figured = out that a certain company, the Capo-de-capo of the petro-mafia, whose = profits are well hidden in Caribbean banks (actually owns several) is = one of the principle beneficiaries of this spy-war obtained technology. But why should commercial ideas developed in Russia, and obtained from = our publicly-financed espionage network, end up going to private = companies with a history of illegally cheating citizens and hiding = profits off-shore?... Ha, that's a no-brainer, isn't it? =20 Crony-capitalism at work, my Good fella, and once again - you - the = taxpayer - will get the proverbial royal shaft by allowing the same = hegemony and illegal cabal which now controls petroleum - to also = control this very cheap future source of hydrogen. How cheap is this new form of H2? A few Russian defectors and geologists = (the one's not on corporate payrolls) say that it is already cheaper to = produce H2 there than methane (if water is available locally). They even = use the H2 and brown coal to make artificial methane to sell to Germany. = This technique for H2 has the potential to be a tenth as costly to = consumers in the near future as natural gas, given the recent rapid rise = in natural gas prices, according to these same "Brazilian" sources. It = requires the use of explosives, periodically dropped into boreholes, but = presumably these are non-nuclear. It also requires a lot of surface = water, so it is presumably not suitable for arid regions. Many natural metal silicides, which compose the bulk of the mantle of = earth, can split water using only modest heat or no heat. Because these = silicides are found at significant depths, the heat is often there = naturally. For instance: Strontium silicide decomposes in water to liberate hydrogen gas and/or = SiH2. The oxygen combines with the silicon and stays put. http://www.espi-metals.com/msds's/Strontium%20Silicide.htm. There are vast deposits of these silicides in the earth's crust, = especially beneath the "great plains" of the Western US, such that = drilling and pumping water down will return massive quantities of = hydrogen up, but one thing is for sure. By the time the US consumer gets to "benefit" from this technology, the = cost will have been inflated to whatever price the market will bear... = and all indications are that the present administration is setting the = stage for $5 per gallon gasoline at the pump, and equal inflation in = methane prices, should they loose the next election (not likely, thanks = to good Christians everywhere). Jones Are someone's "true colors" starting to shine through ? http://renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story;jsessionid=3Da-1Alzqg34y4= ?id=3D23074 ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5222D.88048F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A few warped lyrics (sorry Cyndi) to start off Toto's latest = "scoop" just=20 received courtesy of Brazilian investigative journalist (and = ductwork=20 engineer) Harry Tuttle...

I see your true colors, shining through =
I=20 see your true colors and that's why I hate you;
no wonder your = afraid=20 to let them show
your true colors are as guilt-marked
as yellow=20 snow

A novel answer to fueling the future hydrogen economy with = limitless=20 American-produced H2 gas from ubiquitous geologic formations has been = suggested=20 in the Brazilian science-press. It does not involve methane, and = produces zero=20 carbon. The only by-product is in-situ silicon-dioxide (i.e. quartz). =
 
So why aren't our dedicated scientists at NREL onto this incredible = new=20 technology like the proverbial stink on Toto's=20 truffles...

Supposedly, this idea has been patented and is = already being=20 done commercially but quietly in Russia, and the "buzz" of conspiracy = theorist=20 is that the reason it has been hush-hushed here in the USA at the = highest=20 level, is that the "industry" which of course means the industry = which=20 controls deep drilling, is trying to first locate, buy-up and secure, at = taxpayers expense, all of the best drilling sites, and obtain copy-cat = patents,=20 prior to any announcement. You probably figured out that a certain = company, the=20 Capo-de-capo of the petro-mafia, whose profits are well hidden in = Caribbean=20 banks (actually owns several) is one of the principle beneficiaries = of this=20 spy-war obtained technology.

But why should commercial ideas = developed in=20 Russia, and obtained from our publicly-financed espionage network, end = up going=20 to private companies with a history of illegally cheating citizens and = hiding=20 profits off-shore?... Ha, that's a no-brainer, isn't it? =20

Crony-capitalism at work, my Good fella, and once again = - you - the=20 taxpayer - will get the proverbial royal shaft by allowing the same = hegemony and=20 illegal cabal which now controls petroleum - to also control this = very=20 cheap future source of hydrogen.

How cheap is this new form of = H2? A few=20 Russian defectors and geologists (the one's not on corporate payrolls) = say that=20 it is already cheaper to produce H2 there than methane (if water is = available locally). They even use the H2 and brown coal to make = artificial=20 methane to sell to Germany. This technique for H2 has the potential to = be a=20 tenth as costly to consumers in the near future as natural gas, given = the recent=20 rapid rise in natural gas prices, according to these same "Brazilian" = sources.=20 It requires the use of explosives, periodically dropped into boreholes, = but=20 presumably these are non-nuclear. It also requires a lot of surface = water, so it=20 is presumably not suitable for arid regions.

Many natural metal=20 silicides, which compose the bulk of the mantle of earth, can split = water=20 using only modest heat or no heat. Because these silicides are found at=20 significant depths, the heat is often there naturally. For=20 instance:

Strontium silicide decomposes in water to liberate = hydrogen gas=20 and/or SiH2. The oxygen combines with the silicon and stays=20 put.
http://www.espi-metals.com/msds's/Strontium%20Silicide.htm.
There=20 are vast deposits of these silicides in the earth's crust, especially = beneath=20 the "great plains" of the Western US, such that drilling and = pumping water=20 down will return massive quantities of hydrogen up, but one thing is for = sure.

By the time the US consumer gets to "benefit" from this=20 technology, the cost will have been inflated to whatever price the = market=20 will bear... and all indications are that the present administration is = setting=20 the stage for $5 per gallon gasoline at the pump, and equal inflation in = methane=20 prices, should they loose the next election (not likely, thanks to good=20 Christians everywhere).

Jones

Are someone's "true colors" = starting=20 to shine through ?

http://renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story;jsessionid=3Da-1= Alzqg34y4?id=3D23074
------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C5222D.88048F00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 10:03:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j26I37HZ020965; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:03:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j26I345L020940; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:03:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:03:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c52277$2a0bdbc0$6601a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <29E5343E7F6959449B97C93EB07190C5042EF465 CCUMAIL24.usa.ccu.clearchannel.com> Subject: Re: Correa Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:06:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01C5224D.3F56B380" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C5224D.3F56B380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Chris, If you want to give me a call, I'll tell you about all the stuff I tried = that didn't work. 610 582 1694 Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C5224D.3F56B380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Chris,
 
If you want to give me a call, I'll = tell you about=20 all the stuff I tried that didn't work.  610 582 1694
 
Jeff
       &nbs= p;        =20
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C5224D.3F56B380-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 13:16:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j26LFnHZ025550; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:15:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j26LFidw025495; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:15:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:15:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007b01c52291$831dd5a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003a01c52270$9695ac00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:14:40 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <1DGQ1.A.QOG._L3KCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I was asked in private email if this piece was a total spoof, or if some of it was factual. The answer is that much of it was presented to me as factual, but from a source that... let us say, has an obvious "agenda" other than scientific advancement. Without an official acknowledgement, especially from Russia, which is where the process was invented, we may never know for sure... and that is why it was presented as a spoof. And as to the assertion. "How cheap is this new form of H2? A few Russian defectors and geologists (the one's not on corporate payrolls) say that it is already cheaper to produce H2 there than methane (if water is available locally)." This does not sound logical at first glance, given that the methane is naturally present in the earth at high pressure, and by comparison, water would need to be pumped down under pressure in order to make hydrogen from silicides, assuming they were as ubiquitous as claimed (don't have a clue). This is all new to me also, but in thinking about the total situation, it may not be that far off in hypothetical factuality. In fact geologic-hydrogen formed from pressurized water pumped down could indeed be considerably cheaper than methane- at the well-head (per btu)... if such things as exploration costs were low (i.e. if finding large silicide deposits with nearby water were no more expensive than finding natural gas). The big cost in either case is drilling the well, right? OK once that has been accomplished, methane starts to flow based on its pressure at the source, but in the case of hydrogen, energy would need to be added to the water being sent down. For hydrogen one would need to pump water down under pressure and the hydrogen returning would be pressurized based on some fraction of the pressure of the water going down. We will assume that the water is free, and that the cost of the borehole and well is about the same in either case, and the cost of necessary explosion to fracture the silicides in not significant, relative to the cost of the well. The question then resolves to how much energy in the form of methane vs energy in the form of hydrogen can be removed per unit of time from the same sized bore and well. After thinking about it for a while, I think the about 3 times more energy in the form of hydrogen can be removed, even considering that the water pipe carrying the pressurized water would take away some of the net volume from the bore hole of the hydrogen well. Natural gas wells have natural pressure ranging from 10,000 to 2000 psi but it declines over time. But water can pumped cheaply up to the strength limits of steel pipes, and one could end up with hydrogen at double or triple the average pressure of methane. Hydrogen has about three times the energy content of gasoline, propane or methane weight per unit weight. Due to its low density, however, if we compare volumes instead of masses, a liter of room temperature hydrogen has 2.7 times less energy than methane. But that is far from the end of the story as hydrogen is much more volatile and easier to pump and pressurize. I am trying to find some authoritative answers on this, but my guess is that hydrogen formed from geologic silicides is cheaper to extract than methane per btu, perhaps by a wide ratio. Not to mention that it is easy to see how this process could have been discovered accidentally, as underground explosions to rejuvenate natural gas wells are old technology, and were developed in Russia - and water or steam injection has been known and used for years in some of those 60 year old gas fields which were the aim of Hitler to steal. Perhaps on one occasion the Russians exploded some silicates deposits accidentally and got tons of hydrogen coming out, instead of methane. That does not sound far-fetched at all, nor would the fact that it is still (almost) a secret, held over from the cold war. Maybe this whole story (political overtones and all) isn't really so far-fetched after all, and maybe I should not have spoofed the idea, but why is their no good info on the net, if it is for real? ... or was that question answered in the spoof? Jones This episode, like many wild ideas which appear in the context of a fringe or off-beat new-group like vortex .... is a somewhat warped reminder of the Ted Sturgeon story called "Brownshoes," (part of "Sturgeon Is Alive and Well: A Collection of Short Stories") about a visionary hippie who invented a perpetual motion machine, and must then resort to the "unthinkable" that is to "turn establishment" (i.e. put on the brown shoes) in order to get the idea accepted by the rest of society. BTW, Theodore Sturgeon, like Phillip K. Dick and GK Chesterton are three of the great almost-unknown finds in all of "thought-provoking literature" - that classification being writers who could stun you with incredibly insightful ideas, usually in short pieces, even if their writing ability was not always the best... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 14:40:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j26MdrHZ020162; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 14:39:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j26Mdmpe020121; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 14:39:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 14:39:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 09:39:36 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <003a01c52270$9695ac00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <007b01c52291$831dd5a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> In-Reply-To: <007b01c52291$831dd5a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j26MdfHZ020069 Resent-Message-ID: <5Mghu.A.S6E.za4KCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 06 Mar 2005 13:14:40 -0800: Hi, [snip] >The big cost in either case is drilling the well, right? OK >once that has been accomplished, methane starts to flow >based on its pressure at the source, but in the case of >hydrogen, energy would need to be added to the water being >sent down. Since e.g. FeSi2 reacts exothermally with water to produce iron and silicon oxides and hydrogen, the only energy that would need to be added is that of the pumping. Unless I have blundered seriously, pressure is energy/volume, so a pressure of say 10000 psi is 69 kJ/L. The water, once converted to hydrogen and burnt again to produce water, yields 241.826 kJ/mol, or 13430 kJ/L. Which looks pretty good compared to the 69 kJ/L used to pump the water down. :) The H2 is going to come out at the same pressure, but, since it's a gas, the volume will be larger, so expansion energy of the H2 can be used to drive the water pump, with extra to spare. This excess is actually part of the exothermal energy of the reaction. (p x volume_out) - (p x volume_in) > 0. One problem may be that SiO2 (or silicates) may form a coating over the silicides, preventing further reaction. Also, the temperature will probably boil water converting it to steam, so one should probably count on a mixed H2/steam gas flow. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 15:17:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j26NHKHZ032009; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:17:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j26NHHJR031979; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:17:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:17:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <002801c522a2$a0cc5840$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Transistors, replication, and PAGD Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:16:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0024_01C52270.3EBAFAD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.4 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,J_CHICKENPOX_62, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C52270.3EBAFAD0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0025_01C52270.3EBE0810" ------=_NextPart_001_0025_01C52270.3EBE0810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankDr. Storms comments intrigue me . As we continue to test various = parabolic shaped segments in our designs for vacuum induction mixer = feeding of products into process streams there are certain shapes of = 3450 rpm speed rotating members that produce extremely " tight" vortexes = in the clear plexiglas test tank. The vortex forms at the bottom of the = tank and extends up to the face of the rotating member. Observing the = vortex " hunt" around the rotating member, it randomly " strikes" the = member.. NEVER at the center but at the discharge orifices on the = periphery. This event occurs at around 20 sec. intervals and is quite = visible causing the entire unit with submersible motor ( 2HP) to " jump" = on its sliding mount. Entrained air in the water is also sheared off the = member. Beside the main vertical vortex created, there are a host of = free spinning " pups" released that are visible (contain an air center) = for a short duration that bounce off all four walls in every direction = horizontal to diagonal in orientation plus an occasional glowing bubble = ( may only be reflection on the bubble from the light below the tank) Examining some rotating members that have been in service feeding 12-15 = % hypo show classic cavitation pitting near the orifice at the periphery = of the member. Of interest .. the plexiglas tank bottom ( 1/2 inch thick) shows a = slightly indented circle ( smooth, not pitted)of 2 inches diameter and = several mm deep which may mean some plexiglas material has been removed = by action of the vortex. We also reversed the motor rotation to run = counterclockwise ( as a northern hemisphere vortex). The vortex cone was = much wider in diameter. The clockwise rotation produces a much tighter = vortex column and appears to exceed the speed of the rotating member at = times . This view from beneath the glass tank also allows us to see the = vortex strike the member.=20 This information may be of interest because the event is easily = replicated each test. We hoped to have the 10,000 rpm test unit with 15 hp VFD drive ready by = now but, vibration problems require dynamic balancing of the components = , plus the heat generated in the oil filled annulus is a problem. We = have also been advised the higher speed unit may produce some uv and = gamma radiation. Perhaps some of our learned Vortexians may comment on = magnetics or radiation we may encounter and/ or measure. Our test = facilities are not "laboratory grade" but a 3450 rpm unit is available = for study by the serious Vortexian. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0025_01C52270.3EBE0810 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Dr. Storms comments intrigue me . As we = continue to test=20 various parabolic shaped segments in our designs for vacuum induction = mixer=20 feeding of products into process streams there are certain shapes = of 3450=20 rpm speed rotating members that produce extremely " = tight"=20 vortexes in the clear plexiglas test tank. The vortex forms at the = bottom of the=20 tank and  extends up to the face of the rotating member. = Observing the=20 vortex " hunt" around the rotating member, it randomly " strikes" the = member..=20 NEVER at the center but at the discharge orifices on the periphery. = This=20 event occurs at around 20 sec. intervals and is quite visible = causing the=20 entire unit with submersible motor ( 2HP) to " jump" on its sliding = mount.=20 Entrained air in the water is also sheared off the member. Beside the = main=20 vertical vortex created, there are a host of free spinning " pups" = released that=20 are visible (contain an air center) for a short duration that bounce off = all=20 four walls in every direction horizontal to diagonal in orientation = plus an=20 occasional glowing bubble ( may only be reflection on the bubble from = the light=20 below the tank)
 
Examining some rotating members that have been = in=20 service feeding 12-15 % hypo show classic cavitation pitting near the = orifice at=20 the periphery of the member.
 
Of interest .. the plexiglas tank bottom ( 1/2 = inch=20 thick) shows a slightly indented circle ( smooth, not pitted)of 2 inches = diameter and several mm deep which may mean some plexiglas material has = been=20 removed by action of the vortex. We also reversed the motor rotation to = run=20 counterclockwise ( as a northern hemisphere vortex). The vortex cone was = much=20 wider in diameter. The clockwise rotation produces a much tighter vortex = column=20 and appears to exceed the speed of the rotating member at times . This = view from=20 beneath the glass tank also allows us to see the vortex strike the = member.=20
 
This information may be of interest because = the event is=20 easily replicated each test.
 
We hoped to have the 10,000 rpm test = unit with=20 15 hp VFD drive ready by now but, vibration problems require dynamic = balancing=20 of the components , plus the heat generated in the oil filled annulus is = a=20 problem. We have also been advised the higher speed unit may produce = some =20 uv and gamma radiation. Perhaps some of our learned Vortexians may = comment=20 on magnetics or radiation we may encounter and/ or measure. Our test = facilities=20 are not "laboratory grade" but a 3450 rpm unit is available for study by = the=20 serious Vortexian.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0025_01C52270.3EBE0810-- ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C52270.3EBAFAD0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002301c522a2$89400e10$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C52270.3EBAFAD0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 16:34:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j270XrHZ026825; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:33:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j270XoTo026767; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:33:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:33:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:34:16 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Energy - The Big Picture DRAFT #2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:24 AM 3/6/5, Steven Krivit wrote: >Horace, > >You may be care to send this to Gustav GROB email: info at uniseo.org. He >may have an interest, as well as an influence to see something productive >happen with your ideas. > >Steve I appreciate the notion, but I barely have time to read vortex and float a few potential memes as they come to mind on occasion. Too many commitments, too much research to do. Assuming research into potentially ideal energy solutions like cold fusion is to be suppressed, then a logical consequence must be to implement interim solutions using existing technology, or technology readily developed using existing engineering principles. Superficially at least, it appears supplying the world's energy needs renewably is technically and financially feasible, and a superior approach in the long run to consuming carbon basd fuels. A push for a global renewable energy supply is possibly a reasonable response to the suppression of research. A huge amount of work is required to do this in a planned fashion. The alternative to building teams to do this work is to float the ideas and let capitalism take its merry course to success. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 16:34:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j270XuHZ026844; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:33:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j270XsvU026807; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:33:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:33:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:34:20 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: University of Illinois Measures Bubble Temp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58336 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:39 AM 3/6/5, Terry Blanton wrote: >15,000 Celsius! > >http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050228/full/050228-7.html This article seems a bit absurd. It refers to the bubble temp of 15,000 deg. C as 4 times as hot as the sun. The fusion zone of the sun is 10,000,000 deg. C. The temperature of single bubble sonolumiescence was estimated by Willy Moss et al to peak around 8,000,000 deg. C. See: WC Moss, DB Blake, JW White, DA Young, "Sonoluminescence and the prospects for table-top micro-thermonuclear fusion", Physics Letters A211:2, (FEB 5 1996) 69-74. Moss works at Lawrence Livermore National Lab. To see lots of related work Google: "Willy Moss" sonoluminescence This was discussed here on vortex early in 1996. I think all that was accomplished is the establishment of a lower bound on peak temperature, not a measurement of peak temperature. A temperature equivalent to 1.5 eV is not near enough to produce significant ordinary fusion by orders of magitude. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 16:51:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j270ouHZ004421; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:50:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j270osQm004393; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:50:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:50:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:51:21 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:14 PM 3/6/5, Jones Beene wrote: >Maybe this whole story (political overtones and all) isn't >really so far-fetched after all, and maybe I should not have >spoofed the idea, but why is their no good info on the net, >if it is for real? Even if it is true, and signals the nice possibility of a cheap form of carbon free energy in the interim, it is not renewable energy. It is still mined energy, and the potential reserves are not proven. Ultimately, renewable energy or fusion energy is the ideal, and renewable energy can without a doubt meet world needs indefinitely. Renewable energy supplies should be pursued with great vigor. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 17:09:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2719ZHZ012111; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:09:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2719XSo012087; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:09:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:09:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <009701c522b2$2bc0b5e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003a01c52270$9695ac00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <007b01c52291$831dd5a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:08:27 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <1avzTD.A.v8C.Mn6KCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > Also, the temperature will probably boil water converting it to steam, so one should probably count on a mixed H2/steam gas flow. And neither steam or H2 can be activated easily by radiation, therefore, in Russia at least, almost any explosive that was not likely to be picked up as a test-ban violation could have been used to pulverized the deep rock formation in order to give a large surface area of active material for underground thermo-chemical water-splitting.... >One problem may be that SiO2 (or silicates) may form a coating over the silicides, preventing further reaction. The cure: time for another large blast? And it should be noted that iron and silica, being the most abundant materials in the earth's mantle (with oxygen and aluminum) would be expected to be found in enormous deposits of un-oxidized or partially oxidized rock, whereas aluminum is found always oxidized. This is starting to sound plausible.... especially the secrecy part. Why the secrecy? Well, consider that the entire Russian economy (95% of it at least) is built on natural gas euros coming in from Western Europe, especially from Germany. Imagine how the average German citizen would react if they were to learn that - in the tens of billions of euros which they send to Russia for the purchase of natural gas (being a rather anti-nuclear country), that some of that gas comes via H2 from a nuclear-produced deep fracture zone where H2 is produced from water and then converted to methane by the reverse version of the Haber processes they invented in WWII. This would not be good PR if it were true. Jones And if not exactly correct, then to paraphrase Chesterton, "All exaggerations are right, if they exaggerate the right thing." --- from: "On Gargoyles GK also opined something to the effect of: ."A thing may be too sad to be believed, or too wicked to be believed, or too good to be believed; but it cannot be too absurd to be believed in a planet of platapi, anemone, tube-worms and cuttle-fish." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 18:02:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2722iHZ002414; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:02:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2722eaX002389; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:02:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:02:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050306180654.04f51c38 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 18:07:31 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: University of Illinois Measures Bubble Temp In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >This article seems a bit absurd. It refers to the bubble temp of 15,000 >deg. C as 4 times as hot as the sun. Wanna bet somebody lost three zeros? s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 19:07:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27375HZ027866; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:07:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27371Oa027813; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:07:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:07:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c522c2$b8b0c700$38027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen ? Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:06:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C52290.6D8FE8F0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C52290.6D8FE8F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0015_01C52290.6D92F630" ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C52290.6D92F630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankInteresting ,the number of oilwells in Texas that produce a great = amount of H2S and CO2, both shallow and deep wells. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C52290.6D92F630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Interesting ,the number of oilwells in Texas = that=20 produce a great amount of H2S and CO2, both shallow and deep = wells.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C52290.6D92F630-- ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C52290.6D8FE8F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001301c522c2$b822b7d0$38027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C52290.6D8FE8F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 20:07:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2747dHZ019701; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:07:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2747Zo0019667; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:07:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:07:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More military might-have-beens . . . and nightmare scenarios Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:11:42 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304165308.02bf3478 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304165308.02bf3478 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200503062311.42390.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: <8nIixC.A.MzE.EO9KCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Friday 04 March 2005 17:07, Jed Rothwell wrote: oth sides had had them, it would have > been a bloody trench war stalemate like World War I -- as indeed it became > by the time Gatling guns were deployed in 1864 at Petersburg.) > > It is not out of the question that someone might develop cold fusion enough > to produce something like the dreadful remote control "mini weapons" and > "crows" I described in the book, in Chapter 11. You would not have to > perfect a megawatt-scale cold fusion reactors to produce them; they would > require only 10 or 20 Watts mechanical. Something with the power of a > remote-control model airplane or helicopter would do the job. They would be > very cheap to manufacture. I did not go into detail, but consider an > organization such as Al Qaeda decided to make some. Al Qaeda has tons of > money. (The CIA says that 95% of men under 40 in Saudi Arabia approve of Al > Qaeda and consider Bin Laden a national hero, so I am sure they have > unlimited funds at their disposal.) If the technology were available, it > could easily afford 50,000 remote-control robot "crows." They would be > similar to model airplanes and would cost perhaps $300 each in quantity, or > $15 million total. In the book I described how such devices might be used > to attack a military base and go around assassinating people wearing > uniforms. It does not take much imagination to think of what else they > might do, in the hands of people who have no qualms about committing > cold-blooded mass murder. Suppose, for example, you had 50,000 crows > available, and a few hundred people hiding in the U.S. to control them. On > day one you randomly select and kill a 16 people in cities and towns across > the country. The next day you kill 32. Then 64, 128 . . . then you go on > the radio and announced that the United States must immediately withdraw > all troops from the Middle East and the price of oil will be $100 starting > now, or the killing will escalate. Of course the US government would > defiantly refuse at first. But imagine how things would be when the numbers > reached 2,048 in a single day? This would be after 4,080 deaths, and you > would still have a stock of 46,000 "robots" remaining. The country would be > in an absolute uproar, with chaos everywhere. Europe and Japan would also > be in hysterics. People everywhere would stay indoors all day long; food > would rot in the stores; patients would die in hospitals, women in labor > would be stranded, and people would soon starve. There would be riots, and > the police and the military would be overwhelmed. Think of what happened in > Washington, DC a few years ago when a pair of snipers began shooting people > at random. Multiply that by 1024, then 2048 . . . I think a few days later > the U.S. would -- in effect -- negotiate a surrender. > How quickly we forget the past! There have been times when we had such casualties and lived through it. In Britain in WWII, the Londoners had similar casualties and pressed on with their lives. We would as well. Were we to be weak, like Cambodians, we well might live like rabbits. If so, we would die like rats, just like the Cambodians meekly went to the slaughter under the AngKha Loeu in the 1970's That slaughter was so bad that a thoroughly sickened and disgusted Viet-Namese government, albiet Communist, put an end to it in the name of humanity. This selfless act was unappreciated and soon forgotten by forces in the rest of the a world that wanted to follow Chinese lead and 'rehabilitate' Saloth Sar (AKA Pol Pot). It cost many Viet-Namese lives to end the reign of terror of Pot's murderous regime. I believe that we would not go the way of the devided and apathetic Cambodians. Were we to be apathetic, however, where would be the rioters that would 'overwhelm the military'? There are courageous people everywhere in this country. Look at the ones in the hi-jacked airplane headed for the White House on 11Sep01 that attacked the hijackers with the yell of 'lets roll', and stopped yet another catastrophe at the brutal cost of their own lives. As long as we have people like that living here, there will be no panic like ruled Cambodia in 1975! Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 20:42:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j274ftMm031679; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:41:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j274fqF3031638; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:41:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:41:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Taming Gravity Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:45:49 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20050225221814.9877.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> <005401c51baa$25206f00$fec263d8@com> In-Reply-To: <005401c51baa$25206f00$fec263d8 com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200503062345.49976.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Friday 25 February 2005 21:23, Ed Malone wrote: > I saw this over 4 years ago when it was new edition of pm. I heard on > radio show that Dr Ning is not been heard from and last anyone heard was > that she went to somewhere in china. It sounds like she was coerced or > forced to or payed off maybe. Richard Hoagland and Timothy Ventura said > that on that show. I wonder what happened. I wonder where we would be now > if then in oct of 2000 she and her freinds got the needed funding, > investing. > > Ed > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Terry Blanton > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 2:18 PM > Subject: Taming Gravity > > > I can't tell how old this article is; but, I've never seen it before: > > http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1281736.html > > Nice pie, Dr. Li! Who knows, maybe she DID get the funds and a laboratory to work in..... in China! I guess we will know the true cost of pathoskepticism when Chinese flying saucers bombard us from space with rail cannon firing 30,000 kph ablative projectiles. Ole GWB would love that. Seriousely though and off topic. Both the Chinese and North Koreans have said they have an announcement for the rest of the world that is to be make this coming Tuesday! Wonder what it is? Standing Bear When perfected, that electrogravity would have another possible property, inertial shielding ala Star Trek! Think of it! 45000 G acceleration sustained for weeks! Tear a hole in the universe acceleration and deceleration and we would not even feel it; and that would not be because we had become a splat on the rear wall either. Einstein's so called limit be damned acceleration, for if UFO's can visit us and trade with others then there has gotta be a way! Dr Li has the right idea. Forget spinning mechanical platters, go subatomic small and quantumize and unify those spins and maximise energy availability just as a finely devided powder becomes greatly combustable. The only limit is compact power generation that does not have to boil water. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 21:30:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j275UAMm021323; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:30:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j275U64p021295; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:30:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:30:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Proton-Boron Hydrino Fusion(Fission)? (was: Small scale ICF) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:29:54 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <05030323595308.06465 isis> <003501c520d3$11b092a0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> In-Reply-To: <003501c520d3$11b092a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j275U0Mm021223 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 04 Mar 2005 07:58:54 -0800: Hi, [snip] >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mark S Bilk" > >> Would this reaction p + 11B -> 3 alphas + 8.7 Mev >> be a candidate for hydrino fusion (resulting in fission), >in an >> electrolytic or plasma-electrolytic cell? 80% of boron >atoms >> are 11B, the rest are 10B. Boric acid (H3BO3) and borax >(Na2B4O7) >> are highly soluble in hot water. > >Of course it would be the ideal candidate, if boron is a >catalyst for hydrinos, or if hydrinos generated elsewhere >can use solid boron as a target. ...or if hydrinos in a "cool" plasma react with B. Note that the plasma is only for creating hydrinos, and has nothing to do with the fusion per se. However having the fusion reaction occur in the plasma itself has advantages for hydrino production. [snip] >> Is the required proton energy for hot fusion of p+11B >higher >> than for d+t or d+d? AFAIK the ideal temperature for D-T is about 110 keV for p-B11 it's somewhere between 800keV and 1.2 MeV. [snip] >> If so, does that mean that the proton >> has to get closer to the B nucleus to fuse, thus requiring >> an even tinier hydrino than for deuterino+deuterino >fusion? Yes. This could be a problem, depending on whether the radius of the hydrino goes as n or n^2. For the former, it's definitely a problem, not for the latter. Note BTW that tunneling of a proton (especially over larger distances) is much preferred to tunneling of a deuteron, because it's lighter. Therefore, the easiest reaction for hydrinos to achieve might actually be p + D -> He3 (light weight particle tunneling against low Coulomb barrier). Has as disadvantage that it may need to decay via gamma decay, unless the hydrino's electron can carry away the energy of the fusion reaction. [snip] >Only if the "water" was heavy water, and then the >cross-section is very low. However the CANDU reactor has >demonstrated that heavy water under irradiation produces >"extra" neutrons which are not accounted for in normal >physics. Since reactors produce plenty of fast neutrons, and the binding energy of D is only 2.2 MeV, might one not expect a few reactions such as: n (fast) + D -> H + 2 n (slower)? >Thus the surprising efficiency of the CANDU, many >of which have operated at well over 100% for tens of years >at a stretch. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 21:47:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j275lQMm027658; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:47:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j275lMU6027632; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:47:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:47:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: vortex mystery Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:47:13 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <4npn21t9p3sq56roechg5dtceeu25v2p9a 4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j275lIMm027537 Resent-Message-ID: <3Tv16D.A.pvG.qr-KCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Suppose one has a tank of water, with a plugged drain in the centre at the bottom. Let the water be rotating in the tank. Remove the plug. A vortex forms as water exits the drain. Conservation of angular momentum (well established for a vortex) ensures that the velocity of the water changes as the inverse of the radius. Since all water eventually runs down the drain, all the water increases in velocity, with the water from the edge having increased the most. The question is, where does the energy come from to increase the velocity of the water? If the water is stationary to start with, then it comes from the change in height of the water as it leaves the tank, and the velocity at the edge automatically adjusts itself accordingly. However if the water is already rotating before the plug is pulled, then it has to end up going faster than can be accounted for by gravity. If the radius decreases by a factor of ten before the water reaches the drain, then the velocity has to increase 10 fold, and the energy per unit mass must increase 100 fold. So where does the energy come from, or for some reason, does it simply not happen, and if not, then what does happen? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 21:49:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j275naMm028526; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:49:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j275nYdR028494; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:49:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:49:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 88d4930e78bdc62d7a0c8412b11aee8a Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050307054926.B7D1E3DE1 xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:49:26 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- On Sun 03/06, Jones Beene < jonesb9 pacbell.net > wrote: > Imagine how the average German citizen would react if they > were to learn that - in the tens of billions of euros which > they send to Russia for the purchase of natural gas (being a > rather anti-nuclear country), that some of that gas comes > via H2 from a nuclear-produced deep fracture zone where H2 > is produced from water and then converted to methane by the > reverse version of the Haber processes they invented in > WWII. How is this a reverse version of the Haber process? Which process was invented during WWI, not WWII, by Fritz Haber, not "them". M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 22:38:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j276cAMm014602; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 22:38:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j276c2vW014550; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 22:38:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 22:38:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=KaBel9xAcZ7L9P2TEfwRMLSCa63OhtkxHececE8fKWSfTISMEBEcqax8r3FHAale6mufkJgL//15nsr9f581f8eSNuE370qPphSF6EQ1sCz78FXPYnP76mlOxhtYFH3rSWrq/f2KrcRDwaq+Ir1qdbFr159xPbRoa0uDlvedY6Y= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:37:42 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vortex mystery In-Reply-To: <4npn21t9p3sq56roechg5dtceeu25v2p9a 4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <4npn21t9p3sq56roechg5dtceeu25v2p9a 4ax.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j276blMm014404 Resent-Message-ID: <1wSZtB.A._iD.Gb_KCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58346 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: a large amount of the energy that forms is from the friction between the water and the air bubbling up. as well as the coriolis force (though theres barely any there). in fact, if you perform this experiment in near vacuum, with teh water at a stand still, it will NOT form a vortex. On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:47:13 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > Hi, > > Suppose one has a tank of water, with a plugged drain in the > centre at the bottom. Let the water be rotating in the tank. > Remove the plug. A vortex forms as water exits the drain. > Conservation of angular momentum (well established for a vortex) > ensures that the velocity of the water changes as the inverse of > the radius. Since all water eventually runs down the drain, all > the water increases in velocity, with the water from the edge > having increased the most. > > The question is, where does the energy come from to increase the > velocity of the water? > > If the water is stationary to start with, then it comes from the > change in height of the water as it leaves the tank, and the > velocity at the edge automatically adjusts itself accordingly. > However if the water is already rotating before the plug is > pulled, then it has to end up going faster than can be accounted > for by gravity. > > If the radius decreases by a factor of ten before the water > reaches the drain, then the velocity has to increase 10 fold, and > the energy per unit mass must increase 100 fold. > > So where does the energy come from, or for some reason, does it > simply not happen, and if not, then what does happen? > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > All SPAM goes in the trash unread. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 23:26:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j277QVMm030747; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:26:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j277QQfT030722; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:26:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:26:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 22:26:45 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:47 PM 3/7/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >The question is, where does the energy come from to increase the >velocity of the water? > >If the water is stationary to start with, then it comes from the >change in height of the water as it leaves the tank, and the >velocity at the edge automatically adjusts itself accordingly. Water in a tank, once spinning, does not stop for an amazingly long time. It is generally thought water goes down the drain a differing direction in the southern hemiphere than the northern hemisphere. However, if you check it a day or two after filling the tank it usually forms a vortex in the vortex direction that resulted when the tank was filled. I recall an article about this in the early 1960's - maybe in Sci. Am. *If* the angular velocity of the water is zero, then the above is true - the energy comes form the water "falling" to the drain, and the angular momentum comes from the coreolis force. The rotation that results is a function of *both* gravity and initial angular momentum. The gravity potential energy is manifest as angular velocity via the coreolis force. >However if the water is already rotating before the plug is >pulled, then it has to end up going faster than can be accounted >for by gravity. Yes, unless the coreolis force exactly cancels the rotation. > >If the radius decreases by a factor of ten before the water >reaches the drain, then the velocity has to increase 10 fold, and >the energy per unit mass must increase 100 fold. > >So where does the energy come from, or for some reason, does it >simply not happen, and if not, then what does happen? Ignoring the coreolis force for a moment, the fallicy in the above statement is the assumption that the velocity v of (some small chunk) of the water changes as it approaches the drain. The velocity of the chunk remains constant at any time. Thus the instantaneous linear kinetic energy KE = 1/2 m v^2 remains constant. The angular velocity w increases however, because w = v/r. Now, you might say that for a rotational system KE = 1/2 I w^2, and w is increasing with radius, so where does the free energy come from? Well, the answer is that in a vortex the moment of inertia I of a chunk is not constant. We have I = m R^2, and w = v/R, so when we substitue these into KE = 1/2 I w^2 and we have: KE = 1/2 (m R^2) (v/R)^2 = 1/2 m v^2 which is constant. Since the KE of every chunk remains constant the energy of what remains in the bowl is the the original PE + KE less the KE of what went down the drain. I hope I got all that right. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 6 23:51:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j277pPMm006430; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:51:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j277pMiF006405; Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:51:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:51:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050307075103.006a76e8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 07:51:03 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: More military might-have-beens . . . and nightmare scenarios Resent-Message-ID: <-TZOfC.A.9jB.5fALCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ... > There are courageous people everywhere in this country. Look > at the ones in the hi-jacked airplane headed for the White House on 11Sep01 > that attacked the hijackers with the yell of 'lets roll', and stopped yet > another catastrophe at the brutal cost of their own lives... -------------------------------------- "maiorem hac dilectionem nemo habet ut animam suam quis ponat pro amicis suis" -------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 05:27:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27DRNMm023731; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 05:27:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27DRIug023690; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 05:27:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 05:27:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 04:27:45 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Let me try this one more time. At 4:47 PM 3/7/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >The question is, where does the energy come from to increase the >velocity of the water? > >If the water is stationary to start with, then it comes from the >change in height of the water as it leaves the tank, and the >velocity at the edge automatically adjusts itself accordingly. Water in a tank, once spinning, does not stop for an amazingly long time. It is generally thought water goes down the drain a differing direction in the Southern Hemisphere than the Northern Hemisphere. However, if you check it a day or two after filling the tank it usually forms a vortex in the vortex direction that resulted when the tank was filled. I recall an article about this in the early 1960's - maybe in Scientific American or Popular Science. The rotation that results is a function of both gravity and initial angular momentum. Some of the gravity potential energy converts to angular velocity via the coreolis force. If the initial angular velocity of the water is zero, then your assertion that the energy comes entirely from the water "falling" to the drain is true, and the angular momentum of the vortex comes from the coreolis force. >However if the water is already rotating before the plug is >pulled, then it has to end up going faster than can be accounted >for by gravity. Yes, except when the coreolis force is in a direction opposing the initial rotation, and its effect exceeds that of the inital angular momentum. > >If the radius decreases by a factor of ten before the water >reaches the drain, then the velocity has to increase 10 fold, and >the energy per unit mass must increase 100 fold. > >So where does the energy come from, or for some reason, does it >simply not happen, and if not, then what does happen? Ignoring the coreolis force for a moment, the fallacy in the above statement is the assumption that the instantaneous speed v of some small chunk of the water changes as it approaches the drain. The speed of the chunk remains constant at all times, except for the speed added by converting gravitational potential energy PE to kinetic energy. Thus the instantaneous linear kinetic energy KE = 1/2 m v^2 of the chunck remains constant except for speed added by falling in the gravitational field. The angular velocity w increases however, because w = v/r. Now, you might say that for a rotational system KE = 1/2 I w^2, and w is increasing with reduction in radius, so where does the free energy come from? Well, the answer is that in a vortex the moment of inertia I of a chunk is not constant. We have I = m R^2, and w = v/R, so when we substitute these into KE = 1/2 I w^2 and we have: KE = 1/2 (m R^2) (v/R)^2 = 1/2 m v^2 which is constant, except for the PE converted to KE by falling down hill. Since the KE of every chunk remains constant the energy of what remains in the tank is the original gravitational potential energy PE plus KE less the KE of what went down the drain. I hope that is all a bit more correct. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 07:28:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27FSFMm017800; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:28:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27FS73Z017741; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:28:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:28:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050307152755.89115.qmail web54510.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:27:54 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <009701c522b2$2bc0b5e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1044154989-1110209274=:89038" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1044154989-1110209274=:89038 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Note that this actually IS the "nightmare" scenario whereby a hydrogen economy removes oxygen from the atmosphere. The water is split by the formation of SiO2 underground, leaving the oxygen innacessible and providing hydrogen for our use. Burn the hydrogen and you get more water, but with a net loss of usable oxygen. Probably not a good idea for long-term energy production. Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --0-1044154989-1110209274=:89038 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Note that this actually IS the "nightmare" scenario whereby a hydrogen economy removes oxygen from the atmosphere.
 
The water is split by the formation of SiO2 underground, leaving the oxygen innacessible and providing hydrogen for our use.  Burn the hydrogen and you get more water, but with a net loss of usable oxygen.
 
Probably not a good idea for long-term energy production.



Merlyn
Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist

Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --0-1044154989-1110209274=:89038-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 07:39:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27FdlMm022255; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:39:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27FdhSO022236; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:39:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:39:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001901c5232b$bc3ce340$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Cc: References: <20050307054926.B7D1E3DE1 xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:38:38 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <5HE3R.A.ZbF._WHLCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > How is this a reverse version of the Haber process? Which > process was invented during WWI, not WWII, by Fritz Haber, > not "them". I haven't a clue as to those details. The stuff in my Sunday posting was rephrased from "questionable" material sent to me (and probably to a lot of others) by a group with a strong anti-petroleum political agenda. Often these groups, in their zeal to expose some real or imagined plot, get some of the science wrong. Here, I am not so sure. I see in a quick google search that Haber was awarded the Nobel Prize for chemistry in 1918, a decision which met with significant opposition given his wartime activities on the synthesis of ammonia for the German ammunition industry, which came a little to late for them to win that war. Of Jewish descent Haber was forced to flee from his homeland in 1933, seeking exile from the Nazi government's policies against Jews. The Nazis supposedly took this body of work, commandeered his Institute and the Haber's process for ammonia and converted it for use during WWII to utilize the large amount of brown coal which they had locally into various fuels and chemicals for the war effort, once they had been expelled from the Crimean oil fields. As I understand the Haber process, it is the first large scale use of common gases, combined with catalysts and pressure - to make new molecules - and presumably that theme can go beyond ammonia, but as to how that is now being done (if at all) to make artificial methane, that is not clear. But with ammonia synthesis, one is adding 3 hydrogen's to nitrogen, and with methane synthesis it would be 4 hydrogens to carbon (or else hydrolyzing coal-derived methanol) so the cross-connection there seems believable. If this were accurate, the irony is not lost there, as the Russians occupied East Germany for so long, bled it dry, and are now leaching even more Euros from a reunited Germany than they ever did before. A further irony would be found in the fact that the Russians, who the Germans detest, using a German-invented process (probably perfected in occupied East Germany to boot) in order to supply multi-billion Euros worth of methane gas, through expensive pipelines which the Germans financed, all the while realizing that the Germans could, theoretically, be making this gas themselves, if they were not so anti-nuclear. That would be my take on it. Jones Plus, the further irony is that in the USA, the same petro-mafia which has bled our populace nearly dry, and dodged taxes by using off-shore banks, is now poised to do the same. That is, to use the same complex process, stolen by espionage from the Russians, and given to the petro-mafia by their Cronies high in the present administration, to do the same economic deception thing once again (as with encouraging if not creating OPEC, which has earned them billions)... and, just as soon as natural methane runs short and they can obtain *public financing* to pay for everything. Not a bad business plan, Dick. At least this is what the proponents of this new conspiracy theory want you to believe, whether it is accurate of not. I can't say that I buy into it whole-heartedly, but there could be some truth to it, as all the greed-motives and past corporate history are all aligned correctly for this to happen. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 09:28:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27HSXMm017525; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:28:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27HSMOx017476; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:28:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:28:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006401c5233a$e9dd58c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050307152755.89115.qmail web54510.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:27:17 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Merlyn writes, > Note that this actually IS the "nightmare" scenario whereby a hydrogen economy removes oxygen from the atmosphere. > The water is split by the formation of SiO2 underground, leaving the oxygen innacessible and providing hydrogen for our use. Burn the hydrogen and you get more water, but with a net loss of usable oxygen. > Probably not a good idea for long-term energy production. That is a valid point, but a bit misleading in comparison with the alternatives. So let's all readjust out pointy caps and look at positive counter-measures, assuming we are talking about a future where science, not politics, reigns. Isn't is also true that this removal of O2 can be offset every time we make steel or aluminum, maybe even concrete, if we do those processes using electrolytic methods which return O2 to the air instead of using coal or methane? Which is one more reason to suspect that Lovelock is correct, in his long-term vision, and that a return to better-engineered nuclear energy is the best ecological solution for the planet, given all that we know now. Obviously LENR, ZPE extraction, or the hydrino could change things in a wonderful way, but given what we know for sure in 2005, there are fewer real choices. I don't see a huge problem with O2 removal, anyway, if H2 is the result because in comparison with burning coal, which both removes a lot more of it and gives you the poison CO2 to boot, you get 6 times more energy for every O2 removed. But also there is this somewhat beneficial solution - using the H2 to produce methane from CO2 already in the air... as has been done since the beginnings of herbivorous life, and particularly evident in its most 'sensual' realization... ta,da... bovine flatulence (Fred has mentioned this before): http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~wolfman/Essays/Cow.html Is there any reason, assuming we have all this cheap hydrogen coming form silicide wells, why Methanogensis cannot use CO2 extracted directly from air, for instance and use the H2 to make methane? Of course this is only **net neutral** in the long run, as the methane will be burned, but net neutral is a good thing, right? A least until we can go 100% nuclear (or some new energy technology). Bacteria in the stomachs of cows (and other ruminant animals) break down and ferment fodder during digestion, producing methane. There is no reason why this can't be bio-engineered to happen in factories near H2 wells. "The initial steps are performed either by facultative anaerobic bacteria (such as E. coli which convert formate to H2 and CO2) or by obligate anaerobes (Clostridium or Selenomonas which do similar conversions) (College, 1999)." "Methanogenic archaebacteria (a group separate from true bacteria) are obligate anaerobes that are very sensitive to oxygen and prefer environments without any other electron acceptors such as nitrogen (Beckmanm, 2000; College, 1999). They perform the final steps in the fermentation and they convert H2 and CO2 produced by the other organisms to methane by the following equation: 4 H2 + CO2 --> CH4 + 2 H2O + ATP or they can convert acetic acid to make methane as below: C2H4O2 --> CH4 + CO2 + ATP Now that is an interesting new spin on "cutting the cheese", right? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 09:54:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27HrqMm031264; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:53:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27HrgSZ031166; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:53:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:53:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050307093553.00b00d58 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 09:58:38 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Dr. K. L. Shanahan, Savannah River National Laboratory Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1174991484==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1174991484==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Vorts - Kirk Shanahan posted the following message to the Wiki cold fusion page on 2 March, at 16:45. Eight minutes later, Wiki watchdog David W. Brooks, an apparent sysop for the page - most appropriately - erased this entire entry, reverting to the prior revision. I wonder if Dr. Shanahan is reading Vortex and picked up the recent threads regarding Wiki and decided to use that to express his views. If so, I wish you luck in your efforts, Dr. Shanahan, and hope that you do your homework. Steve Recently, a chemical explanation of the excess heat observations has been promoted by Dr. K. L. Shanahan, Savannah River National Laboratory in two publications in the scientific journal Thermochimica Acta (TA). In the first -(TA, 387(2), (2002), 95), experimental data collected by Dr. E. Storms and posted to the Internet in January/February, 2000, and presented at the 8th International Conference on Cold Fusion was reanalyzed from the point of view of a system that produced no true excess energy, but that apeared to do so. What was found was that -a simple variation in calibration constants within +/- 3% would account for the observed apparent excess heat. The article focused on presenting these results, which provide a convenient explanation for a large fraction of observed excess heat results. However, no detailed mechanism for the calibration constant shift mechanism was presented there, and subsequently Szpak, Mosier-Boss, Miles, and Fleischmann, while reporting new claims of observed cold fusion (TA, 410(1-2), (2004), 101), criticized Shanahan's work. In response Shanahan has submitted a new paper (TA (2005, article in press)) responding to the criticism and detailing the proposed mundane (but interesting) chemical mechanism, while also commenting on the Szpak, et al, paper. - -In simple terms, the Shanahan explanation consists of the slow development of a contaminated electrode surface which promotes the at-the-surface, under-the-electroyte joining of H2(D2) and O2 bubbles, which then ignite and burn on the electrode surface. This redistributes the heat produced in the cells, and can produce a calibration constant shift, which in turn produces an apparent excess energy signal. This surface chemistry explanation is driven by the realization that the work of Dr. Storms was done on a Pt cathode, instead of the 'ususal' Pd, and Pt does not hydride. Thus, bulk hydriding levels are not directly relevant to the effect, in contrast to the claims of McKubre and Hagelstein. - -Excess heat claims constitute the most common form of evidence presented for a nuclear explanation of the cold fusion claims, but there are additional claims to have observed a wide variety of nuclear ash (nuclear reaction products). Dr. Shanahan has posted extensive discussions of how such nuclear ash observations could have been obtained by the various researchers involved on the Internet Usenet newsgroup sci.physics.fusion. Most of these explanations invoke poor analytical chemistry practices. - -The claims of Dr. Shanahan represent an alternative explanation to the nuclear version of 'cold fusion' and, barring some reasonable explanation as to why Dr. Shanahan's theses are incorrect, as such clearly establish that the issue of the nuclear nature of 'cold fusion' is not yet decided, over 15 years afer the initial announcements of such. ********* The following subsequent conversation occurred between Shanahan and Brooks: KS: David, Any particular reason that you reverted my addition to the Cold Fusion main page (Hidden Chemistry)? Kirk Shanahan (new Wikipedia user - KirkShanahan) DB: Yes - I apologize for not putting a discussion on the Talk page; I was having wikipedia problems and the system kept timing out on me. Your posting was way, way too long. It was more appropriate for a research publication or a Web forum; this is supposed to be an overview encyclopedia article, not an in-depth analysis of all old, new and potentially relevant research findings. You can imagine what would happen if every research lab in the world that has new data relating to cold fusion were to put in three or four paragraphs about its work here - the article would be so enormous that no browser could handle it, and no human being could read it. If you think this work is truly new, signifcant and informative enough to make the level of this article, then one or two sentences - no more, please! - and an "external link" at the bottom would be appropriate. But in a field as cutting-edge as this, new research should be approached with extreme caution: should we perhaps wait until it gets more supporting tests from others? By the way, why not create an account, so you can sign and time stamp your entries? No personal information needs to be given out, if you prefer. - DavidWBrooks 19:33, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC) KS: Ok - when I printed out the Wikipedia page on CF for my files, it was 11 pages long, and only about 3/4 of a page was my contribution, so I didn't think I had been excessive. I wanted to let Wiki's readers know that there is an actual chemical explanation of CF out there, and to give a brief overview of it. As well, I pointed to the newsgroup and literature which is many, many pages to read. What do I need to do to my section to get it included? - Kirk Shanahan -end --=====================_1174991484==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Vorts -

Kirk Shanahan 
posted the following message to the Wiki cold fusion
page on 2 March, at 16:45.
Eight minutes later, Wiki watchdog David W. Brooks, an apparent sysop for the page - most appropriately - erased this entire entry, reverting to the prior revision.

I wonder if Dr. Shanahan is reading Vortex and picked up the recent threads regarding Wiki and decided to use that to express his views.
If so, I wish you luck in your efforts, Dr. Shanahan, and hope that you do your homework.


Steve


Recently, a chemical explanation of the excess heat observations has been promoted by Dr. K. L. Shanahan, Savannah
River National Laboratory in two publications in the scientific journal Thermochimica Acta (TA). In the first -(TA, 387(2), (2002), 95), experimental data collected by Dr. E. Storms and posted to the Internet in January/February, 2000, and presented at the 8th International Conference on Cold Fusion was reanalyzed from the point of view of a system that produced no true excess energy, but that apeared to do so. What was found was that
-a simple variation in calibration constants within +/- 3% would account for the observed apparent excess heat. The article focused on presenting these results, which provide a convenient explanation for a large fraction of observed excess heat results. However, no detailed mechanism for the calibration constant shift mechanism was presented there, and subsequently Szpak, Mosier-Boss, Miles, and Fleischmann, while reporting new claims of observed cold fusion (TA, 410(1-2), (2004), 101), criticized Shanahan's work. In response Shanahan has submitted a new paper (TA (2005, article in press)) responding to the criticism and detailing the proposed mundane (but interesting) chemical mechanism, while also commenting on the Szpak, et al, paper. 
-
-In simple terms, the Shanahan explanation consists of the slow development of a contaminated electrode surface which promotes the at-the-surface, under-the-electroyte joining of H2(D2) and O2 bubbles, which then ignite and burn on the electrode surface. This redistributes the heat produced in the cells, and can produce a calibration constant shift, which in turn produces an apparent excess energy signal. This surface chemistry explanation is driven by the realization that the work of Dr. Storms was done on a Pt cathode, instead of the 'ususal' Pd, and Pt does not hydride. Thus, bulk hydriding levels are not directly relevant to the effect, in contrast to the claims of McKubre and Hagelstein.
-
-Excess heat claims constitute the most common form of evidence presented for a nuclear explanation of the cold fusion claims, but there are additional claims to have observed a wide variety of nuclear ash (nuclear reaction products). Dr. Shanahan has posted extensive discussions of how such nuclear ash observations could have been obtained by the various researchers involved on the Internet Usenet newsgroup sci.physics.fusion. Most of these explanations invoke poor analytical chemistry practices.
-
-The claims of Dr. Shanahan represent an alternative explanation to the nuclear version of 'cold fusion' and, barring some reasonable explanation as to why Dr. Shanahan's theses are incorrect, as such clearly establish that the issue of the nuclear nature of 'cold fusion' is not yet decided, over 15 years afer the initial announcements of such.

*********
The following subsequent conversation occurred between Shanahan and Brooks:

KS:
David, Any particular reason that you reverted my addition to the Cold Fusion main page (Hidden Chemistry)? Kirk Shanahan (new Wikipedia user - KirkShanahan)

DB:
Yes - I apologize for not putting a discussion on the Talk page; I was having wikipedia problems and the system kept timing out on me. Your posting was way, way too long. It was more appropriate for a research publication or a Web forum; this is supposed to be an overview  encyclopedia article, not an in-depth analysis of all old, new and potentially relevant research findings. You can imagine what would happen if every research lab in the world that has new data relating to cold fusion were to put in three or four paragraphs about its work here - the article would be so enormous that no browser could handle it, and no human being could read it.

If you think this work is truly new, signifcant and informative enough to make the level of this article, then one or two sentences - no more, please! - and an "external link" at the bottom would be appropriate. But in a field as cutting-edge as this, new research should be approached with extreme caution: should we perhaps wait until it gets more supporting tests from others?

By the way, why not create an account, so you can sign and time stamp your entries? No personal information needs to be given out, if you prefer. - DavidWBrooks 19:33, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

KS:
Ok - when I printed out the Wikipedia page on CF for my files, it was 11 pages long, and only about 3/4 of a page was my contribution, so I didn't think I had been excessive. I wanted to let Wiki's readers know that there is an actual chemical explanation of CF out there, and to give a brief overview of it. As well, I pointed to the newsgroup and literature which is many, many pages to read.  What do I need to do to my section to get it included? - Kirk Shanahan

-end
--=====================_1174991484==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 10:29:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27IT7Mm028480; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:29:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27IT2ll028369; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:29:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:29:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:29:22 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Transistors, replication, and PAGD Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:16 PM 3/6/5, RC Macaulay wrote: [snip] >As we continue to test various parabolic shaped segments in our designs >for vacuum induction mixer feeding of products into process streams there >are certain shapes of 3450 rpm speed rotating members that produce >extremely " tight" vortexes in the clear plexiglas test tank. The vortex >forms at the bottom of the tank and extends up to the face of the >rotating member. Observing the vortex " hunt" around the rotating member, >it randomly " strikes" the member.. NEVER at the center but at the >discharge orifices on the periphery. This event occurs at around 20 sec. >intervals and is quite visible causing the entire unit with submersible >motor ( 2HP) to " jump" on its sliding mount. Entrained air in the water >is also sheared off the member. Beside the main vertical vortex created, >there are a host of free spinning " pups" released that are visible >(contain an air center) for a short duration that bounce off all four >walls in every direction horizontal to diagonal in orientation plus an >occasional glowing bubble ( may only be reflection on the bubble from the >light below the tank) [snip] The vortex is the fluid which rotates. The thing striking the rotating member is the vortex core which is probably composed of near vacuum water vapor. The jump is probably caused by a sudden drop in pressure on the rotor combined with a rapid fluctuation in resistance to torque. You seem to be describing phenomena which would be expected from such a device. A clear description of the objectives of the design and the problems to be solved is needed. It appears the objective of the machine is to mix. Are there other objectives? How will you measure the performance achieved by the machine? It appears the problems to be solved are (1) cavitation erosion and (2) the jump caused when the vacuum core strikes the rotor. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 10:29:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27ITBMm028504; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:29:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27ISxLq028343; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:28:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:28:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:29:19 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? Resent-Message-ID: <4jvmRC.A.f6G.p1JLCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58354 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:49 AM 3/7/5, Michael Foster wrote: >--- On Sun 03/06, Jones Beene < jonesb9 pacbell.net > wrote: > >> Imagine how the average German citizen would react if they >> were to learn that - in the tens of billions of euros which >> they send to Russia for the purchase of natural gas (being a >> rather anti-nuclear country), that some of that gas comes >> via H2 from a nuclear-produced deep fracture zone where H2 >> is produced from water and then converted to methane by the >> reverse version of the Haber processes they invented in >> WWII. > >How is this a reverse version of the Haber process? Which >process was invented during WWI, not WWII, by Fritz Haber, >not "them". > >M. I suspect the process to which Jones refers may be the steam-hydrocarbon process. The Haber process created ammonia from hydrogen and methane: N2 + 3 H2 -> 2 NH3 The process achieved this at about 550 deg. C and 200 atmopheres presure in the presence of a catalyst made of iron oxide with small amounts of cerium and chromium. Before 1930 the process by which the hydrogen was obtained to feed the Haber process was primarily the water-gas process in which steam was reacted with coal or coke to produce synthesis gas which includes hydrogen. After 1930 hydrogen was also obtained from methane using the steam-hydrocarbon process originally developed by the Standard Oil Company, though not in Germany I think. This was accomplished using nickel catalyst filled metal tubes heated to about 871 deg. C. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 10:55:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27ItjMm010285; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:55:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27Itg4D010259; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:55:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:55:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:56:12 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Macaulay's vortex problem Resent-Message-ID: <6hf9vD.A.QgC.tOKLCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Providing some ideas may be better than providing no ideas. If all is as it appears a possible solution might be simply to reduce the diameter of the rotor. In addition, it might be useful to provide small vanes around the vortex periphery slanted about 30 deg. so as to direct the outside flow in a return path back toward the rotor. This should increase turbulence and expend more of the motor's energy in fluid shear as opposed to cavitation, as well as disrupt the central core. I don't know your specific geometry, but the vanes might be provided for the existing device by mounting a cylindrical mesh-like or rod framework around the rotor. At 5:16 PM 3/6/5, RC Macaulay wrote: [snip] >As we continue to test various parabolic shaped segments in our designs >for vacuum induction mixer feeding of products into process streams there >are certain shapes of 3450 rpm speed rotating members that produce >extremely " tight" vortexes in the clear plexiglas test tank. The vortex >forms at the bottom of the tank and extends up to the face of the >rotating member. Observing the vortex " hunt" around the rotating member, >it randomly " strikes" the member.. NEVER at the center but at the >discharge orifices on the periphery. This event occurs at around 20 sec. >intervals and is quite visible causing the entire unit with submersible >motor ( 2HP) to " jump" on its sliding mount. Entrained air in the water >is also sheared off the member. Beside the main vertical vortex created, >there are a host of free spinning " pups" released that are visible >(contain an air center) for a short duration that bounce off all four >walls in every direction horizontal to diagonal in orientation plus an >occasional glowing bubble ( may only be reflection on the bubble from the >light below the tank) [snip] The vortex is the water which rotates. The thing striking the rotating member is the vortex core which is probably composed of near vacuum water vapor. The jump is probably caused by a sudden drop in pressure on the rotor combined with a rapid fluctuation in resistance to torque. You seem to be describing phenomena which would be expected from such a device. A clear description of the objectives of the design and the problems to be solved is needed. It appears the objective of the machine is to mix. Are there other objectives? How will you measure the performance achieved by the machine? It appears the problems to be solved are (1) cavitation erosion and (2) the jump caused when the vacuum core strikes the rotor. Based on research posted here on the Potopov device, it is unlikely in the extreme your device will create detectable x-rays. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 11:09:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27J9kMm015404; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:09:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27J9g74015367; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:09:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:09:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003a01c52270$9695ac00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> References: <003a01c52270$9695ac00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:09:41 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j27J9dMm015276 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene posted > >By the time the US consumer gets to "benefit" from this >technology, the cost will have been inflated to whatever price the >market will bear... and all indications are that the present >administration is setting the stage for $5 per gallon gasoline at >the pump, and equal inflation in methane prices, should they loose >the next election (not likely, thanks to good Christians everywhere). > >Are someone's "true colors" starting to shine through ? I would think that the life span of such a well would be quite limited. Since this is a chemical reaction, it would seem to me that the water would have to migrate further and further outward in search of reactive material. Given what it costs to drill such a well, $5 gas equivalent seems about right. I fail to see what economics has to do with religion. When your car's tank is empty, you're just glad that you can fill it up again. Given inflation, $2 gasoline is the equivalent of 20¢ gasoline in 1960. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 11:13:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27JDJMm016814; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:13:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27JDG6T016788; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:13:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:13:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050307140958.02bce668 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:13:00 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Message about nano-particles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1866375==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_1866375==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Here are two messages from someone who is either in India or Minnesota, about nanoparticles. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: Erach Dear Jed Rothwell, Thank you for your excellent book online on cold-fusion. I am a PhD in Computer Science from the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis. My colleague Dr. S. B. Khadkikar (retd.) is head of theoretical physics group, Physics Research Laboratory, Ahmedabad. This gives him a rank of deputy-director of a 400 person organization. Dr Khadkikar had a theory that nano-particles of Palladium were responsible for the variability in Palladium cathodes. Basically, even if you search lenr-canr.org with the word "nano" you will notice that: 1. nano-particles are noticed in active fusion electrodes. 2. charging and discharging the cathode results in formation of "active" surfaces or we hypothesize, nano-particles. 3. making Boron Palladium alloy results in formation of "surfaces" between Boron and Palladium where nano-particles might be found in plenty. 4. nano-particles have a very very high surface area to volume ratio ------ it is at these surfaces that the reaction takes place. Where will I find experimenters to run an experiment based on these hypothesis ---- we have designed in theory the experimental setup with full operational controls. Can you email me the names/email ids of leading cold fusion theorists in USA. Thanking You, Erach A. Irani, PhD - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - We've filed a patent on its use in cold fusion. Do you have contacts with experimenters in cold fusion to take advantage of that fact. I am in India, and in India I cannot do the experiment with heavy water by myself. Thanks, Erach --=====================_1866375==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Here are two messages from someone who is either in India or Minnesota, about nanoparticles.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Erach <erach27 yahoo.com>

Dear Jed Rothwell,

Thank you for your excellent book online on
cold-fusion.

I am a PhD in Computer Science from the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis.

My colleague Dr. S. B. Khadkikar (retd.) is head of theoretical physics group, Physics Research Laboratory, Ahmedabad.  This gives him a rank of deputy-director of a 400 person organization.

Dr Khadkikar had a theory that nano-particles of Palladium were responsible for the variability in
Palladium cathodes.

Basically, even if you search lenr-canr.org with the word "nano" you will notice that:
1. nano-particles are noticed in active fusion electrodes.
2. charging and discharging the cathode results in formation of "active" surfaces or we hypothesize,
nano-particles.
3. making Boron Palladium alloy results in formation of "surfaces" between Boron and Palladium where
nano-particles might be found in plenty.
4. nano-particles have a very very high surface area to volume ratio ------ it is at these surfaces that
the reaction takes place.

Where will I find experimenters to run an experiment based on these hypothesis ---- we have designed in
theory the experimental setup with full operational controls.

Can you email me the names/email ids of leading cold fusion theorists in USA.

Thanking You,
Erach A. Irani, PhD

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

We've filed a patent on its use in cold fusion.

Do you have contacts with experimenters in cold fusion to take advantage of that fact.

I am in India, and in India I cannot do the experiment with heavy water by myself.

Thanks,
Erach
 --=====================_1866375==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 11:31:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27JVFbD028319; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:31:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27JV891028218; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:31:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:31:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <422CAC6D.7040502 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:33:01 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Dr. K. L. Shanahan, Savannah River National Laboratory References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050307093553.00b00d58 mail.dlsi.net> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20050307093553.00b00d58 mail.dlsi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Apparently, Kirk does not give up easily even when the facts that dispute his claim are presented to him on several occasions. His mechanism is at odds with observation because recombination does not occur on the cathode surface, as has been demonstrated by measurement and by simple logic. In addition, the calorimeter I used is insensitive to where heat is produced within the cell. based experimental measurement. All of these facts have been given to Kirk without having any effect on his behavior. On the other hand, he shows no experimental evidence that his model is real, in contrast to being a figment of his imagination. Such is the kind of people cold fusion has to deal with. Regards, Ed Steven Krivit wrote: > Vorts - > > Kirk Shanahan > > posted the following message to the Wiki cold fusion > page on 2 March, at 16:45. > > > Eight minutes later, Wiki watchdog David W. Brooks, an apparent sysop > for the page - most appropriately - erased this entire entry, reverting > to the prior revision. > > I wonder if Dr. Shanahan is reading Vortex and picked up the recent > threads regarding Wiki and decided to use that to express his views. > If so, I wish you luck in your efforts, Dr. Shanahan, and hope that you > do your homework. > > > Steve > > > Recently, a chemical explanation of the excess heat observations has > been promoted by Dr. K. L. Shanahan, Savannah > River National Laboratory in two publications in the scientific journal > Thermochimica Acta (TA). In the first -(TA, 387(2), (2002), 95), > experimental data collected by Dr. E. Storms and posted to the Internet > in January/February, 2000, and presented at the 8th International > Conference on Cold Fusion was reanalyzed from the point of view of a > system that produced no true excess energy, but that apeared to do so. > What was found was that > -a simple variation in calibration constants within +/- 3% would account > for the observed apparent excess heat. The article focused on presenting > these results, which provide a convenient explanation for a large > fraction of observed excess heat results. However, no detailed mechanism > for the calibration constant shift mechanism was presented there, and > subsequently Szpak, Mosier-Boss, Miles, and Fleischmann, while reporting > new claims of observed cold fusion (TA, 410(1-2), (2004), 101), > criticized Shanahan's work. In response Shanahan has submitted a new > paper (TA (2005, article in press)) responding to the criticism and > detailing the proposed mundane (but interesting) chemical mechanism, > while also commenting on the Szpak, et al, paper. > - > -In simple terms, the Shanahan explanation consists of the slow > development of a contaminated electrode surface which promotes the > at-the-surface, under-the-electroyte joining of H2(D2) and O2 bubbles, > which then ignite and burn on the electrode surface. This redistributes > the heat produced in the cells, and can produce a calibration constant > shift, which in turn produces an apparent excess energy signal. This > surface chemistry explanation is driven by the realization that the work > of Dr. Storms was done on a Pt cathode, instead of the 'ususal' Pd, and > Pt does not hydride. Thus, bulk hydriding levels are not directly > relevant to the effect, in contrast to the claims of McKubre and > Hagelstein. > - > -Excess heat claims constitute the most common form of evidence > presented for a nuclear explanation of the cold fusion claims, but there > are additional claims to have observed a wide variety of nuclear ash > (nuclear reaction products). Dr. Shanahan has posted extensive > discussions of how such nuclear ash observations could have been > obtained by the various researchers involved on the Internet Usenet > newsgroup sci.physics.fusion. Most of these explanations invoke poor > analytical chemistry practices. > - > -The claims of Dr. Shanahan represent an alternative explanation to the > nuclear version of 'cold fusion' and, barring some reasonable > explanation as to why Dr. Shanahan's theses are incorrect, as such > clearly establish that the issue of the nuclear nature of 'cold fusion' > is not yet decided, over 15 years afer the initial announcements of such. > > ********* > The following subsequent conversation occurred between Shanahan and Brooks: > > KS: > David, Any particular reason that you reverted my addition to the Cold > Fusion main page (Hidden Chemistry)? Kirk Shanahan (new Wikipedia user - > KirkShanahan) > > DB: > Yes - I apologize for not putting a discussion on the Talk page; I was > having wikipedia problems and the system kept timing out on me. Your > posting was way, way too long. It was more appropriate for a research > publication or a Web forum; this is supposed to be an overview > encyclopedia article, not an in-depth analysis of all old, new and > potentially relevant research findings. You can imagine what would > happen if every research lab in the world that has new data relating to > cold fusion were to put in three or four paragraphs about its work here > - the article would be so enormous that no browser could handle it, and > no human being could read it. > > If you think this work is truly new, signifcant and informative enough > to make the level of this article, then one or two sentences - no more, > please! - and an "external link" at the bottom would be appropriate. But > in a field as cutting-edge as this, new research should be approached > with extreme caution: should we perhaps wait until it gets more > supporting tests from others? > > By the way, why not create an account, so you can sign and time stamp > your entries? No personal information needs to be given out, if you > prefer. - DavidWBrooks > 19:33, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC) > > KS: > Ok - when I printed out the Wikipedia page on CF for my files, it was 11 > pages long, and only about 3/4 of a page was my contribution, so I > didn't think I had been excessive. I wanted to let Wiki's readers know > that there is an actual chemical explanation of CF out there, and to > give a brief overview of it. As well, I pointed to the newsgroup and > literature which is many, many pages to read. What do I need to do to > my section to get it included? - Kirk Shanahan > > -end > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 11:37:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27JbabD001072; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:37:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27JbVqo001041; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:37:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:37:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050307141831.02b9cbe8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:37:23 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Roomba as monster In-Reply-To: <18e601c521ae$8693b3a0$346f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304165308.02bf3478 pop.mindspring.com> <18e601c521ae$8693b3a0$346f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3328171==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_3328171==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Mike Carrell wrote: >Directing a flight of crows into a jet engine on takeoff is one thing. A >replay of "The Birds" is another level of command and control which is >vulnerable to jamming. The measure/countermeasure escalation can put the >game out of reach of terrorists. I was thinking the same thing last week when I wrote that you would have to have a few hundred people hidden in the United States to pull off this attack. However, over the weekend I thought about some more while I was watching our Roomba robot vacuum cleaner at work. See: http://www.irobot.com/consumer/why_roomba.cfm This gadget has a remarkable level of artificial intelligence. It finds its way around the room, feels along the wall, and recognizes dirt and sharp drop-off. It knows how to back out of tight corners and untangle itself from electric wires, cloth and tassels. I would say it is roughly as intelligent as a wasp. And a wasp, needless to say, can easily & effectively recognize and attack a person. The terrorists in our scenario would not care which 1,024 people they killed on Day 7. If they could make control electronics as smart as Roomba's, with something like an IR camera, I do not think it would be difficult for these machines to recognize individual human beings and to distinguish between them and other warm objects such as automobiles or dogs. All the terrorists have to do then is be sure the robots are widely separated to prevent two of them from selecting the same victim. They could launch them from anywhere on earth, have them proceed to different towns and cities with a built-in GPS system, and then on a given date attack the first human being they sense. The only way the US could interfere with this would be to turn off the GPS system, and there are probably other navigation systems that would work almost as well, such as inertial guidance. Actually, you hardly need a navigation system. You could tell the robots to head off in the general direction of the US and strike at any person anywhere, in a town, city or isolated countryside. The robots might kill a few cows and deer, but they will find people everywhere, and it would be hard to miss a target as large as the US. If they killed a few people in Canada or Mexico it would actually enhance the attack. Carrell mentioned advanced insectlike flying machines with flapping wings. I describe these in the book. The terrorists would not need anything like that. They could use ordinary propeller driven it aircraft the size of model airplanes and model helicopters. As far as I know, these things could easily fly halfway around the world war all the way around the world even now. Of course some would be lost in storms, and once the US was alerted some might be intercepted, but plenty would get through. - Jed --=====================_3328171==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Mike Carrell wrote:

Directing a flight of crows into a jet engine on takeoff is one thing. A
replay of "The Birds" is another level of command and control which is
vulnerable to jamming. The measure/countermeasure escalation can put the
game out of reach of terrorists.

I was thinking the same thing last week when I wrote that you would have to have a few hundred people hidden in the United States to pull off this attack. However, over the weekend I thought about some more while I was watching our Roomba robot vacuum cleaner at work. See:

http://www.irobot.com/consumer/why_roomba.cfm

This gadget has a remarkable level of artificial intelligence. It finds its way around the room, feels along the wall, and recognizes dirt and sharp drop-off. It knows how to back out of tight corners and untangle itself from electric wires, cloth and tassels. I would say it is roughly as intelligent as a wasp. And a wasp, needless to say, can easily & effectively recognize and attack a person.

The terrorists in our scenario would not care which 1,024 people they killed on Day 7. If they could make control electronics as smart as Roomba's, with something like an IR camera, I do not think it would be difficult for these machines to recognize individual human beings and to distinguish between them and other warm objects such as automobiles or dogs. All the terrorists have to do then is be sure the robots are widely separated to prevent two of them from selecting the same victim. They could launch them from anywhere on earth, have them proceed to different towns and cities with a built-in GPS system, and then on a given date attack the first human being they sense.

The only way the US could interfere with this would be to turn off the GPS system, and there are probably other navigation systems that would work almost as well, such as inertial guidance. Actually, you hardly need a navigation system. You could tell the robots to head off in the general direction of the US and strike at any person anywhere, in a town, city or isolated countryside. The robots might kill a few cows and deer, but they will find people everywhere, and it would be hard to miss a target as large as the US. If they killed a few people in Canada or Mexico it would actually enhance the attack.

Carrell mentioned advanced insectlike flying machines with flapping wings. I describe these in the book. The terrorists would not need anything like that. They could use ordinary propeller driven it aircraft the size of model airplanes and model helicopters. As far as I know, these things could easily fly halfway around the world war all the way around the world even now. Of course some would be lost in storms, and once the US was alerted some might be intercepted, but plenty would get through.

- Jed
--=====================_3328171==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 12:01:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27K1AbD016860; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:01:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27K18iE016833; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:01:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:01:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050307144109.029af808 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 15:00:56 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: More military might-have-beens . . . and nightmare scenarios In-Reply-To: <200503062311.42390.rockcast earthlink.net> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050304165308.02bf3478 pop.mindspring.com> <200503062311.42390.rockcast earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_4746750==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_4746750==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Standing Bear wrote: >There are courageous people everywhere in this country. Look >at the ones in the hi-jacked airplane headed for the White House on 11Sep01 >that attacked the hijackers with the yell of 'lets roll', and stopped yet >another catastrophe at the brutal cost of their own lives. As long as we >have people like that living here, there will be no panic like ruled Cambodia >in 1975! The bravest people on earth cannot overcome a large technological advantage. Take the US Indian wars from 1850 to 1900. There were many brave Native Americans, and many individual fighters were more skillful, better marksman and more experienced at war than the U.S. Army soldier. But the Indians never had the slightest chance of victory. They were mowed down as easily as the Germans destroyed Polish cavalry in the Second World War. If someone were to develop small CF powered robotic killers like the ones I have described, I cannot say whether would take 50,000 or 5 million of them to destroy the US but I am quite sure it could be done -- probably within a few months. All the courage in the world would have no effect on the outcome. When you accidentally poke a hornet's nest, you can stand tall or be as brave as you like, but it will have no effect on the angry swarm of bees. If there enough of them and you do not run (and you do not happen to be holding a can of insecticide), they will kill you. (Bees kill more people in North America than any other animal.) If the robots were a little smarter than Roomba, and they could recognize military troops and distinguish them from civilians, then we would dispatch large armies in thousands of vehicles and aircraft and they would be completely wiped out within a few days -- killed to the last man -- because they would have to emerge from their protective vehicles sooner or later. If the US had a year or two to prepare for this sort of onslaught we could probably survive, even if we did not have CF. I am talking about a surprise attack. In reality I think it is very unlikely that anyone will develop something like this in secret, so there is not much danger. On the other hand I do believe that CF would make this kind of weapon much easier than most people realize, and there are dozens of other variations have not even thought about. - Jed --=====================_4746750==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Standing Bear wrote:

There are courageous people everywhere in this country.  Look
at the ones in the hi-jacked airplane headed for the White House on 11Sep01
that attacked the hijackers with the yell of 'lets roll', and stopped yet
another catastrophe at the brutal cost of their own lives.  As long as we
have people like that living here, there will be no panic like ruled Cambodia
in 1975!

The bravest people on earth cannot overcome a large technological advantage. Take the US Indian wars from 1850 to 1900. There were many brave Native Americans, and many individual fighters were more skillful, better marksman and more experienced at war than the U.S. Army soldier. But the Indians never had the slightest chance of victory. They were mowed down as easily as the Germans destroyed Polish cavalry in the Second World War. If someone were to develop small CF powered robotic killers like the ones I have described, I cannot say whether would take 50,000 or 5 million of them to destroy the US but I am quite sure it could be done -- probably within a few months. All the courage in the world would have no effect on the outcome. When you accidentally poke a hornet's nest, you can stand tall or be as brave as you like, but it will have no effect on the angry swarm of bees. If there enough of them and you do not run (and you do not happen to be holding a can of insecticide), they will kill you. (Bees kill more people in North America than any other animal.)

If the robots were a little smarter than Roomba, and they could recognize military troops and distinguish them from civilians, then we would dispatch large armies in thousands of vehicles and aircraft and they would be completely wiped out within a few days -- killed to the last man -- because they would have to emerge from their protective vehicles sooner or later.

If the US had a year or two to prepare for this sort of onslaught we could probably survive, even if we did not have CF. I am talking about a surprise attack. In reality I think it is very unlikely that anyone will develop something like this in secret, so there is not much danger. On the other hand I do believe that CF would make this kind of weapon much easier than most people realize, and there are dozens of other variations have not even thought about.

- Jed
--=====================_4746750==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 12:21:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27KKv9p028869; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:20:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27KKUv2028452; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:20:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:20:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050307151051.02c37fe0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 15:20:19 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Transistors, replication, and PAGD In-Reply-To: <422A21E2.1000306 ix.netcom.com> References: <18e501c521ae$86403c70$346f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <422A21E2.1000306 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_5904453==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_5904453==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Edmund Storms wrote: >So I ask, what is the basic process in the PAGD effect? For example, how >can moving ions extract energy from their surroundings? Why must the ions >and/or electrons only move in a certain way, as caused by the unique >applied voltage? I think the point is that the Correas themselves do not know yet, so the only way to investigate this phenomenon is to build a slavishly exact copies of the original gadget, and then begin experimenting with it. If the Correas or someone else working with the PAGD had a general theory then other people could reproduce the effect with a variety of different machines and configurations. This is exactly what happened with transistors. Between 1948 and 1952 a comprehensive theory was developed, and this made it much easier to reproduce the effect even if you did not know every detail of the Bell Labs protocols. Other companies and soon developed alternative methods. However it was still a big advantage to learn the details from Bell Labs, because they had solved many of the mechanical problems that were not directly related to theory, such as how to make extremely pure germanium. This was done with the zone-refining technique invented by Pfann and Scaff. Shockley, who was in charge of transistor research, try to prevent Pfann and Scaff from developing their technique because he thought it was a waste of time. - Jed --=====================_5904453==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Edmund Storms wrote:

So I ask, what is the basic process in the PAGD effect?  For example, how can moving ions extract energy from their surroundings?  Why must the ions and/or electrons only move in a certain way, as caused by the unique applied voltage?

I think the point is that the Correas themselves do not know yet, so the only way to investigate this phenomenon is to build a slavishly exact copies of the original gadget, and then begin experimenting with it. If the Correas or someone else working with the PAGD had a general theory then other people could reproduce the effect with a variety of different machines and configurations. This is exactly what happened with transistors. Between 1948 and 1952 a comprehensive theory was developed, and this made it much easier to reproduce the effect even if you did not know every detail of the Bell Labs protocols. Other companies and soon developed alternative methods. However it was still a big advantage to learn the details from Bell Labs, because they had solved many of the mechanical problems that were not directly related to theory, such as how to make extremely pure germanium. This was done with the zone-refining technique invented by Pfann and Scaff. Shockley, who was in charge of transistor research, try to prevent Pfann and Scaff from developing their technique because he thought it was a waste of time.

- Jed
--=====================_5904453==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 12:27:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27KQt9p001596; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:26:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27KQoU8001538; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:26:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:26:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a501c52353$d5be3f80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003a01c52270$9695ac00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:25:38 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas malloy" > I would think that the life span of such a well would be quite > limited. Since this is a chemical reaction, it would seem to me that > the water would have to migrate further and further outward in search > of reactive material. As mentioned, following Robin's similar thought, probably the only way to keep ahead of the oxidation of metal silicides (just guessing), and the sealing-up of the fractures in the deposit, following an initial explosion, would be to keep underground explosions going, ever so often, in order to refracture the deposit and expose more active material. There are literally trillions of tons of primordial silicides under the proper drilling locations, and potentially far more hydrogen (FAR MORE) could be released from this kind of geology that from any similar sized natural gas deposit, just due to the mass of silicides most of the earths mantle below a certain depth is iron and othe metal silicides - IF that is, they could be fractured in place to expose enough surface area for the water-spltting. You would have to ask the Russians, or Halliburton, about other kind of details, such as how often and how large an explosion is necessary. <> On a lighter note, does writing about silicides mean that one has a silly-side, and/or does a silicide-joke cause one to laugh to death? > Given what it costs to drill such a well, $5 gas equivalent seems > about right. I fail to see what economics has to do with religion. Besides tithing, you mean? I suppose it has to do with using the Church as a silent partner, just as the Fascists and Nazis used the Catholic church, in order to rally voters into re-electing your candidate - which is what has happened here recently due to the neo-cons, who have somehow conveniently forgotten that the main part of conservatism is economic conservatism. ....which means that Bill Clinton is really the only true economic conservative in post-war America, being the only President to deliver large budget surpluses and lower the nation debt. And BTW, as mentioned before, I am not a Democrat; and furthermore, if you are a voting conservative and under 40 years of age, there is absolutely no doubt that I have voted for more Republicans than you have, although very few since Reagan, which is about the time that the neo-con anti-fiscal-conservatives hi-jacked the party under the sickening guise of moral duty, and handed it over completely to oil interests and fundamnetalist-ass-kissing spin-doctors. > When your car's tank is empty, you're just glad that you can fill it > up again. ...until the glaciers start to melt in a "runaway" mode, costal cities start to flood, artic species literally choke to death from methane poisoning, all in about 2026 or before, and by then there is little prospect of reversing the trend. > Given inflation, $2 gasoline is the equivalent of 20¢ gasoline in 1960. It is a little disingenuous to state things like this when any real economist not on the administration payroll, will tell you that the only thing that has pushed inflation IS oil prices. Thast is, since the late sixties when the petro-mafia helped found OPEC, because they knew they would benefit even more than the Arabs. IOW everything else in the US economy, because of productivity increase, would cost the same or less now as it did in '67-68 had not it been for the single item: oil prices (and the money supply, of course, but that increase itself can be traced directly to oil prices) http://inflationdata.com/inflation/images/charts/OilPrices.gif From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 12:50:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27KoA9p012948; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:50:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27Ko5vb012911; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:50:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:50:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <422CBEFA.1060306 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 13:52:10 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Transistors, replication, and PAGD References: <18e501c521ae$86403c70$346f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <422A21E2.1000306@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050307151051.02c37fe0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050307151051.02c37fe0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > >> So I ask, what is the basic process in the PAGD effect? For example, >> how can moving ions extract energy from their surroundings? Why must >> the ions and/or electrons only move in a certain way, as caused by the >> unique applied voltage? > > > I think the point is that the Correas themselves do not know yet, so the > only way to investigate this phenomenon is to build a slavishly exact > copies of the original gadget, and then begin experimenting with it. The problem is that it is almost impossible to build an exact duplicate of a complex device. Without guidance based on even a crude model, it is impossible to know which of the many variables are important and which can be ignored. For example, using the cold fusion effect about which I have some experience, it was impossible to duplicate the F-P work exactly because F-P did not know most of what was important, even when they finally revealed what they had done. Even after years of work, attention was still directed to the physical and chemical properties of bulk palladium. Only recently has it become clear that the action is in surface deposits. Now the number of variables can be reduced and redirected to those that really matter. At this point, we do not know whether the energy extraction process in the PAGD apparatus occurs in the plasma, in the electrode surface, or in the attached components through which unusual waveforms pass. If, as Mike suggests, the apparatus acts as an antenna that picks up energy from aether waves, then where is this antenna located within the apparatus. What aspect of the apparatus is important to allow such extraction? Suppose the plasma is only required to create the required waveform experienced by elections passing through the connecting wires, similar to the way "normal" antenna work. Too many variables are available to allow an exact duplication, even using the patents. That is why the Correas must show that their apparatus actually does what they claim, because only that device has achieved all the known and unknown features that are important. Regards, Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 13:00:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27L0IH4018362; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:00:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27L0C1J018326; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:00:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:00:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:00:40 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:25 PM 3/7/5, Jones Beene wrote: [snip] >... any real economist not on the administration payroll, will >tell you that the only thing that has pushed inflation IS >oil prices. In the US the cost of litigation and medical care also push inflation, as will the falling dollar due to debt financing and trade deficits. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 13:03:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27L3SH4019557; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:03:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27L3Q37019537; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:03:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:03:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050307155555.02c5d3e8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:03:16 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Transistors, replication, and PAGD In-Reply-To: <422CBEFA.1060306 ix.netcom.com> References: <18e501c521ae$86403c70$346f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <422A21E2.1000306 ix.netcom.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050307151051.02c37fe0 pop.mindspring.com> <422CBEFA.1060306 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_8482546==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_8482546==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Edmund Storms wrote: >The problem is that it is almost impossible to build an exact duplicate of >a complex device. Without guidance based on even a crude model, it is >impossible to know which of the many variables are important and which can >be ignored. Of course. What I had in mind was a cooperative project where the Correas themselves guide the advise at every stage. The job might actually be conducted in their workshop, and then the finished product taken somewhere else for extensive testing, to begin answering some of the questions you listed: "How can moving ions extract energy from their surroundings? Why must the ions and/or electrons only move in a certain way?" Unfortunately, because of the Correa's personality problems this is out of the question. I do not think any other method would work at this stage, so the whole issue is moot. We will never know whether the PAGD actually works or not, and it will never be properly investigated or developed. Like most other fringe energy claims, it will never progress beyond the rumor stage, and after the inventor dies it will be forgotten. - Jed --=====================_8482546==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Edmund Storms wrote:

The problem is that it is almost impossible to build an exact duplicate of a complex device.  Without guidance based on even a crude model, it is impossible to know which of the many variables are important and which can be ignored.

Of course. What I had in mind was a cooperative project where the Correas themselves guide the advise at every stage. The job might actually be conducted in their workshop, and then the finished product taken somewhere else for extensive testing, to begin answering some of the questions you listed:

"How can moving ions extract energy from their surroundings?  Why must the ions and/or electrons only move in a certain way?"

Unfortunately, because of the Correa's personality problems this is out of the question. I do not think any other method would work at this stage, so the whole issue is moot. We will never know whether the PAGD actually works or not, and it will never be properly investigated or developed. Like most other fringe energy claims, it will never progress beyond the rumor stage, and after the inventor dies it will be forgotten.

- Jed
--=====================_8482546==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 13:05:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27L4jH4020005; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:04:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27L4iFd019984; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:04:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:04:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050307152032.02c38170 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:02:54 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Energy - The Big Picture In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_8569734==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <4TMwxC.A.M4E.rHMLCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_8569734==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I like the big picture approach, but this analysis is too oversimplified. The cost of making millions of wind turbines or thousands of nuclear reactors cannot be estimated as a straight-line projection of today's costs. Mass production on that scale would reduce the unit cost by a huge margin -- maybe even by a factor of 10. It is conceivable that the direct cost of energy derived from wind would be cheaper than today's fossil fuel energy. It almost certainly would be cheaper when you factor in the cost of pollution and war. In North America, the cost of wind turbines would fall dramatically, but then as the best sites for towers -- with the most wind -- filled up, the cost of wind powered electricity would gradually rise. I do not think that northern Europe would ever run out of good offshore wind sites in the North Sea, assuming the population and the demand for electricity does not grow much. The cost of nuclear power reactors would probably fall even more dramatically (in percentage), because in order to implement something like this you would need a radically new equipment, such as the pebble bed modular reactor. If both wind and uranium fission were developed, I doubt that nuclear plants would ever become as cheap as wind turbines per megawatt of capacity, because they would always require elaborate safety precautions and so on. I doubt that the cost of uranium would be a major factor because there is a huge supply of it and sooner or later someone will figure out how to recycle it or how to make an effective breeder reactor. A sane energy policy for the U.S. would begin by emphasizing conservation because despite 30 years of improvements, conservation is still the best, fastest and cheapest way to reduce U.S. dependence on OPEC. There is still a great deal of "low hanging fruit" -- especially with automobiles. Last week my 10-year-old Volvo station wagon needed an expensive valve job. It turned out it cost 4000 bucks! Anyway, I thought about getting a new car and I spec'ed them out. My car gets ~20 mpg city and 30 mpg highway. I was disgusted to find that the new station wagons get 18 mpg city and 26 mpg highway! Apparently this is because they are "all-wheel-drive AWD" -- which I assume means four-wheel-drive. A few of the old front-wheel drive models still get 30 mpg. This is crazy. Who the heck needs four-wheel-drive in suburban Atlanta for crying out loud?!? There are probably not more than a hundred people in greater Atlanta who actually do drive off-road a few times a year, and it is ironic that I happen to be one of them, but as my mother used to say, any car will do. My mother drove "anything with wheels" starting in the Model T Ford era, including WWII trucks. The people I know who actually live in the countryside do not own SUVs. They drive a Volvo or a VW bug into the woods to collect firewood. On the few occasions when really need to get someplace off in the woods we borrow a 35-year-old tractor from the neighbor. *That*, by golly, is off road. - Jed --=====================_8569734==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I like the big picture approach, but this analysis is too oversimplified. The cost of making millions of wind turbines or thousands of nuclear reactors cannot be estimated as a straight-line projection of today's costs. Mass production on that scale would reduce the unit cost by a huge margin -- maybe even by a factor of 10. It is conceivable that the direct cost of energy derived from wind would be cheaper than today's fossil fuel energy. It almost certainly would be cheaper when you factor in the cost of pollution and war.

In North America, the cost of wind turbines would fall dramatically, but then as the best sites for towers -- with the most wind -- filled up, the cost of wind powered electricity would gradually rise. I do not think that northern Europe would ever run out of good offshore wind sites in the North Sea, assuming the population and the demand for electricity does not grow much. The cost of nuclear power reactors would probably fall even more dramatically (in percentage), because in order to implement something like this you would need a radically new equipment, such as the pebble bed modular reactor. If both wind and uranium fission were developed, I doubt that nuclear plants would ever become as cheap as wind turbines per megawatt of capacity, because they would always require elaborate safety precautions and so on. I doubt that the cost of uranium would be a major factor because there is a huge supply of it and sooner or later someone will figure out how to recycle it or how to make an effective breeder reactor.

A sane energy policy for the U.S. would begin by emphasizing conservation because despite 30 years of improvements, conservation is still the best, fastest and cheapest way to reduce U.S. dependence on OPEC. There is still a great deal of "low hanging fruit" -- especially with automobiles.

Last week my 10-year-old Volvo station wagon needed an expensive valve job. It turned out it cost 4000 bucks! Anyway, I thought about getting a new car and I spec'ed them out. My car gets ~20 mpg city and 30 mpg highway. I was disgusted to find that the new station wagons get 18 mpg city and 26 mpg highway! Apparently this is because they are "all-wheel-drive AWD" -- which I assume means four-wheel-drive. A few of the old front-wheel drive models still get 30 mpg. This is crazy. Who the heck needs four-wheel-drive in suburban Atlanta for crying out loud?!?

There are probably not more than a hundred people in greater Atlanta who actually do drive off-road a few times a year, and it is ironic that I happen to be one of them, but as my mother used to say, any car will do. My mother drove "anything with wheels" starting in the Model T Ford era, including WWII trucks. The people I know who actually live in the countryside do not own SUVs. They drive a Volvo or a VW bug into the woods to collect firewood. On the few occasions when really need to get someplace off in the woods we borrow a 35-year-old tractor from the neighbor. *That*, by golly, is off road.

- Jed
 --=====================_8569734==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 13:09:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27L9eH4022139; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:09:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27L9ag8022101; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:09:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:09:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:10:05 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Roomba as monster Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good grief, Jed! In passing, I've thought of dozens of military uses for CF. It makes no sense at all to make them public though. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 13:23:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27LMIfE027485; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:22:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27LM3o1027397; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:22:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:22:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:21:51 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Energy - The Big Picture Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:02 PM 3/7/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >I like the big picture approach, but this analysis is too oversimplified. >The cost of making millions of wind turbines or thousands of nuclear >reactors cannot be estimated as a straight-line projection of today's >costs. Mass production on that scale would reduce the unit cost by a huge >margin -- maybe even by a factor of 10. It is conceivable that the direct >cost of energy derived from wind would be cheaper than today's fossil fuel >energy. It almost certainly would be cheaper when you factor in the cost of >pollution and war. That was my point Jed. Once the cost of the initial tranportation, storage and generation infrastructure is absorbed, renewable energy will be cheaper even at today's prices and technology. A suitably phased program should be feasible right now via ordinary capitalistic means, though the scale is large. This was also the basis of The Energy Legacy Plan I posted here a while back. I agree that large and nearly immediate benefits are available through conservation, if there were a public will to make it so. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 13:25:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27LOFfE028330; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:24:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27LOBij028301; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:24:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:24:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <422CC6CD.3080908 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:25:33 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Roomba as monster References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <9lP1pC.A.J6G.7ZMLCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Why not Horace? Most people who have the knowledge and equipment to implement such ideas can dream up many more designs than we can. In addition, they will have devices already made that we do not know about and these will be adapted. The purpose of making such primitive ideas public is to scare the crap out of people and get them to force the government of address the issue before it is too late. Right now, the government ignores cold fusion because it would cause an economic hit to all other energy sources. This is the only reason that makes sense, other than complete stupidity. Regards, Ed Horace Heffner wrote: > Good grief, Jed! In passing, I've thought of dozens of military uses for > CF. It makes no sense at all to make them public though. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 13:39:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27LcCW1000761; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:38:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27Lc5lG000695; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:38:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:38:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050307161343.02c630e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:37:19 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Roomba as monster In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_10525593==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_10525593==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Horace Heffner wrote: >Good grief, Jed! In passing, I've thought of dozens of military uses for >CF. It makes no sense at all to make them public though. It makes no difference what I make public. I am sure the terrorists are way ahead of me in this game, and people in the Pentagon probably figured this sort of thing out years ago. The company that makes Roombas already has Pentagon contracts to produce battlefield robots. As for the technical knowledge of CF, we have distributed more than 300,000 papers, and many thousands of them have gone to the countries of the Middle East. People in every country on the map have accessed our site. For that matter, they have downloaded my book, which spells this stuff out in considerable detail. The only danger is that the potential for harm and terrorism does *not* circulate, and people in free countries remain ignorant of what might happen. If people everywhere realize how CF might be used to make terror weapons, then we can develop it first and make CF powered devices (plus conventionally powered ones) to counter the threat and intercept the terror weapons. If the U.S. decision makers go on thinking that CF does not exist, while well-financed terrorist researchers discover ways to make CF work, THEN we will be in huge trouble. Mike Carrell mentioned that the terrorists would have to discover ways to control the power and turn the devices on and off on demand. Actually, they wouldn't. A crude CF device that gets red hot and stays hot would be perfectly okay for their purposes. It could drive something like a thermoelectric engine. If the devices could not be extinguished and they occasionally exploded, melted down, caused fires, or if the hot motors themselves caused grievous injuries -- that would be all the better from the terrorists' point of view. They do not care about product safety or reliability! It would be best if the devices could be programmed to self-destruct as soon as they finished attacking a person, or the moment they were captured. Ideally you would make them explode the way Pons and Fleischmann's 1-cc Pd cathode did -- especially if that produced a fatal burst of high-energy neutrons or gamma rays. - Jed --=====================_10525593==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Horace Heffner wrote:

Good grief, Jed!  In passing, I've thought of dozens of military uses for
CF.  It makes no sense at all to make them public though.

It makes no difference what I make public. I am sure the terrorists are way ahead of me in this game, and people in the Pentagon probably figured this sort of thing out years ago. The company that makes Roombas already has Pentagon contracts to produce battlefield robots.

As for the technical knowledge of CF, we have distributed more than 300,000 papers, and many thousands of them have gone to the countries of the Middle East. People in every country on the map have accessed our site. For that matter, they have downloaded my book, which spells this stuff out in considerable detail.

The only danger is that the potential for harm and terrorism does *not* circulate, and people in free countries remain ignorant of what might happen. If people everywhere realize how CF might be used to make terror weapons, then we can develop it first and make CF powered devices (plus conventionally powered ones) to counter the threat and intercept the terror weapons. If the U.S. decision makers go on thinking that CF does not exist, while well-financed terrorist researchers discover ways to make CF work, THEN we will be in huge trouble.

Mike Carrell mentioned that the terrorists would have to discover ways to control the power and turn the devices on and off on demand. Actually, they wouldn't. A crude CF device that gets red hot and stays hot would be perfectly okay for their purposes. It could drive something like a thermoelectric engine. If the devices could not be extinguished and they occasionally exploded, melted down, caused fires, or if the hot motors themselves caused grievous injuries -- that would be all the better from the terrorists' point of view. They do not care about product safety or reliability! It would be best if the devices could be programmed to self-destruct as soon as they finished attacking a person, or the moment they were captured. Ideally you would make them explode the way Pons and Fleischmann's 1-cc Pd cathode did -- especially if that produced a fatal burst of high-energy neutrons or gamma rays.

- Jed
--=====================_10525593==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 13:50:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27Ln5W1005009; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:50:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27Ln2iA004954; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:49:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:49:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <422CCC70.7040504 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:49:36 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Energy - The Big Picture References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050307152032.02c38170@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050307152032.02c38170 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > Last week my 10-year-old Volvo station wagon needed an expensive valve > job. It turned out it cost 4000 bucks! Anyway, I thought about getting a > new car and I spec'ed them out. My car gets ~20 mpg city and 30 mpg > highway. I was disgusted to find that the new station wagons get 18 mpg > city and 26 mpg highway! Apparently this is because they are > "all-wheel-drive AWD" -- which I assume means four-wheel-drive. A few of > the old front-wheel drive models still get 30 mpg. This is crazy. Who > the heck needs four-wheel-drive in suburban Atlanta for crying out loud?!? Just for your information Jed, my Forester, which is AWD, gets 25 mpg at 7000 ft in the city and over 28 mpg at 70 mph. Also the Prius (front wheel drive) get 45 mpg in the city and 55 mpg at 75 mph. Soon several SUV models will be hybrid with good gas mileage. Last year I would see another Prius every few few weeks. Now, I expect very soon collisions between two Prius will become common. Ed > > There are probably not more than a hundred people in greater Atlanta who > actually do drive off-road a few times a year, and it is ironic that I > happen to be one of them, but as my mother used to say, any car will do. > My mother drove "anything with wheels" starting in the Model T Ford era, > including WWII trucks. The people I know who actually live in the > countryside do not own SUVs. They drive a Volvo or a VW bug into the > woods to collect firewood. On the few occasions when really need to get > someplace off in the woods we borrow a 35-year-old tractor from the > neighbor. *That*, by golly, is off road. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 14:05:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27M3ZW1011426; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:04:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27M3YqK011410; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:03:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:03:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050307165303.02b4b0d8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:02:06 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Energy - The Big Picture In-Reply-To: <422CCC70.7040504 ix.netcom.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050307152032.02c38170 pop.mindspring.com> <422CCC70.7040504 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_12015328==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_12015328==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Edmund Storms wrote: >Just for your information Jed, my Forester, which is AWD, gets 25 mpg at >7000 ft in the city and over 28 mpg at 70 mph. That's still not as good on the highway as my '95 Volvo station wagon, which is a great hulking vehicle capable of carrying more stuff than most SUVs. Actually, it is rated at 30 mpg highway, but it does better when I'm driving. (Most SUVs have lots of room but very limited cargo capacity measured in weight, so people overload them without realizing it, and this causes accidents. Their brakes are particularly unsuited for heavy loads. See: "High And Mighty.") If I lived up north where there is snow I would get an AWD vehicle. My sister, who lives out in the middle of nowhere in Virginia, has something similar to the Forester. - Jed --=====================_12015328==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Edmund Storms wrote:

Just for your information Jed, my Forester, which is AWD, gets 25 mpg at 7000 ft in the city and over 28 mpg at 70 mph.

That's still not as good on the highway as my '95 Volvo station wagon, which is a great hulking vehicle capable of carrying more stuff than most SUVs. Actually, it is rated at 30 mpg highway, but it does better when I'm driving. (Most SUVs have lots of room but very limited cargo capacity measured in weight, so people overload them without realizing it, and this causes accidents. Their brakes are particularly unsuited for heavy loads. See: "High And Mighty.")

If I lived up north where there is snow I would get an AWD vehicle. My sister, who lives out in the middle of nowhere in Virginia, has something similar to the Forester.

- Jed
--=====================_12015328==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 14:18:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27MHIW1018653; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:18:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27MHDxu018576; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:17:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:17:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00fa01c52363$0bb6f000$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:14:19 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, > In the US the cost of litigation and medical care also push inflation, as > will the falling dollar due to debt financing and trade deficits. I was surprised to find out, when you do the breakdown, that the major cost component (except for new expensive drugs) of increased medical is "general inflation" i.e. the effects of oil pushing everything else up. And it is hard to eliminate the "demand" issue of consumerism i.e. when the average person demands more than is necessary (cosmetic surgery, for instance) the cost of which pushes everything else up. http://healthcare.pwc.com/cgi-local/hcregister.cgi?link=pdf/fuel.pdf. and of course, the "falling dollar" and trade deficits all point back to oil also. But my using the word "only" in the original post was certainly a dose of hyperbole. However, productivity gains have kept inflation much lower than it otherwise would be, so it is a small hyperbole. Bottom line is that gasoline "should" cost no more than 20 cents a gallon now, and that ten-fold jump has been the self-imposed **push** for almost everything else (which is not a demand issue); and consequently has disguised the real culprit to the naive analysis. To say that gasoline does not cost more in inflationary terms is a huge joke on the consumer. Gasoline is responsible for almost ALL of the increase, not in everything else as well as its own price. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 14:51:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27MnuW1002090; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:51:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27MnrCU002057; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:49:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:49:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Roomba as monster Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:49:49 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <422CC6CD.3080908 ix.netcom.com> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58375 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Indeed. Why not? The problem at the moment is Jed's pitch; it made me wet my pants, but from laughter rather than fear. Killer roombas and terrorist model airplanes just ain't cutting it fellas. I think if you want to implement Frank Grimers suggestion you need to start an actual development project complete with testing. If anyone minds, just tell them that LENR doesn't exist and what's to be concerned about? Whether you are successful or not, once you start testing I'll bet you get some attention.... K. -----Original Message----- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com] Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 4:26 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Roomba as monster Why not Horace? Most people who have the knowledge and equipment to implement such ideas can dream up many more designs than we can. In addition, they will have devices already made that we do not know about and these will be adapted. The purpose of making such primitive ideas public is to scare the crap out of people and get them to force the government of address the issue before it is too late. Right now, the government ignores cold fusion because it would cause an economic hit to all other energy sources. This is the only reason that makes sense, other than complete stupidity. Regards, Ed Horace Heffner wrote: > Good grief, Jed! In passing, I've thought of dozens of military uses for > CF. It makes no sense at all to make them public though. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 15:46:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27Nj7W1024634; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:46:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27Nj4H1024609; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:45:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:45:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <012401c5236f$54ad1b20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Debunked, or re-Bunked ? Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:42:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0121_01C5232C.461BFE20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0121_01C5232C.461BFE20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This month, from the science-version of the "National Enquirer" err... = at least it appears to that same mentality of magazine buyer... yes, you = know, the one we love to hate, "Popular Mechanics," we find the most = bizzaro debunking of all time.... I'm convinced this mag is attempting = to go to tongue-in-cheek humor, more like "Mad" than "Star" but just = hasn't quite got that craft down yet either. "9/11: Debunking The Myths" http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html =20 "PM examines the evidence and consults the experts to refute the most = persistent conspiracy theories of September 11." Call me doubtful about this magazine's grasp on what constitutes = "debunking"... and particularly since I do not buy into 99% of the myths = floating around anyway, but this is about the most lightweight debunking = treatment in recent memory.=20 For instance, the first comparative images, meant to explain the "pods" = shows two obviously different airplanes. Admittedly much of the BS = (missiles, etc) is pretty easy to debunk from just a logical standpoint = (what is the advantage of a missile with a hundred pound warhead when = you are carrying 200,000 pounds of jet fuel?) but nevertheless, PM gets = my vote for "fish wrap" journalism of the decade, once again. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0121_01C5232C.461BFE20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This month, from the science-version of the "National Enquirer" = err... at=20 least it appears to that same mentality of magazine buyer... yes, you = know, the=20 one we love to hate, "Popular Mechanics," we find the most bizzaro=20 debunking of all time.... I'm convinced this mag is attempting to go to=20 tongue-in-cheek humor, more like "Mad" than "Star" but just hasn't quite = got=20 that craft down yet either.
 
"9/11: Debunking The Myths"
htt= p://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html  =
"PM examines the evidence and consults the experts to refute the = most=20 persistent conspiracy theories of September 11."
 
Call me doubtful about this magazine's grasp on what constitutes=20 "debunking"... and particularly since I do not buy into 99% of the myths = floating around anyway, but this is about the most lightweight debunking = treatment in recent memory.
 
For instance, the first comparative images, meant to explain = the=20 "pods" shows two obviously different airplanes. Admittedly much of the = BS=20 (missiles, etc)  is pretty easy to debunk from just a logical=20 standpoint (what is the advantage of a missile with a hundred pound = warhead when=20 you are carrying 200,000 pounds of jet fuel?) but nevertheless, PM gets = my vote=20 for "fish wrap" journalism of the decade, once again.
 
Jones 
------=_NextPart_000_0121_01C5232C.461BFE20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 15:46:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27NjCW1024685; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:46:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27Nj94I024660; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:45:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:45:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050307175438.02b7fd10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 18:43:30 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Roomba as monster In-Reply-To: References: <422CC6CD.3080908 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <1oXGcC.A.MBG.EeOLCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >The problem at the moment is Jed's pitch; it made me >wet my pants, but from laughter rather than fear. >Killer roombas and terrorist model airplanes just >ain't cutting it fellas. It does sound comical, I admit. So did Billy Mitchell's proposal to drop bombs from biplanes onto navy ships in 1921. As Newton Backer, U.S. Sec. of War put it: "That idea is so damned nonsensical and impossible that I am willing to stand on the bridge of a battleship while that nitwit tries to hit it from the air." You have to remember, in 1921 biplanes were still rickety little canvas covered machines. In July 1921 Mitchell's aviators were allowed to attack the captured German battleship Ostfriesland, which was once considered "unsinkable." It sank within minutes. By the way, large model airplanes are dangerous even when unarmed. They have killed and severely injured people. They can easily fly at 100 mph easily. The record is around 200 mph. With unlimited CF power, you might just build one with a sharp steel bar sticking out in front, and spear people to death. It is much more dangerous than it sounds. I am not envisioning something that looks like a scaled-down model of an airplane -- which would indeed look comical -- but rather something like a javelin or shoulder launched missile, made of aluminum, painted black, with one or two 200-watt pusher engines. 200 watts is enough power to propel me, on my bicycle, at 15 mph. A 2 kg, 200 W small flying object would probably have enough momentum to kill someone on impact. Armed with 20 rounds of small ammunition or 100 grams of Sarin gas, or a hand grenade, such a machine could kill lots of people in a short time. The thing is: it would have *unlimited* range. That is a very difficult property to imagine, or come to terms with. You could launch thousands of these gadgets anywhere in the world, and they would show up anywhere else on earth within 12 days. If it did not find a victim the first day, it could keep hunting for days or weeks. If a few thousand of these things came bearing down on people at random everywhere, every day for nine months, the nation would be reduced to utter chaos. It could be much worse than, say, the Battle of Britain civilian casualties. Between Sept. 1940 and May 1941, the Luffwaffe attacked 127 times, killing 60,000 civilians and seriously injuring 87,000 (that's 9 months, and 471 deaths per attack). If you had a few hundred thousand of these gadgets, you could accomplish that in one day, or one week, or whatever span of time suited your agenda. There would be no risk to the attackers as long as their bases remained undiscovered, and I presume they would launch the weapons from hundreds of different locations around the world. The cost in men and equipment would be microscopic compared to what the Germans paid for the Blitz. Developing effective countermeasures would take months, possibly years, and I do not think the work could even be carried in the ensuing chaos. The cost of building these things would be *far* less than making a conventional nuclear bomb from scratch, and it would be much easier to hide the production facilities, or spread it out to hundreds of different factories in China and elsewhere. Perhaps you could even build a small jet engine, and go a lot faster, but I see no point to it. 100 mph is plenty fast. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 15:56:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j27NsjW1029038; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:56:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j27Nsfv3028983; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:54:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:54:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <012e01c52370$ac3215c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <422CC6CD.3080908 ix.netcom.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050307175438.02b7fd10@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Roomba as monster Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:52:07 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Perhaps you could even build a small jet engine, and go a lot faster, but I > see no point to it. 100 mph is plenty fast. How about a nanojet? http://www.wdv.com/Aerospace/NanoJet/ The point of it is not obvious, but is probably smoldering somewhere deep within side of a five-side building. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 16:28:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j280SCW1015929; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:28:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j280S9Si015905; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:28:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:28:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <3b3b7a92-20c3-444b-8a99-3fc428641ef6> Message-ID: <004401c5236a$0a32bcd0$046f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <18e501c521ae$86403c70$346f53d8 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <422A21E2.1000306@ix.netcom.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050307151051.02c37fe0@pop.mindspring.com> <422CBEFA.1060306@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Transistors, replication, and PAGD Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:03:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58379 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The discussion of replication of the PAGD technology is getting a bit wild. All I have said is that the efforts at replication by Jeff contain gross errors. There may be efforts by others which have similar mistakes. It does not follow that you have to do a war dance in a pointed hat to make it work, anymore than this was true in the early days of CF when the magic formula seemed so elusive. When someone follows the recipe in the patents, and the circuits given, and calibration means shown, and explores the glow discharge range indicated, and fails to see the PAGD discharge, then one can start mumbling about mysteries. It one sees the discharge, plenty of mysterious mumbling will follow. So far as I know no one has done this, they all do something different, and then talk about failure. To this point is Ed Storm's position that the effect originates in certain deposits on the surfaces of cathodes and loading of bulk palladium is irrelevant. Ed has not yet identified these, or shown how to make lots of cathodes. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 18:03:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2822uW1000669; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:02:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2822jHE000578; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:02:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:02:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <8533778.1110247360196.JavaMail.root wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:02:39 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Transistors, replication, and PAGD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike Carrell writes: > The discussion of replication of the PAGD technology is getting a bit wild. > All I have said is that the efforts at replication by Jeff contain gross > errors. That's true. But your messages also indicated there is a lot unexplained art in the PAGD, with things that the Correas do "simply because they work." Other people have said that, too. There is nothing wrong with that. Many industries and sciences are like that. Electrochemistry is full of protocols you have to "learn from the master." If the PAGD is like this, then it will probably need a hands-on teaching session before a replication works. > When someone follows the recipe in the patents, and the > circuits given, and calibration means shown, and explores the glow discharge > range indicated, and fails to see the PAGD discharge, then one can start > mumbling about mysteries. It one sees the discharge, plenty of mysterious > mumbling will follow. So far as I know no one has done this, they all do > something different, and then talk about failure. True again. And this is not fair to the Correas. > To this point is Ed Storm's position that the effect originates in certain > deposits on the surfaces of cathodes and loading of bulk palladium is > irrelevant. Ed has not yet identified these, or shown how to make lots of > cathodes. Touche. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 18:25:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j282OxW1008752; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:24:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j282Ouqs008728; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:24:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:24:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=fPn55DdMhkDnyllyd+aQgiusvc6jyjgpmldkngMCgpfn/kjF+XgX18ab7xeJorhSJAdHtrvvyKm5f962sAspgcus9Hi4g+DudnT82GvG5eJ5BaiZ6MKU34k/LzArXO/UtrF90LqpcdCFZZvmlTzBbvZ3KCjuDL3WP+6gSVcwEU8= ; Message-ID: <20050308022448.29670.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:24:47 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: University of Illinois Measures Bubble Temp To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Horace Heffner wrote: > The fusion > zone of the sun is > 10,000,000 deg. C. Do we know that the source of the sun's energy is fusion? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 18:33:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j282XLW1011721; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:33:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j282XHXt011688; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:33:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:33:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <422D0ECB.2000908 cox.net> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 19:32:43 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: University of Illinois Measures Bubble Temp References: <20050308022448.29670.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Of course not -- see http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/sunpart1.htm http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/sunpart2.htm Since it's obvious that the heavy elements migrate toward the center, it is "fission" of the heavy elements providing the energy. Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US Terry Blanton wrote: >--- Horace Heffner wrote: > >>The fusion >>zone of the sun is >>10,000,000 deg. C. >> > >Do we know that the source of the sun's energy is fusion? > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 20:12:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j284BoW1017802; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:11:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j284BkNr017778; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:11:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:11:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 19:12:15 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Roomba as monster Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:37 PM 3/7/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: >The only danger is that the potential for harm and terrorism does *not* >circulate, and people in free countries remain ignorant of what might >happen. If people everywhere realize how CF might be used to make terror >weapons, then we can develop it first and make CF powered devices (plus >conventionally powered ones) to counter the threat and intercept the terror >weapons. If the U.S. decision makers go on thinking that CF does not exist, >while well-financed terrorist researchers discover ways to make CF work, >THEN we will be in huge trouble. I feel fairly certain a countermeasures approach is ultimately not feasible. I suspect you have not thought far enough ahead. The only feasible long term approach to advanced technology in terrorist hands probably is: (a) Establish world government (b) Disarm everyone (c) Permit access to technology development information, tools and materials only under license and regular inspections. Items (a) and (b) probably will require a world war. I see no need to hurry all this along. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 21:56:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j285uFW1022012; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:56:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j285u9Go021966; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:56:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:56:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:56:32 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: University of Illinois Measures Bubble Temp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:32 PM 3/7/5, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: >Of course not -- see > > >http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/sunpart1.htm >http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/sunpart2.htm > > >Since it's obvious that the heavy elements migrate toward the center, it is >"fission" of the heavy elements providing the energy. > >Hoyt Stearns >Scottsdale, Arizona US Maybe some, but certainly not all. For example, there are plenty of stars around made of material not yet in a supernova. These stars don't have fissionable material. The conditions on the sun should produce significant fusion, and there is a significant amount of neutrinos that evidence such fusion - though a portion is indeed "missing". Missing due to fission, or oscillating neutrinos? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 21:56:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j285uDW1022006; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:56:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j285u0xO021874; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:56:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:56:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:56:29 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: University of Illinois Measures Bubble Temp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:24 PM 3/7/5, Terry Blanton wrote: >--- Horace Heffner wrote: > >> The fusion >> zone of the sun is >> 10,000,000 deg. C. > >Do we know that the source of the sun's energy is fusion? I think we know that a most of it is. That's pretty much irrelevant to the original issue of whether sonoluminescence can be used to create fusion, i.e. whether the bubble temperature is hot enough, and how it compares to the sun. It certainly is true that at least a significant portion of the sun's energy comes from fusion, and that 15,000 Deg. C is not hot enough to pull that off, nor is it 4 times the temperature of the sun where such fusion occurs. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 7 22:31:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j286VZW1001171; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:31:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j286VVbt001146; Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:31:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:31:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Roomba as monster Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:33:12 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <422CC6CD.3080908 ix.netcom.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I agree with Horace. Why give basic creativity the advantage of years of experience or implantation knowledge. There is such a thing as "planting a seed". While there is little doubt to the sincere altruism of the regular contributors, the same can not be said for all the lurkers. Consequently a certain level of restraint should always be exercised. Growing up, my brother, me, and my cousin represented quite the triumvirate of mischief. My cousin typically thought up a plan, I had a knack for creatively enhancing it to it's full potential, and my brother could usually be talked into implementing it. The overall impact was soooooo much less when I was unavailable to participate. The will and the means can only get you so far. Creativity is always the exponential catalyst... 8^) -john -----Original Message----- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com] Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 3:26 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Roomba as monster Why not Horace? Most people who have the knowledge and equipment to implement such ideas can dream up many more designs than we can. In addition, they will have devices already made that we do not know about and these will be adapted. The purpose of making such primitive ideas public is to scare the crap out of people and get them to force the government of address the issue before it is too late. Right now, the government ignores cold fusion because it would cause an economic hit to all other energy sources. This is the only reason that makes sense, other than complete stupidity. Regards, Ed Horace Heffner wrote: > Good grief, Jed! In passing, I've thought of dozens of military uses for > CF. It makes no sense at all to make them public though. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.4 - Release Date: 05/03/07 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 00:24:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j288OkW1006305; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:24:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j288Og5N006280; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:24:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:24:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 23:24:56 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:14 PM 3/7/5, Jones Beene wrote: >Horace, > >> In the US the cost of litigation and medical care also >push inflation, as >> will the falling dollar due to debt financing and trade >deficits. > > >I was surprised to find out, when you do the breakdown, that >the major cost component (except for new expensive drugs) of >increased medical is "general inflation" i.e. the effects of >oil pushing everything else up. And it is hard to eliminate >the "demand" issue of consumerism i.e. when the average >person demands more than is necessary (cosmetic surgery, for >instance) the cost of which pushes everything else up. > > >http://healthcare.pwc.com/cgi-local/hcregister.cgi?link=pdf/fuel.pdf. > The above article appears to support *my* position. It says only 13.7 percent of the increase in medical costs is attributable to inflation. That means medical costs increased 86.3 percent over and above inflation. Medical costs are a major contributor to inflation. The article states that in 1980 medical costs consumed 8.8 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP). In 2000 it consumed 13.2 percent. That is a powerful relative growth, which is not inflation biased. It also states damages due to malpractice are "skyrocketing." Although litigation is only responsible for about 7 percent of the increase in cost, it is growing rapidly. The article stated that the median malpractice award grew 43 percent in 2000 alone. In the 1960's I never had any problem obtaining health insurance, or gave it much thought. Today, it is difficult for most young people to obtain any at all, or to afford it if available. When you add in nursing home insurance costs, which are out of sight, audio, visual, and dental insurance, and the cost of medical riders on auto insurance, medical care is a major expense for many families today even if they are well. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 06:50:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28EoWW1027102; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 06:50:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28EoP29027021; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 06:50:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 06:50:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308091402.02bbe690 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 09:50:12 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Health care costs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It may be that malpractice insurance and unnecessary tests are inflating medical costs, but the largest cause of skyrocketing costs is quite clear: medicine is much more effective than it used to be. Countless diseases and conditions that could not be treated in the past can now be cured or ameliorated. When President Kennedy's newborn son died on August 9, 1963, the hospital bill was only a few hundred dollars because there was nothing the doctors could do. Nowadays, the disease can be treated but the cost is tens of thousands of dollars. All of my grandparents and great-grandparents died at home in the care of their relatives at little or no expense from diseases that could not be treated, such as diabetes. Nowadays they would all be treated in a hospital and the cost would run to hundreds of thousands of dollars. Most medical expenses are incurred in the last few years of life. I myself think it is unwise to spend huge amounts of money extending the life of old people who will die in a few years anyway. Perhaps I will feel differently when I am old! On the other hand, my parents and grandparents steadfastly refused heroic treatments, and they made it abundantly clear they would never countenance being hooked up to machines. Despite that, my parents care in the 1990s cost a great deal of money -- much more than it would have in the 1960s or 20s. Incidentally, there is a recent popular movie that portrays a scene in a hospital in which the doctors refuse to turn off a machine and let a patient die. This is complete nonsense. If the patient is conscious and demands that treatment be withdrawn, the doctors must comply, by law. I have seen it happen, and the doctors made no objection whatever. I have also seen them agree to do nothing more for comatose patients who were dying at home. There were no objections and no pressure whenever -- at least not in Maryland or Georgia. The county did send around a sympathetic nurse who checked the dying patient and wrote down the particulars, such as date of birth, treating physician, disease et cetera, and made some helpful suggestions. It was low-key, sensible, sad but not frightening. Some people demand extraordinary treatment for terminal patients, which I think drives up costs and causes unnecessary suffering. In my opinion these people should come to grips with their own fear of death, and grow up. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 06:51:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28EpjW1027894; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 06:51:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28EpdRH027855; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 06:51:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 06:51:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c523ee$2e4b42c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 06:50:32 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, > The above article appears to support *my* position... The article states > that in 1980 medical costs consumed 8.8 percent of the gross domestic > product (GDP). In 2000 it consumed 13.2 percent. I don't think you read it carefully. If you pay attention to the details in this and other analyses, and compare apples to apples then the ~4.5 % bigger chuck of GNP over the past 20 years is mostly due to either "general inflation" (oil-push) or to "consumerism" items that were not available in 1980, and litigation, which you mentioned, but mostly to several new generations of very expensive drugs, some of limited value relative to cost, and a wide range of discretionary service, such as cosmetic surgery and especially cosmetic dentistry which isn't even called cosmetic, better prenatal care, much more extensive testing (MRI etc). Comparing the services which were available then and now, it would suggest that there has been an actual decrease in medical cost, due to productivity gains and such things as lower duration hospital stays. In contrast with oil and petrochemicals, where there is no "consumerism" such as no better fuel choices etc. "medical" is far different as far as being inflationary. There is no doubt that it takes a bigger chunk, but most of that chunk is "voluntary" as it is a consumer issue, or for new services, not-previously available or for new services deemed necessary. But oil, in marked contrast, has pushed everything else up as lagging inflation and it is the very same old stinkin' product. Consequently none of the other increase would have happened at all (except the "consumer choice" issues and the improved products), but the ridiculous litigation expense (which must be limited somehow) had it not been for oil and petrochemicals as the prime instigator. You cannot blame the high cost of medical on the same type of base-push inflation, when the "big items" which all of us end-up paying for, which benefit the few, such things as cosmetic surgery, and new drugs, some of which like viagra, are not necessary for health, or drugs of marginal benefit, which are taken by millions - like statins. When you ending up paying for several million people taking statin at $600 per year per consumer, when fish oil + aspirin at $75 year does almost as well in comparative testing, then this is not exactly the same kind of inflation as in other segments of the economy (and I am not suggesting that statins should not be taken, only that they are a very poor value, and that it is a "choice" issue).... Consequently when there is no choice, and everyone is forced to pay arbitrary OPEC/petrol-mafia style price increases for the same unimproved item, things are FAR different for comparison purposes. There are very few inflationary items in our economy that have the same basic inflationary **push** as oil - it all starts with oil and petrochemicals. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 07:24:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28FOSW1008712; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:24:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28FOEhR008637; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:24:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:24:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308095726.02bbdee0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 10:23:46 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Roomba as monster In-Reply-To: References: <422CC6CD.3080908 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_74524203==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_74524203==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed John Steck wrote: >I agree with Horace. Why give basic creativity the advantage of years of >experience or implantation knowledge. There is such a thing as "planting a >seed". While there is little doubt to the sincere altruism of the regular >contributors, the same can not be said for all the lurkers. Consequently a >certain level of restraint should always be exercised. Widespread speculation about weapons applications for cold fusion began in March 1989. It is inconceivable that terrorists and criminals have not already considered everything I came up with -- and more. I truly believe that the only danger we face is that we will not take any of these threats seriously until it is too late. This debate reminds me of the Introduction to the classic book "How To Lie With Statistics:" "This book is a sort of primer in ways to use statistics to deceive. It may seem altogether too much like a manual for swindlers. Perhaps I can justify it in the manner of the retired burglar whose published reminiscences amounted to a graduate course in how to pick a lock and muffle a footfall: The crooks already know these tricks; honest men must learn them in self-defense." Horace Heffner wrote: > I feel fairly certain a countermeasures approach is ultimately not > feasible. I suspect you have not thought far enough ahead. The only > feasible long term approach to advanced technology in terrorist hands > probably is: > > (a) Establish world government I disagree. Perhaps it does not mean much, but I can dream up countermeasures as easily as I invented the problem in the first place. Of course the countermeasures would not be perfect, anymore than our defenses against conventional crime are. Some people would certainly be killed, but I think if we had a couple of years to prepare for an attack of Roomba monsters, we could stop 90% of them, and track them back to their sources. Conventional equipment such as radars could be adjusted to detect such small aircraft effectively, and if our side also had CF, we could make small drones that seek out and destroy the incoming aircraft, or continuously patrol remote areas at a low altitude searching for launches. Also, our intelligence agencies would be on the alert for someone ordering a hundred thousand peculiar looking aluminum tubes with wings. Actually, this discussion is not entirely imaginary. I happen to know some pilots here at Peachtree Dekalb Airport, including one who is fond of RC models. He knows someone who alerted the authorities when a ring of drug smugglers used large RC model airplanes to bring drugs into Florida from boats several miles out in the Atlantic. They flew them into a large net mounted on the roof of an apartment in the dead of night. It is not as difficult as it sounds. I think the airplanes were destroyed, but the payload was worth tens of thousands of dollars. - Jed --=====================_74524203==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" John Steck wrote:

I agree with Horace.  Why give basic creativity the advantage of years of
experience or implantation knowledge.  There is such a thing as "planting a
seed".  While there is little doubt to the sincere altruism of the regular
contributors, the same can not be said for all the lurkers.  Consequently a
certain level of restraint should always be exercised.

Widespread speculation about weapons applications for cold fusion began in March 1989. It is inconceivable that terrorists and criminals have not already considered everything I came up with -- and more. I truly believe that the only danger we face is that we will not take any of these threats seriously until it is too late.

This debate reminds me of the Introduction to the classic book "How To Lie With Statistics:"

"This book is a sort of primer in ways to use statistics to deceive. It may seem altogether too much like a manual for swindlers. Perhaps I can justify it in the manner of the retired burglar whose published reminiscences amounted to a graduate course in how to pick a lock and muffle a footfall: The crooks already know these tricks; honest men must learn them in self-defense."


Horace Heffner wrote:

> I feel fairly certain a countermeasures approach is ultimately not
> feasible.  I suspect you have not thought far enough ahead. The only
> feasible long term approach to advanced technology in terrorist hands
> probably is:
>
> (a) Establish world government

I disagree. Perhaps it does not mean much, but I can dream up countermeasures as easily as I invented the problem in the first place. Of course the countermeasures would not be perfect, anymore than our defenses against conventional crime are. Some people would certainly be killed, but I think if we had a couple of years to prepare for an attack of Roomba monsters, we could stop 90% of them, and track them back to their sources. Conventional equipment such as radars could be adjusted to detect such small aircraft effectively, and if our side also had CF, we could make small drones that seek out and destroy the incoming aircraft, or continuously patrol remote areas at a low altitude searching for launches. Also, our intelligence agencies would be on the alert for someone ordering a hundred thousand peculiar looking aluminum tubes with wings.

Actually, this discussion is not entirely imaginary. I happen to know some pilots here at Peachtree Dekalb Airport, including one who is fond of RC models. He knows someone who alerted the authorities when a ring of drug smugglers used large RC model airplanes to bring drugs into Florida from boats several miles out in the Atlantic. They flew them into a large net mounted on the roof of an apartment in the dead of night. It is not as difficult as it sounds. I think the airplanes were destroyed, but the payload was worth tens of thousands of dollars.

- Jed
 --=====================_74524203==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 07:44:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28Fi9W1020527; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:44:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28Fhprv020381; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:43:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:43:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 06:44:14 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Roomba as monster Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:23 AM 3/8/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: >I disagree. Perhaps it does not mean much, but I can dream up >countermeasures as easily as I invented the problem in the first place. Of >course the countermeasures would not be perfect, anymore than our defenses >against conventional crime are. Some people would certainly be killed, but >I think if we had a couple of years to prepare for an attack of Roomba >monsters, we could stop 90% of them, and track them back to their sources. I'll just say it again. You haven't thought this through far enough. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 07:44:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28FiLW1020619; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:44:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28Fi8TF020519; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:44:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:44:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 06:44:11 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:50 AM 3/8/5, Jones Beene wrote: [snip] >When you ending >up paying for several million people taking statin at $600 >per year per consumer, when fish oil + aspirin at $75 year >does almost as well in comparative testing, then this is not >exactly the same kind of inflation as in other segments of >the economy (and I am not suggesting that statins should not >be taken, only that they are a very poor value, and that it >is a "choice" issue).... Consequently when there is no >choice, and everyone is forced to pay arbitrary >OPEC/petrol-mafia style price increases for the same >unimproved item, things are FAR different for comparison >purposes. You can make the same argument about the price of a cup of coffee. However, inflation is inflation. >There are very few inflationary items in our economy that >have the same basic inflationary **push** as oil - it all >starts with oil and petrochemicals. I think it starts with government creating or printing money it doesn't have, whether that money is created for the pupose of paying more money for medical care, petroleum, weapons or replacing a tax base lost to overseas manufacturing. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 08:23:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28GNRW1009058; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:23:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28GNFBv008985; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:23:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:23:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004101c523fa$f0aea260$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Roomba as monster Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:21:52 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > HH: The only feasible long term approach to advanced technology in terrorist hands probably is: > (a) Establish world government > (b) Disarm everyone > (c) Permit access to technology development information, tools and materials only under license and regular inspections. You may have missed the only real solution, which does involve technology - in the sense of being forced into every individual... to be explained. This theme of dealing with deep-rooted pernicious terrorism has actually been explored quite often in film, "Brazil" "1984", "The minority Report" and "A Clockwork Orange" including the **real** solution to the problem of terrorism (or 'ultraviolence' for its own sake), if you are a Kubrick/Burgess fan. Terry Gilliam's "Brazil" is the a cult classic - a surreal nightmare, demented and bizarre, but it can has a quirky charm, set amidst constant terrorist explosions, so that you can't decide whether or not you are supposed to be frightened or sympathetic... especially given the behind-the-scenes level of torture, used to ferret out the dissidents. Of course, by the time the nightmare is revealed, we know that it is even scarier because it was masqueraded as a friendly facade, but the reality is far more unpleasant for what has really happened in this alternative universe, as in the opening scenes of the Matrix. Or we can take mind-control to another level, like what is experienced by publishing tycoon David Aames in "Vanilla Sky"... who, like Sam Lowry, your work-a-day "Brazilian" (and "Neo") wants to get out of the terrible nightmare, but none can bring himself to wake up with out some help. Lowry/Aames dream about a certain girl in elaborate and breath taking dream sequences, Cruise-over-Cruz, so to speak... and the dreams have a story-line of their own, which take most viewers away from the real plot, but what is ever "real" and what is imagined? And, futhermore, does this delusion usually come at state expense? Orwell's 1984, but it is more of a grim post-apocalyptic, co ntrol-utopia nightmare vision, and there is no doubt about the issue of state-expense and level of control. But I think the solution in all cases is related to an evolutionary "improvement" of state-sponsored imposed mind-control. We may be living at the only juncture in human history where some degree of true freedom is temporarily available, and if we loose it, that will be due to the "excuse" (real or imagined) of terrorism. Stalin, the master of brutal control, remarked that religion is the opiate of the masses, but implied that no drug was enough... and that was largely correct for several thousand years, until his imposed brutalism supplanted religion as a control method. Which can, in other circumstances, also be supplanted by **Television** the Prozac of the masses - at least in certain cultures where prosperity is overflowing - and TV took over as the drug-of-choice in many places, for a while, but it is too diluted for the task of mind-control when it goes up against either ingrained poverty... or lese the dark side of religion, distorted for political purposes. Terrorism pretty much depends on religious-like zeal being implanted in young impressionable minds, or else extreme poverty, and to counter that, you must employ something of equal or greater strength. The torture/mind control images in "Brazil" and "A Clockwork Orange" are so shocking, that the deterrence effect of them alone would seem to be enough, but I think that ultimately even brutality is not enough and it will demand a higher level of mind-control than either torture or religion or the strongest of drugs even. I'm surprised Horace and Jed did not focus on what will probably be the only real control-level answer to terror in our fast-approaching future. It has been explored also in film, going back to "The Manchurian Candidate" and a long legacy of follow-on film, ah yes, the ultimate solution - the brain implant ... but I don't want to spoil the fun of revealing the more modern details for anyone who hasn't seen and understood the ultimate solution to terrorism. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 08:28:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28GSQW1010943; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:28:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28GSMvv010915; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:28:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:28:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004d01c523fb$a9534fa0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:27:02 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace > I think it starts with government creating or printing money it doesn't have... On that even more basic level of inflation, we both agree... ... and probably you too understand why a warped but updated version of the Wizard of Oz has a little more than passing relevance to the current situation. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 08:31:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28GUMW9011706; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:31:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28Ftfov027758; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:55:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:55:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308105053.02c12800 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 10:55:12 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Roomba as monster In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_76420984==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_76420984==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Horace Heffner wrote: >I'll just say it again. You haven't thought this through far enough. I do not see how a world government would be any better at dealing with terrorist threats than national governments are. On the contrary, if a world government resembles the emerging E.U. government, it will be less capable. To get a sense of how bogged down the E.U. is already, consider that the proposed E.U. constitution is 500 pages long! That's hopeless. - Jed --=====================_76420984==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Horace Heffner wrote:

I'll just say it again.  You haven't thought this through far enough.

