From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 02:34:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA13232;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 02:29:18 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 02:29:18 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 02:25:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Off-topic: The Days Dylan Rocked the Bay
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980701022230.19872A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"h9fIi3.0.gE3.i5Wcr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20230
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

 
   In late September of 1989 , I attended the Bob Dylan concert
 which was held at the outdoor Greek Theater on the UC Berkeley
 campus. The late afternoon weather was perfect , a warm sun but
 with an excellent bay breeze that kept everyone's cool. 
 
    "The Pogues"  opened for Bob , and did a great job . After the
 "roadies" had assembled Dylan's equipment , everyone was just
 waiting on the stone bleachers when there seemed to be some kind
 of disturbance just behind where my date and I were seated . 
 
 Yelling . 
 
 We looked behind us and there was this fellow holding up a sign . 
 Some kind of peace symbol and slogan the exact words I can't
 recall. He determinedly walked from wherever he came from behind
 us and down towards the stage. 
 
 He shouted as he walked: 
 
 "Our People will never be free until the apparatus of the State is
 Dismantled forever!" 
 
  Part of Dylan's act , I'm sure , but what a strange sentiment for
 the time it was expressed . The Late Reagan era. 
 
  About a month after that the Bay Area (CA) enjoyed the 7.1
 magnitude earthquake which helped dismantle part of the apparatus
 for a time , until it was repaired down to the last stitch or so
 quite a while later. 
 
  I know a lot of people did not enjoy the earthquake . But I did . 
 
 It was "fun" . 
 
  Where was I when it hit ? 
 
  Near Los Gatos driving south on Highway 17 (had just gottem off
 from work at my job as a reliability engineering tech at WYSE ) . 
 My 1978 Corvette felt like something failed dramatically somewhere
 in the steering or I had hit a weird oil slick or something . 
 
  So I pulled off the highway onto the grass in the center divider
 and got out and looked at the wheels of my car .  After seeing
 nothing unusual about them , I noticed that others behind me had
 done the same thing and were examining their vehicles in the same
 bewildered way . 
 
 The challenge after that was driving the `vette home over "the
 Hill" pass which had suffered some very spectacular damage ,
 during several aftershocks . Fun. 
 
 I made it home (Santa Cruz) ok , a little late , but none the
 worse for wear.. 
 
 Anyhow , Here's the words to one of my all time favorite Dylan
 tunes as best I can make out from the vinyl LP. 
 
 Sing away if you know the music. 
 
 Jim Ostrowski
 
 
                     Maggie`s Farm
 
    Well I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more ... 
    No, I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more ... 
 
    I get up in the mornin' ,fold my hands and pray for rain
    Got a head full of ideas, drivin me insane
    It's a shame the way she makes me scrub the floor
    Well I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more ... 
 
    Well , I ain't gonna work for Maggie's brother no more
    Well , I ain't gonna work for Maggie's brother no more
 
    He hands you a nickle and he hands you a dime,
    and he asks you with a grin "are you havin' a good time?" 
    and he fines you every time you slam the door... 
 
    Nah, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's brother no more.. 
 
    Well, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's Pa no more.. 
    Nah, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's Pa no more.. 
 
    He puts his cigarrette out in your face just for kicks,
    an' he stares out of a window that's made out of bricks
    and the National Guard stands outside his door.. 
    Naw, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's Pa no more.. 
 
    Well,I ain't gonna work for Maggie's Ma no more.. 
    Nah, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's Ma no more.. 
 
    She talks to all her servants about Man and God and Law
    Everybody says she's the brains behind Pa
    She's sixty but she says she's twenty-four
    Nah, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's Ma no more.. 
 
    Nah, I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more.. 
    Nah, I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more.. 
 
    I try my best to be like I am
    But everybody wants ya to be just like them
    they say "sing while you sow"  but I get bored.. 
    Nah, I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more.. 
 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 05:05:54 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA16890;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 04:59:46 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 04:59:46 -0700
Message-Id: <199807011157.HAA02266 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: 1950 "Anode Effect" paper
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 98 07:59:31 -0000
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"ewSxL2.0.p74.nIYcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20231
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

> No.  Light flashes, steam, etc. are not necessarily signs
>of over unity.  
>   Suggest you look closer and consider exactly what was
>discussed in that article.

Mitch,

If you read my posting carefully, you will see that I do not  make claim 
of O/U based on visible effects, but you cannot ignore these either -- 
they mandate explaining. Do you think they are chemical explosions? If 
so, please indicate what you think they are.

Let me be clear: The article is only interesting, essential background -- 
NOT the original basis of our interest. The ICCF7 report is what 
triggered the interest! NO calorimetry or transmutation searches were 
done in 1950.

Best, Gene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 06:36:50 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA14676;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 06:33:57 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 06:33:57 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <359A3AB9.817F5EF0 css.mot.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 08:33:45 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New Innovations - Biochips
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980701021617.26647D-100000 college>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"BI0MG3.0.7b3.4hZcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20232
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John Schnurer wrote:
>         In 1992... to 1994 Dave Tume and myself designed and tested the
> modules for 'wet nets' ... we invneted these chemical cells to serve the
> function of the weights in neural networks.  Quite effective.

Sounds interesting.  What were the results of your investigations?  Effective
in what regard?



John E. Steck
--------------------------------o]{:
  Senior Mechanical Engineer
  Rapid Tooling Applications
  Motorola CSS, Libertyville

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 08:08:36 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23008;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:05:12 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:05:12 -0700
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:05:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Merriman <barry math.ucla.edu>
Message-Id: <199807011505.IAA25686 joshua.math.ucla.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: 1950's-based CF experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"ZKkus1.0.Pd5.d0bcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20233
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


The new experiment sounds intriguiging, but....

what ever happened to the Case self-sustainer that was all the rage 
3 weeks ago?

what ever happened to the pope device that was hot the month before
that.

It seems to me that popular Cold Fusion is in the experiment du-jour
mode, hopping to the next big thing whil ethe last one silently
fades away. 

As for the new experiment, immediate start up and violent reaction
smell like chemistry to me. Its not hard to be "O/U" based on
chemical potential for a few minutes.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 08:17:44 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10082;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:15:47 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:15:47 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980701111237.00ba88a0 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 11:12:37 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Cost of CF equipment
In-Reply-To: <199806301408_MC2-51C7-FB30 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"puhZ21.0.RT2.XAbcr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20234
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Ross Tessien writes:

>     Well, if you wanted to get amatuer vortexians to produce hot fusion
>     reactions, what chances do you think they would have?  Zero.  The
>     equipment that is needed is too expensive, and without it you cannot
>     even achieve what little has been achieved in that arena.

   Not disagreeing with the CF issues here, but don't underestimate what
can be done in a basement.  In the late sixties I was reproducing published
hot fusion results in my basement.  But:

   1) The work was really concerned with studying the properties of
plasmas,       not creating fusion, so I never used deuterium or tritium.

   2) The equipment was purchased by the company my father and I worked for.
Maxwell mylar capacitors, etc. didn't come cheap.

   3) The basement had been equipped as a lab by my father when he was
working as an independent consultant.  The power supplies for the first
Univacs, and for some of the tracking radars at Cape Canaveral were
designed and built there.  Not your average basement.  It had a faraday
cage, 15 kilowatt DC supplies, etc.

   4) We eventually had to do some extra work to reduce the noise and light
that was getting out the windows, even though the house was half-timbered
Tutor, so the basement walls were granite.  (Most of our experiments were
in the 15 kJ/pulse range and, the noise problem only occured when a
capacitor failed, but that is a different story.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 08:31:18 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA00436;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:27:07 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:27:07 -0700
X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 1950 "Anode Effect" paper
Message-Id: <19980701152617.FOYB10210 Default>
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:26:17 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"N139N3.0.l5.3Lbcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20235
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rick Monteverde wrote:

>Dumb Question: is boiling water the same as evaporating the water, in terms
>of *power*? Sure the net energy involved ends up the same, but isn't the
>violent mixing and frothing allowing the water to evaporate much faster due
>to agitation and increased surface area exposure to the surrounding
>open-ended air supply? I bet I could hurl water out of a beaker off a cliff
>on a warm day and it will "boil" away before hitting the ground, involving
>much more energy transfer than the power in my arm or the PE of the
>altitude could account for.
>
>Were any of the experiments done in a closed system with calorimetry?
>Otherwise someone's going to claim this is just a big electric powered
>dunking-bird!

The calorimetry we used was not definitive.  I think that some kind of
arrangement where the mixture of gas and droplets coming off of the surface
are condensed and then the temperature of the escaping gas from the
condenser measured to determine water content in this saturated vapor could
work.  This would act as a 'bookkeeping' check to see if the liquid missing
from the reaction chamber could be accounted for, which could help to
determine the quality of the calorimetry and give some basis for determing
how much heat is lost out the sides of the apparatus.  The condensate could
be collected and checked for salt content by pH and compared to known
molarity-pH values to arrive at a figure for how much entrainment/droplet
ejection contributed to the condensate.  IOW, if the condensate is almost
pure water, entrainment is negligable.

If someone can come up with a form of absolute calorimetry as opposed to the
usual method of calibration with a Joule heaters, go for it.  In the time
available, I was not able to rig a suitable Joule heater.  Both approaches
would give us a handle on how good our results are.

Mitchell Swartz says that the glow and violent boiling do not prove O/U and
I certainly agree.  However, we are not insisting these phenomena are proof
of anything, but maintain this is an indication that something very
interesting is happening and should be further investigated, particularly in
view of the anomalous behavior of plasmoids that are quite possibly forming.
Under high voltage conditions, there are surges (flashes) that could be
plasmoid formation.

If the O/U ratio is anything like the claim that Ohmori, et al. base on
rates of heating, determination should not be that difficult. That is a very
simple method that I think I may have observed once, but did not repeat.
That was a run where the alcohol thermometer bulb was destroyed by the
cathode touching it, so cannot be called a reliable result (Gene did not see
that one as it happened).  The putative O/U effect may only exist when the
real 'fireworks' is occurring (greater than at least 160Vdc) and keeping the
area of the cathode small is critical to achieving it (~60-80 sq. mm total
surface area). Things get rather exciting.  BTW, ripple was as much as about
7 volts (at 120Hz), until I replace a string of capacitors with a Big
Kahuna.  We used a Radio Shack bridge rectifier, which, if memory serves,
was rated at 25A and 250V.

Ed Wall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 08:45:23 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA13294;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:43:14 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:43:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 1950's-based CF experiment
Message-Id: <19980701154023.FUGI10210 Default>
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:40:23 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"_W2Ld.0.cF3.Gabcr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20236
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 08:05 AM 7/1/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>The new experiment sounds intriguiging, but....
>
>what ever happened to the Case self-sustainer that was all the rage 
>3 weeks ago?

The chamber leaks and Case is taking care of business.  Gene is pursuing it
and that is all that can be expected of him.
>
>what ever happened to the pope device that was hot the month before
>that.

I did some work on that.  The replacement finally arrived and was apparently
damaged in shipping, as the squirrel cage blower motor and fan had broken
loose from the cage.  There were other problems with wiring (Pope and
Perkins claim no skill as electrical people) that had to be fixed.  It was
run and found to have a C.O.P. > 1.0 several times, but nothing as good as
expected.  Gene Perkins (I think) was making plans to visit and try some
things.  It took some real shock to get the blower into found condition, so
possibility of problems on the rotor setup from the same cause exists.
>
>It seems to me that popular Cold Fusion is in the experiment du-jour
>mode, hopping to the next big thing whil ethe last one silently
>fades away. 

Or, you could look at it as making the best efforts up the most promising
avenues and not presuming you know it all.  It would be an ideal world where
every anomaly could be reduced to well established rules and I commend you
for your efforts on striving for such a state, but mere skepticism does
nothing in this regard.
>
>As for the new experiment, immediate start up and violent reaction
>smell like chemistry to me. Its not hard to be "O/U" based on
>chemical potential for a few minutes.
>
Let's generate some facts and logic.

Ed Wall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 09:03:50 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15302;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:58:31 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:58:31 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980701120211.00a17de0 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 12:02:11 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: The first cold fusion bomb?
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
In-Reply-To: <008d01bda448$fdc52c00$208f85ce default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"DJVGo.0.Qk3.Yobcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20237
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:02 AM 6/30/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>Was that before or after the Hindenburg BURNED
>in New Jersey in 1937?  :-) there was NO DETONATION, and the conflagration
>was mostly above the Blimp. The smoke was from O2 burning of the
metals->fabrics. Look up the Pictures.

   And there were lots of survivors.  The Hindenburg fire was a disaster of
the same type as Three Mile Island.  The press made a huge media fuss
without ever understanding what they were seeing.  (Chernobyl was a much
bigger disaster as nuclear disasters go, as was Windscale, and Enrico Fermi
in Detroit, or a dozen others.  But there was no significant media coverage.)

>Thus 4*51,593/36 = 5,733 Btu/lb for a PURE HYDROGEN-OXYGEN MIX. If mixed
>with air the O2 drops to 21% and you get about 1,000 BTU/lb for the
Fuel->oxidizer-air mix.

>The BTUs/lb don't mean much if you don't have an oxidant, TNT is a mix of
>toluene and three NO3 oxidizer groups in the molecule , thus about 4500
>btu/pound. Don't forget,one BTU (1055 joules)can do 778 ft-lbs of work!

    But TNT doesn't contain enough oxidizer to completely oxidize itself.
As far as I can remember, TNT yields CO + H2O + C4 (soot) + NOx.  I think
that the energy released from exploding (not burning) TNT is closer to 800
BTUs/lb.  If exploded in air you do get some enhancement from the further
oxidation at the wavefront, but not much.

   The shuttle tank accident scenario is somewhat different. The STMEs run
hydrogen rich to get a lower effective molecular weight in the exhaust, so
you still have more fuel than oxidizer.  But, if you had that max credible
disaster (tank rupture on the pad at ignition), what happens is that the
LH2 and LO2 mix and explode.  Then since the speed of sound is higher in
the H2/H20 mix than in air, the wavefront is constantly resupplied with
hydrogen, which burns increasing the effective blast energy.  So you do get
the equivalent of a much higher effective energy.

>The Butane-Propane "Bombs" were dropped and when the gases were dispersed
>to the right air-fuel mix, it was ignited. Made a good way to
>clear the jungle in "Nam". This WOULD NOT WORK with H2. Being so much
>lighter than air it would rise up and disperse too fast. Try it.
  
   Been there, done that.  (Not to Vietnam, my brother did that, and I went
to 4th Armored Division in Germany.)
 
   Fuel-air explosions are really tricky beasts.  My favorite mixture was
(red) phosphorous, barium peroxide, potassium perclorate, and aluminium
powder.  The "daisy cutters" used sodium clorate, aluminium powder, and a
rubber binding agent.  The trick is to come up with a mixture which
explodes creating a fuel rich cloud which for which a rich explosive
mixture with air won't burn.  (But will explode.)

   As for hydrogen, I did manage some fuel-air explosions by pouring liquid
H2 on a flat surface near an igniter.  Again, a trick.  The vaporized H2 is
denser than air at first.  As it mixes, it warms up, but when you get
(down) to an explosive mixture, it will explode.


                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 09:26:49 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25098;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:22:15 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:22:15 -0700
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:22:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortcor-list eskimo.com
Subject: Don't you dare say "levitator!"
In-Reply-To: <199807010606.XAA29271 www1.halcyon.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980701091457.24531G-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"LJwA73.0.m76.q8ccr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20238
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


> You have a new entry in your guestbook:
> ------------------------------------------------------
> On your home page, as you scroll down and get to Some Maglev Links,
> Under *NASA LARGE GAP levitator.  Please note that the Term Levitator is
> TRADEMARKED by Superconductive Components Inc.  Thank you.  Bryan
> Jeffries <bjeffries SuperconductiveComp.com> Columbus , Oh USA -
> Tuesday, June 30, 1998 at 23:06:12 (PDT) 
> ------------------------------------------------------

Quite a reprehensible action of an out-of-control legal department,
wouldn't you say?  

If you dare to tell your students that your superconductive demonstration
is a "levitator", watch out, they might come after you!  Next I suppose
that Microsoft will warn us against using their trademarked term
"software", and Nike will try to make you put (tm) after all uses of the
word "swoosh." 

Anyone besides me want to send a complaint to these people?

Besides bjeffries superconducitvecomp.com, 
I find these addresses elsewhere:
sales superconductivecomp.com, jrgaines@superconductivecomp.com

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 09:30:59 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18599;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:28:13 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:28:13 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199807011623.MAA26525 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: 1950's-based CF experiment
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 98 12:29:36 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"S2nyC3.0.PY4.OEccr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20239
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Barry writes,


>The new experiment sounds intriguing, but....
>
>what ever happened to the Case self-sustainer that was all the rage 
>3 weeks ago?
Ah.. vintage "Barry".... wise guy as ever....

Case is working on it intensely. It has proved more difficult than he -- 
or we -- had originally hoped to get it self-sustaining. (And if the 1% 
chance that the effect is not real excess energy is true, then of course 
it will never self-sustain). Nonetheless, he has achieved more positive 
runs and is seeing on the order of 15 C rise above baseline. One run was 
36C above, he says. He has made insulated vessels that have very low heat 
loss, but for a combination of reasons he has not YET been able to 
self-sustain. He expresses confidence that he WILL be able to do it. 
Things take time... Others right now are looking for helium in Case 
cells. 
>
>what ever happened to the pope device that was hot the month before
>that.

We here have measured on the order of 15% excess with a new unit 
delivered here that was regularly getting 200% to 400% in at Kinetic 
Heating Systems in recent weeks. 15% *here* is not adequate to be sure of 
O/U, but the data from Georgia seems very solid. We can't see how a 
mistake could have been made, but we certainly are trying to get to the 
bottom of what environmental/ quality of water differences cause these 
test differences. Unlike past claimants, Pope and Perkins are working 
diligently to get to the bottom of the difference too. They will visit 
here within a week or so to help out. We did discover that we could 
easily measure a 200 watt resistance heater calibration input on top of 
running Kinetic Furnace -- 3.6 KW input. So resolution for 15% is 
adequate -- accuracy is not good enough to call 15% apparent  excess real 
O/U. 

Unlike the hot fusion program, which calls major publicly-funded 
conferences to discuss its problems in getting more money from 
government, all this work comes out of the hides of private individuals.

>
>It seems to me that popular Cold Fusion is in the experiment du-jour
>mode, hopping to the next big thing while  the last one silently
>fades away. 

Bullshit, Barry...Nothing has faded away. Scientists and inventors are 
working to find the variables that control these extraordinary processes. 
This is not hype, it's science.

>
>As for the new experiment, immediate start up and violent reaction
>smell like chemistry to me. Its not hard to be "O/U" based on
>chemical potential for a few minutes.

Yes, it might be chemistry, but it might well not be either. We have 
transmutation evidence from Mizuno/Ohomori. Besides, other *related* 
systems I have personally checked out under non disclosure were clearly 
over-unity in a big way with long duration. The problem with Barry is 
that he pretty much finds the Book of Physics to be closed. He is not 
prepared to believe that Fizzix could be standing on deep quicksand, 
which in my view it is.

Barry, what happened to the hot fusion power plant we were supposed to 
have 20 years ago? Or was it supposed to be ready in 2050? Isn't this hot 
fusion program some kind of scam to keep professors continually employed 
on a Government project that will never deliver what it has been 
promising for decades? The program has done a magnificent job of conning 
Congress, conning everybody into an infinite money supply for this white 
elephant. 

Do you mean to tell me that your hectic summer professorial schedule does 
not allow you a day or two to at least look at this Ohmori/Mizuno 
phenomenon? Hell, even the infamous non-experimentalist Rich Murray, who 
gets most of his kicks looking into a mirror, might get into this type of 
experiment... but I probably hope for too much.

With all that said, I still think Barry is a jolly good fellow....

Best wishes, Gene


Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302

	Phone: 603-228-4516
	Fax:   603-224-5975
        editor infinite-energy.com

		      http://www.infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 10:00:51 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13566;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:57:44 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:57:44 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <359A6A74.C09B94F0 css.mot.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 11:57:24 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Don't you dare say "levitator!"
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980701091457.24531G-100000 eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"yizag3.0.nJ3.6gccr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20240
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

William Beaty wrote:

> Anyone besides me want to send a complaint to these people?

Don't waste your time.  Will cost them a lot of money to unsuccessfully try and
prove 'economic loss' for your casual, not-for-profit use.  Bryan Jeffries
probably just did his first web seach using 'levitator' as the keyword <g>. 
Classic newbie behavior.  Responding to him will only give him something to do
and make him feel important.  I would just ignore the message and leave it on
your site just to irritate the crap out him.  Superconductive Components has no
inexpensive recourse other than to send you hate mail, and to what end?  It's
not like you are making any money off it.  Unless it's registered snail mail,
you can always claim your were never notified.  Best part is, if they send a
lot of email notices, you can register a complaint with their ISP against them
for sending SPAM!  ha ha ha.



John E. Steck
--------------------------------o]{:
  Senior Mechanical Engineer
  Rapid Tooling Applications
  Motorola CSS, Libertyville

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 10:01:24 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13678;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:58:06 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:58:06 -0700
Message-ID: <359A6B1E.AC0D168A ro.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 12:00:14 -0500
From: "Patrick V. Reavis" <preavis ro.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Don't you dare say "levitator!"
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980701091457.24531G-100000 eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"GXxf01.0.RL3.Sgccr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20241
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



William Beaty wrote:

> > You have a new entry in your guestbook:
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> > On your home page, as you scroll down and get to Some Maglev Links,
> > Under *NASA LARGE GAP levitator.  Please note that the Term Levitator is
> > TRADEMARKED by Superconductive Components Inc.  Thank you.  Bryan
> > Jeffries <bjeffries SuperconductiveComp.com> Columbus , Oh USA -
> > Tuesday, June 30, 1998 at 23:06:12 (PDT)
> > ------------------------------------------------------
>
> Quite a reprehensible action of an out-of-control legal department,
> wouldn't you say?
>
> If you dare to tell your students that your superconductive demonstration
> is a "levitator", watch out, they might come after you!  Next I suppose
> that Microsoft will warn us against using their trademarked term
> "software", and Nike will try to make you put (tm) after all uses of the
> word "swoosh."
>
> Anyone besides me want to send a complaint to these people?
>
> Besides bjeffries superconducitvecomp.com,
> I find these addresses elsewhere:
> sales superconductivecomp.com, jrgaines@superconductivecomp.com

Bill,
J.R. Gaines is the president of Superconducting Components, so you might wish
to direct your respons to him.

--
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 11:04:17 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02705;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:00:41 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:00:41 -0700
Message-ID: <000b01bda519$bbb971a0$e5b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: The first cold fusion bomb?
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:57:31 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"sMaDW1.0.6g.8bdcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20242
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Robert I. Eachus wrote:

>
>But TNT doesn't contain enough oxidizer to completely oxidize itself.
>
Nice treatment, Robert.

This is very true: Tri-NitroToluene (TNT)C7H7N3O6 only has enough oxygen for
about 1,000
btu/lb at best. I'm surprised that it even burns fast.   :-)

This puts H2 + O2 at 5,700 btu/lb (and faster burning) at the top of the
explosive energy list.

Small wonder that a car battery filled with
H2 + O2 from charging can be a veritable bomb.

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 11:58:37 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05948;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:54:51 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:54:51 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:48:22 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Ostrowski's comments
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807011451_MC2-51E9-6312 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"JskoE.0.oS1.vNecr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20244
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; >INTERNET:jimostr victor1.mscomm.com; >INTERNET:tessien@oro.net

Jim Ostrowski writes:

     I'm sure all the subscibers on vortex will really appreciate this sort
     of initiative on your part , Jed .  After all ,if it helps YOUR SYSTEM
     keep track of things , who could possibly object ?

Well, Jim, I have been doing it this way since e-mail was invented, before
CompuServe was founded. You are the first to complain. Ross Tessien asked me
to preserve the "Re:" segment of the message headers, so I'll try to do that
from now on. I try to chop the message headers to preserve space, because
CompuServe message headers are short. I can't promise Ross I won't change the
thread though . . . I enjoy doing that.

Anyway, as long as we nitpicking, let me suggest that you stop putting spaces
in front of punctuation marks. Make it: ". . . object?" instead of ". . .
object <space> ?" Look it up in any handbook on typing.


I said that *amateurs* cannot make diamonds without proper equipment in their
basements, but I added that I know a retired prof from Boston U. who makes
diamonds in his basement. Ostrowski misunderstands:

     Thank you for defeating the theorem you propose in one sentence  with a
     fact you report in the next <space> .

Prof. Fang is no amateur and his basement is as well equipped as an average
lab was 20 years ago. It just happens to be in the guy's house. For that
matter, Stan Pons performed the first modern CF experiments in his basement.
People who read the literature, learn enough electrochemistry, and buy or
steal enough equipment lose their amateur status. It is no long a "garage"
experiment when you have $100,000 worth of high tech test equipment stuffed in
your house. It borders on a tax deduction.

I mentioned that I suffer from a mild disability which makes it difficult for
me to thread a needle, or occasionally when I am exhausted, to hold a coffee
cup without spilling. This prompted snide comments from Ostrowski making fun
of religion and small motor control disability. Such comments are totally
inappropriate to this forum. Ostrowski will not apologize I'm sure, so I do
not apologize for saying that I hope he manages to pour a fresh hot cup of
coffee on his lap someday.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 11:56:16 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22522;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:52:11 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:52:11 -0700
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:48:10 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: 1950 "Anode Effect" paper
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807011451_MC2-51E9-6311 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"7sHLW3.0.SV5.ILecr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20243
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Mitchell Swartz writes:

     The effect occurs on the ANODE.

     Ohmori's process (180 watts, tungsten cathode, carbon anode, Na2S04 and
     K2CO3 0.5M) takes place at the cathode with purported isotopic changes
     at that location.

     Is that not true?

Quoting the Kellogg paper: "Aqueous Cathode-effect. In all of the experiments
and hypotheses discussed above there is no factor which is peculiar to anodes
alone. If the hypotheses are correct, then one could predict that a cathode
which evolved gas and which is operated at a high current density should show
a similar behavior . . .  Such is found to be the case." (Page 140)


     Please explain how the en bloc loss of gas at the anode is either
     overunity.

I am not sure what this sentence means, but the loss of electrolysis gas (O2
and H2) has nothing to do with it. Enthalpy is measured by the temperature
rise in the fluid and vaporization of water. Elsewhere, in a message to Gene,
you claimed that we think the incandescence indicates excess energy. This is
incorrect.


     Please explain how the en bloc loss of gas at the anode is what Dr.
     Ohmori reports at the other electrode.

See above quote.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 12:20:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA30767;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:12:22 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:12:22 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980701150924.007d0d70 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 15:09:24 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: 1950 "Anode Effect" paper
In-Reply-To: <199807011451_MC2-51E9-6311 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"fntiq2.0.AW7.Feecr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20245
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


   At 02:48 PM 7/1/98 -0400, Jed wrote:
>Mitchell Swartz writes:
>
>     The effect occurs on the ANODE.
>
>     Ohmori's process (180 watts, tungsten cathode, carbon anode, Na2S04 and
>     K2CO3 0.5M) takes place at the cathode with purported isotopic changes
>     at that location.
>
>     Is that not true?
>
>Quoting the Kellogg paper: "Aqueous Cathode-effect. In all of the experiments
>and hypotheses discussed above there is no factor which is peculiar to anodes
>alone. If the hypotheses are correct, then one could predict that a cathode
>which evolved gas and which is operated at a high current density should show
>a similar behavior . . .  Such is found to be the case." (Page 140)


   The effect does not appear to me, based upon what I've seen
to be what Ohmori reports and does.   


>     Please explain how the en bloc loss of gas at the anode is either
>     overunity.
>
>I am not sure what this sentence means, but the loss of electrolysis gas (O2
>and H2) has nothing to do with it.


   That is incorrect, Jed.  The anode effect is the en bloc loss
of gas at high gas loss.


> Enthalpy is measured by the temperature
>rise in the fluid and vaporization of water. Elsewhere, in a message to Gene,
>you claimed that we think the incandescence indicates excess energy. This is
>incorrect.

   Incorrect again, Jed.  What was asked was why you said
the anode effect was over unity.   On what basis?  
What you claim is NOT what was said.

  Nor was the question answered.

   Mitchell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 12:38:05 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA04146;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:33:15 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:33:15 -0700
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:33:17 -0700
Message-Id: <199807011933.MAA06327 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Don't you dare say "levitator!"
Resent-Message-ID: <"rdnkT.0.h01.wxecr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20246
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Bill;


"Levitator", and "levitator", are not the same word in trademark lingo.
Whether or not you capitolize the L determines if this is a proper trademark
brand name, or, an adjective, or a generic noun depending on usage.  Even if
they have trademarked the word, if you use it in terms of common parlance,
as opposed to being associated with a product, they have nothing to say.

BTW, if they are using the term as a noun, then they will loose their
trademark status, if anyone wished to challenge them on it.  Kleenex almost
lost that fight because common parlance adopted the the usage of Kleenex as
a noun, ie, "Hand me a Kleenex".  The only way you can maintain ownership of
a trademark brand name is if you use it exclusively as an adjective.  ie, in
about the late 60's or 70's, Kleenex was being challenged by other tissue
manufacturers, and they made a quick dance to adopt the new terminology,
"Kleenex brand facial tissues", forcing other companies to call their
product, "facial tissue", something that no one knew about at the time.  So
consumers continued to buy the only brand they knew, because they knew what
was in the box.  

Of course that didn't take long to figure out.  The point being, if they
trademarked a term, whether it is written with caps or not, the usage etc.
are all part of the aspects of the trademarked term.

Ross Tessien





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 13:32:24 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16404;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:28:31 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:28:31 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980701162948.00ceeb60 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 16:29:48 -0400
To: rmforall earthlink.net
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Schultz: Mallove: Robert Park's Cover-Up of Clarke's
  Message 6.30.98
Cc: Vortex-L eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <3599B8FC.6480 earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"FcOzE.0.n_3.Tlfcr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20247
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:20 PM 6/30/98 -0500, Rich Murray wrote:
>Perhaps you would be willing to give the name of the Fellow of the 
>Royal Society to whom Clarke alluded as being a CF believer, and the
>name of the Cold Fusion device that comes with a money-back guarantee?

   The first part is easy, Arthur C. Clarke.  I think that the money-back
reference was to the CETI kits.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 13:41:57 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26988;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:37:54 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:37:54 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980701162805.00cfcd70 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 16:28:05 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: The first cold fusion bomb?
Cc: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "George" <gsparb@juno.com>
In-Reply-To: <000b01bda519$bbb971a0$e5b4bfa8 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"iSdP52.0.Ub6.Vufcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20248
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:57 AM 7/1/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>Robert I. Eachus wrote:

>This is very true: Tri-NitroToluene (TNT)C7H7N3O6 only has enough oxygen for
>about 1,000 btu/lb at best. I'm surprised that it even burns fast.   :-)

   I thought it was C7H7N3O9, but as I said, you lose some of the oxygen to
oxides of nitrogen.  Note also, since ammonium nitrate got dragged in, that
ammonium nitrate is often mixed into TNT to increase the yield.  NH4NO3 is
a net oxidizer.

>This puts H2 + O2 at 5,700 btu/lb (and faster burning) at the top of the
>explosive energy list.
>
>Small wonder that a car battery filled with H2 + O2 from charging can be a
>veritable bomb.

    The problem there is that even a small explosion sends sulpheric acid
flying.

    But I laugh every time I read some new horror article about some teen
finding bomb making instructions on the evil Internet.  I just hope that
using good instructions means that they create a safer device than
otherwise.  H2 + O2 is soooo easy to make, and is about the nastiest
explosive known.  (Actually that title should be reserved for Xe03, but
that requires a lot more work.)


                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 14:49:00 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22751;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:45:14 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:45:14 -0700
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:41:50 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: 1950 "Anode Effect" paper
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807011744_MC2-51E1-E209 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"tsSRr2.0.LZ5.ftgcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20249
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Mitchell Swartz writes:

     The effect does not appear to me, based upon what I've seen to be what
     Ohmori reports and does.

It sure looks the same to me.


     Incorrect again, Jed.  What was asked was why you said the anode effect
     was over unity.  On what basis? What you claim is NOT what was said.

NOT what was said?!? By who?!? I said it! Here, I'll say it again: the anode
effect reported by Kellogg is probably over unity when applied to a cathode
by Ohmori and others. As Kellogg explains, it works with both electrodes. He
should have called it the "electrode effect." I have no idea whether an anode
would produce excess heat or not. If it did, I suppose that would mean the
effect is not CF, or hydrogen plays no role CF, or oxygen works just as well.

"On what basis" is a dumb question. On the basis of calorimetry, of course,
like I said. Water temperature and vapor! What other basis is there?


If you have any other questions I suggest you re-read Kellogg and Ohmori,
rather than posting message here directed to me. I will ignore any further
messages from you on this topic, because I know from past experience that you
are never satisfied with my answers and my interpretations.

For my part, I cannot understand you half the time because you use cryptic
terminology and incorrect grammar and punctuation. It took me three readings
to puzzle out, "I've seen to be what Ohmori reports." You've seen to be? Use
commas! If you want people to understand what the hell you are talking about,
I suggest you express yourself in plain English and complete sentences. And
use the first person pronoun! You ask mystical and apparently self-evident
questions, like "on what basis?" when it is plain as a pikestaff the basis is
calorimetry. I don't get it. What is the point? You make weird, confusing,
passive-voice assertions without apparent subjects like: "What you claim is
NOT what was said." *I* claimed it and *I* said it myself -- right here -- and
so did Mizuno, Ed Wall, and a few others.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 15:25:59 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01860;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:21:34 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:21:34 -0700
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 15:21:40 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: 1950's-based CF experiment
In-reply-to: <199807011623.MAA26525 mercury.mv.net>
X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <199807012221.PAA28793 smtp1.asu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"JxMrB1.0.xS.jPhcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20250
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 12:29 PM 7/1/98 -0400, you wrote:

> Besides, other *related* 
>systems I have personally checked out under non disclosure were clearly 
>over-unity in a big way with long duration....

>Best wishes, Gene
>

Lets see, now. I believe it was Wharton (I hope I am correct; I didn't keep
the post) that referred to sources inside CETI he can't disclose that gave
him information that CETI had conducted calorimetric tests showing that
their effect is not real and they are keeping quiet about it. This was
followed by a diatribe from Jed and possibly others to the effect that
unsubstantiated statements like that have no place here.

Forgive me, Gene, but I think your statement above falls in the same category.

--Lynn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 15:37:19 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05767;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:32:38 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:32:38 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980701183006.007d0100 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 18:30:06 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: 1950 "Anode Effect" paper
In-Reply-To: <199807011744_MC2-51E1-E209 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"vyES83.0._P1.4ahcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20251
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 05:41 PM 7/1/98 -0400, Jed wrote:

>     Incorrect again, Jed.  What was asked was why you said the anode effect
>     was over unity.  On what basis? What you claim is NOT what was said.
>
>NOT what was said?!? By who?!? I said it! Here, I'll say it again: the anode
>effect reported by Kellogg is probably over unity when applied to a cathode
>by Ohmori and others. 


   So YOU said it.  Fine. I asked on what basis, and you
ignore to answer.  OK.  This is consistent with your past
conversations.

======================================

>As Kellogg explains, it works with both electrodes. He
>should have called it the "electrode effect."

  That is not exactly what he says.

======================================


> I have no idea whether an anode
>would produce excess heat or not. If it did, I suppose that would mean the
>effect is not CF, or hydrogen plays no role CF, or oxygen works just as well.
>
>"On what basis" is a dumb question. On the basis of calorimetry, of course,
>like I said. Water temperature and vapor! What other basis is there?
>


   Actual measurements versus your guesswork.  There apparently
is not data to show the anode effect is O/U.  


======================================

>If you have any other questions I suggest you re-read Kellogg and Ohmori,
>rather than posting message here directed to me. I will ignore any further
>messages from you on this topic, because I know from past experience that you
>are never satisfied with my answers and my interpretations.

  You are inaccurate again, and no doubt will confuse others as you
have dont about vertical calorimetry and other aspects of cold fusion.

======================================

>For my part, I cannot understand you half the time because you use cryptic
>terminology and incorrect grammar and punctuation. It took me three readings
>to puzzle out, "I've seen to be what Ohmori reports." You've seen to be? Use
>commas! If you want people to understand what the hell you are talking about,
>I suggest you express yourself in plain English and complete sentences. And
>use the first person pronoun! You ask mystical and apparently self-evident
>questions, like "on what basis?" when it is plain as a pikestaff the basis is
>calorimetry. I don't get it. What is the point? You make weird, confusing,
>passive-voice assertions without apparent subjects like: "What you claim is
>NOT what was said." *I* claimed it and *I* said it myself -- right here --
and
>so did Mizuno, Ed Wall, and a few others.
>
>- Jed


  Jed, you are so full of BS.  You ignore all the postings and
focus on the English.  
  Jed says I said, ""I've seen to be what Ohmori reports."
The post said, "The effect does not appear to me, based upon 
  what I've seen to be what Ohmori reports and does."

  Furthermore, a scientist would never take this
out of context as Jed has done to support his notion.
Here is what I said, and only a moron would take single
line out of context, remove half the sentence and lecture
me.

 Here are the posts, and the sentence of which Jed
removed half is near the bottom below:

 ================ past posts

  "I discussed this interesting, but not quite
very relevant, paper years ago on spf, and perhaps in one
of the early issues of the Cold Fusion Times.
  The effect occurs on the ANODE.
  Ohmori's process (180 watts, tungsten cathode, carbon anode,
Na2S04 and K2CO3 0.5M)
takes place at the cathode with purported isotopic
changes at that location.
   Is that not true?

  Please explain how the en bloc loss of gas at the anode
is either overunity.
 Please explain how the en bloc loss of gas at the anode
is what Dr. Ohmori reports at the other electrode.

   I have the paper, and your interpretation is not what
is shown in his picture within that paper, if memory serves.
Also, the gas evolutions are different in chemical
character and rate at the two electrodes.

   There is no evidence for o/u; or rather as much as
for the Potatov device.  Merely stating it may be
sufficient for some like yourself, Jed, but is not scientific
and therefore not acceptable to me.

   The effect does not appear to me, based upon what I've seen
to be what Ohmori reports and does.   

>I am not sure what this sentence means, but the loss of electrolysis gas (O2
>and H2) has nothing to do with it.

   That is incorrect, Jed.  The anode effect is the en bloc loss
of gas at high gas loss.

> Enthalpy is measured by the temperature
>rise in the fluid and vaporization of water. Elsewhere, in a message to Gene,
>you claimed that we think the incandescence indicates excess energy. This is
>incorrect.

   Incorrect again, Jed.  What was asked was why you said
the anode effect was over unity.   On what basis?  
What you claim is NOT what was said.


  ========== end of references

  As noted, the scientific questions are answered.
Perhaps they will be later.  <g>

   Mitchell Swartz



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 15:52:37 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05564;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:49:07 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:49:07 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980701184108.007da1c0 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 18:41:08 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: 1950 "Anode Effect" paper
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"zIM253.0.pM1.Xphcr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20252
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


oooops.  That should have said:


  As noted, the scientific questions are NOT answered.
Perhaps they will be later.  <g>

   Mitchell Swartz




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 16:18:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06963;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:12:26 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:12:26 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199807012302.TAA15888 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Schultz: Mallove: Robert Park's Cover-Up of Clarke's  Messa
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 98 19:04:47 -0000
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Bn9mI1.0.ji1.N9icr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20253
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>The first part is easy, Arthur C. Clarke.  I think that the money-back
>reference was to the CETI kits.
>
>                                        Robert I. Eachus

Bob is incorrect on both counts. Clarke may now be Sir Arthur C. Clarke, 
but he is not a member of the Royal Society, as far as I know. I suppose 
he is talking about one of his many contacts. I can assure you this is a 
real person. Clarke does not make up people on serious  matters such as 
these.

 CETI kits did NOT come with a money back promise, but the Cincinnati 
Group cell - adveritised in IE for some time now, does come with such a 
promise. Its performance has been confimed in Italy and by Trenergy, Inc. 
in Salt Lke City -- others too.

Best, Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 16:18:24 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17619;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:13:55 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:13:55 -0700
Message-Id: <199807012311.TAA17244 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: 1950's-based CF experiment
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 98 19:13:33 -0000
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"2BAzg3.0.3J4.nAicr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20254
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Lets see, now. I believe it was Wharton (I hope I am correct; I didn't keep
>the post) that referred to sources inside CETI he can't disclose that gave
>him information that CETI had conducted calorimetric tests showing that
>their effect is not real and they are keeping quiet about it. This was
>followed by a diatribe from Jed and possibly others to the effect that
>unsubstantiated statements like that have no place here.
>
>Forgive me, Gene, but I think your statement above falls in the same 
>category.
>
>--Lynn
>
>
Fine, think anything you want, Lynn. I measured the damn device and you 
didn't. It is real. In fact, such measurements (OF HIS OWN DOING) are 
precisly what made Dr. Lou Furlong joiin CETI as Technical Director. He 
had 30 years with Exxon. 

Anyone who suggests that *CETI* thinks it excess heat effect is not real 
is blowing smoke from a warm dark place.   Of all the preposterous 
conspiracy stories, this takes the prize.

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 16:38:28 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA08672;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:35:38 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:35:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 1950 "Anode Effect" paper
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 23:28:12 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <359ac37f.77558459 mail-hub>
References: <3.0.5.32.19980701183006.007d0100 world.std.com>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980701183006.007d0100 world.std.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"pcK49.0.Q72.9Vicr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20255
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Wed, 01 Jul 1998 18:30:06 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
[snip all] (Note: private email).
Hi Mitchell,

Careful, your intelligence is showing ;). When dealing with Vortex
generally, and with Jed in particular, you need to aim the level of
your language at roughly a twelve year old (actually this is good
practice when writing anything, as that's about the age when we have
all learned 99% of out basic grammar). Your writing tends to be a bit
too concise (imagine this coming from me :]), and you frequently
assume that everyone else shares your insights. Most don't, and many
view things from totally different points of view, so that one usually
needs to spell everything out rather long-windedly. (So was that long
winded enough :)?

Best Regards,

Robin.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 19:28:47 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06008;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 19:25:24 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 19:25:24 -0700
Message-ID: <359AE21A.D21 earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 20:27:54 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Murray: incandescent W power input? 7.1.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"EQaQ93.0.oT1.K-kcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20256
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July 1, 1998

Hello all,  I wonder how variable the resistance, current, and voltage
are during the spectacular reactions in the incandescent W cell-- would
it be difficult to determine the actual input energy?  Could the input
power be determined accurately by using a car storage battery to supply
the power, and measuring its degree of charge after a run?

Regards,  Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 20:28:46 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA26426;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:23:03 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:23:03 -0700
Message-ID: <006001bda568$4a672f20$ebb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Eagle Mills Water Wheel Powered Cider Mill Page One (http://www.eaglemillsfun.c
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:19:21 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"v-zjS.0.lS6.Lqlcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20257
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

<BASE HREF=3D"http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/">=0A=
<!-- This document was created with HomeSite 2.5 -->
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2 Final//EN">

<HTML>
<HEAD>
	<TITLE>Eagle Mills Water Wheel Powered Cider Mill Page One</TITLE>
	<meta name=3D"Keywords" content=3D"apples, apple cider, cider mill, =
mill, water power, water wheel, covered bridge, country bakery, gem =
mining, arts, crafts, festival, saratoga attraction, amusement park, =
adirondack, Albany, NY, amusement park, donuts, pies, country fair, =
tourism, tour, vacation, holiday, historic, resort, sightseeing">
    <meta name=3D"Description" content=3D"Eagle Mills Cider Co., a great =
place for old fashioned family fun, complete with a water powered cider =
mill, nostalgic covered bridge and an inviting country bakery. It's a =
place where the crackling sounds of a mill stream are mixed with echoes =
of laughing children. Come and enjoy">
</HEAD>
<frameset rows=3D"*,28">
 <frame marginwidth=3D"10" marginheight=3D"8" src=3D"main.html" =
name=3D"main" noresize>
 <frame marginwidth=3D"1" src=3D"audio.html" name=3D"audio">
</frameset>
<noframes>
<BODY BACKGROUND=3D"millbg3.gif" TEXT=3D"#580000" ALINK=3D"#FF0000" =
bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" vlink=3D"#420000" link=3D"#970000"><BASEFONT =
SIZE=3D4>
<center><h1 align=3D"center">Eagle Mills Cider Co.</h1></center>
<CENTER>

	<IMG SRC=3D"mill11.jpg" ALT=3D"Eagle Mills Cider Mill Pic" width=3D471 =
height=3D325 border=3D4>=20
</CENTER>
	<BR>
<center><h1>A Water Powered Cider Mill</h1></center>

<p><br>

<font size=3D"+1"><strong>N</strong></font>estled in the foothills of =
the Adirondack Mountains, in
Broadalbin, NY, Eagle Mills has lots to offer for old fashioned
family fun!

<p>
<font size=3D"+1"><strong>A</strong></font> visit to Eagle Mills is a =
step back in time.  Pan for amethyst,
rubies  and other gems at Eagle Mills Gem Mine...watch the
Water Wheel as it goes into action, powering the Cider Mill and
Press...meander across the nostalgic Covered Bridge...or just
relax  &quot;down by the Old Mill Stream&quot;  and Mill Pond with a =
glass of Eagle Mills sweet cider and a hot cider donut from the Eagle =
Mills Country Bakery.
<p>
<font size=3D"+1"><strong>O</strong></font>wned by the Boyko family, =
Eagle Mills offers lots of open skies,
fresh air and a unique experience in a rustic country atmosphere.
<p><BR>

<CENTER>
<A HREF=3D"main.html">Eagle Mills Cider Co</A>
| <A HREF=3D"cider_mill.html">Cider Mill &amp; Press</A>
| <A HREF=3D"covered_bridge.html">Country Bakery &amp; Covered =
Bridge</A>
<BR>
<A HREF=3D"craft_show.html">Art and Craft Show</A>
| <A HREF=3D"gem_stone.html">Gem Stone Mining</A>
| <A HREF=3D"gem_stone.html#dinodig">Dino Dig</A>
| <A HREF=3D"tours.html">Field Trips and Tours</A>
<br>
<A HREF=3D"info.html">Contacting Eagle Mills</A>=20
| <A HREF=3D"map.html">Street Directions and Map</A>
| <A HREF=3D"links.html">Other Web Links</A>
</CENTER>
<p>                 =20
<center><b><i><font size=3D"+1" color=3D"#FF0000">Eagle =
Mills</font><font color=3D"#000000"> ....... we make wonder-filled =
memories!</font></i></b>
<p>                =20
<strong>
<em>E-mail <A =
HREF=3D"mailto:CiderMill eaglemillsfun.com">CiderMill@eaglemillsfun.com</=
A></em>
</strong>
</center>
<p><br>
<strong>
<FONT SIZE=3D"-1">
<em>Page Design by <A HREF=3D"http://www.starinfo.com" =
target=3D"_top">Starinfo</A></em>
<br>
&#169; 1998 Eagle Mills Cider Co.
</FONT>
</strong>
<BR>
</BODY>
</noframes>
</HTML>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 20:56:45 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01061;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:53:19 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:53:19 -0700
Message-Id: <199807020350.XAA01351 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Advice to Teresa Tutt
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 98 23:53:05 -0000
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"bdv8-2.0.PG.lGmcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20258
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Teresa Tutt of the MIT Plasma Fusion Center wrote:

: Where's that water heater, Gene?

Tut, tut, Teresa!  The MANY prototype water heaters (small and large) 
using excess nuclear-scale  excess energy from electrochemical processes 
in both heavy and light water have been proved -- including at MIT 
Lincoln Labs, by Dr. Charles Haldeman (he's the guy Blacklight Power 
refers to not by name) -- who now works across the street from you at QET 
 (Quantum Energy Technologies). Too bad the results were not reported 
publicly --even though paid for by Unlce Sam.

At least he's an honorable fellow, as are other cold fusion workers -- 
unlike the unethical data fudgers and press manipulators* in 1989  from 
your federally funded white elephant (tokamak) factory. (*Ronald Parker 
and Ballinger -- yes, we have the Boston Herald tape of their conniving 
scheme, which is public record -- great stuff!  All MIT students should 
hear it as part of ethics 101 training.)  

>Is that the Griggs Gadget (deceased). 

It's very much alive and being sold commercially. Its excess energy has 
been demonstrated in numerous tests -- though it is not as impressive as 
some of the results from the recently discussed Kinetic Furnace -- see 
our WWW site.  There are still problems in regularizing these cavitation 
excess energy producers, but when we learn how to stabilize them, we'll 
be way ahead of the tokamak monstrosities that you work with -- which 
will obviolusly NEVER see the light of commercial success, and you know 
it. (Careful, Teressa, it might be bad for your resume!)  Sure, you may 
bilk the government for a few more years --  maybe even 5 more.  I 
understand Charlie Vest is "in bed" -- so to speak! -- with Bill Clinton. 
He's on his energy panel! How nice! Conflict of interest in making 
recommendations about fusion energy? Nah, of course not... Like the no 
conflict of interest in having the 1989 MIT PFC fraud paper "peer 
reviewed" at the PFC -- by editor Dr. Conn -- perfect name!

>the Potapov device (deceased)

Yes, we proved to our satisfaction that there was no excess energy in it 
-- as best we could determine (under the conditions tested). And we 
published our null results  in Issue # 3 of Infinite Energy **without** 
data fudging, i.e. like FRAUD* on a federally funded contract like the 
"Gang of 16"  did at MIT PFC in 1989.  Miracle of miracles: positive 
result -- excess energy on July 10, 1989 -- three days later -- fudged 
data creating perfect null result. Later -- one member of the team walked 
the plank with Appendix D to the final report as part of the whitewash -- 
the other 15 did not sign this.  Check it out Terresa, there's dirt in 
them thar files.....

  * Note Well: the clear evidence of FRAUD in the 1989 MIT PFC allegedly 
null CF calorimetry experiment   is availbale for inspection by any  
serious scientist or concerned citizen who wishes to examine the  300+ 
pages of documentation.

>or the
>CETI 1.4kW Cell (deceased) or 

Not deceased at all. Unlike tokamaks -- which haver ZERO potential 
commercial takers, CETI has many commercial suitors --as do other cold 
fusion companies -- by one of the largest manufcaturers of water heating 
units in the world. This was spelled out in Infinite Energy recently -- 
issue #19. Motorola DID tender CETI a $15 million buy-out offer a few 
years ago, which was refused. The Motorola results showed that the "heat 
after death"  phenomenon first proved by P&F in their Physics letters A 
paper of 1993, was real -- it went for days at Motorola.

> or is it the water heater Pons was
>photographed with (*)?  (*) Missing, presumed deceased.

Stan Pons produced excellent results at ICCF-6 -- some postive, but 
others null. Which shows how ethical he is and what a jerk you are to 
criticiize something your really have not investigated.

Has this become the MIT way? Making fun of frontier science? Apparently 
it is at the PFC.

I suggest you start learning a useful trade before the collapse of the 
wasteful program with which you are engaged. And learn something about 
the history of radical paradigm shifts in science. It is good for the 
soul. When radically new things are discovered, there are always people 
like you who follow the priests of the reigning paradigm. But I hope that 
smart MIT grad student that you are -- I was once one myself, you'll get 
over your pardigm paralysis.

Best wishes,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

Ph:  603-228-4516
Fax: 603-224-5975

  editor infinite-energy.com
 http://www.infinite-energy.com





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 21:08:42 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06059;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:05:46 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:05:46 -0700
Message-Id: <199807020403.AAA15208 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: RE: Teresa Tutt
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 98 00:05:34 -0000
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"98jZt1.0.ZU1.PSmcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20259
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Sorry for posting accidentally to Vortex something intended for SPF wars! 
"Advice to Teresa Tutt."

Best, Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 21:43:37 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13195;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:38:58 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:38:58 -0700
Message-Id: <v01530500b1c0b1e795fa [208.228.222.122]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:40:36 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Biot-Savart law valid?
Resent-Message-ID: <"0RIIu2.0.5E3.Xxmcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20260
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Below are a set of questions concerning the use of the Biot-Savart law to
model magnetic fields generated by current loops, e.g. wires, of varying
geometries, and then to use the derived fields to calculate the forces on
the current elements using the Lorentz law.  Any help or advice would be
much appreciated as significant effort has been expended and much more is
to be expended on the model.  A custom finite element modelling tool is
being developed in order to evaluate and compare alternative force laws in
various situations.  The main purpose of these questions is to assure that
the "standard" values given by the model really are correct values
according to accepted methods.

BACKGROUND:

If we want to know the magnetic induction vector dB at point P associated
with current element vector dL, with point P being at distance vector R
from dL, with r being the length of R, and x being the vector product, u0
being the permeability constant, and:

  r = |R|                           (1)

  l = |L|                           (2)

  u0 = 1.26 x 10^6 henry/meter      (3)


then we have the law of Biot and Savart:


  dB = ((u0 I)/(4 Pi r^3)) (dL x R)       (4)


The field B at point P is found by integrating dB above around all current
segments of the circuit.

A scalar version of the law is given by:


  dB = ((u0 i)/(4 Pi r^2)) (dl SIN(w))        (5)


where w is the angle between dL and R.


QUESTIONS:

Is the Biot-Savart law a well accepted law of physics?

Is the method of Biot-Savart well accepted for this application?

Are there any known exceptions or limitations?

Are there limitations to applying the Lorentz force vector dF derived from
the B calculated by applying (4) at point P, the locus of current segment
vector dM, in the standard way:

   dF = i dM x B                    (6)


and then vector integrating (6) over the length of finite current segments
to obtain the force on those individual current segments?

Equation (5) seems to indicate that an inverse square magnetic field is
generated about a charge q moving with samll velocity V, a vector, and that
the magnetic field strength about q diminishes in proportion to sin(w),
where w is the angle given as above, assuming the charge motion creates a
current segment dL.  Is that correct?

I understand the field is further compressed when relativistic
considerations are brought to bear, but the model is only to be applied to
glacially slow electrons.

Any other relevent comments or advice much appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  1 23:14:01 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA21840;
	Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:09:01 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:09:01 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:01:30 +0800 (SGT)
Message-Id: <2.2.16.19980702140458.095757d2 po.pacific.net.sg>
X-Sender: mpowers8 po.pacific.net.sg
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: Vortex <vortex-l mail.eskimo.com>
From: Mpowers Consultants <mpowers8 pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Boiled Lightning
Resent-Message-ID: <"-otw41.0.AL5.xFocr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20261
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Rich Murray posted the following (edited for brevity) at 20:27 1998.07.01 -0500:
>July 1, 1998
>
>Hello all,  I wonder how variable the resistance, current, and voltage
>are during the spectacular reactions in the incandescent W cell-- would
>it be difficult to determine the actual input energy?  Could the input
>power be determined accurately by using a car storage battery to supply
>the power, and measuring its degree of charge after a run?
>
>Regards,  Rich Murray

Actually, it is quite a bit more difficult than that.
 As SkeptoPath Supreme Don Lancaster 
 pointed out some time back on s.e.h.,
 power-in/power-out can be a devil to pin down.

I have been running this type of setup 
 under differing parameters for about 18 months now.

First, you have problems quantifying the power in
 due to power spikes and surges which occur 
 consonant with the explosions and momentarily
 drastic decreases of electrolyte/electrode contact.

In un-pressurized runs (atmospheric pressure alone)
 you end up with the problem Rick Monteverde
 describes - loss of water due to violent bubbling action.

Pressurized experiments tend to destroy the containment.

Barry Merriman posted the following (edited for brevity) at 08:05 1998.07.01
-0700:
>
>The new experiment sounds intriguiging, but....
<snip>
>
>As for the new experiment, immediate start up and violent reaction
>smell like chemistry to me. Its not hard to be "O/U" based on
>chemical potential for a few minutes.
A valid point...
How many joules will the oxidization of one gram
 of W, Ni, Fe, Al, Zn, or Cr yield ?
(BTW, Barry, in my experiments I notice it's not an immediate start-up.
  There is an elusive magic point where, dependent on the electrode type,
  the set-up goes hyperactive.  That point is not the transition from
  simple electrolysis to electrical arcing, but somewhere beyond mere arcs.
  If you get a travelling arc, I don't believe it's OU.  A travelling arc is
  pretty, photogenic, and sounds exciting, but it precludes load distribution.
  You can generate boiled lightning with a vast set of parameters, 
  but the magic point is where the electrodes begin to disintegrate 
  due to what I perceive are explosions inside the skin.
  Designing an electrode that won't disintegrate is my current task.
  Conductive W ceramic lattice, anyone ?)

Rick Monteverde posted the following (edited for brevity) at 17:35
1998.06.30 -1000:
>
>I've known how anodization of aluminum was done for a long time, with the
>tubular-cell aluminum oxide coating building up than can be dyed. But I
>only recently learned that the anodized metal jewelry fad of the mid 80's
>with titanium and niobium principally involved the formation of oxides on
>the anode target in very thin diffractive layers at high voltage (100V+ is
>high relative to the 12v aluminum in sulphuric acid process) which create
>beautiful colors without dyes. What caught my attention and made me wonder
>about possible CF related anomalies in these systems was when I read that
>when you anodize a target with a certain voltage, you can't go back to a
>lower voltage (the colors won't change and nothing happens), and that the
>color tint due to thickness varies with voltage. Perhaps this has something
>to do with 'contaminants' being created in the process. Probably not, but
>it's interesting anyway that such dramatic CF-like effects are now claimed
>for a substantially similar process. 

Chemical, or O-U ?
I've gotten some very beautiful pieces of electrodes back from runs that
 show no O-U.  Runs appearing to be O-U demolish the electrodes.
 It may well be the excess energy can all be attributed to electrode chemistry.

Add to that the problem of nailing down the electromagnetic
 emissions (radio frequency, radiated heat, light, U-V emissions,
 as well as weak X-rays) and thermal/resistive losses in 
 whatever power supply (be it battery or otherwise),
 you can end up with a plethora of loose ends.

Any skeptopath would immediately end up foaming at the mouth
 raving about the different ways these loose ends could be 
 construed to justify classical explanations of the energy flows.

About the only way I see around power-in definition problems 
 is a massively inductive filtered D.C source to drive the operation,
 monitoring power-in between the source and filter.

Virtually all of my runs were started at ~30 C, and when that starting
 point is used any OU becomes rather marginal to be certain.

I haven't previously posted because I prefer not to excite people
 into spending time and money on possible dead ends.
 Most of us do that often enough without speculative encouragement.
 
For those who say this is the holy grail, I say "Close the loop !"
 I believe that what we are achieving here *may possibly* be
 on the edge of where we need to be, but proof is a closed loop.
 Which I just don't see yet.

Those of you who wish to try this need to be careful about
 getting your body parts too close to the electrodes (radiation), 
 as well as beware of wet HV wiring.

The residue of this experiment may be of interest to Joe Champion fans.

cheers

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 02:54:00 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA07037;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 02:52:19 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 02:52:19 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102802b1c10578f61f [12.64.37.30]>
In-Reply-To: <199807020403.AAA15208 mercury.mv.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:38:45 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Teresa Tutt
Resent-Message-ID: <"3XE2V2.0.tj1.HXrcr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20263
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Sorry for posting accidentally to Vortex something intended for SPF wars!
>"Advice to Teresa Tutt."


Sorry?! That was one of the *better* posts I've seen here in a while!

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 02:54:24 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA21422;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 02:44:46 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 02:44:46 -0700
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102803b1c106271f40 [12.64.37.30]>
In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19980702140458.095757d2 po.pacific.net.sg>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:43:41 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Boiled Lightning
Resent-Message-ID: <"yUR2o.0.ZE5.DQrcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20262
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

MPowers writes:

  > The residue of this experiment may be
  > of interest to Joe Champion fans.

Is there a good quantity of powdered electrode remnant left over when
electrodes get eaten up? Is such material turning up apparent
transmutations or isotopic shifts?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 05:03:01 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA16618;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 04:59:49 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 04:59:49 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199807021149.HAA01143 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Boiled Lightning
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 98 07:56:17 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"kmK4D3.0.X34.oOtcr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20264
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>MPowers writes:
>
>  > The residue of this experiment may be
>  > of interest to Joe Champion fans.
>
>Is there a good quantity of powdered electrode remnant left over when
>electrodes get eaten up? Is such material turning up apparent
>transmutations or isotopic shifts?

Rick,

There is much in the way of apparent "filings" in the bottom of the 
beaker (they do not respond to a magnet) -- when 1/8th-inch W electrode 
is used. When thin foil is used, it seems to just disappear in the 
solution, but all this is visual impression only. Rigrous chemcial 
analysis needs to be done -- a vast area of work, to be sure.

Best, Gene Mallove 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 05:07:33 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA16634;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 04:59:54 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 04:59:54 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199807021149.HAA01150 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: RE: Teresa Tutt
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 98 07:56:19 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"tSurx.0.m34.sOtcr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20265
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Sorry?! That was one of the *better* posts I've seen here in a while!
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

Glad you liked it Rick, These "youngsters" at the PFC need to know what 
gross dirt lurks just down the hall from them at the MIT Plasma Fusion 
Center. I understand one of the PFC data fudgers works right near Barry 
Merriman in the west coast hot fusion money transfer operation. Let's not 
reveal his name, for now. He's a sort of "Hard Luck" fellow... pulling in 
close to $100K or so I would imagine.

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 06:09:29 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24510;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:07:11 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:07:11 -0700 (PDT)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <359B83DF.C78F91FC css.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 07:58:07 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Advice to Teresa Tutt
References: <199807020350.XAA01351 mercury.mv.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"g8AMQ2.0.u-5.zNucr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20266
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

E.F. Mallove wrote:

<entertaining snip>

> Motorola DID tender CETI a $15 million buy-out offer a few
> years ago, which was refused. The Motorola results showed that the "heat
> after death"  phenomenon first proved by P&F in their Physics letters A
> paper of 1993, was real -- it went for days at Motorola.

Gene-
This has been tossed about many times, but I have never been able to find any
information internally.  Many have emailed me privately asking for more
information.  Would you happen to know where these tests were held, and by
which Sector?  I am not challenging your assertion, just curious.  

John E. Steck
--------------------------------o]{:
  Senior Mechanical Engineer
  Rapid Tooling Applications
  Motorola CSS, Libertyville

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 06:14:55 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11247;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:11:04 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:11:04 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <359B86E8.8E0C8F1B css.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 08:11:04 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Teresa Tutt
References: <199807021149.HAA01150 mercury.mv.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"vEakj3.0.Rl2.dRucr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20267
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

E.F. Mallove wrote:
> Let's not
> reveal his name, for now. He's a sort of "Hard Luck" fellow... pulling in
> close to $100K or so I would imagine.

hee hee hee, I would love to see the mass paranoia after making that
statement!  (...oh no! their on to me!  oh wait, they are talking about
..........  Back to sleep!  Is it 5 yet?)

LOL, you would be suprised how many there actually are....


John E. Steck
--------------------------------o]{:
  Senior Mechanical Engineer
  Rapid Tooling Applications
  Motorola CSS, Libertyville

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 07:29:09 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA32524;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 07:23:22 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 07:23:22 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980702102743.00c41710 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 10:27:43 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Schultz: Mallove: Robert Park's Cover-Up of Clarke's  Messa
Cc: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
In-Reply-To: <199807012302.TAA15888 mercury.mv.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Tz-ms2.0.xx7.OVvcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20268
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 07:04 PM 7/1/98 -0000, E.F. Mallove wrote:
>Bob is incorrect on both counts. Clarke may now be Sir Arthur C. Clarke, 
>but he is not a member of the Royal Society, as far as I know.

    Clarke has been a member for decades.  He was original nominated based
on his radar work during WWII and thereafter, before he gained a reputation
as a science fiction author.  (His paper on communication satellites,
"Extraterrestrial Relays" published in 1946, was based on that work.)

> CETI kits did NOT come with a money back promise, but the Cincinnati 
>Group cell - adveritised in IE for some time now, does come with such a 
>promise. Its performance has been confimed in Italy and by Trenergy, Inc. 
>in Salt Lke City -- others too.

   Thought they did.  Not a guarentee of over-unity, but of transmutation
effects.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 07:55:06 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA09406;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 07:46:55 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 07:46:55 -0700
Message-ID: <359B8FE5.7E50 earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 08:49:25 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Murray: Mallove: Tutt: CF positives? 7.2.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ZeM1T3.0.uI2.Urvcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20269
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

[July 2, 1998 Comments by Rich Murray, during a rare interlude from
blissful mirror gazing: those interested in this practice may ask for
his 20-page manual: "Communion Process: A Manual for Mutual Meditative
Exploration".  I'm reposting these claims by Gene Mallove, since they
summarize his continuing public faith in a number of still current CF
claims which I believe to be spurious: CETI, Cincinnati Group,
Blacklight Power, Griggs [griggs mindspring.com].  He deserves much
credit for testing and publishing in "Infinite Energy" his
disconfirmations of the Potatov device and the Ragland Triode cell. I am
still hoping he will publish my summary Eighth Miley Critique and recent
Little Lily Theory, about the Ohmori microstructures on Au, and elicit a
fruitful public debate.  He has often mentioned the Motorola "heat after
death" claim, but I was unable last fall to locate any specifics as to
the experiment, dates, location, and researchers: can anyone help?  Is
Jean-Paul Biberian still claiming excess heat and transmutations with
his CETI RIFEX kit and other CETI-type cells
[biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr], and has Peter Glueck
[peter itim.org.soroscj.ro] published a final report on his tests of the
Cincinatti thorium cell?  What were the results of Norman Olson's tests
of the CETI remediation cell at Pacific Northwest Laboratory?  Who are
Trenergy, Inc., Salt Lake City?]

Subject: Advice to Teresa Tutt
 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:53:19 -0700
Resent-From:  vortex-l eskimo.com
       Date:  Wed, 1 Jul 98 23:53:05 -0000
       From:  "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
    Reply-To:  vortex-l eskimo.com
         To:   "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>

Teresa Tutt of the MIT Plasma Fusion Center wrote:
[tutt wente.llnl.gov]
: Where's that water heater, Gene?

Tut, tut, Teresa!  The MANY prototype water heaters (small and large) 
using excess nuclear-scale  excess energy from electrochemical processes 
in both heavy and light water have been proved -- including at MIT 
Lincoln Labs, by Dr. Charles Haldeman (he's the guy Blacklight Power 
refers to not by name) -- who now works across the street from you at
QET  (Quantum Energy Technologies). Too bad the results were not
reported publicly --even though paid for by Uncle Sam.

At least he's an honorable fellow, as are other cold fusion workers -- 
unlike the unethical data fudgers and press manipulators* in 1989  from 
your federally funded white elephant (tokamak) factory. (*Ronald Parker 
and Ballinger -- yes, we have the Boston Herald tape of their conniving 
scheme, which is public record -- great stuff!  All MIT students should 
hear it as part of ethics 101 training.)  

>Is that the Griggs Gadget (deceased). 

It's very much alive and being sold commercially. Its excess energy has 
been demonstrated in numerous tests -- though it is not as impressive as 
some of the results from the recently discussed Kinetic Furnace -- see 
our WWW site.  There are still problems in regularizing these cavitation 
excess energy producers, but when we learn how to stabilize them, we'll 
be way ahead of the tokamak monstrosities that you work with -- which 
will obviously NEVER see the light of commercial success, and you know 
it. (Careful, Teressa, it might be bad for your resume!)  Sure, you may 
bilk the government for a few more years --  maybe even 5 more.  I 
understand Charlie Vest is "in bed" -- so to speak! -- with Bill
Clinton. He's on his energy panel! How nice! Conflict of interest in
making recommendations about fusion energy? Nah, of course not... Like
the no conflict of interest in having the 1989 MIT PFC fraud paper "peer 
reviewed" at the PFC -- by editor Dr. Conn -- perfect name!

>the Potapov device (deceased)

Yes, we proved to our satisfaction that there was no excess energy in it 
-- as best we could determine (under the conditions tested). And we 
published our null results  in Issue # 3 of Infinite Energy **without** 
data fudging, i.e. like FRAUD* on a federally funded contract like the 
"Gang of 16"  did at MIT PFC in 1989.  Miracle of miracles: positive 
result -- excess energy on July 10, 1989 -- three days later -- fudged 
data creating perfect null result. Later -- one member of the team
walked the plank with Appendix D to the final report as part of the
whitewash -- the other 15 did not sign this.  Check it out Terresa,
there's dirt in them thar files.....

  * Note Well: the clear evidence of FRAUD in the 1989 MIT PFC allegedly 
null CF calorimetry experiment   is available for inspection by any  
serious scientist or concerned citizen who wishes to examine the  300+ 
pages of documentation.

>or the
>CETI 1.4kW Cell (deceased) or 

Not deceased at all. Unlike tokamaks -- which have ZERO potential 
commercial takers, CETI has many commercial suitors --as do other cold 
fusion companies -- by one of the largest manufacturers of water heating 
units in the world. This was spelled out in Infinite Energy recently -- 
issue #19. Motorola DID tender CETI a $15 million buy-out offer a few 
years ago, which was refused. The Motorola results showed that the "heat 
after death"  phenomenon first proved by P&F in their Physics letters A 
paper of 1993, was real -- it went for days at Motorola.

> or is it the water heater Pons was
>photographed with (*)?  (*) Missing, presumed deceased.

Stan Pons produced excellent results at ICCF-6 -- some postive, but 
others null. Which shows how ethical he is and what a jerk you are to 
criticize something your really have not investigated.

Has this become the MIT way? Making fun of frontier science? Apparently 
it is at the PFC.

I suggest you start learning a useful trade before the collapse of the 
wasteful program with which you are engaged. And learn something about 
the history of radical paradigm shifts in science. It is good for the 
soul. When radically new things are discovered, there are always people 
like you who follow the priests of the reigning paradigm. But I hope
that smart MIT grad student that you are -- I was once one myself,
you'll get over your pardigm paralysis.

Best wishes,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

Ph:  603-228-4516
Fax: 603-224-5975

  editor infinite-energy.com
 http://www.infinite-energy.com

Subject:  RE: Teresa Tutt
 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:05:46 -0700
Resent-From:  vortex-l eskimo.com
       Date:  Thu, 2 Jul 98 00:05:34 -0000
       From:  "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
    Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
         To:  "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>

Sorry for posting accidentally to Vortex something intended for SPF
wars! "Advice to Teresa Tutt."

Best, Gene Mallove

Subject:  Re: Schultz: Mallove: Robert Park's Cover-Up of Clarke's Messa
 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:12:26 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-From:  vortex-l eskimo.com
       Date:  Wed, 1 Jul 98 19:04:47 -0000
       From:  "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
    Reply-To:  vortex-l eskimo.com
         To:   "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>

>The first part is easy, Arthur C. Clarke.  I think that the money-back
>reference was to the CETI kits.
>
>                                        Robert I. Eachus

Bob is incorrect on both counts. Clarke may now be Sir Arthur C. Clarke, 
but he is not a member of the Royal Society, as far as I know. I suppose 
he is talking about one of his many contacts. I can assure you this is a 
real person. Clarke does not make up people on serious  matters such as 
these.

 CETI kits did NOT come with a money back promise, but the Cincinnati 
Group cell - adveritised in IE for some time now, does come with such a 
promise. Its performance has been confimed in Italy and by Trenergy,
Inc. in Salt Lke City -- others too.

Best, Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 08:10:22 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15043;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:07:30 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:07:30 -0700
Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CBD xch-cpc-02>
From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Eagle Mills Water Wheel Powered Cider Mill Page One (http://w
	ww.eaglemillsfun.c
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:06:44 -0700
X-Priority: 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA14985
Resent-Message-ID: <"KIKoz1.0.wg3.m8wcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20270
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frederick
	This wheel is a tourist ripoff. I passed it several hundred
times when I lived in Schenectady. It is about 4 feet in diameter, a
foot wide, and sits in a small stream doing nothing but spinning slowly,
at the roadside in front of a tiny general store. Not very impressive.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Frederick J Sparber[SMTP:fjsparb sprintmail.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Wednesday, July 01, 1998 8:19 PM
> To: 	Vortex-l
> Subject: 	Eagle Mills Water Wheel Powered Cider Mill Page One
> (http://www.eaglemillsfun.c
> 
> 
> 
> Eagle Mills Cider Co.
> 
> 
> Eagle Mills Cider Mill Pic 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Water Powered Cider Mill
> 
> 
> 
> Nestled in the foothills of the Adirondack Mountains, in Broadalbin,
> NY, Eagle Mills has lots to offer for old fashioned family fun! 
> A visit to Eagle Mills is a step back in time. Pan for amethyst,
> rubies and other gems at Eagle Mills Gem Mine...watch the Water Wheel
> as it goes into action, powering the Cider Mill and Press...meander
> across the nostalgic Covered Bridge...or just relax "down by the Old
> Mill Stream" and Mill Pond with a glass of Eagle Mills sweet cider and
> a hot cider donut from the Eagle Mills Country Bakery. 
> Owned by the Boyko family, Eagle Mills offers lots of open skies,
> fresh air and a unique experience in a rustic country atmosphere. 
> 
> 
> Eagle Mills Cider Co
> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/main.html>  | Cider Mill &
> Press <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/cider_mill.html>  |
> Country Bakery & Covered Bridge
> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/covered_bridge.html>  
> Art and Craft Show
> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/craft_show.html>  | Gem Stone
> Mining <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/gem_stone.html>  | Dino
> Dig <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/gem_stone.html#dinodig>  |
> Field Trips and Tours
> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/tours.html>  
> Contacting Eagle Mills
> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/info.html>  | Street
> Directions and Map <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/map.html>
> | Other Web Links <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/links.html>
> 
> Eagle Mills ....... we make wonder-filled memories! 
> E-mail CiderMill eaglemillsfun.com
> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/mailto:CiderMill eaglemillsfun
> .com>  
> 
> Page Design by Starinfo <http://www.starinfo.com>  
> © 1998 Eagle Mills Cider Co. 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 08:16:22 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18895;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:13:51 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:13:51 -0700
Message-ID: <001d01bda5ba$ea13ace0$314fd3d0 default>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Boiled Lightning
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:09:09 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"jn9h_.0.8d4.kEwcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20271
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

With respect to Rich Murray's suggestion of using a battery to power the
"boiled lightning" cell and then measuring charge depletion as a way of
estimating energy input, let me say that this is a seductive and extremely
slippery slope. It would actually give Rich ample range for his very active
imagination in finding things that could go wrong in the measurements. The
complexity of battery behavior is the weak point in the Joseph Newman
demonstrations. It is also the point most easily criticized in the Correa
demonstrations, even though they go to very elaborate means to calibrate the
batteries before every run.

There is some room for doubt in measurements with simple instruments of the
energy absorption by the cell when driven by a conventional power supply.
One can regard the cell as a source of noise to be filtered. Thus if the
cell is shunted by a sufficiently large capacitor, and you measure the
voltage across the capacitor over a long period, then you have a direct
measure of the energy into the cell. The capacitor does not exhibit the
variabilities of batteries.

One can also measure the current and voltage with wideband integrating
meters and achieve essentially the same result. Digital meters sample the
signals to be measured and so are not suitable for signals with substantial
noise content unless suitable filtering is employed.

However, these matters are of significance when precision measurements are
being made of low level effects as in the case of some F&P cell
measurements. When there are gross, high level effects as in the present
case one can take the conventional meteres as a first case indication. What
is needed is oscillographic observation of the voltage and current into the
cell to see what the nature of the noise is and then take appropriate
filtering measures.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 08:55:01 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA32390;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:51:37 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:51:37 -0700
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:51:45 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199807021551.IAA07513 pop4.ucdavis.edu>
X-Sender: szdanq peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Murray: [your favorite Vortex CF message here]
Resent-Message-ID: <"1AlYJ2.0.uv7.8owcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20272
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Rich Murray:

Excuse me for interrupting, but is there some compelling
reason why you feel it necessary to repost Vortex messages
to Vortex?? We know how to access the archives. Do you think
we don't read messages unless they have your name appended
to the subject header?

I'd have posted this privately, but am wondering if this has
been bugging others also. Besides, I'm a bit grumpy this week.
(seems like the whole damn list is grumpy this week :-)

Dan Quickert

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 08:56:50 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA00768;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:53:46 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:53:46 -0700
Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CBE xch-cpc-02>
From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Boiled Lightning
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:53:21 -0700
X-Priority: 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"Fh3AA2.0.vB.9qwcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20273
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Mike, Vortexans
	There is a meter called an e-meter, available from electric
vehicle and marine stores, which measures current, voltage,
ampere-hours, kilowatt hours, etc. for battery monitoring. It is 2" in
diameter, panel mounting, with a 500A ammeter shunt. I have three of
them, for my EV, trailer, and sailboat. For Vortex purposes, buy them
from an EV parts dealer, and make sure that you get the kilowatt hour
option (only on more recent units). They are manufactured by Cruising
Equipment, contact for more information. They measure up to 511 amperes,
with 100ma increments, and up to 40volts(to the nearest 100mv). A range
extender option is available for 100v and 500v, but you can make your
own from a resistor in series with a pot.

Hank

> Rick Proctor
> Cruising Equipment
> 5245 Shilshole Ave NW
> Seattle, WA  98107
> 
> 206-782-8100
> FAX 206-782-4336
> Ceco nwlink.com----------
> 
An EV parts dealer:
carguys Wilde-EVolutions.com
http://www.EVParts.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Wilde EVolutions, Inc.                        Jerome, AZ & Port
Townsend, WA
Electric Vehicle Components      call toll free: 888 EV Parts (888
387-2787)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Photo-filled catalog available - we accept Visa, Mastercard, Discover &
AMEX








> From: 	Mike Carrell[SMTP:mikec snip.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, July 02, 1998 6:09 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Boiled Lightning
> 
> With respect to Rich Murray's suggestion of using a battery to power
> the
> "boiled lightning" cell and then measuring charge depletion as a way
> of
> estimating energy input, let me say that this is a seductive and
> extremely
> slippery slope. It would actually give Rich ample range for his very
> active
> imagination in finding things that could go wrong in the measurements.
> The
> complexity of battery behavior is the weak point in the Joseph Newman
> demonstrations. It is also the point most easily criticized in the
> Correa
> demonstrations, even though they go to very elaborate means to
> calibrate the
> batteries before every run.
> 
> There is some room for doubt in measurements with simple instruments
> of the
> energy absorption by the cell when driven by a conventional power
> supply.
> One can regard the cell as a source of noise to be filtered. Thus if
> the
> cell is shunted by a sufficiently large capacitor, and you measure the
> voltage across the capacitor over a long period, then you have a
> direct
> measure of the energy into the cell. The capacitor does not exhibit
> the
> variabilities of batteries.
> 
> One can also measure the current and voltage with wideband integrating
> meters and achieve essentially the same result. Digital meters sample
> the
> signals to be measured and so are not suitable for signals with
> substantial
> noise content unless suitable filtering is employed.
> 
> However, these matters are of significance when precision measurements
> are
> being made of low level effects as in the case of some F&P cell
> measurements. When there are gross, high level effects as in the
> present
> case one can take the conventional meteres as a first case indication.
> What
> is needed is oscillographic observation of the voltage and current
> into the
> cell to see what the nature of the noise is and then take appropriate
> filtering measures.
> 
> Mike Carrell
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 09:08:30 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05904;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:06:08 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:06:08 -0700
Message-ID: <010901bda5d2$de156060$ebb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Eagle Mills Water Wheel Powered Cider Mill Page One (http://www.eaglemillsfun.c
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:02:46 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"r_vva3.0.4S1.k_wcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20274
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Scudder, Henry J <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: 'vortex-l eskimo.com' <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, July 02, 1998 9:09 AM
Subject: RE: Eagle Mills Water Wheel Powered Cider Mill Page One
(http://www.eaglemillsfun.c

Gosh Hank, I thought I'd hit on small-scale Hydropower at it's best, not to
mention
apple cider.
I was searching *water wheel powered mills*and hit this one. Their blub on
Fitz water wheels was informative. A 40 foot diameter wheel could run off
Niagara Falls.

I liked the music though.  :-)

Regards,  Frederick




>Frederick
> This wheel is a tourist ripoff. I passed it several hundred
>times when I lived in Schenectady. It is about 4 feet in diameter, a
>foot wide, and sits in a small stream doing nothing but spinning slowly,
>at the roadside in front of a tiny general store. Not very impressive.
>
>Hank
>
>> ----------
>> From: Frederick J Sparber[SMTP:fjsparb sprintmail.com]
>> Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 1998 8:19 PM
>> To: Vortex-l
>> Subject: Eagle Mills Water Wheel Powered Cider Mill Page One
>> (http://www.eaglemillsfun.c
>>
>>
>>
>> Eagle Mills Cider Co.
>>
>>
>> Eagle Mills Cider Mill Pic
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A Water Powered Cider Mill
>>
>>
>>
>> Nestled in the foothills of the Adirondack Mountains, in Broadalbin,
>> NY, Eagle Mills has lots to offer for old fashioned family fun!
>> A visit to Eagle Mills is a step back in time. Pan for amethyst,
>> rubies and other gems at Eagle Mills Gem Mine...watch the Water Wheel
>> as it goes into action, powering the Cider Mill and Press...meander
>> across the nostalgic Covered Bridge...or just relax "down by the Old
>> Mill Stream" and Mill Pond with a glass of Eagle Mills sweet cider and
>> a hot cider donut from the Eagle Mills Country Bakery.
>> Owned by the Boyko family, Eagle Mills offers lots of open skies,
>> fresh air and a unique experience in a rustic country atmosphere.
>>
>>
>> Eagle Mills Cider Co
>> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/main.html>  | Cider Mill &
>> Press <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/cider_mill.html>  |
>> Country Bakery & Covered Bridge
>> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/covered_bridge.html>
>> Art and Craft Show
>> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/craft_show.html>  | Gem Stone
>> Mining <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/gem_stone.html>  | Dino
>> Dig <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/gem_stone.html#dinodig>  |
>> Field Trips and Tours
>> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/tours.html>
>> Contacting Eagle Mills
>> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/info.html>  | Street
>> Directions and Map <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/map.html>
>> | Other Web Links <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/links.html>
>>
>> Eagle Mills ....... we make wonder-filled memories!
>> E-mail CiderMill eaglemillsfun.com
>> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/mailto:CiderMill eaglemillsfun
>> .com>
>>
>> Page Design by Starinfo <http://www.starinfo.com>
>> © 1998 Eagle Mills Cider Co.
>>
>>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 09:16:23 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10351;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:12:33 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:12:33 -0700
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:08:19 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Kurtz on Wharton, CETI
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807021211_MC2-5203-70AD compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"Nmt0u2.0.FX2.k5xcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20275
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; Lynn Kurtz >INTERNET:kurtz imap2.asu.edu

Lynn Kurtz writes:

     Lets see, now. I believe it was Wharton (I hope I am correct; I didn't
     keep the post) that referred to sources inside CETI he can't disclose
     that gave him information that CETI had conducted calorimetric tests
     showing that their effect is not real and they are keeping quiet about
     it.

That is incorrect. It is a baseless rumor. Wharton did initially claim he
could not reveal his sources, but when pushed he posted his source: a short
e-mail message from Dennis Cravens. There was nothing secret about the message
and it did not refer to any tests performed within CETI. Wharton
misinterpreted the whole episode, and made a mountain out of a molehill.
Attached are some of the relevant messages from the Vortex archive, including
ones from Wharton and Cravens. If you have any questions or concerns about
this, please contact Wharton or Cravens directly.

Wharton's misunderstanding seems to have taken on a life of its own. Gullible
people who believe that CETI has performed "secret experiments" which prove
that standard flow calorimetry does not work, and that CETI is keeping these
results secret, probably also believe in the "X-Files" conspiracy theories,
and they have a weak grasp of elementary science. Wharton's hypothesis that
purportedly proves flow calorimetry does not work is a gross violation of
thermodynamics. I am surprised that anyone with a scientific background would
take this hypothesis seriously and spread around absurd rumors based upon it.

- Jed


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Date:  05-Jun-98 13:50 EDT
From:  INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com, Larry Wharton
<wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subj:  Secret CETI experiments


To: Vortex,

  I do not know much about the secret CETI experiments so I can not reveal
much.  What I do know comes from talking to CETI people so I would not say
that it is rumors.  This came up when I was trying to interest them in my
concept of the PPC (Patterson Power Cell) as a heat pump that could exceed
the Carnot limit.  I was surprised to hear that they were already
investigating this and that they had a scientist who was working on this
concept.  So right from the start it was apparent that CETI had good reason
to believe that the PPC was acting as a heat pump.  Otherwise, it would
have been foolish to hire a scientist to work on researching this
hypothesis.  And I do not think that I was being lied to by the CETI
people.  Every indication I have is that the CETI people have something and
that they are honestly trying to understand it scientifically.  The secrecy
seems designed only as a strategy to limit potential competition and not to
cover up bogus results.
  Then I received some vague references to experiments in which an entire
PPC system was put in an enclosed chamber and the temperature of the entire
system did not increase as much as expected based on the indicated combined
flow calorimetry excess heat production.  Quoting an e-mail from Dennis
Cravens:

>Hi, I'm Dennis Cravens with CETI Christian Ismert forwarded your email for
>my  >comments.   I think you have some interesting points.   You refer to
>a paper.  >I would love to see more on the  subject.   Dennis Cravens
>PS.  at least >one group saw a delta temp in the fluid  flow but not the
>average of the whole >device , as seen within a closed test  chamber.

I only know that which may be inferred from the above PS and similar comments.

 In reference to Jed Rothwell's comments:

>Larry Wharton continues to reveal a little and hide a little about this
>amazing alleged event which proved that a gigantic worldwide error has been
>made by thousands of scientists for 90 years.

The technique of combined flow calorimetry has been only in use by a few
scientists for about 5 years.

> If Cravens knew of revolutionary results which would make the
>principal researchers famous world-wide he would replicate them and publish
>them quick as poss. So would you, if you had any sense.

I realize the significance of the CETI results.  I would like to include
them in some publication but the secrecy prevents their use as a reference.

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


Date:  05-Jun-98 14:25 EDT
From:  INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com, "Craig Haynie" <ccHaynie@ix.netcom.com>
Subj:  Re: Secret CETI experiments

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 13:20:47 -0500


Hello Larry Wharton!

You quoted Dennis Cravens:

>>Hi, I'm Dennis Cravens with CETI Christian Ismert forwarded your email for
>>my  >comments.   I think you have some interesting points.   You refer to
>>a paper.  >I would love to see more on the  subject.   Dennis Cravens
>>PS.  at least >one group saw a delta temp in the fluid  flow but not the
>>average of the whole >device , as seen within a closed test  chamber.


Then said:

>I only know that which may be inferred from the above PS and similar
comments.


I don't understand how you can reconcile the above with that which you said
earlier:

>The secret experiments in which an entire PPC system was placed in an
>insulated container proved conculsively that there is zero energy
>production.  I have suggested that Jed contact Dennis Cravens, who knows
>about these experiments, to see if he could find out some details . . .

The example you gave is hardly 'conclusive proof' that there is zero energy
production. Indeed, it seems to me that you may have mis-interpretted Dennis
Craven's remarks. It looks to me as if he was indicating that he saw no
significant delta-T, due to the heat-pump effect, in his system when he
enclosed the test chamber. The implication from his paragraph here is that
he DID continue to see the excess heat production.

Do you have any other evidence that they saw no heat production when closing
their test chamber? Did you speak to anyone personally on this issue, from
CETI?

Craig Haynie (Houston)


Date:  05-Jun-98 22:42 EDT
From:  "Dennis Cravens" > INTERNET:Dennis wazoo.com
Subj:  Re: Please comment or call me on this

Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:45:07 -0600
        charset="iso-8859-1"


Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4

I can think of no double calorimetry methods ever being used with a PPC.
I do not know what Wharton is saying.  That is the reason I try to stay out
of the rumor mills.

I have two problems with the remediation work, 1) the neutron to proton
ratios before and after.... where are the neutrons or at least some gamma
where they turned to protons  and 2) where is the heat,  I would expect
about 200 Mev per U to come out some why.
I think that Maria will be giving something at the ANS Nashville meeting.
That data should become public then.

sorry I could not help more.

Dennis


Date:  08-Jun-98 15:28 EDT
From:  INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com, Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com>
Subj:  Comments from Dennis Cravens

X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/19619
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com

To: Vortex; >INTERNET:wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

Larry Wharton quoted a short message from Dennis Cravens:

     Hi, I'm Dennis Cravens with CETI Christian Ismert forwarded your email
     for my comments.   I think you have some interesting points.   You refer
     to a paper.  I would love to see more on the  subject.   Dennis Cravens

     PS.  at least  one group saw a delta temp in the fluid  flow but not the
     average of the whole device, as seen within a closed test  chamber.

>From this tiny seed Wharton grew a mighty tree. He think that CETI ran a
secret experiment with a dual calorimeter, and this experiment proved that the
inside flow calorimeter, did not actually produce heat. None of this is true.
Wharton should ask for a clarification from the source before spreading
confusion and false rumors for a month. I had a brief exchange of e-mail
messages and a short conversation with Cravens. Let me try to clear up some of
this confusion.

First, unfortunately, Cravens does not recall sending this particular message.
The only dual calorimeter he recalls is with the recent Storms experiments. If
that is what he meant, he has it backwards: Storms used an isoperibolic
calorimeter inside a flow calorimeter. Wracking his brain and trying to
remember what he meant, Cravens wrote:

     I don't think I ever claimed that a PPC was used in a double cal.
     method.  I cannot remember ever doing such a test.  (on PPC cells it is
     usually flow calorimeter within a constant temp/humidity environment)

     However, I think that a Ni - normal water cell (R. Mills like) was run
     in a closed configuration and that no heat was observed then. (but did
     in an open configuration) ---- (Note: this does not mean that two
     systems were used together or even a flow system was used).

He refers to the fact that low power, low surface area Ni tests reportedly
sometimes show marginal excess heat beyond recombination with an open cell,
but none with a closed cell. This bothers me too. If the excess in the first
case was below recombination I would assume this is a recombination problem,
but I do not know what to make of the reported results. The results are
marginal in any case, and I suspect some kind of error. I have not seen enough
details to judge. Mills says there is no error and his theory predicts this
behavior.

Cravens adds an important point that I have made countless times, which
unfortunately always eludes Wharton:

     PS Please realize that I work on a lot of other kinds of cell that the
     CETI PPC [Patterson Power Cell] and that I use more than flow
     calorimetry.

     My guess is that Wharton  just assumes that all things are about the
     PPC., and flow systems....  that ain't so.

As I have pointed out countless times, Patterson himself demonstrated
convincing isoperibolic calorimetry long before he built the PPC. I sometimes
wish he had stuck with that mode, although if he had people like Wharton would
be clamoring for flow calorimetry instead.

Cravens writes:

     I have mixed views on double calorimetry methods (you might want to talk
     to Scott Little or Ed Storms).  The idea sounds good, but I worry that
     the outer system is always more likely to give errors than the inter one
     (many would disagree).  The reason is that the outer one is more removed
     from the experiment and that if you make it big enough it will always be
     less sensitive and read zero (extreme example - place the entire lab in
     a calorimeter and you would likely see zero even with a heat source
     inside.)

I agree. I see little justification for a dual calorimeter. Twice as many
things will go wrong. I think it is enough to monitor the cell internal
temperature, which rises and falls in proportion to the heat, although not as
much as it does with an isoperibolic calorimeter. The only reason to build a
dual calorimeter is to test marginal results the way Storms did, and I have no
use for marginal results in the first place. Storms agrees the technique would
serve no purpose when electrolysis produces enough stirring, as it will with a
small cell above ~500 milliamps.

Cravens concludes:

     Again rumor is not a good thing.  It just confuses things.  People try
     to read to much in to things instead of taking just what is said.

Exactly! Always ask for clarification. In this case, there is little
clarification to be had, because this was  an offhand comment and Cravens has
forgotten why he made it, and what exactly he had in mind. Since it is not
part of a published paper he should be forgiven. We all make mistakes.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 09:45:44 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21243;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:41:49 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:41:49 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <359BB84D.661347F5 css.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 11:41:49 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Murray: [your favorite Vortex CF message here]
References: <199807021551.IAA07513 pop4.ucdavis.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Es8hI2.0.mB5.BXxcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20276
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dan Quickert wrote:

> Excuse me for interrupting, but is there some compelling
> reason why you feel it necessary to repost Vortex messages
> to Vortex?? 

'Cause he's not just reposting the message to Vortex.  Murray seems commited to
instigating list cross over discussions (renaming probably helps him better
track the inevitable flame wars).  I definitely give him an 'A' for effort for
his continuous attempts to draw in people into discussions who have no interest
in them or subscribing to Vortex (...or his own listserv it seems...hmmm, you
would think that would be a big enough hint...).

> I'd have posted this privately, but am wondering if this has
> been bugging others also. 

Actually no.  I appreciate Rich's efforts to explicitly identify his
discussions.  Helps me filter out the noise (probably many here that feel the
same about my posts!  ha ha ).   8^)


John E. Steck
--------------------------------o]{:
  Senior Mechanical Engineer
  Rapid Tooling Applications
  Motorola CSS, Libertyville

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 11:01:22 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11211;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:51:31 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:51:31 -0700
Message-ID: <359BCCFB.107E bellsouth.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 11:10:03 -0700
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20  (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [Fwd: UFO UpDate: Burning Gas In Tornadoes Causes Many UFOs?]
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"BAdBN1.0.jk2.UYycr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20277
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Received: from mail2.bellsouth.net (mail2.bellsouth.net [205.152.16.6])
	by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA05567;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:34:02 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from smtp2.globalserve.net (smtp2.globalserve.net [209.90.128.7])
	by mail2.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA15990;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:34:01 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from buddy-guy (dialin518.toronto.globalserve.net [209.90.132.9])
	by smtp2.globalserve.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id JAA19655;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:52:58 -0400 (EDT)
	(envelope-from updates globalserve.net)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980702083525.0091e920 mail.globalserve.net>
X-Sender: updates mail.globalserve.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 08:35:25 -0400
To: updates globalserve.net
From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates globalserve.net>
Subject: UFO UpDate: Burning Gas In Tornadoes Causes Many UFOs?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

From: Stig_Agermose online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose)
To: updates globalserve.net
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 03:24:36 +0200
Subject: Burning Gas Inside Tornadoes Cause Of Many UFOs?


Thanks to The Press (New Zealand). URL:=20

http://www.press.co.nz:80/26/98070131.htm

Stig


*******


>From The Press - July 01, 1998


Burning gas inside tornadoes 'cause of UFOs'=20


PHOTO: JULIANNE MYERS-POULSEN=BF=BF=BF=BF=BF=BF=BF

(Photo text: Researcher Peter Coleman demonstrates equipment capable of
creating ball lightning in the laboratory.)=20


A new theory advanced by a University of Canterbury scientist suggests
many unidentified flying objects are balls of burning gas trapped
inside tornadoes.=20

Researcher Peter Coleman said his theory, published in a book, Ball
Lightning: A Scientific Mystery Explained, could apply to the Kaikoura
UFO sightings of 1978 and 1979, the Tunguska explosion in Siberia in
1908, human combustion, and numerous types of mysterious lights in the
sky.=20

According to the theory, ball lightning is produced when natural gas in
the atmosphere is caught in a vortex, then ignited by an electrical
charge such as conventional lightning or static electricity.=20

"If you had a tornado and you had a flame inside you would expect it to
blow out but there is a property called vortex breakdown that allows
the flame to survive in this high air speed environment. The vortex
bursts and creates recirculation like an eddy in a stream which allows
reduced air flow or stagnant air.=20

"It is like turning on your stove," said Mr Coleman, who has
demonstrated the effect in his laboratory using a vacuum cleaner,
pipes, and a camp stove.=20

"I could see the unconfined flame dancing around inside the pipe," he
said. The phenomenon had been observed all over the world. "I have
never seen it myself but the prediction the theory makes is that it
would be seen where there is a high concentration of natural gas and
some electrical source."=20

Mr Coleman said UFOs are often reported near fault lines because gas
was likely to be released before an earthquake.=20

He said seismic activity recorded in Cook Strait at the time of the
Kaikoura UFO sightings may have triggered a release of gas.=20


Copyright =A9 1998 The Christchurch Press Company Ltd. All rights
reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part in any form or medium
without express written permission of The Christchurch Press Company
Ltd. is prohibited. The Press, "The Press On-Line", "The Press" logo
and "The Press On-Line" logo are trademarks of The Christchurch Press
Company Ltd. =20


*Email us!=20


\_______________________________________________/

 UFO UpDates - Toronto - updates globalserve.net
 A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated=20
 by Errol Bruce-Knapp - 416-691-0716

 UFO UpDates Archives are available at
 http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

 MUFON Ontario's Home Page:
 http://www.globalserve.net/~updates/mufon/



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 11:36:46 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA04802;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:32:33 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:32:33 -0700
Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CBF xch-cpc-02>
From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Eagle Mills Water Wheel Powered Cider Mill Page One (http://w
	ww.eaglemillsfun.c
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:31:50 -0700
X-Priority: 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA04713
Resent-Message-ID: <"96XH41.0.mA1._8zcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20278
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frederick
	They have improved things since I left, gone bigger scale, and
added the bakery/cider mill and covered bridge.
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Frederick J Sparber[SMTP:fjsparb sprintmail.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, July 02, 1998 9:02 AM
> To: 	Vortex-l
> Cc: 	George
> Subject: 	Re: Eagle Mills Water Wheel Powered Cider Mill Page One
> (http://www.eaglemillsfun.c
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scudder, Henry J <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
> To: 'vortex-l eskimo.com' <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Date: Thursday, July 02, 1998 9:09 AM
> Subject: RE: Eagle Mills Water Wheel Powered Cider Mill Page One
> (http://www.eaglemillsfun.c
> 
> Gosh Hank, I thought I'd hit on small-scale Hydropower at it's best,
> not to
> mention
> apple cider.
> I was searching *water wheel powered mills*and hit this one. Their
> blub on
> Fitz water wheels was informative. A 40 foot diameter wheel could run
> off
> Niagara Falls.
> 
> I liked the music though.  :-)
> 
> Regards,  Frederick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >Frederick
> > This wheel is a tourist ripoff. I passed it several hundred
> >times when I lived in Schenectady. It is about 4 feet in diameter, a
> >foot wide, and sits in a small stream doing nothing but spinning
> slowly,
> >at the roadside in front of a tiny general store. Not very
> impressive.
> >
> >Hank
> >
> >> ----------
> >> From: Frederick J Sparber[SMTP:fjsparb sprintmail.com]
> >> Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 1998 8:19 PM
> >> To: Vortex-l
> >> Subject: Eagle Mills Water Wheel Powered Cider Mill Page One
> >> (http://www.eaglemillsfun.c
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Eagle Mills Cider Co.
> >>
> >>
> >> Eagle Mills Cider Mill Pic
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> A Water Powered Cider Mill
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Nestled in the foothills of the Adirondack Mountains, in
> Broadalbin,
> >> NY, Eagle Mills has lots to offer for old fashioned family fun!
> >> A visit to Eagle Mills is a step back in time. Pan for amethyst,
> >> rubies and other gems at Eagle Mills Gem Mine...watch the Water
> Wheel
> >> as it goes into action, powering the Cider Mill and Press...meander
> >> across the nostalgic Covered Bridge...or just relax "down by the
> Old
> >> Mill Stream" and Mill Pond with a glass of Eagle Mills sweet cider
> and
> >> a hot cider donut from the Eagle Mills Country Bakery.
> >> Owned by the Boyko family, Eagle Mills offers lots of open skies,
> >> fresh air and a unique experience in a rustic country atmosphere.
> >>
> >>
> >> Eagle Mills Cider Co
> >> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/main.html>  | Cider Mill &
> >> Press <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/cider_mill.html>  |
> >> Country Bakery & Covered Bridge
> >> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/covered_bridge.html>
> >> Art and Craft Show
> >> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/craft_show.html>  | Gem
> Stone
> >> Mining <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/gem_stone.html>  |
> Dino
> >> Dig <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/gem_stone.html#dinodig>
> |
> >> Field Trips and Tours
> >> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/tours.html>
> >> Contacting Eagle Mills
> >> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/info.html>  | Street
> >> Directions and Map
> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/map.html>
> >> | Other Web Links
> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/links.html>
> >>
> >> Eagle Mills ....... we make wonder-filled memories!
> >> E-mail CiderMill eaglemillsfun.com
> >>
> <http://www.eaglemillsfun.com/cidermill/mailto:CiderMill eaglemillsfun
> >> .com>
> >>
> >> Page Design by Starinfo <http://www.starinfo.com>
> >> © 1998 Eagle Mills Cider Co.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 12:00:43 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14699;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:54:52 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:54:52 -0700
Message-ID: <359BCB40.62B interlaced.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 14:02:40 -0400
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Boiled Lightning
References: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CBE xch-cpc-02>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"uoGHC.0.Pb3.wTzcr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20279
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Scudder, Henry J wrote:
> 
> Mike, Vortexans
>         There is a meter called an e-meter, available from electric
> vehicle and marine stores, which measures current, voltage,
> ampere-hours, kilowatt hours, etc. for battery monitoring. 

(snip good stuff on the e-meter)

Hank, you have had more experience than I from my short stint at NASA
Lewis working on EVs.  However, it seems to me that at best the Pb-acid
cell is a very "fuzzy" energy storage device.  As I recall, the charge
and discharge efficiency are both complex functions of "rate" to the
extent that even after the best measurement of amp-hours in, there
remains quite a bit of uncertainty about how much electrical energy you
will get out - isn't this true?  Electrolytic capacitors are better
but, I know from experience that even they have internal leakage that
needs to be considered if longer times are involved.
What say you, Hank?

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 12:21:07 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA07422;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:17:38 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:17:38 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <359BDD3B.E5B ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 12:19:23 -0700
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: tohmori pop.cat.hokudai.ac.jp, mizuno@hune.hokudai.ac.jp
Subject: Ohmori's ICCF-7 paper availble as e-mail attachments
References: <199807021551.IAA07513 pop4.ucdavis.edu> <359BB84D.661347F5@css.mot.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"e77sq1.0.up1.Gpzcr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20280
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July 02, 1998

Vortex,

With Dr. Ohmori's permission, the paper presented at the ICCF-7 is
available for distribution to anybody interested. The authors of the
paper are Drs. Ohmori and  Mizuno. 

The title:"Strong Excess Energy Evolution, New Element Production, and
Electromagnetic Wave and/or Neutron Emission in the Light Water
Electrolysis With a Tungsten Electrode". It may help in conducting your
own experiments or to help formulate discussion among yourselves or with
Ohmori and Mizuno.

I have converted six pages into JPEG files (Ohmori_1 to Ohmori_6) small
enough to fit into a 3.5" floppy. The files can be e-mailed as
attachments. Just ask. The download time is about 15 minutes. Depends on
modem. The files can be also sent as a floppy copy or snail mail copies.
I rather you do not ask though mentioned but I will consider requests.
The time it takes is the 'pain in ---'.

There are two color pictures in the paper which, for compact files, are
loaded as grey scale pictures. You still get the idea though. One color
picture is an actual photograph of the tungsten cathode electrode giving
off an arc-like bright white glow that centers around the electrode
without extending over to the encircling pt or pd anode, visually.
The other is a color tinted multi panel picture of pitting. There is
also a third B&W picture of a pitting.

The paper was kindly sent following an earlier post here in May in the
vortex which mentioned his last minute changed presentation at the
ICCF-7.  Out of courtesy to him since his name was mentioned, I sent him
a copy of the post. That post also concerned the videographing of the
ICCF-7 and his presentation in English. He will be receiving this
posting also.

A side note: Dr. Mizuno (co-author) gave a separate poster presentation
of a very similar experiment and getting similar results including the
'glow'. He used a different cathode material. I believe it was Pt or Pd.

Also mentioned in the earlier post was that they received more robust
results with heavy water but the details were not given. Something to
pursue also.

Last item: the year 1966 mentioned in the paper in reference is actually
1996.

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 13:12:36 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15655;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:06:58 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:06:58 -0700
Message-ID: <359BDAD7.3CEC earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 14:09:11 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Murray: [your favorite Vortex CF message here] 7.2.98
References: <199807021551.IAA07513 pop4.ucdavis.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Iifbc3.0.Kq3.XX-cr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20281
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

July 2, 1998

Hello Dan Quickert,  In this case, I added my own comments, creating a
package to send to my long private list and to sci.physics.fusion.  I'm
spending much less time at CF recently.

Regards,  Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 13:25:08 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21188;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:19:21 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:19:21 -0700
Message-ID: <359BDDC2.3049 earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 14:21:38 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Murray: Kawasaki: Ohmori's ICCF-7 paper 7.2.98
References: <199807021551.IAA07513 pop4.ucdavis.edu> <359BB84D.661347F5@css.mot.com> <359BDD3B.E5B@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"nfo6u1.0.gA5.5j-cr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20282
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July 2, 1998

Sure, Akira Kawasaki, I'd like the email attachment.

Regards,  Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 13:46:27 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19068;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:41:16 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:41:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102800b1c19fa32ee6 [12.64.37.30]>
In-Reply-To: <359BDD3B.E5B ix.netcom.com>
References: <199807021551.IAA07513 pop4.ucdavis.edu>
 <359BB84D.661347F5 css.mot.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:37:54 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Ohmori's ICCF-7 paper availble as e-mail attachments
Resent-Message-ID: <"TRjGk1.0.qf4.g1_cr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20283
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Akira

Would it be possible for these papers to be posted on one of the websites
some vortexians maintain? No e-mailing/disk-mailing hassles.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 14:04:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06385;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:00:27 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:00:27 -0700
Message-Id: <359BF494.2F406A5B verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 23:59:00 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: UFO UpDate: Burning Gas In Tornadoes Causes Many UFOs?]
References: <359BCCFB.107E bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"e5Efy.0.cZ1.gJ_cr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20284
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

[snip]
> >From The Press - July 01, 1998
> 
> Burning gas inside tornadoes 'cause of UFOs'
> 
> PHOTO: JULIANNE MYERS-POULSEN¿¿¿¿¿¿¿
> 
> (Photo text: Researcher Peter Coleman demonstrates equipment capable of
> creating ball lightning in the laboratory.)
> 
> A new theory advanced by a University of Canterbury scientist suggests
> many unidentified flying objects are balls of burning gas trapped
> inside tornadoes.
> 
[snip]


Sensitive subject (like public heath issues), must be careful. If one (scientist) claim some soaps that we use *may* cause diseases (referencing some cases occurred where the cause remained unknown), regarding some laboratory tests on cultivating some bac

teria on soaped solutions, this will be not appropriate.

Rare atmospheric phenomena ... everything can be explained by rare atmospheric phenomena. Anyone had yet detected high concentration of flammable gas sustained in atmosphere? May these are results of kind of electrolysis of water in the clouds by the char

ges build in? And light balls are recombination of H and O. More probable. We can also relate such UFO sighting to airborne natural Brown Gas production, using this logic.  

I am still upset, and continue to give examples:
... 
This is the same thing as saying some UFO sightings *may* be related to lost frisbees in sky which are flying away by anomalous atmospheric conditions (and giving magnified images by atmospheric density fluctuations). Creating a special vortex in air to k

eep frisbees flying not suffice for such a claim.

We know many of apparently mysterious event relative observer occurring in sky are not related to UFO's even they are reflected to UFO news, such a turning disco lights spots projected to cloudy sky. This claim make sense because these cases are verified 

later, not hypothetic as ball lighting theory. 

Calmed now. :)

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 14:16:57 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22945;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:13:08 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:13:08 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <359BE993.5C66 earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 15:12:03 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Murray: Trenergy, Inc, Garb-Oil, INE  7.2.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"H3d7y3.0.Pc5.XV_cr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20285
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July 2, 1998

http://x4.dejanews.com/=hotbot/getdoc.xp?AN=355234816.2&CONTEXT=899411809.598671631&hitnum=0

SALT LAKE CITY, May 18, 1998 - Garb-Oil & Power Co. has signed an 
agreement with Trenergy, Inc. to build process plants that stabilize 
radioactive wastes by a proces called amelioration.

http://recycle.net/recycle/equip/garb-oil.html

Garb-Oil & Power Corp.
      No. 10 Exchange Place, Suite 507
      Newhouse Office Building
      Salt Lake City Utah
      USA 84111
      Tel: 801-322-5410
      Fax: 801-363-1701
      Contact: John Brewer  garb recycle.net

http://www.recycle.net/garb-oil/

PATENTED RUBBER RECYCLING TECHNOLOGY 

Welcome to Garb-Oil & Power
Corporation's Internet Storefront 
Garb-Oil & Power Corporation (Garb-Oil) is the
only company with "PATENTED" state of the art
equipment and processes to recover the all natural
rubber from Off the Road (OTR) tires. This rubber is
the most valuable rubber available for making Crumb
Rubber.

License Opportunities Worldwide !!! 

Garb-Oil has now made this technology available on a
license basis worldwide. 

Garb-Oil designs and constructs rubber recycling
plants on a turnkey basis to recycle Truck
tires into black crumb rubber and all natural crumb
rubber from OTR tires. These types and grades of
crumb rubber are the most desirable and best
recycled rubber for manufacturing rubber products. 

Higher percentages of this product can be used in
rubber manufacturing, making it possible to conserve
the virgin rubber normally used in the process. By
saving or conserving the virgin rubber normally used in
manufacturing it reduces the cost of production and
creates a good market for the HIGH GRADE crumb
rubber. 

GARB-OIL IS THE ONLY COMPANY WITH THIS
PATENTED TECHNOLOGY

If you are interested in the opportunity of making good
investment returns, give us a call and let us show you
how easy it is to get into the fastest growing, cash
rewarding new business available. 

[From Gene Mallove, June 30, 1998]
Hal Fox found this marvelous article, since it relates to some of the
work his Trenergy Company is doing with charge clusters and
radioactivity reduction.

http://www.padrak.com/ine/index.shtml#ORGS

The Institute for New Energy (INE)
P.O. Box 58639
Salt Lake City, UT 84158-8639
TEL 801-583-6232
FAX 801-583-2963
Email: Hal Fox, in Utah, halfox slkc.uswest.net
Email: Patrick Bailey, in California, ine padrak.com
Website: http://www.padrak.com/ine/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 15:23:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04617;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:18:57 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:18:57 -0700
Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CC0 xch-cpc-02>
From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Boiled Lightning
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:06:25 -0700
X-Priority: 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"0SRyL3.0.v71.ET0dr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20286
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frank
		The Cruising Equipment people have done a lot of work on
this, and included it in the software inside the meter. You have to
enter the Peukert factor for your type of battery as part of the setup,
or they will assume a general one for you. The Peukert factor reduces
the battery capability as a function of the current drawn. The part most
interesting to Vortex would be the energy measurement, where they
compute the current*voltage, and sum over the time. The ampere hour part
is most useful for telling when you have recharged the battery fully.
You are right about the fuzzyness of batteries. They are non-linear, and
time and temperature varying. In an EV you usually don't want to
completely discharge the batteries, and the e-meter gives you a
numerical measure of where you are in terms of ampere hours used, or
recharged. It also has warning lights, red, yellow, and green, and
blinking green when fully charged. For example, to climb my hill to go
home, I need about 20 Ah, and completely discharged is about 140Ah. I
need to recharge before climbing if the meter reads below -120Ah. In
practice,  I don't let it get below 100Ah before plugging it in. The
voltage varies from about 80 volts fully charged, to about 65v when it
reads -140Ah. I have 12 6volt batteries in series, Trojan T-125s. I pull
about 500 to 700 Amperes from the battery as I climb my hill. (10%
grade, 30 mph, 1 mile long). My particular e-meter doesn't have the KWH
feature, but Ah is what I really need for the car. For a CF experiment,
you would want the energy measurement.

	Hank 
> ----------
> From: 	Francis J. Stenger[SMTP:fstenger interlaced.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, July 02, 1998 11:02 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Boiled Lightning
> 
> Scudder, Henry J wrote:
> > 
> > Mike, Vortexans
> >         There is a meter called an e-meter, available from electric
> > vehicle and marine stores, which measures current, voltage,
> > ampere-hours, kilowatt hours, etc. for battery monitoring. 
> 
> (snip good stuff on the e-meter)
> 
> Hank, you have had more experience than I from my short stint at NASA
> Lewis working on EVs.  However, it seems to me that at best the
> Pb-acid
> cell is a very "fuzzy" energy storage device.  As I recall, the charge
> and discharge efficiency are both complex functions of "rate" to the
> extent that even after the best measurement of amp-hours in, there
> remains quite a bit of uncertainty about how much electrical energy
> you
> will get out - isn't this true?  Electrolytic capacitors are better
> but, I know from experience that even they have internal leakage that
> needs to be considered if longer times are involved.
> What say you, Hank?
> 
> Frank Stenger
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 15:50:23 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14157;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:48:42 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:48:42 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980702174854.00ca6dcc mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 17:48:54 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Ohmori's ICCF-7 paper availble as e-mail attachments
In-Reply-To: <l03102800b1c19fa32ee6 [12.64.37.30]>
References: <359BDD3B.E5B ix.netcom.com>
 <199807021551.IAA07513 pop4.ucdavis.edu>
 <359BB84D.661347F5 css.mot.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"imwFt3.0.5T3.9v0dr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20287
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:37 7/2/98 -1000, Rick wrote:
>Akira
>
>Would it be possible for these papers to be posted on one of the websites
>some vortexians maintain? No e-mailing/disk-mailing hassles.

That sounds pretty good.  Send me the paper, Aki, and I'll put it up on our
web site.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 16:32:08 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25061;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:26:26 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:26:26 -0700
X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Boiled Lightning
Message-Id: <19980702232558.KFJU29455 Default>
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:25:58 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"QnL5D.0.P76.XS1dr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20288
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:43 PM 7/1/98 -1000, you wrote:
>MPowers writes:
>
>  > The residue of this experiment may be
>  > of interest to Joe Champion fans.
>
>Is there a good quantity of powdered electrode remnant left over when
>electrodes get eaten up? Is such material turning up apparent
>transmutations or isotopic shifts?
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
>
The Pt wires were sleeved in tight fitting tubing, which, in at least a few
instances, burned.  That makes it hard to determine what the stuff at the
bottom of the beaker was.  The electrolyte became darker after running for a
while, so I expect that much of the reaction product was in solution.  You
might try a funnel with a paper filter.

Ed Wall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 16:38:30 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28385;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:34:48 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:34:48 -0700
Message-ID: <359C16E7.1765 skylink.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 16:25:27 -0700
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Biot-Savart law valid?
References: <v01530500b1c0b1e795fa [208.228.222.122]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"YZr3A.0.Nx6.Ma1dr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20289
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:
> Below are a set of questions concerning the use of the Biot-Savart law to
> model magnetic fields generated by current loops, e.g. wires, of varying
> geometries, and then to use the derived fields to calculate the forces on
> the current elements using the Lorentz law.  

Horace. What you have for the Biot-Savart law looks
OK to me. But maybe you need to re-evaluate what
you are trying to do. Is your approach meaningful
to begin with?

If your objective is to assess the Grassman/Biot-
Savart force law relative to Ampere's force law,
you may not be abl to meet your objectivie by looking 
solely at the magnetic field of a current element. 
Ampere's law is identical to Biot-Savart for transverse 
force components, but Ampere's law also contains a 
longitudinal force between current elements. The 
longitudinal force in Ampere's law results from an 
induced E field. It does not result from a B field. 
There is no B field in the longitudinal direction. 
Biot-Savart have this right, and so does Ampere. If
you look at the force which reults between two current 
elements, based on use of the B field, you will always 
find only a transverse component.  

In order to see that Ampere's law is correct it is 
necessary to use the magnetic vector potential of 
the current element rather than the B field. 

The Lorentz force equation:  F = q(E + v(cross)B)

The electric field E can result from three things:
the coulomb field, a time varying A field (dA/dt), 
or relative motion through an A field which has a 
spacial derivative in the direction of motion, 
(v)dot(del)A. It is motion through a spacially 
varying A field, (v)dot(del)A, which results in 
Ampere's longitudinal force. Note that this has 
the same dimensions as dA/dt, and from the perspective 
of the moving charge it appears to be dA/dt.

Ampere got it right.

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 19:27:11 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23337;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 19:25:47 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 19:25:47 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <359C406F.7A46 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 19:22:39 -0700
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: aki ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Ohmori's ICCF-7 paper availble as e-mail attachments
References: <199807021551.IAA07513 pop4.ucdavis.edu>
	 <359BB84D.661347F5 css.mot.com> <l03102800b1c19fa32ee6@[12.64.37.30]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Cir2N3.0.Zi5.f44dr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20290
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July 2, 1998

No problem. Glad to do this if asked. Can send the jpeg files to anyone
with a website wishing to do same. But sometimes the websites are
claimed to be full to overflowing with previous mountings. 
I'll wait for any request along that line. Thanks for the suggestion.

-AK-

Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Akira
> 
> Would it be possible for these papers to be posted on one of the websites
> some vortexians maintain? No e-mailing/disk-mailing hassles.
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 19:54:24 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA08628;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 19:53:16 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 19:53:16 -0700
Message-ID: <359C47BA.146A interlaced.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 22:53:47 -0400
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: (off topic)+Re: Boiled Lightning
References: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CC0 xch-cpc-02>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"i195u.0.i62.SU4dr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20291
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Scudder, Henry J wrote:

(snip more good stuff on the "battery meter")

Thanks, Hank.
In case other Vortexians are interested, do you know of a good source
of used (i.e., cheap) small DC traction motors?  I'm thinking 1 HP or
so for an electric "off road" transporter for one person - maybe 24 or
36 volts?  I think "Unique Mobility" is it? - may sell such things for
big bucks but I have an old lawn tractor that might work well as a base
vehicle.  Maybe you can go off-list if no one else is interested.
(PS: I need hill climbing ability - thus the gearing on the lawn trac.)
Thanks,

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 20:06:18 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28896;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 20:03:56 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 20:03:56 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <359C4965.6958 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 20:00:53 -0700
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Ohmori's ICCF-7 paper availble as e-mail attachments
References: <359BDD3B.E5B ix.netcom.com>
	 <199807021551.IAA07513 pop4.ucdavis.edu>
	 <359BB84D.661347F5 css.mot.com> <3.0.1.32.19980702174854.00ca6dcc@mail.eden.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"y4cX61.0.M37.Qe4dr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20292
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July 2, 1998

vortex:

Scott Little wrote in ref. to Rick's suggestion:

> That sounds pretty good.  Send me the paper, Aki, and I'll put it up >on our web site.

The jpeg files has been sent to Scott.
Anybody else still wanting the files sent individually, no problem. Just
ask.

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  2 20:35:14 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20934;
	Thu, 2 Jul 1998 20:33:39 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 20:33:39 -0700
Message-Id: <v01530500b1c1f5bde573 [208.228.222.166]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 19:35:26 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Biot-Savart law valid?
Resent-Message-ID: <"dtIZP.0.075.J45dr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20293
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 4:25 PM 7/2/98, Robert Stirniman wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>> Below are a set of questions concerning the use of the Biot-Savart law to
>> model magnetic fields generated by current loops, e.g. wires, of varying
>> geometries, and then to use the derived fields to calculate the forces on
>> the current elements using the Lorentz law.
>
>Horace. What you have for the Biot-Savart law looks
>OK to me. But maybe you need to re-evaluate what
>you are trying to do. Is your approach meaningful
>to begin with?
[snip]

My primary objective is to build a finite element model, using Biot-Savart
and Lorentz laws, that produces results that are considered accurate by
present theory.  I am only interested in a correct model by present theory
at this time.  The input data specifies closed circuits consisting of
current carrying elements.

I do believe the method spelled out earlier, using the Biot-Savart and
Lorentz laws as stated, is a standard method in much use.  I am hoping to
get confirmation of this.  It appears from the brief remarks in the Feynman
Lectures on Physics, p.14-10, that this is true.

I am especially interested in any limitations of the above method, but also
possibly in known anomalies to investigate.  For example I received the
following from Chris Strevens <cjr.strevens ukonline.co.uk>:

>"The use of this method of calculation predicts a lower field at the centre
>of the circular coil of wire than near the wire,
>
>
>
>I have done computer modelling of this and there appears to be a law that
>in a circular coil the field increases linearly from the centre, but the
>effect is small.  Close to the wire the field is twice that at the centre.
>Measurements with plotting compass appears to confirm this prediction,
>"

I don't know Chris Stevens' background, qualifications, or thoroughness of
his work, however.


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  3 02:04:57 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA04945;
	Fri, 3 Jul 1998 02:03:02 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 02:03:02 -0700
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102800b1c24b1c78ad [12.64.66.97]>
In-Reply-To: <359C4965.6958 ix.netcom.com>
References: <359BDD3B.E5B ix.netcom.com>	
 <199807021551.IAA07513 pop4.ucdavis.edu>	 <359BB84D.661347F5@css.mot.com>
 <3.0.1.32.19980702174854.00ca6dcc mail.eden.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:01:52 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Ohmori's ICCF-7 paper availble as e-mail attachments
Resent-Message-ID: <"NX7U21.0.6D1.5v9dr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20294
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Much thanks to Scott for offering to host the paper, and to Akira for
providing it to him!

I don't like to wait for one giant e-mail when I want to dl my mail, you
see. It's much better to get mail fast, then go dl a file while you read
mail or do something else. I have AT&T, and getting e-mail off there with
Eudora Light is...sorta jumpy, and the process seems to be easily broken if
the CPU doesn't give it the cycles it wants exactly when it wants 'em.
Netscape's not a problem dl-ing files though.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  3 07:08:58 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA31889;
	Fri, 3 Jul 1998 07:01:19 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 07:01:19 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:57:31 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Splarge Ohmori cell output
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807031000_MC2-520A-7441 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"sFgG-2.0.Ao7.kGEdr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20295
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Rick Monteverde worried that the water in an Ohmori cell might be evaporated
faster because of violent mixing and frothing. I think this problem can be
eliminated by using a tall vessel with a restricted outlet, say a plug with a
small tube coming out of it. Before the run a pocket of air would be trapped
in the top of the vessel. Most of the air would be driven out by water vapor,
and the rest would be saturated. I think you will only see increased
evaporation because of mixing if you allow replacement air reach the interface
with the top of the water and the spray and froth. The tall vessel will help
prevent that.

However, we still have this issue of entrained unboiled droplettes leaving the
cell, which was raised by the NHE with regard to the Pons and Fleischmann
cell. It is a legitimate problem, although not in the case of P&F, who checked
for it rigorously by measuring the lithium left in the cell after it boiled
dry. In general, measuring the enthalpy of a boiling cell is tricky because of
high temperatures, large unaccounted losses, phase changes and so on. I think
a good way to circumvent these problems would be to condense the vapor in a
closed, insulated container, by bubbling it through water. This is called
"splarging" -- a wonderful word not found in most dictionaries.

Here is how I would arrange it. Use a well-insulated electrolysis cell so that
most of the heat is lost to vapor. Make it a tall vessel with a plug and a
tube. Place a Dewar vessel next to the electrolysis cell, and fill it with 300
ml of water at room temperature. It should have a top with a small orifice,
about twice the diameter of the electrolysis outlet tube, or two orifices. The
electrolysis outlet tube goes into the Dewar orifice, and under the water to
the bottom of the Dewar. Effluent gas from boiling and electrolysis is forced
through the tube and under the water. The vapor condenses but the free oxygen
and hydrogen bubbles through, rises to the surface, and goes out the open
orifice. Most of the heat from the vapor is captured, warming up the water in
the Dewar. This experiment is quick. It can be run in ten minutes, so the
water in the Dewar will not have time to lose significant heat, and a simple,
straight line approximation of enthalpy can be computed based on the increase
in water temperature: calories = grams of water times degrees C. Naturally,
much heat will be lost with this method, but that does not matter as long as
it shows excess energy and it verifies the energy calculation based on the
mass of vaporized water. We do not care how inaccurate it is, as long as we
can be sure all major errors make it an underestimation.

The Dewar should be as close to the electrolysis cell as possible, and the
tube from the electrolysis cell to the top of the Dewar should be insulated.
The Dewar may require more than 300 ml of water. The less water you fill it
with, the higher the temperature will rise, and the more sensitive the
measurement will be. However, the Dewar water should be held under 50 deg C,
or it will begin to lose heat rapidly. Input is ~45 watts (150 V * 0.3 A).
Over 10 minutes this comes to 6,429 calories, so input power alone should
raise the Dewar water temperature 21 degrees. This should be verified in a
control run with a joule heater.


It has been suggested here that this experiment should be run with a battery,
instead of standard direct current laboratory power supplies. This would be a
can of worms. Measuring the power from a battery should not be any more
difficult than a DC power supply, but power will drop off over time which
complicates the experiment, and the idea behind this is to circumvent the need
for power measurements because in theory we know how much energy a battery can
hold. In practice, nobody knows how much a battery holds, and nobody knows the
optimum way to tap the energy to exhaustion. Various electrochemical tricks
are used to extend battery life or speed up recharging. Most of these tricks
involve varying the output or input power, pulsing it, reversing current
briefly and so on. Sophisticated rapid commercial rechargers using these
tricks have been patented. The Ohmori cell produces fluctuations, so people
would say it is enhancing battery output and causing an usually deep drain. If
the effect produced 30% excess, nobody -- least of all I -- would believe it
on the basis of a battery test. If it produced 300% excess the battery would
be unnecessary, because only an idiot would doubt that result measured with
standard techniques. In every case, I strongly suggest that you *stick with
the standard, convention, tried-and-true* methods. Use a power supply, a meter
and a scope. Any complication and anything out of the ordinary like a battery
will confuse the issue and add to the uncertainty and complexity of the
experiment.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  3 10:30:02 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA07654;
	Fri, 3 Jul 1998 10:24:56 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 10:24:56 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:20:12 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Non-experts reinvent the wheel
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807031324_MC2-520B-FD9E compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"z5dzC.0.St1.dFHdr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20296
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

In the discussion here I have said recently that non-experts have little hope
of success doing CF experiments. I'd like to illustrate one of the reasons
why, in a plaintive tale from an ICCF conference years ago. I must make it
obscure, for reasons that shall be clear.