I do not see how a world government would be any better at dealing with terrorist threats than national governments are. On the contrary, if a world government resembles the emerging E.U. government, it will be less capable. To get a sense of how bogged down the E.U. is already, consider that the proposed E.U. constitution is 500 pages long! That's hopeless.

- Jed
 --=====================_76420984==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 08:41:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28GfaW1017646; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:41:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28Gexlq017385; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:40:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:40:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Roomba as monster Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:41:50 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <81ZkYC.A.bPE.XWdLCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John, Yet that is precisely what is being suggested, planting the seed. Jed loves his historical ref's; in this case one giant glaring one comes to mind. It was pretty well understand by the beginning of WWII that atomic energy was possible, although whether it could be made into a practical energy source was in question ( just a step beyond where LENR is now ) Only after the first public debut of atomic energy ( the utter destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki ) was it generally acknowledged that fission energy could be practical. So yes; to travel down the path of Fear to the new energy technology will require the promotion and (possible) creation of an instrument of mass destruction. I certainly don't recommend this path; but I see the wisdom of Franks suggestion. This may seem like a real karmic headbanger yet even with the introduction of a benign form of the new energy technology, someone will come along and make a weapon from it. Primates can't help themselves in this regard; it's hardwired into their brains. Please reconsider the path of Seduction. K. -----Original Message----- From: John Steck [mailto:johnsteck tetrahelix.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 1:33 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Roomba as monster I agree with Horace. Why give basic creativity the advantage of years of experience or implantation knowledge. There is such a thing as "planting a seed". While there is little doubt to the sincere altruism of the regular contributors, the same can not be said for all the lurkers. Consequently a certain level of restraint should always be exercised. Growing up, my brother, me, and my cousin represented quite the triumvirate of mischief. My cousin typically thought up a plan, I had a knack for creatively enhancing it to it's full potential, and my brother could usually be talked into implementing it. The overall impact was soooooo much less when I was unavailable to participate. The will and the means can only get you so far. Creativity is always the exponential catalyst... 8^) -john -----Original Message----- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com] Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 3:26 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Roomba as monster Why not Horace? Most people who have the knowledge and equipment to implement such ideas can dream up many more designs than we can. In addition, they will have devices already made that we do not know about and these will be adapted. The purpose of making such primitive ideas public is to scare the crap out of people and get them to force the government of address the issue before it is too late. Right now, the government ignores cold fusion because it would cause an economic hit to all other energy sources. This is the only reason that makes sense, other than complete stupidity. Regards, Ed Horace Heffner wrote: > Good grief, Jed! In passing, I've thought of dozens of military uses for > CF. It makes no sense at all to make them public though. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.4 - Release Date: 05/03/07 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 09:20:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28HKTW1003152; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:20:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28HKBED002958; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:20:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:20:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308115401.02bf4e28 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:19:56 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Roomba as monster In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_81493234==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_81493234==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Keith Nagel wrote: >to mind. It was pretty well understand by the beginning of >WWII that atomic energy was possible, although whether it >could be made into a practical energy source was in question >( just a step beyond where LENR is now ) Only after the >first public debut of atomic energy ( the utter destruction of >Hiroshima and Nagasaki ) was it generally acknowledged that fission >energy could be practical. As far as I know, after 1939 all experts worldwide understood that fission was a real potential source of energy. Leading Japanese physicists had no doubt about it, and they were not surprised when the U.S. used nuclear weapons. Within a few months after the war they secretly analyzed the fallout and other physical evidence and then circulated detailed reports describing the bomb. (These reports were kept secret for decades; the occupation authorities had no idea how much the Japanese government and science establishment knew.) It is impossible to run history over again, but even if there had been no war I expect fission reactors would have been developed soon. The U. Chicago reactor was not all that difficult or expensive to make, and in peacetime the details of its construction would soon have become known worldwide. The bomb was much more difficult. >So yes; to travel down the path of Fear to the new energy >technology will require the promotion and (possible) creation >of an instrument of mass destruction. Well, the fear may help motivate some people, given this so-called war on terror, but 90% of the appeal is positive. My book is mostly positive. We should emphasize all the good things CF can bring, and not worry too much about the risks. As long as we are prepared, most risks can be neutralized. I think CF is much less risky than U fission -- or fossil fuel, for that matter. Terrorists and criminals are clever, but so are the people who oppose them. The good guys vastly outnumber the bad guys, and you should never underestimate them or sell them short. Yesterday Standing Bear correctly pointed out that there are courageous people everywhere, and civilization is a lot more resilient than it seems. I agree, of course. But even extraordinarily brave and resourceful people can be overwhelmed by a small "temporal gap" in technology. The British people and the RAF were magnificent in 1940, but if the Germans could have magically reached 10 years into the future and armed themselves with 1950s radar, guidance systems, jet aircraft, missiles, or nuclear weapons, Britain would have been overwhelmed in a week. - Jed --=====================_81493234==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Keith Nagel wrote:

to mind. It was pretty well understand by the beginning of
WWII that atomic energy was possible, although whether it
could be made into a practical energy source was in question
( just a step beyond where LENR is now ) Only after the
first public debut of atomic energy ( the utter destruction of
Hiroshima and Nagasaki ) was it generally acknowledged that fission
energy could be practical.

As far as I know, after 1939 all experts worldwide understood that fission was a real potential source of energy. Leading Japanese physicists had no doubt about it, and they were not surprised when the U.S. used nuclear weapons. Within a few months after the war they secretly analyzed the fallout and other physical evidence and then circulated detailed reports describing the bomb. (These reports were kept secret for decades; the occupation authorities had no idea how much the Japanese government and science establishment knew.)

It is impossible to run history over again, but even if there had been no war I expect fission reactors would have been developed soon. The U. Chicago reactor was not all that difficult or expensive to make, and in peacetime the details of its construction would soon have become known worldwide. The bomb was much more difficult.


So yes; to travel down the path of Fear to the new energy
technology will require the promotion and (possible) creation
of an instrument of mass destruction.

Well, the fear may help motivate some people, given this so-called war on terror, but 90% of the appeal is positive. My book is mostly positive. We should emphasize all the good things CF can bring, and not worry too much about the risks. As long as we are prepared, most risks can be neutralized. I think CF is much less risky than U fission -- or fossil fuel, for that matter.

Terrorists and criminals are clever, but so are the people who oppose them. The good guys vastly outnumber the bad guys, and you should never underestimate them or sell them short. Yesterday Standing Bear correctly pointed out that there are courageous people everywhere, and civilization is a lot more resilient than it seems. I agree, of course. But even extraordinarily brave and resourceful people can be overwhelmed by a small "temporal gap" in technology. The British people and the RAF were magnificent in 1940, but if the Germans could have magically reached 10 years into the future and armed themselves with 1950s radar, guidance systems, jet aircraft, missiles, or nuclear weapons, Britain would have been overwhelmed in a week.

- Jed
 --=====================_81493234==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 09:32:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28HVjW1008199; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:31:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28HVgaq008168; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:31:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:31:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=il2MDkeWBy83XAju/NN8PvAgFpmsruWeebqoHlzbH5Ej6iWnS753qJRuU6WPT9qmaCulti8TDXwS+m2GKakGJ4U+tCI2xvsT8PJAtZtfdhRWeeNrWrpGCvPfi7GVajdOL2v0S4gsg+r305ZUB9CCnKwTGgiTyai17ZLEtzu+X30= ; Message-ID: <20050308173132.10248.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:31:31 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Roomba as monster To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <004101c523fa$f0aea260$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1623736884-1110303091=:6471" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1623736884-1110303091=:6471 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii There are many who believe this is already underway. Google 'implant' and 'milab' for returns like this one: http://www.alienjigsaw.com/yk2/milab.html One other point, nationalism is a dinosaur which must ultimately succumb to a unified world. If there *is* a Galactic Federation, we will never be invited in until we can speak with one voice. Jones Beene wrote: ah yes, the ultimate solution - the brain implant ... but I don't want to spoil the fun of revealing the more modern details for anyone who hasn't seen and understood the ultimate solution to terrorism. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --0-1623736884-1110303091=:6471 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
There are many who believe this is already underway.  Google 'implant' and 'milab' for returns like this one:
 
 
One other point, nationalism is a dinosaur which must ultimately succumb to a unified world.  If there *is* a Galactic Federation, we will never be invited in until we can speak with one voice.

Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:
 ah yes, the ultimate solution -
the brain implant ... but I don't want to spoil the fun of
revealing the more modern details for anyone who hasn't seen
and understood the ultimate solution to terrorism.

Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --0-1623736884-1110303091=:6471-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 09:58:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28HwfW1019657; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:58:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28Hwca5019623; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:58:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:58:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Roomba as monster Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:59:51 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308115401.02bf4e28 pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <-Dem2.A.fyE.NfeLCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well just about all experts agree the global warming is real, yet it too doesn't exist. I'm beginning to see a theme developing here... When the US government started down the path to Hiroshima, all the books about atomic energy were pulled from the public libraries. I suspect the official position on AE would be somewhat recognizable to LENR researchers today. I really doubt there is such a weaponization program now; but it is funny how similar the situations are. If there was any serious work done before the war to make an energy source it was certainly discouraged after the bomb project began. The Germans certainly weren't shy about weapons development, and they funded any number of crazy projects with less chance of working. Apparently new information has surfaced that they experimented with dirty bombs towards the end of the war. But no fission bomb as such. It was claimed that German scientists discouraged such work but I don't think such claims would have been made had the Germans won. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 12:20 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: RE: Roomba as monster Keith Nagel wrote: to mind. It was pretty well understand by the beginning of WWII that atomic energy was possible, although whether it could be made into a practical energy source was in question ( just a step beyond where LENR is now ) Only after the first public debut of atomic energy ( the utter destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki ) was it generally acknowledged that fission energy could be practical. As far as I know, after 1939 all experts worldwide understood that fission was a real potential source of energy. Leading Japanese physicists had no doubt about it, and they were not surprised when the U.S. used nuclear weapons. Within a few months after the war they secretly analyzed the fallout and other physical evidence and then circulated detailed reports describing the bomb. (These reports were kept secret for decades; the occupation authorities had no idea how much the Japanese government and science establishment knew.) It is impossible to run history over again, but even if there had been no war I expect fission reactors would have been developed soon. The U. Chicago reactor was not all that difficult or expensive to make, and in peacetime the details of its construction would soon have become known worldwide. The bomb was much more difficult. So yes; to travel down the path of Fear to the new energy technology will require the promotion and (possible) creation of an instrument of mass destruction. Well, the fear may help motivate some people, given this so-called war on terror, but 90% of the appeal is positive. My book is mostly positive. We should emphasize all the good things CF can bring, and not worry too much about the risks. As long as we are prepared, most risks can be neutralized. I think CF is much less risky than U fission -- or fossil fuel, for that matter. Terrorists and criminals are clever, but so are the people who oppose them. The good guys vastly outnumber the bad guys, and you should never underestimate them or sell them short. Yesterday Standing Bear correctly pointed out that there are courageous people everywhere, and civilization is a lot more resilient than it seems. I agree, of course. But even extraordinarily brave and resourceful people can be overwhelmed by a small "temporal gap" in technology. The British people and the RAF were magnificent in 1940, but if the Germans could have magically reached 10 years into the future and armed themselves with 1950s radar, guidance systems, jet aircraft, missiles, or nuclear weapons, Britain would have been overwhelmed in a week. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 10:44:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28IhpW1009900; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:43:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28IhjGW009851; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:43:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:43:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=UjCbClb+txgfzCn4ZwkIFRpANARl9z6PQ3M7RmelWEYR63bfDV7SuhX3TjyhsRt8ejK01lrZGjPDUKGx9LUbi+sm5uWq/2eOb7D1xofgtcYlNsJT6BTcTZ6XSGuTo6ue1UTILcaNH8hALnskiXBXhZLqd7UdgRa2J9Sfcc7CG/4= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:43:33 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Health care costs In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308091402.02bbe690 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308091402.02bbe690 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j28IhbW1009784 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: its true that there is more treatment available, but heres the thing. its NOT that expensive. an average 10k dollar surgery actually costs, in terms of materials and salarya and other overhead, maybe 1500. there is a MASSIVE price increase, because, well, pay or die. and as medical care as we know it has a monopoly on modern healthcare, thats not about to change. (same thing with medical malpractice insurance. the rise in rates charged to doctors matches the rise in salary, benefits, and stock dividends. they charge more, simply becuase they can) On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 09:50:12 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > It may be that malpractice insurance and unnecessary tests are inflating > medical costs, but the largest cause of skyrocketing costs is quite clear: > medicine is much more effective than it used to be. Countless diseases and > conditions that could not be treated in the past can now be cured or > ameliorated. When President Kennedy's newborn son died on August 9, 1963, > the hospital bill was only a few hundred dollars because there was nothing > the doctors could do. Nowadays, the disease can be treated but the cost is > tens of thousands of dollars. All of my grandparents and great-grandparents > died at home in the care of their relatives at little or no expense from > diseases that could not be treated, such as diabetes. Nowadays they would > all be treated in a hospital and the cost would run to hundreds of > thousands of dollars. > > Most medical expenses are incurred in the last few years of life. I myself > think it is unwise to spend huge amounts of money extending the life of old > people who will die in a few years anyway. Perhaps I will feel differently > when I am old! On the other hand, my parents and grandparents steadfastly > refused heroic treatments, and they made it abundantly clear they would > never countenance being hooked up to machines. Despite that, my parents > care in the 1990s cost a great deal of money -- much more than it would > have in the 1960s or 20s. > > Incidentally, there is a recent popular movie that portrays a scene in a > hospital in which the doctors refuse to turn off a machine and let a > patient die. This is complete nonsense. If the patient is conscious and > demands that treatment be withdrawn, the doctors must comply, by law. I > have seen it happen, and the doctors made no objection whatever. I have > also seen them agree to do nothing more for comatose patients who were > dying at home. There were no objections and no pressure whenever -- at > least not in Maryland or Georgia. The county did send around a sympathetic > nurse who checked the dying patient and wrote down the particulars, such as > date of birth, treating physician, disease et cetera, and made some helpful > suggestions. It was low-key, sensible, sad but not frightening. Some people > demand extraordinary treatment for terminal patients, which I think drives > up costs and causes unnecessary suffering. In my opinion these people > should come to grips with their own fear of death, and grow up. > > - Jed > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 10:50:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28IoJW1013703; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:50:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28IoGpa013631; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:50:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:50:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008101c5240f$7b91f6c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050308173132.10248.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Roomba as monster Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:48:55 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <5sDDgD.A.wUD.lPfLCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Blanton > There are many who believe this is already underway. Google 'implant' and 'milab' for returns like this one: > > http://www.alienjigsaw.com/yk2/milab.html Also, note the steady advance (and "hot stock" picks) in the field called RFID. Applying Moore's law to this field, it should not take long before passports, driver's licenses, birth certificates, SS numbers, medical histories,etc are passé... as well as solving the problem of "anti-social" tendencies such as suicide, depression, murder and other crimes, and of course terrorism ... all of these and more are quelled by one simple and very cheap expedient - mass produced by the billions. Under the guise of anti-terrorism, and/or anti-crime, within a short time (shorter than you can imagine) we will be implanted, starting with children (via painless injection at birth) with a nano-computer/transmitter/controller. What parent would not want the perfect solution to prevent kidnapping, SIDS, even crying? Ah, yes... the idyllic future utopia... no crime, no terror, no political dissent, no problemo? Well, at least its better than the tank-containment situation, seen at the beginning of "The Matrix" ... or is it? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 11:31:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28JVFW1004593; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:31:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28JV5uj004517; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:31:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:31:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308135830.02bfef68 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:30:30 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Roomba as monster In-Reply-To: <008101c5240f$7b91f6c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> References: <20050308173132.10248.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> <008101c5240f$7b91f6c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_89329703==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_89329703==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jones Beene wrote: >Under the guise of anti-terrorism, and/or anti-crime, within >a short time (shorter than you can imagine) we will be >implanted, starting with children (via painless injection at >birth) with a nano-computer/transmitter/controller. What >parent would not want the perfect solution to prevent >kidnapping, SIDS, even crying? Seriously now, how could RFID possibly prevent crying? I assume that is a joke. It would not do much to prevent kidnapping either, because the readers do not work a few meters away from the target. I suppose if readers were everywhere, in every store entrance, the kidnapper could not bring the kid anywhere . . . RFID chips have been implanted in pets for years. There is no doubt that things like RFID and credit cards would make it easier to implement Big Brother government surveillance. But you do not need such things. The Tokugawa regime in Japan kept much tighter control over the population than any modern fascist state, and it collected accurate information on everything from the number of people to the number of trees in the forests (see J. Diamond, "Collapse"). It was like the Reformation Calvinist government in Switzerland: it regulated every person's life in minute detail, decreeing the names people were allowed to give their children, the type of clothing they were allowed to wear, and the dishes and building materials each social class was allowed. It imposed swift and harsh punishments. (Calvin probably went further than the Shogunate in this; two of his own stepchildren were executed for adultery.) The Tokugawa instituted many laws to improve surveillance, data collection and control. For example, it ordered that all houses be made porous and easy to infiltrate, so that government agents could eavesdrop on conversations within. Democracy would not prevent the growth of such intrusive institutions. The habits of tight, top-down control of society never died out in Japan, even though it is now a democratic society. The point is, the Swiss and the Japanese imposed harsh Big Brother governments with premodern technology, and any other country could have done likewise, but they did not. Even though our ability to monitor people is now enhanced to an unprecedented extent, that does not mean we will necessarily start doing it. People do not always do every terrible thing they are capable of. In the 1950s and '60s some people, including Richard Feynman, assumed that nuclear war was inevitable. For some reason, they believed that people always end up doing the worst thing they are capable of. Marxism is predicated on the same notion. I see no reason to believe it. No one would assert that people will inevitably do the best, kindest, most compassionate things they are capable of, so why should anyone think that people always go to the opposite extreme? - Jed --=====================_89329703==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jones Beene wrote:

Under the guise of anti-terrorism, and/or anti-crime, within
a short time (shorter than you can imagine) we will be
implanted, starting with children (via painless injection at
birth) with a nano-computer/transmitter/controller. What
parent would not want the perfect solution to prevent
kidnapping, SIDS, even crying?

Seriously now, how could RFID possibly prevent crying? I assume that is a joke. It would not do much to prevent kidnapping either, because the readers do not work a few meters away from the target. I suppose if readers were everywhere, in every store entrance, the kidnapper could not bring the kid anywhere . . .

RFID chips have been implanted in pets for years.

There is no doubt that things like RFID and credit cards would make it easier to implement Big Brother government surveillance. But you do not need such things. The Tokugawa regime in Japan kept much tighter control over the population than any modern fascist state, and it collected accurate information on everything from the number of people to the number of trees in the forests (see J. Diamond, "Collapse"). It was like the Reformation Calvinist government in Switzerland: it regulated every person's life in minute detail, decreeing the names people were allowed to give their children, the type of clothing they were allowed to wear, and the dishes and building materials each social class was allowed. It imposed swift and harsh punishments. (Calvin probably went further than the Shogunate in this; two of his own stepchildren were executed for adultery.) The Tokugawa instituted many laws to improve surveillance, data collection and control. For example, it ordered that all houses be made porous and easy to infiltrate, so that government agents could eavesdrop on conversations within. Democracy would not prevent the growth of such intrusive institutions. The habits of tight, top-down control of society never died out in Japan, even though it is now a democratic society.

The point is, the Swiss and the Japanese imposed harsh Big Brother governments with premodern technology, and any other country could have done likewise, but they did not. Even though our ability to monitor people is now enhanced to an unprecedented extent, that does not mean we will necessarily start doing it. People do not always do every terrible thing they are capable of. In the 1950s and '60s some people, including Richard Feynman, assumed that nuclear war was inevitable. For some reason, they believed that people always end up doing the worst thing they are capable of. Marxism is predicated on the same notion. I see no reason to believe it. No one would assert that people will inevitably do the best, kindest, most compassionate things they are capable of, so why should anyone think that people always go to the opposite extreme?

- Jed
--=====================_89329703==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 11:33:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28JXGW1005645; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:33:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28JX7Sm005588; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:33:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:33:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=TkkpnZCFJkx8EPTInDyZQ6Ya7y1hIFNzUNuKA9qL87ApoMYHxdUDr1ljDrSekVRxzYijIPGkSPeU1IrjDoHyjbvvvjJypBtWpQIvpL7C2Z2LMQIECsJbWasNeKaZmq4iIc+/mcuRTxv+D8+TOZnh2FnseM4O/PB3iWHxnJPdFcU= ; Message-ID: <20050308191928.84389.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:19:27 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Roomba as monster To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1057927019-1110309567=:84301" Resent-Message-ID: <0TVNUC.A.QXB.x3fLCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1057927019-1110309567=:84301 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dunno, I took the blue pill long ago. I agree with you with one exception: the SSN will be displaced by an imbedded IP address in the RFID. Read 'Neuromancer' by Gibson. Jones Beene wrote: Well, at least its better than the tank-containment situation, seen at the beginning of "The Matrix" ... or is it? --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --0-1057927019-1110309567=:84301 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Dunno, I took the blue pill long ago.
 
I agree with you with one exception:  the SSN will be displaced by an imbedded IP address in the RFID.
 
Read 'Neuromancer' by Gibson.

Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:
Well, at least its better than the tank-containment
situation, seen at the beginning of "The Matrix" ... or is
it?

Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --0-1057927019-1110309567=:84301-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 11:49:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28JmxW1012990; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:49:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28Jmsqu012952; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:48:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:48:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308143050.02b54e10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:48:16 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Health care costs In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308091402.02bbe690 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_90406046==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_90406046==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed leaking pen wrote: >its true that there is more treatment available, but heres the thing. >its NOT that expensive. an average 10k dollar surgery actually costs, >in terms of materials and salarya and other overhead, maybe 1500. >there is a MASSIVE price increase, because, well, pay or die. and as >medical care as we know it has a monopoly on modern healthcare, thats >not about to change. That is true, and it is an important contributing factor to rising health-care costs. But the problem could be fixed easily with free-market capitalism. Traditionally, in the US doctors did not make much money. Through the 1940s it was said that the only way a doctor could be rich was to marry money. In Japan they do not make all that much. The reason is obvious: there are lots of medical schools and lots of doctors. The US medical profession artificially limits the number of slots available in medical schools. In any other business that would be considered a violation of the antitrust laws. The Justice Department is not likely to crack down on it under this administration, but who knows what might happen in the future. It would only take 10 or 20 years for the number of doctors to increase enough to reduce the cost of surgery. The recent collapse of the "body scan" industry proves that medicine is not immune to the laws of economics. Naturally, economic laws operate quite different in medicine than with most other businesses, because the customer's life is at stake. It is an extreme situation. But not that extreme, and not unique or unprecedented. Your life is at stake when you take an airplane trip or drive a car, yet airlines and automakers are clearly at the mercy of the market. Academic researchers also violate antitrust laws with peer-reviewed journals and the methods they use to allocate funds and grants. Their system is an open invitation to corruption, graft and plagiarism. - Jed --=====================_90406046==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" leaking pen wrote:

its true that there is more treatment available, but heres the thing.
its NOT that expensive.  an average 10k dollar surgery actually costs,
in terms of materials and salarya and other overhead, maybe 1500.
there is a MASSIVE price increase, because, well, pay or die.  and as
medical care as we know it has a monopoly on modern healthcare, thats
not about to change.

That is true, and it is an important contributing factor to rising health-care costs. But the problem could be  fixed easily with free-market capitalism. Traditionally, in the US doctors did not make much money. Through the 1940s it was said that the only way a doctor could be rich was to marry money. In Japan they do not make all that much. The reason is obvious: there are lots of medical schools and lots of doctors. The US medical profession artificially limits the number of slots available in medical schools. In any other business that would be considered a violation of the antitrust laws. The Justice Department is not likely to crack down on it under this administration, but who knows what might happen in the future. It would only take 10 or 20 years for the number of doctors to increase enough to reduce the cost of surgery. The recent collapse of the "body scan" industry proves that medicine is not immune to the laws of economics.

Naturally, economic laws operate quite different in medicine than with most other businesses, because the customer's life is at stake. It is an extreme situation. But not that extreme, and not unique or unprecedented. Your life is at stake when you take an airplane trip or drive a car, yet airlines and automakers are clearly at the mercy of the market.

Academic researchers also violate antitrust laws with peer-reviewed journals and the methods they use to allocate funds and grants. Their system is an open invitation to corruption, graft and plagiarism.

- Jed
--=====================_90406046==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 11:53:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28JrHW1014723; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:53:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28Jr08F014573; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:53:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:53:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=o8oyedrdNSl/dRsyx3po0kZ4Yl523E1MV6TmIAMdzUsnR1oGiXlY8JW5LUOO4KipbPxdyTmU18f5r/mzi252Zx3y+jhf0mevKCzs2cSDe7Ll9l3MkJqi/pLqH8W9MUTNJGgYtkDIv6JQcmkX5RCM8aDzfviIvfLtXpbrGr3ca2Q= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:52:46 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Health care costs In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308143050.02b54e10 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308091402.02bbe690 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308143050.02b54e10 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j28JqoW1014513 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: its not just that. the hospitals themselves inflate costs. ambulance services, they charge outrageous rates, such as 50 dollars for a 1.50 triangular bandage. why? becuase the INSUREANCE companies are going to pay for it. they know theyll get their money. On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:48:16 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > leaking pen wrote: > > its true that there is more treatment available, but heres the thing. > its NOT that expensive. an average 10k dollar surgery actually costs, > in terms of materials and salarya and other overhead, maybe 1500. > there is a MASSIVE price increase, because, well, pay or die. and as > medical care as we know it has a monopoly on modern healthcare, thats > not about to change. > That is true, and it is an important contributing factor to rising > health-care costs. But the problem could be fixed easily with free-market > capitalism. Traditionally, in the US doctors did not make much money. > Through the 1940s it was said that the only way a doctor could be rich was > to marry money. In Japan they do not make all that much. The reason is > obvious: there are lots of medical schools and lots of doctors. The US > medical profession artificially limits the number of slots available in > medical schools. In any other business that would be considered a violation > of the antitrust laws. The Justice Department is not likely to crack down on > it under this administration, but who knows what might happen in the future. > It would only take 10 or 20 years for the number of doctors to increase > enough to reduce the cost of surgery. The recent collapse of the "body scan" > industry proves that medicine is not immune to the laws of economics. > > Naturally, economic laws operate quite different in medicine than with most > other businesses, because the customer's life is at stake. It is an extreme > situation. But not that extreme, and not unique or unprecedented. Your life > is at stake when you take an airplane trip or drive a car, yet airlines and > automakers are clearly at the mercy of the market. > > Academic researchers also violate antitrust laws with peer-reviewed journals > and the methods they use to allocate funds and grants. Their system is an > open invitation to corruption, graft and plagiarism. > > - Jed > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 11:59:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28JwfW1016862; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:58:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28Jwb7h016828; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:58:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:58:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=D5kO76eMO1r0K9TXJtoR3oPLk/pHl9TBFtCSJuBZK0vh3K0DCiIf58VSdJVUkCBDGq0YS+HzHA2V9s/OEwNNkmNFGIqtsJv9zAY8TbBQXYjHi7ajF7NCF87vgl8UA1qcym6SJJyVetJ7g0ynzMBzcdai++Q2kycpWntTfH4q1TA= ; Message-ID: <20050308195824.1477.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:58:23 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Bethe Dead at 98 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1077616898-1110311903=:99272" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-1077616898-1110311903=:99272 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii He said the sun is powered by fusion: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2005-03-07-bethe-obit_x.htm --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --0-1077616898-1110311903=:99272 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
He said the sun is powered by fusion:
 

Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --0-1077616898-1110311903=:99272-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 12:24:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28KNxW1028449; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:23:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28KNraj028403; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:23:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:23:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308145730.02c2a2c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:18:12 -0500 To: leaking pen , vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Health care costs In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308091402.02bbe690 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308143050.02b54e10 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_92196515==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_92196515==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed leaking pen wrote: >its not just that. the hospitals themselves inflate costs. ambulance >services, they charge outrageous rates, such as 50 dollars for a 1.50 >triangular bandage. why? becuase the INSUREANCE companies are going >to pay for it. they know theyll get their money. Right, of course. But again the basic problem is lack of free-market competition. Again, there are many hospitals in Japan, so the costs are much more moderate. Also healthcare is way better overall -- people live longer, infant mortality is lower, and getting treatment for a sprain or asthma is much more convenient. You just walk in the door and they treat you. (For that matter, infant mortality is lower in Cuba than the U.S. The U.S. tends to lag in things like primary school education and healthcare.) The downside is that most Japanese hospitals I have been in were like a U.S. cafeteria or highway McDonald's: crowded, filthy, the food is awful, and there is no privacy. Most do not make enough money to build deluxe facilities. But I know people who have had bypass surgery and complicated ectopic pregnancy repaired for a few thousand dollars. There is national health insurance in Japan, which is partly why individual patients pay little directly for bypass surgery. But the overall bill including the portion the government pays is also low. The percent of the GNP that the nation pays for healthcare is much lower than the US. Still, health care and retirement costs are considered in crisis in Japan, and debates about how to do with them are a regular feature of the seven o'clock news and Sunday Meet the Press type shows. As far as I can tell from the situation in Japan, national health insurance does not have the deleterious socialistic effects predicted by people who oppose it in the U.S. As I see it, the U.S. system is not only socialistic, it is hard-core communist. I mean for the doctors, not the patients! Competition has been squelched and the results are predictable. - Jed --=====================_92196515==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" leaking pen wrote:

its not just that.  the hospitals themselves inflate costs.  ambulance
services, they charge outrageous rates, such as 50 dollars for a 1.50
triangular bandage.  why?  becuase the INSUREANCE companies are going
to pay for it.  they know theyll get their money.

Right, of course. But again the basic problem is lack of free-market competition. Again, there are many hospitals in Japan, so the costs are much more moderate. Also healthcare is way better overall -- people live longer, infant mortality is lower, and getting treatment for a sprain or asthma is much more convenient. You just walk in the door and they treat you. (For that matter, infant mortality is lower in Cuba than the U.S. The U.S. tends to lag in things like primary school education and healthcare.) The downside is that most Japanese hospitals I have been in were like a U.S. cafeteria or highway McDonald's: crowded, filthy, the food is awful, and there is no privacy. Most do not make enough money to build deluxe facilities. But I know people who have had bypass surgery and complicated ectopic pregnancy repaired for a few thousand dollars.

There is national health insurance in Japan, which is partly why individual patients pay little directly for bypass surgery. But the overall bill including the portion the government pays is also low. The percent of the GNP that the nation pays for healthcare is  much lower than the US. Still, health care and retirement costs are considered in crisis in Japan, and debates about how to do with them are a regular feature of the seven o'clock news and Sunday Meet the Press type shows.

As far as I can tell from the situation in Japan, national health insurance does not have the deleterious socialistic effects predicted by people who oppose it in the U.S. As I see it, the U.S. system is not only socialistic, it is hard-core communist. I mean for the doctors, not the patients! Competition has been squelched and the results are predictable.

- Jed
--=====================_92196515==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 12:29:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28KTFW1030668; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:29:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28KT9DI030602; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:29:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:29:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308151830.02c26c58 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:28:50 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Bethe Dead at 98 In-Reply-To: <20050308195824.1477.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050308195824.1477.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_92829531==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_92829531==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Terry Blanton wrote: >He said the sun is powered by fusion: He was probably right, too. I was going to comment on this. It is astounding to think that the person who first figured out how the Sun works was still alive in 2005. This shows how short the history of science has been. The most fundamental questions, such as how the sun shines and how cells reproduce, were answered only yesterday. Just imagine how much more we will know if science is allowed to continue for 10,000 years! Yet clowns like Horgan say we have reached the end of science already, and they are doing their level best to fulfill this prophesy. Fleischmann thinks they will win. I hope not, but I don't know. - Jed --=====================_92829531==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Terry Blanton wrote:

He said the sun is powered by fusion:

He was probably right, too.

I was going to comment on this. It is astounding to think that the person who first figured out how the Sun works was still alive in 2005. This shows how short the history of science has been. The most fundamental questions, such as how the sun shines and how cells reproduce, were answered only yesterday. Just imagine how much more we will know if science is allowed to continue for 10,000 years! Yet clowns like Horgan say we have reached the end of science already, and they are doing their level best to fulfill this prophesy. Fleischmann thinks they will win. I hope not, but I don't know.

- Jed
--=====================_92829531==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 12:47:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28KkDW1007584; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:47:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28KjglK007311; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:45:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:45:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308153938.02c2de80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:43:59 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Health care costs - outsourcing is working In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308145730.02c2a2c0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308091402.02bbe690 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308143050.02b54e10 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308145730.02c2a2c0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_93738000==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_93738000==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Actually, the whole problem of excessive health care costs in the US is being fixed by outsourcing to India. My doctor and many others in Atlanta are from India. Many Americans who require expensive and complicated operations are now going to India. The doctors and nurses are nicer, the facilities are better, and the cost is ten times cheaper. Sooner or later this will have an impact on the salaries of American doctors. Serves them right! - Jed --=====================_93738000==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Actually, the whole problem of excessive health care costs in the US is being fixed by outsourcing to India. My doctor and many others in Atlanta are from India. Many Americans who require expensive and complicated operations are now going to India. The doctors and nurses are nicer, the facilities are better, and the cost is ten times cheaper. Sooner or later this will have an impact on the salaries of American doctors. Serves them right!

- Jed
 --=====================_93738000==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 13:04:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28L4WW1014945; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:04:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28L4Pm1014888; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:04:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:04:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=kEMW3kksivV10HhvXhb5TchE119R/r2lXaPl/so+uFkHoZIFQPmXwakpppzHDxXxh4NjHuSDuYC2wsWUhN99q5ROWVxB0sLG1erizEh8Ip+/Aa7vRb6XQuKMR5DfR9HTNkOI5jAy+hWrIePZi4iH2wd1PytoRLYHTimq2LfyfHI= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:04:02 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Health care costs - outsourcing is working In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308153938.02c2de80 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308091402.02bbe690 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308143050.02b54e10 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308145730.02c2a2c0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308153938.02c2de80 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j28L4EW1014805 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: the funny part is, thats not actually a joke. there IS a lot of outsourcing going on, and people here in the us making scads of cash, the ones that could actually afford the treatment here find it cheaper to fly overseas, where they can also get procedures done that arent yet fda approved, thus not available to us mere mortals who dont deduct more in interest payments than your average american grosses. On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:43:59 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Actually, the whole problem of excessive health care costs in the US is > being fixed by outsourcing to India. My doctor and many others in Atlanta > are from India. Many Americans who require expensive and complicated > operations are now going to India. The doctors and nurses are nicer, the > facilities are better, and the cost is ten times cheaper. Sooner or later > this will have an impact on the salaries of American doctors. Serves them > right! > > - Jed > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 13:21:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28LL9W1021586; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:21:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28LKdoT021412; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:20:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:20:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <010901c52424$7cb6bb20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050308173132.10248.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> <008101c5240f$7b91f6c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308135830.02bfef68@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Roomba as monster Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:19:17 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FWIW the "roomba" even has its own forum, and the hackers are already at work on the "zoomba" ... but, that could actually have been predicted by future-watchers ... http://www.roombacommunity.com/ > >Under the guise of anti-terrorism, and/or anti-crime, within > >a short time (shorter than you can imagine) we will be > >implanted, starting with children (via painless injection at > >birth) with a nano-computer/transmitter/controller. What > >parent would not want the perfect solution to prevent > >kidnapping, SIDS, even crying? > Seriously now, how could RFID possibly prevent crying? I assume that is a > joke. It would not do much to prevent kidnapping either, because the > readers do not work a few meters away from the target. Absolutely no joke, Jed.... You ask the readers of your book, for instance, to suspend disbelief and to transpose the concept of a fully advanced LENR power supply into future situations, but you are trying to shoehorn the current state of RFID (the "stone age" version, so to speak) without consideration of the obvious course of advancement, and the proven implications of Moore's law. This is very serious... and expected. We all have distinct brain waves that are well-correlated with such things a pain, fear, self-assurance, deep meditation, love, hate, and so on... one can suspect that with future advances in EM transmitters, that these brain-waves can be simulated and stimulated by the same type of electrical transmitter which would sends RF signals, only tuned to the lower frequency and other peculiarities of brain waves. The effect on the conduct of an individual is likely to be overwhelming. IOW in 10 years when we have the equivalent of a supercomputer reduced to a near nano-machine which is easily implantable, along with the RF transmission capability; then brain-wave stimulation capability, as well as a large degree of self-contained AI, and voila!! the *control* possibilities are limitless. That future implant, tiny as it is, and powered by the host's own metabolism, can sense the host's emotions, hear and understand conversations with others, and predict future conduct ... and if in a child where "crying" is indicated, then it will send the appropriate signal for "comfort" and also notify the parent ... and it is just a step from there to eavesdropping on anti-social conversations, and either "tattling" to the appropriate authority or taking the appropriate internal action which prevents the fulfillment of those negative indicators, whether they take the form of criminal conduct, drug use, suicide, or terrorism, or really any prohibited conduct. By this time small micro-receivers will be placed and hidden everywhere throughout society, so the low power of the transmission is not a problem. One might try to defeat the "watchdog" system, like our California "Gubernator" Arnie-the-destroyer did with a towell wrapped over his head in that great Sci-Fi movie based on the PK Dick short story, but there are counter-measures for that too. Control can practically be guaranteed at the individual level, at some point in the future. This is all just a step-wise advancement. The base technologies are in place, waiting for Moore's law and vastly increased R&D before taking off... it is all just the natural progression of computers and networks. RFID is getting vast infusions of capital, and it will be an unstoppable force to contend with, most likely. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 13:39:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28LdfW1028716; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:39:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28Lbb9N027859; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:37:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:37:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <41401-22005328213728570 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: The Alchemist Newsletter from ChemWeb.com Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:37:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8f3a7dade6c7630217cda79dd356e7f8210da127345fe7d85350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.75.169 Resent-Message-ID: <6k49a.A.BzG.dshLCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Akira Kawasaki aki ix.netcom.com EarthLink Revolves Around You. ----- Original Message ----- From: News ChemWeb.com To: Akira Kawasaki Sent: 3/8/2005 1:28:58 PM Subject: The Alchemist Newsletter from ChemWeb.com Mar 8, 2005 In The Alchemist this issue, collapsing bubbles hotter than the stars, unraveling a cellulose mystery, and rolling up e-paper. Also in the latest issue: turning garbage gas into something useful and the boron aggregates that cluster together at last. physical: Overheating bubbles bio-organic: A once indigestible problem organic: Plastic fantastic makes rollable e-paper a reality environmental: Making the most of methane inorganic: Boron bridges the gap Overheating bubbles The idea of sustainable and useful desktop fusion remains a controversial field, but studies into related laboratory effects continue. Now, Ken Suslick and David Flannigan of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign have demonstrated that the temperature inside a collapsing sonoluminescent bubble is four times the temperature of the surface of the sun. “When bubbles in a liquid get compressed, the insides get hot - very hot,” explains Suslick, but until now nobody has measured this temperature. Sonoluminescence arises from acoustic cavitation when small gas bubbles in a liquid are "irradiated" with sound waves above 18 kHz. As the bubbles collapse intense local heating occurs, which produces light. Suslick and Flannigan observed the spectra of the light, which reveals the bubble's incredibly high temperature, and suggest that such temperatures could only arise from a plasma. Temperature inside collapsing bubble four times that of sun back to top A once indigestible problem UK researchers reveal that the ability to digest cellulose, the most common organic material produced by life, is not such a rare talent in the animal kingdom as scientists previously thought. Angus Davison of the University of Nottingham and Mark Blaxter of the University of Edinburgh were aware that a few animals possess cellulase enzymes, which is capable of breaking down the tough sugar-based polymers produced by plants. However, scientists were puzzled as to why an enzyme hundreds of millions of years old should not be more widespread in the animal kingdom. After all, cellulose would make a ready fuel source for any organism if it could be broken down. Now, the researchers have discovered that cellulases are not so rare after all, turning up in earthworms, sea urchins, lobsters, and bees. The researchers suggest that our ancient evolutionary ancestors may also have had cellulase enzymes, although why we lost them remains a mystery. Unravelling a genetic mystery back to top Plastic fantastic makes rollable e-paper a reality A polymer-based display developed by Dutch company Philips under the PolymerVision brand, can be rolled up like a newspaper. The PolymerVision PV-QML5 announced on March 2 is an ultra-thin (100µm) featherweight 320 x 240 pixel active-matrix display, five inches from corner to corner. Each layer of the matrix is flexible allowing the whole sheet to be rolled up. While flexible plastic displays have been discussed for several decades, this device is perhaps the first to become a commercial reality. According to Philips, it generates four shades of gray and can be read under almost any light conditions, even sunlight, as though it were real newsprint, but with the obvious advantage that the contents can be changed. Philips rollable displays to offer paper-like reading experience in mobile applications back to top Making the most of methane Methane from garbage dumps and landfill sites could be converted into useful fuel more effectively, according to Viktor Popov of the Wessex Institute of Technology, in Southampton, UK. Popov has developed a solution to the problem of air getting into the methane during extraction of the gas from landfills. The solution could make extraction from even small sites economically viable. The solution uses on three-layer membrane based on clay to cover a landfill site. Carbon dioxide is pumped into the semi-permeable layer which then acts as a pressurized barrier to the outside, preventing air from being drawn into the landfill as the methane is pumped out. The next step in the development of the idea will be to find a way to remove the nitrogen from the extracted methane. Making the best of garbage gas back to top Boron bridges the gap Inorganic clusters bridge the gap between molecular chemistry and solid state chemistry. Now, John Kennedy and colleagues from the University of Leeds and CLRC Daresbury have investigated the cluster chemistry of boron hydrides in the hope of extending the chemistry of this intriguing class of compounds beyond the well-worn stable region of clusters containing just twelve boron atoms. They report two macropolyhedral metalloborane complexes containing 14 and 16 boron atoms, which form through a chemical fusion-condensation process. The researchers say this is an important step towards developing boron chemistry and sheds light on how other boron fragments might be aggregated. Macropolyhedral boron-containing cluster chemistry back to top -- David Bradley, Science Journalist SPONSORED BY CAS - SciFinder SciFinder provides an easy-to-use channel to CAS databases containing more than 25 million substances and 54 million proteins and nucleic acids, all seamlessly linked to more than 24 million records for journal articles and patents. SciFinder is an essential part of the research process for thousands of scientists worldwide. Learn more at the CAS Website Malvern Instruments Ltd. Malvern is a leading supplier of analytical solutions for particle characterization (size, shape, zeta potential, molecular weight) and rheological applications. Advanced technologies are combined with robust mechanical designs and comprehensive software to provide on-line, at-line and off-line solutions for QA/QC, control and development applications. An extensive support service facilitates the exploitation of any given system. www.malvern.co.uk FREE Magazines Trade Publications FREE to Qualified subscribers of "The Alchemist" and Chemweb.com. No hidden or trial offers, and no purchase necessary. Publications are absolutely free to those who qualify. Sign-up here ChemJobs.net - More chemistry jobs ChemJobs.net, the Web's leading jobs site for chemists, pharmaceutical scientists and chemical industry professionals is now bigger than ever. Over 500,000 unique users per month access the site through ChemIndustry.com and ChemWeb.com, making ChemJobs.net THE place to start looking for qualified candidates and new chemistry related jobs on the Web. Visit www.chemjobs.net today. Free Newsletters ChemIndustry.com's Newsletter Center invites you to subscribe to newsletters of your interest - free of charge. Click here for details This copy of the Alchemist was addressed to aki ix.netcom.com. If you would like to unsubscribe, click here. The Alchemist is published under the copyright of ChemIndustry.com Inc.©2005. For additional information including contact information and sponsorship opportunities, please contact Rick Whiteman or visit our web sites at www.chemweb.com and www.chemindustry.com. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII The Alchemist - March 2005
 
 
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Mar 8, 2005
  

In The Alchemist this issue, collapsing bubbles hotter than the stars, unraveling a cellulose mystery, and rolling up e-paper. Also in the latest issue: turning garbage gas into something useful and the boron aggregates that cluster together at last.

 physical: Overheating bubbles
 bio-organic: A once indigestible problem
 organic: Plastic fantastic makes rollable e-paper a reality
 environmental: Making the most of methane
 inorganic: Boron bridges the gap

Overheating bubbles

The idea of sustainable and useful desktop fusion remains a controversial field, but studies into related laboratory effects continue. Now, Ken Suslick and David Flannigan of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign have demonstrated that the temperature inside a collapsing sonoluminescent bubble is four times the temperature of the surface of the sun. “When bubbles in a liquid get compressed, the insides get hot - very hot,” explains Suslick, but until now nobody has measured this temperature. Sonoluminescence arises from acoustic cavitation when small gas bubbles in a liquid are "irradiated" with sound waves above 18 kHz. As the bubbles collapse intense local heating occurs, which produces light. Suslick and Flannigan observed the spectra of the light, which reveals the bubble's incredibly high temperature, and suggest that such temperatures could only arise from a plasma.

Temperature inside collapsing bubble four times that of sun

back to top

 


A once indigestible problem

UK researchers reveal that the ability to digest cellulose, the most common organic material produced by life, is not such a rare talent in the animal kingdom as scientists previously thought. Angus Davison of the University of Nottingham and Mark Blaxter of the University of Edinburgh were aware that a few animals possess cellulase enzymes, which is capable of breaking down the tough sugar-based polymers produced by plants. However, scientists were puzzled as to why an enzyme hundreds of millions of years old should not be more widespread in the animal kingdom. After all, cellulose would make a ready fuel source for any organism if it could be broken down. Now, the researchers have discovered that cellulases are not so rare after all, turning up in earthworms, sea urchins, lobsters, and bees. The researchers suggest that our ancient evolutionary ancestors may also have had cellulase enzymes, although why we lost them remains a mystery.

Unravelling a genetic mystery

back to top

 


Plastic fantastic makes rollable e-paper a reality

A polymer-based display developed by Dutch company Philips under the PolymerVision brand, can be rolled up like a newspaper. The PolymerVision PV-QML5 announced on March 2 is an ultra-thin (100µm) featherweight 320 x 240 pixel active-matrix display, five inches from corner to corner. Each layer of the matrix is flexible allowing the whole sheet to be rolled up. While flexible plastic displays have been discussed for several decades, this device is perhaps the first to become a commercial reality. According to Philips, it generates four shades of gray and can be read under almost any light conditions, even sunlight, as though it were real newsprint, but with the obvious advantage that the contents can be changed.

Philips rollable displays to offer paper-like reading experience in mobile applications

back to top

 


Making the most of methane

Methane from garbage dumps and landfill sites could be converted into useful fuel more effectively, according to Viktor Popov of the Wessex Institute of Technology, in Southampton, UK. Popov has developed a solution to the problem of air getting into the methane during extraction of the gas from landfills. The solution could make extraction from even small sites economically viable. The solution uses on three-layer membrane based on clay to cover a landfill site. Carbon dioxide is pumped into the semi-permeable layer which then acts as a pressurized barrier to the outside, preventing air from being drawn into the landfill as the methane is pumped out. The next step in the development of the idea will be to find a way to remove the nitrogen from the extracted methane.

Making the best of garbage gas

back to top

 


Boron bridges the gap

Inorganic clusters bridge the gap between molecular chemistry and solid state chemistry. Now, John Kennedy and colleagues from the University of Leeds and CLRC Daresbury have investigated the cluster chemistry of boron hydrides in the hope of extending the chemistry of this intriguing class of compounds beyond the well-worn stable region of clusters containing just twelve boron atoms. They report two macropolyhedral metalloborane complexes containing 14 and 16 boron atoms, which form through a chemical fusion-condensation process. The researchers say this is an important step towards developing boron chemistry and sheds light on how other boron fragments might be aggregated.

Macropolyhedral boron-containing cluster chemistry

back to top

-- David Bradley, Science Journalist

 
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This copy of the Alchemist was addressed to aki ix.netcom.com. If you would like to unsubscribe, click here. The Alchemist is published under the copyright of ChemIndustry.com Inc.©2005. For additional information including contact information and sponsorship opportunities, please contact Rick Whiteman <Rick@ChemWeb.com> or visit our web sites at www.chemweb.com and www.chemindustry.com.

 

 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 13:44:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28LiFW1030624; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:44:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28LiAA5030587; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:44:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:44:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050308134515.05a13608 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:45:54 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Bethe Dead at 98 In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308151830.02c26c58 pop.mindspring.com> References: <20050308195824.1477.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> <20050308195824.1477.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Horgan say we have reached the end of science already, and they are doing >their level best to fulfill this prophesy. Fleischmann thinks they will >win. I hope not, but I don't know. Yes, Martin sure does. Posted last night: http://newenergytimes.com/Conversations/FleischmannByLietz.htm s From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 13:55:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28LtVW1002655; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:55:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28LtEee002534; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:55:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:55:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308164710.02b52ee0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 16:53:53 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: First EAP muscle challenge: teenaged girl 3, machines 0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The first arm wrestling championship of EAP muscles was held recently in California. Humans were represented by 17-year-old Panna Felson, a high school student who took six AP courses in one year, but physically she says she is a wimp. However, unlike John Henry, she (figuratively) beat the pants off the machines. See: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7113 http://ndeaa.jpl.nasa.gov/nasa-nde/lommas/eap/amerah/the-human-opponent.htm Actually, the real John Henry was no fool. He never tried to beat steam powered spiking machines, and he lived to a ripe old age. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 14:04:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28M0QWn004804; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:04:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28LcYEp028321; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:38:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:38:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308161510.02b4b7c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 16:27:19 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Health care costs - outsourcing is working In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308091402.02bbe690 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308143050.02b54e10 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308145730.02c2a2c0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308153938.02c2de80 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_96337468==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_96337468==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed leaking pen wrote: >the funny part is, thats not actually a joke. Not a joke at all. It is becoming quite common, and people who have been to India recommend it. >. . . there IS a lot of outsourcing going on, and people here in the us >making scads of cash, >the ones that could actually afford the treatment here find it cheaper to >fly overseas . . . Everyone finds it cheaper. The round-trip airfare from Atlanta is $1,200. They will charge you that much for Kleenex in an Atlanta hospital. Middle class and poor people are going. Especially people who have a serious illness and no health insurance. I exaggerated the difference in cost. A hip operation that costs ~$24,000 in the US is available for $6,600 to Americans in India. The extra $1,200 for airfare hardly matters. See: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1022456.cms The hospital described here has treated 43,000 foreign patients in the last 3.5 years. - Jed --=====================_96337468==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" leaking pen wrote:

the funny part is, thats not actually a joke.

Not a joke at all. It is becoming quite common, and people who have been to India recommend it.


. . . there IS a lot of outsourcing going on, and people here in the us making scads of cash,
the ones that could actually afford the treatment here find it cheaper to fly overseas . . .

Everyone finds it cheaper. The round-trip airfare from Atlanta is $1,200. They will charge you that much for Kleenex in an Atlanta hospital. Middle class and poor people are going. Especially people who have a serious illness and no health insurance.

I exaggerated the difference in cost. A hip operation that costs ~$24,000 in the US is available for $6,600 to Americans in India. The extra $1,200 for airfare hardly matters. See:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1022456.cms

The hospital described here has treated 43,000 foreign patients in the last 3.5 years.

- Jed
--=====================_96337468==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 14:10:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28MAAW1008614; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:10:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28MA4r6008571; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:10:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:10:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308165753.02c865c8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 17:09:32 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Progress in brain implants In-Reply-To: <010901c52424$7cb6bb20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> References: <20050308173132.10248.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> <008101c5240f$7b91f6c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308135830.02bfef68 pop.mindspring.com> <010901c52424$7cb6bb20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_98876421==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_98876421==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jones Beene wrote: >This is very serious... and expected. We all have distinct >brain waves that are well-correlated with such things a >pain, fear, self-assurance, deep meditation, love, hate, and >so on... one can suspect that with future advances in EM >transmitters, that these brain-waves can be simulated and >stimulated by the same type of electrical transmitter which >would sends RF signals, only tuned to the lower frequency >and other peculiarities of brain waves. The effect on the >conduct of an individual is likely to be overwhelming. Oh come now. That's a huge stretch! There is no proof that you can control minds with this method, and even if you could it might take centuries to achieve such results. People working in the other direction, using implanted sensors to let minds control external devices, have achieved considerable success. That seems like a much simpler problem. That's how the brain is designed to function, after all. It controls external devices; they do not control it. See: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.03/brain.html And here is some guy that wants to add extra RAM memory to people's brains, to make up for memory disorders in the hippocampus: http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,65422,00.html O brave new world! - Jed --=====================_98876421==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jones Beene wrote:

This is very serious... and expected.  We all have distinct
brain waves that are well-correlated with such things a
pain, fear, self-assurance, deep meditation, love, hate, and
so on... one can suspect that with future advances in EM
transmitters, that these brain-waves can be simulated and
stimulated by the same type of electrical transmitter which
would sends RF signals, only tuned to the lower frequency
and other peculiarities of brain waves. The effect on the
conduct of an individual is likely to be overwhelming.

Oh come now. That's a huge stretch! There is no proof that you can control minds with this method, and even if you could it might take centuries to achieve such results.

People working in the other direction, using implanted sensors to let minds control external devices, have achieved considerable success. That seems like a much simpler problem. That's how the brain is designed to function, after all. It controls external devices; they do not control it. See:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.03/brain.html


And here is some guy that wants to add extra RAM memory to people's brains, to make up for memory disorders in the hippocampus:

http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,65422,00.html

O brave new world!

- Jed
--=====================_98876421==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 14:16:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28MGYW1012058; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:16:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28MGRq1011974; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:16:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:16:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=a5eKCENATWKjpBKN1wfAjim6i+iqHTt6uRMjzddKmhKxSsCXJxnFOMC+yQlE5glOHTEGkag3rlY8G+dRyeRjub4SBBAoiYokbz1+1hz45filV5kx3UqygQ32fZsUyphU0LYVZqm/moc7rQK8ZEe9zUB3svcLfiQJ1ltDBKC5Aww= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:16:07 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Health care costs - outsourcing is working In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308161510.02b4b7c0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308091402.02bbe690 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308143050.02b54e10 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308145730.02c2a2c0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308153938.02c2de80 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308161510.02b4b7c0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j28MGJW1011878 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: for those that can afford even that. most are simply going without, or with what they can get through medicare/ medicaid. On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 16:27:19 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > leaking pen wrote: > > the funny part is, thats not actually a joke. > Not a joke at all. It is becoming quite common, and people who have been to > India recommend it. > > > . . . there IS a lot of outsourcing going on, and people here in the us > making scads of cash, > the ones that could actually afford the treatment here find it cheaper to > fly overseas . . . > Everyone finds it cheaper. The round-trip airfare from Atlanta is $1,200. > They will charge you that much for Kleenex in an Atlanta hospital. Middle > class and poor people are going. Especially people who have a serious > illness and no health insurance. > > I exaggerated the difference in cost. A hip operation that costs ~$24,000 in > the US is available for $6,600 to Americans in India. The extra $1,200 for > airfare hardly matters. See: > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1022456.cms > > The hospital described here has treated 43,000 foreign patients in the last > 3.5 years. > > - Jed > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 15:06:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j28N6PW1032271; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:06:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j28N6JXG032211; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:06:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:06:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <014801c52433$44290c40$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050308173132.10248.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> <008101c5240f$7b91f6c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308135830.02bfef68@pop.mindspring.com> <010901c52424$7cb6bb20$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308165753.02c865c8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Progress in brain implants Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:05:02 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <6c5kmD.A.K3H.p_iLCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" > Oh come now. That's a huge stretch! There is no proof that you can control > minds with this method, and even if you could it might take centuries to > achieve such results. Au contraire, not only good evidence, but old good evidence form classified R&D that indicates that there is much more to the story than what is available publicly. There is even a dedicated site for monitoring this research: http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/ Forty years ago Yale professor Dr. Jose Delgado's secret work was funded by the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI). directed towards the creation of a "psycho-civilized" society by use of a "stimoceiver." He later went public with some of it and lost his contracts as a result. Delgado's work was seminal, and his experiments on humans and animals demonstrated that electronic stimulation can excite extreme emotions including rage, lust and fatigue. In his paper "Intra-cerebral Radio Stimulation and recording in Completely Free Patients," Delgado observed that: "Radio Stimulation on different points in the amygdala and hippocampus in the four patients produced a variety of effects, including pleasant sensations, elation, deep thoughtful concentration, odd feelings, super relaxation (an essential precursor for deep hypnosis), colored visions, and other responses." This was very crude work 40 years ago, I shudder to think how far it has progressed in some government secret lab. But I bet that lab is in a building with five sides. Speaking in 1966, Delgado asserted that his research "supported the distasteful conclusion that motion, emotion and behavior can be directed by electrical forces, and that humans can be controlled like robots by push buttons." A few years later, before computers were even very powerful, Delgado predicted the day would soon arrive when a computer would be able to establish two-way radio communication with the brain - an event that first occurred in 1974. Lawrence Pinneo, a neurophysiologist and electronic engineer working for SRI - Stanford Research Institute and then a leading military contractor, "developed a computer system capable of reading a person's mind in a crude way. It correlated brain waves on an electroencephalograph with specific commands, and could control some activity based on that. It should be mentioned that in 10 years, a supercomputer can probably be put into the brain itself and the whole process localized. Delgado's "Physical Control of the Mind: Towards a Psychocivilised Society", does not appear on the net now. It once was, but seems to have been removed. Some excerpts are here, as well as other commentary: http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/delgado.htm A quick google search turns up other less authoritative stuff: http://www.rense.com/general17/imp.htm It would be interesting to know how far this work has progressed in secret labs, or in corporate labs as well. In keeping with the "farming out" thread, it would not surprise me to find out this kind of R&D is being handled in places like India, for Western corporate interests, perhaps even using one of the lower castes as test subjects. If you should hear of suicide bombers "returning the favor" to Hamas, in places Damascus or Gaza, you will probably be justified in suspecting that Israeli interests have been involved in mind control technology also. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 20:02:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2942eW1019868; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:02:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2942WlX019819; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:02:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:02:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vortex mystery Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 15:02:23 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2942TW1019764 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Mon, 07 Mar 2005 04:27:45 -0900: Hi, [snip] >Ignoring the coreolis force for a moment, the fallacy in the above >statement is the assumption that the instantaneous speed v of some small >chunk of the water changes as it approaches the drain. The speed of the >chunk remains constant at all times, except for the speed added by >converting gravitational potential energy PE to kinetic energy. Thus the >instantaneous linear kinetic energy KE = 1/2 m v^2 of the chunck remains >constant except for speed added by falling in the gravitational field. The >angular velocity w increases however, because w = v/r. Now, you might say >that for a rotational system KE = 1/2 I w^2, and w is increasing with >reduction in radius, so where does the free energy come from? Well, the >answer is that in a vortex the moment of inertia I of a chunk is not >constant. We have I = m R^2, and w = v/R, so when we substitute these into >KE = 1/2 I w^2 and we have: > > KE = 1/2 (m R^2) (v/R)^2 = 1/2 m v^2 > >which is constant, except for the PE converted to KE by falling down hill. >Since the KE of every chunk remains constant the energy of what remains in >the tank is the original gravitational potential energy PE plus KE less the >KE of what went down the drain. [snip] The above appears to describe the situation in the tank before the plug is pulled. IOW the water is rotating, and the calculations show the energy of any given chunk of water at any given radius. However, after the plug is pulled, the radius of any given chunk of water is constantly shrinking. If no angular momentum is passed out of the system, then for any given chunk of water mv1r1 = mv2r2, i.e. v2 = v1 x r1/r2. (m is the same before and after, because we are dealing in both cases with the identical chunk of water). IOW the velocity has to increase inversely with the radius, which leads back to the initial question, where does the energy come from, or where is the fallacy in the argument? Possible answer: Gravity forms a link connecting the water to the planet, and as gravity pulls the water into circular motion, the water in turn pulls back on the planet, causing it to rotate in the opposite direction. IOW angular momentum is passed to the planet. My problem with this explanation is that I'm not sure that gravity can transfer more angular momentum than it would have been able to do had the water initially been motionless. (BTW I think that when the water *is* initially motionless, the vortex starts at the centre and spreads out, with the velocity dropping appropriately). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 20:20:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j294JvW1026958; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:19:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j294JtIH026938; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:19:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:19:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Roomba as monster Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:21:34 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C5242D.2FEF0910" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308095726.02bbdee0 pop.mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C5242D.2FEF0910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bet you that same grandfathering logic won't help you when you are pulled over for speeding.... "but officer, I've been speeding through here for years without getting pulled over!". Just because some nut ball hasn't taken the idea and run with it yet does not mean no one ever will. How bad will you feel if someone does? -j -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 9:24 AM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: RE: Roomba as monster John Steck wrote: I agree with Horace. Why give basic creativity the advantage of years of experience or implantation knowledge. There is such a thing as "planting a seed". While there is little doubt to the sincere altruism of the regular contributors, the same can not be said for all the lurkers. Consequently a certain level of restraint should always be exercised. Widespread speculation about weapons applications for cold fusion began in March 1989. It is inconceivable that terrorists and criminals have not already considered everything I came up with -- and more. I truly believe that the only danger we face is that we will not take any of these threats seriously until it is too late. This debate reminds me of the Introduction to the classic book "How To Lie With Statistics:" "This book is a sort of primer in ways to use statistics to deceive. It may seem altogether too much like a manual for swindlers. Perhaps I can justify it in the manner of the retired burglar whose published reminiscences amounted to a graduate course in how to pick a lock and muffle a footfall: The crooks already know these tricks; honest men must learn them in self-defense." Horace Heffner wrote: > I feel fairly certain a countermeasures approach is ultimately not > feasible. I suspect you have not thought far enough ahead. The only > feasible long term approach to advanced technology in terrorist hands > probably is: > > (a) Establish world government I disagree. Perhaps it does not mean much, but I can dream up countermeasures as easily as I invented the problem in the first place. Of course the countermeasures would not be perfect, anymore than our defenses against conventional crime are. Some people would certainly be killed, but I think if we had a couple of years to prepare for an attack of Roomba monsters, we could stop 90% of them, and track them back to their sources. Conventional equipment such as radars could be adjusted to detect such small aircraft effectively, and if our side also had CF, we could make small drones that seek out and destroy the incoming aircraft, or continuously patrol remote areas at a low altitude searching for launches. Also, our intelligence agencies would be on the alert for someone ordering a hundred thousand peculiar looking aluminum tubes with wings. Actually, this discussion is not entirely imaginary. I happen to know some pilots here at Peachtree Dekalb Airport, including one who is fond of RC models. He knows someone who alerted the authorities when a ring of drug smugglers used large RC model airplanes to bring drugs into Florida from boats several miles out in the Atlantic. They flew them into a large net mounted on the roof of an apartment in the dead of night. It is not as difficult as it sounds. I think the airplanes were destroyed, but the payload was worth tens of thousands of dollars. - Jed ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C5242D.2FEF0910 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bet=20 you that same grandfathering logic won't help you when you are pulled = over for=20 speeding.... "but officer, I've been speeding through here for years = without=20 getting pulled over!".  Just because some nut ball = hasn't taken=20 the idea and run with it yet does not mean no one ever = will.  How=20 bad will you feel if someone does?
 
-j
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell=20 [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, = 2005 9:24=20 AM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Roomba as=20 monster

John Steck wrote:

I agree with = Horace.  Why give=20 basic creativity the advantage of years of
experience or = implantation=20 knowledge.  There is such a thing as "planting a
seed".  = While=20 there is little doubt to the sincere altruism of the = regular
contributors,=20 the same can not be said for all the lurkers.  Consequently = a
certain=20 level of restraint should always be = exercised.

Widespread=20 speculation about weapons applications for cold fusion began in March = 1989. It=20 is inconceivable that terrorists and criminals have not already = considered=20 everything I came up with -- and more. I truly believe that the only = danger we=20 face is that we will not take any of these threats seriously until it is = too=20 late.

This debate reminds me of the Introduction to the classic = book "How=20 To Lie With Statistics:"

"This book is a sort of = primer in=20 ways to use statistics to deceive. It may seem altogether too much like = a manual=20 for swindlers. Perhaps I can justify it in the manner of the retired = burglar=20 whose published reminiscences amounted to a graduate course in how to = pick a=20 lock and muffle a footfall: The crooks already know these tricks; honest = men=20 must learn them in self-defense."


Horace Heffner = wrote:

> I=20 feel fairly certain a countermeasures approach is ultimately not
> = feasible.  I suspect you have not thought far enough ahead. The=20 only
> feasible long term approach to advanced technology in = terrorist=20 hands
> probably is:
>
> (a) Establish world=20 government

I disagree. Perhaps it does not mean much, but I can = dream up=20 countermeasures as easily as I invented the problem in the first place. = Of=20 course the countermeasures would not be perfect, anymore than our = defenses=20 against conventional crime are. Some people would certainly be killed, = but I=20 think if we had a couple of years to prepare for an attack of Roomba = monsters,=20 we could stop 90% of them, and track them back to their sources. = Conventional=20 equipment such as radars could be adjusted to detect such small aircraft = effectively, and if our side also had CF, we could make small drones = that seek=20 out and destroy the incoming aircraft, or continuously patrol remote = areas at a=20 low altitude searching for launches. Also, our intelligence agencies = would be on=20 the alert for someone ordering a hundred thousand peculiar looking = aluminum=20 tubes with wings.

Actually, this discussion is not entirely = imaginary. I=20 happen to know some pilots here at Peachtree Dekalb Airport, including = one who=20 is fond of RC models. He knows someone who alerted the authorities when = a ring=20 of drug smugglers used large RC model airplanes to bring drugs into = Florida from=20 boats several miles out in the Atlantic. They flew them into a large net = mounted=20 on the roof of an apartment in the dead of night. It is not as difficult = as it=20 sounds. I think the airplanes were destroyed, but the payload was worth = tens of=20 thousands of dollars.

- Jed
 ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C5242D.2FEF0910-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 8 21:16:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j295Gb2d017020; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:16:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j295GWFd016982; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:16:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:16:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00a501c52353$d5be3f80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> References: <003a01c52270$9695ac00$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <00a501c52353$d5be3f80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:16:10 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j295GP2d016945 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene posted; > ><> On a lighter note, does writing about silicides mean >that one has a silly-side, and/or does a silicide-joke cause >one to laugh to death? Who says that scientists don't have a sense of humor? > >> Given what it costs to drill such a well, $5 gas >equivalent seems >> about right. I fail to see what economics has to do with >religion. > >Besides tithing, you mean? I suppose it has to do with using >the Church as a silent partner, The tithe only applies to farmers in the land of Israel. However we do have an obligation to G-d to support the teachers who feed us with his word. >just as the Fascists and >Nazis used the Catholic church, in order to rally voters >into re-electing your candidate - Equating any part of the Christian church with the Nazis who were pagans is quite disingenuous. > which is what has happened >here recently due to the neo-cons, who have somehow >conveniently forgotten that the main part of conservatism is >economic conservatism. I agree with the last part, however we are in a civilizational war with the forces of another god who wants to convert or destroy us. deficits are part of making war. > >....which means that Bill Clinton is really the only true >economic conservative in post-war America, being the only >President to deliver large budget surpluses and lower the >nation debt. His balanced budget was the result of an economic bubble. You haven't forgotten the Internet bubble, I assume? Clinton also cut budgets for the military and intelligence, which are part of today's budget deficits. > >And BTW, as mentioned before, I am not a Democrat; and >furthermore, if you are a voting conservative and under 40 >years of age, there is absolutely no doubt that I have voted >for more Republicans than you have, although very few since >Reagan, which is about the time that the neo-con >anti-fiscal-conservatives hi-jacked the party under the >sickening guise of moral duty, and handed it over completely >to oil interests and fundamnetalist-ass-kissing >spin-doctors. Until recently I voted Libertarian or Independent. W has merely slowed down the march to Socialism. When given a choice, he steers left more often than right. We Evangelicals see W's election as the will of G-d. But the case can be made that the Democrat Party lost because it has abandoned it's core by moving way to the left. Algore would have won if he would have carried his home state, but no, he wanted to suck up to the east coast liberals. Senator Flipflop might have won if he hadn't alienated his fellow Vietnam Veterans with his traitorous antics with the VVAW. The man was only consistent on one thing, continuing the infanticide and calling it choice. > >> When your car's tank is empty, you're just glad that you >can fill it >> up again. > >...until the glaciers start to melt in a "runaway" mode, >costal cities start to flood, artic species literally choke >to death from methane poisoning, all in about 2026 or >before, and by then there is little prospect of reversing >the trend. Yawn, I live on a hill. I have mentioned the rocks which are hitting the Sun and the volcanos under the ocean, IMHO, they are contributing way more to warming than our collective tail pipe emissions. Some thing is warming up the bottom of the oceans, and I don't think it's the Sun. > >> Given inflation, $2 gasoline is the equivalent of 20¢ >gasoline in 1960. > >It is a little disingenuous to state things like this when >any real economist not on the administration payroll, will >tell you that the only thing that has pushed inflation IS >oil prices. There has been a times 10 inflation in cars and houses. I can't make a living if I can't drive. No work, no eat. >Thast is, since the late sixties when the >petro-mafia helped found OPEC, because they knew they would >benefit even more than the Arabs. IOW everything else in the >US economy, Nonsense, OPEC controls the raw material. There is plenty more oil, it's just going to cost lots of money to get it. >because of productivity increase, would cost the >same or less now as it did in '67-68 had not it been for the >single item: oil prices (and the money supply, of course, >but that increase itself can be traced directly to oil >prices) Oil prices are a symptom of demand and supply. There are many factors driving inflation, chief among them is the increasing size of government and it's handmaidens the trial lawyers. Fuel prices have just kept up with inflation in general. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 01:31:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j299UqEJ009941; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 01:30:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j299UoGw009926; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 01:30:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 01:30:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:31:22 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:02 PM 3/9/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >The above appears to describe the situation in the tank before the >plug is pulled. IOW the water is rotating, and the calculations >show the energy of any given chunk of water at any given radius. > >However, after the plug is pulled, the radius of any given chunk >of water is constantly shrinking. If no angular momentum is passed >out of the system, then for any given chunk of water > >mv1r1 = mv2r2, i.e. v2 = v1 x r1/r2. (m is the same before and >after, because we are dealing in both cases with the identical >chunk of water). Yes, you are certainly right about this. Momentum is conserved. The speed of a chunck is thus not constant in a vortex, as I had assumed. In fact, I think in your imaginary tank the tangential speed is proportional to 1/r, and the vertical speed to 1/r as well. This is shown in Feynman's *Lectures on Physics*, Vol II, 40-10 ff. Fig. 40-12 is a great drawing of your tank, showing the surface countour of a sample vortex. The reason kinetic energy is increased is that work is done on the chunck as it moves inward. In the case of a cylinder of water the work is just the work of falling, m*g*h. The work is completely analogous to the work done by a skater pulling in her arms in order to spin faster. This F*d work supplies the needed kinetic energy to permit the reduction in radius R. In all cases the angular momentum L = I * w is conserved, so no torque upon the earth is required to gain the angular velocity. > >IOW the velocity has to increase inversely with the radius, which >leads back to the initial question, where does the energy come >from, or where is the fallacy in the argument? It comes from gravity. > >Possible answer: Gravity forms a link connecting the water to the >planet, and as gravity pulls the water into circular motion, the >water in turn pulls back on the planet, causing it to rotate in >the opposite direction. No, there need be no link to the earth for the major part of the kinetic energy gained. Angular momentum is conserved internal to the vortex, so any exchange of angular momentum with the earth would violate COAM. However, there is indeed a link to the earth for the gain in angular momentum that occurs due to the coreolis force, though this is small. >IOW angular momentum is passed to the >planet. Only due to coreolis effects, which are very small for ordinary tanks. >My problem with this explanation is that I'm not sure that >gravity can transfer more angular momentum than it would have been >able to do had the water initially been motionless. The water is not motionless though. Do the experiment if you doubt it. I did it in 1962, so I think it should still work, even in Australia. Water spins in the direction it spun when the tank was last affected. >(BTW I think that when the water *is* initially motionless, the >vortex starts at the centre and spreads out, with the velocity >dropping appropriately). I think it does that in all cases. The water starts to fall in the center first. Falling is how the kinetic energy is gained to shorten tha radius. The vortex cone is on an angle that slopes downward toward the hole. As a chunk slides downward the radius decreases and the kinetic energy increases, and momentum stays fixed. I hope I got it all right this time! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 06:08:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29E8TEJ009870; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 06:08:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29E8Qsi009787; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 06:08:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 06:08:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050309090651.02b54240 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:08:11 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Progress in brain implants In-Reply-To: <014801c52433$44290c40$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> References: <20050308173132.10248.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> <008101c5240f$7b91f6c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308135830.02bfef68 pop.mindspring.com> <010901c52424$7cb6bb20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308165753.02c865c8 pop.mindspring.com> <014801c52433$44290c40$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_705609==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_705609==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jones Beene wrote: >Au contraire, not only good evidence, but old good evidence >form classified R&D that indicates that there is much more >to the story than what is available publicly. There is even >a dedicated site for monitoring this research: >http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/ > >Forty years ago Yale professor Dr. Jose Delgado's secret >work was funded by the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI). >directed towards the creation of a "psycho-civilized" >society by use of a "stimoceiver." Wow. I had no idea. That's amazing if true (if replicated). You wonder how the brain would ever evolve a mechanism for this. - Jed --=====================_705609==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jones Beene wrote:

Au contraire, not only good evidence, but old good evidence
form classified R&D that indicates that there is much more
to the story than what is available publicly. There is even
a dedicated site for monitoring this research:
http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/

Forty years ago Yale professor Dr. Jose Delgado's secret
work was funded by the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI).
directed towards the creation of a "psycho-civilized"
society by use of a "stimoceiver."

Wow. I had no idea. That's amazing if true (if replicated).

You wonder how the brain would ever evolve a mechanism for this.

- Jed
--=====================_705609==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 06:29:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29ESxEJ018130; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 06:29:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29ESvhm018107; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 06:28:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 06:28:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050309092115.02b52e58 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:28:36 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Roomba as monster In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050308095726.02bbdee0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: >Just because some nut ball hasn't taken the idea and run with it yet does >not mean no one ever will. How bad will you feel if someone does? I would feel the U.S. government is 100% responsible because it ignored CF and the *obvious* threat that it represents. It is equally obvious that IRobot roomba technology may evolve into a serious threat, but the government is not ignoring that. On the contrary, it is paying IRobot to develop battlefield robots. A single nut ball could not possibly do what I have described, even with conventional fossil fuel over a short range. Even an organized group as large as the Aum cult could not do it. It would take $100 million in development. Only a few terrorist groups and nations such as North Korea have those kinds of resources. That is why it is quite unlikely, as I said. Unlikely, but not unthinkable. You never know when a breakthrough in CF might occur, and it would not take a huge breakthrough to make this possible. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 06:41:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29EfOEJ022585; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 06:41:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29EfKtj022552; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 06:41:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 06:41:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ozinnSKgJGNX2DG9eMFVPEWPiJZ+VP7Sih7r7M4v+hcnc4ZN2d4nyvyi5WFhaLw+3PNUPe5FeqYXVJm6aZQsa4xggUaTIUfSA1DNAWWRDqq2Zi+n9Qc7Ah/2ewpPK7FN4mbwQ4EvZ4zU6kw8R/N6QolAa6AAPexHNjRaHvC4+vw= ; Message-ID: <20050309144111.40628.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 06:41:11 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: RE: Roomba as monster To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-238368637-1110379271=:38580" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-238368637-1110379271=:38580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have a good friend who is writing the software integrating the automated battlefield. She says she is currently networking in excess of 30,000 elements including a 30 caliber machine gun toting Segway derivative. Jed Rothwell wrote: John Steck wrote: On the contrary, it is paying IRobot to develop battlefield robots. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --0-238368637-1110379271=:38580 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I have a good friend who is writing the software integrating the automated battlefield.  She says she is currently networking in excess of 30,000 elements including a 30 caliber machine gun toting Segway derivative.

Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com> wrote:

John Steck wrote:

On the contrary, it is paying IRobot to
develop battlefield robots.

Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --0-238368637-1110379271=:38580-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 06:53:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29Er1EJ027115; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 06:53:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29EqtKf027068; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 06:52:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 06:52:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050309094248.02b54240 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:52:04 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3371281==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_3371281==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This discussion of Roomba monsters is speculative. The threat of global warming is probably real, but unfortunately people assume it will happen in the distant future, and they are seldom inclined to worry about things that will happen in 50 or a hundred years. What should frighten people here and now is the cost of gasoline, which is expected to be $2.10 per gallon this summer. Government and industry are outrageously irresponsible for not funding cold fusion research under these circumstances. If a breakthrough is made in cold fusion, and that fact became generally known, it will have an immediate impact on the cost of oil. The cost of a commodity like oil is largely based on future expectations. If oil producers think that cold fusion will begin to hurt their sales 10 or 20 years, they will begin selling off their stocks even now, and they will lower their prices. I think the transition would be much faster, and cold fusion would begin to replace oil five years after the first practical device is developed in the laboratory. - Jed --=====================_3371281==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" This discussion of Roomba monsters is speculative. The threat of global warming is probably real, but unfortunately people assume it will happen in the distant future, and they are seldom inclined to worry about things that will happen in 50 or a hundred years. What should frighten people here and now is the cost of gasoline, which is expected to be $2.10 per gallon this summer. Government and industry are outrageously irresponsible for not funding cold fusion research under these circumstances.

If a breakthrough is made in cold fusion, and that fact became generally known, it will have an immediate impact on the cost of oil. The cost of a commodity like oil is largely based on future expectations. If oil producers think that cold fusion will begin to hurt their sales 10 or 20 years, they will begin selling off their stocks even now, and they will lower their prices. I think the transition would be much faster, and cold fusion would begin to replace oil five years after the first practical device is developed in the laboratory.

- Jed
 --=====================_3371281==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 07:20:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29FK8EJ010143; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 07:20:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29FJsLN009953; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 07:19:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 07:19:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Z1NaKLJrm8H4oEm6Dw3VaRvggyNQy58zNSivXfIfExZZRM+BfzZjG18sqbqopqjD9AqyLiy8nbKQ2S8fSs/DUl1teX9XQg3wn7G6GZHd2OZ7ymsq+jmCMlLGIx8xMnR9pjGCB4lttjlbXXP6tJdiSjk2UwmgvmhB9Z3rhgoESj8= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:19:47 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050309094248.02b54240 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050309094248.02b54240 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j29FJlEJ009872 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: wow. youve got good gas prices. im in az. its 2.00 right now, expected to peak at 3.00 im sure the people in europe already paying about 5.00 a gallon hearts' bleed for us... On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:52:04 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > This discussion of Roomba monsters is speculative. The threat of global > warming is probably real, but unfortunately people assume it will happen in > the distant future, and they are seldom inclined to worry about things that > will happen in 50 or a hundred years. What should frighten people here and > now is the cost of gasoline, which is expected to be $2.10 per gallon this > summer. Government and industry are outrageously irresponsible for not > funding cold fusion research under these circumstances. > > If a breakthrough is made in cold fusion, and that fact became generally > known, it will have an immediate impact on the cost of oil. The cost of a > commodity like oil is largely based on future expectations. If oil producers > think that cold fusion will begin to hurt their sales 10 or 20 years, they > will begin selling off their stocks even now, and they will lower their > prices. I think the transition would be much faster, and cold fusion would > begin to replace oil five years after the first practical device is > developed in the laboratory. > > - Jed > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 07:28:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29FRpEJ014509; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 07:27:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29FRoe7014486; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 07:27:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 07:27:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004501c524bc$62658880$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050309144111.40628.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Roomba as monster Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 07:26:36 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <8p17tC.A.NiD.1XxLCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" > I have a good friend who is writing the software integrating the automated battlefield. She says she is currently networking in excess of 30,000 elements including a 30 caliber machine gun toting Segway derivative. Did she program any "hunter-seekers" into her sim ? Talk about a great battlefield weapon... puts roomba/zoomba to shame, big time. Even G. Lucas borrowed the idea, and if it is good enough for Obi Wan... imagine a nano-jet version of same coming in at 300 mph - even a (non-spiced) Paul, or any average Muad'dib, would have a hard time snagging one of those, tipped with meta-cyanide... and what about the perfect battlefield disguise... you know, "face dancers" looking like your own troops... (not the other kind, naughty boy)? J. Bene Tleilax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 08:15:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29GFIEJ002919; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:15:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29GFGI1002899; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:15:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:15:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <008301c524c3$02b89100$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050308173132.10248.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> <008101c5240f$7b91f6c0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308135830.02bfef68@pop.mindspring.com> <010901c52424$7cb6bb20$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050308165753.02c865c8@pop.mindspring.com> <014801c52433$44290c40$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> <6.2.0.14.2.20050309090651.02b54240@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: MKULTRA and mind control Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:14:02 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <3hwfvD.A.Nt.TEyLCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Wow. I had no idea. That's amazing if true (if replicated). > You wonder how the brain would ever evolve a mechanism for this. > - Jed Given that the human brain uses analog electrical (EM) signals just like radio, and given that the first radio was aimed at simulating those mental signals for sound and music, it is likely that we are just copying natures's way, but now have figured out how to bypass the sensory input of the ear and gone for the most direct route. Also, I found this new item of interest: Its been nearly 2 1/2 years since this court ruling, and nothing seems to have come of it. I wonder if Herr Ashcroft stepped in aftrwards. http://www.rcfp.org/news/2002/0819kellyv.html CIA must disclose some operational files A Washington, D.C., reporter may view operational files on mind control experiments by the Central Intelligence Agency, a federal district court ruled in early August. 2002 A federal district court in Washington, D.C. granted reporter John F. Kelly limited but highly unusual access to some Central Intelligence Agency operational files in his request for records concerning the federal government's mind control experiments of the 1950s. Judge Thomas Hogan ruled that the CIA must search and review its operational files for information concerning the MKULTRA project, and make all releasable information from those files available to Kelly. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 08:18:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29GHsEJ004053; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:17:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29GHqlW004027; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:17:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:17:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 07:18:10 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58430 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It would be pretty neat to have a long time do this experiment right on the equator to see if it is possible to obtain a vortex flow with only radial motion visible. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 08:19:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29GIbEJ004325; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:18:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29GI5gG004107; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:18:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:18:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=YkB+ph20sKhniNXBa6k88W1duZJCIsfpAfXRLGjY3YlvcUUoT1B4j7LhcsDOqps8U+yGU2dMRmNJDlsTU5DanuOa9716a3TKzJdiGkS4an25W6xs/IL9QPY99d7lyMQsdGP/GzQ5YjMvwGNhEwACBHNbJKa5FF8oSZG8tYmKorA= ; Message-ID: <20050309161748.91882.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:17:47 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Roomba as monster To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2063139255-1110385067=:89437" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58431 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-2063139255-1110385067=:89437 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii As a matter of fact . . . She won't talk a lot about it since she is working under a TS clearance; but, the elements include air, surface and subsurface bots. She is sure many of the elements are existing or in development because they give her performance criteria that does not change. Many do change as development progresses. Dragonflys with smart bullet/minimissles. Birds that talk to surface bots. Autonomous killers a la PKD's "Second Variety" . . . Jones Beene wrote: Did she program any "hunter-seekers" into her sim ? --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --0-2063139255-1110385067=:89437 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
As a matter of fact . . . 
 
She won't talk a lot about it since she is working under a TS clearance; but, the elements include air, surface and subsurface bots.  She is sure many of the elements are existing or in development because they give her performance criteria that does not change.  Many do change as development progresses.
 
Dragonflys with smart bullet/minimissles.
 
Birds that talk to surface bots.
 
Autonomous killers a la PKD's "Second Variety"
 
. . .

Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:
Did she program any "hunter-seekers" into her sim ?

Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --0-2063139255-1110385067=:89437-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 08:24:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29GNkEJ006514; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:23:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29GNgCW006488; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:23:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:23:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050309111819.02b59aa0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 11:23:03 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050309094248.02b54240 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_8804609==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_8804609==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed leaking pen wrote: >im sure the people in europe already paying about 5.00 a gallon >hearts' bleed for us... So do people in the US, when you factor in the cost of war. Five dollars plus the lives of 1,500 young men and women. (Maybe it isn't exactly a war for oil, but we would not be in Iraq if there were not oil there.) - Jed --=====================_8804609==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" leaking pen wrote:

im sure the people in europe already paying about 5.00 a gallon
hearts' bleed for us...

So do people in the US, when you factor in the cost of war. Five dollars plus the lives of 1,500 young men and women.

(Maybe it isn't exactly a war for oil, but we would not be in Iraq if there were not oil there.)

- Jed
--=====================_8804609==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 08:32:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29GVtEJ009700; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:31:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29GVqXJ009681; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:31:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:31:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a601c524c5$577a0960$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050309161748.91882.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Beyond Dune, Dick & Roomba Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:30:43 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <6V5l_.A.MXC.4TyLCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58433 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" > Dragonflys with smart bullet/minimissles. > Birds that talk to surface bots. > Autonomous killers a la PKD's "Second Variety" http://www.aaai.org/AITopics/html/archvE1.html Go down the page a few clicks to "Robots for No Man's Land" (I'd be willing to wager that "Yuki Noguchi" is surely a clever alias for someone we know under a different sobriquet, even if that too is an alias) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 08:52:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29GqMEJ017649; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:52:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29GqKIK017631; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:52:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:52:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050309114945.02c03270 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 11:51:58 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Roomba as monster In-Reply-To: <20050309144111.40628.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050309144111.40628.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_10531328==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <86jdeB.A.QTE.CnyLCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_10531328==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Terry Blanton wrote: >I have a good friend who is writing the software integrating the automated >battlefield. She says she is currently networking in excess of 30,000 >elements including a 30 caliber machine gun toting Segway derivative. How charming! The Segway evolved from wheelchair technology, and now we are going to use it to slaughter people. - Jed --=====================_10531328==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Terry Blanton wrote:

I have a good friend who is writing the software integrating the automated battlefield.  She says she is currently networking in excess of 30,000 elements including a 30 caliber machine gun toting Segway derivative.

How charming! The Segway evolved from wheelchair technology, and now we are going to use it to slaughter people.

- Jed
--=====================_10531328==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 09:19:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29HIiEJ031205; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:18:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29HIeZd031173; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:18:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:18:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002001c524cb$f728e2a0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050309094248.02b54240 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:17:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C524CB.F15D1EE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C524CB.F15D1EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed wrote <> We pay the equivalent of $5.80 a US gallon over here in "low tax area" = Jersey. It's not scary... but more people are buying advanced diesel cars ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C524CB.F15D1EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jed wrote
<<What=20 should frighten people here and now is the cost of gasoline, which is = expected=20 to be $2.10 per gallon this summer>>
 
 
We pay the equivalent of $5.80 a US = gallon over=20 here in "low tax area" Jersey. It's not scary... but more people are = buying=20 advanced diesel cars
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C524CB.F15D1EE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 10:24:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29INtEJ028394; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:23:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29INpBv028364; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:23:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:23:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=KrVQXGjrbdYezNv2frW0JYRoOWQfCf6r5LEQXekHmRPxdTTI8daJ4J7F0P5LrbwsP5wpoBAQwawlgS0YQGq+QI+ZMy8KpxTNOfdV3QxG75eK0sz+IguS3BoKsaRRigGC+o2Bf1A8xHc7/QfPMgJGFDWq+yAcz02kQ4GQw9FiYYU= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:23:47 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Roomba as monster In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050309114945.02c03270 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <20050309144111.40628.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050309114945.02c03270 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j29INkEJ028330 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: yeah, i know someone who was working with a team handling the recoil reaiming figures for a three wheel platform who was dealing with a software package that tracked where rounds might potentially go to avoid hitting other elements. probably the same software. he was telling me about simulations that were done that were just amazing, identifying targets, assigning an attack vehicle and vector, clearing explosion radii, making sure you dont hit other friendly elements. very cool stuff. On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 11:51:58 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: > > I have a good friend who is writing the software integrating the automated > battlefield. She says she is currently networking in excess of 30,000 > elements including a 30 caliber machine gun toting Segway derivative. > How charming! The Segway evolved from wheelchair technology, and now we are > going to use it to slaughter people. > > - Jed > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 10:31:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29IULET031776; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:30:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29HeIDb007933; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:40:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:40:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <023a01c524ce$e169d700$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: OT: one Dum Gai Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:39:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0237_01C5248B.D2E982E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0237_01C5248B.D2E982E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Slow day... waiting for a thermos full of LN to boil off.... For some unknown reason I was taken by the name Yuki Noguchi, who wrote = the piece: "Robots for No Man's Land" but which after a brief googling = does appear legit - even though I bet he is a sloppy dresser: http://tinyurl.com/4tyer Anyway, I wanted to share with the Vo-OT reader, a quirky name-phreaking = smile, and my name isn't even Smiley (except today) Maybe the initial suspicion of Yuki was related to the more famous = Noguchi (of sculpture and design fame), who had to change his name from = Gilmore, since his father (a famous Japanese poet) had left the states = before he was born. But this name does appear to be somewhat the Nip-quivalent of "names = that work" ... those names that surface all the time, giving us a smile = because they reflect on the real occupation or preoccupation of the = namee... and were also made famous in the late Herb Caen's column in the = SFChron... i.e. the mechanic named Smith is too obvious but there was a = recent paper on nano-technology by a professor named Smalley, or the = proverbial Law Firm of Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe. The kanji derivatives would have some interesting insight into the = hidden meaning of the name, if I got it right. In Japan, it seems that = the universal "essence" that pervades all of the Nature, what new-agers = here call "chi", has the name "ki" ... therefore "Yuki" might mean a = "transfusion of Ki," not dissimilar to a blood transfusion (yuketsu). = "guchi" means entrance, door, mouth... so you get the picture of why = this 'coulda-been' a chosen nom-de-plume for any ultimate-truthseeker = (or investigative journalist). However, in this case, Yuki Noguchi does appear to be a real DC based = reporter... not a self-appointed guru like Sun Yung Moon (which is, BTW, = almost his given name). And for a further smile (except for the non PC = use of the word "oriental"): http://chinaunique.com/name2.htm Signed Dum Gai Smiley ------=_NextPart_000_0237_01C5248B.D2E982E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Slow day... waiting for a thermos full of LN to boil off....
 
For some unknown reason I was taken by the name Yuki Noguchi, who = wrote the=20 piece: "Robots for No Man's Land" but which after a brief googling does = appear=20 legit - even though I bet he is a sloppy dresser:
 
Anyway, I wanted to share with the Vo-OT reader, a quirky = name-phreaking=20 smile, and my name isn't even Smiley (except today)
 
Maybe the initial suspicion of Yuki was related to = the more=20 famous Noguchi (of sculpture and design fame), who had to change his = name from=20 Gilmore, since his father (a famous Japanese poet) had left the = states=20 before he was born.
 
But this name does appear to be somewhat the Nip-quivalent of = "names that=20 work" ... those names that surface all the time, giving us a smile = because they=20 reflect on the real occupation or preoccupation of the namee... and were = also made famous in the late Herb Caen's column in the = SFChron... i.e.=20 the mechanic named Smith is too obvious but there was = a recent=20 paper on nano-technology by a professor named Smalley, or the proverbial = Law=20 Firm of Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe.
 
The kanji derivatives would have some interesting insight into the = hidden=20 meaning of the name, if I got it right. In Japan, it seems that the = universal=20 "essence" that pervades all of the Nature, what new-agers here call=20 "chi", has the name "ki" ... therefore "Yuki"=20 might mean a "transfusion of Ki," not dissimilar to a = blood=20 transfusion (yuketsu). "guchi" means entrance, door, mouth... so = you get=20 the picture of why this 'coulda-been'  a chosen nom-de-plume for = any=20 ultimate-truthseeker (or investigative journalist).
 
However, in this case, Yuki Noguchi does appear to be a real DC = based=20 reporter... not a self-appointed guru like Sun Yung Moon (which is, BTW, = almost=20 his given name). And for a further smile (except for the non PC use of = the word=20 "oriental"):
 
http://chinaunique.com/name2.ht= m
 
Signed
 
Dum Gai Smiley
------=_NextPart_000_0237_01C5248B.D2E982E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 10:45:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29IigEJ009331; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:44:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29IicV2009290; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:44:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:44:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rrac5$nkuas9 mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.90,151,1107752400"; d="scan'208"; a="793717641:sNHT13391572" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: OT: The will of God Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 18:44:14 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A recent comment by the esteemed Mr. Malloy got me to thinking... John F. Kennedy said in is inaugural speech that God's work must truly be our own. When Abraham Lincoln was asked about his views on religion he stated that when he did bad he felt bad, and when he did good he felt good: That, Lincoln concluded, was his religion. The problem I always have when I hear catchy little phrases like: "We Evangelicals see W's [Bush's] election as the will of G-d", or "It is Allah's will" is that making such statements essentially absolves those who state this point-of-view from believing they have any personal responsibility in the manifestation of "god's will". All they can hope of is that God/Allah loving, that he is merciful - that God/Allah might on occasion even be aware of their point of view. But in the end all they can really do throughout their wretched sinful lives is try to stay on the correct/winning side and hope they can perform enough good-deeds so that when they eventually shuffle off their mortal coil they might have bought enough brownie points to gain entrance into Heaven, or Paradise, or Valhalla. IMHO, the belief that certain historical events of a political nature are the result of "god's will" preaches the devastating philosophy that we are all powerless when we come face-to-face with the "will" of god. It also preaches the belief that we are separate from God, that we are all essentially cannon fodder to be used by God's will. I really don't give a rat's ass if some wish to subscribe to a philosophy that preaches we are separate from God. You make your bed, you sleep in it. What I DO give a rat's ass about is that when one feels they are powerless in the face of the "Will of God", this inevitably invites others to take control over their powerless lives. All the better if these self-proclaimed leaders state they are on a first name basis with God, or Allah. As human beings, most of us (if we're lucky) will be confronted with events in our lives that teach us the humility of what it feels like to feel utterly powerless. It is during these rare moments of agony that we are given a precious opportunity to strip ourselves of all the barriers and defenses we meticulously built up during our lives. It is during such humbling events that we hopefully discover untapped resources from within, but only if one is willing to let go of all that they believe what makes them who they are. Said differently: It is when one confronts the annihilation of one's soul that one is given the rare opportunity to question the underlying Blueprints of Life - for which one in the past had always assumed had been carved in stone. Regardless of whether one is an Atheist or not, I would hope most individuals would be able to find deep down within themselves a spark of divinity, or least the proxy of divinity. I hope this would give themselves permission to accept the possibility that perhaps it is inherent in each and every individual that we ALL know "know" what is good and what is bad - that we don't have to be told what is good and bad by leaders who claim to speak on our behalf. It seems to me that justifications for instigating a holy-war, or the belief that the election of a recent president was the result of the "will of God" essentially slaps God in the face. It strips away the responsibility of All who participated in the manifestation of God's will. As for electing Bush, I certainly didn't vote for him. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 10:51:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29IoxEJ012153; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:50:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29IouNq012127; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:50:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:50:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = dcf35902a696aec8ab4a512a7c111b8b Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050309185045.DDDE7AFABD xprdmailfe5.nwk.excite.com> Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:50:45 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- On Wed 03/09, leaking pen < itsatrap gmail.com > wrote: > wow. youve got good gas prices. im in az. its 2.00 right now, > expected to peak at 3.00 > im sure the people in europe already paying about 5.00 a gallon > hearts' bleed for us... Now let's review. The evil Big Oil Petrocracy has given us gasoline prices of $2 or so a gallon. On the other hand the, Enlightened Socialist Paradises of Europe have delivered near $6 per gallon gasoline. Hmmm..... M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 11:05:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29J58EJ017723; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:05:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29J54uq017683; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:05:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:05:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050309135745.02b4ea58 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 14:04:49 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline In-Reply-To: <20050309185045.DDDE7AFABD xprdmailfe5.nwk.excite.com> References: <20050309185045.DDDE7AFABD xprdmailfe5.nwk.excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_18502406==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58440 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_18502406==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Michael Foster wrote: >Now let's review. The evil Big Oil Petrocracy has given us gasoline >prices of $2 or so a gallon. On the other hand the, Enlightened >Socialist Paradises of Europe have delivered near $6 per gallon >gasoline. Hmmm..... I do not think much of socialism but that is a mis-characterization. The big evil oil petrocracy in the US has given us gasoline prices of $5 dollars a gallon: $2 paid by the customer and $3 stolen from the taxpayers, or paid for in blood by our soldiers. We pay as much as anyone but the cost is hidden by our tax system, by hidden subsidies and depletion allowances, lax pollution standards, and by forcing the public to pay for rich people's SUVs. If anything, the U.S. system is far too socialistic. Or you might say it combines the worst features of capitalism and communism. - Jed --=====================_18502406==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Michael Foster wrote:

Now let's review. The evil Big Oil Petrocracy has given us gasoline
prices of $2 or so a gallon.  On the other hand the, Enlightened
Socialist Paradises of Europe have delivered near $6 per gallon
gasoline.  Hmmm.....

I do not think much of socialism but that is a mis-characterization. The big evil oil petrocracy in the US has given us gasoline prices of $5 dollars a gallon: $2 paid by the customer and $3 stolen from the taxpayers, or paid for in blood by our soldiers. We pay as much as anyone but the cost is hidden by our tax system, by hidden subsidies and depletion allowances, lax pollution standards, and by forcing the public to pay for rich people's SUVs. If anything, the U.S. system is far too socialistic. Or you might say it combines the worst features of capitalism and communism.

- Jed
--=====================_18502406==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 11:07:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29J7ZEJ019274; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:07:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29J7WkQ019240; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:07:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:07:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Nvmbe2nZaAQSpMYkeg2UPcJDS3qdEmLtdYG1un+tCL22Ljt6cTXpYgmqBGP/iT8wyN2eGnPrGrwcycF22fWmfxYZ2x6P1Jbds4nncY+SIjJxBn4qrW05tqkuKFtWzahK2KbqPoavv8Zxr221+jgBmoh7574hwVARbjtNtgUPV4E= ; Message-ID: <20050309190709.42825.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:07:08 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: OT: one Dum Gai To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-555317194-1110395228=:41949" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58441 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-555317194-1110395228=:41949 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii SHE is rather cute: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A44420-2005Jan3.html See piccy top right. Jones Beene wrote: BODY { BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Arial}- even though I bet he is a sloppy dresser: __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-555317194-1110395228=:41949 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
SHE is rather cute:
 
 
See piccy top right.

Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:
- even though I bet he is a sloppy dresser:

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-555317194-1110395228=:41949-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 11:37:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29JaaEJ001549; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:36:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29JaWXw001508; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:36:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:36:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <026101c524df$225db280$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050309190709.42825.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: OT: one Dum Gai Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:35:21 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58442 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > SHE is rather cute: Yup. Quite cute. Gender assumptions can get Dum Gais in big trouble... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 11:59:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29JxKEJ010555; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:59:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29JxEWZ010507; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:59:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:59:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=naNJHBHV2gBBoTmS3GjQC+bt42GQw/qElbRhiA7WX/IA9O7s+U30I+6moBuzS1M0rYuZrLeEVcHUt7Mj15IMMCUMYf7EWA6Met125cAOS9GYc+qyryncnOghxR27k4d7x1tga5j9FHPgN19Vy6PWE7H2GG9wkjvlvwlltvzT1w8= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:59:03 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050309135745.02b4ea58 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <20050309185045.DDDE7AFABD xprdmailfe5.nwk.excite.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050309135745.02b4ea58 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j29Jx2EJ010435 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58443 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: you might say it combines the worst features of capitalism and communism. as a someone who is a communist and a free market supporter (ones a government, ones an economy, there IS a difference) i agree completly. ive been saying that for years. On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 14:04:49 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Michael Foster wrote: > > Now let's review. The evil Big Oil Petrocracy has given us gasoline > prices of $2 or so a gallon. On the other hand the, Enlightened > Socialist Paradises of Europe have delivered near $6 per gallon > gasoline. Hmmm..... > I do not think much of socialism but that is a mis-characterization. The big > evil oil petrocracy in the US has given us gasoline prices of $5 dollars a > gallon: $2 paid by the customer and $3 stolen from the taxpayers, or paid > for in blood by our soldiers. We pay as much as anyone but the cost is > hidden by our tax system, by hidden subsidies and depletion allowances, lax > pollution standards, and by forcing the public to pay for rich people's > SUVs. If anything, the U.S. system is far too socialistic. Or you might say > it combines the worst features of capitalism and communism. > > - Jed > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 12:32:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29KWdEJ024369; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:32:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29KWVeN024305; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:32:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:32:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050309203205.00686e0c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:32:05 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Destry Rides Again. Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58444 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In "Running Money" I came across this excerpt which is relevant to something Horselover Fats posted on Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:06:40 Kessler writes, ================================================== "The guy who told me he looked at only the second derivative of industrial production was onto something. Because information is distributed in milliseconds, there is no time advantage anymore. You have to be ahead of news. You have to look not at change but at how fast change is changing. Your old calculus teacher would remind you, the first derivative is speed. The second derivative is acceleration. There are so many barriers to change. Some are technical, some are based on silly government regulations. But who cares - barriers are barriers. As long as you can find a barrier to invest against, you can make money when the barrier breaks, when change accelerates. Most hedge fund guys take the other side of a trade when they know something no one else does, i.e., investing because others don't know. That's their edge. When you think long-term, the edge is really investing because others *can't* know. I suppose others could know if they thought hard enough, but, oddly, no one does. It's not the actual declining cost of power or transportation, chips or bandwidth, etc., that is hard to figure out. It's the change they enable. These concepts are hard to grasp. It's that nasty second derivative stuff. It's not the amount of change, but the change in the rate of change. Confused? Me too. It's why there are few physicists and why people quit science after high school. It's just too hard to think about. >From the side of the highway, you can't tell which cars are going a constant speed and which are accelerating. But from inside the car, you can feel the seat press against you when you gun it. That's probably the first lesson I learned: to do well, you've got to be in the car, not on the sidelines watching." ================================================== Quite so. And now let's proceed to the epic "Horselover Fats Rides Again" Horselover wrote:-. ================================================== Also, you mentioned Jerk and Jounce ( sounds like a b-list rap group ). I've also puzzled over the physical meaning of these terms. It's rather like trying to imagine higher dimensional shapes. One dimension up is about all I can muster, which in this case is Jerk. Standing on a carousel, with the speed increasing and decreasing sinusoidally, ought to do it. Perhaps a better term would be "projectile vomiting" rather than jerk, huh??? (grin). ================================================== Now Kessler realises that you have got to put yourself in the car. But Horselover has gone one better hasn't he. He has put himself on a carousel. If he nails a car seat to the floor he can experience acceleration on a continuous basis whereas in a car travelling in a straight line Kessler can only experience it on a sinusoidal basis - or to be more general a cyclical basis. But if the carousel governor gets castrated (the mechanism, not the owner) and the music goes faster and faster, though Horselover will experience increasing acceleration, he will also get very giddy and might even start, in his own words, "projectile vomiting". This is because the increasing acceleration sensed by the nerves in his back is monotonically coupled to the increasing rotation sensed by his semi circular canals (SCC). Kessler doesn't have this problem. How can we uncouple these two sensation to prevent Horselover from getting sick. Well one solution I rather fancy would be to operate on Fats and cut out his SCCs ;-) . that together with panel nailed round the outside of the carousel should do the trick. But I'm sure Horselover would prefer the solution familiar to all science fiction fans, namely, we just make the Carousel big enough to reduce the rotational speed below the threshold of perception. So we have now produced the "pure" sensation of continuous acceleration by reducing the rotation until we can't sense it. What about the next step? What about rate of change of acceleration? What about jerk? Well, if Kessler is accelerating over speed bumps he will experience plenty of cyclical jerk along with his cyclical acceleration. And even though we may have given Fats continuous acceleration without perceptible rotation by making the carousel big enough, he will still experience cyclical jerk from the floor of the carousel going up and down as carousels often do. Now in order not to confuse the reader more than necessary I will substitute a large 1st order gyro for the carousel and four second order gyros to simulate the up and down motion of the gyro floor. Because by now Horselover Fats has suffered enough we will substitute the saloon chanteuse Frenchy (Marlene Dietrich) who has taken umbrage at Horselover's indifferent reaction to her charms and vows to make a fool of him. The position of Frenchy on the second order gyro is shown by the flag in http://www.grimer2.freeserve.co.uk/pge25.htm Next we can give Marlene the *Jerry Bounce* (jounce) sensation by substituting the 2nd order gyros by pairs of 3rd gyros {I would have continued with quad gyros but the drawing was getting more crowded than Diana's marriage ;-) ] http://www.grimer2.freeserve.co.uk/pge26.htm This process can be continued indefinitely and Dietrich can be subjected in principle to whatever order of motion we care to imagine. But consider this. We are already subject to higher order derivative motions for, We are orbiting the earth Which is orbiting the sun Which is orbiting the galaxy Which is orbiting ......... And I've probably left out quite a few stages. So we are actually experiencing d[^n]L / dt[^n] motion. Fortunately we don't have any sense mechanisms to detect d[^(n-1)]L / dt[^(n-1)] and lower order motions or we would be very sick indeed with mal de terre, etc. Clearly, down to the scale of man, there is a relationship between scale and derivative motion. The smaller the object the higher the derivative motion. It is not unreasonable to infer that on the scale of molecules and atoms and nuclei and .... the objects are subject to even higher derivative motions than we are. We can produce a few orders of these motions artificially with mechanical devices of the type illustrated providing the strength of our material allows. It would seem that these higher derivatives already exist naturally. Also, our senses are very limited in the motions we can detect but materials have senses we do not possess. We cannot detect the earths orbital motion but Foucault's Pendulum can. We cannot detect radio waves, etc., etc. Once one gets away from the tyranny of Cartesian geometry - the inanity of imagining that space only has three dimensions, and the utter stupidity of thinking that time only has a single dimension, then one can start thinking about the higher order derivatives of motion and how to put them to use. One might even be able to use such insights for beating the Stock Market - Now there's a thought. To lock oneself into 4 dimensions is like sticking to the shape of the 60's TV screen ( [x^4 + y^4] = 1 with suitable scaling of x and y). To get with it one needs to think in terms of much higher powers like [x^64 + y^64] = 1. for example, which will give us a nice second millennium rectangular screen. Cheers Frank Grimer ===================================== Big whorls have little whorls That feed on their velocity, And little whorls have lesser whorls And so on to viscosity. - Lewis F. Richardson - ===================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 13:55:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29LtFEJ025729; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:55:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29LtBGH025693; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:55:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:55:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <02c201c524f2$659cfd40$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050309185045.DDDE7AFABD xprdmailfe5.nwk.excite.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050309135745.02b4ea58@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:53:14 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58445 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "leaking pen" > you might say it combines the worst features of capitalism and communism. > as a someone who is a communist and a free market supporter (ones a > government, ones an economy, there IS a difference) i agree > completly. ive been saying that for years. If you can explain how this system of yours is supposed to work, I will try to update my highly authoritative "Summary of World Governments", and fit it in there somewhere...as that list needs to be further updated in light of new reports. As one might suspect for a subject so important, there is definitive ongoing analysis being done of competetive World economies: http://www.weforum.org/ The latest results: Finland remains the most competitive economy in the world and tops the rankings for the second consecutive year in The Global Competitiveness Report 2004-2005, released recently by the World Economic Forum. The United States is in second position, followed by Sweden, Taiwan, Denmark and Norway, consecutively. Japan did not make the top 5. It should be noted that only the USA and Norway have significant petroleum, making the accomplishments of the Nordic countries, especially Finland, even more impressive. Only the US has abundant natural resource and good weather and lots of arable land. All of the above (except Taiwan) now have higher average incomes than we do... and at the rate the dollar is falling, compared to the euro, things are not looking good for the future. The reason of their success, PLAIN AND SIMPLE: The Nordic countries are all running budget surpluses. Taiwan's secret is low wages, a highly motivated work-force (like Japan used to be) and absolute fear of encroachment from their larger neighbor, should they not be able to remain extremely competetive. Plus the Nordic countries have extremely low levels of corporate corruption and tax avoidance, with their firms operating in a legal environment in which there is widespread respect for the rule of law, no offshore banking is permitted, and the private sectors are on the forefront of technological innovation with direct government assistance. Tax avoidance in the US petrocracy is now running rampant, as Richard alluded to recently, following the slap on the wrist given to lower-level Enron tax cheats. Here is my slightly updated but still highly authoritative breakdown ;-) Summary of World Governments You own two cows. Here is what happens under: ~ Fascism - you keep both cows, state regulates milk production, dictates who you sell to, and the price. If a benevolent dictator emerges, everybody gets rich. This seldom happens. ~ Communism - confiscates one cow, regulates milk production, confiscates most of your milk and profit and gives it to unproductive people. Never known to work except in the voluntary small scale Kibbutz collectives. ~ Socialism - lets you keep both cows, confiscates most of your profit and gives it to unproductive people, but let's you vote for the leader who promises to change things and never does. ~ Democratic Social Bureaucracy (non Nordic Western Europe)- lets you keep both cows, confiscates most of your profit and gives it to unproductive people. It also buys a large portion of your milk and then pours it down the drain to stabilize prices. Then it raises taxes to fund elaborate, expensive studies to find out why government is so inefficient. ~ Libertarian Capitalist Republic - Lets you keep both cows, the milk, and your profit. It regulates almost nothing. You sell one cow and buy a bull and get rich while your cowless neighbors go into poverty and you buy their land for pennies on the dollar. If war erupts, you must form your own militia to defend yourself and there are no public schools or police because of the low tax base. Your impoverished neighbors soon become terrorists and everything disintegrates. ~ American Crony Capitalist Petrocracy - Lets you keep both cows, and about 60% of the profit. It regulates nothing directly, but borrows using your cow, bull, and new calves for collateral to finance the exploitation of vast tracts of public land for the benefit of the few. You try to sell the milk but find the only cash buyer is tied to an offshore bank, where the cronies bank, and they want to take out a second mortgage on your livestock and retain half the proceeds to counter the dollar's free-fall devaluation. ~ Democratic Social Bureaucracy (Nordic style)- lets you keep both cows, confiscates most of your profit for better free schooling and universal health care. Officially shames all unproductive citizens (high suicide rate). The secret and the only reason that this system thrives, even without abundant natural resources (which have saved our neck in the USA) is that they routinely RUN BUDGET SURPLUSES and do not wage un-necessary wars under false pretenses, (at least not since the days of the Vikings), nor do they tolerate un-necessary litigation or corporate graft . What will we call this new entry, the ~Libertarian Communist Free-market? Allows you to pay the upkeep on both cows, but retains the title. It regulates nothing directly .... ..... ? I hope it compares favorably with what the Finns are doing with so little to work with (other than reindeer... not that there's anything wrong with reindeer) ... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 14:18:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29MI3EJ002866; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:18:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29MI0eE002829; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:18:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:18:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=fZSXuXeKS49agpz8GHz0mrH0FcnQKpQjowIDXdJYWvoCg2sRBjdoyzLKVS/F+JbjWr1F8sz+eUZxZh8yBX5CpFo2jPU+Xdx5EpBrNd3tmwM/MobsFZhCGkWXV7BkKEr7uh0vNuvywEAzNQu2sCdR/rMtPGShImgsfe9SIUjgpoM= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:17:56 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline In-Reply-To: <02c201c524f2$659cfd40$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <20050309185045.DDDE7AFABD xprdmailfe5.nwk.excite.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050309135745.02b4ea58 pop.mindspring.com> <02c201c524f2$659cfd40$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j29MHuEJ002802 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58446 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: scuse me. socialist and free market supporter. not communist. wrote socialist (not communist, there is a difference) and it got sliced up in the copy and paste from notepad and editing. bad editing, bad. no biscuit. pretty much, you have a cow. the government takes part of your milk, and gives just enough to people with no cows to survive. but if they work hard on your fields, then theyll earn enough money to by their own cows from your next litter from you. its simple really, a minimum survival level which is guaranteed. and it would be guaranteed mostly via a minimum wage that made sense (in our economy, about 7 an hour, maybe 7.50), stricter coorporate guidlines, including agressive punishment of abuse of the workers/sellers (monopolistic behaviour, charging outrageous markups just because they can), taxed based on the services they recieve (commercial truck licenses that pay for the highways used by said coorps) things like that. On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:53:14 -0800, Jones Beene wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "leaking pen" > > > you might say it combines the worst features of capitalism > and communism. > > > as a someone who is a communist and a free market > supporter (ones a > > government, ones an economy, there IS a difference) i > agree > > completly. ive been saying that for years. > > If you can explain how this system of yours is supposed to > work, I will try to update my highly authoritative "Summary > of World Governments", and fit it in there somewhere...as > that list needs to be further updated in light of new > reports. > > As one might suspect for a subject so important, there is > definitive ongoing analysis being done of competetive World > economies: > http://www.weforum.org/ > > The latest results: Finland remains the most competitive > economy in the world and tops the rankings for the second > consecutive year in The Global Competitiveness Report > 2004-2005, released recently by the World Economic Forum. > The United States is in second position, followed by Sweden, > Taiwan, Denmark and Norway, consecutively. Japan did not > make the top 5. > > It should be noted that only the USA and Norway have > significant petroleum, making the accomplishments of the > Nordic countries, especially Finland, even more impressive. > Only the US has abundant natural resource and good weather > and lots of arable land. All of the above (except Taiwan) > now have higher average incomes than we do... and at the > rate the dollar is falling, compared to the euro, things are > not looking good for the future. > > The reason of their success, PLAIN AND SIMPLE: The Nordic > countries are all running budget surpluses. Taiwan's secret > is low wages, a highly motivated work-force (like Japan used > to be) and absolute fear of encroachment from their larger > neighbor, should they not be able to remain extremely > competetive. > > Plus the Nordic countries have extremely low levels of > corporate corruption and tax avoidance, with their firms > operating in a legal environment in which there is > widespread respect for the rule of law, no offshore banking > is permitted, and the private sectors are on the forefront > of technological innovation with direct government > assistance. > > Tax avoidance in the US petrocracy is now running rampant, > as Richard alluded to recently, following the slap on the > wrist given to lower-level Enron tax cheats. > > Here is my slightly updated but still highly authoritative > breakdown ;-) > > Summary of World Governments > > You own two cows. Here is what happens under: > > ~ Fascism - you keep both cows, state regulates milk > production, dictates who you sell to, and the price. If a > benevolent dictator emerges, everybody gets rich. This > seldom happens. > > ~ Communism - confiscates one cow, regulates milk > production, confiscates most of your milk and profit and > gives it to unproductive people. Never known to work except > in the voluntary small scale Kibbutz collectives. > > ~ Socialism - lets you keep both cows, confiscates most of > your profit and gives it to unproductive people, but let's > you vote for the leader who promises > to change things and never does. > > ~ Democratic Social Bureaucracy (non Nordic Western Europe)- > lets you keep both cows, confiscates most of your profit > and gives it to unproductive people. It also buys a large > portion of your milk and then pours it down the drain to > stabilize prices. Then it raises taxes to fund elaborate, > expensive studies to find out why government is so > inefficient. > > ~ Libertarian Capitalist Republic - Lets you keep both > cows, the milk, and your profit. It regulates almost > nothing. You sell one cow and buy a bull and get rich while > your cowless neighbors go into poverty and you buy their > land for pennies on the dollar. If war erupts, you must form > your own militia to defend yourself and there are no public > schools or police because of the low tax base. Your > impoverished neighbors soon become terrorists and everything > disintegrates. > > ~ American Crony Capitalist Petrocracy - Lets you keep both > cows, and about 60% of the profit. It regulates nothing > directly, but borrows using your cow, bull, and new calves > for collateral to finance the exploitation of vast tracts of > public land for the benefit of the few. You try to sell the > milk but find the only cash buyer is tied to an offshore > bank, where the cronies bank, and they want to take out a > second mortgage on your livestock and retain half the > proceeds to counter the dollar's free-fall devaluation. > > ~ Democratic Social Bureaucracy (Nordic style)- lets you > keep both cows, confiscates most of your profit for better > free schooling and universal health care. Officially shames > all unproductive citizens (high suicide rate). The secret > and the only reason that this system thrives, even without > abundant natural resources (which have saved our neck in the > USA) is that they routinely RUN BUDGET SURPLUSES and do not > wage un-necessary wars under false pretenses, (at least not > since the days of the Vikings), nor do they tolerate > un-necessary litigation or corporate graft . > > What will we call this new entry, the > > ~Libertarian Communist Free-market? > Allows you to pay the upkeep on both cows, but retains the > title. It regulates nothing directly .... ..... ? > > I hope it compares favorably with what the Finns are doing > with so little to work with (other than reindeer... not that > there's anything wrong with reindeer) ... > > Jones > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 14:24:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29MObEJ005829; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:24:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29MOXCY005802; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:24:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:24:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050309171602.02bbf968 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 17:24:12 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline In-Reply-To: <02c201c524f2$659cfd40$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> References: <20050309185045.DDDE7AFABD xprdmailfe5.nwk.excite.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050309135745.02b4ea58 pop.mindspring.com> <02c201c524f2$659cfd40$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_30469828==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <7eBafC.A.laB.he3LCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58447 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_30469828==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jones Beene wrote: >The United States is in second position, followed by Sweden, >Taiwan, Denmark and Norway, consecutively. Japan did not >make the top 5. Japan's fall in rank does not surprise me. One of their biggest problems is an aging population. The other problems have been ably described by Alex Kerr in various books and articles. >The reason of their success, PLAIN AND SIMPLE: The Nordic >countries are all running budget surpluses. Do you mean national budgets? I don't suppose a country can run a national budget surplus indefinitely. After the national debt is reduced to zero, they would be burning money, wouldn't they? Some people have suggested that countries should run a trade surplus to be healthy. Obviously they cannot all do that. Net imports and exports worldwide must total to zero unless we trade with Mars. Economics give me a headache, I must confess. I hope that in the distant future the whole business evaporates, nobody does any labor, and everyone makes all the goods they want with their own personal omni-converters and replicators. (See "Profiles of the Future.") - Jed --=====================_30469828==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jones Beene wrote:

The United States is in second position, followed by Sweden,
Taiwan, Denmark and Norway, consecutively. Japan did not
make the top 5.

Japan's fall in rank does not surprise me. One of their biggest problems is an aging population. The other problems have been ably described by Alex Kerr in various books and articles.


The reason of their success, PLAIN AND SIMPLE: The Nordic
countries are all running budget surpluses.

Do you mean national budgets? I don't suppose a country can run a national budget surplus indefinitely. After the national debt is reduced to zero, they would be burning money, wouldn't they?

Some people have suggested that countries should run a trade surplus to be healthy. Obviously they cannot all do that. Net imports and exports worldwide must total to zero unless we trade with Mars.

Economics give me a headache, I must confess. I hope that in the distant future the whole business evaporates, nobody does any labor, and everyone makes all the goods they want with their own personal omni-converters and replicators. (See "Profiles of the Future.")

- Jed
--=====================_30469828==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 15:04:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j29N43EJ021055; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:04:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j29N3w27020989; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:03:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:03:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: missy9871 spamarrest.com Message-Id: X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:03:39 -0600 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: "JNPCo." Subject: ********PRESS RELEASE: 03/09/05 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1101713071==_ma============" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58448 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1101713071==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The proceeds from this and other projects will be used to help bring forward the mass production of Joseph Newman's Energy Machine technology: Wind Acceleration, Inc. (WAI) announces a demonstration of an ENERGY WIND DEVICE FORTY TIMES MORE EFFICIENT than conventional blade devices occupying the same spatial area. Date: Monday & Tuesday, March 21 & 22, 2005 Place: Mobile, Alabama We are sorry, but at this time only business interests and news media are invited to the demonstration. For demonstration details, please contact: Joseph Nolfe, WAI President at (205) 835-9022 for exact directions to the demonstration. http://www.josephnewman.com "The Theory I propose may ... be called a Theory of the Electromagnetic Field because it has to do with the space in the neighborhood of the electric or magnetic bodies, AND IT MAY BE CALLED A DYNAMICAL THEORY, BECAUSE IT ASSUMES THAT IN THAT SPACE THERE IS MATTER IN MOTION, BY WHICH THE OBSERVED ELECTROMAGNETIC PHENOMENA ARE PRODUCED." --- JAMES CLERK MAXWELL --============_-1101713071==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" ********PRESS RELEASE: 03/09/05
The proceeds from this and other projects
will be used to help bring forward
the mass production of Joseph Newman's Energy Machine technology:

Wind Acceleration, Inc. (WAI)
announces a demonstration of an
ENERGY WIND DEVICE
FORTY TIMES MORE EFFICIENT
than conventional blade devices
occupying the same spatial area.

Date:
Monday & Tuesday, March 21 & 22, 2005

Place:
Mobile, Alabama

We are sorry, but at this time
only business interests and news media
are invited to the demonstration.

For demonstration details, please contact: 

Joseph Nolfe, WAI President
at (205) 835-9022
for exact directions to the demonstration.

http://www.josephnewman.com


"The Theory I propose may ... be called a Theory of the Electromagnetic Field
because it has to do with the space in the neighborhood of the electric or magnetic bodies,
AND IT MAY BE CALLED A DYNAMICAL THEORY,
BECAUSE IT ASSUMES THAT IN THAT SPACE THERE IS MATTER IN MOTION,
BY WHICH THE OBSERVED ELECTROMAGNETIC PHENOMENA ARE PRODUCED."  
--- JAMES CLERK MAXWELL

--============_-1101713071==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 17:53:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2A1qeLf024110; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:52:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2A1qa6S024084; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:52:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:52:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=JjLh58U3mGtZ6Jxzfj7fBaI0clTkh7p9ZhzBjdtTOV7RNpZ1jrAOFGtEeCbAH9i/lgFOutz4KqcNeF07nEPTn5U1mt5EGMeut2p7aRI+JCRdU5kWQ3VfXekmyoEfxIqg6dNG+R46Q5qKXa5kAtFvivP7YiIczzSlAovi45RpXDk= ; Message-ID: <20050310015229.88871.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:52:29 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58449 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > Economics give me a headache, I must confess. It's very difficult to grasp; but, if energy is free, we have no need for 'economics'. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 20:55:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2A4tNOt031464; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:55:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2A4tL3S031424; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:55:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:55:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000c01c5252d$519c7010$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Destry rides again Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 22:54:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C524FA.EE459A50"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=4.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58450 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C524FA.EE459A50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C524FA.EE4720F0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C524FA.EE4720F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankBeen awhile since I saw that movie. Interesting the most profitable business on earth is banking which is = an all encompassing entity in that it operates governments and = insurance (for a fee of course). The USA banking industry invented a = synthetic form of banking called the Federal Reserve which is another = way of saying they invented a substitute for gold. In studying the many posts on robots I discussed the subject of new = technology and weapons with our design team today. A really good = industrial design team could build various weapons for defense or = offense for peanuts just as the Bert Rutram and Steve Fossett teams. = Locally we have a US Army truck manufacturing plant. This company was = known as the best in the business back when they made industrial = equipment for industry. They now "play" the defense contractor game = where the " spec" is much more important than making anything that = works. Like the drunk that was given 5 chances to hit the ground with = his hat and missed all 5, this truck manufacturer cant seem to build a = truck that runs after years of trying. Yet their industrial team still = makes some of the most advanced systems out there in the oil patch. I = wonder why ! There was a link posted leading to site about a new US Army robotic = weapons truck the Government is spending megabucks on. The problem is a = good design team could design a blowgun for peanuts that would destroy = the truck. How? you would ask. A blowgun that can fire a projectile at = much more than 10,000 f/s velocity. It took our design team less than an = hour to come up with the method and it made sense. If our team can think = of it, there are many worldwide that can also. A projectile moving at = that velocity can penetrate hardened steel and not need an explosive = charge. The pressure rise inside the truck would destroy life. Why don't = we build one? We are not interested in making weapons because it is a = negative business and eventually we would become jaded. We build = products that make us a living, please us and feed our self esteem. We = could build awesome weapons that are so simple and cheap it would make = you laugh at DoD. We could, we would if our nation were under an = external threat but we are not. We are under attack internally but = nobody has the weapon for this kind of battle .. unless.... you use the = bible for its intended purpose and not to argue your point. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C524FA.EE4720F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Been awhile since I saw that = movie.
 
Interesting the most profitable business on = earth is=20 banking  which is an all encompassing entity in that it = operates =20 governments and insurance (for a fee of course). The USA banking = industry=20 invented a synthetic form of banking called the Federal Reserve which is = another=20 way of saying they invented a substitute for gold.
 
In studying the many posts on robots I = discussed the=20 subject of new technology and weapons with our design team today. A = really good=20 industrial design team could build various weapons for defense or = offense for=20 peanuts just as the Bert Rutram and Steve Fossett teams. Locally we have = a US=20 Army truck manufacturing plant. This company was known as the best in = the=20 business back when they made industrial equipment for industry. They now = "play"=20 the defense contractor game where the " spec" is much more important = than making=20 anything that works. Like the drunk that was given 5 chances to hit = the=20 ground with his hat and missed all 5, this truck manufacturer cant seem = to build=20 a truck that runs after years of trying. Yet their industrial team still = makes=20 some of the most advanced systems out there in the oil patch. I wonder = why=20 !
 
There was a link posted leading to site about = a new US=20 Army robotic weapons truck the Government is spending megabucks on. The = problem=20 is a good design team could design a blowgun for peanuts that would = destroy the=20 truck. How? you would ask. A blowgun that can fire a projectile at much = more=20 than 10,000 f/s velocity. It took our design team less than an hour to = come up=20 with the method and it made sense. If our team can think of it, there = are many=20 worldwide that can also. A projectile moving at that velocity can = penetrate=20 hardened steel and not need an explosive charge. The pressure rise = inside the=20 truck would destroy life. Why don't we build one? We are not interested = in=20 making weapons because it is a negative business and eventually we would = become=20 jaded. We build products that make us a living, please us and feed our = self=20 esteem. We could build awesome weapons that are so simple and cheap it = would=20 make you laugh at DoD. We could, we would if our nation were under an = external=20 threat but we are not. We are under attack internally but nobody has the = weapon=20 for this kind of battle .. unless.... you use the bible for its intended = purpose=20 and not to argue your point.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C524FA.EE4720F0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C524FA.EE459A50 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c5252d$38d3d550$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C524FA.EE459A50-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 9 21:37:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2A5bLOt013711; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:37:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2A5bKtF013700; Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:37:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:37:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:38:59 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00E7_01C52501.2AB18840" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050309135745.02b4ea58 pop.mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58451 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01C52501.2AB18840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bet that outrage doesn't stop you from driving... you patronize the system every time you fill up. The talk is easy, the walk is a whole lot harder. 8^) -j -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 1:05 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline Michael Foster wrote: Now let's review. The evil Big Oil Petrocracy has given us gasoline prices of $2 or so a gallon. On the other hand the, Enlightened Socialist Paradises of Europe have delivered near $6 per gallon gasoline. Hmmm..... I do not think much of socialism but that is a mis-characterization. The big evil oil petrocracy in the US has given us gasoline prices of $5 dollars a gallon: $2 paid by the customer and $3 stolen from the taxpayers, or paid for in blood by our soldiers. We pay as much as anyone but the cost is hidden by our tax system, by hidden subsidies and depletion allowances, lax pollution standards, and by forcing the public to pay for rich people's SUVs. If anything, the U.S. system is far too socialistic. Or you might say it combines the worst features of capitalism and communism. - Jed ------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01C52501.2AB18840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bet=20 that outrage doesn't stop you from driving... you patronize the = system=20 every time you fill up.  The talk is easy, the walk is a whole lot=20 harder.  8^)
 
 =20 -j
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell=20 [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, = 2005=20 1:05 PM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: More = immediate=20 threat: $2.10/gal gasoline

Michael = Foster=20 wrote:

Now let's review. The = evil Big Oil=20 Petrocracy has given us gasoline
prices of $2 or so a gallon.  = On the=20 other hand the, Enlightened
Socialist Paradises of Europe have = delivered=20 near $6 per gallon
gasoline.  = Hmmm.....

I do not=20 think much of socialism but that is a mis-characterization. The big evil = oil=20 petrocracy in the US has given us gasoline prices of $5 dollars a = gallon: $2=20 paid by the customer and $3 stolen from the taxpayers, or paid for in = blood by=20 our soldiers. We pay as much as anyone but the cost is hidden by our tax = system,=20 by hidden subsidies and depletion allowances, lax pollution standards, = and by=20 forcing the public to pay for rich people's SUVs. If anything, the U.S. = system=20 is far too socialistic. Or you might say it combines the worst features = of=20 capitalism and communism.

- Jed
------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01C52501.2AB18840-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 10 00:09:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2A89Skn000351; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:09:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2A89Qux000310; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:09:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:09:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 02:09:41 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Newman's PRESS RELEASE: 03/09/05 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <5G6e1.A.tE.1CAMCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58452 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: forty times more efficient than a conventional wind generator, eh? If you go, hang on to your pocketbook! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 10 06:55:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2AEtRkn026142; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 06:55:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2AEtK74026067; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 06:55:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 06:55:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rb42s$mc1ri9 mxip20a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.90,153,1107752400"; d="scan'208"; a="750841417:sNHT14348676" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: Subject: Re: Newman's PRESS RELEASE: 03/09/05 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:55:11 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5WS8U.A.HXG.X_FMCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58453 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: thomas malloy > > forty times more efficient than a conventional wind > generator, eh? If you go, hang on to your pocketbook! > Amen to that. As I understand it, the curious thing about Newman's claims is the remote possibility that he may have actually stumbled across some form of OU. However, even if there is OU most suspect that his devices as advertised to the pubic as being ready for commercialization are most likely way too cumbersome or inefficient for serious commercial consideration. Others, less charitable believe he has simply deluded himself. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 10 07:36:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2AFa2kn010065; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:36:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2AFZtqn009994; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:35:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:35:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=RVzQi+j/1MrTOOvEtf3pmg0ZTHsNMPvZqx2fZV4HLbA6sDOeq3Wfrdta7oQb8EKP/b7W8bWcUaPuwFQ6sQv4cH2ASYvC/mPmZF1zz4LPW5dKCKKv0PQ2uyurD/4KFzADvWYaJ2O4+RvINgB/GEF8greX6FEKvnoq+nF0/JOguxo= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:35:48 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline In-Reply-To: <20050310015229.88871.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <20050310015229.88871.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2AFZmkn009854 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58454 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: have you read the book midas world? On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:52:29 -0800 (PST), Terry Blanton wrote: > > --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > Economics give me a headache, I must confess. > > It's very difficult to grasp; but, if energy is free, > we have no need for 'economics'. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 10 07:46:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2AFjrkn014503; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:45:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2AFjptD014483; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:45:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:45:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050310103838.029d5f78 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:45:24 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050309135745.02b4ea58 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58455 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: >Bet that outrage doesn't stop you from driving... you patronize the system >every time you fill up. The talk is easy, the walk is a whole lot harder. 8^) Actually I do, in fact, walk. Not so much in winter. And I am not going to buy another Volvo if all they offer are models that get lower MPG than the 1995 model. That's outrageous! The point is, it would not take much to reduce consumption. Some columnist the other day pointed out that most people who have SUVs also have ordinary cars, and if they would all leave the SUV home one or two days a week and drive the car instead, it would save a phenomenal amount of fuel. I have long felt that the energy crisis would be much easier to fix, even by conventional means, than most people realize. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 10 08:20:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2AGKEkn000815; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:20:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2AGK7wZ000764; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:20:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:20:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=pt5ftwN4PgueG7yGIGxNlKQNBxvDLwcys3+AqvxiMEQlasz+EF59vb5XWEkkVAxa4lVgbA5cth++MOZ/oZw6U/croJTNKarmgmsTGzIAfTjUFjoOMHNi4StLa8C1rBJeVZk6jzHjxSYk5n07yfYwcmeWiwEcJIgF9TvG3sDMbHs= ; Message-ID: <20050310161958.29416.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:19:57 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: RE: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1345018440-1110471597=:28969" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58456 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1345018440-1110471597=:28969 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I just bought a Scion xB. My Echo was just a bit small; but, I still have it. The Scion is not exactly a SUV; but, it imitates one. I still have the Echo which gets around 38 mpg; but, the Scion isn't too shabby at 33 mpg. The amazing thing is that the Echo is almost 6 years old and has retained half its value. I figure my wife will park her Lexus and drive the Echo next year when gas hits $3/gal. Jed Rothwell wrote:Some columnist the other day pointed out that most people who have SUVs also have ordinary cars, and if they would all leave the SUV home one or two days a week and drive the car instead, it would save a phenomenal amount of fuel. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1345018440-1110471597=:28969 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I just bought a Scion xB.  My Echo was just a bit small; but, I still have it.  The Scion is not exactly a SUV; but, it imitates one.  I still have the Echo which gets around 38 mpg; but, the Scion isn't too shabby at 33 mpg.  The amazing thing is that the Echo is almost 6 years old and has retained half its value.  I figure my wife will park her Lexus and drive the Echo next year when gas hits $3/gal.

Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
Some columnist
the other day pointed out that most people who have SUVs also have
ordinary cars, and if they would all leave the SUV home one or two days a
week and drive the car instead, it would save a phenomenal amount of fuel.

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1345018440-1110471597=:28969-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 10 08:53:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2AGrVkn016744; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:53:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2AGrRLo016701; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:53:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:53:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003601c52591$8237ae60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: End of Science Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:52:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0033_01C5254E.71875AE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58457 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C5254E.71875AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .... or end of respectability for "Scientific American"? Recently some genius commented that at his death Bethe had almost = witnessed the "end of science"... John Horgan couldn't agree more. = Horgan is a senior writer for the stogy, intransigent and = way-past-its-prime magazine, "Scientific American" and occasionally = presents himself to be one of the most foolish educated-men on the = planet. Not just for his essay "The End of Science: Facing the Limits of = Knowledge in the Twilight of the Scientific Age." but for repeatedly = compounding his earlier errors with irresponsible backup statements. It = is almost as if the senior staff at S-A has pledged allegiance to this = "end-of-science" credo as their mantra; and are prepared to go down with = the ship, once they are proven wrong. Horgan ends his silly essay with "Modern science, as far as it has come, = has left many deep questions unanswered. But the questions tend to be = ones that will probably never be definitively answered, given the limits = of human science." Yet as he speaks, these very questions are being = answered in bits and pieces, and we actually seem to fast approaching a = "tipping point" of sorts - one that will turn mainstream cosmology on = its head and will indeed answer everything definitively. The truth of the matter is, we are just on the dawn of a gigantic = rebirth of science, especially physics and cosmology, as many old and = incorrect and notions and "Laws" are being swept away to be replaced by = a new physics for the new millennium. ZPE and LENR, dark matter and dark = energy, are just the tips of the iceberg. To wit: *Negative refraction* is brand new (age ~4) to physics and astronomy, = but has been causing a stir in fields of applied-materials science. When = light crosses a boundary, it is bent in a characteristic way. Keepers of = the faith, like Horgan, would love to see it stay that way, so that they = can have the smug satisfaction of saying "told ya so". But in 2001, = researchers showed that certain artificial materials bend light in the = opposite direction. Over a year later S-A, having tried to ignore this = exciting R&D for as long as it could, finally did a modest and slightly = negative assessment - hoping, one supposes, that this nonsense would = just go away, since it doesn't fit into their end-of-science mega-theme. = It hasn't gone away. The initial revelation prompted a flurry of confirmation research, most = of which has focused on understanding and developing earth-bound = negative refracting materials. But then, the obvious and larger = repercussions of negative refraction have emerged, some of them hinted = at on vortex. "Black holes bend light the 'wrong' way" is a new story by = Jim Giles along these lines. "Refraction effect may be distorting = astronomers' results. The galaxy Centaurus A has a supermassive black = hole at its heart - but could its gravity be fooling astronomers?" Duh... where have you been, Jim...."Starlight may be bent in odd = directions when it passes close to a rotating black hole, the = researchers now say, unexpectedly shifting its source's apparent = position in the sky. The cause is a recently discovered phenomenon = called negative refraction, which physicists are still struggling to = understand." ... well, Jim, not that recently, but hey, better late than = never... The foot-dragging here is understandable, when the mainstream press = chooses to ignore the initial accounts (and it may take S-A a few = decades to catch-on to the full extent of this), that is, if the = publisher does not hurry-up and fire the entire senior staff, beginning = with Horgan... Some critics of the magazine might even suggest a = national "drop-your-subscription" campaign or boycott and this step = should not be ruled out, as this is still an influential journal, = presently being hijacked by Luddites. How long will it take them to realize that Halton Arp gave the partial = answer to this and much more, many years ago. They poo-pooed him then, = but will they apologize when they are forced to "eat crow"?... I doubt = it. Gravitational red-shift is a "sizeable part" of the correct answer, = but one cannot eliminate distance, so it is not all the answer - and Arp = himself was a bit over-reaching. But redshift itself is the higher order = phenomenon that demonstrates that when over half of the universe is = "dark matter" then the gravitation from this type of matter is going to = bend light or retard/advance light-waves differently than is the = standard assumption of the way light is affected by regular matter. Oh well, we can sit back and wait to see how long it will take them to = realize this little gem. Gravitational red-shift has been and still is = significantly under-appreciated in both observational analysis and in = mathematical calculations of the age, mass and rate of expansion of the = universe, which is a steady-state universe in regular pulsation. There = never was a "single" big bang, plain and simple, but there was indeed a = "little bang" for our super-cluster, and this has thrown short-sighted = observers into a tizzy of misunderstanding about the roles of = "dimensionality" and "time," and the "mirror effect" of these. Light leaving a region where the "normal" gravitational force is large = will be shifted towards the red naturally, that is - its wavelength = increases; or similarly, when falling into a region where the "normal" = gravitational pull is large, will be shifted towards the blue. BUT in = half of more of the cases where dark matter (or anti-matter) is present, = these predictions might vary significantly from the norm, and might even = be REVERSED. Some red-shifted light might well be indicative of close-by = dark matter (dark now, but not when the light was emitted). There are so = many permutations - of having three or four mass variables (light, dark, = anti-, and normal) not to mention Dirac's sea, which is the basis for = all of them, that no one can be sure, exactly. However, the truth is = starting to emerge coherently and we are now fast approaching the new = "Beginning of Science". Remember, dear vortex reader, confused as we all may be by this fast = approaching paradigm shift, you heard it here first, off the record, on = the QT, and very Hush-Hush.... signed, Harry Tuttle - ductwork engineer and cosmo-arcanologist extraordinaire ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C5254E.71875AE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
.... or end of respectability for "Scientific American"?
 
Recently some genius commented that at his death Bethe had = almost=20 witnessed the "end of science"... John Horgan couldn't agree more.=20 Horgan is a senior writer for the stogy, intransigent and=20 way-past-its-prime magazine, "Scientific American" and occasionally = presents=20 himself to be one of the most foolish educated-men on the planet. = Not just=20 for his essay "The End of Science: Facing the Limits of Knowledge = in the=20 Twilight of the Scientific Age." but for repeatedly compounding his = earlier=20 errors with irresponsible backup statements. It is almost as if the = senior staff=20 at S-A has pledged allegiance to this "end-of-science" credo = as their=20 mantra; and are prepared to go down with the ship, once they are proven=20 wrong.
 
Horgan ends his silly essay with "Modern science, as far as it has = come,=20 has left many deep questions unanswered. But the questions tend to be = ones that=20 will probably never be definitively answered, given the limits of human=20 science." Yet as he speaks, these very questions are being answered in = bits and=20 pieces, and we actually seem to fast approaching a "tipping point" of = sorts -=20 one that will turn mainstream cosmology on its head and will indeed = answer=20 everything definitively.
 
The truth of the matter is, we are just on the dawn of a gigantic = rebirth=20 of science, especially physics and cosmology, as many old and incorrect = and=20 notions and "Laws" are being swept away to be replaced by a new physics = for the=20 new millennium. ZPE and LENR, dark matter and dark energy, are just = the=20 tips of the iceberg. To wit:
 
*Negative refraction* is brand new (age ~4) to physics and = astronomy, but=20 has been causing a stir in fields of applied-materials science. When = light=20 crosses a boundary, it is bent in a characteristic way. Keepers of = the=20 faith, like Horgan, would love to see it stay that way, so that = they can=20 have the smug satisfaction of saying "told ya so". But in 2001, = researchers=20 showed that certain artificial materials bend light in the opposite = direction.=20 Over a year later S-A, having tried to ignore this exciting R&D for = as long=20 as it could, finally did a modest and slightly negative assessment=20 - hoping, one supposes, that this nonsense would just go away, = since it=20 doesn't fit into their end-of-science mega-theme. It hasn't gone = away.
 
The initial revelation prompted a flurry of confirmation research, = most of=20 which has focused on understanding and developing earth-bound negative=20 refracting materials. But then, the obvious and larger = repercussions of=20 negative refraction have emerged, some of them hinted at on vortex. = "Black holes=20 bend light the 'wrong' way" is a new story by Jim Giles along these=20 lines. "Refraction effect may be distorting astronomers' results. = The=20 galaxy Centaurus A has a supermassive black hole at its heart − = but could its=20 gravity be fooling astronomers?"
 
Duh... where have you been, Jim...."Starlight may be bent in odd = directions=20 when it passes close to a rotating black hole, the researchers now say,=20 unexpectedly shifting its source's apparent position in the sky. The = cause is a=20 recently discovered phenomenon called negative refraction, which = physicists are=20 still struggling to understand." ... well, Jim, not that recently, but = hey,=20 better late than never...
 
The foot-dragging here is understandable, when the mainstream press = chooses=20 to ignore the initial accounts (and it may take S-A a few decades to = catch-on to=20 the full extent of this), that is, if the publisher does not hurry-up = and fire=20 the entire senior staff, beginning with Horgan... Some critics of the = magazine=20 might even suggest a national "drop-your-subscription" campaign or = boycott and=20 this step should not be ruled out, as this is still an influential = journal,=20 presently being hijacked by Luddites.
 
How long will it take them to realize that Halton Arp gave the = partial=20 answer to this and much more, many years ago. They poo-pooed him = then, but=20 will they apologize when they are forced to "eat crow"?... I doubt it.=20 Gravitational red-shift is a "sizeable part" of the correct answer, but = one=20 cannot eliminate distance, so it is not all the answer - and Arp = himself=20 was a bit over-reaching. But redshift itself is the higher order = phenomenon that=20 demonstrates that when over half of the universe is "dark = matter" then=20 the gravitation from this type of matter is going to bend light or=20 retard/advance light-waves differently than is the standard = assumption=20 of the way light is affected by regular matter.
 
Oh well, we can sit back and wait to see how long it will take them = to=20 realize this little gem. Gravitational red-shift has been and still is=20 significantly under-appreciated in both observational analysis and in=20 mathematical calculations of the age, mass and rate of expansion of the=20 universe, which is a steady-state universe in regular = pulsation. There=20 never was a "single" big bang, plain and simple, but there was = indeed a=20 "little bang" for our super-cluster, and this has thrown short-sighted = observers=20 into a tizzy of misunderstanding about the roles of "dimensionality" and = "time,"=20 and the "mirror effect" of these.
 
Light leaving a region where the "normal" gravitational force = is large=20 will be shifted towards the red naturally, that is - its wavelength = increases;=20 or similarly, when falling into a region where the "normal" = gravitational pull=20 is large, will be shifted towards the blue. BUT in half of more of the = cases=20 where dark matter (or anti-matter) is present, these predictions might = vary=20 significantly from the norm, and might even be REVERSED. Some = red-shifted light=20 might well be indicative of close-by dark matter (dark now, but not when = the=20 light was emitted). There are so many permutations - of having three or=20 four mass variables (light, dark, anti-, and normal) not to mention = Dirac's=20 sea, which is the basis for all of them, that no one can be sure, = exactly.=20 However, the truth is starting to emerge coherently and we are now fast=20 approaching the new "Beginning of Science".
 
Remember, dear vortex reader, confused as we all may be by this = fast=20 approaching paradigm shift, you heard it here first, off the record, on = the QT,=20 and very Hush-Hush....
 
signed,
 
Harry Tuttle
        - ductwork engineer and=20 cosmo-arcanologist extraordinaire
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C5254E.71875AE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 10 10:21:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2AILF98027717; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:21:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2AIL88n027628; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:21:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:21:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001a01c5259d$a1bae340$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003601c52591$8237ae60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: End of Science Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:18:59 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <--P0p.A.cvG.SAJMCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58458 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: BTW I did not intend to slight any of the regular critics of Horgan on vortex going back seven years to BillB, by not mentioning those posts or their concerns about the course of S-A, but I did intend to add, to the previous rant - "The End of Horgan" which I see has apparenty has been removed from the web. The google cache remians however, as well as his smug-mug: http://tinyurl.com/4j8ok it is only fari to allow his "pre-buttal," no? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 10 10:37:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2AIbI98004528; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:37:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2AIbCP8004486; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:37:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:37:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002401c5259f$fd8c8640$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <003601c52591$8237ae60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <001a01c5259d$a1bae340$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: End of Science Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:35:52 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58459 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Oops another eldritch-errata, > it is only fari to allow his "pre-buttal," no? Sorry. There was no intent in my notoriously dyslexic spelling to imply anything about Mr. Horgan's sexual preferences. Usually the MS spell-checker steps-in and saves me from these occasionally humorous, but seldom this prescient, kind of slip-up.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 10 11:32:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2AJVx90029644; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:32:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2AJVvm1029626; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:31:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:31:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3rrac5$nkuas9 mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <3rrac5$nkuas9 mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:32:06 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OT: The will of God Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <1273dC.A.2OH.tCKMCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58460 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Johnson posted; >A recent comment by the esteemed Mr. Malloy got me to thinking... > >The problem I always have when I hear catchy little phrases like: >"We Evangelicals see W's [Bush's] election as the will of G-d", or >"It is Allah's will" The scenario which is being played out was prophecized 4000 years ago, ergo it is the will of G-d. The Islamists believe that Allah has blessed their enterprise too. The fact that Allah isn't god has no bearing on their behavior, they believe that he is god, and they will do what the Quran tells them to do. >the face of the "Will of God", this inevitably invites others to >take control over their powerless lives. All the better if these >self-proclaimed leaders state they are on a first name basis with >God, or Allah. That's why men study the scriptures. The Islamists do the same with the Quran. > >As human beings, most of us (if we're lucky) will be confronted with >events one is given the rare opportunity to question the underlying >Blueprints of Life - for which one in the past had always assumed >had been carved in stone. But you see it is carved in stone > >Regardless of whether one is an Atheist or not, I would hope most >individuals would be able to find deep down within themselves a >spark of divinity, or least the proxy of divinity. Have you ever heard of eschatology? Of the verses which were prophetic at the time they were written, 75% have come to pass. Does that suggest something about the other 25%? Further more, this war which is between us and Islam, was not my idea, but it was prophecized, and we are powerless to stop it. The election of W, along with the controversy surrounding it, and the war were all predicted in the Bible Code. > As for electing Bush, I certainly didn't vote for him. Of course you didn't From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 10 12:01:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2AK1690010778; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:01:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2AK118M010722; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:01:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:01:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:01:22 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: End of Science Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58461 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:35 AM 3/10/5, Jones Beene wrote: >Oops another eldritch-errata, > >> it is only fari to allow his "pre-buttal," no? > > >Sorry. There was no intent in my notoriously dyslexic >spelling to imply anything about Mr. Horgan's sexual >preferences. Usually the MS spell-checker steps-in and saves >me from these occasionally humorous, but seldom this >prescient, kind of slip-up.... I've been using a freeware version of Eudora for about 10 years now. It has no spelling checker. I'm slightly dyslexic and both a bad speller and typist. This experience has led me to suspect the probability of a spelling error is proportional to: a. the degree to which the error inverts the meaning being expressed, b. the degree the expression is turned profane by the error, c. the amount of personal embarrassment the error causes, d. the degree of necessity to correct the error in a repost. I've also noticed that the probability of finding the error upon proofreading is inversely proportional to the above, as is the time interval after pressing send before the error is noticed. I suppose these observations are merely corollaries to Murphy's law. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 10 12:33:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2AKWj90026629; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:32:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2AKWcKf026565; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:32:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:32:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050310153119.02c09fb0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:32:14 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: End of Science In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_23764453==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58462 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_23764453==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Horace Heffner wrote: >I've been using a freeware version of Eudora for about 10 years now. It >has no spelling checker. You should get the paid version. It is much better and it does have a spelling checker. - Jed --=====================_23764453==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Horace Heffner wrote:

I've been using a freeware version of Eudora for about 10 years now.  It
has no spelling checker.

You should get the paid version. It is much better and it does have a spelling checker.

- Jed
--=====================_23764453==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 10 14:28:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2AMS5U9009545; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:28:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2AMRx4g009505; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:27:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:27:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002701c525c0$3f17cc80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: Subject: Re: End of Science Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:26:45 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Horace Heffner > I've also noticed that the probability of finding the error upon > proofreading is inversely proportional to the above, as is the time > interval after pressing send before the error is noticed. I suppose these > observations are merely corollaries to Murphy's law. 8^) Yup. Exactomundo. And speaking of that genius, Murphy... here are a few of my favorite corollaries, a few of them shamelessly paraphrased from: http://dmawww.epfl.ch/roso.mosaic/dm/murphy.html MURPHY'S LAWS & Corollaries Nothing is as easy as it first looks. Everything takes longer than you first think. If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that will cause the most damage will be the first one to go wrong. Or else, they will all go wrong at once. Corollary to that corollary: If there is a worse time for something to go wrong, it will happen precisely then. If anything simply cannot go wrong, it will go wrong anyway. If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something. It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are as ingenious as indigenous. Murphy's Law of Thermodynamics Things get worse under pressure. Murphy's Law of Logic Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence. The Murphy Principle of Life Smile . . . tomorrow things will only get worse. Murphy's Law of Laws Laws of science will be vacated quickest in direct proportion to their assumed prior validity. The day after any law is overturned, the former proponents will say it was always meant to be "special" and never "general" Murphy's 1st Law of R&D All great discoveries are made by accident. R&D corollaries Always draw your curves first, then plot your reading. Enough research will tend to support any theory. Technology is dominated by those who manage what they do not understand. Never report you null experiment so that others can waste as much time on it as your have. Poor Man's Commentary on Murphy's Laws 1) If your have nothing to lose by change, relax. 2) If you have everything to gain by change, relax. 3) If change doesn't seem to matter, be very concerned. O'Toole's Commentary on Murphy Murphy was an optimist. Tuttle's Comment on O'Toole O'Toole was a person predisposed to take a favorable view of Murphy Murphy's Military Laws Friendly fire isn't The most dangerous thing in the combat zone is an officer with a map. Never share a foxhole with anyone braver than you are. Murphy's Love Laws All the good ones are taken. If the good person isn't taken, there's a better reason. Brains x Beauty x Availability = Constant. Money can't buy love, but it sure puts you in a great bargaining position. Nice guys really do finish last. The qualities that most attract a woman to a man are usually the same ones she can't stand years later. Love is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Love, for a man, is the delusion that one woman differs significantly from another. ....And many more... so **smile** it hides one's deep angst about the truth of Murphy and makes people wonder what you know that he missed. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 10 15:32:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2ANUDUb003890; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:32:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2AMuIO3022880; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:56:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:56:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:56:43 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: End of Science Resent-Message-ID: <3yHCDB.A.NlF.OCNMCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:32 PM 3/10/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Horace Heffner wrote: > >>I've been using a freeware version of Eudora for about 10 years now. It >>has no spelling checker. > >You should get the paid version. It is much better and it does have a >spelling checker. Obviously, I'm way too cheap for that! 8^) Actually, current versions of Eudora probably won't work on my computer (A Mac Performa 5200 running System 7 - see how cheap I really am!). I am interested in upgrading though, both Eudora and Mac, but wonder if the 500+ megabytes of email I have cataloged can be converted. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 10 19:17:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2B3HaU9006033; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:17:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2B3HRtp005950; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:17:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:17:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Ironport-AV: i="3.90,155,1107752400"; d="scan'208"; a="851196783:sNHT14227864" From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Cc: Subject: RE: OT: The will of God Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:17:16 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Thomas, > From: thomas malloy > > Steven Johnson posted; > > >A recent comment by the esteemed Mr. Malloy got me to thinking... > > > >The problem I always have when I hear catchy little phrases like: > >"We Evangelicals see W's [Bush's] election as the will of G-d", or > >"It is Allah's will" > > The scenario which is being played out was prophecized 4000 years > ago, ergo it is the will of G-d. The Islamists believe that Allah has > blessed their enterprise too. The fact that Allah isn't god has no > bearing on their behavior, they believe that he is god, and they will > do what the Quran tells them to do. So, you know for an absolute fact that Allah isn't God? > >the face of the "Will of God", this inevitably invites others to > >take control over their powerless lives. All the better if these > >self-proclaimed leaders state they are on a first name basis with > >God, or Allah. > > That's why men study the scriptures. The Islamists do the same > with the Quran. ...and your point? > >As human beings, most of us (if we're lucky) will be confronted with > >events one is given the rare opportunity to question the underlying > >Blueprints of Life - for which one in the past had always assumed > >had been carved in stone. > > But you see it is carved in stone I think Mel Brooks playing the role of Moses got it right when in a movie he comes down from the mountain holding three tablets in his arm given to him by God. "Behold!" Moses shouts to his people, "I give you..." and then one of the three tablets slips out of his hands hits the ground shattering into a thousand tiny little pieces. Moses, hesitates for a second and then holds up the remaining two tablets "...I give you the ten commandments." Anybody can have a bad day. > >Regardless of whether one is an Atheist or not, I would hope most > >individuals would be able to find deep down within themselves a > >spark of divinity, or least the proxy of divinity. > > Have you ever heard of eschatology? Of the verses which were > prophetic at the time they were written, 75% have come to pass. Does > that suggest something about the other 25%? Further more, this war > which is between > us and Islam, was not my idea, but it was prophecized, and we are > powerless to stop it. The election of W, along with the controversy > surrounding it, and the war were all predicted in the Bible Code. It wasn't my idea either. However, regarding the Bible Code, I suspect some may disagree with you on that point. > >As for electing Bush, I certainly didn't vote for him. > > Of course you didn't Presumably meaning you did. If so, I'm curious. Did you vote for "W" because you personally felt he was the right man for the job or because it was the will of god? Speaking of bible code: You might enjoy reading Carl Sagan's book "Contact". The ending was particularly ingenious, IMHO. I think Mr. Sagan, struggled most of his life trying to reconcile conflicting feelings he had about religion versus science. I suspect the late Mr. Sagan had a religious side which he kept meticulously hidden from public view. However, being the scientist that he was I speculate that Sagan felt compelled to reconcile these two areas in his life. I thought Sagan came up with one of the most elegant ways I've ever read in a novel of a way to suggest how the Hand of God might be carved into the structure of the universe. In Sagan's novel the Hand of God isn't revealed till the last page of the book either, so you gotta read it to the end. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 10 20:00:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2B3xaU9032078; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:59:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2B3xWnO032008; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:59:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:59:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050311035903.006a301c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 03:59:03 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: End of Science Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:52 am 10-03-05 -0800, Harry Tuttle wrote: > *Negative refraction* is brand new (age ~4) > to physics and astronomy, but has been causing > a stir in fields of applied-materials science. > When light crosses a boundary, it is bent in a > characteristic way. Keepers of the faith, like > Horgan, would love to see it stay that way, so > that they can have the smug satisfaction of > saying "told ya so". But in 2001, researchers > showed that certain artificial materials bend > light in the opposite direction. Over a year > later S-A, having tried to ignore this exciting > R&D for as long as it could, finally did a > modest and slightly negative assessment - > hoping, one supposes, that this nonsense would > just go away, since it doesn't fit into their > end-of-science mega-theme. It hasn't gone away. Stimulated by Tuttle's incisive post I googled *Negative refraction* to find out about this interesting discovery. http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-6/p37.html >From the opening sentence..... ------------------------------------------------------- "Materials engineered to have negative permittivity and permeability demonstrate exotic behavior, from a negative refractive index to subwavelength focusing." ------------------------------------------------------- .....I could recognise the mistake that was being made. For years I made a similar mistake myself. Permittivity and Permeability are simply Iterative Hierarchical Strains of EM space. One is a measure of tensile strain, the other a measure of balancing compressive strain. If epsilon is positive then mu must be negative and vice-versa. So let us say that permeability represents positive space strain, then permittivity must represent negative space strain and must be accompanied by a minus sign. So the statement should really read, --------------------------------------- "Materials engineered to have positive permittivity and negative permeability demonstrate exotic behavior, from a negative refractive index to subwavelength focusing." -------------------------------------- In other words the signs of permittivity and permeability are reversed. For most materials the quasi Solid Phase is in compression and the quasi Fluid Phase is in tension, using the terms Solid and Fluid in the sense they are used in Di-phase Theory. But for some materials, such as jelly and children's balloons, it is the other way around. The Fluid Phases (water and air respectively) are in compression and the Solid Phases (organic networks) are in tension. In effect, these new materials are the equivalent of jelly and balloons on the EM scale of things. The trouble with physicists is that they are so lost among the trees they very rarely get a good look at the wood. ;-) Cheers Frank Grimer ===================================== vox Domini confringentis cedros et confringet Dominus cedros Libani et disperget eas quasi vitulus Libani et Sarion quasi filius rinocerotis ===================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 10 21:16:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2B5GcU9031046; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:16:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2B5GZ6d031026; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:16:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:16:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vortex mystery Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:16:24 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7n6231hrtp6il1eusveugvqe3oa55k5kgn 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2B5GUU9030967 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:31:22 -0900: Hi, [snip] >>mv1r1 = mv2r2, i.e. v2 = v1 x r1/r2. (m is the same before and >>after, because we are dealing in both cases with the identical >>chunk of water). > >Yes, you are certainly right about this. Momentum is conserved. The speed >of a chunck is thus not constant in a vortex, as I had assumed. In fact, I >think in your imaginary tank the tangential speed is proportional to 1/r, i.e. v2 = v1 x r1/r2 Where r2 is your r, and V1 x r1 is the proportionality constant. >and the vertical speed to 1/r as well. This is shown in Feynman's *Lectures >on Physics*, Vol II, 40-10 ff. Fig. 40-12 is a great drawing of your tank, >showing the surface countour of a sample vortex. > >The reason kinetic energy is increased is that work is done on the chunck >as it moves inward. In the case of a cylinder of water the work is just >the work of falling, m*g*h. The work is completely analogous to the work This is what I also initially assumed, and it must be the case for a tank in which the water is essentially initially motionless, and is eventually brought into motion by the vortex action spreading from the centre. Assuming that some random minor current in the water near the drain starts the vortex rotating. In this case, the velocity at the rim of the tank will eventually assume a value determined by the gravitational energy gain, call this velocity V0, with matching AM m x V0 x R0 (where R0 is the radius of the rim of the tank). The gravitational component of the final velocity can't exceed sqrt(2 x g x h), where h is the initial height of the chunk of water, and g is the Earth's gravitational acceleration at the surface. This implies a maximum rim velocity due to gravity of V0 = sqrt(2 x g x h) x Rd/R0. The problem arises, when one starts with a tank full of water that is already rotating, especially where the initial velocity at the rim > V0. If we now follow this down the drain, we find that the energy gain of the water is greater than would ensue purely from gravity. The energy *gain* per unit mass is: 1/2 x V0^2 x ((R0/Rd)^2 -1) which clearly is a function of V0! (R0 and Rd being constants). IOW by choosing a larger V0, we gain more energy, which implies that either gravity is not the only source, or the water doesn't flow, or part of the angular momentum is passed off, such that the velocity can remain constant. This was the reasoning that led to my initial question. If a large part of the angular momentum is not passed to the Earth, then where does the energy come from? The only other possibility I can see, is that we have a situation where the centrifugal force is so large at the drain, that the inner radius of the vortex is in fact larger than the drain, and no water goes down at all, which means that the water eventually slows down due to internal friction, until a point is reached that the weakening centrifugal force allows it flow. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 10 22:02:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2B62fU9015222; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:02:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2B62dNw015194; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:02:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:02:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Limitless hydrogen? Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:02:29 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7tc231hfbf9k7hu1vti5u6tjd25hvtv6au 4ax.com> References: <009701c522b2$2bc0b5e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <20050307152755.89115.qmail@web54510.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050307152755.89115.qmail web54510.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2B62YU9015146 Resent-Message-ID: <1_4MiD.A.StD.9RTMCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Merlyn's message of Mon, 07 Mar 2005 07:27:54 -0800 (PST): Hi, [snip] >Note that this actually IS the "nightmare" scenario whereby a hydrogen economy removes oxygen from the atmosphere. > >The water is split by the formation of SiO2 underground, leaving the oxygen innacessible and providing hydrogen for our use. Burn the hydrogen and you get more water, but with a net loss of usable oxygen. > >Probably not a good idea for long-term energy production. [snip] It would take 44590 years to use up all the oxygen in the atmosphere, at out current rate of energy use. So, it should at least give us a few hundred years to come up with something better. Who knows, perhaps by then they will have succeeded with hot fusion. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 10 23:43:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2B7hOU9015752; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:43:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2B7hLHs015730; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:43:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:43:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 01:43:41 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: RE: OT: The will of God Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hi Thomas, > >> From: thomas malloy >> >> Steven Johnson posted; >> >> >A recent comment by the esteemed Mr. Malloy got me to thinking... >> > >> >The problem I always have when I hear catchy little phrases like: >> >"We Evangelicals see W's [Bush's] election as the will of G-d", or >> >"It is Allah's will" >> >> The scenario which is being played out was prophecized 4000 years >> ago, ergo it is the will of G-d. The Islamists believe that Allah has >> blessed their enterprise too. The fact that Allah isn't god has no >> bearing on their behavior, they believe that he is god, and they will >> do what the Quran tells them to do. > >So, you know for an absolute fact that Allah isn't God? Different name; yod hay vav hay as opposed to Allah, different legal system; Sharia verses Torah, different treatment of women; no need to comment further on that, eh? different outcomes, the nations whose legal systems are based on British Common Law are first and second world economies and democracies, the Islamist nations are, with the exception of Turkey, all third world dictatorships. > >> >the face of the "Will of God", this inevitably invites others to >> >take control over their powerless lives. All the better if these >> >self-proclaimed leaders state they are on a first name basis with >> >God, or Allah. >> >> That's why men study the scriptures. The Islamists do the same >> with the Quran. > >...and your point? That a war between us is inevitable > > >> >As human beings, most of us (if we're lucky) will be confronted with >> >events one is given the rare opportunity to question the underlying >> >Blueprints of Life - for which one in the past had always assumed >> >had been carved in stone. >> >> But you see it is carved in stone > >I think Mel Brooks playing the role of Moses got it right when in a movie he >comes down from the mountain holding three tablets in his arm given to him >by God. "Behold!" Moses shouts to his people, "I give you..." and then one >of the three tablets slips out of his hands hits the ground shattering into >a thousand tiny little pieces. Moses, hesitates for a second and then holds >up the remaining two tablets "...I give you the ten commandments." > >Anybody can have a bad day. There are some things that are not appropriate to make fun of, the Law (Torah) is one of them. > > >> >Regardless of whether one is an Atheist or not, I would hope most >> >individuals would be able to find deep down within themselves a >> >spark of divinity, or least the proxy of divinity. >> >> Have you ever heard of eschatology? Of the verses which were >> prophetic at the time they were written, 75% have come to pass. Does >> that suggest something about the other 25%? Further more, this war >> which is between >> us and Islam, was not my idea, but it was prophecized, and we are >> powerless to stop it. The election of W, along with the controversy >> surrounding it, and the war were all predicted in the Bible Code. > >It wasn't my idea either. The question is what are you going to do about it? > >However, regarding the Bible Code, I suspect some may disagree with you on >that point. > >> >As for electing Bush, I certainly didn't vote for him. >> >> Of course you didn't > >Presumably meaning you did. There was no way that I was going to stand by and allow a man I know to be a traitor, who's only consistent position was in defense of infantacide to be elected President. I not only voted for W, I volunteered to help in his campaign! > >If so, I'm curious. Did you vote for "W" because you personally felt he was >the right man for the job or because it was the will of god? I think that W is way to liberal, however given the choice. Speaking of bible code: You might enjoy reading Carl Sagan's book "Contact". >. However, being the >scientist that he was I speculate that Sagan felt compelled to reconcile >these two areas in his life. Carl got saved before he died. It's funny how staring death in the face will do that for some people >I thought Sagan came up with one of the most >elegant ways I've ever read in a novel of a way to suggest how the Hand of God might be carved into the structure of the universe. John Ankerberg www.johnankerberg.org has a book, Creator and the Cosmos, on his website, the author, the astrophysicist Hugh Ross has the details all of the conditions which are critical for the development of life. If you do a search under Hugh's name you can find the link to the book. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 11 00:10:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2B8AeU9026662; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:10:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2B8AbkS026629; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:10:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:10:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:11:11 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:16 PM 3/11/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:31:22 >-0900: >Hi, >[snip] >>>mv1r1 = mv2r2, i.e. v2 = v1 x r1/r2. (m is the same before and >>>after, because we are dealing in both cases with the identical >>>chunk of water). >> >>Yes, you are certainly right about this. Momentum is conserved. The speed >>of a chunck is thus not constant in a vortex, as I had assumed. In fact, I >>think in your imaginary tank the tangential speed is proportional to 1/r, > >i.e. v2 = v1 x r1/r2 Where r2 is your r, and V1 x r1 is the >proportionality constant. It is a highly idealized picture. This describes the motion of an idealized chunk unaffected by its surroundings other than the force required to reduce its radius. > > >>and the vertical speed to 1/r as well. This is shown in Feynman's *Lectures >>on Physics*, Vol II, 40-10 ff. Fig. 40-12 is a great drawing of your tank, >>showing the surface countour of a sample vortex. >> >>The reason kinetic energy is increased is that work is done on the chunck >>as it moves inward. In the case of a cylinder of water the work is just >>the work of falling, m*g*h. The work is completely analogous to the work > >This is what I also initially assumed, and it must be the case for >a tank in which the water is essentially initially motionless, and >is eventually brought into motion by the vortex action spreading >from the centre. Assuming that some random minor current in the >water near the drain starts the vortex rotating. This is almost never the case though. The vortex is not "started" by some random motion, but rather by residual angular momentum from the filling of the tank. Did you try an experiment? If the water *were* completely still, then it would be started rotating by the coreolis force, but this is a nominal force, and would not exist if the experiment were done on the equator. If the water were completely still, and located on the equator, then it would flow radially only down the drain. >In this case, the velocity at the rim of the tank will eventually >assume a value determined by the gravitational energy gain, call >this velocity V0, with matching AM m x V0 x R0 (where R0 is the >radius of the rim of the tank). The water at the exact rim of the tank always has tangential velocity zero. The water part way between the rim and the hole carries most of the initial angular momentum. >The gravitational component of the final velocity can't exceed >sqrt(2 x g x h), where h is the initial height of the chunk of >water, and g is the Earth's gravitational acceleration at the >surface. This implies a maximum rim velocity due to gravity of >V0 = sqrt(2 x g x h) x Rd/R0. This is not true in general I think. You are attempting to apply conservation to a single chunk. Conservation of angular momentum and energy only applies in the aggregate. The above relation might apply to water on the surface of the vortex which is "falling" along the surface into the drain, but not to water deeper down. It falls along the water-air surface having a cross section curve h = k/r^2 + h0, where h is the height, and r the radius. Water falling inside the surface falls from a lessor height and contracts from a lessor radius. The pressure and work required to accelerate the chunks is done by water falling which is closer to the rim and above the chunk. > >The problem arises, when one starts with a tank full of water that >is already rotating, especially where the initial velocity at the >rim > V0. >If we now follow this down the drain, we find that the energy gain >of the water is greater than would ensue purely from gravity. I think maybe you are ignoring the fact that the water to go down the drain last has less angular momentum and energy than the water going down the drain earlier. The energy of the rim water falling is translated into increased kinetic energy and angular momentum of the water nearer the drain. The water at the bottom and near the rim doesn't even move much toward the drain until the very end, and then its height is low and it has low initial angular momentum as well. > >The energy *gain* per unit mass is: > >1/2 x V0^2 x ((R0/Rd)^2 -1) which clearly is a function of V0! > >(R0 and Rd being constants). > >IOW by choosing a larger V0, we gain more energy, which implies >that either gravity is not the only source, or the water doesn't >flow, or part of the angular momentum is passed off, such that the >velocity can remain constant. > >This was the reasoning that led to my initial question. > >If a large part of the angular momentum is not passed to the >Earth, then where does the energy come from? It appears the problem is you don't have a good estimate of conditions throughout the tank, and thus you don't have valid integration of the energy and angular momentum that goes down the drain. A visualization that may be helpful is a tank that rotates, and is initially rotating. In that case the boundary conditions of the tank are very different, more like you imagine. If it dumps into a lower tank that is free to rotate frictionlessly, and contains a material that soaks up the angular momentum, then a measure could be taken of the angular momentum and energy transferred down the drain. One interesting thing is that some water would actually remain in the upper tank, unable to go down the drain, as you imagined, held there by centrifugal force. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 11 11:06:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2BJ0xsN005611; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:06:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2BIiHCa026756; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:44:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:44:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050311064006.0276e680 mail.dlsi.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:41:16 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: NEW ENERGY TIMES (tm) 10 March 2005 -- Issue #9 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1508730078==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <6ppEFB.A.2hG.-beMCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1508730078==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed NEW ENERGY TIMES TM 10 March 2005 -- Issue #9 Your best source for cold fusion news and information. Copyright 2005 New Energy Times (tm) I tried to send this to the list but I think it exceeded the size limit. If anyone wants it, please send a request. Steve --=====================_1508730078==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" NEW ENERGY TIMES TM 10 March 2005 -- Issue #9
Your best source for cold fusion news and information.
Copyright 2005 New Energy Times (tm)


I tried to send this to the list but I think it exceeded the size limit. If anyone wants it, please send a request.

Steve
--=====================_1508730078==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 11 11:07:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2BJ0xsP005611; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:06:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2BIMwZ7013444; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:22:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:22:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 07:45:11 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here are some more thoughts on the vortex mystery for you. Suppose there is a trough that extends from the cylindrical tank tangentially as diagrammed in Fig. 1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Key: . o . . . o - Drain . . . - Side of tank . . . Fig. 1 - Tank with tangential extension and drain As the water is drained from the tank in Fig. 1 the water in the trough accelerates linearly left to right. When it arrives at the cylinder boundary its linear motion is changed into circular motion. In Fig.1 - water on balance goes from no angular momentum to substantial clockwise angular momentum. There must indeed be a counter-clockwise torque exerted on the tank. In fact, that torque is exerted at the far left end of the trough by water pressure due to the higher water height at the left as compared to the right side of the trough. The trough is off center so torque is obtained. A similar circumstance exists if there are vertial screw type vanes in the tank which impart an angular momentum to the water is it moves downward. The vanes, connected to the tank, apply opposed angular momentum to the tank and thus to the earth. If water is drained from an oblong cross-section tank, like a bath tub, then given any initial angular momentum near the drain, the tub acts like the tank haiving a tangential extension. It can actually create water angular momentum by action with the earth. Now, consider the perfectly cylindrical tank with no vanes. Though the water having a small initial angular velocity falls in spirals, thus accelerating its angular velocity and increasing its kinetic energy through the acceleration by gravity, it actually exerts torque on the tank in its direction of motion (due to finite viscosity). It thus *loses* angular momentum before going down the drain. This viscous coupling to the bottom of the tank is amplified by the increased speed of the fluid near the hole. A tank on axial bearings would actually accelerate angular motion in the direction the water goes down the drain. Any angular momentum exhibited by the vortex must be there initially, and some of that is lost by transfer to the tank bottom. In all cases the overall angular momentum is conserved. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 11 11:07:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2BJ0xsR005611; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:06:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2BIiFa0026734; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:44:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:44:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rra4i$oav0eu mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.90,157,1107752400"; d="scan'208"; a="816808414:sNHT5439007968" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: RE: OT: The will of God Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:41:38 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Thomas, > From: thomas malloy > >So, you know for an absolute fact that Allah isn't God? > Different name; yod hay vav hay as opposed to Allah, > different legal system; Sharia verses Torah, different treatment > of women; no need to comment further on that, eh? different > outcomes, the nations whose legal systems are based on British > Common Law are first and second world economies and democracies, > the Islamist nations are, with the exception of Turkey, all > third world dictatorships. In other words, if you believe in Allah you must prefer dictatorships over democracies? Allah = dictatorships? That's why Allah isn't god? ... >>> That's why men study the scriptures. The Islamists do the same >>> with the Quran. > >>...and your point? > >That a war between us is inevitable I guess there must be some sense of comfort in believing that one has already read the last chapter of the book. An old acquaintance of mine always used to first read the last pages of a novel that she was considering purchasing, bless her heart. >>> But you see it is carved in stone > >>I think Mel Brooks playing the role of Moses got it right when >> in a movie he comes down from the mountain holding three tablets >> in his arm given to him by God. "Behold!" Moses shouts to his >> people, "I give you..." and then one of the three tablets slips >> out of his hands hits the ground shattering into a thousand tiny >> little pieces. Moses, hesitates for a second and then holds >> up the remaining two tablets "...I give you the ten commandments." >> >>Anybody can have a bad day. >There are some things that are not appropriate to make fun of, the >Law (Torah) is one of them. You might want to take that up with Mr. Brooks. Be sure to tell Mel it was inappropriate of him to have made fun of the Torah. I'm curious. Do you think God has a sense of humor? BTW, I'm not joking. >> >Regardless of whether one is an Atheist or not, I would hope most >> >individuals would be able to find deep down within themselves a >> >spark of divinity, or least the proxy of divinity. >> >> Have you ever heard of eschatology? Of the verses which were >> prophetic at the time they were written, 75% have come to pass. Does >> that suggest something about the other 25%? Further more, this war >> which is between >> us and Islam, was not my idea, but it was prophecized, and we are >> powerless to stop it. The election of W, along with the controversy >> surrounding it, and the war were all predicted in the Bible Code. > >It wasn't my idea either. The question is what are you going to do about it? Not voting for "W" is what I did about it. Voting for Kerry is what I did about it. Obviously, there will be more that I'll have to do about it. > There was no way that I was going to stand by and allow a man > I know to be a traitor, who's only consistent position was in > defense of infantacide to be elected President. I not only > voted for W, I volunteered to help in his campaign! It is probably not a good idea to get into the contentious abortion debate here in vortex-l. >> If so, I'm curious. Did you vote for "W" because you personally >> felt he was the right man for the job or because it was the will >> of god? > I think that W is way to liberal, however given the choice. Kind of like the lesser of two evils? So, voting for "W" was your personal choice, meaning your choice may not have had all that much to do with the will of god? > Speaking of bible code: You might enjoy reading Carl Sagan's > book "Contact". >> However, being the >> scientist that he was I speculate that Sagan felt compelled to >> reconcile these two areas in his life. > Carl got saved before he died. It's funny how staring death in > the face will do that for some people So, you know Carl got "saved" before he died? Did you talk to Ann Druyan, his late wife about alleged conversion? How do you explain the following comment found at link: http://www.answers.com/topic/carl-sagan "...Thoughts on Life and Death at the End of the Millennium, published after Sagan's death, contains essays written by Sagan, such as his views on abortion, and Ann Druyan's account of his death as a non-believer." ... > John Ankerberg www.johnankerberg.org has a book, Creator and > the Cosmos, on his website, the author, the astrophysicist Hugh > Ross has the details all of the conditions which are critical > for the development of life. If you do a search under Hugh's > name you can find the link to the book. Personally, I've never had an issue reconciling my views on the concept of "Intelligent Design" with the current evolving theories of evolution. IOW, I don't necessarily think these two points of view are incompatible with each other, but that's just me. Viewing Ankerberg's web site I noticed there is a downloadable link, "Did Jesus Rise From the Dead Transcript." Next to the link is a painting of the ascendant Jesus floating above the clouds. Being an artist I've always found it odd that Jesus is often depicted by artists (particularly western artists) as a very Caucasian looking being. All any artist can do is interpret the world as he/she sees it, the key word being "interpret". I take it much of Ankerberg's views are open to interpretation as well? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 11 11:15:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2BJEZr5013408; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:14:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2BJEKAH013249; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:14:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:14:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050311191046.78768.qmail web54505.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:10:46 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: RE: OT: The will of God To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <99EO0.A.ZOD.K4eMCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Not to interrupt, thomas malloy wrote: > > Steven Johnson posted; > > > > > >So, you know for an absolute fact that Allah isn't > God? > > Different name; yod hay vav hay as opposed to Allah, > different legal > system; Sharia verses Torah, different treatment of > women; no need to > comment further on that, eh? different outcomes, the > nations whose > legal systems are based on British Common Law are > first and second > world economies and democracies, the Islamist > nations are, with the > exception of Turkey, all third world dictatorships. > Same God, different interpretation. The Jewish/christian god has NO name, this is why He/She is referred to as God. Allah is arabic for god, so the translation is the same. Brief (and simplified) History Judaism was first. Some jews believed that the messiah came and became Christians, other jews continued to wait for his arrival. Some Jews followed a new prophet and became Muslims, others retained their original belief structure. The government is unrelated to religion, rather it has to do with how religious rule was enforced. You could base similar arguments on the differences between Christian and Jewish countries or even between different Christian denominations. As for prophecy, that's all in the interpretation, which never seems to happen until after the event has occured. If you want to convince me, you are going to have to find a very specific prophecy, something that says "on this day this will happen to these people" and you are going to have to find it before that date and have it witnessed in some fashion. Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 11 15:15:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2BN0eLM005618; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:14:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2BJGJ1c014485; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:16:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:16:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003001c5264c$c2c09c60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <7n6231hrtp6il1eusveugvqe3oa55k5kgn@4ax.com> Subject: Space fountain, was vortex mystery Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 07:11:46 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There is one use of a man-made vortex which was pursued in theory years ago, which might be worthy of a rethink. That is the a version of the "space fountain" where a "reversed tornado" type of vortex is created, from the ground-up, above a specially designed power plant using the focused high speed exhaust from tubines to form a tight helix, like a tornado. The site is chose so that normal weather patterns are self-enhancing for this. The idea being to keep the vortex helix very tight untill the jet stream is reached, and use it to propel specially designed payloads into the jet stream where third-stage rockets can complete the necessary acceleration for orbit. This would require a succession of unusual-looking (spinning toroidal ?) payload structures with "virtual hooks" or airfoils for surrounding and coupling onto the vortex, one-after-another. About 80% of the initial fuel requirement and 90% of the cost-per-kg, for a stream of smaller-sized payloads could be eliminated this way, theoretically. Then the payload would need to be collected and assempled by robotics or a dedicated space station. Several tons could be lauched per minute, or say 25 million kg per day until the weather patterns changed. From a distance it sould look like a beaded string, but with the beads accelerating into space. The "Lofstrom loop" was one of the predecessor ideas to this concept of a virtual space elevator, which may actually make more sense than the high tensile carbon-fiber idea variety, which Jed mentions in his book. Lofstrom's idea used a "growing" magnetic assembly, but could be significantly updated for use with magnetic nanoparticles being seeded into the reverse tornado vortex... In any case, with cheap energy from LENR/ZPE, the idea would make sense. In fact, when the 'reverse tornado' is seeded with cheap iron-oxide nanoparticles and magnetized, it should provide both greater lift capability and allow a tighter helix than an unmagnetized reverse tornado. The payloads going up would actually help maintain and strengthen the vortex helix strucutre, if they contained SC toroidal magnets themselves. When done above an ocean-going ship (a converted aircraft carrier) the cast-off iron oxide would serve double duty, following several weeks of "heavy lifting" of a billions kg into orbit. This airborne powder would disperse over the ocean and settle to fertilize plankton and eventually remove lots of CO2 - not only is it biodegradable, but a super-fertilizer. Hey, this is "vortex" right... we have to live up to the name. And, for the survival of civiliztion, we may need to put some kind of mylar band of mirrors over the equator in 20 years, to reverse global warming, or if that problem has been solved by ZPE/LENR, then to put mirrors in orbit to increase the growing season for pineapples in Antartica.. ;-) Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 11 15:31:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2BNUkKO026809; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:30:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2BNUZRV026686; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:30:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:30:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:52:01 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Space fountain, was vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: <95Ijw.A.ugG.VoiMCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:11 AM 3/11/5, Jones Beene wrote: [snip] >And, for the survival of civiliztion, we may need to put >some kind of mylar band of mirrors over the equator in 20 >years, to reverse global warming, ... [snip] Silvered mylar can't come close to nano-powder for watts/kg reflectivity. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 11 15:38:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2BNbfKO032083; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:37:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2BNbXgI032024; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:37:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:37:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005101c52655$e1a3a100$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050310015229.88871.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:17:54 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "leaking pen" > have you read the book midas world? Right-on....talk about prescient, if you can stand the quirkiness ... Pohl was undoubtedly the inspiration for the comedy writers of Seinfeld (just a guess), with his "reductio ad absurdum" of nearly every American negative trend or whim - he spotted "super-size-it" 30 years before Madison Ave got hold of the idea .... and wrote about an inverted energy crisis in "The Midas Plague" ... in the early fifties, but yet there is something in his writing that doesn't appeal to everyone's "satisfaction circuits"... kind of the same thing that turns-off some readers (not me) to the writing of PKD... you know, the 100 pages of pulp per week turned out to pay the rent (in the days before spell-checkers and good editors) all for the few bucks per page from the (former)cheapskates at Astounding/Analog. BTW my spell checker caught this one, but I had originally spelled "Astounding" as "Asstounding" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 11 15:38:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2BNc6KO032408; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:38:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2BNc3dM032327; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:38:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:38:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220053511212136160 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, March 11, 2005 Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:21:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8ad345c831322ab2b8d0310f19684df6086936b69e59fefa2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.97.79 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 3/11/2005 12:27:37 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, March 11, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 11 Mar 05 Washington, DC 1. HANS BETHE, 1907-2005: WHO BECAME THE CONSCIENCE OF SCIENCE. "I always wanted to find out how the world is made, what it is made of, what holds it together, what makes it operate the way it does," he once explained. He was confident that the answers can only be found by science, and at 98 he was still finding them. 2. TEMPLETON PRIZE: CHARLES TOWNES CITED FOR SPIRITUAL PROGRESS. In his famous paper, The Convergence of Science and Religion, Townes wrote that "Understanding the order in the universe and understanding the purpose in the universe are not identical, but they are also not very far apart." They are a universe apart. Steven Weinberg, another great Noble-laureate physicist, wrote "The more the universe seem comprehensible, the more it seems pointless." Nevertheless, by our count Townes is the sixth physicist to win the Templeton, which in dollars is larger than the Noble Prize. Others awarded the Templeton include Charles Colson of Watergate fame, and the Rev. Dr. Billy Graham. 3. NASA: TERMINATION IS PLANNED FOR HEALTHY BUT AGING MISSIONS. No, it's not another hospital euthanasia scandal. This time it's active NASA science missions being turned off to free money for the President's goofy Vision for Space Exploration. According to a story in Nature this week, managers of seven missions that are "past their prime" (man, this is cold) have been told there is no money to keep operating past October. That includes two Voyagers looking for the heliopause, where true interstellar space begins. Pioneer 10 started the search, but it was passed by the younger, faster Voyagers 8 years ago. (Isn't that always the way?) The nuclear furnace of Pioneer 10 finally grew cold two years ago http://www.aps.org/WN/WN03/wn030703.cfm. Is this just the old "Washington Monument ploy," where they count on Congress kicking in a little extra from school lunches or something? What's next? 4. THE VISION: THERE'S GOING TO BE "STRUCTURAL UNEMPLOYMENT." Although NASA is the only science agency with an increase in the asking budget (see WN last week), the Washington Post reported this morning that NASA is planning a 15.3 percent workforce cut by the summer of 2006. That's about 2,680 jobs, saving the agency about $268M. The money is needed to refocus on the Moon- Mars exploration initiative. Development of a "Crew Exploration Vehicle" to succeed the space shuttle is the major new effort. NASA shows every sign of repeating all the mistakes of the past. At a time when the agency desperately needs bold leadership, it's on autopilot. There are not even fresh rumors of who might replace O'Keefe as Administrator. The betting is that it will be an astronaut, which would firmly lock NASA into the past. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 11 15:39:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2BNccKO000372; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:38:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2BNcNbc032588; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:38:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:38:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050311174002.02c12088 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:40:22 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <49gieC.A.08H.sviMCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortex not working? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 11 16:18:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2C0I4KO024879; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:18:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2C0I1Fr024825; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:18:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:18:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:19:47 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: While I agree from the standpoint of personal transportation and daily commuting, it's an argument that is quickly lost with the wife with respect to transporting 3 kids around. There is no safe way to get 3 car seats / booster seats in any mid-size car or wagon. The 2nd row seat is only wide enough in the bigger vehicles, the 3rd row seat only practical for the parent to reach in a mini-van. Then go shopping... it takes every bit of my engineering skill to get all the groceries in with us. With the proliferation of SUV's on the road, you take your life in hand every time you get on the road with anything smaller then them and be on the losing end of conservation of momentum. Even the insurance companies charge more for SUV liability policies because you are 2-3 times more likely to severely injure or kill the other driver/passengers in an accident. The hybrid Explorer is a step in the right direction, but it's not enough. They need to make a hybrid mini-van to have the largest impact on reducing the big car syndrome. -john -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:45 AM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: RE: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline John Steck wrote: >Bet that outrage doesn't stop you from driving... you patronize the system >every time you fill up. The talk is easy, the walk is a whole lot harder. 8^) Actually I do, in fact, walk. Not so much in winter. And I am not going to buy another Volvo if all they offer are models that get lower MPG than the 1995 model. That's outrageous! The point is, it would not take much to reduce consumption. Some columnist the other day pointed out that most people who have SUVs also have ordinary cars, and if they would all leave the SUV home one or two days a week and drive the car instead, it would save a phenomenal amount of fuel. I have long felt that the energy crisis would be much easier to fix, even by conventional means, than most people realize. - Jed -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.1 - Release Date: 05/03/09 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 11 16:30:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2C0UBKO032623; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:30:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2C0U8sw032590; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:30:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:30:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vortex mystery Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 11:29:56 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2C0U3KO032499 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 11 Mar 2005 07:45:11 -0900: Hi, [snip] >direction the water goes down the drain. Any angular momentum exhibited by >the vortex must be there initially, and some of that is lost by transfer to >the tank bottom. > >In all cases the overall angular momentum is conserved. [snip] Correct, but not really the issue. I had already assumed that such was the case. The issue is where does the *energy* come from? Put simply, 1 kg of water that changes it's radius by a factor of 10, undergoes roughly[1] a ten fold velocity increase. This implies a 100 fold kinetic energy *increase*. Where does that energy come from? It can't all come from gravity, because gravity can only supply a fixed amount, equal to m x g x h, whereas the increase in energy is a function of the initial velocity, and is therefore different for each initial velocity, and consequently not always equal to m x g x h. You pointed out that angular momentum goes down the drain with the water. This is something I hadn't really considered, but it only serves to sharpen the problem. It is precisely the angular momentum that goes down the drain, which is *not* passed out of the system before the drain is reached. [1] In fact it will be slightly less, due to friction as you pointed out. Making the tank deeper will reduce this loss on average, because friction with the bottom will apply to a smaller fraction of the water. Or if you prefer, we can fill it with liquid helium instead, so that there is no friction. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 11 17:40:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2C1dkKO000536; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:39:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2C1dh2s000514; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:39:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:39:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <33408677.1110591580925.JavaMail.root wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 20:39:40 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: More immediate threat: $2.10/gal gasoline Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck writes: > There is no safe way to get 3 car seats / > booster seats in any mid-size car or wagon. Mini-vans are ideal for that, and they get good mileage. Better than my station wagon. Good safety ratings too. > The hybrid Explorer is a step in the right direction, but it's not enough. > They need to make a hybrid mini-van to have the largest impact on reducing > the big car syndrome. They sell hybrid mini-vans in Japan. They should show up in the U.S. in a few years. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 11 18:21:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2C2LVKO021947; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:21:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2C2LS18021929; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:21:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:21:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:22:03 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:29 AM 3/12/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 11 Mar 2005 07:45:11 >-0900: >Hi, >[snip] >>direction the water goes down the drain. Any angular momentum exhibited by >>the vortex must be there initially, and some of that is lost by transfer to >>the tank bottom. >> >>In all cases the overall angular momentum is conserved. >[snip] >Correct, but not really the issue. I had already assumed that such >was the case. The issue is where does the *energy* come from? The COAM statement above was just an afterthought. My main point earlier was *what energy?*. You don't have an accounting of the energy on a system basis. > >Put simply, 1 kg of water that changes it's radius by a factor of >10, undergoes roughly[1] a ten fold velocity increase. This >implies a 100 fold kinetic energy *increase*. There again is an example of treating a part of the system like it was the whole system! You just can't do that. The short simple answer is the 1 kg of water, if that's all you have, can't all go down the drain at a 10 fold increase in angular velocity. The kinetic energy of parts of the system remain either as (1) water which can't go down the drain (frictionless version, or rotating tank) due to centrifugal force or (2) water which depletes its kinetic energy before it goes down the drain and transfers its momentum in part to the earth via the tank and viscosity (normal verison). > >Where does that energy come from? What energy? You haven't intergated anything. You are treating the entirety of the water as a single lump at fixed radius. You just can't do that. You don't know from these particulars (1) what the initial velocities are (on a finite element basis), (2) the total system angular momentum, (3) the total initial starting kinetic energy of the system, (4) what angular momentum and kinetic energy is actually dumped down the drain (though it is clearly not nearly as much as you estimate unless the initial total momentum is very small), (5) how much kinetic energy and momentum remains in water which can not go down the drain due to centrifugal force or (6) what kinetic energy is dumped into heat and corresponding momentum dumped to the earth in order to allow all the water to go down the drain. > >It can't all come from gravity, because gravity can only supply a >fixed amount, equal to m x g x h, whereas the increase in energy >is a function of the initial velocity, and is therefore different >for each initial velocity, and consequently not always equal to m >x g x h. The m x g x h integrated throughout the mass may well be way too *much* energy. Almost all that energy could easily be converted to a combination of vertical velocity, water heat, and tank heat, provided the initial system angular velocity is very small. If m x g x h provides too little energy, then there is water which cannot go down the hole until its angular velocity is reduced by turning it into heat. The excess angular momentum in this case is indeed transfered to the earth as its corresponding energy is reduced to heat. >You pointed out that angular momentum goes down the drain with the >water. This is something I hadn't really considered, but it only >serves to sharpen the problem. It provides a perspective to solve the problem. All the energy ends up as heat, kinetic energy going down the drain, or (in a frictionless version or rotating tank version only) as kinetic energy of water remaining in the tank and which can not go down the drain. All the initial momentum of the system ends up either going down the drain or being transferred to the earth in a process where the corresponding kinetic energy is reduced to heat. >It is precisely the angular >momentum that goes down the drain, which is *not* passed out of >the system before the drain is reached. That angular momentum is still in the water if that water has not gone down the drain. If there is not enough kinetic energy available to make its radius reduce, then that radius remains fixed - it can not go down the drain, it can not reduce its radius of rotation unless some other energy M x g x h comes from some other M in the system. In a friction world, however, the angular momentum of water which can not go down the drain is eventually reduced due to viscosity and heat generation, so that water can all eventually go down the drain. It just doesn't carry all the angular momentum that you would estimate based on the simplistic model. > >[1] In fact it will be slightly less, due to friction as you >pointed out. Making the tank deeper will reduce this loss on >average, because friction with the bottom will apply to a smaller >fraction of the water. Or if you prefer, we can fill it with >liquid helium instead, so that there is no friction. > The case for a frictionless liquid is similar to the case for the rotating tank. The mass containing the angular momentum for which there is no energy available to put down the drain remains behind. Superfluids, though, would probably find a way to crawl over the outside of the tank! 8^) I hope all this makes sense. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 11 18:35:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2C2Z0KO026558; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:35:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2C2Yubp026531; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:34:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:34:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002901c526ac$10d4d060$91027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Test Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 20:34:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01C52679.C5B578F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C52679.C5B578F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0026_01C52679.C5B88630" ------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C52679.C5B88630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJed, your test patterns is coming across the screen as a smiley = face ( grin) Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C52679.C5B88630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jed, your test patterns is coming across the screen as a smiley = face (=20 grin)
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C52679.C5B88630-- ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C52679.C5B578F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002401c526ac$1046c130$91027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C52679.C5B578F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 12 08:30:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2CGUKKO008567; Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:30:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2CGSdN1006908; Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:28:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:28:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005601c52720$5a3e5b80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: OT Sim-Syncretism Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:27:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0053_01C526DD.4AA9D840" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <0CrjwD.A.orB.1ixMCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C526DD.4AA9D840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not sure how this thread got stated on vortex, but... All this foolish chatter about some other culture's God being deficient = - not nearly as good/powerful/divine as the God which my cult prefers, = got me to thinking about how to get the thinking members of society to = move beyond this semantic silliness - this "mine-is-bigger" school-boy = mentality of deo-machismo. The approach of the future will be the Sim. In the past, this was a = literary genre called the "spiritual game" but now with computers, each = of us will soon be able to simulate our personal divinity, and evolve = that composite to become a voluntary group control vehicle. The Greeks = invented the "game," Dante turned in into horror, but Hesse revived it, = and now the information age is set to complete the difficult chore with = the Sim. WHAT IS THE GBG? Herman Hesse's Nobel Prize winning tour-de-force, "Das Glasperlenspiel" = or "The Glass Bead Game" lays the foundations for both an intense = intellectual experience, perhaps an ever-expanding philosophy and = evolving religion - and certainly a growing cottage industry. The = eventual goal would be to integrate religious, scientific and esoteric = knowledge, cross-cultural spirituality, neo-Platonic-Pythagorean number = iconicity, and most importantly: A.I. plus... well, you name it, all = into the final syncretism. Since you must give the game a name, Herman's = spiel of is a good place to start looking. syn=B7cre=B7tism, n. Reconciliation or fusion of differing systems of = belief. .... If you want real glass beads, you can even add a "Go" game into the = mix, as the HH derived variants do not themselves seem as interesting = for a game-game... but the larger subject of the synthesis of religious = beliefs through the game metaphor is of keen interest to anyone with a = combination of spiritual need or anxiety, a questioning mind, and even a = mild distrust of authority.=20 Of all the many traits that come together in forming *wisdom* perhaps = this surprising one: a mild distrust of authority, is the most important = of all... if only because it is so rare to accompany any individual out = of rigorous formal training. The formal education system, like all good = fiction, requires a 'suspension of disbelief' for such an extended = duration that it often never recovers. Hesse himself learned to become = distrustful of authority, despite a classical education, and had the = courage to renounce his citizenship as protest to war. Let's make it clear that this does not mean that any well established = belief structure is wrong, sometimes wrong, or even seldom wrong. It = only means that the possibility of every established belief structure = being wrong should *always* remain an active possibility. Science itself = is in its infancy, despite what the arbiters of science journalism might = want you to believe, and religion has not even reached teenaged = maturity. "The Glass Bead Game" is - or may evolve into a broader metaphor for = what has been called the dance with god, or "Divine Lila" - the true = rapture that church-mice never get to experience by faking glossolalia = of fainting in public. This metaphor has been expressed by "Gnostic" = traditions and by more modern ones which want to sound ancient and = mysterious. The players, the Magister Ludi (Masters of the Game), will = use computers nowadays as their instruments of Wisdom and Magick. They = will not need to proselytize or testify, except as voluntarily = indulgences online as there will be an ongoing Sim which will spare them = from a cold pew and the ape-like obligatory "amens" after ever thump of = the book.=20 Had Hesse known about computers, fractals, Penrose tiles, and = Mathematica, there is no doubt he would have included all these = diversion into his utopia (or pseudopia) for added richness. This will = surely, under some name, end-up encompassing all religion, the = Ki-essence of the life-force, the evolving group-mind (Rupert's 'meme = pool' or Teilhard's 'noosphere'), the priesthood of believers and even a = good business model for those seeking to milk bucks from geeks desirous = of participatory spirituality in these post-modern times - all folding = into the vast and infinite wisdom of the www.=20 The GBG was finished 1943, the culmination of 11 years of writing, and = includes a novel, 13 poems, and 3 short stories. The new reader might = enjoy the novel more by reading the short stories first: 'The = Rainmaker,' 'The Father Confessor,' and 'The Indian Life.' The = underlying theme of the whole is not seen clearly until the end - that = theme being that only through 'forfeiture of self' can one find = redemption or awakening. But in general, if you have absorbed Douglas = Hofstadter or Jorge Luis Borges, then you have gotten most of the way = through the gist of the novel part in a little more updated way. There = is much 'dated' humor and linguistic word-play in the GBG, but in a = time-warp better appreciated by the Muttersprachers among us. The = parodies - of such icons of the time as Nietzsche and Thomas Mann, are = not as biting now as in the 1940s. The novel is not for everyone - but = then again, how many adherents to anything understand their dusty = scriptures very well? The evolving Sim is what we are after. The theme of 'forfeiture of self' and voluntary aestheticism in pursuit = of a nobler cause, should not be minimalized just because the learning = experience is an all-consuming substitute for ego-aggrandizement. This = anti-ego goal is canonical in most religions- particularly Christianity = (where it is generally ignored) and many forms of yogas and Hinduism, = where it is more fully practiced. Few Christians will fit through the = *eye of the needle* these days... but perhaps that too can be = rationalized away as only applying to Israelite farmers. There is no = fool like a selective fool.=20 The pursuit of wisdom without being tied to irrational dogma makes the = game unique - and thus its allure, which will increase with the Sim. = The melancholy realism of Hesse and his urging the reader to question = accepted values, and even to rebel against the system, made him very = popular in the counter-culture days of the 60-70s... when even the = Beatles made the obligatory mystical pilgrimage to India, following in = HH's footsteps. Later as WWII became inevitable, Hesse became an = outspoken pacifist and war-resister, renouncing his citizenship and = becoming Swiss. He was, in fact, the proto-beatnik-hippy but on a = 'natural trip.' Before GBG, Hesse wrote Siddhartha, his story of = spiritual awakening spent "on the road to Benares". And after returning = from the Ganges with parasites unknown to medicine, he never left home = again - endemic illness being part of his natural trip.=20 The "game" was set in the sequestered province of "Castalia," not unlike = Switzerland. This is a sterile world of classical academia revolving = around theory, analysis, interpretation, and debate - curiously all = elements of the older forms of Judaism. Absent from Castalia however, = are creativity, originality, and experiment... and earthy fun. The = protagonist, Joseph Knecht is not unhappy with this till near the end of = his journey. He also lived in subcultures like the "Bamboo Grove," where = he learned to meditate, cast the I-Ching, learn the Tao, and so on. = Later at a Benedictine monastery he was the student of the restrained = dogma of Father Jacobus. Knecht learned everything in East-meets-West = duality in order to prep for "the game" and was elevated to the role of = Magister Ludi. Eventually, however, he feels the need for active = participation in life, and leaves Castalia and to becomes a tutor. On = the second day of his new life, he accidentally drowns. Very = existential, no? Actually, drowning itself is iconic - an implied = "rebirth"... as baptism reminds us. For Knecht (which means "servant" in German) knowledge was his life - = but went unapplied, and in some ways this emasculation of = knowledge-for-its-own-sake is the subtheme. The conflict between the = intellectual and the participatory life is crucial to understanding the = novel. It might even help to see the Michael Douglas movie, "The Game" = which can be argued to be a further step in the "Spiritual Gaming" genre = - demonstrating the evanescence of status for even the most prominent of = citizens. Other movies, like "The Thirteenth Floor," "Matrix", "Dark = City" and are visions of our present state of unreal/reality where = hidden dualism (our game-role) is put into extreme focus. Truth is = stranger than fiction, but perhaps good fiction is more genuine than = reality. The "human predicament" may not be human at all - as we are = little more than game pieces- semi-autonomous pawns who have been = programmed for the amusement of some higher intelligence. Nowadays we = all could be operating as avatars in a computer program, which is what = Hesse's Castalia would have been, had he lived 50 years into the future. = The GBG, although an artform which came before the computer age, was a = spiel so prescient and obviously pointed in that direction, that the = former cult-novel may one day evolve into this computer-based = philosophy-religion... who knows... even a monastic tradition? In = short, the basic ideas are the same epistemological and ontological = precepts of all of religion, or for that matter of A.I.:=20 Categorization - collect and order knowledge Analogy - cross-relate ideas by likeness=20 Connection - define the "verbs" - the ways to link ideas by function and = action Contemplation -- contemplate functional ideas in a broader context=20 Formalism -- establish rules, rituals and guidelines Iconicity -- compress ideas, use as metaphor and symbol=20 Fusion, Syncretism, Objectivation -- reconcile disparate, even opposing = beliefs, find synergy, solve new problems ...and last of all,=20 Rebirth and reincarnation into the world which you, the pawn, improved = if only by your own level of participatory and existential angst. =20 Isn't that any (older) divinity's ultimate weakness... not being able to = participate at the lowest level? The Greek gods didn't have that = problem, of course, but then again, few Greeks thought of them as = anything more than beautiful Iconography. Which is the limit of how any = human can view God, some might argue. Hesse is just the starting point for emerging syncretism, and we can do = it under his name because he is long dead, and never was ambitious = enough to portray himself as anyone's guru or messiah. He was one of the = first selfless modern thinkers to open the door of perception beyond an = outdated legacy... beyond which gate "knowledge" seeks to find its own = justification, without the necessity of bodily participation. Computers = will be able to do that soon, and the three letter name of divinity may = shorten to two. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C526DD.4AA9D840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not sure how this thread got stated on vortex, but...
 
All this foolish chatter about some other culture's God being = deficient -=20 not nearly as good/powerful/divine as the God which my cult prefers, got = me to=20 thinking about how to get the thinking members of society to move beyond = this=20 semantic silliness - this "mine-is-bigger" school-boy mentality of=20 deo-machismo.
 
The approach of the future will be the Sim. In the past, this was a = literary genre called the "spiritual game" but now with=20 computers,  each of us will soon be able to simulate our = personal=20 divinity, and evolve that composite to become a voluntary group control = vehicle.=20 The Greeks invented the "game," Dante turned in into horror, but Hesse = revived=20 it, and now the information age is set to complete the difficult chore = with the=20 Sim.
 
WHAT IS THE GBG?
 
Herman Hesse's Nobel Prize winning tour-de-force, "Das=20 Glasperlenspiel" or "The Glass Bead Game"  lays the foundations for = both an=20 intense intellectual experience, perhaps an ever-expanding philosophy = and=20 evolving religion - and certainly a growing cottage industry. The = eventual goal=20 would be to integrate religious, scientific and esoteric=20 knowledge, cross-cultural spirituality, = neo-Platonic-Pythagorean=20 number iconicity, and most importantly: A.I. plus... well, you name = it, all=20 into the final syncretism. Since you must give the game a = name,=20 Herman's spiel of is a good place to start looking.
 
syn=B7cre=B7tism, n.  Reconciliation or fusion of = differing systems=20 of belief.
 
.... If you want real glass beads, you can even add a "Go" game = into the=20 mix, as the HH derived variants do not themselves seem as = interesting for a game-game... but the larger subject of the synthesis = of=20 religious beliefs through the game metaphor is of keen = interest to=20 anyone with a combination of spiritual need or anxiety, a questioning = mind, and=20 even a mild distrust of authority.=20
 
Of all the many traits that come together in forming *wisdom* = perhaps this=20 surprising one: a mild distrust of authority, is the most important of = all... if=20 only because it is so rare to accompany any individual out of rigorous = formal=20 training. The formal education system, like all good fiction, = requires a=20 'suspension of disbelief' for such an extended duration that it = often never=20 recovers. Hesse himself learned to become distrustful of authority, = despite a=20 classical education, and had the courage to renounce his = citizenship as=20 protest to war.
 
Let's make it clear that this does not mean that any well = established=20 belief structure is wrong, sometimes wrong, or even seldom wrong. It = only means=20 that the possibility of every established belief structure being wrong = should=20 *always* remain an active possibility. Science itself is in its infancy, = despite=20 what the arbiters of science journalism might want you to believe, and=20 religion has not even reached teenaged maturity.
 
"The Glass Bead Game" is - or may evolve into a broader metaphor = for what=20 has been called the dance with god, or "Divine Lila" - the true rapture = that=20 church-mice never get to experience by faking glossolalia of fainting in = public. This metaphor has been expressed by "Gnostic" traditions = and by=20 more modern ones which want to sound ancient and mysterious. The = players,=20 the Magister Ludi (Masters of the Game), will use computers = nowadays as=20 their instruments of Wisdom and Magick. They will not need to = proselytize=20 or testify, except as voluntarily indulgences online as there will = be an=20 ongoing Sim which will spare them from a cold pew and the ape-like = obligatory=20 "amens" after ever thump of the book.
 
Had Hesse known about computers, fractals, Penrose tiles, and = Mathematica,=20 there is no doubt he would have included all these diversion into his = utopia (or=20 pseudopia) for added richness. This will surely, under some name, = end-up=20 encompassing all religion, the Ki-essence of the life-force, the = evolving=20 group-mind (Rupert's 'meme pool' or Teilhard's 'noosphere'), the = priesthood of=20 believers and even a good business model for those seeking to milk bucks = from=20 geeks desirous of participatory spirituality in = these post-modern=20 times - all folding into the vast and infinite wisdom of the www. =
 
The GBG was finished 1943, the culmination of 11 years of writing, = and=20 includes a novel, 13 poems, and 3 short stories. The new reader might = enjoy the=20 novel more by reading the short stories first: 'The Rainmaker,' = 'The Father=20 Confessor,' and 'The Indian Life.' The underlying theme of the = whole is not=20 seen clearly until the end - that theme being that only = through=20 'forfeiture of self' can one find redemption or awakening. But in = general,=20 if you have absorbed Douglas Hofstadter or Jorge Luis Borges, then you = have=20 gotten most of the way through the gist of the novel part in a little = more=20 updated way. There is much 'dated' humor and linguistic word-play = in the=20 GBG, but in a time-warp better appreciated by the Muttersprachers among = us. The=20 parodies - of such icons of the time as Nietzsche and Thomas Mann, = are not=20 as biting now as in the 1940s. The novel is not for everyone - but then = again,=20 how many adherents to anything understand their dusty scriptures = very well?=20 The evolving Sim is what we are after.
 
The theme of 'forfeiture of self' and voluntary = aestheticism in=20 pursuit of a nobler cause, should not be minimalized just because = the=20 learning experience is an all-consuming substitute for=20 ego-aggrandizement. This anti-ego goal is canonical in most = religions-=20 particularly Christianity (where it is generally ignored) and many forms = of=20 yogas and Hinduism, where it is more fully practiced. Few = Christians will=20 fit through the *eye of the needle* these days... but perhaps that too = can be=20 rationalized away as only applying to Israelite farmers. There is = no fool=20 like a selective fool.
 
The pursuit of wisdom without being tied to irrational dogma makes = the game=20 unique - and thus its allure, which will increase with the Sim.  = The=20 melancholy realism of Hesse and his urging the reader to question = accepted=20 values, and even to rebel against the system, made him very popular in = the=20 counter-culture days of the 60-70s... when even the Beatles made=20 the obligatory mystical pilgrimage to India, following = in HH's=20 footsteps. Later as WWII became inevitable, Hesse became an outspoken = pacifist=20 and war-resister, renouncing his citizenship and becoming = Swiss. He=20 was, in fact, the proto-beatnik-hippy but on a 'natural = trip.' Before=20 GBG, Hesse wrote Siddhartha, his story of  spiritual awakening = spent=20 "on the road to Benares". And after returning from the Ganges with = parasites=20 unknown to medicine, he never left home again - endemic illness being = part of=20 his natural trip.
 
The "game" was set in the sequestered province of "Castalia," = not=20 unlike Switzerland. This is a sterile world of classical academia = revolving=20 around theory, analysis, interpretation, and debate - curiously all = elements of the older forms of Judaism. Absent from Castalia however, = are=20 creativity, originality, and experiment... and earthy fun. The = protagonist,=20 Joseph Knecht is not unhappy with this till near the end of his = journey. He=20 also lived in subcultures like the "Bamboo Grove," where he learned to = meditate,=20 cast the I-Ching, learn the Tao, and so on. Later at a Benedictine = monastery he=20 was the student of the restrained dogma of Father Jacobus. Knecht = learned=20 everything in East-meets-West duality in order to prep for "the game" = and was=20 elevated to the role of Magister Ludi. Eventually, however, he feels the = need=20 for active participation in life, and leaves Castalia and to becomes a = tutor. On=20 the second day of his new life, he accidentally drowns. Very = existential, no?=20 Actually, drowning itself is iconic - an implied "rebirth"... as = baptism=20 reminds us.
 
For Knecht (which means "servant" in German) knowledge was his life = - but=20 went unapplied, and in some ways this emasculation of=20 knowledge-for-its-own-sake is the subtheme. The conflict between = the=20 intellectual and the participatory life is crucial to understanding the = novel.=20 It might even help to see the Michael Douglas movie, "The Game" which = can be=20 argued to be a further step in the "Spiritual Gaming" genre -=20 demonstrating the evanescence of status for even the most prominent of=20 citizens. Other movies, like "The Thirteenth Floor,"  = "Matrix", "Dark=20 City" and are visions of our present state of unreal/reality where = hidden=20 dualism (our game-role) is put into extreme focus. Truth is = stranger than=20 fiction, but perhaps good fiction is more genuine than reality. The = "human=20 predicament" may not  be human at all - as we are little more = than=20 game pieces- semi-autonomous pawns who have been programmed for the = amusement of=20 some higher intelligence. Nowadays we all could be operating as avatars=20 in a computer program, which is what Hesse's Castalia would = have been,=20 had he lived 50 years into the future.
 
The GBG, although an artform which came before the computer age, = was a=20 spiel so prescient and obviously pointed in that direction, that the = former=20 cult-novel may one day evolve into this computer-based=20 philosophy-religion... who knows... even a monastic = tradition? =20 In short, the basic ideas are the same epistemological and ontological = precepts=20 of all of religion, or for that matter of A.I.:
 
Categorization - collect and order knowledge
Analogy - cross-relate ideas by likeness
Connection - define the "verbs" - the ways to link ideas by=20 function and action
Contemplation -- contemplate functional ideas in a broader=20 context 
Formalism -- establish rules, rituals and guidelines
Iconicity -- compress ideas, use as metaphor and symbol 
Fusion, Syncretism, Objectivation -- reconcile disparate, even = opposing=20 beliefs, find synergy, solve new problems
 
...and last of all,
Rebirth and reincarnation into the world which you, the pawn, = improved if=20 only by your own level of participatory and existential angst.  =
 
Isn't that any (older) divinity's ultimate weakness... not being = able to=20 participate at the lowest level? The Greek gods didn't have that = problem, of=20 course, but then again, few Greeks thought of them as anything more than = beautiful Iconography. Which is the limit of how any human can view = God,=20 some might argue.
 
Hesse is just the starting point for emerging syncretism, and we = can do it=20 under his name because he is long dead, and never was ambitious enough = to=20 portray himself as anyone's guru or messiah. He was one of the first = selfless=20 modern thinkers to open the door of perception beyond an outdated = legacy...=20 beyond which gate "knowledge" seeks to find its own justification, = without the=20 necessity of bodily participation. Computers will be able to do that = soon, and=20 the three letter name of divinity may shorten to two.
 
Jones
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C526DD.4AA9D840-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 12 10:49:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2CIn2KO026559; Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:49:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2CImxwi026524; Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:48:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:48:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=r52tsjsMBn3KAsnjTFYwZ0Xy5RG6wtoVUYJOx7ha/NyuXrQGOk66+rkJLeLL+rVVLdAOHNLdK7HhFleztIPjfz9jLr0uyew7H9KNdmOynJnbhsgDHldz9jcSAdfKwUXFep7hUcRPD0fPdzN8Y71jLPyEup9ITntmAphKOshkPHg= ; Message-ID: <20050312184852.82938.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:48:51 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: [OT] Geeze! To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <2wEK-B.A.XeG.bmzMCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'm driving down Satellite Blvd. this morning a little after 11 and dozens of police speed by. They caught the alleged killer of Judge Barnes 3 miles from my home. Gwinnett police showed great restraint in not blowing the b $t@rd away. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 12 10:56:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2CItpKO028988; Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:55:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2CItlPI028964; Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:55:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:55:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007401c52734$ea89a8c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Names that work Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:54:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0071_01C526F1.DC127C60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C526F1.DC127C60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://pesn.com/2005/03/11/6900068_Griesel/ **Ernest Griesel** -- yes, that is his birth name -- drives a diesel = bus whose diesel engine he has converted to run on grease. ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C526F1.DC127C60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://pesn.com/2005= /03/11/6900068_Griesel/
 
**Ernest Griesel**  -- yes, that is his birth name -- drives a = diesel=20 bus
 whose diesel engine he has converted to run on=20 grease.
------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C526F1.DC127C60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 12 18:35:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2D2Z0IU016559; Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:35:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2D2YvUn016534; Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:34:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:34:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001701c52775$3bb6cda0$a8037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Vortex mystery Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:34:11 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C52742.D95DB8D0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C52742.D95DB8D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0014_01C52742.D95DB8D0" ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C52742.D95DB8D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankBeen following this thread with interest. I remain amazed at the = statue of this group and the insight expressed on such a range of = subjects. I'm waiting on the next step.. that being ..explain the energy unleashed = in a tornado or hurricane. Water drains, hurricanes, tornados, galaxies, black holes, etc. make me = cosider an atom may be vortex shaped. I saw a pic of the collapse of a = tiny bubble in a SL experiment. A vortex was visible extending into = center of the sphere at the moment of collapse..hmm.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C52742.D95DB8D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Been following this thread with interest. I = remain=20 amazed at the statue of this group and the insight expressed on such a = range of=20 subjects.
 
I'm waiting on the next step.. that being = ..explain the=20 energy unleashed in a tornado or hurricane.
 
Water drains, hurricanes, tornados, galaxies, = black=20 holes, etc. make me cosider an atom may be vortex shaped. I saw a pic of = the=20 collapse of a tiny bubble in a SL experiment. A vortex was visible = extending=20 into center of the sphere at the moment of collapse..hmm.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0014_01C52742.D95DB8D0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C52742.D95DB8D0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001201c52775$23f20e50$a8037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C52742.D95DB8D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 12 18:49:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2D2moIU021916; Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:48:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2D2mmOT021893; Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:48:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:48:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002401c52777$2a16b590$a8037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: OT sim-sync Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:48:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C52744.DEFBF200"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C52744.DEFBF200 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0021_01C52744.DEFBF200" ------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C52744.DEFBF200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones, Interesting insight into Hesse's writings and even deeper insight into = his " hippie" ways ( grin). The difficulty with being a half learned man such as Hesse is that being = half learned, his blind side appears more pronounced. Ever searching and = never coming to an understanding of the truth. In discussions, a friend remarked that a lack of self esteem is = profoundly self destructive. Self esteem can include self worth, and = being satisfied with one's self . Lack of self esteem provokes people = like Hesse to write works that are fiction represented as truth. His = works, at best, are a poor analogy to true works of literature beginning = with the Bible. I am uncomfortable with a person that searches for knowledge and wisdom = eludes him. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C52744.DEFBF200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones,
 
Interesting insight into Hesse's writings and = even=20 deeper insight into his " hippie" ways ( grin).
 
The difficulty with being a half learned man = such as=20 Hesse is that being half learned, his blind side appears more = pronounced. Ever=20 searching and never coming to an understanding of the = truth.
 
In discussions, a friend remarked that a lack = of self=20 esteem is profoundly self destructive. Self esteem can include self = worth, and=20 being satisfied with one's self . Lack of self esteem provokes people = like Hesse=20 to write works that are fiction represented as truth. His works, at=20 best, are a poor analogy to true works of literature beginning with = the=20 Bible.
 
I am uncomfortable with a person that searches = for=20 knowledge and wisdom eludes him.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0021_01C52744.DEFBF200-- ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C52744.DEFBF200 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001f01c52777$299354c0$a8037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C52744.DEFBF200-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 12 23:45:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2D7jEDh023488; Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:45:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2D7j2Ki023433; Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:45:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:45:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick highsurf.com@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20050312184852.82938.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050312184852.82938.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 21:44:46 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: [OT] Geeze! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I hope you get on the jury for his murder trial - if it ever gets that far. - R. >I'm driving down Satellite Blvd. this morning a little >after 11 and dozens of police speed by. They caught >the alleged killer of Judge Barnes 3 miles from my >home. Gwinnett police showed great restraint in not >blowing the b $t@rd away. > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 13 07:20:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2DFJmDh007141; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 07:19:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2DFJgoe007080; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 07:19:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 07:19:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Xi7uD1LRy6tdR4+CvXi79IWOMV4padKaAYgU00imMKDVs4AaTOuWrdzalAeYCzqOafylppzTDKwU5P0yMRlf2XsJWbdjKFOBAR5FWsDnbPUcEyZaOohCIZUZNmvClK4XEZf5mGwE693aMu3ZCwmGKONrvNu2cXkVWz6I6yzPwho= ; Message-ID: <20050313151920.21756.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 07:19:20 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Spark Plug Wonder? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: 44-50% improvement in mileage from a plasma spark plug: http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/Firestorm.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 13 09:07:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2DH71Dh024445; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:07:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2DH6wFB024424; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:06:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:06:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42347308.7010009 cox.net> Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:06:16 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spark Plug Wonder? References: <20050313151920.21756.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Interesting. I wonder how that compares to Roy McCallister (Hydrogen Institute of Technology, Phoenix Arizona)'s spark plug. He had a sphere in a cup for the center electrode. Fuel is pumped around the ball while energized, and this creates a plasma in the liquid fuel. Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona Terry Blanton wrote: >44-50% improvement in mileage from a plasma spark >plug: > >http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/Firestorm.html > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 13 09:17:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2DHGhDh027597; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:16:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2DHGeZd027563; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:16:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:16:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OT sim-sync Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:16:50 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <002401c52777$2a16b590$a8037841 xptower> Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi RC, With all due respect, you're sounding like that fellow Horgan we we discussing earlier in the week, who believes that all science has been done and nothing new will be discovered. Perhaps you should try reading some of Hesses' novels; I would suggest Siddartha because it's a popular story and your old pal Jesus C. makes a cameo appearance. But my favorite is a lesser known work entitled "The Journey to the East". You can buy a copy this morning and read it in an afternoon, a small investment which will pay off handsomely. Hesse shows you the nature of the problem, and unlike the religious literature you may be familiar with does _not_ offer easy answers. Rather, he attempts to synthesis the best of the thoughts of all of the major religions, and in the book I mention above attempts to tell you something about the actual practice of seeking for spiritual truth, and how this relates to the arts and sciences. If you take away anything from your involvement with this list, it should be that the real world is far more complex and deeply structured than what we currently understand or will understand in the near future. 2000 year old books are just the beginning of a very long road; one in which the journey is far more important and relevant than what destinations are reached. The easy road is for sleepers and parasites; the pioneers take the difficult path. How else can you expect to find the New World? K. -----Original Message----- From: RC Macaulay [mailto:walhalla cvtv.net] Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 9:49 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT sim-sync Jones, Interesting insight into Hesse's writings and even deeper insight into his " hippie" ways ( grin). The difficulty with being a half learned man such as Hesse is that being half learned, his blind side appears more pronounced. Ever searching and never coming to an understanding of the truth. In discussions, a friend remarked that a lack of self esteem is profoundly self destructive. Self esteem can include self worth, and being satisfied with one's self . Lack of self esteem provokes people like Hesse to write works that are fiction represented as truth. His works, at best, are a poor analogy to true works of literature beginning with the Bible. I am uncomfortable with a person that searches for knowledge and wisdom eludes him. Richard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 13 11:45:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2DJjSDh013913; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:45:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2DJjRZd013901; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:45:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:45:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Vortex mystery Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 06:45:06 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <001701c52775$3bb6cda0$a8037841 xptower> In-Reply-To: <001701c52775$3bb6cda0$a8037841 xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2DJjCDh013750 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:34:11 -0600: Hi Richard, [snip] > I saw a pic of the collapse of a tiny bubble in a SL experiment. A vortex was visible extending into center of the sphere at the moment of collapse..hmm. I think the picture you saw was the one from Stringham/George. However that bubble collapsed *asymmetrically* against a solid surface, not in the centre of a spherical flask. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 13 12:39:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2DKdmDh000793; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:39:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2DKdh7t000768; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:39:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:39:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vortex mystery Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 07:39:35 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2DKddDh000733 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:22:03 -0900: Hi, [snip] Given the complexity of the equations for ASCII representation, I have placed a Mathcad document (24 kB) and a "gif" version thereof (36 kB), for readers without Mathcad, on my web page at http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/vortex.mcd and http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/vortex.gif respectively. Most of the variables at the top of the page are irrelevant (inherited from my standard template). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 13 15:07:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2DN6lDh027789; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:06:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2DN6P2e027653; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:06:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:06:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:07:05 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:39 AM 3/14/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:22:03 >-0900: >Hi, >[snip] >Given the complexity of the equations for ASCII representation, I >have placed a Mathcad document (24 kB) and a "gif" version thereof >(36 kB), for readers without Mathcad, on my web page at >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/vortex.mcd and >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/vortex.gif respectively. > >Most of the variables at the top of the page are irrelevant >(inherited from my standard template). This is great stuff! I hope, for the sake of the archives, one of us takes the time to post this in ascii when all is done, and tabularly descirbe each variable. I suppose I can insure that happens. This could be a useful analysis to refer to for various things. I also hope escribe continues in existance. I see you are opting to analyze the zero viscosity fluid version, which is very handy. So, to obtain the energy or momentum of what went down the drain you need only integrate inside the boundary consisting of the edge of the tank or the surface of the remaining water, whichever is smaller at a given height. To obtain the energy and angular momentum of the water that remains you need only intergate those values outside that surface and inside the tank. You might find the following analysis useful for your next phase. The shape of the final equilibrium surface is: h = (w^2/2g) x R + h0 where h is height, w is angular velocity, g = 9.80665 m/s^2, and R is radius. Using R1 as the radius of the hole, R2 as radius of of tank, we have h = 0 at the radius R1 when equlilbrium is established and no more water can go down the hole. So: 0 = (w^2/2g) x R1 + h0 h0 = 2g/( w^2 x R1) The final height Hf of the water at the edge of the tank is thus: Hf = (w^2/2g) x R2 + 2g/( w^2 x R1) Bravo and keep cooking! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 13 15:15:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2DNFUDh030597; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:15:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2DNFSs0030588; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:15:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:15:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:16:10 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I assumed in the prior analysis that the initial angular velocity is small. If the angular velocity of the initial condition is high then the initial condition integration of angular momentum and energy also has to be outside the boundary established by h = (w^2/2g) x R + h0 It is possible that in the initial condition all the water will be located outside the radius of the hole, and thus no water can go down the hole at all. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 13 18:52:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2E2qaDh003899; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:52:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2E2qSgs003858; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:52:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:52:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4234FC96.7030006 pobox.com> Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 21:53:10 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spark Plug Wonder? References: <20050313151920.21756.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050313151920.21756.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I looked over this page and I had some problems with it. The final product isn't explained in detail so it's impossible to speculate as to how well it might work, but something he says in the course of explaining its development is disturbing. Quote: "During this time, I went through a 55-gallon drum full of grimy used spark plugs. I inspected them all very carefully and found that the older the model of spark plug was, the more the centre electrode of the plug was worn all around the side. It took the shape of a small ball. It was a half a ball—a dome shape, to be exact. "That's when I thought, 'If that's what the spark plug wants to be, then why not start off with that shape and see what it does?' So, I took a brand new plug and filed it down into the shape of a dome and fired it and noticed it worked a little bit better." This particular passage deals with conventional spark plug technology, the only change being to round off the edges of the center electrode of a new plug. It worked "a little bit better". This is _extremely_ hard to believe! So hard to believe, in fact, that it makes one wonder about the rest of what he says, and makes the reluctance of manufacturers to pick up the idea somewhat easier to understand, assuming he tells them the same story. As I understand it a (conventional) spark plug is, essentially, a capacitor with an air (well, air/fuel) gap between the plates (the "electrodes"). When the ignition system "fires" the spark plug, it charges it up until the dielectric (air/fuel mix in the gap) ionizes and the spark plug arcs over. With anything approximating ordinary electrodes this happens in what amounts to a single lightning bolt, and it happens at the point where the charge density on the electrode surface is highest. That's where the sharp edges on a new plug come into play. The charge density on the surface of a charged conductor is inversely related to the radius of curvature of the surface. Hence, charge concentrates at those sharp edges on a new plug, and in fact concentrates so much that the plug will fire at a much lower voltage than would be required in the absence of the sharp edges. That, in fact, is the biggest part of what happens to "old" plugs -- since they tend to fire at the sharpest corners, those corners eventually get rounded off, charge distributes itself evenly over the (now smooth) surface, and the firing voltage must be consequently a great deal higher. With a modern high voltage system that may not matter much but in the old days of a single set of breaker points, a capacitor, and a coil, plugs with rounded off corners had a very hard time firing. So, the notion that he just filed off the sharp edges on a conventional plug and _improved_ its performance is very hard to swallow. It makes the subsequent claims that much harder to believe. Terry Blanton wrote: >44-50% improvement in mileage from a plasma spark >plug: > >http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/Firestorm.html > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 13 18:53:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2E2r1Dh004092; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:53:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2E2qxbg004051; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:52:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:52:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 17:53:41 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Correction follows. Sorry! The shape of the final equilibrium surface is: h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 where h is height, w is angular velocity, g = 9.80665 m/s^2, and R is radius. Using R1 as the radius of the hole, R2 as radius of of tank, we have h = 0 at the radius R1 when equlilbrium is established and no more water can go down the hole. So: 0 = (w^2/2g) x (R1)^2 + h0 h0 = 2g/( w^2 x (R1)^2) The final height Hf of the water at the edge of the tank is thus: Hf = (w^2/2g) x (R2)^2 + 2g/( w^2 x (R1)^2) The above assumes that the initial angular velocity is small. If the angular velocity of the initial condition is high then the initial condition integration of angular momentum and energy also has to be outside the boundary established by h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 It is possible that in the initial condition all the water will be located outside the radius of the hole, and thus no water can go down the hole at all. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 13 19:00:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2E2xqDh007394; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:59:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2E2xm7L007368; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:59:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:59:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002001c52841$dfaf7390$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: OT sim-sync Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:59:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01C5280F.7D20CFD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-98.9 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, J_CHICKENPOX_81,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C5280F.7D20CFD0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001D_01C5280F.7D20CFD0" ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C5280F.7D20CFD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankKeith, On the contrary,I am painfully aware there is a new dawn of science on = the horizon that portends astounding discoveries in all fields of = research. Each discipline is being slingshot launched by another which = in turn forces the dynamic onto other disciplines. The magnitude of = change existing today is near overwhelming to many businesses such as = ours. The VortexL group affords me the opportunity and pleasure to read = about works that are beyond my scope of education and training ,yet = assists me by my studying the views and ideas of a most interesting = diversity of people with experience. The respect that I have for the = people that post in the group including yourself, that offer both = encouragement and suggestions, is gratefully acknowledged. My comments regarding Hesse are my own beliefs, certainly diverse from = yours which is understandable given the scope of our respective = backgrounds. Makes the kettle boil with enthusiasm and interest. Did you = ever read the book of James in the bible and try to understand how he = could contain that much wisdom in so few of words? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C5280F.7D20CFD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Keith,
 
On the contrary,I am painfully aware = there is a new=20 dawn of science on the horizon that portends astounding discoveries in = all=20 fields of research. Each discipline is being slingshot launched by = another which=20 in turn forces the dynamic onto other disciplines. The magnitude of = change=20 existing today is near overwhelming to many businesses such as ours. The = VortexL=20 group affords me the opportunity and pleasure to read about works that = are=20 beyond my scope of education and training ,yet assists me by my studying = the=20 views and ideas of a most interesting diversity of people with = experience. The=20 respect that I have for the people that post in the group including =  yourself, that offer both encouragement and suggestions, is=20 gratefully acknowledged.
 
My comments regarding Hesse are my own = beliefs,=20 certainly diverse from yours which is understandable given the scope of = our=20 respective backgrounds. Makes the kettle boil with enthusiasm and = interest. Did=20 you ever read the book of James in the bible and try to understand how = he could=20 contain that much wisdom in so few of words?
 
Richard
 
------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C5280F.7D20CFD0-- ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C5280F.7D20CFD0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001b01c52841$c7b21810$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C5280F.7D20CFD0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 13 20:14:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2E4EYDh000891; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:14:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2E4EWb0000878; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:14:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:14:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spark Plug Wonder? Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:14:22 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050313151920.21756.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> <4234FC96.7030006@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <4234FC96.7030006 pobox.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2E4ESDh000845 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Sun, 13 Mar 2005 21:53:10 -0500: Hi, [snip] >absence of the sharp edges. That, in fact, is the biggest part of what >happens to "old" plugs -- since they tend to fire at the sharpest >corners, those corners eventually get rounded off, charge distributes >itself evenly over the (now smooth) surface, and the firing voltage must >be consequently a great deal higher. With a modern high voltage system >that may not matter much but in the old days of a single set of breaker >points, a capacitor, and a coil, plugs with rounded off corners had a >very hard time firing. > >So, the notion that he just filed off the sharp edges on a conventional >plug and _improved_ its performance is very hard to swallow. It makes >the subsequent claims that much harder to believe. [snip] You may have "indirectly" hit the nail on the head. :) If a modern high voltage system has no problem with it, then more charge will probably build up before the spark jumps, which may imply a bigger spark. That in turn will probably result in a more sure burn. There is also the matter of the cage that he built around the outside, which you haven't taken into account. (If the fuel air mix isn't perfect, then a small thin spark may occasionally be "igniting" mostly air, and fail altogether for that cycle). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 13 23:26:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2E7QGaL003778; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:26:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2E7QDZ3003752; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:26:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:26:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:26:28 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: end of science? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Richard posted; and Keith Nagel continued; > >With all due respect, you're sounding like that >fellow Horgan we we discussing earlier in the >week, who believes that all science has been >done and nothing new will be discovered. I'm reminded of the question of Chi. IMHO, it is the fifth great force in the universe. We have no understanding of what it is. My hot button that Parksie regularly pushes is Energy Medicine in general and Homeopathy in particular. I believe that the two phenomena are related. Then there is the matter of cold spots. Our local CBS affiliate plays Unexplained Mysteries on Sunday night. A frequent topic of discussion are ghosts. The investigators go into the house with the reported phenomena with a thermal imaging camera. The video shows a zone of low temperature. We are clueless as to the nature of the entity that is producing the phenomena. A similar effect has been associated with the Newman Motor. While wouldn't invest a nickle in Newman that I wasn't prepared to loose, a reputable investigator, Roger Hastings observed the cooling of the room. I could go on, but this in enough. There are plenty of interesting phenomena that we don't understand, and are worth investigating. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 14 05:39:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2EDcxpx009090; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 05:38:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2EDcuxA009062; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 05:38:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 05:38:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=oS8KwHtQ3I6NK6DtYx0G2P7+W3wN0fjfAme5yU3/ytIpi6clYOF1uGlGcGvmKQB3V5nkBVae75lxpfVOVAqXOh8JpsKstzMa+Bow6Lb0exe21+fzSUqt5STIRq5EU9GJ0oolCDtEqo3mfLbwwG7wKmiouchCFAAxgGuXQZ3wExQ= ; Message-ID: <20050314133848.97152.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 05:38:48 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: end of science? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1111393522-1110807528=:96476" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-1111393522-1110807528=:96476 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The same is reported for the M.E.G. thomas malloy wrote:Roger Hastings observed the cooling of the room. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1111393522-1110807528=:96476 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
The same is reported for the M.E.G.

thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com> wrote:
Roger Hastings observed the cooling of the
room.

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1111393522-1110807528=:96476-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 14 06:20:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2EEJlpx024625; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 06:19:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2EEJj5x024613; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 06:19:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 06:19:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42359DAB.6030706 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:20:27 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spark Plug Wonder? References: <20050313151920.21756.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> <4234FC96.7030006@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Sun, 13 Mar 2005 >21:53:10 -0500: >Hi, >[snip] > > >>absence of the sharp edges. That, in fact, is the biggest part of what >>happens to "old" plugs -- since they tend to fire at the sharpest >>corners, those corners eventually get rounded off, charge distributes >>itself evenly over the (now smooth) surface, and the firing voltage must >>be consequently a great deal higher. With a modern high voltage system >>that may not matter much but in the old days of a single set of breaker >>points, a capacitor, and a coil, plugs with rounded off corners had a >>very hard time firing. >> >>So, the notion that he just filed off the sharp edges on a conventional >>plug and _improved_ its performance is very hard to swallow. It makes >>the subsequent claims that much harder to believe. >> >> >[snip] >You may have "indirectly" hit the nail on the head. :) >If a modern high voltage system has no problem with it, then more >charge will probably build up before the spark jumps, which may >imply a bigger spark. That in turn will probably result in a more >sure burn. > Hmmm -- good point! Didn't think of that! The whole (old-fashioned) sparkplug design was done for systems that had to struggle to get past 10,000 volts when the engine was running at speed; with more headroom maybe that same easy-to-fire design just gets in the way of producing a fatter spark. >There is also the matter of the cage that he built >around the outside, which you haven't taken into account. > > Sure; I was just commenting on his first experiments with old-style plugs. >(If the fuel air mix isn't perfect, then a small thin spark may >occasionally be "igniting" mostly air, and fail altogether for >that cycle). > >Regards, > > >Robin van Spaandonk > >All SPAM goes in the trash unread. > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 14 07:20:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2EFJdpx015262; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 07:19:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2EFJaJq015240; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 07:19:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 07:19:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c528a9$091b5f20$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: OFF TOPIC The good die young Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 07:18:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C52865.F9E3F000" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C52865.F9E3F000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why do "the good die young" when there are so many dirty rotten = scoundrels who seem to prosper forever in comfort and wealth? THIS IS = NOT FAIR!" to paraphrase the modern Job's lament... no relation to Steve = Jobs, for sure. ...unfair... or is it? In Jewish theology, the ritual of Kaddish; or in Irish theology, the = ritual of the wake, we find the mourner's public (confused and bemused) = acknowledgement that, even if untimely death does seem unfair, it is THE = way, and probably is expiation at least... in some mysterious and = remediating 'weigh'. As such, we usually just lump too-soon-departures = into that large file of things we cannot understand now. And then try to = drown our sorrow in whatever solace is permissible, before dealing with = the next unknowable... ...Born with a broken heart Seems it was over, before it began Music is tied into creative mentality at such a basic and controversial = level, that it is mind-boggling to even consider one surprising = implication of its influence... that being that music might actually be = able to stimulate important mental concepts that are otherwise = inaccessible... to loosen a particular mindset, for instance... for = whatever reason, there seems to be an arms-length mutual parasitism of = shared-gain going-on between art and the art-appreciator.=20 Few in science seem to believe that this could be the case, and few = express (publicly at least) much interest in popular music, but they = sometimes "sense" that its importance is deeper than their rationality = will begrudge. Scientists may pay homage to classical art - one = researcher, whose name escapes me, did his best work while listening to = Carmina Burana. That would seem a bit tiresome to me, but = to-each-his-own. Maybe a more scientific analysis of this subject of = art-influence will someday be taken-on, but there seems to be so little = in the way of a common denominator between the young demisees, so to = speak - whether it be Jesus, Janis, JFK, Jimi, Jim (Morrison), etc. = that a single rationale for prematurity is hard to imagine. In most = cases, the end-result is a lingering cult-appeal, or even martyrdom, = even when irrational excess is the proximate cause. Before the more modern tragedies (of the artists who die young) there = were the romantics, like Byron, Keats, and Shelley, and going back a = long way beyond them, the heroes of Homer, Aeschylus, Sophocles (those = "whom the god's love die young"). Romantics, especially creative = geniuses, combine in an odd-couple pairing with "brave heroes" none of = whom are expected to live much beyond their prime age of ~30 something. = Especially if they are involved in both extreme creativity and "reckless = behavior"... tempting fate with personal overindulgence, war, or affront = to authority.=20 The broader inference of the die-young phenomenon being that if age is = renewed-opportunity, it is also continuing-obligation. Consequently, one = might be best advised to live fast, die young and leave a beautiful = legacy... to the extent that one's "job is done" by age `30, why prolong = the agony of a downhill slide into feebleness? Die with your boots-on, = as the oaters like to say. Being no shrinking ultraviolet in adding confusion to disarray, here is = a new name and candidate for inspirational musical talent who died = way-too-young... ta da... perhaps the best female voice of modern times, = the late Eva Cassidy. Eva is my inspiration du jour, but "Le po=E8te = meurt de l'inspiration comme le vieillard de la vieillesse," and being = no poet, the aging-cure will have to wait for a next sweet = chanteuse...or was that a suite chantrelle? When the French have two = words for anything, that is a sign of esteem. If there has ever been a reason to curse the affliction known as = melanoma, Eva is that reason. According to a BBC jury, Eva was possessed = of one of the best singing voices of all time, even though many had = never heard of her and she was not English. IMHO they should have left = out the "one of". Can we combine her untimely demise with a "hidden = message" about resource allocation? Would the half-trillion we are = unleashing in the middle East to buy peace (i.e. move WMD into hiding = somewhere else while reducing a sovereign nation to shambles), have led = to a cure for melanoma and other cancers? Too late for Eva, sadly. But maybe this belated tribute will open up her = art to a slightly wider audience. A musical poll put her rendition of = "Over the Rainbow" near the top of the list of the most memorable songs = ever performed. Eva Cassidy=92s version received more votes than did = Judy Garland=92s. Living near a local landmark known as the rainbow = tunnel, and often infatuated with the Oz story for reasons going beyond = the gold-standard, latching onto Eva's songs was kind of a fortuitous = accident, never having heard her sad story in advance. Google says that = during her short and mostly un-noticed lifetime she hardly ever = performed outside her home area of Maryland/DC. Yet Eva is/was not like = any other singer, in inspiration-potential, at lest to my ear. Not a = songwriter, but an interpreter extraordinaire of other people=92s songs, = the picture that emerges is also that of an insecure and shy woman - = there is more than a hint of internal conflict, reminiscent of another = extraordinary bitter-sweet voice of inspiration, Karen Carpenter.=20 Some other premature deaths: Alexander the Great age 33 Rudolph Valantino,=20 Marilyn Monroe,=20 James Dean,=20 A lesser artist may mislead youth : "Dawg... They say the good die young, That's why I think that you = should have fun (when your young)"=20 when the reality is that most of the artists who die young were so = terribly conflicted with the immensity of their talent, that fun was = hardly a genuine option.=20 The least we can do, in tribute to them all, is to try to regain our = lost national sense of true morality and "redeem" some of our wasted = warbucks for the benefit of longer-life, rather than promoting senseless = suffering. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C52865.F9E3F000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Why do "the good die young" when there are so many = dirty rotten=20 scoundrels who seem to prosper forever in comfort and = wealth?  THIS IS=20 NOT FAIR!" to paraphrase the modern Job's lament... no relation to Steve = Jobs,=20 for sure.
 
...unfair... or is it?
 
In Jewish theology, the ritual of Kaddish; or in Irish theology, = the ritual=20 of the wake, we find the mourner's public (confused and bemused)=20 acknowledgement that, even if untimely death does seem unfair, it is THE = way,=20 and probably is expiation at least... in some mysterious and remediating = 'weigh'. As such, we usually just lump too-soon-departures into = that large=20 file of things we cannot understand now. And then try to drown our = sorrow in=20 whatever solace is permissible, before dealing with the next = unknowable...
 
...Born with a broken heart
Seems it was over, before it = began
 
Music is tied into creative mentality at such a basic and = controversial=20 level, that it is mind-boggling to even consider one surprising = implication of=20 its influence... that being that music might actually be able to = stimulate=20 important mental concepts that are otherwise inaccessible... to loosen a = particular mindset, for instance... for whatever reason, there seems to = be an=20 arms-length mutual parasitism of shared-gain going-on between art and = the=20 art-appreciator.
 
Few in science seem to believe that this could be the = case, and=20 few express (publicly at least) much interest in popular music, but = they=20 sometimes "sense" that its importance is deeper than their rationality = will=20 begrudge. Scientists may pay homage to classical art - one researcher, = whose=20 name escapes me, did his best work while listening to Carmina Burana. = That would=20 seem a bit tiresome to me, but to-each-his-own. Maybe a more scientific = analysis=20 of this subject of art-influence will someday be taken-on, but there = seems to be=20 so little in the way of a common denominator between the young demisees, = so to=20 speak - whether it be Jesus, Janis, JFK, Jimi,  Jim = (Morrison), etc.=20 that a single rationale for prematurity is hard to imagine. In = most=20 cases, the end-result is a lingering cult-appeal, or even martyrdom, = even when=20 irrational excess is the proximate cause.
 
Before the more modern tragedies (of the artists who die young) = there were=20 the romantics, like Byron, Keats, and Shelley, and going back a long way = beyond=20 them, the heroes of Homer, Aeschylus, Sophocles (those "whom the god's = love die=20 young"). Romantics, especially creative geniuses, combine in an = odd-couple=20 pairing with "brave heroes" none of whom are expected to live = much=20 beyond their prime age of ~30 something. Especially if they = are=20 involved in both extreme creativity and "reckless behavior"... tempting = fate=20 with personal overindulgence, war, or affront to authority. 
 
The broader inference of the die-young phenomenon being = that if=20 age is renewed-opportunity, it is also continuing-obligation. = Consequently, one=20 might be best advised to live fast, die young and leave a beautiful = legacy... to=20 the extent that one's "job is done" by age `30, why prolong the agony of = a=20 downhill slide into feebleness? Die with your boots-on, as the oaters = like to=20 say.
 
Being no shrinking ultraviolet in adding confusion to = disarray, here=20 is a new name and candidate for inspirational musical talent = who died=20 way-too-young... ta da... perhaps the best female voice of modern times, = the=20 late Eva Cassidy. Eva is my inspiration du jour, but "Le po=E8te meurt = de=20 l'inspiration comme le vieillard de la vieillesse," and being no poet, = the=20 aging-cure will have to wait for a next sweet chanteuse...or was that a = suite=20 chantrelle? When the French have two words for anything, that is a sign = of=20 esteem.
 
If there has ever been a reason to curse the affliction known as = melanoma,=20 Eva is that reason. According to a BBC jury, Eva was possessed of one of = the=20 best singing voices of all time, even though many had never heard of her = and she=20 was not English. IMHO they should have left out the "one of". Can we = combine her=20 untimely demise with a "hidden message" about resource allocation? Would = the=20 half-trillion we are unleashing in the middle East to buy peace (i.e. = move WMD=20 into hiding somewhere else while reducing a sovereign nation to = shambles), have=20 led to a cure for melanoma and other cancers?
 
Too late for Eva, sadly. But maybe this belated tribute will open = up her=20 art to a slightly wider audience. A musical poll put her rendition of = "Over the=20 Rainbow" near the top of the list of the most memorable songs ever = performed.=20 Eva Cassidy=92s version received more votes than did Judy=20 Garland=92s. Living near a local landmark known as the rainbow = tunnel,=20 and often infatuated with the Oz story for reasons going = beyond the=20 gold-standard, latching onto Eva's songs was kind of a = fortuitous=20 accident, never having heard her sad story in advance. Google says = that=20 during her short and mostly un-noticed lifetime she hardly = ever=20 performed outside her home area of Maryland/DC. Yet Eva is/was not like = any=20 other singer, in inspiration-potential, at lest to my ear. Not a = songwriter, but=20 an interpreter extraordinaire of other people=92s songs, the picture = that emerges=20 is also that of an insecure and shy woman - there is more than a = hint of=20 internal conflict, reminiscent of another extraordinary bitter-sweet = voice of=20 inspiration, Karen Carpenter.
 
Some other premature deaths:
Alexander the Great age 33
Rudolph Valantino,
Marilyn Monroe,
James Dean,
 
A lesser artist may mislead youth :
 "Dawg... They say the good die young, That's why I think that = you=20 should have fun (when your young)"
when the reality is that most of the artists who die young were so = terribly=20 conflicted with the immensity of their talent, that fun was hardly a = genuine=20 option.
 
The least we can do, in tribute to them all, is to try to = regain=20 our lost national sense of true morality and "redeem" some of our = wasted=20 warbucks for the benefit of longer-life, rather than promoting senseless = suffering.
 
Jones
 
 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C52865.F9E3F000-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 14 08:21:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2EGLCpx019414; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:21:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2EGL7a0019347; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:21:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:21:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001601c528b1$cf7ceb40$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC The good die young Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:20:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C5287F.6DB67980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C5287F.6DB67980 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0013_01C5287F.6DB80020" ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C5287F.6DB80020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones, you are a treat to read. Job 38:7 .. "while the morning stars sang together"..=20 Its true that music is both inspirational and motivating. Music has a cadence and mathematic harmony ( a beat) understood by both = rich and poor. The question of why an " untimely death" cannot be fathomed is left for = poets to surmise. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C5287F.6DB80020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones, you are a treat to read.
 
Job 38:7  .. "while the morning stars = sang=20 together"..
 
 Its true that music is both = inspirational and=20 motivating.
 
Music has a cadence and mathematic harmony ( a = beat)=20 understood by both rich and poor.
The question of why an " untimely death" = cannot be=20 fathomed is left for poets to surmise.
 
Richard
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C5287F.6DB80020-- ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C5287F.6DB67980 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001101c528b1$b8463b20$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C5287F.6DB67980-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 14 09:22:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2EHMFpx017614; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:22:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2EHMD5A017600; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:22:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:22:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Q9OWGrMuKGJsyzJe9wJTBuXf9PMSk+/BD82Cmhd67mbwdDIyxt0rjuNpNEPXHDzu; Message-ID: <410-220053114162234660 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spark Plug Wonder? Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:22:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94015e36a076d66135baf9c795ed5601f51350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.81 Resent-Message-ID: <9yKEmD.A.8SE.FhcNCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Google hits on Sex 311,000,000 Hits on Food 225,000,000 , Cars or Engines 126,000,000 . Food and sex in a car, What more do you need? :-) http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/Firestorm.html http://www.centuryperformance.com/spark.asp " But, there are also specially designed spark plugs that are supposed to increase the spark kernel size. You see, the larger the spark kernel that is generated by the spark jumping the electrode gap, the more complete burn, the better power and efficiency and the smoother the car will run for longer periods of time. These specially designed plugs will have multiple angles that allow the spark to find the easiest path as well as getting the spark kernel out from under the ground electrode which can quench the kernel size limiting it's size and expansive growth." " Of these plugs, there are those that work, those that are hype, and those that are a great idea but they are manufactured by companies whose only purpose is profit instead of quality. Use common sense and don't believe all the hype that a marketing company bombards you with." http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/TechServ/TechInfo/ISTech.html Great Photos. http://www.daytona-twintec.com/tech_ignition.html Frederick Break Down Most engines require nearly 12,000 volts to fire the spark gap. When this voltage level is reached, a very high current flows for several hundred nanoseconds, an almost inconceivably short period of time, as energy stored in the capacitance of the coil, secondary wiring, and spark plug is rapidly discharged. Because the break down ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Google hits on Sex 311,000,000    Hits on Food 225,000,000 , Cars or Engines 126,000,000 . 
 
Food and sex in a car, What more do you need?  :-)
 
 

http://www.centuryperformance.com/spark.asp

   " But, there are also specially designed spark plugs that are supposed to increase the spark kernel size. You see, the larger the spark kernel that is generated by the spark jumping the electrode gap, the more complete burn, the better power and efficiency and the smoother the car will run for longer periods of time. These specially designed plugs will have multiple angles that allow the spark to find the easiest path as well as getting the spark kernel out from under the ground electrode which can quench the kernel size limiting it's size and expansive growth."   " Of these plugs, there are those that work, those that are hype, and those that are a great idea but they are manufactured by companies whose only purpose is profit instead of quality. Use common sense and don't believe all the hype that a marketing company bombards you with."

http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/TechServ/TechInfo/ISTech.html

Great Photos.

http://www.daytona-twintec.com/tech_ignition.html

Frederick

 

Break Down

Most engines require nearly 12,000 volts to fire the spark gap. When this voltage level is reached, a very high current flows for several hundred nanoseconds, an almost inconceivably  short period of time, as energy stored in the capacitance of the coil, secondary wiring, and spark plug is rapidly discharged. Because the break down

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 14 17:20:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2F1JwB3009614; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:19:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2F1JtHo009589; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:19:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:19:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=sJR4+anAx6rU0Qs3PeuiTEH0uO7+ALLzEWOhc1EQWp5m+Mvp+/BIhYZQX7HZhS2iqWDflbFpU5xnfrlTooiMDr8prdmdpZFzAKA0zFOBq4af/CXmtq4DmxrH3RC9I8dR6JeQ8rmIlsJIu+FTwfNLj3g3zjyxdAXyF1ulH1KT/1Q= ; Message-ID: <20050315011948.53466.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:19:48 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Spark Plug Wonder? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Beer, 27,400,000 hits. When I went to buy new spark plugs for the Echo, the parts salesman's face turned white and he said, "Sir, did you know these plugs were $12 each?" So, what's so great about iridium? The electrode is much thinner -- hardly a mm in dia. > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Google hits on Sex 311,000,000 Hits on Food > 225,000,000 , Cars or Engines 126,000,000 . > > Food and sex in a car, What more do you need? :-) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 14 22:49:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2F6moq5026888; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:48:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2F6mmIP026871; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:48:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:48:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20050311191046.78768.qmail web54505.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050311191046.78768.qmail web54505.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:49:09 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: RE: OT: The will of God Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Not to interrupt, >thomas malloy wrote: > >> >> Steven Johnson posted; >> > >> > >> >So, you know for an absolute fact that Allah isn't >> God? >> > > Different name; yod hay vav hay as opposed to Allah, and Merlyn added; >Same God, different interpretation. >The Jewish/christian god has NO name, this is why >He/She is referred to as God. Allah is arabic for god, so the translation is the same. > >So, you know for an absolute fact that Allah isn't God? My reply In other words, if you believe in Allah you must prefer dictatorships over democracies? Allah = dictatorships? Islam means submission, does that answer your question? That's why Allah isn't god? My reply He, the G-d of Israel, has a name, it is spelled yod, hey vav hey, it means I am what I am. There is no way that the two entities are the same, there is only room in the universe for one all powerful king. Or as a pastor I listen to puts it so eloquently, "we can't both of us be right." A comparison of the two systems that resulted from them makes that obvious. > >Brief (and simplified) History >Judaism was first. >Some jews believed that the messiah came and became >Christians, other jews continued to wait for his >arrival. >Some Jews followed a new prophet and became Muslims, >others retained their original belief structure. My reply Very few Jews converted to Islam. By in large the converts were Arabs and other people who were in the way of Islam's conquest. >As for prophecy, that's all in the interpretation, >which never seems to happen until after the event has >occured. If you want to convince me, you are going to >have to find a very specific prophecy, something that >says "on this day this will happen to these people" >and you are going to have to find it before that date >and have it witnessed in some fashion. My reply We have predicted the return of the Jews, the conquest of the land of Israel, and the rebuilding of the Temple, which is happening now. As for dates, forget it. Steven Johnson also responded that Carl Sagan never accepted Christianity. He seems to know more about it than I do. This was an interesting discussion. The bottom line is that a group of religious Jews and Christians are continuing their efforts to rebuild the Temple. In what is, IMHO, the most under reported story of 2004, the Sanhedrin, the religious Jewish equivalent of a court, has been reconvened after 1900 and some years. One of my rabbi's talks about this issue can be purchased at www.hatikva.org . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 14 23:11:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2F7B5q5004649; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:11:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2F7B4C5004638; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:11:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:11:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20050315011948.53466.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050315011948.53466.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:50:49 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Spark Plug Wonder? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Beer, 27,400,000 hits. > >> Frederick Sparber wrote: >> >> Google hits on Sex 311,000,000 Hits on Food >> 225,000,000 , Cars or Engines 126,000,000 . >> > > Food and sex in a car, What more do you need? :-) > Liquor, food, cars and sex, that's must be 75% of the economy From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 14 23:38:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2F7cUq5014396; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:38:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2F7cRZc014378; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:38:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:38:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Baronvolsung aol.com Message-ID: <159.4ceab3e9.2f67eaea aol.com> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 02:38:18 EST Subject: Re: Unified Theory To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: ThomasClark123 aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_159.4ceab3e9.2f67eaea_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10578 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_159.4ceab3e9.2f67eaea_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/27/05 6:45:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, Baronvolsung aol.com writes: > Scalar Waves by Konstantine Meyl, Pg. 530 to 566., 2003 Indel: > > "Demokrit (460-370 BC) equated the vortex concept with "Law of nature "= the > first attempt to formulate a unified physics. > > Comparison of Faraday's Universal Theory of Objectivity to the special case > of Maxwell's Theory and Relativity In continuation of the above comments on Faraday's Universal Theory of Objectivity as presented by Konstantine Meyl in his Scalar Waves book, Pg. 566: " Maxwell's field equations can be derived from the Faraday transformation equations of the electric E = v X B unipolar conduction and the magnetic field H =-v X D equation of convection). " "Pg 565, Konstantine Meyl Scalar Waves: The two equations of transformation and also the form that derived field equations show the two sides of the medal, by mutually describing the relation between the electric and magnetic field strength (between E and H). We get on the track of the meaning of the medal itself by inserting the dually formulated equations into each other. If the calculated H-field from one equation is inserted into the other equation then as a result a determining equation for the E field remains. The same vice versa also functions to determine the H field. .... Not in a single textbook a mathematical linking of the Poisson equation with the wave equation can be found, as we here succeed in for the first time. .. As a consequence of the Maxwell equations in general and specifically the eddy currents not being able to form structures, every attempt has to fail, which wants to derive the Schrodinger equation from the Maxwell equations. ..." " "Pg 555, Konstantine Meyl Scalar Waves: Such a difference for instance is, that it is common practice to neglect the coupling between the fields at low frequencies. While at high frequencies in the range of the electromagnetic field the E and the H field are mutually dependent, at lower frequency and smaller field change the process of induction drops correspondingly according to Maxwell, so that a neglect seems to be allowed. Now electric and magnetic field can be measured independently of each other. Usually is proceeded as if the other field is not present at all. This is not correct. A look at the Faraday-law immediately shows that even down to frequency zero always both fields are present. The field pointers however stand perpendicular to each other so that the magnetic field pointer wraps around the pointer of the electric field in the form of a vortex ring in the case that the electric field strength is being measured and vice versa. " Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html, Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb.com\personal New Age Production's Inc., www.rhfweb.com\newage Star Haven Community Services, at www.rhfweb.com\sh. Radiation Health Foundation Trust at www.rhfweb.com Making a difference one person at a time Get informed. Inform others. --part1_159.4ceab3e9.2f67eaea_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 2/27/05 6:45:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, Baronvolsun= g aol.com writes:=20


Scalar Waves by Konstantine= Meyl, Pg. 530 to 566., 2003 Indel:=20

"Demokrit (460-370 BC) equated the vortex concept with "Law of nature= "=3D the first attempt to formulate a unified physics.=20

Comparison of Faraday's Universal Theory of Objectivity to the special c= ase of Maxwell's Theory and Relativity:



In continuation of the above comments on Faraday's Universal Theory of O= bjectivity as presented by Konstantine Meyl in his Scalar Waves book, Pg. 56= 6:=20

"=20
Maxwell's field equations can be derived from the Faraday transformation= equations of the electric E =3D v X B unipolar conduction and the magnetic=20= field H =3D-v X D equation of convection).=20
"=20
"Pg 565, Konstantine Meyl Scalar Waves:=20

The two equations of transformation and also the form that derived field= equations show the two sides of the medal, by mutually describing the relat= ion between the electric and magnetic field strength (between E and H). &nbs= p;We get on the track of the meaning of the medal itself by inserting the du= ally formulated equations into each other.  If the calculated H-field f= rom one equation is inserted into the other equation then as a result a dete= rmining equation for the E field remains.  The same vice versa also fun= ctions to determine the H field. ....=20

Not in a single textbook a mathematical linking of the Poisson equation=20= with the wave equation can be found, as we here succeed in for the first tim= e. ..=20

As a consequence of the Maxwell equations in general and specifically th= e eddy currents not being able to form structures, every attempt has to fail= , which wants to derive the Schrodinger equation from the Maxwell equations.= ..."=20
"=20
"Pg 555, Konstantine Meyl Scalar Waves:=20

Such a difference for instance is, that it is common practice to neglect= the coupling between the fields at low frequencies.  While at high fre= quencies in the range of the electromagnetic field the E and the H field are= mutually dependent, at lower frequency and smaller field change the process= of induction drops correspondingly according to Maxwell, so that a neglect=20= seems to be allowed.  Now electric and magnetic field can be measured i= ndependently of each other.  Usually is proceeded as if the other field= is not present at all.=20

This is not correct.  A look at the Faraday-law immediately shows t= hat even down to frequency zero always both fields are present.  The fi= eld pointers however stand perpendicular to each other so that the magnetic=20= field pointer wraps around the pointer of the electric field in the form of=20= a vortex ring in the case that the electric field strength is being measured= and vice versa. "=20


Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.co= m\baron, Email: www.rhf= web.com\emailform.html=20
President Thomas D. Clark, Email: www.rhfweb.com\emailform.html,=20
Personal Web Page: www.rhfweb= .com\personal=20
New Age Production's Inc., www.= rhfweb.com\newage=20
Star Haven Community Services, at w= ww.rhfweb.com\sh.=20
Radiation Health Foundation Trust at = www.rhfweb.com=20

Making a difference one person at a time=20
Get informed. Inform others.=20

--part1_159.4ceab3e9.2f67eaea_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 15 04:39:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2FCdCq5025438; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 04:39:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2FCblYS024845; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 04:37:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 04:37:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=JODGR6n8qrzfMACMAuKF3dTyWozvSg48TG/EkyMjDGzt7IACxgn44UL70q/c0N6f; Message-ID: <410-22005321511383100 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: ZPE Jiggle or Cryogenic Neutrino Absorption? Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 05:38:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402e8335c3162982103ee4e805af07920f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.229 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones. Is it possible that at BEC temperatures the nucleons of an atom exhibit a large neutrino absorption cross-section? Thus upon absorption the atoms/molecules "recoil" with the energy (KeV to MeV) carried as momentum by the neutrinos and absorb the neutrino's mass energy? Hence there will be an adiabatic mass increase of the atoms/molecules that can be released by stimulation at higher temperatures as thermal energy when the stored mass is released. Might this also alter the "half-life clocks" of radioisotopes, and possibly be a mechanism in "Cold Fusion" and other O/U effects? Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Jones.
 
Is it possible that at BEC temperatures the nucleons of an atom exhibit
a large neutrino absorption cross-section?
 
Thus upon absorption the atoms/molecules "recoil" with the energy (KeV to MeV)
carried as momentum by the neutrinos and absorb the neutrino's mass energy?
 
Hence there will be an adiabatic mass increase of the atoms/molecules that
can be released by stimulation at higher temperatures as thermal energy
when the stored mass is released.
 
Might this also alter the "half-life clocks" of radioisotopes, and possibly
be a mechanism in "Cold Fusion" and other O/U effects?
 