I do not recall the which lecture it was . . . but two teams of Japanese
researchers spent 40 minutes describing painfully difficult techniques they
had developed over a couple of years. It was the usual thing, like "vacuum
annealing to recrystalize and grains and clean the surface with thermal
etching" (picking an NHE paper at random). Or maybe it was an mensuration
technique. Anyway, I barely understood the lectures. I wondered if they made
sense to an expert, so I approached a well-known electrochemist who is quite
familiar with the NHE work, and who attended the lecture (not Fleischmann).
I asked, "do you think that technique works? Is it effective, and worth two
years of their time, or is there an easier way?" He responded, as I recall,
"yes, I am sure it is a good technique. It has been in the literature for
fifty years; look it up in a graduate level textbook. If these people have
enough time I expect they will reinvent many other techniques."

Here is another sad illustration of non-expert mistakes. I can make this a
little more specific, since it happened years ago and I do not suppose Ed
Storms will mind by now. A researcher decided he would try to measure cathode
volume, as suggested in the Storms paper "How to Produce the Pons-Fleischmann
Effect." The paper recommends you use a caliper to measure the dimensions of
the cathode. This works well with a foil. You measure in six spots across the
surface, positioned like the spots on dice. After electrolysis you will find
the center has "pillowed out." If the volume has increased by more than a few
percent, the cathode is not good. On the face of it, this is a crude way to
measure volume. Anyone can think of a more accurate method, and the first
method that pops into most people's heads was invented by Archimedes to
measure the purity of gold in an irregular sample (a crown) by submerging it
in water and measuring displacement. He (Archimedes, not Storms) was
supposedly himself submerged in water when he had this idea, and he ran buck
naked down the street, something I have never seen a CF scientist do, come to
think of it . . . <ahem> Anyway, Archimedes' method does not work well with a
deuterated metal cathode, because the hydrogen leaks out and forms bubbles
which displace the water before rising to the surface, so the water level
fluctuates. You have to measure while the bubbles are forming, before the
cathode de-gases and shrinks back to its original shape. An experienced
electrochemist would know this by instinct, based on long experience.

The scientist who was setting about to do this experiment consulted with
Storms, who explained these problems. Alas, as so often happens, the message
did not get through. Many months passed. The scientist got back in touch with
Storms and said the volumetric studies were not going well. The problem, he
explained, was that caliper measurements were "not precise enough" so he
decided to use Archimedes' method instead, but it was not working because of
the bubbles. They had tried many methods to stop the bubbles. They finally
decided to fill the cathode only to the alpha phase, and to wait until the it
fully de-gassed before measuring volume. This fixed the problem wit precision.
They had not seen significant changes in volume. Nor would they, because as I
hope the reader realizes, these methods defeat the purpose of tests, which
is to measure volume *immediately after the cathode is subjected to high
loading*. The researcher and his colleagues had spent six months (more than a
man-year) wrecking the experiment by doing what Storms advised them not to
do.

That may sound stupid. You might think people would not go off the track
and spend years doing the experiment the wrong way, defeating their own
purpose. Unfortunately, this sort of thing happens often. Often, as in this
case, the error is caused by the misguided obsession with precision. The
researchers decided the caliper technique is "not precise enough." They did
not ask themselves "precise enough for what purpose"? The paper says beware
of expansion beyond 2 or 3%. With practice, you can 1% with confidence, so
the caliper method is good enough. Instead of thinking carefully about why
they were measuring volume, what Storms had warned them about, and how the
metal acts as it gases and de-gases, these people went off on a tangent,
forgot what they were trying to accomplish, and went about adding
meaningless extra digits of precision to their measurements, which no longer
measured anything of interest.

Inexperienced amateurs will make obvious errors, like Steve Jones when he held
the palladium in his bare fingers, or turned the power down a thousand times
lower than the recommended levels, or like Tom Droege when he accidentally
galvanized filth and insects on to the cathode. These mistakes instantly
destroy the experiments, as most people will understand. Unfortunately, after
you learn to avoid such elementary errors, and you start doing real
experiments in which you measure the effect of surface treatment variations,
or geometry, grain size or any of the other critical parameters, you will then
find new ways to make mistakes which are subtle, and difficult to detect, not
like insects glued to cathodes. The more you get into electrochemistry, the
more parameters you measure, the more way you will find to screw up. You might
go for years making a mistake that Bockris or Mizuno would spot instantly,
because Mizuno made the same mistake 25 years ago and Bockris bawled him out,
and Bockris make it 50 years ago and *his* professor gave him what-for. A
person more skilled in chemistry and physics than me might read a large chunk
of the textbooks and learn these dos and don'ts directly. A person who does
not read them will waste years reinventing the wheel and making elementary,
avoidable, ignorant mistakes. Or he will do blind experiments without
measuring parameters, the way Scott Little has done, which is like shooting
in the dark. It is like trying to bake a cake by randomly selecting flour,
eggs, corn starch, tapioca and anything else at hand in your kitchen, mixing
them in pan, setting the oven temperature blindfolded, and baking for a
random duration between 10 minutes and 10 hours. Everyone knows that your
chances of getting an edible cake by that method are nil. Everyone knows that
the oven temperature is a critical parameter when baking a cake. I do not
understand why people argue with experts like Fleischmann when he says that
electrochemistry also requires rigor, knowledge, experience and attention to
critical parameters like the temperature, cathode volume, etc. People who
think we should be able to whip up a CF experiment in the basement would not
claim you should be able to bake a cake as easily.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  3 11:47:41 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA30282;
	Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:44:31 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:44:31 -0700
X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Splarge Ohmori cell output
Message-Id: <19980703184402.YHTQ29455 Default>
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 18:44:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"84EJd.0.4P7.EQIdr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20297
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed Rothwell wrote:
<snip>

>I think
>a good way to circumvent these problems would be to condense the vapor in a
>closed, insulated container, by bubbling it through water. This is called
>"splarging" -- a wonderful word not found in most dictionaries.

Actually, it is 'sparging' as found in my Webster's.  I agree its a good
idea and that unaccountable heat losses will only make any estimate of
excess heat conservative and sparging all the way through a deep container
of water with something to make the bubbles small (like one of those
aquarium things) will extract most of the heat and water from the vapor.  If
we can still see excess heat with reasonable sigma from such a simple
apparatus, it's Q.E.D.  If Ohmori & Mizuno's cell is anywhere near 2.6 O/U,
this should show it clearly and allow the cell to operate with very violent
boiling.  It also means that a thermometer does not have to be near the
electrodes.  Making the electrolysis cell a Dewar seems wise.

<snip>
>
>It has been suggested here that this experiment should be run with a battery,
>instead of standard direct current laboratory power supplies. This would be a
>can of worms. Measuring the power from a battery should not be any more
>difficult than a DC power supply, but power will drop off over time which
>complicates the experiment, and the idea behind this is to circumvent the
>need for power measurements because in theory we know how much energy a
>battery can hold. In practice, nobody knows how much a battery holds, and
>nobody knows the optimum way to tap the energy to exhaustion.  

<snip>

I would try very large paralleled capacitors with suitably high WVDC
ratings, using drain resistors to reduce chances of severe electric shock if
the experiment is concluded prematurely and an open circuit condition exists
(remember it still takes a while to discharge).  I expect an in-line ammeter
and voltmeter reading Vdc to give reasonably accurate results, but higher
frequency components should be monitored with at least a high bandwidth true
RMS voltmeter, and even a spectrum analyzer.  Still, it is a simple
experiment.  Maybe too simple, as failure to see O/U does not mean that
Ohmori and Mizuno did not.

Ed Wall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  3 13:55:21 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26199;
	Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:53:15 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:53:15 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 16:48:14 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Sparge Ohmori cell output
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807031652_MC2-521D-ACC5 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"aqsER2.0.BP6.wIKdr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20298
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Ed Wall explains:

     Actually, it is 'sparging' as found in my Webster's.

Well NO WONDER I couldn't find it! Its still a great word, like antimacassar.
Look that one up! You'd never guess the origin.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  3 14:35:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05604;
	Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:32:01 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:32:01 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980703163312.00871ac0 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified)
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 16:33:12 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Ohmori paper now available
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"lhU4R1.0.UN1.HtKdr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20299
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

The Ohmori-Mizuno paper (re the incandescent W cathode), courtesy of Akira
Kawasaki, is now available on our web site at the following address:

http://www.eden.com/~little/ohmori.html


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  3 15:56:45 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11363;
	Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:55:32 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:55:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [a bit off-topic] "Knowledge"
Message-Id: <19980703224240.BEVW29455 Default>
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 22:42:40 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"Ah6Ds2.0.Tn2.Y5Mdr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20300
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

"More and more...today's universities and professsional societies guard
their knowledge.  Collusively, the university biology curriculum, the
textbook publishers, the National Science Foundation review comittees, the
Graduate Record examiners, and the various microbiological, evolutionary,
and zoological societies map out domains of the known and knowable;  they
distinguish required from forbidden knowledge, subtly punishing the
trespassers with rejection and oblivion;  they award the faithful liturgists
by granting degrees and dispersing funds and fellowships.  Universities and
academies...determine who is permitted to know and just what it is that he
or she may know.  Biology, botany, zoology, biochemistry, and microbiology
departments within U.S. universities determine access to knowledge about
life, dispensing it at high prices in peculiar parcels called credit hours."

Lynn Margulis and Dorion Sagan, "Slanted Truths: Essays on Gaia, Symbiosis
and Evolution" (New York:Springer-Verlag, 1997), p. 265


Did they leave out the science departments?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  3 16:43:28 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15215;
	Fri, 3 Jul 1998 16:41:25 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 16:41:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102800b1c3093622e8 [12.64.66.48]>
In-Reply-To: <199807031000_MC2-520A-7441 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:27:54 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Splarge Ohmori cell output
Resent-Message-ID: <"Ff5AR3.0.dj3.YmMdr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20301
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed writes:

   >  Rick Monteverde worried that the water in an
   >  Ohmori cell might be evaporated faster
   >  because of violent mixing and frothing.

Entrainment, yeah - that's the word I was groping for.<g>

I got the impression that the cell that Gene(?) measured to be quite OU was
calculated on the basis of boiled off missing water in addition to the
temperature of the remaining water. I may have misread/misunderstood the
post. But if was just a beaker of boiling water in the open air, I'd really
be suspicious of the results. It takes so little energy to mechanically
hurl water mist into the air/steam flow and let the room add the remaining
evaporation energy necessary instead of having the electricity in your cell
do it all. The relatively high voltage might even be helping if the fine
droplets tend to have charge and repel the surfaces and other droplets.
This effect can easily be seen on the ocean surface, where swarms of tiny
spheres from a splash sit out above the surface and dance around while they
evaporate. Popping bubbles from foam toss off zillions of these little mist
droplets.

I like the dewar idea because it catches any water from steam and mist
coming out the top of the tall vessel, and keeps the room air out of the
experiment. It does have to be vented somewhere for pressure. I guess after
going through the dewar the remaining vapor and gas could be contained in
an insulated accumulator for a completely closed system. Don't think that's
even necessary, since after running through the dewar water there's
probably not much vapor left, let alone larger mist volumes stealing water
away and pooching the results. I think the deal is that if you can account
for most of the water through such a method, and any remaining water loss
viewed as thermal energy laid against your efficiency doesn't threaten
large OU figures, then that should certainly take care of the electric
powered dunking bird objection.

As for the P_IN measurements, there might be a grotesquely silly, yet
convincing way to do it: drive a generator mounted to a pulley shaft using
decending weights on a halyard type chain loop. A bicycle could be used to
gear up to usable generator speed. Get Barry Merriman to heft the weights
up onto the hitching points. Even *he'd* be going OU!

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  3 17:55:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24685;
	Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:54:45 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:54:45 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199807040044.UAA12049 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Splarge Ohmori cell output
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 98 20:47:01 -0000
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"hqQh31.0.d16.IrNdr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20303
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rick Monteverde wrote:

>I got the impression that the cell that Gene(?) measured to be quite OU was
>calculated on the basis of boiled off missing water in addition to the
>temperature of the remaining water.
>I may have misread/misunderstood the
>post. 

Credit is taken for 15 deg heat up from 80 to 95 deg approximately -- 
actually on this particular run the start point was hard to define. Also, 
Ed reminds me that on this run the cathode got close to the thermometer 
and broke it open --terminating the run.   .The main credit goes to the 
boil off of 10 ml of water . Remember that this might be conservative, 
since there is very signifcant collection of condensed vapor on the 
plastic top with holes in it that we had.  This water falls back -- some 
of it -- and is reboiled.

>But if was just a beaker of boiling water in the open air, I'd really
>be suspicious of the results.

> It takes so little energy to mechanically
>hurl water mist into the air/steam flow and let the room add the remaining

But it seem pretty clear that vapor is what mostly comes off. I watched 
the surface of the water under separate illumination on another run and 
did not see massive droplet illumination, as I recall. A few droplets 
falling back, perhaps as the bubbles broke the surface.

>evaporate. Popping bubbles from foam toss off zillions of these little mist
>droplets.

Yes, that is why the post boil condenser is so important. Jed's sparging 
idea may not be as easy to implement as a simple condenser. 

>
>As for the P_IN measurements, there might be a grotesquely silly, yet
>convincing way to do it: drive a generator mounted to a pulley shaft using
>decending weights on a halyard type chain loop. A bicycle could be used to
>gear up to usable generator speed. Get Barry Merriman to heft the weights
>up onto the hitching points. Even *he'd* be going OU!

I wish Barry would just check out the plasma-like appearance of the 
effect and tell us what he thinks -- he's a plasma man, right? And a 
fluid mechanics man too, I thought.
>
Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  3 17:56:01 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24674;
	Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:54:44 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:54:44 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199807040044.UAA11980 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: [a bit off-topic] "Knowledge"
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 98 20:46:57 -0000
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"6Zhzo2.0.R16.HrNdr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20302
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>Lynn Margulis and Dorion Sagan, "Slanted Truths: Essays on Gaia, Symbiosis
>and Evolution" (New York:Springer-Verlag, 1997), p. 265


Wonderful quote sent through by Ed Wall. I know and admire Lynn Margulis. 
  Her quote applies perfectly to anti-CF  sentiments at universities -- a 
rebel in the field of biology. Maligned, like Jom Lovelock.

Sadly, Margulis's brother-in-law, physics Nobel laureate Sheldon Glashow, 
polluted her mind abotu cold fusion. (even though he does not known what 
the hell he is talking about on that subject -- like Lederman, like 
Seaborg, Kendall and the other "Feshbachites" of the world.) That's what 
she told me. Her first husband, Carl Sagan, had a pretty neutral position 
on cold fusion as I pointed out in a past issue of IE. In fact, as I 
quoted him in a 1990 speech to the National Association of Science 
Writers that I attended at Cornel U., he warned them NOT to jump to 
negative conclusions about CF. Unfortunately, these media maggots mostly 
did not get the message.

Carl received IE until he  died. One of his last letters to me was 
poignant -- something like "I'm trying to believe, Gene, but I find it 
hard."  I'll get the actual words some day when I straighten out my 
bulging Sagan file. Letters to and from him back to 1963 -- during my 
past life as an interstellar propulsion/SETI bibliographer and writer.

Best, Gene  Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  3 18:04:42 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26749;
	Fri, 3 Jul 1998 18:03:13 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 18:03:13 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <359DDFC3.44039CD3 ihug.co.nz>
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 00:54:43 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Splarge Ohmori cell output
References: <199807031000_MC2-520A-7441 compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ZLTry1.0.qX6.FzNdr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20304
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is not anywhere near my area of expertise but can't you tell by running the
cell in a closed chamber perhaps with no room for vapor and just test the heat
output? Or maybe the pressure if you had the chamber expandable by doing work you
could measure the pressure energy and the heat?

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> To: Vortex
>
> Rick Monteverde worried that the water in an Ohmori cell might be evaporated
> faster because of violent mixing and frothing. I think this problem can be
> eliminated by using a tall vessel with a restricted outlet, say a plug with a
> small tube coming out of it. Before the run a pocket of air would be trapped
> in the top of the vessel. Most of the air would be driven out by water vapor,
> and the rest would be saturated. I think you will only see increased
> evaporation because of mixing if you allow replacement air reach the interface
> with the top of the water and the spray and froth. The tall vessel will help
> prevent that.
>
> However, we still have this issue of entrained unboiled droplettes leaving the
> cell, which was raised by the NHE with regard to the Pons and Fleischmann
> cell. It is a legitimate problem, although not in the case of P&F, who checked
> for it rigorously by measuring the lithium left in the cell after it boiled
> dry. In general, measuring the enthalpy of a boiling cell is tricky because of
> high temperatures, large unaccounted losses, phase changes and so on. I think
> a good way to circumvent these problems would be to condense the vapor in a
> closed, insulated container, by bubbling it through water. This is called
> "splarging" -- a wonderful word not found in most dictionaries.
>
> Here is how I would arrange it. Use a well-insulated electrolysis cell so that
> most of the heat is lost to vapor. Make it a tall vessel with a plug and a
> tube. Place a Dewar vessel next to the electrolysis cell, and fill it with 300
> ml of water at room temperature. It should have a top with a small orifice,
> about twice the diameter of the electrolysis outlet tube, or two orifices. The
> electrolysis outlet tube goes into the Dewar orifice, and under the water to
> the bottom of the Dewar. Effluent gas from boiling and electrolysis is forced
> through the tube and under the water. The vapor condenses but the free oxygen
> and hydrogen bubbles through, rises to the surface, and goes out the open
> orifice. Most of the heat from the vapor is captured, warming up the water in
> the Dewar. This experiment is quick. It can be run in ten minutes, so the
> water in the Dewar will not have time to lose significant heat, and a simple,
> straight line approximation of enthalpy can be computed based on the increase
> in water temperature: calories = grams of water times degrees C. Naturally,
> much heat will be lost with this method, but that does not matter as long as
> it shows excess energy and it verifies the energy calculation based on the
> mass of vaporized water. We do not care how inaccurate it is, as long as we
> can be sure all major errors make it an underestimation.
>
> The Dewar should be as close to the electrolysis cell as possible, and the
> tube from the electrolysis cell to the top of the Dewar should be insulated.
> The Dewar may require more than 300 ml of water. The less water you fill it
> with, the higher the temperature will rise, and the more sensitive the
> measurement will be. However, the Dewar water should be held under 50 deg C,
> or it will begin to lose heat rapidly. Input is ~45 watts (150 V * 0.3 A).
> Over 10 minutes this comes to 6,429 calories, so input power alone should
> raise the Dewar water temperature 21 degrees. This should be verified in a
> control run with a joule heater.
>
> It has been suggested here that this experiment should be run with a battery,
> instead of standard direct current laboratory power supplies. This would be a
> can of worms. Measuring the power from a battery should not be any more
> difficult than a DC power supply, but power will drop off over time which
> complicates the experiment, and the idea behind this is to circumvent the need
> for power measurements because in theory we know how much energy a battery can
> hold. In practice, nobody knows how much a battery holds, and nobody knows the
> optimum way to tap the energy to exhaustion. Various electrochemical tricks
> are used to extend battery life or speed up recharging. Most of these tricks
> involve varying the output or input power, pulsing it, reversing current
> briefly and so on. Sophisticated rapid commercial rechargers using these
> tricks have been patented. The Ohmori cell produces fluctuations, so people
> would say it is enhancing battery output and causing an usually deep drain. If
> the effect produced 30% excess, nobody -- least of all I -- would believe it
> on the basis of a battery test. If it produced 300% excess the battery would
> be unnecessary, because only an idiot would doubt that result measured with
> standard techniques. In every case, I strongly suggest that you *stick with
> the standard, convention, tried-and-true* methods. Use a power supply, a meter
> and a scope. Any complication and anything out of the ordinary like a battery
> will confuse the issue and add to the uncertainty and complexity of the
> experiment.
>
> - Jed



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  3 20:06:40 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA30420;
	Fri, 3 Jul 1998 20:03:12 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 20:03:12 -0700
Message-ID: <001d01bda6f7$d6f2a100$a6b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Discovery Online, Feuding Founding Fathers (http://www.discovery.com/area/histo
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 20:58:53 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01BDA6C5.8C4F0940"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"ApKIh1.0.CR7.ljPdr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20305
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BDA6C5.8C4F0940
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



http://www.discovery.com/area/history/feuding/feuding2.html

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BDA6C5.8C4F0940
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="Discovery Online, Feuding Founding Fathers.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Discovery Online, Feuding Founding Fathers.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.discovery.com/area/history/feuding/feuding2.html
Modified=404B188BF7A6BD0189

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BDA6C5.8C4F0940--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul  3 20:36:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16846;
	Fri, 3 Jul 1998 20:33:40 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 20:33:40 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <359DAEAD.7F236BBF microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 13:55:17 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson microtronics.com.au>
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: List FreeNrg <freenrg-l eskimo.com>
Subject: SMOT STATUS
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"kQCg52.0.574.HAQdr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20306
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi All,

Its now a new financial year in OZ.  Busy time for us computer
consultants.

The DMEC deal drags on.  I am getting a good education in business /
contract law.

All parties have finally agreed that the SMOT Mk5 design is OUTSIDE the
DMEC agreement.

I am finishing up the working drawings for home fabrication of the Mk5
with an easy to work with plastic rail design that will allow 4 units to
be linked for Rollarounds.  I have gone through 4 other rail design
ideas to get here.

Each Mk5 is guaranteed to do level Rollaways.  I get about 325mm (from
the ends of the mag arrays) average rollaways.

I will ship the backordered SMOT kits as 4 x Mk5 units in about 6 weeks.

One Mk5 unit will be shipped to each of the verifiers in about 4 weeks.

I you wish a refund, please email me directly with your bank account
details.

-- 
Best Regards,
 Greg Watson  http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  4 11:01:10 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27533;
	Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:58:06 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:58:06 -0700
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:58:03 -0700
X-Intended-For: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-Id: <199807041758.KAA13368 slave2.aa.net>
X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Test - Delete
Resent-Message-ID: <"YqiDl1.0.6k6.jqcdr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20307
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Test

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  4 12:33:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10337;
	Sat, 4 Jul 1998 12:27:53 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 12:27:53 -0700
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 08:36:23 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: SMOT STATUS
In-reply-to: <359DAEAD.7F236BBF microtronics.com.au>
X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <199807041536.IAA09323 smtp1.asu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"-jy_e2.0.KX2.u8edr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20308
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 01:55 PM 7/4/98 +0930, you wrote:
>Hi All,
>
> <***snip***>
>-- 
>Best Regards,
> Greg Watson 

Greg, how about answering the questions I posted a while back. In cased you
missed them here they are again:
-------------------------------------
Is there any version of any kind of SMOT, RMOG or whatever, that anyone has
running (like the Energizer Bunny, going, going, going ... )?

If not, what is the longest period of time any such device has run? How
many seconds/minutes/hours/days?
-------------------------------------

--Lynn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  4 14:10:33 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25256;
	Sat, 4 Jul 1998 14:04:19 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 14:04:19 -0700
Message-ID: <359E9791.B6BB3302 darknet.net>
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 16:58:57 -0400
From: Steve <darklord darknet.net>
Organization: DarkNet Online/Digital Fusion
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: KeelyNet-L lists.kz, Freenrg <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>,
        Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: new web page...gee...yay
References: <000001bda74b$4c388440$9d3261cb mrhohime>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"qKTET2.0.XA6.IZfdr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20309
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

> http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/adze/

Hey Matthew,

I added your link to DarkNet.. it's on the news page, as well as Quantum
Thunder..

anyway, why would people get scared away? heh.. it's a cool site. :)

ttyl
-Steve

p.s. while I'm updating my links page, anyone else have a page I can add?
(links page is at http://www.darknet.net/thunder/links/ )

thanks!
--
     darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616
   DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net
Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  4 17:17:16 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18165;
	Sat, 4 Jul 1998 17:12:29 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 17:12:29 -0700
Message-Id: <199807050009.UAA26669 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Heli Joke
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 98 20:12:12 -0000
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"9FHNz.0.iR4.iJidr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20310
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>>WHERE AM I?
>>>* Submitted by R. Paxon
>>>              ------------------------------------
>>>A helicopter was flying around above Seattle yesterday when
>>>an electrical malfunction disabled all of the aircraft's electronic
>>>navigation and communication equipment. Due to the clouds and haze
>>>the pilot could not determine his position or course to steer to
>>>the airport. The pilot saw a tall building, flew toward it, circled,
>>>drew a handwritten sign and held it in the helicopter's window. T
>>>he sign said "WHERE AM I ?" in large letters.
>>>
>>>People in the tall building quickly responded to the aircraft,
>>>drew a large sign and held it in a building window. Their sign said,
>>>"YOU ARE IN A HELICOPTER.' The pilot smiled, waved, looked at his
>>>map and determine the course to steer to SEATAC
>>>(Seattle/Tacoma) airport and landed safely.
>>>
>>>After they were on the ground, the co-pilot asked the pilot how
>>>the "YOU ARE IN A HELICOPTER" sign helped determine their
>>>position. The pilot responded, "I knew that had to be the
>>>MICROSOFT building because they gave me a technically correct
>>>but completely useless answer."
>>>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  5 04:33:46 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA28956;
	Sun, 5 Jul 1998 04:31:21 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 04:31:21 -0700
Message-ID: <002301bda808$84ffc000$fc6c18d2 mpowers8>
From: "mpowers consultants" <mpowers8 pacific.net.sg>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: TEST (Re: Heli Joke)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 19:31:55 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"_VYKJ3.0.M47.8Gsdr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20311
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: E.F. Mallove <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: VORTEX <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, 1998 July 05 08:16
Subject: Heli Joke


>>>WHERE AM I?
>>>>* Submitted by R. Paxon
>>>>              ------------------------------------
>>>>A helicopter was flying around above Seattle yesterday when
>>>>an electrical malfunction disabled all of the aircraft's electronic
>>>>navigation and communication equipment. Due to the clouds and haze
>>>>the pilot could not determine his position or course to steer to
>>>>the airport. The pilot saw a tall building, flew toward it, circled,
>>>>drew a handwritten sign and held it in the helicopter's window. T
>>>>he sign said "WHERE AM I ?" in large letters.
>>>>
>>>>People in the tall building quickly responded to the aircraft,
>>>>drew a large sign and held it in a building window. Their sign said,
>>>>"YOU ARE IN A HELICOPTER.' The pilot smiled, waved, looked at his
>>>>map and determine the course to steer to SEATAC
>>>>(Seattle/Tacoma) airport and landed safely.
>>>>
>>>>After they were on the ground, the co-pilot asked the pilot how
>>>>the "YOU ARE IN A HELICOPTER" sign helped determine their
>>>>position. The pilot responded, "I knew that had to be the
>>>>MICROSOFT building because they gave me a technically correct
>>>>but completely useless answer."
>>>>

Your pilot has successfully achieved liftoff
when on the screen he finds the dreaded
little box with the tickoff square:
This program has performed an illegal operation...



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  5 09:37:52 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10406;
	Sun, 5 Jul 1998 09:36:38 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 09:36:38 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <004f01bda832$201944c0$1df218d2 mpowers8>
From: "mpowers consultants" <mpowers8 pacific.net.sg>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: magnetic lead
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 00:29:45 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"De3x42.0.VY2.Kkwdr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20312
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Has anyone got the figure on
magnetic susceptibility
of oxides of lead ?

cheers


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  5 10:05:08 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14576;
	Sun, 5 Jul 1998 10:04:06 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 10:04:06 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980705125649.00c02074 popd.ix.netcom.com>
X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 12:56:49 +0000
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, tesla@pupman.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Magnet Wire General Engineering Data
Resent-Message-ID: <"XXHFg.0.fZ3.38xdr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20313
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I just came across this site. You can down load the pdf manual at:

http://www.cable.alcatel.com/magnet/geneng.html


Dennis

Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  5 11:38:57 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14756;
	Sun, 5 Jul 1998 11:34:31 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 11:34:31 -0700
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 06:17:25 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" <jdo acs.ucalgary.ca>
To: Freenrg <freenrg-l eskimo.com>
Cc: KeelyNet-L lists.kz, Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: "Magnetic Rotating Apparatus" O/U
In-Reply-To: <359E9791.B6BB3302 darknet.net>
Message-Id: <Pine.A41.3.96.980705061616.27556A-100000 acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"3b0Zb2.0.Pc3.sSydr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20314
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Is anyone going to see the demonstration of inventor Kohei Minato's
"overunity/F/E/zero point energy" generating device in Mexico City on
July 8,9 or 10? Please contact me off-list since I am not a member of this
listserver. Thanks for considering my request. Jorg Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  5 19:07:52 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29741;
	Sun, 5 Jul 1998 19:04:51 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 19:04:51 -0700
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 19:58:03 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" <jdo acs.ucalgary.ca>
To: leoguitar vossnet.de
Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com, KeelyNet-L@lists.kz, Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>,
        newman-list <newman-l emachine.com>
Subject: Re: "Magnetic Rotating Apparatus" O/U
In-Reply-To: <359FC8D9.42CBCB64 harti.com>
Message-Id: <Pine.A41.3.96.980705195443.78116D-100000 acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"Oja1q.0.dG7.233er" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20315
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Stefan: Please see note I sent to Scott Little attached.
____________________________________________________________________
"I am awaiting confirmation for a local person (Mexico City) to
attend their 4:00-5:30PM demonstration on Friday July 10. If you are
interested, I will keep you posted of salient events." Jorg Ostrowski
_____________________________________________________________________
On Sun, 5 Jul 1998, Stefan Hartmann wrote:
> 
> Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote:
> 
> > Is anyone going to see the demonstration of inventor Kohei Minato's
> > "overunity/F/E/zero point energy" generating device in Mexico City on
> > July 8,9 or 10?  Thanks for considering my request. Jorg Ostrowski
> 
> Yes, if anybody will attend there or has relatives living in Mexico City it
> would be extremely helpful if they would attend to have a live first hand
> report !
> 
> Please let us know.
> Thanks !
> 
> Regards, Stefan.
> 
> 
> --
> Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
> Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
> Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
> email: harti harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
> Use our automatic creditcard billing at: http://ccard.net
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  5 19:24:18 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25927;
	Sun, 5 Jul 1998 19:23:14 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 19:23:14 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <000501bda883$88cc1460$158f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>, <rl_brodzinski@pnl.gov>
Subject: LENR, Miley-Ohmori, Massive Neutrons-WIMPS?
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:11:35 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"gof_o3.0.1L6.HK3er" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20316
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

The Aneutronic Low Energy Nuclear Reactions,LENR might be possible if
reactions occur in the following manner:

For 74 Tungsten 184  there are 5A - 2Z "quarks"
in the nucleus = 920 - 74 = 846

2A "up" or +

2A - Z "down" or -

A - Z neutrinos  (plus 74 external electrons)

If a Quasi-Neutron formed by a collision of
an electron and proton with internal formation
of a neutrino-antineutrino pair,(5A - 2Z + an
extra neutrino = 6 quarks) is absorbed by the Tungsten, this composite
entity could
"forget" the lineup of the "Quarks" and emit
lighter elements such as 26 Fe 56 etc., and
neutral "Clusters" or Weakly Interacting Massive Particles, ie., WIMPS and a
neutrino
sans single neutrons or gammas.

No matter how you slice it,the lineup gives
clusters of positive quarks and groups of quarks that could split off as a
heavy neutral
cluster.

Might it be as easy to find WIMPS as it is to find neutrinos?  :-)

Regards,    Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 04:52:50 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA13105;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 04:51:41 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 04:51:41 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980706064517.007b4480 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 06:45:17 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: O&M calorimetry
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"tytNX.0.hC3.BfBer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20317
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Thanks to Aki, I have been able to examine the Ohmori & Mizuno paper on the
incandescent cathode experiment.

I am concerned about possible errors in their calorimetry.  I have observed
numerous occasions when a single-point temperature measurement in an
electrolytic cell was an exceedingly unreliable indicator of the cell's
heat power.  I have also observed very significant differences between the
"cell constant" (temperature rise per watt of input power) for electrolysis
power and that for calibration resistor power...so much so that I have
privately renamed that quantity the "cell variable".

Seeking some absolute indication of o-u behavior in the O&M experiment, I
calculated the expected temperature rise for a perfectly isolated cell
containing 120 ml of water (in a massless vessel) receiving 112 watts of
input power and obtained 0.22 C/sec...substantially higher than the 0.15
C/sec they report for their purportedly o-u experiment!

In fact, it would only take about 75 watts to cause a 0.15 C/sec rise in an
isolated cell.  This makes the observed temperature rise in their active
cell look pretty normal...112 watts input, 20-30 watts lost thru the cell
walls, and 80-90 watts left to heat the water+vessel.

But the cell's not full of water....it's 0.5M Na2SO4, for example.  In our
efforts to replicate (apologies, Jed) Patterson's bead cell we measured the
heat capacity of 0.5M Li2SO4 and found it nearly identical with that of
pure water on a _volume_ basis.  In other words, the salt increases the
density just about as much as it decreases the specific heat.  So it is at
least possible that their 120 ml of electrolyte has a heat capacity very
similar to that of 120 ml of water.

Why is the temperature rise they observed with the NiCr heater so low (just
over 1/4 of the expected amount)?  There are several possibilities but,
since O&M provide no details of their actual procedure, we cannot speculate.

I urge Gene and Mark Hugo to work through similar calculations on their O&M
experiments.  Measure (or find in tables somewhere) the heat capacity of
the electrolyte.  Calculate the heat capacity of the vessel.  Then measure
the heat losses thru the walls of the cell by turning off the electrical
input power and  observing the rate at which the temperature declines.  

With all these numbers tied down, if the active experiment is _not_ heating
the  cell faster than one would expect, then the real anomaly is the
behavior of the NiCr calibration heater.




Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 07:37:14 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29527;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 07:35:20 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 07:35:20 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:23:58 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: O&M calorimetry
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807061027_MC2-5249-145F compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"2NnLu3.0.7D7.V2Eer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20318
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Scott Little writes:

     I have observed numerous occasions when a single-point temperature
     measurement in an electrolytic cell was an exceedingly unreliable
     indicator of the cell's heat power.

An unreliable temperature measurement means the experiment is poorly designed.
It should be fixed. This might be caused by:

1. Incorrect geometry; the wrong cell shape, or the temperature sensor too
close to the heat source.

2. Insufficient mixing.

3. Power levels too low or too high for the cell design.

4. Boiling, bubbles, heat lost from the lid or some other nonlinear process
dominating the heat loss, instead of heat losses through the cell walls. A
single point temperature sensor is inadequate for experiments close to boiling
(which these are). It will lead to underestimates, especially when the joule
heater is big and it heats the water more or less uniformly, but the W cathode
is small and it causes a small, intense flow of vapor.


     Seeking some absolute indication of o-u behavior in the O&M experiment,
     I calculated the expected temperature rise for a perfectly isolated cell
     containing 120 ml of water (in a massless vessel) receiving 112 watts of
     input power and obtained 0.22 C/sec...substantially higher than the 0.15
     C/sec they report for their purportedly o-u experiment!

0.22 C/sec is correct. There is no absolute indication of o-u in the original
O&M experiment. However, there is in Mallove and Wall's recent replication:
the mass of vaporized fluid. This does not depend upon calibration or a
comparison to a null run. This result, however, is preliminary. Many potential
problems, like entrained fluid, must be checked before this result can be
considered anything more than a preliminary indication.


     Why is the temperature rise they observed with the NiCr heater so low
     (just over 1/4 of the expected amount)?  There are several possibilities
     but, since O&M provide no details of their actual procedure, we cannot
     speculate.

They provided many details during discussions at ICCF7, and they can be
reached via e-mail, so we do not need to speculate. We can frame the questions
carefully and ask, or do an independent replication and find out directly. For
example, they said that during the calibration with the heater, they pumped
gas through the cell to simulate the mixing from electrolysis. This might
lower the temperature, which might explain the difference to some extent.


     I urge Gene and Mark Hugo to work through similar calculations on their
     O&M experiments.  Measure (or find in tables somewhere) the heat
     capacity of the electrolyte.

They have been doing that. However, the question can be sidestepped by
assuming that the phase change heat capacity is the same as water, because
only the water boils off. Additional energy is required to bring the sodium
out of solution, but we'll ignore that.


     Calculate the heat capacity of the vessel.  Then measure the heat losses
     thru the walls of the cell by turning off the electrical input power and 
     observing the rate at which the temperature declines.

That is a good idea, but it gets a little tricky at temperatures close to 100
deg C. The other problem is that the temperature of the electrolyte as a whole
does not rise to 100 deg C, because boiling is local and the hot vapor escapes
directly.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 08:01:08 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03351;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 07:56:44 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 07:56:44 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <004f01bda8ec$c9786220$158f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Electronic Ballast Light Bulbs (New Toys)?
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:45:14 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"pJQv71.0.Gq.gMEer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20319
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

The electronic ballast fluorescent light bulbs
available at the store with power input from
about 3 watts to 35 watts and light output
from 20 watts to 150 watts that can replace standard light bulbs for $6.00
to $18.00 might make for some interesting experiments.

I think Vince Cockeram's potassium-hydrogen
experiments could get interesting using one of these modified some.

I don't have the pulse frequency pinned down, but I suppose it's in
allocated FCC bands of 30 kilohertz or so.

I bought two G.E. 100 watt(light) that draw 28 watts and one 75 watt (light)
that draws 18 watts and a 20 watt (light) that draws less than 3 watts.

Does that mean that these are all O/U?   :-)

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 08:36:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01043;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:33:20 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:33:20 -0700
Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CC1 xch-cpc-02>
From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: (off topic)+Re: Boiled Lightning
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:32:58 -0700
X-Priority: 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"sido7.0.xF._uEer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20320
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frank
	Try and contact John Wayland, and ask him about his Heavy Metal
Garden Tractor. his URL: dat1200 EUROPA.COM. He built just what you
want, I think.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Francis J. Stenger[SMTP:fstenger interlaced.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, July 02, 1998 7:53 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	(off topic)+Re: Boiled Lightning
> 
> Scudder, Henry J wrote:
> 
> (snip more good stuff on the "battery meter")
> 
> Thanks, Hank.
> In case other Vortexians are interested, do you know of a good source
> of used (i.e., cheap) small DC traction motors?  I'm thinking 1 HP or
> so for an electric "off road" transporter for one person - maybe 24 or
> 36 volts?  I think "Unique Mobility" is it? - may sell such things for
> big bucks but I have an old lawn tractor that might work well as a
> base
> vehicle.  Maybe you can go off-list if no one else is interested.
> (PS: I need hill climbing ability - thus the gearing on the lawn
> trac.)
> Thanks,
> 
> Frank Stenger
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 08:54:48 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA12936;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:47:51 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:47:51 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A0F181.66035274 crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 17:47:14 +0200
From: "Jean - Paul Bibérian" <biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Ohmori's experiment in Grenoble: light, no heat!
References: <199807021551.IAA07513 pop4.ucdavis.edu> <359BB84D.661347F5@css.mot.com> <359BDD3B.E5B@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"G2mcs3.0.-93.b6Fer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20321
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dear Vorts,

          We have tried a replication of Ohmori's experiment at our lab in
Grenoble. We have performed two experiments in a Pons and Fleischmann type
cell, with a platinum anode wrapped around a cathode, first a 2mm diameter
by 12 mm long platinum cathode, then a tungsten cathode 1 mm diameter and 25
mm long.  we used K2CO3, 0.5 molar.

          At low temperature the conductivity is high with 10 volts and 5
amp. After 10 minutes, the voltage increased to 160 Volts, and the current
dropped to 0.6 A, later it went up to about 1.2 Amps. A bright discharge was
permanantly there with regular bursts of light, noise and current intensity.

         We stopped the experiment after 10 minutes, but a crude calculation
of the amount of heat necessary to evaporate the 35 cc of electrolyte gave
no excess heat.

        Interestingly, the tungsten cathode was etched, and had a clean
shinning surface, whereas the platinum cathode of the first run looked
rough.

        The platinum anode of the tungsten experiment melted at four
different places, we believe in sequence, first at the bottom, then near the
top.

        We have analysed by X rays fluorescence the two cathodes, but have
not observed any new element within the sensitivity of this type of
instrument, i.e. about 1%.

        We are open to comments.

Jean-Paul Biberian






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 09:16:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16215;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 09:11:22 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 09:11:22 -0700
Message-ID: <008601bda8f8$42a35c80$158f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Ohmori's experiment in Grenoble: light, no heat!
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:07:25 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"3vchv3.0.Cz3.fSFer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20322
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jean-Paul wrote:

>We stopped the experiment after 10 minutes,
>but a crude calculation of the amount of
>heat necessary to evaporate the 35 cc of
>electrolyte gave no excess heat.

Are you trapping the light, Jean-Paul?

The visible non-absorbed photons (1.77 to 3.0 ev) might be carrying off the
energy you are looking for?

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 10:27:03 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09277;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:17:49 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:17:49 -0700
Message-ID: <00a701bda901$8836dc00$158f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <llano5 earthlink.net>
Subject: Wimps
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 11:13:40 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A4_01BDA8CF.218E1C20"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"2hr09.0.qG2.yQGer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20323
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00A4_01BDA8CF.218E1C20
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Item from my Britannica CD on WIMPs

------=_NextPart_000_00A4_01BDA8CF.218E1C20
Content-Type: text/html;
	name="WIMPs.htm"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="WIMPs.htm"

<FORM METHOD=3DGET ACTION=3D"eb://cgi-bin/g?"><a =
href=3Deb.htm><b><i>Britannica CD</i></b></a> <INPUT NAME=3D"keywords" =
size=3D33 VALUE=3D""> <inPUT TYPE=3D"submit" VALUE=3D"Search"> <select =
name=3D"DBase"><option>Index<option =
selected>Articles<option>Dictionary</select><input type=3Dhidden =
name=3Dhits value=3D"10 articles"><input type=3Dhidden name=3Dcontext =
value=3D"all articles"><input type=3Dhidden name=3Dindexremove =
value=3D""> <a =
href=3Deb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dhelp/help.htm>Help</a></FORM>





<TITLE>The Cosmos: Components of the universe: OTHER COMPONENTS: Dark =
matter.</TITLE>
<a href=3Deb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dmacro/5001/54/35.html& ><img =
src=3Dfile:///C:\EB\GIFS/contfrom.jpg  alt=3D"... continued =
from"></a><br>
<H1>The Cosmos</H1>
<a href=3Deb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dmacro/5001/54/toc.html& ><img =
src=3Dfile:///C:\EB\GIFS/contents.jpg  alt=3D"Table of =
Contents"></a><br>
<a name=3D0041> </a> <H4>Dark matter.</H4>

Numerous <a name=3D3RWWX =
href=3D"eb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dindex/da/rk_/7.html& #3RWWX">        =20
</a>candidates for the dark matter component in=20
the halos of galaxies and clusters of galaxies have been proposed=20
over the years, but no successful detection of any of them has=20
yet occurred. If the dark matter is not made of the same material=20
as the nuclei of ordinary atoms, then it may consist of exotic=20
particles capable of interacting with ordinary matter only through=20
the gravitational and weak nuclear forces. The latter property=20
lends these hypothetical particles the generic name <a =
name=3D"first_hit"><B>WIMPs</B></a>, after=20
<a name=3D3RWX2>
</a>weakly interacting massive particles. Even=20
if <B>WIMPs </B> bombarded each square centimetre of the Earth at a=20
rate of one per second (as they would do if they had, for example,=20
individually 100 times the mass of a proton and collectively=20
enough mass to "close" the universe; see below), they would=20
then still be extremely difficult--though not impossible--to=20
detect experimentally.<P>
 Another possibility is that the dark matter is (or was) composed=20
of ordinary matter at a microscopic level but is essentially=20
nonluminous at a meaningful astronomical level. Examples would=20
be brown dwarfs (starlike objects too low in mass to fuse hydrogen=20
in their interiors), dead white dwarfs, neutron stars, and black=20
holes. If the objects are only extremely faint (<I>e.g.,</I>=20
brown dwarfs), they can eventually be found by very sensitive=20
searches, perhaps at near-infrared wavelengths. On the other=20
hand, if they emit no light at all, then other strategies will=20
be needed to find them--for example, to search halo stars for=20
evidence of "microlensing" (<I>i.e.,</I> the temporary amplification=20
of the brightness of background sources through the gravitational=20
bending of their light rays).<P>

<a href=3Deb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dmacro/5001/54/37.html& ><img =
src=3Dfile:///C:\EB\GIFS/contto.jpg  alt=3D"continued ...  "></a>
<hr><h6>Copyright (c) 1995 Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc. All Rights =
Reserved</h6>
<P>
<img align=3Dcenter src=3Dcheck.jpg> <a =
href=3Deb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dmacro/5001/54/36.html&hits=3D10%20articles&=
context=3Dall%20articles&bold=3Don&sw=3Dwimp&indexremove=3Doff&>Show</a> =
Index links.
------=_NextPart_000_00A4_01BDA8CF.218E1C20--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 10:37:41 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12711;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:33:09 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:33:09 -0700
From: Puthoff aol.com
Message-ID: <a3d8ebeb.35a10a10 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:31:58 EDT
To: fjsparb sprintmail.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: gsparb juno.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re:  Electronic Ballast Light Bulbs (New Toys)?
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78
Resent-Message-ID: <"mLtIs2.0.Q63.KfGer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20324
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 7/6/98 8:57:52 AM, fjsparb sprintmail.com wrote:

<<power input from

about 3 watts to 35 watts and light output

from 20 watts to 150 watts >>

If true, o/u!  Doubt it wouldn't have been noticed before in such a commercial
device  They probably mean that fluorescent light output is *equivalent* to
what you get in a high-wattage 150-watt incandescent bulb, which might be only
~35 watts light output, therefore o/u ~ 1.

Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 10:47:20 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16178;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:41:11 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:41:11 -0700
Message-ID: <00c501bda904$cb01d460$158f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <Puthoff aol.com>, "Vortex-l" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>, <llano5@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Electronic Ballast Light Bulbs (New Toys)?
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 11:37:40 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"kZsnY2.0.Qy3.rmGer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20325
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Puthoff aol.com <Puthoff@aol.com>
To: fjsparb sprintmail.com <fjsparb@sprintmail.com>; vortex-l@eskimo.com
<vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: gsparb juno.com <gsparb@juno.com>
Date: Monday, July 06, 1998 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: Electronic Ballast Light Bulbs (New Toys)?

Only o-u for the eye, Hal?  Thus I.O.U?   :-)

Regards   Frederick


>
>In a message dated 7/6/98 8:57:52 AM, fjsparb sprintmail.com wrote:
>
><<power input from
>
>about 3 watts to 35 watts and light output
>
>from 20 watts to 150 watts >>
>
>If true, o/u!  Doubt it wouldn't have been noticed before in such a
commercial
>device  They probably mean that fluorescent light output is *equivalent* to
>what you get in a high-wattage 150-watt incandescent bulb, which might be
only
>~35 watts light output, therefore o/u ~ 1.
>
>Hal Puthoff
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 12:41:53 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA04762;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:30:47 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:30:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Electronic Ballast Light Bulbs (New Toys)?
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:29:11 -0400
Message-ID: <01bda914$5a846cb0$9b6cd626 george.varisys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"R2Old1.0.JA1.ZNIer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20326
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Frederick Sparber wrote:
>I think Vince Cockeram's potassium-hydrogen
>experiments could get interesting using one of these modified some.
>
It could possibly simplify and minaturize the power supply. These
lamps run much cooler than Vince's experiment however, Hg has
appropriate vapor pressures at over 200C lower temperature than K.
>
>I bought two G.E. 100 watt(light) that draw 28 watts and one 75 watt (light)
>that draws 18 watts and a 20 watt (light) that draws less than 3 watts.
>
>Does that mean that these are all O/U?   :-)
This is of course a comparison of photometric efficiency measured
in lumens per watt. What it means is that incandescent lamps are a
really poor match for the human visual system (too much IR).
Working from memory, here are some typical numbers.
-
100% radiometric efficiency in green -> 700 lumens/watt
cool white standard fluorescent-------> 200 lumens/watt
incandescent lamps--------------------> 35  lumens/watt
color CRT----------------------------->  6  lumens/watt
plasma displays----------------------->  1  lumen/watt
-
I've been using many of the compact fluorescent lamps for
several years now, my only problem has been that they
tend to create significant EM noise.
-
George Holz      george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems
                            

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 12:44:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27587;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:38:13 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:38:13 -0700
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:33:55 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Computer haiku
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807061537_MC2-524C-3288 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"3BX-o3.0.rk6.aUIer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20328
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

This has been making the e-mail rounds. I love it! - JR

Haiku is fun.
Imagine if instead of cryptic, geeky text strings, your
computer produced error messages in Haiku
---------------------------------------------------------------
A file that big?
It might be very useful.
But now it is gone.
---------------------------------------------------------------
With searching comes loss
and the presence of absence:
"My Report" not found.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Three things are certain:
Death, taxes, and lost data.
Guess which has occurred.
---------------------------------------------------------------
You step in the stream,
but the water has moved on.
This page is not here.
---------------------------------------------------------------
The Web site you seek
cannot be located but
endless others exist.
---------------------------------------------------------------
The Tao that is seen
Is not the true Tao, until
You bring fresh toner.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Stay the patient course
Of little worth is your ire
The network is down.
---------------------------------------------------------------
 Yesterday it worked
Today it is not working
Windows is like that
---------------------------------------------------------------
A crash reduces
your expensive computer
to a simple stone.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Windows NT crashed.
I am the Blue Screen of Death.
No one hears your screams.
---------------------------------------------------------------
ABORTED effort:
Close all that you have.
You ask way too much.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Chaos reigns within.
Reflect, repent, and reboot.
Order shall return.
---------------------------------------------------------------
First snow, then silence.
This thousand dollar screen dies
so beautifully.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Out of memory.
We wish to hold the whole sky,
But we never will.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Serious error.
All shortcuts have disappeared.
Screen. Mind. Both are blank.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 12:44:46 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27560;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:38:11 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:38:11 -0700
Message-ID: <35A1293F.6B5CF691 crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 21:45:04 +0200
From: "Jean - Paul Bibérian" <biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Ohmori's experiment in Grenoble: light, no heat!
References: <008601bda8f8$42a35c80$158f85ce default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ANBKR2.0.Vk6.YUIer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20327
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> Jean-Paul wrote:
>
> >We stopped the experiment after 10 minutes,
> >but a crude calculation of the amount of
> >heat necessary to evaporate the 35 cc of
> >electrolyte gave no excess heat.
>
> Are you trapping the light, Jean-Paul?
>
> The visible non-absorbed photons (1.77 to 3.0 ev) might be carrying off the
> energy you are looking for?
>
> Regards,   Frederick

We thought about it, but have no way at this point to evaluate that amount of
heat.

Does anyone knows how much energy is dissipated in a given fluorescent tube? We
are relatively close to that situation. We ran the experiment at day time, so
it is harder to feel the intensity of the light emitted during the discharge.

May be next time, we should do it at night!

Jean-Paul Biberian

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 13:07:58 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03631;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:02:24 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:02:24 -0700
Message-ID: <000101bda918$87638f00$d1b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Ohmori's experiment in Grenoble: light, no heat!
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:58:53 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"1Jq1c3.0.fu.FrIer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20329
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jean-Paul wrote:
>
>May be next time we should do it at night!
>
Wouldn't it be easier to silver (or blacken)the outside of the cell to keep
the light-heat in?

Regards,   Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 13:45:33 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13116;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:39:52 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:39:52 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:30:23 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <199807062030.PAA01486 dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>
From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki)
Subject: Re: Ohmori's experiment in Grenoble: light, no heat!
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
To: biberian crmc2.univ.mrs.fr
Resent-Message-ID: <"H-O4I2.0.qC3.LOJer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20330
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July 6 1998

Jean-Paul,

I do not know if you did but I have fowarded your posting here on the 
Vortex to Ohmori & Mizuno. Since they're the authors reporting on their 
experiments, your details on findings should be compared with their 
setups for resolution of differences whatever that may be.

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 14:38:33 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01660;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:34:58 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:34:58 -0700
Message-ID: <35A14490.5F201D7D crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 23:41:36 +0200
From: "Jean - Paul Bibérian" <biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Ohmori's experiment in Grenoble: light, no heat!
References: <199807062030.PAA01486 dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ZsRFf1.0.YP.0CKer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20331
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Akira Kawasaki wrote:

> July 6 1998
>
> Jean-Paul,
>
> I do not know if you did but I have fowarded your posting here on the
> Vortex to Ohmori & Mizuno. Since they're the authors reporting on their
> experiments, your details on findings should be compared with their
> setups for resolution of differences whatever that may be.
>
> -AK-

 Thank you, I am eager to know what are the differences between our work
and their's.

J.P.B.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 14:39:33 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02096;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:36:16 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:36:16 -0700
Message-ID: <35A144E4.1F85EDBD crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 23:43:00 +0200
From: "Jean - Paul Bibérian" <biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Ohmori's experiment in Grenoble: light, no heat!
References: <000101bda918$87638f00$d1b4bfa8 default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"GBYjj.0.XW.EDKer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20332
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> Jean-Paul wrote:
> >
> >May be next time we should do it at night!
> >
> Wouldn't it be easier to silver (or blacken)the outside of the cell to keep
> the light-heat in?
>
> Regards,   Frederick

 Right, but I believe Ohmori might have encountered the same effect, unless his
vessel was not glass.


JPB

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 15:42:47 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23573;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:36:45 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:36:45 -0700
Message-ID: <002a01bda92e$1228dea0$d1b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <llano5 earthlink.net>
Subject: wimps (http://www.wnet.org/hawking/strange/html/strange_wimps.html)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:30:10 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01BDA8FB.58AC81C0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"P3l-C.0.ol5.w5Ler" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20333
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BDA8FB.58AC81C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  =20
             WIMPS
             =20
 =20
                         =20
                        =20
                                Dark Matter
                               =20
                                =20
                                =20
                        =20
                         =20
                         MACHOs

                                Hot and Cold Dark Matter

                                Carlos Frenk:
                                Closing in on the Missing Matter
                               =20
                               =20
                                =20
                                =20
                        =20
                        =20
               =20
                         Short for Weakly Interacting Massive Particles, =
the ghostly WIMPs are predicted by theory but have so far eluded =
detection. With odd names like photino and masses of perhaps 10 to 100 =
times that of the proton, WIMPs could account for lots of dark matter =
if, as some theories predict, they are common in the universe. =
Cosmologists like cold-dark-matter WIMPs because they would be =
relatively heavy and thus move much slower than the speed of light. If =
so, they could have been the gravitational =93seeds=94 around which =
regular matter congregated to form galaxies yet, because they don't =
interact with radiation, not affect the observed smoothness of the =
cosmic background radiation.

                       =20

                         =20
            =20
   =20
             [Home] [Strange Stuff Explained]
             =20
            =20
             [PBS Online]   [wNetStation]
             =20
            =20


------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BDA8FB.58AC81C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1=20
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>wimps</TITLE><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://www.wnet.org/hawking/strange/html/strange_wimps.html><!DOCT=
YPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR ?><BASE =
target=3D_parent>
</HEAD>
<BODY background=3D../assets/images/back-stuff.gif bgColor=3D#ffffff =
link=3D#0000ff=20
onload=3D"if((navigator.appName=3D=3D'Netscape') && =
(navigator.appVersion.charAt(0)=3D=3D'3') && =
(navigator.appVersion.indexOf('Win')+navigator.appVersion.indexOf('Mac')!=
=3D-2)) document.bgColor=3Ddocument.bgColor;"=20
text=3D#000000 vLink=3D#800080>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<TABLE border=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 width=3D489>
    <TBODY>
    <TR align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop>
        <TD height=3D13 width=3D24><IMG border=3D0 height=3D1=20
            src=3D"../assets/images/dot_clear.gif" width=3D24></TD>
        <TD width=3D267><IMG border=3D0 height=3D1=20
            src=3D"../assets/images/dot_clear.gif" width=3D267></TD>
        <TD width=3D198><IMG border=3D0 height=3D1=20
            src=3D"../assets/images/dot_clear.gif" =
width=3D198></TD></TR>
    <TR align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop>
        <TD></TD>
        <TD width=3D267>
            <P><B><FONT face=3DArial,Helvetica =
size=3D+1>WIMPS</B></FONT></P></TD>
        <TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE border=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 width=3D489>
    <TBODY>
    <TR align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop>
        <TD>
            <TABLE border=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 =
width=3D143>
                <TBODY>
                <TR align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop>
                    <TD height=3D13 width=3D22><IMG border=3D0 =
height=3D1=20
                        src=3D"../assets/images/dot_clear.gif" =
width=3D22></TD>
                    <TD width=3D121><IMG border=3D0 height=3D1=20
                        src=3D"../assets/images/dot_clear.gif" =
width=3D121></TD></TR>
                <TR align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop>
                    <TD height=3D19></TD>
                    <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D121><IMG=20
                        alt=3D"Learn more about:" border=3D0 height=3D19 =

                        src=3D"../assets/images/stuf-learn.gif" =
width=3D121></TD></TR>
                <TR align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop>
                    <TD></TD>
                    <TD bgColor=3D#ffcc99 width=3D121>
                        <TABLE border=3D0 cellPadding=3D4 =
cellSpacing=3D0=20
                            width=3D121><TBODY>
                            <TR>
                                <TD>
                                <P><BR><A =
href=3D"../html/strange_dark.html"=20
                                target=3Dstrange><FONT =
face=3DArial,Helvetica=20
                                size=3D-1>Dark Matter</FONT></A><FONT=20
                                face=3DArial,Helvetica=20
                                =
size=3D-1><BR><BR></FONT>&nbsp;</P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR>
                <TR align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop>
                    <TD height=3D19></TD>
                    <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D121><IMG=20
                        alt=3D"Related Topics:" border=3D0 height=3D19=20
                        src=3D"../assets/images/stuf-related.gif" =
width=3D121></TD></TR>
                <TR align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop>
                    <TD></TD>
                    <TD bgColor=3D#ffcc99 width=3D121>
                        <TABLE border=3D0 cellPadding=3D4 =
cellSpacing=3D0=20
                            width=3D121><TBODY>
                            <TR>
                                <TD>
                                <P><A =
href=3D"../html/strange_machos.html"=20
                                target=3Dstrange><FONT =
face=3DArial,Helvetica=20
                                size=3D-1>MACHOs</FONT></A><FONT=20
                                face=3DArial,Helvetica =
size=3D-1></FONT></P>
                                <P><A =
href=3D"../html/strange_hotcold.html"=20
                                target=3Dstrange><FONT =
face=3DArial,Helvetica=20
                                size=3D-1>Hot and Cold Dark =
Matter</FONT></A><FONT=20
                                face=3DArial,Helvetica =
size=3D-1></FONT></P>
                                <P><A=20
                                =
href=3D"/hawking/mysteries/html/frenk-1.html"><FONT=20
                                face=3DArial,Helvetica size=3D-1>Carlos=20
                                Frenk:<BR>Closing in on the Missing=20
                                Matter<BR></FONT></A><FONT =
face=3DArial,Helvetica=20
                                =
size=3D-1><BR><BR></FONT>&nbsp;</P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR>
                <TR align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop>
                    <TD colSpan=3D2 =
height=3D5></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD>
        <TD>
            <TABLE border=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 =
width=3D346>
                <TBODY>
                <TR align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop>
                    <TD height=3D12 width=3D21><IMG border=3D0 =
height=3D1=20
                        src=3D"../assets/images/dot_clear.gif" =
width=3D21></TD>
                    <TD width=3D284><IMG border=3D0 height=3D1=20
                        src=3D"../assets/images/dot_clear.gif" =
width=3D284></TD>
                    <TD width=3D41><IMG border=3D0 height=3D1=20
                        src=3D"../assets/images/dot_clear.gif" =
width=3D41></TD></TR>
                <TR align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop>
                    <TD></TD>
                    <TD width=3D284>
                        <P><B><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman,Times,Times =
NewRoman"=20
                        size=3D+1>S</FONT><FONT=20
                        face=3D"Times New Roman,Times,Times =
NewRoman"></FONT></B><FONT=20
                        face=3D"Times New Roman,Times,Times =
NewRoman">hort for=20
                        Weakly Interacting Massive Particles, the =
ghostly WIMPs=20
                        are predicted by theory but have so far eluded=20
                        detection. With odd names like photino and =
masses of=20
                        perhaps 10 to 100 times that of the proton, =
WIMPs could=20
                        account for lots of dark matter if, as some =
theories=20
                        predict, they are common in the universe. =
Cosmologists=20
                        like cold-dark-matter WIMPs because they would =
be=20
                        relatively heavy and thus move much slower than =
the=20
                        speed of light. If so, they could have been the=20
                        gravitational &ldquo;seeds&rdquo; around which =
regular=20
                        matter congregated to form galaxies yet, because =
they=20
                        don't interact with radiation, not affect the =
observed=20
                        smoothness of the cosmic background=20
radiation.</FONT></P>
                        <P><BR></P></TD>
                    =
<TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE border=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 width=3D489>
    <TBODY>
    <TR align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop>
        <TD height=3D41 width=3D23><IMG border=3D0 height=3D1=20
            src=3D"../assets/images/dot_clear.gif" width=3D23></TD>
        <TD width=3D213><IMG border=3D0 height=3D1=20
            src=3D"../assets/images/dot_clear.gif" width=3D213></TD>
        <TD width=3D6><IMG border=3D0 height=3D1=20
            src=3D"../assets/images/dot_clear.gif" width=3D6></TD>
        <TD width=3D247><IMG border=3D0 height=3D1=20
            src=3D"../assets/images/dot_clear.gif" =
width=3D247></TD></TR>
    <TR align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop>
        <TD></TD>
        <TD width=3D213>
            <P><FONT size=3D-1>[</FONT><A =
href=3D"/hawking/html/home.html"><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>Home</FONT></A><FONT size=3D-1>] [</FONT><A=20
            href=3D"../html/stuff.html"><FONT size=3D-1>Strange Stuff=20
            Explained</FONT></A><FONT size=3D-1>]</FONT></P></TD>
        <TD colSpan=3D2></TD></TR>
    <TR align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop>
        <TD colSpan=3D4 height=3D3></TD></TR>
    <TR align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop>
        <TD></TD>
        <TD colSpan=3D2 width=3D219>
            <P><FONT size=3D-1>[</FONT><A =
href=3D"http://www.pbs.org"><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>PBS Online</FONT></A><FONT size=3D-1>]&nbsp;&nbsp; =
[</FONT><A=20
            href=3D"http://www.wnet.org"><FONT =
size=3D-1>wNetStation</FONT></A><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>]</FONT></P></TD>
        <TD></TD></TR>
    <TR align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop>
        <TD colSpan=3D4 =
height=3D8></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BDA8FB.58AC81C0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 15:44:59 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26527;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:40:58 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:40:58 -0700
Message-ID: <000301bda92e$a958c9c0$c2b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: ORPHEUS home page (http://lhepsun0.unibe.ch/orpheus/)
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:37:02 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01BDA8FC.4E033560"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"IUG-D3.0.vT6.r9Ler" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20334
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BDA8FC.4E033560
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

WIMP Detection Experiment. Easy Huh?
LENR WIMP Generator?

http://lhepsun0.unibe.ch/orpheus/

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BDA8FC.4E033560
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="ORPHEUS home page.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="ORPHEUS home page.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://lhepsun0.unibe.ch/orpheus/
Modified=40DD3D4A2EA9BD0139

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BDA8FC.4E033560--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 16:39:29 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15839;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:35:44 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:35:44 -0700
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:34:26 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" <jdo acs.ucalgary.ca>
Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" <jdo acs.ucalgary.ca>
To: George Holz <george varisys.com>
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Electronic Ballast Light Bulbs (New Toys)?
In-Reply-To: <01bda914$5a846cb0$9b6cd626 george.varisys.com>
Message-Id: <Pine.A41.3.96.980706172318.60460B-100000 acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"eATpS2.0.Mt3.FzLer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20335
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

You said:"radiometric efficiency in green -> 700 lumens/watt
I've been using many of the compact fluorescent lamps for
several years now, my only problem has been that they
tend to create significant EM noise."
________________________________________________________________________
~George: Is radiometric lighting commercially available? Waht happened to
LEDs and electroluminescent lighting on your list?

The compact fluorescent lights designed by John Nash Ott (leading
photobiologist) and sold by Environmental Lighting Consultants in
Florida has built-in barriers to reduce EMF. They are probably one N (if
not the) healthiest, long-life, energy-efficient CFs available. Jorg Ostrowski





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 17:08:08 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06735;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:05:53 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:05:53 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <002101bda939$7b72e800$c2b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>, <rl_brodzinski@pnl.gov>
Subject: LENR- WIMP Reactions?
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:54:52 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"zRrF31.0.8f1.WPMer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20336
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Assuming that a heavy element can absorb
a Quasi-Neutron (0-qn1)and spall off a WIMP 
(0-n12), (0-n24) or (0-n36)etc., and Fe,Cr,
C, and so on; a reaction with Tungsten:

1, 0-n1 + 74 W 184 ---> 

2  24 Cr 51 + 26 Fe 56 + 0n24 + 2 neutrons

(in rough numbers).  :-)

2, 0-n24 + 74 W 184 ---> 82 Pb 208 + 8 Beta minus decays?

Wimps created in Neutron Stars, and build the
heavy elements in Supernovas?

Regards,   Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 22:08:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27740;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:02:01 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:02:01 -0700
Message-ID: <35A19E50.77AD earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 23:04:32 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Perreault: New Energy Source Discovered!!! 7.2.98
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"KOKGG2.0.Mn6.8lQer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20337
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!news.idt.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!europa.clark.net!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!204.97.16.5!news.monad.net!not-for-mail
From: "Bruce A. Perreault" <nuenergy cyberportal.net>
Newsgroups: sci.physics,alt.energy.homepower,alt.energy.renewable,sci.physics.fusion,sci.physics,sci.physics.particle,sci.electronics.design,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: New Energy Source Discovered!!!
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 10:21:26 -0400
Organization: International Society for Integrated Science (ISIS)
Message-ID: <359B9766.6036 cyberportal.net>
References: <359277FD.CB6B7FB0 engr.uvic.ca> <6mucrq$a5a$7@glencoe.hw.ac.uk> <6n3323$365$1@news.fsu.edu>
Reply-To: nuenergy cyberportal.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: plym3-pool-3.cyberportal.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
CC: nuenergy cyberportal.net
Xref: nntp.earthlink.net sci.physics:237334 alt.energy.homepower:6816 alt.energy.renewable:33953 sci.physics.fusion:22377 sci.physics.particle:21475 sci.electronics.design:83875 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:58015

To All my Research Peers,
 
I am posting this message to tell you about my recently
released energy related research findings. You can now
download my updated Radiant Energy Research Manual that is now 
given freely to provide validation for my Radiant Energy discoveries. 
All I ask is that you spread the word about this technology and 
that you give me credit for my research and share any 
improvements that you may make with the rest of us. This manual 
is the results of my research with radiant energy that spans 
about fifteen years. It contains basic but full construction 
details and I am sure that you will be thrilled with this 
information. It is absolutely FREE and a password is no longer
required to open this file.

Please go to this location and download file,

http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/swampy/1/manual201.pdf
 
To open manual201.pdf will require a PDF reader you can get this
at no charge at,

http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/readstep.html

Proof of concept prototypes will not produce huge amounts of excess
power. However, as you will see, the basic conversion concept can be 
modified to produce usable amounts of "self-sustaining" excess 
energy.

I have invited you to get involved with this technology to end the
rumors that have been circulating. Here is your chance to get hands 
on experience with this technology. To my knowledge this is the first 
in history that a researcher has freely shared this type of info.

As for the "Uncle Al's" and "Decker's" of the world, GO AWAY!
You have distracted us innovators long enough. It is you who
are the suppressors of fresh ideas, new inventions and freedom
to think and to dream. It is time that we confront you killers 
of hope and lock you away for good.

I have not revealed all, it is my primary intention to validate the 
technology. After all, I have worked many years in this area of 
research and I have had to endure many distractions. I believe I have 
the right to hold onto a jewel or two.

If all goes well then I am hoping to have a product to market. You can 
help in this process simply by being my moral support. I am not asking 
for money. However, peer support is the most valuable thing that anyone 
could ever obain. 

P.S. If the file does not open sometimes when .pdf files go through 
certain servers they will not open. In that case I will have to send 
you the file via e-mail. Write to me at,

nuenergy cyberportal.net

Last minute additions were added to the manual201.pdf 
The latest upload occured at 10:00am est. 

Warm regards,
-Bruce A. Perreault (-BAP)

Sponsored by,

http://www.cyberportal.net/nuenergy/main.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 22:14:53 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28414;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:05:10 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:05:10 -0700
Message-ID: <35A19EF6.4DBF earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 23:07:18 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Tutt: The Crackpot Index 7.5.98
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"TX5El2.0.px6.5oQer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20338
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!la-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!usenet
From: Teresa Tutt <TUTTT psfc.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion,alt.fan.jed-rothwell,alt.fan.charles-cagle,alt.fan.gene-mallove,alt.fan.perpetual-motion,alt.fan.over-unity
Subject: (fwd) The Crackpot Index
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 16:32:09 -0400
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Message-ID: <359FAA89.75921F28 psfc.mit.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.pfc.mit.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V6.2-1H3 DEC 3000 Model 300)
Xref: nntp.earthlink.net sci.physics.fusion:22393

Some time ago, John Baez (moderator of sci.physics.research, among many
other laudable achievements) developed the Crackpot Index "for rating
potentially revolutionary contributions to physics". (See below for the
full text.)



                       THE CRACKPOT INDEX
            A simple method for rating potentially
            revolutionary contributions to physics.

 1) A -5 point starting credit.
 2) 1 point for every statement that is widely agreed on to be false.
 3) 2 points for every statement that is clearly vacuous.
 4) 3 points for every statement that is logically inconsistent.
 5) 5 points for each such statement that is adhered to despite careful
 correction.
 6) 5 points for using a thought experiment that contradicts the
 results of a widely accepted real experiment.
 7) 5 points for each word in all capital letters (except for those
 with defective keyboards).
 8) 10 points for each claim that quantum mechanics is fundamentally
 misguided (without good evidence).
 9) 10 points for each favorable comparison of oneself to Einstein, or
 claim that special or general relativity are fundamentally misguided
 (without good evidence).
 10) 10 points for pointing out that one has gone to school, as if this
 were evidence of sanity.
 11) 20 points for suggesting that you deserve a Nobel prize.
 12) 20 points for each favorable comparison of oneself to Newton or
 claim that classical mechanics is fundamentally misguided (without
 evidence).
 13) 20 points for every use of science fiction works or myths as if
 they were fact.
 14) 20 points for defending yourself by bringing up (real or imagined)
 ridicule accorded to ones past theories.
 15) 30 points for each favorable comparison of oneself to Galileo,
 claims that the Inquisition is hard at work on ones case, etc..
 16) 30 points for claiming that the "scientific establishment" is
 engaged in a "conspiracy" to prevent ones work from gaining its
 well-deserved fame, or suchlike.
 17) 40 points for claiming one has a revolutionary theory but
 giving no concrete testable predictions.
                                                                                
-- 
Teresa E. Tutt                           email: tuttt psfc.mit.edu
Graduate Student, (G1)                         Phone: 617-253-9853    
Alcator C-MOD Group,                              Office: NW17-281
Current project: Diamagnetic Loop diagnostic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 22:28:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23248;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:19:52 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:19:52 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A1A19D.FD4 earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 23:18:37 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Miller: spallation in CF? 7.5.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"AaLis1.0.7h5.q_Qer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20339
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July 9, 1998

Hello all,

Has anyone ever suggested that nuclear spallation might explain the
``low energy nuclear reactions'' involving heavy elements that are
supposed to be occurring in the electrodes in the Ohmori and Mizuno
paper, and various other papers that report what Mallove calls
"Electro-Alchemy"? I am asking this because I have had only limited
opportunities for a number of months to keep up with cold fusion
research and related topics (among other things, Oklahoma State no
longer subscribes to Fusion Technology), so I don't want to waste
your time on something that has already been considered in some
publication or website that I have not seen.

However, everything I have seen on this subject either simply uses the
vague phrase ``low energy nuclear reactions'' or postulates exotic
concepts like charge clusters, hopping neutrons, or hydrinos, that have
all been devised on the assumption that if the reported excess heat
phenomena are real then they cannot be understood using established
physical knowledge. Perhaps there is some value in thinking about a
possible interpretation of novel phenomena that would put them within
the framework of past knowledge without dismissing them as erroneous or
unimportant, as a way to see some possibilities for new experiments that
could break out of the present pattern of arguing over the presence or
absence of excess heat.

Having seen in the past few days Rich Murray's mailings of both the
Mallove discussion of Ohmori and Mizuno's recent work and Murray's own
ideas about the ``little lily volcanos'', which also appear to contain
unexpected elements, I remembered that not only is spallation an
important aspect of the interaction of cosmic rays with the matter they
hit, but that it used to be the basis for a class of neutron sources:
you set up a target of a heavy element like tungsten, and hit it with
electrons energetic enough (some hundreds of keV, if I remember
correctly) to occasionally knock neutrons out of the nuclei. In short,
spallation is a known and well-studied nuclear phenomenon, different
from both fission and fusion, in which the impact of a sufficiently
energetic particle ejects small numbers of particles from a larger
nucleus, or perhaps even disrupts it into several large fragments,
depending on the mass and energy of the incoming particle.

The possibility of spallation in these electrochemical experiments
follows from hypothesizing that at least some of the energy from fusion
of two nuclei of hydrogen isotopes might accelerate some of the
conduction electrons surrounding them to energies of tens or hundreds of
keV. (This hypothesis came to me as a possible explanation for some of
the other aspects of the ``cold fusion'' reaction that have been
reported, but I do not want to digress about the details here.) It
suggests several points that ought to be testable experimentally. If
anyone is interested I can expand on these very brief summaries
somewhere else. 

First, the spallation products should only be elements that have smaller
atomic numbers than the cathode metal. Any heavier elements have to be
impurities from elsewhere in the cell.

Second, the isotopic distribution of spallation products should follow
past experimental data about spallation, and be at least partly
explained by established knowledge about nuclear shell structure.

Third, it should be possible to use energetic electron beams to simulate
the hypothesized impact of energetic electrons generated by fusion
reactions. It may be possible to do this by making cathodes from W, Pt,
or Pd, as in the previous experiments, but exposing them to the beam in
a sufficiently powerful electron microscope instead of using them in
further electrochemical cells.

Fourth, if the observed unexpected elements are impurities, as Murray
argues, then the amount collected should depend on the number of
coulombs that pass through the cell, but not on the amount of excess
heat apparently produced by the cell; conversely, if they are spallation
products, then they should vary according to the excess heat apparently
produced. Varying the deuterium content of the electrolyte might
therefore be expected to have an effect on the production of spallation
products; perhaps for the sake of safety this should be done by trying a
doubling or tripling of the natural deuterium concentration of about one
part in 6000, instead of using pure D2O. Evidently, looking for a
composition that would be a signature of spallation would provide a more
specific standard for comparison with experiments than just ``isotopic
ratio anomalies''. Convincing evidence of spallation would show that
something nonchemical is happening; conversely, verifying the impurity
theory would be a strong blow against hopes for a new source of energy.

I do not know how difficult these measurements would be, but I know that
I am not in a position to do any of them. If anyone ever attempts an
experiment along the lines I have suggested, I would appreciate being
told.

Sincerely,

David Miller

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  6 22:29:05 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24935;
	Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:27:29 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:27:29 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A1A27E.172E earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 23:22:22 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Miller: Wdmil aol.com 7.5.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"GV0PC.0.X56.07Rer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20340
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July 5,1998  David Miller is Wdmil aol.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 01:09:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA16661;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 01:03:24 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 01:03:24 -0700
From: "Brendan Hall" <brendan mackayallen.com.au>
To: "'Vortex Discussion Group'" <Vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Tutt: The Crackpot Index 7.5.98
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:41:23 +1000
Message-ID: <000a01bda97f$27b424e0$2664a8c0 pc038---brendan>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
In-Reply-To: <35A19EF6.4DBF earthlink.net>
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"Er6sA2.0.F44.CPTer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20341
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


According to this, let's see how Einstein himself goes.

Start		-5
Claimed that quantum mechanics fundamentally causal rather than
probabilistic +1
"God does not play dice with the universe" +5
Thought experiment re speed of light better than Newtonian Physics +5
Understood the limits of Special Relativity  +10
Looked at himself in the mirror and thought "Hey, you must be Albert
Einstein" +10
  (OK, OK, I have no proof for this one, the thought may not ever have enter
his head.)
Claims Newtonian Physics incorrect +20
"God ...." +20 for Atheists

Total
Conservative  36
Atheistic  56
Mind reading atheistic 66

Well, maybe it is "A simple method for rating potentially revolutionary
contributions to
physics" - it sure scores Einstein well.  It is also interesting that it
rates logic (+3) as
fundamentally less important than quantum mechanics (+10), relativity (+10),
Newtonian
physics (+20) and Galilean politics (+30).  Governed by this trend, logic
must be a
very recently accepted paradigm in physics.

;-)

Brendan Hall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 04:31:52 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA00388;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 04:27:45 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 04:27:45 -0700
Message-ID: <004201bda999$cd5daa00$c2b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Ohmori's experiment in Grenoble: light, no heat!
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:23:45 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"SBsh4.0.v5.mOWer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20342
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jean-Paul wrote:

>
>Does anyone know how much energy is dissipated
>in a fluorescent tube? We are relatively
>close to that situation.
>

The data that I have for a 40 watt fluorescent
tube: light; 0.9 watts, heat; 15.1 watts,
energy used to convert to the 254nm uv; 24 watts. 

After that you get into phosphor conversion
efficiency etc.

I don't know if this means much under the
conditions of the present experiment though.

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 04:44:26 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA29978;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 04:43:16 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 04:43:16 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199807071132.HAA27692 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Ohmori's experiment in Grenoble: light, no heat!
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 98 07:39:48 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"qO_ym.0.KK7.IdWer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20343
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jean-Paul,

Thank you for your fine contribution.. A few questions:
>
>         We stopped the experiment after 10 minutes, but a crude calculation
>of the amount of heat necessary to evaporate the 35 cc of electrolyte gave
>no excess heat.

Did you include in the output calculation the amount of energy needed to 
raise the larger total volume of electrolyte (presumably greater than 35 
cc) from its starting temperature to a temperature of bulk liquid near 
boiling point?  What is the "crude calculation"?
>
Do you have any means at your disposal for analyzing the gas content of 
the evolved material -- beyond assuming water vapor boil-off? It may also 
be that the high intensity plasma-like dischage may be splitting water 
molecules, leading to possible chemical energy in the gas that should be 
accounted for. This issue certainly is promiment in the evaluation of 
Aqual-Fuel -- underwater carbon arc gas generation. Perhaps it is an 
issue in this system.
>
>        We have analysed by X rays fluorescence the two cathodes, but have
>not observed any new element within the sensitivity of this type of
>instrument, i.e. about 1%.
>
Good, and very interesting.


Best wishes,

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 05:11:02 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA05240;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:08:54 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:08:54 -0700
Message-ID: <19980707120833.333.qmail hotmail.com>
X-Originating-IP: [194.73.204.17]
From: "Rob King" <kingrs hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Perreault: New Energy Source Discovered!!! 7.2.98
Content-Type: text/plain
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 05:08:33 PDT
Resent-Message-ID: <"eiSI01.0.jH1.L_Wer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20344
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi,

Read some of the PDF document and I can't see why he's playing down the 
danger of radio-active elements.
You only have to look at the surrounding areas of Chenoble to see the 
devastating effects that radiation has had over the past few years.  I 
think I remember see a program where all the people that were drafted in 
to clean up the place died very shortly afterwards. There were thousands 
of mal-formed babies and people dying from a whole assortment of things.
Also Mr Perreault you cannot claim that your device is over-unity no 
more than a solar panel on my house is over-unity.
I also understand the Thesta-Distatica is based on radio-active parts to 
get it to work.
Well thats my gripe over for the day...

:)


Rob King




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 05:13:49 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA04411;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:12:46 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:12:46 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980707070630.0087fe80 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 07:06:30 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: better Ohmori paper
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Lfnxk3.0.r41.x2Xer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20345
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Thanks to impressive image manipulation by Patrick Reavis, the Ohmori &
Mizuno paper on our web site is now cleaner, easier to read, and only about
1/3 of the original file size.  Each page is now a .gif file.

The address is still:

http://www.eden.com/~little/ohmori.html


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 05:40:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA11693;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:36:51 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:36:51 -0700
Message-ID: <35A21746.32E0 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 05:40:39 -0700
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: editor infinite-energy.com
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Ohmori's experiment in Grenoble: light, no heat!
References: <199807071132.HAA27692 mercury.mv.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"2-xfh1.0.Xs2.YPXer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20346
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July, 7, 1998

'Gene,

Hope you do not mind. I also fowarded to Ohmori and Mizuno your Vortex
posted e-mail to Jean-Paul. Getting to be like Rich! My apologies if you
did also. I think it constructive to let them know what is starting over
here and France also. Ohmori bemoaned the situation that their light
water experiments were not being taken more seriously and discussed more
widely.

Also, if furthur details are only in Japanese text, I've told them not
to hesitate but send that over for 'easy' translation.

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 05:51:44 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA14104;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:49:14 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:49:14 -0700
Message-ID: <006e01bda9a5$2f9da340$c2b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Ohmori's experiment in Grenoble: light, no heat!
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 06:45:42 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"tpQoH1.0.IS3.AbXer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20347
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
To: editor infinite-energy.com <editor@infinite-energy.com>
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 6:39 AM
Subject: Re: Ohmori's experiment in Grenoble: light, no heat!


>July, 7, 1998

Aki wrote:
>
>'Gene,
>
>Hope you do not mind. I also fowarded to Ohmori and Mizuno your Vortex
>posted e-mail to Jean-Paul. Getting to be like Rich! 

Never,Never,impossible! :-)

Regards,   Frederick


>My apologies if you
>did also. I think it constructive to let them know what is starting over
>here and France also. Ohmori bemoaned the situation that their light
>water experiments were not being taken more seriously and discussed more
>widely.
>
>Also, if furthur details are only in Japanese text, I've told them not
>to hesitate but send that over for 'easy' translation.
>
>-AK-
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 07:26:05 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19168;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:23:29 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:23:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: aki ix.netcom.com
Message-ID: <35A2321C.10F8 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 07:35:08 -0700
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320  (Win95; U; 16bit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: better Ohmori paper
References: <3.0.5.32.19980707070630.0087fe80 mail.eden.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"pbb1N1.0.Mh4.UzYer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20348
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July 7, 1998

Scott,

A very nice job. I guess I had a gif choice but picked jpeg. I did not
want to "edit" anything at all even if it meant cleaning it up because
of questions of 'manipulation'. So the images were saved, warts and all.
Thanks to Patrick Reaves for cleaning it up.

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 08:00:32 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA07679;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:55:36 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:55:36 -0700
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:51:03 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Ohmori's experiment in Grenoble
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807071054_MC2-5265-AA9 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"Qt6Yl1.0.ut1.dRZer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20349
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Gene Mallove writes:

     It may also be that the high intensity plasma-like discharge may be
     splitting water molecules, leading to possible chemical energy in the
     gas that should be accounted for.

Yes, if the experiment works too well, it looks like it is not working at all.
Kellogg estimated the cathode temperature was between 750 and 1000 deg C,
based on the incandescence. Does anyone know if this temperature is high
enough to fracture water?

If the water is fractured it will take a recombiner to account for the energy.
It would take only a tiny amount of excess free hydrogen and oxygen to carry
off a substantial amount of energy. I do not think you could detect it by
condensing the gas, weighing the condensate, and comparing it to the mass of
water lost from the cell. You have to condense and recombine, and capture the
heat from recombination, in a tightly closed cell. It gets hairy quickly,
because the recombiner must be above the water level, and the heat, naturally,
wants to get out the cell rather than heating the mass of water below it.

Normally there should not be much energy lost to oxygen and hydrogen gas from
electrolysis, because voltage is high. At 160 V, 0.7 A, 111 watts goes into
joule heating and 1 watt into gas production, if I have done my arithmetic
right. (Gas production for water is 1.48*amps.)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 09:08:05 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22131;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:01:58 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:01:58 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980707120604.00c679e0 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 12:06:04 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Electronic Ballast Light Bulbs (New Toys)?
Cc: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "George" <gsparb@juno.com>
In-Reply-To: <004f01bda8ec$c9786220$158f85ce default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"dHMCV2.0.iP5.rPaer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20350
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 08:45 AM 7/6/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>I bought two G.E. 100 watt(light) that draw 28 watts and one 75 watt (light)
>that draws 18 watts and a 20 watt (light) that draws less than 3 watts.
>
>Does that mean that these are all O/U?   :-)
 
    No, it means that flourescent lights emit about seven times as much
visible light as a standard incandescent lamp.  The incandescent lamp emits
much more energy in the infrared, because it is almost a classic black
body.  You can, of course, increase the fraction of energy emitted by an
incandescent lamp in the visible band by increasing the filament
temperature,  which also decreases the life dramatically, unless you use a
halogen cycle. Even with halogen cycles, you can't get the color
temperature above the melting point of tungsten.  (But I have gotten within
50 degrees K.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 09:32:29 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09038;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:28:21 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:28:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226
Message-Id: <v03020900b1c7f082b761 [128.183.200.195]>
In-Reply-To: <35A1455F.17465FB1 harti.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:23:58 -0400
To: leoguitar vossnet.de
From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Second law theory article online !
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Resent-Message-ID: <"7IHd3.0.8D2.Xoaer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20351
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>A new article by Dieter Bauer is set up on the theory page of my server
>at
>
>http://www.overunity.com/theory.htm    or more specific
>http://www.overunity.com/2ndlaw/2ndlaw.htm

>Stefan Hartmann

  I looked over this article and I am sorry to say that it appears to be
invalid.  First of all, the article attempts to derive knowledge of the
entropy density production using reversible thermodynamics but reversible
thermodynamics gives zero entropy production.  It is only irreversible
thermodynamics that will give a non zero entropy production.  The only two
known mechanisms causing irreversibility is viscosity and heat conduction
and this article provides no information on these two mechanisms.  Worst of
all is the final result

   Integral{ T dS } < 0   .

There is no law of thermodynamics corresponding to this result.  Since the
change in heat dQ is given by

    dQ = T dS

then the supposed result is

   Integral{ dQ } < 0

which is untrue for a wide range of thermodynamical cycles.  The proper
statement of the second law is

   Integral{ dS } > 0




Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 09:46:45 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA06464;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:40:47 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:40:47 -0700
Message-ID: <35A25125.11607396 crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 18:47:33 +0200
From: "Jean - Paul Bibérian" <biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Ohmori's experiment in Grenoble
References: <199807071054_MC2-5265-AA9 compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"mNm6R.0.na1.E-aer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20352
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Normally there should not be much energy lost to oxygen and hydrogen gas from
> electrolysis, because voltage is high. At 160 V, 0.7 A, 111 watts goes into
> joule heating and 1 watt into gas production, if I have done my arithmetic
> right. (Gas production for water is 1.48*amps.)
>

This is correct. The recombination error in this regime is negligeable 1.48V/160V,
less than 1%.

We need to do better calorimetry, but as usual we went for large effects. We have
to do it again in a better calorimeter. We have all the equipment necessary to do
it, it is just a question of time and priority.

We tried Case, and we did not see much. At best one tenth of  what he claims, so
we are prudent.

Jean-Paul Biberian

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 11:33:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02931;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:26:06 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:26:06 -0700
From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Electronic Ballast Light Bulbs (New Toys)?
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:31:57 -0400
Message-ID: <01bda9d5$85cd3bb0$9b6cd626 george.varisys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"hbCn5.0.ij.-Wcer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20353
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jorg D. Ostrowski asks:

>You said:"radiometric efficiency in green -> 700 lumens/watt
>________________________________________________________________________
>~George: Is radiometric lighting commercially available? Waht happened to
>LEDs and electroluminescent lighting on your list?
>
The 700 lumens/watt number was for reference only.
If a radiometric efficiency of 100% is assumed 
(all input power converted to light)in a color that matches
the peak human eye sensitivity, this would provide the
luminous efficiency of about 700 lumens/watt.
I believe the actual theoretical maximum efficiency
is 770 lumens/watt.
Again, from memory without looking up the actual numbers,
LEDs typically provide .5 to 2 lumens/watt and 
electroluminescents around 10 lumens/watt with brightness/life
tradeoffs.
George Holz      george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 15:25:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22741;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:22:34 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:22:34 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199807072212.SAA11244 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Ohmori's experiment in Grenoble
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 98 18:19:09 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"iZTVw3.0.AZ5.e-fer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20354
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jed wrote:

>Kellogg estimated the cathode temperature was between 750 and 1000 deg C,
>based on the incandescence. Does anyone know if this temperature is high
>enough to fracture water?

First of all, Kellogg's cathode temperature may have nothimg to do with 
actual temperature of the plasma surrounding the cathode, whihc has got 
ot be much higher.

>If the water is fractured it will take a recombiner to account for the 
>energy.

Yes.

>It would take only a tiny amount of excess free hydrogen and oxygen to carry
>off a substantial amount of energy.

Yes, indeed.

> I do not think you could detect it by
>condensing the gas, weighing the condensate, and comparing it to the mass of
>water lost from the cell. You have to condense and recombine, and capture the
>heat from recombination, in a tightly closed cell. It gets hairy quickly,
>because the recombiner must be above the water level, and the heat, 
>naturally,
>wants to get out the cell rather than heating the mass of water below it.
>
>Normally there should not be much energy lost to oxygen and hydrogen gas from
>electrolysis, because voltage is high. At 160 V, 0.7 A, 111 watts goes into
>joule heating and 1 watt into gas production, if I have done my arithmetic
>right. (Gas production for water is 1.48*amps.)

But tis is NOT standard electrolysis, far from it. The AquaFuel peoiple 
are finding amazing things anout the gas evolved. I hope when they 
disclose these effects -- confidential for now -- we will all  know a lot 
more about this "standard stuff" called water.

Best, Gene Mallove
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 17:52:16 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27555;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:48:34 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:48:34 -0700
Message-ID: <35A2B46C.59BE earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 18:51:08 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Thomas: 20 Kev reactions in Be in SEM? 7.6.98
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"eXmOh1.0.8k6.X7ier" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20356
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!worldfeed.gte.net!nntp.flash.net!excalibur.flash.net!not-for-mail
From: "JOSEPH E. THOMAS" <thomasje flashnet.net>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Miller: spallation in CF? 7.5.98
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:33:06 -0700
Organization: Flashnet Communications, http://www.flash.net
Message-ID: <6ntfbp$qso$1 excalibur.flash.net>
References: <35A1A20B.566 earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: paltc12-74.flash.net
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Xref: nntp.earthlink.net sci.physics.fusion:22401


Rich Murray wrote in message <35A1A20B.566 earthlink.net>...
>July 9, 1998
>
>Hello all,
>
>Has anyone ever suggested that nuclear spallation might explain the
>``low energy nuclear reactions''
SNIPPED
  I have often wondered about that as a possibility in regards to light
elements in the SEM. If one ignores the topography and examines the
background "noise" from Be, for example you can often see large spikes that
are certainly not electrons, striking the scintillator. We just assumed they
were negative ions. The background noise from Be is always remarkable with a
20KEV beam when compared to Wo, for example.




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 17:57:30 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04904;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:49:04 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:49:04 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A2B2B8.4E1D earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 18:43:52 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Shanks: Hafnium stimulated nuclear emission 7.3.98
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"JKDIM1.0.YC1.z7ier" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20355
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!not-for-mail
From: W Shanks <wshanks erols.com>
Newsgroups: sci.physics,alt.energy.homepower,alt.energy.renewable,sci.physics.fusion,sci.physics,sci.physics.particle,sci.electronics.design,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: New Energy Source Discovered!!!
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 04:14:33 -0400
Organization: Erol's Internet Services
Message-ID: <359C92E9.7E43 erols.com>
References: <359277FD.CB6B7FB0 engr.uvic.ca> <6mucrq$a5a$7@glencoe.hw.ac.uk> <6n3323$365$1@news.fsu.edu> <359B9766.6036@cyberportal.net>
Reply-To: wshanks erols.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207-172-35-234.s234.tnt9.brd.erols.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: winter.news.erols.com 899497091 7906 207.172.35.234 (3 Jul 1998 20:18:11 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse erols.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-DH397  (Win95; I)
Xref: nntp.earthlink.net sci.physics:237560 alt.energy.homepower:6836 alt.energy.renewable:34006 sci.physics.fusion:22388 sci.physics.particle:21495 sci.electronics.design:83984 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:58107

for the record, this device that he describes is not a "free" energy
machine.  In principle it violates no physics.  What he has outlined is
some form of a radio thermal generator (RTG).  instead of letting the
radioactive energy produce heat, which drives a thermopile generator, he
is using the energy to disassociate water into H and O, which then
drives a conventional fuel cell.  The idea is sound.  As materials and
technology improves I could see this as a possible space craft power
source, that would be more efficient than the conventional RTG. 

The problem is getting enough radioactive material that liberates usable
amounts of energy.  RTGs use Plutonium, and Cesium, and some other
elements.  It is true that Polonium is energetic, but it is rare.

The problem I have with this scheme is the production of large amounts
of Polonium...... I do not think you can induce alpha decay with
energies in the .1 MeV range.  You will need tens if not hundreds of MeV
to stimulate nuclear decay.  The problem is that the process, although
possible, eats up more energy than is recovered in usable polonium.

I have never heard of the Moray method, and I am skeptical at the claim
that you can speed up the decay of Uranium by a factor of 20000.

Perhaps you should elaborate on this more




There is research being done currently that looks to tap the energy
stored in excited nuclear states.  Several elements have decay products
that are left in an excited nuclear state.  Like an atom with an excited
electronic state  The excited system will decay by the emission of a
photon.  The photon energies associated with electronic decay are in the
eV range (light).  The photon energies associated with nuclear decay are
in the MeV range (gamma rays).  I seem to remember that one of the
isotopes of Halfnium is almost always in an excited state with an energy
of a few Mev.  Most of this  isotope is still excited because the half
life for this state is billions of years.  Using the Mausbower (sp?)
effect you can use gamma rays of the exact emission energy to stimulate
the emission of gamma rays from the Halfnium.  There has been some
experiments at U of Texas (Austin?) that showed a significant increase
in the gamma emission rate cause by stimulated emission.

Because of the near fission like energy liberated they are looking into
using this as a detonator for a pure fusion bomb.



Wayne S

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 19:27:48 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA26654;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:24:52 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:24:52 -0700
Message-Id: <199807080221.WAA22866 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Update on Minato Demonstrations - 7/7/98
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 98 22:24:31 -0000
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"KG3PG2.0.JW6.oXjer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20357
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Vortexians: 

I spoke to Bob Vermillion of Tri-Cosmos Development (Los Angeles, CA  
310-284-3250 or fax 310-284-3260) today, just before he left for the 
three-day demonstrations of the Minato  magnetic motor being held in 
Mexico City, Mexico on July 8, 9, 10th.

Three (3) Minato Motors (MM), covered by US patents  5,594,289 (Jan 14, 
1997) and (4,751,486 June 14, 1988), have been brought over from Japan. 
One was allegedly tested last evening by  Grupo Bufete Industrial 
(supposedly one of the largest power generation construction companies in 
Mexico and South America). The company engineers were said  (by 
Vermillion) to have measured an output /input ratio of  4.3 / 1.  The 
printed literature, which I received in a Fedex packet from Vermillion 
states that the device can put out 500 watts (maximum) with an input of 
34 watts. For those of you who wonder why the device is not 
self-sustaining -- oral info from Vermillion is that Minato *will* in the 
course of one of the demonstrations *remove the battery power supply* and 
let the device self-run -- presumably with a load.  The press release 
makes no bones about the physics-busting character of the MM: "As 
rotations per minute (rpm's) increase, the electromagnetic consumption of 
the stator decreases. This phenomenon is in direct conflict with accepted 
laws of physics and is achieved through the repelling magnetic fields. It 
operates without heat, noise, or pollution of any kind. It can be 
produced in size from ultra-small to very large."  It is said in the 
press release that applications from cell phones to laptop computers are 
under development.

Vermillion told me of other parties who were planning to attend the 
demonstrations, which will be conducted both in public displays and  with 
private party measurements. These include: ENRON, Bechtel, Tejas (a 
division of Shell Oil Corporation), Fluor Daniels, Kellogg  Corp. . He 
told me that Hal Fox of New Energy News and the Fusion Information Center 
will be there (I confirmed with Hal that he will be there and will give 
us a full report.) I considered going myself (I was invited), but I trust 
Hal Fox to provide a full report -- he should be back this weekend.

 Mr. Kohei Minato will be there -- he has already arrived, I understand. 
He hand carried one of the motors that was already tested yesterday. The 
wealthy Japanese individual who owns Tri-Cosmos Dev. Co.  is Mr. Charly 
Fujiki. Attendance is by invitation only, but let me here provide the 
Grupo Bufete numbers:  (723-45-78 and Fax  723-47-18 in Mexico City). The 
exhibition will be in the Grupo Bufete Industrial building. The 
invitation says: "Mr. Minato, the inventor, will be present to explain 
and demonstrate his remarkable breakthrough in technology to government 
and business leaders in Mexico. He will also discuss the possible use   
(and) application for various other industries, including a giant 
generator project, based on the principal mechanism being displayed." 
Daily demonstrations are from 10:30 am to Noon, 4:30 to 5:30 pm and 6 to 
7:30 pm.

A block diagram of the motor indicates that it is about 500 kg. An arrow 
indicates that its 500 watt output goes to a load -- schematically 
indicated as an array of light bulbs. The unit is within a cube 1.2 
meters on edge. The diagram shows a solar panel(!!) providing input to  
the battery that powers the device  -  I supposes for completeness, but 
that is obviously silly in view of the claim. Vermillion assured me that 
this solar panel was not an essential part of the system.

One of the two color brochures in the package shows the Minato motor with 
its charactersitic coils that have their pole faces toward the perimeters 
of permanent magnet containing wheels that are stacked on an axle. If you 
looks at the thing quickly, you'd  think you were looking at a steam 
turbine.

The 1997 patent #5,594,289 states in its abstract:

"On a rotor which is fixed to a rotatable rotating shaft, a plurality of 
permanent magnets are disposed along the direction of rotation such that 
the same magnetic pole type therof face outward.  In the same way, 
balancers are disposed on the rotor for balancing rotation of this rotor. 
Each of the permanent magnets is obliquely arranged with respect to the 
radial direction line of the rotor. At the outer periphery of the rotor, 
an electromagnet is disposed facing this rotor, with this electromagnet 
intermittently energized based on the rotation of the rotor.  According 
to the magnetic rotating apparatus of the present invention, rotational 
energy can be efficiently obtained from permanent magnets.  This is made 
possible by minimizing as much as possible current supplied to the 
electromagnets, so that only a required amount of electrical energy is 
supplied to the electromagnets."

It will be interesting, indeed, to learn what comes out of this.  Perhaps 
the famous white rabbit disappearing down a hole, or maybe the birth of a 
revolution? We  shall see.

Best wishes, Gene

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

Ph:  603-228-4516
Fax: 603-224-5975

  editor infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 20:10:42 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14152;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:07:46 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:07:46 -0700
Message-ID: <001701bdaa1d$1721b360$aab4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Tri-neutron WIMPs and possible reactions?
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:03:31 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"fzKx7.0.JS3.-9ker" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20358
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

A bit of speculation based on a stable tri-neutron (0-n3)WIMP as part of
*The Sea of WIMPs
(0-nX) making up 99% of the mass of the Universe*:

1, 0-n3 (beta decay) ---> Tritium

2, 0-n3 + proton ---> 1-H4 (beta decay)---> He4

3, 0-n3 + 12-Mg24 (beta decay)---> 13-Al27

4, 0-n3 + 19-K39 (beta decay)---> 20-Ca42

and so on. This might explain why the sodium
atoms in the oceans out-number potassium atoms by 46 to one, and yet the
crustal Na/K ratio
is 2 to one.

Perhaps the LENR and CF phenomena are the best way to Make and Detect WIMPs
ie.,(0-nX neutron groups)?

Regards,   Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  7 21:41:44 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06793;
	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:37:29 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:37:29 -0700
Message-ID: <35A2EA15.1A09 earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 22:40:05 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Blue: Miles: experiment trumps theory? 7.3.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"nb17t2.0.3g1.8Uler" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20359
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Subject: Re: Britz: Miles rebuttal in J Phy Chem (4.30.98) : Murray:
Jones, Shkedi recombination 6.29.98
  Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:20:18 -0400 (EDT)
  From: "Richard A Blue" <blue pilot.msu.edu>
    To: rmforall earthlink.net

The assertion made, it seems, by Mel Miles in his rebuttal(s)
that experimental evidence is "trumps" over any theoretical
considerations is one of the questionable ideas that continues
to plague the cold fusion debate.

In the absence of some well understood "theory" as to the
process being observed and the mechanisms by which evidence
is made observable, Mel Miles has no experiment.  He assumes
much about the chemistry and thermodynamics of the electrolysis
and calorimetery, and provides no experimental evidence to
justify his many assumptions.  As but one small example, he
asserts that his particular cell geometry assures that bubbles
induce sufficient radial and axial mixing.  Is that based
on experimental evidence?

My primary concern is not, however, with the proper techniques
for calorimetry and the theory that must underlie those
techniques.  My concern is with the clear bias which Miles
and others demonstrate in their selection of experimental
evidence which is to be considered.  If nuclear reactions
are under consideration here surely other experimental
observations involving these same reactants in nuclear
reactions processes have equal standing with the Miles
results.  Would Mel Miles say otherwise?  I would like
to see a clear statement from him on this point.

So we do not come to these "cold fusion" experiments in total
ignorance of either the chemical or nuclear processes that
may be involved.  Although it appears to have a negative
connotation with Mel Miles, theory is simply the most
concise embodiment of our accumulated knowledge about
these processes.  His rejection of any argument which he
sees as being theoretical is, in reality, a selective
rejection of valid experiment results which he has said
are "trumps."  His illogic should not be allowed to stand.

The experimental evidence which Mel Miles rejects, without
being forthright about it, is all that has been accumulated
relating to low energy reactions involving light nuclei
as well as the basic structure of said nuclei.  The fusion
of deuterium to form 4He has long been a subject for intense
study and a great deal in known about this process and the
reaction dynamics that governs it.  Cold fusion, after
all, is a known phenomenon that has been studied experimentally.

So the position that Mel Miles must defend, if he is to be
honest about it, is that his experiment involves deuterium
fusion that is somehow completely divorced from all those
earlier experimental results.  His deuterons take on a special
flavor and behave quite differently from, shall we say, my
deuterons.  Since we claiming that experimental evicence has
primacy let's see some evidence to support such outlandish
claims!  Of couse Mel Miles provides no evidence that his
deuterium is different.  He provides no evidence that the
helium "produced" is somehow different.  In fact his experiment
is dependent on assumptions that the deuterium is ordinary
deuterium and the helium is ordinary helium.  Without that
little bit of theory Mel Miles has no experiment to crow
about.

One thing that has always amazed me about the Miles claims is
the extent to which he sticks to orthodoxy as long as it
suits his purposes.  He will, for example, use the textbook
value for the energy release per fusion to assert that he
is observing helium production that is commensurate with the
observed excess heat.

So how does Mel Miles take a known reaction process (cold fusion)
which yields a known result (by experiment) and turn it into
something completely different?  I think we know what it takes
to do that in some general sense.  It requires a significant
perturbation of wavefunctions at some point.  [Oops! I forgot
Mel is not into quantum mechanics.  It's too theoretical.]
Well, for the rest of you let me just conclude by saying that
it takes one hell of a perturbation to get the results that
Mel Miles claims.

Given the choice between saying that Mel Miles can screw up
an experiment and that he can, by accident, perturb the
fusion process to such an extent I think the evidence supports
the former over the latter.  If he is to continue to claim
remarkable perturbations of nuclear wave functions via chemical
means he should provide confirming experimental evidence for
such effects.  There is, of course, a vast body of experimental
evidence on just this question, evidence that Mel Miles selectively
ignores.

Dick Blue

Subject: Re: Murray: Mallove: Tutt: CF positives? 7.2.98
  Date:  Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:34:58 -0400 (EDT)
  From:  "Richard A Blue" <blue pilot.msu.edu>
    To:  rmforall earthlink.net

Mallove continues to babble on about "heat after death" as
something real and significant for cold fusion.  Just precisely
what does that mean?

In the context of the Pons and Fleischman brand of cold fusion
I presume "heat after death" means that cold fusion continues to
generate significant quantities of heat after the power input
switch is thrown to the off position.  But, just like heat
generated while there is electrolysis occurring, the observed
heat does not have to be of nuclear origin.  In fact there is
good reason to believe that some heat will indeed be generated
after the cell is turned off due to chemical processes.  I know
of no example where anyone has offered any evidence to support
a claim that a nuclear reaction process accounts for any of the
"heat after death."

It's time, I think, to recap the argument that excess heat is
coming from a nuclear process during the time the cell is
"ON".  First of all there must be some excess heat, i.e. more
heat than can be generated by known processes.  However as soon
as the input power is turned off all heat, one might claim,
becomes "excess".  That would be true,however, only if there
were no chemical processes that could continue after the
electrolysis is stopped.

Now what we do know about these experiments, I think, is that
once the electrolysis is halted there is a significant
unloading of hydrogen from the cathode.  Does that not account
for there being "heat after death"?

Even more interesting about a claim that there is nuclear heat
after death is that it actually contradicts CF orthodoxy concerning
the requirement for high current density and high loading of the
cathode.  Obviously, if the reaction process can continue after
the current density drops to ZERO, high current density is not
actually required.  And since the cathode quickly unloads, any
"heat after death" is generated under conditions generally said
to be unsuitable for cold fusion.

Mallove is trying to have his cake and eat it, too.  If there
is any real "heat after death" something is rotten in the CF
camp as to essential conditions for cold fusion.

Of course "heat after death" is not real.  It's just as clear an
indication as you are likely to get that these cold fusion
experiments cannot actually determine when a nuclear reaction
process does occur.

Dick Blue

Subject: Re: Murray: Britz: Mengoli boiling D2O/Pd CF 6.24.98
  Date:  Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:40:26 -0400 (EDT)
  From:  "Richard A Blue" <blue pilot.msu.edu>
    To:  rmforall earthlink.net

I am fascinated by the concept of "heat after death" in the
context of a cold fusion experiment.  Let me suggest that
such observations are selfdefeating, in that any effect that
continues after the supposed process is shut down is not
really indicating that the process has occurred in the first
place.  That is to say the "excess heat" that continues
cannot really be "excess heat".  It must be an experimental
artifact.

I also cringe when I read this kind of off-the-cuff reasoning
as it relates to experimental protocols.  If this is truly
"cold fusion" why should running hotter make it better?  In
the limit, it would seem, this indicates that we should forget
cold fusion and investigate hot fusion instead.

Of course the continuing problem is that these experiments
cannot be designed rationally, because there is no informaiton
upon which to base an experimental design.  Consider just
how little has actually been learned about cold fusion from
the experiments conducted to date.  Does the size of the effect
scale with cathode surface area or with cathode volume?  Does
the output scale with current density and/or loading?  Is
there some sort of threashold in some operating parameter of
the system that explains the frequent failures?  What role
does the chemical composition of the electrolyte play in the
process?  Should it be "pure" or should it be "doped"?

So what we ultimately have here is yet another report of a
poorly designed and poorly executed experiment that finds
an "effect" that most likely does not exist.  The biggest
clue that these people are clueless is the fact that the
signal does not go away when they push the off button.
Duh!

Dick Blue

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 01:40:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA05323;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:35:29 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:35:29 -0700
Message-ID: <002d01bdaa4a$e4fc8c60$aab4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>, <rl_brodzinski@pnl.gov>
Subject: Neutron-Proton Ratio, Neutron Surplus, & WIMPs?
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:31:21 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"_r1pd1.0.5J1.Gzoer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20360
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

The Neutron-Proton Ratio: (A-Z)/Z and the
Proton Surplus: A-2Z implies that fission
of a nucleus Might yield "groups" of bound and
charged neutrons-protons and uncharged groups
of neutrons ie., WIMPs, that may be missed
in fission reactors.

For example:

Isotope    (A-Z)/Z       A-2Z

2He4         1            0

3Li7         1.33         1

5B10         1            0

6C12         1            0

8O16         1            0

26Fe56       1.15         4

46Pd106      1.3          14

82Pb207      1.52         43

90Th232      1.577        52

92U238       1.587        54

Makes for fun number crunching.   :-)

Regards,    Frederick          

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 01:44:45 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA06186;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:41:13 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:41:13 -0700
Message-ID: <003401bdaa4b$b05a02c0$aab4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>, <rl_brodzinski@pnl.gov>
Subject: Re: Neutron-Proton Ratio, Neutron Surplus, & WIMPs? OOPS
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:37:43 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"c3TB13.0.ZW1.e2per" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20361
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick J Sparber <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: Vortex-l <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: George <gsparb juno.com>; rl_brodzinski@pnl.gov <rl_brodzinski@pnl.gov>
Date: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 2:37 AM
Subject: Neutron-Proton Ratio, Neutron Surplus, & WIMPs?


>To: Vortex
>
>The Neutron-Proton Ratio: (A-Z)/Z and the
>Neutron Surplus: A-2Z implies that fission
>of a nucleus Might yield "groups" of bound and
>charged neutrons-protons and uncharged groups
>of neutrons ie., WIMPs, that may be missed
>in fission reactors.
>
>For example:
>
>Isotope    (A-Z)/Z       A-2Z (Neutron Surplus)
>
>2He4         1            0
>
>3Li7         1.33         1
>
>5B10         1            0
>
>6C12         1            0
>
>8O16         1            0
>
>26Fe56       1.15         4
>
>46Pd106      1.3          14
>
>82Pb207      1.52         43
>
>90Th232      1.577        52
>
>92U238       1.587        54
>
>Makes for fun number crunching.   :-)
>
>Regards,    Frederick          
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 03:59:50 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA16909;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 03:55:13 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 03:55:13 -0700
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 05:54:51 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <199807081054.FAA20363 dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com>
From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki)
Subject: Minato Demonstrations 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Resent-Message-ID: <"0H26R.0.284.G0rer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20362
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

July 8, 1998

'Gene wrote,

>The printed literature, which I received in a Fedex packet from 
?Vermillion states that the device can put out 500 watts (maximum) with 
>an input of 34 watts.

I thought there was a webpage on the Minato Engine. There is.

The webpage dealing with the Minato Engine has an 'update' of Japan's 
"Energy Expo 98" held around early part of '98. The report dated March 
4, 1998, it talks of a tabletop unit with 48 watts in 550 watts out. 

ermillion's literature shows an improvement of the output  which 
equated to the "Expo" report, would be 706 watts out for 48 in, a 28% 
increase in about 4 months!  
There was another, four unmetered connected large units that could 
power 30 homes (claimed).

Mino's demo was covered by the attending public and several media 
groups like CNN and NHK it sez on Michael Randalls report. Bob 
Vermillion is said to have taken videos of the event. Perhaps 'Gene can 
get a copy from Tri-Cosmos Development.

The update site: <http://keelynet.com/gravity/curtid3.htm>

-ak-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 04:56:59 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA22012;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 04:52:03 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 04:52:03 -0700
Message-Id: <199807081149.HAA07450 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Blue: Miles: experiment trumps theory? 7.3.98
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 98 07:56:12 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"mlF_b3.0.sN5.Yrrer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20363
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>Subject: Re: Britz: Miles rebuttal in J Phy Chem (4.30.98) : Murray:
>Jones, Shkedi recombination 6.29.98
>  Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:20:18 -0400 (EDT)
>  From: "Richard A Blue" <blue pilot.msu.edu>
>    To: rmforall earthlink.net
>
>The assertion made, it seems, by Mel Miles in his rebuttal(s)
>that experimental evidence is "trumps" over any theoretical
>considerations is one of the questionable ideas that continues
>to plague the cold fusion debate.
>
>In the absence of some well understood "theory" as to the
>process being observed and the mechanisms by which evidence
>is made observable, Mel Miles has no experiment.

Rich Murray is cross-posting Infinite Crapola -- Again:

Why do we need this continuing stream of TOTAL GARBAGE from this IDIOT 
Dick Blue, who continues to assert -- in contradiction to the entire 
history of science -- that  theory can be used to deny experimental 
results?

I would ask Mr. Murray to stop this. Furthermore, please STOP cross 
posting my Vortex submissions (including this one) to that CESSPOOL of 
ignorance known as SPF or FUSION DIGEST!! I will post there when and as I 
see fit, such as when I occasionally slap down little government 
money-sucking parasites like Teresa Tutt of the MIT PFC.


Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302

	Phone: 603-228-4516
	Fax:   603-224-5975
        editor infinite-energy.com

		      http://www.infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 06:54:27 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA15345;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:51:02 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:51:02 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:39:40 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Blue: Miles: experiment trumps theor
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807080942_MC2-5272-C980 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"ubOhS1.0.dl3.3bter" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20364
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

As Gene indecorously put it, this stuff is TOTAL GARBAGE from an IDIOT. I do
not understand why Murray feels compelled to post it here, but I know how to
operate the delete button, so it does not bother me much. Let me remind Murray
once again that Dick Blue is welcome to publish here, as long as he follows
the rules which are about as liberal and light as one could wish for. Blue
chooses not to participate here, so I think we should leave him out.

Let me give two examples of why Gene and I call this stuff garbage. Blue
wrote:

     [Miles] assumes much about the chemistry and thermodynamics of the
     electrolysis and calorimetry, and provides no experimental evidence to
     justify his many assumptions.  As but one small example, he asserts that
     his particular cell geometry assures that bubbles induce sufficient
     radial and axial mixing.  Is that based on experimental evidence?

Yes, it is. Miles performed many calibration runs and null runs. Runs which
were made years apart using the same cells produced astonishingly close
results. This is described in detail in all of his papers, which Blue and
Murray have obviously not read.


     In the context of the Pons and Fleischman brand of cold fusion I presume
     "heat after death" means that cold fusion continues to generate
     significant quantities of heat after the power input switch is thrown to
     the off position.  But, just like heat generated while there is
     electrolysis occurring, the observed heat does not have to be of nuclear
     origin.  In fact there is good reason to believe that some heat will
     indeed be generated after the cell is turned off due to chemical
     processes.  I know of no example where anyone has offered any evidence
     to support a claim that a nuclear reaction process accounts for any of
     the "heat after death."

This claim has been made by the skeptics countless times, and rebutted
countless times. The message never sinks in. In some cases, the energy and
power produced in heat after death events has been a million times greater
than the potential chemical energy and power from the cell. Here is an extract
of the Morrison versus Fleischmann, which should have ended this debate. It
disproved all of the claims made by Morrison, Blue and others. Morrison, at
least, had the sense to shut up. He no longer discusses technical issues,
confining himself solely to attacks on the character, motivation and
reputations of the researchers. Blue did not understand Fleischmann's
response, so he continues to parrot these objections. (I am sure Blue got the
response because I sent it to him. I doubt he read it.) Here is the relevant
portion of the Morrison versus Fleischmann debate.

Morrison:

     There are several major problems with this calculation [of "stage 3,"
     the boil off event.]

     First is that the "cigarette lighter effect" has been forgotten. In the
     last century it was difficult to make reliable matches to light
     cigarettes. A reliable smokeless lighter was invented which consisted of
     a rod of palladium into which hydrogen had been introduced under
     pressure. This caused the lattice of the palladium to expand and thus
     stored energy. To light a cigarette, the top of the rod was uncovered;
     some hydrogen escaped releasing some of the stress and thus releasing
     energy which resulted in a small rise in temperature of the end of the
     rod. Palladium is a catalyst of hydrogen and oxygen which burn to give
     water plus energy. The palladium now slightly heated, catalyzes the
     escaping hydrogen and the oxygen of the air and the resulting heat of
     combustion which is mainly deposited on the surface of the rod, raises
     its temperature. This temperature rise releases more hydrogen which is
     catalyzed by the still more efficient hot palladium, and so on until the
     tip of the rod is so hot that the cigarette can be lit. The reliability
     of this system is high.

     In the Fleischmann and Pons paper, it is noted as a further
     demonstration result, that "following the boiling to dryness and the
     open-circuiting of the cells, the cells nevertheless remain at high
     temperature for prolonged periods of time (fig.11); furthermore the
     Kel-F supports of the electrodes at the base of the cells melt so that
     the local temperature  must exceed 300 C." This dramatic effect cannot
     be explained by Fleischmann and Pons as being due to electrolysis since
     there is no liquid and  no electrolysis. However it is exactly what
     would be expected with the "cigarette lighter effect" where the hot
     palladium rod continues to catalyze  the interaction of the hydrogen
     which is slowly escaping from the rod, with oxygen from the air.

Fleischmann's response:

     . . . Douglas Morrison once again introduces the question of the effect
     of a putative catalytic recombination of oxygen and deuterium
     (notwithstanding the fact that this has repeatedly been shown to be
     absent).  We refer to this question in the next section; here we note
     that the maximum conceivable total rate of heat generation (~ 5mW for
     the electrode dimensions used) will be reduced because intense D2
     evolution and D20 evaporation degasses the oxygen from the solution in
     the vicinity of the cathode; furthermore, D2 cannot be oxidised at the
     oxide coated Pt-anode.  We note furthermore that the maximum localised
     effect will be observed when the density of the putative "hot spots"
     will be 1/delta^2 where delta is the thickness of the boundary layer. 
     This gives us a maximum localised rate of heating of ~ 6nW.  The effects
     of such localised hot spots will be negligible because the flow of heat
     in the metal (and the solution) is governed by Laplace's Equation (here
     Fourier's Law).  The spherical symmetry of the field ensures that the
     temperature perturbations are eliminated (compare the elimination of the
     electrical contact resistance of two plates touching at a small number
     of points).

     We believe that the onus is on Douglas Morrison to devise models which
     would have to be taken seriously and which are capable of being
     subjected to quantitative analysis. Statements of the kind which he has
     made belong to the category of "arm waving".

     . . .

     With respect to his own quotation Douglas Morrison goes on to say: "No
     explanation is given and fig 10 is marked 'cell remains hot, excess heat
     unknown'".  The reason why we refrained from speculation about the
     phenomena at this stage of the work is precisely because explanations
     are just that: speculations.  Much further work is required before the
     effects referred to can be explained in a quantitative fashion.  Douglas
     Morrison has no such inhibitions, we believe mainly because in the
     lengthy section Stage 5 Effects he wishes to disinter "the cigarette
     lighter effect".  This phenomenon (the combustion of hydrogen stored in
     palladium when this is exposed to the atmosphere) was first proposed by
     Kreysa et al [8] to explain one of our early observations:  the
     vapourisation of a large quantity of D2O (~ 500ml) by a 1cm cube
     palladium cathode followed by the melting of the cathode and parts of
     the cell components and destruction of a section of the fume cupboard
     housing the experiment [9].  Douglas Morrison (in common with other
     critics of "Cold Fusion") is much attached to such "Chemical
     Explanations" of the  "Cold Fusion" phenomena.  As this particular
     explanation has been raised by Douglas Morrison, we examine it here.

     In the first place we note that the explanation of Kreysa et al [8]
     could not possibly have applied to the experiment in question:  the
     vapourisation of the D2O alone would have required ~1.1MJ of energy
     whereas the combustion of all the D in the palladium would at most have
     produced ~ 650J (assuming that the D/Pd ratio had reached ~1 in the
     cathode), a discrepancy of a factor of ~ 1700.  In the second place, the
     timescale of the explanation is impossible: the diffusional relaxation
     time is ~ 29 days whereas the phenomenon took at most ~ 6 hours (we have
     based this diffusional relaxation time on the value of the diffusion
     coefficient in the alpha-phase; the processes of phase transformation
     coupled to diffusion are much slower in the fully formed Pd-D system
     with a corresponding increase of the diffusional relaxation time for the
     removal of D from the lattice). Thirdly, Kreysa et al [8] confused the
     notion of power (Watts) with that of energy (Joules) which is again an
     error which has been promulgated by critics seeking "Chemical
     Explanations" of "Cold Fusion".  Thus Douglas Morrison reiterates the
     notion of heat flow, no doubt in order to seek an explanation of the
     high levels of excess enthalpy during Stage 4 of the experiments. We
     observe that at a heat flow of 144.5W (corresponding to the rate of
     excess enthalpy generation in the experiment discussed in our paper [2]
     the total combustion of all the D in the cathode would be completed in ~
     4.5s, not the 600s of the duration of this stage.  Needless to say, the
     D in the lattice could not reach the surface in that time (the
     diffusional relaxation time is ~ 10^5s) while the rate of diffusion of
     oxygen through the boundary layer could lead at most to a rate of
     generation of excess enthalpy of ~ 5mW.

I would recommend to Rich Murray that he read this debate, but I would be
wasting my time. I make that recommendation instead to people who are
sincerely interested in learning about cold fusion, as opposed to fruitcakes
and troublemakers who wish to substitute innumerate nonsense for quantitative
scientific debate.

Dick Blue is making exactly the same claims he made nine years ago. He has
never read the literature, he does not understand the issues. Neither has Rich
Murray, because he would refrain from posting this kind of nonsense if he had.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 07:41:41 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA21280;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:38:23 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:38:23 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980708103456.00c9eaa0 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 10:34:56 -0400
To: rmforall earthlink.net
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Thomas: 20 Kev reactions in Be in SEM? 7.6.98
Cc: Vortex-L eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <35A2B46C.59BE earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"1ly51.0.QC5.THuer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20365
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>  I have often wondered about that as a possibility in regards to light
>elements in the SEM. If one ignores the topography and examines the
>background "noise" from Be, for example you can often see large spikes that
>are certainly not electrons, striking the scintillator. We just assumed they
>were negative ions. The background noise from Be is always remarkable with a
>20KEV beam when compared to Wo, for example.

   Be9 can decay into a neutron and two alphas (He4), if given enough
energy.  This can either occur by absorbing a gamma, or by giving up the
neutron to something that wants it more.  Incidently, one such reaction is
p + Be9 --> d + Be8, Be8 --> 2 He4.  Yes, that produces net energy, but the
reaction rate is low enough to make it totally impractical as an energy
source.  (But it is much better than the pep reaction if you need to make
deuterium...)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 08:50:19 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA30699;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:46:07 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:46:07 -0700
Message-ID: <19980708154559.16824.rocketmail send101.yahoomail.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:45:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: michael randall <mrand910 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Update on Minato Demonstrations - 7/7/98
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"0XSvo2.0.bV7.-Gver" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20366
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Good report Gene!  Anyone interested in obtaining a license to
manufacture or have an energy application requirement is welcomed to
see the three-day demonstration or contact Bob Vermillion.  

The "bicycle wheel" unit will also be shown at this event and the
planned Los Angeles unit is still in the works.  Their current
interests are in the development and implementation of this
breakthrough energy technology into the marketplace.

Regards,   Michael   


---"E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com> wrote:
>
> Vortexians: 
> 
> I spoke to Bob Vermillion of Tri-Cosmos Development (Los Angeles, CA  
> 310-284-3250 or fax 310-284-3260) today, just before he left for the 
> three-day demonstrations of the Minato  magnetic motor being held in 
> Mexico City, Mexico on July 8, 9, 10th.
> 
> Three (3) Minato Motors (MM), covered by US patents  5,594,289 (Jan
14, 
> 1997) and (4,751,486 June 14, 1988), have been brought over from
Japan. 
<....>
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 08:51:59 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA30902;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:46:49 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:46:49 -0700
Message-ID: <19980708152507.13692.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:25:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: michael randall <mrand910 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Minato Demonstrations 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"XMVQM3.0.dY7.dHver" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20367
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

---Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> July 8, 1998
> 
> 'Gene wrote,
> 
> >The printed literature, which I received in a Fedex packet from 
> ?Vermillion states that the device can put out 500 watts (maximum)
with 
> >an input of 34 watts.
> 
> I thought there was a webpage on the Minato Engine. There is.
> 
> The webpage dealing with the Minato Engine has an 'update' of Japan's 
> "Energy Expo 98" held around early part of '98. The report dated
March 
> 4, 1998, it talks of a tabletop unit with 48 watts in 550 watts out. 
> 
> ermillion's literature shows an improvement of the output  which 
> equated to the "Expo" report, would be 706 watts out for 48 in, a 28% 
> increase in about 4 months!  
> There was another, four unmetered connected large units that could 
> power 30 homes (claimed).
>
> Mino's demo was covered by the attending public and several media 
> groups like CNN and NHK it sez on Michael Randalls report. Bob 
> Vermillion is said to have taken videos of the event. Perhaps 'Gene
can 
> get a copy from Tri-Cosmos Development.

Yes, the 20 min. video showed the large unit spinning at low rpm (est.
200rpm) and it looked easy enough to spin at a higher rpm for megawatt
electricity utility power applications.  The rotor was not enclosed in
any housing and looked mainly to show how the technology works.  The
actual production units would most likely be enclosed in a generator
housing.  From a manufacturing/applications systems standpoint it
looks to be a very simple design for mass production and low
maintenance requirements. 
 
> The update site: <http://keelynet.com/gravity/curtid3.htm>
> 
> -ak-
> 
Regards,  Michael Randall 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 09:00:59 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA00894;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:54:22 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:54:22 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:46:53 -0700
Message-Id: <199807081546.IAA17249 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Neutron-Proton Ratio, Neutron Surplus, & WIMPs? OOPS
Resent-Message-ID: <"9jBfo2.0.tD.iOver" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20368
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


If you go through the isotopes, you will notice that stable isotopes tend to
have even numbers of neutrons.  The reason is because neutrons aren't really
"neutral".  They are just neutral relative to positive and negatively
charged particles.  

When you work with wave solitonic structures, you are forced into adopting
the notion that the phase angle of the resonances ARE, "charge".  But when
you do this you have 0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees phase angles to work with
in a quadrature system, or 0, and 180 degrees in a dual phase system.  And
if you try for a three component systen you get 0, 120, and 240.  Those
phase angles do not attract and repulse in our normal manner.  Instead, all
of those resonances would attract one another but at a reduced intensity as
compared to phase opposition, ie 0 and 180.

The second structure with just two phase angles doesn't allow neutral
charges.  So like it or not, I am stuck working with a quadrature system as
it is the least complicated system that matches what we observe.  

When working with it, it becomes apparent that neutrons are indeed charged
relative to one another, but they are neutral relative to phase orthogonal
resonances, ie electron, positron, proton, etc.  90 and 270 degree neutrons
will attract, and 90 and 90 degree neutrons will repulse, and 270 and 270
degree neutrons will repulse.

Note:  A neutron beam shot through a changing magnetic field will split into
two beams.  ie, you can separate out the 90 and 270 degree resonances.  But
this also shows something important that isn't as simple as their being
stricly confined in 90 or 270 degree resonance phase angles.  If you run the
individual beams through another  changing magnetic field at a different
orientation, you can split the beam again.  Implying that the neutrons
either rotated phase angles naturally via interaction with spacetime wave
energy, or, they interacted with neutrinos that are abundant everywhere.  I
am beginning to think it is the latter.  But we have no recourse to analyse
this except cosmological considerations, and we don't have cosmology nailed
down well enough to do this.

So in a nucleus, you tend to have even numbers of neutrons because if you
didn't, there would be a net "neutral current" charge at one of the phase
angles and you would "attract" neutrinos to slam into one of the excess
neutrons and convert it into a proton (weak interaction).

If you go through the chart, you will find that even numbers of neutrons in
nuclei make up the majority of the mass percentages in individual isotopes. 

neutrinos also have to have the same resonance phase angle possibilities.  

Thus, excess neutral charge at 90 or 270 degree phase angle allows the
nucleus to be almost neutral in charge.  

Each nucleon is composed of 3 quarks, and each quark is composed of 9 muon
resonances.  Each muonic resonance is at one of the following phase angles,
0, 90, 180, or 270.  You must balance out the phase angle momentum
intensities, and so for each nucleon you wind up with 2 muons at each phase
angle, and the 9th one at 0, 90, or 270 degrees phase angle, and the
electron is the final wave resonance that provides the balancing wave energy
at 180 degrees phase angle.

So each nucleus is balanced and has zero *net* phase angle momenta if it is
balanced.  Odd neutron nuclei have a net neutral current charge at either 90
or 270 degrees.  So it may be that those atoms actually bind a neutrino in
orbit like an electron.  Otherwise, they always have an excess neutral
current charge and so you would need to get them next to other nuclei to
balance out the net charge. 

Ross Tessien



>>The Neutron-Proton Ratio: (A-Z)/Z and the
>>Neutron Surplus: A-2Z implies that fission
>>of a nucleus Might yield "groups" of bound and
>>charged neutrons-protons and uncharged groups
>>of neutrons ie., WIMPs, that may be missed
>>in fission reactors.
>>
>>For example:
>>
>>Isotope    (A-Z)/Z       A-2Z (Neutron Surplus)
>>
>>2He4         1            0
>>
>>3Li7         1.33         1
>>
>>5B10         1            0
>>
>>6C12         1            0
>>
>>8O16         1            0
>>
>>26Fe56       1.15         4
>>
>>46Pd106      1.3          14
>>
>>82Pb207      1.52         43
>>
>>90Th232      1.577        52
>>
>>92U238       1.587        54

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 09:35:58 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17438;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:31:46 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:31:46 -0700
Message-ID: <19980708161353.3729.rocketmail send1c.yahoomail.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:13:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: James Smith <smithja_82 yahoo.com>
Subject: the Minato
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"3Thi_3.0.NG4.nxver" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20369
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 








---Akira Kawasaki  wrote:

> The webpage dealing with the Minato Engine has an 'update' of Japan's 
> "Energy Expo 98" held around early part of '98. The report dated
March 
> 4, 1998, it talks of a tabletop unit with 48 watts in 550 watts out. 
> 
> ermillion's literature shows an improvement of the output  which 
> equated to the "Expo" report, would be 706 watts out for 48 in, a 28% 
> increase in about 4 months!  
> There was another, four unmetered connected large units that could 
> power 30 homes (claimed).

This seems to say that it is making energy.  How?
Hasn't it been stated that energy can only be transformed?  And if it
is transforming energy from the permanent magnets, shouldn't it take
too much energy away after a while, so that the magnets would no
longer work?  I know I'm new here, but could someone please explain
the physics of this thing to me?

James Smith 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 10:03:26 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27831;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:56:45 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:56:45 -0700
Message-ID: <008201bdaa90$e38e2c80$aab4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Neutron-Proton Ratio, Neutron Surplus, & WIMPs? OOPS
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:52:21 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"BdFfE2.0.Oo6.AJwer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20370
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: Neutron-Proton Ratio, Neutron Surplus, & WIMPs? OOPS

Ross Tessien wrote:


>
>If you go through the isotopes, you will notice that stable isotopes tend
to
>have even numbers of neutrons.  The reason is because neutrons aren't
really
>"neutral".  They are just neutral relative to positive and negatively
>charged particles.

Sounds plausible.
>
>When you work with wave solitonic structures, you are forced into adopting
>the notion that the phase angle of the resonances ARE, "charge".

Agreed on the phase angle idea.

>But when
>you do this you have 0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees phase angles to work with
>in a quadrature system, or 0, and 180 degrees in a dual phase system.

Electrons-Positrons or +/- charge "quarks" y = sin x
Neutrinos-Antineutrinos, y = cos x thus they
act neutral toward Electrons-Positrons but are
180 degrees out of phase wrt each other.


>And
>if you try for a three component system you get 0, 120, and 240.  Those
>phase angles do not attract and repulse in our normal manner.  Instead, all
>of those resonances would attract one another but at a reduced intensity as
>compared to phase opposition, ie 0 and 180.

I don't buy this.
>
>The second structure with just two phase angles doesn't allow neutral
>charges.  So like it or not, I am stuck working with a quadrature system as
>it is the least complicated system that matches what we observe.

Why try to over-complicate the Universe?
>
>When working with it, it becomes apparent that neutrons are indeed charged
>relative to one another,
>
Don't think so. THERE IS NO DINEUTRON 0-n2 they are "unbound" by 70 kev, but
obviously
they bind to a Proton to form DEUTERIUM, but
MAY BIND in a Triad 0-n3, and on up to 0-nX.
>
>Note:  A neutron beam shot through a changing magnetic field will split
into
>two beams.  ie, you can separate out the 90 and 270 degree resonances.

So will neutral molecular beams, This is a Nuclear Magnetic Moment effect.
>
>Each nucleon is composed of 3 quarks,

Nope, there are 5A - 2Z "quarks" in each nucleon:

2A  "up" or (+)

2A - Z  "down" or (-)

A - Z  neutrinos, thus for a proton, 1H1 = 3 quarks.

For a neutron,0-n1 = 5  quarks. Obviously in a neutron decay an electron and
neutrino were expelled, thus 5 minus 2 equals 3, doesn't it?

Regards,    Frederick

>
>Ross Tessien
>




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 10:06:29 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29470;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:59:01 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:59:01 -0700
Message-ID: <19980708165852.7229.rocketmail send101.yahoomail.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:58:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: the Minato
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"-8hry.0.NC7.KLwer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20371
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


If someone could really explain the physics of a magnetic FE device,
then we could all build one!  There are lots of theories out there on
magnetic based OU/FE devices, but like you stated, modern physics
contridicts their operation.  Take all the magnetic OU theories you
come across with a grain of salt.  If someone has a magnetic device
that actually is OU, then physics will be re-written [or if you
believe in conspiracies, the invention will be suppresed], and current
theories are flawed.  

I am personally neutral on the magnetic OU thing, but it doesn't keep
me from expirimenting with different designs.



---James Smith <smithja_82 yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> This seems to say that it is making energy.  How?
> Hasn't it been stated that energy can only be transformed?  And if it
> is transforming energy from the permanent magnets, shouldn't it take
> too much energy away after a while, so that the magnets would no
> longer work?  I know I'm new here, but could someone please explain
> the physics of this thing to me?
> 
> James Smith 
> 

==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 10:15:43 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00148;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:07:39 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:07:39 -0700
Message-Id: <35A3A753.63607544 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 20:07:31 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: the Minato
References: <19980708161353.3729.rocketmail send1c.yahoomail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"hOa2Z2.0.52.PTwer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20373
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

James Smith wrote:
> 
> ---Akira Kawasaki  wrote:
[snip]

> This seems to say that it is making energy.  How?

We dont know really actually.

> Hasn't it been stated that energy can only be transformed?  And if it
> is transforming energy from the permanent magnets, shouldn't it take
> too much energy away after a while, so that the magnets would no
> longer work?  I know I'm new here, but could someone please explain
> the physics of this thing to me?

It is not possible to demagnetize PM of high permeability by  field strength not more than their own. Even it is possible, the magnetic of a PM is not much more than few joules. So this scheme is not realistic to extract usable energy. If we assume there 

is an energy source unknown to the current physics, dynamics of magnetic fields and structure of magnets  could convert this source to mechanical work, many hypothesis can be introduced. I think such conversion should always some side effect which can be 

detected without too much lab effort. What we need simply is the phenomenon is real and accessible.

Regards,

hamdi ucar
> 
> James Smith
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 10:25:41 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08558;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:05:40 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:05:40 -0700 (PDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:03:10 +0100 (BST)
From: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall city.ac.uk>
X-Sender: remi exeter
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Second law theory article online !
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.980708180111.16138C-100000 exeter>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"MqW5d1.0.X52.WRwer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20372
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Vortex,

I consider the analysis bold and understand where he is headed using
ensemble and variational mechanics - it is the economy and generality of
the approach.

I don't claim to be fully mathematically adept at variational mechanics. I
know that by using the Hamiltonian (total energy of system) which is the
total 'heat' of the system, he seeks to obtain an expression in T and s.

The trouble is, that the analysis has expressed something of a truism by
leaving out kinetic effects. He has assumed the equilibrium probability
distribution in the ensemble calculation and eventually achieved the
Boltzmann relation. This is not to be unexpected.

He needs to bring back the element of time to show how H evolves by means
of a change in probability densities. He could associate a certain non
eqm. probab. at the start with 'high grade' energy (high probab. of high
potential and ke.) and show how this evolves to the equilibrium
distribution. This change of H via prob. distbs would be the increase in
entropy. But this can't be new.

How this equilbrium distribution would right itself to the high grade
energy expression at the start of the system's evolution without some
mechanism is not explicit in the analysis. H is constant, the system is
closed. Outside influence would be 'cheating'. Can it be shown that the
system could contain some mechanism to right itself? Some arrangement of
matter, fields to sort?
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 10:50:20 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12990;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:40:23 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:40:23 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980708115933.00cafc80 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 11:59:33 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Minato Demonstrations 
In-Reply-To: <199807081054.FAA20363 dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"4IBbv.0.pA3.5ywer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20374
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

We received an invitation to the Mexico City demonstrations.

I responded by requesting a copy of the testing procedure and data which
produced the "34 watts in - 500 watts out" claim.  There was no reply to
this request.  Perhaps they were too busy getting ready for the trip.

I was not impressed by this statement in their brochure, "As the rotations
per minute (rpm's) increase, the electrical consumption to the
elecromagnetic stator decreases,  This phenomenon is in direct conflict
with accepted laws of physics and is achieved through the repelling
magnetic fields."

First, it is normal for the electrical consumption of an motor to decrease
as the rpm increases.  The so-called "back emf" causes this to occur.

Second, "repelling magnetic fields" are completely described by the
accepted laws of physics....makes you wonder if the author of the statement
really knows anything about them.

Third, the whole affair reminds me of a real estate sales promotion.  Why
in the world would Minato resort to such a thing if his generator really
worked as claimed?

We decided not to make the trip.  I doubt we will regret this
decision...but, of course, I hope that we do...



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 11:08:37 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12897;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:02:24 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:02:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199807081759.MAA01553 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Minato Demonstrations
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980708115933.00cafc80 mail.eden.com> from Scott Little at "Jul 8, 98 11:59:33 am"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:59:51 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ioDR-.0.Q93.jGxer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20375
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Scott Little wrote:
> First, it is normal for the electrical consumption of an motor to decrease
> as the rpm increases.  The so-called "back emf" causes this to occur.

That's true while the motor is still reving up to steady state speed.
However, beyond that, it takes more electrical energy to speed it up.


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 11:32:44 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14995;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:27:41 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:27:41 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980708132122.00cb1f98 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 13:21:22 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Minato Demonstrations
In-Reply-To: <199807081759.MAA01553 mirage.skypoint.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.19980708115933.00cafc80 mail.eden.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"MQQJh1.0.Cg3.Rexer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20376
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 12:59 7/8/98 -0500, John Logajan wrote:

>That's true while the motor is still reving up to steady state speed.
>However, beyond that, it takes more electrical energy to speed it up.

Right. I should have quoted more of the brochure...it looks to me like they
are talking about the "still revving up" part...

"The machine is started with an electromagnetic stator.  When activated,
the magnetic fields repel creating rotation of the rotor. As the rotations
per minute (rpm's) increase, the electrical consumption to the
elecromagnetic stator decreases,  This phenomenon is in direct conflict
with accepted laws of physics and is achieved through the repelling
magnetic fields."



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 11:40:28 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA31192;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:35:11 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:35:11 -0700
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <284a5d50.35a3bba4 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:34:11 EDT
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Minato motor
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38
Resent-Message-ID: <"JgS3p3.0.Id7.Ulxer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20377
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

little writes
...................................
Third, the whole affair reminds me of a real estate sales promotion.  Why
in the world would Minato resort to such a thing if his generator really
worked as claimed?
........................................
I've seen this before.  Until they get the thing running by itself, which
should be a no brainer with electrical power out, I doubt it works.

The device probably generates some sort of high frequency output.  I've read
RF with regular meters in the past.  The high frequency bypasses the
calibration resistors making the meters read high..
.........................................................

I been here before, Reed Huish has been here before, Scott Little has been
here before..let's see the thing run by itself before we invest any time and
effort on it.,

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 11:59:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03460;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:55:46 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:55:46 -0700
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:55:48 -0700
Message-Id: <199807081855.LAA10332 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Neutron-Proton Ratio, Neutron Surplus, & WIMPs? OOPS
Resent-Message-ID: <"F9vGZ.0.ur.n2yer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20378
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



>
>>And
>>if you try for a three component system you get 0, 120, and 240.  Those
>>phase angles do not attract and repulse in our normal manner.  Instead, all
>>of those resonances would attract one another but at a reduced intensity as
>>compared to phase opposition, ie 0 and 180.
>
>I don't buy this.

Any phase angle relation that is less than 90 degrees, results in repulsion.
Any phase angle relation between two resonances that is greater than 90
degrees and less than 270 degrees results in "attraction".  So 120 degrees
is past 90, and you will get an attraction.  But it won't be as intense as a
180 degree resonance interaction assuming that both phase situations have
resonances of the same inherent intensity.

See the work by Kelvin on this.

>>
>>The second structure with just two phase angles doesn't allow neutral
>>charges.  So like it or not, I am stuck working with a quadrature system as
>>it is the least complicated system that matches what we observe.
>
>Why try to over-complicate the Universe?

Make it as simple as possible, but no simpler.  You cannot have neutral
particles if you don't have quadrature.  Quadrature is the least complex
structure possible.

>>
>>When working with it, it becomes apparent that neutrons are indeed charged
>>relative to one another,
>>
>Don't think so. THERE IS NO DINEUTRON 0-n2 they are "unbound" by 70 kev, but
>obviously
>they bind to a Proton to form DEUTERIUM, but
>MAY BIND in a Triad 0-n3, and on up to 0-nX.

First of all, we might not even be able to know if di neutrons existed
because the would not interact with the matter in our devices trying to
measure them.  Second, intense accelerator reactions would likely not create
them (too hot and they could fly apart).  But most importantly, you must
consider the overall spin waveforms in 4D.  When you do this, those two
particles would interact like a proton and an anti proton, to annihilate one
another.  

That is most likely why you don't see di neutrons.  Neither do you see 
"proton- anti protonium".  The reason you need protons in there between the
neutrons is so that you set up a sort of rotational interaction rather than
a straight charge interaction.  

>>
>>Note:  A neutron beam shot through a changing magnetic field will split
>into
>>two beams.  ie, you can separate out the 90 and 270 degree resonances.
>
>So will neutral molecular beams, This is a Nuclear Magnetic Moment effect.
>>
>>Each nucleon is composed of 3 quarks,
>
>Nope, there are 5A - 2Z "quarks" in each nucleon:
>
>2A  "up" or (+)
>
>2A - Z  "down" or (-)
>
>A - Z  neutrinos, thus for a proton, 1H1 = 3 quarks.
>
>For a neutron,0-n1 = 5  quarks. Obviously in a neutron decay an electron and
>neutrino were expelled, thus 5 minus 2 equals 3, doesn't it?
>Regards,    Frederick


I don't think that this is what is going on.  Note, it is an "anti neutrino"
that is expelled, not a neutrino.  I think they simply have the neutrino on
the wrong side of the equation.  

    n + neutrino -->  p + e

3 quarks plus one electron family resonance at 90 or 270  --> 3 quarks plus e

Same number of "particles" on each side of the reaction.

Also, if the neutron is attracting the neutrino, then their phase angles are
in opposition, ie 90 and 270 degrees.  And then on the other side of the
equation, you have 0 for the proton and 180 for the electron.  Again, the
phase angle momentum is balanced on both sides of the equation.

Now look at what they say happens:

   n  -- > p + e + anti neutrino

You begin with 3 quarks, and you end up with 3 quarks plus an electron plus
an anti neutrino.  So you wound up with two extra particles on the right
that you did not have on the left side.  They explain this away by claiming
that by calling the neutrino "anti particle", this cancels out the electron
being just a plain old, "particle".  

I find that when I try to match up this wave mechanical model to the present
particle model, there are some times when the term "anti" has been used in a
reaction such that the only way to correlate them is to consider that anti
means, opposite charge.  such as proton and anti proton.

But then other times, the way they use the term leads to needing to consider
that anti means, "able to obliterate a particle", such as in neutrino and
anti neutrino where those objects are considered to be capable of cancelling
out the appearance of a particle such that the numbers of particles in the
equation balance, but no charge is supposed to be involved.

In the wave model, everything is pretty straight forward.  I do think there
is a phase angle rotation that takes place as particles are accelerated into
or out of a nucleus, and this is a bit confusing.  But over all, the phase
angle momentum conservation leads you to conserve particle numbers on both
sides of the equations.

To understand this model, you have to treat a quark as being composite, made
up of 3 muon resonances at 3 of the 4 possible phase angles.  So where you
read about quantum chromodynamics, and there are supposed to be 3 colors for
the color charges, you have to instead split the neutral phase angle color
into two colors to allow for 90 and 270 degrees phase angle resonances.

So you get 4 colors, not three.  But any given quark has just 3 colors, and
when you realize that phase opposition leads to a single *net* color for
each quark, ie a quark with 0, 90, and 180 degree phase muon resonances
would have the 0 and 180 degree phase angles cancel out and the net phase
angle momentum felt by objects far away would be, 90 degrees.  

So a quark and an individual muon, will seem like the same thing.  That is
why they think pions are composed of two quarks, a quark and an anti quark,
when they are really muon doublets.  Sort of like a double bubble form of
muon.  

You can form pions in this manner via the following combinations:

charged pions:
0, 90
0, 270
90, 180
180, 270

neutral pions:
0, 180
90, 270

The four groups above last longer because they are neutral relative to one
another.  The bottom two  forms have a very short lifetime as they spiral
into one another and annihilate into gammas or other particles of lower mass
such as in the electron family of resonances.

Ross Tessien




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 12:36:24 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15965;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:33:14 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:33:14 -0700
Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CC2 xch-cpc-02>
From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Minato Demonstrations 
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:05:09 -0700
X-Priority: 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"-Aem42.0.Nv3.wbyer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20379
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Aki
	The URL should say curtis, not curtid

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	aki ix.netcom.com[SMTP:aki@ix.netcom.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Wednesday, July 08, 1998 3:54 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Minato Demonstrations 
> 
> July 8, 1998
> 
> 'Gene wrote,
> 
> >The printed literature, which I received in a Fedex packet from 
> ?Vermillion states that the device can put out 500 watts (maximum)
> with 
> >an input of 34 watts.
> 
> I thought there was a webpage on the Minato Engine. There is.
> 
> The webpage dealing with the Minato Engine has an 'update' of Japan's 
> "Energy Expo 98" held around early part of '98. The report dated March
> 
> 4, 1998, it talks of a tabletop unit with 48 watts in 550 watts out. 
> 
> ermillion's literature shows an improvement of the output  which 
> equated to the "Expo" report, would be 706 watts out for 48 in, a 28% 
> increase in about 4 months!  
> There was another, four unmetered connected large units that could 
> power 30 homes (claimed).
> 
> Mino's demo was covered by the attending public and several media 
> groups like CNN and NHK it sez on Michael Randalls report. Bob 
> Vermillion is said to have taken videos of the event. Perhaps 'Gene
> can 
> get a copy from Tri-Cosmos Development.
> 
> The update site: <http://keelynet.com/gravity/curtid3.htm>
> 
> -ak-
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 12:38:51 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17003;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:36:04 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:36:04 -0700
Message-Id: <199807081933.PAA12264 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Minato Demonstrations 
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 98 15:40:08 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"bq0e_2.0.V94.Zeyer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20382
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Scott wrote:

>We decided not to make the trip.  I doubt we will regret this
>decision...but, of course, I hope that we do...

For the sake of us all I hope you regret it -- and I hope I regret it too 
for not going myself!

Best, Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 12:39:10 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16905;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:35:52 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:35:52 -0700
Message-Id: <199807081932.PAA12220 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Minato motor
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 98 15:39:56 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"cYVAy3.0.084.Meyer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20380
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Frank wrote:

>I been here before, Reed Huish has been here before, Scott Little has been
>here before..let's see the thing run by itself before we invest any time and
>effort on it.,

We'll, I'm glad Hal Fox will be going on behalf of us all. I hope he can 
see enough to make a conclusion about it one way or the other.

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 12:39:31 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16981;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:36:02 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:36:02 -0700
Message-Id: <199807081933.PAA12257 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Blue: Miles: experiment trumps theor
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 98 15:40:06 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"cNX1V1.0.A94.Yeyer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20381
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>Dick Blue is making exactly the same claims he made nine years ago. He has
>never read the literature, he does not understand the issues. Neither has 
>Rich
>Murray, because he would refrain from posting this kind of nonsense if he 
>had.
>
>- Jed

But more important than the detailed arguments Blue makes ad nauseam is 
the fact that Blue obviously does not understand "Sciecne 101" -- old 
*theories* DO NOT invalidate new experimental *data* that appear 
initially to contradict old theories. Either the old theories are not 
complete, they are  wrong, or they have not been applied well enough to 
cover new data. The new data might be wrong too (although in my view  
this is NOT true for the totality of cold fusion phenomena), but this is 
the only possibility that IDIOT Blue ever allows because of his precious 
"complete" knowledge of physics.


Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 13:05:06 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22177;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:58:21 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:58:21 -0700
Message-ID: <00d501bdaaaa$482b4740$aab4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Blue: Miles: experiment trumps theor
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:54:48 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"vz8Er1.0.QQ5.Tzyer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20383
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: E.F. Mallove <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: VORTEX <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: Blue: Miles: experiment trumps theor

Gene,

Is that "sciecne 101" or seance 101?    :-)

Regards,     Frederick

............................................................................
.................................


>>Dick Blue is making exactly the same claims he made nine years ago. He has
>>never read the literature, he does not understand the issues. Neither has
>>Rich
>>Murray, because he would refrain from posting this kind of nonsense if he
>>had.
>>
>>- Jed
>
>But more important than the detailed arguments Blue makes ad nauseam is
>the fact that Blue obviously does not understand "Sciecne 101" -- old
>*theories* DO NOT invalidate new experimental *data* that appear
>initially to contradict old theories. Either the old theories are not
>complete, they are  wrong, or they have not been applied well enough to
>cover new data. The new data might be wrong too (although in my view
>this is NOT true for the totality of cold fusion phenomena), but this is
>the only possibility that IDIOT Blue ever allows because of his precious
>"complete" knowledge of physics.
>
>
>Gene Mallove
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 13:35:24 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26520;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:19:13 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:19:13 -0700
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:15:02 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Minato Demonstrations
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807081618_MC2-528A-102B compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"9j-d23.0.BU6.0Hzer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20384
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

I have little hope for this Minato gadget. People new to this field, like
James Smith, should realize that hundreds of claims for magnetic and magic
electric motors have been made, but not a single one has ever been
successfully demonstrated in public or tested independently. Cold fusion was
widely replicated withing six months. Magnetic motor claims have been made for
hundreds of years but the machines have never been replicated or demonstrated,
to the best of my knowledge. People call Gene and I with new claims every few
weeks. At present, three people are lined up in the queue. They have promised
to bring one in or send us detailed information. As always, I remain open
minded and ready to examine any claim. I will not drive 50 miles to see a
gadget, as one inventor has been asking me to do, and I do not take his video
seriously because he did not disconnect the battery. Before he made the video
he assured me that he can disconnect it, and I told him that is the only way
I would be convinced it is worth investigating, and we went over this three
times, yet in the end he sent me a video showing a battery attached. I wonder
what goes through the minds of these crackpots. Do they think I do not notice
the battery, or I will suddenly change my mind?

Scott Little writes:

     Second, "repelling magnetic fields" are completely described by the
     accepted laws of physics....makes you wonder if the author of the
     statement really knows anything about them.

I expect the author does not know much physics, but perhaps this was written
for the general audience.


     Third, the whole affair reminds me of a real estate sales promotion.
     Why in the world would Minato resort to such a thing if his generator
     really worked as claimed?

It is inexplicable, but people with new inventions often do act this way. It
looks suspicious because flakes, liars and criminals behave this way, but so
do legitimate scientists suffering from the "Own Worst Enemy" syndrome. We
face a conundrum. You cannot tell whether the guy is a fraud or a
self-destructive fool. In the end it does not matter: he will die and his
ideas will die with him. Meyer, Papp, Brown (of Brown's gas) are among the
people we will never know about, although I strongly suspect Meyer was nothing
more than a fraud. Many . . . perhaps most CF scientists and companies act
this way, including some which I believe have legitimate technology. As I have
often pointed out, the Wrights acted this way. Historically many fine
inventions languished because of the Own Worst Enemy syndrome, or the
inventor's inept marketing, or his crazy ideas about business. Inventors often
want to control their customers. They want to dictate how and why the product
will be used. Often this control fetish is stronger than the inventors' greed.
"I do not care about money," he will say, "but I want to be sure my invention
is used for good, not evil" Or he wants the machine to be used exclusively by
socialists and not capitalists, or vice versa, or what-have-you. Some
scientists think they above venal concerns with filthy lucre (money, that is).
One CF scientist constantly complains that he has no resources, yet when I
offered to raise investment capital for him, he became furious and accused me
of trying to "exploit" him. The Correas expressed the fear that the human race
is "not ready" for their invention, an attitude I find deplorable.

I am afraid these people are beyond help, and their machines are a total loss.
Gene and I have been trying to help them for years. He plays good cop, I play
bad cop, but the hard core cases remain out of reach. I think many of these
people are insane.

Scott says: "We decided not to make the trip.  I doubt we will regret this
decision...but, of course, I hope that we do..." Not to worry! If the gadget
works it will eventually be demonstrated again, close to home. And if it does
not work you haven't missed anything.


Frank Znidarsic wrote:

     I been here before, Reed Huish has been here before, Scott Little has
     been here before..let's see the thing run by itself before we invest any
     time and effort on it.

Amen to that. I would say though, running by itself is not the only test we
will consider. If Minato would be willing to sell or lend demonstration kits
that we can look at in our own labs, with our own instruments, that will
suffice. We would be willing to test one, and if we (Gene & Co. at Bow) says
it works I am sure Scott Little or Frank Znidarsic would be willing to have a
follow-up look.

A robust electrical or miracle magnet machine should not be capable of
self-sustaining, but Mike Carrell explained to me recently that in some
circumstances, with an allegedly marginal effect, it is conceivable the
machine cannot be made self-sustaining, even if it is real. Minato claims a
huge input to output ratio, so he should be able to self sustain.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 13:40:08 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01074;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:37:22 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:37:22 -0700
Message-Id: <199807082034.QAA24850 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Robert Park, Nuclear Worm
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 98 16:41:28 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"GVWSy1.0.iG.1Yzer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20385
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Roebrt Park of the APS "eats its" again (see below) like an earthworm.... 
Note the not too subtle linkage of "fraud" with the  Patterson cell.

Gene Mallove

*******

June 26, 1998 What's new.

    2. NUCLEAR WASTE: A PROMISING SOLUTION IS DELAYED A FEW YEARS. 

 If you like worms, you've gotta love "California Red Superworms." They 
eat nuclear waste! Keep em as pets if you like, but Thomas Stanley 
Huntington's advice was to breed em and make millions selling them to 
federal nuclear waste repositories. Huntington offered to help people get 
started. At $125 per pound of worms, it was a steal -- or at least that's 
what the New Mexico attorney general's office decided. Huntington now 
faces up to 12 years on a fraud conviction. In spite of the setback to 
the nuclear-waste-eating-worm market, WN assures its readers that the 
superworms are every bit as effective as the Patterson Cell (WN 13 Jun 97

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 13:48:14 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04962;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:40:23 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:40:23 -0700
Message-Id: <199807082037.QAA25443 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Blue: Miles: experiment trumps theor
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 98 16:44:28 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"duAQ43.0.QD1.sazer" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20386
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>Is that "sciecne 101" or seance 101?    :-)
>
>Regards,     Frederick

Sorry, I hope my  Park-earthworm post makes up for my bad spelling. It 
seems that Dickie Blue uses a Fizzix seance to come to his conclusions.

Gene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 14:05:20 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03405;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:00:41 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:00:41 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A3DD21.6F3F ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 13:57:05 -0700
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Scudder: Re: Minato Demonstrations
References: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CC2 xch-cpc-02>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"UNaWe1.0.2r.rtzer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20387
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July 8, 1998

Scudder, Henry J wrote:

That 'curtid' on the web address should rather be curtis.
 
> > The update site: <http://keelynet.com/gravity/curtid3.htm>
corrected: <http://keelynet.com/gravity/curtis3.htm>

Your're right.
Thanks for the correction note. Even Michael Randalls did not catch
that! :)

I twitch on the keyboard, and having 'written', go on.
You know, I find that my penmanship is deteriorating by using the
keyboard. Never was great, it's worse now. Can hardly read my own
handwriting.

-ak-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 14:11:23 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05430;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:08:27 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:08:27 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A3DEFE.23C2 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 14:05:02 -0700
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: the Minato
References: <19980708161353.3729.rocketmail send1c.yahoomail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"cKZZu2.0.lK1.9_zer" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20388
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July 8, 1998

James, you wrote,

>I know I'm new here, but could someone please explain
> the physics of this thing to me?

I do not know the physics part of it, but:

I'd like to know what sequence of thinking led him to deveop the device
in the first place.

-ak-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 14:22:20 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA23937;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:18:27 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:18:27 -0700
Sender: barry math.ucla.edu
Message-ID: <35A3E22B.5183 math.ucla.edu>
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 14:18:35 -0700
From: Barry Merriman <barry math.ucla.edu>
Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Minato Demonstrations
References: <199807081618_MC2-528A-102B compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"NDeIw3.0.wr5.Y8-er" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20389
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> To: Vortex
> 
> I have little hope for this Minato gadget. ... magic
> electric motors have been made, but not a single one has ever been
> successfully demonstrated in public or tested independently. 
> Cold fusion was widely replicated withing six months.

I beg to differ with that assertion, but I'm not going
to argue the point with you (anymore).

But, as long as you are discussing strategy for advancing 
O/U technology, I would say that---with all due respect---you
and Gene are heading off in a non-productive direction.
To wit: You and Gene would claim, I think, to have come 
across specific devices that you are sure are over unity
or transmutative, with large and robust signals---say, for example, 
the Griggs device,  and the Cincinnatti group device, 
and the CETI cell. And at leat in the first to cases, the inventors
are cooperative. It thus seems a waste of time to search for 
Yet Another O/U Device. Would it not be far mor productive to 
fixate on one of these devices, and demonstrate beyond a doubt,
to one or several respected scientists and engineers,  that these
devices really work? A single proven "O/U" device would open a flood
gate of funding and interest...but a litany of marginal/unproven
devices (add Pope, add Case, add the recent 1950's experiment) 
is not going to put a hole in the dam, so to speak.

Personally, because of this, I pretty much doubt that any of these
devices are really over unity. And, in my work with Joe Champion,
I observed how hope and ambiguous results can fuel a lot of
claims, activity and small scale investment (small = several millions of
dollars)---yet it never really takes off, because the
effect is not there (as best as I can tell).

So, perhaps you and Gene could clarify why you seem to be persuing a
"breadth" (searching for yet another device/inventor) versus
"depth" (fix the device and push it like crazy) approach, when the
latter seems in order (especially given your correct observation
that there will be an infinite number of spurious claims in the
area of O/U---thus making a bird in the hand all the more valuable).

(Personally, I'm about to exit from active participation in
the O/U/CF arena, on to pastures where things really work, and
new ideas hit the streets within months of their inception, and
billion dollar corporations form in the time between CETI's
Good Morning America appearances.)





-- 
Barry Merriman
Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 14:47:48 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12447;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:44:40 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:44:40 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35A3E840.C4BCF615 css.mot.com>
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 16:44:32 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Minato Demonstrations
References: <199807081618_MC2-528A-102B compuserve.com> <35A3E22B.5183@math.ucla.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"SLT_i2.0.o13.6X-er" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20390
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Barry Merriman wrote:

> (Personally, I'm about to exit from active participation in
> the O/U/CF arena, on to pastures where things really work, and
> new ideas hit the streets within months of their inception, and
> billion dollar corporations form in the time between CETI's
> Good Morning America appearances.)

Oh sure, sell out!  ha ha ha.  I find a careful balance of the two approaches
leads to greater productivity than complete concentration on one or the other. 
The fringe day dreams relieve the day to day monotony of the well troden paths,
the well troden paths provide a solid connection with reality and world
around.  A fine line to walk, but much more satisfying IMO.  

What do you plan on getting into?  Anything we might be interested in?

 
John E. Steck
--------------------------------o]{:
  Senior Mechanical Engineer
  Rapid Tooling Applications
  Motorola PCS, Libertyville

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 14:57:54 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA21664;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:51:30 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:51:30 -0700
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:47:51 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Beyond the Y2K problem
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807081751_MC2-5288-F902 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"tuMgR2.0.BI5.Wd-er" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20391
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

One aspect of the Y2K problem has not been discussed much in the popular
press. The year 2000 is a leap year: it DOES have a February 29. The year 2001
will not have a February 29. Simple Julian date routines may think that 2000
is not a leap year. Some programs which survive January 1, 2000 will screw up
three months later in March.

We may also face the DJ10K problem, when the Dow Jones Industrial Average
exceeds 10,000. It is hard to believe that back in 1965 people seriously
believed computers might be intelligent by the year 2000. I did, anyway,
although maybe not as smart as HAL. I still think they will be eventually, but
it might take hundreds or thousands of years.

The July 1998 issue of Byte magazine has a funny and informative article about
the Y2K problem, starting on page 52. It lists a series of other impending
date crises, like: the Burroughs Unisys A Series date systems expire on
January 2, 2002; the Macintosh System 6 stops working in 2020; the IBM 370 TOD
clock overflows on September 17, 2042; the GPS satellite date scheme rolls
over and resets from week 1024 to 1 on August 22, 1999; the Mayan calendar
predicts the world will end on December 23, 2023.

Unfortunately, I heard that Byte is in trouble. The web site (www.byte.com)
says it was purchased CMP Media Inc on May 29th, 1998 and: "The next issue of
Byte Magazine is July '98 and it will be mailed . . . June 1st - 6th. After
that, the magazine will suspend publishing through the summer and have an
exciting relaunch in the Fall."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 14:58:54 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA21771;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:51:34 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:51:34 -0700
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:47:40 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Minato Demo TYPO
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807081751_MC2-5288-F900 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"7psSj1.0.wJ5.bd-er" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20392
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

I wrote:

    A robust electrical or miracle magnet machine should not be capable of
    self-sustaining . . .

I meant is SHOULD be. Mike explained to me some exceptions in which it would
not be.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 15:24:54 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04847;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:19:36 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:19:36 -0700
Message-ID: <016001bdaabe$01d534e0$aab4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Minato Demonstrations
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:16:03 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"AdQ_n1.0.dB1.u1_er" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20393
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: Minato Demonstrations

John,

I think Barry is going into games of chance where you can bet your ass on
coming out ahead of a Prof. income.   :-)

Regards,    Frederick


>Barry Merriman wrote:
>
>> (Personally, I'm about to exit from active participation in
>> the O/U/CF arena, on to pastures where things really work, and
>> new ideas hit the streets within months of their inception, and
>> billion dollar corporations form in the time between CETI's
>> Good Morning America appearances.)
>
>Oh sure, sell out!  ha ha ha.  I find a careful balance of the two
approaches
>leads to greater productivity than complete concentration on one or the
other.
>The fringe day dreams relieve the day to day monotony of the well troden
paths,
>the well troden paths provide a solid connection with reality and world
>around.  A fine line to walk, but much more satisfying IMO.
>
>What do you plan on getting into?  Anything we might be interested in?
>
>
>John E. Steck
>--------------------------------o]{:
>  Senior Mechanical Engineer
>  Rapid Tooling Applications
>  Motorola PCS, Libertyville
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 15:47:46 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11490;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:41:47 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:41:47 -0700
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:36:14 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Minato Demonstrations
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807081840_MC2-528C-D067 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"EZZfv1.0.Np2.gM_er" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20394
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; >INTERNET:barry math.ucla.edu

I said that cold fusion was widely replicated.  Barry Merriman writes:

     I beg to differ with that assertion, but I'm not going to argue the
     point with you (anymore).

You never did argue the point, Barry. I have asked you repeatedly to write a
serious review of McKubre, or Miles, Pons and Fleischmann, Oriani or any of
the other peer-reviewed papers, but you have always ignored me. You have NEVER
confronted the evidence for mainstream, replicated Pd-D2O CF. You should not
claim you have argued a point when you have refused to write a single
paragraph about it!

Chris Tinsley also repeatedly asked you to address these issue. That was his
method of separating scientists from "skeptics." A person who refuses to
comment on the mainstream, peer-reviewed published evidence for CF is not
serious. YOU are not serious.


     You and Gene would claim, I think, to have come across specific devices
     that you are sure are over unity or transmutative, with large and robust
     signals---say, for example, the Griggs device,  and the Cincinnati group
     device, and the CETI cell . . .

The Griggs signal is not large. It is 5 to 20% excess with noisy, rather crude
calorimetry. I do not see how it can be mistaken, and I do not see how the
signal can be improved given the scale of the device. We have a Griggs device
but we cannot plug it in because the power company cannot give us enough
electricity. We never tested the Cincinnati group device. We never tested the
CETI cell. As you know, Barry, we cannot purchase a CETI cell. I wish we
could. I do not understand why you claim we tested these two devices when you
know as well as I do that we have not.


     And at least in the first to cases, the inventors are cooperative. It
     thus seems a waste of time to search for Yet Another O/U Device.

You know the reasons we must continue to search. You have read these messages
and you have been in close contact with us many times.


     Would it not be far mor productive to fixate on one of these devices,
     and demonstrate beyond a doubt, to one or several respected scientists
     and engineers,  that these devices really work?

Yes, of course, if we could find one that *does* work reliably. The CETI
device might be a good choice, but it is not available to us. If Perkins can
get his machine working for us, it will be a good choice.


     A single proven "O/U" device would open a flood gate of funding and
     interest...but a litany of marginal/unproven devices (add Pope, add
     Case, add the recent 1950's experiment) is not going to put a hole in
     the dam, so to speak.

These devices will remain marginal and unproven unless someone takes the
trouble to prove them. We are not putting effort into the Case machine -- he
is. He is following our suggestion and trying to make a self-sustaining
device. We are waiting for him to bring a successful experiment around again.
If he succeeds, fine. If he fails, too bad. We will report the failure and
move on. I do not understand why you criticize us for reporting on this and
then waiting for additional results. I can't tell if you criticizing us for
waiting and not working on it, or for working too hard on it. We have heard
both objections from various people. Both are absurd.

>From my point of view, the Pope machine is an extension of the Griggs device.
It is a variation that we can use because we can get enough amperage from the
power company to operate the machine. As I mentioned, Perkins himself is
coming up to try to make the Pope machine to work. We'll assist if we can, and
stand by waiting for results. Are we waiting too much or working too hard on
this one? Which is it this time?


     Personally, because of this, I pretty much doubt that any of these
     devices are really over unity.

With these various unreplicated, marginal machines your doubts are justified.
I doubt them as well, but I am willing to give them a chance, and to wait for
the inventors to come back with additional proof. In the case of Pd-D2O CF,
your doubt is irrational. You have no scientific, quantitative reason to doubt
any more than Morrison or Blue do. You simply refuse to look at the evidence.


     And, in my work with Joe Champion, I observed how hope and ambiguous
     results can fuel a lot of claims, activity and small scale investment
     (small = several millions of dollars)---yet it never really takes off,
     because the effect is not there (as best as I can tell).

What could this possibly have to do McKubre sigma 90 results? What does it
have to do with the superb work reported by Fritz Will, or Claytor's
experiments at Los Alamos. You are saying that because snake oil sold by
Doctor Champion does not work, the medication prescribed by doctors in
Atlanta's Northside Hospital also does not work.


     So, perhaps you and Gene could clarify why you seem to be persuing a
     "breadth" (searching for yet another device/inventor) versus "depth"
     (fix the device and push it like crazy) approach . . .

That's simple. We publish a magazine. We do verification experiments on the
side. It is up to inventors, like Case, to do the in-depth experiments. We do
a lot. We can't do everything.


     (Personally, I'm about to exit from active participation in the O/U/CF
     arena, on to pastures where things really work, and new ideas hit the
     streets within months of their inception, and billion dollar
     corporations form in the time between CETI's Good Morning America
     appearances.)

By this standard you would have exited from automobiles long before 1895,
airplanes before 1908, transistors back in the 30's long before 1948, and
personal computers in 1980 . . . just when things started getting interesting
after 20 - 40 years of quiet development work behind the scenes. Take it from
me: the first twenty years of development are more interesting than what
happens after the product takes off. By the time you bring yourself to read
McKubre and comment on it -- and admit it is real -- his work will be history.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 16:43:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22873;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:40:13 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:40:13 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A50C7A.E3A4483B ihug.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 11:31:23 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: the Minato
References: <19980708161353.3729.rocketmail send1c.yahoomail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"7tFQn.0.Ib5.QD0fr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20395
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Well there are a few way to think about this, One is that the energy coming
from the device is taking energy from some less obvious source of energy,
The other is that it is impossible to say that energy can't be created
because you have not seen it, you can't prove a negative, it is illogical
to say that just because one situation does not create energy that energy
can't be created, However even if you found something that appeared to
create energy and you saw no mechanism for the energy to be coming from
somewhere else you can't rule it out, The last word is that it IS possible
to create energy because we have energy now, So that argument may help to
win the deadlock, It is interesting that except for that argument there is
a perfect logical deadlock, you can never prove that something could not
create energy, and a thing that put out energy you could never prove it was
not coming from somewhere else.

It is interesting that one way to look at it is that energy as always being
created and destroyed but not transferred, this is true in fact if you look
at what is happening piece by piece and not taking the large picture, and
even that way of thinking does not prove that you can create more than you
destroy or visa versa.
One last take on this is that there is no such scalar quantity that we call
energy, that there is no such thing as an equivalent of energy of one type
to another, just conversion efficiencies, so all you have to do is turn
energy into another type and turn it back with two different methods
differing in efficiency, one in the favor of one direction the other in the
other direction.

Now as for how these magnetic motors work if you look at magnetic motors
you will see two types that stand out (though I recognize four types), And
this is one of them, they use an angled magnetic field.


John Berry

James Smith wrote:

> ---Akira Kawasaki  wrote:
>
> > The webpage dealing with the Minato Engine has an 'update' of Japan's
> > "Energy Expo 98" held around early part of '98. The report dated
> March
> > 4, 1998, it talks of a tabletop unit with 48 watts in 550 watts out.
> >
> > ermillion's literature shows an improvement of the output  which
> > equated to the "Expo" report, would be 706 watts out for 48 in, a 28%
> > increase in about 4 months!
> > There was another, four unmetered connected large units that could
> > power 30 homes (claimed).
>
> This seems to say that it is making energy.  How?
> Hasn't it been stated that energy can only be transformed?  And if it
> is transforming energy from the permanent magnets, shouldn't it take
> too much energy away after a while, so that the magnets would no
> longer work?  I know I'm new here, but could someone please explain
> the physics of this thing to me?
>
> James Smith
>
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 22:50:47 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02829;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:44:10 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:44:10 -0700
Message-ID: <35A4472A.1690AD04 darknet.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 00:29:30 -0400
From: Steve <darklord darknet.net>
Organization: DarkNet Online/Digital Fusion
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: KeelyNet <KeelyNet-L lists.kz>, Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Philo Farnsworth story on Discovery
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"txW3W1.0.vg.TY5fr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20396
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi all,

there's a story on Discovery this week about Farnsworth.. It's mostly
about his work with TV, but there's a bit at the end which mentions his
work with fusion. However,
the story states that he was not successful..

>In the 1950s and '60s Phil pursued a new vision: nuclear
>fusion as an energy source. The Farnsworths mortgaged
>their home and cashed in their life insurance policies to
>fund his obsession. But Phil's second breakthrough
>never came. The inventor of television died of
>pneumonia in 1971

(from http://www.discovery.com/stories/deadinventors/deadinventors.html)

ttyl
-Steve
--
     darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616
   DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net
Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  8 23:20:31 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18650;
	Wed, 8 Jul 1998 23:13:18 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 23:13:18 -0700
Message-ID: <35A45A2F.73BBB95D darknet.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 01:50:39 -0400
From: Steve <darklord darknet.net>
Organization: DarkNet Online/Digital Fusion
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: KeelyNet-L lists.kz
CC: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Philo Farnsworth story on Discovery
References: <35A4472A.1690AD04 darknet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"FQf9V3.0.BZ4.zz5fr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20397
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi all,

> there's a story on Discovery this week about Farnsworth.. It's mostly
> about his work with TV, but there's a bit at the end which mentions his
> work with fusion. However, the story states that he was not successful..

I wrote a short email to the author, and included a couple links to sites
regarding the
Fusor, including the Farnsworth Chronicles, which he had a link to in the
article!
He emailed back within minutes and said he'd take a look at the links..
maybe he
should have read thru the sites he provided links for.. then he might not
have said
Farnsworth never achieved fusion. ;)

ttyl
-Steve

p.s. the article included this link: http://www.songs.com/philo/ but
evidently the author
didn't see the big FUSION link on the site.. it'll be interesting to see his
reply, once
he takes a look at that. Except for the small comment about fusion, the
article was
excellent, and very interesting.. Hopefully someone will write an article on
Tesla like that,
the public certainly needs to know more about him.. Most people from my
school
that I've asked have never even heard of Tesla. Same with my parents..
--
     darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616
   DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net
Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 00:26:14 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA10842;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:04:09 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:04:09 -0700
Message-ID: <35A42934.23F1 earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 21:21:40 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Britz: experiment trumps theory? 7.8.98
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"12pKv2.0.8f2.dj6fr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20398
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.daimi.aau.dk!kemi.aau.dk!britz
From: britz <britz kemi.aau.dk>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Blue: Miles: experiment trumps theory? 7.3.98
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:32:19 +0200
Organization: DAIMI, Computer Science Dept. at Aarhus University
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.980708100943.15070B-100000 kemi.aau.dk>
References: <35A2E9C1.11C1 earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kemi.aau.dk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <35A2E9C1.11C1 earthlink.net>
Xref: nntp.earthlink.net sci.physics.fusion:22407

On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, Rich Murray wrote (quoting Dick Blue)

> Subject: Re: Britz: Miles rebuttal in J Phy Chem (4.30.98) : Murray:
> Jones, Shkedi recombination 6.29.98
>   Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:20:18 -0400 (EDT)
>   From: "Richard A Blue" <blue pilot.msu.edu>
>     To: rmforall earthlink.net
> 
> The assertion made, it seems, by Mel Miles in his rebuttal(s)
> that experimental evidence is "trumps" over any theoretical
> considerations is one of the questionable ideas that continues
> to plague the cold fusion debate.
> 
> In the absence of some well understood "theory" as to the
> process being observed and the mechanisms by which evidence
> is made observable, Mel Miles has no experiment.  He assumes
[...]

This is not true in principle. There are cases where an experiment provides
clear evidence for something unexpected, and theory then usually catches up
fast. A mild case was HTSC, not expected from such materials - and in fact
still not really understood properly. Another case was cluster impact
fusion (CIF, now proven wrong); at first, the evidence appeared clear,
there was replication (albeit in the same lab), and a cluster of papers
appeared suggesting all sorts of nifty theories to account for it. It all
hinged on whether the charged heavy water molecule clusters in the beam
all had the same energy per water molecule. Eventually, this was shown
not to be the case. The point is, though, that while the evidence appeared
strong, theorists were trying hard to account for it.

If Miles, or anyone else working on CNF, had clear unmistakable evidence
of excess heat or whatever; and if their experiments were reproduced in
other labs, every time, without hedges and without the need to explain
away weaknesses (is there recombination? Is the heat transport constant
constant? Was there helium contamination? etc) then we would all accept
the phenomenon, and theorists would by now be starting to explain it.
As it is, we have a bunch of enthusiasts hotly defending their results
instead of trying to finding their own errors, as Paneth and Peters did
in 1926 (I know some CNF workers do some of that, Storms being one, e.g.).
This sort of thing doesn't trump anything.

So the reason Miles has nothing is not that theory says so, but that
his evidence fails to convince all but those who want to believe.

As someone wrote in a recent essay in Science, theory and experiment go
hand in hand, neither trumps the other.

-- Dieter Britz.    Visit me at http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 01:59:02 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA04905;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 01:53:36 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 01:53:36 -0700
X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:53:46 +0100 (BST)
From: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall city.ac.uk>
X-Sender: remi exeter
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Beyond the Y2K problem
In-Reply-To: <199807081751_MC2-5288-F902 compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.980709095150.3591A-100000 exeter>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"yPbNl3.0.ZC1.FK8fr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20399
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

A bit of regulation (not a bad thing) for you:

The British Standards Institute has published a useful definition of 2000
compliance. Ideally, a system will: 

  1.Allow the date to be set to 2000 (and beyond) and correctly maintain
    the date thereafter 
  2.Recognise that 29 February 2000 exists (ie 2000 is a leap year). 
  3.Correctly determine the day of the week after 2000 (1 Jan 2000 is a
    Saturday, 1 Mar 2000 a Wednesday). 
  4.Correctly roll the date over from 31 December 1999 to 1 January 2000
    automatically, whether the system is switched-on at that time or not. 
  5.Store dates both before and after 1 Jan 2000 so that comparisons and
    arithmetic on these dates give correct results. 

Items 1 and 4 are essentially matters for the hardware and operating
system, 3 and 5 mainly for the applications, and 2 concerns both. This set
of pages is mainly concerned with the hardware and operating system. 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 01:59:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA04936;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 01:53:48 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 01:53:48 -0700
Message-ID: <35A42C4F.251A earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 21:34:56 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Murray: TChubb: CF claims 7.7.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"IIn0x3.0.2D1.RK8fr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20400
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Subject: Murray: tchubb: CF claims 7.7.98
       Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 19:24:59 -0500
       From:  Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Organization: Room For All
         To:  tchubb aol.com, mel_miles@imdgw.chinalake.navy.mil

Subject: cf observations
  Date:  Thu, 2 Jul 1998 18:02:44 EDT
  From:  TCHUBB aol.com
    To:  rmforall earthlink.net

2 July

Rich Murray,

The following experiments encourage me:  The F and P boil-dry heat
balance studies; their "heat after death" observations; the Arata/Zhang
6 published observations of excess heat from Pd black; the Arata/Zhang
observations of small amounts of strongly trapped helium with abnormal
helium-3/helium-4 ratio in  powder that had produced heat and not in the
controls; the Miles/Bush helium observations; the many low level heat
observations in solid cathodes by many workers, e.g.,  F and P, the
Huggins group, McKubre, Miles, Oriani, Storms...; and the Will and
Cedzynska observations of tritium.  I think the DeNinno studies of
50-micron  Pd cathodes and of Pd film on Ni at the ICCF-7 meeting, and
the Filimonov observation of heat after death in niobium at the last
Russian meeting are also encouraging.

Thanks for  your interest,

Talbot Chubb

July 7, 1998   Hello Talbot,   I'm very glad to think over your detailed
list.  I followed a long and tedius debate between Mike Carrell and Kirk
Shanahan over the Arata & Zhang papers last winter, and it seemed to me
in all fairness that Shanahan was able to cite a number of problems in
the details of the published papers that made him unable to accept that
He3 and He4 were being produced.  Frankly it got over my head.  I notice
that Eliott Kennel in his long critique of ICCF7 listed many possible
artifacts in He measurements.  What I react to is that Arata seems to
have claimed that his cells always succeeded, at least six times,
without making any claims that, for example, only rare and special
sources of Pd would work.  So this would seem to be the smoking gun of a
simple, robust, replicable experiment.  All that would  be necessary
would be for Arata to ship a double cathode to Mallove, Merriman, or
Little for testing.  Yet, it appears that Arata & Zhang have abandoned
this surefire ticket to a Nobel prize, and have not done any more
experiments in recent years, and, so far, I have not heard any detailed
information about attempts at replication by anyone.

I read Melvin Miles' long rebutal in April 30 J. Physical Chemistry,
and, within the severe limits of my actual expertise, was impressed.  He
said 70 % of his runs had no excess heat, and that 30 % did.  Those are
pretty good odds, if anyone wants to try a replication.  Is he currently
having that kind of success with ongoing experiments?  Is anyone working
with him to achieve replication?

Little quoted Fleischmann's remarks at ICCF7, that the major problem for
CF research was that there was no replicable experiment.  This implies
to me that he includes his own "boil-off" runs.

Regards, Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 02:25:19 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA28555;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 02:22:33 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 02:22:33 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:13:22 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: test
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980709101311.25720A iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"8ohpC1.0.4-6.Nl8fr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20401
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 04:24:41 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA20092;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 04:19:26 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 04:19:26 -0700
Message-ID: <002f01bdab2a$f57e1960$84b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>, <rl_brodzinski@pnl.gov>
Subject: Look for WIMPs in Nuclear Fission?  
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 05:15:03 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"E3QNV2.0.mv4.zSAfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20402
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

The usual fission products are the "light",
72 to 110 AMU isotopes, and the "heavy" 110 to 162 AMU isotopes, plus the
fission neutrons.

All of these supposedly add up to the mass of
the 92U233, 92U235, and 94Pu239 for thermal neutron induced fission.

However, with about 51 "surplus" neutrons in the fissionable atoms,some of
which might also come off in neutral clusters of 3 to 30 or so neutrons,
WIMPs?,they could be missed, unless careful weight loss experiments are
conducted.

The clusters would have a radius of about
4.6E-18 meters, and would probably leak from the capsule resulting in a
measurable weight loss.

A small quantity of fissionable material encased in a suitable capsule and
placed in a research reactor, along with some fancy footwork, might allow
one to see if these neutron clusters,"WIMPs"?, are produced.

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 06:38:06 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02538;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 06:30:51 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 06:30:51 -0700
Message-ID: <19980709124104.26187.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 05:41:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Beyond the Y2K problem
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"Ffv8k2.0.Yd.AOCfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20403
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


The one other thing that folks keep overlooking is to test to see what
happens after the clock advances past Y2K....and the system/device is
rebooted.  Compaqs seem to have this little problem.  Work fine in
real-time with transition, but bios POST pukes on reboot after Y2K
rollover and thinks the date/time is invalid -- clears the existing
value in the process.




---Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall city.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> A bit of regulation (not a bad thing) for you:
> 
> The British Standards Institute has published a useful definition of
2000
> compliance. Ideally, a system will: 
> 
>   1.Allow the date to be set to 2000 (and beyond) and correctly
maintain
>     the date thereafter 
>   2.Recognise that 29 February 2000 exists (ie 2000 is a leap year). 
>   3.Correctly determine the day of the week after 2000 (1 Jan 2000
is a
>     Saturday, 1 Mar 2000 a Wednesday). 
>   4.Correctly roll the date over from 31 December 1999 to 1 January
2000
>     automatically, whether the system is switched-on at that time or
not. 
>   5.Store dates both before and after 1 Jan 2000 so that comparisons
and
>     arithmetic on these dates give correct results. 
> 
> Items 1 and 4 are essentially matters for the hardware and operating
> system, 3 and 5 mainly for the applications, and 2 concerns both.
This set
> of pages is mainly concerned with the hardware and operating system. 
> 
> 
> 

==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 07:10:11 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA07977;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:04:49 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:04:49 -0700
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:01:26 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Fleischmann's statement about replicabil
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807091003_MC2-529E-3DF4 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"GTdxq3.0.Ry1.0uCfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20404
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; >INTERNET:rmforall earthlink.net

Rich Murray, who apparently knows nothing about the CF literature, quotes
someone else who quoted someone else. He takes a statement out of context and
invents a new meaning for it:

     Little quoted Fleischmann's remarks at ICCF7, that the major problem for
     CF research was that there was no replicable experiment.  This implies
     to me that he includes his own "boil-off" runs.

Fleischmann boil off runs were repeatedly replicated within IMRA and
independently by the French Atomic Energy Commission. Fleischmann meant there
are no *easily* replicable experiments, which work much more often than not,
or experiments which a skilled person can master in a few weeks. He did not
mean that no experiment has been replicated. Murray, Britz, Blue and Merriman
wish that was so. They want to believe experiments have not been replicated.
That is why they will never discuss the French AEC or even admit it exists, as
if sticking your head in the sand and evading serious discussion of the facts
will change reality.

This is what happens when you depend on a quote of a quote of a quote from a
conference you did not attend regarding papers you refuse to read.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 08:03:51 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA08330;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:00:38 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:00:38 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980709095413.0069afd4 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 09:54:13 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Fleischmann's statement about replicabil
In-Reply-To: <199807091003_MC2-529E-3DF4 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"UKuAn3.0.422.KiDfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20405
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 10:01 7/9/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Fleischmann meant there
>are no *easily* replicable experiments, which work much more often than not,
>or experiments which a skilled person can master in a few weeks. He did not
>mean that no experiment has been replicated.

What he actually said (I was there) was very close to, "There exists no
cold fusion demonstration apparatus today".  

I think this should be interpreted as follows:  

There is no protocol, however complex, that we can currently devise which
will ensure a positive result in a cold fusion experiment.

McKubre has further amplified this dismal position:

>We do not know how to reproduce our own experiments.  We have generated
>more null results and hours  of beautiful calorimetric balance (>100,000h)
>than anyone on the planet except Fleischmann and Pons.  Nevertheless, the
>existence of a thermal anomaly in the D/Pd system is clear to me, as it is to
>them, because we have seen the effect with our own eyes and modulated it with
>our own hands.  We cannot prove it to you because we are not in control of
>all critical parameters.  You should be skeptical, and remain so until we
>supply proof.

What amazes me is that, even in the face of statements like these from the
principle investigators of cold fusion, we still have some folks adamantly
insisting that the reality of cold fusion has been proven beyond a shadow
of a doubt.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 08:13:46 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18322;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:10:05 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:10:05 -0700
Message-ID: <35A4CFE0.453 earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 09:12:48 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>, Vortex-L@eskimo.com
Subject: Murray: Rothwell: send F-P boil-off papers? 7.9.98
References: <199807091003_MC2-529E-3DF4 compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Jn66m2.0.AU4.DrDfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20406
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July 9, 1998

Dear all, even Rothwell,  Could someone kindly email or snailmail all
the famed Fleischmann and Pons Pd/D electrolyisis boil-off papers, so I
and more competent others can critique them fairly and quickly?

Does anyone have the exact wording of Fleischmann's statements at ICCF7
about the present lack of replicability in CF research?

Thanks,  Rich Murray
Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103
rmforall earthlink.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 08:52:06 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA27261;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:46:15 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:46:15 -0700
Message-ID: <19980709154020.3303.rocketmail send1d.yahoomail.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:40:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: James Smith <smithja_82 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: the Minato
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"_IRWv2.0.kf6.6NEfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20408
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I had a thought last night about the Minato.  It is extremely far
fetched, but, in my mind, so is the ability to change 34 volts into
500.  Also, if I sound like an idiot, please tell me why I sound like
one.

Could it be that the spin of the wheel onto which the permanent
magnets are attached creates some sort of anti-magnetic field.  In one
report that I read, it was stated that when a magnet was brought
closer to the wheel, then it started to spin faster.  This seems to
say that when the permanent magnets that were stuck to the wheel
passed the magnet that the person was holding, any attractive force
between them suddently disappeared.  But as they drew nearer, on the
other side of the person's magnet, there was a strong attractive
force.  Unless there are manipulations of the magnets as the wheel
spins, then there must be some sort of anti-magnetic field on the side
of the magnet that is turned slightly in.  (Refer to the picture on
http://keelynet.com/gravity/curtis.htm.)

My other idea is so far out there that you may wish to stop reading
now.  Could the magnets that are on their way up, opposite the magnets
that are on their way dow, on the wheel, create an anti-gravitational
field that would decrease the weight of the side that is pulling away
from Earth's gravity and thereby force the side that is already going
down to continue doing so?

James S
confused thinker
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 08:57:41 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15930;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:42:11 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:42:11 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A4E2CA.60AA071C ariel.com>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 11:33:30 -0400
From: Terren Suydam <terren ariel.com>
Organization: Netmonkey Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Beyond the Y2K problem
References: <199807081751_MC2-5288-F902 compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ery6i3.0.ju3.BJEfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20407
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> To: Vortex
> 
> One aspect of the Y2K problem has not been discussed much in the popular
> press. The year 2000 is a leap year: it DOES have a February 29. The year 2001
> will not have a February 29. Simple Julian date routines may think that 2000
> is not a leap year. Some programs which survive January 1, 2000 will screw up
> three months later in March.

Why would that be?  The year 1900 was a leap year.

> We may also face the DJ10K problem, when the Dow Jones Industrial Average
> exceeds 10,000. It is hard to believe that back in 1965 people seriously
> believed computers might be intelligent by the year 2000. I did, anyway,
> although maybe not as smart as HAL. I still think they will be eventually, but
> it might take hundreds or thousands of years.
> 
> The July 1998 issue of Byte magazine has a funny and informative article about
> the Y2K problem, starting on page 52. It lists a series of other impending
> date crises, like: the Burroughs Unisys A Series date systems expire on
> January 2, 2002; the Macintosh System 6 stops working in 2020; the IBM 370 TOD
> clock overflows on September 17, 2042; the GPS satellite date scheme rolls
> over and resets from week 1024 to 1 on August 22, 1999; the Mayan calendar
> predicts the world will end on December 23, 2023.

I believe the Mayan calender ends on that date in 2012.
 
> Unfortunately, I heard that Byte is in trouble. The web site (www.byte.com)
> says it was purchased CMP Media Inc on May 29th, 1998 and: "The next issue of
> Byte Magazine is July '98 and it will be mailed . . . June 1st - 6th. After
> that, the magazine will suspend publishing through the summer and have an
> exciting relaunch in the Fall."
> 
> - Jed

Terren

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 09:24:09 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22326;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:18:11 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:18:11 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <003101bdab54$11aa54e0$255b2bcf ar91037.argis.com>
From: "Craig Haynie" <ccHaynie ix.netcom.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Beyond the Y2K problem
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:10:17 -0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"whJ1-1.0.jS5.zqEfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20409
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Terren Suydam <terren ariel.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, July 09, 1998 15:52
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Beyond the Y2K problem


>Jed Rothwell wrote:
>>
>> One aspect of the Y2K problem has not been discussed much in the
popular
>> press. The year 2000 is a leap year: it DOES have a February 29. The
year 2001
>> will not have a February 29. Simple Julian date routines may think
that 2000
>> is not a leap year. Some programs which survive January 1, 2000 will
screw up
>> three months later in March.
>
>Why would that be?  The year 1900 was a leap year.

No it wasn't. Leap years are determined by this rule of logic:

(Year / 4) and ( not (Year / 100) or (Year / 400) )

Craig Haynie (Houston)



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 09:38:28 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04167;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:33:31 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:33:31 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980709122925.007cc460 post.queensu.ca>
X-Sender: simonb post.queensu.ca
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 12:29:25 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Bart Simon <simonb post.queensu.ca>
Subject: Re: Fleischmann's statement about replicabil
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980709095413.0069afd4 mail.eden.com>
References: <199807091003_MC2-529E-3DF4 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"3Azhn3.0.V01.Q3Ffr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20410
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Greetings,

At 09:54 AM 7/9/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote:  

>McKubre has further amplified this dismal position:
>
>>We do not know how to reproduce our own experiments.  We have generated
>>more null results and hours  of beautiful calorimetric balance (>100,000h)
>>than anyone on the planet except Fleischmann and Pons.  Nevertheless, the
>>existence of a thermal anomaly in the D/Pd system is clear to me, as it
is to
>>them, because we have seen the effect with our own eyes and modulated it
with
>>our own hands.  We cannot prove it to you because we are not in control of
>>all critical parameters.  You should be skeptical, and remain so until we
>>supply proof.
>
>What amazes me is that, even in the face of statements like these from the
>principle investigators of cold fusion, we still have some folks adamantly
>insisting that the reality of cold fusion has been proven beyond a shadow
>of a doubt.

I too remember McKubre saying something like this in Asti, and one can not
help being struck by his honesty and candor.  Yet it seems important to add
that McKubre can not be read as either becoming skeptical or admitting to
failure.  His perspective has always seemed to be that this CF stuff is
extremely hard and frustrating work.  When this gets cast in the polarized,
reified, and time-dilated atmosophere of Vortex the worry is that saying
this constitutes an admission of weakness which the "skeptics" will
capitalize on (I think the sense that there is a war going on here is very
real whether folks like it or not).  Consequently, the rule of thumb for
both the polarized sides here is express no weakness.

But away from Vortex, things are a little more normal if you like -- what
Mckubre and most others get upset about, from what I understand, is just
the general lack of respect for their work as scientists.  The admission of
so many null results is not to be taken as disproof, but rather as a way of
high-lighting the significance of the positive results - they stand out
clearly against the background of  "beautiful calorimetric balance" even if
it is not known why.   When skeptics so quickly dismiss the positive
results, what they are really doing is questioning all those hours of
generating the null results against  which make a positive result "positive".

At this stage of the game scientific practice simply isn't as clean as
skeptics and critics assert.  I really can't agree with Dick Blue's
comments on this at all.  I don't get the sense that there is a crucial
experiment or demonstration that can disprove or prove cold fusion
unproblematically for everyone no matter how much either side says it is so
(and btw, as a sociologist, I reject both pathological science and
pathological skepticism as sound explanations for the continuing conflict).

So I guess what is being asserted is not that the reality of cold fusion
has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, but that the reality of cold
fusion has been proven beyond the shadow of skepticism.  In my experience
talking to scientists of all stripes, doubt is everywhere and always
present one way or another.

Oh gads, I seem to have rambled on...  back to the trenches all.

cheers,
Bart


=====================================================
Bart Simon			simonb post.queensu.ca
Dept. of Sociology		http://post.queensu.ca/~simonb/
Queen's University
Kingston, Ontario		phone: 613-545-6000 x7152
K7L-3N6			fax: 613-545-2871
=====================================================


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 09:51:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27888;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:43:47 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:43:47 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980709122229.00bef390 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 12:22:29 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Beyond the Y2K problem
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <35A4E2CA.60AA071C ariel.com>
References: <199807081751_MC2-5288-F902 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"2pEBd3.0.gp6.1DFfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20411
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:33 AM 7/9/98 -0400, Terren Suydam wrote:
 
>Why would that be?  The year 1900 was a leap year.
 
   Ah, the fun of fixing calendars.  In the Gregorian calendar, years
divisible by 100 are not leap years, unless they are also divisible by 400.
 In the Julian calendar, the year 1900 was a leap year.  Some countries
still used the Julian calendar in 1900, so in those countries, such as
Russia and Greece, yes, 1900 was a leap year.

   The rule making 2000 a leap year has been in the Gregorian calendar
since the Gregorian calendar was originally adopted, but 2000 will be the
first time the rule is used.  There is a need for another correction about
every 4000 years, but no one has adopted such a rule yet.  (The fix from
the Julian to the Gregorian calendar was needed, but it was not obvious
during any one person's lifetime.  The Roman Catholic Church though was old
enough and concerned enough with dates to finally force the change.  But
when will people start worrying about whether 4000 AD should be a leap
year?  My guess is that the final decision will be made AFTER 3900 AD.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 09:56:53 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08036;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:51:16 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:51:16 -0700
Message-ID: <35A4F3D9.4D776394 ariel.com>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 12:46:17 -0400
From: Terren Suydam <terren ariel.com>
Organization: Netmonkey Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Beyond the Y2K problem
References: <003101bdab54$11aa54e0$255b2bcf ar91037.argis.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"npK8P1.0.Nz1.3KFfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20412
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Craig Haynie wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terren Suydam <terren ariel.com>
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Date: Thursday, July 09, 1998 15:52
> Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Beyond the Y2K problem
> 
> >Jed Rothwell wrote:
> >>
> >> One aspect of the Y2K problem has not been discussed much in the
> popular
> >> press. The year 2000 is a leap year: it DOES have a February 29. The
> year 2001
> >> will not have a February 29. Simple Julian date routines may think
> that 2000
> >> is not a leap year. Some programs which survive January 1, 2000 will
> screw up
> >> three months later in March.
> >
> >Why would that be?  The year 1900 was a leap year.
> 
> No it wasn't. Leap years are determined by this rule of logic:
> 
> (Year / 4) and ( not (Year / 100) or (Year / 400) )
> 
> Craig Haynie (Houston)

Good thing I'm not on the Y2K problem here.  hehe  Thanks.

Terren

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 10:31:40 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04855;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:22:41 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:22:41 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:21:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fleischmann's statement about replicability
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980709095413.0069afd4 mail.eden.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980709100223.1610A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"Zlwvs1.0.dB1.RnFfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20413
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



On Thu, 9 Jul 1998, Scott Little wrote:

[snip]
> 
> McKubre has further amplified this dismal position:
> 
> >We do not know how to reproduce our own experiments.  We have generated
> >more null results and hours  of beautiful calorimetric balance (>100,000h)
> >than anyone on the planet except Fleischmann and Pons.  Nevertheless, the
> >existence of a thermal anomaly in the D/Pd system is clear to me, as it is to
> >them, because we have seen the effect with our own eyes and modulated it with
> >our own hands.
 
I wonder though if what the researchers saw (the thermal anomaly) can  in
reality be explained by some other means than cold fusion. What I mean by
this that although some people (including myself) have seen lights in the
sky that cannot appear to be explained as airplanes, meteorites , or
satellites , this does not show that they are indeed spacecraft visiting
us from other planets as some people _wish them to be_ . 

That is the objective some of these researchers have in mind is to produce
an  effect that they can  say conforms with their pre-concieved notion of
the way CF is supposed to work . So they continue thier experimental
efforts in a way that coincides with that explanation (ie beaker like
apparatii with calorimeters attached to them). 

On the other hand it would be interesting to know , for example what is
causing the pits found in some electrodes , whether or not the beaker like
apparatus in question produces OU thermal effects or not. 

I'm sure there's someone monitoring these posts who might enlighten us on
that subject.

Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 10:51:06 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20832;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:45:17 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:45:17 -0700
Message-ID: <01BDAB37.B9DF1DC0 209-113-17-90.insync.net>
From: Tractebel Energy Marketing <guest tractebelusa.com>
To: "'Larry Wharton'" <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Cc: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Second law theory article online !
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:28:48 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA20800
Resent-Message-ID: <"-0Vvl.0.E55.i6Gfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20414
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Good observation, however, at the risk of sounding "nit-picky", a third irreversible process is heat radiation where heat from a warm body is transmitted to colder bodies by radiating thermal energy across a distance without requiring matter as a transfer

 medium.  Though very similar to heat conduction in creating entropy, intermolecular collisions do not occur.  (I apologize.  This is a topic that is very "near and dear" to my heart and I could not resist making this comment.  Thanks for your understandi

ng.)

Allen

-----Original Message-----
From:	Larry Wharton [SMTP:wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov]
Sent:	Tuesday, July 07, 1998 11:24 AM
To:	leoguitar vossnet.de
Cc:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	Re: Second law theory article online !

>A new article by Dieter Bauer is set up on the theory page of my server
>at
>
>http://www.overunity.com/theory.htm    or more specific
>http://www.overunity.com/2ndlaw/2ndlaw.htm

>Stefan Hartmann

  I looked over this article and I am sorry to say that it appears to be
invalid.  First of all, the article attempts to derive knowledge of the
entropy density production using reversible thermodynamics but reversible
thermodynamics gives zero entropy production.  It is only irreversible
thermodynamics that will give a non zero entropy production.  The only two
known mechanisms causing irreversibility is viscosity and heat conduction
and this article provides no information on these two mechanisms.  Worst of
all is the final result

   Integral{ T dS } < 0   .

There is no law of thermodynamics corresponding to this result.  Since the
change in heat dQ is given by

    dQ = T dS

then the supposed result is

   Integral{ dQ } < 0

which is untrue for a wide range of thermodynamical cycles.  The proper
statement of the second law is

   Integral{ dS } > 0




Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 11:04:01 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11521;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:53:53 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:53:53 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <01BDAB37.D10BBBC0 209-113-17-90.insync.net>
From: Tractebel Energy Marketing <guest tractebelusa.com>
To: "'John Berry'" <antigrav ihug.co.nz>,
        "vortex-l eskimo.com"
	 <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: the Minato
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:25:49 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id KAA11467
Resent-Message-ID: <"UjUMY1.0.tp2.fEGfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20415
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Whether the source of energy is "created" (defying the 1st law of T.) or recycled (defying the 2nd law of T.) will be easily proved for a device that is self-sustaining.  Simply enclose and seal the running self-sustaining device inside a well-insulated c

ontainer (Dewar's flask quality would be best) equipped with an accurate method for monitoring the temperature inside the container.  If the device is creating energy then the container temperature will rise steadily until either the device overheats or t

he rate of heat loss from the container equals the rate of energy production in which case the temperature will stabilize (above that of the air surrounding the container).  On the other hand, if the device is recycling energy then the temperature will re

main unchanged as long as the device maintains steady operation. Or the temperature may drop slightly by an amount equal to any increase in mechanical energy occurring after the container was sealed, or increase slightly by an amount equal to any decrease

 in mechanical energy occurring after the container was sealed.  These scenarios would provide solid proof of whether the energy was be created or recycled.

I strongly suspect that, should any device be made to be self-sustaining, it will be found that it is actually recycling energy.  This will force the 2nd law of T. to revert back to its original form as being merely a law of statistical probability withou

t the limiting nature of the current accepted axioms of the law.  This will mean that there exists thermodynamic systems where the state of highest statistical probability DOES NOT correspond to maximum thermal equilibrium but equates rather to non-equili

brium in which "high-order" energy exists.

Allen

-----Original Message-----
From:	John Berry [SMTP:antigrav ihug.co.nz]
Sent:	Thursday, July 09, 1998 1:31 PM
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	Re: the Minato

Well there are a few way to think about this, One is that the energy coming
from the device is taking energy from some less obvious source of energy,
The other is that it is impossible to say that energy can't be created
because you have not seen it, you can't prove a negative, it is illogical
to say that just because one situation does not create energy that energy
can't be created, However even if you found something that appeared to
create energy and you saw no mechanism for the energy to be coming from
somewhere else you can't rule it out, The last word is that it IS possible
to create energy because we have energy now, So that argument may help to
win the deadlock, It is interesting that except for that argument there is
a perfect logical deadlock, you can never prove that something could not
create energy, and a thing that put out energy you could never prove it was
not coming from somewhere else.

It is interesting that one way to look at it is that energy as always being
created and destroyed but not transferred, this is true in fact if you look
at what is happening piece by piece and not taking the large picture, and
even that way of thinking does not prove that you can create more than you
destroy or visa versa.
One last take on this is that there is no such scalar quantity that we call
energy, that there is no such thing as an equivalent of energy of one type
to another, just conversion efficiencies, so all you have to do is turn
energy into another type and turn it back with two different methods
differing in efficiency, one in the favor of one direction the other in the
other direction.

Now as for how these magnetic motors work if you look at magnetic motors
you will see two types that stand out (though I recognize four types), And
this is one of them, they use an angled magnetic field.


John Berry

James Smith wrote:

> ---Akira Kawasaki  wrote:
>
> > The webpage dealing with the Minato Engine has an 'update' of Japan's
> > "Energy Expo 98" held around early part of '98. The report dated
> March
> > 4, 1998, it talks of a tabletop unit with 48 watts in 550 watts out.
> >
> > ermillion's literature shows an improvement of the output  which
> > equated to the "Expo" report, would be 706 watts out for 48 in, a 28%
> > increase in about 4 months!
> > There was another, four unmetered connected large units that could
> > power 30 homes (claimed).
>
> This seems to say that it is making energy.  How?
> Hasn't it been stated that energy can only be transformed?  And if it
> is transforming energy from the permanent magnets, shouldn't it take
> too much energy away after a while, so that the magnets would no
> longer work?  I know I'm new here, but could someone please explain
> the physics of this thing to me?
>
> James Smith
>
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 11:03:05 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23643;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:55:01 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:55:01 -0700
Message-ID: <35A503D0.E410BD9F GroupZ.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 13:54:24 -0400
From: sno <sno GroupZ.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "freenrg-l eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>,
        "USA-TESLA list.iex.net" <USA-TESLA@list.iex.net>,
        "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Sonofusion page
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"AMrAA2.0.Hn5.qFGfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20416
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Ran across this sonofusion page that I though might be of
interest to people on this list....steve opelc

http://www.hooked.net/~rgeorge/sonof.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 12:46:18 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25122;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:38:59 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:38:59 -0700
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:35:15 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Fleischmann's statement . . .
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807091538_MC2-52A5-4F7 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"99lA33.0.S86.InHfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20417
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Scott Little writes:

     What he [Fleischmann] actually said (I was there) was very close to,
     "There exists no cold fusion demonstration apparatus today".

     I think this should be interpreted as follows:

     There is no protocol, however complex, that we can currently devise
     which will ensure a positive result in a cold fusion experiment.

I agree. That is close to what he said, and what he meant.


     McKubre has further amplified this dismal position . . .

Yup.


     What amazes me is that, even in the face of statements like these from
     the principle investigators of cold fusion, we still have some folks
     adamantly insisting that the reality of cold fusion has been proven
     beyond a shadow of a doubt.

That's preposterous. Tell us, Scott: do you know of a simple, foolproof way to
set off a nuclear explosion? Do you know of an atom bomb demonstration device?
I presume you have not witnessed an atomic bomb explosion first hand, but you
probably believe they exist. Do you know a foolproof protocol that will make a
tokamak reactor self-sustain? Have you ever measured the effect of the sun's
gravity on light from distant stars? The experiment was difficult in 1919 and
it remains tough today. The results were noisy. Many data points were thrown
out, some people say arbitrarily. Despite the well-known difficulties of
replicating these major scientific experiments, no sane person will doubt the
existence of the atom bomb or relativity. Even though top quarks are
all-but-irreproducible, nobody questions the Fermilab results on that basis.
It is presently impossible to make a self-sustaining tokamak, but nobody
doubts it can be done in principle. People who build tokamaks say these
machines are difficult to replicate, requiring a combination of science,
intuition, know-how, and cooperative teamwork by thousands of the most
skilled people on earth. There are no tokamak demonstration devices. Yet
nobody says that tokamaks do not exist because they are so difficult to
replicate and operate. New and difficult surgical procedures like heart
transplants often fail, sometimes more often than they succeed, because they
are tricky, experimental, and doctors must practice before they master the
techniques. Yet nobody would claim these procedures do not exist! After
decades of effort, scientists succeeded in cloaning one sheep and two cows
to date, in experiments that many scientists formerly considered
impossible. Scott Little could not clone a cow. I couldn't! Although
hundreds of agricultural and biochemical labs are probably trying
frantically, so far only two groups in Scotland and Japan have succeeded.
By all accounts it is a difficult technique that takes practice and
know-how. Yet nobody doubts the clones are real. I could easily list a
hundred, or a thousand, OR TEN THOUSAND other examples of imperfect
technology which work only intermittently for unknown reasons, or only
with extreme difficulty in the hands of experts.

I am astounded that a person living in the modern world would make such an
illogical claim, so at odds with everyday experience! We are surrounded by
examples of difficult, incomplete, poorly understood problems in technology,
medicine, agriculture, and on and on -- everywhere you turn. The ONLY
scientific standards of existence are: 1. The signal to noise ratio, and 2.
The extent to which the phenomenon has been replicated in different labs and
observed by different people. When #1 is large enough, as with the atom bomb
test in 1945 and the cloned sheep, #2 is irrelevant. Cold fusion passed both
1 and 2 by 1990. The new standards proposed by Scott -- "is it easy? Is there
a demo?" -- have never been proposed for any other discovery. Martin
Fleischmann bemoans the lack of demo devices because he realizes that idiots
who know nothing about science or signal-to-noise ratios will demand a demo
before they believe. The idiots have made an unprecedented special case for
cold fusion. It is a terrible shame. It is unfair and unreasonable, but
Martin understands the political situation. Scott Little has confused
politics with science . . . or else he does not understand what a signal to
noise ratio is.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 12:56:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00116;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:46:30 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:46:30 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:35:47 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Murray: Rothwell: send F-P boil-off pape
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807091538_MC2-52A5-4F8 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"6t8uA.0.jK7.FuHfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20418
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; >INTERNET:rmforall earthlink.net

Rich Murray writes:

     Dear all, even Rothwell,  Could someone kindly email or snailmail all
     the famed Fleischmann and Pons Pd/D electrolysis boil-off papers

I wouldn't give you the time of day. I will give you the title, however, which
is listed in every on-line database of CF papers from Britz to
www.infinite-energy.com. It is:

     M. Fleischmann (Univ. Southampton), S. Pons (IMRA Europe), "Calorimetry
     of the Pd-D2O system: from simplicity via complications to simplicity,"
     Physics Letters A, 176 (1993) 118-129

I would recommend the follow up papers by Pons and Fleischmann about heat
after death, the debate between Morrison and Fleischmann which I quoted the
other day, and the papers from the French AEC describing replications. For
those who have no background in cold fusion, Fire from Ice and the major paper
by Ed Storms will constitute an essential introduction to the field. You
cannot evaluate one experiment in isolation, out of context. You must look at
the totality of the evidence for cold fusion. This should not be confused with
the evidence for other one-of-a-kind, unrelated, exotic excess energy devices
like the Griggs machine and the tokamak reactors.


     . . . so I and more competent others can critique them fairly and
     quickly?

You have a choice. The critique can be fair or it can be quick, not both. As
Oriani said when the paper came out, it is complicated and difficult. Parts of
it are easy enough, though.

The opposite of a fair and quick critique can be found in Morrison's paper.
There is a public domain version floating around and a version published in
Physics Letters A. This was a melange of objections dredged up by Morrison out
of the cesspool at sci.physics.fusion. It includes every major "objection"
that anyone over there could dream up after months of wracking their brains.
It is a farce. Nothing that I have ever written about the skeptics hurts their
case as much as this paper. Nothing demonstrates more clearly that they are
scientific illiterates and world-class idiots -- especially Morrison. The
arguments are absurd. Most are quantitatively wrong by several orders of
magnitude. Morrison did future historians a favor by summarizing this
nonsense. As far as know, this plus the Jones recombination paper are the
only scientific papers ever published by skeptic that attempt to show
technical errors in CF research. All of the other results in the literature
remain unchallenged, and unaddressed by "skeptics."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 13:49:59 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04263;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:40:53 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:40:53 -0700
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:36:43 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Fleischmann's statement . . .
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807091639_MC2-52A5-B41 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"0NbkX3.0.W21.KhIfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20419
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; Jim Ostrowski >INTERNET:jimostr victor1.mscomm.com

Jim Ostrowski writes:

     I wonder though if what the researchers saw (the thermal anomaly) can 
     in reality be explained by some other means than cold fusion.

STOP WONDERING and read the damn papers. You will see that McKubre addressed
this issue. He methodically ruled out chemistry. Whether he ruled in nuclear
fusion or not is an open question. Have a look at the autoradiograph photos of
his cathodes and decide for yourself.


     That is the objective some of these researchers have in mind is to
     produce an  effect that they can  say conforms with their pre-concieved
     notion of the way CF is supposed to work.

Nobody knows how CF is supposed to work. McKubre and the others know a lot
about how electrochemistry works. Electrochemical effects give rise to the CF
reaction, perhaps by putting enormous pressure on the materials. That's the
standard hypothesis, although it may fail to explain the gas loading results.
(Perhaps a difference of potential is needed with gas loading as well, as with
a proton conductor?) People often claim that chemistry cannot induce nuclear
reactions, but this is incorrect. A carefully arranged chemical explosion in a
fission bomb induces (triggers) a nuclear effect. Electrochemistry can pack
atoms much tighter than a chemical explosion. MUCH tighter. Beginning in the
late 1970s, electrochemical theorists have postulated that under the right
circumstances, pressure might reach 10^23 atm, greater than the core of a
neutron star. These conditions would be difficult to achieve and they would
cover a tiny area, only a few atoms across, as I understand it. Under this
pressure it would be impossible to *prevent* a nuclear reaction. Atomic nuclei
would cease to exist.


     On the other hand it would be interesting to know , for example what is
     causing the pits found in some electrodes , whether or not the beaker
     like apparatus in question produces OU thermal effects or not.

It would also be interesting to know, for example, what caused the tritium,
the x-rays, and elements with 80 to 100% shifts in isotopic abundance.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 13:53:51 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09383;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:47:55 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:47:55 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:36:11 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Beyond the Y2K problem
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807091639_MC2-52A5-B3E compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"E4L_x1.0.XI2.vnIfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20420
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Robert I. Eachus writes:

     The rule making 2000 a leap year has been in the Gregorian calendar
     since the Gregorian calendar was originally adopted, but 2000 will be
     the first time the rule is used.  There is a need for another correction
     about every 4000 years, but no one has adopted such a rule yet.

I think there was a correction in 1600. The Encyclopedia Britannica sez:

     In the Gregorian calendar now in general use, the discrepancy is
     adjusted by adding the extra day to only those century years exactly
     divisible by 400 (e.g., 1600, 2000). For still more precise reckoning,
     every year evenly divisible by 4,000 (i.e., 16,000, 24,000, etc.) is
     made a common (not leap) year. 


Robert wonders:

     But when will people start worrying about whether 4000 AD should be a
     leap year?  My guess is that the final decision will be made AFTER 3900
     AD.

It looks like the rule is already in place, ready to go. I confess I did not
program it into my Julian date procedures. If it were not in place, the
decision would be made AFTER 3900 AD and the programmers would get to work on
it in the year 3997, assuming we still have pizza, coke and other programmer
brain-food. I hope that computers are smart enough to program themselves by
3900 AD. I hope they are never smart enough to program *us*, but when I see
people playing computer games and video gambling I fear the battle is lost
already.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 14:21:45 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09223;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:12:40 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:12:40 -0700
Message-Id: <35A53006.3E5EC385 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 00:03:02 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Minato Demonstrations
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"bdRZd1.0.0G2.79Jfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20421
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

My point of view on Minato demonstration is positive, At least there are arguments to give possibility (to OU).

1) Minato had patents, It means, there was an substantial engineering work to reflect all aspects of the engine to the paper. I think it is very hard to not catch a systematic error to lead OU result.

2) Measuring input and output power of a electromechanical system is easy and methods are clearly described on textbooks. Minato must be a serious cranks to not see its error. I am ruling out this possibility as he should have many contacts to people and 

should be enough wise to hide its defect. If he is enough wise, why he spend his money to promote an non working engine? Crank possibility is ruled out.

3) Fraud possibility is too weak. This is not a good way to earn money, where are to many fakes in this area. Not easy to convince people and takes their money by public demos. Is there any case in the history where a investor lost substantial money by a 

such a fraud?

4) Minato did a long trip from overseas to make this demonstration. Serious effort significant budget. I don't think simple measurement errors remain undetected as the engine should be under examination for a long time and by many engineers.

5) When "new physics" is considered, we should not blindly follow physical laws and even electrical laws. Even in the context of the general scientific research, we should keep in mind that the all physics laws are generalizations. Physics try to describe

 how things are working, not to dictate to nature should work :-). In electrical engineering, all these laws which we are confident are mainly macroscopic principles. All are mathematical models which fit more or less comfortably to the phenomena, When ex

ceptions occurs, we can simply say "This principle does not cover this phenomenon."  And somebody try to make a new principle to include this exception. This is how the science work.

For example one law says all liquids and gases apply equal pressure to their enclosures (ignoring gravity), but this is only valid for undisturbed state. The principle of C.E. may not hold in some disturbed environment. May expelling magnets disturb the e

nergy balance, and the "free energy extracted" from the environment is restored by the ambient energy level present in a large scale.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 14:33:11 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14876;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:26:50 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:26:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: ehammond pacbell.net
Message-ID: <35A536D0.17A2 pacbell.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 14:32:00 -0700
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-PBME (Macintosh; U; PPC)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Philo Farnsworth story on Discovery
References: <35A4472A.1690AD04 darknet.net> <35A45A2F.73BBB95D@darknet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"pWc2w.0.Ge3.NMJfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20422
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Is there any evidence that the reaction was near the breakeven point?
A high school student I heard of took an old xray tube and had someone 
fill it with D2 and tried to measure gamma signals when the tube had 
voltage attached.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 14:34:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15226;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:27:25 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:27:25 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980709173151.02500800 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 17:31:51 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Beyond the Y2K problem
Cc: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
In-Reply-To: <199807091639_MC2-52A5-B3E compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"p98qL2.0.pj3.yMJfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20423
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 04:36 PM 7/9/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>I think there was a correction in 1600. The Encyclopedia Britannica sez:
>
>     In the Gregorian calendar now in general use, the discrepancy is
>     adjusted by adding the extra day to only those century years exactly
>     divisible by 400 (e.g., 1600, 2000). For still more precise reckoning,
>     every year evenly divisible by 4,000 (i.e., 16,000, 24,000, etc.) is
>     made a common (not leap) year. 

   Ah, you believe everything you see in print?  Seriously, the adoption of
the Gregorian calendar started in 1582, when the Papal Bull was issued, but
very slowly. England adopted it in 1752, which is why we have two birthdays
for George Washington.  Russia waited until after the "October" Revolution
to change, and Greece was basically the last country to abandon the Julian
calendar.  The proposal to make every year divisible by 4000 not a leap
year has been around for a while, but has never been officially adopted by
anyone.
 

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 14:41:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17274;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:37:03 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:37:03 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199807092126.RAA29610 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Fleischmann's statement . . .
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 98 17:33:17 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"5Rza43.0.jD4.uVJfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20425
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> Scott Little has confused
>politics with science . . . or else he does not understand what a signal to
>noise ratio is.

And I would add further to Jed's comment that Scott does not (apparently) 
understand the significance of Fritz Will's tritium results, Tom 
Claytor's tritium results, the late Kevin Wolf's incontrovertible gamma 
ray lines and consistent decay curve results from a P&F experiment, etc., 
etc.  

Let me spell  this out: 

The well documented evidence for nuclear effects in these systems -- the 
above three examples of which are essentially incontrovertible, but there 
are many more -- give very strong presumptive support for the numerous 
nuclear-scale excess energy reports. Anyone who does not get this is 
missing the boat, in my opinion.  

Those who do not understand the significance of the positive calorimetric 
data as has been outlined by Jed, Mitch Swartz, Mel Miles, McKubre, 
Fleischmann and many others already, probably never will.  I would ask 
them to consider what they are doing when they, in effect, wantonly 
downgrade nuclear evidence that they have no hope of falsifying.

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 14:44:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16556;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:35:16 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:35:16 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:20:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Reed Huish <reed zenergy.com>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Perrault: FREE Radiant Energy Research Manual! 6.28.98
In-Reply-To: <000201bda381$36cf35e0$545b96d1 reed-huish>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980709172024.25932B-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"mX4Lx1.0.V24.GUJfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20424
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



	I have tried to call up the manual.... no luck...
	Can anyone put it into ASCII?

				J

On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Reed Huish wrote:

> I have known Bruce Perreault for a few years, and he can be perceived to be
> 'unique', but I believe that is simply his passion to build a working energy
> technology.  He certainly believes in himself and is doing the best he can
> to build a working prototype.
> 
> - Reed, Zenergy
> 
> 
> > On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Rich Murray wrote:
> > > My updated Radiant Energy Research Manual is now given freely to provide
> > > validation for my Radiant Energy discoveries. All I ask is that you
> > > spread the word about this technology and that you give me credit for my
> > > research.
> >
> > Does anyone know Mr. Perrault?  From his behavior on freenrg-L last year,
> > I assumed that he was a classic crackpot with serious ego/paranoia
> > problems, whose main goal seemed to be to attract attention to himself.
> > Was he just going through a bad time, or is he always like that?  If I'm
> > wrong in my opinion about him, then I want to know about it.
> >
> >
> > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) )
> > )))))))))))))))))))))
> > William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> > billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
> > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> > Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
> >
> >
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 15:07:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA21976;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:56:51 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:56:51 -0700
Sender: barry math.ucla.edu
Message-ID: <35A53CA9.2597946D math.ucla.edu>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 14:56:58 -0700
From: Barry Merriman <barry math.ucla.edu>
Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fleischmann's statement . . .
References: <199807091538_MC2-52A5-4F7 compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"sc_hB2.0.7N5.YoJfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20426
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jed Rothwell wrote:

Scott Little Wrote:
        What amazes me is that, even in the face of statements like these from
        the principle investigators of cold fusion, we still have some folks
        adamantly insisting that the reality of cold fusion has been proven
        beyond a shadow of a doubt.

> That's preposterous. Tell us, Scott: do you know of a simple, foolproof way to
> set off a nuclear explosion? Do you know of an atom bomb demonstration device?
> I presume you have not witnessed an atomic bomb explosion first hand, but you
> probably believe they exist. Do you know a foolproof protocol that will make a
> tokamak reactor self-sustain?

Jed, you continue to miss our point here: we are talking about proof that an
effect
exists, while you are talking about devices based on an effect that perform some
useful function. The proper analogy is not between cold fusion and
nuclear bombs/nuclear power plants, but instead you should be comparing to:

atomic bomb -> fundamental effect at work is fission of nuclei, as
demonstrated by  the collision experiments of Rutherford,
or later scattering experiments if you want to focus on demonstrating the
existence of
a neutron.

tokamak fusion reactor -> fundamental effect is fusion of nuclei, the reality of
which can
be deduced from the Sun, or in the lab by the scattering experiments that
Rutherform did
circa 1910.

So, you see, the reality of nuclear fusion and fission were demonstrable through
rather simple scattering experiments---certainly far less effort than building
a bomb or power plant. What is totally absent is a similar robust experiment
that
MERELY demonstrates that "cold fusion" exists, ignoring whether it can ever
be converted to a useful technology.   Until such an experiment is found, "cold
fusion"
will remain a scientific outcast.

--
Barry Merriman
Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 16:49:58 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11508;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:45:22 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:45:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <4986a0d7.35a553d6 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:35:49 EDT
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: neutrons
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38
Resent-Message-ID: <"ekSmi.0.jp2.GOLfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20427
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Ross Tessien wrote:


>
>If you go through the isotopes, you will notice that stable isotopes tend
to
>have even numbers of neutrons.  The reason is because neutrons aren't
really
>"neutral".  They are just neutral relative to positive and negatively
>charged particles.
...............................................................

Ross I don't know where you get all of this stuff from but there is a much
simpler answer.  Nucleons tend to couple pair wise to form stable
configurations.  So do electrons.  The coupling of electrons involves the
magnetic component of the electric force the coupling of nucleons involves the
"magnetic" component of the strong force.  This force is called the "nuclear
spin orbit force".  It has the same FORMULATION as the electromagnetic force
but is NOT electromagnetic in origin.

I believe that the RANGE of the nuclear spin oribit force extends beyond the
nucleus in condensed systems.  This results in the cold fusion phenomea.

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 17:10:14 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15835;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:07:34 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:07:34 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A66468.8BCBFDED ihug.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:58:49 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Tractebel Energy Marketing <guest tractebelusa.com>,
        "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: the Minato
References: <01BDAB37.D10BBBC0 209-113-17-90.insync.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id RAA15806
Resent-Message-ID: <"NP3l.0.Kt3.4jLfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20428
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Try this one on if you think that the thermodynamics people had it right.

Imagine a spherical body (it could be any shape though) that was emitting EM radiation due to it's heat (could be hot as the sun or as a human, in fact why not imagine the sun), Now all around the sun (body) have a complex array of mirrors that reflect an

d focus (with the help of lenses) the suns light into a thin beam and direct it back at one point on the sun, now you have a situation where there is a separation of hot and cold or in this case hot and hotter, The part where all the suns energy is focuse

d is now hotter and processes could be used to turn that heat into other types of energy, this is breaking a law thermodynamics because light can be focuses and can 'run up hill' so you need to see that what can be applied to heat should not be applied to

 everything, Heat does not act the same as everything so don't limit other things by what you believe heat is limited to, note an orgone accumulator breaks laws of thermodynamics also, Laws by conventional scientists are totally wrong,
relativity is more stuffed up side the head than any, I can give you three reasons why it does not work and another as to how it can produce FE!!!

Sorry for the long rant, Just ask and I will tell you about that relativity stuff.


John Berry

Tractebel Energy Marketing wrote:

> Whether the source of energy is "created" (defying the 1st law of T.) or recycled (defying the 2nd law of T.) will be easily proved for a device that is self-sustaining.  Simply enclose and seal the running self-sustaining device inside a well-insulated

 container (Dewar's flask quality would be best) equipped with an accurate method for monitoring the temperature inside the container.  If the device is creating energy then the container temperature will rise steadily until either the device overheats or

 the rate of heat loss from the container equals the rate of energy production in which case the temperature will stabilize (above that of the air surrounding the container).  On the other hand, if the device is recycling energy then the temperature will 

remain unchanged as long as the device maintains steady operation. Or the temperature may drop slightly by an amount equal to any increase in mechanical energy occurring after the container was sealed, or increase slightly by an amount
> equal to any decrease in mechanical energy occurring after the container was sealed.  These scenarios would provide solid proof of whether the energy was be created or recycled.
>
> I strongly suspect that, should any device be made to be self-sustaining, it will be found that it is actually recycling energy.  This will force the 2nd law of T. to revert back to its original form as being merely a law of statistical probability with

out the limiting nature of the current accepted axioms of the law.  This will mean that there exists thermodynamic systems where the state of highest statistical probability DOES NOT correspond to maximum thermal equilibrium but equates rather to non-equi

librium in which "high-order" energy exists.
>
> Allen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:   John Berry [SMTP:antigrav ihug.co.nz]
> Sent:   Thursday, July 09, 1998 1:31 PM
> To:     vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject:        Re: the Minato
>
> Well there are a few way to think about this, One is that the energy coming
> from the device is taking energy from some less obvious source of energy,
> The other is that it is impossible to say that energy can't be created
> because you have not seen it, you can't prove a negative, it is illogical
> to say that just because one situation does not create energy that energy
> can't be created, However even if you found something that appeared to
> create energy and you saw no mechanism for the energy to be coming from
> somewhere else you can't rule it out, The last word is that it IS possible
> to create energy because we have energy now, So that argument may help to
> win the deadlock, It is interesting that except for that argument there is
> a perfect logical deadlock, you can never prove that something could not
> create energy, and a thing that put out energy you could never prove it was
> not coming from somewhere else.
>
> It is interesting that one way to look at it is that energy as always being
> created and destroyed but not transferred, this is true in fact if you look
> at what is happening piece by piece and not taking the large picture, and
> even that way of thinking does not prove that you can create more than you
> destroy or visa versa.
> One last take on this is that there is no such scalar quantity that we call
> energy, that there is no such thing as an equivalent of energy of one type
> to another, just conversion efficiencies, so all you have to do is turn
> energy into another type and turn it back with two different methods
> differing in efficiency, one in the favor of one direction the other in the
> other direction.
>
> Now as for how these magnetic motors work if you look at magnetic motors
> you will see two types that stand out (though I recognize four types), And
> this is one of them, they use an angled magnetic field.
>
> John Berry
>
> James Smith wrote:
>
> > ---Akira Kawasaki  wrote:
> >
> > > The webpage dealing with the Minato Engine has an 'update' of Japan's
> > > "Energy Expo 98" held around early part of '98. The report dated
> > March
> > > 4, 1998, it talks of a tabletop unit with 48 watts in 550 watts out.
> > >
> > > ermillion's literature shows an improvement of the output  which
> > > equated to the "Expo" report, would be 706 watts out for 48 in, a 28%
> > > increase in about 4 months!
> > > There was another, four unmetered connected large units that could
> > > power 30 homes (claimed).
> >
> > This seems to say that it is making energy.  How?
> > Hasn't it been stated that energy can only be transformed?  And if it
> > is transforming energy from the permanent magnets, shouldn't it take
> > too much energy away after a while, so that the magnets would no
> > longer work?  I know I'm new here, but could someone please explain
> > the physics of this thing to me?
> >
> > James Smith
> >
> > _________________________________________________________
> > DO YOU YAHOO!?
> > Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 17:14:52 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19610;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:11:27 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:11:27 -0700
Message-ID: <35A6671F.95A5C44A ihug.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:10:24 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Beyond the Y2K problem
References: <199807081751_MC2-5288-F902 compuserve.com> <35A4E2CA.60AA071C@ariel.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"FSkk22.0.Eo4.kmLfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20429
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Terren Suydam wrote:

> Jed Rothwell wrote:
> >
> > To: Vortex
> >the Mayan calendar

> > predicts the world will end on December 23, 2023.
>
> I believe the Mayan calender ends on that date in 2012.

So do I but his sounds better :-)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 17:25:41 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18686;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:23:00 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:23:00 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A55BEA.D3206B8F darknet.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 20:10:18 -0400
From: Steve <darklord darknet.net>
Organization: DarkNet Online/Digital Fusion
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ad368 lafn.org, KeelyNet <KeelyNet-L@lists.kz>,
        Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Tesla
References: <199807100000.AA20104 lafn.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"E7zZ-.0.tZ4.WxLfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20431
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> Many articles and a number of books have been written about
> Nikola Tesla. One of the best of the books is Prodigal Genius:
> The Life of Nikola Tesla, by John O'Neill. The entire book is
> available at Web page

Hi Jim,

I was a bit tired when I wrote that, and didn't say exactly what I meant
to. heh.. I have
several books written about Tesla, (and have read Prodigal Genius..
excellent book!) and read everything I can find about him on the net..
What I meant to say, is I wish Discovery or something like them, would
do a story on Tesla, because I've found that outside of a small portion
of the scientific community, Tesla is relativly obscure, whereas Edison
is not, just for one example. A lot of people will likely read this
person's story on Farnsworth, and learn something about him.. If they
were to do a story on Tesla, the same thing would happen..

sorry for any confusion. ;)

ttyl
-Steve

p.s. what would be really great, was if A&E, Discovery or TLC did some
shows about
Tesla and his work..
--
     darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616
   DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net
Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 17:24:08 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21395;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:19:26 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:19:26 -0700
From: "Brendan Hall" <brendan mackayallen.com.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Fleischmann's statement . . .
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:29:36 +1000
Message-ID: <000301bdab99$d2a33820$2664a8c0 pc038---brendan>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0
In-Reply-To: <35A53CA9.2597946D math.ucla.edu>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"yr4Qh1.0.DE5.EuLfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20430
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Barry Merriman wrote:


>tokamak fusion reactor -> fundamental effect is fusion of nuclei, the
reality of
which can
>be deduced from the Sun, or in the lab by the scattering experiments that
Rutherform did
>circa 1910.

Rutherford's backscatter experiments used alpha emission to determine the
existence
of the large amount of space inside an atom.  It was nuclear, in fact the
first
measurements taken involving the nucleus alone, but it was nothing to do
with
fusion or fission.

>So, you see, the reality of nuclear fusion and fission were demonstrable
through
>rather simple scattering experiments---certainly far less effort than
building
>a bomb or power plant.

You forget that the questions that they were trying to ask were not the
types of
questions that would seem to have been asked in hindsight.  They were more
open ended,
and as more evidence came to light, the questions became more similar to the
ones
that formed the present theories.  You also forget that many of the
experiments done
were, in their day, extremely sophisticated, such as using bubble chambers
as the
method of measuring decay products.  In our day there is an electronic
device for
nearly every measurement that we care to take, not so in their day - they
had to
invent the instrumentation.  Further, how many quarks are easily measured by
today's
off the shelf equipment?  Simplicity is not always the measure of scientific
evidence.
As Einstein once said regarding theory (paraphrased) - a theory must be
simple, but
complex enough.  (Does anyone remember the full quote?)

Brendan Hall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 17:31:28 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24542;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:27:44 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:27:44 -0700
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:27:54 -0700
Message-Id: <199807100027.RAA18671 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: neutrons
Resent-Message-ID: <"DKzyO3.0.J_5.__Lfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20432
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Ross Tessien wrote:
>
>
>>
>>If you go through the isotopes, you will notice that stable isotopes tend
>to
>>have even numbers of neutrons.  The reason is because neutrons aren't
>really
>>"neutral".  They are just neutral relative to positive and negatively
>>charged particles.
>...............................................................
>
>Ross I don't know where you get all of this stuff from but there is a much
>simpler answer.  Nucleons tend to couple pair wise to form stable
>configurations.  So do electrons.  The coupling of electrons involves the
>magnetic component of the electric force the coupling of nucleons involves the
>"magnetic" component of the strong force.  

>Frank Znidarsic

Greetings Frank;

If I recall, you are in school studying physics right now.  You ask where I
get this stuff.  The answer is it comes from thinking in terms of very
fundamental structures.  More fundamental than the rules you are learning.

consider this:  

A)  Way back when, Ptolemy showed us how we could use equations to predict
the onset of eclipses, retrograde motions of planets, etc.  The proceedure
was so accurate that it was used right up to this century, despite the
advent of Newtonian and then GR.  There was no explanation of "why" planets
demonstrated retrograde motions or why the sun, moon, stars etc had the
periods they did.  Further, if we discovered a new star that was moving
across the sky (planet) we simply added another glass sphere for it to ride
on through the heavens, measured it's period, retrograde motions, and
invented equations to "predict" after the fact, what it would do at other
times in the future.

B)  Today, we think we understand the cosmos and the universe by using a
system of many forces, many fundamental particles, many fundamental
constants of nature.  We claim that these exist, and our only job is to
learn to use the equations that allow us to predict how these things will
behave at some time in the future of an experiment.  But if we discover
today that matter can be accelerated via some brand new force, all we do is
to add another glass shell layer to our physical equations and include that
new force.  We never question "WHY" there ought to be the kinds of forces
there are.

Case in point, recent SN observations that indicate that we need to include
the cosmological constant in GR calculations after all.  This is another force.

Up to the turn of the century, gravitation and EM forces were all there
were.  Then we discovered nuclear forces and voila, we add more "shells" to
our theories.  If tomorrow we discover that neutrinos come in two varieties,
which we might name 90 and 270 for their phase angles relative to positive
and negative charges at 0 and 180 degrees, then we will simply add some new
term like "neutral charge" to go along with the already accepted term
"neutral current".

You see, our present theories do not probe the reasons for the existence of
forces.  There is no way they could because QM asserts that phenomena are
Uncertain, Chaotic, Unknowable.  And they cannot because it is generally
believed that "spacetime" is a "property" of the universe, and not a wave
structure IN, the universe.

You mention the magnetic moment of the electron.  Why does an electron have
a magnetic moment?  Why do you have more than one kind of electron (muon ,
tauon).  Why do you have protons and neutrons?  Why is there a nuclear
strong force?

Now if we were way back when, I could ask, "Why does Mars display a
retrograde motion?".  And today, with your knowledge you could explain that
Mars has a retrograde motion because my primitive Ptolemaic view of the
cosmos is incorrect.  Rather than Mars rotating around the earth on a
celestial sphere, it is instead orbiting the sun, as is the earth, and it is
only our view of the apparent motion of Mars that is confusing me.

I get my ideas from studying the idea that rather than "particles" with
"fields", "spacetime" as a property of the universe and all of those
physical constants, that instead, what we think of as an electron is a
spherical pulsation in and of, aether.  In other words, just a simple
geometry of solitonic standing wave.  I study the idea that spacetime is a
structure of wave energy permeating the universe to which solitons like the
electron are coupled.

And when I do this, it leads me to some new conclusions about the nature of
our universe.  Specifically, if I model particles as solitons, then I am
forced to ascribe the amount of aether associated with a specific solitonic
geometry to be the "mass" of that soliton.  And this results in fusion
reactions, where we think mass is lost as it is converted into energy,
necessarily resulting in the emission of aether from those interacting
"particles".  Thus, I expect aether to be flowing out of stars in proportion
to their reactivity.

This would have to distort the nodal structure of any spacetime wave
topology.  And so I expect some mysterious spacetime distortions, or in
other words, some mysterious accelerations of matter around stars to
manifest due to this flow of aether.

And when you study stars, in every place you would expect the mystery to be
worst, ie where a star just ignited and aether just began to flow, you will
find that indeed, the mystery is amplified.  But our very own sun displays
myriad phenomena that are evidence of this sort of thing.

Well, that is enough for now.  But you can study these ideas at the sub
atomic level (pions being double bubble like muons, quarks being triplets of
muons), or at the cosmological scale and every where you can imagine to look
where something ought to manifest that is not expected by the particle
model, and it is predicted by the aether model, you will find the phenomena
presenting astro physicists with headaches because they cannot fit their
models to the observations.

Simply put, I am positive that the physics you are studying is incorrect on
a very fundamental point:

The property of the universe that gives rise to "mass" in material
particles, does not disappear when matter fuses and the remaining particles
are accelerated.  Rather, the aether that was the mass of those solitons,
was shot out of the path of least confinement in the direction of mutual
interference of the departing solitons, and the resulting solitons were
accelerated in a recoil fashion just like a rocket ship shooting out some of
it's fuel.

Now you will realize that you have been taught that you are not supposed to
ask questions about "HOW" particles go through the process of fusing.  That
is because physics today gives no geometry or structure to sub atomic matter
down to the Planck scale.

Well, I hope that explains where my ideas come from.  They come from
thinking in a very fundamental manner, that physicists today have not
attempted due to their prejudice in favor of QM which advocates
"Uncertainty" as a "principle".

Ross Tessien






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 17:52:49 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24347;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:49:55 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:49:55 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A66E58.D426CB16 ihug.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:41:13 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Tractebel Energy Marketing <guest@tractebelusa.com>
Subject: Re: the Minato
References: <01BDAB37.D10BBBC0 209-113-17-90.insync.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id RAA24220
Resent-Message-ID: <"GS6zN1.0.6y5.jKMfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20433
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Fixed the word-wrap problem:


Try this one on if you think that the thermodynamics people had it right.

Imagine a spherical body (it could be any shape though) that was emitting EM radiation due to it's heat (could be hot as the sun or as a human, in fact why not imagine the sun), Now all around the sun (body) have a complex array of mirrors that reflect an

d focus (with the help of lenses) the suns light into a thin beam and direct it back at one point on the sun, now you have a situation where there is a separation of hot and cold or in this case hot and hotter,
The part where all the suns energy is focused is now hotter and processes could be used to turn that heat into other types of energy, this is breaking a law thermodynamics because light can be focuses and can 'run up hill' so you need to see that what can

 be applied to heat should not be applied to everything, Heat does not act the same as everything so don't limit other things by what you believe heat is limited to, note an orgone accumulator breaks laws of thermodynamics also, Laws by conventional scien

tists are totally wrong,
relativity is more stuffed up side the head than any, I can give you three reasons why it does not work and another as to how it can produce FE!!!

Sorry for the long rant, Just ask and I will tell you about that relativity stuff.


John Berry

Tractebel Energy Marketing wrote:

> Whether the source of energy is "created" (defying the 1st law of T.) or recycled (defying the 2nd law of T.) will be easily proved for a device that is self-sustaining.  Simply enclose and seal the running self-sustaining device inside a well-insulated

 container (Dewar's flask quality would be best) equipped with an accurate method for monitoring the temperature inside the container.  If the device is creating energy then the container temperature will rise steadily until either the device overheats or

 the rate of heat loss from the container equals the rate of energy production in which case the temperature will stabilize (above that of the air surrounding the container).  On the other hand, if the device is recycling energy then the temperature will 

remain unchanged as long as the device maintains steady operation. Or the temperature may drop slightly by an amount equal to any increase in mechanical energy occurring after the container was sealed, or increase slightly by an!
>  amount equal to any decrease in mechanical energy occurring after the container was sealed.  These scenarios would provide solid proof of whether the energy was be created or recycled.
>
> I strongly suspect that, should any device be made to be self-sustaining, it will be found that it is actually recycling energy.  This will force the 2nd law of T. to revert back to its original form as being merely a law of statistical probability with

out the limiting nature of the current accepted axioms of the law.  This will mean that there exists thermodynamic systems where the state of highest statistical probability DOES NOT correspond to maximum thermal equilibrium but equates rather to non-equi

librium in which "high-order" energy exists.
>
> Allen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:   John Berry [SMTP:antigrav ihug.co.nz]
> Sent:   Thursday, July 09, 1998 1:31 PM
> To:     vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject:        Re: the Minato
>
> Well there are a few way to think about this, One is that the energy coming
> from the device is taking energy from some less obvious source of energy,
> The other is that it is impossible to say that energy can't be created
> because you have not seen it, you can't prove a negative, it is illogical
> to say that just because one situation does not create energy that energy
> can't be created, However even if you found something that appeared to
> create energy and you saw no mechanism for the energy to be coming from
> somewhere else you can't rule it out, The last word is that it IS possible
> to create energy because we have energy now, So that argument may help to
> win the deadlock, It is interesting that except for that argument there is
> a perfect logical deadlock, you can never prove that something could not
> create energy, and a thing that put out energy you could never prove it was
> not coming from somewhere else.
>
> It is interesting that one way to look at it is that energy as always being
> created and destroyed but not transferred, this is true in fact if you look
> at what is happening piece by piece and not taking the large picture, and
> even that way of thinking does not prove that you can create more than you
> destroy or visa versa.
> One last take on this is that there is no such scalar quantity that we call
> energy, that there is no such thing as an equivalent of energy of one type
> to another, just conversion efficiencies, so all you have to do is turn
> energy into another type and turn it back with two different methods
> differing in efficiency, one in the favor of one direction the other in the
> other direction.
>
> Now as for how these magnetic motors work if you look at magnetic motors
> you will see two types that stand out (though I recognize four types), And
> this is one of them, they use an angled magnetic field.
>
> John Berry
>
> James Smith wrote:
>
> > ---Akira Kawasaki  wrote:
> >
> > > The webpage dealing with the Minato Engine has an 'update' of Japan's
> > > "Energy Expo 98" held around early part of '98. The report dated
> > March
> > > 4, 1998, it talks of a tabletop unit with 48 watts in 550 watts out.
> > >
> > > ermillion's literature shows an improvement of the output  which
> > > equated to the "Expo" report, would be 706 watts out for 48 in, a 28%
> > > increase in about 4 months!
> > > There was another, four unmetered connected large units that could
> > > power 30 homes (claimed).
> >
> > This seems to say that it is making energy.  How?
> > Hasn't it been stated that energy can only be transformed?  And if it
> > is transforming energy from the permanent magnets, shouldn't it take
> > too much energy away after a while, so that the magnets would no
> > longer work?  I know I'm new here, but could someone please explain
> > the physics of this thing to me?
> >
> > James Smith
> >
> > _________________________________________________________
> > DO YOU YAHOO!?
> > Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 18:02:26 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00205;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:59:49 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:59:49 -0700
Message-ID: <008601bdab9d$8fcf8900$7d8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Los Alamos Neutron Science Center (http://www.lansce.lanl.gov/)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:54:28 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BDAB6B.003278C0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"JMTil3.0.63.5UMfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20435
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BDAB6B.003278C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Neutrons Etc.

http://www.lansce.lanl.gov/

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BDAB6B.003278C0
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="Los Alamos Neutron Science Center.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Los Alamos Neutron Science Center.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.lansce.lanl.gov/
Modified=00A9C8359DABBD01AC

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BDAB6B.003278C0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 18:03:39 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00227;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:59:51 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:59:51 -0700
Message-ID: <008701bdab9d$90dc1700$7d8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Neutron Scattering at the High Flux Isotope Reactor (http://neutrons.ornl.gov/)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:55:30 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01BDAB6B.25301380"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"rIduF2.0.T3.6UMfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20436
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BDAB6B.25301380
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



http://neutrons.ornl.gov/

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BDAB6B.25301380
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="Neutron Scattering at the High Flux Isotope Reactor.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Neutron Scattering at the High Flux Isotope Reactor.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://neutrons.ornl.gov/
Modified=80C240659DABBD01ED

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BDAB6B.25301380--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 18:04:41 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00177;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:59:45 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 17:59:45 -0700
Message-ID: <008501bdab9d$8ea16940$7d8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: CERN NA55 (aka NYMPH) Home Page (http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~songhoon/Nymph/Nym
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:53:33 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BDAB6A.DF4B9EC0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"4d_jv1.0.Y2.0UMfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20434
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BDAB6A.DF4B9EC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Neutrons Etc.

http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~songhoon/Nymph/Nymph.html

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BDAB6A.DF4B9EC0
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="CERN NA55 (aka NYMPH) Home Page.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="CERN NA55 (aka NYMPH) Home Page.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~songhoon/Nymph/Nymph.html
Modified=6005AD0D9DABBD0125

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BDAB6A.DF4B9EC0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 18:09:21 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02687;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:05:14 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:05:14 -0700
Message-ID: <35A673BC.811DA18B ihug.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:04:13 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Tractebel Energy Marketing <guest tractebelusa.com>,
        "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: the Minato
References: <01BDAB37.D10BBBC0 209-113-17-90.insync.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA02661
Resent-Message-ID: <"PEHyu2.0.vf.9ZMfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20437
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Sorry, got to figure this problem (does not happen when I post to myself) it should be word wrap this time.


Try this one on if you think that the thermodynamics people had it right.

Imagine a spherical body (it could be any shape though) that was emitting EM radiation due to it's heat (could be hot as the sun or as a human, in fact why not imagine the sun), Now all around the sun (body) have a complex array of mirrors that reflect an

d focus (with the help of lenses) the suns light into a thin beam and direct it back at one point on the sun, now you have a situation where there is a separation of hot and cold or in this case hot and hotter.
The part where all the suns energy is focused is now hotter and processes could be used to turn that heat into other types of energy, this is breaking a law thermodynamics because light can be focuses and can 'run up hill' so you need to see that what can

 be applied to heat should not be applied to everything, Heat does not act the same as everything so don't limit other things by what you believe heat is limited to, note an orgone accumulator breaks laws of thermodynamics also, Laws byconventional scient

ists are totally wrong, relativity is more stuffed up side the head than any, I can give you three reasons why it does not work and another as to how it can produce FE!!!

Sorry for the long rant, Just ask and I will tell you about that relativity stuff.


John Berry

Tractebel Energy Marketing wrote:

> Whether the source of energy is "created" (defying the 1st law of T.) or recycled (defying the 2nd law of T.) will be easily proved for a device that is self-sustaining.  Simply enclose and seal the running self-sustaining device inside a well-insulated

 container (Dewar's flask quality would be best) equipped with an accurate method for monitoring the temperature inside the container.  If the device is creating energy then the container temperature will rise steadily until either the device overheats or

 the rate of heat loss from the container equals the rate of energy production in which case the temperature will stabilize (above that of the air surrounding the container).  On the other hand, if the device is recycling energy then the temperature will 

remain unchanged as long as the device maintains steady operation. Or the temperature may drop slightly by an amount equal to any increase in mechanical energy occurring after the container was sealed, or increase slightly by an amount
> equal to any decrease in mechanical energy occurring after the container was sealed.  These scenarios would provide solid proof of whether the energy was be created or recycled.
>
> I strongly suspect that, should any device be made to be self-sustaining, it will be found that it is actually recycling energy.  This will force the 2nd law of T. to revert back to its original form as being merely a law of statistical probability with

out the limiting nature of the current accepted axioms of the law.  This will mean that there exists thermodynamic systems where the state of highest statistical probability DOES NOT correspond to maximum thermal equilibrium but equates rather to non-equi

librium in which "high-order" energy exists.
>
> Allen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:   John Berry [SMTP:antigrav ihug.co.nz]
> Sent:   Thursday, July 09, 1998 1:31 PM
> To:     vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject:        Re: the Minato
>
> Well there are a few way to think about this, One is that the energy coming
> from the device is taking energy from some less obvious source of energy,
> The other is that it is impossible to say that energy can't be created
> because you have not seen it, you can't prove a negative, it is illogical
> to say that just because one situation does not create energy that energy
> can't be created, However even if you found something that appeared to
> create energy and you saw no mechanism for the energy to be coming from
> somewhere else you can't rule it out, The last word is that it IS possible
> to create energy because we have energy now, So that argument may help to
> win the deadlock, It is interesting that except for that argument there is
> a perfect logical deadlock, you can never prove that something could not
> create energy, and a thing that put out energy you could never prove it was
> not coming from somewhere else.
>
> It is interesting that one way to look at it is that energy as always being
> created and destroyed but not transferred, this is true in fact if you look
> at what is happening piece by piece and not taking the large picture, and
> even that way of thinking does not prove that you can create more than you
> destroy or visa versa.
> One last take on this is that there is no such scalar quantity that we call
> energy, that there is no such thing as an equivalent of energy of one type
> to another, just conversion efficiencies, so all you have to do is turn
> energy into another type and turn it back with two different methods
> differing in efficiency, one in the favor of one direction the other in the
> other direction.
>
> Now as for how these magnetic motors work if you look at magnetic motors
> you will see two types that stand out (though I recognize four types), And
> this is one of them, they use an angled magnetic field.
>
> John Berry
>
> James Smith wrote:
>
> > ---Akira Kawasaki  wrote:
> >
> > > The webpage dealing with the Minato Engine has an 'update' of Japan's
> > > "Energy Expo 98" held around early part of '98. The report dated
> > March
> > > 4, 1998, it talks of a tabletop unit with 48 watts in 550 watts out.
> > >
> > > ermillion's literature shows an improvement of the output  which
> > > equated to the "Expo" report, would be 706 watts out for 48 in, a 28%
> > > increase in about 4 months!
> > > There was another, four unmetered connected large units that could
> > > power 30 homes (claimed).
> >
> > This seems to say that it is making energy.  How?
> > Hasn't it been stated that energy can only be transformed?  And if it
> > is transforming energy from the permanent magnets, shouldn't it take
> > too much energy away after a while, so that the magnets would no
> > longer work?  I know I'm new here, but could someone please explain
> > the physics of this thing to me?
> >
> > James Smith
> >
> > _________________________________________________________
> > DO YOU YAHOO!?
> > Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 18:24:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00582;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:21:47 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:21:47 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A568AB.7C6D skylink.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 18:04:43 -0700
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"fhqqr.0.z8.eoMfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20438
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

The far-fields of an AC current loop dipole are solved by Oleg 
Jefimenko in his textbook "Electricity and Magnetism" [1].
Jefimenko's solution contains a radiating longitudinal wave, 
along with the conventional transverse EM dipole radiation field. 
The near fields, which vary as 1/r^3, are dropped from the far-field 
solution.

The far field solution consists of two parts. The conventional transverse 
E and H radiation field, which drops off as 1/r, and propagates primarily in 
the spacial direction orthogonal to the dipole vector. And a longitudinal 
wave solution which consists solely of an H field, propagating in a 
direction spacially orthogonal to the conventional radiation fields, 
(i.e. along the direction of the dipole vector). The longitudinal wave 
consists solely of an H field in the radial direction, which drops off 
as 1/r^2.  The longitudinal component of the far-field is of the form:

  (H/r^2)(cos(omega.t - r/c)(cos(theta))R     where,

H is a constant related to the source current and the antenna 
size, r is the radial distance, omega is the angular frequency, 
theta is the angle measured from the direction of the axis of the 
current loop (i.e. in the direction of the dipole vector, theta = 0, 
and in the direction of the transverse radiation wave, theta = Pi), 
and R is the radial unit vector.  