Frederick
 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 15 07:38:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2FFcVq5013066; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:38:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2FFcSIx013025; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:38:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:38:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006401c52974$d69d37e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex-l" Cc: References: <410-22005321511383100 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: ZPE Jiggle or Cryogenic Neutrino Absorption? Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:36:56 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred, > Is it possible that at BEC temperatures the nucleons of an atom exhibit a large neutrino absorption cross-section? You are suggesting that the BEC temperature of some isotopic nucleons might differ and be much higher - and/or be semi-independent of the whole atom, right? ... and therefore since the rest mass energy of the neutrino, whatever it might be (a few tenths of an eV perhaps) has an associated wavelength in the terahertz spectrum, then.... should those Condensed nucleons, which have become resonant at that precise wavelength, come in contact with the very large neutrino flux, the stage is set. That is, some of that flux is thermalized at the temperature of the cell itself, so that the Pd cathode which is a nuclear-BEC becomes resonant with the thermalized neutrino flux, despite the kinetic "temperature" of the electrons being much higher. I hope that I am not putting words in your mouth? Consequently, in a nucleus like Pd-106 or 108 (the most abundant isotopes) a mechanism for "Cold Fusion" effects might be dependent on a nucleonic BEC forming at relatively high temperature, several hundred degree C, but only under the high "effective pressure" of a fully loaded matrix. Both Pd and palladium hydrides are superconductive at low temperature. Laufer's "Theory of superconductivity in palladium-noble-metal hydrides" actually preceded P&F by three years. Also it should be noted that *high internal effective pressure* has the same entropy reducing properties as cold temperature. With Pd the loading ratio must get to near 1:1 before this becomes a factor, such that internal pressure substitutes for low temperature. Even at high temperature, this full loading will give entropy properties similar to a few degree K of effective low temperature, for the nucleus especially. When this parameter is reached, then the Pd nucleus can absorb extra mass from the very high neutrino flux at a much higher cross section than normal. This might have the secondary effect of extending the radius for the nuclear strong force, or many other strange phenomena (excess heat) associated with some forms of CF, especially those where less Helium is seen. Ways to test this: Compare two LENR cells, one of which has a lesser concentration of Pd-105 in the cathode composition, which is the isotope which could strongly interfere with BEC formation. This would be very expensive, probably, unless some of this kind of material can be "borrowed" from a national lab. or Place one active CF cell in the direct geometric line with the MINOS neutrino beam being sent from Fermi Lab to a site in Minnesota, and then compare that with the same type cell placed elsewhere. It recommended that, given the weather, that the experimenter wait till spring, unless he likes ice fishing. http://www.azom.com/news.asp?newsID=2678 Which isn't a bad idea, since many "Grumpy Old Men" (ala Walter Matthau and Jack Lemmon) may be involved in fishing as a recreational pastime, while they await results from the ongoing experiment. Hey, the first Grumpy-Old-Man to score with the neutrino-enhanced work, might get the bonus prize of scoring with Ann-Margaret (assuming he is still interested in that kind of score, and Matthau doesn't destroy his fishing hut out of spite). Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 15 07:57:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2FFulq5027002; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:56:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2FFuiAd026978; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:56:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:56:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type; b=K2Q0ExGUORvxaA2KFVxNOPVzseuNTwVYK7kBX0fGM112Eke+UFWcifhL8DjUqMZj; Message-ID: <410-2200532151457560 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: ZPE Jiggle or Cryogenic Neutrino Absorption? Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:57:05 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94082c00a7ab1706d2cbe3ddd314276fe97350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.87.220 Resent-Message-ID: <6cJe6.A.alG.8WwNCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm thinking that perhaps Liquid H2 (~21 K) or Solid H2 (~13 K) cooled with He4 and a He4 cover gas that can be pressurized might make an interesting experiment. The numbers I came up with for the momentum of a 1.0 MeV neutrino colliding with an H2 molecule suggest a recoil momentum of 1.0 eV or 11,600 K. This might be a way to pin down neutrino mass and oscillation? Frederick Jones Beene wrote: > > > Fred, > > > Is it possible that at BEC temperatures the nucleons of an > atom exhibit a large neutrino absorption cross-section? > > You are suggesting that the BEC temperature of some isotopic > nucleons might differ and be much higher - and/or be > semi-independent of the whole atom, right? ... and therefore > since the rest mass energy of the neutrino, whatever it > might be (a few tenths of an eV perhaps) has an associated > wavelength in the terahertz spectrum, then.... should those > Condensed nucleons, which have become resonant at that > precise wavelength, come in contact with the very large > neutrino flux, the stage is set. That is, some of that flux > is thermalized at the temperature of the cell itself, so > that the Pd cathode which is a nuclear-BEC becomes resonant > with the thermalized neutrino flux, despite the kinetic > "temperature" of the electrons being much higher. > > I hope that I am not putting words in your mouth? > > Consequently, in a nucleus like Pd-106 or 108 (the most > abundant isotopes) a mechanism for "Cold Fusion" effects > might be dependent on a nucleonic BEC forming at relatively > high temperature, several hundred degree C, but only under > the high "effective pressure" of a fully loaded matrix. > > Both Pd and palladium hydrides are superconductive at low > temperature. Laufer's "Theory of superconductivity in > palladium-noble-metal hydrides" actually preceded P&F by > three years. Also it should be noted that *high internal > effective pressure* has the same entropy reducing properties > as cold temperature. With Pd the loading ratio must get to > near 1:1 before this becomes a factor, such that internal > pressure substitutes for low temperature. Even at high > temperature, this full loading will give entropy properties > similar to a few degree K of effective low temperature, for > the nucleus especially. > > When this parameter is reached, then the Pd nucleus can > absorb extra mass from the very high neutrino flux at a much > higher cross section than normal. This might have the > secondary effect of extending the radius for the nuclear > strong force, or many other strange phenomena (excess heat) > associated with some forms of CF, especially those where > less Helium is seen. > > Ways to test this: > > Compare two LENR cells, one of which has a lesser > concentration of Pd-105 in the cathode composition, which is > the isotope which could strongly interfere with BEC > formation. This would be very expensive, probably, unless > some of this kind of material can be "borrowed" from a > national lab. > > or > > Place one active CF cell in the direct geometric line with > the MINOS neutrino beam being sent from Fermi Lab to a site > in Minnesota, and then compare that with the same type cell > placed elsewhere. It recommended that, given the weather, > that the experimenter wait till spring, unless he likes ice > fishing. > http://www.azom.com/news.asp?newsID=2678 > > Which isn't a bad idea, since many "Grumpy Old Men" (ala > Walter Matthau and Jack Lemmon) may be involved in fishing > as a recreational pastime, while they await results from the > ongoing experiment. Hey, the first Grumpy-Old-Man to score > with the neutrino-enhanced work, might get the bonus prize > of scoring with Ann-Margaret (assuming he is still > interested in that kind of score, and Matthau doesn't > destroy his fishing hut out of spite). > > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 15 09:03:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2FH2rPc030174; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:02:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2FH2pIm030147; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:02:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:02:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=bvEYw8OTjvjeKiI6IS6pIvY0WWokO6/tHPQCFYPMJSb3DGniKxym9mk61EAfe1Yy7Q2sj9HNOlaalGI0v7rEKJZN2FGl5UCA4TM115erEoufHTncn3N5tD4BPl5rYnXBWCbduETd1/95JdFnFfnJTmCQngNaWYzw9SJh1ZjAsos= ; Message-ID: <20050315170242.48734.qmail web41527.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:02:42 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Mimiced Polyphase Rotation of Magnetic Feilds To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: teslafy yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Some distinctions between single phase and polyphase; "If the load on each phase of a polyphase source is identical, the instantaneous power output of the alternator is constant." HW Jackson As we can imagine then for a single phase application we arrive at the situation where the instantaneous power out from a single phase is NOT constant, and actually crosses a zero input at twice the frequency. Therefore any magnetic fields in expression appear to expand and collapse in space through the polarity change, and the magnetic field is not constantly present in time. To create the effect of a "rotating magnetic field" as is present in polyphase motors the magnetic field must be constantly present in time,also appearing to rotate in space which is satisfied by the proper placement of off phased coils. A single phased source can be given different reactive loads to mimic this requirement, that a magnetic field be continually present in time, and also appear in a different location corresponding to the rotation. A mental model can be made for the requirements using 4 large air core induction coils, where we will assume these coils operate in pairs to mimic a polyphasing at 90 degrees. The large induction coils I have experimented with can be used for an example, as they are 20,000 winds and have been used in experimental air core magnet motors, rotating a 50 lb magnet structure 400 rpm. In this analogy a real model is necessary so that a known Q factor can be cited for the operating coils, so that a efficiency comparisons between a "mimiced" 2 phase system, and a hypothetical actual 2 phase system can be compared. In this situation then, the coils have a operating Q factor of 15: which means that when series resonated at 60 hz, there will be a 15 fold internal rise of voltage with respect to the input, so as to enable 15 times more current then its measured reactive current: to conduct through the coil to produce the magnetic field which for series resonance is almost perfectly phased at near zero degrees with respect to the source voltage. This begins quadrant ones magnetic field in rotation. When phase 1's magnetic field has collapsed to zero, phase two's magnetic field is at its fullest expression in time, and in this case an identical high induction coil can be used, where if the inductance is large, so that X(L)>> R, (15 for this example), this makes the phase angle of the the actual amperage vs voltage source near 90 degrees, thus also a corresponding magnetic field from the reactive coil appears timing wise in quadrant 2. However that current, as the reactive current will have 15 times less current, from the same voltage source powering both branches; thus 15 times less magnetic field then existed at the start in quadrant one, thus to produce a balanced magnetic field in rotation, in order to increase the AC current in phase two a 15 fold step up transformer would be needed, thus also ordinarily implying that the power requirements for that phase: for that phase to mimic the needed polyphase magnetic field rotation, would actually exceed what the phase would draw in quadrant 1, as the phase that was resonated. The efficiency comparisons are easily shown by the fact that the required voltage rise to establish a sufficient magnetic field are obtained for free in quadrant one, because of the series resonant rise of voltage, but in quadrant two it is paid for by an increased amperage consumption by the source to obtain the same voltage rise as what the q factor of the coil will dictate. If in fact we substituted a bonafide 90 degree off phased emf for the source of quadrant two's magnetic field, then it also could be series resonated and obtain the same efficiency found in quadrant one. Thus on first glance the mimiced polyphase system should be at least Q/2 less efficient then the actual polyphased system, for the given air core analogy. One may protest that since quadrant two consists of a transformer driving a large inductive load, that we could improve the efficiency of that branch by applying a power factor correction on the primary. But the doing of this should destroy the effect we are trying to similate, which is a rotating magnetic field. Applying that power factor correction to quandrant two should actually also change its phasing difference from the source voltage, so that making a power factor correction also reduces the original 90 degree phase angle difference, thus increasing the efficiency reduces the phase angle for the mimiced polyphase branch, which reduces the effect of a rotating magnetic field. HDN Postnote; Pending further experimentation a very remarkable thing should be explored. It would appear from investigations that using long columns of coils in (3 Phase)resonance so that the coil group lengths, even though they are arranged to be adjacent lines of coils which should only show mutual inductance from the adjacent pole endings; reactive mesurements show they have no measurable mutual inductance and also operate according to the 120 degree phased inputs, yet when two of these phases are resonated from 120 degree sourcings, they instead appear 180 degrees out of phase by both respective amperage and voltage measurements. It should be rediculous to assume that that if a third group of coils were to be added to the two, that three sets of 180 phase angles could be procurred. BUT, what if stopping resonant magnetic fields in rotation instead increases the time differential BETWEEN those phases. But the question remains, what WOULD OCCUR? I think this should be tried soon.... HDN Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 15 09:58:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2FHwQHT029783; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:58:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2FHwOgl029766; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:58:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:58:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=dIHk1fOFBVFtPncDr9dAcBB78sVQOG6Q3tJp4NEFTN+P0b6cdMwxqhNJ8yJpmrZk; Message-ID: <410-220053215165826970 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: ZPE Jiggle or Cryogenic Neutrino Absorption? Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:58:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940829ec610cd4c1fc0f0189979748db148350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.195.230 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jones Beene wrote: > > Ways to test this: > > Compare two LENR cells, one of which has a lesser > concentration of Pd-105 in the cathode composition, which is > the isotope which could strongly interfere with BEC > formation. This would be very expensive, probably, unless > some of this kind of material can be "borrowed" from a > national lab. > I think freezing the electrolyte to be used in an electrolysis cell in LN2 or LHe4 for several hours before use would be easy to do. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Jones Beene wrote:

>
> Ways to test this:
>
> Compare two LENR cells, one of which has a lesser
> concentration of Pd-105 in the cathode composition, which is
> the isotope which could strongly interfere with BEC
> formation. This would be very expensive, probably, unless
> some of this kind of material can be "borrowed" from a
> national lab.
>
I think freezing the electrolyte to be used in an electrolysis cell

in LN2 or LHe4 for several hours before use would be easy to do.

Frederick

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 15 10:12:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2FIBlHT004983; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:11:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2FIBkVM004969; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:11:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:11:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHuGkJ8axclqHY+gqt0qtYm+rjw1vcz2tiw== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.35.165] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:09:57 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: end of science? X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050315.101032.11875.195761 webmail30.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:1:1142974791 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Could it be that scientific discoverys are also subject to the bell curve and we made be over the rise portion . Some thing to think about anyhow.-GES- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 15 13:59:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2FLwuO9026863; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:58:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2FLwsif026843; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:58:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:58:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr04o$k9446a mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.90,166,1107752400"; d="scan'208"; a="680661194:sNHT15227754" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: OT: The will of God Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:58:43 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Thomas, I hope you don't find this too forward of me to ask but I could use a clarification as to what your religious preferences are. It is my understanding that you are of the Evangelical persuasion. Pardon my ignorance but what remains unclear to me is whether this means you are Christian, Jewish, or perhaps something else. ... From: thomas malloy >> Allah = dictatorships? >> >> Islam means submission, does that answer your question? >> > That's why Allah isn't god? > > My reply > He, the G-d of Israel, has a name, it is spelled yod, hey vav hey, it > means I am what I am. There is no way that the two entities are the > same, there is only room in the universe for one all powerful king. > Or as a pastor I listen to puts it so eloquently, "we can't both of > us be right." A comparison of the two systems that resulted from them > makes that obvious. > Consider the possibility that there are many of the Islamic faith that are as tolerant of others as are many of the Christian and Jewish faith. Consider the possibility that in certain portions of the globe Islam has been hijacked by bigots in order to justify their hatred of outsiders for which they don't understand, and as such, fear. Consider the possibility that the efforts of these bigots who hide under the banner of Islam have twisted the meaning of this religion into convenient interpretations in order to justify their hatred of outsiders - and as a way to sanction acts of violence against outsiders. It is not all that different than what goes on at a good old fashion god-fearing Christian KKK rally. >From where I sit, hatred is an equal opportunity employer that works in mysterious ways in all religions. So also, IMHO, is love and tolerance an equal opportunity employer. ... > My reply > We have predicted the return of the Jews, the conquest of the land of > Israel, and the rebuilding of the Temple, which is happening now. As > for dates, forget it. > > > Steven Johnson also responded that Carl Sagan never accepted > Christianity. He seems to know more about it than I do. I am by no means an expert on Mr. Sagan. I've only read a couple of books written by Carl. Based on what I've read Mr. Sagan gave me the impression that he must have thought a great deal about the meaning of religion throughout much of his life. It lead me to speculate that Mr. Sagan may have wished there was a way to reconcile his respect for the philosophy of science (which was his bread-and-butter) with what I also suspect was his interest in religion. As to whether Mr. Sagan was ever "saved" or not, perhaps he never felt the need. Mr. Sagan kept many areas of his private life secret from public scrutiny during his life. For example, he used marijuana extensively. I believe Carl supported the notion to get the substance liberalized, particularly as a way to help alleviate the suffering he experienced from bone cancer. But I digress here. It is best to let Mr. Sagan speak for himself such as on the top of THEISM and ATHEISM: "Those who raise questions about the God hypothesis and the soul hypothesis are by no means all atheists. An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed. A wide range of intermediate positions seems admissible, and considering the enormous emotional energies with which the subject is invested, a questioning, courageous and open mind seems to be the essential tool for narrowing the range of our collective ignorance on the subject of the existence of God." -"The Amniotic Universe," Broca's Brain, p. 311." Hopefully, Mr. Sagan has answers to some of the questions he raised. > This was an interesting discussion. The bottom line is that a group > of religious Jews and Christians are continuing their efforts to > rebuild the Temple. In what is, IMHO, the most under reported story > of 2004, the Sanhedrin, the religious Jewish equivalent of a court, > has been reconvened after 1900 and some years. One of my rabbi's > talks about this issue can be purchased at www.hatikva.org . > And what happens after the temple is rebuilt? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 16 08:02:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2GG1sXM001462; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:01:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2GG1miw001414; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:01:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:01:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00ad01c52a41$41974280$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: A Dash of Silver, Students at work Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:59:52 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Considering the pace of progress of CF/LENR over the past decade, and the age of some of the researchers, the future of the field of inquiry will depend - to a large extent - on either a dedicated commitment by some other country (China, Italy and Japan come to mind)... ...or, hopefully, to the emergence of a trained cadre of young experimenters in the USA, like those of John Dash at Portland State U. Others professors, perhaps Ludwik Kowalski at Montclair State U may also get into the act of inspiring young talent, but at the graduate level, there are not very many programs producing published results in LENR. Notice that these two are not top-tier engineering universities, yet... that is where the future of the US commitment to LENR may lie. The Bockris and Miley (former) connections with top tier universities seem to be producing precious little in this regard. Some other the student effort can be seen pictorially at: http://www.lenr-canr.org/Experiments.htm Notice the last image of a metal cold-roller, a tool from another age almost. Not exactly a standard lab instrument, but it is used in the following paper. Some results of one of the students of Dash, named Abhay Ambadkar appear in this article, which demonstrates Pd transmutation.: ELECTROLYSIS OF D2O WITH A PALLADIUM CATHODE COMPARED WITH ELECTROLYSIS OF H20 WITH A PLATINUM ELECTRODE: PROCEDURE AND EXPERIMENTAL DETAILS. Abhay Ambadkar and John Dash. Low Energy Nuclear Laboratory (LENL), Portland State University, Portland, Oregon, USA. http://www.newenergytimes.com/students/2003DashJ-ColdFusionRecipe.pdf The interesting thing is that the operative reaction is 108Pd + n --> 109Pd --> 109Ag + energy (beta decay). Neutrons... now isn't that interesting. Active neutrons, but yet they are seldom detectible outside the cell. Is there a possible explanation for this? Yes! but it is on the fringe of the fringe, shall we say. And is generally ignored by even the LENR community. It has been a while since the Oppenheimer-Phillips effect (deuterium stripping) has been mentioned, so let me toss-out some edited older postings: Even though the "textbook" numbers seem to indicate otherwise, the proton and neutron in deuterium are comparatively *loosely bound.* In fact, if you flip the spin of one of the nucleons, the deuteron falls apart. For experimental data, any search on "self-targeting" of D2 should turn up loads of data, mostly red faces from experimenters who relied on the book figure (2224.573 keV) for binding energy. Deuterium can even decay to p + p + e- directly (~1.5 MeV), but it is so rare that it is seldom mentioned. The real difference from all other nuclei is that the effective distance between the two bosons, not to mention the low electric charge (cause and effect) - which makes the D nucleus *loosely bound. * Heisenberg's door is open wide enough for weak and EM interactions to supply the missing energy (recoverable) to induce a "stimulated" but "spontaneous" beta decay of the deuteron. And then perhaps, because the neutron is so "deficient" itself - and accelerated decay of any stripped neutron which is not immediately absorbed. In a nutshell, that explains the issue of non-detestability. In 1935 Robert Oppenheimer and Melba Phillips made a basic contribution to quantum theory, discovering what is known as the Oppenheimer-Phillips effect. It is known today (only in arcane circles like vortex) as the ‘stripping effect’ - and to this day the implications of it are not fully appreciated, even among high-energy physicists. Mainly because stripping (perhaps due to the vilification of Oppie), has slipped through the educational and categorical cracks’... and particularly since it is NOT high energy and tends to throw other energy balance calculations off, if included. In fact, I have a grave suspicions the widely used deuteron plasma cross-section table that is used by physicists all over the world was constructed without correction for neutron stripping reactions. The two physicists found that, when a deuteron is fired into a target atom even weakly in the low kilovolt range, the neutron of that deuteron can be stripped off the proton and penetrate the nucleus of the target. Before, it had been assumed that since the deuteron and target nucleus are both positively charged, each would just repel the other except in high-energy collisions. The Oppenheimer-Phillips effect suggests that electric polarization, at low energies of impinging deuterons, may act to nullify coulomb repulsion to a certain extent but that the effect is limited to deuterons, because it is the only nucleus in the periodic table in which the overall positive charge can be self-shielded WRT another nuclei. Most physicists who have not studied the Oppenheimer-Phillips effect assume that stripping is a form of spallation: which is a nuclear reaction in which a high-energy photon (i.e. EM radiation) causes a particles (most often, neutron) to be emitted from a target nucleus (usually a nucleus of high atomic number). Spallation is often initiated by a high-energy ion, fired from an accelerator, BUT it is photonic not kinetic and must be orders of magnitude higher in energy than is required for deuteron splitting. In spallation, the accelerated particle does not enter the nucleus but instead travels close enough to initiate a high energy photonic transfer with that nucleus - that is, spallation is the result of a self-absorbed bremsstrahlung emission. We know this because many of those photons are not absorbed and are easily detected. But Oppenheimer-Phillips stripping is neither traditional spallation nor photofission, at least insofar as there is no high energy photon transfer, and we know this because none are detectable - and they would be easy to detect if they were there - except for this qualification: extreme ultraviolet photons are universally absorbed by plasmas and/or reactor windows. OK, let me then qualify the preceding statement in this way: Oppenheimer-Phillips stripping, if it is low-energy spallation, could only be mediated by a photon which is not easily detectable, in other words, an EUV photon. This distinction is of particular importance in regard to Randell Mills hydrino theory in which EUV is implicated in certain novel hydrogen reactions. "Deuteron Structure" Science News May 2, 1998 "To understand the interactions that determine the size and shape of an atomic nucleus, it helps to have a detailed picture of the simplest possible combination: a proton bound to a neutron. Known as a deuteron, this simple nucleus has roughly the same dumbbell structure as a molecule consisting of two atoms." "An international team of about 60 researchers has completed an experiment at the Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility in Newport News, Va., in which an intense, high-energy electron beam interacted with deuterons in a liquid deuterium target. The electron energy was high enough to resolve details where had probed features just half the proton's size. Preliminary results indicate that even at the small scale now accessible- and contrary to theoretical predictions- the deuteron can be adequately described as consisting of two particles **loosely bound** together. "We don't have to worry about the quarks and gluons," notes team member Elizabeth Beise of the University of Maryland at College Park. In any case, experience has shown that any paper that assumes that fissioning deuterium requires MeV level center of mass energies is wrong. If you don't believe me, fire up any garage-made Fusor with 20 kv and a 2 keV plasma temp and count the neutrons. You don't have to worry about 3 sigma over background, you'll be closer to 3000 sigma. Of course, you will probably increase the background level by neutron activation over time. Significant neutrons from stripping have been seen with average plasma temperatures in the 1 eV range, but the actual particles involved are "runaways" in the 10+ keV range. In an effort to explain an alternative LENR mechanism, which is related to the one often referred to as 'warm' fusion, but appears in some CF work, this hypothetical mechanism of stripping could be the main operative mechanism. It could be found in the Farnsworth Fusor, the Gow magnetron, the Mizuno/ Ohmori/ Naudin glow reactor, some forms of sonofusion, the Graneau water arc, and other energy anomalies where deuterium ions are exposed to intense local electric fields (of 1 volt per micron, minimum which can be supplied by UV light for instance). It should be noted that detectable neutrons are not necessary - in order for the stripping mechanism to come into play, as it will be suggested that most stripped deuterons are either absorbed immediately, or are subject to accelerated decay. That is to say, the decay of free neutrons is accelerated by the same low energy process that created them (and the QM "deficit" which shows up as a huge shift in probability). The end result would be indistinguishable from ‘accelerated deuterium beta decay,’ except it is a two step process dependent of several intertwined variables. This reasoning will overcome the QM rationale of why the deuteron will easily decay in a high radiation environment, and why, on the cosmological level, deuterium is not seen to markedly increase over time, even though it is constantly being manufactured in the stellar environment at a far greater rate than it is being consummed. Detectable neutrons, especially the characteristic 2.5 MeV neutron which is found in the Farnsworth Fusor, may indeed be a predictable result of this underlying mechanism, but a high fraction of those could be *secondary* and are not part of the stripping mechanism per se. The Fusor is an Inertial Confinement Fusion device which benefits from spherical convergence, but the detected neutrons which are generated are not collisional (from spallation) nor from stripping, per se, according to the expert spectroscopy which has been performed. Instead the detectable neutrons are actual fusion-derived, BUT it should be realized that these may be only a portion of the total neutrons which could have been generated. And the energy derived from the accelerated decay of the (undetectable) stripped neutrons may be supplying a part of the power need for the real fusion reaction. Formerly, it was generally assumed the all the neutrons observed are the result of the two well-known lower energy D+D fusion reactions. In fact most of the observable neuts do test-out to the expected energy of ~2.5 MeV but their very existence may serve to prove that another form of energy has been used to create them. How low can you go to get D2 stripping - and is some forms of CF an indication of this effect? Well, the graduate students of today, like Abhay Ambadkar may be able to answer that question...IF... future funding is available for this kind of R&D. If not, perhaps his counterpart in China will find the answers, and they will be the beneficiaries of LENR in the coming years.. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 16 08:27:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2GGR6XM012913; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:27:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2GGR2MU012842; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:27:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:27:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c201c52a44$c8cdcb40$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <00ad01c52a41$41974280$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: A Dash of Silver, Students at work Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:25:35 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Oops. Needless to say, long quick postings often produce many errors: To wit: >The real difference from all other nuclei is that > the effective distance between the two bosons, not to > mention the low electric charge (cause and effect) - which > makes the D nucleus *loosely bound. * Heisenberg's door is > open wide enough for weak and EM interactions to supply the > missing energy (recoverable) to induce a "stimulated" but > "spontaneous" beta decay of the deuteron. And then perhaps, > because the neutron is so "deficient" itself - and > accelerated decay of any stripped neutron which is not > immediately absorbed. > > In a nutshell, that explains the issue of non-detestability. Well, this post may be detestable or not, but either way, it should be stated more succinctly. BTW this last bit of humor was a "reverse" spelling error, caused by my spell checker not knowing that non-detectability is an intended word, if not a real one. But most importantly the point of a "stimulated" but "spontaneous" beta decay of the deuteron is that it is two distinct parts: 1) An energy "deficient neutron is first stripped 2) Within a very short time, one of two things must happen, a) the stripped neutron is absorbed by another nucleus, or b) because of the QM energy deficit, it will undergo immediate decay to p+n and the excess energy "returned" Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 16 08:32:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2GGWeXM015231; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:32:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2GGWa6e015206; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:32:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:32:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00cc01c52a45$8f7d7100$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <00ad01c52a41$41974280$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> <00c201c52a44$c8cdcb40$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: A Dash of Silver, Students at work Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:31:09 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Oops, again. Needless to say, long quick postings often produce many errors which can seldom be corrected in a single post: "the effective distance between the two bosons" "bosons" should read as "fermions" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 16 12:15:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2GKF2XM024756; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:15:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2GKEvi0024716; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:14:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:14:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c52a64$ccfb61d0$91017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: A dash of silver, students at work Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:14:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C52A32.81030F80"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C52A32.81030F80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C52A32.81030F80" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C52A32.81030F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones, Its true Oppie took his licks for being an independent cuss, however, = our Madame Curie' had her moments also.=20 Interesting insight into his " obscure" work, perhaps some youngster is = lurking in the vortexian lair that will pick up on your thoughts. There are several youngsters at Texas A&M and Rice University that we = are encouraging toward grad school. One huge task is to stimulate men my = age to mentor these youth. Their attitude hopefully can be changed = from..just let me get my BS degree.. to a thirst for science at personal = sacrifice. True, high paying entry level jobs await them at their undergraduate = level but the nation is paying a dear price for blindness. We ran out of = time 25 years ago. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C52A32.81030F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones,
 
Its true Oppie took his licks for being an = independent=20 cuss, however, our Madame Curie' had her moments also.
Interesting insight into his " obscure" = work,=20 perhaps some youngster is lurking in the vortexian lair that = will pick=20 up on your thoughts.
 
There are several youngsters at Texas = A&M =20 and Rice University that we are encouraging toward grad school. One huge = task is=20 to stimulate men my age to mentor these youth. Their attitude hopefully = can be=20 changed from..just let me get my BS degree.. to a thirst for science at = personal=20 sacrifice.
 
True, high paying entry level jobs await = them at=20 their undergraduate level but the nation is paying a dear price for = blindness.=20 We ran out of time 25 years ago.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C52A32.81030F80-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C52A32.81030F80 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c52a64$cb697730$91017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C52A32.81030F80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 16 13:40:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2GLdYlO000694; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:40:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2GLdV7T000668; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:39:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:39:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A Dash of Silver, Students at work Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:39:16 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <00ad01c52a41$41974280$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> In-Reply-To: <00ad01c52a41$41974280$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2GLdKlO000570 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:59:52 -0800: Hi, [snip] >The interesting thing is that the operative reaction is >108Pd + n --> 109Pd --> 109Ag + energy (beta decay). Alternatively: 108Pd + Hydrino -> 109Ag directly + shrunken electron carrying away fusion energy? (I haven't read the paper yet). or 108Pd + "Deuterino" -> 109Ag directly + shrunken electron (most energy) + proton (little energy) (For "Deuterino" see below). [snip] >OK, let me then qualify the preceding statement in this way: >Oppenheimer-Phillips stripping, if it is low-energy >spallation, could only be mediated by a photon which is not >easily detectable, in other words, an EUV photon. This >distinction is of particular importance in regard to Randell >Mills hydrino theory in which EUV is implicated in certain >novel hydrogen reactions. > >"Deuteron Structure" Science News May 2, 1998 >"To understand the interactions that determine the size and >shape of an atomic nucleus, it helps to have a detailed >picture of the simplest possible combination: a proton bound >to a neutron. Known as a deuteron, this simple nucleus has >roughly the same dumbbell structure as a molecule consisting >of two atoms." Riddle: What is very small, weighs 2 amu, and carries a single positive charge? Answer: A deuterium nucleus.....or is it a severely shrunken hydrino molecular ion? :) Could that be the true nature of some deuterons? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 16 14:18:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2GMIRUq018764; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:18:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2GMINnp018714; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:18:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:18:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3spdi8$1ahsbn mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.90,169,1107752400"; d="scan'208"; a="44626295:sNHT127496516" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Re: A Dash of Silver, Students at work Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:18:13 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: Robin van Spaandonk ... > Riddle: What is very small, weighs 2 amu, and > carries a single positive charge? > Answer: A deuterium nucleus.....or is it a > severely shrunken hydrino molecular ion? :) > Could that be the true nature of some deuterons? > [snip] > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk Not that I?m attempting to derail the on-going discussion but hasn?t it also been occasionally speculated that hydrinos (assuming they do exist) floating about in outer space might help explain where 90% of the missing mass in the universe is located? It's my understanding that the abundance of hot ionized H and He ejected from stars is considered an ideal gestation place for baking hydrinos. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 16 18:21:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2H2L9dj009628; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:21:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2H2L7TL009562; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:21:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:21:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A Dash of Silver, Students at work Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:20:50 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3spdi8$1ahsbn mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <3spdi8$1ahsbn mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2H2Kvdj009255 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to 's message of Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:18:13 +0000: Hi, [snip] >Not that I?m attempting to derail the on-going discussion but hasn?t it also been occasionally speculated that hydrinos (assuming they do exist) floating about in outer space might help explain where 90% of the missing mass in the universe is located? See Dr. Mills' book. > >It's my understanding that the abundance of hot ionized H and He ejected from stars is considered an ideal gestation place for baking hydrinos. [snip] Should be. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 16 20:53:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2H4r58E012304; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:53:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2H4r3RT012284; Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:53:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:53:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <016a01c52aa9$2ffa4e60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: OT: Our place in the Heavens Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:24:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0167_01C52A66.21619040" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0167_01C52A66.21619040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you have a newer computer with lots of memory for such "necessities" = as desktop images and screensavers (such as the free "Webshots" system) = then by all means - visit the NASA "image of the day" site (just like = E.T. you too can "call home" this month). For instance this incredible image of the Sombrero Galaxy (and many = more) are free for the taking from the NASA site. http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/110559main_image_feature_283_ajhfull.j= pg You can drop them right into your Webshots folder and they are beautiful = hi-rez. Something for free from Sam (kind of, if you don't count your = taxes) and with Hubble soon to expire, without a minor miracle, this may = be the end of the best of these images. In springtime, as DST approaches, the aliens among us can start to call = home again as Virgo reappears in the night sky, rising in the = south-east about midnight. The Virgo Cluster, with its some 2000 member = galaxies dominates our intergalactic neighborhood, as it represents the = physical center of our Local Supercluster (also called Virgo or = Virgo-Coma Supercluster), and influences all the galaxies and galaxy = groups by the gravitational attraction of its enormous mass.=20 This is *our universe* - plain and simple. It is a small fraction of = the night sky (if you deduct the Milky way itself which is local), yet = it contains everything that we will ever know for sure about the entire = universe. That is because we are tied with the umbilical cord of gravity = to only this small part of the sky, and everything else "could be" in = another dimension, as far as we will ever know.=20 Our Milky Way galaxy is a captive of the Virgo Cluster and Supercluster, = and eventually it will fall and merge into, or be eaten-up by the = cluster. Following which, there will probably be another local "little = bang" or at least the start of another long pulsation cycle.=20 Virgo is the second largest constellation we can view. It is highest in = the northern hemisphere during May and June, and departs in October, = until next spring. Virgo is the only female sign in the zodiac, and the = sun spends more time in this constellation than in any other zodiac = sign. Keep in mind the differences between our galactic center (that = is, the Milky Way's center in Sagittarius), and our galactic cluster's = center in Virgo: which is the center of thousands of galaxies of which = the Milky Way is merely one of average size. The easiest way to find Virgo, is (after midnight) to begin with the Big = Dipper in the northeast sky. If you follow the arc of the Big Dipper's = handle eastward, you will "arc to Arcturus" the bright orange star = midway up in the eastern sky that marks the base of the kite-shaped = figure of the Herdsman, in early Spring laying almost horizontal. = Continuing the line from Arcturus and you will "speed to Spica" the = brightest star in Virgo rising in the southeast. Spica is really the = only bright star visible in Virgo since the main part of this = constellation is the cluster of galaxies. Spica is, in fact, exceedingly = close to us and a double-star with total luminosity is 2000 times that = of our Sun. The supercluster itself is about 50-65 million light-years = away in the background and Spica is in the foreground.=20 Orion has now moved into the western sky and that area appears = relatively empty of stars. The north-western sky is somewhat richer = with the Pleiades. Slightly above them can be found the V-shaped = constellation of Taurus. Almost directly north is Gemini, with its two = bright stars, Castor and Pollux. Further east is Leo, with its main = star, Regulus. Two brilliant stars stand out overhead- esp. Sirius. The = Milky Way runs overhead from north-west to south-east. The Sombrero galaxy is technically not in Virgo, but close. This one is = the most beautiful image of the dozen or so which I have downloaded from = the NASA site. Enjoy. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0167_01C52A66.21619040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you have a newer computer with lots of memory for such = "necessities" as=20 desktop images and screensavers (such as the free "Webshots" system) =  then=20 by all means - visit the NASA "image of the day" site (just like = E.T. you=20 too can "call home" this month).
 
For instance this incredible image of the Sombrero Galaxy (and many = more)=20 are free for the taking from the NASA site.
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/110559main_image_feature_2= 83_ajhfull.jpg
 
You can drop them right into your Webshots folder and they are = beautiful=20 hi-rez. Something for free from Sam (kind of, if you don't count your = taxes) and=20 with Hubble soon to expire, without a minor miracle, this may be the end = of the=20 best of these images.
 
In springtime, as DST approaches, the aliens among us can start to = call=20 home again as Virgo reappears in the night sky,  rising in the = south-east=20 about midnight. The Virgo Cluster, with its some 2000 member galaxies = dominates=20 our intergalactic neighborhood, as it represents the physical center of = our=20 Local Supercluster (also called Virgo or Virgo-Coma Supercluster), and=20 influences all the galaxies and galaxy groups by the gravitational = attraction of=20 its enormous mass.
 
This is *our universe* - plain and simple. It is  a small = fraction of=20 the night sky (if you deduct the Milky way itself which is local), yet = it=20 contains everything that we will ever know for sure about the entire = universe.=20 That is because we are tied with the umbilical cord of gravity to only = this=20 small part of the sky, and everything else "could be" in another = dimension, as=20 far as we will ever know. 
 
Our Milky Way galaxy is a captive of the Virgo Cluster and = Supercluster,=20 and eventually it will fall and merge into, or be eaten-up by the = cluster.=20 Following which, there will probably be another local "little bang" or = at least=20 the start of another long pulsation cycle. 
 
Virgo is the second largest constellation we can view. It is = highest in the=20 northern hemisphere during May and June, and departs in October, until = next=20 spring. Virgo is the only female sign in the zodiac, and the sun spends = more=20 time in this constellation than in any other zodiac sign.  Keep in = mind the=20 differences between our galactic center (that is, the Milky Way's center = in=20 Sagittarius), and our galactic cluster's center in Virgo: which is the = center of=20 thousands of galaxies of which the Milky Way is merely one of average=20 size.
 
The easiest way to find Virgo, is (after midnight) to begin with = the Big=20 Dipper in the northeast sky. If you follow the arc of the Big Dipper's = handle=20 eastward, you will "arc to Arcturus" the bright orange star midway up in = the=20 eastern sky that marks the base of the kite-shaped figure of the = Herdsman, in=20 early Spring laying almost horizontal. Continuing the line from Arcturus = and you=20 will "speed to Spica" the brightest star in Virgo rising in the = southeast. Spica=20 is really the only bright star visible in Virgo since the main part = of this=20 constellation is the cluster of galaxies. Spica is, in fact, exceedingly = close=20 to us and a double-star with total luminosity is 2000 times that of our = Sun. The=20 supercluster itself is about 50-65 million light-years away in the = background=20 and Spica is in the foreground.
 
Orion has now moved into the western sky and that area appears = relatively=20 empty of stars.  The north-western sky is somewhat richer with the=20 Pleiades. Slightly above them can be found the V-shaped constellation of = Taurus.  Almost directly north is Gemini, with its two bright = stars, Castor=20 and Pollux. Further east is Leo, with its main star, Regulus. Two = brilliant=20 stars stand out  overhead- esp. Sirius. The Milky Way runs = overhead=20 from north-west to south-east.
 
The Sombrero galaxy is technically not in Virgo, but close. This=20 one is the most beautiful image of the dozen or so which I have = downloaded=20 from the NASA site. Enjoy.
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0167_01C52A66.21619040-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 17 07:04:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2HF4WLn022242; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:04:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2HF4EVs022037; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:04:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:04:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <028001c52b02$4c3fb660$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <3spdi8$1ahsbn mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Cygnet : was A Dash of Silver Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:02:08 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Vincent Johnson > Not that I'm attempting to derail the on-going discussion but hasn't it also been occasionally speculated that hydrinos (assuming they do exist) floating about in outer space might help explain where 90% of the missing mass in the universe is located? How can one derail anything off the wobbly tracts of vortex? This 'dark subject matter', as it turns out, is a pun-play-segue not to be missed.... especially, as I have handy an old post, one of several on the subject of "cosmic hydrinos" .... not to mention a good chuckle to start off your morning... if you should happen to be a movie fan of the late comedienne, Madeline Kahn, and are a bit of a Mutterspracher: The hydrino may be a good candidate for the extraordinary but once well-known cosmic particle, formerly known as the "Cygnon," now known as the "Cygnet" (as the editors of Physical Review have decreed). But did their decree have the side-effect being as unwittingly confusing this extraordinary particle with the enormous Schwannstecker ;-). This particle was a "hot" cosmology and physics topic in the mid-80s and might have faded from view, were it not for the elephantine memory of the internet. It is so extraordinary that 90% of physicists do not have a clue about it, even today - twenty years later. When the "fat lady" sings (not Madeline, please) and Dr. Mills finally proves the reality of the hydrino (or not), this proof might also end up being the swan-song of this other old-score mystery. The following is a little bit light-hearted, but not entirely half-hearted reminiscence of an unfinished chapter in particle physics and cosmology. Is it even remotely possible that the Cygnet can be identified as a hydrino ?? one that has shrunken far below ground state (1/137) and then been accelerated to almost lightspeed... or weirder yet, if one accepts the reality of the hydrino, but not necessarily the full reach of Mills' GUT/CQM, that in some remote cosmic furnace the hydrino can be built from the ground up, rather than forming later from top down? This might happen from cryogenic mass increase and neutrino capture, Some of the following has been paraphrased from an interesting copyrighted piece: with further string theory analysis from Frederick Sparber. Another reference is "Cygnons" M. M. Waldrop, Science 228, 1298 (1985) Mt. Blanc is the largest mountain in the Alps, and through it goes a tunnel which connects France with Italy. In a side room near the tunnel midpoint, normally in total darkness, resides a complex instrument containing many photomultiplier tubes, inappropriately named NUSEX, which was designed to observe the predicted decay of the proton. OK, maybe it is an appropriate name, if one happens to be the grad student stuck in there for weeks on end just to keep things plugged in. Although NUSEX saw no proton decays (another great theory bites the dust) and has now been upgraded for neutrino detection, for a decade or more it did detect something very strange and very powerful coming from the direction of the constellation Cygnus, the Swan. This remarkable particle has been dubbed the cygnon, or cygnet. It is hadron-like, meaning it looks like its got a few quarks of its own. Cygnets have truly enormous kinetic energy: thousands of times more than particles from the largest earthly accelerators. Gamma rays from Cygnus have the right energy, but produce only 1/300 of the µ-mesons observed in cygnon events. Cygnets must have no electric charge because they travel in a straight bee-line path which is not curved by the magnetic field of the galaxy. Because cygnets create so many µ-mesons in the atmosphere, it is likely that they are strongly interacting particles (like protons) rather than photons or neutrinos. The problem with cygnets being hadrons is they go too fast. Cygnus X-3 is a binary star system on the other side of our galaxy, with a neutron-star orbiting a normal star which feeds it hydrogen. The system has an orbital period of only 4.79 hours. The period can be used as a sort of "fingerprint" to tag radiation from Cygnus, which should change with this characteristic period - and indeed the cygnets do fluctuate on exactly the same 4.79 hour period. Not only is this confirming evidence of where they come from, it also means that they travel at essentially the speed of light; otherwise a large spread of lower speeds would wash out the time variations. But the variations are distinct and that just can't be correct, can it? To summarize the important properties of the Cygnet. (1) It is has no electric charge (and most verities of neutral atoms can be eliminated because the "empty space" between Earth and Cygnus contains enough interstellar hydrogen to strip electrons from energetic neutral atoms, but possibly not from highly shrunken hydrinos). (2) it has a rest mass that has been roughly estimated to be somewhere about 1/20 of a proton mass - but that estimate may be low as it was made working backwards on assumptions of just how close to light speed any such particle could travel (3) it is a strongly interacting particle; and (4) It must be stable or have a fairly long half-life. The variants of particle theory provide us with a menagerie of predicted but largely unobserved particles: Higgs bosons, axions, gravitinos, monopoles, squarks, etc. but so far as I know, even R. Mills hasn't ventured to cast the Cygnet particle as a highly shrunken hydrino. But he's probably got a few other pressing problems. The string circle particle model treats a proton as two "up or positive (+q) quarks" and one "down or negative (-q) quark" energy circles with a radius R = kq^2/E which each originally contained 1/2 of the energy of the progenitor photon going in a circle at velocity c with a wavelength "lambda" of 2(pi)R. Thus a proton can be a stable triad of three ~312 Mev "quarks-circles" made from two pairs of "K Mesons" of ~ 560 Mev made from a "big bang" photon of 1.12 GeV, the odd -man-out negative K meson decayed to the external electron: n* 1.02Mev/alpha = 8.00*1.02e6*137 = 1.12 Gev The Antiproton is a stable Triad of two "down or negative quarks" and one "up or positive quarks" with the odd-man-out positive K meson decaying to the external positron. In either case the bound quarks have an energy of ~312 Mev each with the 560 Mev - 312 Mev = 248 Mev going into their Binding Energy. The Proton: -----> + <------ - -------> + net spin + 1/2, net charge +q The Neutron: ------> + <------ - -------> + 0 <------- neutrino <------ - Net spin - 1/2 net charge 0.00. Unstable when unbound. The Cygnon (or highly shrunken Hydrino?) ------> + <----- - -------> + <------ - originally a negative 6.8 eV lepton, one or more ------> + originally a positive 6.8 eV lepton, one or more <------ - the original external hydrogen electron Net charge 0.00, net spin 0.00, Stable Unbound. 6.8 ev = 1.02e6/(8.0 * 137^2) or one of the numerous 6.8 ev particles (light leptons) that could be made from the 13.6 ev interactions of a proton with it's shrinking external electron, perhaps necessary to keep a neutrino-like "cushion" in there, and of course, we have to get "alpha" involved. Since mcr = hbar the mass (m) can decrease as radius r increases and vice versa allowing the "quarks" to exchange energy/mass and radius while conserving energy and momentum. In K electron capture where energies less than 1.0 mev is given off, the captured electron is shrunk down to a radius corresponding to more than 60 Mev which may or may not correspond to the minimum stable hydrino orbit which I have not heard Dr. Mills specify exactly. OTOH, when an electron or positron is given off with energies of a few MeV they swell up to their original radii. Going by this, Hydrino (or Cygnon) formation could give KeV to greater than MeV (binding energy) when formed. It's an intriguing question as to what the lowest energy stable hydrino looks like. Well this is a half-baked try, and it isn't grand, but we need a continuing mystery to keep things interesting. Oh yes, to add to the lingering mystery, Cygnus X-3 "switched off" in 1996. Kaput. Had not a lot of effort and documentation gone in to understanding the particle, prior to that time, it would be easy for the skeptic to write off the Cygnet as science fiction, kind of like the hydrino... ...or are we talking about the same thing, tarred and feathered ? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 17 07:18:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2HFHULn031308; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:17:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2HFHIn8031210; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:17:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:17:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <00ad01c52a41$41974280$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:17:27 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: A Dash of Silver, Students at work Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <881CrC.A.XnH.69ZOCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:59:52 >-0800: >Robin van Spaandonk posted; > > >OK, let me then qualify the preceding statement in this way: >>Oppenheimer-Phillips stripping, if it is low-energy >>spallation, could only be mediated by a photon which is not > >easily detectable, in other words, an EUV photon. This >>distinction is of particular importance in regard to Randell >>Mills hydrino theory in which EUV is implicated in certain > >novel hydrogen reactions. Please explain what the Oppenheimer-Phillips stripping and spallation is. > > >>"Deuteron Structure" Science News May 2, 1998 >>"To understand the interactions that determine the size and >>shape of an atomic nucleus, it helps to have a detailed >>picture of the simplest possible combination: a proton bound >>to a neutron. Known as a deuteron, this simple nucleus has >>roughly the same dumbbell structure as a molecule consisting >>of two atoms." This is very interesting not only for the insights that it gives us into the nature of the nucleus, but that our imaging technology has improved to this point. Do any of you people know anything about this? > >Riddle: What is very small, weighs 2 amu, and carries a single >positive charge? >Answer: A deuterium nucleus.....or is it a severely shrunken >hydrino molecular ion? :) >Could that be the true nature of some deuterons? I think that a shrunken deuterium should be called a dydrino. Has anyone experimented with fusing it with a metallic atom? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 17 09:39:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2HHdHLn007057; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:39:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2HHdEwN006990; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:39:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:39:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=GbfKbpJ3GWQ/QIOVf6DJ/IHZfpyIjwljnlvD4nkQQ31Zx6Rl21YovFInHVawDDzf5FDFWD11EmpNH5ADIZJtXbapMaAREyRxolDlcSqzm9uNqpwQV9B+lSJW7lpD2FWYNPx6vFnuy3dB/5fmHDp1oKPWfBJHRNl0FCJziRu0jk0= ; Message-ID: <20050317173217.1393.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:32:17 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Cygnet : was A Dash of Silver To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <028001c52b02$4c3fb660$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1363249857-1111080737=:98152" Resent-Message-ID: <7JiSlD.A.BtB.ADcOCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1363249857-1111080737=:98152 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "It's true! It's truuuuue!" (Jes so you know your pearls are not cast before swine.) Jones Beene wrote: When the "fat lady" sings (not Madeline, please) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1363249857-1111080737=:98152 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
"It's true!  It's truuuuue!"
 
(Jes so you know your pearls are not cast before swine.)

Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:
When the "fat lady" sings (not Madeline, please)

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http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1363249857-1111080737=:98152-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 17 10:24:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2HIOdLn004312; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:24:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2HIObaN004279; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:24:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:24:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <02d601c52b1d$c6c9ff60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050317173217.1393.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: OT A Blaze of Madeline Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:18:53 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > "It's true! It's truuuuue!" ...and then Bart said, 'Ma'am, you're sucking on my arm!'" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 17 10:57:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2HIunLn023312; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:56:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2HIuk6C023273; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:56:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:56:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <02bc01c52b1c$2d3bce60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <3spdi8$1ahsbn mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> <028001c52b02$4c3fb660$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Subject: Re: Cygnet : was A Dash of Silver Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:07:26 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- > Oh yes, to add to the lingering mystery, Cygnus X-3 "switched off" in 1996. > Kaput. > Had not a lot of effort and documentation gone in to understanding the particle, prior to that time, it would be easy for the skeptic to write off the Cygnet as science fiction, kind of like the hydrino... Hold the presses... UPDATE... HUGE UPDATE Whoa, Buckaroo-Bonzai... Blue-blazers, aimed right at us! Just did a quick google search for Cygnus X-3 and found a story from a few days back that makes it appear as if the fat lady has not had her swan song just yet... Brünnhilde beware. http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v310/n5979/abs/310662a0.html Holy Cow... Looks like the Swan is primed and waiting for the next big bang. During an intense flare in 1997, a VLBA radio map showed one-sided radio jet, about 50 milliarcseconds long. Two days later it extended to 120 mas and then it disappeared !! This likely makes Cyg X-3 a ...ta-da...[drumroll] ***galactic blazar*** Visions of Apocalypse Now, the smell of napalm, and the Ride of the Valkyries reverberating in the background ... A galactic blazar is a real barn burner ... a jet source spewing out solar-equivalents-per second of laser-like coherent mass/energy in the form of Cygnets... and now it appears that we were looking straight down the into the barrel of the Swan's jet, which is the first example of a blazar to be found in our own galaxy. !!! And this is news from just last week !!!... Before such a phenomenon, the fearsome galactic blazar, was only known in Active Galactic Nuclei of other galaxies, very far away. The next opportunity to study Cygnus X-3 during a bright flare may be just around the corner. Just before a major flare, the radio and hard X-ray emission from Cygnus X-3 drops very low and stays there for days or weeks - as if something is building up before the explosion. Just hope it doens't have naything to do with the year 2012 http://www.rotten.com/library/religion/apocalypse/ Sorry. Had to throw that last one in for the vortex dooms-dayers... Hey, at least it gives you seven years to "get your house in order"... ;-) Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 17 11:41:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2HJeuLn015687; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:40:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2HJekIR015573; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:40:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:40:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <030c01c52b22$c04d48e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: New to me Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:54:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0309_01C52ADF.B098BA80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0309_01C52ADF.B098BA80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In cosmology, we find ample evidence that supports the idea of matter = can be composed of multiple neutrons: neutron stars. =20 Zero protons, only neutrons, supposedly. These dense bodies, which contain an enormous number of bound neutrons, = suggest that as yet unexplained forces come into play when neutrons = gather en masse. But how small can they get? and could they be something = else? four? hydrinos? or... why worry? according to Sci-Am, physics is complete, no? "Tetraneutrons"=20 from: the New Scientist article: "13 things that do not make sense" BTW at # 13 is CF http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=3Dmg18524911.600 FOUR years ago, a particle accelerator in France detected six particles = called " tetraneutrons" : four neutrons that are bound together in a way = that defies the laws of physics, and should not exist.=20 Francisco Miguel Marqu=E8s and colleagues at the Ganil accelerator in = Caen are now gearing up to do it again. If they succeed, these clusters = may oblige us to rethink the forces that hold atomic nuclei = together...and that will "raise some Cain" in the physics establishment. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0309_01C52ADF.B098BA80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In cosmology, we find ample evidence that supports the idea of = matter can=20 be composed of multiple neutrons: neutron stars. 
 
Zero protons, only neutrons, supposedly.
 
These dense bodies, which contain an enormous number of bound = neutrons,=20 suggest that as yet unexplained forces come into play when neutrons = gather en=20 masse. But how small can they get? and could they be something = else?
 
four? hydrinos?
 
or... why worry? according to Sci-Am, physics is complete, = no?
 
"Tetraneutrons" 
 
from: the New Scientist article:
"13 things that do not make sense" BTW at # 13 is CF
http:= //www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=3Dmg18524911.600
 
FOUR years ago, a particle accelerator in France detected six=20 particles called " tetraneutrons" : four neutrons that are = bound=20 together in a way that defies the laws of physics, and should not exist. =
 
Francisco Miguel Marqu=E8s and colleagues at the Ganil accelerator = in Caen=20 are now gearing up to do it again. If they succeed, these clusters may = oblige us=20 to rethink the forces that hold atomic nuclei together...and that will = "raise=20 some Cain" in the physics establishment.
 
Jones
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0309_01C52ADF.B098BA80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 17 12:33:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2HKXVLn020570; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:33:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2HKXRwc020532; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:33:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:33:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050317203248.0068353c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:32:48 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: It' funny when you think about it (peculiar not Ha-Ha) that water and carbon - the two most important constituents of the human body - have a lot in common. Carbon has two main allotropes, Diamond and Graphite. Water also has two main allotropes, Water and Ice. Now it's true that we normally think of water and ice as different phases rather than allotropes. But we must approach this subject from a poetic angle if we wish to come up with new insights. Ice is thieves' argot for diamonds. But water ice is not the water equivalent of carbon "Ice". Quite the reverse - Water ice corresponds to carbon graphite since it has the same hexagonal structure (kind of) and the same low density compared to its allotrope. For comparison, the densities are graphite: 2.3 diamond : 3.5 ice: 0.9 water : 1.0 If we ground up diamonds to make a very fine "fluid", then graphite "icebergs" would float on this fluid with about one third of the berg sticking up above the surface. By contrast only one eighth of an ocean iceberg appears above the surface. Now anyone who has studied Professor Chaplin's web site will realise that though water ice tries to imitate graphite by forming hexagonal crystals it makes a pretty poor job of it cos the hexagons are all crinkled - a bit like those saddle shaped crisps (chips in US-speak) sold in long cardboard tubes. As Chaplin puts it:- ================================== "The basic structure consists of a hexameric box where planes consist of chair-form hexamers (the two horizontal planes, opposite) or boat-form hexamers." ================================== There is, of course, another allotrope of carbon which has been discovered relatively recently, namely, buckminster fullerene in its various shapes and sizes. This too has its counterpart in water clusters though here again the structure of the waterclusters is not nearly so beautifully regular as C60. The coincidence of the structure of C60 and the English football is surely a heavenly sign that rugger and American football are the works of the devil - although seeing that carbon is the main fuel for hell fire, perhaps it is the other way around. . Mmm....come to think of it the Yankee ball is the shape of Vesica Pisces, which can't be bad. ;-) For many years I have been pondering why the temperature vs. density curve for water between 100 and 0 degrees Centigrade is of the same form (root three power) as the shape of the stress strain curve for concrete. The inverse of temperature which I have named Compreture - (though if anyone knows of an earlier name I will be happy to use it) corresponds to the loading of the compression testing machine; and the zero degree centigrade point where the water collapses into ice corresponds to the point where the concrete testing machine off loads its tensile strain energy into the concrete causing it to break up into a lower density conglomerate. The isotropic pressure of the Compreture "testing machine" can be seen to be attempting to make the water into pretty isotropic tetrahedral structures like diamond. But the water doesn't want to go there. It wants to form nice graphite like sheets and because the Compreture test machine isn't stiff enough. at 0 degrees the water wriggles away and does just that. Now it seems to me that there is an awful lot of strain energy that is going to waste in the transition from quasi-diamond to quasi-graphite. How can one tame these wild horses which are cantering about all over the field burning up calories without doing anything useful. There must be a way of breaking them in and harnessing them to the plough. One needs to find a way to accelerate the "diamond-graphite" transition so that the energy appears at the micro-scale of pressure rather than at the nano-scale of heat. On needs to speed up the transition from isotropic to asymmetric in some way or other. One possibility would be to project tiny droplets of 4 degree water against a very stiff flat surface at supersonic speed. This might instantly flatten any isotropic structure such as near tetrahedrons or clusters, and release a lot of the tension-compression strain energy. I seem to remember reading somewhere about such an experiment but I think it was in connection with achieving fusion. Another possibility is to subject the 4 degree water to asymmetric shock and awe with electric or magnetic fields. Obviously, there are many possible regimes that one could investigate and no doubt it will require the dedication of a Swan or Edison to carry out the vast number of experiments needed to achieve success. However, the rewards are so enormous that once people are convinced of the plausibility of the endeavour a successful outcome is inevitable - assuming of course, that the insight is correct. There have been many reports of the addition of water to I.C. engines improving their performance. I would think it's quite likely there's some truth in these reports and that quite by accident people have stumbled upon a way of tapping the energy of the Beta-atmosphere / Casimir pressure / ZPE - call it what you will. I visualise a closed system analogous to a refrigeration system or Stirling engine which cycles water around the 4 degree - hexagonal ice transition. The engine will run nice and cool which will be good for the working parts. ;-) I suppose the biggest obstacle to such a development is the fact that it would be too good to be true. A bit like cold fusion in fact, only more so. Just think, complete independence from the oil barons, the electric power barons, etc. The mind boggles. Cheers Frank Grimer ================================== et dicit ei omnis homo primum bonum vinum ponit et cum inebriati fuerint tunc id quod deterius est tu servasti bonum vinum usque adhuc =================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 17 12:48:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2HKmSLn027209; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:48:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2HKmPpc027184; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:48:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:48:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050317204745.006b156c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:47:45 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: New to me Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2HKmILn027137 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:54 am 17-03-05 -0800, Jones wrote: > In cosmology, we find ample evidence that > supports the idea of matter can be composed > of multiple neutrons: neutron stars. > > Zero protons, only neutrons, supposedly. > > These dense bodies, which contain an enormous > number of bound neutrons, suggest that as yet > unexplained forces come into play when neutrons > gather en masse. But how small can they get? and > could they be something else? > > four? hydrinos? > > or... why worry? according to Sci-Am, physics > is complete, no? > > "Tetraneutrons" > > from: the New Scientist article: > "13 things that do not make sense" BTW at # 13 is CF > http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18524911.600 > > FOUR years ago, a particle accelerator in France detected > six particles called " tetraneutrons" : four neutrons > that are bound together in a way that defies the laws > of physics, and should not exist. > > Francisco Miguel Marquès and colleagues at the Ganil > accelerator in Caen are now gearing up to do it again. > If they succeed, these clusters may oblige us to rethink > the forces that hold atomic nuclei together...and that > will "raise some Cain" in the physics establishment. > > Jones I have often mused as to what would happen if one continued the chart of the nuclides on to much high numbers of nucleons. Eventually the neutrons would dominate and one can visualize a huge atom constituting of a core of neutrons with a layer of protons at the surface which in turn is surrounded by a layer of electrons forming a kind of atmosphere. Now there are supposed to be "islands of stability" beyond the elements known to *Harvaard*. Perhaps neutron stars are examples of one of the islands on a very large scale. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 17 12:52:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2HKpmLn028715; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:51:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2HKpk6g028691; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:51:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:51:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:52:31 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: New to me Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:54 AM 3/17/5, Jones Beene wrote: >In cosmology, we find ample evidence that supports the idea of matter can >be composed of multiple neutrons: neutron stars. > >Zero protons, only neutrons, supposedly. > >These dense bodies, which contain an enormous number of bound neutrons, >suggest that as yet unexplained forces come into play when neutrons gather >en masse. But how small can they get? and could they be something else? No unexplained force there. The force is gravity. Neutron stars form instead of black holes when there is insufficient mass to crunch the neutrons and form the black hole. Dineutrons have been observed - it's just they are not stable and have a short half-life. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 17 13:21:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2HLKiLn008849; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:20:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2HLKhrK008830; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:20:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:20:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:21:26 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: A Dash of Silver, Students at work Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:17 AM 3/17/5, thomas malloy wrote: >>>"Deuteron Structure" Science News May 2, 1998 >>>"To understand the interactions that determine the size and >>>shape of an atomic nucleus, it helps to have a detailed >>>picture of the simplest possible combination: a proton bound >>>to a neutron. Known as a deuteron, this simple nucleus has >>>roughly the same dumbbell structure as a molecule consisting >>>of two atoms." > >This is very interesting not only for the insights that it gives us >into the nature of the nucleus, but that our imaging technology has >improved to this point. Do any of you people know anything about this? Check the vortex archives. There was much discussion of this and many related issues even prior to 1998. Below is a 1998 sample speculation, a very weak and idle speculation, but one from which many variants, some not even using NMR, can be germinated. One variation is directing a deuteron beam through a set of powerful but alternately aligned magnets such that the fields appear to the deuterons to alternate at the NMR resonant frequency. Such an environment can be obtained by colliding deuterons with some metal lattices at selected speeds. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - A D2O NMR Reactor Horace Heffner - 1/4/98 Rich Murray quotes Robert I. Eachus: "Even though the numbers seem to indicate otherwise, the proton and neutron in deuterium are very loosly bound. In fact, if you flip the spin of one of the nucleons, the deuteron falls apart." [I think this is actually a quote from one of Eachus' vortex posts.] If this is true then it should be possible to flip the proton in the deuterium atoms, in D2O for example, using nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR), to achieve fission. Deuterium has a relatively low receptivity to NMR stimulation though. Flipping protons in other nuclei using NMR is not much in the way of an idea, but flipping the proton in deuterium seems very feasible. All you need is a two magnet poles, a sample of D2O in between, and a perpendicular coil with the resonant frequency. This strikes me as a really convenient way to produce neutrons. Isotope Magnetogyric NMR Frequency Ratio (MHz Relative to H) (10^7 rad T^-1 s^-1) 1H 26.7510 100.000000 2H 4.1064 15.351 Using the value 4.1064 10^7 rad T^-1 s^-1 I get 6.5355 MHz/T. It is fairly easy to get a uniform 0.1 T magnetic field using permanent magnets, so that would be a resonant frequency of 410,640 Hz in the 0.1 T field. If nothing is wrong with the idea, then the neutron production could be used to create isotopes right in the D2O solution. For example tritium could be manufactured in this way. However, this only produces 18.6 KeV per atom, so is not good for energy production. A solution saturated in 7Li (i.e. LiOH) would produce lots of 8Li though, at 16.005 MeV per atom beta decay, and 0.84 s half life. Still this is not good for energy storage, due to the short half life of 8Li. Could produce 10Be from 9Be, but 10Be has too long a long half life (1.52 x 10^6 y) and small energy production at only 0.556 MeV. 12B production is another short half-life (24 ms) possibility with 11.71 MeV beta production. Here is a summary of some candidates: Daughter Parent Isotope Half Life Energy Cross Secion Decay modes (MeV) (Barns) 8Li 0.84 s 16.005 45 mb beta, alpha 10Be 1.52x10^6 y 0.5561 8.1 mb beta 12B 0.0202 s 13.369 5.3 mb beta, gamma 20F 11 s 7.029 9.5 mb beta, gamma 24Na 14.96 h 5.514 0.433 beta, gamma 32P 14.28 d 1.71 0.16 beta 36Cl 3.01x10^5 y 0.7083 43.7 beta, E.C.(1.142 MeV) 41Ca 1.03x10^5y 0.421 0.413 E.C. 46Sc 83.81 d 2.367 27.0? beta, gamma 52V 3.76 m 3.976 4.91 beta, gamma 56Mn 2.578 h 3.696 13.3 beta, gamma 60Co 5.271 y 2.824 58.8 beta, gamma etc. Note that none of these candidates create long term waste byproducts. Only 10Be, 36Cl, 41Ca and 60Co present storage problems, but even the intermediate half life of 60Co is very useful. From a cross section standpoint, Na, Cl, V, Mn, and Co look fairly good. A good candidate for an NMR reactor might be MnSiF6 dissolved in D2O. This would be nuclear waste free except for the structure. Use of quartz for structure and containment would help on that. Main problems are field magnets and exciter coils. Keeping a sufficient amount of water shielding between the coils, magnets, and active resonance location should help keep activation of the coils and magnets to a minimum. SiO2 containment could be used to make a boundary between the radioactive D2O solution and sheilding H2O. It would take a fairly large reactor to be waste free for all practical purposes. The shielding H2O would also produce D2O fuel. A Li jacket could also be used for the purpose of making both fuel and energy as with the D-T fusion reactor, but this would produce more waste unless contianment of this jacket were in quartz. Also, the neutrons from D are thermal, so the reaction n + Li7 --> Li6 + n + n is not present. A LiOH H2O solution might make for a good containment sheild. Regardless of all these kinds of considerations, the NMR reactor would be much cleaner than DT fusion, due to the ability to keep the reaction zone away from immediate contact with Al. The biggest problem in managing the neutrons in the D2O NMR Reactor design seems to be the D2 itself. The reaction: n + D --> T eats up the neutrons because D is the most common species. Fortunately the thermal neutron cross section for D is only 0.32 mb. If the water is a good mix of D2O and T2O, and even includes H2O, then it could end up being a neutron shell game, to get the neutron eventually to the target nucleus, that being Li7, Li8, Mn55, etc, the neutron plays a shell game in various reactions with various terminating ends: n + D --> T n + T --> 2 D + e- n + T --> D + n + n n + H --> D T --> He3 + e- n + He3 --> He4 + e- n + Li6 --> T + He4 It is also interesting that the reaction n + Li7 really takes shape as: N + Li7 --> Li8 --> e- + Be8 --> e- + He4 + He4 In various scenarios the final output is helium. Also of interest is the feasibility of running the reactor on only D and Li as input fuel. The suggested reactor can not multiply neutrons, is not a breader, so, assuming NMR can eventually release 100 percent of the neutrons at a low energy cost, and each neutron is worth, say, 10 MeV on average, the main issue comes down to the economics. The 1993-94 edition of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the price for D2O as varying from $0.06/g to $1.00/g, depending on quantity and purity. Since purity is no issue, and volume would be large, we can use $0.10/g for a first estimate of cost in volume. Using 20 as the molecular weight for D2O we have a cost/mol of $2.00/mol. So, we have an energy output E=(10^6 eV/atom)(6.02x10^23 atoms/mol)(1.6x10^-19J/ev)=9.64x10^10 J/mol. At $2/mol the cost of the energy is 4.82x10^10 J/$. At 3600 J/KWh, we have 1.34x10^7 KWh/$. Assuming a plant efficienty of 1 percent, we still produce power at 1.34x10^5 KWh/$, which compares very favorably with present rates of appx. 10 KWh/$. The rest of the economic determination depends on plant cost and that depends on the remaining question of how much neutron flux can be obtained from NMR excitement of deuterium. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 17 16:26:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2I0Q3tE031278; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:26:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2I0Q1VR031240; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:26:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:26:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: New to me X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = dcf35902a696aec8ab4a512a7c111b8b Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050318002541.250B6B71E xprdmailfe15.nwk.excite.com> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:25:41 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- On Thu 03/17, Jones Beene < jonesb9 pacbell.net > wrote: > FOUR years ago, a particle accelerator in France detected six particles > called " tetraneutrons" : four neutrons that are bound together in a > way that defies the laws of physics, and should not exist. > Francisco Miguel Marquès and colleagues at the Ganil accelerator in Caen > are now gearing up to do it again. If they succeed, these clusters may > oblige us to rethink the forces that hold atomic nuclei together... > and that will "raise some Cain" in the physics establishment. Well, it should raise some Cain, but given the physics establishment's record of ignoring all the elephants wandering around in their living room, I wouldn't count on it. My own rudimentary experiments showing that objects with the same electrostatic charge can be made to attract in close enough proximity are pointedly ignored by most anyone I show them to. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 17 16:58:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2I0wTcG012687; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:58:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2I0wP9W012637; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:58:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:58:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: bcherry nixsys.bz To: vortex-L eskimo.com Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:56:37 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050318005637.C642027B5A4 mail.nixsys.bz> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Unidentified subject! Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Alternative Energy Researchers, I am a student from Antioch college in Ohio and have worked with an independent physicist in Yellow Springs by the name of John Schnurer, who recommended that I contact you. Both John and I have collaborated on projects in thermoelectrics. I corresponded with Bill Beatty sometime ago about the subject of alternative energy technologies and why they are not implemented within society on a large scale. This is now the thesis question for my dissertation. More recently I have spoken with Eric Krieg and the technological means of using solar energy as a primary power source. I am interested in interviewing scientists, engineers and other researchers about the subject of alternative energy technologies and resources; the type of research they're engaged in, the scientific and economic feasibility and application of alt energy technologies etc. I am interested in both'hard' and 'soft' science in regards to alternative energy, especially the application of renewables such as solar energy and hydrogen. This includes people involved with 'free energy' technologies who are credible sources. I understand that this is quite a huge task. Any interested parties feel free to contact me by email or forward this email and/or post it on relevant listservs with my email. I appreciate your time. Cheers, Brett Cherry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 17 20:38:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2I4cCcG021482; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:38:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2I4c7fn021454; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:38:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:38:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cygnet : was A Dash of Silver Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:37:54 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3spdi8$1ahsbn mxip14a.cluster1.charter.net> <028001c52b02$4c3fb660$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> In-Reply-To: <028001c52b02$4c3fb660$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2I4c0cG021347 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:02:08 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Cygnets have truly enormous kinetic energy: thousands of >times more than particles from the largest earthly >accelerators. Gamma rays from Cygnus have the right energy, >but produce only 1/300 of the µ-mesons observed in cygnon >events. Cygnets must have no electric charge because they >travel in a straight bee-line path which is not curved by >the magnetic field of the galaxy. Because cygnets create so >many µ-mesons in the atmosphere, it is likely that they are >strongly interacting particles (like protons) rather than >photons or neutrinos. [snip] So why can't a high energy gamma-ray be absorbed by a nucleus of oxygen/nitrogen in the upper atmosphere, and strip a proton off (or tear the nucleus to shreds), which then have extreme energy? Gamma ray travels at speed of light, and is unaffected by galactic magnetic field, proton(s) create muons locally. No more mystery particle. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 17 20:40:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2I4eNcG022513; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:40:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2I4eJdA022480; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:40:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:40:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A Dash of Silver, Students at work Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:40:10 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1smk31pmfmnqj7onko97lfdste5m1rop2l 4ax.com> References: <00ad01c52a41$41974280$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2I4eFcG022429 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:17:27 -0600: Hi, [snip] >I think that a shrunken deuterium should be called a dydrino. Has [snip] dydrino it is! :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 17 20:47:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2I4kpcG027176; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:46:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2I4kmhJ027144; Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:46:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:46:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: michael.foster excite.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: New to me Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:55:33 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20050318002541.250B6B71E xprdmailfe15.nwk.excite.com> In-Reply-To: <20050318002541.250B6B71E xprdmailfe15.nwk.excite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200503172355.33230.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > Well, it should raise some Cain, but given the physics establishment's > record of ignoring all the elephants wandering around in their > living room, I wouldn't count on it. > > My own rudimentary experiments showing that objects with the same > electrostatic charge can be made to attract in close enough > proximity are pointedly ignored by most anyone I show them to. > Some of these same ones in astronomy departments all over the world spend a shocking amount of time applying 'correcting factors' to observed superliminal relative velocities and build models in their minds of which Ptolemy would be proud in order to continue to try to justify to themselves Einstein's 100 year old and outmoded idea of the supposed 'universal speed limit'. They really do not know what is really going on many thousands of light years from us; and to assume that the volume of an element of space is a constant for purposes of these calculations may preserve careers at the cost of setting back real advancement of our understanding. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 18 00:59:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2I8xJju002098; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:59:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2I8wagc001808; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:58:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:58:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20050317203248.0068353c pop.freeserve.net> References: <2.2.32.20050317203248.0068353c pop.freeserve.net> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 02:58:56 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >It' funny when you think about it (peculiar not Ha-Ha) >that water and carbon - the two most important >constituents of the human body - have a lot in common. > >Carbon has two main allotropes, Diamond and Graphite. carbon black makes three, and fullerine makes four. > >Water also has two main allotropes, Water and Ice. steam or water vapor makes three, this is the first time I've heard about the macro clusters of water. As I mentioned to Richard M there is a book, Water, The Hexagonal Key, which talks about structuring water. The man who operates the ewater.com website says that the technology can be used to tap the ZPE. I'm very interested in what the author of the book says, I wish I had the resources to pursue it. > >There have been many reports of the addition >of water to I.C. engines improving their >performance. I would think it's quite likely >there's some truth in these reports and that >quite by accident people have stumbled upon a >way of tapping the energy of the Beta-atmosphere >/ Casimir pressure / ZPE - call it what you will. I wish you the best of luck with this line of investigation, BTW, I prefer ZPE > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 18 07:23:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2IFMkju012297; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:22:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2IFMhPN012273; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:22:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:22:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=yBq0L9YIZMNanJ0Gy1n+IIH1+IwaCmLDO1iD1siahILAKbl9VJ1kIF47NYXUS63sXGE4GpP+WPJ1Q29AVviTu8yOfklkzoslT7TA6OVmGVt/wOwMu8NspDr0bpF0akoQC1CXVpbXf3WAPg9ms89nTIkmhvt4p8eqC4z5MgBzxX0= ; Message-ID: <20050318152234.38110.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:22:34 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Tsunami Signals Swan Song? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-427397655-1111159354=:37972" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-427397655-1111159354=:37972 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Several interesting articles: http://exopolitics.blogs.com/exopolitics/2005/03/did_a_neutron_s.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-427397655-1111159354=:37972 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
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http://mail.yahoo.com --0-427397655-1111159354=:37972-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 18 07:33:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2IFXRju020636; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:33:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2IFXMYd020598; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:33:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:33:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050318153311.76977.qmail web81105.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:33:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Cygnet : was A Dash of Silver To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <8iqYO.A.uBF.CTvOCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > So why can't a high energy gamma-ray be absorbed by a nucleus of oxygen/nitrogen in the upper atmosphere, and strip a proton off (or tear the nucleus to shreds), which then have extreme energy? ....this happeans all the time, except for the "extreme" part. It is called spallation.... there are definite QM limits as to how much energy can be transfered to any one particle and it is way too small. Usually after a neutron (of a few MeV) is "boiled off" in spallation - then another but slightly lower high energy gamma-ray is reemitted and this can go on for many steps. This can be worked out in Feynman diagrams and QED but it is nowhere close to what is seen with the Cygnet. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 18 07:38:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2IFcTju023557; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:38:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2IFcQpp023534; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:38:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:38:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050318153815.50564.qmail web81107.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:38:15 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: New to me To: michael.foster excite.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Michael Foster wrote: > My own rudimentary experiments showing that objects with the same electrostatic charge can be made to attract in close enough proximity are pointedly ignored by most anyone I show them to. "Ignored" may be the wrong word. Just as with Ken Shoulders excellent experiments with EVOs showing massive like-charge attraction, which work is generally "ignored" by mainstream physics, it seems to me that the problem is that we do not have a good category available yet for where to place that kind of information. Are your experiments similar to those of Ken Shoulders? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 18 07:59:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2IFx3ju004361; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:59:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2IFx2Xp004333; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:59:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:59:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=5Czdkmt3XsuOrj4xBtXM0jumuSIDVX0IFEg+ehrjk2X3fzAeVSfUj15/f1fGcGJTp0tilEE8EfOra9aSLVK07GIYq/wfU/SKKShtp23wDFJWfwhNSKEDQ0QJihsYw5wv2PLSIy7/c5cZLnaW1JQP8uHif5LWta0gMEFWTPrjXOM= ; Message-ID: <20050318155850.67005.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:58:50 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Mining Artic Hydrates To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-846886621-1111161530=:66144" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-846886621-1111161530=:66144 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Someone's listening! http://sts.gsc.nrcan.gc.ca/permafrost/arcticgas.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? 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Make Yahoo! your home page --0-846886621-1111161530=:66144-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 18 08:09:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2IG9Cju010868; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:09:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2IG9AAD010846; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:09:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:09:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3rr04o$k9446a mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <3rr04o$k9446a mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 03:19:18 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OT: The will of God Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hi Thomas, > >I hope you don't find this too forward of me to ask but I could use >a clarification as to what your religious preferences are. It is my >understanding that you are of the Evangelical persuasion. Pardon my >ignorance but what remains unclear to me is whether this means you >are Christian, Jewish, or perhaps something else. > Not at all, we call our religion Messianic Judaism. We keep Sabbath and the Levitical Festivals and do our best to be Torah Observant. >... >From: thomas malloy > >>> Allah = dictatorships? >>> >>> Islam means submission, does that answer your question? >>> > > That's why Allah isn't god? >" A comparison of the two systems that resulted from them > > makes that obvious. > > >Consider the possibility that there are many of the Islamic faith >that are as tolerant of others as are many of the Christian and >Jewish faith. Consider the possibility that in certain portions of >the globe Islam has been hijacked by bigots in order to justify >their hatred of outsiders for which they don't understand, and as >such, fear. Consider the possibility that the efforts of these >bigots who hide under the banner of Islam have twisted the meaning >of this religion into convenient interpretations in order to justify >their hatred of outsiders - and as a way to sanction acts of >violence against outsiders. It is not all that different than what >goes on at a good old fashion god-fearing Christian KKK rally. If you ignore the Hebraic roots of Christianity you can twist the Bible into a pretzel and be able to justify the beliefs of groups like the KKK. I'm not responsible for their beliefs and actions. I visited the website of a pastor who claimed to be a Christian, but who hated those ---- Jews. I asked him if he had heard that Jesus and 11 of the 12 apostles were Jews, number 12 being a prostalite, a gentile convert to Judaism? I've yet to receive a reply. Most Jew haters are pagan, some just don't like to admit it. The worst person that you can lie to is yourself. BTW, the man who founded the KKK, was Albert Pike, a famous Free Mason, and Satanist. With respect to Islam. the webmaster of www.prophetofdoom.net , Craig Winn, and I are of the opinion that the Wahabis and other fundamentalist Islamists have the correct interpretation of the Qu'ran. I highly recommend Mr. Winn's book as a truthful look at the true nature of Islam. > >Mr. Sagan kept many areas of his private life secret from public >scrutiny during his life. For example, he used marijuana >extensively. I believe Carl supported the notion to get the >substance liberalized, particularly as a way to help alleviate the >suffering he experienced from bone cancer. But I digress here. I throughly enjoyed marijuana, but I came up with some really stupid ideas when stoned. If your scenario is correct, and Carl ignored the religious teachings of the hospice workers who ministered to him in his final days and died without accepting Yeshua as Lord and Savior, then he had even more stupid ideas than I did. I am a great believer in herbal medicine, and find the efforts of the American government to suppress it reprehensible. This week on C to C AM, there were numerous people whose symptoms have been relieved or ameliorated by the use of marijuana. The primary beneficiaries of this is the pharmaceutical industry, given what the Greek root of that name means, it adds credence to the Satanic Conspiracy Paradigm. > >It is best to let Mr. Sagan speak for himself such as on the top of >THEISM and ATHEISM: >questioning, courageous and open mind seems to be the essential tool >for narrowing the range of our collective ignorance on the subject >of the existence of God." > >-"The Amniotic Universe," Broca's Brain, p. 311." > >Hopefully, Mr. Sagan has answers to some of the questions he raised. Amen > > > has been reconvened after 1900 and some years. One of my rabbi's >> talks about this issue can be purchased at www.hatikva.org . >> > >And what happens after the temple is rebuilt? The sacrificial system is reinstituted. This will be stopped during the midpoint of the tribulation by the man commonly known as the Anti Christ. The existence of the Temple is necessary for there to be a Holy of Holies, in which he will sit down (only a king can do that), and declare himself to be god. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 18 10:53:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2IIr4ju013010; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:53:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2IIr0F1012938; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:53:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:53:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr89m$on861s mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,102,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="829691964:sNHT15347680" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: OT: The will of God Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:52:50 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Thomas, > From: thomas malloy ... > Not at all, we call our religion Messianic Judaism. > We keep Sabbath and the Levitical Festivals and do our > best to be Torah Observant. Thanks for the clarification. I can pretty much respect anyone who remain true to their own school. I only wish to add here that, IMHO, there are many schools that one can remain true to. ... > If you ignore the Hebraic roots of Christianity you can > twist the Bible into a pretzel and be able to justify the > beliefs of groups like the KKK. I'm not responsible for their > beliefs and actions. I visited the website of a pastor who > claimed to be a Christian, but who hated those ---- Jews. I > asked him if he had heard that Jesus and 11 of the 12 > apostles were Jews, number 12 being a prostalite, a > gentile convert to Judaism? I've yet to receive a reply. Most > Jew haters are pagan, some just don't like to admit it. The > worst person that you can lie to is yourself. BTW, the man > who founded the KKK, was Albert Pike, a famous Free Mason, > and Satanist. I've learned through our recent public OT vortex-l discussions that you are an exceedingly perceptive and intelligent. You appear to be well informed on a number of intellectual, philosophical, and scientific fronts. I've discovered that you possess a rich abundance of eclectic interests. In other words, You're SMART! But then you make a patently absurd statement like "Most Jew jaters are pagan, some just don't like to admit it." I repeat. Thomas, that is an absurd statement. What I find distressing is the realization that, based on our past conversations, I KNOW you are both intelligent and perceptive enough to realize how stupid making such a judgment call really is. I have pagans friends and acquaintances. I've known these "pagans" for decades. The "pagans" I've known over the years don't have the time or inclination to hate jews. On the other hand being "pagan" appears to have taught many of them the meaning behind to word "tolerance" since many of them have experienced first hand the bigotry of others, of how ignorant individuals in our society have unfortunately acquired the irrational belief that "pagans" must be performing all sorts of horrible secret rituals in their basements or garage, maybe even sacrifice a baby or two. It's been my observation that the pagans I've known over the years tend to spend their resources on being concerned about improving the condition of Gaia, the environment, and each other. > With respect to Islam. the webmaster of www.prophetofdoom.net, > Craig Winn, and I are of the opinion that the Wahabis and > other fundamentalist Islamists have the correct > interpretation of the Qu'ran. I highly recommend Mr. Winn's > book as a truthful look at the true nature of Islam. The "correct" interpretation? The writing of history, which includes the interpretation of religious text, tends to be rewritten by the victor. Such rewrites, however, don't make their version any more "truthful" than an myriad of interpretations held by the looser. ... > > I throughly enjoyed marijuana, but I came up with some > really stupid ideas when stoned. It was my experience that it seemed to take forever to cut a grapefruit when stoned. > If your scenario is correct, and Carl > ignored the religious teachings of the hospice workers > who ministered to him in his final days and died without > accepting Yeshua as Lord and Savior, then he had even > more stupid ideas than I did. IMHO, you are making judgment calls on the spiritual welfare of people you've never met when it would be wiser to simply focus on sweeping the floors of your own mansion. Some in our society would consider your judgment calls on the spiritual health of others exceedingly arrogant, and I can't say I would blame them. My father died last January after a long battle against cancer. During those last couple of months of my father's life I observed an increase in his desire to observe religious rituals. This is understandable as rituals, in my view, are meant to help us focus on the important issues, as well as give us comfort. My father was Episcopalian. One day his priest came to his bedside to give communion. I climbed in bed, sat next to my dad and shared in the ritual of communion. It was not because I'm Episcopalian (I'm not), but because I wanted to share in the ritual with my father. I especially appreciated the part where the priest asked my dad to give HIM communion. It brought home the fact that we are all the same and equal under one roof - just as Jesus performed the ritual of washing the feet of his disciples. I observed a number of thoughtful, caring, and highly perceptive hospice workers who came in to check in on the welfare of my father. They were all very good at listening to and administering to his needs. However, none of these hospice workers behaved in such an arrogant manner as to feel it was their duty or spiritual obligation to administer religious teachings to my father, to make sure he was "saved". The meanings behind most religious rituals including the act of saving the souls of loved ones are, IMHO, meant to help us focus on the important issues, to give us all comfort. Unfortunately, most of these rituals begin to lose their purpose when those administering the "sacred" act begin to believe that the ritual itself is more important than what the act was designed to address in the first place. The most important ritual I personally observed in regards to "saving" my father's soul as he negotiated his way to the after life was an impromptu act my brother performed when we took his body to the crematorium. Earlier in the day my brother took out an envelope and put five bucks in it. He discreetly slipped the envelope into our father's pant leg. Later, at the crematorium my brother took out a magic marker pen and wrote the following note on his casket: "Don't forget to tip the boatman - love Norm." My brother's action is the ritual I will remember till I die. It is the one that gives me comfort, the one that brought tears to my eyes. The ritual that my brother and I personally participated in to save the soul of my father would not necessarily work for others or even have any meaning. I'm cool with that. ... > > > >And what happens after the temple is rebuilt? > > The sacrificial system is reinstituted. This > will be stopped during the midpoint of the > tribulation by the man commonly known as the > Anti Christ. The existence of the Temple is > necessary for there to be a Holy of Holies, > in which he will sit down (only a king can do > that), and declare himself to be god. > > In other words, stay tuned. And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming. Regadrs, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 18 13:04:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2IL4Cd9013553; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:04:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2IL49sT013523; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:04:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:04:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Q0Fo33HkAgFqDdJErCQmrnYY2bM8lghWl8liehOh+pNrH8UTzZ4cdm6Kmn+dlE+4SVvhGEAO82sk09dfjsjHYjro9e1cytD0OgaxpvxTzkcOA64Zw7kRseoyLjjUc2fVqmhEr6YsQsWu7WDyUhFyfIram2Zr/+aZLuq6Pw42/d8= ; Message-ID: <20050318210357.51359.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:03:57 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: OT: The will of God To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3rr89m$on861s mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1007017681-1111179837=:50814" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1007017681-1111179837=:50814 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii While I was raised Baptist, I certainly am not now. AAMOF, I wasn't too sure what I was until I found: BELIEF-O-MATIC!!! Not sure about what religion you are? Then go to: http://www.beliefnet.com and take the 20 question test of the belief-o-matic (third bullet on the left). I am 100% neo-pagan. What a relief to know! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1007017681-1111179837=:50814 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
While I was raised Baptist, I certainly am not now.  AAMOF, I wasn't too sure what I was until I found:
 
BELIEF-O-MATIC!!!
 
Not sure about what religion you are?  Then go to:
 
 
and take the 20 question test of the belief-o-matic (third bullet on the left).  I am 100% neo-pagan.  What a relief to know!

 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1007017681-1111179837=:50814-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 18 13:54:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2ILsclN000544; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:54:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2ILsV5R000497; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:54:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:54:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: DNAger of nanotechnology Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 08:54:23 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2ILsTlN000426 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, The saving grace of nano-technology until now has been its inability to self-replicate. That may now no longer be true. http://www.physorg.com/news3438.html Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 18 13:59:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2ILxflN002577; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:59:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2ILxdNQ002548; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:59:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:59:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr89m$onnicb mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,103,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="830196107:sNHT16620848" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: Re: OT: The will of God Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:59:25 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8iLO9D.A.wn.K90OCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > While I was raised Baptist, I certainly am not now. > AAMOF, I wasn't too sure what I was until I found: > > BELIEF-O-MATIC!!! > > Not sure about what religion you are? Then go to: > > http://www.beliefnet.com > > and take the 20 question test of the belief-o-matic > (third bullet on the left). I am 100% neo-pagan. > What a relief to know! > What fun! I took the Belief-O-Matic test too. Same fate here. Thomas, if you're eavesdropping on this conversation I wish to assure you that I don't hate Jews. Actually, I think I may have been a rabbi in a former life. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part. No matter. As far as my personal perception of you: You fascinate me. You have taught me how differently other people can perceive the world around them. Thank you for enlightening me. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.Orionworks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 18 15:06:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2IN68lN031114; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:06:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2IN65qY031096; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:06:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:06:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006901c52c0e$d4e26be0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050318210357.51359.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: OT:The will of Valis Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:04:22 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" > I am 100% neo-pagan. What a relief to know! Then what you need, brother, is a clear message from on-high... VALIS by the former and current highness himself, Philip K. Dick, is a one of the most thought provoking pieces of Sci-fi in recent memory. (published in 1981, a year before his heart gave out from too many 'crosses', so to speak). At least, this is all what I have been told by one "Horselover Fat", a Vo-lurker and mystic who sometimes posts under other aliases. or else it was a Tulpa-projected homunculi, condensed out of the aether by a schizophrenic human mind no longer in bodily existence. Like all of PKDs works, which is to say.novels being so far ahead of their time so as not to even be aware of their own future literary importance (i.e. sloppily put together and in great need of reediting) this one is better appreciated when summarized, updated and put into modern parlance and iconicity. As expected, it fits right in there with the latest technology of Biblical coding and interpretation (i.e. revised translation to avoid stupid errors in the original, so as keep every word "true")... proving that PKD was probably the modern reincarnation of John the Baptist. Updated plot. A group of seeker's set out on a hermeneutical search in a magic bus, in pursuit of long-forbidden answers to the final-solution, which lead them - under the influence of the only CD they had in the bus at the time - to a former messianic rock musician's estate called Graceland, where they confront the reborn magister-ludi: now, a surprisingly eloquent two-year old prodigy named Sophia. She confirms their long-suppressed suspicion that an ancient so-called 'mechanical intelligence,' orbiting the earth for 5000 years, has been guiding not only their recent discoveries about not only where to find the best Bar-B-Que (memumphas), but the whole history of mankind for the past 2 1/2 millennia. And furthermore, that a long-prophesized 'quickening' is now unfolding across society. Sophia is a 'Knower' with the gift of reaching beyond borders, implying that we cannot discover divine rules without going outside the lines of obedience. That is, to reach beyond obedience, to take a chance by embracing paradox and the unknown, does not result in chaos or destruction, but in a sense this calculated act of respectful defiance defines what rules really matter. Sophia is holding a stick, but not just any stick (say hello to her little friend). The visual image of this stick hints at a caduceus, but with two snakes wound around. The symbolism going beyond the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden Of Eden, where a single snake lures a more naive-Eve (Sophia in a past life) to test once again those 'laws', the now no-longer-valis laws, by eating the of the once forbidden food - pigcicles (aka the knowledge that good and evil are often the same, and rigs are mighti-fine). The caduceus, once carried by Hermes but costing much less than his accouterments do nowadays, is a symbol of healing and divine knowledge, but in this sequel to the original (God's Little Acher) and with its two snakes, we now see the duality of good and evil united, i.e. the Messiah and Elvis. isn't that right, Rachel? More than a few post-modern new-agers, in moments of clarity, have noted the cross-comparisons between Jesus and Elvis. You know the sort of thing... Jesus came from a Land of Grace, while Elvis thrived in Graceland. Jesus rose from the dead and was seen by zillions of people all over the place (the Pentecost), while Elvis rose also and has been seen in zillions in Las Vegas, jumping out of airplanes even (that's a miracle that JC couldn't pull off) and in other lucky places - like the 7-11 (or the PennyCost). At least that is according to the Moo-Tao, the Gehqo-Qabbala-way. And speaking of Primordial Letters, and other such outrageous claims from the re-earthed Holy-cow files at the Skeptic Tank. not that there's anything wrong with "Outrageous Claims"... One thing worthy of note is that the Hebrew word for "Messiah" and the word for "Serpent" have the same Qabbalistic number attached to them... This means that the essence of each one is supposedly the same. When Christ is portrayed as Snake-On-A-Stick, as in much Middle Age Iconography: a serpent draped over the Cross we are accosted by this uncomfortable dualistic image. But herein is the dichotomy, SERPENT was EVIL, right... but that was a relative thing, right? Well, even muttersprachers can see that ELVIS and EVILS and VALIS have the almost same letter combinations (more than good enough for biblical translation and "coding" work, for sure) giving us the Hidden Mystical Message that Elvis is the bringer of life, as was Jesus. Could anything be more obvious? How anyone can deny that Elvis Presley was the Second Coming is beyond me, or thus spake Zarathustra. But wait! There's more! Now one of the real big things in Jewish Mysticism is the Tetra-grammaton, you know... the mysterious four-letter Name O' God, and a fair percentage of other nouns as well . YHVH (Yod, He, Vau, He). That's Yahweh, Jehovah, and a number of other things, yada-yada-yada, because the Jews of the time disdained 'vowel-movements' as part of the daily cleansing ritual. Now you add the letter Shin in the middle, you get YHShVH, which is Joshua or Yeheshuah, which got Romanized somehow into "Jesus" (also the name of at least half of the yard-men in the new Eden - on the left coast, as it were). It's so very symbolic, don't you see, of the Holy S_ _ _ _t (i.e. the letter 'Shin,' which looks like a 'little fire') being inserted into the material world both figuratively as well as literally. It's the adding of that one letter into the name says to all who will listen the spirit of the lord is being inserted into the world. So what about Elvis? Any letters being stuck in HIS name from somewhere else? Yup, you bet your fur, PETAphiles, just check THIS out... Elvis Aron Presley's middle name was assumed to be Aron (in case you hadn't guessed) but his Mom was a terrible speller. Now... get this: on his "Tombstone" it's spelled Aaron, with TWO A's... The insertion of an A. Now, in case you forgot that Sunday School lesson in 1954 (or Saturday School, as the case may be), The prophet Aaron, Moses' brother and spin-doctor, was the original Jewish snake-handling magister-Ludi. And in Exodus 7:11, Aaron pulled off some Holy-magic only to have Egyptian "Sorcerers" of the Pharaoh, who along with "wise men" and "magicians" duplicated Aaron's stick turning into a snake but Aaron's stick-turned-snake ate theirs... and demonstrated for all to see, the symbolic power of YHVH over Allah, good over evil, light over dark, west over east and all that great stuff for at least 3000 years... but the times, they are a changin', brother.... As Bobby Zimmerman liked to opine. and BTW our boy "A" was the spokesman for Moses, yes, who was a stuttered (Exodus 6:30; 7:1-2,9-10,19 aka the original 'mutterspracher'), not there's anything wrong with that. Although Moses was the supposed founder of modern Judaism, and probably a son of the previous Pharaoh and a Sabra-concubine (demonstrating the beginnings of the emerging duality of mid-East politics) it was Aaron who did the **actual speaking** to Pharaoh leading up to the events in Exodus, and the crossing of the Red Sea, etc etc. Had the Hebrews had a few more vowels, and had Aaron not gotten Moses' translation right back then, who knows how the USA could have later justified invading sovereign Arab countries. The Hebrew 'A' is an Aleph, which is the Tarot 'Pure Fool' or 'Aryan' and heaps of other mystical things, being first. in fact, identifies the return of the Sirian Illuminati as the proximate cause of Elvis's death. Elvis gave his life, as Jesus did, not so that we would be delivered from damnation or any such thing, but so that his mind, his software, could be dumped into the Sirian computer, you remember. the one called VALIS. . and get this.Valis was PUBLISHED THE YEAR AFTER ELVIS'S so-called "DEATH". As any Aryan-fool can clearly see, VALIS permutes into ALVIS, which is ELVIS with an A. This is another manifestation of the "Arrival of the letter A" phenomenon, the A-team and other Gnostic traditions. Are you ready for this. ;-) Elvis, according to his millions of disciples, may have actually been the new Messiah, yes the Second Coming, had not the trickster succeeded this time, by resorting to the evils of opiates and other assorted intoxicants to lure the pure heart into a false heaven - well, who knows? ... Elvis' earthly rapture serving to delay our spacecraft rendezvous (was Heaven's gate the premature Rendezvous with Rama?). Elvis might have been able to save us from the horsemen, the Days of Wrath, Cygnus-X and other assorted bad stuff - had not the trickster won this round. Drat. What do we do about it NOW? After all, now that Elvis is inside Valis along with much of the A-team, there must be something to be done to correct the injustice? Well, in fact there is. Consider: "Elvis" can also be permuted to Levis. Anyone wearing Levis Jeans belongs to the Neo-Tribe of Levis, as referred to in the Book Of Revelations, Gecko-Remix, which describes the Judgment that Elvis saved us from. By wearing these jeans, you express your gratitude to Elvis. And then there is the iPod, loaded smack full of old Elvis albums. This is the new sacrament, brother, jeans and iPods for Elvis, with a T-shirt that reads, "Erin, go braless" That concludes this post Paddy-day sermonette. Erin go bragh, Pastor Rod Flash ----Powerhouse Church of the Presumptuous Assumption of the Blinding Light (an IRA affiliate) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 18 17:09:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2J18slN020523; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:08:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2J18pme020510; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:08:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:08:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <83895472-fb16-4232-b93b-8efe9749e83f> Message-ID: <002e01c52c20$2e014d20$8a7bccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: DNAger of nanotechnology Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:08:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin wrote: > Hi, > > The saving grace of nano-technology until now has been its > inability to self-replicate. That may now no longer be true. > > http://www.physorg.com/news3438.html > But the self-replicating elements in the story are bacteria, which have been self-replicating for untold years. Nothing new. What is new is a method of coralling the little critters and sensing them individually and electrically. One migh learn a lot this way, but we do not have self-replicating nanobots --- yet. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 18 18:23:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2J2NhlN030831; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:23:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2J2NffP030814; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:23:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:23:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=U/kwbSmrxQnu4mFOQxGqdygWOYcixswhwfrjt4mCvMcBHhSm6LGlCWGZ12fTpdeI5bFJBd0pStAvqNbRG1NYNNeHOB/yQvnrfhb2u5L8AczNttAvT2y1vra86yCInoyRWipUyXqM70WO8sWZAJVJKxUWZIThr0F6tnX3nqS6Lgg= ; Message-ID: <20050319022333.34589.qmail web51709.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:23:33 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: OT: The will of God To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <_4UK6B.A.VhH.r04OCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- orionworks charter.net wrote: > Actually, I think I may have been a rabbi in a > former life. Yeah, my wife is a Messianic Jew and we have been together over 20 years. We *do* argue over her tithe thing . . . I say it's *after* taxes! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 18 18:52:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2J2q6lN009972; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:52:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2J2q4WD009949; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:52:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:52:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=sGmeKzcuh94cFeXjlAeW52mXs1AW/XElbSBf6rtwCjfKcxa2jFyTs/fofWBaqrWsNgyJ+9OOzPnuKbhXV3zf6RuIMIsxFj7FoY6DSB9K+5+eDSRWEKF7jUTbKmv82v2DP+v3Pbao8p4Hajl9uh0SjFWXfh4o0Qa47DORE61pXl8= ; Message-ID: <20050319025157.78518.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:51:57 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: OT:The will of Valis To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <006901c52c0e$d4e26be0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jones Beene wrote: > Then what you need, brother, is a clear message from > on-high... Pastor Rod, You must come visit our church as a guest lector: http://www.subgenius.com/ always broadcast on Radio Free Albemuth Praise Bob! (Subgenius Sarfatti also heard from Valis: http://www.qedcorp.com/pcr/pcr/parsifal.html ) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 18 19:08:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2J37xlN016196; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:07:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2J37vN6016171; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:07:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:07:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00b101c52c30$a18c3560$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050319025157.78518.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: OT:The will of Valis Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:06:22 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Praise Bob! > > (Subgenius Sarfatti also heard from Valis: > > http://www.qedcorp.com/pcr/pcr/parsifal.html ) Geeze, is he not more Full of S_ _ _ than a Christmas turkey? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 18 19:35:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2J3YelN031648; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:34:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2J3YZ1G031579; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:34:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:34:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <035c01c52c34$4200d700$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: Subject: 13 things that do not make sense Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:32:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Resent-Message-ID: <15OnSD.A.JtH.I35OCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: NEWSCIENTIST http://www1.youreletters.com/t/125953/1650219/678078/0/ 13 things that do not make sense 19 March 2005 NewScientist.com news service Michael Brooks #13 Cold fusion AFTER 16 years, it's back. In fact, cold fusion never really went away. Over a 10-year period from 1989, US navy labs ran more than 200 experiments to investigate whether nuclear reactions generating more energy than they consume - supposedly only possible inside stars - can occur at room temperature. Numerous researchers have since pronounced themselves believers. With controllable cold fusion, many of the world's energy problems would melt away: no wonder the US Department of Energy is interested. In December, after a lengthy review of the evidence, it said it was open to receiving proposals for new cold fusion experiments. That's quite a turnaround. The DoE's first report on the subject, published 15 years ago, concluded that the original cold fusion results, produced by Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons of the University of Utah and unveiled at a press conference in 1989, were impossible to reproduce, and thus probably false. The basic claim of cold fusion is that dunking palladium electrodes into heavy water - in which oxygen is combined with the hydrogen isotope deuterium - can release a large amount of energy. Placing a voltage across the electrodes supposedly allows deuterium nuclei to move into palladium's molecular lattice, enabling them to overcome their natural repulsion and fuse together, releasing a blast of energy. The snag is that fusion at room temperature is deemed impossible by every accepted scientific theory. "Cold fusion would make the world's energy problems melt away. No wonder the Department of Energy is interested" That doesn't matter, according to David Nagel, an engineer at George Washington University in Washington DC. Superconductors took 40 years to explain, he points out, so there's no reason to dismiss cold fusion. "The experimental case is bulletproof," he says. "You can't make it go away." >From issue 2491 of New Scientist magazine, 19 March 2005, page 30 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 19 08:39:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2JGd0gY007069; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 08:39:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2JGcoNu007031; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 08:38:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 08:38:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220053619163813700 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, March 18, 2005 Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 08:38:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8e65b60ff3919b80592e086c6b3fa79c5790fad917fc14d6b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.85.193 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki Date: 3/18/2005 12:04:42 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, March 18, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 18 Mar 05 Washington, DC 1. THE VISION: AEROSPACE ENGINEER PICKED TO LEAD NASA TO MARS. Described in media stories as a Johns Hopkins physicist, Michael D. Griffin is at the Applied Physics Lab, a government contract lab far from the campus, and although he has a B.A. in physics, his Ph.D. is in Aerospace Engineering from the Univ. of Maryland. During the Reagan years he was Deputy for Technology of SDI (Star Wars), which managed to squander $30B on mythical weapons. Eighteen months ago, Griffin testified before the House Science Committee on "The Future of Human Space Flight". He began by invoking Queen Isabella and Columbus. OK, so he's not very original, but the Columbus mission was to find a short cut to plunder the riches of the East. That is just the sort of sound conservative economics the universe needs. But maybe, before we settle the rest of the solar system as Griffin proposes, we might want to ask our robots if there are any riches out there to plunder. Meanwhile, it probably wouldn't hurt to take better care of this planet. These other places don't look that great. 2. FICTION: AN IMAGINATIVE CREATION THAT DOES NOT REPRESENT TRUTH The Index of Forbidden Books was abolished by Vatican II, but Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, who used to be the top enforcer in the Vatican, still harbors nostalgia for the old days. "Don't buy and don't read" The Da Vinci Code, he instructed Catholics. That should help sales, as though it needed help. Some scientists would put Michael Crichton's novel, State of Fear, on an Index. It's standard Crichton, i.e. the bad guys are scientists. In Jurassic Park, for example, scientists discovered the secret of life and used it to make a theme park. Scientists in State of Fear predict global-warming catastrophes; when it doesn't happen, they create disasters. Well, at least scientists are powerful bad guys. But Crichton laced the book with genuine citations and graphs from the literature, creating a sense of authenticity, but some say, crossing a line. It is pretentious, but it's fiction. 3. HYDROGEN: THE HINDENBURG DISASTER RETOLD AND RETOLD AGAIN. Everyone has seen the horrifying film of the 1937 Hindenburg disaster. A 1/28 scale model of the giant airship, made for a Hollywood movie, hangs in the National Air and Space Museum. A plaque said "It's hydrogen exploded." That's incendiary language to the National Hydrogen Society, which promotes hydrogen as a fuel. Dr. Addison Bain, a founding member, undertook his own investigation of the accident, declaring, "Hydrogen does not explode." He claimed it was the fabric covering the airship that burned. The Department of Energy bought it, the Air and Space Museum revised the plaque, the media did specials on it. Alex Dessler, a physicist and former director of the Marshall Space Flight Center did not buy it. He led a group that found Bain wrong on every point. So who is Dr. Addison Bain? Stay tuned. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 19 11:00:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2JIxvgY017718; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:59:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2JIxtGJ017694; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:59:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:59:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,104,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="676798522:sNHT41583072" From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Cc: Subject: My close encounter with Jack Sarfatti Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:59:26 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <00b101c52c30$a18c3560$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: Jones Beene > > Praise Bob! > > > > (Subgenius Sarfatti also heard from Valis: > > > > http://www.qedcorp.com/pcr/pcr/parsifal.html ) > > > > Geeze, is he not more Full of S_ _ _ than a Christmas > turkey? > The name of "Sarfatti" has been mentioned within the hallowed halls of Vortex-l. I can only presume this is in reference to the one and only: Jack Sarfatti. I feel inclined to share a little cyberspace adventure I had with Sarfatti back around 2002 - 2003. I've chosen to share the following private email transcripts because he claims to be a theoretical physicist and apparently has performed a lot of analysis on the topic of ZPE and other exotic alternative energies. It's possible some Vorts may wish to pursue his theoretical work more extensively. Sarfatti may very well be a genius in the fields of theoretical physics. I really don't know. Unfortunately, like many geniuses, his people skills leave something to be desired. One of my email addresses without my knowledge and/or specific intention found itself included in a mailing list that for all purposes --appeared-- to be managed by Jack Sarfatti. I started getting email from an address, "sarfatti well.com", which my Outlook s/w translated into the name of "Jack Sarfatti". There seemed to be a flame war going on between individuals I could have cared less about at the time. I wanted to be removed from the list and so, quite logically, I replied to the "FROM" address: sarfatti well.com. In the course of our occasionally colorful correspondence, Mr. Sarfatti claimed he wasn't responsible for maintaining the mailing list. However, the compiled evidence as revealed below would seem to suggest otherwise. For your pleasure, here's an abbreviated excerpt of the correspondence that transpired between myself and Sarfatti: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * My response Thursday, 11/14/2002 10:55 AM: "REMOVE MY EMAIL ADDRESS FROM THIS LIST IMMEDIATELY" * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Sarfatti's response, Thursday, 11/14/2002, 2002 11:54 AM: "Hey goofy do you see me using this list anymore? No! It was sent to me. I replied to it a few times - finito. Get the rod out of your arse." * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * My response Fri 11/15/2002 6:45 PM Mr. Sarfatti, In response to "Hey Goofy..." If you scroll down you will note that the "from" is from Jack Sarfatti Email: sarfatti well.com. There's a pretty long listing of "CCs" of which my email address svj orionworks.com is included. sarfatti@well.com is you, isn't it, and did you not send this yesterday, Thursday? So, yes, I DO see you having used this listing, and quite recently. Therefore, just in case you might feel motivated to make another mass mailing I ask you politely, please remove my email address from this email listing. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Sarfatti's response, Fri 11/15/2002 6:58 PM "bug off asshole. Do you see me using that list? No! You are the problem here." * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * My response, Fri 11/15/2002 8:25 PM Mr Sarfatti, In all your carefully worded responses to me I find it interesting that you have consistently deleted the evidence that shows the large "CC" listing (with my email address included) and who was responsible for generating that listing. You only seem to leave my own wording, carefully concealing yours. I got one of your mass emails almost a month ago, the first one with subject titled: "Stephen Schwartz & The Real Truth about UFO Black Ops". There have been several more since then including the latest one from you dated yesterday, Thursday. I gather you are a writer attempting to document important facts concerning UFOS, dark energy, the wonders of exotic science... Your command of the English language, the use of words like "Goofy" and "asshole" to describe me are, well... certainly colorful. Are all your publications written to evoke the same level of intelligence and scientific inquiry? I noticed Jacques F. Vallee did not seem to be particularly impressed. Once again, what follows is the email I received from you in its entirety including the "CC" listing, dated yesterday. The evidence that came into my email box shows that you were the individual responsible for sending it. If you weren't responsible for sending it feel free to explain why not. I don't think calling me "asshole" once again, however, will likely convince me. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Sarfatti's response: Fri 11/15/2002 9:13 PM Hey you small minded hack. You are on other people's lists that I am also on. I briefly replied to those lists and then stopped. So go fuck yourself. One can never convince an asshole that he is an asshole. I have no wish to cast my pearls before swine. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * My response, Sat 11/16/2002 6:02 PM Mr. Sarfatti, Do us both a favor and reveal the email address responsible for maintaining this listing. I'm guessing here... Is it someone by the name of Nick Herbert (quanta mail.cruzio.com) or Ron Pandolf pandolfi@zzapp.org, or webmaster rense.com, jeff@rense.com,or eotl@west.net. I don't know who any of these guys are. It's been my experience that repeatedly attempting to intimidate the intelligence of others with words like "goofy", "...small minded hack", and "asshole" will lose their virulence rather quickly - and backfire, sometimes quite spectacularly. I find it interesting that it seems to have been far more important for you to focus most of your energies on calling me naughty names or that I perform demeaning activities upon my body than to suggest the simplest of all solutions: Revealing WHICH email address is responsible for maintaining this listing. Why haven't you reveal this simple bit of information? It gives me the distinct impression that deep down, possibly on some subconscious level, you really AREN'T interested in terminating our email correspondence. Surely you're not that hard up for a little company. As for someone who claims to have stopped sending to this listing you apparently sent another one as late as last Thursday. For you to then tell me the very same day: "Hey goofy do you see me using this list anymore? No!" is misleading. You really are a physicist? Steve * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Sarfatti's response, Sat 11/16/2002 8:08 PM FRANKLY I DO NOT KNOW. IT'S NOT MY FRIEND RON PANDOLFI WHO IS A BIG HONCHO AT THE CIA. NOT A GOOD IDEA FOR YOU TO HARASS HIM ON THAT. TAKE MY ADVICE. YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT YOU ARE STEPPING INTO. All I know is that I received the open list initially and replied to all on it maybe a total of 3 times in a short time. I have not used it since for several days nor have I gotten anything from it. So let sleeping dogs lie. Capische? For all I know you are the hacker who started this. [in reply to me asking if Sarfatti really was a physicist] Yes, and you really are a shmuck. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * My response, Sat 11/16/2002 9:17 PM Mr. Sarfatti, Finally! The breakthrough that I was looking for! The reality of the situation is that you don't know who is responsible for maintaining this mysterious listing. I was under the mistaken assumption that you DID know since it didn't seem to stop you from advertising your books. Have you considered how such mercenary actions on your part tend to make you appear involved in the listing's maintenance? In any case I would assume you are as much in the dark as I as to how your own email address got on the list. Was it THAT difficult for you to just tell me you really didn't know? Degrading others in barrages of verbal abuse rather than simply setting the record straight does nothing more than drain your own psychic resources. You seem to be burning your bridges faster than anyone I have met in a long time. It's not a particularly good trait to cultivate if you're trying to get your books read by the public. Capische? Just in case you were serious, no I'm not the "hacker" who started this. Just like you, even... oh, what was that word you used to describe me... "shmucks" like me have better things to do with their lives! ;-) Despite what you might think I shall take your advice and "let sleeping dogs lie" on this matter for now. This concludes our correspondence. Thank you for your contributions. Have a nice day, Mr. Rogers! Steve * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Sarfatt's response (Apparently, he wasn't finished with me) Sat 11/16/2002 9:56 PM: Boy are you a Doophus. It's the American Way. You sound like a Commie to me. Of course I will advertise my books. I have not continued to use the list. It was an opportunity and I took it. Only a small minority of morons like you objected. My ideas are important to that group you dumb fuck! [In response to who may have put his email address on the list] Yes. It may be that infamous hacker Indrid Cold. Indeed, it may even be you jerking my chain. [In response to my thoughts on his book selling tactics] My books sell in the hundreds of thousands. It don't matter what a few doophuses think. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * At this point a lot of people on this mailing list were beginning to ask questions as well, wondering how their email addresses got on the list. Many were clamoring to get their addresses removed, to no avail. I continued receiving unwanted Sarfatti postings for months. I relegated them to a special "Sarfatti" drop, thinking maybe all this static noise might eventually come in handy at some future date. Finally, one frustrated individual named Jimmie L.Holman had the fortitude and brains to figure out how to take care of Sarfatti's unrelenting postings. Here's Jimmie's response to the mailing list. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * >From Jimmie L. Holman, Tue 1/14/2003 4:24 PM: I, like many others, am so disguested at Sarfatti's mindless and continued senseless attacks, I felt compelled to offer these suggestions. (knowing he is going to retaliate anyway) I have repeately, asked, requested, then later demanded to be removed from his "list" ... which I did NOT EVER subscribe to in the first place ... and now it appears his inability to handle even the simpelest of computer processes and civil requests, finds him unable or (apparently) unwilling to handle even that simple task of user removal or list management. I have even gone so far to privately instruct him to NEVER send me even a private email again. Apparently even that simple concept eludes his "self-alledged" logic and comprehension. I of course, like many others, have endured both personal and private attacks, sometimes even vulgar and insulting in content simply for asking to be removed.... and this is from someone I do not know (do not want to know) and from someone who definately does not know me (or my background or work). As an owner, of some 40-50 domains, numerous mailservers, numerous listservers, and all the equipment they reside on, and employing competent personel worldwide to administrate and manage as appropriate, ... I do have a relatively good understanding of some of the issues involved here, both in dealing with folks, and in dealing with other ISPs when inappropriate solicitations and abuse like Mr. Sarfatti's occur. It was only thru contacting Mr. Sarfatti's provider at that time via phone, and furnishing them with the obviously irrational posts was i able to recieve (apparently only temporary) relief. Although I am capable of shutting down and refusing ALL connections with my servers to/from PacBell and well.com, this really isnt a fair option to other PacBell or well.com users OR to my users/subscribers (although some of them have complained as well). I do intend to personally contact his current providers again today. Of course simple adding a personal filter to our mailservers is an option for many folks although that doesn't necessarily take care of the time needed to download often interfearing with more important and WANTED mail. Im my personal machines alone that amounts to almost 40 workstations.... and in some cases are making it thru to my cell phone and I'm having to pay for air time for this crap. There is very little doubt that what "Jack" seems to "envision" as a "discussion list" is nothing more that a bastardized use of "free speech" to attack others and promote his "book" (such that it is) which is almost always referenced in his "unsolicited emails". Because of his apparent unwillingness to remove individuals and the manner in which he attacks them whan they DO respectfully ask .....I would like to make the following suggestion. 1. STILL AGAIN ask to be removed from his "list" (save the emails ... you will probably need them) 2. Write or Call PacBell (toll free)1-866-722-3425 or 1-877-722-3755 and ask to speak to someone regarding an abuse issue email abuse pacbell.net 3. Write or Call Well.com (one of the addresses he uses San Francisco area) helpdesk well.com 415-645-9300 these people are already aware of problems with "Mr. Jack" 4. On any of the responsible mailing lists you are currently subscribed to, mention the problem at hand, and ask the current list administrator to make sure your email address is protected and not disclosed in their mailings. I think most of us realize that was how he got our addresses in the first place. (This is aparently where Mr. Sarfatti acquired at least some of our names) 5. As an "almost" last resort I might also recommend contacting Tim Jacobs administrative contact for 1stbooks firstbooks.com They have a numbers in Bloomington IN 812-339-6000 and 812-339-6554 they also have a toll free number but it may not be appropriate 1-888-519-5121 Im sure unders the circumstances, they do not appreciate their name being SPAMMED nor the image it is leaving for their "potential customers" on an otherwise "respectable" and excellent resource. 6. Lastly ... dont just "tollerate" this type of system abuse. Im sure most of us enjoy participating in responsible lists and utilize the content to gain a more thorough understanding of the topics and of the science. 7. Remember ...There ARE other "less than ethical" options and techniques available should he not cooperate and civil requests for removal not be honored. My experience and expectation with him is that he is so mentally disturbed that those requests will not be answered ... and predict he will surely even enter into still another of his tirades again ... i can almost promise it ;-)) There is one other possible solution, although not quite so immediate, and if this continues, I may contact some of you personally for possible legal action, both civil and criminal, against Mr. Sarfatti. (We already have more than enough evidence.) Additionally ... if requested and needed ... I will be happy to set up an automated system on one of my mail servers which will forward requests for removal and complaints directly to his multiple ISP mail administrators stating you have been unable to get these SPAMS/emails/attacks stopped and ask that they take "localized action". I am really hoping this will not be necessary. If we cant get removed from the list .... our only option may be to get the list or his resources removed. I am a firm believer in free speech ... however Mr. Sarfatti goes far beyond the restraints of good taste, manners, opinion and continually and in my opinion, is intentionally slanderous in nature. I doubt that any thinking life-form (with the exception of Mr. Sarfatti ... IF he qualifies) can not agree with that assessment. There is little doubt that "Jack" is not working with a "full deck" and we cannot apply logic to any dealings with this man. If i am "lucky" he will remove me BEFORE I have to deal with still another insulting public post. Please try some of the above recomendation. Best of luck to you all ! Jimmie Holman * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * After Jimmie's post I decided to send another request to the same email address (Sarfatti) asking to have my address removed: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * My message sent Tue 1/14/2003 7:06 PM Dear Mr. Sarfatti, I understand you may be trying to cull your mailing list. If so, could you check to see if the following email address is in your "BCC" listing: svj orionworks.com and if so, could you remove it? I end up trying to filter much of your email as I don't have the time to read it, plus I get tons of other messages that have a higher priority in my own on-line business dealings. It would appear that you may have more than one email address, and as such, I have not been completely successful in filtering out all your messages. Thank you for your time. Steve * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Sarfatti's response, Tue 1/14/2003 7:22 PM yes I deleted it. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * My email address was finally removed from the list server. I received no further public email postings from Jack Sarfatti. Coincidence? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 19 12:57:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2JKvZgY008561; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:57:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2JKvW37008543; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:57:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:57:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=t5K+OTMYQRo9q7n2pXqforDrGwiEUK2gvjqSHe/e7DHxyZw2X9jysmTFPPaMWdNfyAq9nrpiQyIBVF/tyjpWGVkfLyJLIDMqi4o9oTNW7Rt7m+fYWyCfcD8Bz/b7W3NHIyC1LoTreJEKfXZVn2mA/JyO9/kZmFJTJLoDNljEMrE= ; Message-ID: <20050319205722.38177.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:57:22 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: My close encounter with Jack Sarfatti To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: >snippage< > I can only presume this is in reference to > the one and only: Jack > Sarfatti. Yup > Sarfatti may very well be a genius in the fields of > theoretical physics. 'Subgenius' is the proper term, IMO. > Get the rod out of your arse." He is only slightly more polite to Puthoff, Ibsen, Penrose, Hameroff, etc. He kinda likes Bohm and Tony Smith. > So go fuck yourself. > One can never convince an asshole that he is an > asshole. I have no wish to > cast my pearls before swine. Pearl Onions, more like. > Ron Pandolf > pandolfi zzapp.org Ron Pandolfi ran the 'Weird Desk' at the CIA and is well known for his antagonism of Dan Smith, aka 'Chicken Little' of the Aviary. You *do* know about the Aviary, n'est-ce pas? Actually, I like Jack -- quite entertaining; but, I can make neither head nor hair of his "post-quantum mechanics" claims. Listen; but, do not interact. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 19 16:08:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2K08AgY011734; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:08:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2K086kS011701; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:08:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:08:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cygnet : was A Dash of Silver Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:07:52 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050318153311.76977.qmail web81105.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050318153311.76977.qmail web81105.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2K07wgY011610 Resent-Message-ID: <-Fpq-C.A.u2C.l7LPCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:33:11 -0800 (PST): Hi, [snip] >....this happeans all the time, except for the >"extreme" part. It is called spallation.... there are >definite QM limits as to how much energy can be >transfered to any one particle and it is way too >small. Usually after a neutron (of a few MeV) is >"boiled off" in spallation - then another but slightly >lower high energy gamma-ray is reemitted and this can >go on for many steps. This can be worked out in >Feynman diagrams and QED but it is nowhere close to >what is seen with the Cygnet. Ok, how about "spallation" at a more fundamental level, boiling quarks or mesons out of baryons? Since quarks are bound together in baryons by some force, and have mass of their own, the combination of mass and elastic force should result in an intrinsic fundamental vibration (rotation?) frequency. Perhaps gamma rays at that frequency can cause baryons to ring like bells, until they explode. The gamma rays from Cygnus may be particularly rich in the right frequency? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 19 22:33:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2K6X8Tj028683; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:33:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2K6X1CW028619; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:33:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:33:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050320063217.00683c7c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 06:32:17 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: An Equatorial Foucault Pendulum Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Foucault Pendulum is a fascinating thing. I suppose the best place to observe one is at the poles where the complete rotation can be seen. Indeed, in summer time at the north pole it would be even more weird since it would be turning in time with the sun. I'm sure the ancient egyptians who worshipped the sun could have made something out of that. I have always felt a bit sorry for people living on the equator since a Foucault Pendulum wont work there. Musing on their misfortune I came up with a pendulum which would. Namely, a compound pendulum of infinite effective length; what one might describe as an Equatorial Foucault Pendulum (EFP) As Vorts, doubtless, are well aware the effective length of a compound pendulum is given by the formula, L = I/(Md) Where L is effective length I is the moment of inertia about the pivot point M is the mass of the pendulum d is the distance between the body's centre of mass and the pivot point. Where d equals nought, L equals infinity. So if we have two very heavy balls at each end of a long lever arm which is pivoted exactly at the centre of mass then d = 0 and, effectively, we have a compound pendulum of infinite length. Now if we set up the EFP horizontally at the equator with the lever arm aligned in a east west direction, as the earth rotates the EFP should describe a vertical circular a rate of 15 degrees per hour. If the beam was released at sunrise the eastern ball would rise with the sun and follow it round the sky eventually setting as the sun set. One could paint the eastern ball gold and the western ball black. I'm sure the African witch doctors would love it and it would give a whole new meaning to the terms Golden Balls and blackball. I suppose if you made one big enough you could actually extract energy from it - at the expense of slowing down the earth a bit. Still, it would be a favour to all those born on the 29th of February to get rid of the leap year. One might even slow it down to the Babylonian 360 days, which would be rather neat. I can't see any snags to an EFP working in principle. Perhaps Horace can. ;-) Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 19 23:43:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2K7gY74019785; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:42:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2K7gT2s019747; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:42:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:42:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3rr89m$on861s mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <3rr89m$on861s mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 01:42:55 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OT: The will of God Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Johnson replied; >Hi Thomas, > > From: thomas malloy First of all, our world view is that there are two religious systems, Judeo Christian and everything else, which we call the pagan religions. Now that every thing else is a range of beliefs, what they all have in common is a disregard for the Bible. >I have pagans friends and acquaintances. I've known these "pagans" >for decades. The "pagans" I've known over the years don't have the >time or inclination to hate jews. I'm not saying that all pagans hate Jews, just that all Jew haters are pagans. Now there are some people who call themselves Christians and believe in Replacement Theology, the Christian Church has replaced Israel. At some level these people hate Jews. Then there are the Christians who take a liberal interpretation of theology, they question some or all of the following; the preexistance (divinity) of Yeshau, (Jesus) the virgin birth, the sinless life, the vicarious atonement, the physical resurrection, and the ascension. These people have taken over the main line protestant churches, and are the reason that people like me left. The leaders of the Presbertarian Church USA, recently called for an economic boycott of Israel, which IMHO, is tantamount to cursing them, see Genesis 12. The people who run the ELCA have decided that same sex relationship are not so bad, and have allowed people engaged in them to be pastors. This sort of sexual immorality of condemned as an abomination in both testaments. >On the other hand being "pagan" appears to have taught many of them >the meaning behind to word "tolerance" since many of them have >experienced first hand the bigotry of others, Then you have the leftists who call themselves liberals, they have little or no respect for Christianity, These Liberals are tolerant on some things, but when it comes to Christianity and the Christian roots of civilization they are totally intolerant. Witness the instructor at CU Bolder who was fired for assigning a reading assignment which talked about the Christian roots of our civilization. >of how ignorant individuals in our society have unfortunately >acquired the irrational belief that "pagans" must be performing all >sorts of horrible secret rituals in their basements or garage, maybe >even sacrifice a baby or two. The people who are sacrificing children are by in large Satanists, they give all pagans a bad name. > >It's been my observation that the pagans I've known over the years >tend to spend their resources on being concerned about improving the >condition of Gaia, the environment, and each other. The worshipers of Gaia worship the created rather than the creator. There are lots of people who believe themselves to be god, they are in for a rude awakening come the Judgment Day. > >> With respect to Islam. the webmaster of www.prophetofdoom.net, >> Craig Winn, and I are of the opinion that the Wahabis and >> other fundamentalist Islamists have the correct >> interpretation of the Qu'ran. I highly recommend Mr. Winn's >> book as a truthful look at the true nature of Islam. > >The "correct" interpretation? The writing of history, which includes >the interpretation of religious text, tends to be rewritten by the >victor. Such rewrites, however, don't make their version any more >"truthful" than an myriad of interpretations held by the looser. One of the fundamental tenets of Judeo Christianity is the resurrection of the dead and the Judgment Day. If you worship the G-d of Israel, you have a chance, if not, you're screwed. With respect to Craig Winn's scholarship, I would suggest that you read his book. This morning I listened to interview that was conducted by a local ministry with another scholar of Islam. He talked about how Islamists have infiltrated America. The interview will be available on the website, www.olivetreeviews.org next Friday. Both of these men's scholarship shows that Islam's intention is to take over the World. There's no interpretation necessary in order to understand that, or to understand what's coming. > > > I throughly enjoyed marijuana, but I came up with some >> really stupid ideas when stoned. > >It was my experience that it seemed to take forever to cut a >grapefruit when stoned. > >> If your scenario is correct, and Carl >> ignored the religious teachings of the hospice workers >> who ministered to him in his final days and died without >> accepting Yeshua as Lord and Savior, then he had even >> more stupid ideas than I did. > >IMHO, you are making judgment calls on the spiritual welfare of >people you've never met when it would be wiser to simply focus on >sweeping the floors of your own mansion. Some in our society would >consider your judgment calls on the spiritual health of others >exceedingly arrogant, and I can't say I would blame them. I listened to Carl's series programs, and he made it quite plain that he wasn't a Christian them. You're saying that he died unrepentant. I'm doing my duty to the G-d of Israel by pointing this out to you, it's not me who is judgmental, it's him. > >My father died last January after a long battle against cancer. >During those last couple of months of my father's life I observed an >increase in his desire to observe religious rituals. This is >understandable as rituals, in my view, are meant to help My condolences on the loss of your dad. >my father. I especially appreciated the part where the priest asked >my dad to give HIM communion. It brought home the fact that we are >all the same and equal under one roof - just as Jesus performed the >ritual of washing the feet of his disciples. The priest was doing his duty to G-d. > >I observed a number of thoughtful, caring, and highly perceptive >hospice workers who came in to check in on the welfare of my father. >They were all very good at listening to and administering to his >needs. However, none of these hospice workers behaved in such an >arrogant manner as to feel it was their duty or spiritual obligation >to administer religious teachings to my father, to make sure he was >"saved". It depends on whether you see it as your duty doesn't it. > >The meanings behind most religious rituals including the act of >saving the souls of loved ones are, IMHO, meant to help us focus on >the important issues, to give us all comfort. Unfortunately, most of >these rituals begin to lose their purpose when those administering >the "sacred" act begin to believe that the ritual itself is more >important than what the act was designed to address in the first >place. The ritual has nothing to do with salvation, which is contingent on your personal relationship with G-d. > >The ritual that my brother and I personally participated in to save >the soul of my father would not necessarily work for others or even >have any meaning. I'm cool with that. If you're relying on that for your salvation, you're heading for trouble > > > >> >And what happens after the temple is rebuilt? >> > > The sacrificial system is reinstituted. This > > >In other words, stay tuned. > >And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming. > Amen From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 19 23:46:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2K7kG74021408; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:46:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2K7kDOZ021367; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:46:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:46:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 01:45:28 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: plasmonic cover Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2K7k374021297 Resent-Message-ID: <3Q1ht.A.kNF.BpSPCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From the newsletter on the Minnesota Tesla Society Invisibility Shields Planned by Engineers In popular science fiction, the power of invisibility is readily apparent. Star Trek fans, for example, know that the devious Romulans could make their spaceships suddenly disappear. But is the idea really so implausible? Not according to new findings by scientists who say they have come up with a way to create cloaking device. Electronic engineers at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia are researching a device they say could make objects "nearly invisible to an observer." The contrivance works by preventing light from bouncing off the surface of an object, causing the object to appear so small it all but disappears. The concept was reported today by the science news Web site news nature.com. It says the proposed cloaking device would not require any peripheral attachments (such as antennas or computer networks) and would reduce visibility no matter what angle an object is viewed at. Sir John Pendry, a physicist at Imperial College, London, said the concept potentially holds several important applications "in stealth technology and camouflage." While types of invisibility shielding have been developed before, the phenomenon described by Andrea Alú and Nader Engheta sounds like something that might have been witnessed from the bridge of science fiction's starship Enterprise. The concept is based on a "plasmonic cover," which is a means to prevent light from scattering. (It is light bouncing off an object that makes it visible to an observer). The cover would stop light from scattering by resonating at the same frequency as the light striking it. If such a device could cope with different wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation (including visible light), in theory, the object would vanish into thin air. Alú and Engheta investigated experimental plasmonic covers that incorporated metals, such as gold and silver, to hide visible light. When light strikes a metallic material, waves of electrons, called plasmons, are generated. The engineers found that when the frequency of the light striking the material matched the frequency of the plasmons, the two frequencies act to cancel each other out. Under such conditions, the metallic object scattered only negligible amounts of light. The researchers' studies show that spherical and cylindrical objects coated with plasmonic shielding material produce very little light scattering. These objects, when hit by the right wavelength of light, were seen to become so small that they were almost invisible. The study is supported by the U.S. Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, which researches and develops cutting edge military technology. Some experts note, however, that cloaking devices that could enable military vehicles and aircraft, let alone spaceships, to become completely invisible to the enemy are likely to remain elusive for the foreseeable future. John Pendry, the Imperial College physicist, said that light-shielding covers would have to be customized to match the properties of each and every object they hide. It would be still more difficult to devise shields that could cope with all wavelengths of the visible spectrum—from red to violet light—and not just a single color. Types of invisibility shielding previously proposed by scientists depend on advanced camouflage systems, rather than objects being made to look undetectably tiny. Such systems involve light sensors that create a mirror image of the background scene on the concealed object. Source: National Geographic http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/02/0228_050228_invisibility.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 20 01:53:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2K9qfRj031084; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 01:52:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2K9qdqV031059; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 01:52:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 01:52:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050320095153.0068fe30 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 09:51:53 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: An Equatorial Foucault Pendulum Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:32 am 20-03-05 +0000, you wrote: >The Foucault Pendulum is a fascinating thing. >I suppose the best place to observe one is at >the poles where the complete rotation can be >seen. Indeed, in summer time at the north pole >it would be even more weird since it would be >turning in time with the sun. I'm sure the >ancient egyptians who worshipped the sun could >have made something out of that. > >I have always felt a bit sorry for people >living on the equator since a Foucault Pendulum >wont work there. Musing on their misfortune I >came up with a pendulum which would. Namely, >a compound pendulum of infinite effective >length; what one might describe as an Equatorial >Foucault Pendulum (EFP) > >As Vorts, doubtless, are well aware the effective >length of a compound pendulum is given by the >formula, > > L = I/(Md) > >Where L is effective length > I is the moment of inertia about > the pivot point > M is the mass of the pendulum > d is the distance between the body's > centre of mass and the pivot point. > >Where d equals nought, L equals infinity. > >So if we have two very heavy balls at each end >of a long lever arm which is pivoted exactly >at the centre of mass then d = 0 and, effectively, >we have a compound pendulum of infinite length. > >Now if we set up the EFP horizontally at the >equator with the lever arm aligned in a east >west direction, as the earth rotates the EFP >should describe a vertical circular a rate >of 15 degrees per hour. > >If the beam was released at sunrise the eastern >ball would rise with the sun and follow it round >the sky eventually setting as the sun set. One >could paint the eastern ball gold and the western >ball black. I'm sure the African witch doctors >would love it and it would give a whole new meaning >to the terms Golden Balls and blackball. > >I suppose if you made one big enough you could >actually extract energy from it - at the expense >of slowing down the earth a bit. Still, it would >be a favour to all those born on the 29th of >February to get rid of the leap year. One might >even slow it down to the Babylonian 360 days, >which would be rather neat. > >I can't see any snags to an EFP working in principle. >Perhaps Horace can. ;-) > >Cheers > >Frank Grimer > Of course, the only problem is that when you initially set the EFP up in the first place, it would already have the same rotational spin as the earth and one would have to give it a shove to eliminate this rotation relative to the fixed stars - which would rather defeat the object of the exercise. 8-( Back to the drawing board. ;-) Since the first suggestion was a lot of balls given too much latitude I think we should hammer them into a disk and spin it at high speed longitude-wise We can still use our gold leaf to paint a face on a false front hiding the interior spinning disk and black paint for hair on a false black. That should provide some powerful voodoo for the natives. We could call the little yellow idol, Sunny Jim, after a brand of cornflakes I remember before they disappeared in WWII. I wonder if they ever came back again. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 20 02:06:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2KA6LRj003863; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:06:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2KA6JQG003842; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:06:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:06:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050320100538.006ac020 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:05:38 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: plasmonic cover Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:45 am 20-03-05 -0600, you wrote: >From the newsletter on the Minnesota Tesla Society > > > Invisibility Shields Planned by Engineers >The concept is based on a "plasmonic cover," which is a means to prevent >light from scattering. (It is light bouncing off an >object that makes it visible to an observer). > But surely, you can stop the light "bouncing" by painting the object matt black and absorbing the light. But a black object is visible to an observer assuming the background is illuminated. Am I missing something? Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 20 06:18:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2KEHmRj003877; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 06:17:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2KEHKGF003601; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 06:17:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 06:17:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001201c52d57$7ea67510$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: plasmonic cover Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:16:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C52D25.1B094780"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C52D25.1B094780 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C52D25.1B094780" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C52D25.1B094780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankTo defeat a socalled plasmonic cover would require a simple light = source. So ( tongue in cheek).. the smiley face on the disc pendulating across = the sky would be visible to the politically correct crowd which in turn = would scream the sky is falling, while in turn the incorrect crowd can = state ..Enron? what Enron..I don't need no stinking badge. Morale of the = scientific experiment: never try to do blackface comedy. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C52D25.1B094780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank

To defeat a socalled plasmonic cover would require a simple light=20 source.
 