The transverse 1/r dipole radiation field varies as sin(theta), and is 
zero in the direction of the dipole vector -- where the longitudinal wave 
is maximum. The above equation represents a wave traveling at velocity
c in the radial direction, which consists solely of a time varying H 
field, with the H field existing only in the radial direction. Along
the radial distance in the direction of the axis of the dipole loop, 
there are no transverse field components, and no time varying E field.. 

The major theme of Jefimenko's work is derivation of electromagnetic 
theory based on use of retarded source equations. As such, there is
a presumption in the longitudinal wave solution. In presuming the
wave is retarded, a traveling wave solution is presented. The issue 
of how this wave propagates is not addressed. 

How does it propagate? According to Maxwells equations, it can not. 
Two problems. The longitudinal wave equation violates Maxwells 
divergence equation, and there is no mode for momentum and 
energy flow (i.e. zero Poynting vector). 

The longitudinal wave solution violates Maxwells third equation,
divB = 0.  The wave equation contains two factors which vary with
the radial distance -- 1/r^2, and the spacial phase factor cos(r/c).  
The first factor, just as in the static coulomb field, or any 1/r^2 field
in the radial direction, is in effect a result of Maxwells divergence 
equation. However, in the case of a radial field, any other factors which 
vary with r, result in a non-zero divergence.

The issue of momentum and energy flow is also curious. There is
a time varying magnetic energy in the longitudinal field, yet there is 
no energy flow -- zero momentum. How does the energy get out there?

Three possible resolutions are suggested:

 1. The longitudinal wave is not retarded. It does not propagate, but has a 
    time a varying phase which is identical at all points in the r direction, 
    with a resulting magnitude which depends only on time and 1/r^2. In other 
    words, instantaneous action at a distance. 

 2. Or, there are spacially induced magnetic charges in the vacuum, which
    move with the wave. This resolves the divergence problem, but only
    if local monopole charges exist in the vacuum. Over space these 
    charges would be a dipole string, but over a local distance of lambda/2,
    a monopole charge.  Maxwells third equation would be modified to  
    divB = magnetic charge density.  Energy flow is still a problem. 
    Possibly electric vacuum charges are also induced by the longitudinal 
    wave, resulting in  E and H fields which resolve the momentum problem.
    Or momentum in the longitudinal wave is described by something 
    other than the conventional Poynting vector. 

 3. Or, for some other unidentified reason, the longitudinal wave is not
    subject to Maxwells divergence equation, and does not require a 
    crossed E and H field for energy flow. 

Personally, I guess it is the second of the above. A topological evolution 
of Maxwells equations from S(1) symmetry to SU(2) symmetry, possibly 
such as that presented by Barrett [2], permits a propagation mode for 
longitudinal waves. Whatever the case -- be it an unidentified propagation 
mode or instantaneous action at a distance, it might be that the longitudinal 
wave travels at a velocity which is different than a transverse EM wave.  

The longitudinal wave velocity can be experimentally measured. There is
a substantial amount of equipment available (RF signal generators, power 
amplifiers, dipole antennas, field measuring instruments, etc), which has 
been developed for use by the cellular radio-telephone industry for frequencies 
in the area of 1.8 to 2 GHz. It seems a practical matter to measure the wave 
speed (phase delay) of  the longitudinal H field in the spacial direction 
orthogonal to the direction of conventional radiation. 

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

===================
References

1. Electricity and Magnetism, Oleg Jefimenko, Electret Scientific Company, 
   Star City WV,  Example problems 15-7.1 and 15-8.2, pages 517-522.
   ISBN 0-917406-08-1

2. Electromagnetic Phenomena Not Explained by Maxwells Equations, Terrence
   W. Barret, From: Essays on the Formal Aspects of Electromagnetic Theory, 
   Akhlesh Lakhtakia - Editor, World Scientific Publishing Company, pages 6-86.  
   ISBN 981-02-0854-5

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 19:07:36 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15601;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:02:52 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:02:52 -0700
Message-ID: <35A68145.18FD75EE ihug.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:01:58 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Test-Delete
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Wqi5V3.0.hp3.CPNfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20439
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Test, just delete

Sorry, got to figure this problem (does not happen when I post to
myself) it should be word wrap this time.


Try this one on if you think that the thermodynamics people had it
right.

Imagine a spherical body (it could be any shape though) that was
emitting EM radiation due to it's heat (could be hot as the sun or as a
human, in fact why not imagine the sun), Now all around the sun (body)
have a complex array of mirrors that reflect and focus (with the help of
lenses) the suns light into a thin beam and direct it back at one point
on the sun, now you have a situation where there is a separation of hot
and cold or in this case hot and hotter.
The part where all the suns energy is focused is now hotter and
processes could be used to turn that heat into other types of energy,
this is breaking a law thermodynamics because light can be focuses and
can 'run up hill' so you need to see that what can be applied to heat
should not be applied to everything, Heat does not act the same as
everything so don't limit other things by what you believe heat is
limited to, note an orgone accumulator breaks laws of thermodynamics
also, Laws by conventional scientists are totally wrong, relativity is
more stuffed up side the head than any, I can give you three reasons why
it does not work and another as to how it can produce FE!!!

Sorry for the long rant, Just ask and I will tell you about that
relativity stuff.


John Berry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 19:38:44 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13102;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:36:46 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:36:46 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A57CA4.25A1 interlaced.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 22:29:56 -0400
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
References: <35A568AB.7C6D skylink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ukeee2.0.dC3.wuNfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20440
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Robert Stirniman wrote:
> 
(snip interesting review)

> The longitudinal wave velocity can be experimentally measured. There is
> a substantial amount of equipment available (RF signal generators, power
> amplifiers, dipole antennas, field measuring instruments, etc), which has
> been developed for use by the cellular radio-telephone industry for frequencies
> in the area of 1.8 to 2 GHz. It seems a practical matter to measure the wave
> speed (phase delay) of  the longitudinal H field in the spacial direction
> orthogonal to the direction of conventional radiation.

OK, Robert, but considering the untold billions of bucks the military
has spent on EM propagation research, if you can come up with a fool-
proof way to quantify such a wave, you're going to have men-in-black
swarming all over you like ants on a candy bar!  Better get some "Raid"
handy!

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 20:02:26 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA31423;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:59:21 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:59:21 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980709230911.007ee100 cnct.com>
X-Sender: knagel cnct.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 23:09:14 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel cnct.com>
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"mixOp2.0.vg7.9EOfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20441
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Robert & Frank. 

>The longitudinal wave velocity can be experimentally measured. There is
>a substantial amount of equipment available (RF signal generators, power 
>amplifiers, dipole antennas, field measuring instruments, etc), which has 
>been developed for use by the cellular radio-telephone industry for
frequencies 
>in the area of 1.8 to 2 GHz. It seems a practical matter to measure the wave 
>speed (phase delay) of  the longitudinal H field in the spacial direction 
>orthogonal to the direction of conventional radiation. 

Well, if I understand this post correctly you are describing
a TE type wave, pretty well understood by conventional E&M.
Such a wave does not really require a cavity, the near
field of a dipole has enough interference to generate the
mode. It carrys no energy, as the underlying tranverse
waves do that. The interference of these waves in space
generates the standing H field pattern. Of course, as
measured perpendicular to the propagation of the TEM wave,
the velocity is infinite. But to the best of my experimental
efforts this mode can carry no signal faster than C (it's
a resonance effect) But if I'm not getting you here, please
elaborate.

Remember, it's !real! easy to create any frequency to
wavelength relationship you like if you interfere
waves in space. But what really carrys the energy?
By the way, if you plan on experimenting here, think
bigger. You'll not be able to make absolute time delay
measurements at those frequencies very easily. It's
reasonable to do experiments in a space the size of
the ordinary suburban back yard, even a large apartment
if you have the RF technique down and a good scope.
But ever try scoping microwaves :^)

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 21:29:42 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17323;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:25:22 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:25:22 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980710002213.007d6960 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 00:22:13 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: vorts at ICCF-7
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"LRIuZ2.0.VE4.nUPfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20442
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


  Vorts:

  BTW, many vorts attended ICCF7.  I put a color pic
of one of the vort conference tables on the web at
http://world.std.com/~mica/cfttime.html#cft63

    Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 21:43:04 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06805;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:39:32 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:39:32 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980710001933.007d5410 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 00:19:33 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Fleischmann's statement . . .
In-Reply-To: <199807091639_MC2-52A5-B41 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"3cgJ.0.Fg1._hPfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20443
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 04:36 PM 7/9/98 -0400, Jed wrote:

> Beginning in the
>late 1970s, electrochemical theorists have postulated that under the right
>circumstances, pressure might reach 10^23 atm, greater than the core of a
>neutron star. 

  No.  The theoretical predictions of the Nernst equation
with fugacity considered do not hold to that pressure.
Issues of what "activity" really involves, equilibrium,
and other physical matters dominate.  

  You might read H. Uhlig, either his electrochemistry book, or
Corrosion and Corrosion control.

  Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 21:56:22 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08562;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:48:29 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:48:29 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980710001611.007d86e0 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 00:16:11 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Fleischmann's statement . . .
In-Reply-To: <35A53CA9.2597946D math.ucla.edu>
References: <199807091538_MC2-52A5-4F7 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"hpy2x1.0.e52.PqPfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20444
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


  At 02:56 PM 7/9/98 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote:

> What is totally absent is a similar robust experiment
>that MERELY demonstrates that "cold fusion" exists, ignoring whether it
can ever
>be converted to a useful technology.   Until such an experiment is found,
"cold
>fusion" will remain a scientific outcast.


  Many experiments have confirmed that cold fusion exists.

  To skeptics firmly entrenched, no paper, no research, will
suffice.  To them, mainly of the hot fusion community, cold
fusion will remain an "outcast", perhaps because of its potential interference
to the money flow to hot fusion which appears to have less basis for
reality.
  
   Meanwhile ANS and APS and ICCF etc. meetings and
technical publications will continue as the scientists and researchers
in the field further explore and develop systematized knowledge
concerning cold fusion.  

    Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 22:15:10 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28896;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 22:11:33 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 22:11:33 -0700
Message-ID: <35A5A052.6F77 skylink.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 22:02:10 -0700
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
References: <35A568AB.7C6D skylink.net> <35A57CA4.25A1@interlaced.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ucudC1.0.N37.4AQfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20445
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Francis J. Stenger wrote:
> OK, Robert, but considering the untold billions of bucks the military
> has spent on EM propagation research, if you can come up with a fool-
> proof way to quantify such a wave, you're going to have men-in-black
> swarming all over you like ants on a candy bar!  Better get some "Raid"
> handy!

Very funny. Fuck-em if they can't take a joke.
But, in my opinion it is no joke. One can make a
case that knowledege of longitdudintal waves has been 
suppressed from human beings for over hundred years.
By whom? Don't ask.

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 22:53:50 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03467;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 22:49:13 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 22:49:13 -0700
Message-ID: <35A59DEA.2279 earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 23:51:54 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Kennel: html version ICCF-7 critique 05/08/98
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"bjpnd1.0.5s.PjQfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20446
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Received: from rmforall.earthlink.net (1Cust235.tnt23.dfw5.da.uu.net [208.254.197.235])
	by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06949;
	Wed, 13 May 1998 14:44:00 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <355A0659.E0D earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:45:13 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Kennel: html version ICCF-7 critique 05/08/98
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Received: from repulse.concentric.net (repulse.concentric.net [207.155.248.4])
	by belize.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA13900
	for <rmforall earthlink.net>; Mon, 11 May 1998 07:04:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from spaworks.com (ts019d35.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.18.191])
	by repulse.concentric.net (8.8.5/)
	id KAA12659; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:04:47 -0400 (EDT)
	[ConcentricHost SMTP Relay]
Errors-To: <stacey spaworks.com>
Message-ID: <3557143F.81CD4A68 spaworks.com>
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:07:43 -0700
From: Stacey Yates <stacey spaworks.com>
Organization: Emerald Lake Software
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Richard Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Subject: oh...this way easy
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<HTML>
Sorry for the delay Richard...I am off to New Orleans...Love to you!! Stacey

<P>Subject: ICCF-7 Conference Report

<P>Author:&nbsp; Elliot Kennel, Ekennel Apsci.com, Ekennel@Compuserve.com

<P>&nbsp;I attended the 7th International Conference on Cold Fusion (ICCF-7),
April 19-24, 1998.&nbsp; The proceedings are not yet out, so my comments
are a bit tentative as they are based on my notes and memory.
<BR>&nbsp;I think that the conference itself was wonderfully organized
(thanks to Fred Jaeger et al at ENECO).&nbsp; They correctly recognized
that cold fusion scientists tend to be workaholics, and so amusements were
kept to a minimum, and sessions plus workshops allowed a maximum of technical
exchange.&nbsp; The format, with only a few oral presentations but very
strong poster sessions worked very well.&nbsp; In past years, split sessions
were tried but many people wanted to attend multiple topics.&nbsp; At any
conference, most of the action is out in the hall anyway, so the poster
sessions tended to promote that sort of thing.&nbsp; So I think the format
was nearly perfect.
<BR>&nbsp;There were a few results which I find encouraging and which possibly
indicate that some important discoveries are being made.&nbsp; On the whole,
however, I confess that I have become increasingly skeptical about the
major claims which have been made in the cold fusion community.&nbsp; Specifically,
while in Japan at the New Hydrogen Energy Laboratory from 1996-1998, I
was involved in several experiments which appeared to give positive results
in excess heat, tritium, helium and transmutations, but further investigation
always showed that the results were likely due to some artifact, and not
to a true anomaly.&nbsp; Accordingly, I wonder if&nbsp; others are also
producing artifacts and not recognizing it, or could it be that they are
producing real results while I am failing to discern the difference between
my experiments and theirs? Anyway, my personal standard of proof is very
high these days.

<P>Excess Heat

<P>&nbsp;In the area of excess heat, during my time in Japan I was troubled
by the observation that a single experiment could produce excess heat as
measured by an isoperibolic calorimeter, but simultaneously produce zero
excess heat as measured by a mass flow calorimeter.&nbsp; I interpret the
effect as follows:&nbsp; at high deuterium loading, a state change occurs
in the surface of the cathode which causes the open-circuit voltage (as
well as the voltage under load) to increase.&nbsp; Under this condition,
there is a higher percentage of thermal energy generated at the cathode,
and less in the electrolyte.&nbsp; This changes the calibration coefficient
of the cell and results in an excess heat signal.&nbsp; Many researchers
have observed the loss of excess heat upon switching from isoperibolic
calorimetry to mass flow calorimetry (including NHE Lab and the IMRA Japan
group).
<BR>&nbsp;Ed Storms, a key proponent of the excess heat effect and a brilliant
researcher whom I have known and respected since the early 1980s, has built
a dual calorimeter system and sees the same effect.&nbsp; His interpretation
is that the artifact problem does exist, and thus excess heat values of
~10% should be ignored, but higher values are probably due to an actual
(nuclear) anomaly.&nbsp; Storms thinks that excess heat results of ~50%
are too high to be explained by the artifact&nbsp; observed at NHE Lab.&nbsp;
However, my view is that isoperibolic calorimeters have been shown to be
unreliable for measuring excess heat in electrolytic cells in which the
electrode surfaces are changing, and so I am skeptical of all excess heat
data which depends on isoperibolic calorimetry, even for very good setups.&nbsp;
This disagreement has not been resolved yet.
<BR>&nbsp;In Japan, we also found errors in the design of the mass flow
calorimeter for the Frascati electromigration cell.&nbsp; The problem was
the estimation of the heat leakage in the calorimeter.&nbsp; The heat leakage
was underestimated, so that when the cell was run at a temperature colder
than the surroundings, it appeared to generate excess heat.&nbsp; The difference
between deuterium and hydrogen is that the electrical resistance is different,
which changes the losses.&nbsp; The device produced no excess heat despite
the best efforts of Dr. Paolo Tripodi (who, by the way, I consider to be
a highly competent engineer).&nbsp; Dr. Francesco Celani also visited us,
and as far as I know agrees that the device sent to Japan produced no excess
heat.&nbsp; Celani also told me that he agrees with my previous criticism
of the electromigration effect on theoretical grounds (namely, the formulation
he used last year depends upon an infinite medium approximation, whereas
the long thin wire he uses in electrolysis will be much more strongly affected
by electrolysis rather than electromigration.&nbsp; Thus, his cell works
via pulsed electrolysis, and the electromigration effect is negligible).&nbsp;
Nevertheless, his papers seem to gloss over these problems.
<BR>&nbsp;Unfortunately, CETI did not present much at the conference.&nbsp;
CETI is famous for their claim about reproducible excess heat.&nbsp; Although
I have only a passing familiarity with the system, I am still skeptical
about whether mass flow calorimetry is really reliable with a two phase,
electrochemically reactive working fluid.&nbsp; It seems to me likely that
the excess temperature effect is real, but perhaps the presence of gas
bubbles in the electrolyte (which occurs as soon as the cathode is loaded)
may make it difficult to measure the actual density, volumetric flow rate,
specific heat and chemical enthalpy change (assumed to be zero) of the
working fluid.&nbsp; So I think it is very likely an excess temperature
device, but I am unwilling to believe in excess energy until I see a “normal”
calorimeter read the same thing.
<BR>&nbsp;Martin Fleischmann continues to emphasize that a positive temperature
coefficient is mandatory in order to see excess heat effects.&nbsp; His
notion is that the NHE laboratory work may have been effective at obtaining
very high loading, but it is not sufficient to produce excess heat.&nbsp;
Positive thermal feedback is also necessary, and is provided by the isoperibolic
calorimeter.&nbsp; Thus, Fleischmann regards the calorimeter as an active
part of the device, rather than a passive measurement tool.&nbsp; There
is also a long-standing dispute between Fleischmann and the NHE lab guys
over the differential equations which are used to describe the calorimeter.&nbsp;
Using Fleischmann’s equations, there appears to be excess heat in several
samples.&nbsp; However, the NHE group argued (I think it was ICCF-5, to
which I don’t have immediate access, so I can’t cite the specific reference)
that Fleischmann’s methods led to erroneous results.&nbsp;&nbsp; For my
part, however, I am more concerned because calorimeters of the type used
by Fleischmann have been shown (to my satisfaction, at least) to give false
positives at high loading due to the electrochemical state change which
apparently occurs.&nbsp; This fact overrides Fleischmann’s reassuring rationale
that the isoperibolic calorimeter provides temperature feedback needed
to make the cold fusion effect switch on.&nbsp; Then there are other problems
associated with open cell calorimetry which have been cited by numerous
critics.&nbsp; I do not understand why he does not use the closed cycle
type of calorimeter used by Storms and others.
<BR>&nbsp;If excess heat is going to be recognized as a scientific fact,
it needs to be demonstrated in a rigorous, unambiguous way.&nbsp; Tiny
amounts of heat, the existence of which depends on several PhDs in mechanical
engineering arguing about hair-splitting differences between the differential
equations to describe an imperfect calorimeter, just isn’t convincing.&nbsp;
The argument that ureliable instrumentation is a mandatory requirement
for seeing an anomaly is likewise troublesome.&nbsp; At best it is ambiguous,
at worst it is simply wrong.
<BR>&nbsp;Some interesting data was presented by a little-known researcher,&nbsp;
Dr. L. C. Case, who used his a priori knowledge about chemical catalysis
combined with an Edisonian approach to studying materials, to identify
several material combinations which produce apparent excess heat.&nbsp;
Case claims that Pd and other metals works well on activated charcoal.&nbsp;
He seems very open and willing to share his data, which will simplify evaluation
by others.&nbsp; I think he’s a longshot, but I like his style.
<BR>&nbsp;The DeNinno group in Italy continues to make innovations in loading
techniques.&nbsp; The finding that an electric current enhances gas loading
is quite peculiar, and indicates that there is some unusual electrochemical
behavior taking place.&nbsp; Similarly, Storms is continuing to advocate
that open circuit voltage must be measured as a way of determining the
loading characteristics of the cell.&nbsp; I wonder if these results can
be connected in some way.

<P>Transmutation

<P>&nbsp;Since the last conference, many persons have gotten very excited
about the possibility of transmutation reactions and isotope shifts.&nbsp;
Some of the data looks more convincing than others.
<BR>&nbsp;Some claims are made on the basis of the following rationale:

<P>&nbsp;a.&nbsp; The system is known to be very clean.

<P>&nbsp;b.&nbsp; Impurities are found on the cathode.

<P>&nbsp;c.&nbsp; Since the system is clean, the impurities must be due
to a nuclear reaction.

<P>&nbsp;This seems very weak to me, since it is impossible to show that
the system was really clean before the experiment.&nbsp; Moreover, electrolysis
cells are often used to clean up liquid waste streams, because all positive
ions plate out on the cathode.&nbsp; So the fact that a few milligrams
of positive ionic crud appears on the cathode, is not surprising to me.
<BR>&nbsp;The presence of isotopic shift seems much more important.&nbsp;
If the cathodic crud is always the same abundance as normal material, it
is very likely chemical contamination, since the cold fusion process, whatever
it is, is highly implausible that it would just happen to mimic the ultrahigh
energy bombardment and subsequent radioactive decay from the creation of
the universe during the Big Bang (unless the universe was created by cold
fusion instead—of course that assumption ups the ante for cold fusion quite
a bit).&nbsp; On the other hand, if there is an unnatural isotope shift,
this is difficult (though not impossible—see below) to achieve via normal
chemical processes.
<BR>&nbsp;Some comment is necessary on potential errors in isotope identification.&nbsp;
Secondary Ion Mass Spectroscopy (SIMS) is a technique used by many investigators.&nbsp;
However, there are different types of SIMS,&nbsp; ranging from completely
useless to marginally useful but often misleading.
<BR>&nbsp;With low-res SIMS, it is not possible to separate molecules from
atoms.&nbsp; Thus Mass 102 could be Pd-102, Ru-102, or it might be something
like Al2O3.&nbsp;&nbsp; So everything appears isotope shifted in low res
SIMS.&nbsp; At higher res, most of the apparent shifts are no longer seen,
but some persist.&nbsp; Ru-104 and Pd-104 are examples of elemental interference
which is very difficult to overcome.&nbsp; A good state of the art machine
can obtain an m/?m of over 6000, but the m/?m rating required to separate
Ru-104 and Pd-104 is about 75,000.
<BR>&nbsp;High-res SIMS is subject to other errors, particularly in non-uniform
surfaces (which includes many electrolysis surfaces) because of the SIMS
relative sensitivity factor (RSF) which is isotope dependent, and which
also depends on the identity of the neighboring atom. The ability to translate
SIMS observations to the original concentration of the observed ions is
dependent upon the ability to obtain RSF for the element in question.

<P>&nbsp;IR/Cr = RSFI (II/CI)

<P>where IR is the intensity of secondary ions from the reference atom,
usually the majority atom in the target; CR is the concentration of reference
atoms in the target; Ii is the secondary ion intensity of the ith element
atoms in the target, and Ci is the concentration of the ith element atoms
in the target.
<BR>&nbsp;For many problems, the RSF of the matrix is constant, and the
other atoms are present only as slight impurities of the host matrix.&nbsp;
In this case, it is likely that the RSF factors will be quite constant
for these impurities.
<BR>&nbsp;However, the RSFs are not constants for each atomic species.&nbsp;
They are functions of the host matrix atoms as well.&nbsp; In a dirty,
heavily contaminated sample with substantial lattice strain energy, the
RSFs will vary in an unpredictable way, and may in fact vary from isotope
to isotope.&nbsp; In other words,
<BR>&nbsp;
<BR>&nbsp;RSFI = f(CR,CI,U)&nbsp; ,
<BR>&nbsp;
<BR>where U refers to the local lattice strain energy.
<BR>&nbsp;In other words, what you are doing in SIMS is blasting the surface
with oxygen and tearing away atoms from the surface.&nbsp; But the energy
required to tear the atom from the surface depends on how big it is as
well as how it is bonded to its neighbor.&nbsp; If you have less than a
clean, pure surface, there are going to be substantial variations in the
SIMS signature for a given element.
<BR>&nbsp;Annealing the sample can reduce the error due to variation of
the RSF.
<BR>&nbsp;There is also a fallacy in trusting the literature values too
much.&nbsp; Not all material adheres to the literature value of abundance.&nbsp;
There can be some variations according to where it is originally mined.
<BR>&nbsp;In addition, some elements are routinely sold in isotope-enriched
form.&nbsp; For example, when you buy lithium, it is normally something
like 99% Li-7.&nbsp; This is because Li-6 is used for nuclear applications,
and the Li-7 is sold as the byproduct from the separation process.
<BR>&nbsp;Also, isotopic separation can occur due to the electrolysis process
itself, especially for light elements.&nbsp; In particular, studies at
NHE Lab have shown that some degree of separation occurs in the H-D-T system,
and some smaller effects may exist in other systems.
<BR>&nbsp;For these reasons, SIMS is proven to be unreliable for identifying
isotope shift.
<BR>&nbsp;SIMS apparent isotope shift has been observed with excess heat,
and without it, with deuterium and with hydrogen.&nbsp; Moreover, since
the Karabut group reports SIMS shifts due to Xenon bombardment (i.e., no
hydrogen, no deuterium, no palladium, no electrolysis), then the link between
isotope shift and electochemical cold fusion is much more ambiguous.
<BR>&nbsp;I am also not excited about arguments for a transmutation origin
of cathodic crud based on patterns in the distribution of elements.&nbsp;
Electrochemically transported crud should consist mainly of positive ions
and not negative ions, and thus will create patterns corresponding to the
periodic table (i.e., valence).&nbsp; The presence of mostly positive ions
on the cathode suggests chemical transport rather than a nuclear origin.
<BR>&nbsp;Dr. George Miley and Dr. T. Mizuno have been among the strongest
advocates for the existence of transmutation effects.&nbsp; I like Mizuno’s
arguments the best, because he has at least some data which shows a 100%
isotope shift in copper (all Cu-63, no Cu-65, according to SIMS), plus
he has detected Cu with several other techniques (but unfortunately not
yet with NAA as far as I know) .&nbsp; So this looks like a reasonable
argument.&nbsp; Even though SIMS is not very reliable, 100% vs. 0% is tough
to explain.&nbsp; Still, as argued above neutron activation, rather than
SIMS, is probably the preferred technique for observing isotope shift.&nbsp;
However, Cu is a bit of a problem since one of the lines needed to make
the identification is 511 keV, which unfortunately is used by several radionuclides.&nbsp;
The half life must be measured to distinguish between several radionuclides.
<BR>&nbsp;On the other hand, Miley’s approach is to use both neutron activation
analysis (NAA) and SIMS together.&nbsp; This is the correct approach, as
neutron activation can be compelling evidence for many (though not all)
radionuclides.&nbsp;&nbsp; The main problem with NAA is that it is possible
to make mistakes with individual elements because two or more radionuclides
often emit at the same gamma energy.&nbsp; In addition, as mentioned above,
some variation in isotopic abundance can occur naturally or in the refining
process or during electrolysis.
<BR>&nbsp;Miley’s isotope shift claims are not as spectacular as Mizuno’s,
though Miley’s methodology appears to be better.&nbsp; From my point of
view, Miley’s data looks like chemical transport.&nbsp; The biggest shifts
occur for those elements in the smallest abundance, which arouses doubt.
If you are willing to believe that the system is dirtier than Miley thinks,
then the data is not really very anomalous.&nbsp; I would like to see a
single element with a well-studied, verifiably anomalous isotope shift
as revealed by NAA for which all the error mechanisms have been considered
and ruled out.&nbsp; I have not yet seen this yet.
<BR>&nbsp;Mizuno’s data looks much more anomalous, though better measurements
are needed to be sure that he really has something.&nbsp; Maybe he is right
that the SIMS data is good enough to conclude that a Cu isotope shift has
occurred, but I’m very suspicious of SIMS and would like to see a very
good measurement with NAA to corroborate it.&nbsp; I hope this is possible.
<BR>&nbsp;I think Professor Richard Oriani fell into a trap in his paper,
in which he talked about superatoms with weight of over 300.&nbsp; Mass
spec is simply not reliable for this purpose.&nbsp; I felt badly for him,
because my impression has been that he is a very competent mechanical engineer.&nbsp;
But now I suspect someone has sucked him into very dubious spectroscopic
research, and he is no longer in his field of expertise.
<BR>&nbsp;I would tend not to accept neutron activation results as proof
of isotopic shift unless the shift is greater than about 10-15%&nbsp; and
several sigma for most heavy elements and I don’t accept uncorroborated
SIMS at all.&nbsp; It may be possible to accept lower shifts by NAA if
it can be shown that the element in question never deviates from the literature
value of isotope distribution no matter what its source; or if the NAA
gamma structure allows multiple confirmations of isotopic distribution
(i.e., multiple gamma lines) with high confidence.
<BR>&nbsp;There is some possibility that Mizuno or Miley may have something,
but I think I would like to see more before concurring with their contentions.&nbsp;&nbsp;
So there is some positive evidence, but it is still resting on some shaky
assumptions. In any case, non-transmutation mechanisms, such as unexpected
isotope separation should also be kept open, rather than limiting the options
to nuclear transmutations or nothing.

<P>&nbsp;Radiation Detection
<BR>&nbsp;
<BR>&nbsp;In this area, the best results are being obtained by accelerators.&nbsp;
I think Kasagi’s work from the last conference shows that there are some
anomalous reactions that happen at low energies (specifically simultaneous
three-body D-D-D reactions, resulting in high energy alpha and proton emission
which absolutely should not occur.&nbsp; This is the only part of the cold
fusion area which I feel confident in (but I’m not sure that it is at all
related to the Pons-Fleischmann effect).&nbsp; If a theoretical understanding
of the effect can be reached, then it may be possible to say whether other
claimed observables can actually occur.
<BR>&nbsp;This year’s paper from Kasagi claims an enhanced fusion rate
for Lipson’s PdO-Pd-PdO-Au heterostructure foils.&nbsp; I’m not sure about
that one, but I don’t see any glaring errors either.&nbsp; The only way
that I see how it could be wrong is if the control experiment (using pure
Pd) absorbed substantially less deuterium than expected, whereas the heterostructure
would have to have loaded better.
<BR>&nbsp;Takahashi has attempted to extend the 3-body experiments, although
most of the people I talked to felt that he needed to use a better detector
in order to be certain that he really has observed a three body reaction.
<BR>&nbsp;I was disappointed by a presentation by Ohmori, in which he claimed
that some anomalous effect occurred during high current electrolysis, at
which point the electrode becomes hot and generates a plasma.&nbsp; A fantastic
neutron flux (106 n/sec) was claimed, but then Ohmori admitted that this
might be due to electromagnetic noise from the plasma.&nbsp; Since he is
not dead from radiation poisoning, the latter explanation is likely.&nbsp;
It seems to me that this is probably nothing more than the burnout heat
flux (at a certain point, the heat transfer coefficient decreases, which
causes the surface to heat up, which causes the heat transfer coefficient
to further decrease, and so on.&nbsp; This causes flash boiling, similar
to what Ohmori observed).&nbsp; The low quality of this paper frankly shocked
me, and may cause me to re-evaluate the isotope shift papers by the Hokkaido
University group.&nbsp; My confidence in their research has been thoroughly
shaken.
<BR>&nbsp;Similarly, the work of the Iwamura group at Mitsubishi Heavy
Industries (MHI) was disappointing, as they reported non-reproducible results
which have the definite appearance of electronic noise.&nbsp; Several papers
from China also fit into this category.
<BR>&nbsp;There is a mysterious group referred to as the Cincinnati group,
which apparently is hoping for fame and fortune via a variant of cold fusion.&nbsp;
They supposedly reduce radioactivity in an electrochemical cell.&nbsp;
Most persons believe that the radioactivity is simply transported to other
places in the cell further away (or shielded) from the detector. Anyway,
these super-proprietary systems are impossible to evaluate since they are
kept so tightly under wraps.&nbsp; After they win the Nobel Prize and receive
a few multi-billion dollar utility contracts, perhaps they will be more
forthcoming.&nbsp; Or perhaps they will be too busy suing everybody who
wants to work on their stuff.&nbsp; However, in the meantime they will
be bogged down for years due to the difficulties they have created for
others to understand their work.&nbsp;&nbsp; For some reason, Celani got
involved in this research and submitted a “last minute” paper with “preliminary
results” on this phenomenon.&nbsp; If the cold fusion community wishes
to be taken seriously, we need to stop supporting these sensational claims
based upon sloppy, quasi-secret data.

<P>&nbsp;Helium

<P>&nbsp;At NHE lab, I observed helium on a quadrupole mass analyzer (QMA)
from a variety of different sources, including leaks, contamination, etc.&nbsp;
One particularly troubling finding was that, if the turbopump got too warm
(due, for example to pumping out deuterium from an outgasing sample), it
would lose efficiency at low mass numbers, and peaks at Mass 1, 2, 3 and
4 could be observed.&nbsp; At high resolution, the quadrupole mass analyzer
would show a distinct He-4 peak under these conditions.&nbsp; We checked
this out with the maker of the QMA and were told that it is normal.&nbsp;
In other words, simply putting a metal hydride sample in the chamber and
pumping down is enough to cause a helium peak to appear, but it is not
from the sample, but only residual helium which is not being removed by
the turbopump.&nbsp; I wonder if others have seen this same effect and
not realized what causes it.&nbsp; If so, some of the claims for He-4 may
be incorrect.
<BR>&nbsp;Some of the most credible researchers in this area are Mel Miles
and Ben Bush.&nbsp; I talked to Bush a little about his results.&nbsp;
I think he had eight positive results and 6 negative results on control
samples, if I’m not mistaken (i.e., 14 samples behaved as expected).&nbsp;
However, the positive results were all done one after the other.&nbsp;
I’d like to see future experiments done with an excess heat loaded cathode
first (loaded with D2), and control experiment (maybe some other metal
loaded with hydrogen, or something like that), so that the measurements
alternate:&nbsp; live, control, live, control, live, control, etc.&nbsp;
The significance of the result is not the observation of helium, since
that is observed often for a number of reasons, but rather the correlation
of the helium with what happened in the experiment.&nbsp; I am not convinced
that they eliminated all chances of systematic error.
<BR>&nbsp;Unfortunately, I did not get a chance to sit down with Mel Miles.&nbsp;
I think he is a very careful and competent scientist, so I regret not getting
a chance to review his helium data.&nbsp; We did chitchat some about our
experiences in Japan, but unfortunately we did not exchange much technical
details.
<BR>&nbsp;Yamaguchi of NTT retracted his helium results.&nbsp; At the end
of the conference, of the speakers (I think it was Bressani) tried to get
Yamaguchi to say that his results were really positive, but that perhaps
his equipment wasn’t sensitive enough to observe it.

<P>&nbsp;Tritium
<BR>&nbsp;
<BR>&nbsp;The work of Tom Claytor continues to produce positive results
in tritium generation.&nbsp; Claytor has a very good reputation, and is
known as a careful and meticulous scientist.&nbsp; Therefore, since his
data has not been adequately refuted in the past several years, it needs
to be taken seriously.
<BR>&nbsp;Romodanov of Luch also continues to report results, but is less
forthcoming about how his experiment works.
<BR>&nbsp;However, the QMA observations of mass 5 (presumed to be DT) as
suggested by the Mitsubishi Heavy Industries group has been adequately
shown to be due to DDH, at least as far as I am concerned, based on experiments
at NHE Laboratory.&nbsp; Opening the chamber to put in the sample allows
water vapor to enter, which enhances the DDH “background” temporarily.&nbsp;
The definitive test is a scintillation cocktail procedure, which showed
no tritium excess in our experiments.&nbsp; If there really were enough
tritium to be seen on QMA, then we again would need to explain why the
researchers are not dead.&nbsp; However, the MHI guys have not retracted
their data.

<P>&nbsp;Theoretical Work

<P>&nbsp;I’m not a competent cold fusion theorist, so I can’t really say
much in this area. However, Peter Hagelstein of MIT is still saying that
it is possible to couple lattice states and individual nuclear states,
so I have to believe that experiments such as Kasagi’s are possible. Hagelstein
is still interested in the possibility of dispersing nuclear transition
energy in the surrounding lattice, as a means of producing excess heat.
<BR>&nbsp;Kim of Purdue has attempted to describe ways by which three body
interactions might occur, as well as unexpected shielding effects which
might be present.&nbsp; I wonder if some of his arguments might be applied
to Claytor’s data.
<BR>&nbsp;Again, I’m not an expert, but both of these men seemed to have
good arguments of how anomalous nuclear reactions could be made to occur
(of course they might have slipped a subscript somewhere, but I would never
notice).&nbsp; For that reason, I think that cold fusion research is not
foolishness, but should be considered to be a hypothetical possibility
at least. However, the burden of proof is on the experimenters to produce
a bulletproof experiment that demonstrates an effect.
<BR>&nbsp;The conference organizers did a good job of screening the theory
papers, which in past years has been of very non-uniform quality.

<P>&nbsp;NHE Laboratory
<BR>&nbsp;
<BR>&nbsp;NHE Laboratory is now closing, and the equipment is being assigned
to different universities pursuing cold fusion and related studies.&nbsp;
Some expected that there would be a financial windfall for basic research
as a result of the lab closing, but as is usually the case, when a development
program shuts down, basic research funding also becomes tight.&nbsp; Similarly,
I am amused at some CF advocates in the US who are lobbying for a cutting
of hot fusion funds, assuming that that money would be reprogrammed for
cold fusion.&nbsp; Excess heat is not so unbelievable, but believing that
the government is going to reprogram money for cold fusion is really a
pathological belief!
<BR>&nbsp;The conclusions of NHE Laboratory are generally negative concerning
the reality of the cold fusion effect.&nbsp; In most cases, positive results
were achieved but subsequently proven to be due to artifacts or other non-nuclear
effects.&nbsp; I think the cold fusion community in general does not appreciate
just how difficult it is to tell the difference between an artifact and
a real result, and the conclusions from NHE Lab, though not necessarily
the last word, should not be simply swept aside and ignored.
<BR>&nbsp;I was kind of surprised to find myself listed as a coauthor on
Lipson’s paper.&nbsp; I’m not ready to buy into his conclusions because
I haven’t been given the data files on the experiment.&nbsp; I have a little
routine for converting Japanese MCA data files into Excel format, which
I think is necessary to evaluate the data.&nbsp; I don’t think Lipson’s
manual summaries of the data are adequate.&nbsp; Still it is encouraging
that his samples showed an apparently enhanced fusion cross section in
Kasagi’s accelerator experiments, so perhaps something indeed happens.

<P>&nbsp;Summary
<BR>&nbsp;
<BR>&nbsp;As far as I can see, it looks like there is a good chance that
Kasagi has observed some low energy accelerator effects (though they may
be entirely unrelated to the Pons-Fleischmann effect).&nbsp; These results
strongly suggest that the nuclear state is coupled to the lattice state
in some way which is not yet understood.&nbsp; Accordingly, it could be
a very important result, although perhaps not as wonderful as some would
like.
<BR>&nbsp;Similarly, Tom Claytor’s data at LANL continues to look good,
and an adequate refutation of his data does not currently exist.&nbsp;
So I think that there is some reason for believing that there is a mechanism
for enhancing nuclear transitions which are otherwise not anticipated,
and I support further experimentation and theoretical investigations in
this area.
<BR>&nbsp;In particular, I believe that a replication of the Kasagi D-D-D
experiment should be attempted.&nbsp; I think that it is likely that if
the anomaly is repeated, it will eventually be understood.
<BR>&nbsp;As far as excess heat and transmutation are concerned, I think
that the exotic effects are looking less and less likely as more time goes
on and more and more ways of making false positives are identified.&nbsp;
Moreover, there are so many separate claims in the field (probably 100
or so) that they cannot all be true.&nbsp; Thus, in reality most everyone
in the field is skeptical about most of the data.&nbsp; However, I think
it probably is worthwhile in continuing to investigate some of the better
experiments simply because the payoff is very high, even though the probability
of success seems very low to me.
<BR>&nbsp;Thus I think that accelerator experiments hold the key to cold
fusion in the near term.&nbsp; If these are understood, the physics may
help resolve some of the other debates in the cold fusion community about
what is and is not possible.&nbsp; Moreover, no less a critic than Douglas
Morrison has suggested at ICCF-6 that such research could be of interest,
perhaps, in explaining solar processes.
<BR>&nbsp;However, as I’ve become aware of more and more ways to generate
false positives, I’m increasingly skeptical of electrochemical cells, excess
heat, transmutation, etc.&nbsp; I do not believe that all researchers performing
such experiments are universally incompetent or guilty of pathological
science.&nbsp; On the contrary, I think there are some very good people
involved in cold fusion research.&nbsp; Still, these are very difficult
experiments, and there are very subtle artifacts which can be generated.&nbsp;
It takes a lot of time and many, many control experiments to properly identify
these artifacts.
<BR>&nbsp;At this point, I tend to accept the results of Kasagi, and am
optimistic about Claytor’s results.&nbsp; The work of Storms, Takahashi,
Miles, Bush, Mizuno, Miley, Case, Lipson, DeNinno and others looks interesting
enough that it ought to be continued, though I am skeptical about the conclusion
that a nuclear reaction is responsible for the unusual observations.
<BR>&nbsp;My general advice in this field is that it is better to measure
the same thing five ways, than to measure five different things one way.&nbsp;
Also, if a researcher can’t think of at least ten different control experiments,
he or she just isn’t trying.
<BR>&nbsp;

<P>Elliot B. Kennel
<BR>Director of Research and Development
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul  9 23:07:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA19198;
	Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:04:47 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:04:47 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A59FC8.277 earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 23:59:52 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Little: Simon: Kennel: CF replicability 7.9.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"1AoDX.0.uh4.zxQfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20447
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Subject: Re: Fleischmann's statement about replicabil
 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:00:38 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-From:  vortex-l eskimo.com
       Date:  Thu, 09 Jul 1998 09:54:13 -0500
       From:  Scott Little <little eden.com>
    Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
         To:  vortex-l eskimo.com

At 10:01 7/9/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Fleischmann meant there
>are no *easily* replicable experiments, which work much more often than
not,
>or experiments which a skilled person can master in a few weeks. He did
not
>mean that no experiment has been replicated.

What he actually said (I was there) was very close to, "There exists no
cold fusion demonstration apparatus today".  

I think this should be interpreted as follows:  

There is no protocol, however complex, that we can currently devise
which will ensure a positive result in a cold fusion experiment.

McKubre has further amplified this dismal position:

>We do not know how to reproduce our own experiments.  We have generated
>more null results and hours  of beautiful calorimetric balance (>100,000h)
>than anyone on the planet except Fleischmann and Pons.  Nevertheless, the
>existence of a thermal anomaly in the D/Pd system is clear to me, as it is to
>them, because we have seen the effect with our own eyes and modulated it with
>our own hands.  We cannot prove it to you because we are not in control of
>all critical parameters.  You should be skeptical, and remain so until we
>supply proof.

What amazes me is that, even in the face of statements like these from
the principle investigators of cold fusion, we still have some folks
adamantly insisting that the reality of cold fusion has been proven
beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

Subject:  Re: Fleischmann's statement about replicabil
 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:33:31 -0700
Resent-From:  vortex-l eskimo.com
       Date:  Thu, 09 Jul 1998 12:29:25 -0400
       From:  Bart Simon <simonb post.queensu.ca>
    Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
         To:  vortex-l eskimo.com
  References: 1

Greetings,

At 09:54 AM 7/9/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote:  

>McKubre has further amplified this dismal position:
>
>>We do not know how to reproduce our own experiments.  We have generated
>>more null results and hours  of beautiful calorimetric balance
(>100,000h)
>>than anyone on the planet except Fleischmann and Pons.  Nevertheless, the
>>existence of a thermal anomaly in the D/Pd system is clear to me, as it is to
>>them, because we have seen the effect with our own eyes and modulated it with
>>our own hands.  We cannot prove it to you because we are not in control of
>>all critical parameters.  You should be skeptical, and remain so until we
>>supply proof.
>
>What amazes me is that, even in the face of statements like these from the
>principle investigators of cold fusion, we still have some folks adamantly
>insisting that the reality of cold fusion has been proven beyond a shadow
>of a doubt.

I too remember McKubre saying something like this in Asti, and one can
not help being struck by his honesty and candor.  Yet it seems important
to add that McKubre can not be read as either becoming skeptical or
admitting to failure.  His perspective has always seemed to be that this
CF stuff is extremely hard and frustrating work.  When this gets cast in
the polarized, reified, and time-dilated atmosophere of Vortex the worry
is that saying this constitutes an admission of weakness which the
"skeptics" will capitalize on (I think the sense that there is a war
going on here is very real whether folks like it or not).  Consequently,
the rule of thumb for both the polarized sides here is express no
weakness.

But away from Vortex, things are a little more normal if you like --
what Mckubre and most others get upset about, from what I understand, is
just the general lack of respect for their work as scientists.  The
admission of so many null results is not to be taken as disproof, but
rather as a way of high-lighting the significance of the positive
results - they stand out clearly against the background of  "beautiful
calorimetric balance" even if it is not known why.   When skeptics so
quickly dismiss the positive results, what they are really doing is
questioning all those hours of generating the null results against 
which make a positive result "positive".

At this stage of the game scientific practice simply isn't as clean as
skeptics and critics assert.  I really can't agree with Dick Blue's
comments on this at all.  I don't get the sense that there is a crucial
experiment or demonstration that can disprove or prove cold fusion
unproblematically for everyone no matter how much either side says it is
so (and btw, as a sociologist, I reject both pathological science and
pathological skepticism as sound explanations for the continuing
conflict).

So I guess what is being asserted is not that the reality of cold fusion
has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, but that the reality of cold
fusion has been proven beyond the shadow of skepticism.  In my
experience talking to scientists of all stripes, doubt is everywhere and
always present one way or another.

Oh gads, I seem to have rambled on...  back to the trenches all.

cheers,
Bart
=====================================================
Bart Simon                      simonb post.queensu.ca
Dept. of Sociology              http://post.queensu.ca/~simonb/
Queen's University
Kingston, Ontario               phone: 613-545-6000 x7152
K7L-3N6                 fax: 613-545-2871
=====================================================

Comments by Rich Murray:  Little and Simon present much needed calm
voices in the terribly polarized debate.  Mallove yesterday refered to
Dick Blue as an "idiot", and Rothwell today posted, "...
scientific illiterates and world-class idiots -- especially Morrison."
They damage their own credibility.

As a contrast, Elliot Kennel in his devastating, comprehensive, very
informed critique, May 8, 1998,  of the field as presented at ICCF7,
described constructive suggestions there from Douglas Morrison:  

"Thus I think that accelerator experiments hold the key to cold fusion
in the near term.  If these are understood, the physics may help resolve
some of the other debates in the cold fusion community about what is and
is not possible.  Moreover, no less a critic than Douglas Morrison has
suggested at ICCF-6 that such research could be of interest, perhaps, in
explaining solar processes.

However, as I’ve become aware of more and more ways to generate false
positives, I’m increasingly skeptical of electrochemical cells, excess
heat, transmutation, etc.  I do not believe that all researchers
performing such experiments are universally incompetent or guilty of
pathological science.  On the contrary, I think there are some very good
people involved in cold fusion research. Still, these are very difficult
experiments, and there are very subtle artifacts which can be generated. 
It takes a lot of time and many, many control experiments to properly
identify these artifacts.  At this point, I tend to accept the results
of Kasagi, and am optimistic about Claytor’s results.  The work of
Storms, Takahashi, Miles, Bush, Mizuno, Miley, Case, Lipson, DeNinno and
others looks interesting enough that it ought to be continued, though I
am skeptical about the conclusion that a nuclear reaction is responsible
for the unusual observations.
 
My general advice in this field is that it is better to measure the same
thing five ways, than to measure five different things one way.  Also,
if a researcher can’t think of at least ten different control
experiments, he or she just isn’t trying. 

Elliot B. Kennel 
Director of Research and Development"  [end of Kennel quote]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 01:06:07 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19694;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:01:49 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:01:49 -0700
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:01:56 -0700
Message-Id: <199807100801.BAA32352 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Resent-Message-ID: <"LJpdC1.0.Wp4.ifSfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20448
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


>The longitudinal wave velocity can be experimentally measured. There is
>a substantial amount of equipment available (RF signal generators, power 
>amplifiers, dipole antennas, field measuring instruments, etc), which has 
>been developed for use by the cellular radio-telephone industry for
frequencies 
>in the area of 1.8 to 2 GHz. It seems a practical matter to measure the wave 
>speed (phase delay) of  the longitudinal H field in the spacial direction 
>orthogonal to the direction of conventional radiation. 

The longitudinal waves ought to be compression waves.  Thus, they should
interact, inertially.  To look for them you are going to need to monitor
neutral atom motions, not charged particles.  Try laser interferograms on
the end of a resonant rod of HTSC vibrating longitudinally down the length
of the rod, and monitor the vibrations with a secondary rod aligned to the
primary axis of first rod.  Then move the second rod further away and watch
the phase shift of sympathetic acoustic oscillations in second rod.  

Amplitudes will be tiny, so take care in not damping them out with your
mounting devices, and, keep both rods in vacuum chambers to eliminate
viscous damping of air.

Ross Tessien

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 01:38:47 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02859;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:36:24 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:36:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:28:56 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35b4d056.14931432 mail-hub>
References: <199807100801.BAA32352 Au.oro.net>
In-Reply-To: <199807100801.BAA32352 Au.oro.net>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"aZJG92.0.bi.6ATfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20449
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:01:56 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
[snip]

>The longitudinal waves ought to be compression waves.  Thus, they should
>interact, inertially.  To look for them you are going to need to monitor
>neutral atom motions, not charged particles.  Try laser interferograms on

Ross, surely charged particles have mass too (see your own theories on
solar ejecta). Perhaps a plasma could be used to convert the mass
movement into an electrical signal?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 03:27:01 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA10030;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 03:25:36 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 03:25:36 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 03:24:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Tides not due to moon's influence (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980710031905.6553B-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"LbBls2.0.eS2.TmUfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20450
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 19:30:22 -0400
From: allen c goodrich <110616.2412 CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.astro, sci.math, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity
Subject: GRAVITY-THE LAW OF MOTION

THE UNIVERSE- GRAVITY- 
A GRAND UNIFIED THEORY

WHY a grand unified theory of the universe?
Einstein's General Relativity equation does not
include relative mass-energy. Gravity,relative
volumetric acceleration, is a function of relative 
mass-energy density! THE LAW OF MOTION.
Current physics theories do not explain the ocean tides,
the  photon (particle or wave), gravity, time, mass, or
the electromagnetic field.
 
The low tide, not the high tide, is observed in the deep ocean
directly under the full moon.( U.S. Coast and Geodetic 
Survey Tables ). This observed fact, contradicts
physics texts, the dictionary and encyclopedia definition of
tide,  which shows a picture of the earth with a bulge of water
on the side facing the full moon, and states that the high tide
tends to occur directly under the full moon. This is an error.

It is not conceivable that the moon could pull several feet
of ocean water around the earth at better than 1000 mph.
This would wash away the continents and humanity in a day.
The copyrighted theory 1988 A.C.Goodrich; explains the 
tides as a decrease of kinetic energy and volume of the
ocean water with the increase of potential energy as the
moon direction changes and distance decreases relative
to a particular side of the earth's ocean, to maintain a
constant total energy of the universe.
THE FUNDAMENTAL EQUATION AND PRINCIPLE
of the universe is one of constant total energy expressed
by the (modified Galileo pendulum-Kepler-Newton-
equation by Goodrich) equation:
   2       3
T    = L    / K(M-m) where M is the total energy of the universe,
m is the mass-energy in question and T and L are time and
distance. This equation is derived from the FUNDAMENTAL
EQUATION AND PRINCIPLE of the universe (by Goodrich)
     2     2
mL  / T    + K(M-m)m/L = a constant M.
The total of kinetic and potential energy of the universe is a
constant M.
This grand unified theory defines time, mass, energy, gravity,
the photon, other forces, and the electromagnetic field as
geometric properties of the universe.

See Library of Congress Card Catalog No.94-90554
THE UNIVERSE- A UNIFIED THEORY-GOODRICH
and ISBN 0-9644267-1-4.
ALLEN C. GOODRICH
### 





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 03:50:40 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA12204;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 03:48:15 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 03:48:15 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199807101040.GAA22125 mail.enter.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <chronos mailman.enter.net>
From: "Robert G. Flower" <chronos mail.enter.net>
Organization: Applied Science Associates
To: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:12:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Reply-to: chronos enter.net
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <35A568AB.7C6D skylink.net>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52)
Resent-Message-ID: <"-MssE1.0.b-2.i5Vfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20451
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On  9 Jul 98 at 18:04, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: 

> From:          Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
> Subject:       Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna

> The far-fields of an AC current loop dipole are solved by Oleg 
> Jefimenko in his textbook "Electricity and Magnetism" [1].
> Jefimenko's solution contains a radiating longitudinal wave, 
> along with the conventional transverse EM dipole radiation field. 
> The near fields, which vary as 1/r^3, are dropped from the far-field 
> solution.
> 
> The far field solution consists of two parts. The conventional transverse 
> E and H radiation field, which drops off as 1/r, and propagates primarily in 
> the spacial direction orthogonal to the dipole vector. And a longitudinal 
> wave solution which consists solely of an H field, propagating in a 
> direction spacially orthogonal to the conventional radiation fields, 
> (i.e. along the direction of the dipole vector). The longitudinal wave 
> consists solely of an H field in the radial direction, which drops off 
> as 1/r^2.  


This is where the orthodox theory gets off the bus. The conventional
definition of "far field" or "radiation field" is that part of the
solution which falls off as 1/r.  

The conventional answer would be that Jefimenko's terms that
decrease as 1/r^2 are not part of the radiation field, but must be
ignored as "negligible" in comparison with the 1/r terms.

On this point, Stratton's Electromagnetic Theory text says:

"In the expansion of an electromagnetic field, only those terms that
vanish at infinity as 1/r give rise to radiation [meaning a net 
irreversible transport of energy away from the source]. The terms in
1/r^2 and 1/r^3 account for energy stored in the field, which
periodically flows out from the source and returns to it, without
ever being lost from the system."  (p. 437)

Jefimenko's equations confirm this.  Along the axis of the dipole
(which is the z-axis in Jefimenko's notation), E is constant (and
points in the z-direction), and H varies sinusoidally at the same
frequency as the AC current in the source loop.  So Poynting power 
flow ExH will be a constant zero, because E is parallel to H

At any point slightly off the z-azis, E is not parallel to H, and 
there will be a fluctuating Poynting power flow that averages to 
zero.

Stratton also says:

"In the vicinity of the source, there is a longitudinal component in
the direction of propagation" (p. 436), and gives an expression that
includes the 1/r^2 terms.

So I think the conventional answer would be that the 1/r^2 terms in
Jefomenko's solutions are not part of the radiation field, and hence
do not enter into Maxwell's Equations for free space.

Do I believe this? Yes but....

Here is an interesting question: All of the above (including
Jefimenko's analysis) applies only to the STEADY-PERIODIC conditions
that exist after the field pattern given by Jefimenko's solution
has been set up.

What is happening at the "leading edge" of the propagating wavefront
when the AC source is FIRST turned on?  Ie, at any distance r, when
r is of the order tc.  

This is a transient situation, and energy must be flowing out from
the source and "inflating" or exciting the EM field -- ie,
establishing the field patterns.  So we are interested in 
TRANSIENT power-flow, not the steady-state Poynting vector.

In the transient situation, the approximations used by Jefimenko
would not apply, and things get messy.  The methods used by Leon
Brillouin in "Relativity Revisited" and Henning Harmuth (in his
papers in Barrett/Grimes "Advanced EM" and Lakhtakia's books) must be
used.  It is HERE, I think, that the local monopoles of SU(2)
electrodynamics appear, and where the orthodox Maxwell equations
appear to break down.

This would be a good problem to work in detail, since it has terms in 
1/r, 1/r^2 and 1/r^3.  Also, it corresponds to the practical case of 
a current-driven loop antenna, which is well known.


Best regards,

Bob Flower

=============================================
Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates
> Scientific Software & Instrumentation <
> Quality Control Engineering <
=============================================

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 06:39:42 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA27678;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 06:36:57 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 06:36:57 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980710092808.007d7210 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:28:08 -0400
To: rmforall earthlink.net, Ekennel@Apsci.com, Ekennel@compuserve.com,
        vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Comment on Kennel ICCF-7 critique
In-Reply-To: <35A59DEA.2279 earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"bg_Ul.0.Km6.uZXfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20452
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 




At 11:51 PM 7/9/98 -0500, Elliot Kennel wrote: 


<excerpt>"Many researchers have observed the loss of excess heat 

upon switching from isoperibolic calorimetry to mass flow 

calorimetry (including NHE Lab and the IMRA Japan group). 

...  However, my view is that isoperibolic calorimeters have 

been shown to be unreliable for measuring excess heat in electrolytic 

cells in which the electrode surfaces are changing, and so I am skeptical 

of all excess heat data which depends on isoperibolic calorimetry, even 

</excerpt>for very good setups.  This disagreement has not been resolved
yet."



   The skeptics gloss over two problems with their reliance on

flow calorimeters to "prove" their point. 


  One is as follows:


  In the NHE data, presented at ICCF7, the NHE flow calorimeters could

not reconstruct a simple square-waveform while the isoperibolic

did.  Pointed this artifact of flow calorimetric systems 

out to Matsui when I saw his data, but like the skeptics in general, 

there is apparently neither a reponse, nor understanding.


  If the flow cal.system cannot

reconstruct a simple applied control thermal (joule) square wave, 

that particlular flow calorimetric system

(or other systems unable of resolving a control pulse) 

should not be trusted whatsoever until this artifact is explained

and corrected.


   Mitchell Swartz




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 06:51:04 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA29816;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 06:49:21 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 06:49:21 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:40:03 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: the Minato, John Berry's mesg.
In-Reply-To: <35A66468.8BCBFDED ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980710143654.29326A-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"fPOBF2.0.iH7.SlXfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20453
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dear John,

Could you tell me about those relativity exceptions - would they be in 
the book Newtonian Electrodynamics by The Graneaus?

EM ou devices, what is the guiding principle of their design: Bifilar 
coils, SMOT, Neuman et al.

2nd law devices, what is their guiding principle. I have more than a 
hunch it's to do with phase changes. Some use moving fluids, how does 
this work?
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 07:49:53 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA22466;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:44:51 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:44:51 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980710104924.02515e00 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:49:24 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Fleischmann's statement . . .
In-Reply-To: <35A53CA9.2597946D math.ucla.edu>
References: <199807091538_MC2-52A5-4F7 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"oCAbW1.0.tU5.YZYfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20454
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 02:56 PM 7/9/98 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote:
>                        The proper analogy is not between cold fusion and
>nuclear bombs/nuclear power plants, but instead you should be comparing to:
>
>atomic bomb -> fundamental effect at work is fission of nuclei, as
>demonstrated by  the collision experiments of Rutherford,
>or later scattering experiments if you want to focus on demonstrating the
>existence of a neutron.

   1) Chain reaction fission
   2) Prompt criticality
   3) U-235 separation or:
   4) Implosion technology and
   5) Pu-239 generation with minimal Pu-240 contamination

   The first is "relatively" easy to demonstrate in the lab.  In the US it
was done in Chicago, and by the end of the war, the Germans had ALMOST
duplicated that step.  (Using natural uranium oxide cubes suspended in
heavy water.)

   The second step is MUCH harder, you actually need to have completed step
3 or 5 to have a shot at duplicating it instead of proving it
mathematically.  Step four was a major hurdle during WWII, and without
supercomputers would still be hard today.

>tokamak fusion reactor -> fundamental effect is fusion of nuclei, the
reality >of which can be deduced from the Sun, or in the lab by the
scattering >experiments that Rutherform did circa 1910.

    It took what, forty years of study, to learn enough about plasma
instabilities and how to control them to bring tokamak technology to where
it is today.  In fact it took close to twenty years to discover the
instabilities that the tokamak was invented to suppress.  Fusion is easy
using gravity containment--it is the magnetic confinement that is hard. ;-)

>What is totally absent is a similar robust experiment that
>MERELY demonstrates that "cold fusion" exists, ignoring whether it can ever
>be converted to a useful technology.   Until such an experiment is found,
>"cold fusion" will remain a scientific outcast.

    There are twenty year old books on the Pd/D system which show that
there is something seriously weird there.  Measurements of the heat output
from the earth also show a major surplus which is otherwise unexplanable.
When you add this to the tritium measurements and the He3/He4 ratios in
helium from natural gas wells, and the serious lack of brown dwarfs in the
galaxy, Occam's Razor comes heavily down on the side of cold fusion.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 08:44:40 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16131;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:38:52 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:38:52 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:27:01 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Beyond the Y2K problem
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807101130_MC2-52B4-88CB compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"ODmYm.0.tx3.3MZfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20456
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

I rechecked Byte magazine. It lists the Mayan end of the world in 2023. This
is based on information from Dr. John R. Stockton, Surrey, U.K. It says MS-DOS
dies on January 1, 2044, 2^6 years from 1980, and COBOL-85 integer dates fail
on November 28, 4338. I love this one: "July 31, 31086: Internal Digital
Equipment VMS time fails at 02:48:05.47."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 08:42:19 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01945;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:33:04 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:33:04 -0700
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:27:50 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Merriman picks easy-to-prove cases
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807101132_MC2-52B7-C05D compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"SwORv3.0.BU.kGZfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20455
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; Barry Merriman >INTERNET:barry math.ucla.edu

Barry Merriman wrote about the "tokamak fusion reactor:  fundamental effect is
fusion of nuclei, the reality of which can be deduced from the Sun, or in the
lab by the scattering experiments that Rutherford did circa 1910," and other
well-know examples of important discoveries that were relatively easy to
replicate or verify astronomical."

He carefully selected these examples, and ignored the examples I listed.
Rutherford made a clear-cut, convincing observation of the sun in 1910, which
was relatively easy. I know the history of science. I realize that some
discoveries, like x-rays, were verified within weeks. But I pointed to other
well-known examples in which replication was much more difficult. As I said,
in 1919 Eddington et al. made a another solar observation, to test
relativistic effects of mass on light. This was extremely tricky (and it would
be even today), and it produced ambiguous results which scientists argued
about for years. I also listed quarks, and Brendan Hall agreed:

     . . . how many quarks are easily measured by today's off the shelf
     equipment?  Simplicity is not always the measure of scientific evidence.

And he said that experiments we think of as "simple" were difficult when first
performed:

     You also forget that many of the experiments done were, in their day,
     extremely sophisticated, such as using bubble chambers as the method of
     measuring decay products.  In our day there is an electronic device for
     nearly every measurement that we care to take, not so in their day -
     they had to invent the instrumentation.

I should have added the Michelson-Morley experiment, one of the most famous in
the history of physics. We discussed it here some months ago. It was extremely
difficult -- it took years. I think the consensus here was that it would still
be tough, even with modern instruments. It was NEVER replicated. The only
follow-up tests on record were performed 20 years later with better equipment.
They produced exactly the opposite result, and they were awarded by the AAAS
and praised by Einstein.

Merriman also ignored the famous sheep cloning experiment, which I listed. It
was replicated the first time the other day in Japan two years after the first
success. (The Japanese newspapers say it was the first replication. The mama
cow died, like Dolly's mother. Maybe cloning puts a curse on the parent?)
Experiments in biology and medicine never get easier. They never become cut
and dry, or systematic. People experimenting with animals and plants expect to
struggle and fail years or even decades after the first experiment. To clone a
sheep you must inject DNA into dozens or maybe hundreds of eggs. I do not know
the success rate, but I am sure many more eggs fail than succeed. Dick Blue
might say that since 99.99% of the eggs fail, statistically the experiment
never works and we can ignore the baby lamb. That is the logic he applies to
McKubre's experiments, with hundreds of thousands of hours of nothing and a
few hundred hours of robust, incontrovertible excess heat.

Fleischmann and other experts say that surface catalysis is part science and
part black magic, like biology and other wooly, terra-incognito fields. CF
springs from a field in which irreproducibility is the norm, and scientists
routinely work for years without success. Jim Patterson says that some surface
catalysis patents expired long ago, but the companies that developed the
techniques are *still* the only ones who know how to make them work.
Metallurgy is another area requiring a great deal of know-how and years of
practice. As I have often pointed out, gourmet French cooking is like this
too, although you wouldn't guess it from the results, which taste to me like
butter on butter smothered in cream and butter.

Merriman has once again evaded the issue and selected a set of examples
excluding the ones I listed. I do not deny that some experiments are easy. I
do not ignore his examples. He evades the issue, just as he refuses to
critique McKubre, Miles, Storms, etc. This is counterproductive and I find it
personally annoying and insulting. If Merriman challenged me with a carefully
written message citing well-known examples from the history of science, like
the 1919 experiment or Michelson-Morley, I would not ignore his point or pick
six other examples which are obviously irrelevant.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 08:47:32 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16164;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:39:01 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:39:01 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:27:13 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Fleischmann's statement . . .
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807101130_MC2-52B4-88CD compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"eUNsY2.0.Ry3.DMZfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20457
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; Mitchell Swartz >INTERNET:mica world.std.com

I wrote that electrochemical theorists have postulated that under the right
circumstances, pressure might reach 10^23 atm, greater than the core of a
neutron star. Mitch Swartz responds:

     No.  The theoretical predictions of the Nernst equation with fugacity
     considered do not hold to that pressure.

The papers I refer to are: T. Maoka and M. Enyo, Electrochmica  Acta, 26,
No.5, 615 (1981); M. Enyo and T. Maoka, J. Electroanal. Chem., 108, 277
(1980). This is from the Mizuno book I translated, which I hope we will
publish soon. I know nothing about these papers and I am sure they are over my
head, but I do understand the conclusions and I checked my translation with
Mizuno carefully.


     Issues of what "activity" really involves, equilibrium, and other
     physical matters dominate.

     You might read H. Uhlig, either his electrochemistry book, or Corrosion
     and Corrosion control.

YOU might talk to Maoka or Enyo, instead of contradicting me without even
knowing what I am talking about. I may be wrong but I never make extraordinary
claims without a basis. Did you think I made up 10^23 atm myself?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 08:51:30 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16657;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:42:07 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:42:07 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:29:55 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Fleischmann's statement . . .
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807101133_MC2-52BC-944E compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"P7ND2.0.344.8PZfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20458
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; Scott Little >INTERNET:little eden.com

I'd like make another point about Scott Little's statement:

     What amazes me is that, even in the face of statements like these from
     the principle investigators of cold fusion, we still have some folks
     adamantly insisting that the reality of cold fusion has been proven
     beyond a shadow of a doubt.

These "folks" he refers to are Mike McKubre, Martin Fleischmann, Fritz Will,
John Bockris, and so on. The principle investigators themselves say they are
100% convinced the reality of cold fusion has been proven, beyond a shadow of
doubt. McKubre says he understands why other people are not convinced, but he
himself has no doubts. They also say the experiment is much more difficult
than it looks.

Scott Little may have been referring to me in this statement. He should pick a
more capable opponent. He should fight someone his own size, as it were. (Not
literally, we hope. We would have to gang up three against one to achieve
equal mass.) Scott attended ICCF7 and he has a telephone. He should call
Martin Fleischmann or Mike McKubre on the telephone, or write to them, and
explain to why Difficult = Unproven. This, as I said, is an unprecedented new
standard developed for cold fusion. In 400 years of science and technology, it
has never been applied to any other discovery. People like Scott who propose
radical innovations to the scientific method should be willing to defend these
new ideas. Stick-in-the-mud conventionalists like Fleischmann and I will fight
for the status quo. I have tried to set Scott straight with examples like the
top quark, Michelson-Morley, sheep cloning and so on. He ignores my examples,
but perhaps if Bockris or Fleischmann give him a dozen examples from
electrochemistry and surface catalysis the message might sink in.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 08:55:22 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07268;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:49:01 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:49:01 -0700
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:49:09 -0700
Message-Id: <199807101549.IAA10066 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Resent-Message-ID: <"eE_6e1.0.Un1.iVZfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20459
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:01:56 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
>[snip]
>
>>The longitudinal waves ought to be compression waves.  Thus, they should
>>interact, inertially.  To look for them you are going to need to monitor
>>neutral atom motions, not charged particles.  Try laser interferograms on
>
>Ross, surely charged particles have mass too (see your own theories on
>solar ejecta). Perhaps a plasma could be used to convert the mass
>movement into an electrical signal?
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

Yes they ought to be able to be used.  But thinking in terms of mass, you
can get a larger KE effect by using heavier ions due to KE = mv^2, and you
cannot control v since that is the effect, but you can alter m.  

In the corona, aether emission waves heat O and H to the same velocity
dispersions.  That is what you have to work with when you use longitudinal
waves.  But if all of your ions rock back and forth, then it is like pieces
of kelp in the ocean, they rock back and forth in unison with the passing
waves, never gaining relative motions.

By using a rod like I mentioned, you are using a trick in engineering that
you well know, resonance.  An under damped resonator will gain in amplitude
until the input signal matches the emission due to all factors, such as
thermalization of the wave energy in the medium.  So like giving a kid on a
swing small taps, and then watching the amplitude grow, the same would be
true of the rod.

As for the plasma, it is so hot that everything mixes and washes out the
signal even if it is there.  And you only get the effect of a single
wavefront passage to detect, whereas a resonant system has many wave fronts
that contributed to the signal.

If you want evidence of longitudinal waves, read the recent Science News on
the article on Incessant Free Oscillations of the Earth.  I told you guys
about this months ago, but it is just now making it into the main stream
journals.  Note that the period of most of the Earth's oscillations matches
very well, the periods where the sun has most of it's output acoustic power.

Note also that you have many millions of miles between the earth and sun,
that is vacuum.  ergo, no "sound" transmission through particles.  That
leaves just a few possible causes.

1) Researchers favor wind gusts hitting the planet.  But that simply sweeps
the problem under a complicated fluid mechanical rug because then I could
ask, what causes the global wind patterns to be organized such that you wind
up with that period of wave oscillations.

2) Magic

3) Solar Acoustic oscillations.

The sun is the only nearby body with the energy to drive the earths
oscillations.  The problem is, magnetic fields cannot do it, and gravitation
in it's present form cannot do it.  But we do know now (from SN research)
that we must include a cosmological constant for the expansion of "space".
The question then arises:  "Does that term have *sources*, or is it really a
property of empty space?"

You know my answer.  Aether is flowing out of the sun and all stars, thus
driving the expansion of the universe and ergo, inflation never ended, it
just slowed into a new regime where we are now vaporizing the droplets of
aether condensate from a big bang BH core breach in a slower manner we call
fusion.

Ross Tessien



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 09:07:43 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA20969;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:03:48 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:03:48 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980710115459.007cf680 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:54:59 -0400
To: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Fleischmann's statement . . .
In-Reply-To: <199807101130_MC2-52B4-88CD compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"rgINt1.0.W75.XjZfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20460
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



At 11:27 AM 7/10/98 -0400, Jed wrote:
>YOU might talk to Maoka or Enyo, instead of contradicting me without even
>knowing what I am talking about. I may be wrong but I never make
extraordinary
>claims without a basis. Did you think I made up 10^23 atm myself?


   No.  

   It is an incorrect number.  It is obviously incorrect.

   The theoretical predictions of the Nernst equation
with fugacity considered do not hold to that pressure.
Issues of what "activity" really involves, equilibrium,
and other physical matters dominate.  
As suggested, those interested in learning
might read H. Uhlig, either his electrochemistry book, or
'Corrosion and Corrosion control'.

  Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 09:24:45 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18783;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:17:09 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:17:09 -0700
Message-ID: <35A63E98.D1279F10 GroupZ.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:17:29 -0400
From: sno <sno GroupZ.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
References: <199807101549.IAA10066 Au.oro.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"s5uYQ3.0.Mb4.3wZfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20461
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Ross - your answer brings up an interesting question,
it has been shown that a large pendalum, in a room with
many pedalums, causes the other ones, over a period of 
time, to go into sync...because of air currents ???

Anyway...if the earths oscillations are caused by the sun,
are the suns oscillations caused by the universe....and
is the a resonant frequency for the whole universe
in sync with the sun and earth....steve opelc

Ross Tessien wrote:
> 
> >On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:01:56 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
> >[snip]
> >
> >>The longitudinal waves ought to be compression waves.  Thus, they should
> >>interact, inertially.  To look for them you are going to need to monitor
> >>neutral atom motions, not charged particles.  Try laser interferograms on
> >
> >Ross, surely charged particles have mass too (see your own theories on
> >solar ejecta). Perhaps a plasma could be used to convert the mass
> >movement into an electrical signal?
> >Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
> 
> Yes they ought to be able to be used.  But thinking in terms of mass, you
> can get a larger KE effect by using heavier ions due to KE = mv^2, and you
> cannot control v since that is the effect, but you can alter m.
> 
> In the corona, aether emission waves heat O and H to the same velocity
> dispersions.  That is what you have to work with when you use longitudinal
> waves.  But if all of your ions rock back and forth, then it is like pieces
> of kelp in the ocean, they rock back and forth in unison with the passing
> waves, never gaining relative motions.
> 
> By using a rod like I mentioned, you are using a trick in engineering that
> you well know, resonance.  An under damped resonator will gain in amplitude
> until the input signal matches the emission due to all factors, such as
> thermalization of the wave energy in the medium.  So like giving a kid on a
> swing small taps, and then watching the amplitude grow, the same would be
> true of the rod.
> 
> As for the plasma, it is so hot that everything mixes and washes out the
> signal even if it is there.  And you only get the effect of a single
> wavefront passage to detect, whereas a resonant system has many wave fronts
> that contributed to the signal.
> 
> If you want evidence of longitudinal waves, read the recent Science News on
> the article on Incessant Free Oscillations of the Earth.  I told you guys
> about this months ago, but it is just now making it into the main stream
> journals.  Note that the period of most of the Earth's oscillations matches
> very well, the periods where the sun has most of it's output acoustic power.
> 
> Note also that you have many millions of miles between the earth and sun,
> that is vacuum.  ergo, no "sound" transmission through particles.  That
> leaves just a few possible causes.
> 
> 1) Researchers favor wind gusts hitting the planet.  But that simply sweeps
> the problem under a complicated fluid mechanical rug because then I could
> ask, what causes the global wind patterns to be organized such that you wind
> up with that period of wave oscillations.
> 
> 2) Magic
> 
> 3) Solar Acoustic oscillations.
> 
> The sun is the only nearby body with the energy to drive the earths
> oscillations.  The problem is, magnetic fields cannot do it, and gravitation
> in it's present form cannot do it.  But we do know now (from SN research)
> that we must include a cosmological constant for the expansion of "space".
> The question then arises:  "Does that term have *sources*, or is it really a
> property of empty space?"
> 
> You know my answer.  Aether is flowing out of the sun and all stars, thus
> driving the expansion of the universe and ergo, inflation never ended, it
> just slowed into a new regime where we are now vaporizing the droplets of
> aether condensate from a big bang BH core breach in a slower manner we call
> fusion.
> 
> Ross Tessien

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 09:37:47 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23508;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:31:27 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:31:27 -0700
Message-ID: <35A74CDB.AFEC139D ihug.co.nz>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:30:35 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: the Minato, John Berry's mesg.
References: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980710143654.29326A-100000 iesun9>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"1ZyfI.0.1l5.S7afr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20462
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

OK, this is long and there is a chance that I have made an error somewhere
so if you see one I will correct it. (or I may have put something that
leads to confusion)

The first is that relativistic electrodynamics has a FE loop hole, Because
the magnetic field around a particle is relative to the velocity of the
observer to the particle, the particle does not 'see' any magnetic field
from any charged particles in the same frame including it's own, So an
electron accelerating does not see or feel it's own magnetic field as it
does not have one in that frame, It only sees or feels fields from charges
that it has a relative motion to, Now I set that all out so you know but
that is in fact not a necessarily fact for this effect, Now if you have a
number of stationary charges (lets say negative) and an accelerating
charge of the same sign it will feel a field from the stationary electrons
and as the electron is accelerating the field will be seen to expand and
the induced electric field will further accelerate the electron, you see a
moving electric field creates a magnetic field and a moving magnetic field
creates a electric field, the electric field the charged particle will
feel will accelerate it, this is how self induction works in conventional
relativistic electrodynamics, the electrons in the wire do not feel their
own magnetic field because they feel the field of the protons in the wire
as there are more positive stationary charges than negative ones because a
number of the electrons are moving with the stream so the stream does not
feel it's own fields as there is no relative motion between them, now in
the first case the charges were accelerating relative to other charges of
the same sign, but this time the sign of the accelerating charge is
opposite to the (majority of the) stationary charges so the induced field
retards the acceleration but when the electrons decelerate the magnetic
field is collapsing not expanding so the induced electric field helps the
electrons keep moving, It is true in the first case though (with the same
sign) that the charges when decelerating will only be aided in that
deceleration so some wave shapes would have you lose as much (or more)
energy as you took out in the first case but others will be decidedly FE
because only the slightest energy is needed to accelerate the electrons
(and once stared it will continue with no more energy until the losses are
too high for the acceleration or current increase to continue) as the
induction is now positive which means you take before you gives, you
invested no energy in so what you pay back so to speak is totally your
choice.

Note: If you are not sure of any point above I know that it is all totally
conventional, anyone with good knowledge of electrodynamics should be able
to agree (except the FE part which I am sure they will deny as it is their
way ;)

I can't be bothered giving the others now, they are just simple logical
flaws in relativity (they really are simple but I guarantee they are
correct I am not ignorant of relativity).


John Berry

Remi Cornwall wrote:

> Dear John,
>
> Could you tell me about those relativity exceptions - would they be in
> the book Newtonian Electrodynamics by The Graneaus?
>
> EM ou devices, what is the guiding principle of their design: Bifilar
> coils, SMOT, Neuman et al.
>
> 2nd law devices, what is their guiding principle. I have more than a
> hunch it's to do with phase changes. Some use moving fluids, how does
> this work?
> Remi.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 09:49:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26463;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:43:35 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:43:35 -0700
Message-ID: <003501bdac21$640fd7a0$968f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>, <dougc.elliott@pnl.gov>
Subject: Alkali Carbonate-Bicarbonate Hydrogen Storage?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:39:26 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"_Xrrk2.0.NT6.rIafr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20463
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

A possible way to store Hydrogen obtained
from Solar or Wind electrolysis of water is
to react it with CO2. Possibly the CO2 can
be absorbed "milked" from the atmosphere.

Aqueous K2CO3 or KHCO3 should react with H2:

1, KHCO3 + 3 H2 <---> KOH + CH3OH + H2O

2, K2CO3 + 4 H2 <---> 2 KOH + CH3OH + H2O

The Cannizzaro Reaction: 

2 CH2O + KOH ---> CH3OH + H-COOK indicates
that the methanol can exist in the solution.

The easy distillation of methanol from the
solution would make it available for a motor
fuel, or reactions 1 or 2 could be reversed
at a higher temperature to provide Hydrogen
on demand for an I.C. engine or a Fuel Cell.

About 50 pounds for storing a pound of Hydrogen
or about 150 watt-hours/pound as opposed to
15 watt-hours/pound for Lead-Acid batteries
doesn't seem too bad.

Regards,    Frederick 




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 10:00:07 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28945;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:52:42 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:52:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <c8d41867.35a644a0 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:43:11 EDT
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Fwd: The vortex has lost quality
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part0_900088991_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38
Resent-Message-ID: <"C7WTw2.0.B47.ORafr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20464
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--part0_900088991_boundary
Content-ID: <0_900088991 inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

.

--part0_900088991_boundary
Content-ID: <0_900088991 inet_out.mail.aol.com.2>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Return-path: <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
To: vortex-l exkimo.com, barry@math.ucla.edu
Subject: The vortex has lost quality
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:42:20 EDT
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Barry Merryman may soon be leaving the list.  Russ George is gone.  I only
read three messages a day..the rest I delete.
...........................................................
We need more experimental data.  We need less babel.
..............................................................................
.....
Merryman is correct most of science is correct and based on hundereds of years
of experimentation.  If you haven't spent the time and went to school and
studied the history, something you dreamed up last night in bed is probably
wrong.
..............................................................................
.............
Talk about streaming aether vortexes and hidded aether power grids and I will
ask you "How many angels can you fit on the head of a pin?"
..............................................................................
........................
It's not that all of physics is correct.  I believe and have believed for a
number you years that there are three major flaws in current physical
thinking.  That's all the more I am willing to go against the grain. 

1.  The infinite permeabiality of condensed systems effects the gravitational
and nuclear fields as well as the electric field.

<A HREF="http://www.padrak.com/ine/JNEV1N2.html">Journal of New Energy, Volume
1, Number 2</A> 


2.  That gravity contains negative energy.  If a new gravitational field is
generated postive energy will result.  This positive energy is attached to the
new gravitaitonal potential.

"The Genesis of the Universe and Zero Point Energy."
Frank Znidarsic, Infinite Energy Vol 1, No. 5 & 6, 1996
Concord NH

3.  That a symmetrical relationship exist between force and gravity.  Forces
within matter induce the gravitational field of matter.

 <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/physrev.txt">The Source of
Inertial and Grav. Mass</A> 

....................................................

That's all I've done it took years to do it and it's not that far out of the
main stream.
Never the less I'm to far out for conventional science and the aether is to
far out for me.
..............................................................................
............


Frank Znidarsic

--part0_900088991_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 10:12:54 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01335;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:05:17 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:05:17 -0700
Message-ID: <35A648A1.3D767F48 ariel.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:00:17 -0400
From: Terren Suydam <terren ariel.com>
Organization: Netmonkey Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fleischmann's statement . . .
References: <199807101133_MC2-52BC-944E compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"NhMWm3.0.mK.Cdafr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20465
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> To: Vortex; Scott Little >INTERNET:little eden.com
> 
> I'd like make another point about Scott Little's statement:

C'mon, man, even an outsider like me knows what Scott means here. 
You're dancing around the large gray elephant sitting in the middle of
the room, pretending it's not there.  The large gray elephant's name is
Repeatability.  Scattering experiments are repeatable.  CF isn't.

Until it is...

Terren

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 10:24:28 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04108;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:20:27 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:20:27 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A64B6C.A63B63D6 ariel.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:12:12 -0400
From: Terren Suydam <terren ariel.com>
Organization: Netmonkey Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Tides not due to moon's influence (fwd)
References: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980710031905.6553B-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ZzvYq2.0.501.Prafr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20466
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jim Ostrowski wrote:
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 19:30:22 -0400
> From: allen c goodrich <110616.2412 CompuServe.COM>
> Newsgroups: sci.astro, sci.math, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity
> Subject: GRAVITY-THE LAW OF MOTION

<snip>
 
> It is not conceivable that the moon could pull several feet
> of ocean water around the earth at better than 1000 mph.

Sure it's conceivable if the tides are a resonant oscillation, which
would explain why you get two high tides per day.  The reason the low
point might be under the moon is phase difference.

Terren

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 10:31:29 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06734;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:27:32 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:27:32 -0700
Message-ID: <005d01bdac27$888a29e0$968f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: The vortex has lost quality
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:23:57 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"1dhk02.0.1f1.1yafr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20467
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com <FZNIDARSIC@aol.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Friday, July 10, 1998 10:54 AM
Subject: Fwd: The vortex has lost quality

How can you lose something you never had, Frank?    :-)

Regards,    Frederick


>.
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 12:42:37 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25324;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:30:37 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:30:37 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:16:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: gravity.org (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980710151606.12348G college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"8nWA33.0.VB6.Olcfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20468
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:14:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: gravity.org (fwd)


please find the pages of the gravity society at the temporary adress
http://web.ag/gravity.org .


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 13:17:47 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16696;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:10:08 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:10:08 -0700
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:07:32 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Fleischmann's statement . . .
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807101609_MC2-52BC-A2DC compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"WLyfQ.0.o44.WKdfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20470
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; Terren Suydam >INTERNET:terren ariel.com

Terren Suydam accuses me of evading the issue:

     C'mon, man, even an outsider like me knows what Scott means here. You're
     dancing around the large gray elephant sitting in the middle of the
     room, pretending it's not there.  The large gray elephant's name is
     Repeatability.  Scattering experiments are repeatable.  CF isn't.

I plead not guilty! I have NOT ignored the elephant, and neither has McKubre
or Fleischmann. We say yes, the experiments are not easily repeatable. But we
give examples of other experiments in other areas of science which were
difficult to repeat for many years (sometimes decades), but which were
accepted anyway, when they were still difficult. I listed incandescent lights,
transistors, quarks, the M&M speed of light experiments, cloning, catalysis
and others. Robert Eachus wrote a nice short summary of fission and fusion
experiments that defied replication at first. I am not evading the issue. I
have listed examples. If you want to disagree and make a positive contribution
to the discussion, you should discuss some of my examples and show where I am
wrong. Don't change the subject! Stick with Eddington in 1919, do talk about
Rutherford in 1910. We know that many good experiments *are* repeatable. We
agree that some degree of repeatability is essential: McKubre would hardly
believe his own results if others had not seen the same thing. We acknowledge
that repeatability is a Good Thing, much to be desired. We hope that CF
becomes repeatable, just as difficult experiments have in the past. But these
are not the issues. The question is: Is easy repeatability a legitimate
criterion for the proof of existence of a phenomenon? Does the phenomenon have
to be easily, frequently repeated (what Scott Little claims), or is it enough
for the phenomenon to appear many times at a high signal to noise ratio in
different labs, even though it fails to appear more often than not, and it
demands a huge effort each time (the McKubre and Fleischmann position)?

I presume you believe in the sheep cloning after one experiment and no
replications. Why? Because one sheep is a high sigma event. You cannot mistake
a sheep for a bulldog or a mop, and it is easy to compare the sheep to its
twin-and-mother. The cloning experiment is difficult to perform but easy to
verify once it is done. The same can be said for cold fusion. McKubre has no
doubt that his cells are hot when they finally heat up. He says, "the effect
is thus neither small nor fleeting."

I said that the rejection of CF on the Little standard is unprecedented. I
should modify that. Actually, many phenomena were rejected for this reason in
the past, but people did not came out and boldly declare this was their
reason. They understood this is a violation of the scientific method and
common sense, so they made up other reasons. People have a natural tendency to
reject novel phenomena and to be suspicious of claims that cannot be easily
demonstrated. In 1912 barnstorming pilots in the U.S. were sometimes attacked
or run out of small towns on a rail because they claimed that man can fly. The
people in these small towns saw the news of the famous flights and air meets
in Paris and New York. This was front page news worldwide during 1908 and
1909. But the small town people did not *believe* because they had not seen an
airplane with their own eyes. It is a scientist's job -- and ethic -- to
suppress that kind of primitive suspicion, to rise above it, and to depend
upon more objective means of judging the truth. Actually, many scientists go
too far in the opposite direction, interestingly enough. Scientists often take
difficult experiments more seriously than easy ones. I suppose they realize
that most phenomena are difficult to replicate, but mistakes are easy to make.
As I wrote in my Britz review:

     Cold fusion results are sporadic because they are difficult to
     reproduce. This has never been held as a reason to disbelieve results in
     other fields of science. Indeed, scientists often brag they can perform
     difficult experiments that other people cannot. They boast about the
     arcane complexity of their research. They do not add, "this means my
     results are probably wrong." Only one group of scientists at Fermilab
     managed to do the top quark experiment. Only one group has explored
     Mars. People do not doubt these results despite the fact that the
     experiments are difficult, expensive, and take decades to complete.

You, Merriman, Scott Little or SOMEONE who thinks Fleischmann is wrong should
stand up, make a coherent case for it, and show that my examples (some
suggested by Fleischmann) do not prove what we say they do. I am tired of
repeating arguments in detail, listing examples, and citing precedents in
response to skeptics, and then seeing them do a disappearing act. Scott Little
will not respond. Merriman never will! Yet they will back in three months
saying the same thing, and the debate will never get past square one.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 13:21:54 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16658;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:10:01 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:10:01 -0700
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:07:10 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Maoka and Enyo paper
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807101609_MC2-52BC-A2DB compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"jG6KQ.0.B44.PKdfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20469
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Regarding the 10^23 atm pressure hypothesized by Maoka and Enyo, Mitchell
Swartz writes:

     No.

     It is an incorrect number.  It is obviously incorrect.

It isn't obviously incorrect to me because I know nothing about the subject.
It isn't obviously incorrect to Maoka and Enye because they wrote a series of
papers about it. They must have reasons for thinking this. They know about
the Nerst equation and conventional electrochemistry. I think that you,
Mitch, should read their papers and think about their arguments before
critiquing them.


     The theoretical predictions of the Nernst equation with fugacity
     considered do not hold to that pressure.

Yes, I think they say that. Their observations and the hairy electrochemical
equations in other papers indicate, "The equivalent hydrogen pressure anodic
polarization was less diminished as compared with the value calculated by the
Nernst equation from the total overpotential." In this paper they also discuss
tetrabutylammonium hydroxide (TBA), "which is expected to increase deviation
of the experimental data from the Nernst equation by suppressing the rate of
the Volmer process" -- whatever that means. A person who assisted me with the
translation recommended some others: M. Enyo, "Change of Mechanism of the
Hydrogen-Electrode Reaction with Overpotential - I. Distribution of the
Reaction Affinity Among Constituent Steps," Electrochemica Acta, 1973, Vol.
18, pp 155 - 162, and "Part II. Son of Overpotential Meets
Frankenstein" . . . no, make that "Part II. Overpotential and Its Relevance
to the Hydrogen Embrittlement of Metals," ibid., pp. 163 - 168, and
"Part III. Overpotential Beach Party Bingo Girls Meet The Thing," starring
Annette Funicello and Franky "The Nernst" Avallon, Cannatta Acta,
1956.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 13:45:53 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA27819;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:38:35 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:38:35 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980710163502.007d3640 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:35:02 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Maoka and Enyo paper
Cc: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
In-Reply-To: <199807101609_MC2-52BC-A2DB compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"HbdVQ.0.Xo6.9ldfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20471
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


At 04:07 PM 7/10/98 -0400, Jed wrote:
>To: Vortex
>
>Regarding the 10^23 atm pressure hypothesized by Maoka and Enyo, Mitchell
>Swartz writes:
>
>     No.
>
>     It is an incorrect number.  It is obviously incorrect.
>
>It isn't obviously incorrect to me because I know nothing about the subject.


  Then get a book, study and learn a lot.
Or as a minimum, take a course in electrochemistry.

Perhaps you, Jed, should stop preaching about things which you 
know so little. It diffuses from that about which you know so much
more.

 ==============================================================


>     The theoretical predictions of the Nernst equation with fugacity
>     considered do not hold to that pressure.
>
>Yes, I think they say that. Their observations and the hairy electrochemical
>equations in other papers indicate, "The equivalent hydrogen pressure anodic
>polarization was less diminished as compared with the value calculated by the
>Nernst equation from the total overpotential." In this paper they also
discuss
>tetrabutylammonium hydroxide (TBA), "which is expected to increase deviation
>of the experimental data from the Nernst equation by suppressing the rate of
>the Volmer process" -- whatever that means. A person who assisted me with the
>translation recommended some others: M. Enyo, "Change of Mechanism of the
>Hydrogen-Electrode Reaction with Overpotential - I. Distribution of the
>Reaction Affinity Among Constituent Steps," Electrochemica Acta, 1973, Vol.
>18, pp 155 - 162, and "Part II. Son of Overpotential Meets
>Frankenstein" . . . no, make that "Part II. Overpotential and Its Relevance
>to the Hydrogen Embrittlement of Metals," ibid., pp. 163 - 168, and
>"Part III. Overpotential Beach Party Bingo Girls Meet The Thing," starring
>Annette Funicello and Franky "The Nernst" Avallon, Cannatta Acta,
>1956.

  Thanks for the refs.  Nonetheless, the number you purported
is much too large, Jed.  

Dont take it personally.  But do get the suggested text.
Electrochemistry, corrosion control, advanced inorganic chem.
texts should help you as well, Jed.

  Best wishes.

  Dr. Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 14:10:26 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02704;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:05:11 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:05:11 -0700
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980710210625.0068f274 freeway.net>
X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:06:25 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Edwin Strojny <estrojny freeway.net>
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Beyond the Y2K problem
Resent-Message-ID: <"9bgKB1.0.tf.58efr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20472
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:27 AM 7/10/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>To: Vortex
>
>I rechecked Byte magazine. It lists the Mayan end of the world in 2023. 
>
>- Jed
>
Isn't that the year that the first estimate of the asteroid coming our way
was supposed to hit?

Ed Strojny

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 15:17:54 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18897;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:14:52 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:14:52 -0700
Message-Id: <35A69266.522DB82 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 01:15:02 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [Fwd: Tesla's legacy continues to electrify engineers]
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D3D4B00F80FB39BAF6101F3F"
Resent-Message-ID: <"kRL532.0.4d4.R9ffr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20473
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------D3D4B00F80FB39BAF6101F3F
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

(3'rd trial of posting)
--------------D3D4B00F80FB39BAF6101F3F
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Message-ID: <35A615F1.F1E9B126 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:24:01 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Tesla's legacy continues to electrify engineers
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>From today EE Times:

http://www.eet.com/news/98/1016news/tesla.html

Please somebody forward it to Freeeng and other lists if it absent there.

(the web page is quite long and contains links,  not wish to copy here to save the bandwidth and disk space).

Regards,

hamdi ucar

--------------D3D4B00F80FB39BAF6101F3F--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 15:25:59 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22692;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:21:33 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:21:33 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980710172245.00ca4a1c mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:22:45 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Fleischmann's statement . . .
In-Reply-To: <199807101133_MC2-52BC-944E compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"KNLsk.0.8Y5.gFffr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20474
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 11:29 7/10/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>I'd like make another point about Scott Little's statement:
>
>     What amazes me is that, even in the face of statements like these from
>     the principle investigators of cold fusion, we still have some folks
>     adamantly insisting that the reality of cold fusion has been proven
>     beyond a shadow of a doubt.
>
>These "folks" he refers to are Mike McKubre, Martin Fleischmann....

Nope.  There is a large and important difference between the position
McKubre expresses with, "You should be skeptical, and remain so until we
supply proof." and the position you typically advocate, "cold fusion has
been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt".

McKubre may be personally convinced that cold fusion is genuine but he
correctly realizes that other scientists should not be expected to accept
it until he can supply proof. 

Another error in your post:  You imply that I believe that Difficult =
Unproven.  Actually, for me it's Unreplicable = UnProven.

Jed, our differences are actually very small and our argument is largely
semantic.  All I want you to do is to stop making obviously false
statements like, "cold fusion has been proven beyond a doubt".  Such
statements damage your credibility, which in turn damages all of us
involved in CF research.

You can be equally assertive, perfectly correct, and far more effective
with statements like, "the evidence for cold fusion definitely warrants
further investigation".

The benefits of taking the more conservative position are largely political
and   that's the arena in which you can truly contribute to this field.  I
would like to see you give up being a hot-headed radical and become a
respectful, accurate promoter.  Your net contribution to the development of
cold fusion would surely increase.

Sincerely,


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 15:38:46 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29057;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:33:06 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:33:06 -0700
X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226
Message-Id: <v03020901b1cc08fd9193 [128.183.200.195]>
In-Reply-To: <199807080942_MC2-5272-C980 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:32:58 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Rothwell on heat after death
Resent-Message-ID: <"_Sxtt3.0.r57.WQffr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20475
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

 Jed Rothwell has brought up the old argument that the total energy
released in heat after death events greatly exceeds the possible chemical
energy and therefore this heat release must be of nuclear origin.  Jed
complains that the skeptics ignore this alleged fact.  I think the skeptics
are assuming that the believers are incompetent in doing the simple energy
calculation and that the energy released is about the order of the chemical
energy.  Now that Jed has quoted some actual numbers I thought that it
would be a good idea to do the energy estimate.
  I will do the estimate by taking the pressure in the palladium rod in
atmospheres.  The pressure of one atmosphere is 1.0133 * 10^5  Pascals.
Since the energy density is equal to the pressure,  the energy density of
one atmosphere, E, is

  E = .10133 Joules/cc

where I have converted from cubic meters to cubic centimeters.  Now Jed has
quoted the preposterously high value of 10^23 atmospheres in a fully
charged Palladium lattice.  This would give an energy density of about
10^23 joules/cc.  From the quote of Fleischmann's response:

>     In the first place we note that the explanation of Kreysa et al [8]
>     could not possibly have applied to the experiment in question:  the
>     vapourisation of the D2O alone would have required ~1.1MJ of energy
>     whereas the combustion of all the D in the palladium would at most have
>     produced ~ 650J (assuming that the D/Pd ratio had reached ~1 in the
>     cathode), a discrepancy of a factor of ~ 1700.  In the second place, the
>     timescale of the explanation is impossible: the diffusional relaxation
>     time is ~ 29 days whereas the phenomenon took at most ~ 6 hours (we have
>     based this diffusional relaxation time on the value of the diffusion
>     coefficient in the alpha-phase;

We have an estimate of 1.1 MJ released and only 650J of available chemical
energy.  Estimating the volume of the palladium rod at 5 cc we have about 5
* 10^23 J of energy available which is more than adequate to give the
required 1.1 MJ (note that 10^23 is much larger than 10^6).  Of course this
number is pure nonsense, quoted by the believers to explain the existence
of CF but not used to calculate the available energy for heat after death.
  Taking some more reasonable numbers I would estimate the hydrogen density
in a fully loaded palladium lattice at about 15000 atmospheric density and
I would take a potential of about 4 volts.  Then the energy density is

  E = 15000 * (11605/300) * 4 * .10133 J/cc = 235 KJ/cc

for 5 cc this gives about 1.2 MJ or about the energy required.  So
Fleischmann's available energy estimate of 650J is total nonsense on the
low side.  Jed likes to make simple comparison estimates so lets do that.
650 joules is the energy a 65 watt light bulb puts out in 10 seconds.  Now
a fully loaded palladium lattice should have an energy density exceeding
that of high explosives by about a factor of 10.  Is there anyone here who
believes that 5 cc's of fully loaded palladium has the energy a 65 watt
light bulb puts out in 10 seconds.  You have to be a real true believer to
believe that.
  It appears that Fleischmann believes his nonsense number.  It is not a
typo I think, or otherwise he would not have given the large ratio of 1700
.  If he meant to give a more reasonable ratio of say 1.700 he would not
have even given the numbers as they would not have supported his case.  My
conclusion is that the claimed excess of heat after death energy over the
available energy in the palladium lattice is simply an artifact of gross
error of calculation on the part of the cf believers.  There appears to be
no excess energy.

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 15:46:54 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26830;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:44:45 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:44:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: mindtech nor.com.au
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980711085434.006994b8 pophost.nor.com.au>
X-Sender: mindtech pophost.nor.com.au
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:54:34 +1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
In-Reply-To: <35A568AB.7C6D skylink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"O86q73.0.6Z6.Qbffr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20476
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Three possible resolutions are suggested:
>
> 1. The longitudinal wave is not retarded. It does not propagate, but has a 
>    time a varying phase which is identical at all points in the r
direction, 
>    with a resulting magnitude which depends only on time and 1/r^2. In
other 
>    words, instantaneous action at a distance. 
>

This corresponds to a purists scalar field with its inherent non-locality.
However, secondary effects may be achieved by engineering frequency and
phase relationships between same.

> 2. Or, there are spacially induced magnetic charges in the vacuum, which
>    move with the wave.
>

Using complex coils, it is possible to impress recoverable EM vectors as
substructure upon scalars, and vice versa. It might be assumed this also
applies to longitudinal waves, thereby performing a type of directionality.
I would guess that what is classically termed a longitudinal "wave" may in
fact be a scalar conditioned in such a way by its structural mode of
generation. The propagation, however, may still be non-local, appearing
only as an interferrence pattern with respect to the receiver.

>It might be that the longitudinal 
>wave travels at a velocity which is different than a transverse EM wave.  
>

This has been claimed by Tesla enthusiasts, Minto, and a host of others.
Presumeably the evidence already exists. But what intermediary process
causes the difference? Then we know where to look.

>It seems a practical matter to measure the wave 
>speed (phase delay) of  the longitudinal H field in the spacial direction 
>orthogonal to the direction of conventional radiation. 
>

What are you suggesting be used as a detector?

Peter Nielsen

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 15:50:07 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27536;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:48:09 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:48:09 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:36:47 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Maoka and Enyo paper
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807101840_MC2-52C9-183F compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"V8lUD.0.Ak6.deffr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20479
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Mitchell Swartz writes:

     Thanks for the refs.  Nonetheless, the number you purported is much too
     large, Jed.

No, it isn't to large. I got it exactly right. I am the translator. You are
saying that Mizuno, Maoka, Enyo et al. got it wrong. They are not me. I have
no idea whether their theories are right, wrong or in between.


     Perhaps you, Jed, should stop preaching about things which you know so
     little.  It diffuses from that about which you know so much more.

This is not preaching. I CLEARLY and REPEATELY stated that I know little about
this, with caveat after caveat. Obviously I am directing readers to the source
of the information, and standing aside. No reader would take this as an
endorsement. Only you, in all the world, would argue with me instead of the
authors.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 15:49:18 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01958;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:45:08 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:45:08 -0700
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:44:57 -0700
Message-Id: <199807102244.PAA14911 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Resent-Message-ID: <"aDwhr2.0.LU.pbffr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20478
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Ross - your answer brings up an interesting question,
>it has been shown that a large pendalum, in a room with
>many pedalums, causes the other ones, over a period of 
>time, to go into sync...because of air currents ???

Any coupling of energy between the pendulums will do it.  It can be
mechanical motions coupled through the support walls / ceiling too.  For coo
coo clocks on a wall, all side by side, you can get an entire line of clocks
to lock up into phase and frequency lock.

Analogously, you can use a series of superconductive precision frequency
standards, ie Josephsons Junctions.  The interesting thing is that to treat
the way they lock up, mathematically, you have to treat the communicated
energy as though all of the individual oscillators are EQUALLY coupled to
each of the other oscillators, despite the distance in between.  In other
words, oscillator number 1 must be given a coupling coefficient to 10 that
is equal to the coupling coefficient to 2.

The locking proceedure looks chaotic for a long time, and then the entire
system sort of drops into a lower energy state and all of the oscillators
lock up.  Groups may lock up and break apart again before this occurs as the
entire system seeks a lower group potential energy set of motions.

Now, think in terms of "particles" being coupled oscillators, and of
"spacetime" as being the wave energy between them that is coupling them
together.  Then, "phase interference patterns" lead to accelerations of
individual oscillators in the overall system, and ergo the notion "force" is
born if you don't understand what is really going on at below the sub atomic
scale.

>
>Anyway...if the earths oscillations are caused by the sun,
>are the suns oscillations caused by the universe....

;-)    Yes.  More accurately, but the wave emissions of other stars nearby
in the MW.  Those interact, and you can think of the oscillations of the sun
as being coupled to the oscillations of the other stars around it.  But be
careful here because the oscillatory wave energy is small by comparison to
the wave energy emitted by the sun and stars.

You see, fusion, ie emission of aether, leads to the creation of new
spacetime nodes in the vicinity of the reaction.  So not only is aether
flowing out of the sun, but the spacetime nodes are actually precessing
outward along with that flow.  We can think of that as a spacetime curvature
because these are indeed acoustic nodes, and there is indeed a distortion to
the geometry of the nodal structure.

and
>is the a resonant frequency for the whole universe
>in sync with the sun and earth....steve opelc


At a most fundamental scale, the Planck scale, Yes.  The fundamental
frequency to which all matter in the universe is coupled, (as underdamped
oscillators), is the Planck scale wave structure.  This is because that is
the wave frequency and spacetime that IS, spacetime.  E45 Hz and E-35 meters
from node to node.

Spacetime must at a minimum be a quadrature structure, so I have been
reading about recent work to describe nature as quaternions.  By allowing a
fundamental organization to spacetime, we allow matter to be resonances and
force fields to be wave interference patterns.  This allows us to now study
the geometries of individual particle resonances such as electron, proton,
neutron, pion, neutrino, etc etc.  

It is like learning that instead of having to work with retrograde motions
via Ptolemaic celestial spheres, we can now study the actual geometries of
individual particles and their field structures.  The only confusing thing
you have to get used to is that you are working with waves, and not
particles and fields.  To work with waves, you have to look outward to
understand their behavior, whereas to work with particles you study a miopic
inward sort of thinking and consider only the two paticles involved at any time.

ie, a tornado is a wave structure in our atmosphere.  But if you were out on
Mars using a telescope, you could at best discover that some "particle"
moved across the surface of the earth and wreaked some sort of damage to the
surface via a change in color.  We know that the change in color was a bunch
of houses being ripped up and tossed upside down, because we are close
enough in scale to the phenomena.  But our view to "particles" is sort of
like the Martian observer.

Now, if the tornado is a particle, then that particle interacts with other
particles, via forces, and it is all plain and simple.  We include
"Uncertainty" principles etc. because we find we cannot accurately know the
position and momentum of the tornado.

>From earth, however, we realize that what we really are not able to know are
all of the air currents that are forcing the tornado this way and that.  So
the tornado moves in unpredictable directions with a general trend along
some general line.

Now here is the real kicker between the two ideas.  If the tornado is a
particle, then we can place it on the earth, out in space, on the moon,
anywhere and it will behave the same.  But if we place a tornado with all of
it's momentum intact, on the face of the moon, and then let it go, it will
simply fly apart and immediately disperse.  

The lesson is, without the fluidic motions, the tornado doesn't exist.
There is no magical attractive force to hold it together.  Rather, air
molecule momentum is converging into the vortex in order to drive the
rotation.  And so the tornado really exists for hundreds of miles around the
funnel vortex we identify as "The Tornado".  Without the atmosphere around
it, a tornado is nothing.  Likewise, without the ocean of aether around a
soliton such as an electron, it would not exist.

And also, without a spacetime structure of wave energy, the electron could
not exist either because it would be just a vortex moving through the ocean
out of lock step with other solitons.  Well, I guess it could exist, but it
would not interact via the electric force because there would be no
spacetime wave energy to force both solitons into specific phase relations
to one another.  

Ross Tessien 




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 15:50:03 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01600;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:44:50 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:44:50 -0700
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:44:59 -0700
Message-Id: <199807102244.PAA14918 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Tides not due to moon's influence (fwd)
Resent-Message-ID: <"YSYnN2.0.wO.Xbffr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20477
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Acceleration, velocity, and displacement are always out of phase with one
another.  Check out spring mass damper systems.  And yes, the tides do race
around the surface of the earth.  

Ross Tessien


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 15:50:27 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02435;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:45:48 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:45:48 -0700
Date: 10 Jul 1998 22:45:55 -0000
Message-ID: <19980710224555.22737.qmail wings.buffalo.edu>
MBOX-Line: From nobody Fri Jul 10 18:45 EDT 1998
From: jim soltis <soltis server.uwindsor.ca>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Article from a friend
Content-Type: text
Resent-Message-ID: <"GJcGH2.0.kb.Rcffr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20480
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: A


Dear Bill Beatty /vortex-l eskimo.com,
This article was sent by jim soltis from the State University of New York at Buffalo's News Services Web site. If you would like to see more articles of this nature please visit our site at (http://www.buffalo.edu/news)

jim soltis's message to you:
This is truly far out . Dr Chung has a PhD
from MIT so it bears notice.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you would like to see more articles of this nature please visit our site at (http://www.buffalo.edu/news)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 17:28:10 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11152;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:13:09 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:13:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Puthoff aol.com
Message-ID: <696814b6.35a6ac2b aol.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:04:49 EDT
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re:  Re: Fleischmann's statement . . .
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78
Resent-Message-ID: <"zZG4l1.0.Ak2.Jugfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20481
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

nicely stated!

Hal

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 20:24:39 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27355;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:18:29 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:18:29 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980710221942.00883c60 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:19:42 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re:  Re: Fleischmann's statement . . .
In-Reply-To: <696814b6.35a6ac2b aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"9ulBW1.0.Eh6.4cjfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20482
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 08:04 PM 7/10/98 EDT, you wrote:
>nicely stated!

Thanks.  I rather expect Frothwell to disagree but I felt compelled to try.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 20:36:55 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25172;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:35:28 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:35:28 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A6DB18.395F keelynet.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:25:12 -0500
From: "Jerry W. Decker" <jdecker keelynet.com>
Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: KeelyNet-L lists.kz
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Negative Resistance discovered??
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"KyuMB3.0.E96.-rjfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20483
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi and Gnorts!

Received this most interesting email and I thought 
we should all get busy and try to track this down, 
for reasons I shouldn't have to elucidate;
==============
Obviously you don't know me and I'm very new to free 
energy physics. But!   This morning I came across a 
web site that had announced that Deborah Chung, Phd. 
and professor at University of Buffalo in New York
had discovered a carbon composite material that had 
room temperature superconducting attributes as well 
as a -8 Ohm reading (that's negative resistance!).  

Since that time the page has been removed!; however, 
I can vouche that it was in that directory and that 
there are other press releases about Deborah Chung 
and superconductivity and carbon materials science.

The web page was;

 http://www.buffalo.edu/news/Latest/ChungResistance.html

You will see several files with Chung at the beginning 
of the name if you simply go up one level.  That is, 
go to;

    http://www.buffalo.edu/news/Latest/

Why do I bring this up to you?  Glad you asked.  
Is it possible that what they are actually seeing 
is zero point energy?  They just don't know it since 
they aren't looking for it.  What else could explain
negative resistance?  

Also, I wanted to email T. Bearden, but could not
find his address.  I assume you would know how to 
contact him and that someone in his position and 
knowledge would be able to pursue this if it makes 
sense.

Thanks.

P.S.
You might want to venture over to;

    http://slashdot.org/articles/9807100151223.shtml

which has some discussion by many people that read 
the article.

Here is a quote from someone else referencing 
another page which, interestingly, has been 
removed, too:

  by Steve Parkinson () on Friday July 10,  03:59

  http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=00013617012944
 
Here's the original article I read, from the Daily 
Telegraph on-line

SCIENTISTS claim that they can now make materials 
that lose resistance to electricity at room temperature.

According to the researchers at the University of 
Buffalo, New York, the discovery has the potential 
to lead to faster, more efficient electronic devices. 

Without resistance, there is no energy loss, so the 
amount of energy that is put into a system is 
exactly the amount that it produces.

This was previously thought to be possible only with
the development of so-called superconductors that 
work at room temperature.

Prof Deborah Chung, speaking at the fifth International
Conference on Composites Engineering in Las Vegas 
yesterday, said: 

 "This is not a superconductor but a strange 
  conduction phenomenon we call negative resistance."

She observed "negative" resistance in carbon-composite
materials, used in aircraft and tennis rackets, and 
zero resistance when these materials were combined 
with others that are conventional, positive resistors.

This finding of negative resistance flies in the 
face of a fundamental law of physics - opposites 
attract. Prof Chung said the application of voltage 
usually caused electrons - which carried a negative 
charge - to move toward the high, or positive end, 
of the voltage gradient. 

But in this case, the electrons moved the other 
way, from the plus end of the voltage gradient to 
the minus end. Prof Chung said: 

   "In this case, opposites appear not to attract."

=====================
This is of course a very exciting discovery as Tom
Bearden has often discussed how a negative resistance
component or circuit would be one answer to the free
energy many of us continue to seek.

I thought with the discussions a couple of months 
ago about 'negative viscosity' in the presence of 
vortexial or tornadic patterns, this discovery is the
electronic analogue to the mechanical/thermal.  It is 
strangely reminiscent of British inventor Spence with 
his vortex electron chamber which he claims produces
abundant overunity energy.  The problem with the unit
was corruption/pitting of the anodes as the electrons
were drawn to the central cathode.  I haven't heard 
if he ever resolved it.

So if you find out anything more, please post either
to me or to the list (where I would transfer it 
anyway...<G>...) thanks!!!

-- 
            Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
          http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
             ICQ # - 13175100   /   AOL - Keelyman
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 10 21:23:03 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29826;
	Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:21:19 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:21:19 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980711001230.007d2880 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 00:12:30 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Fleischmann's statement . . .
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980710172245.00ca4a1c mail.eden.com>
References: <199807101133_MC2-52BC-944E compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"lVZOJ3.0.uH7.yWkfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20484
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


At 05:22 PM 7/10/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>At 11:29 7/10/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>>I'd like make another point about Scott Little's statement:
>>
>>     What amazes me is that, even in the face of statements like these from
>>     the principle investigators of cold fusion, we still have some folks
>>     adamantly insisting that the reality of cold fusion has been proven
>>     beyond a shadow of a doubt.
>>
>>These "folks" he refers to are Mike McKubre, Martin Fleischmann....
>
>Nope.  There is a large and important difference between the position
>McKubre expresses with, "You should be skeptical, and remain so until we
>supply proof." and the position you typically advocate, "cold fusion has
>been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt".


   Jed is correct on this one.
Many types of cold fusion have been proven.
Both nickel, palladium and other systems.
   confer, for example, http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html

 ========================================================

>McKubre may be personally convinced that cold fusion is genuine but he
>correctly realizes that other scientists should not be expected to accept
>it until he can supply proof. 
>
>Another error in your post:  You imply that I believe that Difficult =
>Unproven.  Actually, for me it's Unreplicable = UnProven.
>

   Not accurate. 

   Many things are proven and not always replicable.
Postsurgical radiation therapy as an adjuvant for colorectal carcinoma
with positive nodes is one example.  It is BOTH clinically and
statistically significant, and can reduce recurrence from about
60% to 5%.

   Mitchell Swartz



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 04:25:01 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA05435;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:21:35 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 04:21:35 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <002201bdacbc$8500e760$90b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: O-U, LENR Effects & WIMPS
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 05:10:26 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"H5D8L3.0.rK1.zgqfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20485
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Since the Weakly Interacting Massive Particles,
WIMPs (0nX)that make up 99% of the mass of the Universe are everywhere, they
Might participate
in reactions such as the Water Carbon Arc O-U
effect and explain the production of Iron in
the arc if there is Potassium (or such)in the water:

19K39 + 0n18 ---> 26Fe57 + 7 Beta (minus')

In the 0nX group, X may be anywhere from 3 to
over 50 neutrons in a cluster. I think X is
24 Spalled off of the Tungsten in the Ohmori
experiments, thus:


74W184 + 0n24 ---> 82Pb208 + 8 Beta (minus')

In this case the 0nX may be from fission of the
Tungsten:

Quasi-Neutron (0qn1) + 74W184 ---> 2 Cr51 + Fe56 + 0n24 + 200 Mev.

The Quasi-Neutron is a "resonance state" of an electron
neutrino-antineutrino and a proton that can cause fissioning of the
Tungsten.

Or perhaps the 0n24 WIMPs are just present in the water also, and they have
an affinity for
Potassium or Sodium?

Regards,   Frederick







From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 06:58:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA18992;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 06:54:03 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 06:54:03 -0700
Message-ID: <19980711135315.17072.rocketmail send1e.yahoomail.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 06:53:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Additonal Articles/Info on Neg Resistance
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"paLb31.0.ee4.wvsfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20486
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Yahoo still has an article online - see:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/upi/story.html?s=n/upi/98/07/10/general_news/ussuperco_1.html

I have appended the article to the end of this message in case it also
disappears from Yahoo.


Info on Deborah Chung

http://www.eng.buffalo.edu/Departments/mae/FACULTY/FACULTY/CHUNG/text.html

Found a Usenet thread from a few days ago talking about the
buffalo.edu article. [sci.physics.electromag]  
see:
http://x9.dejanews.com/=infoseek/dnquery.xp?search=thread&filter=%7bdb98p3x%20%7b%7b%7ec%20%7b%23*%23%20%26!%20(sex%20%7c%20jobs%20%7c%20fs)%7d%7d%7d%7d&svcclass=dncurrent&threaded=1&ST=PS&CONTEXT=900162510.1341849786&HIT_CONTEXT=900162510.1341849786&HIT_

NUM=1&recnum=%3cEvupyE.AK world.std.com%3e%231/1



------------------------------------------------------
Friday July 10 12:19 PM EDT 

Holy Grail of electricity claimed

LAS VEGAS, Nev., July 10 (UPI) - Scientists say they have found a way
to produce a major facet of superconductivity at room temperature, one
that in the past could only exist at temperatures hundreds of degrees
below zero. 

The feature is called zero resistance, and it allows electricity to
flow freely for long distances without losing its power along the way,
say investigators from the State University of New York at Buffalo. 

Research leader Deborah D. L. Chung says she has created zero
resistance ``without cooling and without a superconducting material.'' 

She used common carbon fiber composites _ lightweight, strong
materials found in everything from airplane wings and helicopter
blades to tennis rackets. 

If the preliminary findings pan out, this could lead to faster, better
electrical devices and computers, says the scientist. 

With her new technique, Chung says, ``We have already seen exact zero
electrical resistance at room temperature.'' 

But, experts in the field are extremely skeptical, saying that even
the basic premise is physically impossible. 

Chung says the heart of her discovery is a peculiar phenomenon called
negative resistance, which occurs when electrons appear to travel in
the wrong direction, something experts say is as unnatural as water
spontaneously reversing course and
flowing upstream. 

In Chung's laboratory, it occurred when two layers of carbon materials
were fused at high pressures, causing electrons to appear to go the
wrong way at the junction point, she explains. She does not know why
it happened. 

When combined with other materials with positive resistance, the
scientists came up with zero resistance, she says. 

In a presentation Thursday at a scientific meeting in Las Vegas, she
said, ``Zero resistance means superconduction at room
temperature.'' 

The scientists have filed a patent on the invention. 

She points out that her research has not yielded a new superconductor,
because superconductors have other properties, like magnetic fields,
that are lacking in her discovery. 

But, she adds, ``in terms of zero resistance it is like
superconduction, in spite of the fact that this is not technically a
superconductor.'' Chung says she stumbled upon negative resistance
about a year ago. 

At first she did not believe it, ignoring it as a mistake in her
measurements. But when the same readings continued to come up month
after month, she decided that she had to look into it. 

Superconductivity specialists are extremely skeptical about the
finding. 

Oak Ridge National Laboratory scientist Richard Kerchner says,
``Negative resistance is not possible. It makes no sense.'' 

He says that the scientists were probably observing a mechanical-
electrical effect, that gave the illusion of negative resistance. 

Since 1986, scientists have yelled ``Eureka'' over superconduction at
room temperature a few times, only to be disappointed. 

David K. Christen, another superconductivity specialist at Oak Ridge,
says that ``every one of them flopped.'' 

Based on the history, he says, ``I'm extremely skeptical.'' 

Superconductivity now has limited applications _ such as medical
imaging machines and experimental high-speed trains
designed to speed along on magnetic field cushions. 

The stumbling block has been the need to use super-cool materials. So
getting superconductors to work at higher and higher temperatures has
been an intense research area, with a room temperature superconductor
as the Holy Grail. 

Researchers at the meeting say the discovery is so new and surprising,
that they have not had time to muse upon potential applications. 

Jason Lo of the Canada Center for Minerals and Energy Technology in
Ottawa, says, ``We are still in the shock phase.'' 

He says what the scientists have observed is like ``instead of seeing
water flowing downhill, they are seeing water flowing uphill.'' 

Lo says that the finding is preliminary, but if it can be confirmed
and successfully applied, ``I can assure you this is going to be very
significant.'' 

He says, ``Here we are talking about a new phenomenon.'' 

(Written by Mara Bovsun in New York City)
-------------------------------------------------------
==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 07:07:50 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA20528;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 07:03:36 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 07:03:36 -0700
Message-ID: <35A76A05.6203 skylink.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 06:35:01 -0700
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
References: <199807101040.GAA22125 mail.enter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"AiS1E3.0.f05.t2tfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20487
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Robert G. Flower wrote:
> This is where the orthodox theory gets off the bus. The conventional
> definition of "far field" or "radiation field" is that part of the
> solution which falls off as 1/r.

Hi Robert. Thanks for the response. You already know the problem very 
well. I don't have the Stratton text, and don't know what he has to say 
about the 1/r^2 component of the dipole field, but other than Jefimenko, 
most other texts only discuss the 1/r radiation field. 

> The conventional answer would be that Jefimenko's terms that
> decrease as 1/r^2 are not part of the radiation field, but must be
> ignored as "negligible" in comparison with the 1/r terms.

The 1/r^2 component of Jefimenko's solution is clearly a travelling 
wave, and hence by definition a radiation field rather than a near 
field. Further it is related to the source current by a factor of 
1/c, while the 1/r field is related to the source current by 1/c^2. 
It is maybe not so neglible as conventionally suggested. If the wave 
is instaneous action at a distance -- it might be best veiwed
as a near field. But then there would be other serious problems with
conventional thinking.  

> On this point, Stratton's Electromagnetic Theory text says:
> "In the expansion of an electromagnetic field, only those terms that
> vanish at infinity as 1/r give rise to radiation [meaning a net
> irreversible transport of energy away from the source]. The terms in
> 1/r^2 and 1/r^3 account for energy stored in the field, which
> periodically flows out from the source and returns to it, without
> ever being lost from the system."  (p. 437)

I haven't seen the form of Stratton's solution for the 1/r^2 component, 
but if it represents a travelling wave, as does Jefimenko's, then the
above paragraph is not correct. In Jefimenko's solution, magnetic
energy is propagating away from the source -- radiation which has 
become unattached to the source.  
 
> Jefimenko's equations confirm this.  Along the axis of the dipole
> (which is the z-axis in Jefimenko's notation), E is constant (and
> points in the z-direction), and H varies sinusoidally at the same
> frequency as the AC current in the source loop.  So Poynting power
> flow ExH will be a constant zero, because E is parallel to H.

In order to try to avoid additional confusion, I did not mention the 
electrostatic part of Jefimenko's example problem. Perhaps I made a 
mistake in doing this. But it seems to me that it does not enter into 
the source equations for the longitudinal H wave, which only depends 
on the AC current in the loop. The same longitudinal H wave solution 
should result from a conventional current loop dipole antenna, rather 
than Jefimenko's oscillating charged ring. Do you agree? If so, than 
I think the static radial E field of Jefimenko's example is irrelevant 
to the longitudinal H field propagation problem.

> At any point slightly off the z-azis, E is not parallel to H, and
> there will be a fluctuating Poynting power flow that averages to
> zero.

Assuming the static E field is irrelevant to the problem, the only
E field off the axis comes from the 1/r field -- all of the energy 
flow of this E field is accounted for in the 1/r radiation. This E 
field can not further contribute to a Poynting vector for the 
longitudinal H field. 
 
> Here is an interesting question: All of the above (including
> Jefimenko's analysis) applies only to the STEADY-PERIODIC conditions
> that exist after the field pattern given by Jefimenko's solution
> has been set up.

Yes there is a transient problem. But in my opinion it exists primarily
in the 1/r^3 field. The radiation fields, travelling waves, are by
nature transient in time and space, which is the reason they are able 
to cut lose from the source. Still begging the question of whether the 
longitudinal 1/r^2 field is actually cut lose. 
 
> What is happening at the "leading edge" of the propagating wavefront
> when the AC source is FIRST turned on?  Ie, at any distance r, when
> r is of the order tc.

I see this problem in the 1/r^3 field, but not in the travelling fields.
What difference if the AC source is FIRST turned on, or if the source 
current passes through zero twice each cycle? 
 
> This is a transient situation, and energy must be flowing out from
> the source and "inflating" or exciting the EM field -- ie,
> establishing the field patterns.  So we are interested in
> TRANSIENT power-flow, not the steady-state Poynting vector.

Since there is no longitudinal Poynting vector, for sure something
esle must be happening with the 1/r^2 field. Maybe transient power
flow to set up the field. If it is a near-field -- i.e. not a 
propagating travelling wave, transient power flow may be the way 
to look at it. Not only how does it get set up, also what happens
if you interrupt the the source current. How does the energy get 
back into the source. Instantaneously? The same problem exists
in the 1/r^3 near field. 
 
> In the transient situation, the approximations used by Jefimenko
> would not apply, and things get messy.  The methods used by Leon
> Brillouin in "Relativity Revisited" and Henning Harmuth (in his
> papers in Barrett/Grimes "Advanced EM" and Lakhtakia's books) must be
> used.  It is HERE, I think, that the local monopoles of SU(2)
> electrodynamics appear, and where the orthodox Maxwell equations
> appear to break down.

> This would be a good problem to work in detail, since it has terms in
> 1/r, 1/r^2 and 1/r^3.  Also, it corresponds to the practical case of
> a current-driven loop antenna, which is well known.

Also a practical experiment. 

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 07:37:50 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA21319;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 07:32:11 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 07:32:11 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A76837.5D3E earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:27:20 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Blue: need to test hypotheses in CF research 7.10.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"XFXtB1.0.xC5.fTtfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20488
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Subject: Re: Little: Simon: Kennel: CF replicability 7.9.98
  Date:  Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:12:04 -0400 (EDT)
  From:  "Richard A Blue" <blue pilot.msu.edu>
    To:  rmforall earthlink.net
>
> At this stage of the game scientific practice simply isn't as clean as
> skeptics and critics assert.  I really can't agree with Dick Blue's
> comments on this at all.  I don't get the sense that there is a crucial
> experiment or demonstration that can disprove or prove cold fusion
> unproblematically for everyone no matter how much either side says it is
> so (and BTW, as a sociologist, I reject both pathological science and
> pathological skepticism as sound explanations for the continuing
> conflict).
>
> So I guess what is being asserted is not that the reality of cold fusion
> has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, but that the reality of cold
> fusion has been proven beyond the shadow of skepticism.  In my
> experience talking to scientists of all stripes, doubt is everywhere and
> always present one way or another.
>
> Oh gads, I seem to have rambled on...  back to the trenches all.
>
> cheers,
> Bart
> =====================================================
> Bart Simon                      simonb post.queensu.ca
> Dept. of Sociology              http://post.queensu.ca/~simonb/
> Queen's University
> Kingston, Ontario               phone: 613-545-6000 x7152

In response to what Bart has said, I would not argue that there has
to be a definitive experiment that will clearly resolve the question
of the reality of cold fusion. What I do assert, however, is that there
should be progress toward a resolution of that question, and that such
progress cannot be made by endlessly repeating the same sorts of
measurements that Pons and Fleischman and McKubre made, as it is rather
conclusively demonstrated that their methods do not, in general, lead to
conclusive results.  Isn't it obvious that something different is
needed?

Now I will continue by suggesting that among the things lacking in the
P&F protocol, if there is such a thing, is any guiding understanding
concerning the nature of the process being investigated.  That leaves
the investigators fumbling in the dark without knowing which way to
turn to move their investigations forward.  However, as soon as we
make such a suggestion, we are attacked for suggesting that theory
take precedence over experimental results.  Let me suggest that is
just the advocates way of covering up some rather silly assumptions that
are implicit to their methods.  If they actually stated a testable
hypothesis concerning the claimed cold fusion process, and then designed
their experiments to test a definite hypotheses, we likely would see
some real progress.

Also, I have pointed out that there is something rather strange about
attempting to investigate a supposed nuclear reaction process without
making any use of features that are unique to such processes. 
Calorimetry is, in a sense, a last resort.  It responds to the energy
release after it has been fully degraded to the thermal equilibrium of
the surroundings. At that point heat is heat, and has lost entirely any
characteristics that might identify its source or help to define its
properties.  I think the list of what has NOT been learned about cold
fusion via these experiments is a rather serious condemnation of the
approach that has been taken.

Clearly one thing that characterizes any nuclear reaction process that
is likely to be involved, is that the energy release per reaction event
is much larger than for any chemical reaction.  Clearly, those using the
calorimetric approach must agree with me on that point, because they
have no possible evidence to support a cold fusion hypothesis other
than the condition that the energy release is too great to be chemical.

I therefore suggest that it makes good sense to design CF experiments
around the detection of energetic events before that energy is
all degraded into the surrounding thermal bath.  This is nothing new.
It lies at the very heart and soul of experimental nuclear physics.
We nuclear types have been perfecting the techniques for at least 60
years, and it is simply folly not to employ those techniques in CF
investigations.

That I am right on this point has been demonstrated by Pons and
Fleischman, for example, in that they actually attempted to detect
neutron emission from their CF cell, knowing that successful detection
of a significant neutron flux would truly clinch their case.  Although
the screwed up rather badly in that attempt, they did actually
accumulate the data which proves, with remarkable sensitivity, that
neutron emission is It is precisely at this point, I believe, that the
history of cold fusion took a wrong turn and headed down a path to utter
and complete nonsense and rather shameful intellectual dishonesty. 
While CF advocates openly admit the lack of detectable, comensurate
radiation in virtually every form of CF experiment, they seem incapable
of facing the implications of such observations honestly.

Mallove and Rothwell may call me  an "idiot", but you will all note that
they actually have nothing to say with respect to the arguements I
present.  Indeed, no one has risen to my challange to offer any
plausable reaction hypothesis to account for the claimed "massive
nuclear transmutations."  Surely, the babbling of an idiot can be put
down by these intellectual giants.

Fact is I've got the CF crowd by the tail, and they all know it!

Dick Blue

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 07:49:43 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24424;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 07:47:04 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 07:47:04 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980711104925.007ee750 cnct.com>
X-Sender: knagel cnct.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:49:29 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel cnct.com>
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"eMY5s3.0.Xz5.chtfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20489
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hello.

There's a good reason textbooks shy away from the near field.
It gets ugly. But really, intuition should be sufficient to
visualize whats happening. In the far field, the dipole looks
so small that signal coming from each end might as well be
coming from a point source. As you move around the antenna,
it just looks like a point radiating energy.

In the near field, you can't neglect the fact that the
antenna has length and that the energy radiating from the
each point on it is not going to arrive at the same time.
Imagine the case where you have two point sources seperated
by a distance, and you're somewhere in between. Plot the
fields, and you'll see what I mean. Actually, you've already
done the calculations, the results are those wacky terms
you've been discussing.

The upshot of this is that a standing wave condition occurs
around the antenna. I know in quantum optics this is referred
to as the "storage field", but I'm a rf engineer so to
me it's just the reactive field of the antenna. To say that
energy is stored there is accurate but misleading perhaps,
as whats happening is the interfering travelling waves are
creating the standing wave pattern. As Flowers correctly
points out, one must consider the transient case. 

Look at material on RF cavities, its easy to generate
longitudinal magnetic modes. A few people (myself included) 
have considered this in light of the "new" physics and
tried to make velocity measurements. I used a mercury
switch interrupter with a signal source, using 55 gal
drums as cavity elements. And, indeed the signals propagated
at c. I've done experiments with shock excited antennas,
same thing. I want this to work as much as you, having
said that I'll state that I've yet to see conclusive
evidence of velocities exceeding c with the longitudinal
modes you mentioned. 

If you want more info, I'll email you the post I did to
vortex earlier this year concerning the drum experiments.
And if you do these experiments yourself, watch out
for surface waves generated by the fast switching, a
nasty source of artifact (or is it the baby, eh???)

K.

At 06:35 AM 7/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
>The 1/r^2 component of Jefimenko's solution is clearly a travelling 
>wave, and hence by definition a radiation field rather than a near 
>field. Further it is related to the source current by a factor of 
>1/c, while the 1/r field is related to the source current by 1/c^2. 
>It is maybe not so neglible as conventionally suggested. If the wave 
>is instaneous action at a distance -- it might be best veiwed
>as a near field. But then there would be other serious problems with
>conventional thinking.  
>
>> On this point, Stratton's Electromagnetic Theory text says:
>> "In the expansion of an electromagnetic field, only those terms that
>> vanish at infinity as 1/r give rise to radiation [meaning a net
>> irreversible transport of energy away from the source]. The terms in
>> 1/r^2 and 1/r^3 account for energy stored in the field, which
>> periodically flows out from the source and returns to it, without
>> ever being lost from the system."  (p. 437)
>
>I haven't seen the form of Stratton's solution for the 1/r^2 component, 
>but if it represents a travelling wave, as does Jefimenko's, then the
>above paragraph is not correct. In Jefimenko's solution, magnetic
>energy is propagating away from the source -- radiation which has 
>become unattached to the source.  



>> Here is an interesting question: All of the above (including
>> Jefimenko's analysis) applies only to the STEADY-PERIODIC conditions
>> that exist after the field pattern given by Jefimenko's solution
>> has been set up.
>
>Yes there is a transient problem. But in my opinion it exists primarily
>in the 1/r^3 field. The radiation fields, travelling waves, are by
>nature transient in time and space, which is the reason they are able 
>to cut lose from the source. Still begging the question of whether the 
>longitudinal 1/r^2 field is actually cut lose. 
> 
>> What is happening at the "leading edge" of the propagating wavefront
>> when the AC source is FIRST turned on?  Ie, at any distance r, when
>> r is of the order tc.
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 08:47:34 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04406;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:45:42 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:45:42 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A7B1B0.3E78 bellsouth.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:40:48 -0700
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20  (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Negative Resistance discovered??
References: <35A6DB18.395F keelynet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"HFgtt3.0.m41.aYufr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20490
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jerry W. Decker wrote:
> 
> Hi and Gnorts!
> 
> Received this most interesting email and I thought
> we should all get busy and try to track this down,
> for reasons I shouldn't have to elucidate;

Here is the complete article from UPI

       <><><><><><><><><><>

Xref: ix.netcom.com clari.biz.industry.energy:17093
clari.biz.industry.utilities:1363 clari.tw.science:7201
clari.tw.electronics:6414
clari.tw.top:16961 clari.biz:22056

LAS VEGAS, Nev., July 10 (UPI) -- Scientists say they have found a way
to produce a major facet of superconductivity at room temperature, one
that in the past could only exist at temperatures hundreds of degrees
below zero.

The feature is called zero resistance, and it allows electricity to flow
freely for long distances without losing its power along the way, say
investigators from the State University of New York at Buffalo.

Research leader Deborah D. L. Chung says she has created zero resistance
``without cooling and without a superconducting material.''

She used common carbon fiber composites -- lightweight, strong materials
found in everything from airplane wings and helicopter blades to tennis
rackets.

If the preliminary findings pan out, this could lead to faster, better
electrical devices and computers, says the scientist.

With her new technique, Chung says, ``We have already seen exact zero
electrical resistance at room temperature.''

But, experts in the field are extremely skeptical, saying that even the
basic premise is physically impossible.

Chung says the heart of her discovery is a peculiar phenomenon called
negative resistance, which occurs when electrons appear to travel in the
wrong direction, something experts say is as unnatural as water
spontaneously reversing course and flowing upstream.

In Chung's laboratory, it occurred when two layers of carbon materials
were fused at high pressures, causing electrons to appear to go the
wrong way at the junction point, she explains. She does not know why it
happened.

When combined with other materials with positive resistance, the
scientists came up with zero resistance, she says.

In a presentation Thursday at a scientific meeting in Las Vegas, she
said, ``Zero resistance means superconduction at room temperature.''

The scientists have filed a patent on the invention.

She points out that her research has not yielded a new superconductor,
because superconductors have other properties, like magnetic fields,
that are lacking in her discovery.

But, she adds, ``in terms of zero resistance it is like superconduction,
in spite of the fact that this is not technically a superconductor.''
Chung says she stumbled upon negative resistance about a year ago.

At first she did not believe it, ignoring it as a mistake in her
measurements. But when the same readings continued to come up month
after month, she decided that she had to look into it.

Superconductivity specialists are extremely skeptical about the finding.

Oak Ridge National Laboratory scientist Richard Kerchner says,
``Negative resistance is not possible. It makes no sense.''

He says that the scientists were probably observing a mechanical-
electrical effect, that gave the illusion of negative resistance.

Since 1986, scientists have yelled ``Eureka'' over superconduction at
room temperature a few times, only to be disappointed.

David K. Christen, another superconductivity specialist at Oak Ridge,
says that ``every one of them flopped.''

Based on the history, he says, ``I'm extremely skeptical.''

Superconductivity now has limited applications -- such as medical
imaging machines and experimental high-speed trains designed to speed
along on magnetic field cushions.

The stumbling block has been the need to use super-cool materials. So
getting superconductors to work at higher and higher temperatures has
been an intense research area, with a room temperature superconductor as
the Holy Grail.

Researchers at the meeting say the discovery is so new and surprising,
that they have not had time to muse upon potential applications.

Jason Lo of the Canada Center for Minerals and Energy Technology in
Ottawa, says, ``We are still in the shock phase.''

He says what the scientists have observed is like ``instead of seeing
water flowing downhill, they are seeing water flowing uphill.''

Lo says that the finding is preliminary, but if it can be confirmed and
successfully applied, ``I can assure you this is going to be very
significant.''

He says, ``Here we are talking about a new phenomenon.''  (Written by
Mara Bovsun in New York City) -=-=-

    C O P Y R I G H T * R E M I N D E R

   This article is Copyright 1998 by United Press International.    All
articles in the clari.* news hierarchy are Copyrighted and licensed to
ClariNet Communications Corp. for distribution.  Except for articles in
the biz.clarinet newsgroups, only paid subscribers may access these
articles. Any unauthorized access, reproduction or transmission is
strictly prohibited.    Details on the use of ClariNet material and
other info can be found in the user documentation section of <<our web
page>> <http://www.clari.net>.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 10:22:47 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21274;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:21:33 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:21:33 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:09:43 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807111313_MC2-52C9-2D1E compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"eN3IS2.0.KC5.Qyvfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20491
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; Larry Wharton >INTERNET:wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

Larry Wharton writes:

     Jed has quoted the preposterously high value of 10^23 atmospheres in a
     fully charged Palladium lattice.

I said that according to the Enyo theory, this pressure only exists in tiny
areas, a few atoms wide, and only on the surface and near surface layers of
atoms. The average pressure of electrolysis is given in the electrochemical
literature, and it is nothing like this. As Mitch Swartz pointed out, this
theory has not been broadly accepted. Enyo agrees that conventional theories
are valid for the cathode macroscopically, on average. The theory postulates
tiny local unbalanced areas of low and corresponding high pressures, centered
around surface irregularities and protrusions. Maximum loading of palladium is
1 atom of hydrogen for each atom of palladium (1 mole per mole).


     We have an estimate of 1.1 MJ released and only 650J of available
     chemical energy.  Estimating the volume of the palladium rod at 5 cc . .
     . 

What rod are we talking about here? The rod in the boil off experiments was
1.25 cm long, 2 mm in diameter. The volume is 0.039 cm^3. Wharton is off by a
factor of 100. The rod is 0.0044 moles of palladium, and it would hold 0.0044
moles of hydrogen or deuterium if it was fully loaded, which is practically
impossible. Burning this much hydrogen produces 605 joules.

Let us try to read the literature and keep the numbers straight here. Blue sky
hand waving about impossibly high loading and rods a hundred times larger than
the actual rod serve no purpose.


     Now a fully loaded palladium lattice should have an energy density
     exceeding that of high explosives by about a factor of 10.

I do not know where this number came from, but in fact high explosive energy
density (energy per unit of mass) is not particularly good. Coal is better,
and gasoline is much better. That is why rockets are powered by kerosene or
liquid hydrogen instead of TNT. Palladium hydride energy density is roughly
one-third of coal, I believe.


     I would take a potential of about 4 volts.  Then the energy density is

       E = 15000 * (11605/300) * 4 * .10133 J/cc = 235 KJ/cc

     for 5 cc this gives about 1.2 MJ or about the energy required.

That's way off! If that was the case, we would all be driving hydrogen powered
automobiles. That would make Pd hydride ten times better than gasoline,
storing roughly 20 eV per atom. No chemical fuel comes anywhere near that.
(Coal is the best, at 4 eV; gasoline is around 2 eV.) 

Wharton concludes:

     Is there anyone here who believes that 5 cc's of fully loaded palladium
     has the energy a 65 watt light bulb puts out in 10 seconds.  You have to
     be a real true believer to believe that.

Actually, it is common knowledge that palladium stores roughly this much
energy. In the 19th Century palladium used was used for cigarette lighters
because of this property. The Department of Energy and others have devoted
tens of millions of dollars to using palladium and Pd alloy hydrides to store
hydrogen gas, as an alternative to pressurized tanks, in hydrogen-powered
vehicles. As I said, if they had achieved the fabulous energy density
calculated by Wharton, this form of energy storage would have swept the
market. Alas, at is physically impossible by a factor of 5 or 10.

Metal hydride energy storage is impressive, but it falls far short of
gasoline, which holds ~210,000 joules per cc. Wharton may dispute this, so let
me give some examples. Imagine you take a small 5 cc vial of kerosene and fill
a Coleman lamp or a small glass table lamp. Light it, and turn the flame down
as low as you can to produce ~60 watts of light and heat. Bear in mind that
flames are less efficient at producing light than incandescent lights. You can
leave it lit all evening yet the fuel will hardly decrease measurably. In
fact, it will burn for two days. Look at the fuel tank on a whale oil lamp
used to light the compass card on a sailing ship, and bear in mind that the
lamp had to remain lit through long nights in the North Atlantic whaling
trade.

(PLEASE NOTE: never burn a kerosene lamp with only a little fuel. It may
explode. I do not think a nearly empty Coleman pump-pressurized lamp is
dangerous. I mentioned the compass card lights because they were designed to
burn as low as possible, and because ships and nautical gear are so splendid,
and always worth pondering.)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 10:29:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA22242;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:25:31 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:25:31 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A79E9B.48BFFF16 ro.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:19:23 -0500
From: "Patrick V. Reavis" <preavis ro.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: David Noever <david.noever msfc.nasa.gov>, David Noever <noever@webtv.net>,
        Lawrence Davis <ldavis ardmore.net>,
        Pete Skeggs <plskeggs inetarena.com>, Vortex-L <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Holy Grail of electricity claimed
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------75167C3F57AE711337316311"
Resent-Message-ID: <"X1nST3.0.OR5.60wfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20492
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------75167C3F57AE711337316311
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/upi/story.html?s=n/upi/98/07/10/general_news/ussuperco_1.html

--
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis


--------------75167C3F57AE711337316311
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="ussuperco_1.html"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ussuperco_1.html"
Content-Base: "http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/u
	pi/story.html?s=n/upi/98/07/10/gene
	ral_news/ussuperco_1.html"

<html>
<head>
</head>
<body>
<center>
<!--- DO NOT EDIT - GENERATED BY /home.feed.news -->
<map name="upi"> <area shape="rect" coords="0,0,210,57" href="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/"> <area shape="rect" coords="210,0,447,57" href="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/upi/?http://www.upi.com"> </map> <center><a href="http://www.yahoo.com/bin/menu3"><img wi

dth=447 height=57 border=0 alt=" Yahoo! Upi" src="http://us.yimg.com/i/dn/upi3.gif" usemap="#upi" ismap></a></center><p>
<p><a href="http://www.yahoo.com/M=15097.125681.1183527.6499/D=news/S=8115935:N/A=69056/?http://www.ktel.com/yahoo" target="_top"><img width=468 height=60 src="http://us.yimg.com/a/kt/k_tel/062598.gif" alt="* * * * TWO-MINUTE REGISTRATION REQUIRED * * * *

" border=0></a><p>
<center>
<table border=0 cellpadding=1 cellspacing=0>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffcc">
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/">Index</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
<td align=center> <center>
|
</center> </td>
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/top_stories/">Top&nbsp;Stories</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
<td align=center> <center>
|
</center> </td>
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/business/">Business</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
<td align=center> <center>
|
</center> </td>
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/technology/">Tech</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
<td align=center> <center>
|
</center> </td>
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/politics/">Politics</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
<td align=center> <center>
|
</center> </td>
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/world/">World</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
<td align=center> <center>
|
</center> </td>
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/health/">Health</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
<td align=center> <center>
|
</center> </td>
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/entertainment/">Entertainment</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
<td align=center> <center>
|
</center> </td>
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/sports/">Sports</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
<td align=center> <center>
|
</center> </td>
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/local/">Local</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
</center>
<p>
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=4 width="100%" >
<tr>
<td valign=middle align=center colspan=2>
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=4 width="100%">
<tr>
<td valign=middle bgcolor="#9999cc">
<font face="arial" size="+1"><b>Yahoo! News</b></font>
</td>
<td valign=middle align=right bgcolor="#9999cc">
<font face="arial" size="+1"><b>Human Interest Headlines </b></font>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
</center>
<title>Holy Grail of electricity claimed</title>

<hr>
<strong>
<!-- Yahoo TimeStamp: 900087566 -->
Friday July 10 12:19 PM EDT
</strong>
<h2>Holy Grail of electricity claimed</h2>
<!-- TextStart -->

<p>
	   LAS VEGAS, Nev., July 10 (UPI) - Scientists say they have found a way
to produce a major facet of superconductivity at room temperature, one
that in the past could only exist at temperatures hundreds of degrees
below zero.
<p>
	   The feature is called zero resistance, and it allows electricity to
flow freely for long distances without losing its power along the way,
say investigators from the State University of New York at Buffalo.
<p>
	   Research leader Deborah D. L. Chung says she has created zero
resistance ``without cooling and without a superconducting material.''
<p>
	   She used common carbon fiber composites _ lightweight, strong
materials found in everything from airplane wings and helicopter blades
to tennis rackets.
<p>
	   If the preliminary findings pan out, this could lead to faster,
better electrical devices and computers, says the scientist.
<p>
	   With her new technique, Chung says, ``We have already seen exact zero
electrical resistance at room temperature.''
<p>
	   But, experts in the field are extremely skeptical, saying that even
the basic premise is physically impossible.
<p>
	   Chung says the heart of her discovery is a peculiar phenomenon called
negative resistance, which occurs when electrons appear to travel in the
wrong direction, something experts say is as unnatural as water
spontaneously reversing course and flowing upstream.
<p>
	   In Chung's laboratory, it occurred when two layers of carbon
materials were fused at high pressures, causing electrons to appear to
go the wrong way at the junction point, she explains. She does not know
why it happened.
<p>
	   When combined with other materials with positive resistance, the
scientists came up with zero resistance, she says.
<p>
	   In a presentation Thursday at a scientific meeting in Las Vegas, she
said, ``Zero resistance means superconduction at room temperature.''
<p>
	   The scientists have filed a patent on the invention.
<p>
	   She points out that her research has not yielded a new
superconductor, because superconductors have other properties, like
magnetic fields, that are lacking in her discovery.
<p>
	   But, she adds, ``in terms of zero resistance it is like
superconduction, in spite of the fact that this is not technically a
superconductor.'' Chung says she stumbled upon negative resistance about
a year ago.
<p>
	   At first she did not believe it, ignoring it as a mistake in her
measurements. But when the same readings continued to come up month
after month, she decided that she had to look into it.
<p>
	   Superconductivity specialists are extremely skeptical about the
finding.
<p>
	   Oak Ridge National Laboratory scientist Richard Kerchner says, 
``Negative resistance is not possible. It makes no sense.''
<p>
	   He says that the scientists were probably observing a mechanical-
electrical effect, that gave the illusion of negative resistance.
<p>
	   Since 1986, scientists have yelled ``Eureka'' over superconduction at
room temperature a few times, only to be disappointed.
<p>
	   David K. Christen, another superconductivity specialist at Oak Ridge,
says that ``every one of them flopped.''
<p>
	   Based on the history, he says, ``I'm extremely skeptical.''
<p>
	   Superconductivity now has limited applications _ such as medical
imaging machines and experimental high-speed trains designed to speed
along on magnetic field cushions.
<p>
	   The stumbling block has been the need to use super-cool materials. So
getting superconductors to work at higher and higher temperatures has
been an intense research area, with a room temperature superconductor as
the Holy Grail.
<p>
	   Researchers at the meeting say the discovery is so new and
surprising, that they have not had time to muse upon potential
applications.
<p>
	   Jason Lo of the Canada Center for Minerals and Energy Technology in
Ottawa, says, ``We are still in the shock phase.''
<p>
	   He says what the scientists have observed is like ``instead of seeing
water flowing downhill, they are seeing water flowing uphill.''
<p>
	   Lo says that the finding is preliminary, but if it can be confirmed
and successfully applied, ``I can assure you this is going to be very
significant.''
<p>
	   He says, ``Here we are talking about a new phenomenon.''
<p>
 (Written by Mara Bovsun in New York City)
<p>
  
Copyright 1998 by United Press International
All rights reserved

<p>
<p>


<p>
<hr size=0>
<p>
<center><form action="http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news"><input size=25 name=p> <font size="-1">&nbsp; <input type=submit value="Search News"></font><input type=hidden name=n value=10></form></center><p>

<p>
<center>
</center>
<p>
<center>
<table border=0 cellpadding=1 cellspacing=0>
<tr bgcolor="#ffffcc">
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/">Index</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
<td align=center> <center>
|
</center> </td>
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/top_stories/">Top&nbsp;Stories</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
<td align=center> <center>
|
</center> </td>
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/business/">Business</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
<td align=center> <center>
|
</center> </td>
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/technology/">Tech</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
<td align=center> <center>
|
</center> </td>
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/politics/">Politics</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
<td align=center> <center>
|
</center> </td>
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/world/">World</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
<td align=center> <center>
|
</center> </td>
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/health/">Health</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
<td align=center> <center>
|
</center> </td>
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/entertainment/">Entertainment</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
<td align=center> <center>
|
</center> </td>
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/sports/">Sports</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
<td align=center> <center>
|
</center> </td>
<td align=center>
<center>
<font color="#000000" size="-1" face="Arial">
<nobr>&nbsp;<A HREF="/headlines/local/">Local</a>&nbsp;</nobr></font>
</center>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
</center>
<p>
<hr size=0>
<center>
<small>
<a href="http://www.yahoo.com/info/faq/news/human_interest_faq.html">Questions or Comments</a>
<br>
</small>
<font size="-1"><center>Copyright &copy: 1994-98 Yahoo! and UPI. All Rights Reserved. </center></font>
</center>
</body>
</html>



--------------75167C3F57AE711337316311--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 10:34:42 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14790;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:28:05 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:28:05 -0700
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:25:07 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat . . . correction
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807111327_MC2-52C3-FD6B compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"NO3TV.0.0d3.a2wfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20493
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; Larry Wharton >INTERNET:wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

I wrote:

     Metal hydride energy storage is impressive, but it falls far short of
     gasoline, which holds ~210,000 joules per cc.

I meant per 5 cc. We are talking about the energy density of a 5 cc sample of
material. I think 5 cc of gasoline weighs ~4 grams. 5 cc of palladium weighs
60 grams. You can see why hydride storage has not panned out.

Also please note that I said coal produces the highest number of electron
volts per atom, but gasoline and other hydrocarbons produce more energy per
unit of mass. That is because coal is all carbon, and carbon is heavier than
hydrogen.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 10:45:50 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17114;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:41:52 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:41:52 -0700
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:38:36 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Blue: need to test hypotheses . . .
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807111341_MC2-52CE-2372 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"JbS_62.0.BB4.VFwfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20494
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Dick Blue writes:

     Now I will continue by suggesting that among the things lacking in the
     P&F protocol, if there is such a thing, is any guiding understanding
     concerning the nature of the process being investigated.

I know nothing about theory, but I note that McKubre says we have the opposite
problem. There are too many theories to be investigated, and too many
experiments that cry out to be done, to test the many hypotheses that have
been proposed. He says we suffer an embarrasment of riches.


     Also, I have pointed out that there is something rather strange about
     attempting to investigate a supposed nuclear reaction process without
     making any use of features that are unique to such processes.
     Calorimetry is, in a sense, a last resort.  It responds to the energy
     release after it has been fully degraded to the thermal equilibrium of
     the surroundings. At that point heat is heat, and has lost entirely any
     characteristics that might identify its source or help to define its
     properties. . . .

     I therefore suggest that it makes good sense to design CF experiments
     around the detection of energetic events before that energy is all
     degraded into the surrounding thermal bath.  This is nothing new. It
     lies at the very heart and soul of experimental nuclear physics.

But of course! Experiments to detect neutrons, x-rays and so on have been
performed successfully from the beginning, using both autoradiographs and
on-line techniques. This is much harder than it sounds, but notable successes
have been reported, especially in the Italian national labs and over the last
few years at Mitsubishi. Blue has not read the literature, or he pretends he
does not know about this work.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 11:52:41 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24403;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:45:21 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:45:21 -0700
Message-Id: <35A7B2A8.A75984C2 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:44:56 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Negative Resistance discovered??
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F29016B16159AE0013E6BF85"
Resent-Message-ID: <"DnWyk1.0.Dz5.1Bxfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20495
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------F29016B16159AE0013E6BF85
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

An other related posting on the newsgroup having piece of original Press release from Uni. Buffalo:

http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=370150790&CONTEXT=900169260.1498742828&hitnum=0

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:      Re: Negative Resistance announced at serious conference!?
From:         ahu vvtp.tn.tudelft.nl (bert hubert)
Date:         1998/07/10
Message-ID:   <slrn6qbpgl.h5.ahu hubert.ds9a.tudelft.nl>
Newsgroups:   sci.physics.electromag 
[More Headers]
[Subscribe to sci.physics.electromag]

[snip]

They actually claim to see zero resistance:

                  "We have achieved zero resistance without cooling and
                  without a superconducting material," said Chung.

and


                  "We were looking at the effect of curing pressure on the
                  junction between carbon-fiber layers, and were making
                  electrical measurements of the interface," she said.
                  "When we saw the negative resistance at the interface,
                  we didn't believe it for quite a few months. But after
                  checking and rechecking our connections, using different
                  meters over a period of time and observing the
                  continuous change of resistance from positive to zero
                  and then to negative values during curing, we came to
                  realize that what we were seeing was truly negative
                  resistance."

[snip]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


It may me interesting to expose a tennis racket to E.M field.

I think the invention will not go to underground because, structures using composite carbon may cause dangerous electric currents and voltage buildups and these should be eliminated specially on aeronautical applications.


Regards,
hamdi ucar
--------------F29016B16159AE0013E6BF85
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="getdoc.xp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="getdoc.xp"
Content-Base: "http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=37
	0150790&CONTEXT=900169260.149874282
	8&hitnum=0"

<html>
<head>
<title>DN - Re: Negative Resistance announced at serious confe</title>
<meta name=keywords content="dejanews usenet newsgroup articles search query discussion">
<style>
<!-- .orange {color: #ff6600} -->
<!-- .red {color: #cc0000} -->
<!-- .yellow {color: #ffcc33} -->
<!-- .blue {color: #003399} -->
<!-- .black {color: #000000} -->
</style>

</head>

<body bgcolor=#ffffff text=#000000 link=#0000ff vlink=#52188c alink=#cc0000>








<p>
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width=662><tr><td width=520>
<a href="http://www.dejanews.com/nav_g.map"><img src="http://g.dejanews.com/gifs/nav_g2.gif" alt="Deja News Toolbar" width=520 height=60 usemap="#nav_g.map" ismap border=0></a></td>
<td width=12>&nbsp;</td>
<td width=130 align=center valign=middle>

 

</td></tr>
</table>


<map name="nav_g.map">
    <area shape="rect" coords="0,0,140,60" href="http://www.dejanews.com/" alt="Home">
    <area shape="rect" coords="210,0,470,15" href="http://www.dejanews.com/emarket" alt="About Deja News">
    <area shape="rect" coords="174,20,210,60" href="http://www.dejanews.com/" alt="Search">
    <area shape="rect" coords="238,20,280,60" href="http://www.dejanews.com/categories.shtml" alt="Browse">
    <area shape="rect" coords="300,20,360,60" href="http://www.dejanews.com/post.xp?NG=sci.physics.electromag" alt="Post">
    <area shape="rect" coords="388,20,452,60" href="http://www.dejanews.com/rg_enter.xp" alt="My Deja News">
    <area shape="rect" coords="478,20,504,60" href="http://www.dejanews.com/help/help_index.shtml" alt="Help">
    <area shape="default" nohref alt="">
</map>



<br clear=all>

<p>


<table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width=520><tr><td align=center>
<table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width=470 border=0><tr><td>
<A HREF="http://gp2.dejanews.com/gtc?id=16229&tm=900169284.407370&site=dn&location=sci.physics.electromag&keywords=chung%20resistance&cr=%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c">
<IMG ALIGN=MIDDLE HEIGHT=60 WIDTH=468 SRC="http://cds.mediaplex.com/102/1047d/1085.cgi" ALT="Click here for Datek Online" border=1></A></td></tr><tr align=center><td><font size=-1><A HREF="http://gp2.dejanews.com/gtc?id=16229&tm=900169284.407370&site=dn&l

ocation=sci.physics.electromag&keywords=chung%20resistance&cr=%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c">
Click here for Datek Online</a></font></td></tr>
</table>



</td></tr></table>

<br>
<table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2 width=520 border=0><tr bgcolor=#003399><td align=left><font face="arial,helvetica" color=#ffcc33><b>&nbsp;Article 1 of  exactly 26</b></font></td></tr></table>











<table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width=520 border=0><tr align=center valign=middle>
<td width=15>&nbsp;</td>

  <td><b><font size=+2 face="arial,helvetica" color="#666666">&lt;&lt;</font></b><br><font color="#999999">Previous<br>Article</font></td>

<td width=10>&nbsp;</td>

  
    <td><A class=orange HREF="http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=370218918&CONTEXT=900169260.1498742828&hitnum=1"><b><font size=+2 face="arial,helvetica" color="#ff6600">&gt;&gt;</font></b><br><font color="#ff6600">Next<br>Article</font></A></td>
  

<td width=25>&nbsp;</td>

  <td><A class=black HREF="http://x9.dejanews.com/dnquery.xp?search=next&ST=QS&offsets=&CONTEXT=900169260.1498742828"><b><font size=+2 face="arial,helvetica" color="#000000">/\</font></b><br><font color="#000000">Current<br>Results</font></A></td>

<td width=80% align=center>
<table border=2 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td align=center>
<a href="maf_enter.xp?SUB=Re:%20Negative%20Resistance%20announced%20at%20serious%20conference!%3f&AN=370150790&DBS=2&continue=http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp%3fAN%3d370150790%26CONTEXT%3d900169260.1498742828%26hitnum%3d0"><img src="http://g.dejanews.com/

gifs/maf.gif" alt="Email a Friend" border=0 width=120 height=25></a>
<br>
<a href="maf_enter.xp?SUB=Re:%20Negative%20Resistance%20announced%20at%20serious%20conference!%3f&AN=370150790&DBS=2&continue=http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp%3fAN%3d370150790%26CONTEXT%3d900169260.1498742828%26hitnum%3d0"><font size=1 face="arial,helveti

ca">Email this message!</font></a>
</td></tr></table>
</td>
<td align=left nowrap>
<table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr valign=middle><td align=left nowrap>
<li><A HREF="help/help_art.shtml"><font size=-1 color="#ff6600">Help</font></A></li>

  <li><A HREF="profile.xp?author=ahu vvtp.tn.tudelft.nl%20(bert%20hubert)&ST=PS"><font size=-1 color="#ff6600">Author Profile</font></A></li>


  <li><A HREF="http://x9.dejanews.com/dnquery.xp?search=thread&filter=%7bdb98p3x%20%7b%7b%7ec%20%7b%23*%23%20%26!%20(sex%20%7c%20jobs%20%7c%20fs)%7d%7d%7d%7d&svcclass=dncurrent&threaded=1&ST=PS&CONTEXT=900169260.1498742828&HIT_CONTEXT=900169260.1498742828

&HIT_NUM=0&recnum=%3cslrn6qbpgl.h5.ahu hubert.ds9a.tudelft.nl%3e%231/1"><font size=-1 color="#ff6600">View Thread</font></A></li>

</td>
<td align=left nowrap>
<li><A HREF="/=zzz_post_new/post.xp?NG=sci.physics.electromag"><font size=-1 color="#ff6600">Post New</font></A></li>

  <li><A HREF="/=zzz_post_reply/post.xp?NG=sci.physics.electromag&SUB=Re:%20Negative%20Resistance%20announced%20at%20serious%20conference!%3f&REF=%3cslrn6qbpgl.h5.ahu hubert.ds9a.tudelft.nl%3e&AN=370150790"><font size=-1 color="#ff6600">Post Reply</font><

/A></li>


  <li><A HREF="/jump/mailto:ahu vvtp.tn.tudelft.nl"><font size=-1 color="#ff6600">Email Reply</font></A></li>

</td>
<td align=left nowrap>

  <li><A HREF="http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=370150790"><font size=-1 color="#ff6600">Bookmark</font></A></li>

<li><a href="http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=370150790&CONTEXT=900169260.1498742828&hitnum=0&fmt=raw"><font size=-1 color="#ff6600">Text Only</font></A></li>

</td>
</tr>

</table></td></tr></table>








<hr width=520 align=left size=1 noshade>
<pre><b>Subject:      <font size=+1 color="#cc0000">Re: Negative Resistance announced at serious conference!?</font>
From:         ahu vvtp.tn.tudelft.nl (bert hubert)
Date:         1998/07/10
Message-ID:   &lt;slrn6qbpgl.h5.ahu hubert.ds9a.tudelft.nl&gt;
Newsgroups:   sci.physics.electromag </b>
<font size=-1>[<a href="http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=370150790&CONTEXT=900169260.1498742828&hitnum=0&AH=1">More Headers</a>]</font>
<font size=-1>[<a href="rg_subng.xp?group=sci.physics.electromag">Subscribe to sci.physics.electromag</a>]</font>
</pre>



<pre>
On 10 Jul 1998 03:38:13 GMT, Harry H Conover wrote:

&gt;1958.  It is not indicative of superconductivity, being best 
&gt;exemplified by the &quot;Tunnel Diode&quot; semiconductor devices of some
&gt;years back.  
&gt;
&gt;I will try and read this paper.

They actually claim to see zero <B>resistance</B>:

                  &quot;We have achieved zero <B>resistance</B> without cooling and
                  without a superconducting material,&quot; said <B>Chung</B>.

and


                  &quot;We were looking at the effect of curing pressure on the
                  junction between carbon-fiber layers, and were making
                  electrical measurements of the interface,&quot; she said.
                  &quot;When we saw the negative <B>resistance</B> at the interface,
                  we didn't believe it for quite a few months. But after
                  checking and rechecking our connections, using different
                  meters over a period of time and observing the
                  continuous change of <B>resistance</B> from positive to zero
                  and then to negative values during curing, we came to
                  realize that what we were seeing was truly negative
                  <B>resistance</B>.&quot;

This is the CV of D. <B>Chung</B>:

                 Deborah D. L. <B>Chung</B>, Ph. D

                 Niagara Mohawk Chair Professor of Material Engineering
                 Professor


  Areas of Interest:  Materials science and engineering, particularly smart
                      materials, concrete, battery electrode materials,
                      carbon fibers and filaments, composites processing
                      and interfaces, metal-matrix composites, electronic
                      packaging materials, and polysilicon.

  Background:         Ph.D., Degree in Materials Science, Massachusetts
                      Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA, 1977

                      S.M., Degree in Materials Science, Massachusetts
                      Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA, 1975

                      M.S., Engineering Science, California Institute of
                      Technology, Pasadena, CA, 1973

                      B.S., Engineering and Applied Science, California
                      Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA, 1973



-- 
    Delft University   |            How is Linux like The Prodigy? 
     of Technology,    | Bill: I've got the poison/Linus: I've got the remedy
 Department of Physics |          Inspice et cautus eris - D11T'95
</pre>



<table width=520 border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr>
<td>



</td><td align=right>

<A HREF="/=zzz_post_c/post.xp?NG=sci.physics.electromag&SUB=Re:%20Negative%20Resistance%20announced%20at%20serious%20conference!%3f&REF=%3cslrn6qbpgl.h5.ahu hubert.ds9a.tudelft.nl%3e&AN=370150790"><img src="http://g.dejanews.com/gifs/reply_c.gif" height=3

3 width=81 border=0></A>


</td></tr></table>


<hr width=520 align=left>


<table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width=520><tr><td align=center>
<table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width=470 border=0><tr><td>
<A HREF="http://gp2.dejanews.com/gtc?id=16229&tm=900169284.407370&site=dn&location=sci.physics.electromag&keywords=chung%20resistance&cr=%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c">
<IMG ALIGN=MIDDLE HEIGHT=60 WIDTH=468 SRC="http://cds.mediaplex.com/102/1047d/1085.cgi" ALT="Click here for Datek Online" border=1></A></td></tr><tr align=center><td><font size=-1><A HREF="http://gp2.dejanews.com/gtc?id=16229&tm=900169284.407370&site=dn&l

ocation=sci.physics.electromag&keywords=chung%20resistance&cr=%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c">
Click here for Datek Online</a></font></td></tr>
</table>
</td></tr></table>




<table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width=520 border=0><tr align=center valign=middle>
<td width=15>&nbsp;</td>

  <td><b><font size=+2 face="arial,helvetica" color="#666666">&lt;&lt;</font></b><br><font color="#999999">Previous<br>Article</font></td>

<td width=10>&nbsp;</td>

  
    <td><A class=orange HREF="http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=370218918&CONTEXT=900169260.1498742828&hitnum=1"><b><font size=+2 face="arial,helvetica" color="#ff6600">&gt;&gt;</font></b><br><font color="#ff6600">Next<br>Article</font></A></td>
  

<td width=25>&nbsp;</td>

  <td><A class=black HREF="http://x9.dejanews.com/dnquery.xp?search=next&ST=QS&offsets=&CONTEXT=900169260.1498742828"><b><font size=+2 face="arial,helvetica" color="#000000">/\</font></b><br><font color="#000000">Current<br>Results</font></A></td>

<td width=80% align=center>
<table border=2 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td align=center>
<a href="maf_enter.xp?SUB=Re:%20Negative%20Resistance%20announced%20at%20serious%20conference!%3f&AN=370150790&DBS=2&continue=http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp%3fAN%3d370150790%26CONTEXT%3d900169260.1498742828%26hitnum%3d0"><img src="http://g.dejanews.com/

gifs/maf.gif" alt="Email a Friend" border=0 width=120 height=25></a>
<br>
<a href="maf_enter.xp?SUB=Re:%20Negative%20Resistance%20announced%20at%20serious%20conference!%3f&AN=370150790&DBS=2&continue=http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp%3fAN%3d370150790%26CONTEXT%3d900169260.1498742828%26hitnum%3d0"><font size=1 face="arial,helveti

ca">Email this message!</font></a>
</td></tr></table>
</td>
<td align=left nowrap>
<table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr valign=middle><td align=left nowrap>
<li><A HREF="help/help_art.shtml"><font size=-1 color="#ff6600">Help</font></A></li>

  <li><A HREF="profile.xp?author=ahu vvtp.tn.tudelft.nl%20(bert%20hubert)&ST=PS"><font size=-1 color="#ff6600">Author Profile</font></A></li>


  <li><A HREF="http://x9.dejanews.com/dnquery.xp?search=thread&filter=%7bdb98p3x%20%7b%7b%7ec%20%7b%23*%23%20%26!%20(sex%20%7c%20jobs%20%7c%20fs)%7d%7d%7d%7d&svcclass=dncurrent&threaded=1&ST=PS&CONTEXT=900169260.1498742828&HIT_CONTEXT=900169260.1498742828

&HIT_NUM=0&recnum=%3cslrn6qbpgl.h5.ahu hubert.ds9a.tudelft.nl%3e%231/1"><font size=-1 color="#ff6600">View Thread</font></A></li>

</td>
<td align=left nowrap>
<li><A HREF="/=zzz_post_new/post.xp?NG=sci.physics.electromag"><font size=-1 color="#ff6600">Post New</font></A></li>

  <li><A HREF="/=zzz_post_reply/post.xp?NG=sci.physics.electromag&SUB=Re:%20Negative%20Resistance%20announced%20at%20serious%20conference!%3f&REF=%3cslrn6qbpgl.h5.ahu hubert.ds9a.tudelft.nl%3e&AN=370150790"><font size=-1 color="#ff6600">Post Reply</font><

/A></li>


  <li><A HREF="/jump/mailto:ahu vvtp.tn.tudelft.nl"><font size=-1 color="#ff6600">Email Reply</font></A></li>

</td>
<td align=left nowrap>

  <li><A HREF="http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=370150790"><font size=-1 color="#ff6600">Bookmark</font></A></li>

<li><a href="http://x9.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=370150790&CONTEXT=900169260.1498742828&hitnum=0&fmt=raw"><font size=-1 color="#ff6600">Text Only</font></A></li>

</td>
</tr>

</table></td></tr></table>




<table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 border=0 width=520>
<tr align=center><td><hr align=left noshade size=1 width=100%>
<font size=-1>
<a href="http://gp.dejanews.com/gtplacer?site=dn&location=link.home.infospace&cid=192100124">Directories</a> &nbsp;|&nbsp;
<a href="http://gp.dejanews.com/gtplacer?site=dn&location=link.home.whowhere&cid=192100124">Find People Now!</a> &nbsp;|&nbsp;
<a href="http://gp.dejanews.com/gtplacer?site=dn&location=link.home.class2000&cid=192100124">Classifieds</a> &nbsp;|&nbsp;
<a href="http://gp.dejanews.com/gtplacer?site=dn&location=link.home.uswest&cid=192100124">Yellow Pages</a>
<br> 
<a href="http://gp.dejanews.com/gtplacer?site=dn&location=link.home.dni&cid=192100124">Register Your Domain Name</a> &nbsp;|&nbsp;
<a href="http://gp.dejanews.com/gtplacer?site=dn&location=link.home.auctions&cid=192100124">Auctions</a> &nbsp;|&nbsp;
<a href="http://gp.dejanews.com/gtplacer?site=dn&location=link.home.emaildirect&cid=192100124">Free Coupons!</a>
</font>

<p>
<font size=-1>
<a href="http://www.dejanews.com/help/newusers.shtml">New Users</a> &#183;
<a href="http://www.dejanews.com/emarket/">About Deja News</a> &#183;
<a href="http://www.dejanews.com/emarket/programs/">Ad Info</a> &#183;
<a href="http://www.dejanews.com/emarket/programs/ad_index.shtml">Our Advertisers</a>
<br>
<a href="http://www.dejanews.com/rg_enter.xp">Free Web Email</a> &#183;
<a href="http://www.dejanews.com/info/linkback.shtml">Link to Deja News</a> &#183;
<a href="http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp">Create Your Own Forum</a>
</font>
<p>
<font size=-1>
<a href="http://www.dejanews.com/home_qs.shtml">Home</a> &nbsp;&#183;&nbsp;
<a href="http://www.dejanews.com/home_qs.shtml">Search</a> &nbsp;&#183;&nbsp;
<a href="http://www.dejanews.com/categories.shtml">Browse</a> &nbsp;&#183;&nbsp;
<a href="http://www.dejanews.com/post.xp">Post</a> &nbsp;&#183;&nbsp;
<a href="http://www.dejanews.com/rg_enter.xp">My Deja News</a> &nbsp;&#183;&nbsp;
<a href="http://www.dejanews.com/help/help_index.shtml">Help</a> &nbsp;&#183;&nbsp;
<a href="http://www.dejanews.com/forms/dnsurvey.shtml">How are we doing?</a>
</font>

<p>
<hr width=325>
<font size=-1>Copyright &copy; 1995-98 <a href="http://www.dejanews.com/emarket/">Deja News, Inc.</A> All rights reserved.
<a href="http://www.dejanews.com/info/policy.shtml">Conditions of use</a>.</font>



</td></tr></table>

</BODY>
</HTML>

--------------F29016B16159AE0013E6BF85--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 12:02:37 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06988;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:01:09 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:01:09 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A7B40A.128C keelynet.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:50:50 -0500
From: "Jerry W. Decker" <jdecker keelynet.com>
Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Negative Resistance discovered??
References: <35A6DB18.395F keelynet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"LQqKP3.0.6j1.pPxfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20497
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts!

Here are Tom Beardens interesting comments on the negative resistance
phenomenon;
===========
Hi Jerry,

Thanks for the info.

True negative resistance just means a "resistor" or 
other component that outputs more energy than it inputs.

Let's look at one attribute:

In forward time, a positive resistor is an element that 
diverges and scatters energy from a flow of energy 
passing through it.  At least that definition is good 
enough for government work. 

The same unit, in negative time, would be gathering 
"convergent" energy and outputting it as a coherent 
energy flow.  Just take a video tape of the forward 
time process, so to speak, and play it in reverse to 
see this.

So one way to produce a true negative resistor in 
electrical circuitry, is to somehow produce a material 
or component that causes a convergence (i.e., negative 
divergence) of the otherwise divergent energy of a 
normal resistance, and outputs that reconverged energy 
in a coherent energy flow or stream.

The key here is time reversal.  Well, one way to do 
that is to cause a phase conjugation in something 
resembling a resistor material.  Phase conjugate 
reflection is a time-reversal, or retroreflection.

Remember that energy cannot be created nor destroyed.  
You never "use" energy.

When you do work, all you do is diverge the energy, 
change its form, or a combination of the two.  When you 
use one joule of energy to do one joule of work, you 
still have a joule of energy left, but in different 
form -- in the common resistor, in scattered form.

Note in several presentations I used a gedanken 
experiment process whereby one feeds power into a 
resistor in a chamber, whose walls are phase conjugate
mirror reflectors.  Let us use the reflection 
coefficient x, which is the fraction of energy 
impinging upon the mirror surface that is retroreflected.

Note that, as compared to ordinary mirror reflection, 
pure retroreflection is pure reconvergence, not just 
redirection.

Now suppose we can build mirror inner chamber walls 
with values of x such that 0<=x<=1. 

At x = 0, we just have an ordinary resistor.  And 
this also means that the heat energy impinging on 
the inner chamber walls passes through the walls and
outside.  Let things reach equilibrium.  With careful 
measurements, we establish that precisely as much 
heat is produced from outside the cylinder as the 
electrical energy we are feeding into the inside 
resistor.  So far, normal stuff.

Now suppose that x = 0.1, and the transmission 
coefficient y of the chamber walls is 0.9.  That is, 
for every joule of energy from the resistor hitting 
the inside wall, 0.1 joule is retroreflected 
perfectly back to the resistor, and 0.9 joules passes 
through the walls and radiates out into space.

Suppose we continue to steadily feed the same power 
into the resistor in these circumstances.  A rather 
strange thing happens.  The energy in the chamber
steadily grows by a series that is divergent.  So 
the energy in the chamber increases without bounds 
as a function of time passing.  Also, the energy
density  outside the walls and radiatiing away at 
any time, is some 0.9 of the energy density inside 
the chamber and on the walls. So the energy density
radiating away from the entire cylinder steadily 
increases as a function of time.  Yet I am only 
inputting steadily the same energy rate (let us 
say, one joule per second, or one watt).

As you can see, we can achieve any energy density 
or power we wish, from any finite and steady energy 
input.  This is rigorous.  If it could hold together,
such an apparatus could eventually produce a new 
Big Bang, blow a hole in 4-space out into n-space, 
and create another 4-space universe.

In the real world, materials change nonlinearly as 
the energy density rises, and eventually the 
materials rupture, etc.  I have a drawing which 
shows some energetic processes of such an iterative 
retroreflection process, assuming that the materials 
hold together to a certain point then relax and alter
coefficients, producing a stable level of overunity 
in each case.  Upper levels of the process include 
the gamma bursters, the processes consistent with 
pair production, and ultimately the process 
generating a Big Bang itself.

Anyway, the process shows that AFTER I use energy 
once in a component  to do work, the escaping energy 
resulting can be regathered (reconverged by
retroreflection) and used again.  And again, and again, 
and again.  The universe does this all the time.  We are 
told that all the energy in the universe existed shortly 
after the big bang got going originally.  And every
joule of that originally energy has been doing joule 
after joule of work, ever since.

Most researchers do not comprehend the real conservation 
of energy law: Energy can neither be created nor 
destroyed.  And it can be "regathered" and reused,
without limit.  You can get many joules of work from 
a single joule of energy, IF you iteratively 
retroreflect and keep bringing much of the energy back,
over and over.

Unfortunately, our profs unwittingly ASSUMED one pass 
of the energy, no multiple passes allows and no 
retroreflection allowed, and so taught us erroneously 
that a joule of energy could produce only one joule 
of work -- failing to add "in a single pass work 
(energy scattering) process."

Rigorously, they taught us only a special case of 
the more general work energy theorem,, which I 
corrected about three years ago.

To slant back now toward what the scientists did at 
Buffalo for a negative resistance or perhaps what they did.

Instead of the chamber and resistor etc., we just look 
inside composite carbon materials.   Suppose we get 
the material so that in the lattice spaces and between 
various atoms, etc., we can treat things as a bunch 
of little cavities without surroundings that can and 
do perform some phase conjugation.  We visualize the 
material as a sort of resistor, and the energy (normal 
sense) being "multiply scattered" here and there 
between particles or grains, as it works it way out 
of the material and radiates away as scattered energy or
heat.

Now as it is working through the material, it is 
impinging upon grain after grain.  Let's look at one 
little grain, with twin photons impinging on it from
opposite sides, and a third photon hitting it from 
the end.  Well, that thing is a sort of little 
"phase conjugate mirror."  And it's pumped by the two
oppositive photons.  This means that it can gather up 
to all the energy in the two photons, and output them 
as a phase conjugate replica of the impinging photon 
from the end.  That means that, wherever that "signal 
wave" photon that hit the end came from (which other 
grain), an amplified phase conjugate precisely returns.

When you multiply this process, what happens is that 
the energy density of the region where this "intense 
multiple scattering" is ongoing, the potential (energy 
density) is rising.  Technically that is called 
asymmetrical self-regauging.  That condition is one 
condition for an overunity EM process. 

As the potential rises in the scattering material, 
the energy density of the material rises.  Let us 
assume that this process levels off nonlinearly, to
reach a plateau such that twice the energy density 
as one inputs to the device is escaping from the 
device and radiating away from it.

There you have your negative resistor, made of 
intensely scattering material.

In this case, probably a composite carbon compound 
or admixture, etc..

It is perfectly possible to have such a material, 
such a process, and such a negative resistor, without 
violating the laws of physics or the laws of thermodynamics.  
You have an open system, freely receiving excess energy 
from the vacuum (all local potentials are actually 
changes to the vacuum potential, or to an intermediate 
potential that itself is a change to the vacuum potential).

Note that from any finite potential phi, you can 
collect all the energy you wish, simply by having 
sufficient collectors (charges).  That's just the
simple law W = (phi)q, where W is energy collected on 
q coulombs of collecting charges.

>From any finite (phi), just add enough q, and you can 
collect an  unlimited amount of energy.;  that's because 
rigorously a scalar potential is a multivector 
(multiwavepair set) and a multiple bidirectional flow 
process, as shown by E.T. Whittaker in 1903.

The anti-Stokes emission process is always overunity, 
as has been known for 50 years.  And it uses a variation 
of the above mechanism (multipass, multiple 
retroreflection to provide asymmetrical self-regauging).

The Patterson process uses the same mechanism.  And it 
has been independently measured as high as COP = 1200, 
so long as his palladium cladding stayed on his 
microspheres.  In that case, the "buildup" of the 
asymmetrical self-regauging (and the growth of the energy 
density and consequently the growth of the heat escaping) 
often took many hours.  

When the input to the machine was cut off, the decay then 
took many hours also, as it kept right on emitting energy 
for awhile, the energy coming from the vacuum via 
asymmetrical self-regauging.

The Lawandy lasing without population inversion (several 
nice reports, several nice patents) is also a variation 
of the same process.

So there is a very solid basis for a negative resistor 
made of such material as reported by the Buffalo 
researchers.  If I had a materials lab, that's 
precisely the type of material and "negative resistance" 
I would have gone after.

We should add one thing.  All charges (magnetic or 
electrical) are broken symmetries in the active vacuum 
flux (the fierce virtual particle exchange between the 
vacuum and the charge).  That means that part of the 
incoming virtual energy that is absorbed, is reradiated 
as virtual particles.  

However, part of it is radiated in "bunches" sufficiently 
big enough to affect and move normal charges, and hence 
constitutes "observable" energy flow.  This has been 
well-known in particle physics for four decades, but is 
absent from electrodynamics.  Every charge in the universe 
is already a free-energy machine, pouring forth energy 
incessantly in observable form (and some in virtual form 
also).  So any dipole is also a broken symmetry in the 
vacuum flux, and also a Poynting energy flow generator.

>From the source dipole of a generator or a battery, 
there thus incessantly pours a flood of energy, 
filling all space around the conductors and moving
essentially parallel to the conductors in the space 
surrounding them.  

Only a tiny fraction of that enormous flow strikes 
the surface charges in the wire and gets diverged 
into the wire to power the electrons as current.  
All the rest of the enormous energy flow passes right 
on off into space and is not collected and used by 
our feeble circuits.  

One can show (I've done the calculation) that in 
a simple circuit, about 10exp13 as much energy flow 
escapes (is nondivergent) as is intercepted, collected, 
and used (i.e., as is diverged to power the electrons 
as current).

So every circuit we build produces enormously more 
energy than we even dream of.  Lorentz unfortunately 
taught the electrodynamicists a little trick to
discard that entire nondivergent portion of the 
energy flow surrounding the circuit.

A single human body, e.g., produces as much "total 
energy flow" as all electrical loads on earth use.  
The body produces about 10exp15 watts, if all
the energy flow could be diverged and used.  But since 
its reaction coefficient is about 10exp(-13), the body 
is able to intercept and collect and use only 
about 100 watts. of power.

There is NO PROBLEM in collecting all the energy one 
wishes from the vacuum.

That is already done in spades by every charge in 
the universe.  There is no problem in putting out 
that collected and gated energy flow; every charge and
every dipole already does this, enormously.  

There is only a problem of intercepting, collecting, 
and using to do work in the load, a greater fraction
of the enormous energy flow already extracted by all 
our devices.

Note that when we retroreflect iteratively, we pass 
that enormous 10exp13 nondivergent component of the 
flow back across the collecting charges again and 
again.  That allows additional collection.  

THAT is where the ability of the "negative resistor" 
process comes from, to produce more energy out that
the energy you input (BY YOUR NORMAL CALCULATIONS).  

If you count the nondivergent portion of the energy 
input, you already input enormously more energy 
than you were ever taught or than you ever knew.  

About 10exp13 times as much!

So I suspect something like this explains what the 
Buffalo researchers are really doing.

However, since they reported it as "room temperature 
superconductivity," I suspect that they also filed 
a patent application (universities are very keen on 
that now) and ran afoul of defense security 
classification.  

The DOD and Intel folks who review the patent 
applications for possible security classification 
would have recognized that and reacted.  That 
very well may explain the disappearance of the web 
site entry.  The patent application itself may have 
been classified.

Anyhow, hope this helps.  I'm glad to see someone do 
it -- ANYONE do it. Now if the powers that be will 
get off the unnecessary classification routine and
let them get on with it, they could have a real boon 
to mankind.

A negative resistor, of course, is after all just 
a straightforward overunity EM device.

Cheers,
Tom Bearden
-- 
            Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
          http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
             ICQ # - 13175100   /   AOL - Keelyman
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 12:00:42 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26829;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:57:11 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:57:11 -0700
Message-Id: <35A7B56C.87C5D529 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:56:44 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Negative Resistance discovered??
References: <35A7B2A8.A75984C2 verisoft.com.tr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"MJHbT2.0.6Z6.6Mxfr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20496
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Sorry, I forgot to reomve the attachment at my previous posting.

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 13:20:58 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21030;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:18:45 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:18:45 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:04:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Negative Resistance discovered??
In-Reply-To: <35A7B1B0.3E78 bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980711160331.26957F-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"OIRiP2.0.Q85.WYyfr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20498
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



	Anyone get the original site postiing?  Or E mail or pphysical
addr for Chung? 



				Thanks,

					J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 15:49:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20433;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:42:26 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:42:26 -0700
Message-ID: <19980711215241.19085.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:52:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Negative Resistance discovered??
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"K6pO13.0.B_4.Hf-fr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20499
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello John,

Remembering that you are HTTP challenged, here is the info from
buffalo.edu.  I still haven't see copies of the original press
release, but several folks have posted the UPI and yahoo.com
summaries.   Please let us know any info that you get from her that
can be shared.......

Couple points from some of the other email I have read:

1 - This lady seem very well versed with materials engineering. My
first thought was that perhaps the articles had been retracted due to
invalid results.  After looking thru the article titles, I am have the
opinion that she is probably correct.

2 - Bearden has a valid point.  National Security will probably keep
the wraps on this one.  Hope we don't all get a visit by MIBs just for
the small bit that we now know ;)

3 - However she got the results, I am willing to guess that this is
far more complex than the standard carbon fiber layups that most of us
have seen.  Pressure and special bonding/layering was probably
used.....but of course it won't stop me from crushing carbon-fibers in
my handy vise and applying voltage!



Enjoy

Anton Rager
Denver, CO
a_rager yahoo.com

------------------------------------------------------
Site: 
http://www.eng.buffalo.edu/Departments/mae/FACULTY/FACULTY/CHUNG/text.html

Deborah D. L. Chung, Ph. D 

Niagara Mohawk Chair Professor of Material Engineering Professor 

Office: 
608 Furnas Hall
                                                       Address: 
608 Furnas Hall 
Dept. of Mech & Aero Eng. 
University at Buffalo 
Buffalo, NY 14260 
                                                      
Telephone: (716)645-2593 x2243 
FAX: (716)645-3875
Email: dlchung acsu.buffalo.edu

Areas of Interest:
Materials science and engineering, particularly smart materials,
concrete, battery electrode materials, carbon fibers and filaments,
composites processing and interfaces, metal-matrix composites,
electronic packaging materials, and polysilicon.

Background:
Ph.D., Degree in Materials Science, Massachusetts Institute o
Technology, Cambridge, MA, 1977S.M., Degree in Materials Science,
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA, 1975

M.S., Engineering Science, California Institute of Technology,
Pasadena, CA, 1973

B.S., Engineering and Applied Science, California Institute of
Technology, Pasadena, CA, 1973


Selected Papers,Publications, & Presentations:
X. Wang and D.D.L. Chung, "Short Carbon Fiber Reinforced Epoxy as a
Piezoresistive StrainSensor," Smart Materials and Structures, 4, 1995.

Y. Chen and D.D.L. Chung, "Ductile and Strong Aluminum-Matrix Titanium
Aluminide Composite Formed In-Situ from Aluminum, Titanium Dioxide and
Sodium Hexafluoroaluminate", Journal of Materials Science, 30, 1995.

X. Fu and D.D.L. Chung, "Contact Electrical Resistivity between Cement
and Carbon Fiber: Its Decrease with Increasing Bond Strength and Its
Increase During Fiber Pull Out," Cement and Concrete Research, 25(7),
1995.

X. Fu and D.D.L. Chung, "Linear Correlation of Bond Strength and
Contact Electrical Resistivity Between Steel Rebar and Concrete,"
Cement and Concrete Research, 25(7), 1995. 

X. Shui, C.A. Frysz, and D.D.L. Chung, "Solvent Cleansing of the
Surface of Carbon Filaments and Its Benefit to the Electrochemical
Behavior," Carbon, 33(12), 1995.

N. Sridhar, D.D.L. Chung, W.A. Anderson, and J. Coleman,
"Thermodynamics and Kinetics of Hydrogen Evolution from Hydrogenated
Amorphous Silicon Films," Journal of Electronic Materials, 24(10), 1995.

N. Sridhar, D.D.L. Chung, W.A. Anderson, and J. Coleman, "Polysilicon
Films of High Photoresponse, Obtained by Vacuum Annealing of Aluminum
Capped Hydrogenated Amorphous Silicon," Journal of Applied Physics,
78(12), 1995.

S.W. Hudnut and D.D.L. Chung, "Use of Submicron Diameter Carbon
Filaments for Reinforcement Between Continuous Carbon Fiber Layers in
a Polymer-Matrix Composite," Carbon, 33(11), 1995.

P. Yih and D.D.L. Chung, "Powder Metallurgy Fabrication of Metal
Matrix Composites Using Coated Fillers," International Journal Powder
Metallurgy, 31(4), 1995.

P-W. Chen and D.D.L. Chung, "A Comparative Study of Concretes
Reinforced with Carbon, Polyethylene and Steel Fibers and Their
Improvement by Latex Addition", ACI Materials Journal, 93(2), 1996.

Y. Chen and D.D.L. Chung, "Nickel Aluminide (Ni3Al) Fabricated by
Reactive Infiltration," Journal Materials Science, 31, 1996.

Y. Chen and D.D.L. Chung, "In Situ Al/TiB Composite Obtained by Stir
Casting," Journal Materials Science, 31, 1996.

P. Yih and D.D.L. Chung, "Silicon Carbide Whisker Copper-Matrix
Composites Fabricated by Hot Pressing Copper Coated Whiskers," Journal
of Materials Science, 31, 1996.

Y. Chen and D.D.L. Chung, "Aluminum-Matrix Silicon Carbide Whisker
Composites Fabricated by Pressureless Infiltration," Journal Material
Science, 31, 1996.

X. Fu and D.D.L. Chung, "Vibration Damping Admixtures for Cement,"
Cem. Concr. Res., 26(1), 1996.

X. Fu and D.D.L. Chung, "Self-Monitoring of Fatigue Damage in Carbon
Fiber Reinforced Cement," Cem. Concr. Res., 26(1), 1996.

N. Sridhar, D.D.L. Chung, W.A. Anderson, and J. Coleman, "Effect of
Deposition Temperature on the Structural and Electrical Properties of
Laser Crystallized Hydrogenated Amorphous Silicon Films," Journal
Applied Physics, 79(3), 1996.

X. Fu and D.D.L. Chung, "Effect of Polymer Admixtures to Cement on the
Bond Strength and Electrical Contact Resistivity Between Steel Fiber
and Cement," Cem. Concr. Res., 26(2), 1996.

X. Fu and D.D.L. Chung, "Effect of Methylcellulose Admixture on the
Mechanical Properties of Cement," Cem. Concr. Res., 26(4), 1996.

P.W. Chen and D.D.L. Chung, "Low-Drying-Shrinkage Concrete Containing
Carbon Fibers," Composites: Part B, 27B, 1996.

S. W. Hudnut and D.D.L. Chung, "Enhancing the Loss Modulus of Carbon
Fiber Polymer-Matrix Composites by Addition of Particles in the
Interlaminar Region," Plastics, Rubber and Composites Processing and
Applications, 25(2), 1996.

X. Shui and D.D.L. Chung, "Piezoresistive Carbon Filament
Polymer-Matrix Composite Strain Sensor," Smart Mater. Struc., 1996.

C.A. Frysz, X. Shui, and D.D.L. Chung, "Carbon Filaments and Carbon
Black as a Conductive Additive to the Manganese Dioxide Cathode of a
Lithium Electrolytic Cell," J. Power Sources, 58(1), 1996.

C.A. Frysz, X. Shui, and D.D.L. Chung, "Use of Carbon Filaments in
Place of Carbon Black as the Current Collector of a Lithium Cell with
a Thionyl Chloride-Bromine Chloride Catholyte," J. Power Sources,
58(1), 1996.

J. Hou and D.D.L. Chung, "Corrosion Protection of Aluminum-Matrix
Composites," Materials Research Society Symp. Proc., Vol. 390
(Electronic Packaging Materials Science VIII), Eds: Robert C. Sundahl,
K-N. Tu, K.A. Jackson and P. Borgesen, 1995.

Y. Chen and D.D.L. Chung, "Nickel Aluminide (Ni3Al) Fabricated by
Reactive Infiltration," Proc. Conf. on High-Performance,
High-Temperature Materials for Rocket Engines and Aerospace
Applications, Ed: Kamleshwar Upadhya, The Minerals, Metals & Materials
Society, 1995.

Y. Chen and D.D.L. Chung, "Ductile and Strong Aluminum-Matrix Titanium
Aluminide Composite Formed In-Situ from Aluminum, Titanium Dioxide and
Sodium Hexafluoroaluminate," Proc. Conf. on High Performance
Composites, Ed: K.K. Chawla, The Minerals, Metals and Materials
Society, 1995.

N. Sridhar, D.D.L. Chung, W.A. Anderson, and J. Coleman, "Effect of
Deposition Temperature on the Photoresponse of Crystallized
Hydrogenated Amorphous Silicon Films," Materials Research Society
Symp. Proc., (Microcrystalline and Nanocrystalline Semiconductors) Ed:
L. Brus, M. Hirose, R.W. Collins, F. Kock, and C. C. Tsai, 1995.

X. Shui and D.D.L. Chung, "Nickel Coated Carbon Filaments for
Electromagnetic Interference Shielding," Ext. Abstr. Program - Bienn.
Conf. Carbon, 22, 1995.

S.W. Hudnut and D.D.L. Chung, "Use of Submicron Diameter Carbon
Filaments as a Second Filler Between Continuous Carbon Fiber Layers in
a Polymer-Matrix Composite for Enhancing the Vibrational Damping
Ability and Transverse Modulus," Ext. Abstr. Program - Bienn. Conf.
Carbon, 22, 1995.

M.S. Salib, A. Petrou, and D.D.L. Chung,  "Optomechanical Switching
Using Intercalated
Graphite," Ext. Abstr. Program - Bienn. Conf. Carbon, 22, 1995.

C.A. Frysz, X. Shui,and D.D.L. Chung, "Carbon Filaments as a Porous
Reduction Electrode," Ext. Abstr. Program - Bienn. Conf. Carbon, 22,
1995.

X. Shui, C.A. Frysz, and D.D.L. Chung, "Improving the Electrochemical
Performance of Carbon Filaments by Solvent Cleansing," Ext. Abstr.
Program - Bienn. Conf. Carbon, 22, 1995.

C.A. Frysz, X. Shui, and D.D.L. Chung, "Carbon Filaments as a
Conductive Additive in MnO2Electrodes," Ext. Abstr. Program - Bienn.
Conf. Carbon, 22, 1995.

X. Wang and D.D.L. Chung, "Carbon Fiber Polymer-Matrix Composites as
Strain and Damage Sensors," Ext. Abstr. Program - Bienn. Conf. Carbon,
22, 1995.

P-W. Chen and D.D.L. Chung, "Low-Frying-Shrinkage Concrete Containing
Carbon Fibers and Its Applications in Structure Repair," Ext. Abstr.
Program - Bienn. Conf. Carbon, 22, 1995.

P-W. Chen and D.D.L. Chung, "Carbon Fiber Reinforced Concrete as an
Intrinsically Smart Concrete for Damage Assessment During Dynamic
Loading," Ext. Abstr. Program - Bienn. Conf. Carbon, 22, 1995.

X. Shui and D.D.L. Chung, Nickel Coated Carbon Filaments for
Electromagnetic Interference Shielding," 22nd Bienn. Conf. Carbon, San
Diego, 1995.

S.W. Hudnut and D.D.L. Chung, "Use of Submicron Diameter Carbon
Filaments as a Second Filler Between Continuous Carbon Fiber Layers in
a Polymer-Matrix Composite for Enhancing the Vibrational Damping
Ability and Transverse Modulus," 22nd Bienn. Conf. Carbon, San Diego,
1995.

M.S. Salib, A. Petrou, and D.D.L. Chung, "Optomechanical Switching
Using Intercalated Graphite," 22nd Bienn. Conf. Carbon, San Diego, 1995.

C.A. Frysz, X. Shui, and D.D.L. Chung, "Carbon Filaments as a Porous
Reduction Electrode," Ext. Abstr. Program - Bienn. Conf. Carbon, San
Diego, 1995.

X. Shui, C.A. Frysz, and D.D.L. Chung, "Improving the Electrochemical
Performance of Carbon Filaments by Solvent Cleansing," 22nd Bienn.
Conf. Carbon, San Diego, 1995.

C.A. Frysz, X. Shui, and D.D.L. Chung, "Carbon Filaments as a
Conductive Additive in MnO2Electrodes," 22nd Bienn. Conf. Carbon, San
Diego, 1995.

X. Wang and D. D. L. Chung, "Carbon Fiber Polymer-Matrix Composites as
Strain and Damage Sensors," 22nd Bienn. Conf. Carbon, San Diego, 1995.

P-W. Chen and D. D. L. Chung, "Carbon Fiber Reinforced Concrete as an
Intrinsically Smart Concrete for Damage Assessment During Static and
Dynamic Loading," 22nd Bienn. Conf. Carbon, San Diego, 1995.

X. Fu and D .D. L. Chung, "Linear Correlation of Bond Strength and
Contact Electrical Resistivity Between Steel Rebar and Concrete,"
American Concrete Institute Fall Convention, Montreal, 1995.

P-W. Chen, Xuli Fu, and D. D. L. Chung, "Microstructural and
Mechanical Effects of Latex, Methylcellulose and Silica Fume on Carbon
Fiber Reinforced Cement," American Concrete Institute Fall Convention,
Montreal, 1995.

D. D. L. Chung P-W. Chen, and X. Fu, "Self-Monitoring Concrete,"
Symposium on Smart Structures and Materials, the International Society
for Optical Engineering, San Diego, 1996.

D. D. L. Chung and X. Fu, "Self-Monitoring Bond Between Steel and
Concrete," Symposium on Smart Structures and Materials, the
International Society for Optical Engineering, San Diego, 1996.

D. D. L. Chung and S.W. Hudnut, "Highly Damped Carbon-Fiber
Polymer-Matrix Composites," Symposium on Smart Structures and
Materials, the International Society for Optical Engineering, San
Diego, 1996.

D. D. L. Chung and X. Fu, "Vibration Dent," Symposium on Smart
Structures and Materials, the International Society for Optical
Engineering, San Diego, 1996.

D. D. L. Chung and X. Wang, "Self-Monitoring Carbon-Fiber
Polymer-Matrix Composites," Symposiumon Smart Structures and
Materials, the International Society for Optical Engineering, San
Diego, 1996.

D. D. L. Chung, X. Shui, and X. Wang, "Improved Composite
Piezoresistive Strain Sensors," Symposium on Smart Structures and
Materials, the International Society for Optical Engineering, San
Diego, 1996.

D. D. L. Chung, M.S. Salib, and A. Petrou, "Optomechanical Actuator in
the Form of Graphite," Symposium on Smart Structures and Materials,
the International Society for Optical Engineering, San Diego, 1996.

M. Zhu and D. D. L. Chung, "Brick Structure Improved by Using Cement
Mortar Containing Short Carbon Fibers," Spring Meeting, Materials
Research Society, San Francisco, 1996.

X. Wang and D. D. L. Chung, "Inherently Smart Laminates of Carbon
Fibers in a Polymer Matrix," Spring Meeting, Materials Research
Society, San Francisco, 1996.

X. Fu and D. D. L. Chung, "Effect of Polymer Admixtures to Cement on
the Mechanical, Electrical and Thermal Properties," Spring Meeting,
Materials Research Society, San Francisco, 1996.

D. D. L. Chung and X. Wang, "Electromechanical Testing for Materials
Characterization," Spring Meeting, Materials Research Society, San
Francisco, 1996.

W. Lu and D. D. L. Chung, "Activated Carbon Filaments of Diameter~0.1
µm," Spring Meeting, Materials Research Society, San Francisco, 1996.

D. D. L. Chung, "Materials for Electromagnetic Interference
Shielding," Spring Meeting, Materials Research Society, San Francisco,
1996.

D. D. L. Chung, "Advances and Needs for Battery Materials Research,"
Spring Meeting, Materials Research Society, San Francisco, 1996.

"Juggling Multiple Roles," Society of Women Engineers, Regional
Conference, Buffalo, 1995.

"Smart Structural Materials," Department of Materials Science and
Engineering, Tsinghua University, Beijing University of Aeronautics
and Astronautics," Beijing, .R. China, 1995; Materials Science
Institute, Zhongshan University, Guangzhou, P.R. China, 1996.

"Metal-Matrix Composites," Beijing Institute of Aeronautical
Materials, Beijing, 1995.

"Carbon Fiber Composites as Smart Structural Materials," Carbon
Materials Division, Institute of Coal Chemistry, Chinese Academy of
Sciences, Taiyuan, Shanxi, P.R. China, 1995.

"Advances in Materials Research," Department of Materials Science and
Engineering, Harbin Institute of Technology, Harbin, P.R. China, 1996;
Society for Composite Materials of Jiangxu Province, Nanjing, P.R.
China, 1996.

"Metal-Matrix Composites for Electronic Packaging," Department of
Materials Science and Engineering, Shanghai Jiao Tong University,
Shanghai, 1996.

"Metal-Matrix Composites," Shanghai Research Institute of Materials,
Shanghai, 1996.

"Smart Concrete and Steel-Concrete Interface," Department of Materials
Science and Engineering, Tongji University, Shanghai, 1996.

"Materials for Electromagnetic Interference Shielding," Symposium M on
Materials and Processes for Peripheral Microelectronic Devices, Spring
Meeting, Materials Research Society, San Francisco, 1996.

"Advances and Needs for Battery Materials Research," Symposium M on
Materials and Processes for Peripheral Microelectronic Devices, Spring
Meeting, Materials Research Society, San Francisco, 1996.

-----------------------------------------------------
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 16:13:28 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25501;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:10:37 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:10:37 -0700
Message-ID: <001b01bdad12$44a93b80$4f4fd3d0 default>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Negative Resistance Terminology
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:23:11 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"EQ3OX1.0.NE6.j3_fr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20500
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Be careful of terminology here. In common physics, resistance expresses the
ratio between current and voltage in a conductor. You use voltage to push a
current through a conductor, expressed by Ohm's law E = IR. There are many
well-known devices, primarily a glow discharge, which show negative
resistance by the above definition, for the voltage drop decreases rapidly
with increasing current, which is why you need ballasts for fluorescent
lamps, to limit the current. The reason is that as the current increases,
many more ions are created, further reducing the effective resistance, until
total ionization is produced. Glow discharges are not energy sources, with
the exception of the Correa Pulsed Abnormal Glow Discharge device, and that
is quite another phenomenon.

This negative resistance is also seen in semiconductors. And lightning
strokes.

If an effective zero resistance can be produced at room temperature in
carbon fibers, it is as shocking as the LENR phenomena.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 17:23:08 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24072;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:21:50 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:21:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: O-U, LENR Effects & WIMPS
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 00:14:23 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35a8ff60.49142290 mail-hub>
References: <002201bdacbc$8500e760$90b4bfa8 default>
In-Reply-To: <002201bdacbc$8500e760$90b4bfa8 default>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"rdpgT3.0.2u5.S60gr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20501
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Sat, 11 Jul 1998 05:10:26 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

>To: Vortex
>
>Since the Weakly Interacting Massive Particles,
>WIMPs (0nX)that make up 99% of the mass of the Universe are everywhere, they
>Might participate
>in reactions such as the Water Carbon Arc O-U
>effect and explain the production of Iron in
>the arc if there is Potassium (or such)in the water:
>
>19K39 + 0n18 ---> 26Fe57 + 7 Beta (minus')

Frederick, if they can induce reactions like this, why are they
*weakly* interacting, and why are there any of them still around?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 18:10:40 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00416;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:08:08 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:08:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 01:00:40 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35ab09cc.51810630 mail-hub>
References: <199807101040.GAA22125 mail.enter.net> <35A76A05.6203@skylink.net>
In-Reply-To: <35A76A05.6203 skylink.net>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"my0KR3.0.N6.sn0gr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20502
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Sat, 11 Jul 1998 06:35:01 -0700, Robert Stirniman wrote:
[snip]
>> On this point, Stratton's Electromagnetic Theory text says:
>> "In the expansion of an electromagnetic field, only those terms that
>> vanish at infinity as 1/r give rise to radiation [meaning a net
>> irreversible transport of energy away from the source]. The terms in
>> 1/r^2 and 1/r^3 account for energy stored in the field, which
>> periodically flows out from the source and returns to it, without
>> ever being lost from the system."  (p. 437)

Simple association says to me that this sounds a lot like the much
sort after ZPF.
(Though I suspect Hal would disagree :).
[snip]
>In order to try to avoid additional confusion, I did not mention the 
>electrostatic part of Jefimenko's example problem. Perhaps I made a 
>mistake in doing this. But it seems to me that it does not enter into 
>the source equations for the longitudinal H wave, which only depends 
>on the AC current in the loop. The same longitudinal H wave solution 
>should result from a conventional current loop dipole antenna, rather 
>than Jefimenko's oscillating charged ring. Do you agree? If so, than 
>I think the static radial E field of Jefimenko's example is irrelevant 
>to the longitudinal H field propagation problem.
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 18:51:16 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA05462;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:48:35 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:48:35 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:48:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Negative resistance graph for Tunnel Diode
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980711183520.8908A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"ji1uj1.0.FL1.nN1gr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20503
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

 
   A  typical current vs. voltage characteristic for a tunnel diode
 is sketched below. When the forward bias potential  exceeds  about
 30  mV,  increasing  the  voltage  causes the current to decrease,
 resulting in a negative resistance characteristic.
 
    ---------|-----.<------ ( negative
    ^        |     |         resistance
    |        |   . | .         region )  ______
    |        |     |                           |
    |        |     |                           |
             |     |    .                      |
   Ip        |  .  |                           |
             |     |                           |
    |        |     |          .                |                 .
    |        | .   |                           |
    |    |   |     |                  .        v           .
    |   _v___|_____|___________________________._________________
    |        |.    |                           |
    v________|_____|___________________________|_________________
         ^  .      |                           |
         |       30 mv                      360 mv
        Iv     (Peak point)                (Valley point)
           .
 
   The bidirectional conduction  of  the  device  is  a  result  of
 heavily  doped  P  and  N regions with a very narrow junction. The
 Fermi level lies within the conduction band for  the  N  side  and
 within the valence band for the P side.
 
 {Source: ARRL Radio Amateur's Handbook , 1985 ed. p 4-14}
 
 Jim O.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 18:58:58 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07273;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:56:28 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:56:28 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <005201bdad36$b8b8cd00$ecb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>, <rl_brodzinski@pnl.gov>
Subject: Re: O-U, LENR Effects & WIMPS
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:45:10 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"_eNYK.0.Rn1.8V1gr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20504
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Saturday, July 11, 1998 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: O-U, LENR Effects & WIMPS

Robin  van Spaandonk wrote:


>On Sat, 11 Jul 1998 05:10:26 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>
>>To: Vortex
>>
>>Since the Weakly Interacting Massive Particles,
>>WIMPs (0nX)that make up 99% of the mass of the Universe are everywhere,
they
>>Might participate
>>in reactions such as the Water Carbon Arc O-U
>>effect and explain the production of Iron in
>>the arc if there is Potassium (or such)in the water:
>>
>>19K39 + 0n18 ---> 26Fe57 + 7 Beta (minus')
>
>Frederick, if they can induce reactions like this, why are they
>*weakly* interacting, and why are there any of them still around?

Glad you asked.   :-)

The consensus is that the WIMPs are responsible
for 99% of the mass of the Universe.

Figuring a volume of 1.2E79 Meters^3 with 1%
as stars/planets (2E54 Kg) = 1.67E-25 Kg/m^3.
This times 99 ~= 1.67E-23 Kg of WIMPs/m^3 or
about one proton mass/cm^3.

If some of these are tri-neutrons (0n3) and
react with the Hydrogen on the Sun:

1H1 + 0n3 ---> 1H4 (beta minus plus a neutrino)
--->2He4  this would explain the "Missing Neutrinos".  :-)

I.O.W. The Sun is "Burning" mostly on the outside!  :-)

If you look at the thermal neutron capture
cross-sections for the LENR materials, Potassium, and Tungsten, you might
conclude that Nature will "burn" nuclear wastes a lot better in open ponds
that at the underground WIPP site or Yucca Mountain.  :-)

Figure 5 Billion years of oceans scrubbing WIMPs and having them react with
Cl, Na, K, etc., and transmuting them to heavier stable elements.

Enjoy your Sunday, Robin.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

Regards,   Frederick

>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 19:10:47 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09344;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:06:37 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:06:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: HLafonte aol.com
Message-ID: <64c3985f.35a81851 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:58:40 EDT
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Test delete
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64
Resent-Message-ID: <"0ce0N3.0.wH2.ie1gr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20505
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Test delete

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 19:27:54 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA18197;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:24:11 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:24:11 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980711212535.00877ae0 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:25:35 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
In-Reply-To: <199807111313_MC2-52C9-2D1E compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"qTqED2.0.zR4.Av1gr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20507
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 01:09 PM 7/11/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Wharton concludes:
>
>     Is there anyone here who believes that 5 cc's of fully loaded palladium
>     has the energy a 65 watt light bulb puts out in 10 seconds.  You have to
>     be a real true believer to believe that.
>
>Actually, it is common knowledge that palladium stores roughly this much
>energy.

It looks like quite a bit more than 650 joules.  The 5 cc's of Pd is 60
grams of Pd which is .56 moles.  At a modest loading of 0.7 H/Pd, that
gives us .39 moles of H.  Two moles of H are required to make a mole of H2O
which yields about 285,000 joules upon formation.  Thus the .39 moles of H
that came from the 5cc of Pd will yield about 55,000 joules if burned in
oxygen.

That much energy would light a 65 watt bulb for about 14 minutes.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 19:29:00 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17849;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:23:54 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:23:54 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980711212331.008933e0 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:23:31 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: apology
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"upeKB3.0.lM4.vu1gr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20506
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jed, I would like to apologize publically for calling you Frothwell.  It
was rather childish of me.

I would like to take this opportunity to praise the effort you have
expended on behalf of cold fusion.  You certainly rank among the top
authorities in the  field.

You and I don't always see eye-to-eye on the means but we both seek the
same end.

I hope we eventually succeed.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 19:47:32 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14483;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:44:41 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:44:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: O-U, LENR Effects & WIMPS
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 02:37:12 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35b11a52.56042385 mail-hub>
References: <005201bdad36$b8b8cd00$ecb4bfa8 default>
In-Reply-To: <005201bdad36$b8b8cd00$ecb4bfa8 default>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"cwgz3.0.9Y3.MC2gr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20508
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:45:10 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>If some of these are tri-neutrons (0n3) and
>react with the Hydrogen on the Sun:
>
>1H1 + 0n3 ---> 1H4 (beta minus plus a neutrino)
>--->2He4  this would explain the "Missing Neutrinos".  :-)
>
>I.O.W. The Sun is "Burning" mostly on the outside!  :-)
>
>If you look at the thermal neutron capture
>cross-sections for the LENR materials, Potassium, and Tungsten, you might
>conclude that Nature will "burn" nuclear wastes a lot better in open ponds
>that at the underground WIPP site or Yucca Mountain.  :-)
>
>Figure 5 Billion years of oceans scrubbing WIMPs and having them react with
>Cl, Na, K, etc., and transmuting them to heavier stable elements.

Ok, so you seem to be implying, that they are indeed weakly
interacting, and that it takes a long time on average, for any
particular WIMP to react. So how does this then explain the relatively
large power densities purportedly achieved in some CF reactions?
Is it possible there are certain conditions under which the WIMPs can
be induced to react more rapidly (and where are all the gammas)?
(Also, it seems to me they would be more likely to come across H and O
in water, than the salts).
H + n3 -> He4 (eventually, as you already pointed out), which would
bubble out, and O16 +n3 -> O19 -> F19 (stable, 100%) + b-, or perhaps:
O16 +n3 -> He4 + C15 + 7 MeV followed by
C15 -> N15 (stable, .36%)+ b- + 9.8 MeV. 
These reactions could also take place in the atmosphere.

>
>Enjoy your Sunday, Robin.  :-)

You too.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 19:53:58 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16161;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:51:46 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:51:46 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980711214529.0087a100 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:45:29 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Negative Resistance Terminology
In-Reply-To: <001b01bdad12$44a93b80$4f4fd3d0 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Bvz1C2.0.Qy3.0J2gr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20509
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 05:23 PM 7/11/98 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote:

>Be careful of terminology here. In common physics, resistance expresses the
>ratio between current and voltage in a conductor. You use voltage to push a
>current through a conductor, expressed by Ohm's law E = IR. There are many
>well-known devices, primarily a glow discharge, which show negative
>resistance by the above definition...

Actually, Mike, according to Ohm's law the resistance of a glow discharge
is always positive.  It's just that there is a region in which the _slope_
of the V vs I curve goes negative.  The actual values of R don't go
negative...just the slope.  There is always a positive voltage drop across
a glow/arc discharge...at least ordinary ones...<g>


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 20:16:11 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA19989;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:13:19 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:13:19 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:01:19 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807112305_MC2-52D0-A7D8 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"Jf_qT2.0.Fu4.Cd2gr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20510
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Scott Little writes:

     It looks like quite a bit more than 650 joules.  The 5 cc's of Pd is 60
     grams of Pd which is .56 moles.  At a modest loading of 0.7 H/Pd, that
     gives us .39 moles of H . . . [making] H2O which yields about 285,000
     joules upon formation. Thus the .39 moles of H that came from the 5cc of
     Pd will yield about 55,000 joules if burned in oxygen.

The numbers have gotten mixed up here. Wharton thought the Pons-Fleischmann
cathode was 5 cc, but actually it is 0.039 cc, or 0.0044 moles. That volume
holds only ~650 joules according to Hagelstein. This agrees closely with
Little's 55,000 joules from burning.

I do not understand where the two numbers come from here: 285,000 heat of
formation versus 55,000 from burning. Is the former heat of formation of D2?
Wouldn't you get both from the outgassing? In any case, even if you did, it
would make no difference in the context of this experiment. The cathode
produced megajoules over the entire run, before, during and after the boil-off
event.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 20:30:02 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29046;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:23:12 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:23:12 -0700
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Entropy?
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 02:46:28 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35b2228b.58147826 mail-hub>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"glqvB1.0.l57.Vm2gr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20511
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Something has been bothering me.
AFAIK, one way of expressing the concept of entropy, is to say that
every time we use energy it "degrades", which in turn can be seen as
converting to a longer wavelength. Yet, if we were to carry this
process of degradation to the point where it "degraded" to radio
waves, then we could theoretically convert them back into "high-grade"
energy, at quite a high efficiency. Now what does this say about our
entropy calculations?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 11 22:19:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06035;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:09:09 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:09:09 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <009501bdad50$6650c440$ecb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: O-U, LENR Effects & WIMPS
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:48:19 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"NeKx7.0.CU1.pJ4gr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20512
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Saturday, July 11, 1998 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: O-U, LENR Effects & WIMPS

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:


>On Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:45:10 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>[snip]
>>If some of these are tri-neutrons (0n3) and
>>react with the Hydrogen on the Sun:
>>
>>1H1 + 0n3 ---> 1H4 (beta minus plus a neutrino)
>>--->2He4  this would explain the "Missing Neutrinos".  :-)
>>
>>I.O.W. The Sun is "Burning" mostly on the outside!  :-)
>>
>>If you look at the thermal neutron capture
>>cross-sections for the LENR materials, Potassium, and Tungsten, you might
>>conclude that Nature will "burn" nuclear wastes a lot better in open ponds
>>that at the underground WIPP site or Yucca Mountain.  :-)
>>
>>Figure 5 Billion years of oceans scrubbing WIMPs and having them react
with
>>Cl, Na, K, etc., and transmuting them to heavier stable elements.
>
>Ok, so you seem to be implying, that they are indeed weakly
>interacting, and that it takes a long time on average, for any
>particular WIMP to react. So how does this then explain the relatively
>large power densities purportedly achieved in some CF reactions?

If: a Quasi-neutron (0qn1) causes a Pd atom
to fission:

0qn1 + 46Pd106 ---> 2 22Ti48 + He4 + (0n6) + E

then the (0n6) can add to another Pd:

46Pd106 + 0n6 ---> 49In112 + 3 beta minus' + E

Since the "excess neutrons" in any atom is
A - 2Z for Pd 106 - 92 = 14, there is a good chance of getting an 0n6 or
such that in the
crowded lattice could do the things being claimed, ie., HEAT AND
TRANSMUTATIONS even to
heavier elements.

>Is it possible there are certain conditions under which the WIMPs can
>be induced to react more rapidly (and where are all the gammas)?

I would think that excited nuclei might do this.
There doesn't necessarily have to be gammas emitted, But the neutrinos
coming off with the beta decay could carry off a lot of undetected energy.
>(Also, it seems to me they would be more likely to come across H and O
>in water, than the salts).
>H + n3 -> He4 (eventually, as you already pointed out), which would
>bubble out, and O16 +n3 -> O19 -> F19 (stable, 100%) + b-, or perhaps:
>O16 +n3 -> He4 + C15 + 7 MeV followed by
>C15 -> N15 (stable, .36%)+ b- + 9.8 MeV.
>These reactions could also take place in the atmosphere.

Work out the cross-sections and take your pick.
We do have a bit of Helium in our atmosphere,don't we? Are you sure that the
Neutrino detectors are seeing just neutrinos, or are they seeing some WIMP
reactions too?   :-)

Regards,   Frederick

>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 00:00:47 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA12747;
	Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:54:17 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:54:17 -0700
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: O-U, LENR Effects & WIMPS
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 06:54:20 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35ac5d40.73181106 mail-hub>
References: <009501bdad50$6650c440$ecb4bfa8 default>
In-Reply-To: <009501bdad50$6650c440$ecb4bfa8 default>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"L6C-a.0.w63.Os5gr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20513
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:48:19 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>Work out the cross-sections and take your pick.
>We do have a bit of Helium in our atmosphere,don't we? Are you sure that the
>Neutrino detectors are seeing just neutrinos, or are they seeing some WIMP
>reactions too?   :-)
[snip]
I'm still having problems understanding why WIMPs should be so much
less reactive than single neutrons?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 06:24:33 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA07814;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 06:21:36 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 06:21:36 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980712081515.0088d490 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:15:15 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
In-Reply-To: <199807112305_MC2-52D0-A7D8 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"3jt4b.0.tv1.QXBgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20514
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 11:01 PM 7/11/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>I do not understand where the two numbers come from here: 285,000 heat of
>formation versus 55,000 from burning. Is the former heat of formation of D2?
>Wouldn't you get both from the outgassing?

285,000 joules is the heat of formation of an entire mole of H2O, when
formed from H2 and O2 (burning hydrogen) and when the resulting H2O is
condensed to a liquid.

The 55,000 joules is just how much you'd get from burning the H that would
absorb easily into 5cc of Pd.

There is a heat of formation for PdH2 that I was ignoring.  It's 37,000
joules/mole.  If we consider the entire trip from inside the Pd to outside
the Pd and reacted with oxygen, we'd have to count that too.  Since there's
about .56 moles of PdH2 in our confused example, it would take about 21,000
joules to dissocate that to free the hydrogen...then we could burn it to
collect 55,000 joules making the net energy collection only 34,000 joules.

There is another point I've often wondered about but never clearly
understood.  The heat of formation of H2 from H + H is large...about
432,000 joule mole.  In order for PdH2 to form, I think H2 adsorbs onto the
Pd surface and dissociates into separate H atoms before entering the Pd
lattice.  Since the observed heat of formation of PdH2 is an exothermic
37,000 joules/mole, does that mean that there's really 469,000 joules
released per mole of PdH2 formed but that 432,000 of those is expended in
dissociating the H2 molecules before they enter the Pd, leaving a net (the
observed heat of formation) of 37,000 joules/mole?

If so, it must be the same situation for the burning of H2 and O2, the
formation of a mole of H2O from separate H and O atoms must produce 285,000
joules PLUS the 432,000 joules needed to dissociate a mole of H2 PLUS half
the energy needed to dissoc a mole of O2, no?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 07:28:02 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA12131;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 07:26:49 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 07:26:49 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A8C3A9.7A6D skylink.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 07:09:45 -0700
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
References: <3.0.32.19980711104925.007ee750 cnct.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"pQjcS3.0.Oz2.bUCgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20515
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Keith Nagel wrote:
> The upshot of this is that a standing wave condition occurs
> around the antenna. I know in quantum optics this is referred
> to as the "storage field", but I'm a rf engineer so to
> me it's just the reactive field of the antenna.

Keith. Jefimenko's solution for the longitudinal component
is a travelling wave, NOT a standing wave. Maybe he made
a mistake in the math, but not likely. Not at all likely.

> If you want more info, I'll email you the post I did to
> vortex earlier this year concerning the drum experiments.

Please do.

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 08:05:33 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16868;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:01:41 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:01:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: BriggsRO aol.com
Message-ID: <b0fa64a4.35a8cdc7 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 10:52:54 EDT
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 170
Resent-Message-ID: <"nPXad.0.T74.J_Cgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20517
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Keith Nagel,

Please include me for an e-mail copy of your drum experiment report.  Thanks,

Bob Briggs

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 08:03:20 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA30704;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 07:59:18 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 07:59:18 -0700
Message-Id: <199807121459.KAA17037 mail.enter.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <chronos mailman.enter.net>
From: "Robert G. Flower" <chronos mail.enter.net>
Organization: Applied Science Associates
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Keith Nagel <knagel@cnct.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:32:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Reply-to: chronos enter.net
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <3.0.32.19980711104925.007ee750 cnct.com>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52)
Resent-Message-ID: <"3SLly.0.bV7.6zCgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20518
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 11 Jul 98 at 10:49, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: 

> Date:          Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:49:29 -0400
> From:          Keith Nagel <knagel cnct.com>

> In the near field, you can't neglect the fact that the
> antenna has length and that the energy radiating from the
> each point on it is not going to arrive at the same time.
> Imagine the case where you have two point sources seperated
> by a distance, and you're somewhere in between. Plot the
> fields, and you'll see what I mean. 

Agreed.

> Actually, you've already done the calculations, the results are
> those wacky terms you've been discussing.

Jefimenko discards the 1/r^3 terms at the beginning.  He ends up with
a solution containing terms in 1/r^2 and 1/r.  So he has a few wacky
terms but NOT the full-field solution. Maybe he's not wacky enough ?



> The upshot of this is that a standing wave condition occurs around
> the antenna. I know in quantum optics this is referred to as the
> "storage field", but I'm a rf engineer so to me it's just the
> reactive field of the antenna. 

Right -- just different names for the same physical thing.


> To say that energy is stored there is accurate but misleading
> perhaps, as whats happening is the interfering travelling waves are
> creating the standing wave pattern. 

No, I think energy really is "stored" in the reactive field -- more
accurately, it sloshes back-and-forth between reactive field and
source.  You get this from the instantaneous Poynting vector computed
from the FULL-FIELD solution -- a typical exercise in EM texts.  This
circulating energy builds up during the turn-on transient -- like
kinetic energy building up in a flywheel.  During turn-off
transient, some of this energy flows back into source, the rest
flies away into space.


> As Flowers correctly
> points out, one must consider the transient case. 

Transients occur not just when the AC source is turned on and off,
but any time it is "modulated" in a way that transmits information.
It is not the modulation itself, but the CHANGE IN MODULATION, that
constitutes the information.  So transient behavior is occurring
whenever data is transmitted.  


> Look at material on RF cavities, its easy to generate
> longitudinal magnetic modes. 

Agreed. TE mode in a cavity has non-zero longitudinal H component,
and TM mode has non-zero longitudinal E, all per orthodox theory.

> A few people (myself included) have considered this in light of
> the "new" physics and tried to make velocity measurements. I used a
> mercury switch interrupter with a signal source, using 55 gal drums
> as cavity elements. And, indeed the signals propagated at c. I've
> done experiments with shock excited antennas, same thing. I want
> this to work as much as you, having said that I'll state that I've
> yet to see conclusive evidence of velocities exceeding c with the
> longitudinal modes you mentioned. 

Conventional theory indicates that signal velocity in a cavity will 
be c or less, while phase velocity u can exceed c.  Very hard to 
measure u directly.  HOWEVER, people using quantum effects claim 
faster-than-c signalling.  Per URL's posted to Vortex earlier:

http://www.uni-koeln.de/~abb11/ 

http://info.tuwien.ac.at/cms/wh/


> If you want more info, I'll email you the post I did to
> vortex earlier this year concerning the drum experiments.
> And if you do these experiments yourself, watch out
> for surface waves generated by the fast switching, a
> nasty source of artifact (or is it the baby, eh???)

Neat. I read about some of that.  Are these surface waves present 
only during the switch-on and switch-off transients?



Best regards,

Bob Flower

=============================================
Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates
> Scientific Software & Instrumentation <
> Quality Control Engineering <
=============================================

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 08:05:37 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA30566;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 07:58:35 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 07:58:35 -0700
Message-Id: <199807121458.KAA16926 mail.enter.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <chronos mailman.enter.net>
From: "Robert G. Flower" <chronos mail.enter.net>
Organization: Applied Science Associates
To: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:32:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Reply-to: chronos enter.net
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <35A76A05.6203 skylink.net>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52)
Resent-Message-ID: <"Rs2QL3.0.TT7.QyCgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20516
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 11 Jul 98 at 6:35, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: 

> Date:          Sat, 11 Jul 1998 06:35:01 -0700
> From:          Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
> To:            vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject:       Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna

> Robert G. Flower wrote:
> > This is where the orthodox theory gets off the bus. The conventional
> > definition of "far field" or "radiation field" is that part of the
> > solution which falls off as 1/r.
> 
> Hi Robert. Thanks for the response. You already know the problem very 
> well. I don't have the Stratton text, and don't know what he has to say 
> about the 1/r^2 component of the dipole field, but other than Jefimenko, 
> most other texts only discuss the 1/r radiation field. 


A good text will first give the FULL-FIELD solution, which is not an
approximation, and has terms in 1/r, 1/r^2, and 1/r^3, and others.
But getting numerical results out of the full-field solution is
difficult or impossible, so people quickly introduce various
approximations, such as:

- far-field approximation = "radiation field" = contains only terms 
in 1/r

- near-field approximation = contains only terms in 1/r^3 and 
sometimes 1/r^2

and various HYBRID schemes that mix up portions of these.  For
instance, Jefimenko discards the 1/r^3 terms at the beginning -- by
means of his statement that "at large distances from the ring, the
ring constitutes a point charge" (middle of p. 517).

The problem with approximations is that it is sometimes unclear
exactly which terms they are throwing out. 

The decision about whether an approximation is justified depends on
the waveform, frequency, presence of transients, boundary conditions,
etc. (See * below.)  The full-field solution is the best choice,
especially if you don't know what is really going on. 




> > The conventional answer would be that Jefimenko's terms that
> > decrease as 1/r^2 are not part of the radiation field, but must be
> > ignored as "negligible" in comparison with the 1/r terms.
> 
> The 1/r^2 component of Jefimenko's solution is clearly a travelling 
> wave, and hence by definition a radiation field rather than a near 
> field. 

The "radiation field" is conventionally defined to be the components
which fall off as 1/r.  So Jefimenko's 1/r^2 components are not
"radiation" as the term is usually used.

The logic for calling the 1/r components "radiation" is that the
contribution they make to the Poynting vector, summed over one or
more full cycles of the source frequency, adds up to a net
irreversible flow of energy away from the source.  (This supports
Larry Wharton's recent message that EM radiation is an irreversible
process.)

Whereas the contributions of the 1/r^2 and 1/r^3 terms to Poynting's
vector sum to ZERO over a full cycle.  Ie, they represent a cyclic
sloshing back-and-forth of energy between the field and the source.
Keith Nagel called this the "standing wave" or "reactive field" in
antenna engineering, and the "storage field" in quantum optics.  It
is exactly analogous to "reactive power" in an AC circuit.



> Further it is related to the source current by a factor of 
> 1/c, while the 1/r field is related to the source current by 1/c^2. 
> It is maybe not so neglible as conventionally suggested. 

Yes but since c is a constant, this merely establishes the distance
to the zone where 1/r^2 becomes much smaller than 1/r. (See *
above.)


> If the wave is instaneous action at a distance -- it might be best
> veiwed as a near field. But then there would be other serious
> problems with conventional thinking.  

Jefimenko's formulas for the 1/r^2 component indicate it is not
instantaneous, but retarded by the conventional (t - r/c) factor.  




> > On this point, Stratton's Electromagnetic Theory text says:
> > "In the expansion of an electromagnetic field, only those terms that
> > vanish at infinity as 1/r give rise to radiation [meaning a net
> > irreversible transport of energy away from the source]. The terms in
> > 1/r^2 and 1/r^3 account for energy stored in the field, which
> > periodically flows out from the source and returns to it, without
> > ever being lost from the system."  (p. 437)
> 
> I haven't seen the form of Stratton's solution for the 1/r^2 component, 
> but if it represents a travelling wave, as does Jefimenko's, then the
> above paragraph is not correct. In Jefimenko's solution, magnetic
> energy is propagating away from the source -- radiation which has 
> become unattached to the source.  

No, the 1/r^2 terms in Jefimenko's solution are NOT carrying a net
flow of power away from the source -- I think. To be sure, we should
compute the Poynting vector P = E x H using his formulas for E and H
-- from his solution that includes the off-axis terms (prob. 15-8.2,
page 522).  

Also, look at his section on "Magnetic Dipole Antenna" (p. 562) and 
Eq. 16-8.17 (page 564).  He discards the 1/r^2 terms in H (middle of 
p. 563). This should be re-worked with the 1/r^2 terms kept in.


> In order to try to avoid additional confusion, I did not mention the 
> electrostatic part of Jefimenko's example problem. Perhaps I made a 
> mistake in doing this. But it seems to me that it does not enter into 
> the source equations for the longitudinal H wave, which only depends 
> on the AC current in the loop. 

E and H fields are not really separate.


> The same longitudinal H wave solution 
> should result from a conventional current loop dipole antenna, rather 
> than Jefimenko's oscillating charged ring. Do you agree? 

Yes.  But the E fields would be different.  Compare eq. 16-8.15 
(p. 563) versus first eq. on p. 522

> If so, than I think the static radial E field of Jefimenko's
> example is irrelevant to the longitudinal H field propagation
> problem.

No. Jefimenko's static E field is relevant, because it is needed to
compute the Poynting vector E x H, which tracks the flow of energy, 
at least in conventional theory. 



> > At any point slightly off the z-azis, E is not parallel to H, and
> > there will be a fluctuating Poynting power flow that averages to
> > zero.
> 
> Assuming the static E field is irrelevant to the problem, the only
> E field off the axis comes from the 1/r field -- all of the energy 
> flow of this E field is accounted for in the 1/r radiation. This E 
> field can not further contribute to a Poynting vector for the 
> longitudinal H field. 

Try computing E x H using Jefimenko's formulas for E and H on page
522 -- or better yet, for the loop antenna, on pp. 563-4.


> > Here is an interesting question: All of the above (including
> > Jefimenko's analysis) applies only to the STEADY-PERIODIC conditions
> > that exist after the field pattern given by Jefimenko's solution
> > has been set up.
> 
> Yes there is a transient problem. But in my opinion it exists primarily
> in the 1/r^3 field. The radiation fields, travelling waves, are by
> nature transient in time and space, which is the reason they are able 
> to cut lose from the source. Still begging the question of whether the 
> longitudinal 1/r^2 field is actually cut lose. 
>  
> > What is happening at the "leading edge" of the propagating wavefront
> > when the AC source is FIRST turned on?  Ie, at any distance r, when
> > r is of the order tc.
> 
> I see this problem in the 1/r^3 field, but not in the travelling fields.
> What difference if the AC source is FIRST turned on, or if the source 
> current passes through zero twice each cycle? 

Before the AC source is turned on, the EM field is "quiescent" 
everywhere

Whereas, after the steady-periodic state of oscillation has settled
in, at the instant when source-current passes thru 0, the EM field
surrounding it is loaded with kinetic energy and momentum -- which
was built up during the starting transient. 


> > This is a transient situation, and energy must be flowing out from
> > the source and "inflating" or exciting the EM field -- ie,
> > establishing the field patterns.  So we are interested in
> > TRANSIENT power-flow, not the steady-state Poynting vector.
> 
> Since there is no longitudinal Poynting vector, for sure something
> esle must be happening with the 1/r^2 field. Maybe transient power
> flow to set up the field. If it is a near-field -- i.e. not a 
> propagating travelling wave, transient power flow may be the way 
> to look at it. 

I think transient power flow during switch-on explains it.


> Not only how does it get set up, also what happens
> if you interrupt the the source current. How does the energy get 
> back into the source. Instantaneously? The same problem exists
> in the 1/r^3 near field. 

It depends WHEN in the cycle you interrupt the source current. It's
possible to set up conditions (on paper at least) such that NONE of
the energy stored in Nagel's "standing wave" gets back into the
source.  It would just flow away into space.. This is the 
stopping transient. 


> > This would be a good problem to work in detail, since it has terms in
> > 1/r, 1/r^2 and 1/r^3.  Also, it corresponds to the practical case of
> > a current-driven loop antenna, which is well known.
> 
> Also a practical experiment. 

Yes but I'd scour the antenna-engineering handbooks first.



Best regards,

Bob Flower

=============================================
Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates
> Scientific Software & Instrumentation <
> Quality Control Engineering <
=============================================

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 08:14:41 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA00785;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:06:10 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:06:10 -0700
Message-ID: <000e01bdada6$1de0f3a0$6f8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:01:54 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"PV0so.0.BC.X3Dgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20519
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, July 12, 1998 7:21 AM
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death

Scott wrote:


>At 11:01 PM 7/11/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>>I do not understand where the two numbers come from here: 285,000 heat of
>>formation versus 55,000 from burning. Is the former heat of formation of
D2?
>>Wouldn't you get both from the outgassing?
>
>285,000 joules is the heat of formation of an entire mole of H2O, when
>formed from H2 and O2 (burning hydrogen) and when the resulting H2O is
>condensed to a liquid.
>
>The 55,000 joules is just how much you'd get from burning the H that would
>absorb easily into 5cc of Pd.
>
>There is a heat of formation for PdH2 that I was ignoring.  It's 37,000
>joules/mole.  If we consider the entire trip from inside the Pd to outside
>the Pd and reacted with oxygen, we'd have to count that too.  Since there's
>about .56 moles of PdH2 in our confused example, it would take about 21,000
>joules to dissocate that to free the hydrogen...then we could burn it to
>collect 55,000 joules making the net energy collection only 34,000 joules.
>
>There is another point I've often wondered about but never clearly
>understood.  The heat of formation of H2 from H + H is large...about
>432,000 joule mole.  In order for PdH2 to form, I think H2 adsorbs onto the
>Pd surface and dissociates into separate H atoms before entering the Pd
>lattice.  Since the observed heat of formation of PdH2 is an exothermic
>37,000 joules/mole, does that mean that there's really 469,000 joules
>released per mole of PdH2 formed but that 432,000 of those is expended in
>dissociating the H2 molecules before they enter the Pd, leaving a net (the
>observed heat of formation) of 37,000 joules/mole?
>
>If so, it must be the same situation for the burning of H2 and O2, the
>formation of a mole of H2O from separate H and O atoms must produce 285,000
>joules PLUS the 432,000 joules needed to dissociate a mole of H2 PLUS half
>the energy needed to dissoc a mole of O2, no?

Breaking it down to Bond Energy:

Bond      Joule/Mole          Ev/Bond

H-H        436,000             4.527

O-O        498,360             5.174

O-H        427,500             4.438

H-OH       498,000             5.170

For 2 H2 + O2 = 2 H2O

Break,  2 H-H = 2*436,000 J
         O-O  =  498,360 J
       total 1,370,000 J/2 moles

Make,  2 H-O = 885,000 J
       2 H-OH = 996,000 J
       total 1,851,000 J/2 moles

Net (1,851,000 - 1,370,00)/2 = 240,500 J/mole H2O or 57,440 cal/mole
(condensed).

I Think. :-)

Regards,   Frederick
>
>
>Scott Little
>EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
>512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX)
>little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 08:41:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20424;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:38:25 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:38:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <3a750175.35a8d67e aol.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:30:04 EDT
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Puthoff@aol.com, mjs@ap.net, halfox@slkc.uswest.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Negative resistance discovered!
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38
Resent-Message-ID: <"in5JF.0.2_4.jXDgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20521
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is very interesting.  Negative resistance could mean that the positive
resistance changes inversely with applied voltage.  ie like a tunnel diode.
This implies that the "coefficient of resistance with respect to voltage
changes" or it could be real negative resistance.  Real negative resistance
implies over unity and the tapping of ZPE...................

I dug very deeply into this area for a number of years.  I went from the
ground up based on the conservation laws (in my Book on a Disk in the 1980's)
and showed that gravitational and nuclear interactions occur in
superconductors.  Since then Potkletnov has found gravitational interactions
in superconductors.  Palladium hydride has been found to be suberconductive by
Cenelli.  
.............................................................................
The bottom my from theory was:

1.  Spin a superconductor to induce a gravito magentic field.
2.   Squeeze a superconductor to induce nuclear change.
3.  Vibrate a superconductor to produce energy.

 <A HREF="http://www.padrak.com/~ine/NEN_5_9_7.html">Letter From Frank
Znidarsic:  Znidarsic Tells...</A> 

In my opinion the negative resistance thing is no joke and could be the real
thing.
We should forget the magnet motors and focus our attention here.  

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 08:39:16 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05881;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:33:46 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:33:46 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980712114351.007fa4b8 cnct.com>
X-Sender: knagel cnct.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:43:55 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel cnct.com>
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Uuv2O2.0.pR1.QTDgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20520
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 07:09 AM 7/12/98 -0700, R. Stirniman wrote:
>Keith. Jefimenko's solution for the longitudinal component
>is a travelling wave, NOT a standing wave. Maybe he made
>a mistake in the math, but not likely. Not at all likely.

Well, I think R. Flowers pretty much summed up
the orthodox explanation of these fields. But like you I was intrigued
by the notion of a longitudinal field component. So here's
some suggestions from my experience doing these types of
experiments.

Steady state conditions are very misleading. Most radar
cavity circuits show "superluminal" effects, that is
to say the wavelength can be made much longer than the
frequency and speed C would seem to allow. What is
necessary is to shock excite the radiating system
(in this case the loop dipole) and look at propagation
delay away from the source. NOT phase delay. Mercury
wetted reed switches are subnanosecond capable, and
from your theory there should not be any amplitude 
dependency so the 50-100 volts or so you can switch
with these should be sufficient. Now, with a two
channel scope, using equal lengths of coaxial cable,
situate two small field sensing probes at unequal
distances from the source. Use as the trigger either
the signal from the near probe, or much better a
sample of the current flowing in the antenna after the
switch closes (requiring a three channel scope, but
now you can move the sensors all over the place and
keep a uniform trigger, even if the sensor output
falls to zero).

In the near field, what you'll see is the ordinary
light speed delay of the leading edge of the transient.
Looking at both signals, you will see over the course
of several cycles that the phase of the waves comes
into agreement (at least to the degree possible
due to the strong 1/r component). By near field I mean
in the 1/r^2 region, I consider the far field to be that
where the only term that's negligable is the 1/r field.
Your point is well taken that the higher order fields
extend out from the antenna as well, in fact that would
be the major hurdle to overcome to really nail this down,
seperating the tiny 1/r^2 component from the 1/r TEM wave
when you're far away. Here's where the design of the
field sensing probes is critical (and I just handwaved
that one a paragraph back...)

>
>> If you want more info, I'll email you the post I did to
>> vortex earlier this year concerning the drum experiments.
>
>Please do.

I'll post it again, as there seems to be interest.

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 08:45:01 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07601;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:40:54 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:40:54 -0700
Message-Id: <35A615F1.F1E9B126 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:24:01 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Tesla's legacy continues to electrify engineers
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"2NHRG.0.cs1.5aDgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20522
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>From today EE Times:

http://www.eet.com/news/98/1016news/tesla.html

Please somebody forward it to Freeeng and other lists if it absent there.

(the web page is quite long and contains links,  not wish to copy here to save the bandwidth and disk space).

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 08:55:34 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23282;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:52:39 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:52:39 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <002f01bdadab$8aec5980$6f8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Negative resistance discovered!
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:41:25 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"2aNRe2.0.hh5.6lDgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20523
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com <FZNIDARSIC@aol.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; Puthoff@aol.com
<Puthoff aol.com>; mjs@ap.net <mjs@ap.net>; halfox@slkc.uswest.net
<halfox slkc.uswest.net>
Date: Sunday, July 12, 1998 9:36 AM
Subject: Negative resistance discovered!

Frank Z. wrote:


>This is very interesting.  Negative resistance could mean that the positive
>resistance changes inversely with applied voltage.  ie like a tunnel diode.
>This implies that the "coefficient of resistance with respect to voltage
>changes" or it could be real negative resistance.  Real negative resistance
>implies over unity and the tapping of ZPE...................

Or it simply means that the junction is acting
like any pyroelectric or themoelectric device and putting out a
voltage/current.
Hook an ohmmeter to a thermocouple and get negative resistance!  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

>
>I dug very deeply into this area for a number of years.  I went from the
>ground up based on the conservation laws (in my Book on a Disk in the
1980's)
>and showed that gravitational and nuclear interactions occur in
>superconductors.  Since then Potkletnov has found gravitational
interactions
>in superconductors.  Palladium hydride has been found to be suberconductive
by
>Cenelli.
>...........................................................................
..
>The bottom my from theory was:
>
>1.  Spin a superconductor to induce a gravito magentic field.
>2.   Squeeze a superconductor to induce nuclear change.
>3.  Vibrate a superconductor to produce energy.
>
> <A HREF="http://www.padrak.com/~ine/NEN_5_9_7.html">Letter From Frank
>Znidarsic:  Znidarsic Tells...</A>
>
>In my opinion the negative resistance thing is no joke and could be the
real
>thing.
>We should forget the magnet motors and focus our attention here.
>
>Frank Znidarsic
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 09:04:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA24775;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:00:02 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:00:02 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980712120227.008046c0 cnct.com>
X-Sender: knagel cnct.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:02:30 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel cnct.com>
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"KcYsk.0.z26._rDgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20524
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:32 AM 7/12/98 -0500, R Flowers wrote:

>> K Nagel wrote:
>> To say that energy is stored there is accurate but misleading
>> perhaps, as whats happening is the interfering travelling waves are
>> creating the standing wave pattern. 
>
>No, I think energy really is "stored" in the reactive field -- more
>accurately, it sloshes back-and-forth between reactive field and
>source.  You get this from the instantaneous Poynting vector computed
>from the FULL-FIELD solution -- a typical exercise in EM texts.  This
>circulating energy builds up during the turn-on transient -- like
>kinetic energy building up in a flywheel.  During turn-off
>transient, some of this energy flows back into source, the rest
>flies away into space.

Yes, I know what your driving at. This is one of the most
oddly unintuitive areas of E&M to me. It's easy for me to conceptualize
a physical cavity which stores energy. Much harder to imagine
that the energy itself can create a condition of storage in
an unbounded space. But it does. I've seen it and measured it,
and in fact a few months back I was writing to R. Stirniman
about a weird little tranmission line circuit I made that demonstrated
this effect. Basically, you could create a zone inside of 
transmission line with a standing wave, where no energy
travelled outside the zone to the ends of the cable. Imagine
two directional couplers opposed to each other, 1/2 a wavelength
apart and you basically have it.

>Conventional theory indicates that signal velocity in a cavity will 
>be c or less, while phase velocity u can exceed c.  Very hard to 
>measure u directly.  HOWEVER, people using quantum effects claim 
>faster-than-c signalling.  Per URL's posted to Vortex earlier:
>
>http://www.uni-koeln.de/~abb11/ 
>
>http://info.tuwien.ac.at/cms/wh/
>
>Neat. I read about some of that.  Are these surface waves present 
>only during the switch-on and switch-off transients?
>

They are generated on the surfaces of metal
(like the outer shield of coaxial cable) when an electromagnetic
shock wave hits it. What makes this a source of artifact is
that the damn waves move at speed c on the outside of the cable.
The signal from a sensing antenna, travelling inside the cable,
moves at ~70% c. And there's gonna be leakage. See where this
is going? 

So one ends up using aircore coax. You still can't really
trust the signal more into the wave, but that leading
edge stuff will be clean.

I'm going to post the drum thing again, as there appears to
be some interest.

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 09:12:03 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13100;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:05:53 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:05:53 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980712121559.00891648 cnct.com>
X-Sender: knagel cnct.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:16:03 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel cnct.com>
Subject: Longitudinal wave Drum test.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"JIng02.0.aC3.WxDgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20525
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Here's the original post, at the time people were
discussing a set of cavity experiments that purported
to show faster than light effects. That's Ishii.
The thread never did resume, although someone
told me copies of the article were distributed
to other vorts and it would pick up after some
cogitation. Well, I'm willing to start again...

K.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Nagel writes   1/8/98

Shortly after reading Ishii's article in
Microwaves and RF, I had occasion to visit
Wisconsin for a cousins wedding. As an uncle of mine
is a prof. in the University of Wis. system,
he was able to arrange a meeting for me. Unfortunately, the
man was not what I would call congenial; I had a terrible cold
as well, but we muddled through the meeting.

Basically, his experiments revolve about some studies done with
microwave plumbing launching TE or TM type waves into free space,
he attempts to measure the group velocity with a diode type detector.

As everyone knows, it's no trick to get any relation of wavelength
to frequency one desires in such cavities. This is by no means FTL.
At the time, I suggested to him that in order to really nail the effect
down he was going to have to measure the actual waves, and not the
envelope that the diode was detecting. Towards this end, I suggested
using 55gal cans as waveguide tubing, which can be excited to lowest
order TE modes at about 300Mhz, measurable with a decent scope. Same
circuit, only !larger! so you can measure it accurately.

I doubt he took this advice, but having a mess of cans around at
the time and some free time, I put such a circuit together. It was
quite amusing actually, like playing with those huge tinker toys
they used to sell. BTW, the difficult part was getting the cans
together with good electrical contact. They were coated with some
sort of super tough enamel to resist the toxic crap that would
have been stored in them. 

Anyway, I measured the actual group velocity both inside the
waveguide ( where the LM wave was several times the speed of C )
and outside. Neither showed anomaly. The detector was a quarter
wave antenna using a CT1 or CT2 current probe to measure base
current. A pair of these led to the scope, which measured
the time difference between the arrival of the first half cycle.
The leading half cycle propagated as a TEM wave, which over the
span of the next few cycles would "ring up" to the standing wave
condition; after which the LM wave would be evident. 

It's like filling a bathtub with water folks. Watch it sometime;
it doesn't happen all at once. :^)

I'll stress here that there may still be something to this; just
that the initial work I did stuck to standard theory. Still plenty
of room to experiment here. I'll leave it to you to figure out my
reasons; suffice it to say there is nothing out of the ordinary
in generating longitudinal electric OR magnetic waves in cavities.
Any good RF textbook will show you this. What this actually means
is another matter. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------

KPN


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 09:22:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15023;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:14:03 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:14:03 -0700
Message-Id: <35A6FC61.C4C1929E verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:47:13 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
References: <199807101040.GAA22125 mail.enter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"6oxBC2.0.fg3.B3Egr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20526
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi,

I have a tri-poles configuration obtained simply on resonating coil as:
            <-d-> diameter of the coil 

           +  N  + 
            |   |
            |   |
            |   |     L 
            |   |       
            |   |    
  <===  - S |   | S -  ===> (E,H in same direction)              
            |   |    
            |   |       
            |   |
            |   |
            |   |
          +   N  +

As the tri-pole oscillate, not static symbols N,S,-,+ shows polarity for an instant, (N,S are magnetic,-,+ are electric), L is the distance between poles and it L << lambda.) Diameter of the coil could be 2cm.
For a oscillation of 50MHz L could be 3cm for a coil config and lambda is 600cm)

What is interesting here is the shape of the field on the center node. the electric field make an elongated ellipse at this point perpendicular to the coil. Magnetic field is the same. So magnetic and electric fields emitted in parallel. (I tried to calcu

late and plot shapes of the fields but not succeeded yet). 

It is possible to arrange the oscillation in order to obtain large potentials in the center and near ground signal on edges or vice versa, or a balanced configuration. generally the electric field is enough large to ignite a florescent tube from proximity

 and sustain to glow up to 10-20 cm from coils.

Is this make sense to obtain an effective longitudinal wave?

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 09:28:54 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28505;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:24:41 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:24:41 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35A8DF4C.2C01 skylink.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:07:40 -0700
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, chronos@enter.net
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
References: <199807121458.KAA16926 mail.enter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"_mM323.0.Iz6.7DEgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20527
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Robert G. Flower wrote:
> Jefimenko's formulas for the 1/r^2 component indicate it is not
> instantaneous, but retarded by the conventional (t - r/c) factor.

Yes, he presumes the 1/r^2 field is retarded, hence the factor 
(t - r/c) results in the solution. This factor is representative 
of a TRAVELLING wave -- not a standing wave. A standing wave, or 
combination standing and travelling wave, would be indicated 
by a solution that also contains a factor (t + r/c).

A wave that is travelling away from the source, is by definition 
not a near-field. Perhaps not a radiation field in the same sense as 
the 1/r field, but clearly each half-wave length packet of magnetic 
energy in the 1/r^2 longitudinal wave is travelling away from the 
source. The factor (t - r/c) demands it. The E field in this example
problem is static -- no steady state energy flow -- also along the 
axis it is parallel to the H field. No Poynting vector. Also off the 
axis the static E field and longitudinal H field are always parallel. 
No Poynting vector anywhere except in the 1/r fields. No sloshing back 
and forth of the energy in the longitudinal 1/r^2 field. But energy 
flow travelling away from the source indicated by the factor (t - r/c).

Sorry, I'm still stuck on the original question. In the steady state,
the equation of the longitudinal 1/r^2 field represents a travelling 
wave, but no conventional mode of propagation.   

Thanks for the other example problems. Will look at them.

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 09:36:40 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17920;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:32:03 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:32:03 -0700
From: HLafonte aol.com
Message-ID: <9b1a9f57.35a8e4b2 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:30:41 EDT
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: test delete
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64
Resent-Message-ID: <"nvk6D.0.rN4.3KEgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20528
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

test delete

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 09:51:32 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01748;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:47:56 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:47:56 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199807121638.MAA02399 mail.enter.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <chronos mailman.enter.net>
From: "Robert G. Flower" <chronos mail.enter.net>
Organization: Applied Science Associates
To: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:11:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Reply-to: chronos enter.net
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <35A8DF4C.2C01 skylink.net>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52)
Resent-Message-ID: <"VSmpA1.0.ER.vYEgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20529
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 12 Jul 98 at 9:07, Robert Stirniman wrote: 

> Sorry, I'm still stuck on the original question. In the steady state,
> the equation of the longitudinal 1/r^2 field represents a travelling 
> wave, but no conventional mode of propagation.   


A good question. Commencing to ponder your points.


Best regards,

Bob Flower

=============================================
Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates
> Scientific Software & Instrumentation <
> Quality Control Engineering <
=============================================

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 11:08:32 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA31058;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:03:18 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:03:18 -0700
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:10:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980712114351.007fa4b8 cnct.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980712103216.28304A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"oMmdm1.0.Cb7.cfFgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20530
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Sun, 12 Jul 1998, Keith Nagel wrote:

[snip]

> 
> Steady state conditions are very misleading. Most radar
> cavity circuits show "superluminal" effects, that is
> to say the wavelength can be made much longer than the
> frequency and speed C would seem to allow. What is
> necessary is to shock excite the radiating system
> (in this case the loop dipole) and look at propagation
> delay away from the source. NOT phase delay.