So ( tongue in cheek).. the smiley face on the disc pendulating = across the=20 sky would be visible to the politically correct crowd which in turn = would scream=20 the sky is falling, while in turn the incorrect crowd can state ..Enron? = what=20 Enron..I don't need no stinking badge. Morale of the scientific = experiment:=20 never try to do blackface comedy.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C52D25.1B094780-- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C52D25.1B094780 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000d01c52d57$659a8fc0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C52D25.1B094780-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 20 06:36:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2KEamRj010890; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 06:36:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2KEalXf010874; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 06:36:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 06:36:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 05:37:39 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: plasmonic cover Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 1:05 AM 3/20/5, Grimer wrote: >But a black object is visible to an observer assuming the background >is illuminated. > >Am I missing something? The night sky background is nearly black if the source of the illumination is radar or lidar. Both types of device conveniently tend to operate at a specific frequency. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 20 07:06:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2KF5kRj021524; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:05:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2KF5U9Q021419; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:05:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:05:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 06:06:08 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: An Equatorial Foucault Pendulum Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:51 AM 3/20/5, Grimer wrote: >At 06:32 am 20-03-05 +0000, you wrote: >>The Foucault Pendulum is a fascinating thing. >>I suppose the best place to observe one is at >>the poles where the complete rotation can be >>seen. Indeed, in summer time at the north pole >>it would be even more weird since it would be >>turning in time with the sun. Actually it would be turning in sidereal time, maintaining fixed relationship with the stars. [snip] >Back to the drawing board. ;-) [snip] A gyroscope very well gimballed in all axes and oriented in the equatorial plane should work (though not as a pendulum). A nifty thing about that in the old days is it could have replaced an accurate clock as the means of determining longitude. A good gyro, combined with an accurate lunar ephemieris to be used for periodic gyro calibration, could have been used to achieve fairly accurate navigation and mapping. The technological problems then "merely" consist of achieving frictionless bearings and a nearly perfect vacuum. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 20 10:06:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2KI6VRj002573; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:06:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2KI6Rur002552; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:06:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:06:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr9ri$pff0sl mxip18a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,105,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="855081877:sNHT12574256" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: OT: The will of God Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:06:19 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: thomas malloy Hi Thomas, > I listened to Carl's series programs, and he made it quite > plain that he wasn't a Christian them. You're saying that > he died unrepentant. I'm doing my duty to the G-d of Israel > by pointing this out to you, it's not me who is judgmental, > it's him. Really? ... > >My father died last January after a long battle against > >cancer. During those last couple of months of my father's > >life I observed an increase in his desire to observe > > religious rituals. This is understandable as rituals, > >in my view, are meant to help > > My condolences on the loss of your dad. Thank you, Thomas. ... > The ritual has nothing to do with salvation, which is > contingent on your personal relationship with G-d. I agree. > >The ritual that my brother and I personally participated > >in to save the soul of my father would not necessarily > >work for others or even have any meaning. I'm cool with that. > > If you're relying on that for your salvation, you're > heading for trouble Yes, my brother should have put ten bucks in my dad's pant leg instead of five. I'm sure the rates have gone up. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.orionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 20 10:30:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2KIUHRj011539; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:30:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2KIUF9Q011519; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:30:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:30:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050320182929.0068165c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:29:29 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: An Equatorial Foucault Pendulum Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:06 am 20-03-05 -0900, Horace wrote: > Actually it would be turning in sidereal time, maintaining fixed > relationship with the stars. Quite so. But why let an inconvenient mismatch get in the way of a good story. 8^) > A gyroscope very well gimballed in all axes and oriented in the equatorial > plane should work (though not as a pendulum). A nifty thing about that in > the old days is it could have replaced an accurate clock as the means of > determining longitude. A good gyro, combined with an accurate lunar > ephemieris... A case of two eyes being better than one, eh. > ...to be used for periodic gyro calibration, could have been used > to achieve fairly accurate navigation and mapping. The technological > problems then "merely" consist of achieving frictionless bearings and a > nearly perfect vacuum. That would have really taxed Harrison's workmanship; and talking of lunar thingees, it is interesting that the moon is now acting as a slow pendulum with respect to the earth. Is this because its centre of mass and its centre of gravity with respect to the earth are different and so the compound pendulum has an effective length less than infinity - or is it because the moon is lopsided in some way or other. Cheers Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 20 10:57:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2KIvIRj022755; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:57:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2KIvFE0022726; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:57:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:57:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050320185634.00694e98 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:56:34 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: plasmonic cover Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2KIvDRj022705 Resent-Message-ID: <9rGglC.A.-iF.KecPCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:37 am 20-03-05 -0900, Horace wrote: > The night sky background is nearly black > if the source of the illumination is > radar or lidar. Both types of device > conveniently tend to operate at a > specific frequency. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner All this talk of camouflage takes me back to my schooldays and our set book for school certificate which was "the Scottish play". Act V, Scene 3 In a room in the castle of Dunsinane: Macbeth tells the doctor that he is not afraid of an invasion, because of the witches´ prediction that the woods must march before he is defeated. ---------------------------------------------- Scene 4 In the country near Birnam Wood: Malcolm, Macduff and their army are ready to invade Macbeth´s castle. Malcolm tells his men to camouflage themselves with branches from the trees in the forest. "Let every soldier hew him down a bough And bear't before him; thereby shall we shadow The numbers of our host and make discovery Err in report of us." ---------------------------------------------- Break a leg. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 20 17:17:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2L1HNRj020777; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:17:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2L1HLBB020743; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:17:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:17:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: "Mark Jordan" Organization: attached To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:17:06 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: plasmonic cover Message-ID: <423DF662.32228.60B34C5 localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.21c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Authenticated-Sender: enki cpovo.net X-Spam-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:19:47 -0300 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 200.203.33.192 X-Return-Path: enkitec yahoo.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-MDAV-Processed: teta.cpovo.net, Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:19:50 -0300 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 20 Mar 2005 at 1:45, thomas malloy wrote: > > The cover would stop light from scattering by resonating at the same > frequency as the light striking it. If such a device could > cope with different wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation (including > visible light), in theory, the object would vanish into thin air. Sure. But what happens with the object's shadow? Mark Jordan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 20 19:10:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2L3A6NR029713; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:10:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2L3A4kQ029693; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:10:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:10:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c52dc3$74d16600$20027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Something to think about Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:09:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C52D91.29B20E90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C52D91.29B20E90 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0005_01C52D91.29B20E90" ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C52D91.29B20E90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankMathematics to think about http://www.rense.com/general46/stan1.html Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C52D91.29B20E90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Mathematics to think about

 http://www.rense.com/g= eneral46/stan1.html

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C52D91.29B20E90-- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C52D91.29B20E90 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000301c52dc3$743d3c50$20027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C52D91.29B20E90-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 20 23:16:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2L7Gc6h018795; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:16:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2L7Gah5018772; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:16:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:16:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050321071552.006a1ba8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:15:52 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: plasmonic cover Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:17 pm 20-03-05 -0300, you wrote: >On 20 Mar 2005 at 1:45, thomas malloy wrote: >> The cover would stop light from scattering by resonating at the same >> frequency as the light striking it. If such a device could >> cope with different wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation (including >> visible light), in theory, the object would vanish into thin air. > > Sure. But what happens with the object's shadow? > > Mark Jordan What indeed. Presumably one would see a black hole moving across the sky against a starry background. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 21 08:07:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2LG70h5012990; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:07:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2LG6qlM012904; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:06:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:06:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005901c52e2e$7ea2d0e0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: How myths are made Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:56:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0056_01C52DEB.700A12C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C52DEB.700A12C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How myths are made: 1) Throw in some facts, actual names and real locations=20 2) Appeal to "con-pru" interests 3) Be deliberately vague, but artful 4) Intimate that "mind control" may be involved 5) Practice good journalism and... Grin http://www.texfiles.com/features/jupiter.htm conspiracy theory, n. A theory seeking to explain a disputed case or = matter as a plot by a secret group or alliance rather than an isolated = act. prurient, adj. Characterized by an inordinate interest in sex:=20 con-pru, adj. (new portmanteau word) Characterized by chronic paranoia = plus an inordinate interest in high-level conspiracy (CIA, Illuminati, = UFO or NWO) Prime example: http://educate-yourself.org/nwo/ ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C52DEB.700A12C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
How myths are made:
 
1) Throw in some facts, actual names and real = locations 
2) Appeal to "con-pru" interests
3) Be deliberately vague, but artful
4) Intimate that "mind control" may be involved
5) Practice good journalism and... Grin
 
http://www.texfiles= .com/features/jupiter.htm
 
 
conspiracy theory, n.  A theory seeking to explain a disputed = case or=20 matter as a plot by a secret group or alliance rather than an isolated=20 act.
 
prurient, adj. Characterized by an inordinate interest in sex: =
 
con-pru, adj. (new portmanteau word) Characterized by chronic = paranoia plus=20 an inordinate interest in high-level conspiracy (CIA, Illuminati, UFO or = NWO)
 
Prime example:
http://educate-yourself.org/nwo= /
------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C52DEB.700A12C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 21 08:21:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2LGLlh5019475; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:21:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2LGLjJf019451; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:21:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:21:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:22:34 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: An Equatorial Foucault Pendulum Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58577 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:29 AM 3/20/5, Grimer wrote: >At 06:06 am 20-03-05 -0900, Horace wrote: > >> Actually it would be turning in sidereal time, maintaining fixed >> relationship with the stars. > > >Quite so. But why let an inconvenient mismatch get in the way of a >good story. 8^) > > >> A gyroscope very well gimballed in all axes and oriented in the equatorial >> plane should work (though not as a pendulum). A nifty thing about that in >> the old days is it could have replaced an accurate clock as the means of >> determining longitude. A good gyro, combined with an accurate lunar >> ephemieris... > > >A case of two eyes being better than one, eh. Yes, it's handy to be able to have even one bad eye open when the other is obscured. > > >> ...to be used for periodic gyro calibration, could have been used >> to achieve fairly accurate navigation and mapping. The technological >> problems then "merely" consist of achieving frictionless bearings and a >> nearly perfect vacuum. > > >That would have really taxed Harrison's workmanship; Yes indeed! I have a copy of *Longitude*, by Dava Sobel, the saga of John Harrison and his clock, and it is a real comfort at times when the inevitable depression comes from continually attempting and failing at diffcult or impossible things. >and talking of lunar >thingees, it is interesting that the moon is now acting as a slow >pendulum with respect to the earth. I am not aware of this pendulum phenomenon. The moon does have librations, but these are not really pendulum effects, but rather periodic perspective changes that occur due to ordinary orbital motions. Do you have specifics or a reference? >Is this because its centre of mass >and its centre of gravity with respect to the earth are different and >so the compound pendulum has an effective length less than infinity - >or is it because the moon is lopsided in some way or other. There may be alternative explanations, but it would be best to know exactly what and how big the "pendulum" effects are to which you refer. Very minor perterbations in the moon's orbit could occur due to magma shifts in the earth, which are probably now occuring because a pole shift is in progress. If multiple fast spinning and precessing black holes were in the vicinity, then the gravimagnetic theory predicts the gravimagnetic field of such could cause oscillating changes in the precession of the moon's (and earth's) axis, but that is an unlikely thing to occur, and it would show up in the measurments of the earth's polar orientation, which are made regularly. Also, the effects of the gravitational field itself would probably be observed long before the gravimagnetic effects, though I suppose we might be getting slow gravimagnetic waves from some great black hole event somewhere in the galaxy. Just some idle speculation. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 21 08:25:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2LGOoh5020815; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:24:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2LGOlAC020795; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:24:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:24:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006201c52e32$438ec640$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Subject: Arctic methane Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:23:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005F_01C52DEF.34A21BC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58578 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C52DEF.34A21BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the category of really-big potential problems.... The most serious problem facing the world today, and for the next twenty = years (in the minds of many environmental experts) - a situation more = risky than terrorism, suitcase nukes, new strains of super-viruses, = drought or famine-- gets almost zero press-coverage and is generally = ignored by government (which is press-driven, let's face it). This = gigantic looming problem is the "runaway" (chain reaction) release of = arctic methane.=20 Yawn...pretty dull reading, no?=20 Perhaps Hollywood could figure out how to make this problem more = dramatic and open some eyes, with some kind of major-catastrophe film? = Geeze... they have dramatized rogue meteors, tidal waves, giant insects, = body-snatchers and everything else... why not focus on a real-threat for = a change. I hope our California "gubernator," who is probably the last = real action hero available, learns about this situation and appreciates = this as his golden opportunity. This summer or next could herald the first well-documented instance of = asphyxiation in low-lying Arctic parts of Canada or Alaska, according to = some experts. That happenstance might actually be a good thing... in the = sense of removing some "blinders," so to speak, from the nay-sayers at = DoE. Especially, if such an incident should be observed by the human = oil-crews which will be exploring in the ANWR. They do not need to = explore very far up there - in fact, bringing a few black tarps along = should be sufficient to capture lots of methane gas on a sunny day. Arctic tundra is a gigantic source of near-surface methane, but is not = amenable to normal methods of capture (i.e. well-drilling) as it is = dilute and spread over large areas of land and unpressurized. When the = tundra thaws, the methane normally is released slowly though the porous = soil and stays near the ground for a while. Whole herds of arctic = wildlife, grazing in low areas, will be at risk of dying from = asphyxiation, should this happens in what is called a "burp" - a sudden = release - which might be due to a combination of strong solar heating, = calm weather and local greenhouse heat retention... which process = becomes self-reinforcing due to the local greenhouse effect. There are = rumors of this "burp" phenomenon having occurred in Siberia... but that = report could have been related to Stolichnaya, one way or another, who = knows... Methane is a colorless, odorless gas with a wide distribution in nature. = In the arctic it is due to the anaerobic bacterial decomposition of = plant matter, layer upon layer for millennia. Methane is slightly less = dense than air. It boils at minus 164=B0C but when frozen in a = water-soil matrix (tundra), it is immobile at higher temperature until = the ice liquefies. Methane is combustible at about a minimum of 5 = percent in air, which seldom happens when it is released in a thaw. Even = though not toxic when inhaled, it can produce suffocation by reducing = the concentration of available oxygen.=20 Consequently, in looking at the "big picture" the experts say that = something must be done relatively soon about this problem in the Arctic, = as the tundra is already starting to thaw in too many places for it to = be anything less than a persistent trend. On vortex, we have an Alaskan = poster - Horace Heffner- who can vouch for that unusual level of thawing = and melting of glaciers, first hand. There is at least 400 gigatons of methane locked in the frozen arctic = tundra in Siberia, Canada, Alaska etc. - enough to start this = devastating chain-reaction on a global scale - If the "runaway" scenario = of local warming then spreads uncontrollably across the northern = hemisphere in the late summer. Computer predictions suggest this will = happen within 20 years. This high figure of frozen methane tonnage does not include the = off-shore clathrates, which are also a huge threat, although less = subject to a "runaway" but more subject to such things as earthquake or = undersea landslide. Fortunately the oceans do not sustain a great local = variation in temperature, as do land masses. BTW for comparison, the = consumption of energy of all types, worldwide, is about 20 gigatons = equivalent, so even if only a percentage of the arctic methane is = recoverable, it can help substantially on the supply-end, in addition to = reducing the risk of a "runaway." There is even speculation that the last ice age, which ended about = ~15,000 years ago, and ended rather abruptly as those things go, was = triggered as the result of runaway methane release in places like the = American great plains and Russian steppes, which had been the more = southerly extreme of tundra, prior to that time frame. Here is a fairly = balanced analysis, as not everyone agrees as to the details: http://www.gl.rhbnc.ac.uk/staff/pdf/SuddenMethaneLGM.pdf. There are some solutions to this problem of diluted but wide-spread = methane release which do not depend on huge breakthroughs in technology = - just a large coordinated commitment of resources (less that the Iraq = invasion, however). In fact, we are already doing something quite = similar in the USA and Europe - in, of all places, **garbage land-fill = sites.** Given that methane is about 20 times more potent as a greenhouse gas = than is CO2, it is even better (albeit wasteful) to burn it in-place, = rather than to let it disperse into the atmosphere, where it so much = more of a problem. Plus given that we have a partial answer to CO2 = removal (also expensive) in the ability to "seed" ocean plankton with = mineral "fertilizers" so that they will remove far more CO2 than normal, = then it makes double-sense to capture the arctic methane, convert it on = the spot to methanol, and then use that as a fuel instead of OPEC oil... = and then at the same time, begin to seed the oceans as best we can, in = order to mitigate carbon. ... or else, invent a robust LENR or ZPE-conversion device...which is of = course far more satisfactory, and the reason that most of us read this = news-group anyway. But as a last resort, simply burning arctic methane in place, in order = to keep it out of the atmosphere (by substituting CO2 for CH4) is the = final sad but viable option, the lesser of the two evils - and = unnecessary if we act quickly to do something much saner. Saner means = sooner. If we wait too long, this option is gone. There is stop-gap proto-technology that can help and avoid the necessity = of burning-in-place, when artic tundra starts to thaw. The technology = can "accelerate" the thaw - but only where it is needed so as to release = and capture the methane for shipment to where it can be used (by = freezing, piping... or else, converting the methane into methanol for = bulk shipment). This process could cost significantly more than normal = drilling, so it demands governmental involvement and risk sharing. = However, if robotics can be used, then the arctic tundra methane may = cost no more than off-shore deep drilling.=20 Because it will involve "moving" a transportable, wide-area "tenting" = structure from place to place, robotics could reduce labor costs in = areas where there isn't much of a labor pool anyway. One can imagine = thousands of acres of "black tarps" with built-in tubing, laid out for a = few days over an area, and then moved to a new site robotically, this = going-on all summer long. It makes a lot of sense to have some kind of = "tenting" technology fully researched and ready to be employed to = capture this methane and use it as fuel, even if at higher cost, and = even if that process does increase the CO2 load, as there is that 20-1 = ratio which favors this - as a last resort to letting the methane mix in = the atmosphere. Plus, by the time we start doing this on a large scale, = the cost of the arctic methane (methanol) may not look so bad in = comparison to normal off-shore and foreign sources. And there is = certainly plenty of it up there and plenty of flat land amenable to this = technique.=20 This company has a sled-mounted solution to capturing methane, which = they developed for land-fills, which is not all that different. http://www.cryofuelsystems.com/CorpBasics/CorporateBasics.htm I think converting methane to methanol makes more sense, and that "could = be" a simpler process than the current method - steam-reforming, which = is wasteful and requires a factory-sized plant. Many hydrocarbon experts = think this is doable with the proper infusion of R&D, such as this = project: http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/atp2004/00-00-7040_factsheet= .htm which asks for a $2 million pittance. Would a hundred times that much = give us an answer within a year? Then let's do it? Make it into a prize = with a $25 million bounty. That is how critical the problem is, so why = are we having to beg for a few million for these critical projects? (not = to mention LENR!). We gladly offer this much of a bounty for the head of = a few cave-dwelling terrorists, why not get some real value for out = bucks? (and eliminate on of the motivations for terrorism) Bottom line - if a quick and easy process: methane --> methanol can be = pulled off at low pressure and temperature with catalysts, then a mini = factory could be truck-mounted for 'in situ' use in the arctic (and on = every large livestock farm in the world). Almost anything we can do is = better than letting methane escape into the atmosphere. This is why = burning it in oil refineries is better than letting it escape. But why = has our DoE failed to prioritized this need already and failed to = realize that we MUST have the technology for catalytic methane --> = methanol process... like YESTERDAY ? Their own experts at NREL agree = that it is feasible, doable and just a matter of resource allocation. I can envision a scenario where large solar (i.e. black-colored) tarps = are held in place at the corners over several acres at a time, and = periodically drug from place-to-place by robotically operated trucks... = and the methane is collected under the tarps by built-in partial vacuum = ductwork (designed by you-know-who), and converted to methanol, on the = spot in those same trucks (some of it used to fuel the machinery) and = then the rest piped southward in temporary pipelines (or even pumped = into underground wells). Expensive, sure, but it beats the heck out of having our costal cities = flooded in 20 years. How much is Manhattan real estate worth these days? = Let's just say that a 2% per year temporary tax on costal real estate = would easily pay for this, and probably give us enough methanol to = eliminate the need for OPEC to boot. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C52DEF.34A21BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In the category of really-big potential problems....
 
The most serious problem facing the world today, and for the next = twenty=20 years (in the minds of many environmental experts) - a = situation more=20 risky than terrorism, suitcase nukes, new strains of super-viruses, = drought or=20 famine-- gets almost zero press-coverage and is generally ignored by = government=20 (which is press-driven, let's face it). This gigantic looming=20 problem is the "runaway" (chain reaction) release of arctic = methane.
 
Yawn...pretty dull reading, no?
 
Perhaps Hollywood could figure out how to make this = problem more=20 dramatic and open some eyes, with some kind of major-catastrophe film? = Geeze...=20 they have dramatized rogue meteors, tidal waves, giant insects,=20 body-snatchers and everything else... why not focus on a = real-threat for a=20 change. I hope our California "gubernator," who is probably the = last real=20 action hero available, learns about this situation and appreciates = this as=20 his golden opportunity.
 
This summer or next could herald the first well-documented instance = of=20 asphyxiation in low-lying Arctic parts of Canada or Alaska, according to = some=20 experts. That happenstance might actually be a good thing... in the = sense=20 of removing some "blinders," so to speak, from the nay-sayers at DoE.=20 Especially, if such an incident should be observed by the human = oil-crews which=20 will be exploring in the ANWR. They do not need to explore very far up = there -=20 in fact, bringing a few black tarps along should be sufficient to = capture=20 lots of methane gas on a sunny day.
 
Arctic tundra is a gigantic source of near-surface methane, but is = not=20 amenable to normal methods of capture (i.e. well-drilling) as it is = dilute and=20 spread over large areas of land and unpressurized. When the tundra = thaws, the=20 methane normally is released slowly though the porous soil and stays = near the=20 ground for a while. Whole herds of arctic wildlife, grazing in low=20 areas, will be at risk of dying from asphyxiation, should this = happens=20 in what is called a "burp" - a sudden release - which = might be=20 due to a combination of strong solar heating, calm weather and = local=20 greenhouse heat retention... which process becomes self-reinforcing due = to the=20 local greenhouse effect. There are rumors of this "burp" phenomenon=20 having occurred in Siberia... but that report could have been = related=20 to Stolichnaya, one way or another, who knows...
 
Methane is a colorless, odorless gas with a wide distribution in = nature. In=20 the arctic it is due to the anaerobic bacterial decomposition of = plant=20 matter, layer upon layer for millennia. Methane is slightly less dense = than air.=20 It boils at minus 164=B0C but when frozen in a water-soil matrix = (tundra),=20 it is immobile at higher temperature until the ice = liquefies. Methane=20 is combustible at about a minimum of 5 percent in air, which seldom = happens when=20 it is released in a thaw. Even though not toxic when inhaled, it = can=20 produce suffocation by reducing the concentration of available oxygen. =
 
Consequently, in looking at the "big picture" the experts say that=20 something must be done relatively soon about this problem in the Arctic, = as the=20 tundra is already starting to thaw in too many places for it to be = anything less=20 than a persistent trend. On vortex, we have an Alaskan poster - = Horace=20 Heffner- who can vouch for that unusual level of thawing and melting of=20 glaciers, first hand.
 
There is at least 400 gigatons of methane locked in the frozen = arctic=20 tundra in Siberia, Canada, Alaska etc. - enough to start this = devastating=20 chain-reaction on a global scale - If the "runaway" scenario of = local=20 warming then spreads uncontrollably across the northern hemisphere in = the late=20 summer. Computer predictions suggest this will happen within 20 = years.
 
This high figure of frozen methane tonnage does not include the = off-shore=20 clathrates, which are also a huge threat, although less subject to a = "runaway"=20 but more subject to such things as earthquake or undersea landslide. = Fortunately=20 the oceans do not sustain a great local variation in temperature, as do = land=20 masses. BTW for comparison, the consumption of energy of all types, = worldwide,=20 is about 20 gigatons equivalent, so even if only a percentage of the = arctic=20 methane is recoverable, it can help substantially on the supply-end, in = addition=20 to reducing the risk of a "runaway."
 
There is even speculation that the last ice age, which ended about=20  ~15,000 years ago, and ended rather abruptly as those things = go, was=20 triggered as the result of runaway methane release in places like the = American=20 great plains and Russian steppes, which had been the more southerly = extreme of=20 tundra, prior to that time frame. Here is a fairly balanced analysis, as = not=20 everyone agrees as to the details:
http://= www.gl.rhbnc.ac.uk/staff/pdf/SuddenMethaneLGM.pdf.
 
There are some solutions to this problem of diluted but=20 wide-spread methane release which do not depend on huge = breakthroughs in=20 technology - just a large coordinated commitment of resources (less that = the=20 Iraq invasion, however).  In fact, we are already doing something = quite=20 similar in the USA and Europe  - in, of all places, **garbage = land-fill=20 sites.**
 
Given that methane is about 20 times more potent as a greenhouse = gas than=20 is CO2, it is even better (albeit wasteful) to burn it in-place,=20 rather than to let it disperse into the atmosphere, where it so = much more=20 of a problem. Plus given that we have a partial answer to CO2 = removal (also=20 expensive) in the ability to "seed" ocean plankton with = mineral=20 "fertilizers" so that they will remove far more CO2 than normal, then it = makes=20 double-sense to capture the arctic methane, convert it on the spot to = methanol,=20 and then use that as a fuel instead of OPEC oil... and then at the = same=20 time, begin to seed the oceans as best we can, in order to = mitigate=20 carbon.
 
... or else, invent a robust LENR or ZPE-conversion device...which = is of=20 course far more satisfactory, and the reason that most of us read this=20 news-group anyway.
 
But as a last resort, simply burning arctic methane in place, = in=20 order to keep it out of the atmosphere (by substituting CO2 for=20 CH4) is the final sad but viable option, the lesser of = the two=20 evils - and unnecessary if we act quickly to do something much = saner. Saner=20 means sooner. If we wait too long, this option is gone.
 
There is stop-gap proto-technology that can help and avoid the = necessity of=20 burning-in-place, when artic tundra starts to thaw. The technology can=20 "accelerate" the thaw - but only where it is needed so as = to release and=20 capture the methane for shipment to where it can be used (by freezing, = piping...=20 or else, converting the methane into methanol for bulk = shipment). This=20 process could cost significantly more than normal drilling, so it = demands=20 governmental involvement and risk sharing. However, if robotics can be = used,=20 then the arctic tundra methane may cost no more than off-shore deep = drilling.=20
 
Because it will involve "moving" a transportable, wide-area = "tenting"=20 structure from place to place, robotics could reduce labor costs in = areas where=20 there isn't much of a labor pool anyway. One can imagine thousands of = acres of=20 "black tarps" with built-in tubing, laid out for a few days over an = area, and=20 then moved to a new site robotically, this going-on all summer long. It = makes a=20 lot of sense to have some kind of "tenting" technology fully = researched and=20 ready to be employed to capture this methane and use it as fuel, even if = at=20 higher cost, and even if that process does increase the CO2 load, = as there=20 is that 20-1 ratio which favors this - as a last resort to letting = the=20 methane mix in the atmosphere. Plus, by the time we start doing = this on a=20 large scale, the cost of the arctic methane (methanol) may not look = so bad=20 in comparison to normal off-shore and foreign sources. And there is = certainly=20 plenty of it up there and plenty of flat land amenable to this = technique.
 
This company has a sled-mounted solution to capturing methane, = which they=20 developed for land-fills, which is not all that different.
ht= tp://www.cryofuelsystems.com/CorpBasics/CorporateBasics.htm
 
I think converting methane to methanol makes more sense, and that = "could=20 be" a simpler process than the current method - steam-reforming, which = is=20 wasteful and requires a factory-sized plant. Many hydrocarbon experts = think this=20 is doable with the proper infusion of R&D, such as this = project:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/atp2004/00-00-= 7040_factsheet.htm
which asks for a $2 million pittance. Would a hundred times that = much give=20 us an answer within a year? Then let's do it? Make it into a prize with = a $25=20 million bounty. That is how critical the problem is, so why are we = having to beg=20 for a few million for these critical projects? (not to mention LENR!). = We gladly=20 offer this much of a bounty for the head of a few cave-dwelling = terrorists,=20 why not get some real value for out bucks? (and eliminate on of the = motivations=20 for terrorism)
 
Bottom line -  if a quick and easy process: methane --> = methanol=20 can be pulled off at low pressure and temperature with catalysts, = then a=20 mini factory could be truck-mounted for 'in situ' use in the arctic = (and on=20 every large livestock farm in the world). Almost anything we can = do is=20 better than letting methane escape into the atmosphere. This is why = burning it=20 in oil refineries is better than letting it escape. But why has our DoE = failed=20 to prioritized this need already and failed to realize that we MUST = have=20 the technology for catalytic methane --> methanol process... like = YESTERDAY ?=20 Their own experts at NREL agree that it is feasible, doable and = just a=20 matter of resource allocation.
 
I can envision a scenario where large solar (i.e. black-colored) = tarps are=20 held in place at the corners over several acres at a time, and = periodically drug=20 from place-to-place by robotically operated trucks... and the methane is = collected under the tarps by built-in partial vacuum ductwork (designed = by=20 you-know-who), and converted to methanol, on the spot in those same = trucks=20 (some of it used to fuel the machinery) and then the rest piped = southward in=20 temporary pipelines (or even pumped into underground wells).
 
Expensive, sure, but it beats the heck out of having our costal = cities=20 flooded in 20 years. How much is Manhattan real estate worth these days? = Let's=20 just say that a 2% per year temporary tax on costal real estate would = easily pay=20 for this, and probably give us enough methanol to eliminate the need for = OPEC to=20 boot.
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C52DEF.34A21BC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 21 11:25:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2LJOnh5017761; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:24:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2LJOkNB017736; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:24:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:24:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00c501c52e4b$691f21c0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Re: My close encounter with Jack Sarfatti Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:23:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C0_01C52E08.5A21AE60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58579 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C0_01C52E08.5A21AE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Terry Blanton.=20 > 'Subgenius' is the proper term, IMO....He is only slightly more polite = to Puthoff...etc. He kinda likes Bohm and Tony Smith. Hey, Terry... You must be referring to this guy Frank Dodd "Tony" Smith... who, = personality-wise seems to be the prototypical vortex contributor, = no....? http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/MatrixRewritten.html Anybody who likes: numerology conspiracy theory rewriting Science fiction screw-ups the implications of Ken Shoulder's EVOs and ball lightning etc.etc. .... or is this some kind of a trickster site put up by Stephen King? Singed, Hummingbird ------=_NextPart_000_00C0_01C52E08.5A21AE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: Terry Blanton.
 
> 'Subgenius' is the proper term, IMO....He is only slightly = more polite=20 to Puthoff...etc.  He kinda likes Bohm and Tony Smith.
 
 
Hey, Terry...
 
You must be referring to this guy Frank Dodd "Tony" = Smith... who,=20 personality-wise seems to be the prototypical vortex = contributor,=20 no....?
 
http= ://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/MatrixRewritten.html
 
Anybody who likes:
 
numerology
conspiracy theory
rewriting Science fiction screw-ups
the implications of Ken Shoulder's EVOs
and ball lightning
etc.etc.
 
.... or is this some kind of a trickster site put up by Stephen = King?
 
Singed,
 
Hummingbird
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_00C0_01C52E08.5A21AE60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 21 12:15:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2LKErh5012564; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:14:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2LKEl8C012531; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:14:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:14:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050321201403.00694e64 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:14:03 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: An Equatorial Foucault Pendulum Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58580 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:22 am 21-03-05 -0900, you wrote: Rather than carry on this discursive thread in a jokey fashion and fill up the archives with lightweight stuff I thought I had better answer in a private post. >>At 06:06 am 20-03-05 -0900, Horace wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>--------------------------------an accurate lunar >>> ephemieris... >> >> >>A case of two eyes being better than one, eh. The point of my jokey remark arose as follows. I didn't know what the word "ephemieris" meant, so I had to look it up on Google. I cut and pasted but Google didn't give a definition so I realised it must have been misspelt. The correct spelling is ephemeris which only has one i. Hence my little joke which I have to admit is rather obscure if people haven't already spotted the misspelling. Still I do now know that ephemeris means ----------------------------------------------------- A table giving the coordinates of a celestial body at a number of specific times during a given period. ----------------------------------------------------- That's what I like about Vortex. One always learns something new. ;-) >>That would have really taxed Harrison's workmanship; > > >Yes indeed! I have a copy of *Longitude*, by Dava Sobel, the saga of John >Harrison and his clock, and it is a real comfort at times when the >inevitable depression comes from continually attempting and failing at >difficult or impossible things. There was a wonderful BBC program on Harrington and his clocks. If you ever get a chance to see it, do. I'm sure you would love it. > I am not aware of this pendulum phenomenon. The moon does have librations, > but these are not really pendulum effects, but rather periodic perspective > changes that occur due to ordinary orbital motions. Do you have specifics > or a reference? Your knowledge of the moon is obviously far superior to mine but google has come to my rescue and stopped me seeming a complete idiot since there are pendulum effects, albeit very small [like Gorings ***** in the wartime ribald song I remember from my boyhood. ;-) ] I have to admit that I was assuming that the geometrical librations were a pendulum effect which they obviously ain't as you correctly pointed out. >From http://www.phy6.org/stargaze/Smoon4.htm ================================================================ (An optional excursion to a somewhat specialized topic) 4b. Libration of the Moon Observers on Earth can see a little more than half the surface of the Moon, thanks to processes known as "librations." The term comes from "libra," Latin for scales. This too is the name of a constellation in the zodiac, supposedly resembling scales, and what we call "pound" also used to be called "libra, " and hence the abbreviation "lb". Two-pan weighing scales can oscillate like a pendulum, back and forth across their equilibrium position, and supposedly the libration of the Moon resembles such motion. In the equilibrium position, the long axis of the Moon points towards Earth, and libration temporarily shifts the earth-pointing tip of that axis to the north, south, east or west. Because the entire Moon follows that motion, librations reveal a little more of its surface. At any time, only half of the Moon's surface is visible from Earth, but librations allow us to "peek around the edges." Over time, up to 59% can be observed, although near the edge, where the line of view is very slanted, not much detail can be made out. Nowadays artificial lunar satellites have mapped the Moon in great detail, so such extra coverage is no big deal. But before the space age, when astronomers were denied any view of the back of the Moon, any trick for increasing their coverage was appreciated. "Libration" is used for any of several effects which allow us to "peek around the edge." Most of them, it turns out, are not associated with any pendulum-like motion of the axis, but rather represent a shift in viewing direction. Three such "geometrical librations" exist... ...Physical Librations In addition to the preceding modes, there also exist "physical" librations, actual pendulum-like nodding and wobbling of the Moon around its equilibrium position, like the spring-attached head of one of those "bobblehead dolls" popular as souvenirs. ================================================================ Keep up the good work Horace. If it wasn't for you and Jones, the Vortex group would be a dull place. :-) Cheers Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 21 12:27:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2LKR7h5020415; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:27:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2LKR2Hx020354; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:27:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:27:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:27:29 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: An Equatorial Foucault Pendulum Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58581 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:14 AM 3/21/5, Grimer wrote: >>>A case of two eyes being better than one, eh. Ohhhhh... (slaps forehead) ... now I get it! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 21 12:36:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2LKZeh5024568; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:35:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2LKZUnR024480; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:35:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:35:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <423F300A.7010902 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:35:22 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The will of God References: <20050311191046.78768.qmail web54505.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050311191046.78768.qmail web54505.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58582 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Merlyn wrote: >Not to interrupt, >thomas malloy wrote: > >As for prophecy, that's all in the interpretation, > > Oh, dear, you're being much too nit-picky here. Check out the book of Isaiah, which, one could argue, is the most important OT book (that's Old Testament, not Off-Topic) for most liturgical Christians. But first, note well that scholars and Christians agree that Isaiah lived and died a number of decades _before_ the Exile. OK so far? Now let's look at Isaiah 45:1 (NRSV): "Thus says the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped to subdue nations before him and strip kings of their robes, to open doors before him -- ...." This verse NAMES CYRUS, specifically, and designates him the instrument to be used in ending the Exile. Cyrus was born perhaps 150 years after Isaiah died. No way this was just a lucky guess!! And it's not open to much "interpretation". So, if we accept that the book of Isaiah was written by Isaiah (which, surely, all those who accept the entire Bible as being 100% divinely inspired and accurately transmitted and properly attributed must agree is the case), this seems to prove, in one easy step, the miraculous nature of Biblical prophecy. And whatever it is, it's certainly not just a matter of interpretation! Of course, the more skeptical among us might feel this example could be taken to indicate that parts of Isaiah were not correctly attributed, but such an absurd and heretical viewpoint can surely be safely dismissed. After all, if we accept that parts of Isaiah were mis-attributed and anachronistic, then we might have to consider that some other parts of the Bible could have been similarly mis-dated, which could affect the interpretation of other examples of highly inspired prophecy, perhaps even some in the New Testament itself... If I didn't think the Bible was a truly fine text I would not have read it a second time. But I make no attempt to "explain away" the anachronisms, peculiarities (e.g., the incident of Melchizedek), 4-legged insects, or strange fate(s) of Judas. >which never seems to happen until after the event has >occured. If you want to convince me, you are going to >have to find a very specific prophecy, something that >says "on this day this will happen to these people" >and you are going to have to find it before that date >and have it witnessed in some fashion. > >Merlyn >Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! >http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 21 12:37:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2LKalh5025068; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:36:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2LKaiFV025037; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:36:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:36:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050321203600.006b51d0 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:36:00 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: An Equatorial Foucault Pendulum Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58583 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 07:22 am 21-03-05 -0900, I wrote: > >Rather than carry on this discursive thread in a jokey fashion and >fill up the archives with lightweight stuff I thought I had better >answer in a private post. OOoooopps! That'll teach me to check I've changed the return address BEFORE writing the post, eh! [Sound of tearing out of hair!] 8-( Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 21 13:45:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2LLjWh5028191; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:45:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2LLjUYH028171; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:45:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:45:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=2TbejsahgDVxah3TCGy308mSTNrSqNLIOILKrWNgb1qDmrKVA4MmHUpN/uXLCTxqHjE/QKAmEpRYrCZBOgbq1AdEZTtuEzcp3Ux/lRSEpjLyBIBuj1g39sOyIvfZNhDBsWtltZROecZ9tlkEUdGBsapLK4GDsfOb+sruPEnSM7U= ; Message-ID: <20050321214522.46426.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:45:21 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: My close encounter with Jack Sarfatti To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1596512859-1111441521=:46328" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58584 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1596512859-1111441521=:46328 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii How many physicists wear cowboy hats? Jones Beene wrote:.... or is this some kind of a trickster site put up by Stephen King? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1596512859-1111441521=:46328 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
How many physicists wear cowboy hats?

Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:
.... or is this some kind of a trickster site put up by Stephen King?

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1596512859-1111441521=:46328-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 21 13:58:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2LLvhh5002833; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:57:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2LLumjg002289; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:56:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:56:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:57:38 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Arctic methane Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58585 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:23 AM 3/21/5, Jones Beene wrote: [snip] >Consequently, in looking at the "big picture" the experts say that >something must be done relatively soon about this problem in the Arctic, >as the tundra is already starting to thaw in too many places for it to be >anything less than a persistent trend. On vortex, we have an Alaskan >poster - Horace Heffner- who can vouch for that unusual level of thawing >and melting of glaciers, first hand. No need to depend on my anecdotal experience here the last 29 years, though I agree wholeheartedly with the above. You can see some glacier examples for yourself at: More importantly, a systematic quantitative investigation is underway which shows dramatic reduction in glacier thickness (as opposed to length), an effect which is not so easy to see: Fairly recent news reports on local TV here (KTUU) have noted that the 2004 summer numbers, which apparently only recently became available in analyzed form, show a large acceleration in the rate of melting during the last two years. I have not seen anything published on this recent development, but there may be something available somewhere, maybe even on www.ktuu.com. The TV report I think referred to a 4 ft per year average meltoff rate. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 21 14:05:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2LM5Bh5009707; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:05:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2LM57us009682; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:05:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:05:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:06:03 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: An Equatorial Foucault Pendulum Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58586 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:29 AM 3/20/5, Grimer wrote: >> A gyroscope very well gimballed in all axes and oriented in the equatorial >> plane should work (though not as a pendulum). A nifty thing about that in >> the old days is it could have replaced an accurate clock as the means of >> determining longitude. A good gyro, combined with an accurate lunar >> ephemieris... > > >A case of two eyes being better than one, eh. Yes, I misspelled "ephemeris" above, having added an extra "i". However, it's still handy to be able to have even one bad eye open when the other is obscured, even though the extra "i" above apparently was not obscured. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 21 19:50:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2M3nse0021973; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:49:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2M3nlOb021913; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:49:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:49:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050321194404.052df008 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:55:48 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Wikipedia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_-1874611984==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <-dMBaB.A.PWF.ZX5PCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58587 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_-1874611984==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hey Jed, Congratulations on your progress on the Wiki CF page. You have been surprisingly diplomatic ;) . I also respect the time you put in as evidenced by the discussion page. It seems to have paid off. Your contribution is significant for two reasons: 1. Your corrections to Energy source vs power store are right on target and just plain honest. 2. You've established a method, using references, that is acceptable to the Wiki community. As you and others will note, your work has not been defaced or challenged. So there is hope. I'll see what I can do to help, a little bit here and there. Maybe we can make the Wiki page the best, most accurate, and most progressive reference for CF after all. s --=====================_-1874611984==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hey Jed,

Congratulations on your progress on the Wiki CF page. You have been surprisingly diplomatic ;) . I also respect the time you put in as evidenced by the discussion page.
 
It seems to have paid off. Your contribution is significant for two reasons: 1. Your corrections to Energy source vs power store are right on target and just plain honest. 2. You've established a method, using references, that is acceptable to the Wiki community. As you and others will note, your work has not been defaced or challenged.

So there is hope.  I'll see what I can do to help, a little bit here and there. Maybe we can make the Wiki page the best, most accurate, and most progressive reference for CF after all.

s --=====================_-1874611984==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 21 21:42:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2M5g5wG013045; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:42:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2M5g3T0013001; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:42:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:42:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:42:58 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Budding Scientist 8^) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58588 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Occasionally one runs across something that MUST be shared. Curiosity: an essential ingrediant for science. See: Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 22 06:59:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2MExFIR005140; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:59:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2MExC33005121; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:59:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:59:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=huxiB52UIUmg9Ql+F94hK1vXchqUqNQAIqSCBY63ehh2BH1SVqQZi6YQiMdGq7Jvhkb6/rT4qRi8zI8Khl5MWqY4h4ky+x5krdUmGds36RzAOG8qPXuDhj0W5hiY/h943fHTMwar6SZEpCTJl/IIvlq4ozQRIAYz1Nm8N3kbQNE= ; Message-ID: <20050322145859.5668.qmail web54502.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:58:59 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: OT: The will of God To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58589 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Of course I'm being nit-picky Stephen, I believe the bible to be a good book, and to have some excellent lessons for our society, but I do not believe it to be the revealed word of God as you obviously do. The main point is that the bible you and I read is not only a translation of a translation, but the original written text had been passed by oral tradition for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Fundamentalists always cite that God influenced those keepers of knowledge so that the translation is just as accurate as the original, but I have problems believing that. History abounds with examples of men misinterpreting scripture to justify heinous acts. --- "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > > > Merlyn wrote: > >As for prophecy, that's all in the interpretation, > > > > > Oh, dear, you're being much too nit-picky here. > > Check out the book of Isaiah, which, one could > argue, is the most > important OT book (that's Old Testament, not > Off-Topic) for most > liturgical Christians. > > But first, note well that scholars and Christians > agree that Isaiah > lived and died a number of decades _before_ the > Exile. OK so far? > > Now let's look at Isaiah 45:1 (NRSV): > > "Thus says the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, > whose right hand I have > grasped to subdue nations before him and strip kings > of their robes, to > open doors before him -- ...." > > This verse NAMES CYRUS, specifically, and designates > him the instrument > to be used in ending the Exile. Cyrus was born > perhaps 150 years after > Isaiah died. No way this was just a lucky guess!! > And it's not open to > much "interpretation". > > So, if we accept that the book of Isaiah was written > by Isaiah (which, > surely, all those who accept the entire Bible as > being 100% divinely > inspired and accurately transmitted and properly > attributed must agree > is the case), this seems to prove, in one easy step, > the miraculous > nature of Biblical prophecy. And whatever it is, > it's certainly not > just a matter of interpretation! > > Of course, the more skeptical among us might feel > this example could be > taken to indicate that parts of Isaiah were not > correctly attributed, > but such an absurd and heretical viewpoint can > surely be safely > dismissed. After all, if we accept that parts of > Isaiah were > mis-attributed and anachronistic, then we might have > to consider that > some other parts of the Bible could have been > similarly mis-dated, which > could affect the interpretation of other examples of > highly inspired > prophecy, perhaps even some in the New Testament > itself... > > If I didn't think the Bible was a truly fine text I > would not have read > it a second time. But I make no attempt to "explain > away" the > anachronisms, peculiarities (e.g., the incident of > Melchizedek), > 4-legged insects, or strange fate(s) of Judas. > Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 22 08:34:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2MGYPIR023218; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 08:34:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2MGYL01023183; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 08:34:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 08:34:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42404902.9050403 pobox.com> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:34:10 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The will of God References: <20050322145859.5668.qmail web54502.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050322145859.5668.qmail web54502.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58590 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Merlyn wrote: >Of course I'm being nit-picky Stephen, >I believe the bible to be a good book, and to have >some excellent lessons for our society, but I do not >believe it to be the revealed word of God as you >obviously do. > >The main point is that the bible you and I read is not >only a translation of a translation, but the original >written text had been passed by oral tradition for >hundreds, if not thousands, of years. > >Fundamentalists always cite that God influenced those >keepers of knowledge so that the translation is just >as accurate as the original, but I have problems >believing that. > Right ... among other things, that belief makes it hard to understand how there could have been multiple editions of the King James version, with corrections in the later editions. (I don't recall exactly how many editions it went through; more than two, for sure; possibly several dozen.) It's also hard to see why leading rabbis felt it necessary to add checksums to the Masoretic text, if we discount the notion that they had observed copy errors in extant manuscripts. (Don't recall the exact date -- some time in the vicinity of 1000 AD, I think, well before the King James version was compiled using, in part, the Masoretic text of the OT. This is the earliest use of checksums for the purpose of preserving data integrity of which I'm aware.) In any case, my post was not entirely serious and even a bit sarcastic; your response is far more level-headed. But this has gotten so far off topic that it's hard to see any connection at all to alternative energy sources so I should probably go back to lurking until I have something more useful to say. >History abounds with examples of men >misinterpreting scripture to justify heinous acts. > > Yes. It's worth emphasizing the "misinterpreting" part: Considering the actual words of Jesus, as recorded in the Bible, when Christians do bad things, they do them _in_ _spite_ _of_ the teachings of Jesus -- not _because_ of them. The same could be said of Buddists, I expect, though I haven't read more than a few paragraphs of the Buddist scriptures. And now I really will shut up :-) Cheers... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 22 08:57:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2MGvTIR002199; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 08:57:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2MGvQIq002169; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 08:57:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 08:57:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: 5 tesla sphere / was RE: Budding Scientist 8^) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:59:07 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58591 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scientist? That ape is cut from Presidential timber, my friend. You write: >Occasionally one runs across something that MUST be shared. When I read this, what came to mind was something more like -> http://mag-net.ee.umist.ac.uk/reports/P14/p14_2.html A sweet piece of magnet engineering there, huh? K. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 12:43 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Budding Scientist 8^) Occasionally one runs across something that MUST be shared. Curiosity: an essential ingrediant for science. See: Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 22 09:41:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2MHfQFe025727; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:41:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2MHfN0t025696; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:41:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:41:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <051b01c52f06$1f0bbf60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Subject: Fusion is easy Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:39:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0518_01C52EC3.0E7B7700" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58592 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0518_01C52EC3.0E7B7700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A message on another forum got me to thinking about a possible = cross-over regime between LENR, particularly Mizuno-type glow discharge, = and the seemingly unrelated IEC warm fusion (Farnsworth Fusor). Check out this "Homemade Amateur Nuclear Fusion Reactor" : http://www.brian-mcdermott.com/fusion_is_easy.htm Jon Rosenstiel's Fusor (shown here): This small fusor currently holds = the amateur record with a fusion output of 10^7 (100 million") fusion = reactions per second. This is rock-solid robust fusion, but there is = little scale-up potential for the Fusor (in contrast to CF) because the = tiny central "convergence reaction zone" gets less-efficient, the larger = it is. Although this reaction rate of 10^7 is quite impressive in terms of = neutrons, especially compared to LENR reactions, it is actually farther = from energy breakeven than is CF in terms of P-in to P-out, but it does = have *striking QM implications,* and may point the way towards an = enhancement technique for hybrid-LENR (unfortunately in a relatively = complicated experiment.)=20 Many observers nowadays (R. Mills in particular) are trying to re-write = Quantum Mechanics in keeping with new discoveries. I will leave that = subject of the experts, but for the purposes of this idea, let us assume = that there is a QM "probability distribution curve" for tunneling = fusion, which curve can be enhanced merely by proximity to ongoing = reactions of the same type.=20 This is an off-shoot of quantum entanglement, which is a proven = phenomenon, to some degree. There are Russian experiments which claim = this kind of enhancement, and some older work in CF also claims to = benefit this (Nelson Ying) but his work was flawed from the start and = never reproduced. Not surprising, in retrospect. I think the reason that the Ying experiment was not reproduced is clear = now. He was thinking, and wrongly asserting, that "any kind" of external = gamma source would raise the QM probability for CF, a glaring error ! = ...which error was made all the more unfortunate, because he may have = been 'half-right' insofar as the single issue of entanglement is = concerned. BUT because he tried to 'cut corners' with the specific way = in which entanglement is applied, he ended up 'poisoning' what would = have been a great underlying idea with a badly-conceived implementation. = The clear consequence of the QM entanglement-theory is that the = correlation is very specific as to cross-identity, and is not related to = simply any gamma emission, per se. There is also the related A-B effect, = which might have some application to cold fusion, in that the magnetic = vector potential of *specific* gamma radiation, may end up being the = transfer medium for entanglement (in the broadest sense). I am trying to = find some online references for just the 'entanglement part' of the = equation - from other related fields, but for now - this is just a rough = hypothesis. Here is a college physics lecture by Ludwik Kowalski which offers some = background concerning QM probability and tunneling http://blake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/40lecture.html He stops short of the treatment of Quantum entanglement, which is a = quantum mechanical phenomenon in which the quantum states of two or more = proximate objects must be described with mutual reference to each other, = even though the individual objects may be spatially separated.=20 This leads to "strange" correlations between observable physical = properties of the systems. For example, it is possible to prepare two = particles in a single quantum state such that when one is observed to be = spin-up, the other one will always be observed to be spin-down - and = vice versa. This despite the fact that it is impossible to predict, = using quantum mechanics, which set of measurements will be observed. The = A-B (or Aharonov-Bohm) effect is connected to entanglement and violation = of Bell Inequality and one suspects that the modality is the magnetic = vector potential of whatever radiation is present. Using that as a jumping-off point, (and it is admittedly a big leap) = there is this anecdotal evidence that the QM probability in cold fusion = is enhanced by proximity to ongoing reactions of the same type, because = of quantum entanglement. IOW in looking at reaction rates, there are = classical and QM probability distribution curves - which do vary = significantly - by many orders of magnitude. But then there is also this = enhanced QM probability curve based upon proximity to ongoing reactions = of the same kind, which might be orders of magnitude higher yet. IF this were true, then a combined Fusor/LENR device might possess = enough **synergy** (derived from QM entanglement) to push it over the = top, in terms of energy breakeven.=20 Actually if you can get any small device to produce 10^11 neutrons per = second (about 10,000 times more than the Fusor mentioned above but still = less than net breakeven) then voila, you have essentially created the = "enabling technology" for the small subcritical natural uranium reactor, = the Gaia reactor, which is potentially "cleaner" and safer than burning = coal. But that is another story. Back to the combined Fusor/glow discharge hybrid. I envision this as a = small grapefruit sized Fusor, layered in another sphere, the external = surface of the Fusor (composed of nickel or titanium) which surface also = doubles as the glow discharge electrode of a Mizuno-type LENR cell. This = might entail some changes in operation of the Fusor, but these changes = are common across the range of design for this device. The beauty of = this hybrid is that you have a low-density plasma inside, which is = robust but which is severely limited in terms of scale-up potential BUT = you also have this high density surrounding layer, which essentially = unlimited as to scale-up potential, but which is NOT robust. As with all = synergy, one tries to combine strength with strength to eliminate both = weaknesses. BTW, for this envisioned application, you want to AVOID the D+D --> 4He = reaction, in favor of the 3He plus neutron reaction (the 3H reaction = also ends up in an immediate secondary reaction and a higher energy = neutron. This concept is probably most valuable as a pure high flux = neutron source, and I don't mind saying at first glance it seems to be = one of my better uses of two hours of tossing around a flash of = inspiration in the "grey lab". There are lots of geometry and other constraints operating here, but the = combination should work to the benefit of both reactions IF there really = is an enhanced probability in the sense of QM entanglement operating to = alter the likelihood of tunneling in the LENR case, and then that = reaction operating in the reverse, on the kinetic side (which is also a = tunneling reaction, but one limited by focusing geometry). Now the sad realization. This is just one more (of many examples ) of possible promising lines = for experimental work, which is indicative of the broad range of = unexplored avenues which exist now in the field of LENR.... BUT... which = will never get much more than this kind of casual mention, without a = large influx of R&D funding from government. This is too way too risky = and hypothetical for the normal capitalist system of financing R&D. One can only suspect that a viable answer to "energy independence" is = out there now, and is even close-by, and has probably been mentioned = here before... but with the present intransigence of the DoE, which is = still 15 years behind-the-curve, and with a paucity of other funding = sources, some of these potentially good ideas will wither away... while = men dressed in keffiyehs stand in line to deposit billions of = hard-earned American dollars in Swiss banks. Jones ------=_NextPart_000_0518_01C52EC3.0E7B7700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A message on another forum got me to thinking about a possible = cross-over=20 regime between LENR, particularly Mizuno-type glow discharge, and = the=20 seemingly unrelated IEC warm fusion (Farnsworth Fusor).
 
Check out this "Homemade Amateur Nuclear Fusion Reactor" = :
http://www.bri= an-mcdermott.com/fusion_is_easy.htm
 
Jon Rosenstiel's Fusor (shown here): This small fusor currently = holds the=20 amateur record with a fusion output of 10^7 (100 million") fusion=20 reactions per second. This is rock-solid robust fusion, but there = is little=20 scale-up potential for the Fusor (in contrast to CF) because the tiny = central=20 "convergence reaction zone" gets less-efficient, the larger it is.
 
Although this reaction rate of 10^7 is quite impressive in = terms of=20 neutrons, especially compared to LENR reactions, it is actually farther = from=20 energy breakeven than is CF in terms of P-in to P-out, but it does have=20 *striking QM implications,* and may point the way towards an = enhancement=20 technique for hybrid-LENR (unfortunately in a relatively complicated=20 experiment.)
 
Many observers nowadays (R. Mills in particular) are trying to = re-write=20 Quantum Mechanics in keeping with new discoveries. I will leave that = subject of=20 the experts, but for the purposes of this idea, let us assume that = there is=20 a QM "probability distribution curve" for tunneling fusion, which = curve can=20 be enhanced merely by proximity to ongoing reactions of the same type. =
 
This is an off-shoot of quantum entanglement, which is a proven = phenomenon,=20 to some degree. There are Russian experiments which claim this kind of=20 enhancement, and some older work in CF also claims to benefit this = (Nelson Ying)=20 but his work was flawed from the start and never reproduced. Not = surprising, in=20 retrospect.
 
I think the reason that the Ying experiment was not = reproduced is=20 clear now. He was thinking, and wrongly asserting, that "any kind" of = external=20 gamma source would raise the QM probability for CF, a glaring error ! = ...which=20 error was made all the more unfortunate, because he may have been = 'half-right'=20 insofar as the single issue of entanglement is concerned. BUT because he = tried=20 to 'cut corners' with the specific way in which entanglement is applied, = he=20 ended up 'poisoning' what would have been a great underlying idea with a = badly-conceived implementation.
 
The clear consequence of the QM entanglement-theory is that the = correlation=20 is very specific as to cross-identity, and is not related to simply any = gamma=20 emission, per se. There is also the related A-B effect, which might have = some=20 application to cold fusion, in that the magnetic vector potential of = *specific*=20 gamma radiation, may end up being the transfer medium for entanglement = (in the=20 broadest sense). I am trying to find some online references for just the = 'entanglement part' of the equation - from other related fields, but for = now=20 - this is just a rough hypothesis.
 
Here is a college physics lecture by Ludwik Kowalski which offers = some=20 background concerning QM probability and tunneling
http://b= lake.montclair.edu/~kowalskil/cf/40lecture.html
He stops short of the treatment of Quantum entanglement, which = is a=20 quantum mechanical phenomenon in which the quantum states of two or more = proximate objects must be described with mutual reference to each other, = even=20 though the individual objects may be spatially separated.
 
This leads to "strange" correlations between observable physical = properties=20 of the systems. For example, it is possible to prepare two particles in = a single=20 quantum state such that when one is observed to be spin-up, the other = one will=20 always be observed to be spin-down - and vice versa. This despite the = fact that=20 it is impossible to predict, using quantum mechanics, which set of = measurements=20 will be observed. The A-B (or Aharonov-Bohm) effect is connected to = entanglement and violation of Bell Inequality and one suspects that the = modality=20 is the magnetic vector potential of whatever radiation is present.
 
Using that as a jumping-off point, (and it is admittedly a big = leap) there=20 is this anecdotal evidence that the QM probability in cold fusion is = enhanced by=20 proximity to ongoing reactions of the same type, because of quantum=20 entanglement. IOW in looking at reaction rates, there are classical = and QM=20 probability distribution curves - which do vary significantly - by = many=20 orders of magnitude. But then there is also this enhanced QM probability = curve=20 based upon proximity to ongoing reactions of the same kind, which might = be=20 orders of magnitude higher yet.
 
IF this were true, then a combined Fusor/LENR device might possess = enough=20 **synergy** (derived from QM entanglement) to push it over the = top, in=20 terms of energy breakeven. 
 
Actually if you can get any small device to produce 10^11 neutrons = per=20 second (about 10,000 times more than the Fusor mentioned above but=20 still less than net breakeven) then voila, you have = essentially=20 created the "enabling technology" for the small subcritical natural = uranium=20 reactor, the Gaia reactor, which is potentially "cleaner" and safer than = burning=20 coal. But that is another story.
 
Back to the combined Fusor/glow discharge hybrid. I envision this = as a=20 small grapefruit sized Fusor, layered in another sphere, the external = surface of=20 the Fusor (composed of nickel or titanium) which surface also doubles as = the=20 glow discharge electrode of a Mizuno-type LENR cell. This might entail = some=20 changes in operation of the Fusor, but these changes are common across = the range=20 of design for this device. The beauty of this hybrid is that you have a=20 low-density plasma inside, which is robust but which is severely limited = in=20 terms of scale-up potential BUT you also have this high density = surrounding=20 layer, which essentially unlimited as to scale-up potential, but which = is NOT=20 robust. As with all synergy, one tries to combine strength with strength = to=20 eliminate both weaknesses.
 
BTW, for this envisioned application, you want to AVOID the = D+D -->=20 4He reaction, in favor of the 3He plus neutron reaction (the 3H = reaction=20 also ends up in an immediate secondary reaction and a higher energy = neutron.=20 This concept is probably most valuable as a pure high flux neutron = source, and I=20 don't mind saying at first glance it seems to be one of my better uses = of two=20 hours of tossing around a flash of inspiration in the "grey lab".
 
There are lots of geometry and other constraints operating here, = but the=20 combination should work to the benefit of both reactions IF there really = is an=20 enhanced probability in the sense of QM entanglement operating to alter = the=20 likelihood of tunneling in the LENR case, and then that reaction = operating in=20 the reverse, on the kinetic side (which is also a tunneling reaction, = but one=20 limited by focusing geometry).
 
Now the sad realization.
 
This is just one more (of many examples ) of possible = promising lines=20 for experimental work, which is indicative of the broad range of = unexplored=20 avenues which exist now in the field of LENR.... BUT... which will = never=20 get much more than this kind of casual mention, without a large influx = of=20 R&D funding from government. This is too way too risky and = hypothetical for=20 the normal capitalist system of financing R&D.
 
One can only suspect that a viable answer to "energy = independence" is=20 out there now, and is even close-by, and has probably been mentioned = here=20 before... but with the present intransigence of the DoE, which is still = 15 years=20 behind-the-curve, and with a paucity of other funding sources, some = of=20 these potentially good ideas will wither away... while men dressed in = keffiyehs=20 stand in line to deposit billions of hard-earned American dollars in = Swiss=20 banks.
 
Jones
------=_NextPart_000_0518_01C52EC3.0E7B7700-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 22 11:06:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2MJ5bEg003218; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:05:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2MJ5Z3q003198; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:05:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:05:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050322111017.03316538 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:11:38 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Budding Scientist 8^) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <3545_D.A.5x.-xGQCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58593 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: True empirical observations. I guess it could have been worse..there are other senses he could have used. ;) At 08:42 PM 3/21/2005 -0900, you wrote: >Occasionally one runs across something that MUST be shared. Curiosity: an >essential ingrediant for science. See: > > > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 22 11:47:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2MJl5Eg022356; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:47:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2MJl27r022285; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:47:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:47:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:48:01 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Budding Scientist 8^) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58594 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:11 AM 3/22/5, Steven Krivit wrote: >True empirical observations. >I guess it could have been worse..there are other senses he could have used. ;) For sure! 8^) Now, if only he were a trained chemist he would have known to hold the sample with the right hand and waft the aroma towards the nostrils with the left hand. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 22 11:50:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2MJnmEg023990; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:49:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2MJnPlf023705; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:49:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:49:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:45:15 -0900 To: From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: 5 tesla sphere / was RE: Budding Scientist 8^) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58595 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:59 AM 3/22/5, Keith Nagel wrote: >Scientist? > >That ape is cut from Presidential timber, my friend. I suppose in any generation life may be a bit like that in the White House on a day to day basis. 8^) > >You write: >>Occasionally one runs across something that MUST be shared. > >When I read this, what came to mind was something more like -> > >http://mag-net.ee.umist.ac.uk/reports/P14/p14_2.html But it just doesn't make one laugh! Perhaps my sense of humor runs on the juvenile side, and it only gets more so yearly, but that video clip is a wonderful relief from cabin fever. > >A sweet piece of magnet engineering there, huh? Yes it is. However, it certainly challenges the amateur to think up ways to obtain bigger and more accessable gaps, and stronger field intensities. It is amazing that there are large affordable 50 MGOe magets readily available these days. It would be handy if there were cheap accurate small Tesla probes on the market that covered a wide range. This area might be good for some kind of amateur contest. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 22 12:40:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2MKdcEg016725; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:39:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2MKdZNN016683; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:39:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:39:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=XLEinFD2HNE3ik6GY37Wgq0NrQl0chzR+awZQd124s9tHg8pyxsd2WxtmBSFayBcVPrgaePmcYL+Mu+O3Sj7CC2D6bxGvvHvN18g2+/qG1mcUg2R46InlSCyT8qux1+wF2u3IbA6eMqxxTEeRMaZmf2P0P1ru+DMO+Y3PLluBl4= ; Message-ID: <20050322203923.42677.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:39:23 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Budding Scientist 8^) To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1993984905-1111523963=:41338" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58596 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-1993984905-1111523963=:41338 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This one *did*: www.holylemon.com/monkeypee.html Steven Krivit wrote: True empirical observations. I guess it could have been worse..there are other senses he could have used. ;) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1993984905-1111523963=:41338 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
This one *did*:
 
www.holylemon.com/monkeypee.html

Steven Krivit <steven newenergytimes.com> wrote:
True empirical observations.
I guess it could have been worse..there are other senses he could have used. ;)

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Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1993984905-1111523963=:41338-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 22 14:23:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2MMN56n004547; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:23:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2MMN3rs004528; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:23:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:23:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=NIXO4kh6Ni/bEbdi4KVYsdwOOGC+Ju8Ewh+o+762j8so/klUnoEMsPfQl4eWTEK6rFILdVcD7+6CFzSoN73oozLOKQV2Z+mkb12i2HyfyCYOH2r1DpxfbLrbytaTXIijlnVp64xM68dw+xXPKcFZDBTgKxokvBzI4uHVsXEm4eo= ; Message-ID: <20050322222252.56513.qmail web51709.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:22:51 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Detroit Pushing Diesel Hybrids To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1366486979-1111530171=:55807" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58597 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1366486979-1111530171=:55807 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For $8k extra per vehicle: http://wired.com/news/autotech/0%2C2554%2C66949%2C00.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1366486979-1111530171=:55807 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
For $8k extra per vehicle:
 

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Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1366486979-1111530171=:55807-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 22 14:29:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2MMTG6n007161; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:29:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2MMTDOv007128; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:29:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:29:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ck5uDhv/k9Kw7mLT9Xc8bnUepmFz9Us+o0vDis7tiQWfWOV6AQwhOMjtTmYLLGUqqr1SeSjVDuCThVgy7HD1tboIFhEFW0cJdgj1GaB2Fv03yVOzECAW0EKHAYiti3sA1rIhXXnC/1FZAVcAKQ8/qTZ/j82pG4fvC4u4NQd+lFI= ; Message-ID: <20050322222857.15958.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:28:57 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Oil Crash To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1509985105-1111530537=:14833" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58598 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-1509985105-1111530537=:14833 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This article says that the Canadian Sands won't save us because you can't squeeze it out fast enough: http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1509985105-1111530537=:14833 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
This article says that the Canadian Sands won't save us because you can't squeeze it out fast enough:
 

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http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1509985105-1111530537=:14833-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 22 17:03:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2N12T6n031205; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:02:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2N12EQH030981; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:02:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:02:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4240BAB9.3020104 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:39:21 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Oil Crash References: <20050322222857.15958.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050322222857.15958.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1DVeKC.A.wjH.SAMQCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58599 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wonder why the article ignores the fact that deuterium is the only energy source that is in sufficient amount with a sufficiently high energy density? What does it take to make this fact part of government policy? Even the hot fusion program, as poor a method as it is, receives little support and, as we know, cold fusion is actively ignored. This is rather like people on a sinking ship ignoring the life boat because it is not painted with their favorite color. Ed Terry Blanton wrote: > This article says that the Canadian Sands won't save us because you > can't squeeze it out fast enough: > > http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 22 17:55:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2N1t16n024153; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:55:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2N1svHr024109; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:54:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:54:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=eWvWW+vXq7LpJ0hwkjmvDsxZF8OhLAWjueXYxzfKNtwOHpF0FT90fsz5NwjUV39SxZLIOIbXySwm4v6FyXlkPbsreZx2lHsx1gVLGjJPVcDCZxO2ajI9e44zlg80ludCUivg+OKlhb4vszL4xc7+Bp+wJoaAVtUK+pJUj9W688Y= ; Message-ID: <20050323015450.81773.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:54:50 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: [OT] Tools for the Development of Humanity To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <4h5fsD.A.p4F.xxMQCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58600 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I received an invitation to the following. I post it so that you might regard the sponsors list to the right: http://www.arlingtoninstitute.org/TAICON2005/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 22 21:42:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2N5foqB014247; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:41:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2N5fkJ4014219; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:41:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:41:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Oil Crash Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:41:35 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050322222857.15958.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> <4240BAB9.3020104@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <4240BAB9.3020104 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2N5fgqB014170 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58601 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:39:21 -0700: Hi, >I wonder why the article ignores the fact that deuterium is the only >energy source that is in sufficient amount with a sufficiently high >energy density? What does it take to make this fact part of government >policy? Even the hot fusion program, as poor a method as it is, >receives little support and, as we know, cold fusion is actively >ignored. This is rather like people on a sinking ship ignoring the life >boat because it is not painted with their favorite color. [snip] Actually the crew is in the hold boring holes in the hull, and the passengers are paying them to do it, while they stand around and watch. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 02:10:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NA9M2J014013; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 02:09:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NA9J4l014000; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 02:09:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 02:09:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050323100832.006ade58 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:08:32 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Oil Crash Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58602 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:28 pm 22-03-05 -0800, you wrote: >This article says that the Canadian Sands won't save us because you can't squeeze it out fast enough: > >http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ "They have no wine". Time to wheel out the five water pots. 8-) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 05:33:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NDX92J002120; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:33:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NDX7bt002103; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:33:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:33:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42417049.7020400 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:34:01 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Oil Crash References: <20050322222857.15958.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050322222857.15958.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58603 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > This article says that the Canadian Sands won't save us because you > can't squeeze it out fast enough: > > http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ Fascinating. Does anyone here know what the effect of peak oil is likely to be on global warming? Lack of oil will ruin the economy and lead to WWIII -- but will it also save the polar bears? Or have CO2 levels already gone so high that a methane burp followed by a total meltdown is inevitable? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 06:42:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NEfM2J003746; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:41:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NEfJIA003717; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:41:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:41:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050323144111.9905.qmail web54510.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:41:10 -0800 (PST) From: Merlyn Subject: Re: OT: The will of God To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58604 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I apologize for not hearing the sarcasm, which is now obvious to me. I live and work with fundametalists every day and so sometimes I am inclined to take people at their word when they say such things. I must admit it has been a fun conversation though. --- "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > > > > And now I really will shut up :-) > > Cheers... > > Cheers... Merlyn Magickal Engineer and Technical Metaphysicist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 07:34:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NFXX2J011701; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:33:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NFXQOh011593; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:33:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:33:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:34:19 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Oil Crash Resent-Message-ID: <-SrPuD.A.30C.ExYQCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58605 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 8:34 AM 3/23/5, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >Terry Blanton wrote: > >> This article says that the Canadian Sands won't save us because you >> can't squeeze it out fast enough: >> >> http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ > > >Fascinating. > >Does anyone here know what the effect of peak oil is likely to be on >global warming? Lack of oil will ruin the economy and lead to WWIII -- >but will it also save the polar bears? Or have CO2 levels already gone >so high that a methane burp followed by a total meltdown is inevitable? All you can get on this right now is opinion, so here's mine. The very existence of global warming is still contended. Unlike typical new scientific theories and supporting data, which can be fully accepted only when those who have professed opposed principles all their lives die off, we can not wait for those who can not accept the existence global warming, much less the possibility of *runaway* global warming, to die off before action is taken. Unfortunately, that is the mode we have been in - waiting for both politically over committed scientists and scientifically challenged politicians to die off so an appropriate perspective can be developed. Research on global warming in general, and on methane release in particular, has been grossly underfunded. This is the other side of the coin with regard to common funding errors. Funding for fusion research, and renewable energy research and development, is too small because the funding process is not based on the expected value of the research, but rather the likelihood the research will yield anything important. This effect is due to the need for ego protection. No bureaucrat wants to fund anything which might fail, much less anything stigmatized which might fail. The expected value of research is the sum of the probability of each possible outcome times the dollar value of such outcome. Errors in funding decisions occur when there is a colossal value to a possible outcome which has small probability. In the case of cold fusion, the dollar value is for all practical purposes infinite. The probability of successfully achieving it is not zero, as many researchers can attest, so the expected value of the research in this area dwarfs many other kinds of research. This results in an error on the positive side, or type 1 error (my definition). The other side of the coin, a type 2 error, is an error on the negative side, a failing to asses the expected cost of risk, i.e. to examine negative expected values. Research on runaway global warming, due to methane release and high altitude water vapor, is undervalued due to a type 2 error. Failing to asses the risk early enough has a catastrophically high negative value. The probability of this risk is not zero, as evidenced by the climate mode of Venus. Given the fact that type 1 and and type 2 funding errors continue to be made, there is no way to reliably answer your question. The ongoing research may be too little too late. The effect of the oil peak can be reasonably predicted, however. The response in some countries will likely be to substitute coal energy for petroleum energy. The effect of this is clearly catastrophic. It is reasonable to expect that only a world war, both economic and military, can stop this. Further, the peak is just that, merely a peak. The subject article suggests the peak is symmetrical. If the peak occurs in 2000, it suggests the production in 2020 will be the same as in 1980. On this basis we can see that emissions out to 2150 will mimic those of the industrial age, and thus environmental catastrophe is unavoidable even if Hubbert's peak exists and we have passed the peak. I happen to have a little bit of practical experience with the projection of production curves. In my experience they are not symmetrical. They decrease more rapidly than they increase. I therefore think we thus can expect social effects more quickly than the article suggest, and a turn to coal production much more quickly than many expect. Methane production will increase dramatically too, but that is already a given. To sum up my opinion, the net effect of passing a global oil production peak, barring a miracle, will be to increase carbon emissions. Research funding errors, both type 1 and type 2 have been and will continue to be made until those who make them die off or are replaced. On the bight side, I was most surprised to catch on TV a small piece of a recent news conference in which President Bush was strongly encouraging energy conservation. I was also surprised no one mentioned it on vortex. This may be a sign of some kind of awakening in the administration. Then again, maybe not. My approach to a solution of the problem, "An Energy Legacy Plan", I have posted here on vortex a number a times. As the plan notes, the funding amount suggested in the plan is too small, but was chosen because it seemed feasible based on political and economic conditions at the time. The essence of the plan is to create an entity which operates outside politics as much as possible, which has long term funding and a positive perspective, and which profits substantially from the energy crises so that exponential positive feedback exists in the solution process as well as the problem processes. It then politically is just a matter of determining the importance of and amount of funding, not the course of action. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 07:56:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NFtl2J025505; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:55:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NFte88025447; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:55:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:55:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050323104455.02c144e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:55:09 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Oil Crash In-Reply-To: <4240BAB9.3020104 ix.netcom.com> References: <20050322222857.15958.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> <4240BAB9.3020104 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_4569796==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58606 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_4569796==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Edmund Storms wrote: >I wonder why the article ignores the fact that deuterium is the only >energy source that is in sufficient amount with a sufficiently high energy >density? Actually, I believe the energy density and availability of uranium would be enough to produce all the energy we need for a few thousand years, even with today's highly inefficient fission reactors. Of course there are many problems with uranium as we all know! Wind energy could supply a large fraction of today's total energy demand. It might even be enough to supply all energy, but future demand is likely to grow, and it would be nice to have enough energy left over for things like gigantic desalination projects. I do not think that wind or uranium could supply enough energy for such purposes. The only source of energy large enough for this, other than deuterium fusion (hot or cold), would be space-based solar energy. The prospects for space-based solar are becoming much more realistic than they used to be, with the likely advent of space elevators. If serious global warming set in, I believe we could launch Manhattan Project scale efforts and we could build a very substantial number of space-based solar to microwave generators within 20 or 30 years. Combined with improvements in efficiency and laws banning things such as SUVs, I expect this could stop global warming, and even reverse the trend. However, it seems unlikely to me that people will muster the political will to do this sort of thing, or that the technical knowledge will become widespread quickly enough. Cold fusion would be and much easier and far cheaper alternative, if only it could be made to work reliably. - Jed --=====================_4569796==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Edmund Storms wrote:

I wonder why the article igno= res the fact that deuterium is the only energy source that is in sufficient amount with a sufficiently high energy density?

Actually, I believe the energy density and availability of uranium would be enough to produce all the energy we need for a few thousand years, even with today's highly inefficient fission reactors. Of course there are many problems with uranium as we all know!

Wind energy could supply a large fraction of today's total energy demand. It might even be enough to supply all energy, but future demand is likely to grow, and it would be nice to have enough energy left over for things like gigantic desalination projects. I do not think that wind or uranium could supply enough energy for such purposes. The only source of energy large enough for this, other than deuterium fusion (hot or cold), would be space-based solar energy. The prospects for space-based solar are becoming much more realistic than they used to be, with the likely advent of space elevators. If serious global warming set in, I believe we could launch Manhattan Project scale efforts and we could build a very substantial number of space-based solar to microwave generators within 20 or 30 years. Combined with improvements in efficiency and laws banning things such as SUVs, I expect this could stop global warming, and even reverse the trend. However, it seems unlikely to me that people will muster the political will to do this sort of thing, or that the technical knowledge will become widespread quickly enough. Cold fusion would be and much easier and far cheaper alternative, if only it could be made to work reliably.

- Jed
--=====================_4569796==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 07:59:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NFx32J028935; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:59:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NFx0Fo028871; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:59:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:59:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:00:04 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: OT: The will of God Resent-Message-ID: <1XHmvD.A.BDH.DJZQCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58607 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:32 PM 3/10/5, thomas malloy wrote: >The scenario which is being played out was prophecized 4000 years >ago, ergo it is the will of G-d. The Islamists believe that Allah has >blessed their enterprise too. The fact that Allah isn't god has no >bearing on their behavior, they believe that he is god, and they will >do what the Quran tells them to do. Jews and Christians worship the god of Abraham. Islamists worship the god of Abraham. If it is the same Abraham it is the same god. The difference lies in the words and thus opinions of men, not in the two gods. Peace between these world factions must finally be won in the hearts of humanity, not in the interpretation of scripture. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 08:22:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NGM02J009748; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:22:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NGLred009666; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:21:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:21:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050323112024.02be7640 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:20:33 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Quote from Thomas Henry Huxley Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_6136968==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58608 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_6136968==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed T. H. Huxley quote: I have said that the man of science is the sworn interpreter of nature in the high court of reason. But of what avail is his honest speech, if ignorance is the assessor of the judge, and prejudice the foreman of the jury? I hardly know of a great physical truth, whose universal reception has not been preceded by an epoch in which most estimable persons have maintained that the phenomena investigated were directly dependent on the Divine Will, and that the attempt to investigate them was not only futile, but blasphemous. And there is wonderful tenacity of life about this sort of opposition to physical science. Crushed and maimed in every battle, it yet seems never to be slain; and after a hundred defeats it is at this day as rampant, though happily not so mischievous, as in the time of Galileo. - Lecture at Royal Institution, 10 February 1860 --=====================_6136968==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" T. H. Huxley quote:

I have said that the man of science is the sworn interpreter of nature in the high court of reason. But of what avail is his honest speech, if ignorance is the assessor of the judge, and prejudice the foreman of the jury? I hardly know of a great physical truth, whose universal reception has not been preceded by an epoch in which most estimable persons have maintained that the phenomena investigated were directly dependent on the Divine Will, and that the attempt to investigate them was not only futile, but blasphemous. And there is wonderful tenacity of life about this sort of opposition to physical science. Crushed and maimed in every battle, it yet seems never to be slain; and after a hundred defeats it is at this day as rampant, though happily not so mischievous, as in the time of Galileo.
 
- Lecture at Royal Institution, 10 February 1860
--=====================_6136968==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 08:30:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NGTU2J014304; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:29:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NGTSud014282; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:29:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:29:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42419961.50707 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:29:21 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Oil Crash References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58609 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > Research on runaway global warming, due to > >methane release and high altitude water vapor, is undervalued due to a type >2 error. Failing to asses the risk early enough has a catastrophically >high negative value. The probability of this risk is not zero, as >evidenced by the climate mode of Venus. > > Think positively! I think we can safely discount the Venus scenario. After all, Earth has been through at least one apparently permanent "snowball" phase in which the albedo went 'way up. My understanding is that the recovery path from "snowball Earth" was provided by the accumulation of massive quantities of CO2, released by volcanoes over a period of millenia, which remained in the atmosphere, unused, due to the lack of green plants. The CO2 level finally got high enough (10%? 20%?) to produce a truly ferocious greenhouse effect, which eventually melted the snowball ... and as the albedo dropped, there must have been massive overshoot since all that CO2 would have taken a very long time to break down, leading to a very hot Earth for some period of time. If that "hot Earth" phase wasn't enough to cook the CO2 out of the carbonate rocks, which is the path which leads to a "Venus Earth", then it seems very unlikely that industrial CO2, even combined with arctic methane, could do it. And if the carbonate rocks don't break down then I think we can also safely assume that, in no more than a million years or so, global warming will abate and the coral reefs can start to come back. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 08:42:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NGfk2J022547; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:41:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NGfhDW022516; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:41:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:41:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=YN+OG/gkPEw2lzIPa8831VtnS46v1sw17w+QV2A+MJ0MZeYu0mWIw6eXtpLB3lyIyrWO25n9ko0IgSO6oLElTC1Hdr9yke8RXWN2XfEaY3HuZbHVZ63YwfOMQSuN0UIRC7+zeEM15+SwQg+oAB2ybjVhQf/stiUpzQ/rvy80tQ4= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:41:39 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: water on mars: humor In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <3rrac5$nkuas9 mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58610 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: sorry guys, got this one in an email, couldnt resist. first picture of water on mars. http://www.kiss-ezlink.com/downloads/funny/First%20picture%20of%20water%20on%20mars.jpg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 08:51:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NGob2J027270; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:50:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NGoY2F027244; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:50:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:50:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050323164947.00684504 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:49:47 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58611 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Developing the ...water into wine... theme, I had recourse to one of Beene's old posts and was impressed by how prescient it was. Bits like, for instance. ===================================================== Now, consider the implications of "Dry Ice Blasting." Dry ice blasting is similar to sand blasting, but solid carbon dioxide (CO2) is accelerated in a pressurized air stream to impact a surface. One unique aspect of using dry ice particles is that the particles sublimate (vaporize) upon impact with the surface. The gas expands to eight hundred times the volume of the solid in a few milliseconds in what is effectively a "micro-explosion" at the point of impact. This is not evidence of OU or ZPE coherence. It is mentioned only because it points towards the proven methodology of converting small amounts of heat into larger amounts of usable energy - even at extremely low overall temperatures. And when you substitute *water-ice* micro-spheres for dry ice, you get an expansion ratio that is 25% greater (i.e. 1000:1 rather than 800:1, PLUS a much higher critical pressure - over 3 times higher) ===================================================== I think the problem is probably easier than it looks once one has changed the concepts one is using. I believe that in years to come people will be amazed that it took so long to use the power of ice. I suppose is an analogous situation to the use of steam as a motive power. All very obvious to us know because we have the appropriate concepts to understand what is going on - but in the early days the whole thing must have been very mysterious, even to the inventors. The power of ice is so obvious and so universal - it splits rocks heaves roads, breaks plumbing, sinks Titanics, heaps up glacial moraines, carries erratic blocks [not to be confused with erotic blacks as our geology lecturer would remind us ;-) ] far across the countryside. And yet, no one has yet put it to good use, with the commendable exception of that farmer (I must try and re find the URL). The conceptual changes needed are:- [1]. The inversion of the concept of temperature and the recognition that we are dealing with a external pressure. [2]. The recognition that (as the McGraw Hill Encyclopedia of Physics first showed me) two different gasses at temperature T, say, are not at the same temperature, but at equilibrium temperatures. [3]. The corollary of [2] that the gasses are not at the same Beta-atmosphere pressure but at equilibrium pressures (stresses). [4]. That we are dealing with strain energies under the alias of "pressure" and that, most importantly, we are dealing with balancing TENSION & COMPRESSION STRAIN ENERGIES. Because I am an engineer I am very conscious of the fact the epsilon^2 has both a positive and a negative root, i.e. it can be tensile strain energy or compressive strain energy. Now this doesn't, as far as I know, arise in the case of Kinetic Energy say. Nobody ever suggested to me that one could have negative velocity. You can see how this lacuna has come about. When the idea of moving bodies first arose, the bodies were presumed to move in empty space. The idea of a negative velocity in such a space doesn't arise. For a negative velocity to make sense (or a negative anything else for that matter) there has to be an ambient velocity for the objects velocity to fall below. Now with water, the two B-A pressures must be something like the ionic H-O bond pressure, which I imagine might be the compressive strain, and the hydrogen bond the tensile strain as the first approximation. However, as Chaplin's site shows us, we have a lot more to play with. For example, consider these juicy facts:- ============================================ The equilibrium ratio is all para at zero Kelvin shifting to 3:1 ortho:para at less cold temperatures (>50 K);c the equilibrium taking months to establish itself in ice and nearly an hour in ambient water [410]. Many materials preferentially adsorb para-H2O due to its non-rotation ground state [410]. ============================================ Also, if we think of the bond as being a strut or tie, then quite apart from the axial strain energy we have the differential strain energy arising from the fact that the strut/tie is bent out of its "free" position by Compreture loading. I think the key will turn out to be the rate at which manipulation of the water/ice system takes place - very fast one way - very slow the other - something like that. We can think of 4 degree water as analogous to a prestressed concrete beam just prior to the point of collapse. Now anybody who has had any connection with dismantling pre-stressed concrete structures will know its not a job you can leave in the hands of Paddy Murphy. ;-) There is an enormous amount of tensile and compressive strain energy involved in prestressed units. Careless demolition can release that strain energy with catastrophic consequences. Anybody who has seen someone disembowelled by a whipping pretensioning wire from a long prestressing bed will know exactly what I am talking about. Cheers Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 09:05:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NH542J002072; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:05:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NH4wVX002023; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:04:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:04:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050323170411.00690114 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:04:11 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: water on mars: humor Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58612 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:41 am 23-03-05 -0700, you wrote: >sorry guys, got this one in an email, couldnt resist. first picture >of water on mars. > >http://www.kiss-ezlink.com/downloads/funny/First%20picture%20of%20water%20on%20mars.jpg Well, at least we were spared a picture of water on Uranus. ;-) FG From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 09:28:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NHRT2J013105; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:27:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NHRPOs013080; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:27:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:27:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <013262af-deb6-4a69-8cf3-409d3a4375be> Message-ID: <005201c52fcd$8772dc60$1a41ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050322222857.15958.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> <42417049.7020400@pobox.com> Subject: Re: Oil Crash Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:26:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58613 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: > > > This article says that the Canadian Sands won't save us because you > > can't squeeze it out fast enough: > > > > http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ > > > Fascinating. > > Does anyone here know what the effect of peak oil is likely to be on > global warming? Lack of oil will ruin the economy and lead to WWIII -- > but will it also save the polar bears? Or have CO2 levels already gone > so high that a methane burp followed by a total meltdown is inevitable? Take note of the cover story of the last Scientific American. The author uses deep ice core data to measure the cyclic methane and carbon dioxide content of the atmosphere over may millenia. It is cyclic, the cycles synchronous with variations in the solar illumination due to interactions of the eccentriciey of the the Eartth's orbit and its precession of the rotation axis -- both "cosmic" effect, beyond control of man. Following those cycles, Earth should have entered a cooling phase some 5-8000 years ago, headed for an ice age. That trend has been counterbalanced by the rise of agriculure, producing mathane from rotting crops and increasing carbon dioxide through deforestation. Thus we have ha a nice climate, due the presence of Man. We overdid it with the industrial age and massive use of fossil fuel, and may now face consequences. However, if the "peak oil" scenario is as bas as advertised, then the use of fossil fuels will decline, and we may continue down the cosmic cooling cycle toward another ice age. Thus even though there may be a near term victory for LENR and BLP to arrest the peak in global warming, the ride can still be bumpy. And to think there is a comepetition as to who can build the scariest roller coaster rides :-). Mike Carrell > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 10:58:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NIvf2J006700; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:57:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NIvWPV006588; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:57:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:57:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: OT: The will of God Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:58:40 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: <2a96aB.A.wmB.awbQCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58614 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: J. Swift writes: Our histories of six thousand moons make no mention of any other regions than the two great empires of Lilliput and Blefuscu. Which two mighty powers have, as I was going to tell you, been engaged in a most obstinate war for six-and-thirty moons past. It began upon the following occasion. It is allowed on all hands, that the primitive way of breaking eggs, before we eat them, was upon the larger end; but his present majesty's grandfather, while he was a boy, going to eat an egg, and breaking it according to the ancient practice, happened to cut one of his fingers. Whereupon the emperor his father published an edict, commanding all his subjects, upon great penalties, to break the smaller end of their eggs. The people so highly resented this law, that our histories tell us, there have been six rebellions raised on that account; wherein one emperor lost his life, and another his crown. These civil commotions were constantly fomented by the monarchs of Blefuscu; and when they were quelled, the exiles always fled for refuge to that empire. It is computed that eleven thousand persons have at several times suffered death, rather than submit to break their eggs at the smaller end. Many hundred large volumes have been published upon this controversy: but the books of the Big-endians have been long forbidden, and the whole party rendered incapable by law of holding employments. During the course of these troubles, the emperors of Blefusca did frequently expostulate by their ambassadors, accusing us of making a schism in religion, by offending against a fundamental doctrine of our great prophet Lustrog, in the fifty-fourth chapter of the Blundecral (which is their Alcoran). This, however, is thought to be a mere strain upon the text; for the words are these: 'that all true believers break their eggs at the convenient end.' And which is the convenient end, seems, in my humble opinion to be left to every man's conscience, or at least in the power of the chief magistrate to determine. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 11:00 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The will of God At 1:32 PM 3/10/5, thomas malloy wrote: >The scenario which is being played out was prophecized 4000 years >ago, ergo it is the will of G-d. The Islamists believe that Allah has >blessed their enterprise too. The fact that Allah isn't god has no >bearing on their behavior, they believe that he is god, and they will >do what the Quran tells them to do. Jews and Christians worship the god of Abraham. Islamists worship the god of Abraham. If it is the same Abraham it is the same god. The difference lies in the words and thus opinions of men, not in the two gods. Peace between these world factions must finally be won in the hearts of humanity, not in the interpretation of scripture. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 13:49:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NLn1Bg008356; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:49:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NLmx9o008331; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:48:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:48:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Detroit Pushing Diesel Hybrids Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:48:42 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050322222252.56513.qmail web51709.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050322222252.56513.qmail web51709.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2NLmqBg008210 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58615 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:22:51 -0800 (PST): Hi, [snip] >For $8k extra per vehicle: > >http://wired.com/news/autotech/0%2C2554%2C66949%2C00.html "Earlier this year, GM unveiled the Opel Astra Diesel Hybrid, a sedan concept vehicle the company claims would increase fuel economy by 25 percent over a comparable diesel car, or approximately 59 miles per gallon. The vehicle uses a hybrid system with two electric motors being co-developed with DaimlerChrysler, according to GM." Note that the people at http://www.dolphinaci.com/technology/technology.html are already getting 90+ mpg in some tests, and outperforming the Prius in all tests, and all they have done is somewhat modify a conventional engine, hence the cost of the vehicle could remain about the same. The only thing preventing this from being adopted across the automobile industry is the will to do it. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 13:59:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NLwrBg015335; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:58:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NLwcxD015140; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:58:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:58:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=nplnuWAz08RqX0YKsWwj0vjLlNXVeGDk27pBAzaQq+paHxOTzGs71mHNDnn3iLS7pwtSgMVNXwwzYanHrwYUXpRalIpw16EHPJG/g5oEvV6//QBefR6GOTGS7Dw/7IJ+DlKIuih5fOa6ADeta17jvIqO1f7531B6oqADQqiBgkg= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:57:36 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Detroit Pushing Diesel Hybrids In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <20050322222252.56513.qmail web51709.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2NLwSBg015009 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58616 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: on the issue of fuel economy, a friend of mine just made a good point. there are an estimated 170 million cars on the road. if one in ten (seems likely) have a one ounce "support the troops" sticker, we are talking about a bit over a million pounds of metal being shipped around daily. On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:48:42 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:22:51 > -0800 (PST): > Hi, > [snip] > >For $8k extra per vehicle: > > > >http://wired.com/news/autotech/0%2C2554%2C66949%2C00.html > > "Earlier this year, GM unveiled the Opel Astra Diesel Hybrid, a > sedan concept vehicle the company claims would increase fuel > economy by 25 percent over a comparable diesel car, or > approximately 59 miles per gallon. The vehicle uses a hybrid > system with two electric motors being co-developed with > DaimlerChrysler, according to GM." > > Note that the people at > http://www.dolphinaci.com/technology/technology.html are already > getting 90+ mpg in some tests, and outperforming the Prius in all > tests, and all they have done is somewhat modify a conventional > engine, hence the cost of the vehicle could remain about the same. > The only thing preventing this from being adopted across the > automobile industry is the will to do it. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > All SPAM goes in the trash unread. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 14:17:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NMGaR2026478; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:16:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NMGXhu026423; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:16:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:16:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050323171347.02ac3a28 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:16:12 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Detroit Pushing Diesel Hybrids In-Reply-To: References: <20050322222252.56513.qmail web51709.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_20956781==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58617 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_20956781==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >The only thing preventing this from being adopted across the >automobile industry is the will to do it. And politics. And -- I suppose -- pressure from the oil industry. But if the price of gasoline goes up to $5 per gallon these impediments will vanish. - Jed --=====================_20956781==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

The only thing preventing this from being adopted across the
automobile industry is the will to do it.

And politics. And -- I suppose -- pressure from the oil industry. But if the price of gasoline goes up to $5 per gallon these impediments will vanish.

- Jed
--=====================_20956781==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 14:28:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NMRmR2031697; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:27:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NMReRB031640; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:27:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:27:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4241ED4A.9020202 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:27:22 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: leaking pen CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Detroit Pushing Diesel Hybrids References: <20050322222252.56513.qmail web51709.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58618 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: >on the issue of fuel economy, a friend of mine just made a good point. > there are an estimated 170 million cars on the road. if one in ten >(seems likely) have a one ounce >"support the troops" sticker, we are talking about a bit over a >million pounds of metal being shipped around daily. > Entertaining idea, but a typical sticker doesn't weigh an ounce. More like a gram, which would cut that million pounds down to about 30,000 pounds. On the other hand, if you throw in the energy cost to manufacture all the American flags being flown at gas stations ever since the beginning of the war, the numbers start to look pretty impressive, I think. And then there are the pickup trucks with the flags plastered over their back windshields. If we add the cost of accidents caused by reduced visibility out the back ... well, whatever... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 14:37:45 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NMb0Zm004320; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:37:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NMaskV004249; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:36:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:36:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050323173009.029f36f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:36:31 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Correspondence with M. Savinar Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_22175531==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58619 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_22175531==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote to the fellow who runs the web page under discussion here: http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/. I introduced him to LENR-CANR.org, and you respond cordially. Attached is our correspondence. I hope he does not mind my copying it here. He strikes me as being somewhat alarmist. I do not think a severe crisis will occur in the first world in five years. As for the Third World, there is already an energy crisis and there always has been one. Anyway, $2 or $3 per gallon gasoline will strike many people as a crisis. Frankly, it is our best hope for progress in CF, and touches I deplore the suffering it will cause among poor people, I am glad to see these high prices. My only fear is that the high prices will *not* trigger a panic, and the public will gradually get used to the idea instead. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Jed, Even if cold fusion comes online today, we are still left with the problem of retroftting a $45 trillion dollar (and growing) global infrastructure to run on CF - and to do so inside of 2-5 years. Ultimately, it would give us access to an energy source even denser than oil. Do you really want humanity to have access to something like that? Consider the consequences to the species if that was to happen. Oil was a lottery ticket. When you exhaust the winnings from a lottery ticket, the solution is not to go look for an even bigger jackpot. Best, Matt - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - MY RESPONSE: You wrote: >Even if f cold fusion comes online today, we are still >left with the problem of retroftting a $45 trillion >dollar (and growing) global infrastructure to run on CF >- and to do so inside of 2-5 years. That could not be done! It would take at least 10 years, in a Manhattan Project style crash program. However, it would not take 30 to 40 years, because the engineering performance of cold fusion is similar to combustion, and because cold fusion devices are remarkably simple. A few of them have already demonstrated power levels and power density high enough to be practical. While I agree with you there is a crisis, I think that we have somewhat more than 5 years. Conventional technologies such as hybrid engines and variable toll roads can greatly reduce our present use of oil, and stretch out supplies. I have considerably experience dealing with Japan because I work as a translator from Japanese into English. Japan and Italy are the two most energy-efficient countries, and we could improve our efficiency simply by purchasing technology from them. I am well aware of differences in transportation systems, average commuting distance, and so on, but that still leaves much room for improvement. >Ultimately, it would give us access to an energy source >even denser than oil. Do you really want humanity to >have access to something like that? Yes, I do, even though I agree it might be a problem. Regarding this issue, I wrote: ". . . [W]e can easily destroy the earth with the technology we already have. We do not need cold fusion, nuclear bombs or any advanced technology. We are using fire, man's oldest tool, to destroy the rain forests. The ancient Chinese, Greeks and Romans deforested large areas and turned millions of hectares of productive cropland into desert. The destructive side effects of technology in 2000 BC were as bad as they are today. Cold fusion surely will enhance people's ability to commit everything from public nuisances to continental-scale mayhem. Gigantic cold fusion powered boom boxes and laser light shows may blast popular music and bright lights into neighborhoods, beaches and pristine National Parks. People may be tempted to drive SUVs the size of Mack Trucks, since they will not have to pay for gasoline. . . ." That is in Chapter 19 of a free e-book I wrote, "Cold Fusion and the Future," 186 pages, available here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf It was recommended by Arthur C. Clarke and by some of the world's leading electrochemists, and a poet friend of mine called it "lyrical." Cold fusion has eclectic appeal. . . . You might enjoy the photos of Japan's most notorious pollution at the petrochemical refinery in Yokkaichi, on page 125. Perhaps "enjoy" is the wrong word -- you might be interested in seeing these pictures, and the ones on the next page showing schoolchildren gargling to avoid the effects of the air pollution. >Consider the consequences to the species if that was to happen. I have thought long and hard about that very subject! That is not to say I am right but I have considered it in depth over the last 16 years. Also I am greatly concerned about other species, and invasive species. I wrote a chapter about that. - Jed --=====================_22175531==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote to the fellow who runs the web page under discussion here: http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/. I introduced him to LENR-CANR.org, and you respond cordially. Attached is our correspondence. I hope he does not mind my copying it here. He strikes me as being somewhat alarmist. I do not think a severe crisis will occur in the first world in five years. As for the Third World, there is already an energy crisis and there always has been one.

Anyway, $2 or $3 per gallon gasoline will strike many people as a crisis. Frankly, it is our best hope for progress in CF, and touches I deplore the suffering it will cause among poor people, I am glad to see these high prices. My only fear is that the high prices will *not* trigger a panic, and the public will gradually get used to the idea instead.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Jed,

Even if cold fusion comes online today, we are still left with the problem of retroftting a $45 trillion
dollar (and growing) global infrastructure to run on CF - and to do so inside of 2-5 years.

Ultimately, it would give us access to an energy source even denser than oil. Do you really want humanity to
have access to something like that? Consider the consequences to the species if that was to happen.

Oil was a lottery ticket.  When you exhaust the winnings from a lottery ticket, the solution is not to
go look for an even bigger jackpot.

Best,

Matt

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MY RESPONSE:

You wrote:

Even if f cold fusion comes online today, we are still
left with the problem of retroftting a $45 trillion
dollar (and growing) global infrastructure to run on CF
- and to do so inside of 2-5 years.

That could not be done! It would take at least 10 years, in a Manhattan Project style crash program. However, it would not take 30 to 40 years, because the engineering performance of cold fusion is similar to combustion, and because cold fusion devices are remarkably simple. A few of them have already demonstrated power levels and power density high enough to be practical.

While I agree with you there is a crisis, I think that we have somewhat more than 5 years. Conventional technologies such as hybrid engines and variable toll roads can greatly reduce our present use of oil, and stretch out supplies. I have considerably experience dealing with Japan because I work as a translator from Japanese into English. Japan and Italy are the two most energy-efficient countries, and we could improve our efficiency simply by purchasing technology from them. I am well aware of differences in transportation systems, average commuting distance, and so on, but that still leaves much room for improvement.


Ultimately, it would give us access to an energy source
even denser than oil. Do you really want humanity to
have access to something like that?

Yes, I do, even though I agree it might be a problem. Regarding this issue, I wrote:

". . . [W]e can easily destroy the earth with the technology we already have. We do not need cold fusion, nuclear bombs or any advanced technology. We are using fire, man’s oldest tool, to destroy the rain forests. The ancient Chinese, Greeks and Romans deforested large areas and turned millions of hectares of productive cropland into desert. The destructive side effects of technology in 2000 BC were as bad as they are today.

Cold fusion surely will enhance people’s ability to commit everything from public nuisances to continental-scale mayhem. Gigantic cold fusion powered boom boxes and laser light shows may blast popular music and bright lights into neighborhoods, beaches and pristine National Parks. People may be tempted to drive SUVs the size of Mack Trucks, since they will not have to pay for gasoline. . . ."

That is in Chapter 19 of a free e-book I wrote, "Cold Fusion and the Future," 186 pages, available here:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf

It was recommended by Arthur C. Clarke and by some of the world's leading electrochemists, and a poet friend of mine called it "lyrical." Cold fusion has eclectic appeal. . . .
 
You might enjoy the photos of Japan's most notorious pollution at the petrochemical refinery in Yokkaichi, on page 125. Perhaps "enjoy" is the wrong word -- you might be interested in seeing these pictures, and the ones on the next page showing schoolchildren gargling to avoid the effects of the air pollution.


Consider the consequences to the species if that was to happen.

I have thought long and hard about that very subject! That is not to say I am right but I have considered it in depth over the last 16 years. Also I am greatly concerned about other species, and invasive species. I wrote a chapter about that.

- Jed
 --=====================_22175531==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 14:44:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NMhbZm008915; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:43:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NMhZal008871; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:43:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:43:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050323173733.02acf7d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:42:59 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Detroit Pushing Diesel Hybrids In-Reply-To: <4241ED4A.9020202 pobox.com> References: <20050322222252.56513.qmail web51709.mail.yahoo.com> <4241ED4A.9020202 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_22575500==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <4ufWtB.A.YKC.VEfQCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58620 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_22575500==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >Entertaining idea, but a typical sticker doesn't weigh an ounce. More >like a gram, which would cut that million pounds down to about 30,000 pounds. Only a gram? 10 sheets of 8 x 11.5" paper weigh 46 grams. A 3 page letter in an envelope weighs an ounce. I have not weighed a sticker, but aren't they magnetic? The stick on magnet business cards I have seen are pretty heavy. I do not have one handy . . . >On the other hand, if you throw in the energy cost to manufacture all the >American flags being flown at gas stations ever since the beginning of the >war, the numbers start to look pretty impressive, I think. I'll bet the biggest "energy flag cost" is the cost of all those flags on cars flapping in the wind. Fortunately, they have mostly frayed and you do not see them often anymore. - Jed --=====================_22575500==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

Entertaining idea, but a typical sticker doesn't weigh an ounce.  More like a gram, which would cut that million pounds down to about 30,000 pounds.

Only a gram? 10 sheets of 8 x 11.5" paper weigh 46 grams. A 3 page letter in an envelope weighs an ounce. I have not weighed a sticker, but aren't they magnetic? The stick on magnet business cards I have seen are pretty heavy. I do not have one handy . . .


On the other hand, if you throw in the energy cost to manufacture all the American flags being flown at gas stations ever since the beginning of the war, the numbers start to look pretty impressive, I think.

I'll bet the biggest "energy flag cost" is the cost of all those flags on cars flapping in the wind. Fortunately, they have mostly frayed and you do not see them often anymore.

- Jed
--=====================_22575500==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 14:50:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NMnLZm016981; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:49:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NMnHva016943; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:49:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:49:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050323145456.03399fe0 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:55:36 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Fwd: Transmutation report Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:59:26 +0100 >From: Haiko Lietz > >Dear all, > >This email is to let you know about my report on MHI's transmutation >experiments on German National Radio. > >Incidentally it was aired on today's 16th anniversary of the announcement >of cold fusion. > >German article and on-demand audio are here: > >http://www.dradio.de/dlf/sendungen/forschak/359485/ > >Steve Krivit has the English version on his site: > >http://www.newenergytimes.com/news/2005Mitsubishi-Answer-Lietz.htm > >I deliberately headlined my article "Mitsubishi's Answer to Nuclear Waste" >as a response to the call "European Union needs a clear answer on nuclear >waste" by European Energy Commissioner Andris Piebalgs: > >http://europa.eu.int/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=SPEECH/05/122&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en > >Best regards > >Haiko Lietz >Science Reporter >Germany From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 15:07:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NN6tZm001917; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:06:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NN6rHg001898; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:06:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:06:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050323175003.029f36f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:06:35 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20050321194404.052df008 mail.dlsi.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050321194404.052df008 mail.dlsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_23980265==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_23980265==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Steven Krivit wrote: >Hey Jed, > >Congratulations on your progress on the Wiki CF page. You have been >surprisingly diplomatic ;) . I also respect the time you put in as >evidenced by the discussion page. I tried to be diplomatic. But I must say, the Wikipedia CF article there is an unholy mess, and I do not have the energy to fix it properly. It is a mishmash of nonsense and real information. It gives you new respect for academic traditions such as peer review and the PhD exam. I wonder how many other articles in that encyclopedia are unreliable? I suspect that most useful information in most books is a mixture of truth and falsehood, sense and nonsense. You can be pretty sure that an article in an Almanac describing the structure of state governments or the history of the Post Office is correct, but valuable information about nature or controversial new discoveries will probably always be a stew of confusion, emotion and politics. The Scientific American still cannot bring itself to write the simple truth about early aviation and the Wright Brothers. Their 2003 review was nearly as absurd as their famous comments back in 1906. Gene Mallove summed it up beautifully in his quote from Emilo Segre, F. F. I, p. 22, describing the work of Hahn and Meitner: "Their early papers are a mixture of error and truth as complicated as a mixture of fission products resulting from the bombardments. Such confusion was to remain for a long time a characteristic of much of the work on uranium." >2. You've established a method, using references, that is acceptable to >the Wiki community. As you and others will note, your work has not been >defaced or challenged. So far. There is no telling when a skeptic will come and erase it. There is no control and no recourse. That is the main reason I will not put any effort into correcting all the other mistakes. >So there is hope. I'll see what I can do to help, a little bit here and >there. Maybe we can make the Wiki page the best, most accurate, and most >progressive reference for CF after all. Perhaps it will be the best for the general public, but for scientists nothing can beat original sources. - Jed --=====================_23980265==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Steven Krivit wrote:

Hey Jed,

Congratulations on your progress on the Wiki CF page. You have been surprisingly diplomatic ;) . I also respect the time you put in as evidenced by the discussion page.

I tried to be diplomatic. But I must say, the Wikipedia CF article there is an unholy mess, and I do not have the energy to fix it properly. It is a mishmash of nonsense and real information. It gives you new respect for academic traditions such as peer review and the PhD exam.

I wonder how many other articles in that encyclopedia are unreliable? I suspect that most useful information in most books is a mixture of truth and falsehood, sense and nonsense. You can be pretty sure that an article in an Almanac describing the structure of state governments or the history of the Post Office is correct, but valuable information about nature or controversial new discoveries will probably always be a stew of confusion, emotion and politics. The Scientific American still cannot bring itself to write the simple truth about early aviation and the Wright Brothers. Their 2003 review was nearly as absurd as their famous comments back in 1906. Gene Mallove summed it up beautifully in his quote from Emilo Segre, F. F. I, p. 22, describing the work of Hahn and Meitner:

"Their early papers are a mixture of error and truth as complicated as a mixture of fission products resulting from the bombardments. Such confusion was to remain for a long time a characteristic of much of the work on uranium."


2. You've established a method, using references, that is acceptable to the Wiki community. As you and others will note, your work has not been defaced or challenged.

So far. There is no telling when a skeptic will come and erase it. There is no control and no recourse. That is the main reason I will not put any effort into correcting all the other mistakes.


So there is hope.  I'll see what I can do to help, a little bit here and there. Maybe we can make the Wiki page the best, most accurate, and most progressive reference for CF after all.

Perhaps it will be the best for the general public, but for scientists nothing can beat original sources.

- Jed
--=====================_23980265==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 15:22:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NNLcZm009484; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:21:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NNLWZ0009416; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:21:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:21:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Quote from Thomas Henry Huxley X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050323232105.EEAAC1BCE6 xprdmailfe23.nwk.excite.com> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:21:05 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- On Wed 03/23, Jed Rothwell < jedrothwell mindspring.com > wrote: > T. H. Huxley quote: > I have said that the man of science is the sworn interpreter of > nature inthe high court of reason. But of what avail is his honest > speech, if ignorance is the assessor of the judge, and prejudice > the foreman of the jury? I hardly know of a great physical truth, > whose universal reception has not been preceded by an epoch in > which most estimable persons have maintained that the > phenomena investigated were directly dependent on the Divine > Will, and that the attempt to investigate them was not only futile, > but blasphemous. And there is wonderful tenacity of life about this > sort of opposition to physical science. Crushed and maimed in > every battle, it yet seems never to be slain; and after a hundred > defeats it is at this day as rampant, though happily not so > mischievous, as in the time of Galileo. > - Lecture at Royal Institution, 10 February 1860 We live in a coarse and less eloquent age. Let me provide a more prosaic and contemporary translation of the above: "The main and essential product of the human race is bullshit." M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 15:22:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2NNM8Zm009805; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:22:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2NNLsmD009621; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:21:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:21:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050323152020.033a2b48 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:28:03 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050323175003.029f36f0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050321194404.052df008 mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20050321194404.052df008 mail.dlsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Perhaps it will be the best for the general public, but for scientists >nothing can beat original sources. True. Scott Chubb and I had a very pleasant talk with Jack Sandweiss, editor of Physical Review Letters, and also Prof. at Yale University yesterday at the APS conference. He seemed truly open-minded. Though the bottom line came to this - he, and I suspect others like him, is busy - and doesn't have much motivation to take the time to inquire more deeply about CF. Considering the low probability (in the minds of honest skeptics) of cf, what will motivate scientists to even look (through the telescope)? We have the data. Now, how do we get their interest? Perhaps when more papers get published, perhaps not. Perhaps the interest will be driven by commerce and the science community will be very surprised one day. Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 16:02:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2O01jYe030102; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:01:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2O01aUC030029; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:01:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:01:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050323183322.02c5bbb8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:01:16 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20050323152020.033a2b48 mail.dlsi.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050321194404.052df008 mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20050321194404.052df008 mail.dlsi.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20050323152020.033a2b48 mail.dlsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_27262625==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <-CRWoB.A.JVH.fNgQCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_27262625==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Steven Krivit wrote: >Considering the low probability (in the minds of honest skeptics) of cf, >what will motivate scientists to even look (through the telescope)? Nothing will motivate them and it is a waste of time trying to motivate them. >We have the data. >Now, how do we get their interest? You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. If the data itself does not excite interest in a scientist, nothing can be done. You should go look for another scientist. I hope there are enough open-minded scientists in the world to make a critical mass and get the field moving. >Perhaps when more papers get published, perhaps not. Not. You could publish 6,000 or 10,000 more papers, but I do not think it would have an effect on the attitudes of those who express no interest in the field. Most of them figure it is simply not their business. No amount of proven no number of papers change the mind of a harsh skeptic. My impression is that most skeptics are extreme conformists. They will parrot whatever the "authoritative" sources such as Nature, the APS or Scientific American say. They will not change their minds until these mainstream organizations endorse CF. There is no point to trying to convince them. There is no point in discussing the matter with them or confronting them in any way. Prof. Steve Jones, for example, to this day will not admit that a *single experiment has ever produced convincing excess heat*. He dismisses all excess heat results, including McKubre, Storms, Miles, Mizuno and all of the others documented at LENR-CANR.org. He says -- and I am sure he sincerely believes -- that they are all experimental error or all so close to the margin they are useless. He and others are also pulling strings to prevent any further experiments involving calorimetry. That is why the DoE report came out so strongly against calorimetry. This is not because they feel unsure of their own beliefs or they secretly worry they might be proven wrong -- it is because they are absolutely, positively certain they are right, and they view any questioning or deviation from their beliefs to be an outrage and a disgrace to science. From their point of view, the search for excess heat from cold fusion is as absurd as a test to see whether a cow really can jump from the surface of the earth over the moon. It is manifestly impossible, and anyone who does not understand that is a crackpot, not a scientist. It is fruitless waste of time talking to such people. It is like trying to convince a religious fanatic of the theory of evolution. You have to go after open-minded people and fence-sitters. I believe there is some hope of success because people have downloaded more than 300,000 papers from LENR-CANR.org, and we get new visitors every day. There must be many people out there who are interested in the subject and will take a careful look at it. We must concentrate on those people and ignore the others. >Perhaps the interest will be driven by commerce and the science community >will be very surprised one day. Given the difficulties of replicating cold fusion, and the unpredictable power output from the reaction, I think it is very unlikely that corporations or venture capitalists will look at it. They have a very short horizon. Politicians are even worse. The other day I read that it is standard White House policy to deal with issues on a "90-day horizon" -- i.e., it is the policy of the administration to ignore any crisis, legislative initiativeor opportunity that will not reach fruition (I mean pan out) within 90 days. Many corporations are run on this basis nowadays as well, with an eye to the stock market. Before corporations look at cold fusion, researchers must first learn to control the reaction. Our audience now is limited to researchers -- mainly academic researchers. This may seem pessimistic, but it is not necessarily so because there may be enough academic researchers out there to rescue the field. - Jed --=====================_27262625==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steven Krivit wrote:

Considering the low probabili= ty (in the minds of honest skeptics) of cf, what will motivate scientists to even look (through the telescope)?

Nothing will motivate them and it is a waste of time trying to motivate them.


We have the data.
Now, how do we get their interest?

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. If the data itself does not excite interest in a scientist, nothing can be done. You should go look for another scientist. I hope there are enough open-minded scientists in the world to make a critical mass and get the field moving.


Perhaps when m= ore papers get published, perhaps not.

Not. You could publish 6,000 or 10,000 more papers, but I do not think it would have an effect on the attitudes of those who express no interest in the field. Most of them figure it is simply not their business. No amount of proven no number of papers change the mind of a harsh skeptic. My impression is that most skeptics are extreme conformists. They will parrot whatever the "authoritative" sources such as Nature, the APS or Scientific American say. They will not change their minds until these mainstream organizations endorse CF. There is no point to trying to convince them. There is no point in discussing the matter with them or confronting them in any way. Prof. Steve Jones, for example, to this day will not admit that a *single experiment has ever produced convincing excess heat*. He dismisses all excess heat results, including McKubre, Storms, Miles, Mizuno and all of the others documented at LENR-CANR.org. He says -- and I am sure he sincerely believes -- that they are all experimental error or all so close to the margin they are useless. He and others are also pulling strings to prevent any further experiments involving calorimetry. That is why the DoE report came out so strongly against calorimetry. This is not because they feel unsure of their own beliefs or they secretly worry they might be proven wrong -- it is because they are absolutely, positively certain they are right, and they view any questioning or deviation from their beliefs to be an outrage and a disgrace to science. From their point of view, the search for excess heat from cold fusion is as absurd as a test to see whether a cow really can jump from the surface of the earth over the moon. It is manifestly impossible, and anyone who does not understand that is a crackpot, not a scientist.

It is fruitless waste of time talking to such people. It is like trying to convince a religious fanatic of the theory of evolution. You have to go after open-minded people and fence-sitters.

I believe there is some hope of success because people have downloaded more than 300,000 papers from LENR-CANR.org, and we get new visitors every day. There must be many people out there who are interested in the subject and will take a careful look at it. We must concentrate on those people and ignore the others.


Perhaps the interest will be driven by commerce and the science community will be very surprised one day.

Given the difficulties of replicating cold fusion, and the unpredictable power output from the reaction, I think it is very unlikely that corporations or venture capitalists will look at it. They have a very short horizon. Politicians are even worse. The other day I read that it is standard White House policy to deal with issues on a "90-day horizon" -- i.e., it is the policy of the administration to ignore any crisis, legislative initiativeor opportunity that will not reach fruition (I mean pan out) within 90 days. Many corporations are run on this basis nowadays as well, with an eye to the stock market.

Before corporations look at cold fusion, researchers must first learn to control the reaction. Our audience now is limited to researchers -- mainly academic researchers.

This may seem pessimistic, but it is not necessarily so because there may be enough academic researchers out there to rescue the field.

- Jed
--=====================_27262625==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 17:25:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2O1POYe007676; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:25:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2O1PLti007655; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:25:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:25:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050323173020.033a2dc8 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:31:41 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Wikipedia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, Pessimistic, yes. Logical and realistic, yes. Perhaps we need miracle #4, whatever that will be. Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 17:54:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2O1sNdf021563; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:54:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2O1sF2K021508; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:54:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:54:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:55:14 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Oil Crash Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:29 AM 3/23/5, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >> Research on runaway global warming, due to >> >>methane release and high altitude water vapor, is undervalued due to a type >>2 error. Failing to asses the risk early enough has a catastrophically >>high negative value. The probability of this risk is not zero, as >>evidenced by the climate mode of Venus. >> >> >Think positively! > >I think we can safely discount the Venus scenario. There is stron evidence we can not safely discount the Venus scenario (see below.) >After all, Earth has >been through at least one apparently permanent "snowball" phase in which >the albedo went 'way up. My understanding is that the recovery path >from "snowball Earth" was provided by the accumulation of massive >quantities of CO2, released by volcanoes over a period of millenia, >which remained in the atmosphere, unused, due to the lack of green >plants. The CO2 level finally got high enough (10%? 20%?) to produce a >truly ferocious greenhouse effect, which eventually melted the snowball >... and as the albedo dropped, there must have been massive overshoot >since all that CO2 would have taken a very long time to break down, >leading to a very hot Earth for some period of time. The come-back scenario I read was based in part on volcanic ash deposited on the ice ball reducing the albedo. > >If that "hot Earth" phase wasn't enough to cook the CO2 out of the >carbonate rocks, which is the path which leads to a "Venus Earth", then >it seems very unlikely that industrial CO2, even combined with arctic >methane, could do it. That scenario did not produce sufficient high altitude water vapor. High altitude water vapor is the ultimate killer, not CO2 or methane. Increased concentrations of CO2 and methane warm things up enough to get the water vapor into the stratisphere, but it is the water vapor that causes the runaway. There is a gigantic supply of water. It is just a matter of tipping the concentration balance. We currently dump a lot of water vapor directly into the stratisphere via jet engine. A large methane release will directly increase upper atmospheric water vapor via the gradual oxidation of the methane. Methane is lighter than air. > >And if the carbonate rocks don't break down then I think we can also >safely assume that, in no more than a million years or so, global >warming will abate and the coral reefs can start to come back. The Venus runaway greenhouse effect was not initially caused by CO2, but rather high altitude water vapor, which has a very powerful greenhouse effect. Try googleing: venus greenhouse water vapor Especially check out from that result: There is an area over the Pacific already in a *measurable* runaway regime. Melting of the polar ice caps and vast methane releases already underway may be enough to tip the balance to a clearly measurable global runaway regime. In my book, that means that we are currently in a runaway regime, a regime in which global warming will runaway unless drastic action is taken. This is not the definition of "runaway greenhouse effect" used in the second URL above, but it is a definition that makes more sense to me. If the progression will not stop without drastic intervention, then to me that is "runaway". Any other definition only clouds the issue. I was very happy to see all that information online. It was not available when I posted on the subject in 1998. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 19:52:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2O3q043012844; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:52:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2O3pg2l012734; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:51:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:51:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4242394C.2010309 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:51:40 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Detroit Pushing Diesel Hybrids References: <20050322222252.56513.qmail web51709.mail.yahoo.com> <4241ED4A.9020202@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050323173733.02acf7d0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050323173733.02acf7d0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> Entertaining idea, but a typical sticker doesn't weigh an ounce. >> More like a gram, which would cut that million pounds down to about >> 30,000 pounds. > > > Only a gram? 10 sheets of 8 x 11.5" paper weigh 46 grams. A 3 page > letter in an envelope weighs an ounce. I have not weighed a sticker, > but aren't they magnetic? No, the ones you see on cars are more like decals -- they're just a film of plastic, or possibly paper, with sticky stuff on one side. Probably more than a gram, it's true :-) but not a whole lot more, I'd guess. The Fish Wars had the potential to be more expensive, I suppose, since the bumper-fish (both Darwin and IXOYE fish) appear to be rather thick plastic plaques. I kept meaning to get one of each, and let them fight it out on the back of our car, but I waited too long and now the back of the car's completely covered with political bumper stickers, so both fish lost out. > I'll bet the biggest "energy flag cost" is the cost of all those flags > on cars flapping in the wind. Fortunately, they have mostly frayed and > you do not see them often anymore. Yeah -- I wish I could say the same thing for the gas-station flags, and the flags in restaurants, and the flag in the barber shop, and the flags at the copy shop, and.... I suppose they'd be useful if one occasionally forgot what country one was in, and needed to be reminded, but that's not a problem I find I have. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 23 20:07:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2O47J43023813; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:07:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2O47HsQ023800; Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:07:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:07:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42423CF1.2070701 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:07:13 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wikipedia References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050321194404.052df008 mail.dlsi.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050323175003.029f36f0@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050323175003.029f36f0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <93YJvB.A.1zF.0zjQCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Steven Krivit wrote: > >> 2. You've established a method, using references, that is acceptable >> to the Wiki community. As you and others will note, your work has not >> been defaced or challenged. > > > So far. There is no telling when a skeptic will come and erase it. > There is no control and no recourse. Say what? Is this the same Wikipedia I'm familiar with? There is control and there is recourse. A page which someone deletes for personal reasons can be retrieved. To get a page taken down permanently, you actually need to go through a somewhat formal process in which the community gets to vote on it. What's more, the Wiki community is strongly opposed to graffiti on the pages: a page which is defaced can also be retrieved. The 2004 election fraud page was a real flash point for a while, and one or two people tried -- at least twice -- to get it taken down, but the voting was in favor of keeping it, so it stayed. It was also defaced and subsequently retrieved, at least once. It's still there today; I just checked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U.S._Election_controversies_and_irregularities Anarchopedia has _no_ control and _no_ recourse: like all anarchists, they depend on the innate goodness of humankind to keep the pages sane. But Wikipedia has a good size chunk of (volunteer) bureaucracy which gets involved in any attempt at deleting content. At least, that's my impression. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 02:00:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2OA0CbV013728; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 02:00:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2O9xpPQ013556; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 01:59:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 01:59:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003201c53058$31531170$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <20050322222252.56513.qmail web51709.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Detroit Pushing Diesel Hybrids Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:55:33 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote:- <> Be careful about believing these results from one of the Joseph LaStella stable of companies... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 07:52:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2OFqAbV012819; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:52:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2OFpaQT012153; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:51:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:51:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050324155118.18520.qmail web81110.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:51:18 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Detroit Pushing Diesel Hybrids To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Nick Palmer wrote: > Be careful about believing these results from one of the Joseph LaStella stable of companies... I absolutely agree !! This is DISinformation, pure and simple, and poorly done to boot. AND it is not even Detroit, by 1500 miles. Without any doubt this is little more than crock of BS, if not a corporate setup for something which involves large sums of venture-capital changing hands, as there is zero new technology going on here .... This is basically a Yanmar with the manifolds polished. Jones However. the underlying concept of an improved diesel hybrid is valid, and biodiesel is valid - (these are the 'hooks' this guy is using to try for a big catch) but there are really NO improvement here that wasn't around in 1975 - and this "pulse charge" is a plagiarized copy-cat of something GM patented 30 years ago, and they probably copied that from what stock car racers were already doing. When you see the "safe harbor" provision featured prominently on the home page, you should know this is about $$-advancement for a stock promoter, who has been there, done that, and been sued (superBAT)... and not about energy improvements. Their "true color" is not" green," and their dolphin-logo is looking more like a "slug-trail" than a symbol for forward-thinking ecology. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 08:51:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2OGovbV020053; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:50:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2OGopK5019993; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:50:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:50:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=azUx5we758SIhcIMuvkd3iWVAQmKfMbnwSCUMSrwUlyuOHLx4yBJqBoCGJuRUV4PrSztjeJwbnmxAtZyboz1RvpNheS4ssgb+D1rO2mML7fmzR79MSgCAUPzj1+Z/vhrIcnjW4cfocPw4bjcu6uUWzuRKaP7ToyhD/UOdNu6j+4= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:50:38 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Detroit Pushing Diesel Hybrids In-Reply-To: <4242394C.2010309 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <20050322222252.56513.qmail web51709.mail.yahoo.com> <4241ED4A.9020202 pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050323173733.02acf7d0 pop.mindspring.com> <4242394C.2010309 pobox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2OGojbV019875 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: no, the support the troop ribbons are all magnetic. next time you see one, peel it off to see. (or, do like i do. i printed up several 8x10 sheets of bumpersticker paper with small sections that say bring them home now. i simply put that on their car right underneath support our troops. ) On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:51:40 -0500, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > >> Entertaining idea, but a typical sticker doesn't weigh an ounce. > >> More like a gram, which would cut that million pounds down to about > >> 30,000 pounds. > > > > > > Only a gram? 10 sheets of 8 x 11.5" paper weigh 46 grams. A 3 page > > letter in an envelope weighs an ounce. I have not weighed a sticker, > > but aren't they magnetic? > > No, the ones you see on cars are more like decals -- they're just a film > of plastic, or possibly paper, with sticky stuff on one side. Probably > more than a gram, it's true :-) but not a whole lot more, I'd guess. > > The Fish Wars had the potential to be more expensive, I suppose, since > the bumper-fish (both Darwin and IXOYE fish) appear to be rather thick > plastic plaques. I kept meaning to get one of each, and let them fight > it out on the back of our car, but I waited too long and now the back of > the car's completely covered with political bumper stickers, so both > fish lost out. > > > I'll bet the biggest "energy flag cost" is the cost of all those flags > > on cars flapping in the wind. Fortunately, they have mostly frayed and > > you do not see them often anymore. > > Yeah -- I wish I could say the same thing for the gas-station flags, and > the flags in restaurants, and the flag in the barber shop, and the flags > at the copy shop, and.... I suppose they'd be useful if one > occasionally forgot what country one was in, and needed to be reminded, > but that's not a problem I find I have. > > > > > - Jed > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 09:14:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2OHEZbV012286; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:14:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2OHETiP012214; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:14:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:14:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:14:54 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: RE: OT: The will of God Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: <2Zw18D.A.s-C.0VvQCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel and Horace Heffner responded; >J. Swift writes: >Our histories of six thousand moons make no mention of any other My first reaction was to say that I fail to see the connection between this part of Gulliver's Travels and the the question at hand. On further reflection You have the misguided idea that the difference between Judeo Christianity and Islam is the same difference between a Lutheran and a Baptist. This is just not the case, all you have to do is look at the fruits of the two systems; Islamic nations have no rights for women and are all third world economies. We have rights for women and are all first and second world economies. > >At 1:32 PM 3/10/5, thomas malloy wrote: > >>The scenario which is being played out was prophecized 4000 years > >ago, ergo it is the will of G-d. The Islamists believe that Allah has > > >Jews and Christians worship the god of Abraham. Islamists worship the god >of Abraham. If it is the same Abraham it is the same god. The idea that Yehovah, and Allah are the same entity is pure nonsense. Ditto for the idea that Shariah is a substitute for Torah. I thought I'd made the case adequately, but apparently I didn't. So I'll try again. If some hacker hijacks my email account and starts out by declaring that I have just decided to change my name to Elmer Fudd, and that I have just converted to Islam, you can be sure that It's not me posting it. Yehovah declares himself to be King of the Universe. A king can't resend his laws. See the story of Daniel and the Lion's Den. The King in the story was obligated to follow his own laws, even though it meant throwing his friend and trusted advisor to the lions. > >The difference lies in the words and thus opinions of men, not in the two >gods. Peace between these world factions must finally be won in the hearts >of humanity, not in the interpretation of scripture. More nonsense, why are there two world views? Two gods perhaps? That's the story, starting in Genesis 3 and ending in the last chapter of the Revelation. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 09:18:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2OHHubV015220; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:17:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2OHHsU2015198; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:17:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:17:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050324121355.02b614b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:17:38 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <42423CF1.2070701 pobox.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20050321194404.052df008 mail.dlsi.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20050323175003.029f36f0 pop.mindspring.com> <42423CF1.2070701 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_9611359==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <1d7q3.A.WtD.BZvQCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_9611359==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>So far. There is no telling when a skeptic will come and erase it. There >>is no control and no recourse. > >Say what? Is this the same Wikipedia I'm familiar with? > >There is control and there is recourse. A page which someone deletes for >personal reasons can be retrieved. I doubt anyone would delete the page, but as far as I know, nothing can stop a skeptic from coming in and erasing some of my contributions, or changing what I wrote to mean something else. I wouldn't notice it. I think it is possible to put the page under a "watch" that would report all changes to me, but I am not going to bother. Anyway, it is not important. - Jed --=====================_9611359==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

So far. There is no telling when a skeptic will come and erase it. There is no control and no recourse.

Say what?   Is this the same Wikipedia I'm familiar with?

There is control and there is recourse.  A page which someone deletes for personal reasons can be retrieved.

I doubt anyone would delete the page, but as far as I know, nothing can stop a skeptic from coming in and erasing some of my contributions, or changing what I wrote to mean something else. I wouldn't notice it. I think it is possible to put the page under a "watch" that would report all changes to me, but I am not going to bother.

Anyway, it is not important.

- Jed
--=====================_9611359==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 11:57:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2OJusbV020306; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:56:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2OJumEv020276; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:56:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:56:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:57:43 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: OT: The will of God Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:14 AM 3/24/5, thomas malloy wrote: >The idea that Yehovah, and Allah are the same entity is pure >nonsense. Ditto for the idea that Shariah is a substitute for Torah. >I thought I'd made the case adequately, but apparently I didn't. You completely failed to address the issue and you seem to not even understand the point. Jews and Christians worship the god of Abraham. Islamists worship the god of Abraham. If it is the same Abraham it is the same god. >So >I'll try again. You might try addressing the premises or the logic which derives the conclusion. >>The difference lies in the words and thus opinions of men, not in the two >>gods. Peace between these world factions must finally be won in the hearts >>of humanity, not in the interpretation of scripture. > >More nonsense, why are there two world views? Two gods perhaps? If you seek differences you always find them. If you seek peace the road lies through what we share in common. Jews and Christians worship the god of Abraham. Islamists worship the god of Abraham. If it is the same Abraham it is the same god. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 12:47:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2OKktbV018832; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:46:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2OKkmws018781; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:46:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:46:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42432732.7060704 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:46:42 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The will of God References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >At 11:14 AM 3/24/5, thomas malloy wrote: > > >>The idea that Yehovah, and Allah are the same entity is pure >>nonsense. Ditto for the idea that Shariah is a substitute for Torah. >>I thought I'd made the case adequately, but apparently I didn't. >> >> > >You completely failed to address the issue and you seem to not even >understand the point. > >Jews and Christians worship the god of Abraham. Islamists worship the god >of Abraham. If it is the same Abraham it is the same god. > > > This is in danger of turning into a serious argument. Time to derail it again. I have run across some references to cuneiform records on clay tablets found in a temple(?) which served as a way station for caravans traveling the road between Babylon and Canaan. The tablets included records of the names of those who stopped there on their journeys. Included in the roles were a group of people with Jewish names (of course, I mean names like Benjamin, _not_ names like Goldstein, duh). The tablets date to about 1800 BC. This jibes pretty well with the time period of the events in Genesis in which Abraham led his clan from Babylon to Canaan. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it suggests strongly that there was indeed a clan of Jews traveling that road at that time, which supports the notion that Genesis is more or less correct on this point: They migrated from the east into Israel some time between 1500 and 2000 BC. Whoever the leader of the clan was, was "Abraham". He existed. (Whether he called himself Abraham or the name was altered in a scribal error is, of course, not determinable, and also somewhat irrelevant IMHO.) "Abraham"'s God was, by definition and scribal errors notwithstanding, Yhwh. In addition, and far more subjectively, I would assert that the very strange incident of Melchizidek provides strong internal evidence for the historical authenticity of at least some of the stories of Abraham. Nobody who was inventing stories about a mythical Abraham would have invented such an out-of-character tale; it seems far more likely that it documents a real incident, and in fact may be the only record that remains of a far more extensive connection between the god of Abraham and the god of Melchizidek. The name of Bethel, which has some significance in Jewish history, is also interesting: As I understand it, it means "the seat of El". Who was El? El, the Lord Most High, was the chief god in the pantheon which included Baal. Is it possible that Yhwh was connected in some way with the same pantheon? This seems likely to me, though I've read arguments that it could not be, since Yhwh was a god of the cities and Baal a god of the countryside (or perhaps I have it backwards) but I didn't find that all that convincing. I expect somebody in Vortex knows more about this than I do, and can jump in and correct the errors in this :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 12:54:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2OKrwbV022242; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:53:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2OKro7o022184; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:53:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:53:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=H6nDvyFp6SZmDRe1yUsSJgiuT4dzOelGnG4J6gIdtX8Wey+YroG8uQqRzze5qvCfuHXgioFYIot1XjbJYyPWnk14obwTPJG81ieGhhYu38OyPBeEg4ku0bMR1i6C6KPfGDVb2ifnLzpcA1Ylga2tlGBUDEGvCp+8haQifYWHa8o= ; Message-ID: <20050324205342.88175.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:53:42 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: RE: OT: The will of God To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1458284894-1111697622=:87960" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1458284894-1111697622=:87960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii There is a general solution. If G-d is Omnipresent, there is but One by exclusion; and, all monotheistic religions are worshiping the same G-d by definition. "I am that I am" Horace Heffner wrote: Jews and Christians worship the god of Abraham. Islamists worship the god of Abraham. If it is the same Abraham it is the same god. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1458284894-1111697622=:87960 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
There is a general solution.  If G-d is Omnipresent, there is but One by exclusion; and, all monotheistic religions are worshiping the same G-d by definition.
 
"I am that I am"

Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net> wrote:
Jews and Christians worship the god of Abraham. Islamists worship the god
of Abraham. If it is the same Abraham it is the same god.

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http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1458284894-1111697622=:87960-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 13:00:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2OK12bV022692; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:01:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2OK0orX022583; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:00:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:00:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr04o$l02tdi mxip03a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,119,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="704738738:sNHT49288062" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: OT: The will of God Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:00:25 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: thomas malloy ... > My first reaction was to say that I fail to see > the connection between this part of Gulliver's Travels > and the the question at hand. On further reflection > You have the misguided idea that the difference > between Judeo Christianity and Islam is the same > difference between a Lutheran and a Baptist. This > is just not the case, all you have to do is look > at the fruits of the two systems; Islamic nations have > no rights for women and are all third world economies. > We have rights for women and are all first and second > world economies. Recently, Amina Wadud, an Islamic scholar at Virginia Commonwealth University was probably the first woman to have presided over a mixed-gender prayer service in public since Islam's earliest days. Wadud thinks women's inequality is not a tenant of the faith but a mark of misguided tradition. She went on to say, "That's where most of the rules came along to say women cannot do things." There is Asra Nomani who is author of the new book "Standing alone in Mecca: An American Woman's Struggle for the Soul of Islam". Nomani stated "It's time that women take their rightful place alongside men." One of the most influential elders in the U.S., Khaled Abou El Fadl, a sheik and a professor of Islamic Law at UCLA, stated that he saw no reason to keep women from leading. Let us not forget Aisha, a wife of Muhammad, who led an army and taught both women and men. The above information was assembled from an article in TIME Magazine. See page 49, 03/28/2005. It would appear that the rights of women who follow the Islamic faith are slowly changing, perhaps waaaay toooo slow for some, for the better in countries where the economies are more advanced and the political systems have had a chance to evolve into democracies. This is beginning to happen in the United States. I also found it interesting to note that Islam originally not as restrictive of the rights of women. I don't think it was scripture that caused Islamic women to lose their rights. The more logical explanation was that men in charge at the time wanted to consolidate their control over all parts of society, and to that end, unfortunately, they were exceedingly successful. Never the less, seems to me that Times are A'Changing. Not fast enough for some Islamic women I would imagine. But they are changing never the less. ... > >Stephen Lawrence wrote: > >The difference lies in the words and thus opinions > >of men, not in the two gods. Peace between these > >world factions must finally be won in the hearts > >of humanity, not in the interpretation of scripture. > > More nonsense, why are there two world views? Two gods > perhaps? That's the story, starting in Genesis 3 and > ending in the last chapter of the Revelation. Speaking of Genesis and the creation of the universe, Thomas, I was wondering what your interpretation of the Scriptures has to say on the possibility of discovering life on other planets in the Universe, and especially intelligent life. Just wondering... Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 13:02:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2OL1vbV026419; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:01:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2OL1pfq026355; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:01:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:01:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=M6bRhtg8lHO35Sq4BVM50VaQIaXrfej9uiBLN95bwYjzHoqxuQ24V4jF8BMoMLhdc6KhsHNhQixNqp5+YJvZRsHcxEildcBnKr+1D8N3yJ4p+25tBYgcfElWIRrcEkwUtfVQjYfKc/FzoXkGX2pnur4Y+czS9NA+B3vvuL/q+sI= ; Message-ID: <20050324210133.16992.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:01:32 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: OT: The will of God To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1232068306-1111698092=:15037" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1232068306-1111698092=:15037 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think you might find this of interest: "There are certain striking similarities between the Hindu god Brahma and his consort Saraisvati, and the Jewish Abraham and Sarai, that are more than mere coincidences." http://www.hermetics.org/Abraham2.html "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: This jibes pretty well with the time period of the events in Genesis in which Abraham led his clan from Babylon to Canaan. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1232068306-1111698092=:15037 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I think you might find this of interest:
 
"There are certain striking similarities between the Hindu god Brahma and his consort Saraisvati, and the Jewish Abraham and Sarai, that are more than mere coincidences."
 
http://www.hermetics.org/Abraham2.html

"Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com> wrote:
This jibes pretty well with the time period of the events in Genesis in
which Abraham led his clan from Babylon to Canaan.

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http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1232068306-1111698092=:15037-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 13:20:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2OLJpbV004188; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:19:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2OLJnUr004168; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:19:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:19:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42432EF5.4040709 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:19:49 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The will of God References: <20050324205342.88175.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050324205342.88175.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > There is a general solution. If G-d is Omnipresent, there is but One > by exclusion; and, all monotheistic religions are worshiping the same > G-d by definition. > > "I am that I am" Um ... You are assuming all those who _think_ they are worshiping the One God are indeed doing so. As I read the OT there are at least _two_ major power centers in the universe, Lucifer and Yhwh. Lucifer is, of course, not exactly big on humankind -- according to the Testament of Moses he is horribly jealous of Adam's place in the universe and hence detests all humans. None the less there's no reason to think he couldn't find it entertaining to try to convince humans to worship him in some apparently innocent guise. Furthermore, if we take the whole Bible as literally true, then we must also include the rather intriguing book of Job. The devil portrayed in that book is clever enough to talk God Himself into sending a series of nasty plagues to one of His most devoted followers. Such a clever devil is surely capable of duping a few hundred million humans into worshiping him in the mistaken belief that he's God, don't you think? In addition to the main devil in the story, there is certainly a historical record of many people mistakenly worshiping Baal who (according to the Jews) either had no existence at all or was an evil entity of some sort. And there was the Fish-God of the Phoenician -- who was that, anyway? You may claim these are all aspects of a single Deity but that's not the interpretation authors of the Bible brought to the situation. And finally, at the other end of the book we find references to an Antichrist and hints that people might worship that entity. So, once again, we see that people may just be plain confused about what sort of supernatural entity it is that's manifesting over their alters. If we go a little farther afield, we find that there are supposedly even people who are so misguided they worship Cthuhlu, thinking he/it is some sort of god, and boy are they going to be in for a surprise when he/it turns finally wakes up and _eats_ them ... er, oops, I think I've jumped the tracks here, time to rein it in. > > */Horace Heffner /* wrote: > > Jews and Christians worship the god of Abraham. Islamists worship > the god > of Abraham. If it is the same Abraham it is the same god. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 13:29:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2OLTObV010879; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:29:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2OLTLYe010850; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:29:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:29:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4243312D.6040100 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:29:17 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The will of God References: <20050324210133.16992.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050324210133.16992.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6WelSC.A.fpC.wEzQCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > I think you might find this of interest: > > "There are certain striking similarities between the Hindu god > *Brahma* and his consort *Saraisvati,* and the Jewish *Abraham* and > *Sarai*, that are more than mere coincidences." > > http://www.hermetics.org/Abraham2.html Thanks -- very interesting reference. At a quick glance there's quite a bit there that I might not agree with, but there's also quite a lot that looks really fascinating of which I had been unaware. In particular, I knew nothing of historical events leading up to the Jewish migration of ~1800BC -- but obviously there must have been some, right? It deserves a longer look, when I have a few more minutes than I have just now. > > */"Stephen A. Lawrence" /* wrote: > > This jibes pretty well with the time period of the events in > Genesis in > which Abraham led his clan from Babylon to Canaan. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 13:55:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2OLtAbV026539; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:55:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2OLt8iU026523; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:55:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:55:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=SJR1CxHsV/0Df+NfsRk7S7cLwX20cPmW5ih48Me4L/nwVRlrc5jO5AYukG5imgYF94Gbap5od87U6NhrLjIPKiDo8dNStoZ1f4mj62hwWZIpGWahqkOQWYm7WY12qPByPsjXEhyAv6fCw2BE0nu9gYSmMnO2uj3TU09vXnC2xZk= ; Message-ID: <20050324215501.9938.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:55:00 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: OT: The will of God To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1850011299-1111701300=:9203" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1850011299-1111701300=:9203 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Nope, I make no assumptions about the worshiper. The condition is that G-d is Omnipresent. This is an interesting philosophy in that before there was a Creation, there was only the Creator. The only material to compose the Creation must come from the Creator; therefore, all that is, is G-d (depending on what the meaning of 'is' is :-) I further conjecture that to be the Creation, it must be not G-d; therefore, all that lives is separate from G-d. If G-d is all that is Good; then, all that is must be Evil and the end of Creation is the return to G-d. Is this why 'live' is 'evil' spelled backward? Maybe we should ask Nora Barton . "Thou art G-d" -Stranger in a Strange Land "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: Terry Blanton wrote: > There is a general solution. If G-d is Omnipresent, there is but One > by exclusion; and, all monotheistic religions are worshiping the same > G-d by definition. > > "I am that I am" Um ... You are assuming all those who _think_ they are worshiping the One God are indeed doing so. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1850011299-1111701300=:9203 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Nope, I make no assumptions about the worshiper.  The condition is that G-d is Omnipresent.  This is an interesting philosophy in that before there was a Creation, there was only the Creator.  The only material to compose the Creation must come from the Creator; therefore, all that is, is G-d (depending on what the meaning of 'is' is :-) 
 
I further conjecture that to be the Creation, it must be not G-d; therefore, all that lives is separate from G-d.  If G-d is all that is Good; then, all that is must be Evil and the end of Creation is the return to G-d.  Is this why 'live' is 'evil' spelled backward?  Maybe we should ask Nora Barton <eg>.
 
"Thou art G-d"
 
-Stranger in a Strange Land

"Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com> wrote:


Terry Blanton wrote:

> There is a general solution. If G-d is Omnipresent, there is but One
> by exclusion; and, all monotheistic religions are worshiping the same
> G-d by definition.
>
> "I am that I am"

Um ... You are assuming all those who _think_ they are worshiping the
One God are indeed doing so.

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Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1850011299-1111701300=:9203-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 14:17:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2OMHSbV004054; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:17:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2OMHOTZ004019; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:17:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:17:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42433C74.10402 pobox.com> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:17:24 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The will of God References: <20050324215501.9938.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050324215501.9938.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Nope, I make no assumptions about the worshiper. The condition is > that G-d is Omnipresent. This is an interesting philosophy in that > before there was a Creation, there was only the Creator. The only > material to compose the Creation must come from the Creator; > therefore, all that is, is G-d (depending on what the meaning of 'is' > is :-) > > I further conjecture that to be the Creation, it must be not G-d; > therefore, all that lives is separate from G-d. If G-d is all that is > Good; then, all that is must be Evil Whoops -- hold it right there. First, how can something which is all good spawn something evil? How can pure evil come from pure good? Clearly it can't -- if the good gives birth to the evil then the good must have incorporated the evil to start with and the good must not have been pure good, after all. The archetype for evil cannot be good. Second, you have a fundamental semantic difficulty, which is that you have defined "good" as "that which G-d is or wants", have you not? And then you have taken that definition, which reduces "good" to little more than an alias for "G-d", and used it in an attempt to reason about the goodness of G-d and not-G-d. That's highly circular. This problem is not unique to your approach, of course: it's a basic problem with any rational discussion of morality. Any attempt at defining "good" as anything except "that which God wants" tends to result in an awful lot of wasted paper. On the other hand, explicitly defining it as a synonym for God results in a very short discussion with little in the way of interesting conclusions. > and the end of Creation is the return to G-d. Is this why 'live' is > 'evil' spelled backward? God likes round numbers. God works in decimal. (Hence dates such as 1000 and 2000 are significant.) God speaks English. > Maybe we should ask Nora Barton . > > "Thou art G-d" > > -Stranger in a Strange Land But Heinlein didn't leave out the 'o'. After all, if we're all in this together, how can it be wrong to refer to us all by name? "Good is better than evil because it's nicer" -- Al Capp > > */"Stephen A. Lawrence" /* wrote: > > > > Terry Blanton wrote: > > > There is a general solution. If G-d is Omnipresent, there is but > One > > by exclusion; and, all monotheistic religions are worshiping the > same > > G-d by definition. > > > > "I am that I am" > > Um ... You are assuming all those who _think_ they are worshiping the > One God are indeed doing so. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 14:37:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2OMbVbV013337; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:37:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2OMbUFb013314; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:37:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:37:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050324173509.02b5d778 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:37:19 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Garbage from space.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <_nfZ6C.A.8PD.pE0QCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://www.space.com/searchforlife/shostak_daring_050324.html Quote: ". . . So a researcher has to make a choice of whether to "interpret" the data and gamble on discovery, or keep quiet, continue the slog, and risk being trumped by a competitor. In other words, there's a fine balance between discreetly jumping the gun and being out of the race. The right choice is seldom dead obvious. In 1989, chemists Stanley Pons and Martin Fleishman claimed they had provoked cold fusion in their lab. What they actually provoked was cold rebuke from their peers." How do you contact these idots?!? I do not see a contact page or editor. Let's everyone write to them, and set them straight. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 14:45:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2OMj7bV018477; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:45:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2OMj4bX018439; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:45:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:45:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050324174111.02bdb2e8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:44:46 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Okay article in Guardian Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A lot of garbage, mixed in with some truth: http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/research/story/0,9865,1444306,00.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 14:47:49 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2OMlbbV020227; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:47:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2OMlZJg020201; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:47:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:47:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=LuRDSvTpKpEkqayL1NvqABultEedmELh5kRmW/cKML79XTTk3A5rn/TxhIcXo98TPTi4/yUJK3Q3+pPe/cQxeAC5tBPZZPb1nBxu9h43NowtYffFTpvULBTuUZVPkiSTdThBUKKnxxD2bbLyQ0tp8wHFFB+RHhwgd/hfjoYSMv0= ; Message-ID: <20050324224727.90532.qmail web51705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:47:26 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: OT: The will of God To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1314316582-1111704446=:90226" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1314316582-1111704446=:90226 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii LOL! You shouldn't read my posts. Sometimes my NLP goes haywire. :-) Have you ever heard of the Cathars? It's my own gnostic variation. Well, actually, I got it from a Playboy article about 30 years ago. It goes something like this. G-d got bored so he created Man for his entertainment. Man does those things which G-d can not do, evil. So, it is sin which keeps Man separate from G-d. But, that's the way G-d wants it. Crazy, eh? "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: First, how can something which is all good spawn something evil? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. --0-1314316582-1111704446=:90226 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
LOL!  You shouldn't read my posts.  Sometimes my NLP goes haywire.  :-)
 
Have you ever heard of the Cathars?
 
It's my own gnostic variation.  Well, actually, I got it from a Playboy article about 30 years ago.  It goes something like this.  G-d got bored so he created Man for his entertainment.  Man does those things which G-d can not do, evil.  So, it is sin which keeps Man separate from
G-d.  But, that's the way G-d wants it.  Crazy, eh?

"Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw pobox.com> wrote:
First, how can something which is all good spawn something evil?

Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. --0-1314316582-1111704446=:90226-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 14:52:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2OMqBbV022340; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:52:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2OMqA4E022316; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:52:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:52:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ynZXnqDLWb6QmGS+AWCTVb07EXFTi+T9BjNo0cd07Y7iGmTtNJzt44gEMjJIWKBVSIkBNxgeSFiBZXFH6/nWd/Z3Zj6N7gAB1QC7lM/bHhp2RnycNMLi61O2l960EZ/UX+g5VNJ1itHxFTO+8FeimgLGONmadZB2iU33cyGj530= ; Message-ID: <20050324225202.27536.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:52:02 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Garbage from space.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-344713452-1111704722=:26664" Resent-Message-ID: <5TLUeB.A.pcF.ZS0QCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --0-344713452-1111704722=:26664 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think you can reach the author at; sshostak seti.org http://www.seti.org/site/pp.asp?c=ktJ2J9MMIsE&b=179047 Jed Rothwell wrote: How do you contact these idots?!? I do not see a contact page or editor. Let's everyone write to them, and set them straight. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-344713452-1111704722=:26664 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I think you can reach the author at;
 
 


Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
How do you contact these idots?!? I do not see a contact page or editor.
Let's everyone write to them, and set them straight.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-344713452-1111704722=:26664-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 15:18:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2ONI7bV005364; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:18:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2ONI0WA005300; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:18:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:18:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050324174847.02c5d0c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:17:38 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: The will of God In-Reply-To: <42433C74.10402 pobox.com> References: <20050324215501.9938.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> <42433C74.10402 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_31217328==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58648 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_31217328==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >First, how can something which is all good spawn something evil? How can >pure evil come from pure good? Clearly it can't -- if the good gives >birth to the evil then the good must have incorporated the evil to start >with and the good must not have been pure good, after all. Oh come now. You are describing metaphysics, not physics. Anything can happen. This is not chemistry. There are no formulas, standards for purity or logic. The whole business is nonexistent as far as I am concerned. Nature knows no such concepts; they are a human invention. They describe our subjective impressions of life, more or less the way romantic love describes sexual attraction. Evil is in the eye of the beholder. The cows and sheep we eat surely consider us evil, heartless, brutal villains. We have equally low opinions of the bacteria and mosquitoes that infect us. But Mr. Mosquito thinks that Mrs. Mosquito is a divine creature -- the essence of pulchritude -- and of course he is right. Evil people exploit other people with no more thought than a butcher kills a sheep, but a man from Mars would not be able to judge whether that is dysfunctional evil or just another way to make a living. Many species, including all primates and carnivores as far as I know, murder members of their own species and periodically cannibalize their offspring (when they kill or drive off a rival male). Of course we consider that evil -- and it is from our perspective -- but from a larger perspective or the point of view of some other species there is nothing wrong with it, any more than there is something wrong with wasps paralyzing their prey and laying eggs in them. It must be horrible to be slowly eaten alive, but it ridiculous to call it cruel or evil. There is no higher purpose or meaning or morality or lesson in any of this behavior -- not even the worst human exploitation or war. It is just animals doing what they do. We may eventually succeed in domesticating humans to eliminate such behavior -- and most people will agree that would be a good outcome -- but it has no larger meaning that another species would appreciate, and there is no intelligence or judgement in the universe except in living species. Other species don't care what we do to one another any more than we care what wasps do to caterpillars. They may care about us and love us the way I love cats and red-wing blackbirds, but I would never condemn a cat for killing a blackbird. That is what cats do. - Jed --=====================_31217328==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

First, how can something whic= h is all good spawn something evil?  How can pure evil come from pure good?  Clearly it can't -- if the good gives birth to the evil then the good must have incorporated the evil to start with and the good must not have been pure good, after all.

Oh come now. You are describing metaphysics, not physics. Anything can happen. This is not chemistry. There are no formulas, standards for purity or logic.

The whole business is nonexistent as far as I am concerned. Nature knows no such concepts; they are a human invention. They describe our subjective impressions of life, more or less the way romantic love describes sexual attraction. Evil is in the eye of the beholder. The cows and sheep we eat surely consider us evil, heartless, brutal villains. We have equally low opinions of the bacteria and mosquitoes that infect us. But Mr. Mosquito thinks that Mrs. Mosquito is a divine creature -- the essence of pulchritude -- and of course he is right.

Evil people exploit other people with no more thought than a butcher kills a sheep, but a man from Mars would not be able to judge whether that is dysfunctional evil or just another way to make a living. Many species, including all primates and carnivores as far as I know, murder members of their own species and periodically cannibalize their offspring (when they kill or drive off a rival male). Of course we consider that evil -- and it is from our perspective -- but from a larger perspective or the point of view of some other species there is nothing wrong with it, any more than there is something wrong with wasps paralyzing their prey and laying eggs in them. It must be horrible to be slowly eaten alive, but it ridiculous to call it cruel or evil. There is no higher purpose or meaning or morality or lesson in any of this behavior -- not even the worst human exploitation or war. It is just animals doing what they do. We may eventually succeed in domesticating humans to eliminate such behavior -- and most people will agree that would be a good outcome -- but it has no larger meaning that another species would appreciate, and there is no intelligence or judgement in the universe except in living species. Other species don't care what we do to one another any more than we care what wasps do to caterpillars. They may care about us and love us the way I love cats and red-wing blackbirds, but I would never condemn a cat for killing a blackbird. That is what cats do.

- Jed
--=====================_31217328==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 15:19:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2ONJjbV006454; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:19:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2ONJg02006420; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:19:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:19:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050324181839.02c580d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:19:20 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Garbage from space.com In-Reply-To: <20050324225202.27536.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050324225202.27536.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_31323125==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58649 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_31323125==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Terry Blanton wrote: >I think you can reach the author at; > >sshostak@seti.org Hmmm . . . Let's have some of the big guns write him. Or everyone?!? - Jed --=====================_31323125==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Terry Blanton wrote:

I think you can reach the author at;
 
sshostak@seti.org


Hmmm . . . Let's have some of the big guns write him. Or everyone?!?

- Jed
--=====================_31323125==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 15:27:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2ONR7bV009496; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:27:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2ONR3XD009465; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:27:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:27:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=2GBIhIGaxFO5Yp+UeGK8TaB+KCWX63iure7zUNl7/NKnLhKhfQzr1gEzW9TklO9qIsTME4jWdtOl5qUEEWVi+G241wQEGN4/R68XtokUAoL6oODRbLi8OD2A1IhCk+nubabtFmYKJcg9FL7tl9OTZvge4Dv34OymdWIhB2LUhg0= ; Message-ID: <20050324232649.62987.qmail web51704.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:26:49 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: OT: The will of God To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2088492084-1111706809=:61465" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-2088492084-1111706809=:61465 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Oops! That should read 'Nora Baron'. "Onegod dogone it!" - Me, after an insane day on the nutfarm. Terry Blanton wrote: Maybe we should ask Nora Barton . site! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-2088492084-1111706809=:61465 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Oops!  That should read 'Nora Baron'. 
 
"Onegod dogone it!"
 
- Me, after an insane day on the nutfarm.


Terry Blanton <terry1094 yahoo.com> wrote:
Maybe we should ask Nora Barton <eg>. site!

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-2088492084-1111706809=:61465-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 15:42:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2ONgMTc018574; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:42:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2ONgFt9018524; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:42:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:42:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr7ej$poq8fu mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,120,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="864887294:sNHT12852572" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: OT: The will of God Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:41:55 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton ... > I further conjecture that to be the Creation, it must > be not G-d; therefore, all that lives is separate from > G-d. If G-d is all that is Good; then, all that is > must be Evil and the end of Creation is the return to > G-d. Is this why 'live' is 'evil' spelled backward? > Maybe we should ask Nora Barton . > > "Thou art G-d" > > -Stranger in a Strange Land > > "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > I thought Woody Allen's movie "The Sleeper" answered this mystery long ago. There is a scene where Luna Schlosser, played by Dian Keaton, is incessantly babbling on about different philosophical points of view. Both Luna and Miles Monroe, played by Woody Allen, are on the run and are looking for some fast transportation to evade the authorities. The two of them have just discovered a very old looking Volkswagen beetle. The rusted bug is probably over a hundred years old and Miles wonders if the contraption will still run. He has his doubts. As they approach the relic Luna pauses in the middle of her philosophical babbling, and then blurts out: Did you know that 'God' spelled backwards is 'dog?' Makes you think, doesn't it. Miles, somewhat exasperated, rolls his eyes and asks Luna to help him move the car. Miles eventually gets into the car and turns the key. Being a Volkswagen it starts on a dime! We may never know the true answer to Luna's epiphany. OTOH, I suspect the beetle may have been retrofitted with a CF engine! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 16:16:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2P0FlPv003649; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:15:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2P0Fiao003623; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:15:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:15:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050324162151.03427c38 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:22:09 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Garbage from space.com In-Reply-To: <20050324225202.27536.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6667> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_-1628243703==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58652 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_-1628243703==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed done - thanks for the address At 02:52 PM 3/24/2005 -0800, you wrote: >I think you can reach the author at; > >sshostak@seti.org > >http://www.seti.org/site/pp.asp?c=ktJ2J9MMIsE&b=179047 > > >Jed Rothwell wrote: >How do you contact these idots?!? I do not see a contact page or editor. >Let's everyone write to them, and set them straight. > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com --=====================_-1628243703==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" done - thanks for the address

At 02:52 PM 3/24/2005 -0800, you wrote:
I think you can reach the author at;
 
sshostak@seti.org
 
http://www.seti.org/site/pp.asp?c=ktJ2J9MMIsE&b=179047


Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell mindspring.com> wrote:
How do you contact these idots?!? I do not see a contact page or editor.
Let's everyone write to them, and set them straight.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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--=====================_-1628243703==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 18:12:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2P2C5w2025726; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:12:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2P2C18V025681; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:12:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:12:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=4btNvJwf4Fpi9sEAPoQUAWecxzn2i0/QSCAD34CR+dydNEwSNZkeF1xrZyJR3BR4vsXOlD3t5Bq0Ou0cWQZARlB4csTwnKWNdTRiG0m3O9Vym3KGlDw91FJARlKNHD2qfhGPk1tFv8jHZ6A+uhq5Ulix67l8VxdzoCQf9cNg81Y= ; Message-ID: <20050325021154.99926.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:11:54 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: A Stirling Solution To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "If the project succeeds, the DOE predicts that by 2011, Stirling solar-dish farms could be delivering electricity to the grid at costs comparable to traditional electricity sources, thereby reducing the U.S. need for foreign sources of fossil fuels." http://www.eet.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=53700939 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 24 22:56:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2P6u1k6022736; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:56:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2P6tjd7022588; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:55:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:55:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050325065453.00691c0c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 06:54:53 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Wikipedia Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:31 pm 23-03-05 -0800, Steve wrote: > Jed, > > ............... Perhaps we need miracle #4, > whatever that will be. > > Steve > Perhaps we will get a miracle. 8-) Perhaps we will discover how to turn water into wine - or at least into the equivalent of motor spirit. ;-) After all, the signs are all in place. There is a prophesy that this is the last pope before the end of time - or rather the end of the times - which presumably means the end of the times of the nations. JPII has shown remarkable longevity considering his several ailments but he is surely coming to the end of his reign and so I would guess that we are not going to have to wait long for his death and, possibly, for the Garabandal world wide warning. And being able to harness the power of the water-ice phase transition would be better even than cold fusion - and certainly lead to a new era of plenty - an era symbolized and foreshadowed by the six waterpots of stone filled to the brim with wine - an era when the "stones will cry out". And just think of the wonderful schadenfreude one would experience at the confusion (pun intended) of Porkie and his whole herd as they perish in the waters. Happy Easter. 8-) Frank Grimer ========================================= et deficiente vino dicit mater Iesu ad eum vinum non habent et dicit ei Iesus quid mihi et tibi est mulier nondum venit hora mea dicit mater eius ministris quodcumque dixerit vobis facite ========================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 25 07:13:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2PFD1eW025940; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:13:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2PFCrSA025856; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:12:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:12:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050325101109.02b6f670 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:12:36 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Sci. Am. attacks CF again Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58655 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Sci. Am. has attacked cold fusion again, two months in a row. See the illustration to the April fools editorial, print edition page 10. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 25 08:35:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2PGZgeW032546; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:35:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2PGYKMU031588; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:34:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:34:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: missy9871 spamarrest.com Message-Id: X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:34:06 -0600 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: "JNPCo." Subject: ****NEWS CONFERENCE AT THE NATIONAL PRESS CLUB IN WASHINGTON, D.C.: MONDAY, 3/28/05/1:00PM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1100354047==_ma============" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1100354047==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" * * * * * Energy Machine Inventor Joseph W. Newman will hold a News Conference at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C. 529 14th Street, NW on Monday, March 28, 1:00PM Lisagor Room * * * * * Joseph Newman will display/demonstrate his newest energy machine that is a quantum leap above his earlier energy machine technology. As the price of oil escalates, Joseph Newman's energy machine is an inexpensive, non-polluting electromagnetic source for the world's energy needs. This technology provides access to virtually unlimited energy that is abundant, inexpensive, and environmentally-friendly. The Newman energy machine is an electromagnetic motor that runs COOL (unlike ALL conventional motors) and harnesses the elemental forces of the universe in accordance with the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. The Newman energy machine will provide a stable and durable alternative to oil, gas, coal, and nuclear energy sources. This technology will power every automobile, home, appliance, farm, factory, ship, and plane at a FRACTION of the present cost of energy. A worldwide inexpensive energy source will have profound geopolitical implications for the Middle East. * * * * * See for yourself a new technology that will meet the future energy needs of humanity. * * * * * http://www.josephnewman.com Email: josephnewman earthlink.net Contact: (205) 835-9022 [Joseph Nolfe, President & CEO, Newman Energy Corp.] The future of the human race may be dramatically uplifted by the large-scale, commercial development of this invention." --- Dr. Roger Hastings, Principal Physicist, UNISYS CORPORATION "If the manner in which Joseph Newman conducted his experiments and the results were made known to the industrial or engineering community then, in my opinion, several companies and/or individuals possess the expertise and capabilities to construct the hardware required to fully exploit the apparent capability of his new concepts." --- Dr. Robert E. Smith, Chief, Orbital and Space Environment Branch, George C. Marshall Space Flight Center, NASA "You have opened an area in Astrophysics which may revolutionize the magnetic energy problems which is now the most paramount problem in future energy and space travel. I do believe with proper research funds, the results would not only be a great financial boom to your financiers, but would lead to developments that will be practical and beneficial to all mankind and develop a new step in science." --- Dr. E. L. Moragne, MORAGNE RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT CO. [Dr. Moragne was an electromagnetic pioneer in the development of the first atomic bomb.] * * * * * --============_-1100354047==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" ****NEWS CONFERENCE AT THE NATIONAL PRESS CLUB IN WASHINGT
*   *   *   *   *
Energy Machine Inventor
Joseph W. Newman
will hold a
News Conference
at the
National Press Club in Washington, D.C.
529 14th Street, NW
on
Monday, March 28, 1:00PM
Lisagor Room

*   *   *   *   *

Joseph Newman will display/demonstrate his newest energy machine
that is a quantum leap above his earlier energy machine technology.

As the price of oil escalates, Joseph Newman's energy machine
is an inexpensive, non-polluting electromagnetic source for the world's energy needs.

This technology provides access to virtually unlimited energy that is
abundant, inexpensive, and environmentally-friendly.

The Newman energy machine is an electromagnetic motor that runs
COOL (unlike ALL conventional motors) and harnesses the
elemental forces of the universe in accordance
with the 1st Law of Thermodynamics.

The Newman energy machine will provide a stable and durable
alternative to oil, gas, coal, and nuclear energy sources.

This technology will power every automobile, home, appliance,
farm, factory, ship, and plane at a FRACTION of the present cost of energy.

A worldwide inexpensive energy source will have profound
geopolitical implications for the Middle East.

*   *   *   *   *

See for yourself a new technology that will meet the
future energy needs of humanity.

*   *   *   *   *

http://www.josephnewman.com
Email: josephnewman earthlink.net
Contact:
(205) 835-9022 [Joseph Nolfe, President & CEO, Newman Energy Corp.]


The future of the human race may be dramatically uplifted by the large-scale,
commercial development of this invention."

--- Dr. Roger Hastings, Principal Physicist, UNISYS CORPORATION

 

"If the manner in which Joseph Newman conducted his experiments and the results
were made known to the industrial or engineering community then, in my opinion,
several companies and/or individuals possess the expertise and capabilities
to construct the hardware required to fully exploit the apparent capability of his new concepts."
--- Dr. Robert E. Smith, Chief, Orbital and Space Environment Branch,
George C. Marshall Space Flight Center, NASA

 

"You have opened an area in Astrophysics which may revolutionize the magnetic energy problems
which is now the most paramount problem in future energy and space travel.
I do believe with proper research funds, the results would not only be a great financial boom to your financiers,
but would lead to developments that will be practical and beneficial to all mankind and develop a new step in science."

--- Dr. E. L. Moragne, MORAGNE RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT CO.
[Dr. Moragne was an electromagnetic pioneer in the development of the first atomic bomb.]

*   *   *   *   *

--============_-1100354047==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 25 08:39:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2PGcxeW003561; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:39:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2PGcigc003313; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:38:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:38:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42443F19.8030009 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:40:57 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sci. Am. attacks CF again References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050325101109.02b6f670 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050325101109.02b6f670 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well Jed, if this the worst they can do, I'm not worried. In fact, they might have also said that my next car would run on hydrogen or french-fry grease with as much sarcasm. Actually, I expect my next car will be a hybrid Diesel running on biofuel mixed with a fuel made from oil and coal. Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > The Sci. Am. has attacked cold fusion again, two months in a row. See > the illustration to the April fools editorial, print edition page 10. > > - Jed > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 25 12:17:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2PKHVeW031467; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:17:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2PKHMR0031405; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:17:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:17:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050325151553.02c27f68 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:17:03 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: C. Beaudette responds to DoE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58658 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/BeaudetteCresponseto.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 25 14:24:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2PMOmOu024685; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:24:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2PMOjWl024658; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:24:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:24:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050325172300.02979e28 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:23:41 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Important Changes to Your Citizenship Agreement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is pretty funny, and spooky: http://slate.msn.com/id/2115254/ - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 25 14:27:32 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2PMREOu026313; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:27:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2PMR8LX026255; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:27:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:27:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050325172528.02979908 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:26:26 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Important Changes to Your Citizenship Agreement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <7LflND.A.7ZG.7AJRCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is especially funny: "SECTION 16 This amendment affects the Right to Privacy section of your agreement. Under the new terms, the Right to Privacy must be applied for on an individual basis. To apply for your Right to Privacy, you must send your full credit history, a copy of your party registration and church membership, a complete set of fingerprints, a DNA sample, and two (2) passport-size photographs of your bedroom to: National Privacy Registry, Washington, DC, 20012-3006, att: Doris." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 25 15:28:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2PNSMtt032310; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:28:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2PNSDsC032248; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:28:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:28:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050325180524.02ab56b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:27:58 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: ****NEWS CONFERENCE AT THE NATIONAL PRESS CLUB In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I assume these quotes from scientists at UNISYS and NASA are genuine. I have to admit it is impressive that Newman has convinced such people. It is even more impressive knowing the sort of person he is. I have had one phone conversation with him. He seemed about as unconvincing as anyone could be. If these scientists are convinced despite his personality, he must have compelling evidence. There is just enough seemingly real substance to Newman's claims to put them in the "regrettable" category. This category is for claims which may just be real, but we will never know because the inventor is a lunatic, or dead, or both. There are many categories of over unity machines. Here are some of the common ones, from bad to good: Preposterous. There are hundreds of these claims. Extremely unlikely with no evidence as far as anyone knows. Hundreds more. It is best to ignore them. Extremely unlikely with anecdotal evidence only. There is no point to investigating or pursuing these claims. Extremely unlikely with anecdotal evidence and lousy experiments only, that were never independently confirmed or replicated. Somewhat regrettable but mainly a farce. Correa fall in this category, in my opinion. Extremely unlikely but for some reason a few apparently legitimate experts are convinced. Regrettable. Newman is the best example. Unlikely with anecdotal evidence. A few experiments are reported that would be interesting if anyone had any good documentation for them. Unlikely but interesting. A few good experiments but not enough widespread replications to be convincing. Mills fits in this category in my opinion. Unlikely, yet reportedly replicated but not within the last 10 years. Fading away because all the people who replicated are dead or out of contact. The Griggs gadget is approaching this status. As far as I know it is real but I have no way to prove that conclusively. Unless something is done to rescue cold fusion, it will eventually enter this condition, as the researchers become incapacitated and die off. Ed Storms and some others are optimistic that it will be rescued, but I am not. Dead certain. Only CF is in this category as far as I know. I am certain of it, but if I and all the others who know about it grow old and die, it will be lost. A person who has met with the cold fusion researchers and who understands actuarial tables will not feel confident about the outcome. People have a tendency to act as if they will live forever, but I am acutely aware that 'art is long and life is short.' - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Mar 25 16:40:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2Q0eQtt005402; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:40:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2Q0eKLs005367; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:40:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:40:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <008d01c5319c$5c9dc5b0$eb50ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050325180524.02ab56b0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: ****NEWS CONFERENCE AT THE NATIONAL PRESS CLUB Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:38:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > I assume these quotes from scientists at UNISYS and NASA are genuine. The Hastings quote is quite old. I don't know about the others. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 26 00:44:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2Q8in8t020149; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:44:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2Q8iigq020120; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:44:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:44:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 02:45:14 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: RE: OT: The will of God Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1100295772==_ma============" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58663 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1100295772==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Horace Heffner replied >At 11:14 AM 3/24/5, thomas malloy wrote: > >>The idea that Yehovah, and Allah are the same entity is pure >>nonsense. Ditto for the idea that Shariah is a substitute for Torah. >>I thought I'd made the case adequately, but apparently I didn't. > >You completely failed to address the issue and you seem to not even >understand the point. > >Jews and Christians worship the god of Abraham. Islamists worship the god >of Abraham. If it is the same Abraham it is the same god. > You believe what you want to believe. I've pointed out that the two entities have; different names, different legal systems, and the train of human thought that they produced bore different fruit. If you still believe that they are the same entity, you have blinded yourself to what is obvious. > >So >>I'll try again. > >You might try addressing the premises or the logic which derives the >conclusion. > > >>>The difference lies in the words and thus opinions of men, not in the two >>>gods. Peace between these world factions must finally be won in the hearts >>>of humanity, not in the interpretation of scripture. >> >>More nonsense, why are there two world views? Two gods perhaps? > > >If you seek differences you always find them. If you seek peace the road >lies through what we share in common. > >Jews and Christians worship the god of Abraham. Islamists worship the god >of Abraham. If it is the same Abraham it is the same god. > There is only one way in which peace can be achieved when one system, or group of people, is sworn to destroy the other. One of us has to destroy the other. "When civilized men are unwilling to do what needs to be done in order to maintain their existence, they will be replaced by uncivilized men, who are willing to do what needs to be done." I believe that this quote is from Victor Davis Hanson, frequent guest on the Hugh Hewitt Show. If you doubt that Islam is sworn to destroy us, I'm happy to document this assertion. I have previously mentioned Prophet of Doom, and there are others, including Whallet Shumblot, a Moslem convert who will tell you the same thing. Terry Blanton posted; >I think you might find this of interest: >"There are certain striking similarities between the Hindu god >Brahma and his >consort Saraisvati, and the Jewish Abraham and >Sarai, that are more than mere >coincidences." >There is a general solution. If G-d is Omnipresent, there is but >One by exclusion; >and, all monotheistic religions are worshiping >the same G-d by definition. The story tells about two super human entities who are in a life and death struggle. One is bent on destroying as many humans as he can. He uses counterfeits in order to deceive men. I don't understand how you can conclude what you have in the above paragraph, you have to blind yourself to what is obvious. This in no way detracts from their being an omnipresent G-d. It's just that he has given us free will, to either serve him, or go our own way. like sheep. Steven Lawrence posted; >was, was "Abraham". He existed. (Whether he called himself Abraham >or the >name was altered in a scribal error is, of course, not >determinable, and also >somewhat irrelevant IMHO.) "Abraham"'s God >was, by definition and scribal >errors notwithstanding, Yhwh. I would refer to by previous postings about the Bible Code. I'm reading Cracking the Bible Code by Jeffery Satinover. He mentions that the Israeli's used Code to predict future events. The book was written before the Helitical (Legal) degree forbidding them (religious Jews) from saying so. If you question the statistical anomaly that the existence of the Codes represents, I have an ebook that addresses the subject. The existence of the Codes, and their making accurate predictions, is, IMHO, evidence of the Book's divine authorship. In addition, and far more subjectively, I would assert that the very strange incident of Melchizidek provides strong internal evidence for the historical authenticity of at least some of the stories of Abraham. Melshizidek means something like prince of righteousness, He had no physical lineage, and lived in what is now Jerusalem. In our opinion, (Rabbi, and mine) he is a picture of the coming Messiah. G-d in human form. >The name of Bethel, which has some significance in Jewish history, >is also >interesting: It means house of G-d. >which included Baal. which means the master. YHVH doesn't want to be our master, he wants to be our father, and husband. We submit to him because we love him. >Is it possible that Yhwh was connected in some way with the same pantheon? The word Elohiem is plural and it is clear from both the Torah, and the Book of Enoch, and the holy Zohar that the G-d head has a plurality, kind of like multiple personality. Furthermore, entities called called the sons of the elohim had sex with the daughters of men. This is where the Nepthilim came from. They were polluted by sin, and had at least some of the powers of G-d, the Hebrew word shum is translated in the KJV of the Book, as men of renown, the Tanach (Jewish Bible) uses the word devastation. While the plain text isn't clear, the Midrash (Teaching) goes into detail about their barbarous activities, which is why JHVH killed them all. --============_-1100295772==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" RE: OT: The will of God
Horace Heffner replied

At 11:14 AM 3/24/5, thomas malloy wrote:

>The idea that Yehovah, and Allah are the same entity is pure
>nonsense. Ditto for the idea that Shariah is a substitute for Torah.
>I thought I'd made the case adequately, but apparently I didn't.

You completely failed to address the issue and you seem to not even
understand the point.

Jews and Christians worship the god of Abraham.  Islamists worship the god
of Abraham.  If it is the same Abraham it is the same god.

You believe what you want to believe. I've pointed out that the two entities have; different names, different legal systems, and the train of human thought that they produced bore different fruit. If you still believe that they are the same entity, you have blinded yourself to what is obvious.

>So
>I'll try again.

You might try addressing the premises or the logic which derives the
conclusion.


>>The difference lies in the words and thus opinions of men, not in the two
>>gods. Peace between these world factions must finally be won in the hearts
>>of humanity, not in the interpretation of scripture.
>
>More nonsense, why are there two world views? Two gods perhaps?


If you seek differences you always find them.  If you seek peace the road
lies through what we share in common.

Jews and Christians worship the god of Abraham.  Islamists worship the god
of Abraham.  If it is the same Abraham it is the same god.


There is only one way in which peace can be achieved when one system, or group of people, is sworn to destroy the other. One of us has to destroy the other. "When civilized men are unwilling to do what needs to be done in order to maintain their existence, they will be replaced by uncivilized men, who are willing to do what needs to be done." I believe that this quote is from Victor Davis Hanson, frequent guest on the Hugh Hewitt Show.

If you doubt that Islam is sworn to destroy us, I'm happy to document this assertion. I have previously mentioned Prophet of Doom, and there are others, including Whallet Shumblot, a Moslem convert who will tell you the same thing.

Terry Blanton posted;

>I think you might find this of interest:
 
>"There are certain striking similarities between the Hindu god Brahma and his >consort Saraisvati, and the Jewish Abraham and Sarai, that are more than mere >coincidences."


>There is a general solution.  If G-d is Omnipresent, there is but One by exclusion; >and, all monotheistic religions are worshiping the same G-d by definition.

The story tells about two super human entities who are in a life and death struggle. One is bent on destroying as many humans as he can. He uses counterfeits in order to deceive men. I don't understand how you can conclude what you have in the above paragraph, you have to blind yourself to what is obvious.

This in no way detracts from their being an omnipresent G-d. It's just that he has given us free will, to either serve him, or go our own way. like sheep.
 

Steven Lawrence posted;

>was, was "Abraham".  He existed.  (Whether he called himself Abraham or the >name was altered in a scribal error is, of course, not determinable, and also >somewhat irrelevant IMHO.)  "Abraham"'s God was, by definition and scribal >errors notwithstanding, Yhwh.

I would refer to by previous postings about the Bible Code. I'm reading Cracking the Bible Code by Jeffery Satinover. He mentions that the Israeli's used Code to predict future events. The book was written before the Helitical (Legal) degree forbidding them (religious Jews) from saying so. If you question the statistical anomaly that the existence of the Codes represents, I have an ebook that addresses the subject. The existence of the Codes, and their making accurate predictions, is, IMHO, evidence of the Book's divine authorship.

In addition, and far more subjectively, I would assert that the very strange incident of Melchizidek provides strong internal evidence for the historical authenticity of at least some of the stories of Abraham.

Melshizidek means something like prince of righteousness, He had no physical lineage, and lived in what is now Jerusalem. In our opinion, (Rabbi, and mine) he is a picture of the coming Messiah. G-d in human form.


>The name of Bethel, which has some significance in Jewish history, is also >interesting:

It means house of G-d.

 >which included Baal.

which means the master. YHVH doesn't want to be our master, he wants to be our father, and husband. We submit to him because we love him.

>Is it possible that Yhwh was connected in some way with the same pantheon?

The word Elohiem is plural and it is clear from both the Torah, and the Book of Enoch, and the holy Zohar that the G-d head has a plurality, kind of like multiple personality.

Furthermore, entities called called the sons of the elohim had sex with the daughters of men. This is where the Nepthilim came from. They were polluted by sin, and had at least some of the powers of G-d, the Hebrew word shum is translated in the KJV of the Book, as men of renown, the Tanach (Jewish Bible) uses the word devastation. While the plain text isn't clear, the Midrash (Teaching) goes into detail about their barbarous activities, which is why JHVH killed them all.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                


--============_-1100295772==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 26 00:46:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2Q8jq8t020693; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:45:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2Q8jp8p020681; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:45:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:45:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20050322145859.5668.qmail web54502.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050322145859.5668.qmail web54502.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 02:46:29 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: OT: The will of God Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Merlyn replied; >Fundamentalists always cite that God influenced those >keepers of knowledge so that the translation is just >as accurate as the original, but I have problems >believing that. History abounds with examples of men >misinterpreting scripture to justify heinous acts. That's why it's important to learn to read Hebrew. We know that the text has come down to us unchanged because Bible Code works. It's not just that it's there, but it has accurately predicted events. > >--- "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: >> >> >> Merlyn wrote: >> >As for prophecy, that's all in the interpretation, >> > True, but Evangelical Christians, who approach the Bible as inerrorant, and literal have by in large come to the same conclusions > > > This verse NAMES CYRUS, specifically, and designates >> him the instrument >> to be used in ending the Exile. Cyrus was born >> perhaps 150 years after >> Isaiah died. No way this was just a lucky guess!! >> And it's not open to > > much "interpretation". Alexander the Great was so impressed with the prophecies concerning him that he set up a commission to translate the Hebrew version into Greek. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 26 05:21:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2QDLL8t018790; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:21:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2QDLFZZ018763; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:21:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:21:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000d01c53207$281bd640$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <20050324205342.88175.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> <42432EF5.4040709@pobox.com> Subject: Re: OT: The will of God (key points and loose ends) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:24:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: <7RcVgD.A.IlE.LHWRCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 4:19 PM Subject: Re: OT: The will of God Lucifer is, of course, not exactly big on humankind -- according to the Testament of Moses he is horribly jealous of Adam's place in the universe and hence detests all humans. It is Lucifer's goal to destroy the human race. To do this he must separate us from our Creator God and must prevent our reconciliation with God by discrediting our our only means of reconciliation, Jesus Christ, God the Son. To do that he must prevent or destroy our faith. Jesus, the myth, can't save you. Jesus, the good man, can't save you. Jesus, the teacher, can't save you. Jesus, the prophet, can't save you. Only Jesus, God in the flesh, has the power to save you, and then only if you truly believe He is who He said He was. One of Lucifer's two most successful strategies is to start false religions. He's been doing it for thousands of years and it is still happening today. Some exclude Jesus entirely, but the exclusion of Jesus is not necessary. Just portray Jesus as less than God and the scam is a success. The other key strategy is to convince humans that he (Lucifer) doesn't even exist. We wouldn't be on guard against someone who does not exist, would we? Jeff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 26 06:43:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2QEhc8t019919; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 06:43:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2QEhZda019895; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 06:43:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 06:43:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Nq7dtQ8sNUhGfko0ycS7DcUt08b7Xnr1ys5K/27m+e+6uKE1lbojDQ0KwcZwNWbyFnq6+An387bI+YuAzyK8e5YG8txI2042BWtgnxD+ALHFuR6QjxF+er6fHRCkYf4KpHJIgOy3NpwDssH6lak7fv8hZuHjGeu5hQ7DORhwhZU= ; Message-ID: <20050326144328.82437.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 06:43:28 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: OT: The will of God (key points and loose ends) To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- revtec wrote: > Lucifer is Lucifer is not Satan. There is but one reference to Lucifer in the bible. Do you know it and to what it refers? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 26 08:00:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2QG0K91000451; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:00:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2QFZnx0014288; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 07:35:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 07:35:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 06:35:50 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: OT: The will of God Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:45 AM 3/26/5, thomas malloy wrote: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >Horace Heffner replied > >>At 11:14 AM 3/24/5, thomas malloy wrote: >> >>>The idea that Yehovah, and Allah are the same entity is pure >>>nonsense. Ditto for the idea that Shariah is a substitute for Torah. >>>I thought I'd made the case adequately, but apparently I didn't. >> >>You completely failed to address the issue and you seem to not even >>understand the point. >> >>Jews and Christians worship the god of Abraham. Islamists worship the god >>of Abraham. If it is the same Abraham it is the same god. >> > >You believe what you want to believe. I have suggested two propositions and a conclusion. These things are not a matter of my faith or what I believe. What matters is the general doctrine of Christians, Jews, and Moslems concerning Abraham and his one god. >I've pointed out that the two >entities have; different names, different legal systems, and the >train of human thought that they produced bore different fruit. If >you still believe that they are the same entity, you have blinded >yourself to what is obvious. Once again you have failed to address either the propositions or the logic. Instead you again frame the problem as a matter of personal faith and attack the conclusion on the basis of what men have done in the interim. [snip] >There is only one way in which peace can be achieved when one system, >or group of people, is sworn to destroy the other. One of us has to >destroy the other. "When civilized men are unwilling to do what needs >to be done in order to maintain their existence, they will be >replaced by uncivilized men, who are willing to do what needs to be >done." I believe that this quote is from Victor Davis Hanson, >frequent guest on the Hugh Hewitt Show. Genocide can not be the only means to peace. If anything in this world is utterly evil, genocide has to be at the top of the list. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 26 08:51:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2QGpP8t025926; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:51:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2QGpJmq025876; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:51:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:51:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42459396.8070001 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:53:42 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The will of God References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The "my God is better than your God" approach to religion disgusts and frightens me. This use of God is only a thin disguise used by one group to justify taking life, liberty, and property from another group. For example, the white race thought they had the God given right to enslave the blacks and the Germans thought they had the God given right to kill the Jews and other people, to provide only some recent examples. The use of a god justification does not excuse the actions. This attitude is so alien to the basic teachings of all religions that it is a wonder that a sane person would have the nerve to make such an argument. Christ, as well as every other spokesman of God, taught us to treat others as you would treat ourselves. This is not limited only to those people who worship our idea of God, an idea I might add that changes with time. Christians are taught that we are all made in the image of God. This concept is not applied only to Christians. We are all part of God, we are all trying to make sense of a confused message, and we all are expected to give each other a chance to learn the message in our own way. Killing or condemning other people who fail to learn our lesson or share our limited beliefs is not permitted. When hate and killing is motivated and justified by assuming that the action is God's wish, civilization breaks down and countries are destroyed. How often must these events be repeated before people learn that this approach leads to disaster. If evil exists in the would, this attitude must be at the top of the list. Ed Horace Heffner wrote: > At 2:45 AM 3/26/5, thomas malloy wrote: > >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >> >>Horace Heffner replied >> >> >>>At 11:14 AM 3/24/5, thomas malloy wrote: >>> >>> >>>>The idea that Yehovah, and Allah are the same entity is pure >>>>nonsense. Ditto for the idea that Shariah is a substitute for Torah. >>>>I thought I'd made the case adequately, but apparently I didn't. >>> >>>You completely failed to address the issue and you seem to not even >>>understand the point. >>> >>>Jews and Christians worship the god of Abraham. Islamists worship the god >>>of Abraham. If it is the same Abraham it is the same god. >>> >> >>You believe what you want to believe. > > > I have suggested two propositions and a conclusion. These things are not a > matter of my faith or what I believe. What matters is the general doctrine > of Christians, Jews, and Moslems concerning Abraham and his one god. > > > > >>I've pointed out that the two >>entities have; different names, different legal systems, and the >>train of human thought that they produced bore different fruit. If >>you still believe that they are the same entity, you have blinded >>yourself to what is obvious. > > > > Once again you have failed to address either the propositions or the logic. > Instead you again frame the problem as a matter of personal faith and > attack the conclusion on the basis of what men have done in the interim. > > > [snip] > >>There is only one way in which peace can be achieved when one system, >>or group of people, is sworn to destroy the other. One of us has to >>destroy the other. "When civilized men are unwilling to do what needs >>to be done in order to maintain their existence, they will be >>replaced by uncivilized men, who are willing to do what needs to be >>done." I believe that this quote is from Victor Davis Hanson, >>frequent guest on the Hugh Hewitt Show. > > > > Genocide can not be the only means to peace. If anything in this world is > utterly evil, genocide has to be at the top of the list. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 26 11:45:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2QJj78t010576; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:45:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2QJiv8t010453; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:44:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:44:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220053626194421760 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, March 25, 2005 Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:44:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d81e694fe6931daec9f5c8008c45ef086689663e5c6b578e64350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.111.107 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58669 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: What's New > To: Akira Kawasaki > Date: 3/25/2005 11:44:16 AM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, March 25, 2005 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 25 Mar 05 Washington, DC 1. FREEDOM ELEMENT: DO YOU KNOW HOW EASY IT IS TO SELL BALONEY? In his 2003 State-of-the-Union address, President Bush called for building a Freedom Car, "powered by hydrogen and pollution free" http://www.aps.org/WN/WN03/wn013103.cfm. Baloney, but people didn't ask where the hydrogen will come from. They asked if it's safe. Hey, it's fuel -- fuel burns. However, Dr. Addison Bain insists that in the 1937 Hindenburg disaster, it was the paint that burned, and compared it to rocket fuel. More baloney, but guess who bought it http://www.aps.org/apsnews/0700/070004.cfm? However, A.J. Dessler, D.E. Overs and W.H. Appleby found the burn rate of an actual piece of Hindenburg fabric to be thousands of times too slow. The fire consumed the Hindenburg in 34 seconds. If the 800 foot-long craft was painted with solid rocket fuel, it would have taken 12 hours to burn end to end. Dessler is a PhD physicist (Duke), 26 years as Professor of Space Physics and Astronomy at Rice (15 years as Dept Chair), directed the NASA Marshall Space Sciences Lab (4 years), and is Sr. Scientist at Univ of Arizona, Lunar and Planetary Lab. What about Dr. Bain? 2. DIPLOMA MILLS: MAYBE THEY CAN GET TOGETHER FOR CLASS REUNIONS. In his memoir, The Freedom Element: Living with Hydrogen, Doctor Bain says he is a former manager of hydrogen programs at Kennedy Space Center, but what is he a "doctor" of? He writes of being "teary-eyed" at finally becoming a PhD, but nowhere mentions his alma mater. Even the bio on the jacket of his book gave no clue. A Google search turned up nothing after Flathead High School in Montana. Someone suggested we try California Coast University, a "distance-learning" university in Santa Ana. That's where Lynn Ianni, the therapist for "The Swan" on Fox Television, became Doctor Ianni in 1998. Although CCU has no campus, that's not a problem; it has no courses. There, in the same graduating class with Dr. Ianni, getting a Management PhD, was Dr. Addison Bain. Now look at me, would you? Here I am getting all teary-eyed too. 3. SCIENCE BY INTIMIDATION: DOES BEING RIGHT COUNT FOR NOTHING? The 2003 IMAX film "Volcanoes of the Deep Sea," sponsored by NSF and Rutgers, would seem to be just the sort of documentary that science centers thrive on. Not exactly. It was turned down by a dozen Science Centers, mostly in the South, because of a few brief references to evolution. There goes the profit margin. The result is that IMAX films just aren't made if the science might offend the religious right. It's worse in schools. Even if there is no prohibition on teaching evolution, teachers leave it out rather than listen to all the complaints. In the 1925 Scopes trial, Clarence Darrow said, "John Scopes isn't on trial, civilization is on trial." It still is. And it's losing. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 26 13:23:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2QLMw8t005130; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:22:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2QLMj20005034; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:22:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:22:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <410-220053626212119740 ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: aki ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.1.47.0 (Windows) From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: "vortex-l" Subject: APS-2005. SESSION-U30 Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:21:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d840fea5b6134cdfb56cbd232e67b190b4f2fd1faeb0efa699350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.111.107 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58670 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII March 26, 2005 Vortex, The Cold Fusion Session at the APS-2005 Nation Convention came and went as if was a non-event. I thought there would be a report on it here by now but absent that, here is my two cent's (plain) worth. The session was video-taped by Steven Krivit. He indicated the session would be made available by MP4 format online.When, I dunno. The chairman of the session was Scott Chubb. He read some papers presented in absentia. These were Storms, Swartz, and T. Chubb. Stringham sent over a DVD Power Point of his presentation. Russ George was present and gave his combined report. Miles (and wife) was present and gave his report in person. Steve Krivit also made a presentation. The session started with less than twenty present. Halfway through, it was half full with over fifty present. The small hall has a capacity of about 120 There were quite a bit of Power Point presentations. I believe Miles' paper was the only one using a slide projector. There were not much questions and answers. The presentation abstracts are available at the APS website under March Meetings. Good Hunting! -ak- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
March 26, 2005
 
Vortex,
 
The Cold Fusion Session at the APS-2005 Nation Convention came and went as if was a non-event.
I thought there would be a report on it here by now but absent that, here is my two cent's (plain) worth.
 
The session was video-taped by Steven Krivit. He indicated the session would be made available by MP4 format online.When, I dunno.
The chairman of the session was Scott Chubb. He read some papers presented in absentia. These were Storms, Swartz, and T. Chubb. Stringham sent over a DVD Power Point of his presentation.
Russ George was present and gave his combined report. Miles (and wife) was present and gave his report in person. Steve Krivit also made a presentation.
The session started with less than twenty present. Halfway through, it was half full with over fifty present. The small hall has a capacity of about 120
There were quite a bit of Power Point presentations. I believe Miles' paper was the only one using a slide projector.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              &nbs! p;                    
There were not much questions and answers.
The presentation abstracts are available at the APS website under March Meetings. Good Hunting!
 
-ak-
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 26 15:13:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2QNDajr016005; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 15:13:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2QNDWD3015975; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 15:13:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 15:13:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Detroit Pushing Diesel Hybrids Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 09:13:20 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050322222252.56513.qmail web51709.mail.yahoo.com> <003201c53058$31531170$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> In-Reply-To: <003201c53058$31531170$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2QNDRjr015881 Resent-Message-ID: <3XrhfD.A.i5D.cyeRCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Nick Palmer's message of Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:55:33 -0000: Hi, [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk wrote:- > ><http://www.dolphinaci.com/technology/technology.html are already >getting 90+ mpg in some tests, and outperforming the Prius in all >tests, and all they have done is somewhat modify a conventional >engine>> > >Be careful about believing these results from one of the Joseph LaStella >stable of companies... > You may be correct. The only independent results I could find were from http://www.challengebibendum.com/challenge/front/affich.jsp?codeRubrique=26&lang=EN (for 2001) - click on Official Results "Prototypes" at the bottom of the page. The vehicle in question is the first entry in the table. It appears to have scored badly in most categories, including efficiency. BTW I managed to track down the meaning of the scores, in a PDF document from the 2003 event see http://servicesv2.webmichelin.com/frontnews/servlet/GetElement?elementCode=11331 wherein a D for fuel efficiency implies < 21 mpg for small cars. I assume this also applies to the 2001 results. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 26 17:39:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2R1cqbX024448; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:38:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2R1cl5K024386; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:38:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:38:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 16:39:56 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: OT: The will of God (key points and loose ends) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:43 AM 3/26/5, Terry Blanton wrote: >Lucifer is not Satan. There is but one reference to >Lucifer in the bible. Do you know it and to what it refers? Perhaps you refer to Is 14:12: "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the Dawn! You have been cast down to earth, you who once laid low the nations!" Is 14:12 is also translated as: "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground - mighty though you once were against the nations of the world." This is a metaphorical reference by Isaiah likening the King of Bayblon to Helal ben Shahar, the day star, son of dawn, who in Canaanite myth wanted to be chief god but was hurled down to earth instead. Uncanny the relvance and possible future relevance of Isaiah to modern times. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 26 19:09:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2R39WbX029548; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:09:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2R39ShM029515; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:09:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:09:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=QLQF60ju6lHuoh4dO+oafeozf1jcNDoDUmWKBfTfJOqw72lJbffCKdLXFPtFOD5mW2hpQdNq83V40bU24jwBO0Vnqq3TiG0nl8G2yCvGe2ljFwuDB7zp+yI0lf4KbDX6WXhAa0fMLuqegsnRf4iUjBg5rdJsRPjPq1LF52y9a7Y= ; Message-ID: <20050327030919.90132.qmail web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:09:19 -0800 (PST) From: Kyle Mcallister Subject: Vanity of vanities.... To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: “Vanity of vanities, all is vanity” Truer words were never spoken, it seems to me as of late. Indeed it seems to me that we live in a world of nothing but hatred and negativity, where no one believes in anything greater than “what has gone before” and that we are on a continuing Archimedian spiral into the deepest alcoves of desperation. And from my point of view, ultimately, to utter destruction. Maybe this will sound farcical or ridiculous, but it is true, and I feel it with my entire being and soul, nevertheless here it is: I love humanity to no end, and wish I could somehow do whatever was necessary to make the world the great place I was told in my childhood that it eventually could become. I love the world so bad it hurts, and as it is said, there is a fine line between both love and hate, and genius and insanity. The first two I’ve known well. The genius part, well, I don’t know, but I have to wonder if I am losing my mind slowly because of all this happening around me. Someone once said that if you believe you are going crazy, you aren’t. I don’t know if that is true. So here’s a few things to think about; call them a few of “my personal demons.” 1. Oil Crash. I don’t know if this is real or not. There is so much lying and deception out there, so many people with their own motives that who knows if this is a real problem or not. This includes global warming. If global warming is indeed real, and a threat, then we should do something about it now. And if some put-upon rich people and business moguls get hurt in the process, well, that as they say is life. Development of alternative energy sources which actually WORK needs to be done immediately. If it be cold fusion, space-based solar energy, thermonuclear fusion, or whatever, then let it begin now. Not tomorrow, not when it is affordable and good for the economy, but NOW! If this is NOT real, if the peak oil problem is a fiction, and there is no catastrophe in sight, then of course we should still pursue alternatives with vigor. It would give the nation, and indeed, the world something to due rather than sit around in relative boredom. I believe boredom breeds warfare and unrest. People need obstacles to tackle and things to do, otherwise we wither and become depressed, and ultimately begin to hate each other. If it turns out that global warming is not anywhere near the severity as is proclaimed, then we need to have a serious look at the EPA and its various machinations. And make it a harsh look while we are at it. If it turns out that the oil crisis (real or not) is an engineered method for those in government set to profit from it to increase profits, and for the businessmen behind it to get richer while the rest of us suffer for it, then I am at a loss to suggest a solution. This is a crime that surpasses individual, state or even national level. It is a crime against the human race. For that crime, the punishment, whatever it be, should be fierce and indeed so terribly frightening that no one will ever dare to repeat it again. Maybe that sounds harsh, but how else can it ever be prevented again? 2. Cars. I don’t drive an SUV, in fact I don’t like them at all, because they have a nice tendency to lose control here in Buffalo, NY, during the snowy season, and careen all over the road. I drive a 1990 Buick Regal, which gets about 20mpg. Not great, but I can’t afford a Prius, nor do I want one. They are grotesquely ugly things, made of plastic which is sure not going to win a collision with a larger vehicle, and are extremely expensive to purchase and maintain. No, hybrids are no option for us ‘little guys’. And a European car? Forget it, I will never own one. If a ball joint goes out in my car, I can get one for ~$15. In a Mercedes-Benz? ~$250-300 apiece. I kid you not, I am a mechanic who works on European cars all day long. I have seen it, and it is outrageous. Jed, $4000 for a valve job on a Volvo is pretty cheap. Try frying the motor in a late-model Audi. Easy to do, as well: you just don’t change the timing belt every 50,000 miles, and the belt will snap, ramming the valves into the tops of the pistons, shredding the motor. Many kilobucks later, you are back on the road. Oh, and how much does it cost to replace the timing belt every 50k? Upwards of $1,200 where I work, which is cheap as I understand it. You have to remove the entire front bumper and clip assembly, radiator, discharge the AC condenser, etc., to get to the timing cover. You literally have to disassemble the entire front end of the car!!! All because some bespectacled idiot who probably never got his hands greasy in his life decided to design a “modern engine”. I rebuilt the 305 small block in my 1986 Chevrolet Monte Carlo for less than $1,000, and that includes the NEW carburetor, NEW headers, NEW intake manifold, NEW HEI distributor, wires, cap, rotor, plugs, oil, motor mounts, frame pads, chrome air cleaner, chrome valve covers, camshaft, lifters, piston rings (I got the good ones, too), main/rod bearings, cam bearings. Everything. Initially I got about 10-12mpg. By adjusting my driving habits, modifying the timing profile, screwing around with the plug electrodes, and doing a few tricks to the carburetor, I was able to get 25mpg on the interstate. In a 5.0L, non-emission controlled, carbureted, no-nonsense motor. The emissions levels as measured from the tailpipe(s) were not bad, in fact they passed the federal standards. If I were to put catalytic converters back on it, I would probably be able to breathe the exhaust. I loved that car, and it was cheap to work on and maintain. Regardless of its mileage and low emissions levels, it is illegal for me to drive it, since it will not pass inspection. Why? The motor is 8 cylinders, as opposed to the original 6 cylinder which was in it when I got it. This tells me something: whoever is behind the emissions program, at least where I live, doesn’t give a damn about the environment. They have their own reasons. And I realize that 25mpg and just-below-federal emissions are not the solution….but it sure is a step in the right direction. And the thing has a steel body and frame. If a Prius was on a collision course with me, I can step on the gas and I will MOVE out of harm’s way. And if the collision is unavoidable, well, let’s see how Joe EPA’s Prius survives a close encounter with 3700+ pounds of steel. 3. Religion. I don’t know how many of you, my fellow Vortexians, are religious. I would hazard to guess several of you are atheists or agnostics. That is ok by me. It is your choice. I, personally, do believe in a higher power, the nature of which is probably completely beyond conventional human understanding. Yes, I call this power “God”. Not G-d. (Isn’t G-d short for a “G**d***”?) If there are those out there who are offended by my not abbreviating the term “God”, then I am sorry, please get the hell (h-ll?) over it. The same antigods who scream unendingly about being offended by hearing religious remarks offend quite a few people themselves with their endless ranting. These babies need to grow up. Notice I said “antigods” as opposed to atheists/agnostics. Most atheists and agnostics I know do NOT take a harsh exception to religious people at all. They just don’t believe it, but are tolerate and accepting of another person’s rights to believe what they want. I have many friends who are atheist/agnostic. If they ask me specifically what I believe, I tell them. Otherwise I don’t try to cram it down their throat TV-evangelical style. It is a sad and terrible thing that the benevolent teachings of Jesus Christ are perverted by modern people calling themselves “Christians.” It is used to justify hate and malice. Why? In my understanding, what Jesus Christ was teaching was peace, love and to work together. Regardless of whether or not you are a Christian, Muslim, Jew, atheist, whatever, the message is a good one. As a few last notes on this point: I do believe in evolution of some kind, whether or not it is Darwinian remains to be seen, in my opinion. I also believe the Earth is about 4.6 billion years old, not 6,000. I get this crammed down my throat by overly-fanatical religious people all the time, they seem to think it is somehow anti-Christian to believe in modern science. I find that religion and science complement one another quite well. So there is bad on both sides, and here I am stuck in the middle. Hmmm…interesting thought: in a previous post, it was argued that animals might see what humans do to them as evil, and that an extraterrestrial observer (the example used was a Martian) might wonder whether or not what humans do to one another is just natural or is evil. Can not this be applied to the same antigod argument that a just God would not allow death and pain? Think about this. Maybe there are some animals who do not believe in humans, because why would a higher power allow such evil to happen to them? 4. Women. Every time I go to the store, what do I see plastered all over the checkout aisles? No, not the candy. Magazines. Do I ever see anything scientific? Nope, its all “shrink your belly in 12.8 milliseconds” or “lose 400 pounds in 8 hours!”. All these showing women triumphantly holding out the elastic waistbands of pants that are now too big for them. And the magazines that do not show this invariably show an emaciated-looking woman posing provocatively with very little clothing. What does this say about our society’s view of females? I try not to look at these magazines, because I hate them. The message they are sending is absolutely terrible and destructive to the happiness and well-being of women, particularly young teenage girls who become ingrained with the idea that they have to look like that to make it in this world. This should be a crime with a very harsh punishment. I am a rather young man, young enough to still encounter younger members of the opposite sex, particularly those who are friends and acquaintances of my wife-to-be. This is very real, and a real problem. These girls and women truly believe that unless they are absolutely the thinnest possible and still able to be alive, that they are ugly. Why are we doing this to the female members of our human race!?! Why are we allowing these people to cause such mental pain and misery in the minds of these women? No, I don’t believe the fight for women’s rights won. From where I am sitting, some battles may have been won, but it lost overall. So many beautiful people, hurt by something so unnatural and unrealistic. The fields in which women work is also a sad thing. So few women scientists. In my experience, women think differently than men do. Would not science be better off if we had a greater varieties of different-working minds looking at the problems? It is getting better, yes. But there is still a long way to go. This doesn’t need government-aid or affirmative action either. It needs something deeper. 5. Cold Fusion. I don’t know much about it, truthfully, but from my limited understand, something is going on which merits serious investigation. There should be funding for this and active support for it from university and governmental levels. The quasi-evangelical hatred of this field by most of mainstream science is deplorable. I hope I live to see the day that it becomes known that there really was something happening in those electrolysis cells of glass and plastic. I hope that those who stood in its way for so long are eventually forced to recant and face the consequences of their actions. Indeed, I feel that those in high-standing positions should be forced resign and forever be reminded of their actions against humankind as a whole. I hope that the effect, whatever it is, can be quickly made into something which will help people everywhere, not just here but throughout the world. I hope……… 6. The Dead. There is not much for me to say here….so many great people dying. Why do so many wonderful people die, and yet the worst elements of humanity live on? How many brilliant minds have had their Promethian flames extinguished by so little of things as mere want of a piece of bread in Africa, or Indochina? And yet here, in pampered comfort and standing in the way of any hope or dream humanity comes up with, forever cursing the dreams of those who believe in reaching out to the stars for ALL mankind, forever attacking those honest men and women struggling with a potential energy source of untold magnitude, here lives on the great Dr. Robert Park. Apologies for the length and controversial nature. God bless you all, --Kyle __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 26 19:43:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2R3hJbX010830; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:43:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2R3hDPw010801; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:43:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:43:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=qzUiV1j8s4ZZ67Kat5EdZ4sdp9ReH2wKCo8QoPMS7ywJb3ce8duUwPMUtLK09TCu+r2vzSvFS0GhKVqwIudgbRdIDWEP53Y/M+XkRSL4OM6p1t9ZDxST2iBenqYQzadLvFZUvW4EmZ5SzEI7zF5K6bM/pQMwGg3Uy/0x3s7fVG0= ; Message-ID: <20050327034300.77966.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:43:00 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: OT: The will of God (key points and loose ends) To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Horace Heffner wrote: > Uncanny the relvance and possible future relevance > of Isaiah to modern times. Yathink? The PVTs (Prophet Veracity Filters) of the time were quite sharp and steep. "I came *this* close . . . " __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 26 20:58:10 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2R4w1bX009593; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:58:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2R4vtRm009564; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:57:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:57:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000a01c53289$7d1ba800$0100007f xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Easter Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:56:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C53257.1B0EDE70"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <4h2EQD.A.ZVC.T1jRCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C53257.1B0EDE70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C53257.1B11EBB0" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C53257.1B11EBB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankEaster is a holiday date set aside to celebrate the resurrection of = our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.=20 I confess that Jesus has come in the flesh, He was crucified to death on = the cross, He rose from the dead on the third day and now sits in Heaven = at the right hand of the Father. I believe His teachings are true and = edifying to mankind. His love bestoyed upon us in his word lifts our = hearts in joy ,love, peace, and hope. Paul, his servant slave wrote; and be kind to one another, tender = hearted and forgiving one another. We are to love God, our Heavenly = Father with all our heart, all our soul, all our might, all or mind ,and = love our neighbor as ourselves. Man spend a lifetime working out his belief systems, testing, evaluating = and proving truth. Truth came in the flesh and was crucified by me. My = hope is that all will come to a saving knowledge of our Lord and Savior = Jesus Christ all to the glory of God the Father. I cannot tell you how = to find your way in this world, I can tell you what wonderful things = that God has done for me as a witness and testimony of His unfailing = love and grace. I cannot argue religion because I lack debating skills. I have proven my = Lord to myself and that is sufficent to me for my life. At 77 years, I = have seen much, heard more and know less than when I thought I knew it = all. The Vortex group remains a viable site that enriches the mind and = provokes thought while allowing diversity. I commend each for their wisdom and tolerance that allows freedom of = discussion and thought to be submitted to a candid world. Lets get back = to science.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C53257.1B11EBB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Easter is a holiday date set aside = to celebrate the=20 resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
 
I confess that Jesus has come in the = flesh, He=20 was crucified to death on the cross, He rose from the dead on the third = day=20 and now sits in Heaven at the right hand of the Father. I = believe His=20 teachings are true and edifying to mankind. His love bestoyed upon us in = his=20 word lifts our hearts in joy ,love, peace, and hope.
Paul, his servant slave wrote; and be = kind to one=20 another, tender hearted and forgiving one another. We are to love God, = our=20 Heavenly Father with all our heart, all our soul, all our might, all or = mind=20 ,and love our neighbor as ourselves.
 
Man spend a lifetime working out = his belief=20 systems, testing, evaluating and proving truth. Truth came in the flesh = and was=20 crucified by me. My hope is that all will come to a saving knowledge of = our Lord=20 and Savior Jesus Christ all to the glory of God the Father. I cannot = tell you=20 how to find your way in this world, I can tell you what wonderful things = that=20 God has done for me as a witness and testimony of His unfailing love and = grace.
 
I cannot argue religion because I lack = debating skills.=20 I have proven my Lord to myself and that is sufficent to me for my life. = At 77=20 years, I have seen much, heard more and know less than when I thought I = knew it=20 all.
 
The Vortex group remains a viable site that = enriches the=20 mind and provokes thought while allowing diversity.
I commend each for their wisdom and tolerance = that=20 allows freedom of discussion and thought to be submitted to a candid = world. Lets=20 get back to science.
 
Richard
 
 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C53257.1B11EBB0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C53257.1B0EDE70 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000501c53289$656f52b0$0100007f xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C53257.1B0EDE70-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Mar 26 21:27:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2R5RkbX020447; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 21:27:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2R5Rj2O020424; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 21:27:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 21:27:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=4tuZKIAxBaAlyye8WNhudYmhe5E0LBfFPlcHk5ZDUu9sLsd+y8QJBjYwIh5o+O68xH9xtRmimTSQ6nmAQ5LpsJqyuedzhJzV63FtQARrFsJ5PJ7jAYWGGc++6+2J46lLTRNCk0e0/tBfl+9NKbQxJKh3fJg5uuMG29PwKdd8Ouc= ; Message-ID: <20050327052734.99009.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 21:27:34 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: [OT] Re: Easter To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: What compels you to do this? --- RC Macaulay wrote: > > I confess that Jesus has come in the flesh, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 27 08:19:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2RGInFv010325; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:18:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2RGIhFZ010274; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:18:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:18:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20050327082508.03186de0 mail.dlsi.net> X-Sender: steven%newenergytimes.com mail.dlsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:25:21 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Steven Krivit Subject: Re: Easter In-Reply-To: <000a01c53289$7d1ba800$0100007f xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_-1397662281==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --=====================_-1397662281==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Lets get back to science. > >Richard Amen to that! s --=====================_-1397662281==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Lets get back to science.
 
Richard

Amen to that!

s --=====================_-1397662281==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 27 08:43:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2RGh2Fv021043; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:43:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2RGgx5C020989; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:42:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:42:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001a01c532ec$2fbe52c0$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <20050327052734.99009.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Easter Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:44:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I can't claim to speak for Mr. Macauley, who is perhaps more clear in his position than I have been, but for myself, proclaiming the deity of Christ is essential to the faith. "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him will I confess before My Father who is in heaven. But, whoever denies Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father who is in heaven." Matt. 10:32-33 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 12:27 AM Subject: [OT] Re: Easter > What compels you to do this? > > --- RC Macaulay wrote: > > > > I confess that Jesus has come in the flesh, > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 27 11:08:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2RJ88Fv032434; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:08:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2RJ7tCC032358; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:07:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:07:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050327190647.00688404 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 19:06:47 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In his post of 22 February 2005 (attached below) Jones outlined a farsighted procedure for harnessing the Beta-atmosphere/ZPE using "extremely energetic mechanical failure, which can be due to brittle failure, or to phase- shift (allotrope) failure." Jones points out the large energy available by using Ice 9. Recently studying Professor Chaplin's phase diagrams on http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/phase.html I have realised that there is a relatively simple way to harness the huge strain energy inherent in liquid water which is partially released when water turns to normal hexagonal ice, Ice Ih. With reference to the lower of the two phase diagram at the above URL, consider the box bounded by 0 and 200 MPa (30,000 psi) and -20 and 0 degrees C. Interestingly enough, 30,000 psi, the maximum pressure at which water remains a liquid, is also "at the high-end injection pressure for a HEUI diesel (30,000 psi)" http://www.dieselpage.com/art1110ds.htm (see Beene's post below) so the necessary equipment is available for injection of supercooled water into a cylinder. If the pressure on the supercooled high pressure water is released fast enough one could expect the equivalent of brittle failure since the Beta-atmosphere pressure responsible for the tensile strain energy component of ice Ih will not have time to organise the water fragments. If you think about it, the essential difference between isothermal volume change and adiabatic volume change is the value of dv/dt. If a volume is expanded very rapidly then there is no time for heat to enter or leave the space, no time for equilibrium to be reached with the external environment. At the other extreme, if a volume is expanded very slowly then, irrespective of any insulation, temperature equilibrium will be reached with the external environment. There is a rather amusing passage I came across whilst researching the Carnot cycle that illustrates the importance of the rate of heat transfer to cylinders. ================================================= The conceptual value of the Carnot cycle is that it establishes the maximum possible efficiency for an engine cycle operating between TH and TC. It is not a practical engine cycle because the heat transfer into the engine in the isothermal process is too slow to be of practical value. As Schroeder puts it "So don't bother installing a Carnot engine in your car; while it would increase your gas mileage, you would be passed on the highway by pedestrians." 8-) ================================================= Now, evidently, there is a wide range of regimes that one might adopt for the amount of pressure drop to be used in exploding the supercooled high pressure water and the amount to be used for driving pistons or turbine. The optimum conditions can only be established by experimentation, or less likely in the short term, by an adequate theoretical analysis. The trouble is, existing theory is nowhere near being able to achieve the later aim because the existing concepts of temperature, energy, spectrum of hierarchical aether pressure, just ain't up to it (IMNSHO). ;-) This is why, for instance, the three equations of state for water vapour remained undiscovered for so long. The concept of temperature was so wedded to the Kelvin straightjacket that the recognition one was really dealing with inverse environmental pressures simply didn't arise. As for the idea that there was nothing absolute about "absolute zero temperature", anyone suggesting such a thing would doubtless be branded anathema. That various terms that have been used to express the energy available in the aether Beta-atmosphere- Casimir - Zero-Point_ Energy, is really a case of Big Enders and Little Enders, to use a Lilliputian analogy. I have approached aether pressure from the big end specifically tests on concrete - and you can't get much bigger eggs than 12 inch cylinders, whereas ZPE approaches the egg from the little end. The advantage of the big end is you can get the spoon in and see what you are doing. It may also involve one dimensional scalar waves rather than two dimensional transverse waves. I imagine the waste product of a water engine would be ice crystals though whether this would lead to attenuation of global warming or not is difficult to say. 8-) I believe that if anyone takes up this experimental challenge seriously then progress will be much faster than mining the aether on a finer scale, such as cold fusion. The only trouble is, once someone demonstrates a working model, oil shares are likely to take such a hammering that a horrendous stock market instability might result. Frank Grimer =========================================================== Re: ZPE-Pumped Cryogenic Mass Increase & Explosive Antimony From: Jones Beene (view other messages by this author) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:18:03 ----------------------------------------------------------- Fred, Once again we see evidence of extremely energetic mechanical failure, which can be due to brittle failure, or to phase-shift (allotrope) failure. This is totally off-the-books of normal energy accounting because the energy derives from ZPE. "By itself, when subjected to a sharp blow, an electric spark, or when heated to 110 - 120 deg C with a evolution of 19,600 calories per gram". That's about 6 times the energy of burning H2 plus O2 to a gram of water. :-)" Note that both Antimony an Bismuth expand on solidifying." Yes. The similarity of exploding Sb with exploding ice is striking. Using ice-9 instead of normal ice should far exceed this figure, IF it can be kept in a micro-particulate form and injected with perfect timing into a cylinder at the instant of ignition of a lean gasoline (or other fossil fuel or **especially** an H2 explosion). If even 5% by volume of ice-9 can be encapsulated in LN (while bypassing the ice-2 formation stage); which then is injected into a diesel at the high-end injection pressure for a HEUI diesel (30,000 psi) http://www.dieselpage.com/art1110ds.htm ...one can theoretically raise the Carnot efficiency of the fuel (excluding the cryo-component) to about 300% effective Carnot, or fully 15 times above normal. In effect, this should give one about 400 mpg equivalent mileage for a 200 HP engine. But with that kind of efficiency - forget the gasoline and go with on-board H2 !! and be totally eco-friendly. Forget fuel cells. Forget hydrinos. Forget LENR. Lets develop the hydrogen-fueled cryo-diesel... With this kind of efficiency you can actually make your required H2 fuel additive on-board, on-the-fly. Consequently on fill-up (at home), one would take on only LN or CA (cryo-air) and water only. Both the ice-9 and the H2 initiator would be manufactured on-the-fly in the automobile. About 30% of you net horsepower would go to making the necessary H2 via electrolysys, but the real power of the engine would derive from the exploding ice-9 and the capture of the 800:1 expansion ratio of the cryo-component. IOW with 200 HP available, you would devote 65 HP to on board electrolysis and 135 HP to powering the vehicle. Air conditioning is a bonus. You can go full-blast AC with the top-down, if you so desire, or even drive the Hummer to the Sierra Club meeting with full impunity. Your only emission is cold air and water vapor. Now...did I get that right, Irving and Paul ? ... or is it still too soon for this announcement, and will you have to alert an agent, in order to send in the trickster once again? Not to worry, hardly anyone with the necessary resources listens to vortex anyway.... all sound and fury, signifying nothing.... Jones =========================================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 27 11:17:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2RJHKFv003701; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:17:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2RJHGRw003670; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:17:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:17:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20050327191705.38671.qmail web81109.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:17:05 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Gaia, ver.1.1.5 - an Easter offering To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is my 2-part offering for the occasion – an on-topic Easter offering (to the god-of-energy, one must presume, whether or not Abraham knew this feature was part of the package) not to mention, to his over-worked mistress, Gaia. The details of this next-gen reactor design have been more like an egg-walk than an egg hunt, but they are coming together, little by little. The underlying premise of the Gaia effort is this: without a major breakthrough capable of getting us off of fossil-fuel dependence, one is advised to have a viable “fallback position," no? All I can say for certain that the fallback will not be found in “hot fusion,” the biggest disappointment and money drain of all time (non-war money drain). And if other budding technologies like ZPEcapture or CF do not help, then Lovelock is absolutely correct in his assertion that nuclear fission will have to suffice as the best of all of the remaining unsatisfactory options. But this project goes way beyond Lovelock into emphasis on redesign... and is capable of stretching Uranium resources to about 50,000 years for a world of 10 billion consumers dependent on only Uranium and nothing else – it is that much more efficient compared to the standard US design… or should I say, “sub-standard design” - thanks mostly to the General Electric Corporation (the yet-to-be-caught Enron) and their PAC-paid pals in congress. As an intellectual process, it is extraordinarily complicated to attempt to find a viable next-gen design by peering a few years ahead into the realm of the “easily possible” in order to estimate what is doable without a “major” breakthrough, and what is impossible without such. But that daunting task is the nature of accurate foresight, isn’t it? An accurate vision for the next-gen reactor design could save us a decade of valuable time. The Gaia fission reactor design has been a work-in-progress, intended to present a feasible next-generation compact alternative power source, not only to the "standard" PWR, but more specifically to burning coal or methane, both of which release tons of radioactivity directly into the atmosphere. It is intended to be a small, super-safe, sub-critical, terrorism resistant, rail-mounted, full-burnup (breeder), natural U-fueled, direct-conversion (steam-less and un-pressurized) with in-situ cleanup for ongoing fuel reprocessing. Now, that's a mouthful. Everybody's favorite wish-list combined into one package... everything but "simple," that is... but complexity is the unavoidable necessity for making Lovelock's dream of a future ecologically sound power source into a reality... unless CF/ZPE comes along first. In fact, this design depends on a Fusor-based makeup neutron source, combined with a small homogeneous reactor and three-stage neutron multiplier and beam-line. But that concept is derivative from real devices and could be proved or disproved within 6 months, given funding. This will be the subject of part 2 of this post in a few days – a makeup neutron source. This is the key component for which the greatest “leap of the imagination” as to what currently possible, is required. Assuming this overall design is deemed possible with a national commitment (most likely not here in the USA but abroad, given the GE monopoly and political power) – the "possible" part will require about four to five significant improvements - not breakthroughs, at all but improvements which have been demonstrated in principal. These are not proven in combination and are from a number of overlapping fields. Given this status, then what are the major stumbling blocks? The number one problem, as mentioned, is the robust *makeup neutron* source. A super-safe subcritical design requires a robust external sources of neutrons. The goal is for an external neutron flux of at least 10^11 neutrons per second delivered to the subcritcal reactor, which contains 90% of the fuel. This neutron source will cost as much as the rest of the reactor, but it is worth every penny ! … as it is the key which makes the whole subcritical full burnup design work. This neutron source will be the subject of the next part of this posting, but first - a few more features of Gaia worth mentioning. Because it does not require the steam cycle, and depends on direct conversion - the "rail-car" size is both possible and advantageous - but for other reasons than transportation. Having it rail-mounted means that the power plant operator can perform periodic scheduled "swap-outs" to send a lower-producing unit back to a central location for more complete fuel-reprocessing. A substantial on-site and ongoing reprocessing is also built-in but with natural U, the fuel must be kept very clean. This major reprocessing at a central location will be required for non-proliferation concerns. The two cleanup regimes, are necessary to get a "complete" burnup using natural U (rather than about a 5% burnup as is currently done using enriched fuel). This can be accomplished through a swapping arrangement and in situ breeding, where a recently cleaned-up "spare" unit takes the place of a maxed-out unit. Breaking-down the design so that one large reactor is replaced by about 50 smaller ones also means that mass production techniques can be used from the start, since the design is standardized. I could envision yearly output of 5000 units per year from only a few factories (converted from shipbuilding or locomotive production), each unit of 10-20 megawatts on one standard railcar footprint - this gives a total net of 50 gigawatts year-to-year increase for a national commitment. That would get the USA (or China) to all-nuclear, SAFE and CLEAN nuclear within about 15 years from when full production is reached. With natural-U fuel in a small reactor, one would need both a continuous ongoing reprocessing and periodic major reprocessing of fuel elements (in which the fuel is a "slush" not a solid). The on-going step, which only gets rid of 75-85% of the ash, but does so almost immediately, is basically an in-situ zone-refining step with forced-density variegation by ultrasound, which is on-going during normal operation. During this ongoing reprocessing, the lower density fission by-products are moved by convection outside the higher flux core, but still at the top of the fuel tube - which is not a "full" cleaning but is adequate for its intended purpose of getting 6 months usage between major cleanups. Some retained neutron "poisons" are part of the way that the design keeps what would normally be a "breeder" from ever getting too close to criticality. The major reprocessing step adds RF enhancement and centrifugation to zone-refining and should be done in a secure central location which services many hundreds of units. Following which short stay, the cleaned unit is returned, and that cleaner unit exchanged for an older one, ad infinitum. Each unit in a power station can get one or two major cleanups per year and NEVER (in either the ongoing nor the major cleanup) is fissile fuel removed or concentrated, so proliferation is a non-issue. This way, any plant (which might have 20-50 producing units) would always have one or two units in transit but staggered, so that there is no lost output, no plant shut-down for refueling and no proliferation risk, as only the low-density ash is removed from the fuel and the bred fissile component is never removed. Full burn-up is possible, meaning that per kwh produced about 100 times less tonnage of mined-uranium will be needed, compared to the GE (substandard) design which is doubly wasteful in both enrichment and burnup. The CANDU reactor serves as histroical information resource for the Gaia design, and as an alternate source of frustration. It differs most significantly from the GE reactor technology in reliance on the heavy water moderator and unenriched fuel - but gives only partial fuel burnup. These reactors can provide their own heavy water production and electricity production based on the 31% efficiency but have unfortunately never been perfected with ongoing reprocessing nor direct conversion. By looking at the history of both designs it is easy to see how you can get to the sad state of "offical" high-level stagnation of innovation in two distinct ways. The GE monopoly is one way - the CANDU bureauracy is the other. Provide something that does work, and then offer no official incentive for something that works better, and instead offer a huge disincentive to your present suppliers in the form of massive steady profits - and... voila... you get intrenched stagnation, top to bottom - and that is where we are now in the nuclear fission industry, worldwide almost, to the great delight and amusement of OPEC. More later... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 27 12:33:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2RKXVFv031130; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:33:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2RKXOqJ031093; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:33:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:33:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050327153051.02b859a8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 15:33:09 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Easter In-Reply-To: <20050327052734.99009.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050327052734.99009.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1807156==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <9YFHND.A.tlH.TixRCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58681 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1807156==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Terry Blanton wrote: >What compels you to do this? Pack-hunting predator instinct. - Jed --=====================_1807156==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Terry Blanton wrote:

What compels you to do this?

Pack-hunting predator instinct.

- Jed
--=====================_1807156==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 27 12:38:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2RKcXFv000963; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:38:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2RKcTT8000939; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:38:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:38:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Oil Crash Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 15:41:39 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20050322222857.15958.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> <42417049.7020400@pobox.com> <005201c52fcd$8772dc60$1a41ccd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <005201c52fcd$8772dc60$1a41ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200503271541.39365.rockcast earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58682 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday 23 March 2005 12:26, Mike Carrell wrote: > Stephen wrote: > > Terry Blanton wrote: > > > This article says that the Canadian Sands won't save us because you > > > can't squeeze it out fast enough: > > > > > > http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ > > > > Fascinating. > > > > Does anyone here know what the effect of peak oil is likely to be on > > global warming? Lack of oil will ruin the economy and lead to WWIII -- > > but will it also save the polar bears? Or have CO2 levels already gone > > so high that a methane burp followed by a total meltdown is inevitable? > > Take note of the cover story of the last Scientific American. The author > uses deep ice core data to measure the cyclic methane and carbon dioxide > content of the atmosphere over may millenia. It is cyclic, the cycles > synchronous with variations in the solar illumination due to interactions > of the eccentriciey of the the Eartth's orbit and its precession of the > rotation axis -- both "cosmic" effect, beyond control of man. Following > those cycles, Earth should have entered a cooling phase some 5-8000 years > ago, headed for an ice age. That trend has been counterbalanced by the rise > of agriculure, producing mathane from rotting crops and increasing carbon > dioxide through deforestation. > > Thus we have ha a nice climate, due the presence of Man. We overdid it with > the industrial age and massive use of fossil fuel, and may now face > consequences. However, if the "peak oil" scenario is as bas as advertised, > then the use of fossil fuels will decline, and we may continue down the > cosmic cooling cycle toward another ice age. > > Thus even though there may be a near term victory for LENR and BLP to > arrest the peak in global warming, the ride can still be bumpy. > > And to think there is a comepetition as to who can build the scariest > roller coaster rides :-). > > Mike Carrell When the oil runs out, we will go nuclear. There will be some civil problems as folks for and against the nuclear option 'interact', but the nuclear option will be excersized. Yes there probably will be terrorists, but that is what National Guard troops are for. By then, the political climate of starving and cold masses huddling in the dark (while not fleeing south and becoming the new breed of John Steinbeck's 'Okies') will have profoundly changed; and the changes will be ominous for a previousely democratic society. "In tough times they send for the sons of bitches!" will be the operation phrase. If you think the 1930's were bad....wait. The Romans had laws to deal with the lawless, just like we Americans dealt with looters in the 1940's and 1950's. We called them outlaws and shot them on sight! That is what will happen to anti nuclear hooligans in the future. Stalin did not put up with economic saboteurs, and in the dark world of the near future neither will we. Come soon or come late. The only choice that we have is how destitute and cold and hungry and how willing to accept foreign domination will we be before we either build the plants ourselves or allow our conquerors to do it to us. For an energy poor country is a weak country. Every day we let the Chinese and Japanese proceed apace with their programs without strongly pursuing our own is one more day behind we get in the economy of the future. The French are will ahead of all of us on this. The Armenians know what happens when winter comes and there is no energy except nuclear available. Several years ago they almost froze until they restarted their Tchernobl type reactor and pulled themselves by their bootstraps out of trouble with no help from a world that criticized them from their comfortable armchairs of energy affluence. All the while there were no shortage of these comfortable critics telling the Armenians that they should just lay down and die before they started their 'unsafe' reactor.....the reactor that saved their lives! Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 27 12:56:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2RKu8Fv007496; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:56:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2RKu4uA007466; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:56:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:56:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050327154722.02c0fb48 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 15:55:47 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Oil Crash In-Reply-To: <200503271541.39365.rockcast earthlink.net> References: <20050322222857.15958.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> <42417049.7020400 pobox.com> <005201c52fcd$8772dc60$1a41ccd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <200503271541.39365.rockcast earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3165937==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58683 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_3165937==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Standing Bear wrote: >When the oil runs out, we will go nuclear. There will be some civil problems >as folks for and against the nuclear option 'interact', but the nuclear >option will be excersized. All else remaining as it is, this would not do us a bit of good. Oil is only used for transportation. Nuclear power cannot (at present) be used to power automobiles or aircraft. In the future it may be used to produce hydrogen, which can be used for transportation. Or we could use electric cars. However, we might as well use electricity from something cheaper than nuclear power, such as wind or even coal. In other words, when oil runs out, we may go nuclear, but if we want to spend six times less money, we will turn to wind power instead. That seems a lot more likely. Because oil is only used for transportation, it is much less important than people realize. Replace automobile engines with something better and the need for oil practically vanishes. The use of oil to generate electricity peaked in 1979 at 3,283 trillion Btu, and it has declined to 1,200 trillion Btu. See: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec8_18.pdf See also Fig. 5.14. Heat content of petroleum consumption by product by sector: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec5_34.pdf Note that the vertical scales differ. The figure on the bottom right shows the dramatic decline in petroleum consumption to generate electricity. All four sectors are shown together here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec5_28.pdf The only substantial use of oil is in industry and transportation. Some of the "Industrial" sector petroleum is used to generate electricity, in combined-heat-and-power plants (cogenerators). Most is for things like petrochemical feedstocks, which could easily be replaced if cheap wind energy becomes available (and will surely be replaced if CF becomes available). See Table 5.13b: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec5_31.pdf - Jed --=====================_3165937==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Standing Bear wrote:

When the oil runs out, we will go nuclear.  There will be some civil problems
as folks for and against the nuclear option 'interact',  but the nuclear
option will be excersized.

All else remaining as it is, this would not do us a bit of good. Oil is only used for transportation. Nuclear power cannot (at present) be used to power automobiles or aircraft. In the future it may be used to produce hydrogen, which can be used for transportation. Or we could use electric cars. However, we might as well use electricity from something cheaper than nuclear power, such as wind or even coal.

In other words, when oil runs out, we may go nuclear, but if we want to spend six times less money, we will turn to wind power instead. That seems a lot more likely.

Because oil is only used for transportation, it is much less important than people realize. Replace automobile engines with something better and the need for oil practically vanishes.

The use of oil to generate electricity peaked in 1979 at 3,283 trillion Btu, and it has declined to 1,200 trillion Btu. See:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec8_18.pdf

See also Fig. 5.14. Heat content of petroleum consumption by product by sector:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec5_34.pdf

Note that the vertical scales differ. The figure on the bottom right shows the dramatic decline in petroleum consumption to generate electricity.

All four sectors are shown together here:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec5_28.pdf

The only substantial use of oil is in industry and transportation. Some of the "Industrial" sector petroleum is used to generate electricity, in combined-heat-and-power plants (cogenerators). Most is for things like petrochemical feedstocks, which could easily be replaced if cheap wind energy becomes available (and will surely be replaced if CF becomes available). See Table 5.13b:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec5_31.pdf

- Jed
 --=====================_3165937==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 27 13:34:39 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2RLYWFv020533; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:34:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2RLYTCM020505; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:34:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:34:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=M5skbYfaY3/edAYICx4MKjRsuPy1aNTZ6YQ/qUo4ia+ftClh8+Xknka1oDQyO8sAYvdGUzg5VYS94SoiLfWpM2exNxMUvqxeqshKd/HCmOFbGgZUajjV4i9QgnypDDI2YNDEkKzdVCq5opMMzAJ0kyBwIEYvyIDlY2r6vbim2U0= ; Message-ID: <20050327213417.50345.qmail web51702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:34:17 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: [OT] Re: Easter To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58684 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That is one of the most compelling and insightful things I have ever seen you say. I would find it extemely humorous did I not fear that I am the quarry. --- Jed Rothwell wrote: > Pack-hunting predator instinct. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 27 14:23:34 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2RMNEFv003006; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:23:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2RMNA9N002982; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:23:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:23:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <12958178.1111962185245.JavaMail.root wamui08.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:23:04 -0500 (EST) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Easter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2RMN4Fv002940 Resent-Message-ID: <-FFKp.A.du.NJzRCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58685 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton writes: >> Pack-hunting predator instinct. > I would find it > extemely humorous did I not fear that I am the quarry. Lol! Seriously (okay, somewhat seriously) they do not want to hunt you, they want you to join their pack and follow their leadership and their initiative. In other words, they want to make you a subordinate member of their hierarchy. As far as I know, only predators who cooperatively hunt in packs exhibit this behavior. Solitary hunters do not care what other members of their species do. When they encounter other individuals, they simply drive them off. Pack hunters such as wolves and people have highly developed, complex patterns of interaction with emphasis on controlling member behavior. I believe that instinct accounts for the urge to proselytize religion and make others conform to your own culture. Herd animals such as deer have social hierarchy, but it is less developed, and there is little leadership or coordination. When a herd is attacked, all members flee. They seldom organize to defend the herd or shelter young animals. (Elephants do defend the herd, and elephants also have more complex social hierarchy than other herbivores.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 27 14:32:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2RMWFFv006260; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:32:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2RMWCQ2006225; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:32:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:32:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <29163665.1111962728774.JavaMail.root wamui08.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:32:08 -0500 (EST) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: NigeriaWorld article lauds cold fusoin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58686 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Prof. Sam Ejike Okoye has written an article in NigeriaWorld praising cold fusion. It includes detailed information from Ed Storms, which leads me to think the author must have contacted Storms. This article is way better than most articles published in the U.S. mass media in the last five years. See: http://nigeriaworld.com/articles/2005/mar/271.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 27 17:38:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2S1c9TK003960; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:38:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2S1bsIY003867; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:37:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:37:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002101c53336$bd86b620$26027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Wolves and Wolverines Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 19:37:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C53304.722BB540"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58687 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C53304.722BB540 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001E_01C53304.722BB540" ------=_NextPart_001_001E_01C53304.722BB540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankIntroducing the analogy of wolves to humans as a predator species = and comparing their difference to solitary hunters is a stretch. The wolf is one of natures marvels. Arctic wolves follow the migrating = caribou for food. This amazing animal eats little of their cull , = leaving most for other animals not endowed with stamina and endurance, = and also for the scavengers such as the wolverine( badger family). The wolverine emits a skunk odor that spoils the meat for other animals = except the buzzards. A wolf will not fight a wolverine, not from fear, = but because of the risk of injury which in the Arctic is tantamount to = starvation. Of the true dangerous animals on earth, the wolverine and the Cape = buffalo rank tops because their sensory perception gives them the = uncanny ability to know when they are being " stalked" and in turn began = stalking the stalker.=20 A wolf does NOT stalk a wolverine. A wolverine is a solitary hunter. = They are known for their utter ruthlessness and cruelty, their ability = to spoil and destroy without remorse. Their ability to enter a dairy = barn and kill every animal without feeding on their kill is known, but = not understood. Making an analogy between humans and wolves permits an expansion of the = analogy to include wolverines and humans. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001E_01C53304.722BB540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Introducing the analogy of wolves to = humans as a=20 predator species and comparing their difference to solitary hunters = is a=20 stretch.
The wolf is one of natures marvels. Arctic = wolves follow=20 the migrating caribou for food. This amazing animal eats little of their = cull ,=20 leaving most for other animals not endowed with stamina and endurance, = and also=20 for the scavengers such as the wolverine( badger family).
The wolverine emits a skunk odor that spoils = the meat=20 for other animals except the  buzzards. A wolf will not fight a = wolverine,=20 not from fear, but because of the risk of injury which in the = Arctic is=20 tantamount to starvation.
Of the true dangerous animals on earth, the = wolverine=20 and the Cape buffalo rank tops because their sensory = perception gives them=20 the uncanny ability to know when they are being " stalked" and in = turn=20 began stalking the stalker.
A wolf does NOT stalk a wolverine. A wolverine = is a=20 solitary hunter. They are known for their utter ruthlessness and = cruelty, their=20 ability to spoil and destroy without remorse. Their ability to enter a=20 dairy barn and kill every animal without feeding on their kill is=20 known, but not understood.
 
Making an analogy between humans and wolves = permits an=20 expansion of the analogy to include wolverines and humans.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_001E_01C53304.722BB540-- ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C53304.722BB540 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001c01c53336$bcbe8420$26027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C53304.722BB540-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 27 20:55:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2S4tHSD029265; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 20:55:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2S4t8ae029148; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 20:55:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 20:55:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Detroit Pushing Diesel Hybrids Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:57:17 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003A_01C53320.53280970" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050323171347.02ac3a28 pop.mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58688 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C53320.53280970 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If I were to hazard a guess, it's likely an emissions problem. Hyper efficient engines typically burn fuel more completely and thereby run cleaner, but that is not always true. This is a carbureted engine design so not sure what nasties are being left behind in the exhaust. -j -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 4:16 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Detroit Pushing Diesel Hybrids Robin van Spaandonk wrote: The only thing preventing this from being adopted across the automobile industry is the will to do it. And politics. And -- I suppose -- pressure from the oil industry. But if the price of gasoline goes up to $5 per gallon these impediments will vanish. - Jed ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C53320.53280970 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If I=20 were to hazard a guess, it's likely an emissions problem.  Hyper = efficient=20 engines typically burn fuel more completely and thereby run = cleaner, but=20 that is not always true.  This is a carbureted engine design so not = sure=20 what nasties are being left behind in the exhaust.
-j
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell=20 [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, = 2005=20 4:16 PM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Detroit = Pushing=20 Diesel Hybrids

Robin van Spaandonk=20 wrote:

The only thing = preventing this from=20 being adopted across the
automobile industry is the will to do=20 it.

And politics. And -- I suppose -- pressure = from the=20 oil industry. But if the price of gasoline goes up to $5 per gallon = these=20 impediments will vanish.

- Jed
------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C53320.53280970-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Mar 27 21:11:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2S5BcSD004268; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:11:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2S5BWWP004208; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:11:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:11:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: Detroit Pushing Diesel Hybrids Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:13:50 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58689 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I would be careful next time you decide to vandalize someone's car like that (yes, it's only free speech when you do it to your own car). Saw some poor chap get the crap kicked out of him for doing that very thing. Seems the ex-marine didn't take too kindly to the passivist message being foisted upon his truck. -j -----Original Message----- From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 10:51 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Detroit Pushing Diesel Hybrids no, the support the troop ribbons are all magnetic. next time you see one, peel it off to see. (or, do like i do. i printed up several 8x10 sheets of bumpersticker paper with small sections that say bring them home now. i simply put that on their car right underneath support our troops. ) On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:51:40 -0500, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > >> Entertaining idea, but a typical sticker doesn't weigh an ounce. > >> More like a gram, which would cut that million pounds down to about > >> 30,000 pounds. > > > > > > Only a gram? 10 sheets of 8 x 11.5" paper weigh 46 grams. A 3 page > > letter in an envelope weighs an ounce. I have not weighed a sticker, > > but aren't they magnetic? > > No, the ones you see on cars are more like decals -- they're just a film > of plastic, or possibly paper, with sticky stuff on one side. Probably > more than a gram, it's true :-) but not a whole lot more, I'd guess. > > The Fish Wars had the potential to be more expensive, I suppose, since > the bumper-fish (both Darwin and IXOYE fish) appear to be rather thick > plastic plaques. I kept meaning to get one of each, and let them fight > it out on the back of our car, but I waited too long and now the back of > the car's completely covered with political bumper stickers, so both > fish lost out. > > > I'll bet the biggest "energy flag cost" is the cost of all those flags > > on cars flapping in the wind. Fortunately, they have mostly frayed and > > you do not see them often anymore. > > Yeah -- I wish I could say the same thing for the gas-station flags, and > the flags in restaurants, and the flag in the barber shop, and the flags > at the copy shop, and.... I suppose they'd be useful if one > occasionally forgot what country one was in, and needed to be reminded, > but that's not a problem I find I have. > > > > > - Jed > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.2 - Release Date: 05/03/25 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 01:50:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2S9oUMm014524; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 01:50:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2S9oDsg014431; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 01:50:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 01:50:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050328094906.0068acc4 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:49:06 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58690 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Whilst researching the work of the Graneau's I came across the following. ================================================ http://users.erols.com/iri/FutureEnergyTech.html Cold Fog Discovery Many other systems exist today, in a research, development, or theoretical stage, which also convert potential energy into useful work. The first example is the "Cold Fog" invention of Dr. Peter Graneau from Northeastern University that converts chemical bond energy into kinetic energy. Intermolecular bond energy in water is an available amount of energy estimated at 2.3 kJ/g. When injected with a high voltage capacitor discharge of 39.8 Joules, normal rainwater is accelerated into a cold fog that loses about 31.2 Joules of low-grade heat and a comparable amount (29.2 Joules) in fog kinetic energy output. As reported in the Journal of Plasma Physics,[3] the output energy thus exceeds the input energy by about 100% creating a 2-to-1 overunity condition favorable for reduction to a motorized conversion system. Capacitor Input Energy: 39.8 joules ! V Fog Kinetic En. <- Cold Fog -> Low Grade Heat 29.2 Joules Accelerator 31.2 Joules ================================================ Now this is not a million miles from the type of thing that Jones and I have been suggesting. Furthermore, it is clearly over unity and unequivocally recognised to be so. In other words energy is being drawn from the environment, more specifically the combination of the inter-molecular compressive strain energy brought about by the Beta-atmosphere Compreture stress on the water molecules (between batches variation in terms of Analysis of Variance) and the balancing infra-molecular tensile strain energy (within batches variation). Now it is clear that this system is no way optimized. In particular, the low grade heat of 31.2 Joules is not some unchangeable law of the Medes and Persians, though no doubt skeptics would like to think so. The low grade heat represents the sub-optimization of the explosive process, the failure of the cold fog accelerator to prevent the Beta atmosphere compression from grabbing back some proportion of the individual water molecules. The maximum theoretical yield of Kinetic Energy to Capacitor Input energy is 60.4/39.8 = 1.52 And what is the significance of this ratio, 1.52. Not rocket science is it. Not unreasonable to suppose that within the limits of experimental error this is 3/2, i.e. the relation between volume and area which is what you might expect. I remember once discussing our power law work with my colleague, Nigel Clayton. He said that he reckoned ultimately it all came down to the relation between surface and volume, area and volume in other words. I must admit, that was a bridge too far for me at the time but I have always remembered his insight and kept a lookout for good examples. Cheers Frank Grimer ..and for those who like names that fit their occupations how about Graneau standing for granulated water. 8-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 06:12:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SEC9nK009286; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 06:12:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SEBxZt009162; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 06:11:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 06:11:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <424810B4.3040000 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:12:04 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The will of God (key points and loose ends) References: <20050326144328.82437.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050326144328.82437.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58691 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >--- revtec wrote: > > > >> Lucifer is >> >> > >Lucifer is not Satan. There is but one reference to >Lucifer in the bible. Do you know it and to what it refers? > > As the one who first refered to Lucifer here, I should admit that I didn't check the name in the relevant verses, either in Genesis or in the Testament of Moses. The post was done from memory and the entity refered to may or may not actually be named "Lucifer". >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 07:41:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SFevnK015331; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 07:40:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SFeshA015311; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 07:40:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 07:40:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050328094542.02bf88a8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:40:33 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wolves and Wolverines In-Reply-To: <002101c53336$bd86b620$26027841 xptower> References: <002101c53336$bd86b620$26027841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_5105390==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58692 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_5105390==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed RC Macaulay wrote: >Introducing the analogy of wolves to humans as a predator species and >comparing their difference to solitary hunters is a stretch. This is not an analogy; it is an observation. (And not my observation; it is from the textbooks.) Similar modes of survival give rise to similar behavior. Intelligent pack hunting predators tend to have complex hierarchies and they instinctively want to subordinate and control other members of their species. This behavior evolves independently in different species, such as people and wolves. I wouldn't know, but it would not surprise me to learn that killer whales are similar. >Their ability to enter a dairy barn and kill every animal without feeding >on their kill is known, but not understood. People do the same thing, no doubt for similar reasons. American buffalo and many other species were hunted to the brink of extinction for sport. It does not seem mysterious to me. Predators are not evolved to deal with an unnatural situation in which unlimited numbers of prey are trapped inside a barn. There is no "brake" or natural limit on the instinct to kill, because that would serve no purpose in natural circumstances. >Making an analogy between humans and wolves permits an expansion of the >analogy to include wolverines and humans. If wolverines are pack hunters there are bound to be similarities. And of course, many differences too! By the way, just because the human urge to proselytize is rooted in our predatory nature, that does not mean the subject being proselytized is irrational or incorrect. I am not passing judgment on religion here. I am merely describing why Revtec (and others) feel a deep-rooted sense that "proclaiming the deity of Christ is essential to the faith." Religion is ritualized social interaction, and persuading others to follow your lead is absolutely fundamental to primate interaction. This is not, in any sense, an analogy or a coincidental resemblance. It is no more surprising than the fact that human wooing and courtship rituals are similar to those of other animals. Both the humans and the other animals are sincerely in love, as far as anyone can tell. When a library committee assembles to pick a new set of curtains, the member's behavior is governed by their primate nature. (Omnivore primates in our case.) These instincts are not distant or muted; they are obvious and they control the behavior of the committee members as directly as they control a troop of chimpanzees or bonobos. Of course there are vast differences between different primate species. When members of a bonobo troop have an argument, they tend to smooth over their differences later by spontaneously engaging in sex, both heterosexual and homosexual, whereas a library committee or a troop of chimpanzees would probably not do this. The library committee members might shake hands or kiss one another on the cheek, but that is usually as far as they go. Also, just because people's behavior is governed by biology, that does not mean people have no free will, they cannot effectively act in their own best interests, and they cannot be domesticated. The rules imposed by biology allow a nearly infinite range of behaviors, good and bad, effective or dysfunctional. They are like the laws of physics or the rules of chess: you cannot escape them or transcend them, but working within them you can accomplish any conceivable goal. - Jed --=====================_5105390==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" RC Macaulay wrote:

Introducing the analogy of wolves to humans as a predator species and comparing their difference to solitary hunters is a stretch.

This is not an analogy; it is an observation. (And not my observation; it is from the textbooks.) Similar modes of survival give rise to similar behavior. Intelligent pack hunting predators tend to have complex hierarchies and they instinctively want to subordinate and control other members of their species. This behavior evolves independently in different species, such as people and wolves. I wouldn't know, but it would not surprise me to learn that killer whales are similar.


Their ability to enter a dairy barn and kill every animal without feeding on their kill is known, but not understood.

People do the same thing, no doubt for similar reasons. American buffalo and many other species were hunted to the brink of extinction for sport. It does not seem mysterious to me. Predators are not evolved to deal with an unnatural situation in which unlimited numbers of prey are trapped inside a barn. There is no "brake" or natural limit on the instinct to kill, because that would serve no purpose in natural circumstances.


Making an analogy between humans and wolves permits an expansion of the analogy to include wolverines and humans.

If wolverines are pack hunters there are bound to be similarities. And of course, many differences too!

By the way, just because the human urge to proselytize is rooted in our predatory nature, that does not mean the subject being proselytized is irrational or incorrect. I am not passing judgment on religion here. I am merely describing why Revtec (and others) feel a deep-rooted sense that "proclaiming the deity of Christ is essential to the faith." Religion is ritualized social interaction, and persuading others to follow your lead is absolutely fundamental to primate interaction. This is not, in any sense, an analogy or a coincidental resemblance. It is no more surprising than the fact that human wooing and courtship rituals are similar to those of other animals. Both the humans and the other animals are sincerely in love, as far as anyone can tell.

When a library committee assembles to pick a new set of curtains, the member's behavior is governed by their primate nature. (Omnivore primates in our case.) These instincts are not distant or muted; they are obvious and they control the behavior of the committee members as directly as they control a troop of chimpanzees or bonobos. Of course there are vast differences between different primate species. When members of a bonobo troop have an argument, they tend to smooth over their differences later by spontaneously engaging in sex, both heterosexual and homosexual, whereas a library committee or a troop of chimpanzees would probably not do this. The library committee members might shake hands or kiss one another on the cheek, but that is usually as far as they go.

Also, just because people's behavior is governed by biology, that does not mean people have no free will, they cannot effectively act in their own best interests, and they cannot be domesticated. The rules imposed by biology allow a nearly infinite range of behaviors, good and bad, effective or dysfunctional. They are like the laws of physics or the rules of chess: you cannot escape them or transcend them, but working within them you can accomplish any conceivable goal.

- Jed
--=====================_5105390==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 08:24:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SGO2nK020735; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:24:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SGNn8P020582; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:23:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:23:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rra4i$qqc711 mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,127,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="900078625:sNHT22585446" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: OT: Curing ourselves of the itch Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:23:39 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58693 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thomas Malloy recently wrote: > That's why it's important to learn to read Hebrew. > We know that the text has come down to us unchanged > because Bible Code works. It's not just that it's > there, but it has accurately predicted events. Some Vorts are old enough to remember the remarkable PBS series "Ascent of Man" created by the late Jacob Bronowski. I was in my early twenties when this brilliant program first aired on TV back in the early 70s. It might be useful to bring to Vort's collective attention one particular episode titled: "Knowledge or Certainty." ...Bronowski reiterated that there is no such thing as absolute knowledge - there is no such thing as perfection in our observations of the natural world. The assertion of dogma is a betrayal of the human spirit, and, moreover, leads to the inhuman belief that the end justifies the means. Nazi Germany epitomized the social disaster that can accompany this "principle of monstrous certainty." Bronowski thought that the 1930's will be viewed historically as a "crucial confrontation of culture as I have been expounding it, the ascent of man, against the throwback of the despots' belief that they have absolute certainty." Standing in the pond at Auschwitz, holding a handful of mud containing the remains of many thousands of victims of this inhumanity, [Bronowski] reminded us that "we have to cure ourselves of the itch for absolute knowledge and power. We have to close the distance between the push-button order and the human act. We have to touch people." For additional details see: http://www.wetzoollamb.net/jfpp/joan/essays/bronowski.html After pondering Bronowski's essay on "Knowledge or Certainty" it brought home to me the chilling awareness that those who believe they possess the absolute Word of God (or Allah) are in danger of playing out a role that is qualitatively not all that different from what the Nazis attempted while performing genocide against the Jews. IMHO, to believe one possesses the Absolute Word of God (or Allah) is just another way of succumbing to the deadly narcotic labeled: Absolute Knowledge. It reminds me of the famous quote attributed to Oliver Cromwell, a quote I fear will unfortunately fall on deaf ears: "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken." I also realize I'm in danger of greatly offending certain Vortexians by my personal attempt to associate fundamentally held religious beliefs to the despicable actions of the Nazis. Never the less, I stand by my observations. In my experience, even stone slowly metamorphoses over time. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 08:26:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SGQ3nK022698; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:26:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SGPvYJ022595; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:25:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:25:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <42483018.7050102 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:26:00 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wolves and Wolverines References: <002101c53336$bd86b620$26027841 xptower> <6.2.0.14.2.20050328094542.02bf88a8@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050328094542.02bf88a8 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58694 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I should know better than to pick nits with Jed's posts, since it usually turns out I'm wrong, but I'm going ahead anyway... Jed Rothwell wrote: > RC Macaulay wrote: > >> Their ability to enter a dairy barn and kill every animal without >> feeding on their kill is known, but not understood. > > > People do the same thing, no doubt for similar reasons. American > buffalo [...] were hunted to the brink of extinction for sport. Actually my understanding is that they were pushed to the brink, not for sport, but as part of a concerted effort by the U.S. government to remove the food supply needed by migratory Indian tribes who followed the buffalo. The goal was to force the Indians onto reservations. Perhaps the hunters pulling the triggers were doing it "for sport" but they were encouraged (and, I think, paid something for each buffalo killed) by the government. That wasn't exactly the proudest moment in U.S. history and it isn't emphasized in most history books. ('Scuse the non-PC language.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 08:28:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SGRxnK025036; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:27:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SGRs9b024952; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:27:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:27:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050328104529.02c36758 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:27:21 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wolves and Wolverines In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050328094542.02bf88a8 pop.mindspring.com> References: <002101c53336$bd86b620$26027841 xptower> <6.2.0.14.2.20050328094542.02bf88a8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7925171==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58695 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_7925171==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >Intelligent pack hunting predators tend to have complex hierarchies and >they instinctively want to subordinate and control other members of their >species. And as Edwin O. Wilson pointed out, they also have an urge to *be subordinated*. That is, to be dominated and led by a stronger pack member. In politics we call this "the people's hunger for leadership." Wilson believes this is the origin of religion, and I agree completely. This is particularly obvious for the Judeo-Christian deity which has all of the attributes of a dominant alpha male. It also explains why many Judeo-Christian are adamantly convinced that God is a He -- a male -- even though the concept of sexual attributes in a deity makes absolutely no sense and means nothing as far as I can tell. Being "male" means having male sexual organs, hormones and so on. As one critic put it, why does God supposedly have a penis if there is no Mrs. God? It is not surprising that primitive people came to believe this. They tend to assume that everything in nature has sex distinctions -- especially all animate objects. When isolated tribe members first see a helicopter or airplane land near their village, they often ask, is that thing male or female? They assume an airplane is like a horse or some other domesticated animal. They are not stupid; when you tell him it is "like a boat" (a man-made object) they quickly understand. Many languages such as French assign male or female genders to all nouns. Of course modern French people do not think that every item actually has a sex, but it would not surprise me to learn that ancient French people did. - Jed --=====================_7925171==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

Intelligent pack hunting predators tend to have complex hierarchies and they instinctively want to subordinate and control other members of their species.

And as Edwin O. Wilson pointed out, they also have an urge to *be subordinated*. That is, to be dominated and led by a stronger pack member. In politics we call this "the people's hunger for leadership." Wilson believes this is the origin of religion, and I agree completely. This is particularly obvious for the Judeo-Christian deity which has all of the attributes of a dominant alpha male. It also explains why many Judeo-Christian are adamantly convinced that God is a He -- a male -- even though the concept of sexual attributes in a deity makes absolutely no sense and means nothing as far as I can tell. Being "male" means having male sexual organs, hormones and so on. As one critic put it, why does God supposedly have a penis if there is no Mrs. God?

It is not surprising that primitive people came to believe this. They tend to assume that everything in nature has sex distinctions -- especially all animate objects. When isolated tribe members first see a helicopter or airplane land near their village, they often ask, is that thing male or female? They assume an airplane is like a horse or some other domesticated animal. They are not stupid; when you tell him it is "like a boat" (a man-made object) they quickly understand. Many languages such as French assign male or female genders to all nouns. Of course modern French people do not think that every item actually has a sex, but it would not surprise me to learn that ancient French people did.

- Jed
 --=====================_7925171==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 08:41:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SGfDnK000597; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:41:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SGf1h5000463; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:41:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:41:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4248339E.4090703 pobox.com> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:41:02 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: Curing ourselves of the itch References: <3rra4i$qqc711 mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> In-Reply-To: <3rra4i$qqc711 mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3uIPpC.A.KH.bODSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: orionworks charter.net wrote: >Some Vorts are old enough to remember... > > [ ... ] > ... Nazi ... > And some of us have been around long enough to remember the rather intense flames which went up after someone -- Jed? -- compared a living person with a well-known Nazi general, and even went so far as to assert that the general in question had some positive traits. IIRC the general in question was Romel. I don't recall who the person being compared with Romel was. All references to Nazis are best avoided unless your goal is to start a flame war. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 08:51:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SGpanK007474; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:51:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SGpTru007370; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:51:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:51:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050328112814.02bbce30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:48:39 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wolves and Wolverines In-Reply-To: <42483018.7050102 pobox.com> References: <002101c53336$bd86b620$26027841 xptower> <6.2.0.14.2.20050328094542.02bf88a8 pop.mindspring.com> <42483018.7050102 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_9242390==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: <5lt6d.A.CzB.OYDSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_9242390==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >Actually my understanding is that they were pushed to the brink, not for >sport, but as part of a concerted effort by the U.S. government to remove >the food supply needed by migratory Indian tribes who followed the >buffalo. The goal was to force the Indians onto reservations. That is true. There were other motives. Some buffalo were shot by commercial hunters, who sold the skins. But many were shot by people riding on passing trains in the new transcontinental railroad. They were shot just for the fun of it, and left to rot. I suspect people would have done this even if they had not been encouraged by the government. The carrier pigeon is a better example. They were driven into extinction simply because they were easy to hunt. The Galapagos turtle and some penguins and arctic seals have no fear of humans, because they have not been exposed to predators. You can walk up to one and kill it. They were nearly hunted into extinction before laws were passed preserving them, because, as I said, we have no natural "brake" on our predatory instincts. In any era before the 20th century they would have been destroyed very quickly. We can pass laws and restrain our natural behavior because we are a domesticated species. Instincts can be curbed -- but never completely quenched. You can train a domesticated dog not to kill small animals, or not to eat the game it retrieves. You can even train a cat not to kill birds or mice, but this is more difficult because cats are less domesticated than dogs (because they are not pack hunters). Any instinct can be quenched in a domesticated animal. The most extreme example is that people can actually overrule the instinct for self-preservation. You can train a person to go into battle and commit suicide in a kamikaze attack. That is astounding, and horrifying. Domestication is not entirely a good thing. - Jed --=====================_9242390==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

Actually my understanding is that they were pushed to the brink, not for sport, but as part of a concerted effort by the U.S. government to remove the food supply needed by migratory Indian tribes who followed the buffalo.  The goal was to force the Indians onto reservations.

That is true. There were other motives. Some buffalo were shot by commercial hunters, who sold the skins. But many were shot by people riding on passing trains in the new transcontinental railroad. They were shot just for the fun of it, and left to rot. I suspect people would have done this even if they had not been encouraged by the government.

The carrier pigeon is a better example. They were driven into extinction simply because they were easy to hunt.

The Galapagos turtle and some penguins and arctic seals have no fear of humans, because they have not been exposed to predators. You can walk up to one and kill it. They were nearly hunted into extinction before laws were passed preserving them, because, as I said, we have no natural "brake" on our predatory instincts. In any era before the 20th century they would have been destroyed very quickly.

We can pass laws and restrain our natural behavior because we are a domesticated species. Instincts can be curbed -- but never completely quenched. You can train a domesticated dog not to kill small animals, or not to eat the game it retrieves. You can even train a cat not to kill birds or mice, but this is more difficult because cats are less domesticated than dogs (because they are not pack hunters). Any instinct can be quenched in a domesticated animal. The most extreme example is that people can actually overrule the instinct for self-preservation. You can train a person to go into battle and commit suicide in a kamikaze attack. That is astounding, and horrifying. Domestication is not entirely a good thing.

- Jed
--=====================_9242390==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 09:27:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SHRVnK003901; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:27:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SHODfw002027; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:24:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:24:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050328115113.02bc2838 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:22:42 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: OT: Curing ourselves of the itch In-Reply-To: <4248339E.4090703 pobox.com> References: <3rra4i$qqc711 mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> <4248339E.4090703 pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_11309218==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_11309218==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >And some of us have been around long enough to remember the rather intense >flames which went up after someone -- Jed? -- compared a living person >with a well-known Nazi general, and even went so far as to assert that the >general in question had some positive traits. IIRC the general in >question was Romel. I do not recall, but I have read a good deal about Rommel and by all accounts he was a fine person, beloved of his subordinates and respected by his enemies. He was scrupulously fair and humane to POWs. Robert E. Lee also fit this description to a T. When he became the president of a university after the war, contributions flowed in from all over the country including union army veterans. Good people often fight for odious causes. Some of the finest people I have ever known, including some dear friends, were members of the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy during World War II. People are complicated. For that matter, many superb scientists and Nobel laureates have it in for cold fusion, and they have made great efforts prevent research and derail publications. If CF survives and eventually succeeds, posterity will consider these people black-hearted villains, oafs and imbeciles. I know these people and I know this is not a fair judgement. Most of them are worthy, superb scientists, smart, open-minded and fair. But they are wrong about CF. They are closed minded about this one subject. In the long view of history, all of their other accomplishments and other opinions will seem trivial compared to this one mistake. People will remember only that they were on the losing side of history. Or, if CF is forgotten, people will only "remember" that Fleischmann and Pons were oafs and imbeciles. Many of history's fall guys are remembered only as fools, when in fact they were smart and valuable people. Simon Newcomb was an excellent mathematician and astronomer, and a leader in American science, but he is remembered mainly as a persistent critic of the Wright brothers who repeatedly claimed that flight is impossible, and after 1908 that it would never become practical. (See http://www.phys-astro.sonoma.edu/BruceMedalists/Newcomb/) The Right Honorable Samuel Wilburforce, Bishop of Oxford, is remembered only as "Soapy Sam" who made a buffoon of himself debating evolution with T. H. Huxley, even though he was "a brilliant scholar . . . whose memory is perhaps unduly clouded by the 1860 episode." (Cyril Bibby). - Jed --=====================_11309218==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:

And some of us have been around long enough to remember the rather intense flames which went up after someone -- Jed? -- compared a living person with a well-known Nazi general, and even went so far as to assert that the general in question had some positive traits.  IIRC the general in question was Romel.

I do not recall, but I have read a good deal about Rommel and by all accounts he was a fine person, beloved of his subordinates and respected by his enemies. He was scrupulously fair and humane to POWs. Robert E. Lee also fit this description to a T. When he became the president of a university after the war, contributions flowed in from all over the country including union army veterans.

Good people often fight for odious causes. Some of the finest people I have ever known, including some dear friends, were members of the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy during World War II.

People are complicated. For that matter, many superb scientists and Nobel laureates have it in for cold fusion, and they have made great efforts prevent research and derail publications. If CF survives and eventually succeeds, posterity will consider these people black-hearted villains, oafs and imbeciles. I know these people and I know this is not a fair judgement. Most of them are worthy, superb scientists, smart, open-minded and fair. But they are wrong about CF. They are closed minded about this one subject. In the long view of history, all of their other accomplishments and other opinions will seem trivial compared to this one mistake. People will remember only that they were on the losing side of history.

Or, if CF is forgotten, people will only "remember" that Fleischmann and Pons were oafs and imbeciles.

Many of history's fall guys are remembered only as fools, when in fact they were smart and valuable people. Simon Newcomb was an excellent mathematician and astronomer, and a leader in American science, but he is remembered mainly as a persistent critic of the Wright brothers who repeatedly claimed that flight is impossible, and after 1908 that it would never become practical. (See http://www.phys-astro.sonoma.edu/BruceMedalists/Newcomb/) The Right Honorable Samuel Wilburforce, Bishop of Oxford, is remembered only as "Soapy Sam" who made a buffoon of himself debating evolution with T. H. Huxley, even though he was "a brilliant scholar . . . whose memory is perhaps unduly clouded by the 1860 episode." (Cyril Bibby).

- Jed
--=====================_11309218==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 09:47:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SHlKnK019886; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:47:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SHl7M1019719; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:47:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:47:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:47:58 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:49 AM 3/28/5, Grimer wrote: >Whilst researching the work of the Graneau's I >came across the following. > > >================================================ >http://users.erols.com/iri/FutureEnergyTech.html > > Cold Fog Discovery > >Many other systems exist today, in a research, >development, or theoretical stage, which also >convert potential energy into useful work. The >first example is the "Cold Fog" invention of >Dr. Peter Graneau from Northeastern University >that converts chemical bond energy into kinetic >energy. Intermolecular bond energy in water is >an available amount of energy estimated at 2.3 >kJ/g. "Bond energy" in a traditional sense is an energy well, a *lack* of potential energy, not a source of potential energy, unless the bond constituants are free of the bond or able to bond to other substances and thereby create a deeper energy well. However, Graneau and Graneau do indeed suggest there exists some mechanism whereby energy can be stored in molecular bonds, and that the source of the energy so stored is solar. >When injected with a high voltage capacitor >discharge of 39.8 Joules, normal rainwater is >accelerated into a cold fog that loses about >31.2 Joules of low-grade heat and a comparable >amount (29.2 Joules) in fog kinetic energy output. >As reported in the Journal of Plasma Physics,[3] >the output energy thus exceeds the input energy >by about 100% creating a 2-to-1 overunity >condition favorable for reduction to a motorized >conversion system. > > Capacitor Input > Energy: 39.8 joules > ! > V >Fog Kinetic En. <- Cold Fog -> Low Grade Heat > 29.2 Joules Accelerator 31.2 Joules >================================================ > >Now this is not a million miles from the type of thing >that Jones and I have been suggesting. Furthermore, it >is clearly over unity and unequivocally recognised to >be so. [snip] "Unequivocally recognised" seems a bit strong. Graneau and Graneau certainly have been subject to plenty of criticism in the usenet sci groups regarding their research. It is not exactly considered mainstream. I am not saying here that their experimental results are not right though. It should be noted however, that, AFAIK, even the Graneau's do not suggest the source of energy is "free". Their experiments showed that the same experiments repeated with the same water do not produce the same excess energy. It has to be re-energized by exposure to the sun. Unless there has been some development of which I am unaware, there is no repeatable closed box mechanism suggested to repeatably create "over unity" energy. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 10:10:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SIAhnK011899; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:10:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SIAf9h011877; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:10:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:10:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Dog power! Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:12:25 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A nice alternative to dead dinosaur fuel, live puppy power. http://hometown.aol.com/mschue5938/dogpoweredscooter.html Obviously, attaching your wifes poodle to this machine, whilst hilariously funny, would bring down the wrath of PETA and the ASPCA. OTOH A pitbull would be the perfect engine, providing an inexhaustable power source, great personal defense weapon, and pleasure to your pet, all at once. Huskies would be even better, mush mush! Imagine how much more road respect you'd get if your bicycle could bite holes in an SUV's tires. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 10:32:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SIW4ZQ026804; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:32:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SIVs5U026721; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:31:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:31:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: ...water into wine... Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:33:36 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace, you write: >However, Graneau and Graneau do >indeed suggest there exists some mechanism whereby energy can be stored in >molecular bonds, and that the source of the energy so stored is solar. Calling Fred Sparber, come in Fred Sparber, here's the first experiment that seems to show the effect of solar Sparberinos. Perhaps someone with a little free time ( Frank... ) can look up the reference and describe the actual experiment. I've had _plenty_ of experience with this technology, and have substantial improved the art as described by Graneau in his book "Ampere Newman electrodynamics of metals". For example, I can build circuits that dump all the impulse energy into the water arc without causing a shock wave. Conversely, I can also build circuits that take a small energy impulse and generate hugh shock waves. I'm a little skeptical of the results described, but I'd love to hear more about them. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 10:54:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SIsGZQ009758; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:54:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SIs4Zt009647; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:54:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:54:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001901c533c7$2fc86d60$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <3rra4i$qqc711 mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: Curing ourselves of the itch Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:51:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 11:23 AM Subject: OT: Curing ourselves of the itch > I also realize I'm in danger of greatly offending certain Vortexians by my personal attempt to associate fundamentally held religious beliefs to the despicable actions of the Nazis. > > Never the less, I stand by my observations. > You are not held at gun point by me to accept anything I say, as a Nazi would do. I never initiate a religious subject here although I have been prompted by the What's New articles. I have a responsibility to God and my fellow man to say what I say. I have at this point fulfilled that responsibility in this forum. If we are all sleeping in a building that has caught fire and I wake up first, should I run out in silence or wake you also? Even if the fire is later thought by you to be of no consequence, was I wrong to wake you? Jeff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 10:57:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SIuoZQ011392; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:56:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SIujWo011305; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:56:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:56:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050328134737.02c04fe0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:55:28 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wolves and Wolverines In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050328094542.02bf88a8 pop.mindspring.com> References: <002101c53336$bd86b620$26027841 xptower> <6.2.0.14.2.20050328094542.02bf88a8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_16853890==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_16853890==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >By the way, just because the human urge to proselytize is rooted in our >predatory nature, that does not mean the subject being proselytized is >irrational or incorrect. I am not passing judgment on religion here. I am >merely describing why Revtec (and others) feel a deep-rooted sense that >"proclaiming the deity of Christ is essential to the faith." Let me make it clear, I do not mean this is the ONLY reason people promote Christianity. There are many other reasons such as a desire for social justice. The instinct I described is one of many reasons people feel compelled to promote Christianity. For that matter it is one of the reasons I feel driven to promote cold fusion, and it explains why members of the library curtain selection committee get all worked up over stripes versus solid colors. - Jed --=====================_16853890==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

By the way, just because the human urge to proselytize is rooted in our predatory nature, that does not mean the subject being proselytized is irrational or incorrect. I am not passing judgment on religion here. I am merely describing why Revtec (and others) feel a deep-rooted sense that "proclaiming the deity of Christ is essential to the faith."

Let me make it clear, I do not mean this is the ONLY reason people promote Christianity. There are many other reasons such as a desire for social justice. The instinct I described is one of many reasons people feel compelled to promote Christianity. For that matter it is one of the reasons I feel driven to promote cold fusion, and it explains why members of the library curtain selection committee get all worked up over stripes versus solid colors.