Geo. Giakos showed how to use phase velocity to send a "signal" faster
than c in a waveguide (according to his report in IEEE , - the exact
reference I do not have in the computer I'm using right now , but I can
dig it up later) 

Gunther Nimtz was also onto this and transmitted Mozart's 40th symphony,
 of all things , at a velocity 4.7 * c as he  reported. Audio signals are
rather smoothly varying functions  as opposed to the carrier freq he was
using (in the microwave region , so I wonder about this particular  choice
of "signal") - nevertheless the debate was never resolved as far as I know
as to what exactly constitutes a signal.

As far as using phase velocity to transmit information this does not
involve a flow of energy from point to point but rather a pre-agreement
about the "meaning" of a phase shift . Here again , it gets really sticky
because it becomes an argument as to whether or not a signal is
transmitted if there is no net energy flow from one point to another.
However , when Giakos presented his case back in 1992 the so-called
experts on sci.physics I was discussing this with at the time admitted
to being unable to find any holes in his reasoning. 


To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever really defined what
constitutes a signal so that all the people like yourself who are
experimenting with cavities and so on can say "here it is".


 Mercury
> wetted reed switches are subnanosecond capable,

Keith this is interesting and I wonder if you could provide me with more
info on these reed switches. Mendel Sachs , Ralph Sansbury and a couple of
others I am corresponding with presently are looking for another way to do 
the light pulse experiment you inquired about last year. I'm not supposed
to talk about this online to NGs but you seem knowlegeable and they might
be interested in your thoughts about this subject . We have a financial
backer who is writing the rules as it were so please reply off line.

Thanks and best wishes ,

Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 11:10:06 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA31837;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:05:16 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:05:16 -0700
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:05:30 -0700
Message-Id: <199807121805.LAA02334 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Entropy?
Resent-Message-ID: <"_U4DY2.0.Ln7.RhFgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20531
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Something has been bothering me.
>AFAIK, one way of expressing the concept of entropy, is to say that
>every time we use energy it "degrades", which in turn can be seen as
>converting to a longer wavelength. 

Correct.

Yet, if we were to carry this
>process of degradation to the point where it "degraded" to radio
>waves, then we could theoretically convert them back into "high-grade"
>energy, at quite a high efficiency. Now what does this say about our
>entropy calculations?

Nothing.  It speaks to your understanding of energy conversion.

yes, you can begin with gamma rays, ie short wavelength high frequency high
quality energy, then degrade them to thermal or to radio via scattering.
And then you can use the radio energy if you choose, and convert that back
into high grade energy like the gammas you started with.  But, you will not
have as many gammas as you began with.

The loss is because you will only have coupled some of the low grade energy
back into high grade.  The balance is lost to "heat", ie background thermal
energy.

So Entropy works.  If you think entropy failed in some well understood
process, see the first comment.  If you think entropy failed in some ou
experiment, see the first comment again and go looking for where the extra
energy came from in the experiment.

OU experiments won't violate entropy.

Entropy is due to the continued boiling of aether which in today's terms is
only treated in the big bang and called inflation.  But IMO, it continues
today in what we call exothermic processes.  And keep in mind, recent
supernova studies back up the fact that the universe's rate of expansion is
accelerating despite gravitation supposedly being a pulling force that might
pull everything back together.

Here is how to think.  Exothermy means, aether emission.  It drives the
expansion of the universe.  Entropy means, no matter how you rearrange the
components of some experiment, in the end you will have boiled away some
more aether from high density regions (particles) and produced some more
volume in the universe ocean of aether.  A rock that rolls down a hill is
hidden from incident wave energy coming from space, and so it cannot confine
as much aether in it's solitonic waveforms as can the same rock up in space.
The energy comes out due to aether having been released to the universe.

Basically, the evaporation of tiny knots of aether in the ocean of aether
vapor is what is driving all processes.  It really works when you use these
seemingly crazy ideas.

Ross Tessien



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 11:16:05 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA13014;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:12:53 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:12:53 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:05:27 -0700
Message-Id: <199807121805.LAA02330 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Solitonic Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Resent-Message-ID: <"jtjqp3.0.9B3.ZoFgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20532
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

If you think in terms of "fields" when you think of EM waves then what you
must do is to work out all of the various factors involved in the waves
measured here or there as they propogate outward at c or other possible
velocities for the longitudinal component.  And because you are working with
the idea, "field", there is no warning that the effect may actually
propogate at faster than c, and yet be undetectable using standard devices.

If you think in a different light what I have said can become understood.
Consider some hollow plastic balls the size of a baseball for simplicity.
Inside, place some radio controlled motors.  Attached to the motor shaft
attach an out of balance mass.  Set the ball(s) out on a still pond of
water, and adjust the motor to rotate at rpm x.  Now what you will have
develop is a series of waves headed outward with a frequency x.

I have to go through the explanation of wave interaction and acceleration
interactions first or you won't understand how to work with the longitudinal
component.  But basically, if a "field" is a frequency of wave energy, then
acceleration relative to another object alters the frequency of wave energy
emitted by one object (charged particle) as perceived by another object
during the time of acceleration.  So longitudinal waves may not even be
detectable using our normal EM devices because these are all phase angle
interference devices, if you consider the solitonic model instead of the
"field" model.  

(The field model, BTW, I consider to be exactly as incorrect as the
Ptolemaic celestial spheres.  Then, we invented a new shell for each new
planet.  The we realized that if we put the sun at the center, and use a
Newtonian gravitational equation we no longer needed any celestial spheres
at all.  We learned about the *structure* underlying orbital mechanics.  For
"Force fields", every time we learn about a new acceleration of matter
relative to other matter, we invent a new force field.  What I am saying is
that if we study the wave nature of what we call sub atomic particles,
treating them as real solitons in a real ocean of aether, then we can learn
how to study how aether waves interact with aether waves, and in so doing,
we notice resonant knots in the ocean (particles) and the way the wave
energy around them (fields) alters the motions of other resonances (other
particles) in that same ocean of aether (universe).  In so doing, I find
that you can anticipate all of the forces.  And so it may one day be
possible to give an equation for aether interacting with aether such that we
then describe vortices (particles) in that aether (btw, knots, resonances,
vortices, are different names for the same phenomena.  I use the different
names so you become used to discussing them but I do work with specific
geometries of resonances for specific particles, ie, electron, proton,
neutron, pion, muon, tauon.).

The waves are like the electric field of an electron if you take it into
three dimensions in aether, a series of concentric compression wavefronts.
But the frequency is E45 Hz, the Planck frequency.  That is the frequency of
the oscillations we call, "spacetime".

Now, what you are discussing in this article, according to the aether
solitonic view of the universe, is "how" can we cause that bobbing ball to
accelerate in one direction or another?  The answer is we send in wave
energy from some other bobbing ball somewhere else on the pond (in the
universe ocean of aether).

If you think about it, it is possible for us to send out wave energy from a
second bobber on the pond such that when the waves arrive at the first, they
are out of phase by some angle.  If the angle is 180 degrees, the first
bobber will move toward the second (assume we keep the second bobber
stationary for simplicity, but we could allow both of them to move as is the
actual case for two electrons in space).  But we will keep the second one in
a single position to keep the discussion less complicated.

So, with some wave energy striking the first bobber at 180 degrees, it will
be accelerated toward the first bobber.  If we rotate the phase angle with
our radio control so that the waves arriving at the first bobber are now at
0 degrees phase angle, then the first bobber will now be repulsed.

If we now rotate it to 90 or 270 degrees, the second bobber will not be
accelerated in either direction, ie they will be neutral to one another.

Now what happens if we just advance the phase angle of 2 so that the waves
are arriving at 1 at a 180 degree phase angle and then we just leave the
system alone?  Begin with no relative motion between 1 and 2.

Answer, 1 will accelerate toward 2, but that Doppler shifts the frequency of
the incident wave energy.  So the waves coming from 1 begin to rotate in
phase angle if we do not compensate for the Doppler shift by altering the
frequency of waves emitted from 1 (as I had to do implicitely, but didn't
state it in the above examples where I said that 1 was either accelerated
toward or away from 2)

In a little time, 1 has accelerated toward 2 and the phase angle has rotated
from 180 to 90 degrees where no further acceleration occurs.  But 1 has
attained some velocity relative to 2, and so their relative phase angle is
rotating as it passes through 90 degrees.  This leads to the phase angle
continuing to shift past 90 where the cosine of the angle again is non zero
and a repulsion manifests.  This begins to slow 1 (ie accelerate 1 in a
direction away from 2, which reduces the velocity toward 2).

If everything is ideal, then 1 will come to a rest when it's phase angle
reaches 0 degrees and will begin to accelerate away from 2 again repeating
the process in reverse.  In other words, 1 will oscillate back and forth.

But this isn't how two particles like electrons work.  They don't rotate
their phase angle relative to one another.  The reason is because in the
simple example above using just two bobbers, I did not have a structure of
wave energy arriving from the rest of the universe setting up a matrix of
waves on the pond to act as "spacetime".  If I set up such a standing wave
structure, then two particles are forced to remain locked to that spacetime
wave energy and so their phase angles remain locked to one another (ie,
charge is conserved because particles don't change from being electrons to
positrons as they move through the universe).

If, however, we use energy to force the acceleration of a bunch of
electrons, then we are forcing them to alter the nature of spacetime locally
by their acceleration.  

The point of the above discussion is not easy to understand until after you
work with it for a long while.  But basically, if you study the nature of
the wave energy coupled from a group of accelerating electrons, the phase
angles are rotating a little, and so the effectiveness of the electric field
effect is changing slightly.

ie, F = AQ sin(theta)

where A is the amplitude of the electric interaction, Q is the number of
charged particles, and theta is the phase angle of the accelerating
electrons relative to quiescent spacetime.  Theta will vary slightly above
and below 0 degrees lock to spacetime, thus varying slightly the Intensity
of the electric field even though the numbers of electrons are constant.

If you work with a "field", you cannot anticipate this component of the
interaction because you have no terms for addressing phase rotation relative
to spacetime.  

I suppose you might try to observe some oscillation of a levitated charged
sphere due to the acceleration of charges perturbing the levitated
component.  But when you work with IC's and such, you never really know how
many electrons are involved, so I don't think you could distinguish between
a variance in the numbers of electrons as a function of driving frequency
for some apparatus when compared to the variation in the intensity of the
electric field.

Although maybe there is some hope in accelerators with SR effects as
supposedly mass tends to infinity.  Perhaps included in that is a component
that deals with the effectiveness of coupling wave energy tending toward
zero????????

Ross Tessien




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 11:55:36 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08005;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:50:18 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:50:18 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980712145924.00897ae8 cnct.com>
X-Sender: knagel cnct.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:00:27 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel cnct.com>
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"uG7e11.0._y1.fLGgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20533
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:10 AM 7/12/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Geo. Giakos showed how to use phase velocity to send a "signal" faster
>than c in a waveguide (according to his report in IEEE , - the exact
>reference I do not have in the computer I'm using right now , but I can
>dig it up later) 

Giakos was a student of Ishii. Same set of experiments, same idea.

>
>Gunther Nimtz was also onto this and transmitted Mozart's 40th symphony,
> of all things , at a velocity 4.7 * c as he  reported. Audio signals are
>rather smoothly varying functions  as opposed to the carrier freq he was
>using (in the microwave region , so I wonder about this particular  choice
>of "signal") - nevertheless the debate was never resolved as far as I know
>as to what exactly constitutes a signal.
>

Dog and pony show. The fact that a signal can be shown to be
modulated does not say anything about the signal velocity.
As you correctly point out, if the modulation is audio and
the carrier is microwave.... No, I'll be satisfied when
someone demonstrates this where the modulation is at least
ten times faster than the carrier. In other words, a case
where you can clearly see the speed at which a "ripple"
propagates. 

>As far as using phase velocity to transmit information this does not
>involve a flow of energy from point to point but rather a pre-agreement
>about the "meaning" of a phase shift . Here again , it gets really sticky
>because it becomes an argument as to whether or not a signal is
>transmitted if there is no net energy flow from one point to another.
>However , when Giakos presented his case back in 1992 the so-called
>experts on sci.physics I was discussing this with at the time admitted
>to being unable to find any holes in his reasoning. 

You should talk to RF geeks. Ishii's experiments used detecting
diodes which integrated many cycles of the carrier, no way
you could make a signal propagation measurement with that. 

>
>
>To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever really defined what
>constitutes a signal so that all the people like yourself who are
>experimenting with cavities and so on can say "here it is".

If only. A large portion of the new research papers in this
field seem focused on this aspect, redefining what is meant
by "signal propagation". I have mixed feelings about this.

>
>
> Mercury
>> wetted reed switches are subnanosecond capable,
>
>Keith this is interesting and I wonder if you could provide me with more
>info on these reed switches. Mendel Sachs , Ralph Sansbury and a couple of
>others I am corresponding with presently are looking for another way to do 
>the light pulse experiment you inquired about last year. I'm not supposed
>to talk about this online to NGs but you seem knowlegeable and they might
>be interested in your thoughts about this subject . We have a financial
>backer who is writing the rules as it were so please reply off line.
>

Ok. But really, the whole point of this thing is to share ideas.

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 13:00:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17374;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:50:53 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:50:53 -0700
Message-ID: <19980712192947.25820.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:29:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Reducing Friction with Oscillations
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"jXeGn3.0.JF4.TEHgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20534
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Researchers at the Georgia Institute of Technology report in the June
25 Journal of Physical Chemistry (Vol. B102, pp.5033-5037 (1998)) that
by rapidly oscillating the width of the lubricant-filled gap
separating two sliding surfaces, they can significantly reduce
friction between them. 

The technique keeps the lubricant in a state of dynamic disorder,
preventing the formation of molecular layering that can increase
friction. Based on molecular dynamics simulations, the findings would
be of particular interest to designers of micro-scale machines. 

see WWW site for more info:
http://www.gtri.gatech.edu/res-news/FRICTION.html



==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 14:26:27 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29291;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:20:18 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:20:18 -0700
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 17:13:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Negative Resistance discovered?? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980712170822.2552F college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"0JtHm1.0.b97.IYIgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20535
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:25:12 -0500
From: Jerry W. Decker <jdecker keelynet.com>
To: KeelyNet-L lists.kz
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Negative Resistance discovered??


Hi and Gnorts!

	cuts....


Prof Deborah Chung, speaking at the fifth International
Conference on Composites Engineering in Las Vegas 
yesterday, said: 

 "This is not a superconductor but a strange 
  conduction phenomenon we call negative resistance."

She observed "negative" resistance in carbon-composite
materials, used in aircraft and tennis rackets, and 
zero resistance when these materials were combined 
with others that are conventional, positive resistors.


-------  And the Telegraph leaps at conclusions....

This finding of negative resistance flies in the 
face of a fundamental law of physics - opposites 
attract. Prof Chung said the application of voltage 
usually caused electrons - which carried a negative 
charge - to move toward the high, or positive end, 
of the voltage gradient. 

But in this case, the electrons moved the other 
way, from the plus end of the voltage gradient to 
the minus end. Prof Chung said: 

   "In this case, opposites appear not to attract."



---------


	Negative resitance in carbon certainly has application .... but 
this quote in the Telegraph does not indicate superconductivity.  I am 
afraid Dr. Chung has been mis applied by the Telegraph.

	If anyone finds out different, please let us know,


				JHS

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 15:07:08 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05956;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:02:09 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:02:09 -0700
Message-Id: <35A9324F.7B76A14F verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:01:51 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: 'Negative resistance' surprises material scientists
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"K3SNd2.0.-S1.X9Jgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20536
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is news on http://physicsweb.org/

Subscription is needed to read the full article and I don't have it.
There is a Free trial subscription option, but I did not preferred it.
So if anyone who have access to this site please tell us is there anything more than we read it about.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 15:10:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA07303;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:08:00 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:08:00 -0700
Message-Id: <35A93399.EA66B796 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:07:21 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: PDF to ascii conversion is possible
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"KioHV2.0.0o1.0FJgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20537
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Who needs to convert PDF to ascii or to HTML, this works and instantly!

Goto http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/accessmail.html

It works even you dont have access to the WEB!

It is written:

How to Use Access.adobe.com by E-mail

There are two PDF conversion e-mail addresses that can                  be used to convert PDF files to a form that is more
accessible to screen reading software. The first,
"pdf2html adobe.com" converts PDF documents to
HTML. The second mail address, "pdf2txt adobe.com"
converts PDF documents to ascii text. 

To use either of these mail addresses, simply enter the
URL to the PDF file you wish to convert into the body of a
mail message, and send it to the desired mailbox. You will
receive the converted results in the body of a new mail
message, in a matter of minutes. 

Use pdf2html adobe.com to convert a PDF to HTML. 
Use pdf2txt adobe.com to convert a PDF to ASCII text. 
-----------------------------------------------------

That's it!

Regards, hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 15:22:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09542;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:18:37 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:18:37 -0700
Message-ID: <009701bdade2$863b76a0$6f8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re; Negative Resistance Discovered?
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:13:03 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008E_01BDADAF.F2648D40"
Resent-Message-ID: <"qRQhH3.0.xK2.yOJgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20538
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_008E_01BDADAF.F2648D40
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_001_008F_01BDADAF.F2648D40"


------=_NextPart_001_008F_01BDADAF.F2648D40
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

One can get a similar (negative resistance) effect from heating paper =
(carbon skeleton)sandwiched
between two layers
of aluminum foil. The Pyroelectric effect is being exploited for use as =
a
sensitive Infrared Detector.    FJS


------=_NextPart_001_008F_01BDADAF.F2648D40
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>One can get a similar <FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>(negative resistance) </FONT>effect from heating paper (carbon=20
skeleton)sandwiched<BR>between two layers<BR>of aluminum foil. The =
Pyroelectric=20
effect is being exploited for use as a<BR>sensitive Infrared=20
Detector.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; FJS<BR></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_001_008F_01BDADAF.F2648D40--

------=_NextPart_000_008E_01BDADAF.F2648D40
Content-Type: text/html;
	name="Pyroelectricity.htm"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Pyroelectricity.htm"

<FORM METHOD=3DGET ACTION=3D"eb://cgi-bin/g?"><a =
href=3Deb.htm><b><i>Britannica CD</i></b></a> <INPUT NAME=3D"keywords" =
size=3D33 VALUE=3D""> <inPUT TYPE=3D"submit" VALUE=3D"Search"> <select =
name=3D"DBase"><option>Index<option =
selected>Articles<option>Dictionary</select><input type=3Dhidden =
name=3Dhits value=3D"10 articles"><input type=3Dhidden name=3Dcontext =
value=3D"all articles"><input type=3Dhidden name=3Dindexremove =
value=3D""> <a =
href=3Deb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dhelp/help.htm>Help</a></FORM>





<TITLE>pyroelectricity</TITLE>

<H1>pyroelectricity,</H1>
 <a name=3D4A5RG href=3D"eb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dindex/py/roe.html& =
#4A5RG">=20
        </a>development of opposite=20
electrical charges on different parts of a <a name=3D4A5RH =
href=3D"eb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dindex/cr/yst/0.html& #4A5RH">=20
        </a>crystal that is subjected=20
to temperature change. First observed (1824) in quartz, pyroelectricity=20
is exhibited only in crystallized nonconducting substances having=20
at least one axis of symmetry that is polar (that is, having=20
no centre of symmetry, the different crystal faces occurring=20
on opposite ends). Portions of the crystal with the same symmetry=20
will develop charges of like sign. Opposite temperature changes=20
produce opposite charges at the same point; <I>i.e.,</I> if=20
a crystal develops a positive charge on one face during heating,=20
it will develop a negative charge there during cooling. The=20
charges gradually dissipate if the crystal is kept at a constant=20
temperature.<P>
 Pyroelectricity and its relative piezoelectricity have been=20
studied using a method devised by the German physicist August=20
A. <a name=3D4A5RI href=3D"eb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dindex/ku/ndt.html& =
#4A5RI">        =20
</a>Kundt. A mixture of finely powdered sulfur=20
and red lead is blown through a cloth screen onto a charged=20
crystal. Through friction the sulfur particles acquire a negative=20
charge and are attracted to the positive charges on the crystal,=20
while the positively charged red lead goes to the crystal's=20
negative charges.<P>
 A <a name=3D"first_hit"><B>pyroelectric </B></a> thermometer can =
determine change by measurement=20
of the voltage induced by the separation of the charges.<P>

<hr><h6>Copyright (c) 1995 Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc. All Rights =
Reserved</h6>
<hr><b>Related Propaedia Topics:</b><p>
<a href=3Deb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dpro/020104/A020000000.html& >The =
physical properties of minerals: cleavage; hardness; tenacity; specific =
gravity; magnetic, optical, and radioactive properties</a><p>
<a href=3Deb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dpro/020102/C020000000.html& >Electrical =
conductivity and dielectric behaviour of the Earth's rocks and =
minerals</a><p>
<a href=3Deb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dpro/010207/B050000000.html& >Effects of =
electricity on matter</a><p>
<P>
<img align=3Dcenter src=3Dcheck.jpg> <a =
href=3Deb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dmicro/488/20.html&hits=3D10%20articles&cont=
ext=3Dall%20articles&bold=3Don&sw=3Dpyroelectric&indexremove=3Doff&>Show<=
/a> Index links.
------=_NextPart_000_008E_01BDADAF.F2648D40
Content-Type: text/html;
	name="Ferroelectricity.htm"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Ferroelectricity.htm"

<FORM METHOD=3DGET ACTION=3D"eb://cgi-bin/g?"><a =
href=3Deb.htm><b><i>Britannica CD</i></b></a> <INPUT NAME=3D"keywords" =
size=3D33 VALUE=3D""> <inPUT TYPE=3D"submit" VALUE=3D"Search"> <select =
name=3D"DBase"><option>Index<option =
selected>Articles<option>Dictionary</select><input type=3Dhidden =
name=3Dhits value=3D"10 articles"><input type=3Dhidden name=3Dcontext =
value=3D"all articles"><input type=3Dhidden name=3Dindexremove =
value=3D""> <a =
href=3Deb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dhelp/help.htm>Help</a></FORM>





<TITLE>ferroelectricity</TITLE>

<H1>ferroelectricity,</H1>
 <a name=3D48NZU>
</a>property of certain nonconducting=20
crystals, or dielectrics, that exhibit spontaneous electric=20
polarization (separation of the centre of positive and negative=20
electric charge, making one side of the crystal positive and=20
the opposite side negative) that can be reversed in direction=20
by the application of an appropriate electric field. Ferroelectricity=20
is named by analogy with <a name=3D8HMCE =
href=3D"eb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dindex/fe/rro/14.html& #8HMCE">=20
        </a>ferromagnetism, which=20
occurs in such materials as iron. Iron atoms, being tiny magnets,=20
spontaneously align themselves in clusters called ferromagnetic=20
domains, which in turn can be oriented predominantly in a given=20
direction by the application of an external magnetic field.<P>
 <a name=3D"first_hit"><B>Ferroelectric </B></a> materials--for example, =
barium titanate (BaTiO<img src=3Dfile:///C:\EB\GIFS/sub3.jpg  =
align=3Dmiddle alt=3D"{sub 3}">
) and Rochelle salt--are composed of crystals in which the structural=20
units are tiny <a name=3D48NZW =
href=3D"eb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dindex/el/ect/39.html& #48NZW">=20
        </a>electric dipoles; that=20
is, in each unit the centres of positive charge and of negative=20
charge are slightly separated. In some crystals these electric=20
dipoles spontaneously line up in clusters called <a name=3D8HMCJ =
href=3D"eb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dindex/fe/rro/13.html& #8HMCJ">
         </a>domains, and in <B>ferroelectric </B>=20
crystals the domains can be oriented predominantly in one direction=20
by a strong external electric field. Reversing the external=20
field reverses the predominant orientation of the <B>ferroelectric </B>=20
domains, though the switching to a new direction lags somewhat=20
behind the change in the external electric field. This lag of=20
electric polarization behind the applied electric field is =
<B>ferroelectric </B>=20
hysteresis, named by analogy with ferromagnetic hysteresis.<P>
 Ferroelectricity ceases in a given material above a characteristic=20
temperature, called its Curie temperature, because the heat=20
agitates the dipoles sufficiently to overcome the forces that=20
spontaneously align them.<P>

<hr><h6>Copyright (c) 1995 Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc. All Rights =
Reserved</h6>
<hr><b>Related Propaedia Topics:</b><p>
<a href=3Deb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dpro/010207/A020000000.html& =
>Electrostatics of dielectrics and capacitors</a><p>
<a href=3Deb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dpro/010205/C03C000000.html& >Polarizing =
and diffusion properties and the nature of ionic conduction</a><p>
<P>
<img align=3Dcenter src=3Dcheck.jpg> <a =
href=3Deb:///cgi-bin/g?DocF=3Dmicro/207/41.html&hits=3D10%20articles&cont=
ext=3Dall%20articles&bold=3Don&sw=3Dferroelectric&indexremove=3Doff&>Show=
</a> Index links.
------=_NextPart_000_008E_01BDADAF.F2648D40--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 15:34:17 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17728;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:31:21 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:31:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: mindtech nor.com.au
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980713084027.006a19c8 pophost.nor.com.au>
X-Sender: mindtech pophost.nor.com.au
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:40:27 +1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980712120227.008046c0 cnct.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"H49Kq3.0.wK4.uaJgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20539
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>It's easy for me to conceptualize
>a physical cavity which stores energy. Much harder to imagine
>that the energy itself can create a condition of storage in
>an unbounded space. 
>

Do you know of any way to graphically model these standing waves?

Peter Nielsen


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 15:59:27 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20546;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:54:47 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:54:47 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980712184537.007d7b10 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:45:37 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
In-Reply-To: <199807111313_MC2-52C9-2D1E compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"UcWbs.0.y05.swJgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20541
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


At 01:09 PM 7/11/98 -0400, Jed wrote:

>Larry Wharton writes:
>
>     Jed has quoted the preposterously high value of 10^23 atmospheres in a
>     fully charged Palladium lattice.
>
>I said that according to the Enyo theory, this pressure only exists in tiny
>areas, a few atoms wide, and only on the surface and near surface layers of
>atoms. The average pressure of electrolysis is given in the electrochemical
>literature, and it is nothing like this. As Mitch Swartz pointed out, this
>theory has not been broadly accepted. 


   Nothing of the kind.  I made no commment as to whether
anyone believes this obviously wrong calculation. 


  Nota bene:
    The derived number is plain wrong, no matter who 
translated it, and it will never be adopted by anyone 
trained in material science, physics,
adhesive theory, inorganic chemistry or electrochemistry. 

   Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 15:57:30 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14464;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:47:50 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:47:50 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980712184416.007d91e0 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:44:16 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Maoka and Enyo paper
In-Reply-To: <199807101840_MC2-52C9-183F compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"IefTS2.0.wX3.MqJgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20540
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


At 06:36 PM 7/10/98 -0400, Jed wrote:
>    .....  Nonetheless, the number you purported is much too
>     large, Jed.
>
>No, it isn't to large. I got it exactly right. I am the translator. 


  If you are not interested in scientific accuracy, so be it.

Some of us are.  

 ==========================================================

>You are
>saying that Mizuno, Maoka, Enyo et al. got it wrong. They are not me. I have
>no idea whether their theories are right, wrong or in between.

  ... nor apparently care.  Suggest, you consider
 reading the references.


 ==========================================================


>     Perhaps you, Jed, should stop preaching about things which you know so
>     little.  It diffuses from that about which you know so much more.
>
>This is not preaching. I CLEARLY and REPEATELY stated that I know little
about
>this, with caveat after caveat. Obviously I am directing readers to the
source
>of the information, and standing aside. No reader would take this as an
>endorsement. Only you, in all the world, would argue with me instead of the
>authors.

   It is only a scientific argument. 

   Despite, Jed's claim, translation, notion, or statement,
there is not a "10^23 atm pressure" developed.

 It is an incorrect number.  It is obviously incorrect.

   In fact this error may be a pattern, 
like the over-reliance on the simplistic
equation which gave the "kilowatt".
IMO, such simplistic equations ought to be check by controls, by paradigm
tests, and by other methods before they are believed.

   Furthermore, the purported "10^23 atm pressure" notion involves
electrochemical and material science issues which demonstrate
it to be nonsense.  They are well known for for quite a while.
Those who really care will investigate the issues, as we
did decades ago, and plug the numbers in, or better yet do
some experiments and determine the relevant bond energies involved. 

  As suggested before:
  The theoretical predictions of the Nernst equation
with fugacity considered do not hold to that pressure.
Issues of what "activity" really involves, equilibrium,
and other physical matters dominate.  
As suggested, those interested in learning
might read H. Uhlig, both his electrochemistry book, and
'Corrosion and Corrosion control'.

  Mitchell Swartz

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 18:20:47 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07149;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:17:03 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:17:03 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980712201042.0088e7a0 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 20:10:42 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
In-Reply-To: <000e01bdada6$1de0f3a0$6f8f85ce default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Pqanz1.0.al1.C0Mgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20542
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 09:01 AM 7/12/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

>Breaking it down to Bond Energy:

nice way to look at it Fred...confirms my suspicion that the actual H-O-H
formation supplies more than enuf energy to break up the H-H and O-O bonds.

>H-H        436,000             4.527

It's a small point but I have been researching ways to measure the
dissociation  energy of the H2 molecule lately and the value obtained by
Herzberg in 1970 using a 10.5 m spectrograph is probably the most reliable
value we now have.  It is 4.478 eV.  In 1991, Balakrishnan made a herculean
theoretical effort and obtained a value of 4.4781 eV.

>Net (1,851,000 - 1,370,00)/2 = 240,500 J/mole H2O or 57,440 cal/mole
>(condensed).

57,800 is the value for the gaseous product H2O.  This stands to reason
since the bond energies don't have anything to do with changes of state.
Gaseous reactants -> gaseous products.  A subsequent change of
state....gas->liquid...
liberates extra energy, raising the total to 68,320.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 18:33:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07532;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:24:58 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:24:58 -0700
Message-ID: <19980713012445.23429.rocketmail send1b.yahoomail.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:24:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: michael randall <mrand910 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 'Negative resistance' surprises material scientists
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"QzrWF1.0.br1.f7Mgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20543
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

---Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> wrote:
>
> This is news on http://physicsweb.org/
> 
> Subscription is needed to read the full article and I don't have it.
> There is a Free trial subscription option, but I did not preferred it.
> So if anyone who have access to this site please tell us is there
anything more than we read it  > about.

Not much more info, just confirming previous reports. 
1.  The material wasn't called a superconductor but "a strange
conduction phenomenon called negative resistance."
2.  Deborah Chung and Shoukai Wang so far, have demonstrated negative
resistance as low as -8 ohms for a contact area of one square
centimeter.
3.  The electrons in the circuit appear to flow towards the negative
rather than positive electrode.
4.  Chung suspects this phenomenon is due to the extremely high
pressures used to bind the carbon fiber layers.  No data on pressure
used or if it was applied during the experiment. 

> Regards,
>  
> hamdi ucar
> 
Regards,  Michael Randall 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 18:36:24 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08222;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:27:41 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:27:41 -0700
Message-Id: <35A96273.8BA96475 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 04:27:15 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Negative Resistance discovered??
References: <35A6DB18.395F keelynet.com> <35A7B40A.128C@keelynet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Pa8Xy.0.G02.CAMgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20544
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jerry W. Decker wrote:
> 
> Gnorts!
> 
> Here are Tom Beardens interesting comments on the negative resistance
> phenomenon;
> ===========
> Hi Jerry,
> 
> Thanks for the info.
> 
> True negative resistance just means a "resistor" or
> other component that outputs more energy than it inputs.
> 
> Let's look at one attribute:
> 
> In forward time, a positive resistor is an element that
> diverges and scatters energy from a flow of energy
> passing through it.  At least that definition is good
> enough for government work.
> 
> The same unit, in negative time, would be gathering
> "convergent" energy and outputting it as a coherent
> energy flow.  Just take a video tape of the forward
> time process, so to speak, and play it in reverse to
> see this.

If things can be modeled by time reversal, material should be cooled instead of heating and electrical energy is generated instead of consumed. if so, carbon composite junction is a simple Maxwell demon.
there is no ZPE, there is no need to new energy interpretation, to "regauging". etc that Bearden wrote on the remaing part of letter.

I give little chance to the phenomenon is a innocent violation of the second law of T.D.(if is really produce energy). Instead I expect something in the electricity framework.

[snip]
 
> A negative resistor, of course, is after all just
> a straightforward overunity EM device.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom Bearden
> --

Yes, it solve all the energy problem of the world forever.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 18:50:23 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12532;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:48:05 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:48:05 -0700
Message-Id: <35A96755.195C9CE1 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 04:48:05 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fontana invitation?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Pjooi1.0.j33.KTMgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20545
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is part of the Dr.Giorgio Fontana homepage on list of publicatons:


....
A possibility of emission of high frequency gravitational radiation from d-wave to s-wave type superconductor junctions. (preprint)
Los Alamos National Laboratory preprint database: gr-qc/9804069 

Are you interested in developing these junctions with who was able to discover them? e-mail me. 
....

URL is "http://www.science.unitn.it/~fontana/"

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 19:49:53 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21266;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 19:46:52 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 19:46:52 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 22:35:12 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807122238_MC2-52EA-492A compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"HA5-N2.0.CC5.QKNgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20546
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Scott Little writes:

     285,000 joules is the heat of formation of an entire mole of H2O, when
     formed from H2 and O2 (burning hydrogen) and when the resulting H2O is
     condensed to a liquid.

     The 55,000 joules is just how much you'd get from burning the H that
     would absorb easily into 5cc of Pd.

Ah, I see. That explains why Hagelstein took only the combustion heat. This is
an open cell. The hot vapor leaves the cell immediately, and it cools and
condenses outside.


Energy is one thing, power is another. I did not discuss this in my response
to Wharton. Please note that Fleischmann showed the power level would at the
nanowatt level because the cathode degases slowly. I quoted him on that last
week. See the Morrison versus Fleischmann debate.

The power might be even lower than conventional electrochemistry indicates,
because Storms and others have shown that hyperloaded palladium may be in a
stable phase. If true, this means degassing is slow for a while, then it
suddenly increases, until another plateau is reached: the conventional Beta
phase. Degassing slows again for a while, then it speeds up until you hit the
alpha phase. It slows again for a while, and then drops rapidly again towards
zero, which it never reaches without help. These phases correspond to the
groups of lattice positions being occupied by deuterons at different energy
levels. The shift from one phase to another is readily observable as a cathode
degasses under water. You see the bubbles increase and decrease. You can
measure the gas and draw a curve. It is complicated by the fact that loading
is never even, and different sections of the cathode are in different phases.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 19:50:41 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21448;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 19:47:41 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 19:47:41 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 22:35:25 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: apology
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807122238_MC2-52EA-492C compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"Su-9-3.0.yE5.7LNgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20548
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; Scott Little >INTERNET:little eden.com

Scott Little wrote:

     Jed, I would like to apologize publically for calling you Frothwell.  It
     was rather childish of me.

I thought it was pretty funny. I was trying to think of a good riposte, but
it's tough to find a word that rhymes with "Little." Fiddle? Spittle?


     I would like to take this opportunity to praise the effort you have
     expended on behalf of cold fusion.  You certainly rank among the top
     authorities in the  field.

Authority my ass! I am an authority on the politics and history of cold
fusion. Regarding the scientific content of the papers I am a rank amateur.
Any chemist who reads the papers will understand more about the nitty gritty
than I do. The only real authorities are the scientists who do CF research and
publish papers. It frightens me when people on both sides of the debate
occasionally quote me, as if I were some kind of authority. I send them canned
e-mail messages urging them to *read the original sources*. It is terrible how
many people judge an important scientific issue by reading opinions,
summaries, e-mail rumors, Dick Blue or Jed Rothwell, and tit-for-tat
arguments. The only argument worth reading is Morrison versus Fleischmann,
because Fleischmann is the original source and he includes a wealth of
important details. For example, he mentions the foaming problem caused by
surfactant in heavy water. I wish the NHE people had read that.

There is no harm in e-mail gab, but it is no substitute for papers and
lectures.

I cannot overstress the vital importance of READING ORIGINAL SOURCES. I have
said this million times, but I'd like to illustrate why I keep beating this
drum. In the last week we have seen several postings by people who did not
read the papers they critiqued, and who consequently made large errors about
simple matters of fact. That's terrible! Somebody here was wondering whether
McKubre knows the heat is not from chemistry. That's a key issue. The papers
must address carefully or the experiment would be meaningless. You should
never wonder about such a vital detail. Find out! FIND OUT!!! Dick Blue
wondered why people do not measure nuclear effects like x-rays and neutrons on
line . . . But of course they do! If Blue had read a paper about the on-line
nuclear product detection, and said he does not trust a particular gamma
spectrum for thus and such reason, that would be another story, but he claims
the experiments never happened. Larry Wharton went off on a tangent with
impossible loading ratios and a cathode a hundred times larger than the actual
cathode in question. How much effort does it take to read how big the cathode
is?!? If you cannot get that kind of trivial detail right, how can you expect
people to take your larger claims seriously?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 19:54:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21305;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 19:47:04 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 19:47:04 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 22:34:58 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Maoka and Enyo paper
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807122238_MC2-52EA-4929 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"-AIy1.0.nC5.aKNgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20547
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

I wrote: "No, it isn't too large. I got it exactly right. I am the
translator." Mitch misunderstands, responding:

     If you are not interested in scientific accuracy, so be it.

A translator is not supposed to change anything. It isn't my job to question
or ensure scientific accuracy, only linguistic accuracy. Naturally I
understood this is a radical number, so I carefully reviewed it with Mizuno to
make sure it was not a misprint or a misunderstanding on my part.

     Furthermore, the purported "10^23 atm pressure" notion involves
     electrochemical and material science issues which demonstrate it to be
     nonsense.  They are well known for quite a while. . . .

       As suggested before:
       The theoretical predictions of the Nernst equation with fugacity
     considered do not hold to that pressure.

Enyo is widely regarded as one the best electrochemists in the world. He knows
the standard theories. He realizes this is an apparent violation of them. The
Nerst equation and fugacity are discussed in the papers.  The authors try to
reconcile their conclusions with conventional electrochemistry. Whether they
succeed or not I have no idea, because the issues are over my head.

I think that Swartz's tone of dismissal and his contempt for Enyo is
inappropriate to this forum. Swartz has not read the paper. He has no idea
what it claims or how Enyo proposes to reconcile it with conventional
theories. He could not possibly know what the paper says because his only
exposure to it is from my statements, and I do not have a clue what it is
about. I can only summarize the conclusions. I think that a person who has not
read a paper by a respected senior scientist should never make declarations
like this:

     The derived number is plain wrong, no matter who translated it, and it
     will never be adopted by anyone trained in material science, physics,
     adhesive theory, inorganic chemistry or electrochemistry.

First of all, the phrase "who translated it" (me) is ridiculous. That's like
saying "no matter who typeset it" or "no matter who faxed it." The translator
(that's me again!) has nothing to with it. Second, whether a theory is adopted
or not it might be correct. Science is not a popularity contest. Third, CF
electrochemical systems do exhibit behavior which apparently contradicts
common knowledge and conventional theory. The Enyo theory, if true, would
explain the contradictions nicely. Perhaps a radical theory of this type is
needed, or perhaps a more conventional approach is best. I cannot begin judge
that issue, but I suppose it would not hurt to keep an open mind.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 20:23:22 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA26397;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 20:15:39 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 20:15:39 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980712230630.007d82d0 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:06:30 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Maoka and Enyo paper
In-Reply-To: <199807122238_MC2-52EA-4929 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Seubg1.0.MS6.QlNgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20549
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:34 PM 7/12/98 -0400, Jed wrote:
>
>       As suggested before:
>       The theoretical predictions of the Nernst equation with fugacity
>     considered do not hold to that pressure.
>
>Enyo is widely regarded as one the best electrochemists in the world. He
knows
>the standard theories. He realizes this is an apparent violation of them. The
>Nerst equation and fugacity are discussed in the papers.  The authors try to
>reconcile their conclusions with conventional electrochemistry. Whether they
>succeed or not I have no idea, because the issues are over my head.
>

  The number is laughable.  There is no such pressure in materials.


======================================================
>I think that Swartz's tone of dismissal and his contempt for Enyo is
>inappropriate to this forum. Swartz has not read the paper. 

  First, the contempt is for barkers who push non-science, and not
for scientists.

  Second, Jed's BS is inappropriate for this forum.

  Third, please stop misquoting me, Mr. Rothwell, if you can.

=====================================================

>He has no idea
>what it claims or how Enyo proposes to reconcile it with conventional
>theories. He could not possibly know what the paper says because his only
>exposure to it is from my statements, and I do not have a clue what it is
>about.


  Having studied electrochemistry, corrosion & corrosion control,
and material science at MIT, it is clear Jed's "10^23 atm" calculation
report is quite erroneous.  Those in the field are aware of this
miscalculation which is off by orders and orders of magnitude.

=====================================================

> I can only summarize the conclusions. I think that a person who has not
>read a paper by a respected senior scientist should never make declarations
>like this:
>
>     The derived number is plain wrong, no matter who translated it, and it
>     will never be adopted by anyone trained in material science, physics,
>     adhesive theory, inorganic chemistry or electrochemistry.
>
>First of all, the phrase "who translated it" (me) is ridiculous. That's like
>saying "no matter who typeset it" or "no matter who faxed it." The translator
>(that's me again!) has nothing to with it. Second, whether a theory is
adopted
>or not it might be correct. Science is not a popularity contest. Third, CF
>electrochemical systems do exhibit behavior which apparently contradicts
>common knowledge and conventional theory. The Enyo theory, if true, would
>explain the contradictions nicely. Perhaps a radical theory of this type is
>needed, or perhaps a more conventional approach is best. I cannot begin judge
>that issue, but I suppose it would not hurt to keep an open mind.

   This is as erroneous as the "red herring" of the misapplication
of the Anode Effect.   CF systems are consistent with conventional
physics. 

   Those who read the literature will know about what my posts,
and the issue brought up therein, concern.

  Mitchell Swartz





  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 20:35:27 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06788;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 20:29:14 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 20:29:14 -0700
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 03:29:18 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35ad7e78.147241784 mail-hub>
References: <3.0.5.32.19980712184537.007d7b10 world.std.com>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980712184537.007d7b10 world.std.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"AObrH2.0.zf1.9yNgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20550
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:45:37 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
[snip]
>  Nota bene:
>    The derived number is plain wrong, no matter who 
>translated it, and it will never be adopted by anyone 
>trained in material science, physics,
>adhesive theory, inorganic chemistry or electrochemistry. 
>
>   Mitchell Swartz
>
Actually 10^23 atm is more in the ball park of the pressure on the
nucleus (whether on the inside or the outside, depends on your pet
theory).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 23:13:30 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA05178;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:05:06 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:05:06 -0700
Message-Id: <v01530500b1cf5257b7ad [208.228.222.161]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 22:07:23 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Room Temperature Superconductor
Resent-Message-ID: <"TNQMm2.0.qG1.IEQgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20551
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gnorts Vorts!

I have been intensely busy lately, so have been unable to catch up with
vortex. In case you missed it, it appears there has been a significant
discovery.  Like you all, I suspect, I see many really good ways to use
this new capability.

The press announcement URL is (as of Sunday, July 12):
http://www.buffalo.edu/news/Latest/searchindex/ChungResistance.html



CARBON COMPOSITES SUPERCONDUCT AT ROOM TEMPERATURE


SUPERCONDUCTION AT ROOM TEMPERATURE: NEGATIVE ELECTRICAL RESISTANCE
SEEN IN CARBON COMPOSITES



LAS VEGAS -- Materials engineers at the University at Buffalo have
made two discoveries that have enabled carbon-fiber materials to
superconduct at room temperature.

The related discoveries were so unexpected that the researchers at
first thought that they were mistaken.

Led by Deborah D.L. Chung, Ph.D., UB professor of mechanical and
aerospace engineering, the engineers observed negative electrical
resistance in carbon-composite materials, and zero resistance when
these materials were combined with others that are conventional,
positive resistors.

Their observation of zero resistance is the first time that this has
been seen without cooling.  Zero resistance has been seen in
superconducting materials, but only at temperatures of 125 degrees
Kelvin, about -150 degrees Centigrade or -234 degrees Fahrenheit.

Without resistance, there is no energy loss, so the amount of energy
that is put into a system is exactly the amount that it produces.

According to the researchers, the discovery has the potential to lead
to much faster, far- more-efficient electronic devices, previously
assumed to be possible only with the development of room-temperature
superconductors. Potential applications include much-simpler,
more-powerful electronic circuits in computers and far-more-efficient
"smart" structural components for aircraft and concrete structures.

The research was presented here today (July 9, 1998) in a keynote
address at the fifth International Conference on Composites
Engineering by Chung, who holds the Niagara Mohawk Chair in Materials
Research at UB.

"We have achieved zero resistance without cooling and without a
superconducting material," said Chung.

"With structural electronics, the structural composite itself can act
as the electrical circuitry, but the fibers in the composite are far
less conductive than copper.  Our research shows that it is possible
to overcome that resistance and make these structural electronics far
more efficient," she said.

This finding of negative resistance flies in the face of a fundamental
law of physics: Opposites attract.

Chung explained that in conventional systems, the application of
voltage causes electrons -- which carry a negative charge -- to move
toward the high, or positive end, of the voltage gradient.

But in this case, the electrons move the other way, from the plus end
of the voltage gradient to the minus end.

"In this case, opposites appear not to attract," said Chung.
The researchers are studying how this effect could be possible.

Chung, working with Shoukai Wang, a UB doctoral candidate in
mechanical and aerospace engineering, made the discovery while
conducting research on the intrinsic electrical properties of carbon
composites related to developing "smart materials," in which she has
played a leading role.

Chung explained that it is the unusually high pressure used to cure
the carbon-epoxy composite that appears to be responsible for the
finding.

 "We were looking at the effect of curing pressure on the junction
between carbon-fiber layers, and were making electrical measurements
of the interface," she said.  "When we saw the negative resistance at
the interface, we didn't believe it for quite a few months.  But after
checking and rechecking our connections, using different meters over a
period of time and observing the continuous change of resistance from
positive to zero and then to negative values during curing, we came to
realize that what we were seeing was truly negative resistance."

According to Chung, an unknown mechanism must be at work that is being
triggered by sufficient contact between the layers of carbon fibers.

In the experiments, two layers of carbon fibers oriented in different
directions and bound together by epoxy, Portland cement or pressure
demonstrated negative resistance as low as -8 ohms for a contact area
of one square centimeter. (An ohm is a unit that measures electrical
resistance.)

The researchers noted that absolute zero resistance can be achieved
when the values of positive and negative resistors connected in series
match exactly.

"It's a matter of tailoring them to make them exactly the same," said
Chung.

A patent application has been filed on the invention.  Previous
patents filed by other researchers on negative resistance have been
limited to very narrow ranges of the voltage gradient.

In contrast, the UB researchers have exhibited negative resistance
that does not vary throughout the entire gamut of the voltage
gradient.

Companies that are interested in technical information on the
invention should contact the UB Office of Technology Transfer at
716-645-3811 or by e-mail at <lohrman research.buffalo.edu>.
______________________________________________________________________

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 12 23:18:24 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA06237;
	Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:10:34 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:10:34 -0700
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Entropy?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:10:46 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35ae9944.154104414 mail-hub>
References: <199807121805.LAA02334 Au.oro.net>
In-Reply-To: <199807121805.LAA02334 Au.oro.net>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"zPITC.0.IX1.QJQgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20552
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:05:30 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
[snip]
>The loss is because you will only have coupled some of the low grade energy
>back into high grade.  The balance is lost to "heat", ie background thermal
>energy.

The point I was trying to make, was based on the concept of *only*
producing radio waves, without any background thermal energy. The
concept being that in theory at least, I can do work while converting
heat into radio waves, because radio waves are longer than heat waves.
Practically, this could perhaps be done out in deep space (or the dark
side of the moon etc.) where a heat engine could attain close to 100%
efficiency, by radiating energy away at the temperature of the
microwave background (i.e. 2.7 K). However because the radiated energy
is in the form of microwaves, almost all of it can be recaptured and
reused. IOW almost all of the energy can be used twice, iso once, and
then most of that can be used again, etc. If you add up all the
partial re-uses of the same energy, before you finally lose
everything, you have done much more work with the initial amount of
energy than is normally taken into account when calculating the
increase in entropy (which basically assumes that you lose the energy
after one pass - see Carnot efficiency). (This is also a concept that
Tom Bearden pushes).
So if I have a microwave capture and conversion efficiency of 80% (is
this a reasonable number?), then in total, I can do 1/1-.8 = 5 joules
of work with only one joule of energy.
The reason this is currently seen as so outlandish, is that we are
used to thinking in terms of energy dissipation and loss. We think in
these terms, because we usually "give up" on recovering energy when it
reaches the thermal stage. We see "low grade" thermal energy as
useless and throw it away. But looked at from the point of wavelength,
it is actually "higher grade" than radio waves. Yet we are able to
gather and "upgrade" radio waves, into energy of almost any grade, by
means of electric conversion.
The *only* reason that heat is seen as low grade, is that we don't
have a "heat diode". (Well actually we do, they're called solar cells,
but these are only about 25% efficient at best). 
What we really need, is a substance that is a strong radio-emitter
when heated (or even just warmed :). Something that might serve the
purpose, would be a gas with long molecules, that has ions stuck at
the ends. If the molecules are long enough, and able to move freely,
then when the plastic is immersed in a magnetic field, thermal motion
will agitate the end ions, causing them to accelerate in the magnetic
field, and radiate radio waves.
Such a substance would absorb heat energy from the environment, and
convert it into longer wavelength radio waves that we could then
rectify and turn into electric current. As far as conventional entropy
calculations are concerned this material would be down-converting
radiant energy, so it would be seen as an increase in entropy.
>
>So Entropy works.  If you think entropy failed in some well understood
>process, see the first comment.  If you think entropy failed in some ou
>experiment, see the first comment again and go looking for where the extra
>energy came from in the experiment.
The bottom line as far as I am concerned, is that the ability to
rectify a wave, results in negative entropy, i.e. it gives us the
ability to convert random motion into directed motion.
Our second "law" was written at a time when energy, once "randomised"
could not be recovered. That may now be changing.

Ok, having now made abundantly clear for all the world to see, that I
haven't really a clue what entropy really is, I will leave it to the
rest of you to put me straight. :-)
PS Don't worry Ross, your discourse was not wasted on me, but I want
to see where this leads before "surrendering".

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 03:00:58 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA29788;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:51:03 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:51:03 -0700
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified)
Message-Id: <l03102800b1cf87e24151 [12.64.4.86]>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980712103216.28304A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
References: <3.0.32.19980712114351.007fa4b8 cnct.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:49:54 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Resent-Message-ID: <"IBnBI2.0.MH7.7YTgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20553
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jim -

   >  To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever
   >  really defined what constitutes a signal so
   >  that all the people like yourself who are
   >  experimenting with cavities and so on can
   >  say "here it is".

Isn't a signal what lets you know you whether the cat in the box is dead or
alive? I know, doesn't help...

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 03:16:05 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA31286;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 03:11:17 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 03:11:17 -0700
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified)
Message-Id: <l03102801b1cf8cfc7462 [12.64.35.157]>
In-Reply-To: <19980712192947.25820.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:10:11 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Reducing Friction with Oscillations
Resent-Message-ID: <"_6_Gx2.0.he7.4rTgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20554
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Anton -

   >  [...] the findings would be of particular interest
   >  to designers of micro-scale machines.

...and to those not wanting to get buried under avalanches. The chaotic
mass of particles causes rock slides to go much further than you'd expect.
Probably works with mud, snow, etc.

  - Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 03:46:46 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA16035;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 03:39:13 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 03:39:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified)
Message-Id: <l03102802b1cf8e03b21c [12.64.35.157]>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980712081515.0088d490 mail.eden.com>
References: <199807112305_MC2-52D0-A7D8 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:25:25 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
Resent-Message-ID: <"JoZ-r1.0.Tw3.GFUgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20555
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Scott -

   >  If so, it must be the same situation for the
   >  burning of H2 and O2, the formation of a
   >  mole of H2O from separate H and O atoms
   >  must produce 285,000 joules PLUS the
   >  432,000 joules needed to dissociate a mole
   >  of H2 PLUS half the energy needed to dissoc a
   >  mole of O2, no?

While reading this thread I keep thinking of the video (newsmagazine video,
"20/20" or something) of the firemen trying to put out an arson fire in the
Northeast fueled by barrels of home-brewed "rocket fuel" placed in the
target building. They'd shoot a big spray of water on the core of the fire
but it resulted in an intense bloom of white-hot flame, causing them to
back off. The narration explains that the heat from the fuel fire was so
hot that the water was cracked and then recombined, causing the flare-up.
They said that you couldn't use water on such a fire because it was like
spraying fuel on it, and that is exactly what it looked like they were
doing.

I thought that was strange, since because the crack-recombine reactions
zeroed out, you'd at least draw out of the source fire the energy required
to heat that much water to it's eventual phase as superhot water vapor -
thereby dispersing some heat, part of fire's triangle. But the fire crews
did back of on that technique, seeing that it did simply appear to burn
their water. Excess energy, or just video newsmagazine distortion?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 04:00:33 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA02408;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 03:55:46 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 03:55:46 -0700
Message-Id: <35A9E7BA.88934327 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:55:54 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: humour on negative R
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"X_Cj_.0.Yb.nUUgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20556
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dear Colleague,

Attached is public release of our new discovery at UB. Hope will take your attention. 

We are currently working with a major electronic component producer to introduce standard full range composite carbon "negative" resistor components in 1/10, 1/4, 1/2, 1W and 2W specs in standard packages soon.

Carbon composite negative resistors have very linear characteristics, low temperature coefficient, long durability and able to manufacture in low tolerance limits. Frequency characteristics of this new material are excellent, combined with our improved pa

ckaging  system, virtually free of all non ohmic components, providing flat response from DC to gigahertz range. 

The program cover industrial and military ranges, and meet and exceed ISO 5344-1004 standard. Additionally, we will introduce Safe(TM) series having current limiting and short circuit protection.

We hope the negative resistance series will fill the missing part of the electronic circuit component spectrum, will greatly simplify the circuit design, reduce number of layers of electronic circuit board by making power rails obsolete. This will also le

ad to reduce costs and allow lightweight devices by eliminating power supplies and on/off switches, and battery housings in portable device, allowing much more compact designs. 

Our new material could be used for extending dynamics of existing components such as potentiometers, allowing to start them from negative values instead of zero ohm.

Beside of discrete usage, our new material could be embedded to any active and passive components to preset or adjust their internal resistances freely, lowering or totally eliminating operating voltage of the components, this allow ZeroVolt(TM) families 

of analog and digital circuits including digital memories and microprocessors.

The usage of this material is of course not limited by electronics, smart usage of this material in mechanical structures will be very important in outdoors sporting equipment and in aeronautics where large temperature gradients and stress exists. A carbo

n composite structure now can be hold in a constant temperature without any power requirement, thus eliminating thermal stress, and allowing the material give its best mechanical properties related it usage. For example ski equipment made from carbon comp

osite will take advantage of this technology keeping the skies warm, allowing optimal flexibility, very low surface friction and no icing even in extreme climate conditions.

Yours truly,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 05:07:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA21540;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:04:06 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:04:06 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199807131153.HAA15283 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Neg. resistance - LA Times
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 08:00:44 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"qvAO_.0.SG5.pUVgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20557
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Vortexians:

Here is what "experts" are saying about "negative reistance." I 
particularly like the remark.

 "If the effect is real, said Lo, then it could be "quite
valuable. . . . Whether it is an infinite source of energy, that is not
known yet." 

Gene Mallove


L.A. Times, July 10, 1998:

Experts Scoff at Claim of Electricity Flowing With 'Negative Resistance' 
Physics: Scientist says she discovered a material in which this process
occurs. But that breaks law of thermodynamics, others maintain. 
                  By K.C. COLE, Times Science Writer               

        To the general disbelief of experts in the field, a University
of Buffalo scientist claimed Thursday to have discovered a material that
conducts electricity with "negative resistance" at room temperature. 
     Such a miraculous material would be a quantum leap better than
long-sought room temperature superconductors, which would only carry
electricity friction-free, without energy loss. A negative resistance
material wouldactually create electricity. 
     However, most scientists interviewed said they were highly
skeptical of the reportby Buffalo's Deborah Chung. "Negative resistance
means you are generating power," said mechanical engineer Cetin
Cetinkaya of Clarkson University in Potsdam, N.Y., who saw Chung
demonstrate her experiment at the International Conference on Composites
Engineering in Las Vegas, where she presented her findings. 
     "Physically, that's not possible," Cetinkaya said. "I would love to
see that. It would mean when you're working on your laptop, you would be
creating energy." 
     Cetinkaya and others do believe that Chung may have discovered an
"intriguing" new way to change the direction of electric currents, with
possibly useful applications. "This is very similar to the transistor
concept," Cetinkaya said. 

     'It's Possible They've Made a Little Battery' 

     Although a news release from the University of Buffalo announced
that Chung had  discovered a material that "superconducts at room
temperature," she herself stressed  that the material was not
superconducting--a unique zero-resistance state accompanied
by peculiar magnetic effects. 
    "We are not claiming that we've discovered a new
superconductor," she said in an interview. However, she did say
that the negative resistance effect could be used in an electric
circuit to "negate positive resistance . . . and the totality would be
zero." 
     Other scientists said this was not possible. "Negative resistance
violates the second law of thermodynamics," said UCLA physicist Steve
Kivelson. "It's impossible." 
     Caltech material scientist Brendt Fultz agreed. "It's hard to
believe. I'm sure it's violating one of the two laws of thermodynamics,"
he said. "It's possible they've [inadvertently] made a little battery."
If so, the "negative resistance" effect would be temporary, and not
useful in applications, he said. It would certainly not produce zero
resistance for any length of time, he added. 
     Since no peer-reviewed scientific paper was available--only a
four-page abstract--scientists could not adequately evaluate Chung's
claims. She is a widely published expert in the field of "smart"
materials, which can act as sensitive sensors or electrical components
by their very structure, without any added parts like computer
chips or electrical leads. 
     Chung discovered the effect accidentally while testing a material
made of bundles of carbon fibers at high pressure. She placed two layers
of fibers crosswise to each other, and pressed them together with epoxy.
She then attached electrodes to the top and bottom layer, and passed a
small current through. At the point where fibers from the two layers
met, she says, she measured negative resistance.
    Like water running over a waterfall, electric currents
normally flow only toward one end of the circuit--that is, "downhill."
(Instead of a difference in height, electric currents are propelled by a
difference in voltage.) As water flows down the hill, it encounters
resistance from obstacles like rocks. Currents similarly run into
resistance from atoms as they flow through wires. 
     Of course, if the bottom of a waterfall were raised higher than the
top, one would expect the water to reverse its flow. The same is true of
a reversal of voltage; current flows in the opposite direction. 
     However, Chung's measurements show the current switching direction
even when the voltage remained unchanged, as if water suddenly started
flowing up a waterfall, she said. Although Chung said she was not
claiming to have created energy, she did not have a good explanation for
the effect. 
     Current flowing in the wrong direction for any length of time, and
without any additional input of energy, probably violates fundamental
laws of nature, scientists said. 
     Chung theorized that some new mechanism was at work that
"overshadowed" these laws. 

     Peers Intrigued by Startling Report 

     Several scientists at the meeting said they were intrigued by
Chung's findings. "The electrons are flowing in the other direction,"
said materials scientist Jason Lo of the Canada Center for Minerals and
Energy Technology. "That's not usual, so something has to be happening
at the juncture [of the fibers]. The cause and effect is not known."
        If the effect is real, said Lo, then it could be "quite
valuable. . . . Whether it is an infinite source of energy, that is not
known yet." 
  Scientists studying zero-resistance materials have certainly
been surprised before. Before 1986, virtually no physicists
believed that superconductivity could exist much above absolute
zero--minus 450 degrees Fahrenheit. The discovery that year of so-called
"high temperature superconductors"--which carry currents friction-free
at temperatures hundreds of degrees higher, though still quite cold--set
off a frenzy of research into new materials. 
     Since then, the discovery of room temperature superconductivity has
been announced many times, but never confirmed. 
     Discovery of negative resistance, however, would make the search
for room temperature superconductors moot, Kivelson said. Zero
resistance at room temperature would be "trivial" next to negative
resistance, he said. "Who cares about zero when you
can do better than zero?" 
     Several experts in materials research who read Chung's abstract
declined to comment.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 05:11:44 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA21566;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:04:14 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:04:14 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199807131153.HAA15293 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Nobel Laureate Josephson on Neg. Resist.
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 08:00:47 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"rFV3W3.0.sG5.wUVgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20558
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Subject:     Re: of possible interest
Sent:        7/12/98 9:01 AM
Received:    7/13/98 7:41 AM
From:        Brian Josephson, bdj10 cam.ac.uk
To:          list


--On Sat, Jul 11, 1998 1:10 -0500 "Marcello Truzzi"
<soc_truzzi ONLINE.EMICH.EDU> wrote: 

>>Release Date: EMBARGOED UNTIL 7/9/98 [Image]
>>Contact: Ellen Goldbaum
>>Phone: 716-645-2626
>>E-mail: goldbaum newsb.buffalo.edu
>>                  
---------------------------------------------------------
> SUPERCONDUCTION AT ROOM TEMPERATURE: NEGATIVE ELECTRICAL
>                  RESISTANCE SEEN IN CARBON COMPOSITES
> 
>>LAS VEGAS -- Materials engineers at the University at
>>Buffalo have made two discoveries that have enabled
>>carbon-fiber materials to superconduct at room
>>temperature.
>>
>>The related discoveries were so unexpected that the
>>researchers at first thought that they were mistaken.

I think they still are!  Take a careful look at this extract from the LA
Times news release:

> Chung discovered the effect accidentally while testing a material made
> of bundles of carbon fibers at high pressure. She placed two layers of
> fibers crosswise to each other, and pressed them together with epoxy. She
> then attached electrodes to the top and bottom layer, and passed a small
> current through. At the point where fibers from the two layers met, she
> says, she measured negative resistance.

So the 'resistance' is being measured by a 4 terminal method, but the
configuration doesn't correspond to the ideal resistance-measuring method,
where the voltage leads and current leads are connected to effectively the
same points.  Furthermore, energy is being fed into the system by the
current leads, and I'm sure that if Dr. Chung is pressed she'll admit that
less power is being received by the voltage leads than is fed in by the
current leads.

> Caltech material scientist Brendt Fultz agreed. "It's hard to believe.
> I'm sure it's violating one of the two laws of thermodynamics," he said.
> "It's possible they've [inadvertently] made a little battery." If so, the
> "negative resistance" effect would be temporary, and not useful in
> applications, he said.

Gloss: I agree with 'it's hard to believe'.  I suggest though they've
inadvertently made a little _transformer_.  The effect could be useful in
applications.

>>the engineers
>>observed negative electrical resistance in
>>carbon-composite materials, and zero resistance when
>>these materials were combined with others that are
>>conventional, positive resistors.
>>Their observation of zero resistance is the first time
>>that this has been seen without cooling. Zero resistance
>>has been seen in superconducting materials, but only at
>>temperatures of 125 degrees Kelvin, about -150 degrees
>>Centigrade or -234 degrees Fahrenheit.

Hype added with the hope of attracting funding.  Even if it _were_ a real
effect, e.g extracting energy from the vacuum, it would not be
superconducivity.

>>
>>This finding of negative resistance flies in the face of
>>a fundamental law of physics: Opposites attract.

I am left speechless!  Pass!!


Brian Josephson

--------------

*** you have your funny effect?  we'll show you where your confusion lies
***


 * * * * * * *      Prof. Brian D. Josephson :::::::: bdj10 cam.ac.uk
* Mind-Matter *   Cavendish Lab., Madingley Rd, Cambridge CB3 0HE, U.K.
* Unification *  voice: +44(0)1223 337260/337200 fax: +44(0)1223 337356
*   Project   *         WWW: http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10
 * * * * * * *

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 05:18:00 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA09494;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:12:05 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:12:05 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980713071327.00890d70 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:13:27 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
In-Reply-To: <199807122238_MC2-52EA-492A compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"ePcUS1.0.GK2.LcVgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20559
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:35 PM 7/12/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>...These phases correspond to the
>groups of lattice positions being occupied by deuterons at different energy
>levels. The shift from one phase to another is readily observable as a
cathode
>degasses under water. You see the bubbles increase and decrease. You can
>measure the gas and draw a curve. It is complicated by the fact that loading
>is never even, and different sections of the cathode are in different phases.

....uh, that's pretty good for a political historian!....<g>


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 05:35:57 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12869;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:31:23 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:31:23 -0700
Message-ID: <007c01bdae59$a84d4300$338f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Potassium-Hexane Arc Experiment, LENR?
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:27:45 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"Y8gb02.0.z83.QuVgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20560
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Perhaps J. Frothwell and Chicken Little will
agree on this one.  :-)

A piece of potassium metal immersed in a light
hydrocarbon (pentane or hexane) using a Tungsten electrode, and a suitable
power supply
should show the results that Ohmori is getting
with the tungsten discharge without the Oxygen present.

C. Little's alter ego, Scott Little, has the
plumbing and calorimeter to do this experiment.

There may be a buildup of H2, CH4, and other
C2 thru C4 gasses in the chamber that may need to be vented into an
evacuated holding chamber.

Disrespectfully.    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 06:32:32 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA18457;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:25:57 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:25:57 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35AA0ADA.EBFAA520 css.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:25:47 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: PDF to ascii conversion is possible
References: <35A93399.EA66B796 verisoft.com.tr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"zjhw3.0.IW4.ahWgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20561
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> Who needs to convert PDF to ascii or to HTML, this works and instantly!

Thanks for passing this one on!  


John E. Steck
--------------------------------o]{:
  Senior Mechanical Engineer
  Rapid Tooling Applications
  Motorola PCS, Libertyville
  
"If everything you try works, 
  you are not trying hard enough" 
    - Gordon Moore (founder Intel Corp.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 06:46:40 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA03189;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:40:20 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:40:20 -0700 (PDT)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35AA0C7C.E6EED7C9 css.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:32:44 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
References: <199807112305_MC2-52D0-A7D8 compuserve.com> <l03102802b1cf8e03b21c@[12.64.35.157]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"GUD9l3.0.jn.2vWgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20562
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rick Monteverde wrote:
> Excess energy, or just video newsmagazine distortion?

Newsmagazine distortion.  Recombining could give that effect, but energy is
consumed in the conversion processes.  A change in tactics is definitely needed
to accelerate the energy reduction rate in those extreme conditions however. 
As with grease, electrical, and chemical  fires, water isn't always the best
solution.  8^)



John E. Steck
--------------------------------o]{:
  Senior Mechanical Engineer
  Rapid Tooling Applications
  Motorola PCS, Libertyville
  
"If everything you try works, 
  you are not trying hard enough" 
    - Gordon Moore (founder Intel Corp.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 06:47:07 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA04170;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:45:17 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:45:17 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980713083859.00cacfa0 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:38:59 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "Vortex-L" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Potassium-Hexane Arc Experiment, LENR?
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
In-Reply-To: <007c01bdae59$a84d4300$338f85ce default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"W_4k62.0.-01.gzWgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20564
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 06:27 7/13/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

>A piece of potassium metal immersed in a light
>hydrocarbon (pentane or hexane) using a Tungsten electrode, and a suitable
>power supply

Jeez, Fred, that would surely make the sky fall!



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 06:47:33 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA03715;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:43:25 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 06:43:25 -0700 (PDT)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35AA0D33.A253DF9C css.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:35:47 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Negative Resistance discovered??
References: <19980711215241.19085.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"f-A631.0.yv.wxWgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20563
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Anton Rager wrote:
> 2 - Bearden has a valid point.  National Security will probably keep
> the wraps on this one.  Hope we don't all get a visit by MIBs just for
> the small bit that we now know ;)

Hmmm.  Just occured to me that there is quite a bit carbon fiber composite used
on planes exhibiting stealth technology.  A 'negative resistance' skin would be
a nice defensive conductor for directed energy signals.....  Given the
implications I wouldn't be too supprised if this does get atleast a token sweep
job, but the djini is out of the bottle now.  The fact that it might be
remotely possible is more than enough incentive for many to start tinkering
around with the concept.

Now that I think about it, I wouldn't mind having to go buy a new fishing
pole.....  8^)



John E. Steck
--------------------------------o]{:
  Senior Mechanical Engineer
  Rapid Tooling Applications
  Motorola PCS, Libertyville
  
"If everything you try works, 
  you are not trying hard enough" 
    - Gordon Moore (founder Intel Corp.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 07:09:22 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA28340;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:06:49 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:06:49 -0700
Message-ID: <35AA14AB.2C0C interlaced.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:07:39 -0400
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: WARNING!!
References: <007c01bdae59$a84d4300$338f85ce default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"P7Tm91.0.jw6.uHXgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20565
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Frederick J Sparber wrote:
> 
> To: Vortex
> 
> Perhaps J. Frothwell and Chicken Little will
> agree on this one.  :-)

Groan...  In an effort to spred the pain, you can all refer to me
as Frank Stinkfinger.

Actually, I may need to unsubscribe for a while to get my affairs in
order.  I sense an "Extinction level event" about to happen:

	1. Jed and Scott act nice to each other.
	2. Hell freezes over.
	3. The central core of Earth shrinks from the cooling, leading
	   to general compressive failure of the outer crust.
	4. We all die.

I'm outa here!!

Frank Stinkfinger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 07:23:32 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA30592;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:19:08 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:19:08 -0700
From: BriggsRO aol.com
Message-ID: <bdd12d2f.35aa1743 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:18:42 EDT
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Negative resistance
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 170
Resent-Message-ID: <"UR4bz.0.tT7.RTXgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20566
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Some thoughts on negative resistance:

1) The negative resistance effect observed in gas discharges is actually a
negative nonlinearity in a positive resistance system.  The actual resistance
never goes negative.  Negative resistance would cause a - to + current flow
when a + to - voltage is applied.

2) If the reported "negative resistence"  is the result of a thermoelectric
voltage source, it should be polarized;  that is the apparent resistance
should go positive if the leads to the ohm meter are reversed.

3)	A simple experiment would demonstrate real negative resistance.  If a
capacitor were given a small charge, then placed in parallel with the negative
resistor, the voltage across the capacitor would rise exponentially as the
reverse current flows.  (It would eventually blow up any physical capacitor.) 

4) A practical device could be made by connecting the negative resistor across
a battery providing a permanent battery charger.  Current could be withdrawn
from the battery forever.

Bob Briggs

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 07:41:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA00865;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:37:21 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:37:21 -0700
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:28:15 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Maoka and Enyo paper
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807131031_MC2-52EA-63BE compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"k8F7_.0.QD.WkXgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20567
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; Mitchell Swartz >INTERNET:mica world.std.com

Mitchell Swartz writes:

     Having studied electrochemistry, corrosion & corrosion control, and
     material science at MIT, it is clear Jed's "10^23 atm" calculation
     report is quite erroneous.  Those in the field are aware of this
     miscalculation which is off by orders and orders of magnitude.

For the third and last time Mitch: it is NOT my calculation. How could it be?
It is Maoka, Enyo and Mizuno's calculation. It could be wrong by 22 orders of
magnitude for all I know, but that  still would not make it MY calculation. It
appears in Arabic numerals on page 212 of the Mizuno book. LOOK IT UP, for
crying out loud. Technically, I did not even translate it; I transcribed it.

You regularly accuse people of "distorting" and getting things wrong. For the
record I have never seen anyone repeatedly distort simple matters of fact the
way you do. It is astonishing -- and seemingly pointless. Anyone knows that a
translator does not "calculate" and that he bears no responsibility for a
number in the text. I do not understand what drives you to repeat this kind of
idiotic nonsense. What is the point of saying that I "calculated" this?
Everyone knows I did not calculate it, I had nothing to do with it, and I
could no more calculate these numbers or master the physics of this paper than
I could climb Mt. Everest! If I translate this morning's Yomiuri election news
are you going to accuse me of throwing the Prime Minister out of office? The
Italians say 'translators are traitors,' but you are the first person in
history to say that a translator is the original author who makes the
calculations in a paper. You destroy your own credibility by repeating this
kind of topsy-turvy nonsense. Your messages are belligerent, impolite,
disruptive and pointless.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 07:48:30 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA13871;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:46:31 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:46:31 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:35:22 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Hazard from water fractured with heat
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807131038_MC2-52E7-3E0F compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"J6AX32.0.dO3.4tXgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20568
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Rick Monteverde described something which I too read about, or saw:

     . . . I keep thinking of the video (newsmagazine video, "20/20" or
     something) of the firemen trying to put out an arson fire in the
     Northeast fueled by barrels of home-brewed "rocket fuel" placed in the
     target building. They'd shoot a big spray of water on the core of the
     fire but it resulted in an intense bloom of white-hot flame, causing
     them to back off.

I wondered about this claim too, because at first glance it makes no sense.
There is no net energy release. But I think it makes sense as an energy
transfer mechanism. The water enters the hot flame, vaporizes, and fractures
into H2 and O2 gas. This cools the flame, but it releases a huge cloud of
explosive gas which ignites elsewhere.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 08:08:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16973;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:04:59 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:04:59 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980713110546.00c1fa90 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:05:46 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
In-Reply-To: <199807112305_MC2-52D0-A7D8 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"tGdeA.0.694.P8Ygr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20569
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:01 PM 7/11/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> I do not understand where the two numbers come from here: 285,000 heat of
>formation versus 55,000 from burning. Is the former heat of formation of D2?
>Wouldn't you get both from the outgassing? In any case, even if you did, it
>would make no difference in the context of this experiment. The cathode
>produced megajoules over the entire run, before, during and after the
boil-off
>event.
 
    No, the difference here is due to multiplying the 285,000 per mole by
.39 moles of hydrogen and dividing by 2.  But that is a wrong number. The
heat of formation for hydrogen (and deuterium) gas (H + H --> H2) is the
highest energy per gram of any chemical process.  This may or may not
account for some of the anomalies associated with "cold fusion,"  but it
certainly accounts for many of the difficulties and dangers associated with
hydrogen/deuterium and palladium.

    In the context of this discussion, if you can store elemental hydrogen
in palladium, then release and burn it, you need to account for the energy
of formation of the hydrogen gas, or use a number for the energy of
formation of H2O and subtract the energy of formation of the oxygen
gas--fairly high--from the result.  I don't have those numbers here, there
is probably a page where I can find them on the net.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 08:14:55 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07025;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:05:30 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:05:30 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980713110152.007e2810 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:01:52 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Maoka and Enyo paper
In-Reply-To: <199807131031_MC2-52EA-63BE compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"QGezY2.0.ej1.v8Ygr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20570
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:28 AM 7/13/98 -0400, Jed wrote:

>Mitchell Swartz writes:
>     Having studied electrochemistry, corrosion & corrosion control, and
>     material science at MIT, it is clear Jed's "10^23 atm" calculation
>     report is quite erroneous.  Those in the field are aware of this
>     miscalculation which is off by orders and orders of magnitude.
>
>For the third and last time Mitch: it is NOT my calculation.

  It says it was your "report".  Before it said "translation".
  Simple English, Jed.

   Please try to be accurate, to the degree possible.  And Jed's
accuracy could increase if he doesnt further avoid the science, 
the refs, and the books on this matter. 

 ==================================================================


>You regularly accuse people of "distorting" and getting things wrong.

   Not people, but you Jed.  
  You have distorted the facts, and were caught several times, 
e.g. the positional impact of flow in flow calorimetry. 
You have been caught by others as well, including here on vortex.

   You apparently misquote papers for your own interest, and
perhaps Jed is correct that this is distortion.


 ===================================================================


> For the
>record I have never seen anyone repeatedly distort simple matters of fact the
>way you do.

    Kettle. Stove. Black.
 One need only compare your glossy "Infinite Energy" with its device de jour 
including urine engines, and other dubious devices, 
to either my writings or the "COLD FUSION TIMES" which presents
nuclear, material science, and engineering data, to get a feel of who
distorts, Jed.  The evidence is that the distortions are from Jed, IMO.

 [ BTW Jed's ad hominems have no place on vortex. ]

 ===============================================================

>....you are the first person in
>history to say that a translator is the original author who makes the
>calculations in a paper.

  Nonsense, Jed.  The post did not say that.  More frothing.
Reporters and journalists should take some responsiblity
and scientific care, IMO. 

  Mitchell Swartz



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 08:42:52 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23745;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:39:50 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:39:50 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <00cf01bdae72$e9ebee60$338f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Hazard from water fractured with heat
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:27:06 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"hO9TZ2.0.xo5.4fYgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20571
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com <Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com>
Date: Monday, July 13, 1998 8:45 AM
Subject: Hazard from water fractured with heat

Jed wrote:


>To: Vortex
>
>Rick Monteverde described something which I too read about, or saw:
>
>     . . . I keep thinking of the video (newsmagazine video, "20/20" or
>     something) of the firemen trying to put out an arson fire in the
>     Northeast fueled by barrels of home-brewed "rocket fuel" placed in the
>     target building. They'd shoot a big spray of water on the core of the
>     fire but it resulted in an intense bloom of white-hot flame, causing
>     them to back off.
>
>I wondered about this claim too, because at first glance it makes no sense.
>There is no net energy release. But I think it makes sense as an energy
>transfer mechanism. The water enters the hot flame, vaporizes, and
fractures
>into H2 and O2 gas. This cools the flame, but it releases a huge cloud of
>explosive gas which ignites elsewhere.

Magnesium metal will do this. H2O + Mg ---> H2 + MgO. Then the O2 in the Air
will Oxidize the H2. The Boranes BHx will do the same thing.

Regards,   Frederick
>
>- Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 09:01:23 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26093;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:58:34 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:58:34 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:51:01 -0700
Message-Id: <199807131551.IAA18776 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Entropy?
Resent-Message-ID: <"fQ3tK.0.ZN6.ewYgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20572
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:05:30 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
>[snip]
>>The loss is because you will only have coupled some of the low grade energy
>>back into high grade.  The balance is lost to "heat", ie background thermal
>>energy.
>
>The point I was trying to make, was based on the concept of *only*
>producing radio waves, without any background thermal energy. The
>concept being that in theory at least, I can do work while converting
>heat into radio waves,

Correct, you can do work with high grade energy, and wind up with radio
waves.  But you cannot build a **real** device, and avoid producing any
heat.  And if you did build an ideal device that converted 100 percent of
the energy into radio waves, then in principle you could convert 100 percent
of that energy back into gammas or some higher form of energy.  But, to do
so, you would not have been able to extrect any work if you did, or, upon
converting the energy back into high grade gammas you would have to put the
same work back in.  

Anyway, there is no known device that could accomplish your goal, so until
their is, the idea "entropy", continues to be a useful one.  And, as I can
understand that what is going on is to derive energy from the emission of
aether (from high aether density regions such as particles to low density
regions such as "empty space"), entropy simply becomes a study of the
evaporation of aether in the universe.  

 because radio waves are longer than heat waves.
>Practically, this could perhaps be done out in deep space (or the dark
>side of the moon etc.) where a heat engine could attain close to 100%
>efficiency, by radiating energy away at the temperature of the
>microwave background (i.e. 2.7 K). 

You are increasing the entropy when you radiate away the energy.  ie, you
could tap into the heat energy of the moon, build a super conductor device
to perform such and such a motion, drive a generator and have power.  But,
you are driving heat energy that is high quality at 80K and dumping into a
sink of low quality at 2.7K from which you can't get it back because you
don't have a colder sink, unless you expend work to cool something down
below the CBR.

However because the radiated energy
>is in the form of microwaves, almost all of it can be recaptured and
>reused. 

No.  You don't capture "almost all of it".  Your antenna will only capture
some of it, and the rest goes on to become part of the cbr in a few billion
years as it scatters off of matter in the interstellar medium.


>The *only* reason that heat is seen as low grade, is that we don't
>have a "heat diode". (Well actually we do, they're called solar cells,
>but these are only about 25% efficient at best). 
>What we really need, is a substance that is a strong radio-emitter
>when heated (or even just warmed :).

What makes you think radio waves are easy to capture and derive the energy
from them?  Don't you notice that you can drive all over the place and pick
up the same signal from a radio station?  The radio signal energy spreads
out all over the place.  To capture most of it you would have to build an
antenna that completely surrounds the radio emission, and then you would get
into wierd stuff since electricity would have to move through the thickness
of your metal sphere.


>PS Don't worry Ross, your discourse was not wasted on me, but I want
>to see where this leads before "surrendering".


If you find energy coming out of something that is more than is being put
in, all it means is that energy is going into the system from somewhere you
don't recognize as a source of energy, period.  Now that source might be
induced fission, fusion or other nuclear reactions, it might be tapping into
a standing wave in space, or whatever.  But when the day ends, there will be
a source of energy.  And when we understand the nature of that source, it
will be found that the origin of the energy was in the emission of aether
and the reaction of the aether solitons to that emission.

Simple action reaction, but considering the universe as an ocean, and
tracking the emission of aether out of devices such that their atoms were
accelerated in one manner or another just like little rocket ships.

Go look at all of the posts I have made showing web sites for goo being shot
out of stars right after they ignite and begin spewing aether forth.

Later, Ross Tessien


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 09:13:18 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27667;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:11:42 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:11:42 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980713120832.00c1c880 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:08:32 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Negative Resistance Terminology
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980711214529.0087a100 mail.eden.com>
References: <001b01bdad12$44a93b80$4f4fd3d0 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"LOQfj1.0.9m6.x6Zgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20573
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 09:45 PM 7/11/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>Actually, Mike, according to Ohm's law the resistance of a glow discharge
>is always positive.  It's just that there is a region in which the _slope_
>of the V vs I curve goes negative.  The actual values of R don't go
>negative...just the slope.  There is always a positive voltage drop across
>a glow/arc discharge...at least ordinary ones...<g>
 
   Glow discharge yes, arc no.  An arc is among other things an energy
storage device with variable inductance.  Since the inductance in a pulsed
arc can be pretty high, we had to plan for 10-15 kV insulation, even when
driving the arc at less than a kilovolt.  When the arc collapses, that
energy has to go somewhere, and we prefer to have it go into a capacitor,
rather than into nearby conductors.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 09:22:01 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23909;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:16:01 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:16:01 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980713122042.00c67e90 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:20:42 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980712081515.0088d490 mail.eden.com>
References: <199807112305_MC2-52D0-A7D8 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"evoEb2.0.Qr5.0BZgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20574
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 08:15 AM 7/12/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>If so, it must be the same situation for the burning of H2 and O2, the
>formation of a mole of H2O from separate H and O atoms must produce 285,000
>joules PLUS the 432,000 joules needed to dissociate a mole of H2 PLUS half
>the energy needed to dissoc a mole of O2, no?

   Yep, and that's why you can have a mix of H2 and O2 sitting on the
shelf, as long as you don't expose it to UV. H2 + O2 --> H2O + O is
endothermic.  But get one OH radical floating around, and things start
happening pretty quickly.


                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 09:44:39 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03947;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:42:23 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:42:23 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980713123920.00c6d4e0 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:39:20 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <l03102802b1cf8e03b21c [12.64.35.157]>
References: <3.0.5.32.19980712081515.0088d490 mail.eden.com>
 <199807112305_MC2-52D0-A7D8 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"x264r.0.Wz.fZZgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20575
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 12:25 AM 7/13/98 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote:
>While reading this thread I keep thinking of the video (newsmagazine video,
>"20/20" or something) of the firemen trying to put out an arson fire in the
>Northeast fueled by barrels of home-brewed "rocket fuel" placed in the
>target building. They'd shoot a big spray of water on the core of the fire
>but it resulted in an intense bloom of white-hot flame, causing them to
>back off. The narration explains that the heat from the fuel fire was so
>hot that the water was cracked and then recombined, causing the flare-up.
>They said that you couldn't use water on such a fire because it was like
>spraying fuel on it, and that is exactly what it looked like they were
>doing.
>
>I thought that was strange, since because the crack-recombine reactions
>zeroed out, you'd at least draw out of the source fire the energy required
>to heat that much water to it's eventual phase as superhot water vapor -
>thereby dispersing some heat, part of fire's triangle. But the fire crews
>did back of on that technique, seeing that it did simply appear to burn
>their water. Excess energy, or just video newsmagazine distortion?

   If there is Aluminum, Magnesium, or one of several other metals, what
happens is yes, the water does get dissociated, then (choosing Magnesium
for the example, since the reactions are simpler, you get:

     Mg + H2 --> MgH2
     2Mg + O2 --> 2 MgO
     MgO + H2O --> Mg(OH)2
     MgH2 + O2 --> Hg(OH)2

   Yes, there is excess oxygen in those equations, and in a real fire, you
would have reactions with nitrogen and nitric oxides as well.  But the key
point is that water can convey much more mass of oxidizer to the metal than
air can.  Once you have a magnesium or aluminum fire, even some dry
chemical extinguishers just provide more fuel to the fire.  (CO2
extinguishers are bad as well--they can be like putting out a fire by
pouring on gasoline.  For small fires, you can put them out that way, but
it is NOT recommended.  Sand is always best for such fires.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 10:24:09 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12442;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:22:33 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:22:33 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226
Message-Id: <v03020900b1cfdf632432 [128.183.200.195]>
In-Reply-To: <199807111313_MC2-52C9-2D1E compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:14:53 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
Resent-Message-ID: <"INswm.0.J23.N9agr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20576
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex;

  I have a few comments on some of Jed Rothwell's points.

> As I said, if they had achieved the fabulous energy density
>calculated by Wharton, this form of energy storage would have swept the
>market. Alas, at is physically impossible by a factor of 5 or 10.

Here Jed is claiming my "fabulous" energy density calculation is too high
by only taking the heat of fusion of the hydrogen with oxygen.  My
calculation was based on pressure.  Pressure itself has energy independent
of any chemical potential.  Safety regulations require that tanks of
compressed gas be securely chained down because if they fall down and the
connecting pipe breaks off, the large amount of energy released can be
dangerous.  This was illustrated in the movie Chain Reaction.  This energy
comes just from pressure and not from chemical reactions.
  The correct expression for the energy density of a compressed gas is

  E = P/(G-1)

where E is the energy density, P is the pressure, and G is the ratio of the
specific heat at constant pressure to the specific heat at constant volume.
In my calculation I ignored the (G-1) term and thus underestimated the
energy density a bit.  There is no getting around the fact that pressure
has energy density associated with it.  The cf believers neglect of this
fact is a great error.
  Now Jed has made the observation:

>What rod are we talking about here? The rod in the boil off experiments was
>1.25 cm long, 2 mm in diameter. The volume is 0.039 cm^3. Wharton is off by a
>factor of 100.

That doesn't appear to be a rod to me.  It should have been called a
palladium wire.  So the Palladium wire had a volume 100 times less than I
estimated.  I would agree that my calculation of the energy density from
the pressure is an upper bound. The reason being that the pressure in the
palladium lattice will never equal the value implied by the voltage at
which the rod is being charged.  Since my upper limit of the energy density
was about the energy required but with a volume 100 times too large, then
the heat released during heat after death was at least 100 times too large.
  A factor of 100 is significant.  If there is some paper in which this
experiment is documented then I would like to read it and if there is not
some other great error then I would have to say there is a problem in
accounting for the energy released in the heat after death. My energy
density upper limit calculation is based on the conservation of energy.
The energy density in the palladium lattice cannot exceed the value implied
by the amount of electrical work done in charging up the lattice.  Perhaps
the explanation is that the 1.1 MJ of energy is the value of energy
released both before and after the onset of the heat after death test.  Jed
writes

>The cathode produced megajoules over the entire run, before, during and
>after >the boil-off event.

I can see 1.1 MJ of energy being expended before and during the heat after
death test but not 1.1 MJ being released during boil-off during the heat
after death event.  If the latter is the case, then there is a big problem
in accounting for the amount of energy released.





Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 10:46:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14492;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:38:20 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:38:20 -0700
Message-ID: <19980713173041.21491.rocketmail send1b.yahoomail.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:30:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Room Temperature Superconductor - buffalo doc back up!
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"LoU4H1.0.KY3.BOagr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20577
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Thanks for bringing this up again Horace,

It appears that the buffalo.edu site has the original document posted
again.  The document was un-available friday and over the weekend --
conspiracy theories were starting to brew around here ;)

Reviewing the buffalo.edu article shows how the fibers were prepared:

>In the experiments, two layers of carbon fibers >oriented in
different directions and bound together by >epoxy, Portland cement or
pressure demonstrated >negative resistance as low as -8 ohms for a
contact >area of one square centimeter. (An ohm is a unit that
>measures electrical resistance.) 

This looks like most _any_ cabon-fiber layup should have the same
effect.  Srcew the epoxy and pressure methods --  Portland
Cement......This should be easy to test!!!! I'm guessing that fishing
rods might also be a good test case.


---Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net> wrote:
>
> Gnorts Vorts!
> 
> I have been intensely busy lately, so have been unable to catch up
with
> vortex. In case you missed it, it appears there has been a significant
> discovery.  Like you all, I suspect, I see many really good ways to
use
> this new capability.
> 
> The press announcement URL is (as of Sunday, July 12):
> http://www.buffalo.edu/news/Latest/searchindex/ChungResistance.html
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 

==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 10:53:10 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18422;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:47:05 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:47:05 -0700
Message-ID: <19980713173833.28415.rocketmail send1b.yahoomail.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:38:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Reducing Friction with Oscillations
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"TtyCB3.0.eV4.OWagr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20578
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Rick/All,

Being and avid cyclist and gearhead,  am trying to imagine how to
apply this to chains, hubs, tires, and bottom brackets......

Good point with avalanches....next hike in the high country -- will
have to remember to jump up and down out of phase with the avalanche
oscillations to slow it down!  ;)  Should increase friction....right?


---Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> Anton -
> 
>    >  [...] the findings would be of particular interest
>    >  to designers of micro-scale machines.
> 
> ...and to those not wanting to get buried under avalanches. The
chaotic
> mass of particles causes rock slides to go much further than you'd
expect.
> Probably works with mud, snow, etc.
> 
>   - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
> 
> 
> 

==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 11:35:47 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA27226;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:23:30 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:23:30 -0700
Message-ID: <010901bdae8a$d5b87f40$338f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>, <llano5@earthlink.net>
Subject: WARNING!
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:19:36 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"AOUtQ2.0.If6.X2bgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20579
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Re; Frank S' "Stinkfinger"

El Nino causing a corncob shortage, Frank? :-)

Here in the west the cactus has been called into use in a pinch (so to
speak). I think the word, YUCCA! came from
such use, later anglicized to YAHOO!

Regards,   Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 11:35:48 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29456;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:29:21 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:29:21 -0700
From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
Message-Id: <v03007805b1d00c5f85a7 [198.133.146.230]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:30:56 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Resent-Message-ID: <"nURo01.0.7C7.08bgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20580
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Robert Stirniman stated that the electromagnetic (EM) field of a magnetic
dipole contains a longitudinal propagating field, and he went on to make
some other comments. I wish to make a few comments.

1. Let me begin by writing out the important parts of the EM field
generated by an oscillating magnetic dipole. The radial or longitudinal
component of B (or H; it makes no difference here) varies in space and time
as

  2 cos(theta) [(jkr)^-2  + (jkr)^-3] exp[-j(kr - wt)]

The usual transverse B component points in the theta or poloidal direction
and  varies as

  sin(theta) [(jkr)^-1 +(jkr)^-2  + (jkr)^-3] exp[-j(kr - wt)]

The transverse electric field E points in the phi or azimuthal direction
and varies as

  sin(theta) [(jkr)^-2  + (jkr)^-3] exp[-j(kr - wt)].

Note that the fields of magnetic and electric dipoles are the duals of each
other, as are the two sources. Therefore, all conclusions obtained for one
kind of dipole and its generated fields are the same for the other.

2. Robert correctly points out that the EM field contains a propagating
longitudinal (radial) B component, and that the longitudinal B field is not
divergenceless. However, it is equally true that the TRANSVERSE (theta)
magnetic field ALSO IS NOT DIVERGENCELESS. In fact, div B_longitudinal = -
div B_transverse, which makes the TOTAL  B field divergenceless, as
required in charge-free space by the Maxwell equations. The longitudinal B
cannot exist alone, nor can the transverse, because NEITHER ONE ALONE
satisfies all the Maxwell equations. However, the WHOLE  B and E field
exists together as one EM field DO satisfy Maxwell's equations.
Furthermore, all parts of this field propagate together, as exp[-j(kr -
wt)].

It is important to know that, just because we have several algebraic terms
does not mean that any one term alone is physically possible. Consider a
loose analogy: A temperature of 300 kelvin can be written as 900 K minus
600 K, but this does not mean that -600 K is a physical temperature.

3. Elaborating still more, the B  lines in charge-free space can neither
begin nor end. If you think about the B_theta lines of a spherical
transverse EM wave, you realize that they would "collide" and anihilate at
the polar axis. However, this is not permitted, by div B = 0. Therefore,
the B lines bend around radially as they approach the axis and then
continue unbroken in the opposite theta (transverse) direction as part of
the next half wave behind. The B lines form closed loops, something like
rubber bands, that propagate outward at speed c = w/k. The long sides of
the rubber bands correspond to the theta (transverse) part of the field.
The ends of the rubber bands correspond to the radaial (longitudinal) part
of the field, where the unbroken magnetic lines bend around and continue in
the opposite transverse direction. Not many books have good pictures of
this any more. The only one I can cite is Markus Zahn, "Electromagnetic
Field Theory," Wiley & Sons 1979. The figure and other good discussion are
in Chapt. 9. The B loops encircle azimuthal rings of E.

4. No one is hiding the existence of longitudinal components. Antenna
engineers and physicists, to name two examples, know about them. Plane
waves are an idealization. All EM waves are launched from some finite
source and hence, are not planar. For that matter, dipole sources are an
idealization, too. Plane waves are a useful simplification, both for
teaching and for discussion of many practical situations where nonplanarity
is not important. One should not be surprised when waves in different
geometrical limits posess a few different features. Real antennas are often
more directional than dipoles, and they also generate waves that have
longitudinal components, particularly near the beam edges.

5. The r^-3 magnetic terms are the "static" dipole, except that it
propagates outward with the same speed c = w/k as the other components.

6. Stirniman's r^-2  B_r and E_phi terms multiply together to contribute a
theta component to the Poynting vector, specifically EM energy flowing from
the equator toward the poles. However, when the full Poynting vector is
calculated, other terms cancel this poleward flow exactly. The COMPLETE
Poynting vector has ONLY a radial energy flow, and it is proportional to

  (sin theta)^2  (kr)^-2

and nothing more, whether NEAR OR FAR from the source. This is the usual
1/r^2. The time averaged energy flow contributions from all the higher
power terms cancel each other in the complete, physical wave. (I calculated
all this out again for myself, just to be sure.)

7. The EM fields hide nothing strange. The longitudinal electric field is
not new; it is simply the result of the transverse B (or E, in the case of
an electric dipole) bending around near the poles, in order to satisfy
divergence = 0. The longitudinal and transverse components exist together
and propagate together, because both are essential components of a single
EM wave. ONe cannot exist without the other. In particular, it is not
necessary to postulate any new physics with the longitudinal electric
field. As far as I know, the longitudinal field has little application, but
it influences the antenna impedance.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 11:36:40 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29968;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:31:21 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:31:21 -0700
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:28:10 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807131430_MC2-52FC-15F8 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"7RcX32.0.7K7.u9bgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20581
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; Larry Wharton >INTERNET:wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

Hello Larry! How nice to see you respond to a critique, for once. You wrote:

     Here Jed is claiming my "fabulous" energy density calculation is too
     high by only taking the heat of fusion of the hydrogen with oxygen.  My
     calculation was based on pressure.

Whatever it is based on it must be wrong, because you have concluded that a
hydride holds much more energy than gasoline. If that's true you have made a
fantastic discovery that will make you world famous overnight. NASA would love
to have this chemical fuel.


     If there is some paper in which this experiment is documented then I
     would like to read it . . .

Yeah, that's a good idea. See M. Fleischmann, S. Pons, "Calorimetry of the
Pd-D2O system: from simplicity via complications to simplicity," Physics
Letters A, 176 (1993) 118-129.


     . . . and if there is not some other great error then I would have to
     say there is a problem in accounting for the energy released in the heat
     after death.

Either that, or the heat is real, and there is no problem. Did that ever occur
to you? I mean, if you are positive there must be error going in, and you read
the paper intending to find it, you are bound to think you have found an
error. You cannot objectively evaluate a paper if you have firmly made up your
mind it must be wrong before you read it.


     My energy density upper limit calculation is based on the conservation
     of energy. The energy density in the palladium lattice cannot exceed the
     value implied by the amount of electrical work done in charging up the
     lattice.

Ha! That's funny. It cannot even come close. When you charge a cathode over a
long period, say one day, 99.9999% of the gas that goes into the lattice comes
right out again. There is no measurable energy storage. The most sensitive
calorimeter on earth would shows the balance of energy is virtually zero. The
electrical work done charging up the lattice is expended immediately, as the
lattice continually deloads and the energy leaves the cell in free H2 gas.
Charging is measurably endothermic for the first hour or so up until the Beta
phase is reached. After that, we are talking picojoules per hour increases in
energy storage, as the process struggles to boost loading from 60% to 85% over
days or weeks.

I repeat, the maximum loading of any palladium cathode is 1 atom of deuterium
for each atom of palladium. Therefore, a 0.0044 mole sample of Pd can hold
0.044 moles of deuterium maximum. A few researchers have reported loadings
slightly exceeding unity, like 104% loading, but most electrochemists I have
spoken with believe these readings are in error. Measuring loading is
difficult and inexact.


     I can see 1.1 MJ of energy being expended before and during the heat
     after death test but not 1.1 MJ being released during boil-off during
     the heat after death event.  If the latter is the case, then there is a
     big problem in accounting for the amount of energy released.

Yeah, well, that particular cathode produced 128.5 kJ in heat after death. Add
to that the excess heat before death, which continued about a week, and you
get MJ levels. Some CF cells have produced 20 MJ, and some have produced 200
MJ excess, including MJ levels in heat after death, continuous boiling events
and so on. 128.5 kJ may not sound like much, but as Pons and Fleischmann say,
this equates to "3.28 MJ cm^-3 or 29 MJ (mole Pd)^1," which "exceeds by a
factor of 10^2 - 10^3 that of any conceivable chemical process." (From their
paper "Heat after Death.") There is no problem accounting for the energy
released. It is caused by a mysterious new reaction called cold fusion. It is
only a "problem" is for skeptics. As Martin Fleischmann put it:

     The fact that cells containing palladium and palladium alloy cathodes
     polarised in D20 solutions stay at high temperatures after they have
     been driven to such extremes of excess enthalpy generation *does not
     present us* with any difficulties.  It is certainly possible to choose
     conditions which also lead to "boiling to dryness" in "blank cells" but
     such cells cool down immediately after such "boiling to dryness".  If
     there are any difficulties in our observations, then these are surely in
     the province of those seeking explanations in terms of "Chemical
     Effects" for "Cold Fusion".

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 12:06:07 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08302;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:01:17 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:01:17 -0700
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:01:31 -0700
X-Intended-For: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-Id: <199807131901.MAA06829 slave3.aa.net>
X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: humour on negative R
Resent-Message-ID: <"KDTRe.0.Y12.ybbgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20582
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>Dear Colleague,
>
>Attached is public release of our new discovery at UB. Hope will take your
attention. 

Dear Sir,

        I would like to order several of your Negative Resistance Series
Resistors.  I would like to pay for them with negative credit.  Will there
be any problem with that? -Knuke  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 12:37:05 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16046;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:29:38 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:29:38 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980713143100.00caa1f8 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:31:00 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: humour on negative R
In-Reply-To: <199807131901.MAA06829 slave3.aa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"zCrAX1.0.aw3.W0cgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20583
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 12:01 7/13/98 -0700, Michael T Huffman wrote:

>Dear Sir,
>
>        I would like to order several of your Negative Resistance Series
>Resistors.  I would like to pay for them with negative credit.  Will there
>be any problem with that? -Knuke  

Hey, I'll pay negative CASH...!


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 15:16:45 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10125;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:01:58 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:01:58 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35AA8308.199D ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:58:32 -0700
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Neg. resistance - LA Times
References: <199807131153.HAA15283 mercury.mv.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"MGtXQ2.0.-T2.IFegr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20584
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

July 14, 1998

Vortex,

A bit of trivia.

E.F. Mallove quotes:
> 
> L.A. Times, July 10, 1998:
> 
> Experts Scoff at Claim of Electricity Flowing With 'Negative Resist ---

The printed newspaper of that date did not have the news item. I
backtracked and examined every page, wondering why I missed it. It was
not in the Thursday edition that carries a Science File. Nor was there
anything on Saturday. 

The item only appeared in the LA Times webpage.

-ak-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 15:56:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23308;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:51:24 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:51:24 -0700
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <b2269974.35aa85b6 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:09:57 EDT
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, GeorgeHM@aol.com, 76570.2270@compuserve.com,
        editor infinite-energy.com, 72240.1256@compuserve.com,
        zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, fstenger@interlaced.net,
        101544.702 compuserve.com, RVargo1062@aol.com,
        peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, reed@zenergy.com,
        tkepple hotmail.com, JEFFJ@ep.state.az.us, jewel@sgi.net,
        marc.g.millis lerc.nasa.gov, herman@antioch-college.edu,
        barry math.ucla.edu, jayneg@grove.iup.edu, matolyak@grove.iup.edu,
        bssimon helix.ucsd.edu, david.noever@msfc.nasa.gov,
        claytor_t_n lanl.gov, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, pnp@ornl.gov, mjs@ap.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: The vibration of a superconductor
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38
Resent-Message-ID: <"x6MVV1.0.5i5.hzegr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20585
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

My patent for the "vibration of a superconductor" for the production of
electrical energy has been on file since last September.  It is fundamental to
the discovery at the University of Buffalo.  I called my partners on the
project, which had fallen to the wayside, and advised them, "It's time to move
on it."  I hope for the best.
..........................................................

The press announcement URL is (as of Sunday, July 12):
http://www.buffalo.edu/news/Latest/searchindex/ChungResistance.html



CARBON COMPOSITES SUPERCONDUCT AT ROOM TEMPERATURE


SUPERCONDUCTION AT ROOM TEMPERATURE: NEGATIVE ELECTRICAL RESISTANCE
SEEN IN CARBON COMPOSITES



LAS VEGAS -- Materials engineers at the University at Buffalo have
made two discoveries that have enabled carbon-fiber materials to
superconduct at room temperature.

The related discoveries were so unexpected that the researchers at
first thought that they were mistaken.

Led by Deborah D.L. Chung, Ph.D., UB professor of mechanical and
aerospace engineering, the engineers observed negative electrical
resistance in carbon-composite materials, and zero resistance when
these materials were combined with others that are conventional,
positive resistors.

Their observation of zero resistance is the first time that this has
been seen without cooling.  Zero resistance has been seen in
superconducting materials, but only at temperatures of 125 degrees
Kelvin, about -150 degrees Centigrade or -234 degrees Fahrenheit.

Without resistance, there is no energy loss, so the amount of energy
that is put into a system is exactly the amount that it produces.

According to the researchers, the discovery has the potential to lead
to much faster, far- more-efficient electronic devices, previously
assumed to be possible only with the development of room-temperature
superconductors. Potential applications include much-simpler,
more-powerful electronic circuits in computers and far-more-efficient
"smart" structural components for aircraft and concrete structures.

The research was presented here today (July 9, 1998) in a keynote
address at the fifth International Conference on Composites
Engineering by Chung, who holds the Niagara Mohawk Chair in Materials
Research at UB.

"We have achieved zero resistance without cooling and without a
superconducting material," said Chung.

"With structural electronics, the structural composite itself can act
as the electrical circuitry, but the fibers in the composite are far
less conductive than copper.  Our research shows that it is possible
to overcome that resistance and make these structural electronics far
more efficient," she said.

This finding of negative resistance flies in the face of a fundamental
law of physics: Opposites attract.

Chung explained that in conventional systems, the application of
voltage causes electrons -- which carry a negative charge -- to move
toward the high, or positive end, of the voltage gradient.

But in this case, the electrons move the other way, from the plus end
of the voltage gradient to the minus end.

"In this case, opposites appear not to attract," said Chung.
The researchers are studying how this effect could be possible.

Chung, working with Shoukai Wang, a UB doctoral candidate in
mechanical and aerospace engineering, made the discovery while
conducting research on the intrinsic electrical properties of carbon
composites related to developing "smart materials," in which she has
played a leading role.

Chung explained that it is the unusually high pressure used to cure
the carbon-epoxy composite that appears to be responsible for the
finding.

 "We were looking at the effect of curing pressure on the junction
between carbon-fiber layers, and were making electrical measurements
of the interface," she said.  "When we saw the negative resistance at
the interface, we didn't believe it for quite a few months.  But after
checking and rechecking our connections, using different meters over a
period of time and observing the continuous change of resistance from
positive to zero and then to negative values during curing, we came to
realize that what we were seeing was truly negative resistance."

According to Chung, an unknown mechanism must be at work that is being
triggered by sufficient contact between the layers of carbon fibers.

In the experiments, two layers of carbon fibers oriented in different
directions and bound together by epoxy, Portland cement or pressure
demonstrated negative resistance as low as -8 ohms for a contact area
of one square centimeter. (An ohm is a unit that measures electrical
resistance.)

The researchers noted that absolute zero resistance can be achieved
when the values of positive and negative resistors connected in series
match exactly.

"It's a matter of tailoring them to make them exactly the same," said
Chung.

A patent application has been filed on the invention.  Previous
patents filed by other researchers on negative resistance have been
limited to very narrow ranges of the voltage gradient.

In contrast, the UB researchers have exhibited negative resistance
that does not vary throughout the entire gamut of the voltage
gradient.

Companies that are interested in technical information on the
invention should contact the UB Office of Technology Transfer at
716-645-3811 or by e-mail at <lohrman research.buffalo.edu>.
_____________________________________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 19:14:51 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20080;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:11:47 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:11:47 -0700
Message-Id: <199807140208.WAA27674 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Preliminary Minato Report
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 22:16:07 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"JhLB42.0.gv4.Yvhgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20586
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Vortexians:

I have received a preliminary report from Hal Fox regarding his trip to 
Mexico City to see the demo of the Minato Motors. The demo(s) did occur 
and there were many companies there to observe. Hal has asked me NOT to 
publish his preliminary report -- until the Minato people have had a 
chance to react to it. He said I could give you this brief note, however, 
which doesn't tell you much, I admit.

Basically, as one would have expected, the report is a mixed bag -- both 
positives and negatives. No knockout blow either way. As soon as I can 
tell you more, I will.

Best, Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 19:31:08 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23710;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:18:35 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:18:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brendan Hall" <brendan mackayallen.com.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: apology
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:20:51 +1000
Message-ID: <000d01bdaece$08117620$2664a8c0 pc038---brendan>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0
In-Reply-To: <199807122238_MC2-52EA-492C compuserve.com>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"98Ami2.0.Oo5.v_hgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20587
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Scott Little wrote:

     Jed, I would like to apologize publically for calling you Frothwell.
It
     was rather childish of me.

Jed Rothwell wrote:

     I thought it was pretty funny. I was trying to think of a good riposte,
but
     it's tough to find a word that rhymes with "Little." Fiddle? Spittle?


It's good to see that there is some mutual respect between these two
parties.  So,
Scott and Jed, how about this:

There once was a tall man, Scott Little,
Who apologised for jokes he thought brittle
Jed Rothwell's reply
Was not one in the eye
But his riposte was more an acquittal

Brendan Hall



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 21:22:21 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12503;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:14:33 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:14:33 -0700
Message-ID: <007c01bdaedd$5cc287e0$e7b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>, <llano5@earthlink>net
Subject: OFF TOPIC, Deformed Frogs , Asthma Near Epidemic and Oxygenated Fuels.
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:10:32 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"HgPxm.0.C33.fijgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20588
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Hate to bring this up, but there is something going on here. Correlate the
incidence of the deformed frogs, the epidemiology of the increase in asthma
or asthma-like respiratory
disorders and the use of OXYGENATED FUELS for replacing Leaded Gasoline
OCTANE BOOSTERS.

MTBE, ETHANOL, and METHANOL, all are WATER SOLUBLE and can produce WATER
SOLUBLE ALDEHYDES
when burned.

Frogs breathe through their skin. OUR BRONCHIAL TUBES and LUNGS are SKIN.

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 21:23:00 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13319;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:18:33 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:18:33 -0700
Message-ID: <006701bdaeda$e8391300$e7b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <llano5 earthlink.net>
Subject: Deformed Frogs (http://a51half.com/frog.html)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:51:28 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01BDAEA8.63DE6560"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"95005.0.0G3.Pmjgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20589
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BDAEA8.63DE6560
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=20
Deformed frogs, no big deal you say? Guess again buddy! Back in 1995 a =
few students who attend the New Country School in LeSueur, Minnesota =
were out catching frogs in the local wet lands when they discovered that =
something wasn't quite right with the frogs they were catching. At first =
they thought they had injured the poor little guys because their legs =
appeared to be broken but when nearly every frog they caught had the =
same condition they realized something was terribly wrong. Soon after =
the initial discovery of the deformed amphibians the students informed =
the MPCA (Minnesota Pollution Control Agency) who began investigating =
the phenomenon. Large populations of deformed amphibians have since been =
discovered in many states including Wisconsin, California, and even up =
into Canada with some areas of frog populations bieing 96% effected, =
This is definitely a reason to be concerned but alarmed residents in =
these areas are being told not to panic. People in effected areas are =
being given bottled water to drink and are being advised not to drink =
tap water until it can be determined if it is safe.(probably a good =
idea)=20

 The malformations range from adult frogs who still have their tails =
which normally would have been shed while maturing from the tadpole =
stage, to frogs with missing eyeballs, eyeballs growing in their =
throats, missing limbs, and even extra limbs with some frogs having as =
many as twelve legs! These deformities have been determined not to be =
genetic but are believed to be caused by either chemical contaminants or =
some other form of pollution in the water.The EPA (Environmental =
Protection Agency), the National Institute of Environmental health =
Sciences, and the National Wildlife Health Center Laboratories are =
currently in a joint effort to find out exactly what is causing the =
problem and to determine the best way to solve it.=20

Unlike humans, frogs breath through their skin, are extremely sensitive =
to chemical pollution, and are actually acting as an early warning =
system for us. We probably wont be seeing these same deformities =
occurring in humans because we don't spend most of our lives in wet =
lands submerged in polluted water (most of us anyway), nor do we breath =
through our skin, although we should take these warnings seriously and =
once we can discover the cause of the problem, prevent it from spreading =
and happening again (if its not too late already). If you have seen =
deformed frogs in your area you can help by filling out this report =
survey brought to you by the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, this =
will alert researchers to the problem. Check out the poor little buggers =
live with deformed froggy cam a state of the art deformed frog =
survaliance system!=20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
back to the World of the Weird and Bizarre=20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

=20

------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BDAEA8.63DE6560
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>Deformed Frogs</TITLE><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://a51half.com/frog.html>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY aLink=3D#00ee00 bgColor=3D#000000 text=3D#ffffff vLink=3D#00ee00>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<CENTER>
<CENTER><IMG align=3Dcenter src=3D"images/frogtitle.jpg"> </CENTER>
<P>Deformed frogs, no big deal you say? Guess again buddy! Back in 1995 =
a few=20
students who attend the New Country School in LeSueur, Minnesota were =
out=20
catching frogs in the local wet lands when they discovered that =
something wasn't=20
quite right with the frogs they were catching. At first they thought =
they had=20
injured the poor little guys because their legs appeared to be broken =
but when=20
nearly every frog they caught had the same condition they realized =
something was=20
terribly wrong.<IMG align=3Dright src=3D"images/frog2.jpg"> Soon after =
the initial=20
discovery of the deformed amphibians the students informed the MPCA =
(Minnesota=20
Pollution Control Agency) who began investigating the phenomenon. Large=20
populations of deformed amphibians have since been discovered in many =
states=20
including Wisconsin, California, and even up into Canada with some areas =
of frog=20
populations bieing 96% effected, This is definitely a reason to be =
concerned but=20
alarmed residents in these areas are being told not to panic. People in =
effected=20
areas are being given bottled water to drink and are being advised not =
to drink=20
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.chron.com/content/interactive/special/water/07/water/w=
ater-enforcement-mon.2-2.html">tap=20
water</A> until it can be determined if it is safe.(probably a good =
idea)=20
</P><IMG align=3Dleft src=3D"images/frog1.jpg"> The malformations range =
from adult=20
frogs who still have their tails which normally would have been shed =
while=20
maturing from the tadpole stage, to frogs with missing eyeballs, =
eyeballs=20
growing in their throats, missing limbs, and even extra limbs with some =
frogs=20
having as many as twelve legs! These deformities have been determined =
not to be=20
genetic but are believed to be caused by either chemical contaminants or =
some=20
other form of pollution in the water.The EPA (Environmental Protection =
Agency),=20
<IMG align=3Dright src=3D"images/frog4.jpg">the National Institute of =
Environmental=20
health Sciences, and the National Wildlife Health Center Laboratories =
are=20
currently in a joint effort to find out exactly what is causing the =
problem and=20
to determine the best way to solve it.=20
<P></P>Unlike humans, frogs breath through their skin, are extremely =
sensitive=20
to chemical pollution, and are actually acting as an early warning =
system for=20
us. We probably wont be seeing these same deformities occurring in =
humans=20
because we don't spend most of our lives in wet lands submerged in =
polluted=20
water (most of us anyway), nor do we breath through our skin, although =
we should=20
take these warnings seriously and once we can discover the cause of the =
problem,=20
prevent it from spreading and happening again (if its not too late =
already). If=20
you have seen deformed frogs in your area you can help by filling out <A =

href=3D"http://www.pca.state.mn.us/hot/frogsurvey.shtml">this report =
survey=20
</A>brought to you by the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, this will =
alert=20
researchers to the problem. Check out the poor little buggers live with =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.pca.state.mn.us/hot/frogcam.shtml">deformed froggy =
cam </A>a=20
state of the art deformed frog survaliance system!=20
<P></P>
<HR>
<A href=3D"wierdness.html">back to the World of the Weird and Bizarre =
</A>
<HR>

<CENTER>
<CENTER><A href=3D"area51.html"><IMG align=3Dcenter border=3D0=20
src=3D"images/home.jpg"></A> </CENTER></CENTER></CENTER></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BDAEA8.63DE6560--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 21:42:39 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13218;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:26:56 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:26:56 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <006801bdaeda$ea383e60$e7b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <llano5 earthlink.net>
Subject: MTBE ALERT (http://www.sedd.org/flash3.htm)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:52:54 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Content-Type: multipart/related;
	type="multipart/alternative";
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0059_01BDAEA8.97227B00"
Resent-Message-ID: <"7_Koe1.0.SE3.Eujgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20590
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0059_01BDAEA8.97227B00
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_001_005A_01BDAEA8.97227B00"


------=_NextPart_001_005A_01BDAEA8.97227B00
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable





MTBE'S THREAT MUST BE CONTROLLED
    Last year, legislation was signed into law to authorize the =
University of California to study methyl tertiary butyl ether (MTBE). =
MTBE is the oxygenate which was added to California gasoline in an =
attempt to clean the air. Instead, MTBE has polluted the water, made =
people ill, and damaged our cars.=20

    On February 19, a new bill was introduced to address MTBE> Senate =
Bill 1926 places liability for cleanup of water contaminated by MTBE and =
for health care costs because of symptoms related to MTBE exposure on =
the manufacturers of MTBE, the product that contains MTBE offered for =
sale in California, and the owner and operator of the storage tanks and =
pipelines that contain MTBE.=20

    Senate Bill 1926 provides funds to test private wells for MTBE. =
Wells should be tested to stop further contamination.=20

    Senate Bill 1926 gives industry the flexibility to produce gasoline =
without oxygenates, giving flexibility to meet emission requirements =
without MTBE. Senate Bill 1926 also requires that any substance that is =
very soluble in water be tested and determined to be safe to the =
environment and to humans before use. Chemicals should be adequately =
tested before their introduction.=20

    MTBE has been found in drinking water including wells across the =
State; in both private wells and public wells. MTBE has also been found =
in many reservoirs and lakes from Mt. Shasta in the north to Lake Tahoe =
in the east and Lake Havasu in the south. MTBE has also been found in =
the Sacramento-San Joaquin Delta.=20

    Although SB 1926 has not yet been assigned to a committee, letters =
of support are beginning to flow into the Capitol. As with SB 521, it =
will take letters of support from thousands of Californians to move this =
bill forward.=20

    The use of MTBE was a tragic mistake, which will haunt California =
for years to come.=20


------------------------------------------------------------------------ =
      =20

        Return to Main Page | Return to Alert Page
       =20
       =20
        This information was taken from a letter by
        Richard L. Mountjoy, Senator, Twenty-ninth Senatorial District.

------=_NextPart_001_005A_01BDAEA8.97227B00
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>MTBE ALERT</TITLE><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC =
"-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN"><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://www.sedd.org/flash3.htm>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY aLink=3D#ff99ff =
background=3Dcid:004f01bdaeda$e1151240$e7b4bfa8 default=20
bgColor=3D#99ccff link=3D#33ffff text=3D#ffff66 vLink=3D#3366ff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<CENTER><IMG height=3D100 =
src=3D"cid:004c01bdaeda$e0f38080$e7b4bfa8 default"=20
width=3D500></CENTER>
<CENTER>
<H3><U>MTBE'S THREAT MUST BE CONTROLLED</U></H3></CENTER>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
    <H4><I>
    <P>Last year, legislation was signed into law to authorize the =
University of=20
    California to study </I><U>methyl tertiary butyl ether</U> =
(MTBE).<I> MTBE=20
    is the oxygenate which was added to California gasoline in an =
attempt to=20
    clean the air. Instead, MTBE has polluted the water, made people =
ill, and=20
    damaged our cars.=20
    <P>On February 19, a new bill was introduced to address MTBE&gt; =
Senate Bill=20
    1926 places liability for cleanup of water contaminated by MTBE and =
for=20
    health care costs because of symptoms related to MTBE exposure on =
the=20
    manufacturers of MTBE, the product that contains MTBE offered for =
sale in=20
    California, and the owner and operator of the storage tanks and =
pipelines=20
    that contain MTBE.=20
    <P>Senate Bill 1926 provides funds to test private wells for MTBE. =
Wells=20
    should be tested to stop further contamination.=20
    <P>Senate Bill 1926 gives industry the flexibility to produce =
gasoline=20
    without oxygenates, giving flexibility to meet emission requirements =
without=20
    MTBE. Senate Bill 1926 also requires that any substance that is very =
soluble=20
    in water be tested and determined to be safe to the environment and =
to=20
    humans before use. Chemicals should be adequately tested before =
their=20
    introduction.=20
    <P>MTBE has been found in drinking water including wells across the =
State;=20
    in both private wells and public wells. MTBE has also been found in =
many=20
    reservoirs and lakes from Mt. Shasta in the north to Lake Tahoe in =
the east=20
    and Lake Havasu in the south. MTBE has also been found in the =
Sacramento-San=20
    Joaquin Delta.=20
    <P>Although SB 1926 has not yet been assigned to a committee, =
letters of=20
    support are beginning to flow into the Capitol. As with SB 521, it =
will take=20
    letters of support from thousands of Californians to move this bill =
forward.=20
   =20
    <P>The use of MTBE was a tragic mistake, which will haunt California =
for=20
    years to come. </I></H4>
    <BLOCKQUOTE>
        <HR>

        <CENTER><A href=3D"index.htm">Return to Main Page</A> | <A=20
        href=3D"flash.htm">Return to Alert Page</A></CENTER><BR>
        <CENTER>
        <H5>This information was taken from a letter by<BR>Richard L. =
Mountjoy,=20
        Senator, Twenty-ninth Senatorial=20
District.</H5></CENTER></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_001_005A_01BDAEA8.97227B00--

------=_NextPart_000_0059_01BDAEA8.97227B00
Content-Type: image/jpeg
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-ID: <004c01bdaeda$e0f38080$e7b4bfa8 default>
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==

------=_NextPart_000_0059_01BDAEA8.97227B00
Content-Type: image/gif
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-ID: <004f01bdaeda$e1151240$e7b4bfa8 default>
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------=_NextPart_000_0059_01BDAEA8.97227B00--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 23:19:46 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA00573;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:11:26 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:11:26 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:04:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: knagel cnct.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980712145924.00897ae8 cnct.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980713225903.29312B-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"ao72z3.0.t8.CQlgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20591
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Sun, 12 Jul 1998, Keith Nagel wrote:

[snip]

> >
> 
> Ok. But really, the whole point of this thing is to share ideas.
> 
> K.
> 

 
 Keith,
 
 Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I was out of town for
 a bit. 
 
 Below is the record I have of your contribution over the vortex
 listserver to the subject of Sansbury's experiment: 
 
 ------------------------cut here-------------------------------
 
 From knagel cnct.com Sun Nov 2 15:25:09 1997
 To: vortex-l eskimo.com
 From: Keith Nagel <knagel cnct.com>
 Subject: Re: Time reversed ...Light pulse experiment request
 Mime-Version: 1.0
 Resent-Message-ID: <"2YaGL1.0.vi5.HxFNq" mx1>
 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
 Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
 X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/12279
 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
 Precedence: list
 Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
 
           [TEXT REFORMATTED for File Format Standardization]
 
 Greetings one and all: 
 
 A remarkable experiment; I used to do work for a gentleman who was
 obsessive on this topic; we did a great deal of work along these
 lines in the radio range where the wavelengths are long enough
 that the group velocity could be adequately distinguished from the
 phase velocity. Can't say as I ever did try active snubbing of the
 detector, although in practice it represents no difficulty. 
 
  My understanding of this is that the overall energy dissipated in
 the photodiode is a function of the time the pockles cell shutter
 is open; the counterintuitive part being that the energy changes
 with shutter closure time before the light speed delayed arrival
 of the pulse.  Yes?  So the measurement does not show direct
 superluminal signalling, rather an indirect effect which is
 resolved only after arrival of the energy bearing pulse. 
 Superluminal hindsight :-) 
 
 Odviously, one would like to see the actual voltage across the
 50ohm sense resistor on the diode, has this been published? 
 Excuse my ignorance, but who is Sansbury? 
 
 Also, what is the degree of isolation between C and H for paths
 outside CBADEFH? 
 
 Keith
 
 PS :  Your com file made my NT3.51 station a bit woozy, in the
 interest of cross platform compatibility I am taking the liberty
 of reposting Jims diagram as a GIF image. 
 
            -----------------end record-----------------------
 
 This is presented for your review as to completeness. My reply to
 this at the time was that I was unable to comment further due to
 patent considerations belonging to Sansbury , who I am assisting. 
 
 I will reply to your more recent response to my inquiry in a
 subsequent email-
 
 Thank you. 
 
 Jim Ostrowski
 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 13 23:20:30 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA00569;
	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:14:45 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:14:45 -0700
Message-ID: <19980714061339.13575.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:13:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: The vibration of a superconductor
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"SipEu1.0.j8.KTlgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20592
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Holy SH T!  Your title sparked an idea.  If oscillations reduce
mechanical friction [see article I posted earlier on oscillations and
friction] -- what do they do to electrical friction/resistance?  Is it
possible to take nomal conductors/semiconductors, and decrease the
resistance by applying vibration?  Could this be another way to
room-temp SCs?


Just an idea....any thoughts? [it's late, and I'm having problems
sleeping....]



---FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:
>
> My patent for the "vibration of a superconductor" for the production
of
> electrical energy has been on file since last September.  It is
fundamental to
> the discovery at the University of Buffalo.  I called my partners on
the
> project, which had fallen to the wayside, and advised them, "It's
time to move
> on it."  I hope for the best.
> 
==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 02:14:36 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA23855;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:09:08 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:09:08 -0700
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:07:35 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: the Minato, John Berry's mesg.
In-Reply-To: <35A74CDB.AFEC139D ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980714100716.121B-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"AryNX.0.fq5.p0ogr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20593
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Thanks,

Looking at your response.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 02:42:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA22514;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:32:15 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:32:15 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:23:01 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: the Minato, John Berry's mesg.
In-Reply-To: <35A74CDB.AFEC139D ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980714102104.121C-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"4RSHh3.0.eV5.SMogr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20594
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John,

Try to formulate these ideas. Text is long and ambiguous. SHow the old 
laws and then the new or how people misinterpret the old. I still don't 
see how your beating Faraday's/Lenz's law.

Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 04:50:32 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA01347;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 04:49:28 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 04:49:28 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <00c701bdaf1b$e2e6db80$e7b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>, <llano5@earthlink.net>
Subject: Carbon Monoxide, Aldehydes, Organic Acids, and Respiratory Effects.
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 05:38:03 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"7Fn_s2.0.zK.6Nqgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20595
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

The byproducts of burning carbon can form
organic species that are deleterious to
health.

For instance carbon monoxide, CO can react with
water on the lining of the respiratory passages and form Formic Acid: CO +
H2O ---> H-CO-OH the
stuff that puts the sting in insect bites.

I would assume that this can cause inflammation
of the tissue.

Other combustion byproducts are the Radicals, R: H*, CH3*,C2H5, and the
benzyl Radical, C6H5*
that can be carcinogenic.

These can form Aldehydes R-CHO: Formaldehyde,H-CHO, Acetaldehyde CH3-CHO,
and Benzaldehyde C6H5-CHO which are also tissue irritants, and can pickle
you long before you are ready to be embalmed.

On top of all of this, in the presence of NOx
or Ammonia, NH3, the Carboxylic Acids R-CO-OH formed can produce Amino
Acids-Proteins that are known to produce Allergic reactions.