- Jed
--=====================_16853890==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 11:38:41 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SJcUSR008870; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:38:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SJcE3X008680; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:38:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:38:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050328135748.02c04ac0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:08:52 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Dog power! In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_17637703==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_17637703==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Keith Nagel wrote: >http://hometown.aol.com/mschue5938/dogpoweredscooter.html That's great! >Obviously, attaching your wifes poodle to this machine, whilst >hilariously funny, would bring down the wrath of PETA and the ASPCA. I used to know a big strong standard poodle named Calamity who would have been great for this. >OTOH A pitbull would be the perfect engine, providing an inexhaustable power >source, great personal defense weapon, and pleasure to your >pet, all at once. Huskies would be even better, mush mush! I used to imagine dogsled racing was cruel to the Huskies, until I saw a documentary about it. The dogs love it! They can't get enough of it. I should have realized they like it, since I have a lot of experience throwing balls for Labrador retrievers. A Lab will plunge into a pond in the dead of winter, grab the ball, come charging back to you and *plead* with you to throw it again. - Jed --=====================_17637703==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Keith Nagel wrote:

http://hometown.aol.com/mschue5938/dogpoweredscooter.html

That's great!


Obviously, attaching your wifes poodle to this machine, whilst
hilariously funny, would bring down the wrath of PETA and the ASPCA.

I used to know a big strong standard poodle named Calamity who would have been great for this.


OTOH A pitbull would be the perfect engine, providing an inexhaustable power
source, great personal defense weapon, and pleasure to your
pet, all at once. Huskies would be even better, mush mush!

I used to imagine dogsled racing was cruel to the Huskies, until I saw a documentary about it. The dogs love it! They can't get enough of it. I should have realized they like it, since I have a lot of experience throwing balls for Labrador retrievers. A Lab will plunge into a pond in the dead of winter, grab the ball, come charging back to you and *plead* with you to throw it again.

- Jed
--=====================_17637703==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 12:33:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SKXQSR026908; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:33:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SKXJAV026828; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:33:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:33:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=iXB5qB3nXJi7ypmso0ChZyoGS4/XW/C1QXz6WuKMPA7BER49mz9i7b42gN1ijakXySeqei8wjm5OvRZ6i3CFNRjT4ZMNjMG6hivvgMI625Lb/eO086K0+hQbtdVWRObtgi8mtCfp+JV4Yn8dO0Z6N3i0cKdZsEH50jhCohytMp0= ; Message-ID: <20050328203302.74080.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:33:02 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Mizuno's Explosion . . . To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-428470955-1112041982=:73275" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-428470955-1112041982=:73275 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii . . . made The Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,1444046,00.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page --0-428470955-1112041982=:73275 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
 . . . made The Guardian:
 
 
 

Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page --0-428470955-1112041982=:73275-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 12:56:35 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SKuKSR014170; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:56:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SKuG1e014117; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:56:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:56:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=amnVReCZ+fUJonSUSV1LaiDjY4FAAEDe3MuMPkZ7wq0PSbJP5lKOTrPi+PwdouEeovy6nFf8Zy3hm6/q/h7vq8mTAmteY2WRKOK+JhR/ttAUC2G1Y/s4So/xDeIBBiznOaVatqTxYSaPfW0/vcJ5leN5twYTPKZpqvWY0+Yyp2I= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:49:46 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Curing ourselves of the itch In-Reply-To: <001901c533c7$2fc86d60$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <3rra4i$qqc711 mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> <001901c533c7$2fc86d60$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2SKu2SR013862 Resent-Message-ID: <98m25B.A.gcD.w9GSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: jed, however, fundamentalist christians as a whole ARE trying to limit free speech. book burnings, demands to ban certain works, all that jazz. and your analogy is flawed. its closer to you waking up, finding others fighting the fire with a bucket brigade, and running around screaming FIRE FIRE FIRE SAVE YOURSELVES! we already know we can run away and be saved. wed rather do something else. thanks. On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:51:41 -0500, revtec wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Cc: > Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 11:23 AM > Subject: OT: Curing ourselves of the itch > > > I also realize I'm in danger of greatly offending certain Vortexians by my > personal attempt to associate fundamentally held religious beliefs to the > despicable actions of the Nazis. > > > > Never the less, I stand by my observations. > > > You are not held at gun point by me to accept anything I say, as a Nazi > would do. I never initiate a religious subject here although I have been > prompted by the What's New articles. I have a responsibility to God and my > fellow man to say what I say. I have at this point fulfilled that > responsibility in this forum. > > If we are all sleeping in a building that has caught fire and I wake up > first, should I run out in silence or wake you also? Even if the fire is > later thought by you to be of no consequence, was I wrong to wake you? > > Jeff > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 13:16:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SLGEgR030652; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:16:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SLGCvY030629; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:16:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:16:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Dog power! Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:17:56 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050328135748.02c04ac0 pop.mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This two dog unit looks to me the most practical and road ready, http://hometown.aol.com/mschue5938/images/dogsctrdblfrnt.jpg Imagine roaring down the street with a pair of charging pitbulls by your side! Cars and peds alike would steer far clear of you. The dogs provide a unique sentient drive mechanism. For example, when you exit the store you just whistle and your vehicle comes bounding up to you all happy and ready to go. They take voice command and will automatically steer clear of intruding objects. That they may _chase_ other objects could be a problem, cats beware! Bets of all, NO ONE WILL EVER STEAL YOUR BIKE AGAIN. EVER! Exhaust, while an unpleasant side effect of any engine, would make for a tolerable fertilizer. Perhaps roads for these vehicles would be lined with tomatoe plants... A pair of those big poodles would work; I suppose if you like to clown it would look fantastic. >I used to imagine dogsled racing was cruel to the Huskies, > until I saw a documentary about it. The dogs love it! I had a husky as a child, and I can tell you that they do love snow and running instinctively. He would pull me around the drifts for hours on my sled, then lie in a big snow bank and sleep. It seems odd until you remember that primates will pay a great deal of money to go to a mountain and ski. Hard work, so why do they love it so? K. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell mindspring.com] Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 2:09 PM To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Dog power! Keith Nagel wrote: http://hometown.aol.com/mschue5938/dogpoweredscooter.html That's great! Obviously, attaching your wifes poodle to this machine, whilst hilariously funny, would bring down the wrath of PETA and the ASPCA. I used to know a big strong standard poodle named Calamity who would have been great for this. OTOH A pitbull would be the perfect engine, providing an inexhaustable power source, great personal defense weapon, and pleasure to your pet, all at once. Huskies would be even better, mush mush! I used to imagine dogsled racing was cruel to the Huskies, until I saw a documentary about it. The dogs love it! They can't get enough of it. I should have realized they like it, since I have a lot of experience throwing balls for Labrador retrievers. A Lab will plunge into a pond in the dead of winter, grab the ball, come charging back to you and *plead* with you to throw it again. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 14:28:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SMSoWp013301; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:28:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SMSgbq013235; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:28:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:28:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=VmDGvOtx7FRKzrbbudLLtilSrZbcU2XyyJmTM09b98jzOICjl7vnVPtoIS6VUDIx01xSPDqP2ZJtmFSSvWdDvHbXPAjWVyoy96H079xyrrcBFDzqeVp8V/Vym4F8mJg3QVN2zsAAaG7p2Pkbm5IyoAKJMEDVWM/bWPFGbmyLSe4= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:28:34 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Incredibles In-Reply-To: <12958178.1111962185245.JavaMail.root wamui08.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <12958178.1111962185245.JavaMail.root wamui08.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thought id mention this. family easter dinner, the kids were watching the incredibles. teh main villain is an inventor, is showing off his inventions by using them on the hero, and declares that they are powered by zero point energy. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 14:29:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2SMT4Wp013400; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:29:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2SMT2Na013371; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:29:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:29:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=HOlsOrNHpfUbhqf6hV1cvF8WVbYEYzkXNRyHibGapbx/k9kFicsZZG1aB7TG0eMAwQPGjkJFVVVH/kPmpTDvr8raJxL6pnWh3wYp+TxipwbSJgRuc3aQmahmXMDc4SmWXeA90nfOiGATG8poAuvjMQ8Msk69/lBqgKp5l95bQxU= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:26:58 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Easter In-Reply-To: <12958178.1111962185245.JavaMail.root wamui08.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <12958178.1111962185245.JavaMail.root wamui08.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2SMSwWp013326 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thats what frightens me the most. resistance is futile, you will be assimilated. im christian, but the fundies frighten the living hell out of me. On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:23:04 -0500 (EST), Jed Rothwell wrote: > Terry Blanton writes: > > >> Pack-hunting predator instinct. > > > I would find it > > extemely humorous did I not fear that I am the quarry. > > Lol! > > Seriously (okay, somewhat seriously) they do not want to hunt you, they want you to join their pack and follow their leadership and their initiative. In other words, they want to make you a subordinate member of their hierarchy. As far as I know, only predators who cooperatively hunt in packs exhibit this behavior. Solitary hunters do not care what other members of their species do. When they encounter other individuals, they simply drive them off. Pack hunters such as wolves and people have highly developed, complex patterns of interaction with emphasis on controlling member behavior. I believe that instinct accounts for the urge to proselytize religion and make others conform to your own culture. Herd animals such as deer have social hierarchy, but it is less developed, and there is little leadership or coordination. When a herd is attacked, all members flee. They seldom organize to defend the herd or shelter young animals. (Elephants do defend the herd, and elephants also! > have more complex social hierarchy than other herbivores.) > > - Jed > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 16:54:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2T0sP6F030130; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:54:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2T0sJ6O030096; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:54:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:54:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ltA8ypKAKB3Juz/b9By8lCZcYv3sJWM6yLrUzigUdvwYVnl+CNRMoFhRNn0gCGN0b+B83glc1CjEqvTu0owRxtvGqcAZQ1apXyGsO89HsRtrIq9K5ocPt+F3dA0EpJzfcBehreRfvp+BTH9Po1fZXrZcRcJyh2wsz9vmypUdnl4= ; Message-ID: <20050329005406.44991.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:54:06 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Mizuno's Explosion . . . To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Terry Blanton wrote: > . . . made The Guardian: > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,1444046,00.html > > I'm surprised noone has commented on this. It's not at all bad, as British publications go (only slightly better than their cuisine). Come on, I know every one has their "Parksie" filters on, and He *is* mentioned a bit, but weren't we: "equally excited about rumours of a breakthrough at a Las Vegas company called Innovative Energy Solutions." ? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 17:11:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2T1Bl6F004827; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:11:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2T1BbJ7004758; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:11:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:11:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=PUVjaa/Fx1+UCkrRC6Br1kuPJv32j+G3R5qCQj0zBkiHDp0P0bH3nCI1qC8Glcg4xs4E1QzGDKwUoDeAHBuHVr/uHc+oCX+sq99pGNjXaLUs97ScQC8Rpc6F67jVPutapPHHgiYv5CLaPsIm8uusDREkhJ8gTuIWiBzuCJE/DPw= ; Message-ID: <20050329011129.98669.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:11:29 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: [OT] DVD Easter Eggs To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <-z8MB.A.TKB.ItKSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.dvdreview.com/html/hidden_features.shtml __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 17:24:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2T1OY6F011034; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:24:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2T1OWxO011005; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:24:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:24:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,129,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="127610083:sNHT13245112" From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Cc: Subject: Any updates on Newman's "demo?" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:24:15 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Monday, March 28 has come and gone. Joseph Newman was scheduled to have demonstrated his "energy machine" at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C. around 1:00 PM. I realize Mr. Newman has a colorful history within Vortex-L. I gather he possesses an unpleasant reputation for which I gather is not unwarranted. Sounds like it's that pesky People Skills thing again. Setting that aside for the moment, does anyone know if a demonstration had been performed today and what the reaction may have been? http://www.josephnewman.com/ Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 17:35:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2T1Zg6F016002; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:35:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2T1Zeps015984; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:35:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:35:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002c01c533ff$9891b490$8d027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Easter Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:35:30 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01C533CD.4D22DD90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <3yFRv.A.t5D.rDLSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C533CD.4D22DD90 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0029_01C533CD.4D22DD90" ------=_NextPart_001_0029_01C533CD.4D22DD90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankTerry Blanton wrote..=20 What compels you to do this ? Best explained by reading verses 3 and 4. 1Jn 4: 1-4. As I stated, the Vortex group remains a viable site that enriches the = mind and provokes thought.... It is also revealing. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0029_01C533CD.4D22DD90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Terry Blanton wrote..

What compels you to do this ?

Best explained by reading verses 3 and 4.

1Jn 4: 1-4.

As I stated, the Vortex group remains a viable site that enriches the = mind=20 and provokes thought.... It is also revealing.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0029_01C533CD.4D22DD90-- ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C533CD.4D22DD90 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002701c533ff$97af6ae0$8d027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C533CD.4D22DD90-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 18:37:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2T2bh6F013806; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:37:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2T2bdu5013770; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:37:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:37:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c53408$3f7c4a60$8d027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Wolves and Wolverines Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:37:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C533D5.F4600030"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.5 required=4.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <1W7O5D.A.EXD.z9LSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C533D5.F4600030 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C533D5.F46186D0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C533D5.F46186D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankStephen A. Lawrence wrote.. I should know better than to pick nits = with Jed's posts.. The analogy between wolves , wolverines and humans sorta got lost in = Jed's introduction of bison to the comparison. The wolverine is a solitary predator, vicious, smells like a skunk and = is utterly ruthless and useless in the animal world excepting as a = scavenger.=20 The bison was replaced by beef cattle. The ranch over near me has a few = head of bison. No rancher in business to survive wastes time raising = bison. can't be herded, onery critters, too tough to keep fenced and low = market demand because the meat isn't that good. Granted that.. very few = Indian nations were bison hunters. Had more been so, the herds would = have been depleted. As it was, way back when, the total number of bison = reached perhaps 200 million plus in the north American continent.=20 Maybe Jed would like to meet 200 million on his stretch of the = interstate highway system but since sometimes, something has to give.. = it was the bison in favor of the auto. Lo! the poor Indian seems to have survived. What with casino gambling in = concert with the new legit mafia grandchillen, they seem to have made it = into the new century complete with cradle to grave welfare while crying = all the way to the bank. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C533D5.F46186D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Stephen A. Lawrence wrote.. I should know better than to pick nits = with=20 Jed's posts..
 
The analogy between wolves ,  wolverines and humans = sorta=20 got lost in Jed's introduction of bison to the comparison.
 
The wolverine is a solitary predator, vicious, smells like a skunk = and is=20 utterly ruthless and useless in the animal world excepting as a = scavenger.=20
 
The bison was replaced by beef cattle. The ranch over near me has a = few=20 head of bison. No rancher in business to survive wastes time raising = bison.=20 can't be herded, onery critters, too tough to keep fenced and low market = demand=20 because the meat isn't that good. Granted that.. very few =  Indian=20 nations were bison hunters. Had more been so, the herds would have been=20 depleted. As it was, way back when, the total number of bison reached = perhaps=20 200 million plus in the north American continent.
Maybe Jed would like to meet 200 million on his stretch of the = interstate=20 highway system but since sometimes, something has to give.. it was the = bison in=20 favor of the auto.
 
Lo! the poor Indian seems to have survived. What with casino = gambling in=20 concert with the new legit mafia grandchillen, they seem to have made it = into=20 the new century complete with cradle to grave welfare while crying all = the way=20 to the bank.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C533D5.F46186D0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C533D5.F4600030 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000701c53408$3ef455b0$8d027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C533D5.F4600030-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 23:10:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2T7Adtx020330; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:10:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2T7AYIr020296; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:10:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:10:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 01:11:07 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: RE: OT: The will of God Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58715 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 2:45 AM 3/26/5, thomas malloy wrote: and Horace Heffner replied; > > >>You believe what you want to believe. > >I have suggested two propositions and a conclusion. These things are not a >matter of my faith or what I believe. What matters is the general doctrine >of Christians, Jews, and Moslems concerning Abraham and his one god. Your argument seems to be that because the Islamists call Alliah the G-d of Abraham, that makes him so. This makes no sense to me, however having exhausted my arguments to the contrary, all I can conclude is it that you believe what you want to believe. > >>I've pointed out that the two >>entities have; different names, different legal systems, and the >>train of human thought that they produced bore different fruit. If >>you still believe that they are the same entity, you have blinded >>yourself to what is obvious. > > >Once again you have failed to address either the propositions or the logic. >Instead you again frame the problem as a matter of personal faith and >attack the conclusion on the basis of what men have done in the interim. Once again I have said all that I have to say in the above paragraph. If those arguments don't convince you, nothing will. > >[snip] >>There is only one way in which peace can be achieved when one system, >>or group of people, is sworn to destroy the other. One of us has to >>destroy the other. "When civilized men are unwilling to do what needs >>to be done in order to maintain their existence, they will be >>replaced by uncivilized men, who are willing to do what needs to be >>done." I believe that this quote is from Victor Davis Hanson, >>frequent guest on the Hugh Hewitt Show. > > >Genocide can not be the only means to peace. If anything in this world is >utterly evil, genocide has to be at the top of the list. > This war is not my idea, but there are three factors which made it inevitable, the Soviet invasion of Afganistan, the oil wealth, and the Islamists, particularly the Wahabi's reaction to the reborn state of Israel. Two of them are clearly acts of G-d, the first one can be argued is the result of the Satanists having created their workers paradise, AKA communism. The coming genocide would not be my preferred way of working this out, but I lack the chutzpah to criticize HaShem (G-d), in print anyway. I never loose sight of what's about happen to the last being who though himself better qualified to run the universe. Iraq would be peaceful and prosperous today, were it not for the actions of the Islamist fanatics who are out to destroy anyone who stands in the way of their version of the Workers Paradise. I totally refuse to be accountable for their actions, or for the genocide that their actions will necessitate > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Mar 28 23:28:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2T7SLtx031974; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:28:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2T7SHVf031945; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:28:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:28:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:29:32 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Any updates on Newman's "demo?" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 7:24 PM 3/28/5, Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: >Joseph Newman was scheduled to have demonstrated his "energy machine" at the >National Press Club in Washington, D.C. around 1:00 PM. [snip] >Setting that aside for the moment, does anyone know if a demonstration had >been performed today and what the reaction may have been? Maybe we'll see a report from Robert L. Park, who's office is in that building. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 00:07:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2T87Ltx017196; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:07:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2T87Eba017153; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:07:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:07:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=aHWtaUJNuPSiy7lZ59K/W9YbmLvsfW+sHWbqOtiu4BaYnR0X8AgkEot1v0ZLeyafrM3jeEvvUWqjCBtUrnqFr4HIvgoyJGyRsm0wGewMF2bdrwQcmEsFtPhYImq5fRxM5hXURrPPs4/ibEvIGfkJ5VIiMkxneCHO3LWIRaxSyhU= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 01:07:12 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Easter In-Reply-To: <002c01c533ff$9891b490$8d027841 xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <002c01c533ff$9891b490$8d027841 xptower> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2T87Ctx017130 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: jn? not familiar with that book... On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:35:30 -0600, RC Macaulay wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote.. > > What compels you to do this ? > > Best explained by reading verses 3 and 4. > > 1Jn 4: 1-4. > > As I stated, the Vortex group remains a viable site that enriches the mind > and provokes thought.... It is also revealing. > > Richard > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 00:09:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2T89Ltx018465; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:09:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2T89Hn3018429; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:09:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:09:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=pEUpjg1EEXKZDj2NC6pqU3VcSI9xNmZ8K74OHx/dzYG2MmuLyqNcZivON/cWWPYRHPAoKnbQ3aRGAVQjxAHAd5RPwzX7+XCvcZZ+JEO8IBYsWXIUg/PjfWd65sLR1JnEpiFB88owaJIU/PGzECu/VK5kTVuLo611dsEs54EFYR8= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 01:09:08 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wolves and Wolverines In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050328134737.02c04fe0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <002101c53336$bd86b620$26027841 xptower> <6.2.0.14.2.20050328094542.02bf88a8 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050328134737.02c04fe0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2T897tx018321 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ermm, he was talking about teh divinity of christ, not christianity itself. i personal agree with most of the gospels. im not sure if christ was the son of gawd or not. i dont care. i will follow his teachings anyways. i think the point was that the diety is a sort of, my god has a bigger penis than your god, kinda contest. On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:55:28 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wrote: > > By the way, just because the human urge to proselytize is rooted in our > predatory nature, that does not mean the subject being proselytized is > irrational or incorrect. I am not passing judgment on religion here. I am > merely describing why Revtec (and others) feel a deep-rooted sense that > "proclaiming the deity of Christ is essential to the faith." > Let me make it clear, I do not mean this is the ONLY reason people promote > Christianity. There are many other reasons such as a desire for social > justice. The instinct I described is one of many reasons people feel > compelled to promote Christianity. For that matter it is one of the reasons > I feel driven to promote cold fusion, and it explains why members of the > library curtain selection committee get all worked up over stripes versus > solid colors. > > - Jed > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 00:12:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2T8Bktx019710; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:11:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2T8BftQ019671; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:11:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:11:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=HMK8+vjUAkGg+RNeqL+cqpyqgGUnM6i35JeqKF2p2M4fM/HFtUlOEiLglZy1wKRvPNuZJ3i+6xLVMPwzNqY1jG6PTiI7wc4Wrh3r7zDTNgofyOvg0fjJOtjf4b8QgC4feLOBNJW+TYGUfDv6Y8q0PRnc54ahF+qvH3OYMBsDLYE= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 01:11:38 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OT: The will of God In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2T8Bctx019644 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BWAHAHAHAHHAHHAAA wow. yeah, all the islamic countries are third world. thats why, before we invaded, iraq had a higher standard of living and qol than we, and complete equality for men and women, including equal pay laws that we still refuse to pass here. your ignorance is showing. On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:14:54 -0600, thomas malloy wrote: > Keith Nagel and Horace Heffner responded; > > >J. Swift writes: > >Our histories of six thousand moons make no mention of any other > > My first reaction was to say that I fail to see the connection > between this part of Gulliver's Travels and the the question at hand. > On further reflection You have the misguided idea that the difference > between Judeo Christianity and Islam is the same difference between a > Lutheran and a Baptist. This is just not the case, all you have to do > is look at the fruits of the two systems; Islamic nations have no > rights for women and are all third world economies. We have rights > for women and are all first and second world economies. > > > > >At 1:32 PM 3/10/5, thomas malloy wrote: > > > >>The scenario which is being played out was prophecized 4000 years > > >ago, ergo it is the will of G-d. The Islamists believe that Allah has > > > > > >Jews and Christians worship the god of Abraham. Islamists worship the god > >of Abraham. If it is the same Abraham it is the same god. > > The idea that Yehovah, and Allah are the same entity is pure > nonsense. Ditto for the idea that Shariah is a substitute for Torah. > I thought I'd made the case adequately, but apparently I didn't. So > I'll try again. If some hacker hijacks my email account and starts > out by declaring that I have just decided to change my name to Elmer > Fudd, and that I have just converted to Islam, you can be sure that > It's not me posting it. > > Yehovah declares himself to be King of the Universe. A king can't > resend his laws. See the story of Daniel and the Lion's Den. The King > in the story was obligated to follow his own laws, even though it > meant throwing his friend and trusted advisor to the lions. > > > > >The difference lies in the words and thus opinions of men, not in the two > >gods. Peace between these world factions must finally be won in the hearts > >of humanity, not in the interpretation of scripture. > > More nonsense, why are there two world views? Two gods perhaps? > That's the story, starting in Genesis 3 and ending in the last > chapter of the Revelation. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 01:42:03 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2T9fvtx019047; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 01:41:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2T9fjDr018902; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 01:41:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 01:41:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050329094038.006a0258 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:40:38 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:47 am 28-03-05 -0900, Horace wrote: > "Bond energy" in a traditional sense is an energy well, a *lack* of > potential energy, not a source of potential energy, unless the bond > constituents are free of the bond or able to bond to other substances and > thereby create a deeper energy well. However, Graneau and Graneau do > indeed suggest there exists some mechanism whereby energy can be stored in > molecular bonds, and that the source of the energy so stored is solar. The trouble is that "traditional sense" doesn't understand what's going on. I suppose one can't blame chemists for not being engineers. One can't expect them to recognise that there are two types of energy, positive and negative. Having first been introduced to energy in the form kinetic energy it's quite uderstandable they don't realise v^2 has a positive and a negative root. I mean to say, what possible sense could be made of a negative velocity, eh! (sense can be made of it but it will take a very perceptive Vortexian to twig). It is because chemists aren't engineers that they never discovered the trinity of power laws for water vapour, the pressure density law and the vesica pisces law. These laws were not discovered by accident. They were not discovered by playing around with data and a calculating machine. These power laws were discovered from logical extension of the original research on the stress-strain properties of concrete presented at an international symposium at Southampton University - curiously enough, the same university that gave rise to the research on Cold Fusion. You of all people, Horace, should be well aware of that since I took the trouble to mail the relevant research publications to your northern eerie. You were not the first person to try and dismiss our striking and obviously significant power relationships as mere curve fitting exercises and I don't suppose you will be the last. All credit to Professor Chaplin, chemist though he may be, for not only recognising the importance of the power laws but updating them with more modern data and presenting them in the clearest way possible on his excellent web-site. If chemists thought like engineers - more specifically engineers who are familiar with the design and manufacture of prestressed concrete, then they would analyse their nano structures in terms strain energy, i.e. epsilon squared. Even though chemists might not be heaven's gift to mathematics, it would no doubt occur to those less mathematically challenged that eps^2 has two roots, -eps and +eps, and they would realise that "bond energy" can be positive (tensile say) or negative (compressive, say). It would occur to them that they are dealing with a structure which is the analogue of clay, with the infra-molecular bonds in a state of compressive strain (clay mineral particles) and the inter-molecular bonds (pore water) in a state of balancing tensile strain. Now I worked for six years in the Soil Mechanics Division of the Road Research Laboratory and am completely familiar with the pioneering research into soil moisture pF by work of Croney, Coleman and Black much of which remains unpublished, not untypical of government research. As clay samples are dried out on suction plates and brought to a high state of pore water tension and balancing state of clay particle compression a state is reached (analogous to the failure of concrete in a "soft" testing machine) where the strain energy is suddenly released and the specimen explodes in a puff of clay mineral smoke. This is a macro scale model of what is happening to Graneau's water. You talk of a "deeper energy well". Clearly, you haven't understood the concept of negative energy I have been plugging in these posts or you would have seen that the corollary of an energy well is an energy hill. Let me explain with a simple example which everybody can follow. Consider a tank of water with the following items in suspension half way up the column. A thin spherical glass christmas decoration strung to a lead weight. Cut the string and the lead weight falls to the bottom of the tank - your "deeper energy well". But what happens to the glass ball. That doesn't fall to the bottom of the tank, does it! It rises to the top of the hill, the surface of the water in the tank. The Graneaus are spot on in their contention that energy is stored in inter-molecular bonds. >> Furthermore, it is clearly over unity >> and unequivocally recognised to >> be so. >"Unequivocally recognised" seems a bit strong. I'll grant you that one, Horace. 8-) I was being deliberately provocative in order to provoke a discursive exchange of ideas. > Graneau and Graneau certainly have been > subject to plenty of criticism in the > usenet sci.groups regarding their research. That was only to be expected if they were saying something new and important. And what they have to say is of the utmost importance. > It is not exactly considered mainstream. You make it sound reprehensible not to be "considered mainstream". I thought the whole philosophy of this group hinged around the recognition that new ideas and discoveries, like Cold Fusion for instance, were invariably not "considered mainstream". Do I detect a weakening of your faith in this core belief. ;-) > I am not saying here that their experimental results > are not right though. I'm glad to hear it. I'm quite confident they're right. > It should be noted however, that, AFAIK, even the > Graneau's do not suggest the source of energy is "free". It depends what you mean by free. Is wind energy free? In the strict sense, no. If you surround the country with wind turbines then when the Queen goes to London Town and the Royal Standard is raised above Buckingham Palace, it wont flutter in the breeze quite as vigourously as it would if there were no turbines. So the energy ain't ABSOLUTELY free, but for all practical purposes there is a inexhaustible source for replenishment of the inter-molecular bond energy - Beta-atmosphere/Casimir/ZPE > Their experiments showed that the same experiments > repeated with the same water do not produce the same > excess energy. It has to be re-energized by exposure > to the sun. Hang on a minute, if it can be simply re-energised then there is effectively a "closed box mechanism" isn't there. If you want to re-energise coal you have to wait centuries while the carbon dioxide is absorbed by plants which are then buried over geological aeons to be recycled many millions of years later. Anyway, I don't believe re-energising has anything to do with the sun or any other more exotic explanation. Sunshine may accelerate the process by I feel confident that it will still take place in complete darkness, albeit possibly at a slower rate. Experiment would soon provide a definitive answer, one way or the other. > Unless there has been some development of which I am > unaware, there is no repeatable closed box mechanism > suggested to repeatably create "over unity" energy. As Professor Joad was wont to remark - it all depends what you mean by "closed box mechanism" and "over unity". If we can get more KE out of water than the electrical energy we put it, that's good enough for me, folks. In other words, if we can recognise that water is a fuel just like petrol - only a bit different - then as far as I am concerned we have achieved "...water into wine..." 8-) Cheers Frank Grimer Interestingly enough there are reports of mystics living on water alone over long periods of time (Catherine Emmerich for example). Perhaps the human body has already solved the problem of using water as a fuel. Now there's a thought. http://my.homewithgod.com/israel/acemmerich/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 01:59:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2T9wttx026485; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 01:58:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2T9wrth026458; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 01:58:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 01:58:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 03:59:27 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: (OT) will of god Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-DCC-CPI-Metrics: Clear 1162; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Johnson wrote; >I also realize I'm in danger of greatly offending certain Vortexians >by my personal >attempt to associate fundamentally held religious >beliefs to the despicable actions of >the Nazis. I have pointed out frequently that the Nazis were quite religious, their religion was paganism. Jed Rothwell posted It also explains why many Judeo-Christian are adamantly convinced that God is a He -- a male -- even though the concept of sexual attributes in a deity makes absolutely no sense and means nothing as far as I can tell. The word which describes G-d elohem is male. Being "male" means having male sexual organs, hormones and so on. As one critic put it, why does God supposedly have a penis if there is no Mrs. God? The word for the Holy Spirit, Ruach HaKodesh is feminine. The Leaking Pen posted; >wow. yeah, all the islamic countries are third world. thats why, >before we invaded, iraq had a higher standard of living and qol than >we, and complete equality for men and women, including equal pay laws >that we still refuse to pass here. your ignorance is showing. You must have attended college, Leaking. Only someone with a college education could believe such nonsense. If you were part of the elite life was good. OTOH, is you were part of the majority, you starved, or worse. I recommend a vacation in one or more of these Islamic paradises to help you wise up. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 04:25:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TCPQtx027889; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 04:25:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TCLuWk026115; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 04:21:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 04:21:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=kpi5SKRU8+PtruVXQQ/tEVyVPMR0Pav6P0UqJHN41DDH/bkS7e4JOfIquMkl8LEh; Message-ID: <410-220053229112159320 earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.42.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: ...water into wine... Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 05:21:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940eb8f83c882851eec05a7ca08b11ae0ac350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.58 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi Keith, you wrote > > > Hi Horace, you write: > > However, Graneau and Graneau do > > indeed suggest there exists some mechanism whereby energy can be stored in > > molecular bonds, and that the source of the energy so stored is solar. > > Calling Fred Sparber, come in Fred Sparber, here's the > first experiment that seems to show the effect of > solar Sparberinos. > I'm here, Keith. Older and Wiser on my 72nd Birthday. Happy Birthday to Horace Heffner, Vince Cockeram, and Martin Fleischmann, too. I think the proper term for the molecular (solar stored) energy effect is called Fluorescence, Keith. :-) Although it might require the presence of CO2 as a "catalyst": CO2 + H2O <---> H2CO3 (in atmospheric water clusters or liquid water in a pan) exposed to the solar spectrum. Photography has been using this "metastable" energy storage effect for almost two centuries. Frederick ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Hi Keith, you wrote
 
>
> > Hi Horace, you write:
> > However, Graneau and Graneau do
> > indeed suggest there exists some mechanism whereby energy can be stored in
> >  molecular bonds, and that the source of the energy so stored is solar.
>
> Calling Fred Sparber, come in Fred Sparber, here's the
> first experiment that seems to show the effect of
> solar Sparberinos. 
>
I'm here, Keith.  Older and Wiser on my 72nd Birthday. Happy Birthday to Horace Heffner, Vince Cockeram,
and Martin Fleischmann, too.
 
I think the proper term for the molecular (solar stored) energy effect is called Fluorescence, Keith. :-)
 
Although it might require the presence of CO2 as a "catalyst":
 
CO2 + H2O  <---> H2CO3   (in atmospheric water clusters or liquid water in a pan) exposed
to  the solar spectrum.
Photography has been using this "metastable" energy storage effect for almost two centuries.
 
Frederick

 

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 06:35:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TEZRtx019169; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 06:35:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TEZI9T019067; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 06:35:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 06:35:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=cFejpUhzjxhav484YSqEXJ2B5pPIKHn3Njc5bwVtLeV8rm4+VwyzxiauHl7AMAEJKfpJjqxiQI6+m+r8+B4p+NQAW2LWVxd0mdMLu5l5fBu9D2r9wDDp8MNTnZwi6ANm97q2kDj32zsCpECTQGzgn2F4ZLM2XUAEjM1Xtz+kkow= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:35:06 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: (OT) will of god In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2TEZAtx018958 Resent-Message-ID: <430BjC.A.upE.keWSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: errm, nazis were atheists. lemarkian evolutionists philisophically, if memory serves. yes, im in college. i didnt say they were all great. and actually, ive been to iraq, about 6 years ago, as part of a high school exchange program. the farm slums are a higher quality than here. as for christian countries being better, hows about we take a look at predominantly catholic south america. very third world. ohh, but that probably wont cut it for you. i forgot, brown people dont count in your little world. On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 03:59:27 -0600, thomas malloy wrote: > Steven Johnson wrote; > > >I also realize I'm in danger of greatly offending certain Vortexians > >by my personal >attempt to associate fundamentally held religious > >beliefs to the despicable actions of >the Nazis. > > I have pointed out frequently that the Nazis were quite religious, > their religion was paganism. > > Jed Rothwell posted > > It also explains why many Judeo-Christian are adamantly convinced > that God is a He -- a male -- even though the concept of sexual > attributes in a deity makes absolutely no sense and means nothing as > far as I can tell. > > The word which describes G-d elohem is male. > > Being "male" means having male sexual organs, hormones and so on. As > one critic put it, why does God supposedly have a penis if there is > no Mrs. God? > > The word for the Holy Spirit, Ruach HaKodesh is feminine. > > The Leaking Pen posted; > > >wow. yeah, all the islamic countries are third world. thats why, > >before we invaded, iraq had a higher standard of living and qol than > >we, and complete equality for men and women, including equal pay laws > >that we still refuse to pass here. your ignorance is showing. > > You must have attended college, Leaking. Only someone with a college > education could believe such nonsense. If you were part of the elite > life was good. OTOH, is you were part of the majority, you starved, > or worse. I recommend a vacation in one or more of these Islamic > paradises to help you wise up. > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 07:44:51 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TFiatx029083; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:44:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TFiT3V029015; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:44:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:44:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 06:45:32 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:40 AM 3/29/5, Grimer wrote: >At 08:47 am 28-03-05 -0900, Horace wrote: > >> "Bond energy" in a traditional sense is an energy well, a *lack* of >> potential energy, not a source of potential energy, unless the bond >> constituents are free of the bond or able to bond to other substances and >> thereby create a deeper energy well. However, Graneau and Graneau do >> indeed suggest there exists some mechanism whereby energy can be stored in >> molecular bonds, and that the source of the energy so stored is solar. > > >The trouble is that "traditional sense" doesn't understand >what's going on. I suppose one can't blame chemists for not >being engineers. One can't expect them to recognise that >there are two types of energy, positive and negative. >Having first been introduced to energy in the form kinetic >energy it's quite uderstandable they don't realise v^2 has a >positive and a negative root. I mean to say, what possible >sense could be made of a negative velocity, eh! (sense can >be made of it but it will take a very perceptive Vortexian >to twig). > >It is because chemists aren't engineers that they never >discovered the trinity of power laws for water vapour, >the pressure density law and the vesica pisces law. > >These laws were not discovered by accident. They were not >discovered by playing around with data and a calculating >machine. These power laws were discovered from logical >extension of the original research on the stress-strain >properties of concrete presented at an international >symposium at Southampton University - curiously enough, >the same university that gave rise to the research on >Cold Fusion. > >You of all people, Horace, should be well aware of that >since I took the trouble to mail the relevant research >publications to your northern eerie. The stuff you mailed me did not appear to provide any more information than what you already posted. Most importantly, it did not provide the numerical data to which you say a power-law fit is implied. >You were not the >first person to try and dismiss our striking and >obviously significant power relationships as mere curve >fitting exercises and I don't suppose you will be the >last. All credit to Professor Chaplin, chemist though >he may be, for not only recognising the importance of >the power laws but updating them with more modern data >and presenting them in the clearest way possible on his >excellent web-site. Unfortunately Chaplin does not provide the numerical data either. > >If chemists thought like engineers - more specifically >engineers who are familiar with the design and >manufacture of prestressed concrete, then they would >analyse their nano structures in terms strain energy, >i.e. epsilon squared. Even though chemists might not >be heaven's gift to mathematics, it would no doubt >occur to those less mathematically challenged that >eps^2 has two roots, -eps and +eps, and they would >realise that "bond energy" can be positive (tensile >say) or negative (compressive, say). > >It would occur to them that they are dealing with a >structure which is the analogue of clay, with the >infra-molecular bonds in a state of compressive strain >(clay mineral particles) and the inter-molecular bonds >(pore water) in a state of balancing tensile strain. > >Now I worked for six years in the Soil Mechanics >Division of the Road Research Laboratory and am >completely familiar with the pioneering research into >soil moisture pF by work of Croney, Coleman and Black >much of which remains unpublished, not untypical of >government research. > >As clay samples are dried out on suction plates and >brought to a high state of pore water tension and >balancing state of clay particle compression a state >is reached (analogous to the failure of concrete in >a "soft" testing machine) where the strain energy is >suddenly released and the specimen explodes in a puff >of clay mineral smoke. This is a macro scale model of >what is happening to Graneau's water. > >You talk of a "deeper energy well". Clearly, you >haven't understood the concept of negative energy >I have been plugging in these posts or you would >have seen that the corollary of an energy well is >an energy hill. > >Let me explain with a simple example which everybody >can follow. > >Consider a tank of water with the following items in >suspension half way up the column. A thin spherical >glass christmas decoration strung to a lead weight. >Cut the string and the lead weight falls to the bottom >of the tank - your "deeper energy well". But what >happens to the glass ball. That doesn't fall to the >bottom of the tank, does it! It rises to the top of >the hill, the surface of the water in the tank. Where is the free energy cycle in this? How is this analogous? The analogy falls down in that here it takes energy to form the bond and energy is released when the bond is broken. > >The Graneaus are spot on in their contention that >energy is stored in inter-molecular bonds. But, the Graneaus do not contend that energy is stored in all chemical bonds, not even in all H2O bonds. Energy is only stored in *selected* H2O bonds after exposure to sunlight. > > >>> Furthermore, it is clearly over unity >>> and unequivocally recognised to >>> be so. > > >>"Unequivocally recognised" seems a bit strong. > > >I'll grant you that one, Horace. 8-) But that was my principle point! 8^) Every thing else was merely an attempt to clarify what I was trying to say or to make clear what I was not saying. >I was being deliberately provocative in order >to provoke a discursive exchange of ideas. > > >> Graneau and Graneau certainly have been >> subject to plenty of criticism in the >> usenet sci.groups regarding their research. > > >That was only to be expected if they were saying something >new and important. And what they have to say is of the >utmost importance. > > >> It is not exactly considered mainstream. > > >You make it sound reprehensible not to be "considered >mainstream". I thought the whole philosophy of this group >hinged around the recognition that new ideas and discoveries, >like Cold Fusion for instance, were invariably not >"considered mainstream". Do I detect a weakening of your >faith in this core belief. ;-) I merely pointed out that (a) the work of the authors cited is not "unequivocally recognised" in general as showing a source of free energy, and (b) the authors themselves do not even suggest this. The authors believe the source of energy is sunlight. If so, it is just another form of solar energy, and one that is difficult to tap practically. > > >> I am not saying here that their experimental results >> are not right though. > > >I'm glad to hear it. I'm quite confident they're right. > > >> It should be noted however, that, AFAIK, even the >> Graneau's do not suggest the source of energy is "free". > > >It depends what you mean by free. I mean the authors have suggested it is merely solar energy. Once the excess energy was obtained, it was not obtained again until the water was exposed to sunlight. >Is wind energy >free? In the strict sense, no. If you surround >the country with wind turbines then when the Queen >goes to London Town and the Royal Standard is >raised above Buckingham Palace, it wont flutter >in the breeze quite as vigourously as it would >if there were no turbines. > >So the energy ain't ABSOLUTELY free, but for all >practical purposes there is a inexhaustible source >for replenishment of the inter-molecular bond >energy - Beta-atmosphere/Casimir/ZPE The Graneaus' work does not support this contention. > > >> Their experiments showed that the same experiments >> repeated with the same water do not produce the same >> excess energy. It has to be re-energized by exposure >> to the sun. > >Hang on a minute, if it can be simply re-energised then >there is effectively a "closed box mechanism" isn't there. No, because the re-energizing requires an external source of energy: sunlight. > >If you want to re-energise coal you have to wait centuries >while the carbon dioxide is absorbed by plants which are >then buried over geological aeons to be recycled many >millions of years later. > >Anyway, I don't believe re-energising has anything to do >with the sun or any other more exotic explanation. Citing Graneau doesn't make this case though. >Sunshine may accelerate the process by I feel confident >that it will still take place in complete darkness, albeit >possibly at a slower rate. Experiment would soon provide >a definitive answer, one way or the other. > > >> Unless there has been some development of which I am >> unaware, there is no repeatable closed box mechanism >> suggested to repeatably create "over unity" energy. > > >As Professor Joad was wont to remark - it all depends >what you mean by "closed box mechanism" and "over unity". > >If we can get more KE out of water than the electrical >energy we put it, that's good enough for me, folks. Since using the Graneau approach there is no repeatable closed cycle, the COP is small, and the input is in the form of expensive electrical energy, there are some serious hurdles remaining to jump to obtain a practical device. > >In other words, if we can recognise that water is a >fuel just like petrol - only a bit different - then >as far as I am concerned we have achieved >"...water into wine..." 8-) Unfortuately, it is not only recognition or belief that is required. A practical device is required. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 07:47:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TFkmtx030401; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:46:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TFkhbk030359; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:46:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:46:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329103913.02ba0ae0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:41:43 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mizuno's Explosion . . . In-Reply-To: <20050329005406.44991.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050329005406.44991.qmail web51708.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_4189312==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58725 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_4189312==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Terry Blanton wrote: >http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,1444046,00.html >I'm surprised noone has commented on this. It's not >at all bad, as British publications go (only slightly >better than their cuisine). I uploaded this link, but I did not mention the part about the Mizuno explosion. Frankly, I find that emphasis slightly embarrassing and distracting, because I think the explosion had nothing remotely to do with CF. British cuisine was supposedly better before WWII. Six years of depending on imported rations wrecked it. Chris Tinsley and Soo Seddon told me that Indian, Chinese and other foreign restaurants are so popular in the U.K. because "anything is better than our food." - Jed --=====================_4189312==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Terry Blanton wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,1444046,00.html

I'm surprised noone has commented on this.  It's not
at all bad, as British publications go (only slightly
better than their cuisine).

I uploaded this link, but I did not mention the part about the Mizuno explosion. Frankly, I find that emphasis slightly embarrassing and distracting, because I think the explosion had nothing remotely to do with CF.

British cuisine was supposedly better before WWII. Six years of depending on imported rations wrecked it. Chris Tinsley and Soo Seddon told me that Indian, Chinese and other foreign restaurants are so popular in the U.K. because "anything is better than our food."

- Jed
 --=====================_4189312==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 07:54:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TFs1tx001670; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:54:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TFruqu001614; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:53:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:53:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 06:55:07 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: <8IffID.A.DZ.SoXSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:21 AM 3/29/5, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Older and Wiser on my 72nd Birthday. Happy Birthday to Horace Heffner, >Vince Cockeram, >and Martin Fleischmann, too. Happy Birthday to you too Fred! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 09:03:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TH3Ftx005102; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:03:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TH35U9004929; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:03:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:03:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:03:01 +0800 From: FHLew Subject: Re: ...water into wine... In-reply-to: To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <42498A45.4050402 tm.net.my> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Virus-Scanned: by Spam Firewall Outbound at tm.net.my References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greeting to all members At 08:47 am 28-03-05 -0900, Horace wrote: < However, Graneau and Graneau do indeed suggest there exists some mechanism whereby energy can be stored in molecular bonds, and that the source of the energy so stored is solar.> Man is dependant on plants for stored up energy in the form of food. Food is herbal at some stage of its production in Mother Nature 's alchemical laboratory. Cow's meat and milk are formed from the grass and fodder the cow fed on. Plant food is manufactured by the vibratory resonance of two solar rays,the Red and the Blue,.with the help of chloroplasts during photosynthesis in green leaves. . Hence, energy food derived from plants is the photosynthetic equivalence of a musical chord. Botanically or physiologically, life is a melody. Light is liquified gas. http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2497 With regards Lew Horace Heffner wrote: >At 12:40 AM 3/29/5, Grimer wrote: > > >>At 08:47 am 28-03-05 -0900, Horace wrote: >> >> >> >>>"Bond energy" in a traditional sense is an energy well, a *lack* of >>>potential energy, not a source of potential energy, unless the bond >>>constituents are free of the bond or able to bond to other substances and >>>thereby create a deeper energy well. However, Graneau and Graneau do >>>indeed suggest there exists some mechanism whereby energy can be stored in >>>molecular bonds, and that the source of the energy so stored is solar. >>> >>> >>The trouble is that "traditional sense" doesn't understand >>what's going on. I suppose one can't blame chemists for not >>being engineers. One can't expect them to recognise that >>there are two types of energy, positive and negative. >>Having first been introduced to energy in the form kinetic >>energy it's quite uderstandable they don't realise v^2 has a >>positive and a negative root. I mean to say, what possible >>sense could be made of a negative velocity, eh! (sense can >>be made of it but it will take a very perceptive Vortexian >>to twig). >> >>It is because chemists aren't engineers that they never >>discovered the trinity of power laws for water vapour, >>the pressure density law and the vesica pisces law. >> >>These laws were not discovered by accident. They were not >>discovered by playing around with data and a calculating >>machine. These power laws were discovered from logical >>extension of the original research on the stress-strain >>properties of concrete presented at an international >>symposium at Southampton University - curiously enough, >>the same university that gave rise to the research on >>Cold Fusion. >> >>You of all people, Horace, should be well aware of that >>since I took the trouble to mail the relevant research >>publications to your northern eerie. >> >> > > >The stuff you mailed me did not appear to provide any more information than >what you already posted. Most importantly, it did not provide the >numerical data to which you say a power-law fit is implied. > > > > >>You were not the >>first person to try and dismiss our striking and >>obviously significant power relationships as mere curve >>fitting exercises and I don't suppose you will be the >>last. All credit to Professor Chaplin, chemist though >>he may be, for not only recognising the importance of >>the power laws but updating them with more modern data >>and presenting them in the clearest way possible on his >>excellent web-site. >> >> > > >Unfortunately Chaplin does not provide the numerical data either. > > > > >>If chemists thought like engineers - more specifically >>engineers who are familiar with the design and >>manufacture of prestressed concrete, then they would >>analyse their nano structures in terms strain energy, >>i.e. epsilon squared. Even though chemists might not >>be heaven's gift to mathematics, it would no doubt >>occur to those less mathematically challenged that >>eps^2 has two roots, -eps and +eps, and they would >>realise that "bond energy" can be positive (tensile >>say) or negative (compressive, say). >> >>It would occur to them that they are dealing with a >>structure which is the analogue of clay, with the >>infra-molecular bonds in a state of compressive strain >>(clay mineral particles) and the inter-molecular bonds >>(pore water) in a state of balancing tensile strain. >> >>Now I worked for six years in the Soil Mechanics >>Division of the Road Research Laboratory and am >>completely familiar with the pioneering research into >>soil moisture pF by work of Croney, Coleman and Black >>much of which remains unpublished, not untypical of >>government research. >> >>As clay samples are dried out on suction plates and >>brought to a high state of pore water tension and >>balancing state of clay particle compression a state >>is reached (analogous to the failure of concrete in >>a "soft" testing machine) where the strain energy is >>suddenly released and the specimen explodes in a puff >>of clay mineral smoke. This is a macro scale model of >>what is happening to Graneau's water. >> >>You talk of a "deeper energy well". Clearly, you >>haven't understood the concept of negative energy >>I have been plugging in these posts or you would >>have seen that the corollary of an energy well is >>an energy hill. >> >>Let me explain with a simple example which everybody >>can follow. >> >>Consider a tank of water with the following items in >>suspension half way up the column. A thin spherical >>glass christmas decoration strung to a lead weight. >>Cut the string and the lead weight falls to the bottom >>of the tank - your "deeper energy well". But what >>happens to the glass ball. That doesn't fall to the >>bottom of the tank, does it! It rises to the top of >>the hill, the surface of the water in the tank. >> >> > > >Where is the free energy cycle in this? How is this analogous? The >analogy falls down in that here it takes energy to form the bond and energy >is released when the bond is broken. > > > > >>The Graneaus are spot on in their contention that >>energy is stored in inter-molecular bonds. >> >> > > >But, the Graneaus do not contend that energy is stored in all chemical >bonds, not even in all H2O bonds. Energy is only stored in *selected* H2O >bonds after exposure to sunlight. > > > > >> >> >>>>Furthermore, it is clearly over unity >>>>and unequivocally recognised to >>>>be so. >>>> >>>> >> >> >>>"Unequivocally recognised" seems a bit strong. >>> >>> >>I'll grant you that one, Horace. 8-) >> >> > > >But that was my principle point! 8^) Every thing else was merely an >attempt to clarify what I was trying to say or to make clear what I was not >saying. > > > > >>I was being deliberately provocative in order >>to provoke a discursive exchange of ideas. >> >> >> >> >>>Graneau and Graneau certainly have been >>>subject to plenty of criticism in the >>>usenet sci.groups regarding their research. >>> >>> >>That was only to be expected if they were saying something >>new and important. And what they have to say is of the >>utmost importance. >> >> >> >> >>>It is not exactly considered mainstream. >>> >>> >>You make it sound reprehensible not to be "considered >>mainstream". I thought the whole philosophy of this group >>hinged around the recognition that new ideas and discoveries, >>like Cold Fusion for instance, were invariably not >>"considered mainstream". Do I detect a weakening of your >>faith in this core belief. ;-) >> >> > > >I merely pointed out that (a) the work of the authors cited is not >"unequivocally recognised" in general as showing a source of free energy, >and (b) the authors themselves do not even suggest this. The authors >believe the source of energy is sunlight. If so, it is just another form >of solar energy, and one that is difficult to tap practically. > > > > > >> >> >>>I am not saying here that their experimental results >>>are not right though. >>> >>> >>I'm glad to hear it. I'm quite confident they're right. >> >> >> >> >>>It should be noted however, that, AFAIK, even the >>>Graneau's do not suggest the source of energy is "free". >>> >>> >>It depends what you mean by free. >> >> > > >I mean the authors have suggested it is merely solar energy. Once the >excess energy was obtained, it was not obtained again until the water was >exposed to sunlight. > > > > >>Is wind energy >>free? In the strict sense, no. If you surround >>the country with wind turbines then when the Queen >>goes to London Town and the Royal Standard is >>raised above Buckingham Palace, it wont flutter >>in the breeze quite as vigourously as it would >>if there were no turbines. >> >>So the energy ain't ABSOLUTELY free, but for all >>practical purposes there is a inexhaustible source >>for replenishment of the inter-molecular bond >>energy - Beta-atmosphere/Casimir/ZPE >> >> > > >The Graneaus' work does not support this contention. > > > > >> >> >>>Their experiments showed that the same experiments >>>repeated with the same water do not produce the same >>>excess energy. It has to be re-energized by exposure >>>to the sun. >>> >>> >>Hang on a minute, if it can be simply re-energised then >>there is effectively a "closed box mechanism" isn't there. >> >> > > >No, because the re-energizing requires an external source of energy: sunlight. > > > > >>If you want to re-energise coal you have to wait centuries >>while the carbon dioxide is absorbed by plants which are >>then buried over geological aeons to be recycled many >>millions of years later. >> >>Anyway, I don't believe re-energising has anything to do >>with the sun or any other more exotic explanation. >> >> > > >Citing Graneau doesn't make this case though. > > > > >>Sunshine may accelerate the process by I feel confident >>that it will still take place in complete darkness, albeit >>possibly at a slower rate. Experiment would soon provide >>a definitive answer, one way or the other. >> >> >> >> >>>Unless there has been some development of which I am >>>unaware, there is no repeatable closed box mechanism >>>suggested to repeatably create "over unity" energy. >>> >>> >>As Professor Joad was wont to remark - it all depends >>what you mean by "closed box mechanism" and "over unity". >> >>If we can get more KE out of water than the electrical >>energy we put it, that's good enough for me, folks. >> >> > > >Since using the Graneau approach there is no repeatable closed cycle, the >COP is small, and the input is in the form of expensive electrical energy, >there are some serious hurdles remaining to jump to obtain a practical >device. > > > > >>In other words, if we can recognise that water is a >>fuel just like petrol - only a bit different - then >>as far as I am concerned we have achieved >>"...water into wine..." 8-) >> >> > > >Unfortuately, it is not only recognition or belief that is required. A >practical device is required. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 09:26:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2THQDtx018222; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:26:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2THQ8nC018192; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:26:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:26:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:34:20 -0700 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: vortex-list To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: New battery technology Message-ID: <18722078.1112092460 localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <8Zd_aC.A.HcE.v-YSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Press Release: New battery offers unsurpassed recharge performance and high energy density TOKYO -- Toshiba Corporation today announced a breakthrough in lithium-ion batteries that makes long recharge times a thing of the past. The company's new battery can recharge 80% of a battery's energy capacity in only one minute, approximately 60 times faster than the typical lithium-ion batteries in wide use today, and combines this fast recharge time with performance-boosting improvements in energy density. The new battery fuses Toshiba's latest advances in nano-material technology for the electric devices sector with cumulative know-how in manufacturing lithium-ion battery cells. A breakthrough technology applied to the negative electrode uses new nano-particles to prevent organic liquid electrolytes from reducing during battery recharging. The nano-particles quickly absorb and store vast amount of lithium ions, without causing any deterioration in the electrode. The excellent recharging characteristics of new battery are not its only performance advantages. The battery has a long life cycle, losing only 1% of capacity after 1,000 cycles of discharging and recharging, and can operate at very low temperatures. At minus 40 degrees centigrade, the battery can discharge 80% of its capacity, against 100% in an ambient temperature of 25 degree centigrade). Toshiba will bring the new rechargeable battery to commercial products in 2006. Initial applications will be in the automotive and industrial sectors, where the slim, small-sized battery will deliver large amounts of energy while requiring only a minute to recharge. For example, the battery's advantages in size, weight and safety highly suit it for a role as an alternative power source for hybrid electric vehicles. Toshiba expects that the high energy density and excellent recharge performance of the new battery will assure its successful application as a new energy solution in many areas of society. Major Specifications of New Battery Excellent Recharge Performance The thin battery recharges to 80% of full capacity in only a minute. Total recharge takes only a few more minutes. High Energy Density Small and light, the new battery offers a high level of storage efficiency. The prototype battery is only 3.8mm thick, 62mm high and 35mm deep and has a capacity of 600mAh. Long Life Cycle A prototype of new battery (a laminated lithium ion battery with 600mAh capacity) was discharged and fully recharged 1,000 times at a temperature of 25 degrees centigrade and lost only 1% of capacity during the test. Temperature The new battery operates well in extremes of temperature. It discharges 80% of its capacity at minus 40 degrees centigrade, against 100% at an ambient temperature of 25 degrees centigrade, and loses only 5% of capacity at temperatures as high as 45 degrees centigrade after 1,000 cycles. These characteristics assure the wide applicability of the battery as a power source for products as diverse as hybrid vehicles and mobile phones. Eco-friendly Battery The new battery can quickly store energy produced by locomotives and automobiles. This speedy and highly effective recharge characteristic of the battery will support CO2 reduction, as the battery can save and re-use energy that was simply wasted before. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 09:30:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2THTktx020505; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:29:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2THTgGC020469; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:29:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:29:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329122842.02bed6a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:29:35 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: New battery technology In-Reply-To: <18722078.1112092460 localhost> References: <18722078.1112092460 localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_10387546==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_10387546==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Now THAT'S an important breakthrough. Something like this quick recharge battery could revolutionize transportation, and greatly reduce the need for oil. - Jed --=====================_10387546==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Now THAT'S an important breakthrough. Something like this quick recharge battery could revolutionize transportation, and greatly reduce the need for oil.

- Jed
 --=====================_10387546==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 10:13:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TIDStx008453; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:13:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TIDMkR008411; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:13:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:13:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:14:25 -0900 To: vortex-list From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: New battery technology Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:34 AM 3/29/5, R. Wormus wrote: >Press Release: > >New battery offers unsurpassed recharge performance and high energy density >TOKYO -- Toshiba Corporation today announced a breakthrough in lithium-ion >batteries that makes long recharge times a thing of the past. The company's >new battery can recharge 80% of a battery's energy capacity in only one >minute, approximately 60 times faster than the typical lithium-ion >batteries in wide use today, and combines this fast recharge time with >performance-boosting improvements in energy density. This is a significant development provided the price is right. It means vehicles can be charged in a manner similar to filling up on gas, and that home charging is also feasible. It doesn't solve the energy source problem, but it could greatly improve city air quality and vehicle efficiency. Too bad there are no more EV's being maufactured into which to drop the new batteries. No worries. Hybrids will benefit as well. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 10:25:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TIPStx017156; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:25:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TIPPLx017092; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:25:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:25:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=eEgHHMrrsAvhj69Ax09PB5vc/MAZBMM4RYoKn9ySPA8vJRm7Dfo9sw18Yr8nNJoGMzQTy9TFM3rkpMi1EtQwusBUadchwO4rKkCPwTkRxVFn5PtnIzb/1GO4xK+Iw0tRfgA4FpuqN7wjXMbklc1dbBINiqna2Rne3OxxXHZywzI= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:25:20 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New battery technology In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2TIPKtx017013 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: wow. its a battery capacitor! definately increase the effectiveness of solar vehicles. On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:14:25 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 10:34 AM 3/29/5, R. Wormus wrote: > >Press Release: > > > >New battery offers unsurpassed recharge performance and high energy density > >TOKYO -- Toshiba Corporation today announced a breakthrough in lithium-ion > >batteries that makes long recharge times a thing of the past. The company's > >new battery can recharge 80% of a battery's energy capacity in only one > >minute, approximately 60 times faster than the typical lithium-ion > >batteries in wide use today, and combines this fast recharge time with > >performance-boosting improvements in energy density. > > This is a significant development provided the price is right. It means > vehicles can be charged in a manner similar to filling up on gas, and that > home charging is also feasible. It doesn't solve the energy source > problem, but it could greatly improve city air quality and vehicle > efficiency. Too bad there are no more EV's being maufactured into which to > drop the new batteries. No worries. Hybrids will benefit as well. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 10:42:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TIfxtx029914; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:41:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TIf6AV029279; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:41:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:41:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:39:52 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: New battery technology In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_14613843==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_14613843==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Horace Heffner wrote: >This is a significant development provided the price is right. It means >vehicles can be charged in a manner similar to filling up on gas, and that >home charging is also feasible. Home charging of electric vehicles is already feasible. I cannot imagine an electric car design that would make it difficult or inconvenient to recharge at home. At most you would need some sort of external transformer. We had a discussion electric power "filling stations" this some months ago. When I suggested that rapid recharge batteries would allow something like a filling station, Mike Carrell pointed out that this would require very large capacity electric power mains to the gas station. I suppose that if the rapid recharge batteries are reasonably cheap, a gas station could be equipped with a bank of the batteries to smooth out demand. They would only have a problem if a solid stream of customers came, without a break, and there was a car charging at every outlet, every minute, for several hours. That almost never happens with ordinary gas stations, except during emergencies such as an evacuation or when the power goes out nearly everywhere and only one gas station is left open. Gas stations run out of fuel during these rare events, so an overwhelmed electric charging station would probably not be much worse than a gas station. During an evacuation, electric cars could always be charged at emergency charging stations or at people's houses and offices. You can set up a temporary charging station much more easily than you can established a temporary gas station. The biggest problem with charging stations would be lack of customers. I think most people would find it more convenient to recharge at home overnight, rather than interrupt their commute. If these batteries are reasonably light, they might allow electric vehicles with a 200 mile (300 km) range. That would be enough for nearly all travel and commuting applications. There also schemes to use high-capacity capacitors for urban buses. Every bus stop would be equipped with power mains to recharge the bus while the passengers get on and off. This seems impractical to me. >It doesn't solve the energy source problem . . . I think it would solve the energy source problem, at least in the US. The US has plenty of fuel suitable for electric power generation, including coal, uranium and wind. Also, electric cars are far more efficient than gasoline powered model, so if all cars and trucks were replaced with electric powered models, and all electric generators were brought up to close to state-of-the-art efficiency (40%) overall demand for energy would drop by ~13 quads out 101 total. Overall demand for oil would drop by ~70%. See: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/diagram1.html - Jed --=====================_14613843==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Horace Heffner wrote:

This is a significant development provided the price is right.  It means
vehicles can be charged in a manner similar to filling up on gas, and that
home charging is also feasible.

Home charging of electric vehicles is already feasible. I cannot imagine an electric car design that would make it difficult or inconvenient to recharge at home. At most you would need some sort of external transformer.

We had a discussion electric power "filling stations" this some months ago. When I suggested that rapid recharge batteries would allow something like a filling station, Mike Carrell pointed out that this would require very large capacity electric power mains to the gas station. I suppose that if the rapid recharge batteries are reasonably cheap, a gas station could be equipped with a bank of the batteries to smooth out demand. They would only have a problem if a solid stream of customers came, without a break, and there was a car charging at every outlet, every minute, for several hours. That almost never happens with ordinary gas stations, except during emergencies such as an evacuation or when the power goes out nearly everywhere and only one gas station is left open. Gas stations run out of fuel during these rare events, so an overwhelmed electric charging station would probably not be much worse than a gas station. During an evacuation, electric cars could always be charged at emergency charging stations or at people's houses and offices. You can set up a temporary charging station much more easily than you can established a temporary gas station.

The biggest problem with charging stations would be lack of customers. I think most people would find it more convenient to recharge at home overnight, rather than interrupt their commute.

If these batteries are reasonably light, they might allow electric vehicles with a 200 mile (300 km) range. That would be enough for nearly all travel and commuting applications.

There also schemes to use high-capacity capacitors for urban buses. Every bus stop would be equipped with power mains to recharge the bus while the passengers get on and off. This seems impractical to me.


It doesn't sol= ve the energy source problem . . .

I think it would solve the energy source problem, at least in the US. The US has plenty of fuel suitable for electric power generation, including coal, uranium and wind. Also, electric cars are far more efficient than gasoline powered model, so if all cars and trucks were replaced with electric powered models, and all electric generators were brought up to close to state-of-the-art efficiency (40%) overall demand for energy would drop by ~13 quads out 101 total. Overall demand for oil would drop by ~70%.

See:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/diagram1.html

- Jed
--=====================_14613843==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 10:59:55 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TIxctx014095; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:59:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TIxWHq014031; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:59:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:59:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329134447.02b99090 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:59:13 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: New battery technology In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_15771671==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58733 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_15771671==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >The biggest problem with charging stations would be lack of customers. I >think most people would find it more convenient to recharge at home >overnight, rather than interrupt their commute. In other words, charging stations would only be economically viable on highways where people travel hundreds of miles from their houses and offices, but you would see no charging stations in major cities. When a third of gasoline cars are replaced by electric cars, the demand for gasoline would fall, most gas stations would close, and you would soon see no gasoline stations in major cities either. That would be an advantage, not a problem. Gas stations are ugly. If most of them went out of business that would force the rest of the gasoline vehicle fleet owners to switch over to electricity, which would be a plus. I think this kind of transition could occur much faster than most people realize. (I am not saying it will, but it could.) It would take 10 or 20 years if government and industry got serious. Gasoline at $5 per gallon would do the trick. On March 28, New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman suggested that the government should impose a tax on gasoline to keep the price at $4 per gallon. See: "Geo-Greening by Example." That is an excellent idea but it would never fly. Still, it is remarkable that serious newspapers are suggesting such radical steps. Friedman wrote: "By doing nothing to lower U.S. oil consumption, we are financing both sides in the war on terrorism and strengthening the worst governments in the world." Friedman also advocated building nuclear power plants again. That may happen. It is much more likely than the advent of a tax to raise the price of gas to $4/gallon. I sense a groundswell of support for conventional nuclear power in the national press. Unfortunately I have seen no reference whatever in the press to cold fusion -- or hot fusion for that matter. - Jed --=====================_15771671==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

The biggest problem with charging stations would be lack of customers. I think most people would find it more convenient to recharge at home overnight, rather than interrupt their commute.

In other words, charging stations would only be economically viable on highways where people travel hundreds of miles from their houses and offices, but you would see no charging stations in major cities. When a third of gasoline cars are replaced by electric cars, the demand for gasoline would fall, most gas stations would close, and you would soon see no gasoline stations in major cities either. That would be an advantage, not a problem. Gas stations are ugly. If most of them went out of business that would force the rest of the gasoline vehicle fleet owners to switch over to electricity, which would be a plus.

I think this kind of transition could occur much faster than most people realize. (I am not saying it will, but it could.) It would take 10 or 20 years if government and industry got serious. Gasoline at $5 per gallon would do the trick.

On March 28, New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman suggested that the government should impose a tax on gasoline to keep the price at $4 per gallon. See: "Geo-Greening by Example." That is an excellent idea but it would never fly. Still, it is remarkable that serious newspapers are suggesting such radical steps. Friedman wrote: "By doing nothing to lower U.S. oil consumption, we are financing both sides in the war on terrorism and strengthening the worst governments in the world."

Friedman also advocated building nuclear power plants again. That may happen. It is much more likely than the advent of a tax to raise the price of gas to $4/gallon. I sense a groundswell of support for conventional nuclear power in the national press. Unfortunately I have seen no reference whatever in the press to cold fusion -- or hot fusion for that matter.

- Jed
--=====================_15771671==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 11:13:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TJDOtx028850; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:13:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TJDMNs028799; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:13:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:13:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr0ks$o82h7j mxip05a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,131,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="813778163:sNHT326996968" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: vortex-list CC: Subject: Re: New battery technology Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:11:06 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Before we divide the bear into all of its succulent parts it might be wise to verify the source of the news. So far I can't verify it. On top of that, according to Toshiba they were planning on getting out of the rechargeable lithium ion battery business See: http://www.toshiba.com/taec/cgi-bin/display.cgi?table=Family&FamilyID=8 Can somebody supply the link? It's not quite April 1st yet. Fess up!!!! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson OrionWorks.com > > From: "R. Wormus" > Date: 2005/03/29 Tue PM 05:34:20 GMT > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: New battery technology > > Press Release: > > New battery offers unsurpassed recharge performance and high energy density > TOKYO -- Toshiba Corporation today announced a breakthrough in lithium-ion > batteries that makes long recharge times a thing of the past. The company's > new battery can recharge 80% of a battery's energy capacity in only one > minute, approximately 60 times faster than the typical lithium-ion > batteries in wide use today, and combines this fast recharge time with > performance-boosting improvements in energy density. > > The new battery fuses Toshiba's latest advances in nano-material technology > for the electric devices sector with cumulative know-how in manufacturing > lithium-ion battery cells. A breakthrough technology applied to the > negative electrode uses new nano-particles to prevent organic liquid > electrolytes from reducing during battery recharging. The nano-particles > quickly absorb and store vast amount of lithium ions, without causing any > deterioration in the electrode. > > The excellent recharging characteristics of new battery are not its only > performance advantages. The battery has a long life cycle, losing only 1% > of capacity after 1,000 cycles of discharging and recharging, and can > operate at very low temperatures. At minus 40 degrees centigrade, the > battery can discharge 80% of its capacity, against 100% in an ambient > temperature of 25 degree centigrade). > > Toshiba will bring the new rechargeable battery to commercial products in > 2006. Initial applications will be in the automotive and industrial > sectors, where the slim, small-sized battery will deliver large amounts of > energy while requiring only a minute to recharge. For example, the > battery's advantages in size, weight and safety highly suit it for a role > as an alternative power source for hybrid electric vehicles. > > Toshiba expects that the high energy density and excellent recharge > performance of the new battery will assure its successful application as a > new energy solution in many areas of society. > > Major Specifications of New Battery > > Excellent Recharge Performance > The thin battery recharges to 80% of full capacity in only a minute. Total > recharge takes only a few more minutes. > > High Energy Density > Small and light, the new battery offers a high level of storage efficiency. > The prototype battery is only 3.8mm thick, 62mm high and 35mm deep and has > a capacity of 600mAh. > > Long Life Cycle > A prototype of new battery (a laminated lithium ion battery with 600mAh > capacity) was discharged and fully recharged 1,000 times at a temperature > of 25 degrees centigrade and lost only 1% of capacity during the test. > > Temperature > The new battery operates well in extremes of temperature. It discharges 80% > of its capacity at minus 40 degrees centigrade, against 100% at an ambient > temperature of 25 degrees centigrade, and loses only 5% of capacity at > temperatures as high as 45 degrees centigrade after 1,000 cycles. These > characteristics assure the wide applicability of the battery as a power > source for products as diverse as hybrid vehicles and mobile phones. > > Eco-friendly Battery > The new battery can quickly store energy produced by locomotives and > automobiles. This speedy and highly effective recharge characteristic of > the battery will support CO2 reduction, as the battery can save and re-use > energy that was simply wasted before. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 11:34:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TJYhtx013321; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:34:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TJYQpw013137; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:34:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:34:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=cEph/+ldTIqaNFQZF5KRa8VgVCQ5FLTaBtyHsnkOSjz6PKA6MGaRyCisaUHczzB/KHQ3reVmpVRYakUKiuuA/eY9L9H0roSj0opN9vWFNjYIfo8UW/gE/ZG9xbKT7IVyIdK0+4Kg6Eyuo8WcqIJI0mFytmVbQKXvqKSkEKkK8WA= ; Message-ID: <20050329193408.79056.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:34:08 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: New battery technology To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3rr0ks$o82h7j mxip05a.cluster1.charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-169098202-1112124848=:76948" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-169098202-1112124848=:76948 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=toshiba+battery orionworks charter.net wrote:Before we divide the bear into all of its succulent parts it might be wise to verify the source of the news. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-169098202-1112124848=:76948 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=toshiba+battery

orionworks charter.net wrote:
Before we divide the bear into all of its succulent parts it might be wise to verify the source of the news.

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-169098202-1112124848=:76948-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 11:41:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TJf5tx019827; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:41:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TJeril019701; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:40:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:40:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr04b$mrmuej mxip02a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,131,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="767261139:sNHT13776384" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: Subject: Re: Re: New battery technology Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:40:39 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > From: Terry Blanton > > http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=toshiba+battery > > orionworks charter.net wrote:Before we divide the bear into all of its succulent parts it might be wise to verify the source of the news. Thanks, Terry! I love it when my suspicions can be proven wrong! Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 12:14:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TKE2tx012953; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:14:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TKDs2G012886; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:13:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:13:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <005301c5349b$cbd498d0$a27accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: New battery technology Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:13:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <8YkGi.A.RJD.AcbSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58739 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Toshiba battery technology is very impressive and will be a bonanza for them and lots of gadgets, but before one goes overboard about the electric automobile, do your arithmetic. Jed is spot on in remembering my caution about electric filling stations. On a turnpike, you pull lin and in five minutes get refilled with the energy to travel some 300 miles at 80 mph in 3.75 hours. The actual power delivered to the wheels is not bad, say 20 kW. So that's (3.75)(20) = 75 kWH to be delivered to the battery in 1/12 hour, at a rate of (75)(12) = 900 kW, which will vaporize the battery. Think about this carefully, and multiply by 10 cars at a time. Ot think about it in a remote rural station on the road from nowhere to nowhere else. Now if you are going to deliver the same energy, 75 kWH overnight, say 12 hours, that's only a 6.25 kW rate. With 200+ volt service it's only 31+ amperes from your utility, about 8 horsepower. You can spin these numbers many ways, and they don't apply to crawling in metropolitan commuter traffic, where electric cars can perform very efficiently -- as long as you don't use the heater or air conditioner. It is worthwhile to understand that the cooling capcity of a car air conditioner is comparable with a whole house system. Don't be misled by its compactness. The compressor can draw some four horsepower from the engine, much more than a home compressor. The car air conditoner has to chill you quick and keep you cool on a hot road in the hot sun with an inefficient furnace in front of you. For an electric car, the furnace isn't there and insulation can be better. The current litium ion technology is expensive. Lead acid batteries are good for delivering huge current surges necessary for starters and highway passing. I assume lithium ion batteries can be designed for automotive service. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 12:25:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TKOxtx020689; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:25:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TKOrY7020616; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:24:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:24:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:32:40 -0700 From: Ron Wormus Reply-To: Ron Wormus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Battery link at Toshiba Message-ID: <29422171.1112103160 localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here you are: http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2005_03/pr2901.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 12:40:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TKe2tx030692; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:40:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TKdrqn030577; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:39:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:39:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=qM7JaJWZa7UvKm24AxTYNAuzvzyxjrMlM1s4zvnjcYH/7EebONIJmZJLk9hFsJJXp40TU3DnfPQxAZm68PC7n0Gm0pL2FiPUshoHOIqW5SJ9CuvdKrOWpK+5FS5Vf5CAs6mXpiBzEkiXEmyhCxyDEb04h2ieanGz6xde5UhsPZU= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:39:41 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: Ron Wormus Subject: Re: Battery link at Toshiba In-Reply-To: <29422171.1112103160 localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <29422171.1112103160 localhost> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2TKdjtx030522 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: warning, virus. dont click. On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:32:40 -0700, Ron Wormus wrote: > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 13:12:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TLCctx015472; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:12:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TLCa1g015449; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:12:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:12:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329153301.02bed6a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:12:18 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: New battery technology In-Reply-To: <005301c5349b$cbd498d0$a27accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8 pop.mindspring.com> <005301c5349b$cbd498d0$a27accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_23756031==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_23756031==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Mike Carrell wrote: >delivered to the battery in 1/12 hour, at a rate of (75)(12) = 900 kW, which >will vaporize the battery. Obviously if these batteries can charge 10 times faster than normal batteries, as advertised, they must be remarkably efficient so they do not produce much waste heat. Most of the 900 kW would convert directly into electric potential, and only about 90 kW converting to heat. That's pretty hot, but with a good radiator and exhaust fan it would not vaporize the battery or cause a fire. With a lead-acid battery, which is 70% efficient, it would produce 200 or 300 kW, which *would* cause a fire. > Think about this carefully, and multiply by 10 >cars at a time. Ot think about it in a remote rural station on the road from >nowhere to nowhere else. Ah, but imagine the rural station equipped with buffer battery of batteries (BBB). Let's say enough to charge 5 cars. This would smooth out the flow and allow a reasonably small main electric feed. A huge charging station on a major highway with 20 charge bay slots might require a BBB large enough to hold a charge for ~100 cars, and an electric power main large enough to recharge the BBB in 2 or 3 hours. It would not need power mains capable of charging all 20 slots simultaneously. If the 20-slot BBB recharges in 2 hours it would demand only 1/4th the power of a direct system with no buffer. In other words, the station manager would assume that over his busiest 2-hour rush hour period only 5 of the charge bays slots are filled on average. All 20 might fill up briefly, but on average only 5 are filled. If more customers show up they have to wait for a while while the BBB refills. If that happens often, the charge station manager has to purchase a larger BBB and possibly another main power line. Direct charge for the 20-slot charge station would call for 18 MW power mains; a 2-hour BBB would call for 4.5 MW; a 3-hour BBB would need 3 MW, which is reasonable. Remember, you would only need charging stations on busy highways. A back road charging station might be part of a general store, and it would only need a BBB capable of servicing one or two cars, with a 4 hour recharge time (450 kW main). In a busy city where there are no charging stations, from time to time a driver might leave home without realizing the car is about to run out of power and cannot make it to the office. He would be out of luck. He would have to pull into a Dunkin' Donuts store and use their friendly customer "emergency charge slot" which would take 15 or 20 minutes for a partial recharge (say, 20 kW), and cost him $5. He would eat a doughnut while he waited, and he be late to work. This would not be a big deal because it would not happen often. These cars will be a lot smarter than today's cars. Their computers will learn the drivers habits, the way TiVo gadgets do, and computer will warn the driver in most cases, with a verbal message: "If you are about to leave on your daily commute you will probably run out of power." When a driver arrives late to work and covered with doughnut crumbs, he will plug in the car at one of the charge slots in the parking lot, and leave it to charge up all day. Office building parking lots might have five or 10 charge slots, or about as many as they have handicapped parking slots now. They would only be needed for people who forgot to charge up or people who commute a very long distance. These slots would require only modest power mains, because they would recharge as slowly as the overnight main at home. >The current litium ion technology is expensive. Lead acid batteries are good >for delivering huge current surges necessary for starters and highway >passing. I assume lithium ion batteries can be designed for automotive >service. The Toshiba site describes hybrid engine applications: "The new battery can quickly store energy produced by locomotives and automobiles. This speedy and highly effective recharge characteristic of the battery will support CO2 reduction, as the battery can save and re-use energy that was simply wasted before." - Jed --=====================_23756031==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Mike Carrell wrote:

delivered to the battery in 1/12 hour, at a rate of (75)(12) = 900 kW, which
will vaporize the battery.

Obviously if these batteries can charge 10 times faster than normal batteries, as advertised, they must be remarkably efficient so they do not produce much waste heat. Most of the 900 kW would convert directly into electric potential, and only about 90 kW converting to heat. That's pretty hot, but with a good radiator and exhaust fan it would not vaporize the battery or cause a fire. With a lead-acid battery, which is 70% efficient, it would produce 200 or 300 kW, which *would* cause a fire.


 Think about this carefully, and multiply by 10
cars at a time. Ot think about it in a remote rural station on the road from
nowhere to nowhere else.

Ah, but imagine the rural station equipped with buffer battery of batteries (BBB). Let's say enough to charge 5 cars. This would smooth out the flow and allow a reasonably small main electric feed. A huge charging station on a major highway with 20 charge bay slots might require a BBB large enough to hold a charge for ~100 cars, and an electric power main large enough to recharge the BBB in 2 or 3 hours. It would not need power mains capable of charging all 20 slots simultaneously.

If the 20-slot BBB recharges in 2 hours it would demand only 1/4th the power of a direct system with no buffer. In other words, the station manager would assume that over his busiest 2-hour rush hour period only 5 of the charge bays slots are filled on average. All 20 might fill up briefly, but on average only 5 are filled. If more customers show up they have to wait for a while while the BBB refills. If that happens often, the charge station manager has to purchase a larger BBB and possibly another main power line.

Direct charge for the 20-slot charge station would call for 18 MW power mains; a 2-hour BBB would call for 4.5 MW; a 3-hour BBB would need 3 MW, which is reasonable.

Remember, you would only need charging stations on busy highways. A back road charging station might be part of a general store, and it would only need a BBB capable of servicing one or two cars, with a 4 hour recharge time (450 kW main).

In a busy city where there are no charging stations, from time to time a driver might leave home without realizing the car is about to run out of power and cannot make it to the office. He would be out of luck. He would have to pull into a Dunkin' Donuts store and use their friendly customer "emergency charge slot" which would take 15 or 20 minutes for a partial recharge (say, 20 kW), and cost him $5. He would eat a doughnut while he waited, and he be late to work. This would not be a big deal because it would not happen often. These cars will be a lot smarter than today's cars. Their computers will learn the drivers habits, the way TiVo gadgets do, and computer will warn the driver in most cases, with a verbal message: "If you are about to leave on your daily commute you will probably run out of power."

When a driver arrives late to work and covered with doughnut crumbs, he will plug in the car at one of the charge slots in the parking lot, and leave it to charge up all day. Office building parking lots might have five or 10 charge slots, or about as many as they have handicapped parking slots now. They would only be needed for people who forgot to charge up or people who commute a very long distance. These slots would require only modest power mains, because they would recharge as slowly as the overnight main at home.


The current litium ion technology is expensive. Lead acid batteries are good
for delivering huge current surges necessary for starters and highway
passing. I assume lithium ion batteries can be designed for automotive
service.

The Toshiba site describes hybrid engine applications:

"The new battery can quickly store energy produced by locomotives and automobiles. This speedy and highly effective recharge characteristic of the battery will support CO2 reduction, as the battery can save and re-use energy that was simply wasted before."

- Jed
--=====================_23756031==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 13:20:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TLKltx020369; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:20:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TLKdtn020311; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:20:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:20:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=x7kvqCXS/g1rCiMNrrlw4F51IOq2tPFEBbqTur0NQywiHSfzX6HxdPTiXwoQu3Nrf6bCndkpmv8tF8enPH0vjC/0JAXTVWaQZ9KFP3X+2et3a9zgauyyynOJN+vEnW9wJn4C7YpwpbNZnxEmMB1SGFYFVmHdFC/it198n7xFsuU= ; Message-ID: <20050329212026.60914.qmail web51709.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:20:26 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: New battery technology To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1134607012-1112131226=:60492" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1134607012-1112131226=:60492 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii They are now available for your human transporter: http://segway.com/segway/lithium_ion.html Mike Carrell wrote: I assume lithium ion batteries can be designed for automotive service. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1134607012-1112131226=:60492 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
They are now available for your human transporter:
 
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Mike Carrell <mikec snip.net> wrote:
I assume lithium ion batteries can be designed for automotive
service.

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http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1134607012-1112131226=:60492-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 13:27:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TLQutx025293; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:26:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TLQpM1025246; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:26:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:26:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002301c534a6$0618c7f0$a969c218 hanksblackbox> From: "Hank Scudder" To: Subject: New battery technology Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:26:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C5347C.1D0BD170" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C5347C.1D0BD170 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vortex-ians I was a regular member of this group three years ago, when I lived = in LA and I commuted regularly with an electric car. I was in grad = school at CSUN at the time, and lived eight miles from the school. In = the morning I would unplug the car from my driveway, drive to school, = park at the school parking lot which had a free plug, charge all day, at = about 10 amps average, drive home at night, and plug in again overnight = at home, The car used 12-6 volt batteries, Pb-acid type such as in golf = carts. The batteries would last about three years with this loading. I = had a very steep one mile long hill just before I arrived at home, and = the car would pull 600 amps during the climb. It was quite practical, = and I commuted for six years this way . These new batteries would be great, if I could afford them. I still = have the car, stored on my daughters farm near the Canadian Border. She = uses it in the summertime to commute to the school she works at. The car = has no top, (a roadster), so its not ideal in the NE, but was fine in LA A picture of the car is at = http://www.getmsm.com/ev/tropica/default.htm Hank Scudder ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C5347C.1D0BD170 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Vortex-ians
    I was a regular = member of this=20 group three years ago, when I lived in LA and I commuted regularly with = an=20 electric car. I was in grad school at CSUN at the time, and lived eight = miles=20 from the school. In the morning I would unplug the car from my driveway, = drive=20 to school, park at the school parking lot which had a free plug, charge = all day,=20 at about 10 amps average, drive home at night, and plug in again = overnight at=20 home, The car used 12-6 volt batteries, Pb-acid type such as in golf = carts. The=20 batteries would last about three years with this loading. I had a very = steep one=20 mile long hill just before I arrived at home, and the car would pull 600 = amps=20 during the climb. It was quite practical, and I commuted for six = years this=20 way
.
     These new = batteries would=20 be great, if I could afford them. I still have the car, stored on my = daughters=20 farm near the Canadian Border. She uses it in the summertime to commute = to the=20 school she works at. The car has no top, (a roadster), so its not ideal = in the=20 NE, but was fine in LA
 
    A picture of the car = is at http://www.getmsm.c= om/ev/tropica/default.htm
 
 
Hank Scudder
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C5347C.1D0BD170-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 13:31:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TLVFtx028784; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:31:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TLVCX7028742; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:31:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:31:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329161857.02be87f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:30:32 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: New battery technology In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329153301.02bed6a0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8 pop.mindspring.com> <005301c5349b$cbd498d0$a27accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050329153301.02bed6a0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_24871453==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_24871453==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I wrote: >That's pretty hot, but with a good radiator and exhaust fan it would not >vaporize the battery or cause a fire. With a lead-acid battery, which is >70% efficient, it would produce 200 or 300 kW, which *would* cause a fire. I should have said: "If a lead acid battery could recharge this quickly it *would* cause a fire." >He would have to pull into a Dunkin' Donuts store and use their friendly >customer "emergency charge slot" which would take 15 or 20 minutes for a >partial recharge (say, 20 kW), and cost him $5. As I said earlier, it is much easier to set up a low-capacity or emergency charge station than a gasoline station. You can put small electric car charge stations in parking lots anywhere. A few Atlanta malls already have some, in fact. Stores were people are likely to stop along the way to work anyway, such as Dunkin' Donuts, will probably offer a few. A Dunkin' Donuts might even have a 2-car BBB, which would allow a person to recharge in six minutes. This calls for much less infrastructure than today's gas station. Safety and equipment maintenance would be a much smaller problem. Judging by the size of the bank of batteries needed in today's electric automobiles, and taking into account the fact that the new Toshiba battery is smaller and lighter, a 2-car BBB would be a box roughly the size of household external air-conditioner unit, or a kitchen stove. It would not be huge or expensive. If gasoline goes up to $4 or $5 per gallon, you will see this kind of thing implemented with lightning speed -- much faster than anyone has predicted or imagined lately. By comparison, consider how long it took to equip nearly every city, town and highway in the US with gasoline stations. That transition occurred from 1908 to 1925 -- 17 years -- and it was not done in response to a dire national emergency. - Jed --=====================_24871453==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I wrote:

That's pretty hot, but with a good radiator and exhaust fan it would not vaporize the battery or cause a fire. With a lead-acid battery, which is 70% efficient, it would produce 200 or 300 kW, which *would* cause a fire.

I should have said: "If a lead acid battery could recharge this quickly it *would* cause a fire."


He would have to pull into a Dunkin' Donuts store and use their friendly customer "emergency charge slot" which would take 15 or 20 minutes for a partial recharge (say, 20 kW), and cost him $5.

As I said earlier, it is much easier to set up a low-capacity or emergency charge station than a gasoline station. You can put small electric car charge stations in parking lots anywhere. A few Atlanta malls already have some, in fact. Stores were people are likely to stop along the way to work anyway, such as Dunkin' Donuts, will probably offer a few. A Dunkin' Donuts might even have a 2-car BBB, which would allow a person to recharge in six minutes. This calls for much less infrastructure than today's gas station. Safety and equipment maintenance would be a much smaller problem. Judging by the size of the bank of batteries needed in today's electric automobiles, and taking into account the fact that the new Toshiba battery is smaller and lighter, a 2-car BBB would be a box roughly the size of household external air-conditioner unit, or a kitchen stove. It would not be huge or expensive.

If gasoline goes up to $4 or $5 per gallon, you will see this kind of thing implemented with lightning speed -- much faster than anyone has predicted or imagined lately. By comparison, consider how long it took to equip nearly every city, town and highway in the US with gasoline stations. That transition occurred from 1908 to 1925 -- 17 years -- and it was not done in response to a dire national emergency.

- Jed
--=====================_24871453==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 13:46:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TLkctx005541; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:46:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TLkaf5005522; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:46:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:46:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=F3tRVNs2RNUTTDVOU8aDFECbyTyZXRKIO2PDDmHLvXydO1yQDuhyzDl+18jpgvY/ZwKJuBsByoG9s7Kn5/4apIgQ9PRaW0Rw8fTh2OeEXZMQYILdq1gkke2cNe1kNwPXBTHElOcwszcCe+wiaVdfdeeD3aQCIiyRqtdNIK4fhQk= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:46:32 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New battery technology In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329161857.02be87f0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8 pop.mindspring.com> <005301c5349b$cbd498d0$a27accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050329153301.02bed6a0 pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050329161857.02be87f0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2TLkVtx005473 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: and you are makeing a big assumption. that everyone would do a full charge everytime. do people fill the tank every time? so for ten cents on your order, or maybe even free, mcdonalds will charge your car as you go through the drive through. 2 minutes of charging, last you a couple hours driving. On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:30:32 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wrote: > > That's pretty hot, but with a good radiator and exhaust fan it would not > vaporize the battery or cause a fire. With a lead-acid battery, which is 70% > efficient, it would produce 200 or 300 kW, which *would* cause a fire. > I should have said: "If a lead acid battery could recharge this quickly it > *would* cause a fire." > > > He would have to pull into a Dunkin' Donuts store and use their friendly > customer "emergency charge slot" which would take 15 or 20 minutes for a > partial recharge (say, 20 kW), and cost him $5. > As I said earlier, it is much easier to set up a low-capacity or emergency > charge station than a gasoline station. You can put small electric car > charge stations in parking lots anywhere. A few Atlanta malls already have > some, in fact. Stores were people are likely to stop along the way to work > anyway, such as Dunkin' Donuts, will probably offer a few. A Dunkin' Donuts > might even have a 2-car BBB, which would allow a person to recharge in six > minutes. This calls for much less infrastructure than today's gas station. > Safety and equipment maintenance would be a much smaller problem. Judging by > the size of the bank of batteries needed in today's electric automobiles, > and taking into account the fact that the new Toshiba battery is smaller and > lighter, a 2-car BBB would be a box roughly the size of household external > air-conditioner unit, or a kitchen stove. It would not be huge or expensive. > > If gasoline goes up to $4 or $5 per gallon, you will see this kind of thing > implemented with lightning speed -- much faster than anyone has predicted or > imagined lately. By comparison, consider how long it took to equip nearly > every city, town and highway in the US with gasoline stations. That > transition occurred from 1908 to 1925 -- 17 years -- and it was not done in > response to a dire national emergency. > > - Jed > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 14:15:20 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TMFBtx025205; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:15:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TMEwh4025086; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:14:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:14:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <089e01c534ab$888e3440$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: Cc: References: <410-220053229112159320 earthlink.net> Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:06:17 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: <7SgjB.A.5HG.hNdSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber writes, > > Hi Horace, you write: Graneau does indeed suggest there exists some mechanism whereby energy can be stored in molecular bonds, and that the source of the energy so stored is solar. > I think the proper term for the molecular (solar stored) energy effect is called Fluorescence, Keith ... :-) Well, there is a fluorescence connection to the Graneau ("big water") experiment, but it is not obvious, nor necessarily derived from solar exposure. Graneau may have found excess energy, but that does not mean that he got the explanation exactly correct. I submit that the real source of the excess energy in Graneau's work is ultimately ZPE. Both the energy derived from breaking of hydrogen bonds in a 260 atom **water cluster** and any excess mass derived from exposure to cryogenic temperature would be derived ultimately from ZPE. It matters not that the bond energy content is calculated as negative or positive at the outset. The Casimir force can be restated to be the mechanical effects of a "particular spatial strata" which can be repulsive or attractive within a particular "hierarchical aether spectrum"- which Frank Grimer is calling beta-aether. The Casimir is also a "vacuum fluctuation," since that strata is not physically located in our 3-space but instead is located in the "active vacuum" (reciprocal space) - as distinguished from the literal meaning of that word, "vacuum." The Casimir is also a secondary (or derivative) "field," but with field-effects which are dictated by its local geometry in which spatial effects are operating and focusing or shielding electromagnetic fields and to a lesser extent, the omnipresent neutron flux. That is why the Casimir force can be called a derivative form of ZPE - it only dictates how other primary fields operate at close spacing - in the case of the beta-aether, we have what seems to be a spacing of about 2-20 nanometers. BTW there are some arguments which try to deny the self-sameness of the Casimir and ZPE - which are often political (science-agenda ploys), rather than purely scientific. For present purposes, the Casimir will be (re)defined to be a subset of ZPE - which, yes, is an agenda statement, but an accurate one. It is my contention that the "local geometry" where the Casimir force is working is related directly to Dirac's epo field which is the basis of the ZPF (and is basically a "negative energy" field). According to the expert on Dirac theory, Don Hotson, the epo acts as if were a BEC. That is to say, we move through the Dirac epo field "as if it wasn't there, without any resistance normally, because it acts uniformly from another impinging dimension, but with "super-fluidity." Super-fluidity is a characteristic of a BEC. When in Quantum Mechanics, we hear of the "froth of virtual positronium" - we are referring to the interface between normal matter and this epo-BEC, which interfacial contact causes some disruption at time scales that are too short to be noticed normally. The initial geometric problem with this interpretation of the Casimir being a subset of ZPE ot the epo-field, is that the epo is based on a particulate-size of less than one angstrom, while the Casimir is strongest at about 8 times this linear dimension- or a spherical volume increase of about 400 hydrogen atoms. Coincidentally, this is the exact size of the water-particulate of Graneau's 'active water' --- which is water which is maximized in these clusters due to exposure to high altitude cold - and/or solar. The result is more clusters per unit of water. This is the *Icosahedral Water Cluster* of 280 atoms, which can be seen on Chaplin' s fine site: http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/clusters.html When this structure is violently fractured we have a mini-Bridgman effect and energy release. As Horace says -"Bond energy" in a traditional sense is an energy well, and may be a *lack* of potential energy, not a source of potential energy, BUT as Frank suggests, it does not matter if (initially) that bond energy is positive or negative, because it is thereafter shifted by Casimir power law acceleration to higher order where the eventual kinetic effects of our 3-space are always calculated as positive. If Graneau is listening here is a suggestion - try using superchilled water at about 30,000 psi and around 126 degree K in order to get into the water through the ice-3 or ice-9 regime, after which there should be an enormous phase change and double-boost on a discharge of current ! IMHO you should get far more than the doubling of energy which you now see - perhaps an order of magnitude more. There is a possibility that some mixture of cryogenic water with or without liquid air, when injected into a diesel engine, can substitute for fossil fuel, in whole or in part. OK. It may be a small possibility... even miniscule, but it deserves to be tested experimentally. To me this is the future of nanotechnology - fuel nanotechnology which capitalizes on the Casimir effect using cheap materials (water and air). Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 14:33:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TMXYtx003501; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:33:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TMXQrE003373; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:33:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:33:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050329223130.006b6070 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:31:30 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:45 am 29-03-05 -0900, Horace wrote: > At 12:40 AM 3/29/5, Grimer wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------- >> You of all people, Horace, should be well aware of that >> since I took the trouble to mail the relevant research >> publications to your northern eerie. > The stuff you mailed me did not appear to provide > any more information than what you already posted. That's not true. I mailed you the original published papers which obviously provided far more information than any post I sent to Vortex. ---------------------------------------------------------- > Most importantly, it did not provide the numerical > data to which you say a power-law fit is implied. Of course it didn't. No publication would have accepted the reams of numerical data set out it the International Critical Tables. But the Southampton paper gave a reference to the International Critical tables and anyone who doubted the experimental fit had only to look them up and check for themselves. The whole strength of the power curve evidence was the fact it was based on completely independent and extremely detailed data of unquestioned authenticity which was available to anybody and everybody, and had been for yonks. > Unfortunately Chaplin does not provide the numerical > data either. For exactly the same reason as I didn't. You disappoint me, Horace. 8-( ---------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------- >> Let me explain with a simple example which everybody >> can follow. >> >> Consider a tank of water with the following items in >> suspension half way up the column. A thin spherical >> glass christmas decoration strung to a lead weight. >> Cut the string and the lead weight falls to the bottom >> of the tank - your "deeper energy well". But what >> happens to the glass ball. That doesn't fall to the >> bottom of the tank, does it! It rises to the top of >> the hill, the surface of the water in the tank. > Where is the free energy cycle in this? How is this > analogous? The > analogy falls down in that here > it takes energy to form the bond and energy > is released when the bond is broken. Clearly, you haven't even begun to grasp the concept of positive and negative strain energy, so unsurprisingly, the analogy is no help. ---------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------- >> The Graneaus are spot on in their contention that >> energy is stored in inter-molecular bonds. > But, the Graneaus do not contend that energy is stored > in all chemical bonds, not even in all H2O bonds. Energy > is only stored in *selected* H2O bonds after exposure to > sunlight. I don't think there is any point in pursuing that one any further since you have failed to address the question of a hierarchy of negative and positive strain energy and until you do - you are not going to understand my views. ---------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------- >>Anyway, I don't believe re-energising has anything to do >>with the sun or any other more exotic explanation. > > >Citing Graneau doesn't make this case though. Obviously, since I am claiming that Graneau is mistaken on this point. ---------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------- > Since using the Graneau approach there is no repeatable > closed cycle, the >COP is small, and the input is in the > form of expensive electrical energy, >there are some serious > hurdles remaining to jump to obtain a practical > device. Absolutely. But let's not be party poopers. Let's try to look on the bright side and believe that the difficulties can be overcome. I do. 8-) ---------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------- >> In other words, if we can recognise that water is a >> fuel just like petrol - only a bit different - then >> as far as I am concerned we have achieved >> "...water into wine..." 8-) > Unfortunately, it is not only recognition or belief > that is required. A practical device is required. I couldn't agree more. A practical device is indeed required. You can't turn water into wine without stone jars to put it in. But you are never going to develop a practical device without belief. Forty years of scientific research has taught me that the stronger that belief, the more likely you are to succeed. --------------------------------------------------------- Cheers Frank Grimer ================================================= amen quippe dico vobis si habueritis fidem sicut granum sinapis dicetis monti huic transi hinc et transibit et nihil inpossibile erit vobis ================================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 14:52:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TMpstx019970; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:51:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TMpoU8019884; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:51:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:51:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <08e801c534b1$96409dc0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8@pop.mindspring.com> <005301c5349b$cbd498d0$a27accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050329153301.02bed6a0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050329161857.02be87f0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: New battery technology Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:49:37 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell > If gasoline goes up to $4 or $5 per gallon, you will see this kind of thing implemented with lightning speed -- much faster than anyone has predicted or imagined lately. ....even as things stand now, one wonder how long it will take... In trying to equate battery recharge costs to a gasoline powered ICE, it is challenge to get figures which reflect an accurate cross-comparison. There should be an online site for this ..?? A figure of 30 kilowatts is often used as an adequate power for normal driving. It is easy to see that with electricity at $ .10 / kwh you could drive for an hour at top speed for not much over $3, using electricity, if you didn't experience too much heat loss in the recharge ... and if electricity doesn't go way up soon (let's hope not) and the motor/battery is ~95% efficient. With gasoline having an energy content of 114,000 btu/gallon and an ICE engine having an efficiency of ~25% you are getting about 28,000 btu equivalent or 8.2 kwh for your same $3. Therefore to get the same 30 kwh equivalent from a gasoline powered automobile, it would seem to cost over three times more with gas at $3 gallon, which it will be this summer, without some kind of voodoo economics at work. If I got the numbers right, that is. That comparison does seem high - does anyone have an accurate site for finding these comparison numbers? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 15:00:48 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TN0Hu7027360; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:00:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TMie8L014991; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:44:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:44:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr769$tata1b mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,132,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="984524843:sNHT32561020" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: New battery technology Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:44:25 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58749 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A lot of fascinating Vortexian discussion has been generated on this topic, as it well should. Meanwhile, I performed an unscientific Reality Check and noticed that CNN.COM has yet to report on this apparent technological breakthrough, particularly in the Technology section. We are instead presented with, ...yawn..., another allegation of child porn - in the case of a former top Boy Scout official. If this technological breakthrough is as significant as some claim it could turn out to be, I think it would be fascinating to observe how the ramifications will be received and implemented within our society. Details to pay special attention to might be: 1. Who gets wind of the technology first? What do they do about it? 2. What happens to stocks? Which companies benefit, and which ones suffer. 3. When does the news hit the general public? The "general public" IMHO, is usually the last to get wind of these things. They seem to be far more titillated with yet another porn case. Obviously, these leaner and meaner batteries are welcome news. OTOH, I would estimate that this technology would be no where NEAR as disruptive as, oh, let's say, a verified ZPE device or CF reactor the size of a close hamper that is capable of generating ten to twenty kilowatts of power. IOW, these batteries might generate what I might describe as a Minor Technological Disruption. How BIG or LITTLE is the 64 dollar question. Ok, Jed, and the rest of you heavyweights, how do you think this technology will play out? At present, I will add only one speculation of my own: It seems logical to assume that this recent "breakthrough" may only be the harbinger of a long line of brand new technological breakthroughs within the nano-field of energy storage devices. Since Toshiba has apparently proven that this technology is economically feasible it seems logical to assume that EVERYONE will now want to get in on the ground floor and try to improve on the battery concept since everyone now knows it is possible. It is now proven technology From the R&D point of view it's not as risky an endeavor. I bet they will succeed. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 15:14:59 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TNEktx009127; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:14:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TNEbdn009005; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:14:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:14:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <090e01c534b4$c98632a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8@pop.mindspring.com> <005301c5349b$cbd498d0$a27accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050329153301.02bed6a0@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050329161857.02be87f0@pop.mindspring.com> <08e801c534b1$96409dc0$d0bcfea9@jonesb9pacbell> Subject: harbinger? Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:12:32 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28129213 N00/sets/181299 You may need this kind of thing in a few years to board an airplane... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 15:17:47 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2TNHatx011679; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:17:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TNHYQm011652; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:17:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:17:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <149d1454-6bdf-4131-9ff7-ea8382e11839> Message-ID: <008f01c534b5$72023780$a27accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8@pop.mindspring.com> <005301c5349b$cbd498d0$a27accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050329153301.02bed6a0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: New battery technology Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:17:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed made some good comments: Mike Carrell wrote: delivered to the battery in 1/12 hour, at a rate of (75)(12) = 900 kW, which will vaporize the battery. Obviously if these batteries can charge 10 times faster than normal batteries, as advertised, they must be remarkably efficient so they do not produce much waste heat. MC: That doesn't follow. Fast charging batteries requires monitoring of the charge state so as not to over charge, with drastic effects on the batery chemistry. The Toshiba design, with management circuits, may allow faster charging, but you are still doing work against chemical and other losses. My lithium ion camera batteries take many hours on trickle charge, and about three hours with a fast charger, so 10% is 30 minutes, not five. In principle, it may be possible to dissipate the waste heat, but don't count on it. 900,000 watts is a lot of power. Realize that power will be delivered at 12 V intially, but more like 48 volts for advanced electric automobiles -- it's still 18,750 amps. Most of the 900 kW would convert directly into electric potential, and only about 90 kW converting to heat. That's pretty hot, but with a good radiator and exhaust fan it would not vaporize the battery or cause a fire. With a lead-acid battery, which is 70% efficient, it would produce 200 or 300 kW, which *would* cause a fire. MC: Even with Jed's optimistic number, that's 90 radiant bathroom heaters in your car. Designing the heat dissipation system for that is no easy task. MC: Think about this carefully, and multiply by 10 cars at a time. Ot think about it in a remote rural station on the road from nowhere to nowhere else. Ah, but imagine the rural station equipped with buffer battery of batteries (BBB). Let's say enough to charge 5 cars. This would smooth out the flow and allow a reasonably small main electric feed. A huge charging station on a major highway with 20 charge bay slots might require a BBB large enough to hold a charge for ~100 cars, and an electric power main large enough to recharge the BBB in 2 or 3 hours. It would not need power mains capable of charging all 20 slots simultaneously. MC: Ah so, but no matter how you sturcture it, it is a massive problem. Just as the expressway gas station has big storage tanks, fed by tanker trucks, one can postulate big battery piles. After a while, it begins to look like an electrified railway system. The Toshiba site describes hybrid engine applications: "The new battery can quickly store energy produced by locomotives and automobiles. This speedy and highly effective recharge characteristic of the battery will support CO2 reduction, as the battery can save and re-use energy that was simply wasted before." MC: It sounds good, and a valuable contribution to the transition to another energy structure. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 16:00:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2U001tx000689; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:00:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2TNxv0L000649; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:59:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:59:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <004b01c534bc$05e95180$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8@pop.mindspring.com> <005301c5349b$cbd498d0$a27accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050329153301.02bed6a0@pop.mindspring.com> <008f01c534b5$72023780$a27accd1@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: New battery technology Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:04:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's not vaporized batteries we need to worry about, it is the power grid and generating stations. The combined output of all of our automotive engines may be more than the combined output of all our generating facilities. We can't replace the nations automotive power by tapping our electric supply. We simply don't have enough. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Carrell" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 6:17 PM Subject: Re: New battery technology > Jed made some good comments: > > Mike Carrell wrote: > > > delivered to the battery in 1/12 hour, at a rate of (75)(12) = 900 kW, which > will vaporize the battery. > > Obviously if these batteries can charge 10 times faster than normal > batteries, as advertised, they must be remarkably efficient so they do not > produce much waste heat. > > MC: That doesn't follow. Fast charging batteries requires monitoring of the > charge state so as not to over charge, with drastic effects on the batery > chemistry. The Toshiba design, with management circuits, may allow faster > charging, but you are still doing work against chemical and other losses. My > lithium ion camera batteries take many hours on trickle charge, and about > three hours with a fast charger, so 10% is 30 minutes, not five. In > principle, it may be possible to dissipate the waste heat, but don't count > on it. 900,000 watts is a lot of power. Realize that power will be delivered > at 12 V intially, but more like 48 volts for advanced electric > automobiles -- it's still 18,750 amps. > > Most of the 900 kW would convert directly into electric potential, and only > about 90 kW converting to heat. That's pretty hot, but with a good radiator > and exhaust fan it would not vaporize the battery or cause a fire. With a > lead-acid battery, which is 70% efficient, it would produce 200 or 300 kW, > which *would* cause a fire. > > MC: Even with Jed's optimistic number, that's 90 radiant bathroom heaters in > your car. Designing the heat dissipation system for that is no easy task. > > MC: Think about this carefully, and multiply by 10 > cars at a time. Ot think about it in a remote rural station on the road from > nowhere to nowhere else. > > Ah, but imagine the rural station equipped with buffer battery of batteries > (BBB). Let's say enough to charge 5 cars. This would smooth out the flow and > allow a reasonably small main electric feed. A huge charging station on a > major highway with 20 charge bay slots might require a BBB large enough to > hold a charge for ~100 cars, and an electric power main large enough to > recharge the BBB in 2 or 3 hours. It would not need power mains capable of > charging all 20 slots simultaneously. > > MC: Ah so, but no matter how you sturcture it, it is a massive problem. Just > as the expressway gas station has big storage tanks, fed by tanker trucks, > one can postulate big battery piles. After a while, it begins to look like > an electrified railway system. > > > > The Toshiba site describes hybrid engine applications: > > "The new battery can quickly store energy produced by locomotives and > automobiles. This speedy and highly effective recharge characteristic of the > battery will support CO2 reduction, as the battery can save and re-use > energy that was simply wasted before." > > MC: It sounds good, and a valuable contribution to the transition to another > energy structure. > > Mike Carrell > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 16:20:02 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2U0Jqtx019496; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:19:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2U0Jn5I019472; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:19:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:19:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: ...water into wine... Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:21:39 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <410-220053229112159320 earthlink.net> X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Fred, Sounds an easy hypothesis to test. Graneau and company could just dope the water with a little carbonic acid, and see if the excess energy increases or returns from spent water. We're all talking about this, but have any of you found and read the actual paper? Just what the hell _is_ a cold fog accelerator anyway??? The mind boggles at such an exotic piece of kit (wink). K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 6:22 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: ...water into wine... Hi Keith, you wrote > > > Hi Horace, you write: > > However, Graneau and Graneau do > > indeed suggest there exists some mechanism whereby energy can be stored in > > molecular bonds, and that the source of the energy so stored is solar. > > Calling Fred Sparber, come in Fred Sparber, here's the > first experiment that seems to show the effect of > solar Sparberinos. > I'm here, Keith. Older and Wiser on my 72nd Birthday. Happy Birthday to Horace Heffner, Vince Cockeram, and Martin Fleischmann, too. I think the proper term for the molecular (solar stored) energy effect is called Fluorescence, Keith. :-) Although it might require the presence of CO2 as a "catalyst": CO2 + H2O <---> H2CO3 (in atmospheric water clusters or liquid water in a pan) exposed to the solar spectrum. Photography has been using this "metastable" energy storage effect for almost two centuries. Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 16:53:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2U0rDtx004284; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:53:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2U0r7HW004239; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:53:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:53:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <096201c534c2$8d5b5540$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <3rr769$tata1b mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: New battery technology Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:51:04 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: > Meanwhile, I performed an unscientific Reality Check and noticed that CNN.COM has yet to report on this apparent technological breakthrough, particularly in the Technology section. We are instead presented with, ...yawn..., If you think that is curious, look what you can find on Toshiba's own site: http://www3.toshiba.co.jp/ddc/eng/lib/index.htm So... which announcement is the April Fool's joke? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 16:55:06 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2U0sntx005267; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:54:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2U0skfq005214; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:54:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:54:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=AePwJYfQOFXCqe04jIgONL2459UG3e/gkhzAF+9KwGTnqZS7TpfHxJOQR88skUbedhECnFlAnAfo0jPCZMhV/2+ZN0dNMsC3TUbFpSmFrtNDR7pzo1E+3M5fBvtg+GUs9R3TR0QjW4VqfQtmGSaeKawHAfglFJg1d6KY3A1x/5A= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:54:35 -0700 From: leaking pen Reply-To: leaking pen To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New battery technology In-Reply-To: <004b01c534bc$05e95180$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <6.2.0.14.2.20050329131847.02c4f9f8 pop.mindspring.com> <005301c5349b$cbd498d0$a27accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <6.2.0.14.2.20050329153301.02bed6a0 pop.mindspring.com> <008f01c534b5$72023780$a27accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> <004b01c534bc$05e95180$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2U0sdtx005100 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: not yet. we'll be moving over to a different economy, if this works. as for general public, links have been submitted to totalfark (a pay news site with about 2500 members that im part of) and a lot of discussion has been generated. news tends to go there from slashdot, and from there to the rest of the net. rest assured, people will know about this and some of the possible uses in 48 hours, tops. On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:04:17 -0500, revtec wrote: > It's not vaporized batteries we need to worry about, it is the power grid > and generating stations. The combined output of all of our automotive > engines may be more than the combined output of all our generating > facilities. We can't replace the nations automotive power by tapping our > electric supply. We simply don't have enough. > > Jeff > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Carrell" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 6:17 PM > Subject: Re: New battery technology > > > Jed made some good comments: > > > > Mike Carrell wrote: > > > > > > delivered to the battery in 1/12 hour, at a rate of (75)(12) = 900 kW, > which > > will vaporize the battery. > > > > Obviously if these batteries can charge 10 times faster than normal > > batteries, as advertised, they must be remarkably efficient so they do not > > produce much waste heat. > > > > MC: That doesn't follow. Fast charging batteries requires monitoring of > the > > charge state so as not to over charge, with drastic effects on the batery > > chemistry. The Toshiba design, with management circuits, may allow faster > > charging, but you are still doing work against chemical and other losses. > My > > lithium ion camera batteries take many hours on trickle charge, and about > > three hours with a fast charger, so 10% is 30 minutes, not five. In > > principle, it may be possible to dissipate the waste heat, but don't count > > on it. 900,000 watts is a lot of power. Realize that power will be > delivered > > at 12 V intially, but more like 48 volts for advanced electric > > automobiles -- it's still 18,750 amps. > > > > Most of the 900 kW would convert directly into electric potential, and > only > > about 90 kW converting to heat. That's pretty hot, but with a good > radiator > > and exhaust fan it would not vaporize the battery or cause a fire. With a > > lead-acid battery, which is 70% efficient, it would produce 200 or 300 kW, > > which *would* cause a fire. > > > > MC: Even with Jed's optimistic number, that's 90 radiant bathroom heaters > in > > your car. Designing the heat dissipation system for that is no easy task. > > > > MC: Think about this carefully, and multiply by 10 > > cars at a time. Ot think about it in a remote rural station on the road > from > > nowhere to nowhere else. > > > > Ah, but imagine the rural station equipped with buffer battery of > batteries > > (BBB). Let's say enough to charge 5 cars. This would smooth out the flow > and > > allow a reasonably small main electric feed. A huge charging station on a > > major highway with 20 charge bay slots might require a BBB large enough to > > hold a charge for ~100 cars, and an electric power main large enough to > > recharge the BBB in 2 or 3 hours. It would not need power mains capable of > > charging all 20 slots simultaneously. > > > > MC: Ah so, but no matter how you sturcture it, it is a massive problem. > Just > > as the expressway gas station has big storage tanks, fed by tanker trucks, > > one can postulate big battery piles. After a while, it begins to look like > > an electrified railway system. > > > > > > > > The Toshiba site describes hybrid engine applications: > > > > "The new battery can quickly store energy produced by locomotives and > > automobiles. This speedy and highly effective recharge characteristic of > the > > battery will support CO2 reduction, as the battery can save and re-use > > energy that was simply wasted before." > > > > MC: It sounds good, and a valuable contribution to the transition to > another > > energy structure. > > > > Mike Carrell > > > > > > > > > > -- "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" Voltaire From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 17:32:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2U1Wftx021274; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:32:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2U1WULG021224; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:32:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:32:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <32847224.1112146345304.JavaMail.root wamui02.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:32:24 -0500 (EST) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: New battery technology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2U1WPtx021186 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jeff writes: > It's not vaporized batteries we need to worry about, it is the power grid > and generating stations. The combined output of all of our automotive > engines may be more than the combined output of all our generating > facilities. It is much more than all of our generating facilities, but this is irrelevant. Automobile engines are only used for an hour or less per day, and most of the time they run at a small fraction of maximum output capacity (around ~10%). If you floored a 250 HP car and kept it floored, you would hit race-track speed in less than a minute. You would be going 150 to 200 MPH. Even on the highway you seldom need more than 40 HP. Furthermore, electric cars use two or three times less energy than ICE only (non-hybrid) automobiles. I know what I am talking about here. I am one of the few people who as actually floored the accelerator on the open highway, and left the pedal on the metal for 10 minutes or more. My 40 HP Geo Metro will hit 65 MHP on a level stretch! Even more going downhill. > We can't replace the nations automotive power by tapping our > electric supply. We simply don't have enough. We have more than enough, especially at night. Of course this would use up more fuel, or wind, as the case may be. But generating capacity would not be a problem. I do not think the power distribution network would need to be expanded much, either, except possibly along large highways. Electric vehicles are probably much more practical than people realize. Even the experts are wrong. They keep asking the public "would you be willing to drive an electric car with only a 100 mile range." Most people say no, so the auto companies have never offered one. Most people have no idea what would satify their needs, or how they might organize their lives around a new technology. A 100 mile range might be a problem for a few people, but once you learned to live with it, most people would hardly notice. They do not realize that an electric car sitting in traffic not moving uses no power (except for air conditioning.) Suppose in 1985 you were to ask people in charge of churches or the PTA: "would you be willing to purchase a computer for $1,500 knowing it fail at any moment erase all of your correspondence and your PTA financial records in an instant?" They would all say no. They would say that's a ridiculous amount of money -- we only collect $3,000 in dues per year. Yet within a few years all churches, clubs, PTAs and other organizations had computers. People came to understand the benefits. Most people learned how deal with computers, and how to back up the data. (Although the Atlanta office of Planned Parenthood -- I think it was -- recently lost all of its records when a single computer crashed.) If electric vehicles become available at a reasonable price, people would soon learn how to use them and how to live with the limitations of the present lead-acid battery technology. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 18:30:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2U2Um48016826; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:30:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2U2UlGD016815; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:30:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:30:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <16256252.1112149844806.JavaMail.root wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:30:44 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: New battery technology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell writes: > MC: To which I add, yes, of course, if they had to. When gasoline hits $5 per gallon they will have to. Many people cannot afford that. > Battery cars were used > locally in the 30s. They had a huge problem: they were much slower than gasoline cars. I think their max speed was 25 to 30 mph. They could not be used on the highways. There are no similar "make or break" limitations with today's electric cars except range, and that is only a problem for a fraction of the driving public. A traveling salesmen who drives hundreds of miles a day could not use today's electric car, obviously. But someone like me, who drives to Washington or Virginia three or four times a year, could easily adapt to owning one. I would simply rent a gasoline car (or hybrid) for those trips. I do not own a truck or an SUV, even though from time to time I need to move large, heavy objects. I can rent a truck or van at Lowes for $20, a mile away from my house. It is no harder than renting a rug shampoo machine. Most of the "problems" people imagine they would encounter with electric cars would probably turn out to be trivial. Some would turn out to advantages. People tend to see the drawbacks of alternative technology, but they are blind to problems with the technology they have now and are used to. Imagine if the U.S. were like France, and we generated 80% of our electricity with nuclear fission. Now imagine someone comes along and suggests we build thousands of coal fired plants to generate half our electricity, even thought this will kill 20,000 people, blight the air over half the country, and the mines will destroy millions of acres of spectacularly beautiful mountain country. Every citizen would rise up in outraged protest. The environmental movement would declare war. There would be demonstrations in the streets. > But as a transition from today's expectations, battery-only cars will find only a niche market . . . That is because the marketing has been so abysmally bad. Computers would still be selling ~40,000 units a year today (as they did circa 1975) if personal computer manufacturers were as inept as today's automakers. > and will not solve the oil problem. Electric cars, hybrid cars, wind power and other conventional technology could have solved the "oil problem," the pollution problem, and all of our other energy quandaries any time after 1945. A new system could have been built in 10 or 20 years back then, and it could be built in 10 or 20 years now. Hybrid cars were first patented in 1906. The solutions to these problems have been at out fingertips for nearly a century. We lack only the will and the intelligence to use them. I will grant, it would cost a lot of money at first, but it would save far more money once the job is done. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 18:58:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2U2vtdX028193; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:57:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2U2vpJ4028160; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:57:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:57:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=wB5lUHE4cBIlpDgh7XPMWZAK+BUCJx30/sc7BFdKVCMaUB8bR2Dhkkbd/XIdEsFjlVO/U7UWmXQzLspT6eg7xdWz2+nEYqxsvgz6WUcDZdgG1x9fOdd6kCEVox7yUspX2Lu/9tf713i4/Bqb6SxhrC/LCpw20yED6mRHgzSaU8M= ; Message-ID: <20050330025738.70722.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:57:38 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: New battery technology To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <3hgnfC.A.83G.uWhSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Jones Beene wrote: > So... which announcement is the April Fool's joke? http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?art=1221 "Let me repeat once again (let's cut out those enquiring emails right now) it is NOT an early April Fool’s (I hate those) and besides Toshiba said it wasn’t, so for it to change its mind now after we all got excited would be sneaky!" And: http://www.physorg.com/news3539.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 19:09:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2U39kdX000548; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:09:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2U39hgZ000507; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:09:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:09:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007501c534d5$ec9d5720$a4b1e118 D54BYG11> Reply-To: "John Coviello" From: "John Coviello" To: Subject: New battery technology Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:09:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0072_01C534AC.0373D7F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-broadbandsupportnet-MailScanner-SpamScore: s X-MailScanner-From: johnwc patmedia.net Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C534AC.0373D7F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed is right on the money with his analysis of this Toshiba battery = announcement. I noticed there was no mention of possible mileage ranges = with these new batteries. But, if they really can recharge in one = minute, then the whole range issue is a lot less significant. Even a = 200 mile range would be sufficient for long trips, if you can pull in = and recharge quickly just about anywhere. The key to electric cars is the fact that we don't need to build a whole = new infrastructure like hydrogen. The infrastructure is already in = place for electrics. We just need to install recharges, which wouldn't = be too difficult. =20 I noticed they used nanotechnology to achieve this breakthrough. It = seems like nanotech is really starting to pay some dividends in = technological advancements, especially battery and solar technology. =20 As far as the electricity supply issue. That could be dealt with. For = one thing, the technology exists today to make our coal and gas = generating stations twice as efficient than they currently are (up to = 60% efficient), this doubling of output can be done with no more input = of raw materials, and even has the side benefit of making it easier to = catch mercury and other heavy metals before they exit the stack. This = design uses the waste heat from the generation process to run it through = another generation cycle. The key to the efficiency of the = heat-scavenging system is that it uses propane vapor rather than steam = to turn a turbine and drive an electricity generator. This allows it to = be driven by low-temperature waste heat. =20 Just a thought. We can make even our power generation system much more = efficient than it currently is. The technology I discussed above is = real and practical, but not in use much yet. On the consumption side, = I'm sure we could be a lot more efficient. And, if necessary, we could = build new plants to meet the demand of electric cars. It's worth the = price for a more stable world and less pollution. ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C534AC.0373D7F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jed is right on the money with his = analysis of this=20 Toshiba battery announcement.  I noticed there was no mention = of=20 possible mileage ranges with these new batteries.  But, if they = really can=20 recharge in one minute, then the whole range issue is a lot less=20 significant.  Even a 200 mile range would be sufficient for long = trips, if=20 you can pull in and recharge quickly just about anywhere.
 
The key to electric cars is the fact = that we don't=20 need to build a whole new infrastructure like hydrogen.  The = infrastructure=20 is already in place for electrics.  We just need to install = recharges,=20 which wouldn't be too difficult.  
 
I noticed they used nanotechnology to = achieve this=20 breakthrough.  It seems like nanotech is really starting to pay = some=20 dividends in technological advancements, especially battery and solar=20 technology.  
 
As far as the=20 electricity supply issue.  That could be dealt = with.  For=20 one thing, the technology exists today to make our coal and gas = generating=20 stations twice as efficient than they currently are (up to 60% = efficient), this=20 doubling of output can be done with no more input of raw materials, and=20 even has the side benefit of making it easier to catch mercury = and=20 other heavy metals before they exit the stack.  This design uses = the waste=20 heat from the generation process to run it through another generation=20 cycle.  The key to the efficiency of the heat-scavenging = system is=20 that it uses propane vapor rather than steam to turn a turbine and drive = an=20 electricity generator. This allows it to be driven by low-temperature = waste=20 heat. 
Just a thought.  We can make = even our=20 power generation system much more efficient than it currently is.  = The=20 technology I discussed above is real and practical, but not in use much=20 yet.  On the consumption side, I'm sure we could be a lot more=20 efficient.  And, if necessary, we could build new plants to meet = the demand=20 of electric cars.  It's worth the price for a more stable world and = less=20 pollution.
------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C534AC.0373D7F0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 19:32:09 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2U3VudX014457; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:31:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2U3VsQN014440; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:31:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:31:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New battery technology X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 88d4930e78bdc62d7a0c8412b11aee8a Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20050330033139.045751BCD0 xprdmailfe23.nwk.excite.com> Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:31:39 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: <1PZL-C.A.lhD.p2hSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wouldn't such a quickly chargeable battery be able to store much more energy from regenerative braking than is currently possible? M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 19:36:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2U3aKw2017071; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:36:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2U3aClf016957; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:36:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:36:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHtfMVDfuqRUMOr30zMSTM0CuGx3RRcR7tg== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.33.204] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 03:34:31 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ...water into wine... X-Mailer: Juno Webmail Version 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050329.193512.12130.133926 webmail21.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:1:2619742631 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace- Could the water over unity phenomina be the the power of Hurricanes? ges- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 19:57:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2U3v5w2028970; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:57:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2U3v3Qu028954; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:57:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:57:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: harbinger? Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:59:24 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <090e01c534b4$c98632a0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FYI: http://snopes.com/politics/business/mondex.asp -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 5:13 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: harbinger? http://www.flickr.com/photos/28129213 N00/sets/181299 You may need this kind of thing in a few years to board an airplane... -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.5 - Release Date: 05/03/29 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 20:04:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2U43ow2032460; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:03:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2U43lFW032433; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:03:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:03:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "John Steck" To: Subject: RE: ...water into wine... Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:06:02 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20050329.193512.12130.133926 webmail21.nyc.untd.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If the poor chap didn't already go on to meet his maker (a gratuitous reference for the zealots) I would expect a spontaneous discussion of "whirl power" to emerge right about now. 8^) -j -----Original Message----- From: gesrebspar juno.com [mailto:gesrebspar@juno.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 9:35 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Horace- Could the water over unity phenomina be the the power of Hurricanes? ges- -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.5 - Release Date: 05/03/29 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Mar 29 20:08:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2U487w2002311; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:08:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2U485BQ002291; Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:08:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:08:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005301c534de$0f7afe70$7b027841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Windmill science off topic Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:07:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004F_01C534AB.C4662E50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.2 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C534AB.C4662E50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0050_01C534AB.C4662E50" ------=_NextPart_001_0050_01C534AB.C4662E50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankReading Grimer's post on the wind and the Queen's flag, I couldn't = pass up not revealing exciting news in west Texas windmill technology = as reported in the best lies told for year 1990. Seems that the wind farm generator did not meet output specs so the = factory man was called. After trying everything the manual suggested to = remedy the problems, he resorted to "makedo". He began to remove one blade at a time trying to increase efficency to = no avail. After removing all but one blade without results, he solved = the problem by taking the two top strands off the bobwire fence in order = to get enough wind. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0050_01C534AB.C4662E50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Reading Grimer's post on the wind and the = Queen's flag,=20 I couldn't pass up not revealing exciting news  in west Texas = windmill=20 technology as reported in the best lies told for year 1990.
 
Seems that the wind farm generator did not = meet output=20 specs so the  factory man was called. After trying everything the = manual=20 suggested to remedy the problems, he resorted to "makedo".
 