Given the water solubility of these compounds
and their propensity to be dispensed into the atmosphere and hydrosphere, it
is small wonder that the Frogs (amphibians) are being deformed and face
extinction. Are We Next?

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 04:54:22 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07602;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 04:48:38 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 04:48:38 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35AB453A.D41EF6DB css.mot.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:47:06 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Discussion Group - Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: New, lower temperature way found to make diamonds
	
	
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"8Xi-A1.0.is1.MMqgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20596
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

01:21 PM ET 07/09/98
New, lower temperature way found to make diamonds
Release at 4 p.m. EDT
            
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Chinese scientists Thursday reported
finding a new way to make diamonds, heating carbon and sodium at
temperatures lower than previously used.

Full Story :
<http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2554998003-857>


John E. Steck
--------------------------------o]{:
  Senior Mechanical Engineer
  Rapid Tooling Applications
  Motorola PCS, Libertyville
  
"If everything you try works, 
  you are not trying hard enough" 
    - Gordon Moore (founder Intel Corp.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 06:10:24 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA08029;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:07:19 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:07:19 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35AC6140.A0A5E71A ihug.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:58:56 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, KeelyNet-L@lists.kz
Subject: How 'FREE-ENERGY' is implicated in CONVENTIONAL ELECTRODYNAMICS!!!!! Re: the Minato, John Berry's mesg.
References: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980714102104.121C-100000 iesun9>
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"JuTx92.0.Lz1.4Wrgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20597
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

<HTML>
I challenge anyone to show that any part of this not totally in agreement
with conventional electrodynamics, The physics of this are ALL <B><U>totally
conventional</U></B> and only the realization that it predicts Free-Energy
is not realized in convention.

<P>Ok, let me try again, an electric charge in motion has a magnetic field,
in conventional electrodynamics motion is ALWAYS relative, so if there
is relative motion between an observer and an electric charge there will
be also an associated magnetic field, If the motion between the observer
and the charge increases (no matter which is accelerating) the magnetic
field from the charge will get stronger and expand, the expanding magnetic
field creates a force on electric particles (in other words the moving
magnetic field is creating an electric field) this electric force is in
the direction of motion, if the observer is in fact an electric charge
it will be accelerate or decelerate depending on if the two charges in
relative motion and acceleration are of the same polarity or opposite.

<P>I do not have the abilities to put this into a mathematical formula,
I know that if conventional electrodynamics is correct that this will work!
<BR>I am not 'beating Faraday's/Lenz's law' to my knowledge, but it works
on these principles of EM induction.

<P>You need to understand that in conventional electrodynamics motion relative
to a magnetic field creates an electric field, and motion relative to a
magnetic field creates an electric field (or force).
<BR>The second can be shown by moving an electrically charged object past
a compass and can be found in conventional texts, the first is created
by generators and the like where a magnet has motion relative to a coil
and electric charge's (electrons) are made to move, this is an electric
force or an electric field.

<P>Now this is all conventional, a moving charge creates a magnetic field
(because it's electric field is moving) and this magnetic field is only
found in frames where there is relative motion to the charge, in the frame
of the charge there is no magnetic field (at least not from the charge).
<BR>Now if the velocity relative to the change increases the magnetic field
will also increase and as it increases it expands out from the charge,
it moves now this moving magnetic field will cut the observer, if the observer
is charged to the same polarity as the charge the two will feel a force
that will further increase their relative velocity, but if they were of
opposite polarity (as in self induction) the acceleration would be resisted
(but so would the deceleration).
<BR>&nbsp;

<P>John

<P>Remi Cornwall wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>John,

<P>Try to formulate these ideas. Text is long and ambiguous. SHow the old
<BR>laws and then the new or how people misinterpret the old. I still don't
<BR>see how your beating Faraday's/Lenz's law.

<P>Remi.</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;</HTML>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 06:27:42 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA17758;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:24:43 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:24:43 -0700
Message-ID: <00fe01bdaf2a$43e043a0$e7b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <llano5 earthlink.net>
Subject: Fish Tank  Experiment for Isolating Air-Borne Pollutants
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:20:32 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"hzeY31.0.IL4.Qmrgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20598
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

A one-gallon fish tank with air pump ($10.00)
is a way to sparge air through the water to
see what water-soluble pollutants one can isolate.

The CO-H2O ---> Formic Acid reaction and the
Aldehydes as well as the Carboxylic-Amino Acids should show up when the
water is analyzed.

If Radon Daughters show up too, that is a plus. :-(

Regards,    Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 06:43:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA20960;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:36:50 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:36:50 -0700
Message-ID: <35AB5CB5.3F43 skylink.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:27:17 -0700
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
References: <v03007805b1d00c5f85a7 [198.133.146.230]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"njXfX.0.Q75.nxrgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20599
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:
> Note that the fields of magnetic and electric dipoles are the duals of each
> other, as are the two sources. Therefore, all conclusions obtained for one
> kind of dipole and its generated fields are the same for the other.

Yes complete duals. The fields of the AC electric dipole must be of the 
same form as the magnetic current loop dipole. 

> The radial or longitudinal component of B (or H; it makes no difference here) 
> varies in space and time as

>   2 cos(theta) [(jkr)^-2  + (jkr)^-3] exp[-j(kr - wt)]

OK. And also a constant factor due to antenna geometry and the relative
magnitudie of the source. Also, it seems easier for me to see, if 
the factor jk, relating to source frequency, is separated from the 
1/r^2 and 1/r^3 factors, and put in with the constant factor. 
For a constant frequency source -- no signal modulation. It is OK 
to do this. Leaving something of this form. 

(Constant) cos(theta) (1/r^2 + 1/r^3) exp[j(wt-kr)] [Radial Direction]

This is pretty much where we began, except the 1/r^3 field was
dropped out. And yes, when considering things like the divergence
it is not proper to drop this. Still the above equation alone
does not satisfy Maxwells divergence equation. 

> The usual transverse B component points in the theta or poloidal direction
> and varies as
>   sin(theta) [(jkr)^-1 +(jkr)^-2  + (jkr)^-3] exp[-j(kr - wt)] 
> The transverse electric field E points in the phi or azimuthal direction
> and varies as
>   sin(theta) [(jkr)^-2  + (jkr)^-3] exp[-j(kr - wt)].

There must also be a 1/r factor in the transverse electric field.
Maybe a typo? 
 
> However, the WHOLE B and E field
> exists together as one EM field DO satisfy Maxwell's equations.

One would like to think so. And Maxwells divergence equations must
be satisfied at all points in space. But are they? 

> The longitudinal B
> cannot exist alone, nor can the transverse, because NEITHER ONE ALONE
> satisfies all the Maxwell equations.

But at some points in space -- they DO exist alone. The longitudinal
part of the field is spacially orthoganal to the transverse part of
the field. You can see this in the factors sin(theta) and cos(theta)
in the above equations. Along the line of the dipole vector, there
is no transverse field whatsoever. The only field along this line 
is the longitudinal field. 

> It is important to know that, just because we have several algebraic terms
> does not mean that any one term alone is physically possible. Consider a
> loose analogy: A temperature of 300 kelvin can be written as 900 K minus
> 600 K, but this does not mean that -600 K is a physical temperature.

Along the line of the dipole vector, the ONLY field is the longitudinal
field. Along this line, this field exists ALONE and is a physical thing. 
Along this line, Maxwells divergence equation is not satisfied. Further, 
it is a travelling wave -- with energy flow away from the source, but 
with no Poynting vector. 
 
> 3. Elaborating still more, the B  lines in charge-free space can neither
> begin nor end. If you think about the B_theta lines of a spherical
> transverse EM wave, you realize that they would "collide" and anihilate at
> the polar axis. However, this is not permitted, by div B = 0. Therefore,
> the B lines bend around radially as they approach the axis and then
> continue unbroken in the opposite theta (transverse) direction as part of
> the next half wave behind. The B lines form closed loops, something like
> rubber bands, that propagate outward at speed c = w/k. The long sides of
> the rubber bands correspond to the theta (transverse) part of the field.
> The ends of the rubber bands correspond to the radaial (longitudinal) part
> of the field, where the unbroken magnetic lines bend around and continue in
> the opposite transverse direction. Not many books have good pictures of
> this any more. The only one I can cite is Markus Zahn, "Electromagnetic
> Field Theory," Wiley & Sons 1979. The figure and other good discussion are
> in Chapt. 9. The B loops encircle azimuthal rings of E.

Yes. This you have explained why there is no transverse field along 
the line of the dipole vector. The graphics you are looking at represents 
the 1/r transverse radiation field. The ends of your rubber bands are NOT
a represenation of the longitudinal field. The longitudinal 1/r^2 
field is not shown in the graphic, except right near the source. To try
to show the whole picture, makes the graphic much to messy. 

> 4. No one is hiding the existence of longitudinal components.

Maybe these waves are hiding themselves? 

> 7. The EM fields hide nothing strange. The longitudinal electric field is
> not new; it is simply the result of the transverse B (or E, in the case of
> an electric dipole) bending around near the poles, in order to satisfy
> divergence = 0. 

The transverse field bends around because it can never reach the poles.
Yet there is a longitudinal travelling wave AT the poles. No matter
how much you bend the loops of the transverse 1/r field near the poles -- 
this part of the field NEVER has a component in the radial direction. 
Perhaps you can argue that these loops are representative of the total
field -- longitudinal and transverse. But there is still the problem
of what happens right on the polar line of the dipole vector -- where 
the the field has only radial components, and is travelling away from
the source.

> As far as I know, the longitudinal field has little application, but
> it influences the antenna impedance.

Maybe there are some applications we don't know about? Maybe we don't
know how this wave propagates along this line? Maybe we don't know
how Maxwells divergence equations can be satisfield along this line?

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 07:15:33 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA30776;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:12:49 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:12:49 -0700
Message-ID: <35AC7271.83330FE5 ihug.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 02:12:18 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: How 'FREE-ENERGY' is implicated in CONVENTIONAL ELECTRODYNAMICS!!!!! Re: the Minato, John Berry's mesg.
References: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980714102104.121C-100000 iesun9>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"u39ns1.0.oW7.WTsgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20600
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I challenge anyone to show that any part of this not
totally in agreement with conventional electrodynamics,
The physics of this are ALL totally conventional and
only the realization that it predicts Free-Energy is not
realized in convention.

Ok, let me try again, an electric charge in motion has a
magnetic field, in conventional electrodynamics motion
is ALWAYS relative, so if there is relative motion
between an observer and an electric charge there will
be also an associated magnetic field, If the motion
between the observer and the charge increases (no matter
which is accelerating) the magnetic field from the charge
will get stronger and expand, the expanding magnetic field
creates a force on electric particles (in other words the
moving magnetic field is creating an electric field) this
electric force is in the direction of motion, if the observer
is in fact an electric charge it will be accelerate or decelerate
depending on if the two charges in relative motion and
acceleration are of the same polarity or opposite.

I do not have the abilities to put this into a mathematical
formula, I know that if conventional electrodynamics is
correct that this will work!
I am not 'beating Faraday's/Lenz's law' to my knowledge,
but it works on these principles of EM induction.

You need to understand that in conventional electrodynamics
motion relative to a magnetic field creates an electric field,
and motion relative to a magnetic field creates an electric
field (or force).
The second can be shown by moving an electrically charged
object past a compass and can be found in conventional
texts, the first is created by generators and the like where
a magnet has motion relative to a coil and electric charge's
(electrons) are made to move, this is an electric force or an
electric field.

Now this is all conventional, a moving charge creates a
magnetic field (because it's electric field is moving) and
this magnetic field is only found in frames where
there is relative motion to the charge, in the frame of the
charge there is no magnetic field (at least not from the
charge).
Now if the velocity relative to the change increases the
magnetic field will also increase and as it increases it
expands out from the charge, it moves now this moving
magnetic field will cut the observer, if the observer is charged
to the same polarity as the charge the two will feel a force that
will further increase their relative velocity, but if they were of
opposite polarity (as in self induction) the acceleration would
be resisted (but so would the deceleration).


John


Remi Cornwall wrote:

> John,
>
> Try to formulate these ideas. Text is long and ambiguous. SHow the old
> laws and then the new or how people misinterpret the old. I still don't
> see how your beating Faraday's/Lenz's law.
>
> Remi.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 08:01:33 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10992;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:56:40 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:56:40 -0700
Message-ID: <19980714122859.12730.qmail hotmail.com>
X-Originating-IP: [194.73.204.17]
From: "Rob King" <kingrs hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Deformed Frogs (http://a51half.com/frog.html)
Content-Type: text/plain
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 05:28:58 PDT
Resent-Message-ID: <"NJ3Rj2.0.6h2.Z6tgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20601
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Vorts,
I know the answer to this one, saw it on Discovery the other night.

It is believed to be caused by tiny larva from a snail burrowing into 
the joint sack before it develops into a limb.
This causes a duplication of limbs at that point.
Not sure about the eye ball down the throat though.
They were looking to see if there was an increase in the number of 
snails in the area but it looked inconclusive.

They looked at chemicals but found nothing, they even looked at the 
possiblity of chemical conversion via ultra-violet rays.

Q1. Anyone seen this Minato wheel demo?
Q2. Greg whats the status of the SMOTS? Delivery date?


Rob King



>From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jul 13 22:13:26 1998
>Received: (from smartlst localhost)
>	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13319;
>	Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:18:33 -0700
>Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:18:33 -0700
>Message-ID: <006701bdaeda$e8391300$e7b4bfa8 default>
>From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
>To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Cc: <llano5 earthlink.net>
>Subject: Deformed Frogs (http://a51half.com/frog.html)
>Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:51:28 -0600
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01BDAEA8.63DE6560"
>X-Priority: 3
>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
>Resent-Message-ID: <"95005.0.0G3.Pmjgr" mx1>
>Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20589
>X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Precedence: list
>Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
>
>
>=20
>Deformed frogs, no big deal you say? Guess again buddy! Back in 1995 a 
=
>few students who attend the New Country School in LeSueur, Minnesota =
>were out catching frogs in the local wet lands when they discovered 
that =
>something wasn't quite right with the frogs they were catching. At 
first =
>they thought they had injured the poor little guys because their legs =
>appeared to be broken but when nearly every frog they caught had the =
>same condition they realized something was terribly wrong. Soon after =
>the initial discovery of the deformed amphibians the students informed 
=
>the MPCA (Minnesota Pollution Control Agency) who began investigating =
>the phenomenon. Large populations of deformed amphibians have since 
been =
>discovered in many states including Wisconsin, California, and even up 
=
>into Canada with some areas of frog populations bieing 96% effected, =
>This is definitely a reason to be concerned but alarmed residents in =
>these areas are being told not to panic. People in effected areas are =
>being given bottled water to drink and are being advised not to drink =
>tap water until it can be determined if it is safe.(probably a good =
>idea)=20
>
> The malformations range from adult frogs who still have their tails =
>which normally would have been shed while maturing from the tadpole =
>stage, to frogs with missing eyeballs, eyeballs growing in their =
>throats, missing limbs, and even extra limbs with some frogs having as 
=
>many as twelve legs! These deformities have been determined not to be =
>genetic but are believed to be caused by either chemical contaminants 
or =
>some other form of pollution in the water.The EPA (Environmental =
>Protection Agency), the National Institute of Environmental health =
>Sciences, and the National Wildlife Health Center Laboratories are =
>currently in a joint effort to find out exactly what is causing the =
>problem and to determine the best way to solve it.=20
>
>Unlike humans, frogs breath through their skin, are extremely sensitive 
=
>to chemical pollution, and are actually acting as an early warning =
>system for us. We probably wont be seeing these same deformities =
>occurring in humans because we don't spend most of our lives in wet =
>lands submerged in polluted water (most of us anyway), nor do we breath 
=
>through our skin, although we should take these warnings seriously and 
=
>once we can discover the cause of the problem, prevent it from 
spreading =
>and happening again (if its not too late already). If you have seen =
>deformed frogs in your area you can help by filling out this report =
>survey brought to you by the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, this =
>will alert researchers to the problem. Check out the poor little 
buggers =
>live with deformed froggy cam a state of the art deformed frog =
>survaliance system!=20
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>-------
>back to the World of the Weird and Bizarre=20
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>-------
>
>=20
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 08:17:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA21857;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:14:35 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:14:35 -0700
From: Puthoff aol.com
Message-ID: <328e8acd.35ab74ff aol.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:10:54 EDT
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re:  How 'FREE-ENERGY' is implicated in CONVENTIONAL ELECTRODYNAMICS!!!!! Re: th
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78
Resent-Message-ID: <"FA-bc2.0.BL5.QNtgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20602
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Unless I'm missing something in your description, the magnetic force vXB is
always perpendicular to v, and the power delivered to the particle is F . v.
Since the cross product  means sin theta and the dot product means cosine
theta, the power delivered from the magnetic field (even if it is a
transformed electric field) is always zero.

Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 09:00:07 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09445;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:56:59 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:56:59 -0700 (PDT)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35AB7E00.B3F979F1 css.mot.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:49:20 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Deformed Frogs
References: <19980714122859.12730.qmail hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"HUmtX1.0.TJ2.8_tgr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20603
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rob King wrote:

> They looked at chemicals but found nothing, they even looked at the
> possiblity of chemical conversion via ultra-violet rays.

Another story that tracked real close to the deformed frogs story, and was
thought to be related, was the severe decline in the frog and newt
populations.  If I recall correctly from an email news item, this connection
was recently disproved.  Apparently a widspread outbreak of a common fungus
natural enemy was blamed.

I guess it's just a bad time to be a frog....



John E. Steck
--------------------------------o]{:
  Senior Mechanical Engineer
  Rapid Tooling Applications
  Motorola PCS, Libertyville
  
"If everything you try works, 
  you are not trying hard enough" 
    - Gordon Moore (founder Intel Corp.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 09:24:28 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10819;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:15:28 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:15:28 -0700
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:13:54 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FREE-ENERGY, pep talk
In-Reply-To: <328e8acd.35ab74ff aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980714165400.1594A-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"T5zU02.0.me2.VGugr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20604
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Vortex,

Someone presented me with a cartoon which was a kind of illustration of the 
process of science. I'll see if I can dig it out and scan it for you. It 
depicted a new gold panner panning for gold down the saloon street.

What it was showing, was that the enthusiastic prospector was panning in 
a place where everybody had been. They're good, they wouldn't miss the 
obvious...

So people in the energy field are a little skeptical of newcommers as: 'it 
can't be simple, it must be something new and probably 
expensive/difficult to set up. A fifth force, new physics'. Maybe. Then 
there's the group dynamic effect of not sticking your neck out and 
agreeing with others. Just stating the obvious. 

My advice, what I'm doing myself, what others have told me, learn the 'old
stuff' and get very proficient at mathematics. It helps a lot - it isn't
that difficult or time consuming. Just do it step by step, make yourself a
maths wall chart. Having not fully mastered basics doesn't necessarily
mean you can't pick up a more advanced book and comprehend it. When you
have the principles, you can 'think on your feet' and readily derive new
results. It has amazing economy, just a few interconnected principles to
express a lot, generally unambiguously. 

Of course, there are people who bamboozle. A little bit of logic and 
common sense can cut through turgid abstractions. Heh, heh, heh. Feynman 
lectures, he doesn't bamboozle! But you'd need a 'standard' book to do 
exercises unless you pick things up first go.

Most of all, keep an open mind.
Sorry John, can you counter what Hal said? If you don't math, diagram it.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 12:27:42 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14136;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:23:23 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:23:23 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35ABB025.F51FCF64 css.mot.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:23:17 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Discussion Group - Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Z Machine Update
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"mV8Zm2.0.oS3.g0xgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20605
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Ok, don't kill the messenger......

This month's Scientific American has a six page article on the Z Machine. 
Looks more in-depth than the previous information posted on line or in the
press releases.  More pictures and diagrams too.  I know there are some very
strong feelings here regarding the continued funding of this particular
program, so let me simply state I am only posting this as an FYI for those
interested.  I don't have enough information to argue one way or the other.

Later.


John E. Steck
--------------------------------o]{:
  Senior Mechanical Engineer
  Rapid Tooling Applications
  Motorola PCS, Libertyville
  
"If everything you try works, 
  you are not trying hard enough" 
    - Gordon Moore (founder Intel Corp.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 13:15:59 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03115;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:09:27 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:09:27 -0700
From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
Message-Id: <v03007807b1d131a46cb7 [198.133.146.230]>
In-Reply-To: <35AB5CB5.3F43 skylink.net>
References: <v03007805b1d00c5f85a7 [198.133.146.230]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:11:18 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Resent-Message-ID: <"GTr7i.0.bm.shxgr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20606
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

1. Robert Stirniman caught a typo in my recent post under this title:

>> The transverse electric field E points in the phi or azimuthal direction
>> and varies as
>>   sin(theta) [(jkr)^-2  + (jkr)^-3] exp[-j(kr - wt)].
>
>There must also be a 1/r factor in the transverse electric field.
>Maybe a typo?
   Yes, I typed the exponents wrong. For the record, the complete field
generated by an oscillating magnetic dipole is:

radial (longitudinal) component of B:
  2 cos(theta) [(jkr)^-2  + (jkr)^-3] exp[-j(kr - wt)]

theta (transverse poloidal) component of B:
  sin(theta) [(jkr)^-1 +(jkr)^-2  + (jkr)^-3] exp[-j(kr - wt)]

phi (transverse azimuthal) component of E:
  sin(theta) [(jkr)^-1  + (jkr)^-2] exp[-j(kr - wt)]

with a group of constants in front of each.

2. Robert wrote:
>Also, it seems easier for me to see, if
>the factor jk, relating to source frequency, is separated from the
>1/r^2 and 1/r^3 factors, and put in with the constant factor.

The j = sqrt(-1) indicates a 90 degree phase shift. It must be kept when
comparing terms, and calculating things like divergences and the Poynting
vector.

3. I think Robert is misapplying divergence of a vector. The divergence
operator operates on all three components of a vector and yields a single
scalar number. It is meaningless to talk about "divergence of the radial
component is zero", unless both other components made zero contribution to
the divergence. In the present problem, the phi component makes no
contribution,
but the theta transverse component DOES make a contribution, and div B = 0.

4. Robert writes:
>But at some points in space -- they DO exist alone. The longitudinal
>part of the field is spacially orthoganal to the transverse part of
>the field. You can see this in the factors sin(theta) and cos(theta)
>in the above equations. Along the line of the dipole vector, there
>is no transverse field whatsoever. The only field along this line
>is the longitudinal field.

Again, this is a misunderstanding of the divergence and also the concept of
a variable passing through zero but still having a finite derivative.
Rather than belabor mathematics, let's go back to the rubber band analogy,
represented in poor ascii art.

polar
axis
 |
 |  ____
 |( __   \
 |     \  \
 |      \  \
 |______ |  | ___
 |       |  |    equatorial plane
 |      /  /
 |  __ /  /
 |( ____/
 |

Like B, the runner band neither starts nor ends. This represents div B = 0.
In both cases, the poloidal component bends around at the at the poles.
This should make clear why the longitudinal component is strongest where
the transverse component disappears, and vice versa. This is NECESSARY.
Only the WHOLE structure can exist physically.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 16:12:18 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27037;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:07:15 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:07:15 -0700
Message-ID: <35ABD73E.705E earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:10:06 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Murray: personal research on awareness 7.14.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"0eGXR.0.Mc6.YI-gr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20607
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

July 14, 1998

I'm glad to see amused comments about PK in physics. Amusement is the
best mood for opening to subtle aspects of awareness.  As I see it, each
researcher has to explore the possibilites for themselves in their own
personal experience, holding at least provisionally  the belief that the
properties of consciousness are unknown, since all evidence and theory
about anything whatsoever only created as experiences in awareness.  No
adaquate description, measurement, or theory about awarensses exists,
and even more so for expanded, subtle states.  So, there is no platform
from which we can ascribe any spatial, temporal, or causal limits to
awareness.  This amounts to a confession that perhaps awareness, your
awareness, already,  is actually aspatial, atemporal, and acausal, or
infinite, eternal, and "magical".  So, the severe limits that almost all
readers notice of their usual realm of awareness, namely, ordinary life
and thought in our world, may be the result of deeply ingrained patterns
of thought.  Who wants to give up or release their deeply ingrained
patterns of thought?  It is in thought that we are indeed rich. Some
time ago a capable teacher told a rich man, "If you want to find the
Kingdom of Heaven, well, it is within you.  Just give away all you have,
and come and follow me."

Rich Murray
Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103
rmforall earthlink.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 19:07:11 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06226;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:02:26 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:02:26 -0700
Message-ID: <35AD18AB.AFE3DEA4 ihug.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:01:31 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: How 'FREE-ENERGY' is implicated in CONVENTIONAL ELECTRODYNAMICS!!!!! Re: th
References: <328e8acd.35ab74ff aol.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C3D20768FF3204982BB6D570"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Hjx6k1.0.1X1.ns0hr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20608
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------C3D20768FF3204982BB6D570
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Look at the attached .gif and tell me what part is wrong, Is the magnetic field
not as I say it is? Is it not in circles around the electron? do I have the
direction of the field wrong?  Does it not depend on relative velocity to the
electron to see the magnetic field? Will the magnetic field not expand out and
move from the electron (with acceleration)? Does a moving magnetic field not
create a force on electrical charges? Is this force not at right angels to the
motion and the magnetic field? Is the direction of the magnetic field and it's
motion (due to expansion) not at right angels to each other and the electrons
motion (they are not all three mutually orthogonal)? So why do you say that the
two electrons with growing speed relative to each other not have a force that is
increasing there relative velocity?


John Berry

Puthoff aol.com wrote:

> Unless I'm missing something in your description, the magnetic force vXB is
> always perpendicular to v, and the power delivered to the particle is F . v.
> Since the cross product  means sin theta and the dot product means cosine
> theta, the power delivered from the magnetic field (even if it is a
> transformed electric field) is always zero.
>
> Hal Puthoff



--------------C3D20768FF3204982BB6D570
Content-Type: image/gif; name="ELECTRIC.GIF"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ELECTRIC.GIF"
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--------------C3D20768FF3204982BB6D570--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 20:49:48 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23321;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:47:44 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:47:44 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35AC4F46.6D16 bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:42:14 -0700
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20  (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Murray: personal research on awareness 7.14.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"AbzyP2.0.Ji5.RP2hr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20609
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rich Murray wrote:
> 
> July 14, 1998

<snip>

> No
> adaquate description, measurement, or theory about awarensses exists,
> and even more so for expanded, subtle states.  So, there is no platform
> from which we can ascribe any spatial, temporal, or causal limits to
> awareness.  This amounts to a confession that perhaps awareness, your
> awareness, already,  is actually aspatial, atemporal, and acausal, or
> infinite, eternal, and "magical".

<snip>

"Thou art God."  -Valentine Michael Smith, _Stranger in a Strange Land_,
Robert A. Heinlein (late)

> Rich Murray
> Room For All
> 1943  Otowi Drive
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 505-986-9103
> rmforall earthlink.net

You really should consider relocating to Sedona (AZ)> 

Warmest Regards,
Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 22:35:14 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29821;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:34:08 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:34:08 -0700
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:34:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Awareness
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980714222934.5888A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"G3vX31.0.nH7.Fz3hr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20610
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

 
  Awareness is not that abstract, difficult or inconprehansible,
 if one simply allows that consciousness transcends existence. 
 
  This is to say that the material universe is not in a continuous
 state of existence, because if it were it could not make state
 changes which must occur over time _in sequence_.  (i.e. 
 everything would be "frozen"  into one state of existence). 
 Comprehensively then "reality"  must consist of matter ->
 information -> updated "changed" matter -> information -> ...(and
 so on likewise in sequence). 
 
  This means that what we call "awareness" occupies time slices
 that probably need not exceed 30 - 40 updates per second (the
 persistence of vision)  , and therefore is somewhat selective of
 which updates (information) generated by the changing universe
 are impressed upon our material corpuses .  This leads to the
 conclusion that awareness must exist during the information phase
 of reality when matter itself does not exist. 
 
  "Ghosts" or apparitions are simply material entities consisting
 possibly of information only from our perspective , and can have
 a self awareness and an awareness of their surroundings but are
 not usually in phase with the rest of us as far as their
 interactions with the material world. 
 
  They are therefore sometimes able to make "updates" to the
 material world by interacting with it during the time slices where
 our own awareness is busy recording impressions of our
 surroundings upon our corpuses (which corpuses do not exist
 continuously) .  Therefore magic, as things change as a result of
 these interactions which we do not see due to the low
 refresh-write-refresh rates of our awareness. 
 
 Jim Ostrowski
 
 P.S. "corpus" = body + brain (our "selves") therefore "we" are NOT
 our "selves". 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 23:39:49 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07439;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:35:58 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:35:58 -0700
Message-ID: <35AC4063.733D earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:38:43 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Laszlo: Mind & quantum vacuum theory  Part 2/2  7/14/98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"FAXoY.0.8q1.Et4hr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20613
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

A field that constitutes the simplest, the most economical and rational
explanation of the current findings may exist: David Bohm, the same as
this writer, suggested that it is the as yet imperfectly understood
"zero-point field" (ZPF) that seems present throughout the quantum
vacuum. In the following, we shall explore what is known about this
field of the vacuum, what is currently hypothesized about it, and how it
could account for the subtle interconnections noted above. 

Received knowledge about the vacuum - - In quantum physics the quantum
vacuum is defined as the lowest energy state of a system of which the
equations obey wave mechanics and special relativity. It is considerably
more than just the state of a system, however. It is the locus of a vast
energy field that is neither classically electromagnetic nor
gravitational, nor yet nuclear in nature. Instead, it is the originating
source of the known electromagnetic, gravitational, and nuclear forces
and fields. It is the originating source of matter itself. 

The technical definitions of the quantum vacuum point to a continuous
energy sea in which particles of matter are specific substructures.
According to Paul Dirac's calculation, all particles in positive energy
states have negative-energy counterparts (by now such "antiparticles"
have been found experi-mentally for all presently known particles). The
zero-point field of the quantum vacuum is a "Dirac-sea": a sea of
particles in the negative energy state. These particles are not
observable — physicists call them "virtual." But they are not fictional,
for all that. By stimulating the negative energy states of the ZPF with
sufficient energy (of the order of 10E-27 erg), a particular region of
it can be "kicked" into the real (that is, observable) state of positive
energy. This is the process known as pair-creation: out of the vacuum
emerges a positive energy (real) particle, with a negative energy
(virtual) particle remaining in it. Thus the Dirac-sea is everywhere;
the observable universe floats, as it were, on its surface. 

The quantum vacuum contains a staggering density of energy. John Wheeler
estimated its matter-equivalent at 10E94 gram per cm3 — and that is more
than all the matter in the universe put together. Compared with this
energy density, the energy of the nucleus of the atom — the most
energetic chunk of matter in the known universe — seems almost
minuscule: it is "merely" 10E14 gram/cm3. 

The vacuum itself is not material: its zero-point energies — which,
according to David Bohm, exceed all the energies bound in matter 10E40
times — are in the negative state. This is fortunate, for if they were
not, the universe would instantly collapse to a size smaller than the
radius of an atom. (This follows from E = mc2, Einstein's celebrated
mass-energy equivalence relation: energy corresponds to mass, and mass
in turn entails gravitation.) 

Because the "real" world of matter — that is, of energy bound in mass —
is so much less energetic than the vacuum, the observable universe is
not a solid condensate floating on top of the vacuum, but like a set of
bubbles suspended in it. In terms of energy, the material world is not a
solidification of the quantum vacuum, but a thinning of it. 

Speculations on the vacuum - - A thin line divides what is already known
and accepted about the quantum vacuum and what is still speculative and
controversial. Here we review the relevant explorations: those that
concern interactions between the observable world of matter-energy and
the vacuum's zero-point energies. 

The world of matter and the quantum vacuum are known to interact. For
example, under certain conditions vacuum's zero-point energies act on
electrons orbiting atomic nuclei. The effects occur when electrons
"jump" from one energy state to another: the photons they emit exhibit
the so- called Lamb-shift (a frequency slightly shifted from its normal
value). Vacuum energies also create a radiation pressure on two closely
spaced metal plates. Between the plates some wavelengths of the vacuum
field are excluded, thereby reducing its energy density with respect to
the field outside. This creates a pressure — known as the Casimir effect
— that pushes the plates inward and together. 

Other interactions may exist as well. Some years ago, Hungarian
physicist Lajos Jánossy assigned "relativistic effects" (such as the
slowing down of clocks when accelerated close to the speed of light,
or the increasing of the mass of objects at those velocities) to the
interaction of realworld objects with the vacuum's energy field. Close
to the speed of light the matter-particles of objects rub against the
force-particles (bosons) of the vacuum, and this friction slows down
their processes and increases their mass. In this concept the ZPF of the
vacuum is a physical field that interacts with the objects that move in
space and time. 

Currently another Hungarian, maverick theoretician László Gazdag,
developed Jánossy's concept into a full-fledged "post-relativity
theory."[19]——,"Superfluid mediums, vacuum spaces", Speculations in
Science and Technology, Vol. 12,1, 1989; and "Combining of the
gravitational and electromagnetic fields, ibid., Vol. 16,1, 1993. 

In his theory the vacuum's energy field has the properties of a
superfluid. It is known that in supercooled helium all resistance and
friction ceases; it moves through narrow cracks and capilleries without
loss of momentum. Conversely, objects move through the fluid without
encountering resistance. (Since also electrons move through it without
resistance, superfluids are also superconductors.) Thus, in a sense, a
superconducting superfluid is not "there" for the objects or electrons
that move through it — they get no information about its presence. This
could explain why we, and even our most sensitive instruments, fail to
register its presence.

In Gazdag's reinterpretation of Einstein's relativity theory the
celebrated formulas describe the flow of bosons in the superfluid ZPF.
This flow is what determines the geometrical structure of spacetime,
and hence the trajectory of realworld photons and electrons. When
particles of light and matter move uniformly, spacetime is Euclidean;
when they are accelerated the ZPF interacts with their motion. Then
spacetime appears curved. (As Russian physicist Piotr Kapitza noted, in
a superfluid only those objects move without friction that are in
constant quasi-uniform motion. If an object is strongly accelerated,
vortices are created in the medium, and these vortices produce
resistance: the classical interaction effects surface.) 

Front-line research in physics confirms the basic notion that underlies
these assumptions. Current work follows up a suggestion made by
physicists Paul Davies and William Unruh in the mid-1970s. Davies and
Unruh, like Jánossy and Gazdag, based their argument on the difference
between constant-speed and accelerated motion in the vacuum's zero-point
field. Constant-speed motion would exhibit the vacuum's spectrum as
isotropic (the same in all directions), whereas accelerated motion would
produce a thermal radiation that breaks open the directional symmetry.
The "Davies-Unruh effect," too small to be measured with physical
instruments, prompted scientists to investigate whether accelerated
motion through the vacuum field would produce incremental effects. This
expectation has borne fruit. It turned out that the inertial force
itself could be due to interactions in that field.

In 1994 Bernhard Haisch, Alfonso Rueda and Harold Puthoff gave a
mathematical demonstration that inertia can be considered a vacuum-
based Lorentz-force.[20] The force originates at the subparticle level
and produces opposition to the acceleration of material objects. The
accelerated motion of objects through the vacuum produces a magnetic
field, and the particles that constitute the objects are deflected by
this field. The larger the object the more particles it contains, hence
the stronger the deflection — and greater the inertia. Inertia is thus a
form of electromagnetic resistance arising in accelerated frames from
the distortion of the zero-point (and otherwise superfluid) field of
the vacuum.

More than inertia, also mass appears to be a product of vacuum inter-
action. If Haisch and collaborators are right, the concept of mass is
neither fundamental nor even necessary in physics. When the massless
electric charges of the vacuum (the bosons that make up the superfluid
zero-point field) interact with the electromagnetic field, beyond the
already noted threshold of energy, mass is effectively "created." Thus
mass may be a structure condensed from vacuum energy, rather than a
fundamental given in the universe.

If mass is a product of vacuum energy, so is gravitation. Gravity, as we
know, is always associated with mass, obeying the inverse square law (it
drops off proportionately to the square of the distance between the
gravitating masses). Hence if mass is produced in interaction with the
ZPF, then also the force that is associated with mass must be so
produced. This, however, means that all the fundamental characteristics
we normally associate with matter are vacuum field-interaction products:
inertia, mass, as well as gravity. 

In regard to the full scale of interactions between vacuum energies and
the micro- as well as macro -world of matter-energy, the work of a group
of Russian physicists is of particular significance. Anatoly Akimov,
G.I. Shipov, V.N. Binghi and co-workers developed a sophisticated theory
of what they call the "physical vacuum." In their theory the vacuum is a
real physical field extending throughout the universe: it registers and
transmits the traces of both micro-particles and  macro-objects.[21]
Anatoly Akimov, "Heuristic discussion of the problem of finding long-
range interactions. EGS- Concepts." Center of Intersectoral Science,
Engineering and Venture, Non-Conventional Technologies (CISE VENT),
Preprint No. 74, Moscow 1991. 

The theory, which at the time of writing has not been published outside
Russia, is important and fascinating enough to merit some further
details. 

In standard theories the energetic properties of the quantum vacuum are
generally considered in the framework of quantum electrodynamics. This
framework gives rise to elegant and relatively simple mathematics. But
such formulas, though highly sophisticated, can be misleading: they may
not provide the best possible account of physical reality. Stochastic
electro-dynamics, for example, produces a more "messy" math, but its
tenets about the real world may be closer to realistic assumptions about
the nature of reality. In any case, quantum electrodynamics, as other
scientific theories, can always be reconsidered or extended. 

The Russian physicists do not hesitate to undertake this step. They take
their cue from earlier work by Einstein. In a seminal treatment, G.I.
Shiphov showed that in accordance with the Clifford-Einstein program of
the geometrization of spacetime, the vacuum can be described not only in
terms of Riemannian (four- dimensional) curvature, but also in terms of
Cartan torsion. In the 1920s studies carried out by Albert Einstein and
E. Cartan laid the foundation of the theory that became subsequent known
as the ECT (Einstein-Cartan Theory). The idea stemmed originally from
Cartan, who at the beginning of the century speculated about fields
generated by angular momentum density. This idea was later elaborated
independently by a number of Russian physicists, including N. Myshkin
and V. Belyaev. They claim to have discovered the natural manifestations
of enduring torsion fields. 

Presently Akimov and his team consider the quantum vacuum as a universal
torsion wave carrying medium. The torsion field is said to fill all of
space isotropically, including its matter component. It has a quantal
structure that is unobservable in non- disturbed states. However,
violations of vacuum symmetry and invariance create different, and in
principle observable, states. 

The torsion field theory takes a modified form of the original electron-
positron model of the "Dirac-sea": the vacuum's energy field is viewed
as a system of rotating wave packets of electrons and positrons (rather
than a sea of electron-positron pairs). Where the wave- packets are
mutually embedded, the field is electrically neutral. If the spins of
the embedded packets have the opposite sign, the system is compensated
not only in charge, but also in classical spin and magnetic moment.
Such a system is said to be a "phyton." Dense ensembles of phytons are
said to approximate a simplified model of the physical vacuum field. 

When the phytons are spin-compensated, their orientation within the
ensemble is arbitrary. But when a charge q is the source of disturbance,
the action produces a charge polarization of the vacuum, as prescribed
by quantum electrodynamics. When a mass m is the source of disturbance,
the phytons produce symmetrical oscillations along the axis given by the
direction of the disturbance. The vacuum then enters a state
characterized by the oscillation of the phytons along their longitudinal
spin-polarization; this is interpreted as a gravitational field (G-
field). The gravitational field is thus the result of vacuum
decompensation arising at its point of polarization — which is an idea
that was originally introduced by Sakharov. Given that the gravitational
field is characterized by longitudinal waves, it cannot be screened,
which is in accordance with observation and experiment. Hence m-
disturbance produces the G- field, much as q- disturbance produces the
electromagnetic field. 

Akimov et al. go further. Following a thesis advanced by Roger Penrose,
they represent the vacuum equations in the spinor form and thereby
obtain a system of nonlinear spinor equations where two-component
spinors represent the potentials of torsion fields. These equations can
describe charged as well as neutral quantum and classical particles.
They thus allow that the vacuum field is disturbed not only by charge
and mass, but also by classical spin. In that event the phytons oriented
in the same direction as the spin of the disturbance keep their
orientation. Those opposite to the spin of the source undergo inversion;
then the local region of the vacuum transits into a state of transverse
spin polarization. This gives the "spin field" (S-field), viewed as a
condensate of fermion pairs.

As a result Akimov et al. view the vacuum as a physical medium that can
assume various polarization states. Given charge polarization, the
vacuum is manifested as the electromagnetic field. Given matter-
polarization, it is manifested as the gravitational field. And given
spin-polarization, the vacuum manifests as a spin-field. All fundamental
fields known to physics correspond to specific vacuum
polarization-states. 

Thus the above "torsion- field theory of the physical vacuum" can claim
that all objects, from quanta to galaxies, create vortices in the
vacuum. The vortices created by particles and other material objects are
information carriers, linking physical events quasi- instantaneously.
The group-speed of these "torsion- waves" is of the order of 10E9 C —
one billion times the speed of light. Since not just physical objects,
also the neurons in our brain create and receive torsion-waves, not only
particles are "informed" of each other's presence (as in the famous EPR
experiments), also humans can be so informed: our brain, too, is a
vacuum-based "torsion-field transceiver." This suggests a physical
explanation not only of quantum non-locality, but also of telepathy,
remote viewing, and the other telesomatic effects discussed above.[22] 

Torsion waves both superluminal and enduring. Meta-stable "torsion-
phantoms" generated by spin-torsion interaction can persist even in the
absence of the objects that generated them. The existence of these
phantoms has been confirmed in the experiments of Vladimir Poponin and
his team at the Institute of Biochemical Physics of the Russian Academy
of Sciences.[23](see P.P.Gariaev, K.V. Grigor'ev, A.A. Vasil'ev, V.P.
Poponin and V.A. Shcheglov, "Investigation of the fluctuation dynamics
of DNA solutions by laser correlation spectro-scopy," in Bulletin of the
Lebedev Physics Institute No. 11- 12, 1999, pp. 23- 30; V.P. Poponin,
"Modeling of NLE dynamics in one dimensional anharmonic FPU-lattice",
Physics Letters A .)

Poponin, who has since repeated the experiment at the Heartmath
Institute in the US, placed a sample of a DNA molecule into a
temperature controlled chamber and subjected it to a laser beam. He
found that the electromagnetic field around the chamber exhibits a
specific structure, more or less as expected. But he also found that
this structure persists long after the DNA itself has been removed from
the laser-irradiated chamber: the DNA's imprint in the field continues
to be present when the DNA is no longer there. Poponin and his
collaborators conclude that the experiment shows that a new field
structure has been triggered from the physical vacuum. This field is
extremely sensitive; it can be excited by a range of energies close to
zero. The phantom effect is a manifestation, they claim, of a hitherto
overlooked vacuum substructure. 

Theories such as those we have cited here foreshadow a major leap in the
scientific world picture: the physical foundations of the universe
acquire an active role in all its functions and processes. Life,
and even mind, is a manifestation of the constant if subtle interaction
of the wave-packets classically known as "matter" with the underlying
physically real zero-point vacuum field. 

If the emerging world picture is to be completed, we must evolve an
explicit hypothesis to describe the basic dynamics of the overall range
of matter-vacuum interaction. In this writer's "quantum-vacuum
interaction (QVI) hypothesis," the non-classical energy field of the
vacuum (consisting of scalar as well as electromagnetic wave
propagations) registers the spacetime behavior and evolution of
matter-energy systems in the form of interfering wavefronts. The
conserved interference patterns form a holographic information field
accessible to systems with a stereodynamic pattern isomorphic
to the systems that produced the patterns. The applicable process can be
described as forward and reverse Fourier (more exactly, Gabor)
transforms. Hence matter-energy systems ranging from quanta to complex
atomic, molecular, cellular and multicellular structures, including
human brains, decode ("read out") the information they and analogous
systems have encoded ("read into") the field. Given that wavefronts
superpose in multiple dimensions, the ZPF of the vacuum acts as an
information-conserving and transmitting universal holofield, intercon-
necting systems with each other, as well as with their subsidiary
systems (internal parts) and suprasystems (external environments).[24] 

Conclusions

The astonishing psi-phenomena that come to light in controlled
experiments, and the equally astonishing findings of expert
psychotherapists cannot be dismissed as mere chimera, figments of a
fertile but undisciplined imagination. The findings are part and parcel
of the manifestation of human consciousness: an entity whose
subconscious domains extend far beyond the confines of the subject's
brain and organism. 

The findings may be real, yet their acceptance hinges critically on
discovering ways to connect them with the received frameworks of
knowledge. As long as there is no conceivable tie between an anomaly and
the basic paradigm that frames knowledge in the pertinent field, the
anomaly will remain just that: a paradoxical, uncomprehended item,
relegated to the back shelf of the science establishment. Recognition of
a conceivable tie could, however, make for a significant difference —
it could open up feasible avenues of conceptual analysis, theory-
formulation, and experimental testing. For that reason likely hypotheses
of brain-brain and brain-universe (or, in an alternative terminology,
consciousness-consciousness, and consciousness-world) interaction need
to be seriously scrutinized, for intrinsic meaningfulness, consistency
with observations, as well as mesh with the currently known frameworks
of explanation. 

In the here discussed case, the scientific validation of the findings
would have an additional bonus. Not only would it introduce greater
coherence into our world picture — binding together the hitherto
anomalous findings of consciousness research with our knowledge of the
physical world — it would also introduce greater coherence into human
affairs. As thoughtful observers have frequently remarked, many of our
current ills are due to the sense of separateness and lack of empathy we
experience vis-à-vis our fellow humans and the nonhuman realms of nature
(in modern societies, as Woody Allen quipped, "nature and I are two").
The scientist's recognition that we do have deeper ties to each other
and to the natural environment could make a significant impact on the
media, and therewith on the dominant attitudes of the public. 

T.S. Eliot asked, "What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow
out of this stony rubbish? Son of man you cannot say, or guess, for you
know only a heap of broken images..." Perhaps, the exploration of our
subtle ties with each other and with nature could enable us to know more
than a heap of broken images. It could help us to recognize Bateson's
"pattern that connects": the subtle connecting pattern present in the
cosmos and in the biosphere — and likewise in our brain and
consciousness.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 23:39:50 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07083;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:35:29 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:35:29 -0700
Message-ID: <35AC4045.7BA6 earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:38:13 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Laszlo: Mind & quantum vacuum theory  Part 1/2  7.14.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"6Fr-K1.0.bk1.ms4hr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20611
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dynamical Psychology: An International, Interdisciplinary Journal 
                   of Complex Mental Processes 

http://goertzel.org/dynapsyc/dynacon.html

http://goertzel.org/dynapsyc/1996/subtle.html

Subtle Connections: Psi, Grof, Jung, and the Quantum Vacuum

Ervin Laszlo
The International Society for the Systems Sciences
and The Club of Budapest

Copyright Ervin Laszlo 1996 

Are human beings entirely discrete individuals, their organism enclosed
by the skin and their minds enclosed by the cranium housing the brain?
Or are there effective, if subtle, interconnections between humans — and
between humans and the world at large? This study argues that the latter
assumption is likely to be true. Though the evidence for "subtle
connections" is not in the form of incontrovertible "hard data", it is
nevertheless cogent and significant. The directly pertinent findings are
generated by  research on psi- phenomena and the practice of
psychotherapists. Possible explanations for the findings can be traced
to the ideas of Carl Jung, and are now pursued at the leading edge of
the physical sciences. 

The Findings: (i) Psi experiments

Controlled experiments concerning subtle connections between subjects
removed in space, and occasionally also in time, date back to back to
the 1930s, to J.B. Rhine's pioneering card- and dice-guessing work at
Duke University. Since then, experimental designs have become
sophisticated and experimental controls rigorous; physicists have often
joined psychologists in carrying out the tests. Explanations in terms of
hidden sensory cues, machine bias, cheating by subjects, and
experimenter error or incompetence have all been considered, but they
were found unable to account for a number of statistically significant
results. 

Relevant work began in the 1970s, when Russell Targ and Harold Puthoff
carried out some of the best known experiments on subtle connections
among distant subjects in regard to the transference of thoughts and
images. They examined the possibility of telepathic transmission between
individuals, one of whom would act as "sender" and the other as
"receiver." The receiver was placed in a sealed, opaque and electrically
shielded chamber, while the sender was in another room, where he or she
was subjected to bright flashes of light at regular intervals.
Electroencephalograph (EEG) machines registered the brain- wave patterns
of both. As expected, the sender exhibited the rhythmic brain waves that
normally accompany exposure to bright flashes of light. But, after a
brief interval the receiver also began to produce the same patterns,
although he or she was not exposed to the flashes and was not receiving
sense- perceivable signals from the sender. 

Targ and Puthoff also conducted experiments on remote viewing. In these
tests sender and receiver were separated by distances that precluded any
form of sensory communication between them. At a site chosen at random,
the sender acted as a "beacon"; the receiver then tried to pick up what
the beacon saw. To document his or her impressions, the receiver gave
verbal descriptions, at times accompanied by sketches. Independent
judges found that the descriptions of the sketches matched on the
average 66 percent of the time the characteristics of the site that was
actually seen by the beacon.[1]

Russell Targ and Harold Puthoff, "Information transmission under
conditions of sensory shielding," in Nature, Volume 251, 1974; Russell
Targ and K. Harary, The Mind Race, New York: Villard Books, 1984; Harold
E. Puthoff and Russell Targ, "A perceptual channel for information
transfer over kilometer distances: historical perspective and recent
research" Proceedings of the IEEE, Vol. 64, 1976.

Remote viewing experiments reported from other laboratories involved
distances from half a mile to several thousand miles. Regardless of
where they were carried out, and by whom, the success rate was generally
around fifty percent — considerably above random probability. The most
successful viewers appeared to be those who were relaxed, attentive, and
meditative. They reported that they received a preliminary impression as
a gentle and fleeting form which gradually evolved into an integrated
image. They experienced the image as a surprise, both because it was
clear and because it was clearly elsewhere. 

Images could also be transmitted while the receiver is asleep. Over
several decades, Stanley Krippner and his associates carried out "dream
ESP experiments" at the Dream Laboratory of Maimondes Hospital in New
York City.[2] The experiments followed a simple yet effective protocol.
The volunteer, who would spend the night at the laboratory, would meet
the sender and the experimenters on arrival, and had the procedure
explained to him or her. Electrodes were then attached to the
volunteer's head to monitor brain waves and eye movements; there was no
further sensory contact with the sender until the next morning. One of
the experimenters threw dice that, in combination with a random number
table, gave a number that corresponded to a sealed envelope containing
an art print. The envelope was opened when the sender reached his or her
private room in a distant part of the hospital. The sender then spent
the night concentrating on the print.
 
The experimenters woke the volunteers by intercom when the monitor
showed the end of a period of rapid eye- movement (REM) sleep. The
subject was then asked to describe any dream he or she might have had
before awakening. The comments were recorded, together with the contents
of an interview the next morning, when the subject was asked to
associate with the remembered dreams. The interview was conducted double
blind — neither the subject nor the experimenters knew which art print
had been selected the night before. 

Using data taken from the first night that each volunteer spent at the
dream laboratory, the series of experiments between 1964 and 1969
produced 62 nights of data for analysis. They exhibited a significant
correlation between the art print selected for a given night and the
recipient's dreams on that night. The score was considerably higher on
nights when there were few or no electrical storms in the area and
sunspot activity was at a low ebb — that is, when the Earth's
geomagnetic field was relatively undisturbed. 

A particularly striking example of transpersonal contact and com-
munication has been the work of Jacobo Grinberg-Zylverbaum at the
National University of Mexico.[3] In more than fifty experiments
performed over five years, Grinberg-Zylberbaum paired his subjects
inside sound-and-electro-magnetic radiation-proof "Faraday cages." He
asked them to meditate together for twenty minutes. Then he placed the
subjects in separate Faraday cages, where one of them was stimulated
and the other not. The stimulated subject received stimuli at random
intervals in such a way that neither he or she, nor the experimenter,
knew when they were applied. The non-stimulated subject remained
relaxed, with eyes closed, instructed to feel the presence of the
partner without knowing anything about his or her stimulation. 

In general, a series of one hundred stimuli were applied — flashes of
light, sounds, or short, intense but not painful electric shocks to the
index and ring fingers of the right hand. The EEG of both subjects was
then synchronized and examined for "normal" potentials evoked in the
stimulated subject and "transferred" potentials in the non-stimulated
subject. Transferred potentials were not found in control situations
where there was either no stimulated subject; or when a screen prevented
the stimulated subject from perceiving the stimuli (such as light
flashes); or else when the paired subjects did not previously interact.
However, in experimental situations with stimulated subjects and with
interaction, the transferred potentials appeared consistently in some 25
percent of the cases. A particularly poignant example was furnished by a
young couple, deeply in love. Their EEG patterns remained closely
synchronized throughout the experiment, testifying to their report of
feeling a deep oneness. 

In a limited way, Grinberg-Zylberbaum could also replicate his results.
When a subject exhibited the transferred potentials in one experiment,
he or she usually exhibited them in subsequent experiments as well. 

A related experiment investigated the degree of harmonization of the
left and right hemispheres of the subject's neocortex. In ordinary
waking consciousness the two hemispheres — the language-oriented,
linearly thinking rational "left brain" and the gestalt-perceiving
intuitive "right brain" — exhibit uncoordinated, randomly diverging
wavepatterns in the electroencelograph. When the subject enters a
meditative state of conscious-ness, these patterns become synchronized,
and in deep meditation the two hemispheres fall into a nearly identical
pattern. In deep meditation, not only the left and right brains of one
and the same subject, also the left and right brains of different
subjects manifest identical patterns. Experiments with up to twelve
subjects simultaneously showed an astonishing synchronization of the
brain- waves of the entire group.[4]

In the past few years experiments such as these have been matched by
hundreds of others. They provide significant evidence that identifiable
and consistent electrical signals occur in the brain of one person when
a second person, especially if he or she is closely related or
emotionally linked, is either meditating, or provided with sensory
stimulation, or attempts to communicate with the subject
intentionally.[5] (see Larry Dossey, Recovering the the Soul: A
Scientific and_Spiritual Search, New York, Bantam 1989; ——, Healing
Words: The Power of Prayer and the Practice of Medicine, Harper San
Francisco, 1993; W. Braud and M. Schlitz, "Psychokinetic influence on
electrodermal activity," Journal of Parapsychology, Vol. 47, 1983; Mario
Varvoglis, "Goal-directed-and observer-dependent PK: An evaluation of
the conformance-behavior model and the observation theories," The
Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, 80 (1986);
R. Rosenthal, "Combining results of independent studies," Psychological
Bulletin, 85(1978); C. Honorton, R. Berger, M. Varvoglis, M. Quant., P.
Derr, E. Schechter, and D. Ferrari, 'Psi-communication in the Ganzfeld:
Experiments with an automated testing system and a comparison with a
meta-analysis of earlier studies.' Journal of Parapsychology, 54
(1990).) 

Interpersonal connection beyond the sensory range can also occur outside
the laboratory; it is particularly frequent among identical twins. In
many cases one twin feels the pain suffered by the other, and is aware
of traumas and crises even if he or she is halfway around the world.
Besides "twin pain," the sensitivity of mothers and lovers is equally
noteworthy: countless stories are recounted of mothers having known when
their son or daugther was in grave danger, or was actually involved in
an accident. 

Interpersonal connection is not limited to twins, mothers and lovers:
the kind of closeness that a therapeutic relationship creates between
therapist and patient seems also to suffice. A number of
psychotherapists have noted that, during a session, they experience
memories, feelings, attitudes, and associations that are outside the
normal scope of their experience and personality. At the time these
strange items are experienced they are indistinguishable from the
memories, feelings and related sentiments of the therapists themselves;
it is only later, on reflection, that they come to realize that the
anomalous items stem not from their own life and experience, but from
their patient. 

It appears that in the course of the therapeutic relationship some
aspect of the patient's psyche is projected into the mind of the
therapist. In that location, at least for a limited time, it integrates
with the therapist's own psyche and produces an awareness of some of the
patient's memories, feeling, and associations. Known as "projective
identification," the transference can be useful in the context of
therapy: it can permit the patient to view what was previously a painful
element in his or her personal consciousness more objectively, as if it
belonged to somebody else. 

Actual bodily effects seem also capable of being transmitted from one
individual to another. Transmissions of this kind came to be known as
"telesomatic": they consist of physiological changes that are triggered
in the targeted person by the mental processes of another. [6] The
distance between the individuals involved seems to make little or no
difference. William Braud and Marilyn Schlitz carried out hundreds of
trials regarding the impact of the mental imagery of senders on the
physiology of receivers — the latter were distant, and unaware that such
imagery was being directed to them. They claim that the mental images of
the sender can "reach out" over space and cause changes in the
physiology of the distant receiver — effects comparable to those one's
own mental processes produce in one's own body. People who attempt to
influence their own bodily functions are only slightly more effective
than those who attempt to influence the physiology of others from a
distance. Over several cases involving a large number of individuals,
the difference between remote influence and self-influence was almost
insignificant: "telesomatic" influence by a distant person proved to be
nearly as effective as "psychosomatic" influence by the same person. 

The Findings: (ii) Grof's experience with altered states of
consciousness

Complementing psi- experiments in regard to the ability of the human
mind to penetrate beyond the limits of personal sensory experience are
the findings of modern psychotherapists. The pertinent evidence comes
clearly to the fore in the work of Stanislav Grof. In reviewing findings
gathered in the course of over three decades, Grof suggests that the
standard cartography of the human mind needs to be completed with
additional elements. To the standard "biographic-recollective" domain
of the psyche we should add a "perinatal" and a "transpersonal" domain.
The transpersonal domain, it appears, can mediate connection between our
mind and practically any part or aspect of the phenomenal world.[7]

Grof's experience derives from work with non-ordinary "altered" states
of consciousness (ASCs), induced in his patients either by psychedelic
drugs or holotropic breathing. ASCs embrace a large part of the human
psyche; the states of normal waking consciousness are but the tip of the
iceberg.  As over a hundred years ago William James had noted, "Our
normal waking consciousness...is but one special type of consciousness,
whilst all about it, parted from it by the filmiest of screens, there
lie potential forms of consciousness entirely different. We may go
through life without suspecting their existence; but apply the requisite
stimulus, and at a touch they are all there in all their
completeness."[8]  People in "primitive" and classical cultures knew how
to apply the requisite stimulus — some tribes, such as the !Kung Bushmen
of the Kalahari desert, could enter altered states all at the same time.
In many parts of the world ancient peoples combined chanting, breathing,
drumming, rhythmic dancing, fasting, social and sensory isolation, even
specific forms of physical pain to induce altered states. The native
cultures of Africa and pre-Colombian America used them in shamanic
procedures, healing ceremonies and rites of passage; the high-cultures
of Asia used them in various systems of yoga, Vipassana or Zen Buddhism,
Tibetan Vajrayana, Taoism, and Sufism. The semitic cultures used them in
Cabalah, the ancient Egyptians in the temple initiations of Isis and
Osiris; the classical Greeks in Bacchanalia and the rites of Attis and
Adonis as well as in the Eleusinian mysteries. Until the advent of
Western industrial civilization, almost all cultures held such states in
high esteem for the remarkable experiences they convey and the powers of
personal healing and interpersonal contact and communication they render
accessible.[9] 

Today, at the leading edge of the contemporary sciences, research on
altered states of consciousness is becoming accepted as a legitimate
part of the new discipline known as "consciousness research." The
insight that surfaces is, as Charles Tart noted, that altered states
tend to make our connections to each other and to our environment more
evident. Grof's records of the verbal reports of his patients makes this
very clear. [10] 

In the "experience of dual unity" a patient in an ASC experiences a
loosening and melting of the boundaries of the body ego and a sense of
merging with another person in a state of unity and oneness. In this
experience, despite the feeling of being fused with another, the patient
retains an awareness of his or her own identity. Then, in the experience
of "identification with other persons," the patient, while merging
experientially with another person, has a sense of complete
identification to the point of losing the awareness of his or her own
identity. Identification is total and complex, involving body image,
physical sensations, emotional reactions and attitudes, thought
processes, memories, facial expression, typical gestures and mannerisms,
postures, movement, and even the inflection of the voice. The "other"
(or others) can be someone in the presence of the patient or someone
absent; he or she can be part of an experience from the subject's
childhood, his or her ancestry, or even of a previous lifetime. 

In "group identification and group consciousness" there is a further
extension of consciousness and melting of ego boundaries. Rather than
identifying with individual persons, the patient has a sense of becoming
an entire group of people who share some racial, cultural, national,
ideological, political, or professional characteristics. The depth,
scope, and intensity of this experience can reach extraordinary
proportions: people may experience the totality of suffering of all the
soldiers who have ever died on the battlefield since the beginning of
history, the desire of revolutionaries of all ages to overthrow a
tyrant, or the love, tenderness and dedication of all mothers in regard
to their babies. Identification can focus on a social or political
group, the people of an entire country or continent, all members of a
race, or all believers of a religion. 

"Identification with animals" goes beyond the human transpersonal
dimension: it involves a complete and realistic identification with
members of various animal species. The experience can be authentic and
convincing, including body image, specific physiological sensations,
instinctual drives, unique perceptions of the environment, and the
corresponding emotional reactions. The nature and scope of these
experiences distinguish them from ordinary human experiences; they often
transcend the scope of fantasy and imagination. 

While less frequent, "identification with plants and botanical
processes" occurs as well. On occasion, patients have a complex
experience of becoming a tree, a wild or garden flower, a carnivorous
plant, kelp, Volvox globator, plankton in the ocean, a bacterial
culture, or an individual bacterium. In the still more embracing
experience of "oneness with life and all creation", an individual
expands his or her consciousness to such an extent that it encompasses
the totality of life on this planet, including all of humanity and all
the flora and fauna of the biosphere. Instead of identification with one
living organism, the patient identifies with life itself as a cosmic
phenomenon. 

Experience in ASCs can also penetrate beyond the sphere of life: it can
include the macroscopic and microscopic phenomena of the inorganic
world. In the "experience of inanimate matter and inorganic processes",
patients report experiential identification with the waters of rivers
and oceans, with various forms of fire, with the earth and with
mountains, and with the forces unleashed in natural catastrophes such as
electric storms, earthquakes, tornadoes, and volcanic eruptions. They
can identify with specific materials, such as diamonds and other
precious stones, quartz crystals, amber, granite, iron, steel,
quicksilver, silver, and gold. The experiences extend into the
microworld and may involve the dynamic structure of molecules and atoms,
Brownian motions, interatomic bonds, electromagnetic forces, and
subatomic particles. Grof concludes that every process in the universe
that in an ordinary state of consciousness can be objectively observed,
can also be subjectively experienced in an altered state. 

The cosmic dimensions of altered- state experiences can encompass all of
the planet Earth. In "planetary consciousness" the subject's
consciousness expands to the Earth's geological substance with its
mineral kingdom, and its biosphere with all its life forms. The Earth as
a whole appears to be one complex organism, oriented toward its own
evolution, integration, and self-actualization. In "extraterrestrial
experiences" — a further expanded form of consciousness — other
celestial bodies and astronomical processes are included. The subject
can experience travelling to the moon, sun, other planets, stars, and
galaxies; he or she can experience explosions of supernovas, contraction
of stars, quasars and pulsars, even passage through black holes. The
experience can occur in the form of simply witnessing such events, or of
actually becoming them, experiencing them intimately, as if being a part
of the experienced thing or event. At the widest (and comparatively
rare) form of this experience — "identification with the entire physical
universe" — the subject has the feeling that his or her consciousness
encompasses the entire cosmos. All its processes are experienced as part
of the organism and psyche of the all-encompassing universe-system. 

In addition to the spatially expanded forms of consciousness, there are
experiences that recall OBEs (out- of- body experiences), clairvoyance,
clairaudience, and telepathy. More relevant for our purposes are
experiences involving a displacement in time. Time-displacement
experiences range from "embryonal and fetal experiences," where the
subject recalls his or her intrauterine experiences as a fetus, through
"ancestral experiences" involving identification with one's biological
ancestors, "racial and collective experiences" where those involved are
not one's direct ancestors but members of the same race, or sometimes
the entire human species (suggestive of Jung's "collective unconscious",
of which more will be said later), all the way to "past incarnation
experiences." The essential characteristic of the latter is a convinced
sense of remembering something that had already happened to oneself.
Subjects maintain their sense of individuality and personal identity,
but experience themselves in another form, at another place and time,
and in another context. In these reincarnation-type experiences the
birth of the individual appears as a point of transformation, where the
enduring record of multiple lifetimes enters the bio-psychological life
of the individual. According to Grof, the memories that surface in past
incarnation experiences share with other transpersonal experiences the
capacity to provide instant and direct extrasensory access to
information about some aspect of the world. If so, all divisions and
boundaries in the universe are illusory and arbitrary; in the last
analysis it is only a cosmic consciousness that actually exists.[11] 

Toward an Explanation: (a) Jung's unus mundus

What explanation can we give for the varied yet remarkably consistent
phenomena unearthed in controlled psi-experiments and in the work of
Grof and other psychotherapists with patients in altered states of
consciousness? Just what is the nature of the "cosmic consciousness" —
or similar factor — that would connect our psyche with the world at
large? 

Carl Jung, fascinated with this seemingly esoteric aspect of the human
psyche, attempted an explanation in terms of a higher or deeper reality
that would connect human minds with each other as well as with physical
reality. He was led to his explanatory concept by a comparison of
unconscious processes in individuals with the myths, legends and
folktales of a variety of cultures at various periods of history. Jung
found that the individual records and the collective material contain
common themes. This prompted him to postulate the existence of a
collective aspect of the pysche: the "collective unconscious." The
dynamic principles that organize this material are the "archetypes."
Archetypes are irrepresentable in themselves, but have effects that make
visualizations possible: these are the archetypal images and ideas.[12]
"The archetype as such is a psychoid factor that belongs, as it were, to
the invisible, ultraviolet end of the psychic spectrum. It does not
appear, in itself, to be capable of reaching consciousness."[13] 

While in the realm of the spirit, at the upper, "ultraviolet" end of the
psychic spectrum, archetypes are dynamic organizers of ideas and images,
at the lower, "infrared" end of the spectrum the biological instinctual
psyche shades into the physiology of the organism, merging with its
chemical and physical conditions. As Jung noted, "...the position of the
archetype would be located beyond the psychic sphere, analogous to the
position of physiological instinct, which is immediately rooted in the
stuff of the organism and, with its psychoid nature, forms the bridge to
matter in general.[14] 

Jung formulated his concept of the archetype in collaboration with
Wolfgang Pauli. He was struck by the fact that while his own research
into the human psyche led to an encounter with such "irrepresentables"
as the archetypes, research in quantum physics had likewise led to
"irrepresentables": the micro-particles of the physical universe,
entities for which no complete description appeared possible. 

Jung concluded, "When the existence of two or more irrepresentables is
assumed, there is always the possibility — which we tend to overlook —
that it may not be a question of two or more factors, but of one
only."[15] The single factor that underlies the irrepresentables of
physics and of psychology may be the same as that which underlies the
synchronicites Jung had investigated: meaningful coincidences that tie
together in an acausal connectedness the physical and the psychological
worlds. The common factor that would underlie and connect these worlds
Jung named "unus mundus." The foundation for the unus mundus is "...that
the multiplicity of the empirical world rests on an underlying unity,
and that not two or more fundamentally different worlds exist side-by-
side or are mingled with one another."[16] 

As Charles Card summarized, "The realms of mind and of matter—psyche and
physis— are complementary aspects of the same transcendental reality,
the unus mundus. Archetypes act as the fundamental dynamical patterns
whose various representations characterize all processes, whether
mental or physical. In the realm of the psyche, archetypes organize
images and ideas. In the realm of physis, they organize the structure
and transformations of matter and energy, and they account for acausal
orderedness as well. Archetypes acting simultaneously in both the realms
of psyche and physis account for instances of synchronistic
phenomena."[17] 

Jung's relates the subtle connections that appear in synchronistic
events involving the psyche of different individuals, as well as the
psyche of one person and the physical world around that person, to an
underlying reality that emerges in the form of archetypes. The
fundamental reality — the unus mundus — is itself neither psychic nor
physical: it stands above, or lies beyond, both psyche and physis. 

Toward an Explanation: (b) The Quantum Vacuum

Jung's concept points the way toward a fruitful avenue of research: a
deeper reality that connects mind and mind, and mind and matter. This
approach should enter the current stream of consciousness research. For
the present, most researchers seek an explanation of mental events
mainly in terms of physical processes in the brain. But henceforth the
mental events to explain should include not only the workings of the
individual brain but, in light of the findings of psi-experimenters
and psychotherapists, the subtle connections that link human brains with
each other and with the world at large. 

It seems likely that world and brain — cosmos and consciousness — are
interconnected by a continuous information-conserving and transmitting
field.18—— (see The Interconnected Universe. World Scientific, Singapore
and London, 1995; ——, The Whispering Pond. Element Books, London and New
York, 1996 (in press).) Such a field cannot be postulated in an ad hoc
manner — science must respect the law laid down by William of Occam in
the 14th century: entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity.
New entities — which can also be forces or fields — can only be
postulated, when doing so is the simplest, the most economical and the
most rational way of explaining a given set of findings and
observations. [Continued...]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 14 23:43:30 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA21300;
	Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:38:38 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:38:38 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980715143254.008ec790 cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:32:54 +0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: How 'FREE-ENERGY' is implicated in CONVENTIONAL
  ELECTRODYNAMICS!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <35AD18AB.AFE3DEA4 ihug.co.nz>
References: <328e8acd.35ab74ff aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"dzh921.0.gC5.gv4hr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20612
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi John,

>Look at the attached .gif and tell me what part is wrong, Is the magnetic
field
>not as I say it is? Is it not in circles around the electron? do I have the
>direction of the field wrong?  Does it not depend on relative velocity to the
>electron to see the magnetic field? Will the magnetic field not expand out
and
>move from the electron (with acceleration)? Does a moving magnetic field not
>create a force on electrical charges? Is this force not at right angels to
the
>motion and the magnetic field? Is the direction of the magnetic field and
it's
>motion (due to expansion) not at right angels to each other and the electrons
>motion (they are not all three mutually orthogonal)? So why do you say
that the
>two electrons with growing speed relative to each other not have a force
that is
>increasing there relative velocity?

Since you have generated such a beautiful .gif to illustrate your
example, I will make a suggestion as to why there is no energy to
be gained in this manner.  I can see nothing wrong with the 
directions etc of your fields and forces.  But it is more a case
of "how much acceleration is given to the electrons heading in
the opposite direction, by a unit of acceleration given to a bunch
of electrons heading in the primary direction?"  If it is less than
unity, then it must exponentially die away as a microphone-amplifier-
speaker system which is just below self-oscillation.  If it is
greater than unity, then for sure away it will go.

My intuitive understanding of electrons being accellerated may be
described in terms of a bunch of balloons in air.  If you hit one
of the balloons with a tennis ball to accelerate it, then all the
other balloons accellerate (a little) in the opposite direction
because of the air being displaced by the hit balloon.  In a very
similar manner, all electrons in the neibourhood of a hit electron
will jump (a little) in the reverse direction.  (With electric and
magnetic flux, there is no viscosity in the "fluid" and it is also
incompressible).  This is Lenzes rule in operation.  As a result
the energy you have tried to impart to the one electron, does not
all end up in that electron, but a little is "wasted" on the
neibouring charges when they accelerate in the opposite sense.
Likewise if you were to suddenly accellerate all the neibouring
electrons while leaving the one free, it would accellerate rather
rapidly in the opposite direction, like a little fountain that
squirts up through a little hole in a stiff plate when it is
accellerated through water.  So there is no energy to be gained,
it is just that the energy you put into accelerating your electrons
in one direction does not all end up with them, but some goes
towards accellerating the others in the opposite direction.

Hope this helps.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 01:28:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA20896;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 01:27:09 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 01:27:09 -0700
Message-ID: <35AD72E6.BD8F97CC ihug.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:26:31 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: How 'FREE-ENERGY' is implicated in CONVENTIONAL
	  ELECTRODYNAMICS!!!!!
References: <328e8acd.35ab74ff aol.com> <3.0.1.32.19980715143254.008ec790@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"29LF83.0.L65.SV6hr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20614
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



John Winterflood wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> >Look at the attached .gif and tell me what part is wrong, Is the magnetic
> field
> >not as I say it is? Is it not in circles around the electron? do I have the
> >direction of the field wrong?  Does it not depend on relative velocity to the
> >electron to see the magnetic field? Will the magnetic field not expand out
> and
> >move from the electron (with acceleration)? Does a moving magnetic field not
> >create a force on electrical charges? Is this force not at right angels to
> the
> >motion and the magnetic field? Is the direction of the magnetic field and
> it's
> >motion (due to expansion) not at right angels to each other and the electrons
> >motion (they are not all three mutually orthogonal)? So why do you say
> that the
> >two electrons with growing speed relative to each other not have a force
> that is
> >increasing there relative velocity?
>
> Since you have generated such a beautiful .gif to illustrate your
> example, I will make a suggestion as to why there is no energy to
> be gained in this manner.  I can see nothing wrong with the
> directions etc of your fields and forces.  But it is more a case
> of "how much acceleration is given to the electrons heading in
> the opposite direction, by a unit of acceleration given to a bunch
> of electrons heading in the primary direction?"  If it is less than
> unity, then it must exponentially die away as a microphone-amplifier-
> speaker system which is just below self-oscillation.  If it is
> greater than unity, then for sure away it will go.
>
> My intuitive understanding of electrons being accellerated may be
> described in terms of a bunch of balloons in air.  If you hit one
> of the balloons with a tennis ball to accelerate it, then all the
> other balloons accellerate (a little) in the opposite direction
> because of the air being displaced by the hit balloon.  In a very
> similar manner, all electrons in the neibourhood of a hit electron
> will jump (a little) in the reverse direction.  (With electric and
> magnetic flux, there is no viscosity in the "fluid" and it is also
> incompressible).  This is Lenzes rule in operation.  As a result
> the energy you have tried to impart to the one electron, does not
> all end up in that electron, but a little is "wasted" on the
> neibouring charges when they accelerate in the opposite sense.

This is incorrect as both electrons are accelerated, the "hit" electron by the
stationary one and visa versa, if you maintain that the stationary ones have have
this force placed on them the same force must be placed on the 'hit' electron, The
hit electron 'sees' the field from the stationary ones just as the stationary ones
see the field from the moving one, you may not understand how the moving electron
can see a field from stationary electrons but that is because they are not
stationary relative to the moving electron, so if you agree that the stationary
electrons are forced by the moving one it must also go the other way as it is
unimportant which accelerates or is moving because the relative motion and
increase in motion is what is important.

> Likewise if you were to suddenly accellerate all the neibouring
> electrons while leaving the one free, it would accellerate rather
> rapidly in the opposite direction, like a little fountain that
> squirts up through a little hole in a stiff plate when it is
> accellerated through water.  So there is no energy to be gained,
> it is just that the energy you put into accelerating your electrons
> in one direction does not all end up with them, but some goes
> towards accellerating the others in the opposite direction.
>
> Hope this helps.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 02:23:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA25241;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 02:21:24 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 02:21:24 -0700
Message-ID: <35AD7F98.73C56CDE ihug.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:20:41 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: How 'FREE-ENERGY' is implicated in CONVENTIONAL
		  ELECTRODYNAMICS!!!!!
References: <328e8acd.35ab74ff aol.com> <3.0.1.32.19980715143254.008ec790@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> <35AD72E6.BD8F97CC@ihug.co.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"t380W1.0.HA6.KI7hr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20615
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

resend with corrections

John Berry wrote:

> John Winterflood wrote:
>
> > Hi John,
> >
> > >Look at the attached .gif and tell me what part is wrong, Is the magnetic
> > field
> > >not as I say it is? Is it not in circles around the electron? do I have the
> > >direction of the field wrong?  Does it not depend on relative velocity to the
> > >electron to see the magnetic field? Will the magnetic field not expand out
> > and
> > >move from the electron (with acceleration)? Does a moving magnetic field not
> > >create a force on electrical charges? Is this force not at right angels to
> > the
> > >motion and the magnetic field? Is the direction of the magnetic field and
> > it's
> > >motion (due to expansion) not at right angels to each other and the electrons
> > >motion (they are not all three mutually orthogonal)? So why do you say
> > that the
> > >two electrons with growing speed relative to each other not have a force
> > that is
> > >increasing there relative velocity?
> >
> > Since you have generated such a beautiful .gif to illustrate your
> > example, I will make a suggestion as to why there is no energy to
> > be gained in this manner.  I can see nothing wrong with the
> > directions etc of your fields and forces.  But it is more a case
> > of "how much acceleration is given to the electrons heading in
> > the opposite direction, by a unit of acceleration given to a bunch
> > of electrons heading in the primary direction?"  If it is less than
> > unity, then it must exponentially die away as a microphone-amplifier-
> > speaker system which is just below self-oscillation.  If it is
> > greater than unity, then for sure away it will go.
> >
> > My intuitive understanding of electrons being accellerated may be
> > described in terms of a bunch of balloons in air.  If you hit one
> > of the balloons with a tennis ball to accelerate it, then all the
> > other balloons accellerate (a little) in the opposite direction
> > because of the air being displaced by the hit balloon.  In a very
> > similar manner, all electrons in the neibourhood of a hit electron
> > will jump (a little) in the reverse direction.  (With electric and
> > magnetic flux, there is no viscosity in the "fluid" and it is also
> > incompressible).  This is Lenzes rule in operation.  As a result
> > the energy you have tried to impart to the one electron, does not
> > all end up in that electron, but a little is "wasted" on the
> > neibouring charges when they accelerate in the opposite sense.
>
> This is incorrect as both electrons have this force placed on them, the "hit"
> electron by the stationary one and visa versa, if you maintain that the stationary
> electrons have
> this force placed on them the same force must be placed on the 'hit' electron, The
> hit electron 'sees' the field from the stationary electrons just as the stationary
> electrons
> see the field from the moving one, you may not understand how the moving electron
> can see a field from stationary electrons but that is because they are not
> stationary relative as from the moving electron's view they are moving, so if you
> agree that the stationary electrons are forced by the moving one it must also go the
> other way as it is unimportant which accelerates or is moving because the relative
> motion and
> increase in motion is what is important.
>
> > Likewise if you were to suddenly accellerate all the neibouring
> > electrons while leaving the one free, it would accellerate rather
> > rapidly in the opposite direction, like a little fountain that
> > squirts up through a little hole in a stiff plate when it is
> > accellerated through water.  So there is no energy to be gained,
> > it is just that the energy you put into accelerating your electrons
> > in one direction does not all end up with them, but some goes
> > towards accellerating the others in the opposite direction.
> >
> > Hope this helps.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 02:35:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA26809;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 02:32:51 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 02:32:51 -0700
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:31:19 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: How 'FREE-ENERGY' is implicated in CONVENTIONAL ELECTRODYNAMICS!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <35AD72E6.BD8F97CC ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980715101343.1687A-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"pKQdK2.0.pY6.2T7hr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20616
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John,

Sorry if I am unable to continue this thread until the weekend, it 
probably resolve by then.

Nice diagrams!
Fig. 1 Doing my righthand grip rule. The thumb is in the direction of 
'conventional current', positive current? I always forget. Anyway, in fig 
1. you show a counterclockwise rotation, ie. on RHS field lines down into 
paper.

In fig. 2 you change this. On RHS you say the field lines are coming out 
of paper.

Directions are very important here which is why I will check that rule 
and whether it is conventional current. Anyway, if one is consistent, it 
won't matter.

Fig. 3 paraphrasing 'field increases and expands out'. Yes but, do we have 
to consider the finite propogation time of the field? It's up to you if 
you think it relevant. I'm confused.

I think what you mean is that the field becomes stronger, it's like 
looking down a hill, potential well. It becomes steeper. I'd say the 
field lines were becoming more compact and moving away from me.

Still thinking,
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 03:21:04 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA30290;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 03:20:21 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 03:20:21 -0700
Message-ID: <35AD8D72.4745F38E ihug.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:19:47 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: How 'FREE-ENERGY' is implicated in CONVENTIONAL ELECTRODYNAMICS!!!!!
References: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980715101343.1687A-100000 iesun9>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"40o8i.0.CP7.b98hr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20617
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Remi Cornwall wrote:

> John,
>
> Sorry if I am unable to continue this thread until the weekend, it
> probably resolve by then.
>
> Nice diagrams!
> Fig. 1 Doing my righthand grip rule. The thumb is in the direction of
> 'conventional current', positive current? I always forget. Anyway, in fig
> 1. you show a counterclockwise rotation, ie. on RHS field lines down into
> paper.

Much simpler to remember your left hand is negative and point your left thumb
the direction of electrons and use your right hand when dealing with protons
and other positive particles.

>
>
> In fig. 2 you change this. On RHS you say the field lines are coming out
> of paper.

I did not change the direction, In both 1 and 2 (and all the rest) the
magnetic field is such that on the right side of the electron the field is
coming out of the screen, or to put it another way it is anticlock wise from
behind. (so the electron is traveling away from you)

> Directions are very important here which is why I will check that rule
> and whether it is conventional current. Anyway, if one is consistent, it
> won't matter.

>
>
> Fig. 3 paraphrasing 'field increases and expands out'. Yes but, do we have
> to consider the finite propogation time of the field? It's up to you if
> you think it relevant. I'm confused.

It is not at all.

> I think what you mean is that the field becomes stronger, it's like
> looking down a hill, potential well. It becomes steeper. I'd say the
> field lines were becoming more compact and moving away from me.
>
> Still thinking,
> Remi.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 05:08:02 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA07279;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 05:07:03 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 05:07:03 -0700
Message-ID: <35AC9B38.7B971CA GroupZ.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:06:16 -0400
From: sno <sno GroupZ.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rmforall earthlink.net
CC: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Wild(?) question on zero point field
References: <35AC4045.7BA6 earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"w4LuK.0.bn1.cj9hr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20618
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

After reading Rich Murray posts of 14 Jul 1998,
Laszlo: Mind $ Quantum vacuum theory, part 1 $ 2,
I feel I need to bring out something I have been
thinking about for some time.

Could the zero point field meet the requirements for this
thing that people call "God".

Suppositions:
  1. The zero point field exists.
  2. It is of sufficient complexity to support intelligence,in itself.
(maybe not exactly as we know it, or originally not 
exactly)
   3. The theories outlined in the referenced posts by
Rich Murray are correct, or approximately correct
(after all they are theories <G>)

God always was and always will be.
   Does this apply to the zero point field - did this
field exist before matter was created?

God is everywhere.
    Does this apply to the zero point field?

Everything is part of God and connected to Him.
    Does this apply to the zero point field.
-----------------------------------------------
My beliefs:

    There is a God. (if you want to know why I believe
this will answer via private EMAIL)

Remote sensing (at least) is possible.  Based on life
experiences and research of literature.

Any comments would be appreciated, if you feel this is off 
topic for this forum I apologize in advance.....thank you....
steve opelc

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 05:57:07 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA13633;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 05:54:39 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 05:54:39 -0700
Message-ID: <35ACA45B.36F2 skylink.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 05:45:15 -0700
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
References: <v03007805b1d00c5f85a7 [198.133.146.230]> <v03007807b1d131a46cb7@[198.133.146.230]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"RlSfH1.0.xK3.EQAhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20619
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:
> For the record, the complete field
> generated by an oscillating magnetic dipole is:
> 
> radial (longitudinal) component of B:
>   2 cos(theta) [(jkr)^-2  + (jkr)^-3] exp[-j(kr - wt)]
> 
> theta (transverse poloidal) component of B:
>   sin(theta) [(jkr)^-1 +(jkr)^-2  + (jkr)^-3] exp[-j(kr - wt)]
> 
> phi (transverse azimuthal) component of E:
>   sin(theta) [(jkr)^-1  + (jkr)^-2] exp[-j(kr - wt)]
> 
> with a group of constants in front of each.

You're right, I am not thinking right about the divergence. 
I guess we should calculate divB for the above mess of magnetic
factors. Must probably be zero. But I believe there is still a 
problem with the line of flux along the polar axis. See comments
below. 
 
> The j = sqrt(-1) indicates a 90 degree phase shift. It must be kept when
> comparing terms, and calculating things like divergences and the Poynting
> vector.

It is a constant. You can put it anywhere you want, and remember to
deal with it when pulling out the real part of the exp factor.

Now, about your rubber band analogy, and the problem of the
longitudinal flux line on the polar axis. 

> let's go back to the rubber band analogy,
> represented in poor ascii art.
> 
> polar
> axis
>  |
>  |  ____
>  |( __   \
>  |     \  \
>  |      \  \
>  |______ |  | ___
>  |       |  |    equatorial plane
>  |      /  /
>  |  __ /  /
>  |( ____/
>  | 
> Like B, the runner band neither starts nor ends. 
> This represents div B = 0.

There is also a flux line along the polar axis, which exists only 
in the radial direction. This flux line is not shown on your drawing, 
nor on any of the textbook graphics. This flux line does not form a 
closed loop. It starts at the dipole and extends to infinity. The 
source of confusion has been this flux line. And still partly is. 

In the case of this flux line, the dual of the electric and magnetic 
dipole is broken. In the case of the electric dipole, divD is not
zero at the dipole. In the case of the magnetic current loop dipole
it is zero at the dipole (flux line passes through the middle of 
the current loop and extends to + and - infinity -- in the steady 
state. But what steady state? The radial flux line is a travelling
wave. It can never really reach infinity. At the leading edge of 
the travel of this flux line, it seems divB must be non-zero.

Also this singular flux line is bipolar -- changing polarity in
space over each half wavelength of the travelling longitudinal wave. 
Yet along the singularity of this line, it can not never form a 
closed loop. This can not happen unless divB is non-zero. 

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 06:01:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA14726;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:00:07 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:00:07 -0700
Message-ID: <35ACA5A5.3F63 skylink.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 05:50:45 -0700
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
References: <3.0.1.32.19980711085434.006994b8 pophost.nor.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"DFOER1.0.0c3.MVAhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20620
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

mindtech nor.com.au wrote:

> >It seems a practical matter to measure the wave
> >speed (phase delay) of  the longitudinal H field in the spacial direction
> >orthogonal to the direction of conventional radiation.
> >
> 
> What are you suggesting be used as a detector?

Some type of RF field measuring instrument. I am not an RF
engineer, and have nothing specific in mind. But, instruments
which could do this are used routinely in the cellular radio 
industry.

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 06:21:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA27545;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:19:43 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:19:43 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199807151312.JAA16719 mail.enter.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <chronos mailman.enter.net>
From: "Robert G. Flower" <chronos mail.enter.net>
Organization: Applied Science Associates
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:46:46 -0500
Subject: QUANTUM-MIND listserv on quantum mechanics and consciousness
Reply-to: chronos enter.net
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52)
Resent-Message-ID: <"BSLmd1.0.Jk6.jnAhr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20621
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


This may be of interest to some on Vortex:


                         QUANTUM-MIND
             Now Open for Subscription and Submissions

To subscribe send the following message from your home email to 
                  listserv listserv.arizona.edu
         subscribe quantum-mind yourfirstname yourlastname  

To submit, send your message to quantum-mind listserv.arizona.edu


QUANTUM-MIND is a new moderated listserv (e-mail forum) for
discussion of quantum approaches to consciousness. 

Sponsored by Consciousness Studies at the University of Arizona and
the Intuition Network, QUANTUM-MIND will be devoted to high-quality
and rigorous discussion of possible links between quantum mechanics
and consciousness.

Longstanding problems concerning the role of consciousness in the
interpretation of quantum mechanics, coupled with a growing body of
research focusing on quantum effects in the brain, have led to a
variety of proposals suggesting deep connections between these areas.
The advent of quantum information technologies promises inevitable
further connections.

Submissions to QUANTUM-MIND will be evaluated by co-moderators who
include Lawrence Crowell, Robert Flower, Stuart Hameroff, Rhett
Savage, Erick von Schweber, and Saul-Paul Sirag.  Skeptical criticism
is welcome and appreciated. Periodic overviews of particular threads
and topics will be provided, and postings will be archived on an
accessible website.

Topics discussed on QUANTUM-MIND will include:

1)  Features of consciousness resistant to classical explanations
(subjective experience, "qualia", binding, pre-conscious to conscious
transitions, non-computability, free will, non-local anomalies,
apparent backwards time referral etc.).

2)  Interpretations of quantum mechanics and the nature of reality
(the measurement problem, Bohm's theory, Everett's theory, collapse
interpretations, many-minds interpretations, Schrodinger's cat,
Wigner's friend, Bell's theorem, observer effects, quantum gravity,
quantum field theory). 

3)  Possible macroscopic and microscopic brain loci for quantum
effects relevant to consciousness (thalamocortical loops, dendritic
webs, membranes/membrane proteins, synapses, ion fluxes, 
microtubules, pre-synaptic vesicular grids, water, glia, gap
junctions, etc.).

4)  Potentially relevant quantum mechanisms in the brain (quantum
coherence, superposition, evanescent  photons, tunneling, vacuum
ground states, Bose-Einstein condensates, collapse including 
objective reduction, decoherence).

5)  Bioenergetics, isolation and biological feasibility issues
(thermal noise/decoherence, Frohlich  mechanism, ordered water,
actin gelation, protein conformational regulation, hydrophobic
pockets, anesthetic effects,  etc.).

6)  Philosophical approaches amenable to fundamental physics
(idealism, monism, dualism, panexperientialism, Whitehead, Russell,
Wheeler, Eastern approaches, etc.).

7)  Specific biological quantum consciousness models (Beck/Eccles,
Bohm/Hiley, Jibu/Yasue, Marshall, Penrose/Hameroff, Sarfatti, Stapp,
Vitiello, Walker, Wolf, etc.).

8)  Quantum information technology and theory (quantum computation,
quantum cryptography, quantum  teleportation, liquid NMR quantum
computing, counterfactuality).

9)  Experimental approaches (non-locality, time anomalies, quantum
correlations and coherence  in  biological systems, anesthetic
effects, collapse/reduction, etc.).

10)  Announcements, conferences, books, articles, etc.

--------------------------------


Best regards,

Bob Flower

=============================================
Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates
> Scientific Software & Instrumentation <
> Quality Control Engineering <
=============================================

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 08:23:40 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01958;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:22:07 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:22:07 -0700
Message-ID: <01BDAFDA.1CCA6740.stk sunherald.infi.net>
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Laszlo: Mind & quantum vacuum theory  Part 2/2  7/14/98
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:03:56 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"1URtS1.0.PU.UaChr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20622
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



-----Original Message-----
From:	Rich Murray [SMTP:rmforall earthlink.net]
Sent:	Wednesday, July 15, 1998 12:39 AM
To:	Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject:	Laszlo: Mind & quantum vacuum theory  Part 2/2  7/14/98

>Other interactions may exist as well. Some years ago, Hungarian
>physicist Lajos Janossy assigned "relativistic effects" (such as the
>slowing down of clocks when accelerated close to the speed of light,
>or the increasing of the mass of objects at those velocities) to the
>interaction of realworld objects with the vacuum's energy field. Close
>to the speed of light the matter-particles of objects rub against the
>force-particles (bosons) of the vacuum, and this friction slows down
>their processes and increases their mass. In this concept the ZPF of the
>vacuum is a physical field that interacts with the objects that move in
>space and time.

Who knows? Perhaps the relativity theory was a good prediction of what 
happens, but not quite enough to explain everything. Sort of how the 
original theories on sonic flight precluded supersonic flight, because at 
the speed of sound drag was supposed to become infinite. Now we know that 
if we shape aircraft correctly, we can travel faster than sound. Perhaps 
the same is true of the speed of light: mass becomes infinite at the speed 
of light, unless we generate a field of some special type, allowing us to 
travel faster than light.

Another though: If relativistic effects are just a result of the 
zero-point-field, and it fills all of space, would it make a very nice 
absolute frame of reference of the type theorized by Larmor, Lorentz, and 
Poincare? It would certainly explain relativistic effects as well as 
superluminal effects (preventing causality violations).

>Stochastic electro-dynamics, for example, produces a more "messy" math, 
but its
>tenets about the real world may be closer to realistic assumptions about
>the nature of reality. In any case, quantum electrodynamics, as other
>scientific theories, can always be reconsidered or extended.

No one ever said the universe would be simple to understand. The more I 
look at it, the more complex it seems. And personally, I wouldn't have it 
any other way :-)

All fundamental fields known to physics correspond to specific vacuum
polarization-states.

Three words: "Polarization modulated lasers"
I don't have the reference handy, but I will post it. (I think I did 
before) An experiment was conducted by placing ferromagnetic aerosols in a 
constant magnetic field that could be varied, and the aerosols were exposed 
to polarization modulated light. Magnetic monopoles seemed to appear.

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 09:46:42 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27755;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:44:01 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:44:01 -0700
From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
Message-Id: <v03007808b1d285af5115 [198.133.146.230]>
In-Reply-To: <35ACA45B.36F2 skylink.net>
References: <v03007805b1d00c5f85a7 [198.133.146.230]>
 <v03007807b1d131a46cb7 [198.133.146.230]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:10:47 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Resent-Message-ID: <"sJxmU2.0.Yn6.GnDhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20623
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Re:
radial (longitudinal) component of B:
   2 cos(theta) [(jkr)^-2  + (jkr)^-3] exp[-j(kr - wt)]

theta (transverse poloidal) component of B:
   sin(theta) [(jkr)^-1 +(jkr)^-2  + (jkr)^-3] exp[-j(kr - wt)]

phi (transverse azimuthal) component of E:
   sin(theta) [(jkr)^-1  + (jkr)^-2] exp[-j(kr - wt)]


 polar
 axis
  |
  |  ____
  |( __   \
  |     \  \
  |      \  \
  |______ |  | ___
  |       |  |    equatorial plane
  |      /  /
  |  __ /  /
  |( ____/
  |

Robert Stirniman wrote:

>I guess we should calculate divB for the above mess of magnetic
>factors. Must probably be zero.

Yes, div B = 0, and div E = 0, too. The calculation of div of the above
field is not difficult, just tedious.

>Now, about your rubber band analogy, and the problem of the
>longitudinal flux line on the polar axis.
>There is also a flux line along the polar axis, which exists only
>in the radial direction. This flux line is not shown on your drawing,
>nor on any of the textbook graphics. This flux line does not form a
>closed loop. It starts at the dipole and extends to infinity. The
>source of confusion has been this flux line. And still partly is.

The left parentheses "(" to represent the radial field. The figure is still
valid, both visually and mathematically, as the parentheses approach the
polar axis, with one modification: The parentheses get more and more shaped
like square brackets "[", and in so doing, the rubber band (or magnetic
flux tubes) thicken at the corners. Right at the axis the flux line is
actually the sum of an infinite number of infinitessimal contributions of
transverse flux tubes, the ones that come toward the poles from the
transverse wave surface where B_theta = 0, the wave null midway between two
transverse wave peaks.

>In the case of this flux line, the dual of the electric and magnetic
>dipole is broken. In the case of the electric dipole, divD is not
>zero at the dipole. In the case of the magnetic current loop dipole
>it is zero at the dipole (flux line passes through the middle of
>the current loop and extends to + and - infinity -- in the steady
>state.

The r^-2 radial field line appears to pass through the source. (Above the
equatorial plane, cos(theta) = +1, and B_r points upward at an appropriate
point in phase. Below the plane, cos(theta) = -1, but in this location
negative B_r points upward, still at the same point in phase. This is
consistent with the on-axis B component passing through the current loop
that comprises the magnetic dipole source.

The dual gets a bit complicated when we think about the sources. The EM
field we have written corresponds to the external field, the field outside
of the source. It is an exact solution to Maxwell's equations; no
approximations. It is one of the few exact, non plane-wave solutions that
can be written down with a small number of terms. The complete problem
requires specification of the source current distribution and internal
fields in a way consistent with Maxwell's equations, too. This turns out to
be a dipole made of oscillating azimuthal (phi) currents on the surface of
an infinitessimal sphere. The internal B is uniform and vertical and
continuous with the external B across the surface of the source.

The most direct electric diipole dual involves the introduction of
"magnetic current", a fiction, but one consistent with Maxwell's equations.
Then the electric dipole consists of azimuthal magnetic current on a
sphere. Then E_r passes naturally through the source. However, most people
find the fictional magnetic current unsatisfying. If we stay with just
static and moving ELECTRIC charges, a suitable electric dipole source
consistent with the corresponding external EM field is made with electric
charges distributed on the surfaces of two infitessimal hemispherical
domes, with an oscillating electric current  flowing poloidally on the
spherical surface between hemispheres to supply the oscillating charge on
the hemispheres. There are no fields inside the sphere. For this dipole the
radial E component terminates on the charge on the surface of the sphere,
still consistent with Maxwell's equations.

>But what steady state? The radial flux line is a travelling
>wave. It can never really reach infinity. At the leading edge of
>the travel of this flux line, it seems divB must be non-zero.

Steady state, be it DC or a steady sinusoid, is also an idealization. It
takes infinite time for a steady state to be established, both by Fourier
analysis (general result) and by finite speed of propagation (specific to
wave systems). Steady state exists unchanged from t = minus infinity. The
steady state idealization is useful to simplify many problems, where we are
not interested in the transients of iniitiation or decay.  However, the
steady state solution obviously cannot be used at the transiently evolving
leading edge. One must solve Maxwell's equations for specific source signal
that has a start. Div B will still be zero at the leading edge if one
solves the equations correctly and completely. Of course, that is a more
difficult task when the time dependence is no longer simple, and it is not
ordinarily a topic addressed in introductory or intermediate textbooks.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 10:32:51 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA15242;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:29:04 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:29:04 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980715133920.0085b560 cnct.com>
X-Sender: knagel cnct.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:39:23 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel cnct.com>
Subject: Re: Wild(?) question on zero point field
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"pMLKS3.0._j3.VREhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20624
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Could the zero point field meet the requirements for this
>thing that people call "God".

In the name of the anode, the cathode, and the holy grid.

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 11:14:36 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA31057;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:12:13 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:12:13 -0700
Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CCA xch-cpc-02>
From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Wild(?) question on zero point field
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:11:54 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"o_jbx2.0.Ab7.y3Fhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20625
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

If God is a Zero Point Field, what are the equations that describe her?
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	sno[SMTP:sno GroupZ.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Wednesday, July 15, 1998 5:06 AM
> To: 	rmforall earthlink.net
> Cc: 	Vortex-L eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Wild(?) question on zero point field
> 
> After reading Rich Murray posts of 14 Jul 1998,
> Laszlo: Mind $ Quantum vacuum theory, part 1 $ 2,
> I feel I need to bring out something I have been
> thinking about for some time.
> 
> Could the zero point field meet the requirements for this
> thing that people call "God".
> 
> Suppositions:
>   1. The zero point field exists.
>   2. It is of sufficient complexity to support intelligence,in itself.
> (maybe not exactly as we know it, or originally not 
> exactly)
>    3. The theories outlined in the referenced posts by
> Rich Murray are correct, or approximately correct
> (after all they are theories <G>)
> 
> God always was and always will be.
>    Does this apply to the zero point field - did this
> field exist before matter was created?
> 
> God is everywhere.
>     Does this apply to the zero point field?
> 
> Everything is part of God and connected to Him.
>     Does this apply to the zero point field.
> -----------------------------------------------
> My beliefs:
> 
>     There is a God. (if you want to know why I believe
> this will answer via private EMAIL)
> 
> Remote sensing (at least) is possible.  Based on life
> experiences and research of literature.
> 
> Any comments would be appreciated, if you feel this is off 
> topic for this forum I apologize in advance.....thank you....
> steve opelc
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 11:50:45 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06765;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:48:07 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:48:07 -0700
Message-ID: <35ACF948.6957B819 GroupZ.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:47:36 -0400
From: sno <sno GroupZ.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Wild(?) question on zero point field
References: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CCA xch-cpc-02>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"9zrSw1.0.df1.dbFhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20626
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I would assume the same ones that describe the zero
point field...since all(?) mathematics describe something
that is made up of the field...all math would describe 
He/She/It....steve opelc

Scudder, Henry J wrote:
> 
> If God is a Zero Point Field, what are the equations that describe her?
> Hank
> 
> > ----------
> > From:         sno[SMTP:sno GroupZ.net]
> > Reply To:     vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Sent:         Wednesday, July 15, 1998 5:06 AM
> > To:   rmforall earthlink.net
> > Cc:   Vortex-L eskimo.com
> > Subject:      Wild(?) question on zero point field
> >
> > After reading Rich Murray posts of 14 Jul 1998,
> > Laszlo: Mind $ Quantum vacuum theory, part 1 $ 2,
> > I feel I need to bring out something I have been
> > thinking about for some time.
> >
> > Could the zero point field meet the requirements for this
> > thing that people call "God".
> >
> > Suppositions:
> >   1. The zero point field exists.
> >   2. It is of sufficient complexity to support intelligence,in itself.
> > (maybe not exactly as we know it, or originally not
> > exactly)
> >    3. The theories outlined in the referenced posts by
> > Rich Murray are correct, or approximately correct
> > (after all they are theories <G>)
> >
> > God always was and always will be.
> >    Does this apply to the zero point field - did this
> > field exist before matter was created?
> >
> > God is everywhere.
> >     Does this apply to the zero point field?
> >
> > Everything is part of God and connected to Him.
> >     Does this apply to the zero point field.
> > -----------------------------------------------
> > My beliefs:
> >
> >     There is a God. (if you want to know why I believe
> > this will answer via private EMAIL)
> >
> > Remote sensing (at least) is possible.  Based on life
> > experiences and research of literature.
> >
> > Any comments would be appreciated, if you feel this is off
> > topic for this forum I apologize in advance.....thank you....
> > steve opelc

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 13:31:57 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00589;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:28:46 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:28:46 -0700
Message-ID: <35AD1127.167 interlaced.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:29:27 -0400
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CNN - NASA to coordinate detection, tracking of asteroids and comets - July 15,
References: <000e01bdb023$d466e920$dc8f85ce default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"yKROX2.0.19.z3Hhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20628
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>
(snip asteroid page)

NASA's new Near-Earth Object
                  Program Office will follow at least 90
                  percent of the 2,000 estimated
                  Earth-approaching asteroids and comets that are at 		 
least two-thirds of a mile
                  wide, the space agency announced Tuesday.

Hey, Fred, doesn't NASA know what a Kansas hit of a 1/2 mile wide NEO
could do to their budget?  Sure as hell would screw up my pond!

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 13:47:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06114;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:44:50 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:44:50 -0700
Message-ID: <002401bdb030$e5a73020$dc8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: CNN - NASA to coordinate detection, tracking of asteroids and comets - July 15,
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:40:52 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"gie5n2.0.JV1.1JHhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20629
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Francis J. Stenger <fstenger interlaced.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 15, 1998 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: CNN - NASA to coordinate detection, tracking of asteroids and
comets - July 15,

Frank Stenger wrote:


>Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>>
>(snip asteroid page)
>
>NASA's new Near-Earth Object
>                  Program Office will follow at least 90
>                  percent of the 2,000 estimated
>                  Earth-approaching asteroids and comets that are at
>least two-thirds of a mile
>                  wide, the space agency announced Tuesday.
>
>Hey, Fred, doesn't NASA know what a Kansas hit of a 1/2 mile wide NEO
>could do to their budget?  Sure as hell would screw up my pond!

I think their budget spent on this is a good insurance policy, Frank.

Hell Frank, One Woodchuck screwed up your pond,just taking out the garbage.
:-)

I took my 13 & 12 year-old granddaughter and grandson to see Armageddon.
$12,00 for tickets
and $11.00 for some popcorn and a "coke" for them. I drank water. :-)

If you want to see a couple of Space Shuttles
maneuvering like F-16s, dodging debris around
a "Texas Sized" Asteroid as they approach it,and one of them making a "Dead
Stick" landing, go see the movie.Wear ear-plugs, too.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick
>
>Frank Stenger
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 14:45:48 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26084;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:42:39 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:42:39 -0700
Message-ID: <005201bdb038$f9538760$dc8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject:  USA - Cars and Light-Duty Trucks (http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us_light.
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:38:45 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004C_01BDB006.A74A5200"
Resent-Message-ID: <"1kl4N3.0.TN6.E9Ihr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20630
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_004C_01BDB006.A74A5200
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Auto Emissions. How California has changed.

http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us_light.html


------=_NextPart_000_004C_01BDB006.A74A5200
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name=" USA - Cars and Light-Duty Trucks.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename=" USA - Cars and Light-Duty Trucks.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us_light.html
Modified=C0E8AE8238B0BD017E

------=_NextPart_000_004C_01BDB006.A74A5200--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 14:59:26 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA31705;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:56:25 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:56:25 -0700
Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CCB xch-cpc-02>
From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: USA - Cars and Light-Duty Trucks (http://www.dieselnet.com/st
	andards/us_light.
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:55:59 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"48Rku1.0.Hl7.8MIhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20631
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frederick	
	I live 1000 feet up the side of a mountain at the west end of LA.
The San Fernando Valley lies out below my livingroom window. Every night
there is a purple-brown cloud lying across the valley, the top of which lies
about even with my window. Pretty to look at in some lights, but hard to
breath. Luckily for me with my asthma, most of the time there is a westerly
wind, but I am sure glad I don't live in Pasadena, against the mountains at
the east end of the view. Most of the time, I can't even see it.

Hank
> ----------
> From: 	Frederick J Sparber[SMTP:fjsparb sprintmail.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Wednesday, July 15, 1998 2:38 PM
> To: 	Vortex-L
> Subject: 	USA - Cars and Light-Duty Trucks
> (http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us_light.
> 
> <<File:  USA - Cars and Light-Duty Trucks.url>>
> Auto Emissions. How California has changed.
> 
> http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us_light.html
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 15:27:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12086;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:20:37 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:20:37 -0700
Message-ID: <000701bdb03e$3f72f000$358f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: USA - Cars and Light-Duty Trucks (http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us_light.
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:16:30 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"RCS1R2.0.Ty2.qiIhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20632
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Scudder, Henry J <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: 'vortex-l eskimo.com' <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 15, 1998 3:59 PM
Subject: RE: USA - Cars and Light-Duty Trucks
(http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us_light.

Hank,

What you are seeing is the residuals of the 1939 Pontiac club coupe (8
cylinder)($50.00 off the lot as is) that I drove around L.A. in ,in the
spring of 1953. :-)

If The battery (6 volt)  was up to snuff I could get it started . I walked a
lot. But I got
about 14 mpg on gas and a quart of oil every 40 miles. NO ONE passed me on
the Hollywood Freeway.  The guys at Gilfillan where I worked on GCA Radar
equipment had a betting pool on whether or not I would arrive or leave on
the
Pico Blvd. streetcar.

Took a girlfriend to see Frankie Laine at the Coconut Grove. I think the
parking attendants took their revenge out on RFK 15 years later. :-(

Regards


>Frederick
> I live 1000 feet up the side of a mountain at the west end of LA.
>The San Fernando Valley lies out below my livingroom window. Every night
>there is a purple-brown cloud lying across the valley, the top of which
lies
>about even with my window. Pretty to look at in some lights, but hard to
>breath. Luckily for me with my asthma, most of the time there is a westerly
>wind, but I am sure glad I don't live in Pasadena, against the mountains at
>the east end of the view. Most of the time, I can't even see it.
>
>Hank
>> ----------
>> From: Frederick J Sparber[SMTP:fjsparb sprintmail.com]
>> Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 1998 2:38 PM
>> To: Vortex-L
>> Subject: USA - Cars and Light-Duty Trucks
>> (http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us_light.
>>
>> <<File:  USA - Cars and Light-Duty Trucks.url>>
>> Auto Emissions. How California has changed.
>>
>> http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us_light.html
>>
>>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 16:19:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA30326;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:14:01 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:14:01 -0700
Message-ID: <35AD37F3.369 interlaced.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:14:59 -0400
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CNN - NASA to coordinate detection, tracking of asteroids and comets - July 15,
References: <002401bdb030$e5a73020$dc8f85ce default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"mNyHh3.0.mP7.uUJhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20633
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frederick J Sparber wrote:
> 

> I think their budget spent on this is a good insurance policy, Frank.

Actually, I do too, Fred!
> 

> If you want to see a couple of Space Shuttles
> maneuvering like F-16s, dodging debris around
> a "Texas Sized" Asteroid as they approach it,and one of them making a "Dead
> Stick" landing, go see the movie.Wear ear-plugs, too.  :-)

We did and we did, Fred!  My wife's a good sport.

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 18:03:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29107;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:00:05 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:00:05 -0700
Message-ID: <002f01bdb054$8b923c00$358f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: CNN - Three members of von Braun team die in same week - July 13, 1998 (http://
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:55:36 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0072_01BDB022.272429E0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"GC9aD2.0.e67.L2Lhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20634
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0072_01BDB022.272429E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I think the "Armageddon" Movie was more than they could handle, Frank. Ernst
Steinhoff, von Braun's Guidance Systems partner ran White Sands Missile
Range. We were acquainted for several years (after he retired we worked
together on a water desalinization project for the brackish Tularosa Basin
aquifer that is under most of WSMR)until he crashed his Mercedes and died in
a nursing home in Las Cruces, NM. These guys were
Darn good at what they did.

http://cnn.com/TECH/space/9807/13/obit.rocket.scientists.ap/index.html

------=_NextPart_000_0072_01BDB022.272429E0
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="CNN - Three members of von Braun team die in same week - July 13, 1998.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="CNN - Three members of von Braun team die in same week - July 13, 1998.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://cnn.com/TECH/space/9807/13/obit.rocket.scientists.ap/index.html
Modified=00DA76BA52B0BD01CA

------=_NextPart_000_0072_01BDB022.272429E0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 18:54:21 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11323;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:52:52 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:52:52 -0700
Message-ID: <003c01bdb05b$ebfa3dc0$358f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: The Space Center - Inductee list (http://www.zianet.com/space/inductee.html)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:48:39 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007B_01BDB029.90A4A960"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"rGEMq.0.qm2.ppLhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20635
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BDB029.90A4A960
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dr. Ernst Steinhoff was inducted into the
International Space Hall of Fame in 1979.
In addition to his pioneering work in Guidance Systems, he was a expert
pilot and had a passion for Sailplanes, and held World Records
in the 1930s.

Also lost a V2 early in the U.S. Rocket program. "It just
disappeared,finally found it in a cemetery South of the Border".  :-)

http://www.zianet.com/space/inductee.html

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BDB029.90A4A960
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="The Space Center - Inductee list.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="The Space Center - Inductee list.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.zianet.com/space/inductee.html
Modified=C0D3E0895AB0BD01C4

------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BDB029.90A4A960--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 19:18:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA18246;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:12:37 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:12:37 -0700
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 02:12:41 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35b0614c.165940736 mail-hub>
References: <3.0.5.32.19980712081515.0088d490 mail.eden.com> <199807112305_MC2-52D0-A7D8@compuserve.com> <3.0.1.32.19980713123920.00c6d4e0@spectre.mitre.org>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980713123920.00c6d4e0 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"1w2ba1.0.-S4.K6Mhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20636
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:39:20 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
[snip]
>     MgH2 + O2 --> Hg(OH)2
      ^^            ^^        Transmutation reaction ;)?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 19:35:22 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13833;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:33:07 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:33:07 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980716102732.0080f440 cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:27:32 +0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: How 'FREE-ENERGY' is implicated in CONVENTIONAL 
  ELECTRODYNAMICS!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <35AD7F98.73C56CDE ihug.co.nz>
References: <328e8acd.35ab74ff aol.com>
 <3.0.1.32.19980715143254.008ec790 cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
 <35AD72E6.BD8F97CC ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"vwtkg2.0.3O3.XPMhr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20637
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John Berry wrote:
>
>> John Winterflood wrote:
>>
>> My intuitive understanding of electrons being accellerated may be
>> described in terms of a bunch of balloons in air.  If you hit one
>> of the balloons with a tennis ball to accelerate it, then all the
>> other balloons accellerate (a little) in the opposite direction
>> because of the air being displaced by the hit balloon.  In a very
>> similar manner, all electrons in the neibourhood of a hit electron
>> will jump (a little) in the reverse direction.  (With electric and
>> magnetic flux, there is no viscosity in the "fluid" and it is also
>> incompressible).  This is Lenzes rule in operation.  As a result
>> the energy you have tried to impart to the one electron, does not
>> all end up in that electron, but a little is "wasted" on the
>> neibouring charges when they accelerate in the opposite sense.
>
> This is incorrect as both electrons have this force placed on them,
> the "hit" electron by the stationary one and visa versa, if you
> maintain that the stationary electrons have this force placed on
> them the same force must be placed on the 'hit' electron, The
> hit electron 'sees' the field from the stationary electrons just
> as the stationary electrons see the field from the moving one, you
> may not understand how the moving electron can see a field from
> stationary electrons but that is because they are not stationary
> relative as from the moving electron's view they are moving, so if
> you agree that the stationary electrons are forced by the moving
> one it must also go he other way as it is unimportant which
> accelerates or is moving because the relative motion and increase
> in motion is what is important.

I am not sure what it is that you are saying is incorrect although
you are probably right.  Let me give another example to illustrate
what I see is happening.  Suppose you have a coil of superconducting
wire wound around a non-laminated conductive core.  Now you try to
accellerate the electrons in the coil by some means.  By the same
effect as you have tried to describe, electrons in the conductive
core will also accellerate in the opposite direction - Eddy currents.
If you are trying to generate a magnetic field, then the effect of
this initial opposite motion is to tend to cancel the magnetic field
according to Lenzes rule.  Supposing the core is also superconducting
(make it a coil if you like - it makes no difference), now there is
no energy loss and the forced current in the primary and the induced
current in the core will continue to flow forever. So we have the
case that accelerating the one produces reverse acceleration in the
other, and vice-versa as per your example, but still there is no
tendency for the currents to "run-away".  Straighten these coils
out into two parallel paths and you have your example exactly -
except that we are confining the electron flow within super-
conducting wires rather than letting them float freely through a
vacuum.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 19:37:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25146;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:36:19 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:36:19 -0700
Message-ID: <006701bdb061$fcbe7b20$358f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:32:28 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"dQ0h42.0.X86.YSMhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20638
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 15, 1998 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death

Why not, Robin?     :-)

Regards,   Frederick


>On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:39:20 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
>[snip]
>>     MgH2 + O2 --> Hg(OH)2
>      ^^            ^^        Transmutation reaction ;)?
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 20:12:08 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18159;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:04:10 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:04:10 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35AE76D6.C0FD3C73 ihug.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:55:34 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: How 'FREE-ENERGY' is implicated in CONVENTIONAL 
	  ELECTRODYNAMICS!!!!!
References: <328e8acd.35ab74ff aol.com>
	 <3.0.1.32.19980715143254.008ec790 cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
	 <35AD72E6.BD8F97CC ihug.co.nz> <3.0.1.32.19980716102732.0080f440@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"AzJ4i2.0.eR4.esMhr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20639
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



John Winterflood wrote:

> John Berry wrote:
> >
> >> John Winterflood wrote:
> >>
> >> My intuitive understanding of electrons being accellerated may be
> >> described in terms of a bunch of balloons in air.  If you hit one
> >> of the balloons with a tennis ball to accelerate it, then all the
> >> other balloons accellerate (a little) in the opposite direction
> >> because of the air being displaced by the hit balloon.  In a very
> >> similar manner, all electrons in the neibourhood of a hit electron
> >> will jump (a little) in the reverse direction.  (With electric and
> >> magnetic flux, there is no viscosity in the "fluid" and it is also
> >> incompressible).  This is Lenzes rule in operation.  As a result
> >> the energy you have tried to impart to the one electron, does not
> >> all end up in that electron, but a little is "wasted" on the
> >> neibouring charges when they accelerate in the opposite sense.
> >
> > This is incorrect as both electrons have this force placed on them,
> > the "hit" electron by the stationary one and visa versa, if you
> > maintain that the stationary electrons have this force placed on
> > them the same force must be placed on the 'hit' electron, The
> > hit electron 'sees' the field from the stationary electrons just
> > as the stationary electrons see the field from the moving one, you
> > may not understand how the moving electron can see a field from
> > stationary electrons but that is because they are not stationary
> > relative as from the moving electron's view they are moving, so if
> > you agree that the stationary electrons are forced by the moving
> > one it must also go he other way as it is unimportant which
> > accelerates or is moving because the relative motion and increase
> > in motion is what is important.
>
> I am not sure what it is that you are saying is incorrect although
> you are probably right.  Let me give another example to illustrate
> what I see is happening.  Suppose you have a coil of superconducting
> wire wound around a non-laminated conductive core.  Now you try to
> accellerate the electrons in the coil by some means.  By the same
> effect as you have tried to describe, electrons in the conductive
> core will also accellerate in the opposite direction - Eddy currents.
> If you are trying to generate a magnetic field, then the effect of
> this initial opposite motion is to tend to cancel the magnetic field
> according to Lenzes rule.  Supposing the core is also superconducting
> (make it a coil if you like - it makes no difference), now there is
> no energy loss and the forced current in the primary and the induced
> current in the core will continue to flow forever. So we have the
> case that accelerating the one produces reverse acceleration in the
> other, and vice-versa as per your example, but still there is no
> tendency for the currents to "run-away".  Straighten these coils
> out into two parallel paths and you have your example exactly -
> except that we are confining the electron flow within super-
> conducting wires rather than letting them float freely through a
> vacuum.

  Yes, but the difference is that an electron accelerating in the wire
sees positive ions as having a relative motion (because we will
assume the wire started out with an equal number of positive
and negative charges, if you move the negative charges there are
more stationary positive charges than negative, so the electrons
that are moving will se more protons with relative motion to them
than electrons, so it will see a magnetic field from the protons) and
so they get the effect that I have been talking about, except it is
positive relative to negative so the opposite happens, as soon as
the electron accelerates it feels a field from the protons and it is
resisting their acceleration (though it will resist their deceleration
also) but if you had more stationary electrons they would see more
of a field from them than the protons so you would have reverse
induction, You are right an opposing coil will even out the deal
so that there is no induction positive or negative (because there
is relative motion between the electrons in the two wires but the
existence of the protons stops this from being a negative induction)
however if you charged such a coil (that had zero inductance) with
electrons and things around it negatively then there would be more
motion relative to electrons than protons, now you would have a
reverse induction, a negative inductance where acceleration and
deceleration is not resisted but helped, only the resistance of the
circuit and the inertia of the electrons resists anything.


John Berry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 20:42:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09809;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:38:00 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:38:00 -0700
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: WARNING!!
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 03:38:14 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35b37581.171115086 mail-hub>
References: <007c01bdae59$a84d4300$338f85ce default> <35AA14AB.2C0C@interlaced.net>
In-Reply-To: <35AA14AB.2C0C interlaced.net>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"145uZ1.0.AP2.NMNhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20640
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:07:39 -0400, Francis J. Stenger wrote:
[snip]
>order.  I sense an "Extinction level event" about to happen:
>
>	1. Jed and Scott act nice to each other.
>	2. Hell freezes over.
>	3. The central core of Earth shrinks from the cooling, leading
>	   to general compressive failure of the outer crust.
>	4. We all die.
>
>I'm outa here!!

Where are you going? ;)
>
>Frank Stinkfinger

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 20:48:05 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25398;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35AE804F.64E1149B ihug.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:36:00 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Did anyone understand how Marinovs motor worked?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ROrWc2.0.mC6.SSNhr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20641
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Did anyone understand how Marinovs motor worked? I am asking because I
did figure it out but was surprised that I did not hear anyone else
explain it, So did anyone else understand how it worked?

Do you want to hear how? You will kick your self that you did not see
it!


John Berry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 20:51:43 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13215;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:45:37 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:45:37 -0700
X-Authentication-Warning: sh.diac.com: ekwall2 owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:42:29 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Did anyone understand how Marinovs motor worked?
In-Reply-To: <35AE804F.64E1149B ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980715214128.12467B-100000 sh.diac.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"UOrOu2.0.KE3.WTNhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20642
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi John, 

   I'll Bite, (ouch>?), what did you figure out?
---------------------------------------------------------
On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, John Berry wrote:

Did anyone understand how Marinovs motor worked? I am asking because I
did figure it out but was surprised that I did not hear anyone else
explain it, So did anyone else understand how it worked?

Do you want to hear how? You will kick your self that you did not see
it!
John Berry


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 21:10:24 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA19539;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:08:46 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:08:46 -0700
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 04:09:00 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35b47ca4.172942417 mail-hub>
References: <006701bdb061$fcbe7b20$358f85ce default>
In-Reply-To: <006701bdb061$fcbe7b20$358f85ce default>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"m7RfH1.0.Dn4.EpNhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20643
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:32:28 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>Why not, Robin?     :-)

Theory says it's impossible! ;);).
>
>Regards,   Frederick
>
>
>>On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:39:20 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
>>[snip]
>>>     MgH2 + O2 --> Hg(OH)2
>>      ^^            ^^        Transmutation reaction ;)?
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 21:26:26 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23477;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:19:40 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:19:40 -0700
Message-ID: <35AD7F96.7835 interlaced.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 00:20:38 -0400
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: WARNING!!
References: <007c01bdae59$a84d4300$338f85ce default> <35AA14AB.2C0C@interlaced.net> <35b37581.171115086@mail-hub>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"k4CaG3.0.gk5.RzNhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20644
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> 
(snip my crack about Jed and Scott being nice to each other)

> >I'm outa here!!
> 
> Where are you going? ;)

Good question, Robin!  How about a sailplane with a LOT of coffee to
float over volcanic thermals as long as I can?  :-)

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 22:01:40 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04431;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:59:10 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:59:10 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35AE91CA.FBF64E8D ihug.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:50:35 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Did anyone understand how Marinovs motor worked?
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980715214128.12467B-100000 sh.diac.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9F966446EE75B624420B0ADE"
Resent-Message-ID: <"qmwqB1.0.851.RYOhr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20645
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------9F966446EE75B624420B0ADE
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Well it is simple matter to create a longitudinal force on a piece of
wire, imagine two wires that are parallel, the force is at right angels to
the wires but now have them not quite parallel the force will be, well not
quite at right angels as in pic, this is how many of the so called
longitudinal force arises, Now the marivov motor is clever as it does
something that most people would not understand even if they realized the
above, for one the interaction is wire to permanent magnet which does not
change a thing (it is just the same as electromagnets) but few would
realize this, magnets can just be thought of as bunches of superconducting
coils (they act the same), but what more it does is it keeps the magnetic
field inside the core, so now people assume that it must leak to have any
effect but that is totally wrong, there are so many instances that show
that the magnetic field does not have to be in the same space, Because any
motion relative to magnetic core with flux inside (even though none leaks
out) causes an induction force (which is a pumping E field and a moving E
field creates a magnetic field, don't believe me? put a NIB magnet
anywhere a transformer, you can test it and see how little flux gets out
when it is DC but put AC in and the magnetic field gets out) (as does a
change in the strength and we call it a transformer) but just motion will
do it, strange how people don't realize this because they start on
spurting junk like scalar fields and the arhinov-bohem  effect (Of course
the spelling is totally wrong,  but I am sure you know who I mean) anyway
magnetic flux does not have to be present for EM effects, only DC
stationary ferromagnetic stuff.


John Berry

Steve Ekwall wrote:

> Hi John,
>
>    I'll Bite, (ouch>?), what did you figure out?
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, John Berry wrote:
>
> Did anyone understand how Marinovs motor worked? I am asking because I
> did figure it out but was surprised that I did not hear anyone else
> explain it, So did anyone else understand how it worked?
>
> Do you want to hear how? You will kick your self that you did not see
> it!
> John Berry



--------------9F966446EE75B624420B0ADE
Content-Type: image/gif; name="MAGNETIC.GIF"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="MAGNETIC.GIF"
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--------------9F966446EE75B624420B0ADE--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 23:15:38 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA08242;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:11:38 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:11:38 -0700
Message-ID: <35AD80AD.6A85 earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:26:33 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Stearns, Jr.: beliefs create reality  7.15.98
Resent-Message-ID: <"fYJEp2.0.i02.PcPhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20646
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 23:22:41 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA10159;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:20:12 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:20:12 -0700
Message-ID: <35AE8329.9A2933C ihug.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:48:10 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: How 'FREE-ENERGY' is implicated in CONVENTIONAL in  ELECTRODYNAMICS!!!!!
References: <328e8acd.35ab74ff aol.com>
	 <3.0.1.32.19980715143254.008ec790 cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
	 <35AD72E6.BD8F97CC ihug.co.nz> <3.0.1.32.19980716102732.0080f440@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"2bwhe1.0.fU2.SkPhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20647
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In fact you have just described another FE device I have worked on, the
current induced in another coil (by a coil that has a rising current)
only reduces the first coils self induction (reducing the resistance the
coil feels when the current is rising and falling), the energy induced in
the coil only reduces the first coils self induction but does not take
any energy away, this is an interesting situation and if the right
control is kept of the two coils it will not turn into a conventional
transformer situation, the energy can be 195% or there about if you do it
right.