He began to remove one blade at a time trying = to=20 increase efficency to no avail. After removing all but one blade without = results, he solved the problem by taking the two top strands off the = bobwire=20 fence in order to get enough wind.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0050_01C534AB.C4662E50-- ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C534AB.C4662E50 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <004e01c534de$0efd9110$7b027841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C534AB.C4662E50-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 00:20:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2U8Kj87005767; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:20:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2U8KeoA005729; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:20:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:20:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:21:55 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: New battery technology Resent-Message-ID: <__dkPC.A.dZB.XFmSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:39 PM 3/29/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Horace Heffner wrote: > >>This is a significant development provided the price is right. It means >>vehicles can be charged in a manner similar to filling up on gas, and that >>home charging is also feasible. > >Home charging of electric vehicles is already feasible. I cannot imagine an >electric car design that would make it difficult or inconvenient to >recharge at home. At most you would need some sort of external transformer. Sorry I didn't make the point clear. Noting that home charging is feasible is merely meant to point out an advantage clearly not present as compared to liquid nitrogen, liquid air, home hydrogen filling, or even home methane filling, all of which require expensive equipment and which might be hazardous. > >We had a discussion electric power "filling stations" this some months ago. >When I suggested that rapid recharge batteries would allow something like a >filling station, Mike Carrell pointed out that this would require very >large capacity electric power mains to the gas station. I suppose that if >the rapid recharge batteries are reasonably cheap, a gas station could be >equipped with a bank of the batteries to smooth out demand. You have answered your own objection there. >They would only >have a problem if a solid stream of customers came, without a break, and >there was a car charging at every outlet, every minute, for several hours. >That almost never happens with ordinary gas stations, except during >emergencies such as an evacuation or when the power goes out nearly >everywhere and only one gas station is left open. Gas stations run out of >fuel during these rare events, so an overwhelmed electric charging station >would probably not be much worse than a gas station. During an evacuation, >electric cars could always be charged at emergency charging stations or at >people's houses and offices. You can set up a temporary charging station >much more easily than you can established a temporary gas station. > >The biggest problem with charging stations would be lack of customers. I >think most people would find it more convenient to recharge at home >overnight, rather than interrupt their commute. True, unless residential energy is taxed out of reach. The principle value of recharging stations is that electric vehicles are no longer limited to commuting. Assuming existing filling stations are converted to charging stations, long distance travel can be made with no significant changes to gasoline refuling habits. > >If these batteries are reasonably light, they might allow electric vehicles >with a 200 mile (300 km) range. That would be enough for nearly all travel >and commuting applications. > >There also schemes to use high-capacity capacitors for urban buses. Every >bus stop would be equipped with power mains to recharge the bus while the >passengers get on and off. This seems impractical to me. > > >>It doesn't solve the energy source problem . . . > >I think it would solve the energy source problem, at least in the US. The >US has plenty of fuel suitable for electric power generation, including >coal, uranium and wind. You are suggesting burning coal is the solution to the energy source problem?! It appears we are not talking about the same energy problem. >Also, electric cars are far more efficient than >gasoline powered model, so if all cars and trucks were replaced with >electric powered models, and all electric generators were brought up to >close to state-of-the-art efficiency (40%) overall demand for energy would >drop by ~13 quads out 101 total. Overall demand for oil would drop by ~70%. Electricity is three times as expensive as fossil fuels. A 40 percent increase in generating efficiency will just not cut it. This provides no improvement in distribution and other energy and cost overheads which cause the high price of electricity. Total demand for fossil fuels should actually increase if all vehicles are battery powered. Also, overall transportation costs will rise. They might drop temporarily until the government figures out they have to find a way to convert the gasoline tax to an electric tax. Batteries are not a source of energy. True, some energy is recovered from regenerative breaking, but transportation is only about 1/3 of the energy expenditure of the US, and the US expends only about 1/4 the world energy. Effective batteries do not solve the energy problem, even if they are cheap, light, and rechargeable without a water cooling supply in the charge connector. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 01:54:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2U9sQ87020188; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:54:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2U9sNPE020153; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:54:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:54:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050330095320.006b18e8 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:53:20 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:06 pm 29-03-05 -0800, Jones wrote: ... >If Graneau is listening here is a suggestion - try using >superchilled water at about 30,000 psi and around 126 degree >K in order to get into the water through the ice-3 or ice-9 >regime, after which there should be an enormous phase change >and double-boost on a discharge of current ! IMHO you >should get far more than the doubling of energy which you >now see - perhaps an order of magnitude more. There is a >possibility that some mixture of cryogenic water with or >without liquid air, when injected into a diesel engine, can >substitute for fossil fuel, in whole or in part. > >OK. It may be a small possibility... even minuscule, but it >deserves to be tested experimentally. To me this is the >future of nanotechnology - fuel nanotechnology which >capitalizes on the Casimir effect using cheap materials >(water and air). > >Jones Absolutely - and if the promise of the new Toshiba battery pans out successfully, it highlights the potential of the fledgling field of nano-technology. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 04:14:11 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UCE087011487; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:14:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UCDmCh011408; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:13:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:13:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: Message-ID: <1a7101c53521$e27b2000$a27accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: New battery technology Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:59:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace wrote: . > > > >There also schemes to use high-capacity capacitors for urban buses. Every > >bus stop would be equipped with power mains to recharge the bus while the > >passengers get on and off. This seems impractical to me. Not so. In Europe there have been bus systems with flywheel energy storage operating for years. Bus stops have a charging pole that can be contacted by a bus to recharge at every stop. In all the discussion about batteries, there is a case to be made for flywheel storage, which has been refined for years. The key issue is very high strength fibers for the flywheels, for the faster the flywheels can go, the higher the energy density, and it is an exponential function of the flywheel speed. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 04:19:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UCIv87013999; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:18:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UCIsuO013961; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:18:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:18:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 03:19:53 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Graneau's theory Resent-Message-ID: <2QFN0D.A.FaD.skpSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following vortex posts on the subject of Graneau may be of interest. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 5:34 PM 1/7/97, Scott Little wrote: >In the very latest issue of IE (vol 2 no 10), on page 59, there is a paper >by Peter Graneau. In the introduction he says: > >Water is a liquid because the H2O molecules attract each other. This >attraction is the basis of liquid cohesion. The energy associated with the >attracting molecules is potential energy. It was acquired from water vapor >molecules when they first condensed to rain drops. The vapor molecule is >stopped when it strikes the liquid surface of a drop. In the process the >kinetic energy of the vapor molecule is converted to binding energy in the >drop. Vapor molecules are accelerated by atmospheric heat from solar >radiation. In this way solar energy is concentrated and stored in ordinary >water. > >I know we've discussed this before but seeing it in print has gotten me >going again. Any comments on this theory? > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 5:38 PM 1/7/97, Barry Merriman wrote: >Scott Little wrote: >> >> In the very latest issue of IE (vol 2 no 10), on page 59, there is a paper >> by Peter Graneau. >> I know we've discussed this before but seeing it in print has gotten me >> going again. Any comments on this theory? >> >> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. > >Well, surely you don't need anyone to tell you these things, >but I'll be glad to provide a kneejerk, dogmatic scientific response :-) > >>In the introduction he says: >> >> Water is a liquid because the H2O molecules attract each other. > >Check. Batting 1.000 at this point. > >> The energy associated with the >> attracting molecules is potential energy. > >Check---but the potential energy "associated" is a >decrease in potential energy, >not an addition of potential energy! > >>It was acquired from water vapor >> molecules when they first condensed to rain drops. > >here we start to go truly astray---what is "acquired" is a reduction >in potential energy of the system; what was potential went >into some other form (kinetic, as in thermal motion). > > >> The vapor molecule is >> stopped when it strikes the liquid surface of a drop. > >Ok by me, although "stopped" is a little severe. > >> In the process the >> kinetic energy of the vapor molecule is converted to binding >> energy in the drop. > >This is a major error in language and/or reasoning: >the kinetic energy of >the incoming molecule is distributed to the atoms in the >droplet as thermal energy. The binding energy of the accreted molecule >also shows up also as heat in the droplet, just as when you >drop a stone into a well its "binding energy" (decrease in >potential---gravitational in this analogy) shows up in the >motion of the well water. > >> Vapor molecules are accelerated by atmospheric heat from solar >> radiation. > >True enough, i.e. the atmospheric heat energy is what >lifts them out of the potential well they are in. > > >> In this way solar energy is concentrated and stored in ordinary >> water. > >Say what? AS the previous sentence suggests, solar energy is stored >in the latent heat of vaporization; if you get the vaop to condense, >you get it back as heat. So? It is not news to anyone that you get >heat by condensing vaoprs, or other phase changes. > > >-- >Barry Merriman >Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program >Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math >email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 9:56 AM 1/8/97, Dieter Britz wrote: >On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Scott Little wrote: > >> In the very latest issue of IE (vol 2 no 10), on page 59, there is a paper >> by Peter Graneau. In the introduction he says: >> >> Water is a liquid because the H2O molecules attract each other. This >> attraction is the basis of liquid cohesion. The energy associated with the >> attracting molecules is potential energy. It was acquired from water vapor >> molecules when they first condensed to rain drops. The vapor molecule is >> stopped when it strikes the liquid surface of a drop. In the process the >> kinetic energy of the vapor molecule is converted to binding energy in the >> drop. Vapor molecules are accelerated by atmospheric heat from solar >> radiation. In this way solar energy is concentrated and stored in ordinary >> water. >> >> I know we've discussed this before but seeing it in print has gotten me >> going again. Any comments on this theory? > >Yes: He's got it the wrong way around. Potential energy comes about when you >do work to separate two water molecules; you can get it back when you let >them get together again. When a speeding water vapour molecule - having been >heated by the sun - hits liquid water, it is in a state of high potential >energy with respect to its state in liquid water. When it joins the other >liquid molecules, some heat is released due to the bond being formed and the >heat it had is also given to the water. When steam condenses into water, >heat is given off; when water evaporates, the water is cooled. So >condensation into water is a way of storing the Sun's heat ONLY in the sense >that the heat picked up by the vapour is given to the liquid and heat >transport from a liquid is slower than from a vapour, so the liquid acts as >a temporary store or, if you like, a slow heat leak. The bonding between the >water molecules is unfavourable in this context, it is NOT a store of heat >but the reverse. > >If I remember it rightly, the bonding is electrostatic, water being polarised >slightly. There is some short-range order, sort of crystalline, but its extent >is limited by the jiggling of the molecules because of their heat. The less >they jiggle, the better they can join up, and when you get to the freezing >point, they can do it right through the body. > >Graneau should have read some books on water structure before writing the >piece. Whether his error impinges on the rest of his piece, I can't of course >say. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >| Dieter Britz alias britz kemi.aau.dk | >| Kemisk Institut, Aarhus Universitet, 8000 Aarhus C, Denmark. | >| Telephone: +45-89423874 (8:30-17:00 weekdays); fax: +45-86196199 | >| http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~britz | >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 11:42 PM 1/8/97, John Logajan wrote: >Barry Merriman wrote: >> the potential energy "associated" is a decrease in potential energy, >> not an addition of potential energy! > >I presume this to be the case, but it is at least theoretically possible >for some chemical processes to be endothermic rather than exothermic. > >An unrelated oddity in water is that it expands upon freezing, which is >counter-intuitive. > >So an empirical result would over-rule an intuitive or even theoretical >expectation. However, I'd be rather surprised that no one until now has >noticed the endothermic nature of water condensation. In fact, it is >my general understanding that the evidence suggests the contrary. (i.e. >evaporation seems to be endothermic.) > >-- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - > - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 11:42 PM 1/8/97, John Logajan wrote: >Barry Merriman wrote: >> the potential energy "associated" is a decrease in potential energy, >> not an addition of potential energy! > >I presume this to be the case, but it is at least theoretically possible >for some chemical processes to be endothermic rather than exothermic. > >An unrelated oddity in water is that it expands upon freezing, which is >counter-intuitive. > >So an empirical result would over-rule an intuitive or even theoretical >expectation. However, I'd be rather surprised that no one until now has >noticed the endothermic nature of water condensation. In fact, it is >my general understanding that the evidence suggests the contrary. (i.e. >evaporation seems to be endothermic.) > >-- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - > - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 2:23 PM 2/12/97, Scott Little wrote: >Howdy Vortexans, > >Peter Graneau asked me to pose this question to the group: > >"Condensation of water vapor is supposed to be an exothermic process. This >means the condensing of vapor molecules should heat (increase the >temperature of) the water with which they combine. I have been unable to >find any calorimetric data which confirms this. Do you know where I can >find it?" > >Any info on this matter would be appreciated...I will forward it to Graneau. > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 2:57 PM 2/12/97, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: >>Condensation of water vapor is supposed to be an exothermic process. > > Yes. > >>This means the condensing of vapor molecules should heat (increase the >>temperature of) the water with which they combine. > > No. Heat and temperature are not the same thing. The vapor is slightly >hotter (temperature) than the liquid, which is necessary so that HEAT FLOWS >INTO THE WATER. Depending on the system, this heat then can raise the >liquid temperature, which will halt further condensation unless the vapor >temperature is raised by some outside source. Or else one might remove the >heat from the liquid, say by an immersed heat exchange coil and stirring, >in order to prevent the liquid temperature rise. In this case heat flows >to the heat exchanger, which must be at a slightly lower temperature than >the liquid in order to accomplish such a heat flow. To summarize, the >definition of exothermic or endothermic rests on the DIRECTION OF HEAT >FLOW, not temperature difference. > >>I have been unable to find any calorimetric data which confirms this. > > Of course. Thermodynamics deals with infinitessimally slow processes, >which means that all components of the system are ideally at the SAME >TEMPERATURE. Therefore, thermodynamic tables are constructed from data >taken in systems that are ISOTHERMAL to within some small experimental >error. > >>Do you know where I can find it? > > From the discussion above, the answer is clearly, "Nowhere." Such data >would be in contradiction with the definition of thermodynamic data. > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 6:42 PM 2/12/97, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >Scott Little wrote: >> >> Howdy Vortexans, >> >> Peter Graneau asked me to pose this question to the group: >> >> "Condensation of water vapor is supposed to be an exothermic process. This >> means the condensing of vapor molecules should heat (increase the >> temperature of) the water with which they combine. I have been unable to >> find any calorimetric data which confirms this. Do you know where I can >> find it?" > >Scott, what's wrong with the clasic steam tables of Keenan & Keyes? >Of course, these tabbles present data "at thermal equilibrium" and so >can say nothing about RATES of condensation or evaporation. In a real >process, the liquid molecules are leaving the interface to vapor at the >same rate vapor molecules are going the other way - IF the vapor and >liquid are isothermal. If the liquid is subcooled a slight amount >(by removing heat) more vapor molecules condense to liquid than >evaporate. The main idea is that there needs to be a constant heat >flow out of the liquid to support a constant rate of vapor condensation. >I think the steam table data, then, represents the situation in which >an INFITESIMAL amount of liquid subcooling causes an INFITESIMAL rate >of NET vapor condensation. I probably don't understand just what it is >that Graneau is looking at. > >Frank Stenger - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 7:53 PM 2/12/97, William Beaty wrote: >On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Scott Little wrote: > >> "Condensation of water vapor is supposed to be an exothermic process. This >> means the condensing of vapor molecules should heat (increase the >> temperature of) the water with which they combine. I have been unable to >> find any calorimetric data which confirms this. Do you know where I can >> find it?" > >One problem is that temperature difference causes net condensation, rather >than the reverse. > >But I think there are added effects which make the situation complex. For >example, small droplets have different equilibrium values than large. And >depending on the amount of non-equilibrium, chaotic dynamics appears and >diffusion-limited aggregations appear (at least in regelation, I don't >know if this impacts condensation effects.) I've always wondered if this >has something to do with surface energy. Similar things occur with >crystallization, where clefts in crystals tend to grow faster than points. >Electrolytic "electropolishing" takes advantage of this. Perhaps there is >literature somewhere about surface physics that will have the answers. > > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 11:45 PM 2/12/97, Scott Little wrote: >At 02:57 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Mike S wrote: > >>>This means the condensing of vapor molecules should heat (increase the >>>temperature of) the water with which they combine. >> >> No. Heat and temperature are not the same thing. The vapor is slightly >>hotter (temperature) than the liquid, which is necessary so that HEAT FLOWS >>INTO THE WATER. > >I get your point, Mike, but couldn't you have a system in which vapor and >liquid were both present at the same temp, then raise the pressure to force >vapor to condense and heat up the liquid? > >>>Do you know where I can find it? >> >> From the discussion above, the answer is clearly, "Nowhere." Such data >>would be in contradiction with the definition of thermodynamic data. > >Perhaps we're just getting tangled up in thermo-terminology (which is easy >to do!) Surely you aren't saying that it is impossible to measure the heat >of condensation of water? I think that is all that Graneau is asking >for...actual calorimetric data on that measurement. > > > - Scott Little > EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 > 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) > http://www.eden.com/~little - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 11:45 PM 2/12/97, Scott Little wrote: >At 05:13 PM 2/12/97 -0600, RIchard Hall wrote: >> >>Isn't it the same but opposite as the heat of vaporization? > >I would think so, but perhaps Graneau is looking for evidence that the heat >liberated when water condenses is different from that required to vaporize >it. In any case, he would like to find some actual calorimetric >measurements of this heat. > > > - Scott Little > EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 > 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) > http://www.eden.com/~little - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 8:53 AM 2/13/97, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: >>At 02:57 PM 2/12/97 -0800, Mike S wrote: >> >>>>This means the condensing of vapor molecules should heat (increase the >>>>temperature of) the water with which they combine. >>> >>> No. Heat and temperature are not the same thing. The vapor is slightly >>>hotter (temperature) than the liquid, which is necessary so that HEAT FLOWS >>>INTO THE WATER. >> >>I get your point, Mike, but couldn't you have a system in which vapor and >>liquid were both present at the same temp, then raise the pressure to force >>vapor to condense and heat up the liquid? > > This is another way. It gets even more complicated once you remove the >condition of infinitessimal slowness; then it becomes a kinetic or rate >problem. But you will never find that in THERMODYNAMIC tables, which >always deal with systems changing so slowly that they are very nearly in >perfect equilibrium. > >>>>Do you know where I can find it? >>> >>> From the discussion above, the answer is clearly, "Nowhere." Such data >>>would be in contradiction with the definition of thermodynamic data. >> >>Perhaps we're just getting tangled up in thermo-terminology (which is easy >>to do!) Surely you aren't saying that it is impossible to measure the heat >>of condensation of water? I think that is all that Graneau is asking >>for...actual calorimetric data on that measurement. > > I think Graneau's question was motivated by his statement: "I have been >unable to find any calorimetric data which confirms this." I think he >means data that would prove his hypothesis. IMHO, from reading his recent >paper on this subject, I think Graneau does not understand thermodynamics, >so any discussion with him on this subject will get interminably bogged >down. > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 5:32 PM 2/13/97, Robert G. Flower wrote: >On 12 Feb 97 at 14:23, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > >> Peter Graneau asked me to pose this question to the group: >> >> "Condensation of water vapor is supposed to be an exothermic >> process. This means the condensing of vapor molecules should heat >> (increase the temperature of) the water with which they combine. I >> have been unable to find any calorimetric data which confirms this. >> Do you know where I can find it?" >> >> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > > > >> From: "Francis J. Stenger" >> Scott, what's wrong with the clasic steam tables of Keenan & Keyes? > > >A good starting point! > >"Thermodynamic Properties of Steam" >Joseph H. Keenan and Frederick G. Keyes, >John Wiley & Sons. > >was compiled at MIT, where Dr. Graneau himself worked recently. >According to the book's Introduction (pp. 11 - 26 in the edition of >1936), the data on which these tables are based include: > >- U.S. Nat'l. Bureau of Standards Journal of Research, v. 10, p. 155 >(1933). > >- 3rd Int'l. Steam Table Conference, Mech, Engnr., vol. 57, p. 710 >(1935). > >- measurements by Osborne, Mech. Engnr., vol. 57, p. 162 (1935) > >- plus another 2 pages of refs. > > >Heat of Condensation (which "should" equal Heat of Vaporization, >going in the opposite direction) is usually taken to mean the >difference between the specific enthalpies (h), at constant pressure, >of the saturated vapor and the saturated liquid, all at a specified >temperature. > >Example from K&K table: >at 212 deg F (where saturation pressure = 14.7 psia): >sat. vapor: h = 1150.4 BTU/lbm >sat. liquid: h = 180.1 BTU/lbm >difference: h = 970.3 BTU/lbm = 534 cal/gm > >Example 2: >at 70 deg F (where saturation pressure = 0.4 psia): >sat. vapor: h = 1092.3 BTU/lbm >sat. liquid: h = 38.04 BTU/lbm >difference: h = 1054.3 BTU/lbm > > >Also, lots of interesting data on water is found in: > >"Water -- A Comprehensive Treatise" [6 volumes] >Felix Franks, ed. >Plenum Press. 1972 - 1976 >[maybe a newer edition came out in the 1980's ?] > > > >Best regards, >Bob Flower > >======================================================= >Robert G. Flower, Applied Science Associates >Quality Control Engineering >Instrumentation Systems - Technology Transfer >======================================================= Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 04:19:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UCJ687014065; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:19:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UCIx1H014007; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:18:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:18:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 03:20:10 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: New battery technology Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The quote below, seemingly attributed to me, is actually from Jed. At 6:59 AM 3/30/5, Mike Carrell wrote: >Horace wrote: >. >> > >> >There also schemes to use high-capacity capacitors for urban buses. Every >> >bus stop would be equipped with power mains to recharge the bus while the >> >passengers get on and off. This seems impractical to me. > >Not so. In Europe there have been bus systems with flywheel energy storage >operating for years. Bus stops have a charging pole that can be contacted by >a bus to recharge at every stop. > >In all the discussion about batteries, there is a case to be made for >flywheel storage, which has been refined for years. The key issue is very >high strength fibers for the flywheels, for the faster the flywheels can go, >the higher the energy density, and it is an exponential function of the >flywheel speed. > >Mike Carrell Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 04:29:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UCT787023976; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:29:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UCT4W8023934; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:29:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:29:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <005501c53523$3347d400$6401a8c0 msns.flt.ptd.net> From: "revtec" To: References: Subject: Re: New battery technology Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:22:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 3:21 AM Subject: Re: New battery technology > Batteries are not a source of energy. True, some energy is recovered from > regenerative breaking, but transportation is only about 1/3 of the energy > expenditure of the US, and the US expends only about 1/4 the world energy. > Effective batteries do not solve the energy problem, even if they are > cheap, light, and rechargeable without a water cooling supply in the charge > connector. We still need PAGD powered cars that will recharge the batteries on the fly and not draw power from our other sources. So far I can't do it, the Correas won't do it, and I don't know of anyone else trying. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 04:41:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UCfj87002844; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:41:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UCffeB002791; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:41:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:41:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 03:42:50 -0900 To: "Vortex" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:21 PM 3/29/5, Keith Nagel wrote: >We're all talking about this, but have any of >you found and read the actual paper? Just what the hell _is_ a cold >fog accelerator anyway??? The mind boggles at such an >exotic piece of kit (wink). I apparently was under the false impression I had read this article. I think I have confused it with the material published by Graneau in IE, Vol 2, No 10, p. 59. I think the statements I have made recently and the 1997 vortex material I posted was based on an older version of Peter Graneau's theory. I have the impression he has since decided the energy comes elimination of the electron shielding between the nuclei that is represented by the molecular bond. He thus implies that ionization of the molecule releases energy in the form of the repulsion that occurs when like charged nuclei repel, and thus that the energy to remove the electron sheilding from the bond is less than that released when the bond is formed. In other words, ionization of a molecule's constituants requires less energy than that released when the molecule is formed from a plasma. It would be very useful if someone who has access to the paper would summarize "Arc-liberated chemical energy exceeds electrical input energy", Journal of Plasma Physics, Vol.63, part 2, p.115 (2000). Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 04:59:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UCxi87014766; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:59:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UCxfwq014735; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:59:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:59:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:00:50 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:34 PM 3/29/5, gesrebspar juno.com wrote: >Horace- Could the water over unity phenomina be the the power of > Hurricanes? ges- I don't understand why this is addressed to me as opposed to vortex in general. I don't in fact know there does or does not exist a true overunity phenomenon associated with water, other than nuclear fusion, if you consider that over unity. However, on the subject of possible overunity hurricane behavior, there were a number of very interesting posts on vortex some years back by Lawrence E Wharton: which you might be able to find at www.escribe.com/science/vortex. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 05:28:52 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UDSi87025763; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:28:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UDSbr8025701; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:28:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:28:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:29:55 -0900 To: "Vortex" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:21 PM 3/29/5, Keith Nagel wrote: >Just what the hell _is_ a cold >fog accelerator anyway??? The mind boggles at such an >exotic piece of kit (wink). Maybe not so exotic. Check out: Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 06:02:01 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UE1m87008642; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:01:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UE1iYA008613; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:01:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:01:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:02:57 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58775 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:31 PM 3/29/5, Grimer wrote: >At 06:45 am 29-03-05 -0900, Horace wrote: > >> At 12:40 AM 3/29/5, Grimer wrote: > >---------------------------------------------------------- >>> You of all people, Horace, should be well aware of that >>> since I took the trouble to mail the relevant research >>> publications to your northern eerie. > > >> The stuff you mailed me did not appear to provide >> any more information than what you already posted. > > >That's not true. I mailed you the original published >papers which obviously provided far more information >than any post I sent to Vortex. >---------------------------------------------------------- > >> Most importantly, it did not provide the numerical >> data to which you say a power-law fit is implied. > >Of course it didn't. No publication would have accepted >the reams of numerical data set out it the International >Critical Tables. > >But the Southampton paper gave a reference to the >International Critical tables and anyone who doubted the >experimental fit had only to look them up and check for >themselves. The whole strength of the power curve evidence >was the fact it was based on completely independent and >extremely detailed data of unquestioned authenticity which >was available to anybody and everybody, and had been for >yonks. > > >> Unfortunately Chaplin does not provide the numerical >> data either. > > >For exactly the same reason as I didn't. >You disappoint me, Horace. 8-( The feeling is mutual. 8^) You propose a theory that depends on a curve fit, yet you do not provide the data, nor correlation inormation, nor a fit comparison to any other theory. Your confirmation appears to merely be based upon "eyeballing" a log-log graph, which is notorious for data distortion. The plots I recall were not straight line, so a pure power law is possibly not the best fit. A polynomial fit would probably be better. I take it you want me to do all the leg work and go to the expense to dig up the data? Not likely any time soon. I have a full agenda. >---------------------------------------------------------- > > >---------------------------------------------------------- >>> Let me explain with a simple example which everybody >>> can follow. >>> >>> Consider a tank of water with the following items in >>> suspension half way up the column. A thin spherical >>> glass christmas decoration strung to a lead weight. >>> Cut the string and the lead weight falls to the bottom >>> of the tank - your "deeper energy well". But what >>> happens to the glass ball. That doesn't fall to the >>> bottom of the tank, does it! It rises to the top of >>> the hill, the surface of the water in the tank. > > >> Where is the free energy cycle in this? How is this >> analogous? The > analogy falls down in that here >> it takes energy to form the bond and energy >> is released when the bond is broken. > > >Clearly, you haven't even begun to grasp the concept of >positive and negative strain energy, so unsurprisingly, >the analogy is no help. Clearly then your example is not as simple as you claimed. Again, I ask, where is the free energy cycle in this? How is this analogous? >---------------------------------------------------------- > >---------------------------------------------------------- >>> The Graneaus are spot on in their contention that >>> energy is stored in inter-molecular bonds. > >> But, the Graneaus do not contend that energy is stored >> in all chemical bonds, not even in all H2O bonds. Energy >> is only stored in *selected* H2O bonds after exposure to >> sunlight. > >I don't think there is any point in pursuing that one >any further since you have failed to address the question >of a hierarchy of negative and positive strain energy and >until you do - you are not going to understand my views. Not my job. I have no obligation to address any of your issues, to understand your views, nor to conform my world view to yours. 8^) It is you who trolled for the discourse. It is your theory. If you still think you can provide a simple analogy then let's see it. >---------------------------------------------------------- > > > >---------------------------------------------------------- >>>Anyway, I don't believe re-energising has anything to do >>>with the sun or any other more exotic explanation. >> >> >>Citing Graneau doesn't make this case though. > > >Obviously, since I am claiming that Graneau is >mistaken on this point. Actually, I now think Graneau may have shifted from his free energy from condensation-evaporation cycle explanation to a plasma condensation-ionization cycle explanation. At least that avoids having the unpleasant job of reconciling theory with existing steam tables, etc. >---------------------------------------------------------- > >---------------------------------------------------------- >> Since using the Graneau approach there is no repeatable >> closed cycle, the >COP is small, and the input is in the >> form of expensive electrical energy, >there are some serious >> hurdles remaining to jump to obtain a practical >> device. > > >Absolutely. But let's not be party poopers. I seem to recall a song that says every party needs one! 8^) >Let's try to >look on the bright side and believe that the difficulties >can be overcome. I do. 8-) >---------------------------------------------------------- > >---------------------------------------------------------- >>> In other words, if we can recognise that water is a >>> fuel just like petrol - only a bit different - then >>> as far as I am concerned we have achieved >>> "...water into wine..." 8-) > > >> Unfortunately, it is not only recognition or belief >> that is required. A practical device is required. > > >I couldn't agree more. A practical device is indeed >required. You can't turn water into wine without stone >jars to put it in. But you are never going to develop a >practical device without belief. Forty years of scientific >research has taught me that the stronger that belief, >the more likely you are to succeed. >--------------------------------------------------------- Scientific research should not be biased by belief systems, though of course it is. It is a search for truth, whatever the answers might be. I certainly do agree that engineering and invention on the other hand require extreme faith that what is attempted might be possible. Also, it takes a big ego to tackle a big job, and I do appreciate that it is really tough to maintain such an ego and such faith when continually attempting the nearly impossible. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 06:27:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UERF87022531; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:27:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UERB0u022507; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:27:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:27:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:28:29 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Conjecture: microwaving degassed deionized water is just as effective as exposing it to sunlight for the purposes of increasing energy yield when exploding it in a Graneau style gun. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 07:15:13 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UFEw87017053; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:15:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UFEkuA016962; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:14:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:14:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050330095404.02bab298 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:05:08 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: New battery technology In-Reply-To: <20050330033139.045751BCD0 xprdmailfe23.nwk.excite.com> References: <20050330033139.045751BCD0 xprdmailfe23.nwk.excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_309421==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58777 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_309421==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Michael Foster wrote: >Wouldn't such a quickly chargeable battery be >able to store much more energy from regenerative >braking than is currently possible? These batteries are apparently more efficient (meaning they generate less waste heat when they recharge) so they would do a better job of regenerative braking. However, regenerative braking already works fine with lead-acid batteries. They discharge quickly enough to drive the car engines at high speed, and apparently they also recharge quickly enough to absorb kinetic energy at high speeds. The point that Mike Carrell has made about a very rapid recharge is that it would require the batteries to absorb energy much faster than they ever discharge it. Suppose you have a car with a 200 mile range that recharges in six minutes. The batteries have to absorb enough energy in six minutes to drive the engine at top speed for three hours, a 30:1 difference (900 hp in, 30 hp out). This is much more demanding than regenerative braking. 30 hp, by the way, seems a little low even for a lightweight electric car, based on the performance of my 40 HP Geo Metro. I think you need more like 70 to 100 HP, even with a light, aerodynamic car. The Honda Insight has a 73 hp engine and a 10 kW electric motor. The Toyota Prius has 110 hp, gasoline-electric combined. See: http://eartheasy.com/live_hybrid_cars.htm - Jed --=====================_309421==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Michael Foster wrote:


Wouldn't such a quickly chargeable battery be
able to store much more energy from regenerative
braking than is currently possible?

These batteries are apparently more efficient (meaning they generate less waste heat when they recharge) so they would do a better job of regenerative braking. However, regenerative braking already works fine with lead-acid batteries. They discharge quickly enough to drive the car engines at high speed, and apparently they also recharge quickly enough to absorb kinetic energy at high speeds.

The point that Mike Carrell has made about a very rapid recharge is that it would require the batteries to absorb energy much faster than they ever discharge it. Suppose you have a car with a 200 mile range that recharges in six minutes. The batteries have to absorb enough energy in six minutes to drive the engine at top speed for three hours, a 30:1 difference (900 hp in, 30 hp out). This is much more demanding than regenerative braking.

30 hp, by the way, seems a little low even for a lightweight electric car, based on the performance of my 40 HP Geo Metro. I think you need more like 70 to 100 HP, even with a light, aerodynamic car. The Honda Insight has a 73 hp engine and a 10 kW electric motor. The Toyota Prius has 110 hp, gasoline-electric combined. See:

http://eartheasy.com/live_hybrid_cars.htm

- Jed
 --=====================_309421==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 07:17:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UFHg87018640; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:17:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UFHcO5018603; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:17:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:17:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <3rr0ks$olggv0 mxip05a.cluster1.charter.net> X-Ironport-AV: i="3.91,134,1110171600"; d="scan'208"; a="827868128:sNHT924329706" X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: CC: Subject: Re: New battery technology Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:17:28 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=____1112195848481_qzw-N9GiLE" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=____1112195848481_qzw-N9GiLE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would speculate that Toshiba headquarters knowing that their R&D teams were working on the promising nano battery designs made the decision to discontinue the more conventional lithium-ion technology more than a year ago. They knew that if their R&D teams proved successful conventional batteries sales would likely be toast, so you might as well dump them now in preparation of the brave new world. It's a bit disconcerting from the perspective of an outsider, not knowing what internal strategies were in the process of being playing out. I bet headquarters made the decision to dump the convention lithium battery the second they were fully convinced the new nano batteries were economically feasible to build and sell. Mike, Jed, how much of a corporate "secret" was this? Strategically speaking, would this R&D have been kept completely under corporate wraps, or would it have been possible to have acquired an inkling of what was about to unfold it if one had been savvy enough to have read the right technical journals? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson OrionWorks.com ------=____1112195848481_qzw-N9GiLE Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: null; name="reply" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="reply" DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogPG9yaW9ud29ya3NAY2hh cnRlci5uZXQ+DQoNCj4gTWVhbndoaWxlLCBJIHBlcmZvcm1lZCBhbiB1bnNjaWVudGlmaWMg UmVhbGl0eSBDaGVjayBhbmQNCm5vdGljZWQgdGhhdCBDTk4uQ09NIGhhcyB5ZXQgdG8gcmVw b3J0IG9uIHRoaXMgYXBwYXJlbnQNCnRlY2hub2xvZ2ljYWwgYnJlYWt0aHJvdWdoLCBwYXJ0 aWN1bGFybHkgaW4gdGhlIFRlY2hub2xvZ3kNCnNlY3Rpb24uIFdlIGFyZSBpbnN0ZWFkIHBy ZXNlbnRlZCB3aXRoLCAuLi55YXduLi4uLA0KDQoNCklmIHlvdSB0aGluayB0aGF0IGlzIGN1 cmlvdXMsIGxvb2sgd2hhdCB5b3UgY2FuIGZpbmQgb24NClRvc2hpYmEncyBvd24gc2l0ZToN Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3czLnRvc2hpYmEuY28uanAvZGRjL2VuZy9saWIvaW5kZXguaHRtDQoNCg0K U28uLi4gd2hpY2ggYW5ub3VuY2VtZW50IGlzIHRoZSBBcHJpbCBGb29sJ3Mgam9rZT8NCg0K DQo= ------=____1112195848481_qzw-N9GiLE-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 07:31:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UFV887026855; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:31:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UFV2mb026799; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:31:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:31:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <424AC638.3000908 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:31:04 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Graneau's theory References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58779 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >The following vortex posts on the subject of Graneau may be of interest. > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >At 5:34 PM 1/7/97, Scott Little wrote: > > >>In the very latest issue of IE (vol 2 no 10), on page 59, there is a paper >>by Peter Graneau. In the introduction he says: >> >>Water is a liquid because the H2O molecules attract each other. This >>attraction is the basis of liquid cohesion. The energy associated with the >>attracting molecules is potential energy. >> Uh huh. And in liquid water that potential energy is negative, not positive, if we assume it starts at ~0 in the gas phase. This whole discussion of binding energy seems very strange -- the atoms start out at the top of the slope, and when they aggregate into molecules, they slide down the slope and give up energy; you never pump energy _in_ to get them to stick together! When molecules get together in a liquid, they slide farther down the slope; again, energy is given up. To get energy out of chemical bonds you need to replace them with other chemical bonds which are farther "down the slope". To get energy out of a liquid you need to replace it with a different phase which is also farther downslope. >>It was acquired from water vapor >>molecules when they first condensed to rain drops. >> At that point they gave it up -- the potential energy turned into kinetic energy. >>The vapor molecule is >>stopped when it strikes the liquid surface of a drop. In the process the >>kinetic energy of the vapor molecule is converted to binding energy in the >>drop. >> But this is, like, backwards, isn't it? You _gain_ kinetic energy when the molecules join up, you don't lose it! Otherwise sweating, which runs the process backwards, would make you hotter. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 07:37:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UFb987031706; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:37:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UFarpO031429; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:36:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:36:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050330102624.02c221c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:36:22 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Widespread use of hybrid cars has already improved battery technology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58780 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://eartheasy.com/live_hybrid_cars.htm Quote: "About hybrid car batteries (This information from Toyota) - Lab data for the hybrid battery shows the equivalent of 180,000 miles (289,681 km) with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle. Battery technology continues to improve: the second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well. Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36% and are expected to continue to drop so that by the time replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the Prius went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for wear and tear." This is predictable. Before hybrid cars were introduced, millions of dollars were invested in battery technology, but little progress was made. Now that we have actual vehicles on the road, and companies are selling hundreds of thousands of electric vehicles per year, the motivation and rewards for improvements to heavy duty vehicle batteries are much greater. If a breakthrough can be made, it will be made. Apparently, the maintenance cost of batteries already rivals that of gasoline motors, even though gasoline motors have been in intensive use for nearly 100 years. A gasoline engine cannot go 180,000 without a major overhaul. (I just spent $4,000 on one, in fact.) The introduction of new technology often spurs progress, perhaps because people take a fresh look, or perhaps because younger researchers become involved. Around 1958, a researcher reported that after 6 years they had already made more progress with transistor amplifiers than they had made in 50 years with vacuum tubes. They also had a better grasp of the basic physics. If CF can be commercialized, I expect there will be more progress in heat engines in the 20 years that follow than there has been in the last hundred years, and I am sure there will be much more progress in thermoelectric chips. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 08:09:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UG8x87020945; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:09:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UG8sqV020895; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:08:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:08:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050330160750.006c64cc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:07:50 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58781 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Further googling on Graneau "cold fog" has turned up this interesting paragraph ========================================================== http://www.df.lth.se/~snorkelf/Longitudinal/node3.html The production of fog and mist has made Peter and Neal Graneau suggest that the chemical bonding energy may be altered. Recent measurements also indicate that the energy released substantially exceeds the energy supplied by the arc [28, 29]. Their theory is that the bonding energy of very small droplets may be less (i.e. more negative) than that of liquid water. The difference in energy would then be released during the conversion into fog. Investigations indicate that only the smallest droplets explode, a fact supporting the theory. ========================================================== Years ago I carried out a lot of research on glass fibre used as a reinforcement. As most Vorts will know, glass can't be used as a reinforcement on the macro-scale because it is full of surface cracks which weaken it disastrously. By drawing it out into a fibre the probability of a crack in a given length is reduced to negligible proportions. Indeed, one might view the development of glass fibre having micro-metre diameters a precursor to the science of nano-technology. 8-) This suggests that the importance of droplet size is in its relevance to the presence or absence of internal defects - cf. manufacture of chips (silicon not potato(e)). Interestingly enough, the requirement for explosion of a "water bomb" is the inverse of the requirement for the explosion of a fission bomb. Now bulk water might be considered the dynamic equivalent of bulk glass. With a material containing multiple cracks failure consists of multiple internal crack propagation and the and the kinetic energy is contained and rapidly degraded to heat. Gravel concrete exhibits just such behaviour. Internal cracking propagation is very great all that way up to the point of maximum stress. Given a stiff enough testing machine the cracking continues in a controlled fashion all the way now the negative stress strain slope. In short, the concrete exhibits quasi-ductile behaviour. Such concretes are heterogeneous in their stress strain properties. At the macro level of structure they may be described as a hard aggregate in a soft matrix. These concretes are characterized by relatively high power stress strain curves, between 2.5 and 3.1 say, with the power being measured from the point of maximum stress as origin. With lightweight concretes where aggregate and matrix have the same stiffness, stress-strain curve power is only just above one. Hardly any internal cracking occurs up to the point of failure which cannot be controlled even by an infinitely stiff testing machine. This is because the specimen is its own testing machine, so to speak and one region of the specimen which is slightly stronger will offload its strain into a neigbouring section which is slightly weaker. Given the above analysis it is clear that the requirements for maximising the kinetic energy of cold fog explosions are similar to the maximization of the yield of defect free silicon chips, i.e. purity and homogeneity of the water so that the droplet structures are as identical in size and as homogeneous in structure as possible. I would be surprised if the same kind of considerations don't apply to the achievement of successful cold fusion as well (cf. Mizuno's use of sintered specimens. Ideally one needs to prepare droplets just above the critical size and then explode them by a change in the environment. One can imagine this as being carried out on a continuous basis in as jet engine say. Come to think of it I seem to have read somewhere that they found injecting water into jet engines improved the performance - a case of harnessing the Beta-atmosphere without even realising it perhaps. Can anyone remember the reference? Cheers. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 09:04:46 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UH4a87017172; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:04:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UH4OYb017113; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:04:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:04:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHtfMVDfuqRUMUmroZqkEBx1XDh+w9lupMA== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.32.105] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:02:56 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Widespread use of hybrid cars has already improved battery techno logy X-Mailer: Juno Webmail Version 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050330.090341.7955.141863 webmail18.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 5:2:3991381084 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58782 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed- I don't know where you got this info that auto engines can't last more than 180,000 miles. I drove a dodge diplomat V8 for 267,000 miles without an overhaul- the famous 318ci engine. I drove a mazda 4cy. pickup for 215,000 miles - I had to junk because the body was falling off the frame because of corrision. I drove a ford ranger 4liter V6 for 237,000 miles. sold it to my son inlaw -he drove for 2more years and 20,000 plus miles - had to junk it from something catching on fire under the hood. Note all the above vehicles were bought new and maintained by me-never took them back to dealer. changed oil and oil filter every 5,000 miles, did my own tune ups every 50,000 miles.-Ges From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 09:07:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UH7a87019262; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:07:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UH7Nes019110; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:07:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:07:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: GUNT6dKCgH8aoKLPKyRSHtfMVDfuqRUMCBJtiBoF8XS/7A78AQmW8g== X-Originating-IP: [4.88.32.105] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "gesrebspar juno.com" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:06:40 GMT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: ...water into wine... X-Mailer: Juno Webmail Version 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050330.090657.7955.141922 webmail18.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 1:1:1837725464 Resent-Message-ID: <94VW0C.A.LqE.IztSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank- Water injection was used for the afterburnners.-Ges From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 09:27:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UHR387029331; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:27:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UHQwD5029249; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:26:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:26:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050330121359.02c411e8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:26:04 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Widespread use of hybrid cars has already improved battery . . . In-Reply-To: <20050330.090341.7955.141863 webmail18.nyc.untd.com> References: <20050330.090341.7955.141863 webmail18.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_8245656==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58784 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_8245656==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed gesrebspar juno.com wrote: >Jed- I don't know where you got this info that auto engines can't last >more than 180,000 miles. I did not say they cannot last, I said they need an overhaul. Mine did, anyway. > I drove a dodge diplomat V8 for 267,000 miles without an overhaul- the > famous 318ci engine. That is remarkable. Most manufacturers say you need an overhaul at about 120,000 miles, I believe. It costs anywhere from $2000-$4000. I think that is roughly as much as the new batteries in the hybrid cars will cost. The point is, when hybrid cars were introduced, some auto industry columnists fretted that battery costs were unknown, and that over the life of the car the cost of the batteries might be very substantial. Now that hundreds of thousands of these cars are in use, we see that is not the case. Industry observers and people who oppose progress also said that recycling the batteries might be an environmental problem. No doubt recycling must be dealt with properly, but it hardly begins to compare to the environmental problems caused by conventional gasoline motors. Incidentally, the lead acid batteries in my electric bicycle discharge in about one hour, and they take four to six hours to recharge. The bicycle does not have regenerative braking, and it difficult to see how it could, given this performance. The bicycle takes a pair of batteries, shown here: http://www.pacificbattery.com/eb.html - Jed --=====================_8245656==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" gesrebspar juno.com wrote:

Jed- I don't know where you got this info that auto engines can't last more than 180,000 miles.

I did not say they cannot last, I said they need an overhaul. Mine did, anyway.


 I drove a dodge diplomat V8 for 267,000 miles without an overhaul- the famous 318ci engine.

That is remarkable. Most manufacturers say you need an overhaul at about 120,000 miles, I believe. It costs anywhere from $2000-$4000. I think that is roughly as much as the new batteries in the hybrid cars will cost.

The point is, when hybrid cars were introduced, some auto industry columnists fretted that battery costs were unknown, and that over the life of the car the cost of the batteries might be very substantial. Now that hundreds of thousands of these cars are in use, we see that is not the case.

Industry observers and people who oppose progress also said that recycling the batteries might be an environmental problem. No doubt recycling must be dealt with properly, but it hardly begins to compare to the environmental problems caused by conventional gasoline motors.

Incidentally, the lead acid batteries in my electric bicycle discharge in about one hour, and they take four to six hours to recharge. The bicycle does not have regenerative braking, and it difficult to see how it could, given this performance. The bicycle takes a pair of batteries, shown here:

http://www.pacificbattery.com/eb.html

- Jed
--=====================_8245656==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 09:27:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UHRI87029490; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:27:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UHR8Rn029386; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:27:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:27:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: ...water into wine... Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:28:51 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58785 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace writes: >It would be very useful if someone who has access to the paper would >summarize "Arc-liberated chemical energy exceeds electrical input energy", >Journal of Plasma Physics, Vol.63, part 2, p.115 (2000). Here's an online source http://journals.cambridge.org/bin/bladerunner?REQUNIQ=1112200824&REQSESS=512365&117000REQEVENT=&REQINT1=18654&REQAUTH=0 if for some reason the above link doesn't work, search around http://journals.cambridge.org for the "chapter and verse" ( another gratuitous biblical reference for the zealots ). Maybe Frank can buy a copy, it's 18USD but only 12GBP, a substantial savings for the unit impaired (grin). The device described on Rich Hull's site is also described in detail in P. Graneau's book Electrodynamics of Metals. I hope Dick has improved the circuit, Graneau was using air core rogowski coils for the current measurements which IMHO can be a misleading way of looking at the currents. Also I am a little surprised he could get away with copper electrodes, when I did this sort of work I was melting tungsten spark gaps like they were butter. The circuit is a basic LC circuit with the spark/arc gap being the cannon barrel you describe. Cap values ranged from 1/4 to 2 microfarads, charge voltages from 2 to 8 KV. Induction was about 900 microhenries. He correctly points out that the currently believed explaination of what causes the explosion is incorrect ( steam from the arc ), but then goes on to attempt to shoehorn the Ampere Neuman longitudinal force to fit the results. Better explainations exist. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 10:02:22 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UI2687016777; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:02:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UI1wBL016701; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:01:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:01:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050330175800.006c651c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:58:00 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:02 am 30-03-05 -0900, Horace wrote: >Scientific research should not be biased by belief systems, though of >course it is. It is a search for truth, whatever the answers might be. I >certainly do agree that engineering and invention on the other hand require >extreme faith that what is attempted might be possible. Also, it takes a >big ego to tackle a big job, and I do appreciate that it is really tough to >maintain such an ego and such faith when continually attempting the nearly >impossible. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner You believe there is such a thing as truth - that's a good enough recommendation for me - so let's end this vigourous discussion positively on that point of mutual agreement. I can see that, like the apostle, Thomas, you are not someone to persuaded of any truth easily. Never mind. Thomas became a saint for all that. ;-) Cheers Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 10:05:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UI5K87018935; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:05:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UI55NZ018798; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:05:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:05:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=TBiv/oJo9aJeb78oTB9BkvTEsAoiQAl2v2BMIN2jF+D9ZdrtKtw07T4pLrhdBtpVK5f7MnWrMtSrScyMb7eGLDvbcPR/AhBg3smrVxLOEDGNRLG31kNR6lic38VFKHM5rkmfxmBc0aleILbBFSxyomjyWFgKyrbXLv0w9Uj6Brk= ; Message-ID: <20050330180356.20426.qmail web51705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:03:55 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Widespread use of hybrid cars has already improved battery techno logy To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-829610663-1112205835=:18596" Resent-Message-ID: <2rT-yB.A.klE.PpuSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58787 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-829610663-1112205835=:18596 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii There are many stories of the old "slant six" passing 300k mi without overhaul. I have a coworker who got over 500k mi out of a 5 l Ford engine in his Lincoln. It was the older, cast iron block engine. His newer 5 l aluminum block version barely made 300k. He swears by synthetic oils and PTFE additives: http://tufoil.com/tufoil/consintr.html "gesrebspar juno.com" wrote: I drove a dodge diplomat V8 for 267,000 miles without an overhaul- the famous 318ci engine. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-829610663-1112205835=:18596 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
There are many stories of the old "slant six" passing 300k mi without overhaul.  I have a coworker who got over 500k mi out of a 5 l Ford engine in his Lincoln.  It was the older, cast iron block engine.  His newer 5 l aluminum block version barely made 300k.  He swears by synthetic oils and PTFE additives:
 
http://tufoil.com/tufoil/consintr.html

"gesrebspar juno.com" <gesrebspar@juno.com> wrote:
I drove a dodge diplomat V8
for 267,000 miles without an overhaul- the famous 318ci engine.

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-829610663-1112205835=:18596-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 10:05:57 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UI5j87019146; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:05:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UI5KiX018927; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:05:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:05:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050330175802.006b75dc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:58:02 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58788 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:28 am 30-03-05 -0900, you wrote: >Conjecture: microwaving degassed deionized water is just as effective as >exposing it to sunlight for the purposes of increasing energy yield when >exploding it in a Graneau style gun. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner Sounds plausible to me. It even suggests that one might regenerate the water fuel on board. Now that would be impressive. It might also be necessary if it was found that the water had to have the kind of purity requirement typical of nano-technology. Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 10:09:07 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UI8x87021242; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:09:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UI8UBD020914; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:08:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:08:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=dvrqvl/78dlpfZPZBp2ysRaFVHGJGRQNkYolzRMjQqE4QXnzN0Q86nfSN9mWkxWUmf59IMESYIhhf6NVqWxRixoD+K+8/iwB1KFYLegsPsKkYq9GlmJWAD0/4bVT+6gNxssjpSiDg/Pm68JzT/qU4mgS2BbBNvDMJQRY6zTcRXM= ; Message-ID: <20050330180756.68908.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:07:56 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: State of the World To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-998280699-1112206076=:67549" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58789 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-998280699-1112206076=:67549 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii They say the glass is only 1/3 full: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1447863,00.html http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/story.jsp?story=624667 Come on Scotty, we need that replicator. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. --0-998280699-1112206076=:67549 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

They say the glass is only 1/3 full:
 
 
 
Come on Scotty, we need that replicator.

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. --0-998280699-1112206076=:67549-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 10:58:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UIwETK016980; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:58:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UIw8M2016919; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:58:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:58:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050330185700.006e75cc pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:57:00 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: RE: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58791 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:28 pm 30-03-05 -0500, Keith wrote: >Horace writes: >>It would be very useful if someone who has access to the paper would >>summarize "Arc-liberated chemical energy exceeds electrical input energy", >>Journal of Plasma Physics, Vol.63, part 2, p.115 (2000). > >Here's an online source > >http://journals.cambridge.org/bin/bladerunner? REQUNIQ=1112200824&REQSESS=512365&117000REQEVENT=&REQINT1=18654&REQAUTH=0 > >if for some reason the above link doesn't work, search around It works. > Maybe Frank can buy a copy, it's 18USD but only 12GBP, > a substantial savings for >the unit impaired (grin). I've done better than that. On the basis that an engineer is someone who can do for tuppence what any fool can do for sixpence I've posted off a request to Harrow library for the article. They ain't quick - but they're VERY cheap. ;-) When it arrives I'll scan it in and put it on my Yahoo Groups site so that anyone who's interested can access it. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 11:13:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UJDcs9030206; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:13:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UJDYJ4030109; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:13:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:13:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001901c5355c$8b4d00b0$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <3rr0ks$olggv0 mxip05a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: New battery technology Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:13:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/plain"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C53564.EA6338A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58792 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C53564.EA6338A0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Johnson wrote: <> Although Altair have been researching these battery electrodes for at least several years their first substantial announcement was only 7 weeks ago... http://www.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes/newsarticle.asp?dist=¶m=archive&siteid=mktw&guid=%7BE82660C7%2D7ED1%2D4A9E%2DAAED%2D50789C46984D%7D Altair Nanotechnologies Achieves Breakthrough in Battery Materials Altair's Developments Pave the Way for a New Generation of Rechargeable Batteries 2/10/2005 9:45:52 AM RENO, NV, Feb. 10, 2005 (MARKET WIRE via COMTEX) -- Altair Nanotechnologies, Inc. (ALTI) announced today that it has achieved a breakthrough in Lithium Ion battery electrode materials, which will enable a new generation of rechargeable battery to be introduced into the marketplace, as well as create new markets for rechargeable batteries. These new materials allow rechargeable batteries to be manufactured that have three times the power of existing Lithium Ion batteries at the same price and with recharge times measured in a few minutes rather than hours. The technical achievements are being praised by the battery community as truly remarkable and will likely enable a new generation of rechargeable battery to be produced. Altair has confidentiality agreements in place with some of the world's leading battery development companies to evaluate and commercialize these battery electrode materials. Altair's research and development efforts were allowed two new patents (announced on January 7th and 14th, 2005) and a National Science Foundation grant was successfully completed in January, 2005, by Altair. New markets for fast charging batteries will include the handheld power tools market increasing the productivity of, for example, construction workers while lowering their overhead costs. Other markets include hybrid electric vehicles, portable electronics and medical surgery tools -- solving the problem of electrical wires all over the operating room floor. Endorsements for Altair's work in this area have come from many quarters. Two eminent experts in battery technology, Dr. K. M. Abraham and Dr. Vassilis G. Keramidas, have expressed strong support for Altair's work "The nanomaterials Altair is developing are the next generation of electrode materials for lithium-ion batteries and Altair's research and product development is laying the ground work for a new generation of ultra high power lithium ion batteries," commented Dr. K. M. Abraham. "A key requirement to the above applications is the ability to recharge the battery very quickly, for example in a few minutes. Current Li Ion batteries are incapable of such quick charge times because of the chemistry of the anode materials. Altair has found a solution to this with their nano-sized lithium titanium oxide." "Altair's nanomaterials, which have a virtually zero strain crystal lattice, eliminate the main cause for battery electrode material fatigue, which limits rechargeable battery life, increasing the number of recharge and discharge cycles from a few hundred to many thousand cycles," said Dr. Vassilis G. Keramidas. "I find Altair's development strategy and proposed research direction sound and a necessary step in establishing the Li-Ion electrochemistry as a viable contender for large battery applications." "Our research in battery electrode materials is a further indication of how Altair's scientists are able to apply their nanomaterials science knowledge to solving real world needs," commented Altair CEO Dr. Alan J. Gotcher. "Many of the technology and product development initiatives that we have been working on for the last few years are now coming to the commercialization stage. Each step is another validation of our business strategy and product technology platform. Altair's nanomaterial based, micro porous electrode technology has performance and stability advantages that appear to be unmatched when compared to the best commercialized technology in the market today." Dr. K. M. Abraham ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C53564.EA6338A0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="1.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://www.marketwatch.com/1.gif R0lGODlhAgACAIAAAP///wAAACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAACAAIAQAIChF8AOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C53564.EA6338A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 11:38:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UJbvXN018930; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:37:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UJbrre018886; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:37:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:37:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006601c5355f$f157de40$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <20050330180756.68908.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: State of the World Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:37:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0063_01C53568.50CB5160" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Resent-Message-ID: <6tu9B.A.-mE.QAwSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58793 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C53568.50CB5160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Terry Blanton wrote <> This is the first paragraph of one of the articles he gives a link to: <> As one of the green activists who often seem to be sneered at in = articles such as this, I have to say that all this "considered opinion" = is now saying precisely what environmentalists have been warning about = for at least 50 years. It only gives me a kind of twisted pleasure to = say "TOLD YOU SO, YOU ARROGANT, IRRESPONSIBLE, VAIN, GREEDY, PATRONISING = MORONS" ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C53568.50CB5160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Terry Blanton wrote <<They say the glass is only 1/3 = full:>>
 
This is the first paragraph of one of = the articles=20 he gives a link to:
 
<<Planet Earth stands on = the cusp of=20 disaster and people should no longer take it for granted that their = children and=20 grandchildren will survive in the environmentally degraded world of the = 21st=20 century. This is not the doom-laden talk of green activists but the = considered=20 opinion of 1,300 leading scientists from 95 countries who will today = publish a=20 detailed assessment of the state of the world at the start of the new=20 millennium.>>
 
As one of the green activists who often = seem to be=20 sneered at in articles such as this, I have to say that all this = "considered=20 opinion" is now saying precisely what environmentalists have been = warning about=20 for at least 50 years. It only gives me a kind of twisted pleasure to = say "TOLD=20 YOU SO, YOU ARROGANT, IRRESPONSIBLE, VAIN, GREEDY, PATRONISING = MORONS"
------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C53568.50CB5160-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 12:05:33 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UK5JXN032411; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:05:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UK5Ga5032346; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:05:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:05:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050330150148.02ba13c8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:04:41 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: State of the World In-Reply-To: <006601c5355f$f157de40$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> References: <20050330180756.68908.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> <006601c5355f$f157de40$0600a8c0 nixlaptop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: >As one of the green activists who often seem to be sneered at in articles >such as this, I have to say that all this "considered opinion" is now >saying precisely what environmentalists have been warning about for at >least 50 years. It only gives me a kind of twisted pleasure to say "TOLD >YOU SO, YOU ARROGANT, IRRESPONSIBLE, VAIN, GREEDY, PATRONISING MORONS" I feel the same way, and I suppose Winston Churchill probably the same way when he was called upon to form a cabinet in May 1940. Yet he kept on many of Chamberlain's appointees. He later explained why: "If one were dependent on the people who had been right in the last few years, what a tiny handful one would have to depend on." (Lucas, J., The Duel, p. 61) He also said: "If we open a quarrel between the past and the present, we shall find that we have lost the future." - June 18, 1940. ibid, p. 137 I try to remember that, in anticipation of the day when people begin to take cold fusion seriously. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 13:12:16 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2ULBwXN009947; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:11:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2ULBp61009846; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:11:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:11:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:13:01 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: New battery technology Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:05 AM 3/30/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: >30 hp, by the way, seems a little low even for a lightweight electric car, >based on the performance of my 40 HP Geo Metro. I think you need more like >70 to 100 HP, even with a light, aerodynamic car. The Honda Insight has a >73 hp engine and a 10 kW electric motor. The Toyota Prius has 110 hp, >gasoline-electric combined. [snip] Gasoline is roughly 20,000 Btu/lb, and 6 lbs/gal, thus has about 120,000 Btu/gal. A car that gets 30 mi/gallon at 60 mi/hr uses 2 gallons per hour, or 240,000 Btu/hr = 94 hp. However, if the motor is only 30 percent efficient, the motor is really only putting out about 21 hp. A car or motorcycle that cruises at 60 mi/gallon at 30 percent efficiency is using only about 10 hp to cruise. For some reason I just find this fascinating. The extra horsepower, which is indeed needed for normal and safe driving, is really needed primarily for accelerating and hill climbing. This is obviously one of the reasons hybrids work so well - they can combine energy sources when a power boost is needed, but cruise on a smaller motor. Another reason is that electric motors are not Carnot limited, so can do a lot better than 30 percent efficiency. The problem is to get the recharge capability running at high efficiency, so that's where fuel cells enter the picture for hybrids. With regard to hill climbing, most journeys are closed circuit, so for each up meter travelled there is a down meter, and regenerative breaking combined with freewheeling coasting should be able to recover hill climbing energy using even moderately fast recharging batteries, unlike the eneryg dissipated in high energy fast breaking. Good driving habits could thus substantially affect the milage that can be obtained from fast recharge battery regenerative breaking. You have pointed out that automated transportation systems (automated cars, etc.) are the way to go. Such a system would eliminate the safety requirements for high vehicle horsepower and result in a much more efficient transportation network. In other words, lead footed idiots really burn the fuel. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 13:12:27 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2ULCLXN010174; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:12:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2ULBt9D009906; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:11:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:11:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:12:58 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Graneau's theory Resent-Message-ID: <9gUVr.A.TaC.ZYxSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:31 AM 3/30/5, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>>The vapor molecule is >>>stopped when it strikes the liquid surface of a drop. In the process the >>>kinetic energy of the vapor molecule is converted to binding energy in the >>>drop. >>> >But this is, like, backwards, isn't it? You _gain_ kinetic energy when >the molecules join up, you don't lose it! Otherwise sweating, which >runs the process backwards, would make you hotter. Yes, this is the standard version of things. The kinetic energy of the inelastic collision of molecule-drop-combining is converted to heat. The energy of the hydrogen bonding adds to that initial kinetic energy but then is converted to heat by the inelastic collision and bonding. When sweating, only the most energetic molecules can break the surface tension, thus the molecules remaining end up with reduced net temperature. Seems right to me. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 13:29:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2ULTGXN022363; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:29:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2ULTD8s022333; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:29:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:29:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <424B1A30.9080608 pobox.com> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:29:20 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20050105 Debian/1.7.5-1 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New battery technology References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >At 10:05 AM 3/30/5, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > >>30 hp, by the way, seems a little low even for a lightweight electric car, >>based on the performance of my 40 HP Geo Metro. I think you need more like >>70 to 100 HP, even with a light, aerodynamic car. The Honda Insight has a >>73 hp engine and a 10 kW electric motor. The Toyota Prius has 110 hp, >>gasoline-electric combined. >> >> >[snip] > >Gasoline is roughly 20,000 Btu/lb, and 6 lbs/gal, thus has about 120,000 >Btu/gal. A car that gets 30 mi/gallon at 60 mi/hr uses 2 gallons per hour, >or 240,000 Btu/hr = 94 hp. However, if the motor is only 30 percent >efficient, the motor is really only putting out about 21 hp. A car or >motorcycle that cruises at 60 mi/gallon at 30 percent efficiency is using >only about 10 hp to cruise. For some reason I just find this fascinating. >The extra horsepower, which is indeed needed for normal and safe driving, >is really needed primarily for accelerating and hill climbing. This is >obviously one of the reasons hybrids work so well - they can combine energy >sources when a power boost is needed, but cruise on a smaller motor. > > I understand that this is how they work but I've never understood why. Why is it not better to use a gutsy electric motor, a small gasoline or diesel engine, and a battery pack? That always seemed like the "reasonable" way to build a hybrid -- take a tip from diesel electric locomotives, that run the diesel engine at a very efficient constant RPM, and use the electric wheel motors with their very wide dynamic range to do the "impedence match" to the terrain. The battery pack gets you onto the expressway and up the hills, and the petroleum based motor/generator provides all the electricity that you need while cruising. Obviously my intuition here is wrong. Is there a 20 word explanation of why? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 13:50:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2ULoCXN001255; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:50:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2ULo3lk001196; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:50:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:50:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050330214900.0071622c pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:49:00 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: Graneau's theory Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:19 am 30-03-05 -0900, you wrote: >The following vortex posts on the subject of Graneau may be of interest. > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >At 5:34 PM 1/7/97, Scott Little wrote: >>In the very latest issue of IE (vol 2 no 10), on page 59, there is a paper >>by Peter Graneau. In the introduction he says: >> >>Water is a liquid because the H2O molecules attract each other. This >>attraction is the basis of liquid cohesion. The energy associated with the >>attracting molecules is potential energy. It was acquired from water vapor >>molecules when they first condensed to rain drops. The vapor molecule is >>stopped when it strikes the liquid surface of a drop. In the process the >>kinetic energy of the vapor molecule is converted to binding energy in the >>drop. Vapor molecules are accelerated by atmospheric heat from solar >>radiation. In this way solar energy is concentrated and stored in ordinary >>water. >> >>I know we've discussed this before but seeing it in print has gotten me >>going again. Any comments on this theory? >> >>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. >>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) etcetera, etcetera...... Mmm... I can see their problem. Fortunately, having come the Jordan from a totally different direction, it's not mine. 8-) Ultimately it is the experimental facts which will determine which interpretation of the Graneau effect prevails. My middle name is Joseph which must be a good portent, eh! ;-) Cheers Frank Grimer. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 14:15:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UMFYXN011767; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:15:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UMFVtK011742; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:15:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:15:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:16:46 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: nanotech huckster article and ASTI Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Those interested in ASTI battery technology might want to Google: nanaotech huckster and check out the recent article that mentions ASTI about the 3rd page in. Apparently it posted a 7 million dollar loss recently. No telling how things will go based on new patent. I just wonder how Altair relates to Toshiba, if at all. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 10:39:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UIdPUt003257; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:39:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UIcqvr002970; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:38:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:38:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200503301838.j2UIckUt002863 ultra5.eskimo.com> Reply-To: From: "Don Wiegel" To: "'vortex-list'" Subject: New battery technology Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:38:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcU0hHtd7mxxzL7dSh+dHq/SBut8qQA0nysg In-Reply-To: <18722078.1112092460 localhost> Resent-Message-ID: <9uuEw.A.Lu.7IvSCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58790 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends3 Status: RO X-Status: http://www.pnl.gov/energyscience/01-02/ws.htm Scientists at the Department of Energy's Brookhaven National Laboratory have developed a new metal alloy that could greatly improve the performance of rechargeable batteries for portable electronic devices and electric and hybrid electric cars. -DonW- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 15:54:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2UNsiU6024737; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:54:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2UNsdka024707; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:54:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:54:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: nanotech huckster article and ASTI Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:56:32 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Rcpt-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, nanotechnology is the "next new thing" and most of the venture capital now is being absorbed by things with the word "nano" in them. I myself am selling a radical new technology, that's a thousand times stronger than nanotechnology. I call it picotechnology. Or perhaps it's a thousand times weaker...who can really say? Michael Foster is right; a Li battery with much lower ESR is probably a good replacement for a carbon/H2SO4 supercapacitor. Are ordinary lead/acid batteries really used for regenerative braking? I would think the current surges would cook them. K. -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:17 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: nanotech huckster article and ASTI Those interested in ASTI battery technology might want to Google: nanaotech huckster and check out the recent article that mentions ASTI about the 3rd page in. Apparently it posted a 7 million dollar loss recently. No telling how things will go based on new patent. I just wonder how Altair relates to Toshiba, if at all. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 16:11:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2V0BkU6031581; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:11:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2V0Biqi031558; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:11:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:11:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:14:52 +0800 From: FHLew Subject: Re: Graneau's theory In-reply-to: <424AC638.3000908 pobox.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <424B40FC.3010301 tm.net.my> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Virus-Scanned: by Spam Firewall Outbound at tm.net.my References: <424AC638.3000908@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:34 PM 1/7/97, Scott Little wrote: < In the very latest issue of IE (vol 2 no 10), on page 59, there is a paper by Peter Graneau. In the introduction he says: Water is a liquid because the H2O molecules attract each other. This attraction is the basis of liquid cohesion. The energy associated with the attracting molecules is potential energy. > The Topics may be of interest: 1. Chemical Bonds and Attractive Forces 1. The Water Splitting Clock in this webpage. The URL is: http://build.tripod.lycos.com/trellix/sitebuilder/f_edit_page.html With regards Lew Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Horace Heffner wrote: > >> The following vortex posts on the subject of Graneau may be of interest. >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> At 5:34 PM 1/7/97, Scott Little wrote: >> >> >>> In the very latest issue of IE (vol 2 no 10), on page 59, there is a >>> paper >>> by Peter Graneau. In the introduction he says: >>> >>> Water is a liquid because the H2O molecules attract each other. This >>> attraction is the basis of liquid cohesion. The energy associated >>> with the >>> attracting molecules is potential energy. >>> > Uh huh. And in liquid water that potential energy is negative, not > positive, if we assume it starts at ~0 in the gas phase. > > This whole discussion of binding energy seems very strange -- the > atoms start out at the top of the slope, and when they aggregate into > molecules, they slide down the slope and give up energy; you never > pump energy _in_ to get them to stick together! When molecules get > together in a liquid, they slide farther down the slope; again, energy > is given up. > > To get energy out of chemical bonds you need to replace them with > other chemical bonds which are farther "down the slope". To get > energy out of a liquid you need to replace it with a different phase > which is also farther downslope. > > >>> It was acquired from water vapor >>> molecules when they first condensed to rain drops. >>> > > At that point they gave it up -- the potential energy turned into > kinetic energy. > >>> The vapor molecule is >>> stopped when it strikes the liquid surface of a drop. In the process >>> the >>> kinetic energy of the vapor molecule is converted to binding energy >>> in the >>> drop. >>> > But this is, like, backwards, isn't it? You _gain_ kinetic energy > when the molecules join up, you don't lose it! Otherwise sweating, > which runs the process backwards, would make you hotter. > > >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 16:30:15 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2V0U2U6005658; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:30:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2V0TvbU005590; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:29:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:29:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:31:14 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: New battery technology Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:29 PM 3/30/5, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >Why is it not better to use a gutsy electric motor, a small gasoline or >diesel engine, and a battery pack? That always seemed like the >"reasonable" way to build a hybrid -- take a tip from diesel electric >locomotives, that run the diesel engine at a very efficient constant >RPM, and use the electric wheel motors with their very wide dynamic >range to do the "impedence match" to the terrain. The battery pack gets >you onto the expressway and up the hills, and the petroleum based >motor/generator provides all the electricity that you need while cruising. > >Obviously my intuition here is wrong. Is there a 20 word explanation of >why? I'm no expert on this, but I'll give it a shot. However 20 words is a bit too little. Here's a short answer: If big energy batteries weighed nothing, cost nothing, and had no bulk, you would need no gas motor. A longer answer is size, cost and weight of electric motor, control, and battery must be balanced to savings achieved by reduction in these parameters due to transmission and fueled motor size reduction and regenerative breaking. Optimizing depends on the driving conditions for the design. It appears a good match for present battery systems is roughly even sizes for the power of the two systems. In this way a combined gas motor/battery combination is available for big hill climbs or charging while driving. The motor does not need to be on while idling or even at all times when cruising. If you have a 30 hp gas motor and cruise at 60 mpg you have about 2/3 the motor output available for charging when cruising, so can cruise more than half the time without the gas motor running at all. The vehicle can perform at half power on either pure electric or pure gas motor. When stopped in traffic no motor need run at all. The answer also depends on what kind of transmission is used for the gas motor "impedence matching". If no shifting transmission is used for the gas motor, i.e. no gas power is put through a shifting transmission, but it can direct connect in high gear for hill climbs or high speed driving, then this doubles the hill climb horsepower without beefing up the transmission or incurring the overhead for electric power generation from gas during the cruise. This overdrive type connection doesn't help low speed acceleration, but low speed acceleration using electric motors is pretty good anyway. Acceleration could be improved using a fluidized or electronic clutch connection between the gas motor and the overdrive connection, or just by beefing up the transmission, but this is a cost/benefit trade-off. Another short answer: the gas motor doesn't need to run when you are cruising unless you need to charge or to go uphill. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 16:30:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2V0UGU6005750; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:30:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2V0U4I3005685; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:30:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:30:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:31:18 -0900 To: , From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: nanotech huckster article and ASTI Resent-Message-ID: <5kyaU.A.oYB.KS0SCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:56 PM 3/30/5, Keith Nagel wrote: > I myself am selling >a radical new technology, that's a thousand times stronger >than nanotechnology. I call it picotechnology. Well, tell us about it! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 17:23:26 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2V1NJU6029090; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:23:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2V1N8gx029016; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:23:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:23:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002901c53590$2e29eef0$a2017841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Graneau's theory Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:23:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01C5355D.E2C13270" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: <-nWZH.A.RFH.7D1SCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C5355D.E2C13270 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0026_01C5355D.E2C2B910" ------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C5355D.E2C2B910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankMay answer one of the questions on molecular water http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/MSD-action-movies-Salmeron.ht= ml Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C5355D.E2C2B910 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
May answer one of the questions on molecular water

http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/MSD-action-movies= -Salmeron.html

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C5355D.E2C2B910-- ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C5355D.E2C13270 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002401c53590$2d433870$a2017841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C5355D.E2C13270-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 20:07:28 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2V47HjB007858; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:07:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2V475Tg007783; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:07:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:07:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <746130f5-7113-424b-9919-13b9a442561e> Message-ID: <34ab01c535a7$110e0830$a27accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <3rr0ks$olggv0 mxip05a.cluster1.charter.net> Subject: Re: New battery technology Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:06:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: <-ssWeB.A.j5B.od3SCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve wrote: > I would speculate that Toshiba headquarters knowing that their R&D teams were working on the promising nano battery designs made the decision to discontinue the more conventional lithium-ion technology more than a year ago. They knew that if their R&D teams proved successful conventional batteries sales would likely be toast, so you might as well dump them now in preparation of the brave new world. > > It's a bit disconcerting from the perspective of an outsider, not knowing what internal strategies were in the process of being playing out. > > I bet headquarters made the decision to dump the convention lithium battery the second they were fully convinced the new nano batteries were economically feasible to build and sell. > > Mike, Jed, how much of a corporate "secret" was this? Strategically speaking, would this R&D have been kept completely under corporate wraps, or would it have been possible to have acquired an inkling of what was about to unfold it if one had been savvy enough to have read the right technical journals? MC: I don't know. Corporations can be very quiet about their product development. I haven't followed this thread in detail, but can surmise: Toshiba may not have come up with the basic research all by themselves; it may have been in the wind, so to speak, if one is a battery specialist and reads all the right journals. There are many dots waiting to be connected, which keeps conspiracy buffs busy. From my industrial experience, I can testify that it takes a **lot** of work and $$$$ to ready something like a new battery for production. The NiMH battery was invented by Edison, I believe, and used for years in backup applications where its higher cost was tolerated. It is only in the last few years that this technology has been available in flashlight cells. I don't know why the delay has been so great. Part of it is market demand for higher energy batteries for toys and cameras, and objections to the toxicity of NiCd. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 20:07:30 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2V47MjB007885; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:07:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2V476se007794; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:07:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:07:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <746130f5-7113-424b-9919-13b9a442561e> Message-ID: <34aa01c535a7$10ba9100$a27accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20050330033139.045751BCD0 xprdmailfe23.nwk.excite.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050330095404.02bab298@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: New battery technology Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:57:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: The point that Mike Carrell has made about a very rapid recharge is that it would require the batteries to absorb energy much faster than they ever discharge it. Suppose you have a car with a 200 mile range that recharges in six minutes. The batteries have to absorb enough energy in six minutes to drive the engine at top speed for three hours, a 30:1 difference (900 hp in, 30 hp out). This is much more demanding than regenerative braking. 30 hp, by the way, seems a little low even for a lightweight electric car, based on the performance of my 40 HP Geo Metro. I think you need more like 70 to 100 HP, even with a light, aerodynamic car. The Honda Insight has a 73 hp engine and a 10 kW electric motor. The Toyota Prius has 110 hp, gasoline-electric combined. See: MC: I said *at the wheels*. I don't have the exact numbers at hand, but there are a lot of losses between the engine crankshaft and the wheels. One is the power necessary for the hydraulic system. It needs high pressure, which has to be generated constantly, so there is a bypass around the pump which wastes energy constantly. There is talk of future designs with 48 and 72 volt electric systems. At that level, magnetically activated brakes and power steering are possible and the hydraulic system is yesteryear. The deal with hydrids is that the engine provides the necessary power for cruising and battery charging while running at a constant speed for which it is optimized. The batteries provide the surges for acceleration, with some recovery in braking. The torque from electric motors and batteries can be very high. One hybrid SUV has the acceration of a sports car and is attracting customers on that basis. In a normal car the engine can provide more power for acceleration [inefficiently] than is needed for cruising, with no recovery in braking. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Mar 30 18:47:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2V2l2U6030905; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:47:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2V2ksgw030804; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:46:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:46:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0afc01c5359b$94e89280$4b01a8c0 colin5fc9e2583> Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" From: "Colin Quinney" To: "Tesla list" , , , Subject: Charles Yost's passing Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:44:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: (forwarded message) Dear Friends, We regret to inform you that Tuesday, March 29, at 8:30 pm, Charles Yost passed away at his home. Charles had been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and chose to go naturally. Charles was the executive editor of the Electric Spacecraft Journal. He used his time on earth to support and encourage innovative explorations and new ways of looking at things of a scientific nature. He is perhaps best known as the NASA engineer who developed Temper (memory) Foam. We at ESJ hope to continue the journal with renewed effort to publish more frequently. Richard Hull will be taking over as executive editor. We hope to continue as a forum for critical thinkers and garage tinkerers. We regret, however, that nobody will be able to replace Charles in his capacity to listen to so many of you with such interest. With a little time, we intend to lend support to independent researchers, just as Charles envisioned we would. We would encourage you to keep your curiosity and research efforts alive, and hope you will not hesitate to let us at ESJ try to be as supportive of your good ideas as Charles was. His family has requested that no flowers be sent. There will be no funeral service. Cards, however, are welcome: c/o The Electric Spacecraft Journal 322 Sunlight Drive Leicester, NC 28748. Plans for a memorial service and celebration of Charles' life will be announced later. Memorial contributions may be made to: The Charles A. Yost Scholarship Fund c/o The Sunlight Foundation 235 Sunlight Drive Leicester, NC 28748 Hospice of Madison County 745 Carl Eller Road Mars Hill, NC 28754 or to the charity of your choice. Thank you for your understanding, Leslee Kulba ESJ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 01:18:12 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2V9HxB0029464; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:17:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2V9Hr0Y029419; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:17:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:17:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:17:44 +0800 From: FHLew Subject: Re: Graneau's theory In-reply-to: <424B40FC.3010301 tm.net.my> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <424BC038.5040003 tm.net.my> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Virus-Scanned: by Spam Firewall Outbound at tm.net.my References: <424AC638.3000908 pobox.com> <424B40FC.3010301@tm.net.my> Resent-Message-ID: <5zI8h.A.ZLH.AB8SCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Apologies to members : Typo < in this webpage. The URL is: http://build.tripod.lycos.com/trellix/sitebuilder/f_edit_page.html > Please click " Cosmic Visualization " at URL: http://lewfh.tripod.com/visuallistening/ With regards Lew FHLew wrote: > At 5:34 PM 1/7/97, Scott Little wrote: > > > < In the very latest issue of IE (vol 2 no 10), on page 59, there is > a paper > by Peter Graneau. In the introduction he says: > > Water is a liquid because the H2O molecules attract each other. This > attraction is the basis of liquid cohesion. The energy associated with > the > attracting molecules is potential energy. > > > The Topics may be of interest: > > 1. Chemical Bonds and Attractive Forces > 1. The Water Splitting Clock > > in this webpage. The URL is: > http://build.tripod.lycos.com/trellix/sitebuilder/f_edit_page.html > > With regards > Lew > > > > > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> >> >> Horace Heffner wrote: >> >>> The following vortex posts on the subject of Graneau may be of >>> interest. >>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >>> At 5:34 PM 1/7/97, Scott Little wrote: >>> >>> >>>> In the very latest issue of IE (vol 2 no 10), on page 59, there is >>>> a paper >>>> by Peter Graneau. In the introduction he says: >>>> >>>> Water is a liquid because the H2O molecules attract each other. This >>>> attraction is the basis of liquid cohesion. The energy associated >>>> with the >>>> attracting molecules is potential energy. >>>> >> Uh huh. And in liquid water that potential energy is negative, not >> positive, if we assume it starts at ~0 in the gas phase. >> >> This whole discussion of binding energy seems very strange -- the >> atoms start out at the top of the slope, and when they aggregate into >> molecules, they slide down the slope and give up energy; you never >> pump energy _in_ to get them to stick together! When molecules get >> together in a liquid, they slide farther down the slope; again, >> energy is given up. >> >> To get energy out of chemical bonds you need to replace them with >> other chemical bonds which are farther "down the slope". To get >> energy out of a liquid you need to replace it with a different phase >> which is also farther downslope. >> >> >>>> It was acquired from water vapor >>>> molecules when they first condensed to rain drops. >>>> >> >> At that point they gave it up -- the potential energy turned into >> kinetic energy. >> >>>> The vapor molecule is >>>> stopped when it strikes the liquid surface of a drop. In the >>>> process the >>>> kinetic energy of the vapor molecule is converted to binding energy >>>> in the >>>> drop. >>>> >> But this is, like, backwards, isn't it? You _gain_ kinetic energy >> when the molecules join up, you don't lose it! Otherwise sweating, >> which runs the process backwards, would make you hotter. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 03:47:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VBlYB0024369; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 03:47:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VBl4P7024216; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 03:47:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 03:47:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vortex mystery Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:46:46 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <37on41htu13d1tv7kjrfr9hb95rkghvnul 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2VBksB0024128 Resent-Message-ID: <-WNFlC.A.G6F.0M-SCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 13 Mar 2005 17:53:41 -0900: Hi Horace, I'm having some trouble understanding this formula. If it's meant to give the relationship between the absolute height of the water surface at any radius, then it seems to say that at w=0, h= h0, i.e. h0 is the height of stationary water in the tank. >Correction follows. Sorry! > >The shape of the final equilibrium surface is: > > h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 However when the water rotates, a dip forms at the middle, which can drop right down to the floor of the tank at sufficiently high w. However, according to the formula, for any w > 0, h > h0 for all R, since the first term is always positive. Therefore, the formula either doesn't represent what I thought it was meant to represent, or it doesn't describe reality. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 06:57:36 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VEvVB0017507; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 06:57:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VEvQTG017449; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 06:57:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 06:57:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050331094641.02c09150 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:57:16 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: New battery technology In-Reply-To: <34aa01c535a7$10ba9100$a27accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <20050330033139.045751BCD0 xprdmailfe23.nwk.excite.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050330095404.02bab298 pop.mindspring.com> <34aa01c535a7$10ba9100$a27accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1232625==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1232625==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Mike Carrell wrote: >MC: I said *at the wheels*. I don't have the exact numbers at hand, but >there are a lot of losses between the engine crankshaft and the wheels. One >is the power necessary for the hydraulic system. Good point. The NREL "Hydrogen Program Plan" cites a JPL study from 1985 showing that with conventional automobiles, 85% of Rotary Power is delivered to Vehicle Propulsion. By 2020 they hope to raise this to 90%. I should upload images of these NREL diagrams for automobiles and electric power. They are very handy. I will look around on the web to see if I can find a copy. - Jed --=====================_1232625==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Mike Carrell wrote:

MC: I said *at the wheels*. I don't have the exact  numbers at hand, but
there are a lot of losses between the engine crankshaft and the wheels. One
is the power necessary for the hydraulic system.

Good point. The NREL "Hydrogen Program Plan" cites a JPL study from 1985 showing that with conventional automobiles, 85% of Rotary Power is delivered to Vehicle Propulsion. By 2020 they hope to raise this to 90%.

I should upload images of these NREL diagrams for automobiles and electric power. They are very handy. I will look around on the web to see if I can find a copy.

- Jed
--=====================_1232625==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 07:21:00 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VFKbB0031963; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:20:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VFKWC5031898; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:20:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:20:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=NZZ1D4T9n8O9M/1zJWV0ac06Y5uauwhl71ZiuffwqmxX4W9Xh16vod9uWLF/gWPh4qVwjkhHGVqNYS0illvryPEIE3f5ewfA7r4Vd6AYWTKLNjqjwt/lJc98zUDRMRo/TvMbIo49AwHcYc2A8C+2fZ6qtaqLl+1EZhXXx4WBVq0= ; Message-ID: <20050331152012.8212.qmail web51703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:20:12 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Toshiba Battery Operation To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1033758903-1112282412=:6867" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1033758903-1112282412=:6867 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://itvibe.com/news/3403/ "The breakthrough came with a new technology which requires nano-particles to be applied to the batteries negative electrode. The nano-particles prevent organic liquid electrolytes from reducing during battery recharging, and quickly absorb and store a vast amount of lithium ions without causing any deterioration in the electrode. " Hmmm. I wonder if this is done in a manner similar to the creation of metal hydrides? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1033758903-1112282412=:6867 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

http://itvibe.com/news/3403/

"The breakthrough came with a new technology which requires nano-particles to be applied to the batteries negative electrode. The nano-particles prevent organic liquid electrolytes from reducing during battery recharging, and quickly absorb and store a vast amount of lithium ions without causing any deterioration in the electrode. "

Hmmm.  I wonder if this is done in a manner similar to the creation of metal hydrides?

 

 

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http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1033758903-1112282412=:6867-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 07:37:43 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VFbYB0016376; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:37:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VFbVrM016337; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:37:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:37:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=kIdojpWOvW3VmJ3EeExHjvbzROOcD0mfxq2zQ81fbfT+V+9uagwr+IzPcpPq0HgGT7pNZ7j2ypiQBloUeYTHJI5SAYDSeazNXlBt90azHidMFi7pF0EiHwTlcS/GfPJV0X19YQriSK1dgQdjt0Dzb656Me3QNa8qesjpYMRFV1E= ; Message-ID: <20050331153716.66987.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:37:16 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Making a Hybrid Work To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1018739146-1112283436=:64654" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1018739146-1112283436=:64654 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.04/hybrid.html "One reason carmakers like to focus on horsepower is that it's damn hard to develop an algorithm that manages a hybrid power train. No company has been able to come up with a formula that beats Toyota's. Ford developed its own algorithm only to realize it was very similar to the Toyota approach; in order to avoid a lawsuit, it ended up purchasing a license rather than pursuing a patent. Mercedes was stunned to discover that its vaunted F 500 Mind concept car, a diesel-electric hybrid, actually got worse mileage on the highway than a gas-only version. Nissan just threw up its arms and licensed nearly all of Toyota's hybrid technology." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page --0-1018739146-1112283436=:64654 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

 
"One reason carmakers like to focus on horsepower is that it's damn hard to develop an algorithm that manages a hybrid power train. No company has been able to come up with a formula that beats Toyota's. Ford developed its own algorithm only to realize it was very similar to the Toyota approach; in order to avoid a lawsuit, it ended up purchasing a license rather than pursuing a patent. Mercedes was stunned to discover that its vaunted F 500 Mind concept car, a diesel-electric hybrid, actually got worse mileage on the highway than a gas-only version. Nissan just threw up its arms and licensed nearly all of Toyota's hybrid technology."

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Make Yahoo! your home page --0-1018739146-1112283436=:64654-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 07:44:38 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VFiPB0020519; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:44:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VFiN0I020499; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:44:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:44:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=QHV2+BLGEEo78oOI3RT74SPVlEvhf/H/b6CJYv0BcRC68feM7tc9T3Z72lppkUPdpmZmSNMIOpo04llZyjHFnym7LjOk5mUwgeMrH8ax4Rf6z8BxZBqFDzG7yVbJWcYXTBCc1awh8loaLx9qYj0b/qqv64RZ5LMCFvZk0GL1nBY= ; Message-ID: <20050331154416.41083.qmail web51701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:44:16 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Toshiba Battery Operation To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1492783109-1112283856=:39281" Resent-Message-ID: <5jwaP.A.PAF.XrBTCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1492783109-1112283856=:39281 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.eet.com/news/design/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=159907938 "Toshiba plans to begin mass producing the battery in its fiscal 2006 ending March 2007. Producing the battery may be complicated, however, by Toshiba closing its Li-ion battery subsidiary AT Battery last December, and selling the battery plants to Sanyo Electric Co. Ltd. last summer. Toshiba is now determining how to commercially produce the battery." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1492783109-1112283856=:39281 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
 
 
"Toshiba plans to begin mass producing the battery in its fiscal 2006 ending March 2007. Producing the battery may be complicated, however, by Toshiba closing its Li-ion battery subsidiary AT Battery last December, and selling the battery plants to Sanyo Electric Co. Ltd. last summer. Toshiba is now determining how to commercially produce the battery."
 
 
 

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Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1492783109-1112283856=:39281-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 07:56:37 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VFuNB0026500; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:56:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VFuFHp026443; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:56:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:56:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <017001c53609$e1fbac60$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <2.2.32.20050317203248.0068353c pop.freeserve.net> Subject: Steam electricity ...& water into wine... Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:54:10 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I meant to mention this pdf file a couple of weeks ago (but, alas, in the 'spirit' of "omnis homo primum bonum vinum ponit et cum inebriati fuerint tunc id quod deterius est tu servasti bonum vinum usque adhuc".... .... let's just say, here it is and better late than never (or potius sero quam numquam) http://www.esdjournal.com/techpapr/prevens/steam.pdf "Bubbles and steam electricity" by Prevenslik. It ties this thread and that on Graneau all into sonofusion as well. It stops short of suggesting that the OU mechanism for Graneau might be due to either "bubbles," or hydronium ions, or water-structure, and everyone who is informed on this anomaly seems to have a differing opinion on the mechanism... ergo, perhaps there are overlapping mechanisms. Consequently, this file will not settle anything but instead has something to bolster every view including the idea of "solar pumping"... that is, if the vacuum ultraviolet frequencies can somehow be "stored" in the hydrogen bonds themselves - and why not ?... since hydrogen does have those distinct EUV lines at 6.8 13.6 and 27.2 eV all of which frequencies are found in solar radiation at high altitude - as is "cryo-tempering" at that "magic" transition level of ~124 degrees, and CO2 acidification is probably related to the whole package. 124 K is near the origin of the 12th power water vapor line. The vapor pressure of ice is approximately given by the relationship between pressure (atm) and temperature (K) and ~126 K is the temperature for the phase change between glassy amorphous ice and deeply supercooled amorphous water as seen on Prof Chaplin's site, mentioned earlier. This would also point to the possibility of slight mass enhancement (Robert Forward idea) as would absorption of the 6.8 eV should that energy be able to cohere to the proton, as expected. Abstract of Steam Electricity paper: In 1840, Lord Armstrong was the first to study the electrical charge produced as steam escaped from boilers, the phenomenon called "steam electricity." In 1969, interest in steam electricity was renewed because of explosions caused by the ignition of chemical vapors during the washing of ship tanks with steam jets. Steam electricity is proposed explained by the bubbles nucleated in the boiling of water droplets, the bubbles behaving like resonant quantum electrodynamics (QED) cavities. During bubble growth as the bubble cavity resonance coincides with vacuum ultraviolet frequencies, the water molecules on the bubble walls dissociate by cavity QED into hydronium H3O+ and hydroxyl OH- ions. After recombination, only about 20% of the ions are available for electrification, the ions called available ions to be distinguished from the hydronium and hydroxyl ions in the bubble walls described by the pH and pOH of water, called background ions. Boiler water having an acid pH is the result of acid-base equilibrium between dissolved carbon dioxide and carbonic acid, the concentration of background hydronium ions controlled by the buffering action by carbonate and bicarbonate ions.... ...interesting paper. Jones ...the answers are out there.... Not to mention fitting all these suggestions into the basis of the "Casimir slingshot" along with Frank Grimer's stress/strain inversion thinking: > For many years I have been pondering why the > temperature vs. density curve for water between > 100 and 0 degrees Centigrade is of the same form > (root three power) as the shape of the stress > strain curve for concrete. The inverse of > temperature which I have named Compreture - > (though if anyone knows of an earlier name I > will be happy to use it) corresponds to the > loading of the compression testing machine; and > the zero degree centigrade point where the water > collapses into ice corresponds to the point > where the concrete testing machine off loads > its tensile strain energy into the concrete > causing it to break up into a lower density > conglomerate. > > The isotropic pressure of the Compreture > "testing machine" can be seen to be attempting > to make the water into pretty isotropic > tetrahedral structures like diamond. But the > water doesn't want to go there. It wants to > form nice graphite like sheets and because > the Compreture test machine isn't stiff enough. > at 0 degrees the water wriggles away and does > just that. > > Now it seems to me that there is an awful > lot of strain energy that is going to waste > in the transition from quasi-diamond to > quasi-graphite. How can one tame these wild > horses which are cantering about all over the > field burning up calories without doing > anything useful. There must be a way of breaking > them in and harnessing them to the plough. > > One needs to find a way to accelerate the > "diamond-graphite" transition so that the > energy appears at the micro-scale of pressure > rather than at the nano-scale of heat. On needs > to speed up the transition from isotropic to > asymmetric in some way or other. > > One possibility would be to project tiny > droplets of 4 degree water against a very > stiff flat surface at supersonic speed. This > might instantly flatten any isotropic structure > such as near tetrahedrons or clusters, and > release a lot of the tension-compression strain > energy. I seem to remember reading somewhere > about such an experiment but I think it was in > connection with achieving fusion. > > Another possibility is to subject the 4 degree > water to asymmetric shock and awe with electric > or magnetic fields. > > Obviously, there are many possible regimes that > one could investigate and no doubt it will > require the dedication of a Swan or Edison to > carry out the vast number of experiments needed > to achieve success. However, the rewards are so > enormous that once people are convinced of the > plausibility of the endeavour a successful > outcome is inevitable - assuming of course, > that the insight is correct. > > There have been many reports of the addition > of water to I.C. engines improving their > performance. I would think it's quite likely > there's some truth in these reports and that > quite by accident people have stumbled upon a > way of tapping the energy of the Beta-atmosphere > / Casimir pressure / ZPE - call it what you will. > > I visualise a closed system analogous to a > refrigeration system or Stirling engine which > cycles water around the 4 degree - hexagonal > ice transition. The engine will run nice and > cool which will be good for the working parts. ;-) > > I suppose the biggest obstacle to such a > development is the fact that it would be too > good to be true. A bit like cold fusion in fact, > only more so. Just think, complete independence > from the oil barons, the electric power barons, > etc. The mind boggles. > > Cheers > > Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 07:59:05 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VFwrB0028470; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:58:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VFwlXf028420; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:58:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:58:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=hbvHYXYnuSbqkN/ZrhtF/4Yx3X1On+7lBPiUTYM2NJc6OLEtvSFnK0nP7MA6eDtUEArd1THktXYmzF2/bxM8dGxsUZyHX+sfo8Sh0eyUyqPugOcgJyLAyhJScl7T/druNeR0Uq0JWSvlc+Whsz/xqCsZ8JeePOd3M7nSlER8F1w= ; Message-ID: <20050331155838.96637.qmail web51710.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:58:38 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Toshiba Battery Operation To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-867564119-1112284718=:96250" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-867564119-1112284718=:96250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://tinyurl.com/5y9pf The boron secret from the 2000 patent: "It is possible, when the content of boron is confined to the aforementioned range, to enhance the lithium ion absorption and desorption potential of the negative electrode, so that it is now possible to inhibit lithium metal from being precipitated on the carbonaceous material at the occasion of quick charging or at the occasion of charging/discharging under a low temperature (0.degree. C. or less) environment. Further, since the crystallinity of graphite can be improved, it is possible to improve the rate of lithium ion absorption and desorption in the negative electrode, and hence to improve the discharge capacity of the negative electrode. If the content of boron is less than 1% by weight, it would become difficult to sufficiently enhance not only the lithium ion absorption and desorption potential but also the crystallinity of graphite. On the other hand, if the content of boron exceeds over 10% by weight, a B.sub.4 C compound would be generated in the carbonaceous material. Since this B.sub.4 C compound is incapable of taking part in the absorption and desorption of lithium ion, the capacity of the negative electrode would be deteriorated. As the content of boron in the carbonaceous material becomes larger, the content of boron compound tends to become larger. The content of boron should preferably be in the range of from 1 to 7% by weight, more preferably from 1 to 5% by weight, still more preferably from 1 to 3% by weight, most preferably from 1.5 to 2.5% by weight. " --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-867564119-1112284718=:96250 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

http://tinyurl.com/5y9pf

The boron secret from the 2000 patent:

"It is possible, when the content of boron is confined to the aforementioned range, to enhance the lithium ion absorption and desorption potential of the negative electrode, so that it is now possible to inhibit lithium metal from being precipitated on the carbonaceous material at the occasion of quick charging or at the occasion of charging/discharging under a low temperature (0.degree. C. or less) environment. Further, since the crystallinity of graphite can be improved, it is possible to improve the rate of lithium ion absorption and desorption in the negative electrode, and hence to improve the discharge capacity of the negative electrode. If the content of boron is less than 1% by weight, it would become difficult to sufficiently enhance not only the lithium ion absorption and desorption potential but also the crystallinity of graphite. On the other hand, if the content of boron exceeds over 10% by weight, a B.sub.4 C compound would be generated in the carbonaceous material. Since this B.sub.4 C compound is incapable of taking part in the absorption and desorption of lithium ion, the capacity of the negative electrode would be deteriorated. As the content of boron in the carbonaceous material becomes larger, the content of boron compound tends to become larger. The content of boron should preferably be in the range of from 1 to 7% by weight, more preferably from 1 to 5% by weight, still more preferably from 1 to 3% by weight, most preferably from 1.5 to 2.5% by weight. "

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Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-867564119-1112284718=:96250-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 08:45:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VGj3B0015631; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:45:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VGiwWK015561; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:44:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:44:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=v9MIsFAG3OnD7PjzuRGsuMiQte1ewvS846IQ06lgRlbp7mW/ylPZWCqyCr0gHuHTMcqxB7da3b8K4g2AyevVW2bPB0r/Jaf3wr94DYj/ATAGbaiG00pvQszaNCeNaaTKefvjAiSzPfcm2cSmZ7rGjYuZEmW23eAyh8IMCep+OiE= ; Message-ID: <20050331164443.8938.qmail web51709.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:44:43 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Toshiba's Cathode Material? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1456236038-1112287483=:8291" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1456236038-1112287483=:8291 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://tinyurl.com/5ocex or http://www.freshpatents.com/Method-of-producing-lithium-ion-cathode-materials-dt20040916ptan20040179993.php " 09/16/04 | #20040179993 | Browse Patent Applications: Prev - Next | Browse Industry: USPTO Class 423 Method of producing lithium ion cathode materials A method of producing Liy[NixCo1#8722;2xMnx]O2 wherein 0.025…x…0.5 and 0.9…y…1.3. The method includes mixing [NixCo1#8722;2xMnx]OH2 with LiOH or Li2CO3 and one or both of alkali metal fluorides and boron compounds, preferably one or both of LiF and B2O3. The mixture is heated sufficiently to obtain a composition of Liy[NixCo1#8722;2xMnx]O2 sufficiently dense for use in a lithium-ion battery cathode. Compositions so densified exhibit a minimum reversible volumetric energy characterized by the formula [1833#8722;333x] measured in Wh/L. Class: 423594400 (USPTO), H01M004/52 (Intl Class)" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1456236038-1112287483=:8291 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
 
or
 
 
"

09/16/04 | #20040179993 | Browse Patent Applications: Prev - Next | Browse Industry: USPTO Class 423

 

Method of producing lithium ion cathode materials

 

A method of producing Liy[NixCo1−2xMnx]O2 wherein 0.025…x…0.5 and 0.9…y…1.3. The method includes mixing [NixCo1−2xMnx]OH2 with LiOH or Li2CO3 and one or both of alkali metal fluorides and boron compounds, preferably one or both of LiF and B2O3. The mixture is heated sufficiently to obtain a composition of Liy[NixCo1−2xMnx]O2 sufficiently dense for use in a lithium-ion battery cathode. Compositions so densified exhibit a minimum reversible volumetric energy characterized by the formula [1833−333x] measured in Wh/L.

Class: 423594400 (USPTO), H01M004/52 (Intl Class)"

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1456236038-1112287483=:8291-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 08:49:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VGn3B0017590; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:49:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VGmwq4017528; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:48:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:48:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=wQCLRUOTM7sInj62YinXeNnaW48lPcRfFU7Rvxs2l90/H0RFwxRPxSkVpwpvubthA2aARdnpMgSyiOnuOcKlZHNw/AQEMPOhA+SeP5xndE4uUqjci+9E9tl8x9lPrfqvCe/w/+eOMiAmstyC3P7A0+RHf9j3v38pxw1gckIXp+0= ; Message-ID: <20050331164840.15789.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:48:40 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Toshiba's Cathode Material? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1822006043-1112287720=:13870" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1822006043-1112287720=:13870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sorry, that's 3M's application. Terry Blanton wrote:http://tinyurl.com/5ocex or http://www.freshpatents.com/Method-of-producing-lithium-ion-cathode-materials-dt20040916ptan20040179993.php " 09/16/04 | #20040179993 | Browse Patent Applications: Prev - Next | Browse Industry: USPTO Class 423 Method of producing lithium ion cathode materials A method of producing Liy[NixCo1#8722;2xMnx]O2 wherein 0.025…x…0.5 and 0.9…y…1.3. The method includes mixing [NixCo1#8722;2xMnx]OH2 with LiOH or Li2CO3 and one or both of alkali metal fluorides and boron compounds, preferably one or both of LiF and B2O3. The mixture is heated sufficiently to obtain a composition of Liy[NixCo1#8722;2xMnx]O2 sufficiently dense for use in a lithium-ion battery cathode. Compositions so densified exhibit a minimum reversible volumetric energy characterized by the formula [1833#8722;333x] measured in Wh/L. Class: 423594400 (USPTO), H01M004/52 (Intl Class)" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1822006043-1112287720=:13870 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Sorry, that's 3M's application.

Terry Blanton <terry1094 yahoo.com> wrote:
 
or
 
 
"

09/16/04 | #20040179993 | Browse Patent Applications: Prev - Next | Browse Industry: USPTO Class 423

 

Method of producing lithium ion cathode materials

 

A method of producing Liy[NixCo1−2xMnx]O2 wherein 0.025…x…0.5 and 0.9…y…1.3. The method includes mixing [NixCo1−2xMnx]OH2 with LiOH or Li2CO3 and one or both of alkali metal fluorides and boron compounds, preferably one or both of LiF and B2O3. The mixture is heated sufficiently to obtain a composition of Liy[NixCo1−2xMnx]O2 sufficiently dense for use in a lithium-ion battery cathode. Compositions so densified exhibit a minimum reversible volumetric energy characterized by the formula [1833−333x] measured in Wh/L.

Class: 423594400 (USPTO), H01M004/52 (Intl Class)"

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Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-1822006043-1112287720=:13870-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 09:27:14 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VHR3B0006658; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:27:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VHQrF0006543; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:26:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:26:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Titankey-e_id: <388fac29-a852-4cd0-8291-ac75aca88c4b> Message-ID: <355901c53616$971c93a0$a27accd1 MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <424B1A30.9080608@pobox.com> Subject: Re: New battery technology Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:10:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve wrote: > > I understand that this is how they work but I've never understood why. > > Why is it not better to use a gutsy electric motor, a small gasoline or > diesel engine, and a battery pack? That always seemed like the > "reasonable" way to build a hybrid -- take a tip from diesel electric > locomotives, that run the diesel engine at a very efficient constant > RPM, and use the electric wheel motors with their very wide dynamic > range to do the "impedence match" to the terrain. The battery pack gets > you onto the expressway and up the hills, and the petroleum based > motor/generator provides all the electricity that you need while cruising. > > Obviously my intuition here is wrong. Is there a 20 word explanation of > why? I can do it in two words: your'e right. You have sketched the hybrid rationale. Mike Carrell > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 09:48:56 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VHmkB0017457; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:48:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VHmhE5017423; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:48:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:48:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=yLNddvRV/u4jr0+k2tSRb1Wk4G3lRd2r1hqT4a5Z8/JfXbwVb6o51KfgfekiXWULLtroa4Q5yFfn27GPTo5c4bYy1rJWBmSn0ti6Pp9I4BUEr1CimsWtANwAvpbEotB3ZUWmWDiD0TcVh4tC/G+7iyifuQ1yKbuUlQgpjnvXDKU= ; Message-ID: <20050331174835.40717.qmail web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:48:35 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Re: Making a Hybrid Work To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-625397806-1112291315=:37779" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-625397806-1112291315=:37779 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii A good description of the Prius transmission: http://home.earthlink.net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/ContinuouslyVariableTransmission.htm some minor errors re: 'direct current'; but, it explains the mechanics well. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-625397806-1112291315=:37779 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

A good description of the Prius transmission:

http://home.earthlink.net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/ContinuouslyVariableTransmission.htm

some minor errors re: 'direct current'; but, it explains the mechanics well.

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Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --0-625397806-1112291315=:37779-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 10:53:18 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VIr5B0015484; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:53:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VIr2Wo015423; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:53:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:53:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:54:19 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:46 PM 3/31/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 13 Mar 2005 17:53:41 >-0900: >Hi Horace, > >I'm having some trouble understanding this formula. If it's meant >to give the relationship between the absolute height of the water >surface at any radius, then it seems to say that at w=0, h= h0, >i.e. h0 is the height of stationary water in the tank. > >>Correction follows. Sorry! >> >>The shape of the final equilibrium surface is: >> >> h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 > >However when the water rotates, a dip forms at the middle, which >can drop right down to the floor of the tank at sufficiently high >w. However, according to the formula, for any w > 0, h > h0 for >all R, since the first term is always positive. Therefore, the >formula either doesn't represent what I thought it was meant to >represent, or it doesn't describe reality. It apparently doesn't mean what you think it means, and that's my fault. The surface given by: h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 is only meant to represent a *final* state (or initial state) surface where no water is falling at all and the rotational velocity at every radius is a fixed constant w. This really only applies to the case where the water is in a tank which rotates so viscosity is not important except maybe for considerations of how the vortex *reaches* this final state wherein the angular velocity is constant at every radius. Viscosity is not an issue when this defines the initial state of a rotating tank assuming the angular velocity is desired to be constant at every radius in the initial state. I provided this because it shows precisely why water may not go down the drain at all, and how a final state can arise in which some or all the water might not be able to go down the drain The case for an "active" vortex tank that is well in progress of emptying, where the tangential speed is proportional to 1/r, and the vertical speed to 1/r as well, is shown in Feynman's *Lectures on Physics*, Vol II, 40-10 ff. Fig. 40-12 is a great drawing of such a tank, showing the surface contour of a sample vortex. In this case the surface is a rotation of: h = k/R^2 + h0 which I noted earlier. I've undoubtedly confused the situation by mixing assumptions regarding viscosities and angular velocity distributions, and looking at initial, intermediate, and final states separately. I thought I was making the concept simpler to follow by these assumptions. I see no way to make analysis of the intermediate states simple. The initial and final states are fairly easy to analyze though, assuming in those states w = K*R for some constant K. Regardless the function used to represent angular velocity, say w = F(R), a *final* surface results which has a perimeter height and a radius at h=0 that is equal to the hole radius. Given a function w = G(R) that represents the initial angular velocity as a function of R, there is a corresponding surface. If the radius of that surface at h=0 is larger than the drain radius then no water can go down the hole at all, and F(R) = G(R). You expressed concern about how it is water can not go down the drain. This describes why. The surface contour does not extend within the drain radius. If there is not sufficient energy from gravity (mgh) to make the water go down the drain, it can not go down the drain (assuming a rotating tank or zero viscosity.) If the water is viscous, however, the viscosity gradually reduces the angular velocity of water remaining in the tank and thus it all can go down the drain. However, the assumption that rotational energy plus heat increases by more than the potential energy being expended is then invalid. There is therefore no reason to think free energy is available. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 11:00:21 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smmsp localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VJ0FB0019181; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:00:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VIjeC7012189; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:45:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:45:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01a101c53621$86402aa0$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <20050331153716.66987.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Making a Hybrid Work Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:43:25 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" > http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.04/hybrid.html This is an insightful article !! (cuts no Koerners, so to speak) and it highlights one marketing niche that Detroit totally bumbled (sadly, as many of us would like to buy an American-made Hybrid car. The average fuel economy of all 2004 US vehicles was actually 6 percent less than it was in 1987 ! and that is after averaging in the surprisingly large number of Priuses... (Pria? Prii?). US automakers say they're just giving the market "what it demands" - which sounds like some more of the same BS and "your-fault" scape-goating that we've heard before. The new Ford hybrid (licensed from Toyota) is a step in the right direction and has to be commended for this initiative, kind-of, but after all the Explorer, Expedition and Excursion pain it has inflicted on thousands of unsuspecting consummers and suburbanites over the past few years, one should wait and see if Ford has pulled it off. Koerner writes, "Who but a tree hugger or a Hollywood politico would pay $20,000 for a four-door hatchback with a puny 1.5-liter engine? Toyota COO Jim Press has heard the question before, and he jumps on it. "How much premium are people paying today for their Hemi V-8?" he asks, referring to the 345-horsepower engine that's an option on the Dodge Ram pickup. The answer: about $1,000. "What do they get out of that? They can go faster from stoplight to stoplight. [with a stop at the filling station, the cynic might add] Why wouldn't they pay for a more fuel-efficient engine that gives you better performance but also saves the planet?" In my neighborhood (which is not average but not treehuggers either, just environmentally conscious) we unoffically counted 7 new Prius about of about 31 new cars since 2004. Most of the rest were super-size-it SUVs, largely driven by soccer-moms-on-cell-phones (a threat to all law-abiding citizens) - quite a contrast. BTW Koerner says " Some fanatics even drive shoeless to be in better touch with the accelerator. For true masters, 50 miles per gallon is a piker's score; they shoot for a consistent 60. When it comes to gas mileage, Prius owners can make TiVo users and Mac addicts seem blasé." My neighbor who did the unoffical count (and is a Prius evangelist) has gotten ~60 mpg from the start and he says "it's not that hard." There is one little trick (undocumented feature) that allows the car to run on battery power for longer. BTW Toyota announced two years ago the launch in Japan of the made-in-U.S.A. VOLTZ, built by Toyota and General Motors at their joint plant in California. They may offer a hybrid version here. I am hoping that the incredible popularity of the Prius will mean that they will built something like it in the USA soo and then people who want to "buy American" can feel doubly socially conscious. According to a local paper, Toyota is indeed considering shifting some of its hybrid car production to the United States because of extraordinary demand. It will not be long before they are the number 2 US manufacturer. Currently, the only hybrid made in the US is the Ford Escape Hybrid SUV... and it does seem to cut some Koerners. http://www.hybridcarguide.com/news/2004/10/ Jones The fact that there is now a popular web site devoted to hybrids tells you a lot about this trend. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 11:40:25 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VJeGB0004643; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:40:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VJeDJl004617; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:40:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:40:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20050331143739.02bfb6d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:39:55 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Does anyone here speak Portuguese? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: If anyone here at Vortex speaks Portuguese, please contact me. I am preparing a version of the "Student's Guide" which someone kindly translated into in Brazilian Portuguese. I need to translate two of the captions. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 12:57:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VKvcB0007518; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:57:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VKvF22007300; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:57:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:57:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes msn.com From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: A post that may prove of interest... Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:57:01 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Mar 2005 20:57:02.0319 (UTC) FILETIME=[301ACFF0:01C53634] Resent-Message-ID: <0_SUmD.A.6xB.pQGTCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vo, Ron Bourgoin posted the comment below with regard to the Nigerian World article -- on another web site. Mark I just read Professor Sam Okoye's piece about cold fusion. I'm beginning to get a suspicion that neutrons might be fusing, which is perhaps why the wide variation in experimental results. Let's look briefly at what could be happening: n+n+n+n -> He-4 + heat Recent years have seen dineutron, trineutron, and tetraneutron structures. Not much is known about them, but I'm beginning to suspect a tetraneutron decays by emitting two beta negatives. If we could intentionally by use of neutron generators collide neutron beams, we ought to see some tritium and helium-3 and helium-4 products. Who's going to try it? Ron Bourgoin Edgecombe Community College Rooky Mount, N.C. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 13:05:42 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VL5aB0012044; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:05:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VL5U3j012015; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:05:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:05:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050331210421.00686c88 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:04:21 +0000 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: ...water into wine... Resent-Message-ID: <6VwJYB.A.q7C.aYGTCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Consider the following mechanical arrangement. Set B (3 rods) Set A (2 rods) I==========================I I===========================I I --->I I==========================I<--- I===========================I I I==========================I A set of two rods (Set A) is forced against a set of three rods (Set B) If the strain of A is 3.dL then the strain of B is 2.dL The strain energy of Set A is 2.[(3.dL)^2] = 18.dL The strain energy of Set B is 3.[(2.dL)^2] = 12.dL So set A contains 1.5 times more strain energy than Set B. Now the forces on the interface plate represented by the five I's in a vertical line are equal and opposite. Consider a small displacement (d2L) of this interface to the left. Set B will expand and take up 3.[(2.d2L)^2] = 12.d2L units of strain energy from the environment. Set A will contract and give out 2.[(3.d2L)^2] = 18.d2L units of strain energy to the environment. So the net strain energy given out to the environment by the movement to the left is 6.d2L and a movement to the left is exothermic. Conversely the net strain energy taken in from the environment by a similar movement to the right is 6.d2L and a movement to the right is endothermic. Most importantly, the ratio of the tensile strain energy to the compression strain energy is 18/12 = 1.5 --------------------------------------------------------- Now the above analysis is the first half of understanding the Graneau effect. The second half is the recognition that, from a Systems viewpoint water, is in the same state as very dry clay - but at a low hierarchy in the Diphase Hierarchical system (references 1, 2, and 3)* As clay dries the Fluid Phase goes into relative tension, the Solid Phase into relative compression. The focus point for the pore water tension is pF6+ which is an enormous tension of the order of 15000 psi. At some point in the drying out of clays pore water in relatively lower pF regions within the clay evaporates and leaves a thin skin of very high pF pore water enveloping the grains like a thin continuous coat of streched rubber. In effect the three dimensional clay mineral grains are being squeezed together by a two dimensional skin resembling a very convoluted rubber bubble. Eventually the skin-like moisture layer ruptures, and the compression in the clay mineral grains is explosively released as described in a previous posting. Graneau's experimental results have provided the quqntitative experimental evidence which opens one's eyes to the fact that liquid water has the same structure. However obvious it may be now, without the experimental results it is very unlikely that one would make one of necessary James Burke's Connections. For liquid water the within molecular phase (groupings 1 to N molecules) are in compression by the between group phase skin which is in tension. The fact that liquid water reaches its maximum density at 4 degrees Centigrade which then starts to decrease, is the clearest evidence that the intermolecular skin phase is at the point of collapse. In bulk water negative feedback from surrounding regions means that the collapse of liquid water to the much larger volume of ice is gradual and contained. In the Graneau effect it sudden and uncontrolled. Now the intermolecular quasi-Fluid skin phase or internal surface is in two dimensional tension. The infra-molecular quasi-Solid Phase on the other hand is in three dimensional compression. But this is the case considered in the example at the top of the page, each dimension being represented by a rod. It is worth repasting Graneau's experimental results from a previous post. ================================================ http://users.erols.com/iri/FutureEnergyTech.html Cold Fog Discovery Many other systems exist today, in a research, development, or theoretical stage, which also convert potential energy into useful work. The first example is the "Cold Fog" invention of Dr. Peter Graneau from Northeastern University that converts chemical bond energy into kinetic energy. Intermolecular bond energy in water is an available amount of energy estimated at 2.3 kJ/g. When injected with a high voltage capacitor discharge of 39.8 Joules, normal rainwater is accelerated into a cold fog that loses about 31.2 Joules of low-grade heat and a comparable amount (29.2 Joules) in fog kinetic energy output. As reported in the Journal of Plasma Physics,[3] the output energy thus exceeds the input energy by about 100% creating a 2-to-1 overunity condition favorable for reduction to a motorized conversion system. Capacitor Input Energy: 39.8 joules ! V Fog Kinetic En. <- Cold Fog -> Low Grade Heat 29.2 Joules Accelerator 31.2 Joules ================================================ The maximum theoretical yield of Kinetic Energy to Capacitor Input energy is 60.4/39.8 = 1.52 But this is the ratio of the exo-energetic contraction of the inter-molecular phase to the endo-energetic expansion of the infra-molecular phase. So the boundary efficiency of input energy to output energy is 1.5 In the boundary case the 40 odd joules of the capacitor input is completely taken up by the endo-energetic expansion of the infra-molecular phase. And the 60 joules of Kinetic Energy is completely provided by the exo-energetic contraction of the inter-molecular phase. It would be interesting to know if Graneau had any idea of the significance of the input_energy/output_ energy ratio. I suspect he probably didn't - and if this is the case, the results he presents are a credit to his experimental technique. Now that the very simple mechanism underlying the Graneau effect is understood there is every incentive to improve the efficiency and start using water as a fuel. If Horace's suggestion of triggering the Beta-aether/ Casimir/ZPE re-energisation of the exhaust water by microwave pans out, there is even the potential to create a closed system which runs on the pressure difference between the different hierarchical layers of B-a/C/ZPE in the same way as a Stirling engine runs on differential Compreture pressures. Now that would be something. 8-) Cheers, Frank Grimer. ===================================== haec cum dixisset expuit in terram et fecit lutum ex sputo et linuit lutum super oculos eius et dixit ei vade lava in natatoria Siloae quod interpretatur Missus abiit ergo et lavit et venit videns ===================================== ========================================= * REFERENCES ========================================= GRIMER, F.J. and R.E.HEWITT. The form of the stress-strain curve of concrete interpreted with a di-phase concept of material behaviour. Structure, Solid Mechanics and Engineering Design. Proceedings of the Southampton 1969 Civil Engineering Conference. (M.Te'eni, Ed.), Wiley Interscience, pp 681 - 691, 1972. CLAYTON, N and F.J.GRIMER. A General Approach to the Strength of Materials. Speculations in Science and Technology, Vol.1, No.1, pp5 - 13, 1978. CLAYTON, N and F.J.GRIMER. The di-phase concept with particular reference to concrete. Developments in Concrete Technology, Vol.1, F.D.Lydon, ed, Applied Science Publishers, England pp.283-318. ================================================ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 14:02:53 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VM2dB0009347; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:02:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VM2TWa009280; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:02:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:02:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Making a Hybrid Work Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 08:02:11 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20050331153716.66987.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050331153716.66987.qmail web51706.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j2VM2HB0009166 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:37:16 -0800 (PST): Hi, [snip] >http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.04/hybrid.html "Which means that if there's going to be a hybrid in every garage come 2020, Toyota must lead the way." There may not be any oil come 2020. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 14:13:31 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VMDIB0013742; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:13:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VMDG4G013724; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:13:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:13:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:14:22 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:46 PM 3/31/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 13 Mar 2005 17:53:41 >-0900: >Hi Horace, > >I'm having some trouble understanding this formula. If it's meant >to give the relationship between the absolute height of the water >surface at any radius, then it seems to say that at w=0, h= h0, >i.e. h0 is the height of stationary water in the tank. > >>Correction follows. Sorry! >> >>The shape of the final equilibrium surface is: >> >> h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 > >However when the water rotates, a dip forms at the middle, which >can drop right down to the floor of the tank at sufficiently high >w. However, according to the formula, for any w > 0, h > h0 for >all R, since the first term is always positive. Therefore, the >formula either doesn't represent what I thought it was meant to >represent, or it doesn't describe reality. I think I misunderstood the problem you note! The error is not in the above formula, but in stuff you snipped. It is merely a sign error. Following is a repeat derivation of H0 with corrections: The shape of the final equilibrium surface is: h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 where h is height, w is angular velocity, g = 9.80665 m/s^2, and R is radius. Using R1 as the radius of the hole, R2 as radius of of tank, we have h = 0 at the radius R1 when equlilbrium is established and no more water can go down the hole. So: 0 = (w^2/2g) x (R1)^2 + h0 h0 = - 2g/( w^2 x (R1)^2) <========= Note the sign change! The final height Hf of the water at the edge of the tank is thus: Hf = (w^2/2g) x (R2)^2 - 2g/( w^2 x (R1)^2) <==== Note subtraction! The above assumes that the initial angular velocity is small. If the angular velocity of the initial condition is high then the initial condition integration of angular momentum and energy also has to be outside the boundary established by: h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 It is possible that in the initial condition all the water will be located outside the radius of the hole, and thus no water can go down the hole at all. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 14:42:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j2VMgeB0025601; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:42:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j2VMgaLx025573; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:42:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:42:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:43:54 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: <77cLx.A.dPG.czHTCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you for your patience Robin. Here's one more try at a complete answer. At 9:46 PM 3/31/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 13 Mar 2005 17:53:41 >-0900: >Hi Horace, > >I'm having some trouble understanding this formula. If it's meant >to give the relationship between the absolute height of the water >surface at any radius, then it seems to say that at w=0, h= h0, >i.e. h0 is the height of stationary water in the tank. The variable h0 is merely a constant that allows positioning the parabolic surface cross section at the right elevation. > >>Correction follows. Sorry! >> >>The shape of the final equilibrium surface is: >> >> h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 > >However when the water rotates, a dip forms at the middle, which >can drop right down to the floor of the tank at sufficiently high >w. However, according to the formula, for any w > 0, h > h0 for >all R, since the first term is always positive. The h0 above is negative. >Therefore, the >formula either doesn't represent what I thought it was meant to >represent, or it doesn't describe reality. The confusion here is my fault, partly due to the fact the value of h0 is negative. It is given by: h0 = - 2g/( w^2 x (R1)^2) where R1 is the radius of the drain hole. The surface given by rotating: h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 about the tank axis is only meant to represent a *final* state (or initial state) surface where no water is falling at all and the rotational velocity at every radius is a fixed constant w. This really only applies to the case where the water is in a tank which rotates. When considering such a tank viscosity is not important except maybe for considerations of how the vortex *reaches* this final state wherein the angular velocity is constant at every radius. Viscosity is not an issue when defining the initial state of a rotating tank assuming the angular velocity is desired to be constant at every radius in the initial state. Note that the above surface is only meaningful when h > 0. There is no water in the tank above radii where h <= 0. The hight of the water at the perifery of the tank where R = R2, is given by: h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 - 2g/( w^2 x (R1)^2) I provided this formula because it shows in a precise way why water may not go down the drain at all, and how a final state can arise in which some or all the water might not be able to go down the drain. The case for an "active" vortex tank that is well in progress of emptying, where the tangential speed is proportional to 1/r, and the vertical speed to 1/r as well, is shown in Feynman's *Lectures on Physics*, Vol II, 40-10 ff. Fig. 40-12 is a great drawing of such a tank, showing the surface contour of a sample vortex. In this case the water surface is a rotation of: h = k/R^2 + h0 which I noted earlier (different H0 though.) I've undoubtedly confused the situation by mixing assumptions regarding viscosities and angular velocity distributions, and looking at initial, intermediate, and final states separately. I thought I was making the concept simpler to follow by these assumptions. I see no way to make analysis of the intermediate states simple. The initial and final states are fairly easy to analyze though, assuming in those states angular velociy is constant at every radius. Regardless the function used to represent angular velocity, say w = F(R), a *final* surface results which has a perimeter height and a radius at h=0 that is equal to the hole radius. Given a function w = G(R) that represents the initial angular velocity as a function of R, there is a corresponding surface. If the radius of that surface at h=0 is larger than the drain radius then no water can go down the hole at all, and F(R) = G(R). You expressed concern about how it is water can not go down the drain when there is insufficient energy to obtain the assumed vortex inner angular momentum. This discussion hopefully helps understand why. When there is insufficient potetnial energy, the surface contour does not extend within the drain radius. If there is not sufficient energy from gravity (mgh) to make the water go down the drain, it can not go down the drain (assuming a rotating tank or zero viscosity.) If the water is viscous, however, and the tank does not spin too, the viscosity gradually reduces the angular velocity of water remaining in the tank and thus it all can go down the drain. However, the assumption that rotational energy plus heat increases by more than the potential energy being expended is then invalid. There is therefore no reason to think free energy is available. Good grief. I hope I got that all right for a change! 8^) I'm very busy with tax reporting so all the vortex activity of late came at a bad time for me. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 17:27:50 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j311RdB0028237; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:27:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j311RZYf028206; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:27:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:27:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Mark S Bilk To: "Vortex List" Subject: New Iwamura Transmutation Data Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:01:07 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0503311727230L.18949 isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: New to me at least. Found in sci.physics.fusion The summary below is based on this 2.5MB pdf: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IwamuraYobservatiob.pdf With the two previous transmutations, Cs -> Pr, and Sr -> Mo, 4 deuterons were added, but in this one, Ba -> Sm it's 6. It casts new light on the question of whether the deuterinos were aggregating before they combined with the test element, or whether they added to it sequentially. If a group of 4 again came in this time, then two more, together or separately, would have added. Or maybe it was just a group of six. Or maybe the increment of 4 in both of the first two experiments was just a coincidence. New Energy Times http://www.coldfusioninfo.com/news/2005Mitsubishi-Answer-Lietz.htm Mitsubishi's Answer to Nuclear Waste Low Energy Transmutations are Gaining Scientific Ground by Haiko Lietz When Yasuhiro Iwamura presented his lecture (http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IwamuraYobservatiob.pdf) on the last International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science (http://www.newenergytimes.com/iccf11/iccf11.htm) in Marseille, France, you could have heard a pin drop. The Japanese researcher presented research results from Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. The corporation does much more than building cars. If their results are right, the Japanese have also developed a technology within the last ten years, that, under certain conditions, will physically transmute chemical elements into new elements. According to established theory this should be impossible. Iwamura explains the method which involves a special heavy metal sandwich: "It is composed of pure palladium and a calcium oxide complex layer. On one side of the palladium complex we have D2 gas at about 1 atmospheric pressure. On the other side we keep a vacuum condition. If we put an element on the palladium complex that is specifically targeted to be transmuted, and we make D2 gas permeate through the palladium complex, after about one week or ten days we observe the transmutation of this element." If there are, for example, caesium atoms on the palladium sandwich, those gradually disappear and atoms of the element praseodymium appear during the experiment. After about four days there are more praseodymium atoms than caesium atoms. The praseodymium nucleus is heavier than the caesium nucleus by each four protons and neutrons. It seems as if caesium nuclei somehow reacted with ions of the gas and formed praseodymium nuclei. Iwamura and his colleagues have published their results in the renowned Japanese Journal of Applied Physics in 2002 (http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IwamuraYelementalaa.pdf). Since then they have successfully repeated the experiment over 50 times. In the same way they were able to transmute strontium into molybdenum. Also in recent new experiments, one element disappears and another appears. "Currently we involve a barium transmutation experiment. We observe the transmutation of barium into samarium. And this samarium has a non-natural isotopic ratio. At first we performed a natural barium experiment, and after that we used enriched barium-137. If we use barium-138, we get samarium-150. And if we use barium-137, then we will have samarium-149. In other words, we observe different mass distributions by controlling the initial mass distribution", says Iwamura Depending on which initial element is used, the yielded element is determined. In the barium experiment, a non-natural samarium isotope is formed. In the caesium experiment it is not just the isotope, but even the element that is rare in nature. That is why the researchers are sure that the new-found elements are not the result of contamination of the system. It is noticeable that caesium and strontium are products of nuclear fission, which are radioactive depending on the isotope. Is Mitsubishi conducting these experiments to try to remediate nuclear waste? "At this day it is very difficult to say, but it might be possible. Mitsubishi Heavy Industry has a very wide range of products including nuclear power plants. Our research into this field may yield commercial applications," Iwamura says. The Japanese financial newspaper Nikkei-Shinbun has recently rated the Mitsubishi research as the third most important technology trend. The effect has been confirmed by the universities of Osaka and Shizuoka, the Japanese "SPring-8" synchrotron radiation facility, and the Italian National Institute of Nuclear Physics. The head of the Italian transmutation study group, Francesco Celani, gives high grades to the Japanese experiment: "This is a very, very clean experiment. Iwamura makes several cross checks about his results. Not only one, but four different kinds of analysis. Contaminations, that are the weak point in any kind of transmutation experiment, are almost ruled out. I think this is the way that all of us have to follow." Celani now wants to start a joint Italian/Japanese basic research program into transmutations, as a second step of which they also plan to transmute radioactive caesium and strontium. The project is set at 25 Million Euro over a five year period. According to Celani, high-ranking political circles in Italy are "very positive" about it. At the Marseille conference, a total of eight additional transmutation experiments involving researchers from Canada, Italy, Romania, Russia and the US Navy were presented. Scott Chubb from the Naval Research Laboratory said, "the materials control and measurements in the Mitsubishi work are so well done that it is hard to believe that it could be wrong." ©New Energy Times TM All Rights Reserved 2002-2003 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 17:49:04 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j311mrB0006372; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:48:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j311mooM006346; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:48:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:48:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Mark S Bilk To: "Vortex List" Subject: Re: New Iwamura Transmutation Data Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:47:41 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0503311748420M.18949 isis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In-Reply-To: <0503311727230L.18949 isis> Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 Something I've never understood about this work: why does he pump the D2 gas through the element to be transmuted, and then through the alternating layers of CaO and Pd that make it all happen? The deuterium "activated" by the CaO layers would have to flow backwards, against the pressure differential, to get to the element it's adding to. On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 05:01:07PM -0800, Mark S Bilk wrote: >The summary below is based on this 2.5MB pdf: >http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IwamuraYobservatiob.pdf From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 18:30:17 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j312U8B0022776; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:30:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j312U5SY022748; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:30:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:30:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c53662$aff74540$4f037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: Vortex mystery Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:29:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C53630.6460C200"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.8 required=4.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C53630.6460C200 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C53630.6460C200" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C53630.6460C200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blankand another link on vortex http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ufophysics/vortex.htm Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C53630.6460C200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
and another link on vortex

http://homepa= ge.ntlworld.com/ufophysics/vortex.htm

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C53630.6460C200-- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C53630.6460C200 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000f01c53662$aed819a0$4f037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C53630.6460C200-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 18:49:58 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j312nnB0030643; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:49:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j312nlnY030626; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:49:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:49:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <2.2.32.20050401024841.006be224 pop.freeserve.net> X-Sender: grimer2.freeserve.co.uk pop.freeserve.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 02:48:41 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Grimer Subject: Re: New Iwamura Transmutation Data Resent-Message-ID: <-YdNQD.A.feH.KbLTCB ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:47 pm 31-03-05 -0800, you wrote: >In-Reply-To: <0503311727230L.18949 isis> >Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 > >Something I've never understood about this work: why does he >pump the D2 gas through the element to be transmuted, and then >through the alternating layers of CaO and Pd that make it all >happen? The deuterium "activated" by the CaO layers would have >to flow backwards, against the pressure differential, to get >to the element it's adding to. > This suggests that the activation inverts its relative phase characteristic. If water flows into a glass then air flows out, etc. Presumably the un-activated deuterium is at negative pF, the activated deuterium is at positive pF. (see Infinite Energy, Vol 8, 1ssue 46, pp. 28-33, 2002) Frank Grimer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 19:29:29 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j313TJB0010026; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:29:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j313THEI010012; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:29:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:29:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <424CC0A1.7020904 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:31:45 -0700 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K. Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Iwamura Transmutation Data References: <0503311748420M.18949 isis> In-Reply-To: <0503311748420M.18949 isis> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58832 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I would like to offer an explanation for this confusion. The CaO layer has only two purposes. It acts as a diffusion barrier and it allows a nuclear-active structure to grow within the deposited Pd layer. The diffusion barrier allows the D concentration in the deposited Pd layer to achieve a higher value than would be possible in its absence. Since the reaction is related to the fourth power of the D concentration, the ability to detect a reaction is very sensitive to D concentration in the nuclear active region, hence the composition must be maintained as high as possible. CaO, as well as other materials, is able to initiate growth of a structure that is nuclear active. As yet, this structure is unknown. I throw this idea out without justification, which can be provided by further discussion. Ed Mark S Bilk wrote: > In-Reply-To: <0503311727230L.18949 isis> > Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 > > Something I've never understood about this work: why does he > pump the D2 gas through the element to be transmuted, and then > through the alternating layers of CaO and Pd that make it all > happen? The deuterium "activated" by the CaO layers would have > to flow backwards, against the pressure differential, to get > to the element it's adding to. > > On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 05:01:07PM -0800, Mark S Bilk wrote: > >>The summary below is based on this 2.5MB pdf: >>http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IwamuraYobservatiob.pdf > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 19:31:23 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j313V6B0010991; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:31:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j313V46f010937; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:31:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:31:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002301c5366b$34f15940$4f037841 xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: water into wine Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:30:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01C53638.E9670B00"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp (2004-01-11) on mailadmin X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-98.6 required=4.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, J_CHICKENPOX_43,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.64-cvtv_w9f4wgtp Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58833 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C53638.E9670B00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0020_01C53638.E9670B00" ------=_NextPart_001_0020_01C53638.E9670B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankTensile strength of concrete. Interesting to watch a skilled bricklayer use a " certain" type trowel = to remove very old mortar from a used brick. notice very carefully that he strikes the brick near the old mortar and = " shazzaam!!" the mortar instantly releases from the brick. Once had an old timer say he had a certain trowel that " sang" when he = struck the brick a certain way so he could feel the brick resonate in = his hand.and the morter would release.=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0020_01C53638.E9670B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Tensile strength of concrete.
 
Interesting to watch a skilled bricklayer use a " certain" type = trowel to=20 remove very old mortar from a used brick.
notice very carefully that he strikes the brick near the old mortar = and "=20 shazzaam!!" the mortar instantly releases from the brick.
Once had an old timer say he had a certain trowel that " sang" when = he=20 struck the brick a certain way so he could feel the brick resonate in = his=20 hand.and the morter would release. 
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0020_01C53638.E9670B00-- ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C53638.E9670B00 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001e01c5366b$33f3bf60$4f037841 xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C53638.E9670B00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 20:47:24 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j314lIbe008410; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:47:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j314kxmr008224; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:46:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:46:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <023f01c53674$25cfaa80$d0bcfea9 jonesb9pacbell> From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <002301c5366b$34f15940$4f037841 xptower> Subject: Re: water into wine Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:34:52 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58834 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay writes, "Interesting to watch a skilled bricklayer use a " certain" type trowel to remove very old mortar from a used brick. notice very carefully that he strikes the brick near the old mortar and " shazzaam!!" the mortar instantly releases from the brick. Once had an old timer say he had a certain trowel that " sang" when he struck the brick a certain way so he could feel the brick resonate in his hand.and the mortar would release." Richard, ...and all Vos who are interested in that fine-line between art, skilled-craftsmanship and science... especially as is evidenced in the building trades... and matter of fact - ancient building trades, going back centuries. I lived for a while in San Miguel de Allende in central Mexico, and can attest to one of the most amazing and relatively unknown skills in bricklaying... a skill and a beautiful end-result that literally has to be seen in order to be believed. Unless you have seen these brilliantly constructed dome roofs which are common everywhere there, from middle income houses up -- and this is in the middle of very active earthquake and volcano zones, then you will think that my description of how they are built is some kind of "fish story." Some of the Colonial buildings, which are all over the highlands of central Mexico are over 400 years old and have withstood earthquakes in the mid-8 range - yet they are shallow domed roofs going up many floors - called "boveda" ceilings and made from local brick and mortar according to ancient recipes with no reinforcement whatever. I did a quick google and found some images at the bottom of this page. http://www.vrbo.com/13340 OK that part about shallow unreinforced brick domes is believable, as domes and arches are inherently strong, even shallow ones made of brick - especially with thick adobe walls to carry the downward stress. But here is the kicker. These domes are built, layer on layer working from the 4 corners of the room (only works with 4 corners) to the center in thin layered stacked arches (large rooms, some over 1000 sq ft) and get this... NO FORM whatever is used !! The bricklayers (bovedistas who start doing this when they are pre-teens) work fast in teams of 8-10, standing on flimsy scaffolds, using no wood or other form under the dome to hold the advancing brickwork, but have developed from ancient times this very tacky glue-like mortar which has to be mixed in small batches continuously a few kilos at a time and then used within 5 minutes or less... it is all natural, not very strong except in compression and dries instantly. The mortar has a special name I can't recall but is mostly composed of "cal" (their name for the local lime .... which BTW gives California its name- i.e. lime-kiln) and this tacky mortar will hold an advancing row of unsupported brick against gravity on a very slight angle long enough for the whole-layered-arc row to be put in place over ten minutes or so - after which it holds on its own, as an nearly flat arch... but prior to that you have all these bricks pretty much suspended in space held by the gluey cal - it has to be seen to be believed. OK that's my building-trade-tale for this date but it's no April-fools joke either... the scientific 'angle' in this is that there must be something in the local limestone which provides this amazing gluey property .... quien sabe? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 22:55:54 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j316tnYv018552; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:55:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j316tWVV018463; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:55:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:55:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vortex mystery Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 16:55:23 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id j316tRYv018398 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58835 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:43:54 -0900: Hi Horace, [snip] >>I'm having some trouble understanding this formula. If it's meant >>to give the relationship between the absolute height of the water >>surface at any radius, then it seems to say that at w=0, h= h0, >>i.e. h0 is the height of stationary water in the tank. > >The variable h0 is merely a constant that allows positioning the parabolic >surface cross section at the right elevation. > >> >>>Correction follows. Sorry! >>> >>>The shape of the final equilibrium surface is: >>> >>> h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 >> >>However when the water rotates, a dip forms at the middle, which >>can drop right down to the floor of the tank at sufficiently high >>w. However, according to the formula, for any w > 0, h > h0 for >>all R, since the first term is always positive. > >The h0 above is negative. > If h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 and h0 is negative, then for w=0, h=h0 and is thus also negative. How does one end up with a negative height? Or should the original formula perhaps be: h = h0 - (w^2/2g) x R^2 ? (Since the second term in this version is positive, the height becomes less for higher w and also for smaller R, both of which make sense). In short, is h the distance up from the bottom of the tank, or the distance down from the surface? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Mar 31 23:49:19 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j317nCQH003476; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:49:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j317n85P003452; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:49:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:49:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request eskimo.com using -f X-Sender: hheffner mail.mtaonline.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:50:24 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex mystery Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/58836 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:55 PM 4/1/5, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:43:54 >>>However when the water rotates, a dip forms at the middle, which >>>can drop right down to the floor of the tank at sufficiently high >>>w. However, according to the formula, for any w > 0, h > h0 for >>>all R, since the first term is always positive. >> >>The h0 above is negative. >> >If h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 and h0 is negative, then for w=0, h=h0 >and is thus also negative. How does one end up with a negative >height? As I stated in the last post, the above surface is only meaningful when h > 0. There is no water in the tank above [at] radii where h <= 0. If w=0 then h<=0 everywhere because no water will stay in the tank. No angular momentum is involved. Any water in the tank is not in equilibrium as assumed - it will all run out. Please note again that the coreolis force is ignored throughout. > >Or should the original formula perhaps be: > >h = h0 - (w^2/2g) x R^2 ? > >(Since the second term in this version is positive, the height >becomes less for higher w and also for smaller R, both of which >make sense). > >In short, is h the distance up from the bottom of the tank, or the >distance down from the surface? The variable h is the distance up from the bottom of the tank. When h=0 or h<=0 then there is no water above the radius at which h is computed. The variable h at final equilibrium is a function of R, R1, and w, where R1 is the radius of the drain hole. The initial or final surface, assumed to be in equilibrium with w constant at every radius, is concave upwards. The coefficient of R^2 is thus positive. In the initial condition, h0 can be anything depending on how much water is in the rotating tank. This h0 does not affect the *curvature* of the surface, however, which is only a function of w, g, and R, assuming the drain hole is plugged, and w is constant over all radii. The variable h0 changes as the water drains from the tank. The equation describing the water surface changes as well, but the final surface should return to the form h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 + h0 for a rotating tank, assuming that viscosity forces w to be uniform across all radii, where in the *final* equilibrium: h = (w^2/2g) x R^2 - 2g/( w^2 x (R1)^2) and w is the final angular velocity of the water and tank, R1 is the drain radius, and R is a given radius. Regards, Horace Heffner