John Berry

John Winterflood wrote:

> John Berry wrote:
> >
> >> John Winterflood wrote:
> >>
> >> My intuitive understanding of electrons being accellerated may be
> >> described in terms of a bunch of balloons in air.  If you hit one
> >> of the balloons with a tennis ball to accelerate it, then all the
> >> other balloons accellerate (a little) in the opposite direction
> >> because of the air being displaced by the hit balloon.  In a very
> >> similar manner, all electrons in the neibourhood of a hit electron
> >> will jump (a little) in the reverse direction.  (With electric and
> >> magnetic flux, there is no viscosity in the "fluid" and it is also
> >> incompressible).  This is Lenzes rule in operation.  As a result
> >> the energy you have tried to impart to the one electron, does not
> >> all end up in that electron, but a little is "wasted" on the
> >> neibouring charges when they accelerate in the opposite sense.
> >
> > This is incorrect as both electrons have this force placed on them,
> > the "hit" electron by the stationary one and visa versa, if you
> > maintain that the stationary electrons have this force placed on
> > them the same force must be placed on the 'hit' electron, The
> > hit electron 'sees' the field from the stationary electrons just
> > as the stationary electrons see the field from the moving one, you
> > may not understand how the moving electron can see a field from
> > stationary electrons but that is because they are not stationary
> > relative as from the moving electron's view they are moving, so if
> > you agree that the stationary electrons are forced by the moving
> > one it must also go he other way as it is unimportant which
> > accelerates or is moving because the relative motion and increase
> > in motion is what is important.
>
> I am not sure what it is that you are saying is incorrect although
> you are probably right.  Let me give another example to illustrate
> what I see is happening.  Suppose you have a coil of superconducting
> wire wound around a non-laminated conductive core.  Now you try to
> accellerate the electrons in the coil by some means.  By the same
> effect as you have tried to describe, electrons in the conductive
> core will also accellerate in the opposite direction - Eddy currents.
> If you are trying to generate a magnetic field, then the effect of
> this initial opposite motion is to tend to cancel the magnetic field
> according to Lenzes rule.  Supposing the core is also superconducting
> (make it a coil if you like - it makes no difference), now there is
> no energy loss and the forced current in the primary and the induced
> current in the core will continue to flow forever. So we have the
> case that accelerating the one produces reverse acceleration in the
> other, and vice-versa as per your example, but still there is no
> tendency for the currents to "run-away".  Straighten these coils
> out into two parallel paths and you have your example exactly -
> except that we are confining the electron flow within super-
> conducting wires rather than letting them float freely through a
> vacuum.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 15 23:35:27 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA12222;
	Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:29:03 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:29:03 -0700
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:29:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
cc: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stearns, Jr.: beliefs create reality  7.15.98
In-Reply-To: <35AD80AD.6A85 earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980715232301.2979A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"UfAOA3.0.U-2.lsPhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20648
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Rich Murray wrote:

"     "

Well, I would certainly take issue with the statement contained in the
subject line , were you to offer any supporting arguments in it's favor,
Rich.

But since there don't appear to be any , all I need do is say no they
don't.

Jim Ostrowski


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 01:56:04 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02683;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:52:25 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:52:25 -0700
From: "Bill Wright" <survival pop3.mail.demon.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:52:26 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: unsubscrribe
Reply-to: bill survival.demon.co.uk
X-Confirm-Reading-To: bill survival.demon.co.uk
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <199807150207.TAA07916 mx1.eskimo.com>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b)
Message-Id: <E0ywjmF-0000YA-00 post.mail.demon.net>
Resent-Message-ID: <"6QDzy1.0.pf.8zRhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20649
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 




Bill Wright
London
UK

E-Mail bill survival.demon.co.uk

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 02:22:45 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA04208;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 02:15:01 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 02:15:01 -0700
Message-ID: <001701bdb099$b31dc740$8db4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Carbon Pile Resistors (Rheostats) Produce Energy?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 03:11:12 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"UVzoA1.0.g11.KIShr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20650
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

A variable, high current (hundreds of amperes)carbon load resistor used in
the lab consisted of squares of carbon about 1/4 inch thick x about 1.5
inches square stacked in a screw "press" with metal plates between the
blocks that acted as heat dump fins.

Sargent-Welch carries a 40 Amp 400 to 1000 watt
unit about 16 inches long, for about $250.00ea.

These had a negative resistance coefficient as they heated up, which meant
backing off on the
squeeze pressure to hold the resistance constant.

I suppose one could use carbon brushes in such a pile for experimenting.
Some of them have leads embedded in them also.

Never thought to look to see if they put out energy either.

Regards,  Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 03:25:19 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA08253;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 03:17:41 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 03:17:41 -0700
Message-ID: <002501bdb0a2$737cef40$8db4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Compression Carbon Rheostats. Negative resistance,O-U?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 04:13:16 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"qfwVq2.0.t02.5DThr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20651
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

My Pender & Del Mar Electrical Engineers' Handbook, says that Carbon
Compression Resistance Rheostats can vary from 0.001 to 3000 ohms at 5 Kw.
6 to 800 amps, 20 to 5400 watts 37x19x10 inches.

If you really want to go cheap, you can put sheet metal "shims" between the
slices in a loaf of bread, and..... or cut a deal with Frank Stenger on some
of his delightful chocolate chip cookies, after he has pulsed a stack of
them with his capacitor bank. :-)

Regards,    Frederick





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 04:38:28 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA13033;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 04:33:10 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 04:33:10 -0700
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:33:55 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Compression Carbon Rheostats. Negative resistance,O-U?
In-Reply-To: <002501bdb0a2$737cef40$8db4bfa8 default>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980716112548.20134A-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"QVwPR2.0.TB3.rJUhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20652
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frederick,

They pooh-pooed the negative resistance thing last week. What's happened? 
Hasty withdrawls of webpages and press releases. Is this another cf? Do 
you believe it? Was there a basic measurement mistake? (surely not! 
electrical engineers are 2 a penny) Can you think of a mechanism by which 
the thing might work?

Interesting how people behave: Oh no my life's work gone to a better 
idea - rubbish it. Oh no, she's a materials scientist who works with 
cement - what does she know? My God, she's a woman, what do they know.

It's quite comical. I like Josephson's pro estab. line. A real rebel 
turned game keeper that one. 'Mind matter unification' sounds good 'cos 
he's saying it.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 06:55:37 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA03117;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 06:51:57 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 06:51:57 -0700
Message-ID: <003801bdb0c0$5f5d4780$8db4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Compression Carbon Rheostats. Negative resistance,O-U?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 07:48:04 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"Aph-m.0.Um.xLWhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20653
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, July 16, 1998 5:37 AM
Subject: Re: Compression Carbon Rheostats. Negative resistance,O-U?

Remi,

Pooh-pooh or no. No harm in taking a peek. Carbon is interesting stuff.

Fred


>Frederick,
>
>They pooh-pooed the negative resistance thing last week. What's happened? 
>Hasty withdrawls of webpages and press releases. Is this another cf? Do 
>you believe it? Was there a basic measurement mistake? (surely not! 
>electrical engineers are 2 a penny) Can you think of a mechanism by which 
>the thing might work?
>
>Interesting how people behave: Oh no my life's work gone to a better 
>idea - rubbish it. Oh no, she's a materials scientist who works with 
>cement - what does she know? My God, she's a woman, what do they know.
>
>It's quite comical. I like Josephson's pro estab. line. A real rebel 
>turned game keeper that one. 'Mind matter unification' sounds good 'cos 
>he's saying it.
>Remi.
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 07:19:55 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10659;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 07:15:30 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 07:15:30 -0700
Message-ID: <35AF1604.1EDA5264 ihug.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 02:14:45 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: How 'FREE-ENERGY' is implicated in CONVENTIONAL in ELECTRODYNAMICS!!!!!
References: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980716095251.20100A-100000 iesun9>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"9_PUJ1.0.Nc2.2iWhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20654
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Remi Cornwall wrote:

> John,
>
> DO you know about Harold Aspden's work and is it Frank Potter? At its
> simplest, they use a coil to cancel a magnet's field temporarily. It
> works like this: a piece of metal gets attracted to the magnet, then the
> current is switched on to oppose the field so that the metal can be
> drawn away back to the start of the cycle. Then the current is switched off.

This will not work as the coil cancels the magnetic field of the magnet it will
lose energy, it is investing energy in it, if you take the iron away the
magnetic field is less and it will not recoup the all the energy.

>
>
> If you can minimise the I2R loses in the countercoil then the device
> would be ou. That simple. WHat do you think?
> Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 07:54:43 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA11784;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 07:51:40 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 07:51:40 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35AE044C.F71 earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:46:52 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
CC: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Murray: Shultz: various "flat worlds" "somewhere"  7.16.98
References: <35AAD3D8.4050 earthlink.net> <6of6sq$k7a$3@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <6og6n9$lo9@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"i2kaq3.0.1u2.wDXhr" mx2>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20655
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July 16, 1998

Richard Shultz [schultr gefen.cc.biu.ac.il]  asked if the world would be
flat, if enough people believed it was.  Reality is multidimensional. 
Even the realms we cocreate as "physical" exist as a manifold of
probable realities, each of which naturally enough succumbs to the
tendency to regard itself as the one, only, and true single reality. 
This is a type of "flat earth" viewpoint, very deeply ingrained in our
probable history.  However, awareness can loosen up to be aware of
simultaneous parallel, somewhat different histories, as when one
contemplates taking a vacation somewhere new, and may get an almost
instantaneous intuitive read-out of what it might be like.

Moreover, the systems of co-created, shared realities include the myriad
dream realities, and, indeed, there is a continuous gradation from those
to the level we regard as physical.

As a simple example, consider the qualia, "green".  Where was "green"
before the Big Bang?  When during the past 4.6 billion years of
evolution did "green" emerge into the conscious awareness of living
creatures?  What I am hinting at is that "green" already exists outside
our presumed physical reality, outside its conveniently definable space
and time.  So, when we each experience "green", we are actually
entertaining in awareness an item that is outside space and time.  This,
if true for "green", is true for all thoughts, sensations, and
perceptions whatsoever.  Thus, awareness itself is a realm already and
inherently beyond our conventionally defined space and time, and this is
so this very moment, as these very black marks appear on your monitor
screeen, on your retinas, in your awareness, automatically interpreted
as complex patterns of meaning, along with your awareness of body
sensations and various external sounds, the manifold of subjective
experience in this very present moment.  All, qualia, in awareness. 

To come to a direct appreciation of awareness itself, a convenient and
reliable method is offered by Arjuna Nick Ardagh, Living Essence
Foundation, www.livingessence.com.   I highly recommened his guided
meditation cassette, "Who Am I?"

One familiar specialized nonphysical reality is that of mathematical
exploration and experience, where a vast, tightly organized, realm of
abstact objects exist beyond the physical level, available to
exploration by any mind, and serving as a fertile source of models for
processes and items in the "physical" level. 

So, indeed there are many "quasi-physical" reality systems, where the
"flat-earth" agreement is maintained as rigorously as we maintain our 12
billion light year radius bubble of observable space, full of 10E12
galaxies.

The many books by Jane Roberts are a most playful, provocative,
evocative celebration of such multidimensional perspectives.

Regards,  Rich Murray
Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103
rmforall earthlink.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 08:43:10 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA02687;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:36:56 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:36:56 -0700
Message-ID: <19980716153034.18604.rocketmail send1d.yahoomail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:30:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Compression Carbon Rheostats. Negative resistance,O-U?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"gyF_13.0.vf.NuXhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20656
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Remi,

You Wrote:
> They pooh-pooed the negative resistance thing last week. What's
happened? 
> Hasty withdrawls of webpages and press releases. Is this another cf?

The page was back online earlier this week.  So much for conspiracy
theories.

You also spewed:
> Interesting how people behave: Oh no my life's work gone to a better 
> idea - rubbish it. Oh no, she's a materials scientist who works with 
> cement - what does she know? My God, she's a woman, what do they know.

Where the hell are you from? People must throw large objects at you
for no apparent reason on a real regular basis.  I'll clue you in --
bigotry is a bad thing.  Keep this stuff to yourself.

---Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9> wrote:
>
> Frederick,
> 
> They pooh-pooed the negative resistance thing last week. What's
happened? 
> Hasty withdrawls of webpages and press releases. Is this another cf?
Do 
> you believe it? Was there a basic measurement mistake? (surely not! 
> electrical engineers are 2 a penny) Can you think of a mechanism by
which 
> the thing might work?
> 
> Interesting how people behave: Oh no my life's work gone to a better 
> idea - rubbish it. Oh no, she's a materials scientist who works with 
> cement - what does she know? My God, she's a woman, what do they know.
> 
> It's quite comical. I like Josephson's pro estab. line. A real rebel 
> turned game keeper that one. 'Mind matter unification' sounds good
'cos 
> he's saying it.
> Remi.
> 
> 

==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 08:59:00 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07145;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:55:07 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:55:07 -0700
Message-ID: <01BDB0A7.E3ADFF20.stk sunherald.infi.net>
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Polarization modulation paper
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:52:54 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"eepnt2.0.Zl1.Q9Yhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20657
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

All:

Yesterday I promised I would post the reference to the information about polarization modulation. Most of it is at

http://www.unitelnw.com/fronbart.htm

The reference down at the bottom of the page mentions a man named Mikhailov who did the ferromagnetic aerosol experiments I mentioned.

Best Regards,
Kyle R. Mcallister
Email: stk sunherald.infi.net
Phone: 228-875-0629
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/5257

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 09:02:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23966;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:59:51 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:59:51 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980716120235.00860090 cnct.com>
X-Sender: knagel cnct.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:02:38 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel cnct.com>
Subject: Re: Compression Carbon Rheostats. Negative resistance,O-U?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"8KKIh1.0.Is5.qDYhr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20658
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Anton writes.
>You also spewed:
>> Interesting how people behave: Oh no my life's work gone to a better 
>> idea - rubbish it. Oh no, she's a materials scientist who works with 
>> cement - what does she know? My God, she's a woman, what do they know.
>
>Where the hell are you from? People must throw large objects at you
>for no apparent reason on a real regular basis.  I'll clue you in --
>bigotry is a bad thing.  Keep this stuff to yourself.

If I'm not mistaken, that's exactly what he was driving at.
Reread the paragraph in question, and you'll see what I mean.

As regards the experiment, I'd like to see a statement
from her or the university. This speculation and newspaper
report thing is awful, someone posted her email address
a few days back, anything yet???? 

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 09:09:30 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10648;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:06:11 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:06:11 -0700
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:04:37 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Compression Carbon Rheostats. Negative resistance,O-U?
In-Reply-To: <003801bdb0c0$5f5d4780$8db4bfa8 default>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980716170108.5541A-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"IFIXE2.0.Hc2.oJYhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20659
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

> Remi,
> 
> Pooh-pooh or no. No harm in taking a peek. Carbon is interesting stuff.
> 
> Fred

You go have a go. I admire your spirit. One could do worse with one's 
income like go to dinner parties and keep up with the Jones'.

Carbon should be very interesting. Want top propose any mechanisms for 
-ve res?
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 09:10:43 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11522;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:07:46 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:07:46 -0700
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:06:13 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Compression Carbon Rheostats. Negative resistance,O-U?
In-Reply-To: <19980716153034.18604.rocketmail send1d.yahoomail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980716170535.5541B-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"ggryf1.0.kp2.HLYhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20660
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

> Remi,
> 
> You Wrote:
> > They pooh-pooed the negative resistance thing last week. What's
> happened? 
> > Hasty withdrawls of webpages and press releases. Is this another cf?
> 
> The page was back online earlier this week.  So much for conspiracy
> theories.
> 
> You also spewed:
> > Interesting how people behave: Oh no my life's work gone to a better 
> > idea - rubbish it. Oh no, she's a materials scientist who works with 
> > cement - what does she know? My God, she's a woman, what do they know.
> 
> Where the hell are you from? People must throw large objects at you
> for no apparent reason on a real regular basis.  I'll clue you in --
> bigotry is a bad thing.  Keep this stuff to yourself.
> 
Er, like, sorry God.
:)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 09:25:39 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28681;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:20:59 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:20:59 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:11:40 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: throwing large objects
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980716170838.5541D-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"TADQT2.0.107.dXYhr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20661
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Er, Anton,

Like, laugh a little maaannn. People do shit to you, the best weapon is 
to laugh at them. Leaves them defenceless. You feel better for laughing 
and, if they can, they start laughing to.

Take some senna pods and relieve that tension.
(Take a joke, life's too serious)
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 10:45:17 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01499;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:41:37 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:41:37 -0700
X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226
Message-Id: <v03020901b1d3cea45403 [128.183.200.195]>
In-Reply-To: <199807131430_MC2-52FC-15F8 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:41:44 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
Resent-Message-ID: <"IGggF2.0.EN.FjZhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20662
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex;

Jed Rothwell has recommended a paper for documentation of the heat after
death event we have been discussing:

>     If there is some paper in which this experiment is documented then I
>     would like to read it . . .
>
>Yeah, that's a good idea. See M. Fleischmann, S. Pons, "Calorimetry of the
>Pd-D2O system: from simplicity via complications to simplicity," Physics
>Letters A, 176 (1993) 118-129.

The experiment involves first a boil off and then a heat after death phase.
No energy estimates were given for the heat after death event.  Estimates
were given for the boil off event but they have no relationship to the
numbers that Jed gave.  The claimed excess energy is 86.7 KJ with an
electrolysis energy input of 22.5 KJ.  So there is no 1.1 MJ of excess heat
produced from 650 J of energy stored in the palladium wires (a gain of
1700).  Instead there is 86.7 KJ excess energy with 22  KJ energy input.
Quoting from the paper "We note that the excess rate of energy production
is about four times the enthalpy input...".  We have a gain of 4 not 1700.
  I suspect that Jed is utilizing his technique of experiment combining.
Perhaps there is a heat after death event that produced 1.1 MJ of energy,
but with larger size palladium rods of about 5 cc volume and then Jed
combined it with the experiment in this paper and took the much smaller
volume.  The volume of the palladium rods given in the paper of .0392 cc is
the only number that agrees with Jed's numbers.
  Now the gain of 4 is much less that 1700 but it is still significant.
The explanation, I think, would run along the lines of the already
discussed theory of water release in droplets.  Much has been made of the
amount of lithium contained in the outgassing vapor.  That question is not
too relevant as it is entirely possibly for pure water vapor to be released
but then condense into droplets before it escapes from the cell.  We do
know that there is some lithium in the released water and the presence of
lithium ions would provide a condensation nucleus for the formation of
water droplets.
  Often have we heard Jed adding to cf lore by claiming that there were
heat after death events in which the energy released was many thousands
times the total possible energy contained in the palladium rods.  I would
like to see an example of this.  That would be quite interesting.  So far I
only see the citing of megajoule heat after death events combined with the
use of a palladium rod volume from another experiment where the volume is
much smaller, and the technique of adding in the alleged excess energy
prior to the onset of the heat after death event.
  I would like to make it clear to Jed that "heat after death" does not
translate to "heat befor and after death" as in his statement

>Yeah, well, that particular cathode produced 128.5 kJ in heat after death. Add
>to that the excess heat before death, which continued about a week, and you
>get MJ levels.

The idea here Jed is that one estimates the total energy contained within
the palladium rod going into the heat after death event and then sees how
much energy is released afterwards.  Is is these two numbers that are then
compared.  There should be no additional energy input during the heat after
event and the alleged excess energy released prior to the heat after event
should not be added in.



Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 12:25:05 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24389;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:21:41 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:21:41 -0700
X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226
Message-Id: <v03020902b1d3feb89fb9 [128.183.200.195]>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980713110152.007e2810 world.std.com>
References: <199807131031_MC2-52EA-63BE compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:21:52 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Maoka and Enyo paper
Resent-Message-ID: <"i_7N-3.0._y5.4Bbhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20663
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Mitchell Swartz writes:

> One need only compare your glossy "Infinite Energy" with its device de jour
>including urine engines, and other dubious devices,

I think that the "device de jour" is the best part of "Infinite Energy".
Sure, most of the devices do not work and are useless but a small fraction
of them actually do work.  The GEET device, which has been operated with
part urine fuel, does apear to work.  The Aqua Fuel system also works. A
few other devices covered there also seem to work.  It is a very valuable
service to have these devices reported upon and in some cases tested by the
independent and trustworthy investigators at Infinite Energy.

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 12:34:37 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26709;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:30:31 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:30:31 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980716152634.007e2950 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:26:34 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Maoka and Enyo paper
In-Reply-To: <v03020902b1d3feb89fb9 [128.183.200.195]>
References: <3.0.5.32.19980713110152.007e2810 world.std.com>
 <199807131031_MC2-52EA-63BE compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"6WedZ3.0.9X6.NJbhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20664
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


At 03:21 PM 7/16/98 -0400, Lawrence E. Wharton wrote:
   
> The GEET device, which has been operated with
>part urine fuel, does apear to work.

  Please clarify.

Lawrence Wharton claims GEET is overunity.
It that based upon NASA or other reports, or
what was written in Infinite Energy?


>  The Aqua Fuel system also works. A
>few other devices covered there also seem to work.  

 Lawrence Wharton claims Aqua Fuel is overunity.
Ok.  It that based upon NASA reports seen or published
or what was written in Infinite Energy?

  Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 13:29:47 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16534;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:21:46 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:21:46 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:09:51 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807161613_MC2-535A-D4DF compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"D373d2.0.F24.O3chr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20665
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; Larry Wharton >INTERNET:wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

Larry Wharton writes:

     The experiment involves first a boil off and then a heat after death
     phase. No energy estimates were given for the heat after death event. 
     Estimates were given for the boil off event but they have no
     relationship to the numbers that Jed gave.

You need to look at the other paper I listed, "Heat after Death" in the conf.
proceedings and Fusion Technology, No. 26, 1994. See also the Morrison versus
Fleischmann debate, Internet or Phys. Lett. A version.


     I suspect that Jed is utilizing his technique of experiment combining.

No, it was the same data set. See "Heat after Death."


     Often have we heard Jed adding to cf lore by claiming that there were
     heat after death events in which the energy released was many thousands
     times the total possible energy contained in the palladium rods.  I
     would like to see an example of this.

The example is right there! I already gave you the titles of the papers. I
have given them to you dozens of times, and you could have looked them up in
the on-line bibliographies without my help. You and the other "skeptics" moan
and cry and act as if you are incapable of finding anything on your own. I
have to spoon feed you every last detail, and then you invariably get things
confused. This is all an act. It's fake. You call this "lore" and you pretend
you would like to see it, but you never actually lift a finger to see it. You
remind me of Barry Merriman. When I ask him to critique McKubre he says me "we
have debated this enough already." Ha! He has never said a word about it! Not
one paragraph, not one word. "Enough debate" by his definition is for him to
say nothing and pretend he wins. It's like a poker game where we sit down, I
deal the first round of cards, he looks at them, throws them on the table and
says, "I've taken enough of your money already, let's call it quits." Declare
victory and leave. I save every e-mail message. I can find one by author and
content words. I know that he never dared to discuss this or any other
mainstream CF experiment. You, at least, have tried to discuss them, but you
labor under a hopeless disadvantage: you refuse to read the papers.


     The idea here Jed is that one estimates the total energy contained
     within the palladium rod going into the heat after death

This "idea" makes no sense. We know already there can be no energy contained
within the palladium rod going into heat after death, except the 650 joules in
the hydride, which is insignificant. Before heat after death the rod has
already generated massive amounts of energy for a week, far exceeding this or
any other possible chemical storage. How can there be energy "contained" when
it has already come out?!? The process is endothermic for a week! The chemical
energy would have been exhausted a few hours into the low level heat, and it
would have been exhausted again 6 seconds into the boil-off event, and it
would have been exhausted again shortly after heat after death commenced. How
can the same chemical energy appear in all three endothermic phases?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 13:27:24 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11641;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:22:40 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:22:40 -0700
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:18:13 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Oops! Meant "exothermic"
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807161622_MC2-534C-7254 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"2_sgp3.0.pr2.G4chr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20666
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; Larry Wharton >INTERNET:wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

I used the wrong word in this paragraph. At least I was consistant! I said
endo- and it should have been exo-. Here is how it should read:


This "idea" makes no sense. We know already there can be no energy contained
within the palladium rod going into heat after death, except the 650 joules in
the hydride, which is insignificant. Before heat after death the rod has
already generated massive amounts of energy for a week, far exceeding this or
any other possible chemical storage. How can there be energy "contained" when
it has already come out?!? The process is exothermic for a week! The chemical
energy would have been exhausted a few hours into the low level heat, and it
would have been exhausted again 6 seconds into the boil-off event, and it
would have been exhausted again shortly after heat after death commenced. How
can the same chemical energy appear in all three exothermic phases?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 14:25:09 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29778;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:22:31 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:22:31 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980716172723.00cec9c0 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:27:23 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on heat after death
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <35b0614c.165940736 mail-hub>
References: <3.0.1.32.19980713123920.00c6d4e0 spectre.mitre.org>
 <3.0.5.32.19980712081515.0088d490 mail.eden.com>
 <199807112305_MC2-52D0-A7D8 compuserve.com>
 <3.0.1.32.19980713123920.00c6d4e0 spectre.mitre.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"rDqF_2.0.BH7.Nychr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20667
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 02:12 AM 7/16/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:39:20 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
>[snip]
>>     MgH2 + O2 --> Hg(OH)2
>      ^^            ^^        Transmutation reaction ;)?

   Yep, transmuted by aliens in the Internet. ;-)

   Seriously, it shows up that way in my out box, so I fat-fingered it, and
missed it since it "looked right" during proofreading.  

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 15:21:49 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13771;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:11:54 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:11:54 -0700
Message-ID: <19980716194202.13821.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:42:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Compression Carbon Rheostats. Negative resistance,O-U?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"9KWvs2.0.rM3.egdhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20668
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


My apologies to Remi and the list.  I read his dialog quickly, and
took it out of context. Guess I'm still a little suprised by his
previous discussion/prespective and assumed this was another extention
of his belief system.  

Again -- my apologies Remi.


Kyle Wrote:
> As regards the experiment, I'd like to see a statement
> from her or the university. This speculation and newspaper
> report thing is awful, someone posted her email address
> a few days back, anything yet???? 

If I remember correctly, the buffalo.edu link was a press release from
the university.  I agree -- more info would be nice, but it also
mentioned that a patent was in the works.  I would guess that too much
info [read -- anything more than a generic 'press release'] would
comprimise their patent application.

see:
http://www.buffalo.edu/news/Latest/searchindex/ChungResistance.html

Note -- the current article has been updated from last week.  Mentions
a possible 'peer-review' article and the wording is slightly
different. Couple excerpts that seem different and interesting:

>>Deborah D. L. Chung, Ph.D., professor of mechanical 
>>and aerospace engineering at UB, said that while she 
>>also observed the conduction of electricity with zero 
>>resistance when the composite was combined with 
>>another carbon composite that is a conventional, 
>>positive resistor -- an indication of superconduction 
>>-- her findings do not indicate that the combination 
>>is itself a superconductor. 

and 

>>She stressed that the mechanism behind the 
>>observation of negative resistance at the 
>>geometrically complex interface between fiber layers 
>>is still unclear. 
>>
>>Chung said that she is working to identify an energy 
>>source responsible for the negative-resistance 
>>phenomenon. 


Kool!  All for now,
==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 16 15:49:33 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22683;
	Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:43:24 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:43:24 -0700
Message-ID: <01BDB0E0.EB626920.stk sunherald.infi.net>
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: ZPF: A possible PRF?
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:41:08 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Xi-pH3.0.LY5.C8ehr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20669
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

All:

I have been thinking about what I wrote yesterday about the possibility of 
the zero point field being a candidate PRF (preferred reference frame). I 
find it interesting that no one else has thought of this before (have 
they?) I would like to know your opinions on whether this is possible or 
not.

Relativistic phenomena at near C speeds:

1. Mass (actually energy) goes to near infinity, requiring infinite energy 
to travel at C.
2. Lorentz contraction occurs
3. Onboard time dilates

These phenomena have all been confirmed, which bodes very well for the 
theory of relativity. However, relativity gives no explanation for why 
these effects occur, only that they do. If we assume an underlying 
structure for spacetime, such as the ZPF, we have an actual 'cause' for the 
relativistic effect. This has been postulated before; nothing new here.

Relativistic requirements for a maximum possible velocity: No 
object/energy/information can travel faster than C. (causality violations 
occur). However, in quantum physics we frequently see superluminal effects. 
It can be argued that none of these effects can be used to transmit 
information FTL, but then we have the problem that these entities cannot be 
explained logically by relativity theory. This complicates things severely, 
implying that there are some things which simply cannot be explained by any 
theory.

There is a possible solution: The Lorentz-Poincare-Larmor theory of 
relativity, essentially identical to the special theory of relativity, 
implies that there exists a background preferred reference frame preserving 
causality for all entities, including the superluminal. This 'ether' 
supposedly filled all of space, and could not be measured since an object 
in motion relative to the 'ether' contracted to cancel any anisotropy in C. 
A theory just as tenable as STR, but more complicated. However, if we can 
combine this theory with the quantum mechanical results showing definite 
superluminal effects, and assume that this ether causes relativistic 
effects, and perhaps even inertia itself, we can classify it under one 
name: the Zero-Point Field. The relativistic effects, as well as a causal 
explanation of superluminal velocities can be shown, unlike STR, to have a 
true material cause. The question is, how do we test this?

I look forward to your comments, especially Hal's.

Kyle R. Mcallister
Email: stk sunherald.infi.net
Phone: 228-875-0629
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/5257

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 00:13:42 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA15941;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:09:23 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:09:23 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <000101bdb150$3c98f880$328f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Carbonic Acid Catalysis of CO and H2O to Formic Acid?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:57:53 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"DDBkv1.0._u3.XYlhr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20670
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Check me out on this one, Robin.

Under ordinary circumstances CO does not react
with water: CO + H2O ---> H-CO-OH.

However, in the presence of CO2 and H2O, Carbonic Acid H2CO3 <---> 2 H+ +
CO3= or H+ + HCO3- is formed which, in effect catalyzes the reaction of CO
with H2O to form the Formic Acid H-CO-OH.

With an ion product constant (K(sub)i) over two
orders of magnitude greater than that of Carbonic Acid, the Formic Acid will
act as a tissue irritant, particularly in the respiratory passages over
time.

This reaction may be verified by sparging air
containing CO and CO2 through distilled/de-ionized water followed by
analysis.

Regards,   Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 02:40:53 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA27174;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 02:39:52 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 02:39:52 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:30:37 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: The Anton Rager question.
In-Reply-To: <19980716194202.13821.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980717102022.13362A-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"8I4Vb3.0.We6.clnhr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20671
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Anton Rager wrote:

> 
> My apologies to Remi and the list.  I read his dialog quickly, and
> took it out of context. Guess I'm still a little suprised by his
> previous discussion/prespective and assumed this was another extention
> of his belief system.  
         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Rolling about laughing. 'Belief system'. *You* see what you want to believe, 
then froth and babble those who dare slaughter your holy cow.

> Again -- my apologies Remi.
> 
At least you realise that. :)

Grab a can (er, not a bud-dy), grab a girl, put some good music on, have a
good time and don't be so freaking serious! Existence is one big joke!
That is the mystery of existence, mind, matter maaannnn. 

Heh, heh, heh, hee, hee, hee,
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 02:51:09 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA27923;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 02:49:11 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 02:49:11 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:44:57 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: How 'FREE-ENERGY' is implicated in CONVENTIONAL in ELECTRODYNAMICS!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <35AF1604.1EDA5264 ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980717103205.13362B-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"Mf6zn1.0.Aq6.Lunhr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20672
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, John Berry wrote:
 
> Remi Cornwall wrote:
> 
> > John,
> >
> > DO you know about Harold Aspden's work and is it Frank Potter? At its
> > simplest, they use a coil to cancel a magnet's field temporarily. It
> > works like this: a piece of metal gets attracted to the magnet, then the
> > current is switched on to oppose the field so that the metal can be
> > drawn away back to the start of the cycle. Then the current is switched off.
> 
 This will not work as the coil cancels the magnetic field of the magnet it will
 lose energy, it is investing energy in it, if you take the iron away the
 magnetic field is less and it will not recoup the all the energy.

I'm not convinced. I'll model the magnet as a coil with a supercurrent in 
it. I'll then just set up some simple equations expressing the inductance 
of the coils and their mutual inductance. It will be possible to get an 
equivalent circuit for the 'driven' side. One could be very smart and 
include that bit that radiates away as em radiation, but the system is a 
very inefficent transmitter if it is much below the wavelength of the 
excitation frequency.

The loses are I2R loses in the driving coil. I think we can neglect 
hystersis loses in the magnet as it has high coercivity and we aren't 
driving it into the non-linear region.

So imagine then an oscilating circuit on the driven side with just enough 
input to cancel the I2R loses (which we would minimise by design).

Would this work? Analysis, then design. This would be easy to build. In 
fact, if you didn't want motive power, you could express its output in 
iron filings in a viscous fluid and measure the temp. rise.

Should be cheap, easy to do. I don't know what's stopping them (Aspden, 
Adams, Potter).


I'm not convinced about your relative motion between charged particles. 
It's so old, and the configuration so standard that really if there was a 
problem, it would have been spotted long ago. Unless you know something 
different...
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 03:02:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA08792;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 02:59:48 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 02:59:48 -0700
Message-ID: <006801bdb169$20e1e700$328f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>, <dougc.elliott@pnl.gov>
Subject: Exhaust Pipe Shift Catalyst?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 03:56:03 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"0fblj3.0.I92.K2ohr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20673
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

The calculations show that the CO from the atmosphere may be catalyzed by
CO2/H2O (Carbonic Acid) to form Formic Acid in the lungs and lead to asthma
symptoms:

CO + H2O --->  H-CO-OH

Since the combustion of a pound of gasoline
produces about 1.5 pounds of H2O and 3.0 pounds
of CO2 that goes out the exhaust, it would seem that a shift catalyst for
the reaction: CO + H2O ---> CO2 + H2 which is a step beyond the Formic Acid
intermediate, would lower the Atmospheric CO rather than using
Aldehyde-Producing Oxygenates to lower the CO exhaust emissions.

An Alkali Bicarbonate exhaust catalyst, perhaps?   :-)

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 03:11:22 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA29755;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 03:09:39 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 03:09:39 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:05:26 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Carbonic Acid Catalysis of CO and H2O to Formic Acid?
In-Reply-To: <000101bdb150$3c98f880$328f85ce default>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980717105053.13362C-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"e39kb2.0.qG7.XBohr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20674
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

PKa value or not, an acid solution strength is dependant on its 
concentration. The lungs are continually purged. Autocatalysis or not, 
the rate of production must match this purging.

What irritates lungs is NO2 which is v.sol in water and HNO3 is a strong 
acid anyway (fully dissociates). That is a much bigger concern.

CO is highly toxic because it binds so well to hemaglobin ligand. I think 
a concentration of less than 0.1% in a closed room will kill you if left 
long enough.

CO poisoning includes: headaches, irritability and loss of concentration. 
In fact they have regulated in this country for landlords to get their 
boilers serviced because to many young vunerable people were looking for 
cheap accmdtn and dying because of bastard landlords. 

The law now is inspection every year. Overkill. New boilers correctly 
installed should miss service for say a period of five years. CO sensors 
and alrams should be fitted to boilers.

We have a black market of phoney certificates and expensive charges now. 
'Money for old rope'.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 03:49:37 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA11261;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 03:48:10 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 03:48:10 -0700
Message-Id: <35AF2B4E.46FD7175 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:45:34 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: abstract physics/9807023
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9F986D2D253186F716E14871"
Resent-Message-ID: <"ygSdk1.0.sl2.flohr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20675
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------9F986D2D253186F716E14871
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/9807023

Regards,

hamdi ucar
--------------9F986D2D253186F716E14871
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="9807023"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="9807023"
Content-Base: "http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/980702
	3"

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>abstract physics/9807023</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<a href="/IgnoreMe"></a>
<H1>Physics, abstract<BR>
physics/9807023</H1>
<PRE>
From: Bernhard Haisch &lt;<A HREF="mailto:haisch flare.stanford.edu">haisch@flare.stanford.edu</A>&gt;
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 00:41:39 GMT   (16kb)
</PRE>
<H2>Advances in the proposed electromagnetic zero-point field theory of
 inertia</H2>
<P>
<B>Authors:</B> 
<a href="/find/physics/1/Bernhard+Haisch/0/1/0/all/1/1">Bernhard Haisch</a>, 
<a href="/find/physics/1/Alfonso+Rueda/0/1/0/all/1/1">Alfonso Rueda</a>, 
<a href="/find/physics/1/H%2E+E%2E+Puthoff/0/1/0/all/1/1">H. E. Puthoff</a><BR>
<B>Comments:</B> Invited presentation at 34th AIAA/ASME/SAE/ASEE Joint Propulsion
 Conference, July 13-15, 1998, 10 pages, no figures<BR>
<B>Report-no:</B> AIAA 98-3143<BR>
<B>Subj-class:</B> General Physics; Classical Physics<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
A NASA-funded research effort has been underway at the Lockheed Martin
Advanced Technology Center in Palo Alto and at California State University in
Long Beach to develop and test a recently published theory that Newton's
equation of motion can be derived from Maxwell's equations of electrodynamics
as applied to the zero-point field (ZPF) of the quantum vacuum. In this
ZPF-inertia theory, mass is postulated to be not an intrinsic property of
matter but rather a kind of electromagnetic drag force that proves to be
acceleration dependent by virtue of the spectral characteristics of the ZPF.
The theory proposes that interactions between the ZPF and matter take place at
the level of quarks and electrons, hence would account for the mass of a
composite neutral particle such as the neutron. An effort to generalize the
exploratory study of Haisch, Rueda and Puthoff (1994) into a proper
relativistic formulation has been successful. Moreover the principle of
equivalence implies that in this view gravitation would also be electromagnetic
in origin along the lines proposed by Sakharov (1968). With regard to exotic
propulsion we can definitively rule out one speculatively hypothesized
mechanism: matter possessing negative inertial mass, a concept originated by
Bondi (1957) is shown to be logically impossible. On the other hand, the linked
ZPF-inertia and ZPF-gravity concepts open the conceptual possibility of
manipulation of inertia and gravitation, since both are postulated to be
electromagnetic phenomena. It is hoped that this will someday translate into
actual technological potential. A key question is whether the proposed
ZPF-matter interactions generating the phenomenon of mass might involve one or
more resonances. This is presently under investigation.
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</P>
<H3>Paper: <a href="/e-print/physics/9807023">Source</a> (16kb), <a href="/ps/physics/9807023">PostScript</a>, or <a href="/format/physics/9807023">Other formats</a></H3>
</H3> (<A HREF="/faq/srcfaq.html">N.B.</A>: delivery types and potential problems)<P>

<FORM ACTION="/form/physics">
<H3><HR WIDTH="70%">Links to:
<A HREF="/">xxx</A>, 
<A HREF="/archive/physics">physics</A>,
/<A HREF="/find/physics">find</A>,
/<A HREF="/abs/physics">abs</A> (<a href="/abs/physics/9807022">-</a>/<a href="/abs/physics/9807024">+</a>), /<A HREF="/list/physics/9807#physics/9807023">9807</A>,
<A HREF="/help/"><b>?</b></A>
<INPUT TYPE="submit" NAME="MULTI" VALUE="form interface">
<HR WIDTH="70%"></H3>
</FORM>


<BR><BR><A HREF="mailto:www-admin xxx.lanl.gov">www-admin@xxx.lanl.gov</A> </P>
</BODY>
</HTML>

--------------9F986D2D253186F716E14871--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 08:09:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07621;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:08:14 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:08:14 -0700
From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
Message-Id: <v0300780cb1d524cefe65 [198.133.146.230]>
In-Reply-To: <35AC6140.A0A5E71A ihug.co.nz>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980714102104.121C-100000 iesun9>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:10:07 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: How 'FREE-ENERGY' is implicated in CONVENTIONAL
 ELECTRODYNAMICS!!!!! Re: the Minato, John Berry's mesg.
Resent-Message-ID: <"aU8pC3.0._s1.TZshr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20676
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John Berry wrote:
> I challenge anyone to show that any part of this not totally in agreement
>with conventional electrodynamics, The physics of this are ALL totally
>conventional and only the realization that it predicts Free-Energy is not
>realized in convention.

1. John forgot to include the principal interaction (at subrelativistic
velocities) between charged particles---the Coulomb electric field.

2. Other than that major oversight, what he describes in words and pictures
is the electromagnetic interaction between free charged particles. This is
one of the classic problems of plasma physics. Plasmas consist of large
numbers of charged particles.

3. In the context of the John's ideas and the discussion it has generated,
the main new phemonenon is electromagnetic radiation. The charges are
jerked around by each other's fields, and the resulting randomlike
accelerations produce EM radiation. Radiation produced by this mechanism is
called plasma bremsstrahlung. It is closely related to classical
bremsstrahlung, which is radiated by the wiggles of an energetic electron
subject passing through a solid material and subject to the EM fields of
its constituent atoms.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 13:04:11 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25507;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:56:15 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:56:15 -0700
X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 (Unverified)
Message-Id: <v03020900b1d55b1792fe [128.183.200.195]>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980716152634.007e2950 world.std.com>
References: <v03020902b1d3feb89fb9 [128.183.200.195]>
 <3.0.5.32.19980713110152.007e2810 world.std.com>
 <199807131031_MC2-52EA-63BE compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:55:54 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Maoka and Enyo paper
Resent-Message-ID: <"EM5OG2.0.TE6.Vnwhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20677
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Responding to Mitchell Swartz:
>
>> The GEET device, which has been operated with
>>part urine fuel, does apear to work.
>
>  Please clarify.
>
>Lawrence Wharton claims GEET is overunity.
>It that based upon NASA or other reports, or
>what was written in Infinite Energy?
>
>
>>  The Aqua Fuel system also works. A
>>few other devices covered there also seem to work.
>
> Lawrence Wharton claims Aqua Fuel is overunity.
>Ok.  It that based upon NASA reports seen or published
>or what was written in Infinite Energy?
>
I did not mean to imply that any of the devices were overunity but rather
that they performed a useful function in using fuels more efficiently.

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 13:28:11 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12232;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:11:26 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:11:26 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <01BDB193.BEAC1760.stk sunherald.infi.net>
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: TEST
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:01:13 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"pT9Oj.0._-2.g_whr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20678
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Kyle R. Mcallister
Email: stk sunherald.infi.net
Phone: 228-875-0629
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/5257

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 13:26:37 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29072;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:20:16 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:20:16 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980717161559.007f8100 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:15:59 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Maoka and Enyo paper
In-Reply-To: <v03020900b1d55b1792fe [128.183.200.195]>
References: <3.0.5.32.19980716152634.007e2950 world.std.com>
 <v03020902b1d3feb89fb9 [128.183.200.195]>
 <3.0.5.32.19980713110152.007e2810 world.std.com>
 <199807131031_MC2-52EA-63BE compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"ssrlA2.0.A67._7xhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20679
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 03:55 PM 7/17/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Responding to Mitchell Swartz:
>>
>>> The GEET device, which has been operated with
>>>part urine fuel, does apear to work.
>>
>>  Please clarify.
>>
>>Lawrence Wharton claims GEET is overunity.
>>It that based upon NASA or other reports, or
>>what was written in Infinite Energy?
>>
>>
>>>  The Aqua Fuel system also works. A
>>>few other devices covered there also seem to work.
>>
>> Lawrence Wharton claims Aqua Fuel is overunity.
>>Ok.  It that based upon NASA reports seen or published
>>or what was written in Infinite Energy?
>>
>I did not mean to imply that any of the devices were overunity but rather
>that they performed a useful function in using fuels more efficiently.
>
>Lawrence E. Wharton
>NASA/GSFC code 913
>Greenbelt MD 20771
>(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov
>


   OK.  Not overunity.

   Where is the data that the purported urine engine
"us(es) fuels more efficiently"?

    Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 14:35:28 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09013;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:33:08 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:33:08 -0700
Message-ID: <35B0CE1C.C6BD6EDE ihug.co.nz>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:32:28 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: How 'FREE-ENERGY' is implicated in CONVENTIONAL
	 ELECTRODYNAMICS!!!!! Re: the Minato, John Berry's mesg.
References: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980714102104.121C-100000 iesun9> <v0300780cb1d524cefe65@[198.133.146.230]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"n3d_b2.0.jC2.KCyhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20680
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:

> John Berry wrote:
> > I challenge anyone to show that any part of this not totally in agreement
> >with conventional electrodynamics, The physics of this are ALL totally
> >conventional and only the realization that it predicts Free-Energy is not
> >realized in convention.
>
> 1. John forgot to include the principal interaction (at subrelativistic
> velocities) between charged particles---the Coulomb electric field.

I decided to ignore that as I wanted not to cloud what was going to be hard
enough to see, static plays no important part (except for creating the B field
but few would know that the E field does that)

> 2. Other than that major oversight, what he describes in words and pictures
> is the electromagnetic interaction between free charged particles. This is
> one of the classic problems of plasma physics. Plasmas consist of large
> numbers of charged particles.
>
> 3. In the context of the John's ideas and the discussion it has generated,
> the main new phemonenon is electromagnetic radiation. The charges are
> jerked around by each other's fields, and the resulting randomlike
> accelerations produce EM radiation. Radiation produced by this mechanism is
> called plasma bremsstrahlung. It is closely related to classical
> bremsstrahlung, which is radiated by the wiggles of an energetic electron
> subject passing through a solid material and subject to the EM fields of
> its constituent atoms.

Well it is still free "bremsstrahlung" in my view ;-)

>
>
> Michael J. Schaffer
> General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
> Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 14:43:33 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26803;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:37:29 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:37:29 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:23:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: Polarization modulation paper
In-Reply-To: <01BDB0A7.E3ADFF20.stk sunherald.infi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980717172138.6828A college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"zSWcL3.0.jY6.NGyhr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20681
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Vo.,

	I am using poor keyboard, please  forgive typos.  I read this 
paper.  It is a straight forward engineering to launch directed 100 to 
1000 watt polarized RF.

	Any interested parties contact off line.

				John

On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

> All:
> 
> Yesterday I promised I would post the reference to the information about polarization modulation. Most of it is at
> 
> http://www.unitelnw.com/fronbart.htm
> 
> The reference down at the bottom of the page mentions a man named Mikhailov who did the ferromagnetic aerosol experiments I mentioned.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Kyle R. Mcallister
> Email: stk sunherald.infi.net
> Phone: 228-875-0629
> http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/5257
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 16:05:55 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26683;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:00:00 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:00:00 -0700
Message-ID: <001e01bdb1d6$192f7460$2f8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: United States Patent 4,608,136 (http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:55:24 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDB1A3.B1941720"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"thgTS3.0.jW6.lTzhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20682
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDB1A3.B1941720
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=20

[USPTO]=20
        ( 1 of 1 )=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
United States Patent  4,608,136=20
            Vaughan, deceased, et. al. * Aug. 26, 1986=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Oxidation of carbonaceous material and electrodeposition of a metal at =
the cathode of an electrolytic cell Inventors:  Vaughan, deceased; =
Ronald J. (late of Orinda, CA); by Bank of America NT&SA, administrator =
(Walnut Creek, CA). =20
            Assignee:  Chevron Research Company (San Francisco, CA). =20
            [*]Notice:  The portion of the term of this patent =
subsequent to Jun. 21, 2000 has been disclaimed.=20
            Appl. No.:  759,538=20
            Filed:  Jul. 26, 1985=20
   =20

Related U.S. Application Data
Continuation-in-part of Ser No. 653,980, Sept. 21, 1984, abandoned, =
which is a continuation-in-part of Ser. No. 496,798, May 23, 1983, =
abandoned.=20
   =20
Intl. Cl. :  C25C 1/00=20
            Current U.S. Cl.:  205/574; 205/560; 205/564; 205/571; =
205/572; 205/573; 205/576; 205/587; 205/594; 205/597; 205/602; 423/40; =
423/138=20
            Field of Search:  204/105 R, 105 M, 106-108, 109-119; =
423/138, 40; 75/104, 119=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

References Cited | [Referenced By]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

U.S. Patent Documents
3,761,369 Sept., 1973 Tirrell 204/108=20
            3,920,791 Nov., 1975 Meyers 423/461=20
            4,081,338 Mar., 1978 Golovoy 204/149=20
            4,194,972 Mar., 1980 Weintraub et al. 210/44=20
            4,268,363 May, 1981 Coughlin 204/108=20
            4,341,608 Jul., 1982 St. John 204/129=20
            4,389,288 Jun., 1983 Vaughan 204/101=20
            4,405,420 Sept., 1983 Vaughan 204/114=20
            4,412,893 Nov., 1983 Fray 204/105.2=20
   =20

Foreign Patent Documents
2087431 May, 1982 GB 204/105.R=20
   =20
    Other References
    "Electrochemical Studies of Coal Slurry Oxidation Mechanisms", by =
Dooge et al., J. Electrochemical Soc., Aug., 1982, p. 1719.=20

    Websters 7th New Collegiate Dictionary, p. 489.=20

    "Principles of Extractive Metallurgy", vol. 2, F. Habashi, Grodon & =
Breach Publishers, 1970, p. 189.=20

    Merck Index, 3960 and 3982 (10th Ed.).=20

    Rallo, "Anodic Oxidation of Coal Slurries", Internat'l Soc. of =
Electrochem.=20

    "High Rate of Aqueous Anodic Oxidation of Carbonaceous Crude Fuels", =
by Clarke et al., ECS, May 1983.=20


Primary Examiner: Andrews; R. L.
Attorney, Agent or Firm: LaPaglia; S. R., Gaffney; R. C., Swiss; G. F.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Abstract

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

A metal is electrodeposited in a continuous cyclic electrolytic/carbon =
oxidation process wherein ferrous ion is oxidized at the anode and a =
metal is deposited at the cathode of an electrolytic cell. The ferric =
ions produced at the anode are thereafter reduced to ferrous ions by =
contact with a solid carbonaceous material and the ferrous ions are =
recycled for electrochemical reoxidation.=20


11 Claims, 3 Drawing Figures

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

[USPTO]=20
        ( 1 of 1 )=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------


------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDB1A3.B1941720
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>United States Patent =
4,608,136</TITLE><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+19421+=
0+2+49305+OF+1+1+1+Dooge><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><A name=3Dtop></A>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/help/help.html"><IMG =
alt=3D[Help]=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/help.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/index.html"><IMG alt=3D[Home] =
border=3D0 height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/home.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-bool.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Boolean Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/boolean.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-adv.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D[Advanced] border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/advanced.gif" =
width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-num.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Number Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/number.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptcs/"><IMG =
alt=3D"[Order Copy]"=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/copy.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptdl/"><IMG alt=3D[PTDLs] border=3D0 =
height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/ptdl.gif" width=3D63></A> </CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> </CENTER>
<TABLE border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40>&nbsp; </TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40>&nbsp; </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilist4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+19421+=
1+OF+1+0+Dooge"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Back to List]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/list.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dbottom width=3D500><FONT size=3D-1>(=20
            <STRONG>1</STRONG></FONT> <FONT size=3D-2>of</FONT> =
<STRONG><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>1</STRONG> )</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>

<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>United States Patent </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>4,608,136</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>Vaughan, deceased, et. =
al.</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>* Aug. 26, =
1986</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>
<B>Oxidation of carbonaceous material and electrodeposition of a metal =
at the=20
cathode of an electrolytic cell </B>
<TABLE>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Inventors: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Vaughan, deceased; Ronald J.</B> (late of =
Orinda,=20
            CA); <B>by Bank of America NT&amp;SA, administrator</B> =
(Walnut=20
            Creek, CA). </TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Assignee: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Chevron Research Company</B> (San Francisco, =
CA).=20
    </TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>[*]</B>Notice: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>The portion of the term of this patent =
subsequent to=20
            Jun. 21, 2000 has been disclaimed.</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Appl. No.: </TD>
        <TD><B>759,538</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Filed: </TD>
        <TD><B>Jul. 26, 1985</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P>
<CENTER><B>Related U.S. Application Data</B></CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D95%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD>Continuation-in-part of Ser No. 653,980, Sept. 21, 1984,=20
            abandoned, which is a continuation-in-part of Ser. No. =
496,798, May=20
            23, 1983, abandoned.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Intl. Cl. : </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>C25C 1/00</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Current U.S. Cl.: </B><!--CCL =
Hit--></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>205/574</B>; 205/560; 205/564; =
205/571;=20
            205/572; 205/573; 205/576; 205/587; 205/594; 205/597; =
205/602;=20
            423/40; 423/138</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Field of Search: =
</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>204</B>/105 R, 105 =
M,=20
            106-108, 109-119; <B>423</B>/138, 40; <B>75</B>/104,=20
119</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>References Cited | <A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ref_srch4?INDEX+0+4608136+F">[Re=
ferenced=20
By]</A></B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER>U.S. Patent Documents</CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D90%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,761,369</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Sept., 1973</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Tirrell</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/108</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,920,791</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Nov., 1975</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Meyers</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>423</B>/461</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4081338+F">4,081,=
338</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Mar., 1978</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Golovoy</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/149</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4194972+F">4,194,=
972</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Mar., 1980</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Weintraub et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>210</B>/44</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4268363+F">4,268,=
363</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>May, 1981</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Coughlin</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/108</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4341608+F">4,341,=
608</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jul., 1982</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>St. John</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/129</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4389288+F">4,389,=
288</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1983</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Vaughan</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/101</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4405420+F">4,405,=
420</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Sept., 1983</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Vaughan</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/114</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4412893+F">4,412,=
893</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Nov., 1983</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Fray</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright =
width=3D25%><B>204</B>/105.2</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER>Foreign Patent Documents</CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D90%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>2087431</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>May, 1982</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>GB</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright =
width=3D25%>204/105.R</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<DL>
    <DD>
    <CENTER>Other References</CENTER>
    <DD>
    <P>&quot;Electrochemical Studies of Coal Slurry Oxidation =
Mechanisms&quot;,=20
    by <B><I>Dooge</I></B> et al., J. Electrochemical Soc., Aug., 1982, =
p. 1719.=20
   =20
    <P>Websters 7th New Collegiate Dictionary, p. 489.=20
    <P>&quot;Principles of Extractive Metallurgy&quot;, vol. 2, F. =
Habashi,=20
    Grodon &amp; Breach Publishers, 1970, p. 189.=20
    <P>Merck Index, 3960 and 3982 (10th Ed.).=20
    <P>Rallo, &quot;Anodic Oxidation of Coal Slurries&quot;, Internat'l =
Soc. of=20
    Electrochem.=20
    <P>&quot;High Rate of Aqueous Anodic Oxidation of Carbonaceous Crude =

    Fuels&quot;, by Clarke et al., ECS, May 1983. =
</P></DD></DL><BR><I>Primary=20
Examiner: </I>Andrews; R. L.<BR><I>Attorney, Agent or Firm: =
</I>LaPaglia; S. R.,=20
Gaffney; R. C., Swiss; G. F.<BR>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>Abstract</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<P>A metal is electrodeposited in a continuous cyclic =
electrolytic/carbon=20
oxidation process wherein ferrous ion is oxidized at the anode and a =
metal is=20
deposited at the cathode of an electrolytic cell. The ferric ions =
produced at=20
the anode are thereafter reduced to ferrous ions by contact with a solid =

carbonaceous material and the ferrous ions are recycled for =
electrochemical=20
reoxidation.=20
<P>
<CENTER><B>11 Claims, </B><B>3 Drawing Figures</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> </CENTER>
<TABLE border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40>&nbsp; </TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40>&nbsp; </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilist4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+19421+=
1+OF+1+0+Dooge"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Back to List]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/list.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dbottom width=3D500><FONT size=3D-1>(=20
            <STRONG>1</STRONG></FONT> <FONT size=3D-2>of</FONT> =
<STRONG><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>1</STRONG> )</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>
</BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDB1A3.B1941720--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 16:16:18 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27954;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:04:47 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:04:47 -0700
Message-ID: <002301bdb1d6$c319af40$2f8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: United States Patent 5,756,874 (http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:00:45 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01BDB1A4.70EEE820"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"Ja57H2.0.iq6.EYzhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20683
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BDB1A4.70EEE820
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=20

[USPTO]=20
       ( 1 of 43 )=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
United States Patent  5,756,874=20
            Steward May 26, 1998=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Electrochemical cell for processing organic wastes Inventors:  Steward; =
G. Anthony (Los Altos Hills, CA). =20
            Assignee:  Eosystems, Inc. (Sunnyvale, CA). =20
            Appl. No.:  540,531=20
            Filed:  Oct. 10, 1995=20
Intl. Cl. :  C02F 1/461=20
            Current U.S. Cl.:  588/204; 204/255; 204/257; 204/263; =
204/268; 204/269; 204/275; 205/688; 205/703; 205/743; 205/748; 205/749=20
            Field of Search:  204/255, 257, 263, 268, 269, 275; 205/688, =
703, 743, 748, 749; 588/204=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

References Cited | [Referenced By]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

U.S. Patent Documents
3,269,932 Aug., 1966 C. H. Worsham et al. =20
            3,755,130 Aug., 1973 Zabolotny 204/237=20
            3,793,171 Feb., 1974 Zabolotny et al. 240/130=20
            3,890,244 Jun., 1975 Carlin 252/301.1=20
            3,953,305 Apr., 1976 Connolly 204/97=20
            3,994,790 Nov., 1976 Inoue 204/130=20
            4,004,993 Jan., 1977 Horner et al. 204/131=20
            4,118,294 Oct., 1978 Pellegri =20
            4,389,288 Jun., 1983 Vaughan 204/101=20
            4,405,420 Sept., 1983 Vaughan 204/105.M=20
            4,468,297 Aug., 1984 Sawyer et al. 204/59.R=20
            4,564,432 Jan., 1986 Nagai et al. 204/237=20
            4,592,814 Jun., 1986 Vaughan et al. 204/78=20
            4,608,136 Aug., 1986 Vaughan et al. 204/106=20
            4,608,137 Aug., 1986 Vaughan et al. 204/129=20
            4,647,349 Mar., 1987 Kreh et al. 204/59.R=20
            4,692,227 Sept., 1987 Spotnitz et al. 205/703=20
            4,699,700 Oct., 1987 Dhooge 204/105.R=20
            4,701,246 Oct., 1987 Fujita et al. 204/130=20
            4,749,519 Jun., 1988 Koehly et al. 252/627=20
            4,752,364 Jun., 1988 Dhooge 204/151=20
            4,874,485 Oct., 1989 Steele 204/130=20
            4,925,540 May, 1990 Dhooge 204/157.42=20
            4,925,643 May, 1990 Steele 423/393=20
            5,047,224 Sept., 1991 Dhooge 423/437=20
            5,516,972 May, 1996 Farmer et al. 588/210=20
   =20

Foreign Patent Documents
0 089 185 A3 Sept., 1983 EP =20
            0 297 738 A1 Jan., 1989 EP =20
            431 313 A1 Oct., 1990 EP =20
            C 25 B 9/00 Sept., 1993 DE =20
            2 206 341 Jan., 1989 GB =20
            2 226 331 Jun., 1990 GB =20
            WO 94/29907 Dec., 1994 WO =20
   =20
    Other References
    D.F. Steele, Electrochemistry and waste disposal, Chemistry in =
Britain, Oct. (1991), pp. 915-918.=20

    D.F. Steel, Electrochemical destruction of toxic organic industrial =
waste, Platinum Metals Rev., (1990), 34, (1), 10-14. (no month).=20

    D.F. Steel, D. Richardson, J.D. Campbell, D.R. Craig and J.D. Quinn, =
I. Chem. E. Symposium Series No. 116, pp. 237-249. (no date).=20

    L. Carlsson, B. Sandgren and D. Simonsson, Design and Performance of =
a Modular, Multi-purpose Electrochemical Reactor, J.Electrochem.Soc., =
Feb (1993), 130, (2), pp. 342-346.=20

    E. Mentasi and L. J. Kirschenbaum, Oxidation of Organic Compounds by =
ilver (II), Reactions with Aliphatic Diols and .alpha.-Hydroxy Acids, =
Inorganica Chimica Acta, 134, (1987), pp. 283-288. (no month).=20

    D. Pletcher and F. C. Walsh, Industrial Electrochemistry, Second =
Edition, Chapman and Hall, Ltd., New York, 1990. (no month).=20

    M. Buehler and J. Surma, "Electrochemical Processes" in Separation =
Techniques in Nuclear Waste Management, T. E. Carlson, N.A. Chipman and =
C.M. Wai, eds., CRC Press., Boca Raton, 1996, pp. 91-107. (no month).=20

    L.A. Bray, J.L. Ryan and E.J. Wheelwright, Development of CEPOD =
Process for Dissolving Plutonium Oxide and LEaching Plutonium for =
Scraps, Prepared for the U.S. Dept. of Energy under Contract =
DE-AC06-76RLO 1830. Nov. 1985.=20

    Brochure entitled "The EC Eclectro MP-Cell, " ElectroCell AB, =
Sweden. (no date).=20

    Brochure entitled "ICI Technical Newsheet, the FM21 Electrolyser fo =
Electrosynthesis: The Associated Materials Engineering Considerations," =
ICI Chemicals & Polymers Limited Electrochemical Technology, Great =
Britain. (no date).=20

    Brochure entitled "The ICI Technical Advantage," ICI Chemicals & =
Polymers Limited Electrochemical Technology, Great Britain. (no date).=20

    Brochure entitled "The FM01-LC Electrolyser," ICI Chemicals & =
Polymers Limited Electrochemical Technology, Great Britain. (no date).=20


Primary Examiner: Phasge; Arun S.
Attorney, Agent or Firm: Townsend and Townsend and CrewChambers; Guy W.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Abstract

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

An electrochemical cell (20) which is effectively leakproof and can be =
incorporated into an easily serviceable cell pack (80). Within the cell =
are a plurality of parallel electrode plates (44, 46, 56) which act as =
anode and cathode reaction surfaces for processing chemicals. The =
electrochemical cell housing (33) is preferably formed of durable =
plastic with all fluid inlets (36, 38) and outlets (40, 42) on its upper =
face (30). One or more input manifolds (48, 50) are provided to route =
process chemicals to the bottom of the cell and then distribute them =
upward across the electrode plates. The housing is formed as a =
one-piece, monolithic structure with an opening left on top for fitting =
the top face. At the end of cell assembly, the top face is attached to =
the remainder of the cell housing so as to form a sealed cell.=20


30 Claims, 7 Drawing Figures

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

[USPTO]=20
       ( 1 of 43 )=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------


------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BDB1A4.70EEE820
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>United States Patent =
5,756,874</TITLE><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+19855+=
0+6+58294+OF+1+43+1+Dhooge><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><A name=3Dtop></A>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/help/help.html"><IMG =
alt=3D[Help]=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/help.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/index.html"><IMG alt=3D[Home] =
border=3D0 height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/home.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-bool.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Boolean Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/boolean.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-adv.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D[Advanced] border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/advanced.gif" =
width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-num.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Number Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/number.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptcs/"><IMG =
alt=3D"[Order Copy]"=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/copy.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptdl/"><IMG alt=3D[PTDLs] border=3D0 =
height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/ptdl.gif" width=3D63></A> </CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> </CENTER>
<TABLE border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40>&nbsp; </TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+19855=
+0+-1+-1+OF+2+43+1+Dhooge"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Next Patent]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/next.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilist4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+19855+=
43+OF+1+0+Dhooge"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Back to List]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/list.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dbottom width=3D500><FONT size=3D-1>(=20
            <STRONG>1</STRONG></FONT> <FONT size=3D-2>of</FONT> =
<STRONG><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>43</STRONG> )</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>

<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>United States Patent </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>5,756,874</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>Steward</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>May 26, =
1998</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>
<B>Electrochemical cell for processing organic wastes </B>
<TABLE>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Inventors: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Steward; G. Anthony</B> (Los Altos Hills, =
CA). </TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Assignee: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Eosystems, Inc.</B> (Sunnyvale, CA). =
</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Appl. No.: </TD>
        <TD><B>540,531</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Filed: </TD>
        <TD><B>Oct. 10, 1995</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Intl. Cl. : </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>C02F 1/461</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Current U.S. Cl.: </B><!--CCL =
Hit--></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>588/204</B>; 204/255; 204/257; =
204/263;=20
            204/268; 204/269; 204/275; 205/688; 205/703; 205/743; =
205/748;=20
            205/749</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Field of Search: =
</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>204</B>/255, 257, =
263, 268,=20
            269, 275; <B>205</B>/688, 703, 743, 748, 749;=20
    <B>588</B>/204</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>References Cited | <A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ref_srch4?INDEX+0+5756874+F">[Re=
ferenced=20
By]</A></B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER>U.S. Patent Documents</CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D90%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,269,932</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Aug., 1966</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>C. H. Worsham et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,755,130</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Aug., 1973</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Zabolotny</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/237</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,793,171</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Feb., 1974</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Zabolotny et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>240</B>/130</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,890,244</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1975</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Carlin</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>252</B>/301.1</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+3953305+F">3,953,=
305</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Apr., 1976</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Connolly</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/97</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+3994790+F">3,994,=
790</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Nov., 1976</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Inoue</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/130</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4004993+F">4,004,=
993</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jan., 1977</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Horner et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/131</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4118294+F">4,118,=
294</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Oct., 1978</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Pellegri</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4389288+F">4,389,=
288</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1983</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Vaughan</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/101</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4405420+F">4,405,=
420</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Sept., 1983</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Vaughan</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/105.M</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4468297+F">4,468,=
297</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Aug., 1984</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Sawyer et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/59.R</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4564432+F">4,564,=
432</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jan., 1986</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Nagai et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/237</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4592814+F">4,592,=
814</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1986</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Vaughan et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/78</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4608136+F">4,608,=
136</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Aug., 1986</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Vaughan et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/106</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4608137+F">4,608,=
137</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Aug., 1986</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Vaughan et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/129</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4647349+F">4,647,=
349</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Mar., 1987</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Kreh et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/59.R</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4692227+F">4,692,=
227</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Sept., 1987</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Spotnitz et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>205</B>/703</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4699700+F">4,699,=
700</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Oct., 1987</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%><B><I>Dhooge</I></B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/105.R</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4701246+F">4,701,=
246</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Oct., 1987</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Fujita et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/130</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4749519+F">4,749,=
519</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1988</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Koehly et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>252</B>/627</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4752364+F">4,752,=
364</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1988</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%><B><I>Dhooge</I></B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/151</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4874485+F">4,874,=
485</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Oct., 1989</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Steele</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/130</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4925540+F">4,925,=
540</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>May, 1990</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%><B><I>Dhooge</I></B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/157.42</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4925643+F">4,925,=
643</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>May, 1990</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Steele</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>423</B>/393</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+5047224+F">5,047,=
224</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Sept., 1991</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%><B><I>Dhooge</I></B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>423</B>/437</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+5516972+F">5,516,=
972</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>May, 1996</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Farmer et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright =
width=3D25%><B>588</B>/210</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER>Foreign Patent Documents</CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D90%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>0 089 185 A3</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Sept., 1983</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>EP</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>0 297 738 A1</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jan., 1989</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>EP</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>431 313 A1</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Oct., 1990</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>EP</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>C 25 B 9/00</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Sept., 1993</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>DE</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>2 206 341</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jan., 1989</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>GB</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>2 226 331</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1990</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>GB</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>WO 94/29907</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Dec., 1994</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>WO</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright =
width=3D25%></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<DL>
    <DD>
    <CENTER>Other References</CENTER>
    <DD>
    <P>D.F. Steele, Electrochemistry and waste disposal, Chemistry in =
Britain,=20
    Oct. (1991), pp. 915-918.=20
    <P>D.F. Steel, Electrochemical destruction of toxic organic =
industrial=20
    waste, Platinum Metals Rev., (1990), 34, (1), 10-14. (no month).=20
    <P>D.F. Steel, D. Richardson, J.D. Campbell, D.R. Craig and J.D. =
Quinn, I.=20
    Chem. E. Symposium Series No. 116, pp. 237-249. (no date).=20
    <P>L. Carlsson, B. Sandgren and D. Simonsson, Design and Performance =
of a=20
    Modular, Multi-purpose Electrochemical Reactor, J.Electrochem.Soc., =
Feb=20
    (1993), 130, (2), pp. 342-346.=20
    <P>E. Mentasi and L. J. Kirschenbaum, Oxidation of Organic Compounds =
by=20
    ilver (II), Reactions with Aliphatic Diols and .alpha.-Hydroxy =
Acids,=20
    Inorganica Chimica Acta, 134, (1987), pp. 283-288. (no month).=20
    <P>D. Pletcher and F. C. Walsh, Industrial Electrochemistry, Second =
Edition,=20
    Chapman and Hall, Ltd., New York, 1990. (no month).=20
    <P>M. Buehler and J. Surma, &quot;Electrochemical Processes&quot; in =

    Separation Techniques in Nuclear Waste Management, T. E. Carlson, =
N.A.=20
    Chipman and C.M. Wai, eds., CRC Press., Boca Raton, 1996, pp. =
91-107. (no=20
    month).=20
    <P>L.A. Bray, J.L. Ryan and E.J. Wheelwright, Development of CEPOD =
Process=20
    for Dissolving Plutonium Oxide and LEaching Plutonium for Scraps, =
Prepared=20
    for the U.S. Dept. of Energy under Contract DE-AC06-76RLO 1830. Nov. =
1985.=20
    <P>Brochure entitled &quot;The EC Eclectro MP-Cell, &quot; =
ElectroCell AB,=20
    Sweden. (no date).=20
    <P>Brochure entitled &quot;ICI Technical Newsheet, the FM21 =
Electrolyser fo=20
    Electrosynthesis: The Associated Materials Engineering =
Considerations,&quot;=20
    ICI Chemicals &amp; Polymers Limited Electrochemical Technology, =
Great=20
    Britain. (no date).=20
    <P>Brochure entitled &quot;The ICI Technical Advantage,&quot; ICI =
Chemicals=20
    &amp; Polymers Limited Electrochemical Technology, Great Britain. =
(no date).=20
   =20
    <P>Brochure entitled &quot;The FM01-LC Electrolyser,&quot; ICI =
Chemicals=20
    &amp; Polymers Limited Electrochemical Technology, Great Britain. =
(no date).=20
    </P></DD></DL><BR><I>Primary Examiner: </I>Phasge; Arun =
S.<BR><I>Attorney, Agent=20
or Firm: </I>Townsend and Townsend and CrewChambers; Guy W.<BR>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>Abstract</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<P>An electrochemical cell (20) which is effectively leakproof and can =
be=20
incorporated into an easily serviceable cell pack (80). Within the cell =
are a=20
plurality of parallel electrode plates (44, 46, 56) which act as anode =
and=20
cathode reaction surfaces for processing chemicals. The electrochemical =
cell=20
housing (33) is preferably formed of durable plastic with all fluid =
inlets (36,=20
38) and outlets (40, 42) on its upper face (30). One or more input =
manifolds=20
(48, 50) are provided to route process chemicals to the bottom of the =
cell and=20
then distribute them upward across the electrode plates. The housing is =
formed=20
as a one-piece, monolithic structure with an opening left on top for =
fitting the=20
top face. At the end of cell assembly, the top face is attached to the =
remainder=20
of the cell housing so as to form a sealed cell.=20
<P>
<CENTER><B>30 Claims, </B><B>7 Drawing Figures</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> </CENTER>
<TABLE border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40>&nbsp; </TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+19855=
+0+-1+-1+OF+2+43+1+Dhooge"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Next Patent]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/next.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilist4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+19855+=
43+OF+1+0+Dhooge"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Back to List]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/list.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dbottom width=3D500><FONT size=3D-1>(=20
            <STRONG>1</STRONG></FONT> <FONT size=3D-2>of</FONT> =
<STRONG><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>43</STRONG> )</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>
</BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BDB1A4.70EEE820--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 16:18:30 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA31145;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:11:07 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:11:07 -0700
Message-ID: <002601bdb1d7$99d378e0$2f8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: United States Patent 5,047,224 (http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:03:23 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01BDB1A4.CE989160"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"6ivF32.0.Sc7.Aezhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20687
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BDB1A4.CE989160
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=20

[USPTO]=20
United States Patent  5,047,224=20
            Dhooge Sept. 10, 1991=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Method for treating organic waste material and an oxidation =
catalyst/cocatalyst composition useful therefor Inventors:  Dhooge; =
Patrick M. (Corrales, NM). =20
            Assignee:  Delphi Research, Inc. (Albuquerque, NM). =20
            Appl. No.:  395,649=20
            Filed:  Aug. 18, 1989=20
   =20

Related U.S. Application Data
Continuation-in-part of Ser No. 253,232, Oct. 4, 1988, Pat. No. =
4,925,540.=20
   =20
Intl. Cl. :  C01B 31/20=20
            Current U.S. Cl.:  423/437.1; 110/346; 210/763; 423/DIG 18; =
502/225; 502/229; 502/331; 502/338=20
            Field of Search:  423/DIG. 18, 437; 210/763; 110/346; 48/197 =
A; 502/225, 229, 331, 338=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

References Cited | [Referenced By]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

U.S. Patent Documents
3,641,157 Feb., 1972 Riegel et al. 568/431=20
            3,644,561 Feb., 1972 Beard, Jr. 585/657=20
            3,658,933 Apr., 1972 Beard, Jr. 585/657=20
            4,206,186 Jun., 1980 Holter et al. 423/DIG.18=20
            4,443,342 Apr., 1984 Stas et al. 210/763=20
            4,537,686 Aug., 1985 Borbely et al. 210/713=20
            4,552,668 Nov., 1985 Brown et al. 423/DIG.19=20
            4,582,690 Apr., 1986 Rempel et al. 423/544=20
            4,624,792 Nov., 1986 Yamanaka et al. 210/763=20
            4,699,700 Oct., 1987 Dhooge 502/224=20
            4,752,364 Jun., 1988 Dhooge 204/151=20
            4,925,540 May, 1990 Dhooge 204/157.042=20
   =20
Primary Examiner: McFarlane; Anthony
Attorney, Agent or Firm: Berman, Aisenberg & Platt



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Abstract

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

An oxidation catalysts/cocatalyst composition of matter is useful in =
oxidizing organic waste material. Use of the oxidation =
catalysts/cocatalyst composition causes the reaction rate to increase =
and causes the energy required for the reaction to decrease. A solution, =
including the oxidation catalysts/cocatalyst composition, and a reaction =
medium composition further including organic waste material are also =
described.=20


21 Claims, 2 Drawing Figures

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

[USPTO]=20

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BDB1A4.CE989160
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>United States Patent =
5,047,224</TITLE><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+5047224+F><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><A name=3Dtop></A>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/help/help.html"><IMG =
alt=3D[Help]=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/help.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/index.html"><IMG alt=3D[Home] =
border=3D0 height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/home.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-bool.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Boolean Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/boolean.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-adv.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D[Advanced] border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/advanced.gif" =
width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-num.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Number Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/number.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptcs/"><IMG =
alt=3D"[Order Copy]"=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/copy.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptdl/"><IMG alt=3D[PTDLs] border=3D0 =
height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/ptdl.gif" width=3D63></A> </CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> </CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>United States Patent </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>5,047,224</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>Dhooge</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>Sept. 10, =
1991</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>
<B>Method for treating organic waste material and an oxidation=20
catalyst/cocatalyst composition useful therefor </B>
<TABLE>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Inventors: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Dhooge; Patrick M.</B> (Corrales, NM). =
</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Assignee: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Delphi Research, Inc.</B> (Albuquerque, NM). =
</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Appl. No.: </TD>
        <TD><B>395,649</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Filed: </TD>
        <TD><B>Aug. 18, 1989</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P>
<CENTER><B>Related U.S. Application Data</B></CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D95%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD>Continuation-in-part of Ser No. 253,232, Oct. 4, 1988, Pat. =
No.=20
            <A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4925540+F">4,925,=
540</A>.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Intl. Cl. : </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>C01B 31/20</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Current U.S. Cl.: </B><!--CCL =
Hit--></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>423/437.1</B>; 110/346; =
210/763;=20
            423/DIG 18; 502/225; 502/229; 502/331; 502/338</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Field of Search: =
</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>423</B>/DIG. 18, =
437;=20
            <B>210</B>/763; <B>110</B>/346; <B>48</B>/197 A; =
<B>502</B>/225,=20
            229, 331, 338</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>References Cited | <A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ref_srch4?INDEX+0+5047224+F">[Re=
ferenced=20
By]</A></B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER>U.S. Patent Documents</CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D90%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,641,157</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Feb., 1972</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Riegel et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>568</B>/431</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,644,561</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Feb., 1972</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Beard, Jr.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>585</B>/657</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,658,933</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Apr., 1972</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Beard, Jr.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>585</B>/657</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4206186+F">4,206,=
186</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1980</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Holter et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>423</B>/DIG.18</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4443342+F">4,443,=
342</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Apr., 1984</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Stas et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>210</B>/763</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4537686+F">4,537,=
686</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Aug., 1985</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Borbely et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>210</B>/713</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4552668+F">4,552,=
668</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Nov., 1985</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Brown et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>423</B>/DIG.19</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4582690+F">4,582,=
690</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Apr., 1986</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Rempel et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>423</B>/544</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4624792+F">4,624,=
792</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Nov., 1986</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Yamanaka et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>210</B>/763</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4699700+F">4,699,=
700</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Oct., 1987</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Dhooge</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>502</B>/224</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4752364+F">4,752,=
364</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1988</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Dhooge</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/151</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4925540+F">4,925,=
540</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>May, 1990</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Dhooge</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright =
width=3D25%><B>204</B>/157.042</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<P><I>Primary Examiner: </I>McFarlane; Anthony<BR><I>Attorney, Agent or =
Firm:=20
</I>Berman, Aisenberg &amp; Platt<BR>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>Abstract</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<P>An oxidation catalysts/cocatalyst composition of matter is useful in=20
oxidizing organic waste material. Use of the oxidation =
catalysts/cocatalyst=20
composition causes the reaction rate to increase and causes the energy =
required=20
for the reaction to decrease. A solution, including the oxidation=20
catalysts/cocatalyst composition, and a reaction medium composition =
further=20
including organic waste material are also described.=20
<P>
<CENTER><B>21 Claims, </B><B>2 Drawing Figures</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> =
</CENTER></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BDB1A4.CE989160--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 16:19:06 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA31041;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:10:57 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:10:57 -0700
Message-ID: <002901bdb1d7$9f863660$2f8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: United States Patent 4,699,700 (http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:05:43 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01BDB1A5.220C6600"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"oWcE61.0.wa7.1ezhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20686
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BDB1A5.220C6600
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=20

[USPTO]=20
United States Patent  4,699,700=20
            Dhooge Oct. 13, 1987=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Method for hydrogen production and metal winning, and a =
catalyst/cocatalyst composition useful therefor Inventors:  Dhooge; =
Patrick M. (Corrales, NM). =20
            Assignee:  Delphi Research, Inc. (Albuquerque, NM). =20
            Appl. No.:  864,411=20
            Filed:  May 19, 1986=20
Intl. Cl. :  C25B 1/02=20
            Current U.S. Cl.:  205/560; 204/291; 204/294; 205/638; =
502/224; 502/230; 502/304; 502/338=20
            Field of Search:  502/224, 230, 304, 338; 204/129, 105 R, =
130, 294, 291; 106/1=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

References Cited | [Referenced By]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

U.S. Patent Documents
2,433,871 Jan., 1948 Sutherland et al. 204/129=20
            3,884,952 May, 1975 Kober et al. 502/230=20
            4,105,755 Aug., 1978 Darnell et al. 423/648.R=20
            4,182,662 Jan., 1980 Hart 204/101=20
            4,235,863 Nov., 1980 Schulten et al. 423/648.R=20
            4,268,363 May, 1981 Coughlin 204/39=20
            4,279,710 Jul., 1981 Coughlin 204/101=20
            4,311,569 Jan., 1982 Dempsey et al. 204/130=20
            4,341,608 Jul., 1982 St. John 204/129=20
            4,389,288 Jun., 1983 Vaughan 204/101=20
            4,395,316 Jul., 1983 St. John 204/129=20
            4,412,893 Nov., 1983 Fray et al. 204/103.R=20
            4,457,824 Jul., 1984 Dempsey et al. 204/290.R=20
   =20

    Other References
    Dhooge et al., "Electrochemical Studies of Coal Slurry Oxidation =
Mechanisms, J. Electrochem. Soc., 129, No. 8, Aug. 1982, pp. 1719-1724.=20

    Dhooge et al., "Electrochemistry of Coal Slurries", J. Electrochem. =
Soc., 130, No. 5, May 1983, pp. 1029-1036.=20

    Dhooge et al., "Electrochemistry of Coal Slurries III", J. =
Electrochem. Soc., 130, 1539 (1983).=20


Primary Examiner: Andrews; R. L.
Attorney, Agent or Firm: Berman, Aisenberg & Platt

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Abstract

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

A catalyst/cocatalyst/organics composition of matter is useful in =
electrolytically producing hydrogen or electrowinning metals. Use of the =
catalyst/cocatalyst/organics composition causes the anode potential and =
the energy required for the reaction to decrease. An electrolyte, =
including the catalyst/cocatalyst composition, and a reaction medium =
composition further including organic material are also described.=20


19 Claims, 3 Drawing Figures


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

STATEMENT

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

This invention was made with the support of the State of New Mexico =
under Project No. 2-73-4633 awarded by the New Mexico Energy Research =
and Development Institute. New Mexico has reserved rights in this =
invention.=20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

[USPTO]=20

------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BDB1A5.220C6600
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>United States Patent =
4,699,700</TITLE><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4699700+F><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><A name=3Dtop></A>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/help/help.html"><IMG =
alt=3D[Help]=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/help.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/index.html"><IMG alt=3D[Home] =
border=3D0 height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/home.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-bool.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Boolean Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/boolean.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-adv.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D[Advanced] border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/advanced.gif" =
width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-num.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Number Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/number.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptcs/"><IMG =
alt=3D"[Order Copy]"=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/copy.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptdl/"><IMG alt=3D[PTDLs] border=3D0 =
height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/ptdl.gif" width=3D63></A> </CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> </CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>United States Patent </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>4,699,700</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>Dhooge</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>Oct. 13, =
1987</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>
<B>Method for hydrogen production and metal winning, and a =
catalyst/cocatalyst=20
composition useful therefor </B>
<TABLE>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Inventors: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Dhooge; Patrick M.</B> (Corrales, NM). =
</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Assignee: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Delphi Research, Inc.</B> (Albuquerque, NM). =
</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Appl. No.: </TD>
        <TD><B>864,411</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Filed: </TD>
        <TD><B>May 19, 1986</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Intl. Cl. : </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>C25B 1/02</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Current U.S. Cl.: </B><!--CCL =
Hit--></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>205/560</B>; 204/291; 204/294; =
205/638;=20
            502/224; 502/230; 502/304; 502/338</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Field of Search: =
</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>502</B>/224, 230, =
304, 338;=20
            <B>204</B>/129, 105 R, 130, 294, 291; =
<B>106</B>/1</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>References Cited | <A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ref_srch4?INDEX+0+4699700+F">[Re=
ferenced=20
By]</A></B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER>U.S. Patent Documents</CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D90%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>2,433,871</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jan., 1948</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Sutherland et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/129</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,884,952</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>May, 1975</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Kober et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>502</B>/230</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4105755+F">4,105,=
755</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Aug., 1978</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Darnell et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>423</B>/648.R</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4182662+F">4,182,=
662</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jan., 1980</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Hart</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/101</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4235863+F">4,235,=
863</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Nov., 1980</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Schulten et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>423</B>/648.R</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4268363+F">4,268,=
363</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>May, 1981</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Coughlin</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/39</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4279710+F">4,279,=
710</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jul., 1981</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Coughlin</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/101</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4311569+F">4,311,=
569</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jan., 1982</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Dempsey et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/130</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4341608+F">4,341,=
608</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jul., 1982</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>St. John</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/129</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4389288+F">4,389,=
288</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1983</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Vaughan</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/101</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4395316+F">4,395,=
316</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jul., 1983</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>St. John</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/129</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4412893+F">4,412,=
893</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Nov., 1983</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Fray et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/103.R</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4457824+F">4,457,=
824</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jul., 1984</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Dempsey et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright =
width=3D25%><B>204</B>/290.R</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<P>
<DL>
    <DD>
    <CENTER>Other References</CENTER>
    <DD>
    <P>Dhooge et al., &quot;Electrochemical Studies of Coal Slurry =
Oxidation=20
    Mechanisms, J. Electrochem. Soc., 129, No. 8, Aug. 1982, pp. =
1719-1724.=20
    <P>Dhooge et al., &quot;Electrochemistry of Coal Slurries&quot;, J.=20
    Electrochem. Soc., 130, No. 5, May 1983, pp. 1029-1036.=20
    <P>Dhooge et al., &quot;Electrochemistry of Coal Slurries III&quot;, =
J.=20
    Electrochem. Soc., 130, 1539 (1983). </P></DD></DL><BR><I>Primary =
Examiner:=20
</I>Andrews; R. L.<BR><I>Attorney, Agent or Firm: </I>Berman, Aisenberg =
&amp;=20
Platt<BR>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>Abstract</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<P>A catalyst/cocatalyst/organics composition of matter is useful in=20
electrolytically producing hydrogen or electrowinning metals. Use of the =

catalyst/cocatalyst/organics composition causes the anode potential and =
the=20
energy required for the reaction to decrease. An electrolyte, including =
the=20
catalyst/cocatalyst composition, and a reaction medium composition =
further=20
including organic material are also described.=20
<P>
<CENTER><B>19 Claims, </B><B>3 Drawing Figures</B></CENTER>
<P>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>STATEMENT</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<P>This invention was made with the support of the State of New Mexico =
under=20
Project No. 2-73-4633 awarded by the New Mexico Energy Research and =
Development=20
Institute. New Mexico has reserved rights in this invention.=20
<P>
<HR>

<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> =
</CENTER></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BDB1A5.220C6600--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 16:19:07 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA30872;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:10:48 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:10:48 -0700
Message-ID: <002701bdb1d7$9bc1db60$2f8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: United States Patent 4,925,540 (http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:04:08 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01BDB1A4.E9712060"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"uLmS43.0.CY7.tdzhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20684
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BDB1A4.E9712060
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=20

[USPTO]=20
United States Patent  4,925,540=20
            Dhooge May 15, 1990=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Method for treating organic waste material and an oxidation =
catalyst/cocatalyst composition useful therefor Inventors:  Dhooge; =
Patrick M. (Corrales, NM). =20
            Assignee:  Delphi Research Inc. (Albuquerque, NM). =20
            Appl. No.:  253,232=20
            Filed:  Oct. 4, 1988=20
Intl. Cl. :  B01J 19/10, C01B 31/20=20
            Current U.S. Cl.:  204/157.42; 204/157.47; 204/157.62; =
423/437.1=20
            Field of Search:  423/437; 204/157.92, 157.47, 157.62=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

References Cited | [Referenced By]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

U.S. Patent Documents
1,995,274 Mar., 1935 Eversole 423/437=20
            2,756,121 Jul., 1956 Grimes 423/437 X=20
            4,105,755 Aug., 1978 Darnell 204/128 X=20
            4,699,700 Oct., 1987 Dhooge 204/105.R=20
            4,752,364 Jun., 1988 Dhooge 204/102 X=20
   =20
Primary Examiner: Niebling; John F.
Assistant Examiner: Hsing; Ben C.
Attorney, Agent or Firm: Berman, Aisenberg & Platt



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Abstract

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

A catalyst/cocatalyst composition of matter is useful in oxidizing =
organic waste material to produce hydrogen. Use of the =
catalyst/cocatalyst composition causes the reaction rate to increase and =
causes the energy required for the reaction to decrease. A solution, =
including the catalyst/cocatalyst composition, and a reaction medium =
composition further including organic waste material are also described. =



20 Claims, 2 Drawing Figures

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

[USPTO]=20

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BDB1A4.E9712060
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>United States Patent =
4,925,540</TITLE><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4925540+F><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><A name=3Dtop></A>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/help/help.html"><IMG =
alt=3D[Help]=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/help.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/index.html"><IMG alt=3D[Home] =
border=3D0 height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/home.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-bool.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Boolean Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/boolean.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-adv.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D[Advanced] border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/advanced.gif" =
width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-num.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Number Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/number.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptcs/"><IMG =
alt=3D"[Order Copy]"=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/copy.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptdl/"><IMG alt=3D[PTDLs] border=3D0 =
height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/ptdl.gif" width=3D63></A> </CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> </CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>United States Patent </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>4,925,540</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>Dhooge</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>May 15, =
1990</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>
<B>Method for treating organic waste material and an oxidation=20
catalyst/cocatalyst composition useful therefor </B>
<TABLE>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Inventors: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Dhooge; Patrick M.</B> (Corrales, NM). =
</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Assignee: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Delphi Research Inc.</B> (Albuquerque, NM). =
</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Appl. No.: </TD>
        <TD><B>253,232</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Filed: </TD>
        <TD><B>Oct. 4, 1988</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Intl. Cl. : </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>B01J 19/10</B>, C01B =
31/20</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Current U.S. Cl.: </B><!--CCL =
Hit--></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>204/157.42</B>; 204/157.47; =
204/157.62;=20
            423/437.1</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Field of Search: =
</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>423</B>/437;=20
            <B>204</B>/157.92, 157.47, 157.62</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>References Cited | <A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ref_srch4?INDEX+0+4925540+F">[Re=
ferenced=20
By]</A></B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER>U.S. Patent Documents</CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D90%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>1,995,274</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Mar., 1935</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Eversole</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>423</B>/437</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>2,756,121</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jul., 1956</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Grimes</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>423</B>/437 <B>X</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4105755+F">4,105,=
755</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Aug., 1978</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Darnell</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/128 <B>X</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4699700+F">4,699,=
700</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Oct., 1987</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Dhooge</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/105.R</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4752364+F">4,752,=
364</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1988</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Dhooge</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/102=20
<B>X</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<P><I>Primary Examiner: </I>Niebling; John F.<BR><I>Assistant Examiner:=20
</I>Hsing; Ben C.<BR><I>Attorney, Agent or Firm: </I>Berman, Aisenberg =
&amp;=20
Platt<BR>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>Abstract</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<P>A catalyst/cocatalyst composition of matter is useful in oxidizing =
organic=20
waste material to produce hydrogen. Use of the catalyst/cocatalyst =
composition=20
causes the reaction rate to increase and causes the energy required for =
the=20
reaction to decrease. A solution, including the catalyst/cocatalyst =
composition,=20
and a reaction medium composition further including organic waste =
material are=20
also described.=20
<P>
<CENTER><B>20 Claims, </B><B>2 Drawing Figures</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> =
</CENTER></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BDB1A4.E9712060--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 16:20:03 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA30919;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:10:52 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:10:52 -0700
Message-ID: <002801bdb1d7$9d7de340$2f8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: United States Patent 4,752,364 (http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:04:52 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01BDB1A5.03896CA0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"3wp0i.0.wY7.xdzhr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20685
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BDB1A5.03896CA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=20

[USPTO]=20
United States Patent  4,752,364=20
            Dhooge Jun. 21, 1988=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Method for treating organic waste material and a catalyst/cocatalyst =
composition useful therefor Inventors:  Dhooge; Patrick M. (Corrales, =
NM). =20
            Assignee:  Delphi Research, Inc. (Albuquerque, NM). =20
            Appl. No.:  864,410=20
            Filed:  May 19, 1986=20
Intl. Cl. :  C25F 5/00, C25F 1/46=20
            Current U.S. Cl.:  205/688; 205/703; 205/746=20
            Field of Search:  204/130, 131-138, 149-152, 102; 210/763=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

References Cited | [Referenced By]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

U.S. Patent Documents
2,433,871 Feb., 1965 Sutherland et al. 204/131=20
            4,105,755 Aug., 1978 Darnell et al. 204/131=20
            4,182,662 Jan., 1980 Hart =20
            4,212,735 Jul., 1980 Miller 210/763=20
            4,222,826 Sept., 1980 Riggs et al. 204/130=20
            4,235,863 Nov., 1980 Schulten et al. =20
            4,268,303 May, 1981 Coughlin 204/39=20
            4,269,678 May, 1981 Faul et al. 204/130=20
            4,274,926 Jun., 1981 Simon et al. 204/39=20
            4,279,710 Jul., 1981 Coughlin 204/101=20
            4,311,569 Jan., 1982 Dempsey et al. =20
            4,341,608 Jul., 1982 St. John =20
            4,389,288 Jun., 1983 Vaughan 204/129=20
            4,395,316 Jul., 1983 St. John =20
            4,412,893 Nov., 1983 Fray et al. 204/129=20
            4,457,824 Jul., 1984 Dempsey et al. =20
   =20

    Other References
    Hackh's Chemical Dictionary, Fourth Ed.=20

    Dhooge et al. "Electrochemical Studies of Coal Slurry Oxidation =
Mechanisms, J. Electrochem. Soc., 129, No. 8., Aug. 1982, pp. 1719-1724. =


    Dhooge et al. "Electrochemistry of Coal Slurries", J. Electrochem. =
Soc., 130, No. 5., May 1983, pp. 1029-1036.=20

    Dhooge et al. "Electrochemistry of Coal Slurries III", J. =
Electrochem. Soc., 130, 1539 (1983).=20


Primary Examiner: Andrews; R. L.
Attorney, Agent or Firm: Berman, Aisenberg & Platt

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Abstract

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

A catalyst/cocatalyst composition of matter is useful in =
electrolytically treating organic waste material. Use of the =
catalyst/cocatalyst composition causes the reaction rate to increase, =
and causes the anode potential and the energy required for the reaction =
to decrease. An electrolyte, including the catalyst/cocatalyst =
composition, and a reaction medium composition further including organic =
waste material are also described.=20


22 Claims, 3 Drawing Figures

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

[USPTO]=20

------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BDB1A5.03896CA0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>United States Patent =
4,752,364</TITLE><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4752364+F><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><A name=3Dtop></A>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/help/help.html"><IMG =
alt=3D[Help]=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/help.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/index.html"><IMG alt=3D[Home] =
border=3D0 height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/home.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-bool.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Boolean Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/boolean.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-adv.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D[Advanced] border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/advanced.gif" =
width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-num.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Number Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/number.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptcs/"><IMG =
alt=3D"[Order Copy]"=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/copy.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptdl/"><IMG alt=3D[PTDLs] border=3D0 =
height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/ptdl.gif" width=3D63></A> </CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> </CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>United States Patent </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>4,752,364</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>Dhooge</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>Jun. 21, =
1988</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>
<B>Method for treating organic waste material and a catalyst/cocatalyst=20
composition useful therefor </B>
<TABLE>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Inventors: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Dhooge; Patrick M.</B> (Corrales, NM). =
</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Assignee: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Delphi Research, Inc.</B> (Albuquerque, NM). =
</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Appl. No.: </TD>
        <TD><B>864,410</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Filed: </TD>
        <TD><B>May 19, 1986</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Intl. Cl. : </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>C25F 5/00</B>, C25F =
1/46</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Current U.S. Cl.: </B><!--CCL =
Hit--></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>205/688</B>; 205/703; =
205/746</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Field of Search: =
</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>204</B>/130, =
131-138,=20
            149-152, 102; <B>210</B>/763</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>References Cited | <A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ref_srch4?INDEX+0+4752364+F">[Re=
ferenced=20
By]</A></B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER>U.S. Patent Documents</CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D90%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>2,433,871</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Feb., 1965</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Sutherland et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/131</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4105755+F">4,105,=
755</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Aug., 1978</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Darnell et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/131</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4182662+F">4,182,=
662</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jan., 1980</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Hart</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4212735+F">4,212,=
735</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jul., 1980</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Miller</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>210</B>/763</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4222826+F">4,222,=
826</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Sept., 1980</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Riggs et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/130</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4235863+F">4,235,=
863</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Nov., 1980</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Schulten et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4268303+F">4,268,=
303</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>May, 1981</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Coughlin</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/39</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4269678+F">4,269,=
678</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>May, 1981</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Faul et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/130</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4274926+F">4,274,=
926</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1981</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Simon et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/39</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4279710+F">4,279,=
710</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jul., 1981</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Coughlin</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/101</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4311569+F">4,311,=
569</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jan., 1982</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Dempsey et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4341608+F">4,341,=
608</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jul., 1982</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>St. John</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4389288+F">4,389,=
288</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1983</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Vaughan</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/129</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4395316+F">4,395,=
316</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jul., 1983</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>St. John</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4412893+F">4,412,=
893</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Nov., 1983</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Fray et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>204</B>/129</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4457824+F">4,457,=
824</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jul., 1984</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Dempsey et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright =
width=3D25%></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<P>
<DL>
    <DD>
    <CENTER>Other References</CENTER>
    <DD>
    <P>Hackh's Chemical Dictionary, Fourth Ed.=20
    <P>Dhooge et al. &quot;Electrochemical Studies of Coal Slurry =
Oxidation=20
    Mechanisms, J. Electrochem. Soc., 129, No. 8., Aug. 1982, pp. =
1719-1724.=20
    <P>Dhooge et al. &quot;Electrochemistry of Coal Slurries&quot;, J.=20
    Electrochem. Soc., 130, No. 5., May 1983, pp. 1029-1036.=20
    <P>Dhooge et al. &quot;Electrochemistry of Coal Slurries III&quot;, =
J.=20
    Electrochem. Soc., 130, 1539 (1983). </P></DD></DL><BR><I>Primary =
Examiner:=20
</I>Andrews; R. L.<BR><I>Attorney, Agent or Firm: </I>Berman, Aisenberg =
&amp;=20
Platt<BR>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>Abstract</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<P>A catalyst/cocatalyst composition of matter is useful in =
electrolytically=20
treating organic waste material. Use of the catalyst/cocatalyst =
composition=20
causes the reaction rate to increase, and causes the anode potential and =
the=20
energy required for the reaction to decrease. An electrolyte, including =
the=20
catalyst/cocatalyst composition, and a reaction medium composition =
further=20
including organic waste material are also described.=20
<P>
<CENTER><B>22 Claims, </B><B>3 Drawing Figures</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> =
</CENTER></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BDB1A5.03896CA0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 17:29:36 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19671;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:24:41 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:24:41 -0700
Message-ID: <005d01bdb1e1$f0e77320$2f8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: CNN - World use of solar power reportedly growing fast - July 17, 1998 (http://
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:20:34 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0031_01BDB1AF.96E93160"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"r3kuV3.0.8p4.8j-hr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20688
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BDB1AF.96E93160
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Looking up for Solar Power. Cost effective O-U.

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/science/9807/17/solar.power.reut/

------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BDB1AF.96E93160
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="CNN - World use of solar power reportedly growing fast - July 17, 1998.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="CNN - World use of solar power reportedly growing fast - July 17, 1998.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.cnn.com/TECH/science/9807/17/solar.power.reut/
Modified=207893AEE1B1BD0129

------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BDB1AF.96E93160--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 18:57:58 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02054;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:52:26 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:52:26 -0700
Message-ID: <35AFF284.5BA9 earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:55:32 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
CC: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Chubb: unpublished theory paper on WWW site  7.17.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"wDZTP1.0.0W.P__hr" mx1>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20689
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Subject: Unpublished theory paper on WWW page 
  Date:  Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:05:25 -0400
  From:  chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil
    To:  rmforall earthlink.net
    CC:  chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil

Concerning: WEB Page and Unpublished Paper

Rich,

     I would appreciate your distributing this message.

     I have set up a new (albeit crude) WEB page.  The address is

http://www.angelfire.com/va/schubb

     The page includes an on-line version of a new paper by us that has
not been previously published.  This paper provides a nice introductory
discussion of our theory and of the motivation for on-going experimental
tests of the theory that have recently been initiated.  In the future, 
we will probably make our ICCF5, ICCF6 and ICCF7 available on-line.

SCOTT CHUBB
Dr. Scott R. Chubb
Code 7252
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington, D.C. 20375-5351

PHONE: 202-767-5270, FAX: 202-767-3303
EMAIL: chubb ccf.nrl.navy.mil, chubb@neptune.nrl.navy.mil

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 19:05:03 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02939;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:56:05 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:56:05 -0700
Message-ID: <35AFF357.2D80 earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:59:03 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, sethnet@efn.org
Subject: Stearns, Jr:  Consciousness and CF 7.17.98
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"RjvXO2.0.rj.q20ir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20690
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!la-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.wli.net!news.he.net!news2.randori.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion,alt.consciousness
From: hoyt isus.UUCP (Hoyt A. Stearns jr.)
Subject: Re: Consciousness and CF
Message-ID: <1998Jul17.053453.3859 isus.UUCP>
Followup-To: sci.physics.fusion
Summary: Expectation and Manifestation
Keywords: Consciousness, Reality Creation
Sender: hoyt isus.wierius.com
Organization: International Society of Unified Science
References: <6oesqe$iqg news-central.tiac.net> <1998Jul15.044525.27163@isus.UUCP> <6ohp8i$gro$4@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:24:07 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.181.55.208
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 01:24:07 PDT
Xref: nntp.earthlink.net sci.physics.fusion:22493 alt.consciousness:44034

In article <6ohp8i$gro$4 cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> correct address in .sigfile writes:
>Hoyt A. Stearns jr. (hoyt isus.wierius.com) wrote:
>
>: Fusion experiments will yield results according to the expectations of
>: the experimenters, without exception.  In the interests of multi-user
>: games, however, there will be some agreements, again usually made
>: subconsciously, about the rules of the game.
>
>Richard Schultz  wrote 

>So then why aren't there any CF water heaters that work at least in the 
>homes of True Believers?  Pons claimed to have had a prototype of one
>of them nearly a decade ago.
>

First of all "True Believer" is a loaded phrase. The kinds of 
beliefs that would allow that are not often present
no matter what one professes.

Your question is an interesting and profound one the answer to which I
haven't really fathomed.  From Roberts "The Nature of Personal
Reality" and "The Unknown Reality" and other sources,

I think the short answer is that there are CF products but you just
don't have access to that information because it's not part of your
expectation,  i.e. they're just not in your holodeck, but are in others.

The impression I have is that the universe has an astounding ability to
maintain consistency using paths of least resistance.  It can and does
"edit the past" if necessary, and will fork off consistent subset
realities if it has to, but usually doesn't have to.

If for some reason you choose to interact with someone who has a fusion
water heater and perhaps has had one for a long time, an enormous amount
of activity will ensue in the background to reconcile that, but it will
all happen instantaneously from your perspective and you normally won't
perceive any kind of discontinuity.  Apparently, with proper training,
one can learn to spot such discontinuities.  Deja Vue is one of the
signs.   Ironically, once it is your expectation to find anomalies,
they're everywhere. 

I also get the impression that when the universe "solves problems"
it does so in the manner of "quantum computers" by simply trying
all possible solutions simultaneously, then "collapsing the wave function"
to the simplest solution.

P.S.

I'm finding (because it's my expectation :-) ) the images from Mars
Pathfinder illustrate some of the above.  Mars was self consistent but
disconnected from us, and evolved along very different lines. Suddenly
Pathfinder landed and started to force reconciliation.  Those images are
truly bizarre to me, when I look at the fine details there are many
things that just "don't compute", such as physically (to us)
non-realizable objects, rocks that move or change shape from one image
to the next, "pipelines" made up of physically non-contiguous sections
that nonetheless span arroyos, and many other kinds of nonsense
constructs.  There are lots of bizarre animals in a place where they
can't breath or eat! (see http://www.netside.net/~tbeech)
I've spotted hundreds of them.  I haven't spotted any CF power plants
or water heaters, but there's plenty of machinery.  They use(d)
right hand threaded screws from a sample of one :-) .

Since many people don't expect to see these things, they don't.

*****************************************************************

         "I leaned against reality and it gave."
                Jane Roberts
*****************************************************************

                              Albert Einstein:
        Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
*****************************************************************
 
"We are taught to conform, and nowhere more so than in interpretation 
of reality. As we grow up, we learn to ignore certain aspects of 
reality that are considered rediculous or hallucinatory by adults 
around us. We learn to see geometric forms. We reach a consensus 
about the existence of the three dimensions. We come to agreements 
about what the world should look like. There is no objective reality, 
and we do not just observe the physical world. We participate with 
it. Our senses are not separate from what is 'out there', but we are 
involved in a complex physiological process of actually creating what 
is out there."                  --Lyall Watson
 
 
*****************************************************************

Just as the introduction of the irrational numbers ... is a convenient
myth [which] simplifies the laws of arithmetic ... so physical objects
are postulated entities which round out and simplify our account of the
flux of existence... The conceptional scheme of physical objects is
[likewise] a convenient myth, simpler than the literal truth and yet
containing that literal truth as a scattered part.

Quine, Willard Van Orman 
In J. Koenderink Solid Shape, Cambridge Mass.: MIT Press, 1990. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 

"We experience what we believe.  If we don't believe that we experience 
   what we believe, then we don't, which still means the first statement is 
   true." --Harry Palmer
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 


Best Regards,
--

-- 
Hoyt A. Stearns jr.,  President,     International Society of Unified Science|
4131 E. Cannon Dr. Phoenix Arizona 85028          Dewey B. Larson's Recip-   |
hoyt isus.wierius.com fax 996 9088  procal System- a unified physical theory |
voice *82 602 996-1717  http://www.randomc.com/~rs/ISUS/Incorporation.shtml  |

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 19:07:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA04786;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:02:58 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:02:58 -0700
Message-ID: <006e01bdb1e9$fa5df5c0$2f8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: "Aqua Fuel" and other Water Oxidation-Hydrolysis Reactions.
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:17:50 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"YdV4p2.0.hA1.H90ir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20691
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Using water or steam to oxidize carbonaceous
materials is at the heart of Biomass thermochemical or electrochemical
conversion:

CxHyOz + xH2O ---> xCO + H2  etc., in biomass
yields products that can be further oxidized
using atmospheric O2, thus completing the
Solar-Powered Carbon Cycle.

The exothermic decomposition of cellulistic
biomass is seen in fighting fires in lumber
construction where the partition studs exotherm
at about 500 F giving off H2, CO, and other
hydrocarbons.

Dr. Pat Dhooge (an acquaintance)has been getting "over-unity" reactions in
electrochemical,water oxidation reactions
for decades. No "Free Energy" except that which
was put there by photosynthesis. The oxidizable organic materials in urine
are NO EXCEPTION.

The H2O + C ---> CO + H2, CH4 etc., reactions in the "Aqua Fuel" taking into
account dissolved Oxygen from the surrounding air reacting with these,there
is no mysterious
O-U energy involved.

With an open CF cell where the oxygen can get
to the Hydrogen-loaded Pd cathode, this is probably the Source of "Heat
After Death".

Regards,    Frederick





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 19:10:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA07025;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:09:40 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:09:40 -0700
Message-ID: <35AFED41.72F4 earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:33:06 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, sethnet@efn.org
Subject: Stearns, Jr.: beliefs make reality  7.16.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"YVyiJ1.0.cj1.ZF0ir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20692
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

June 16, 1998

Newsgroups:
sci.physics.fusion,alt.consciousness,sci.psychology.consciousness
Subject: Re: Consciousness and CF
From: Hoyt Stearns<hoyt isus.wierius.com>
Reply-To: hoyt isus.wierius.com
Return-Path: hoyt isus.wierius.com
Sender: hoyt isus.wierius.com
Errors-To: harvs!isus!hoyt netzone.com
Originator: hoyt isus.wierius.com
Transport-Options: /delivery

Summary: Metaphysics and Cold Fusion
References: <35A5A00F.7279 earthlink.net>
<1998071404225300.AAA07312 ladder01.news.aol.com>
<6oesqe$iqg news-central.tiac.net>
Sender: hoyt isus.wierius.com
Followup-To: sci.physics.fusion
Distribution: world
Organization: International Society of Unified Science
Keywords: Consciousness in Science

In article <6oesqe$iqg news-central.tiac.net> conover@tiac.net (Harry H
Conover) writes:
>Hoyt 77 (hoyt77 aol.com) wrote:
>: Thanks for a very thoughtful message on CF.  Again, I would like to posit a
>: question on a very controversial proposition, i.e., that  the mental state
>: (consciousness or strong belief on the part of the experimenter has an effect
>: on the outcome). 
>: cf Princeton PEAR experiments   any thoughts? Regards        
>
>When do you believe double blind experiments are mandated?
>
>Clue enough?
>

Hello,

I'm not the hoyt (hoyt77 aol.com) you're responding to, he's my father,
but I'll jump in anyway.

The "Nature of Personal Reality" is such that there can be no such thing
as a blind or double blind experiment!  The participants can agree to
simulate one if they desire, subconsciously usually.

All information is available to all all the time. it's part of the
nature of the universe. There is no kind of computer-like "file
protection" on any of it.  Any limitations to access is self imposed
(for the sake of the "game"--what fun is a game if one knows all about
the opponent and his state vector?).

The bottom line is "we each get our own private holodeck", with data
sharing only by agreement.  This information is, as startling as it is
to some, demonstrated so conclusively as to leave no doubt, and is one
of the few very fundamental laws.

(Each person also has complete control of the program at any time,
including creating chaos if desired.)

Fusion experiments will yield results according to the expectations of
the experimenters, without exception.  In the interests of multi-user
games, however, there will be some agreements, again usually made
subconsciously, about the rules of the game.

If two camps disagree about the rules of the game, there will be a
bifurcation in reality (Everett-Wheeler like, which can rejoin the main
path later in some cases).  Interestingly, there are some psychological
exercises which allow access to the other forked off realities.

It's all software, anything goes.  Those interested can find numerous
experiments to prove it.  For those whom that information is not part of
their game, they will encounter no evidence.

The main "mass consciousness" game is, however, breaking down somewhat
due to many factors I don't have time to get into now, but primarily
caused by mass media and Internet, and the universe's basic mechanism of
linking all related data together in a massive database of active
objects that can never unlink once a link is formed, or be deleted
(ultimately, that's all there is).

This is in no way a problem, in fact its quite mind expanding.  It's
just the rules of the game are changing rather quickly now.

Trying to fit the results of these experiments into scientific paradigms
such as quantum mechanics is very misguided. It's like trying to have a
particular computer simulation analyze the computer it's running on,
which is,  in general, not possible.

Data abounds about this subject on Internet.  One particularly startling
site is the "Retro Psychokinesis" project web page where backward
causality is shown to exist.  In other words, our "simulation time" is
not the time of the universe.

Remember the experiment where a floppy disk was recorded with uniform
random numbers from an atomic source, locked in a safe, then the
participants were asked to bias the data?  It was in fact biased upon
examination.  I've noticed If that kind of result is not part of one's
game, he'll feel uncomfortable about that and usually try to disparage
the experiment.

If something is not to our liking, the past can be edited as easily as
the future.  (This can be conceptualized as stopping the simulation,
editing the state vector, and restarting from that point).

--      
Hoyt A. Stearns jr.,  President,     International Society of Unified
Science|
4131 E. Cannon Dr. Phoenix Arizona 85028          Dewey B. Larson's
Recip-   |
hoyt isus.wierius.com fax 996 9088  procal System- a unified physical
theory |
voice *82 602 996-1717 
http://www.randomc.com/~rs/ISUS/Incorporation.shtml  |

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 19:25:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10893;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:24:17 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:24:17 -0700
From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
Message-Id: <v03007811b1d5b69c4009 [198.133.146.230]>
In-Reply-To: <35B0CE1C.C6BD6EDE ihug.co.nz>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980714102104.121C-100000 iesun9>
 <v0300780cb1d524cefe65 [198.133.146.230]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:21:09 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: How 'FREE-ENERGY' is implicated in CONVENTIONAL 	
 ELECTRODYNAMICS!!!!! Re: the Minato, John Berry's mesg.
Resent-Message-ID: <"zF0Bt1.0.6g2.HT0ir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20693
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>> 3. In the context of the John's ideas and the discussion it has generated,
>> the main new phemonenon is electromagnetic radiation. The charges are
>> jerked around by each other's fields, and the resulting randomlike
>> accelerations produce EM radiation. Radiation produced by this mechanism is
>> called plasma bremsstrahlung. It is closely related to classical
>> bremsstrahlung, which is radiated by the wiggles of an energetic electron
>> subject passing through a solid material and subject to the EM fields of
>> its constituent atoms.
>
>Well it is still free "bremsstrahlung" in my view ;-)

Not free. The radiated energy comes at the expense of reduced electron
energy, that is, the plasma cools. You have to keep heating the plasma (or
whatever name you want to call your collection of electrons).

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 19:41:41 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA26871;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:36:53 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:36:53 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <01BDB1C9.9D5247C0.stk sunherald.infi.net>
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: A possible PRF?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:26:51 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"tv9W52.0.kZ6.4f0ir" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20694
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



-----Original Message-----
From:	Kyle R. Mcallister [SMTP:stk sunherald.infi.net]
Sent:	Thursday, July 16, 1998 5:41 PM
To:	'vortex-l eskimo.com'
Subject:	ZPF: A possible PRF?

<snip>
>A theory just as tenable as STR, but more complicated. However, if we can
>combine this theory with the quantum mechanical results showing definite
>superluminal effects, and assume that this ether causes relativistic
>effects, and perhaps even inertia itself, we can classify it under one
>name: the Zero-Point Field. The relativistic effects, as well as a causal
>explanation of superluminal velocities can be shown, unlike STR, to have a 
>true material cause. The question is, how do we test this?

No reply? It seems there is very little interest in such a theory. Curious, 
I have heard 'ether' discussed on this list countless times. This is highly 
unusual, especially the fact that I have posted before to a few other 
discussion groups, each time with no reply. Perhaps I should explain what I 
was saying better:

Superluminality: Confirmed in the lab, but SR forces this to violate 
causality. Lorentz-Poincare ether theory accepts it a causal, but is more 
complex than SR.

Now, for a logical explanation of superluminal effects, we must have some 
type of absolute reference frame that preserves causality. This would 
theoretically fill all of space, and cause length contraction and time 
dilation as proposed by Lorentz in the early 1900's. Next question: does 
there exist a medium that fills all of space? Yes, the zero-point-field. 
Now, if the 'ether' and the ZPF can be combined somehow into one theory, an 
outside observer would measure all physical laws to be the same, including 
C, as would an observer moving at relativistic velocity, and causality 
would be preserved for superluminal entities. To me, this seems to be much 
simpler than Lorentz-Poincare ether theory and a theory of gravity 
separated from one another. Perhaps this becomes a type of "Zero-Point 
Relativity"? Perhaps the difference in accelerated frames and constant 
speed frames has to do with an interaction with the ZPF.

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 21:28:53 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06081;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:17:57 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:17:57 -0700
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Carbonic Acid Catalysis of CO and H2O to Formic Acid?
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 04:18:11 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35b021a9.90448557 mail-hub>
References: <000101bdb150$3c98f880$328f85ce default>
In-Reply-To: <000101bdb150$3c98f880$328f85ce default>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"sm0JN1.0.vU1.q72ir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20695
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:57:53 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

>To: Vortex
>
>Check me out on this one, Robin.
>
>Under ordinary circumstances CO does not react
>with water: CO + H2O ---> H-CO-OH.
>
>However, in the presence of CO2 and H2O, Carbonic Acid H2CO3 <---> 2 H+ +
>CO3= or H+ + HCO3- is formed which, in effect catalyzes the reaction of CO
>with H2O to form the Formic Acid H-CO-OH.
[snip]
Not sure how you see this catalysis working Frederick (or is it a
standard reaction, of which I am simply ignorant)?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 22:14:46 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11854;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:10:10 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:10:10 -0700
Message-ID: <009801bdb209$ccd36de0$2f8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Perpetual Heat Thermochemical Reaction, ALMOST?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:06:13 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"6KEqu.0.8v2.ou2ir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20696
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Try this one, Robin.

1, CO2 (from air) + 2 PdH ---> CO + H2O + Pd

2, CO + H2O ---> CO2 + H2 (The Standard Shift Reaction)
3, CO2 + H2 ---> CO + H2O

4, CO + H2O ---> CO2 + H2 

And so on especially with Hydrogen outgassing
from the Pd.

How long will this go on in a CF Cell to
cause "HEAT AFTER DEATH"?  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 22:19:54 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12583;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:13:12 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:13:12 -0700
Message-ID: <35B02165.5471 earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:15:33 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: little eden.con, puthoff@aol.com, Vortex-L@eskimo.com
Subject: Murray: C nanotubes for Casimer shift?  7.17.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"T7Gt6.0.T43.dx2ir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20697
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July 17, 1998

Hello Scott and Hal,   A month ago in Science, a team described
ballistic electron flow, without resistance, in carbon nanotubes, I
recall being 15 by 3000 nanometers, at 10E7 A/cm2, about a hundred times
greater current density than for superconducting wires.  What if 1 cc of
these nanotubes were pressurized in H2, so that they filled up?  Would
the Casimer effect from the conductive carbon nanotube shift the ground
state of the H2, and could this be measured by NMR?  Would photons from
the first few energy levels penetrate the nanotubes?  What frequencies
are the nanotubes transparent to?

Other gases could of course be used, and even liquids, if the nanotubes
would take them up.

Regards, Rich Murray
Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103
rmforall earthlink.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 17 22:23:37 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA15378;
	Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:17:55 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:17:55 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <009701bdb209$cb9dad00$2f8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Carbonic Acid Catalysis of CO and H2O to Formic Acid?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:57:56 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"-HugC.0.Bm3.103ir" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20698
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Friday, July 17, 1998 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: Carbonic Acid Catalysis of CO and H2O to Formic Acid?


>On Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:57:53 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>
>>To: Vortex
>>
>>Check me out on this one, Robin.
>>
>>Under ordinary circumstances CO does not react
>>with water: CO + H2O ---> H-CO-OH.
>>
>>However, in the presence of CO2 and H2O, Carbonic Acid H2CO3 <---> 2 H+ +
>>CO3= or H+ + HCO3- is formed which, in effect catalyzes the reaction of CO
>>with H2O to form the Formic Acid H-CO-OH.
>[snip]
>Not sure how you see this catalysis working Frederick (or is it a
>standard reaction, of which I am simply ignorant)?

"Standard Reaction", Robin,
See Patent #4,564,516 (Jan 14, 1986) I've worked with Doug Elliott and John
Sealock at PNL for over 15 years. The Ammonia forms the
Ammonium Carbonate in water solution and effectively catalyzes the Shift
Reaction:
CO + H2O ---> CO2 + H2, possibly with the Formic Acid intermediate in
alkaline solution.

Regards,    Frederick
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 18 04:01:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA12017;
	Sat, 18 Jul 1998 04:00:01 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 04:00:01 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35B07E78.BFF38DA2 ro.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 05:52:40 -0500
From: "Patrick V. Reavis" <preavis ro.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Transmutation.com
References: <001a01bdb0fb$16d85c80$504c08c3 default>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------87228A15B973ED36E42AD425"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Ica2j3.0.hx2.l08ir" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20699
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


--------------87228A15B973ED36E42AD425
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi vortexians!
Can anyone help Mark in his quest for transmutation knowledge?  Please
send any info that you can; his address is below.  Thanks!

  ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>  Mark R AINSWORTH wrote:
>
>>  Hello,I located your homepage whilst searching for Joe Champion's
>> transmutation.com(not currently accessible through normal
>> pathways)and I was wondering if you might be able to help.  If you
>> have any suggestions or links to circumvent this "road block",I
>> would appreciate the assistance. Cheers,M.A.
>
> Thank you for the kind offer Patrick,I would be delighted to speak to
> others who may be interested in this information.I have perused
> eskimo.com before and found lots of info pertaining to my other
> interests(ie free-energy,spiritual unity etc).  Feel free to e-mail me
> any time you like.It is people like ourselves,who will have to clean
> up the mess of past events(and their perpetrayers)before we can truly
> start to live as we should.  All the best with your future
> endeavours.   Shalom,  Mark.
> To: Mark R AINSWORTH <ainvision clara.net>
> Date: 16 July 1998 20:58
> Subject: Re: Transmutation.com
>
>
>
>      Mark R AINSWORTH wrote:
>
>     >  Thanks for help Patrick,if you know of any persons who
>     > may have downloaded Joe Champion's transmutational
>     > processes,I would be interested in their results.A copy of
>     > any relevant documents would be helpful also.I too,have a
>     > formula for transmutation of gold from silver,so I am
>     > willing to trade information.Through years of Alchemical
>     > and Qabalistic study I have managed to "aquire" this
>     > knowledge.I believe it is something that all interested
>     > persons should know.Please e-mail me with any relevant
>     > data. Cheers,Mark.
>
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis


--------------87228A15B973ED36E42AD425
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
Hi vortexians!
<BR>Can anyone help Mark in his quest for transmutation knowledge?&nbsp;
Please send any info that you can; his address is below.&nbsp; Thanks!

<P>
<HR WIDTH="100%">
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;Mark R AINSWORTH wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE = CITE>&nbsp;<FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>Hello,I
located your homepage whilst searching for Joe Champion's transmutation.com(not
currently accessible through normal pathways)and I was wondering if you
might be able to help.&nbsp; If you have any suggestions or links to circumvent
this "road block",I would appreciate the assistance.</FONT></FONT> <FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>Cheers,M.A.</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>Thank you for the kind offer Patrick,I
would be delighted to speak to others who may be interested in this information.I
have perused eskimo.com before and found lots of info pertaining to my
other interests(ie free-energy,spiritual unity etc).</FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=-1>&nbsp;
Feel free to e-mail me any time you like.It is people like ourselves,who
will have to clean up the mess of past events(and their perpetrayers)before
we can truly start to live as we should.</FONT><FONT SIZE=-1>&nbsp; All
the best with your future endeavours.</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>&nbsp;
Shalom,</FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=-1>&nbsp; Mark.</FONT><FONT SIZE=-1>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1><B>To: </B>Mark R AINSWORTH &lt;<A HREF="mailto:ainvision clara.net">ainvision@clara.net</A>></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1><B>Date: </B>16 July 1998 20:58</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT SIZE=-1><B>Subject: </B>Re: Transmutation.com</FONT></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;

<P>Mark R AINSWORTH wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE = CITE>&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=-1><FONT COLOR="#000000">Thanks
for help Patrick,if you know of any persons who may have downloaded Joe
Champion's transmutational processes,I would be interested in their results.A
copy of any relevant documents would be helpful also.</FONT>I too,have
a formula for transmutation of gold from silver,so I am willing to trade
information.Through years of Alchemical and Qabalistic study I have managed
to "aquire" this knowledge.I believe it is something that all interested
persons should know.Please e-mail me with any relevant data.</FONT> <FONT SIZE=-1>Cheers,Mark.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>


<P>Regards,
<BR>Patrick V. Reavis
<BR>&nbsp;
</BODY>
</HTML>

--------------87228A15B973ED36E42AD425--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 18 06:09:06 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22270;
	Sat, 18 Jul 1998 06:08:00 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 06:08:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Perpetual Heat Thermochemical Reaction, ALMOST?
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:00:30 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35b29b81.121649532 mail-hub>
References: <009801bdb209$ccd36de0$2f8f85ce default>
In-Reply-To: <009801bdb209$ccd36de0$2f8f85ce default>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"DZDYc3.0.uR5.ku9ir" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20700
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:06:13 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

>Try this one, Robin.
>
>1, CO2 (from air) + 2 PdH ---> CO + H2O + Pd
>
>2, CO + H2O ---> CO2 + H2 (The Standard Shift Reaction)

Adding 1 + 2 yields:

2 PdH ----> Pd + H2  (but this happens during out gassing anyway)

>3, CO2 + H2 ---> CO + H2O
>
>4, CO + H2O ---> CO2 + H2 

Adding 3 + 4 ---> nothing left over.

IOW total energy release will just be what would normally be obtained
without the involvement of the CO2. Methinks Occam's razor strikes
again.

>
>And so on especially with Hydrogen outgassing
>from the Pd.
>
>How long will this go on in a CF Cell to
>cause "HEAT AFTER DEATH"?  :-)
>
>Regards,    Frederick

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 18 06:59:17 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19409;
	Sat, 18 Jul 1998 06:58:08 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 06:58:08 -0700
Message-Id: <199807181354.JAA04276 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Bye, Bye Big Bang.....Hello, ZPE etc!
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 98 10:02:40 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"_sx3D.0.Bl4.mdAir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20701
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Vortexians...

So, there is something new under and beyond the Sun ....


Gene Mallove



>From Science-Week, July 17:


COSMOLOGY: THE END OF THE OLD MODEL UNIVERSE
Cosmologists are apparently expecting the near-future necessity
for profound conceptual alterations in their field. Peter Coles
(University of London, UK) presents a short review of the current
situation and makes the following points: 1) Observations only
recently made possible by improvements in astronomical
instrumentation have put theoretical models of the Universe under
intense pressure. The standard ideas of the 1980s about the shape
and history of the Universe have now been abandoned -- and
cosmologists are now taking seriously the possibility that the
Universe is pervaded by some sort of "vacuum energy" whose origin
is not at all understood. 2) The weakness of the Big Bang model
is that the numerical values of certain essential parameters in
the model (the Hubble constant, the density parameter, and, in
some versions, the cosmological constant) are not predicted by
theory, and thus the parameters must be inferred from
observations. 3) The Big Bang model does not deserve to be called
a "theory" unless and until it can explain how nonuniformities of
galaxies and clusters of galaxies came into being and evolved. 4)
The Cold Dark Matter model of structure formation, first proposed
in the 1980s, is in serious difficulty because the consequent
significant gravitational break on expansion is not evident, and
in fact expansion may be accelerating. Current observations
coupled with current dynamical arguments all suggest a global
density of matter in the Universe less than the value required to
make the Universe recollapse. 5) The existence of a cosmological
constant (or vacuum energy) of the required size necessary to
make the basic cosmological models work is not at all explained
by current theories of the fundamental interactions of matter. 6)
There is every reason to be confident that the important issues
will soon be resolved, because a data explosion is about to
engulf cosmology, a new generation of galaxy surveys. The Sloan
Digital Sky Survey, for example, will encompass more than a
million galaxies. The cosmological community is bracing itself
for the arrival of these enormous new data sets and the new
insights they will surely bring. 7) It is possible that none of
the available models will fit all the new data. Coles concludes:
"For many of us, that is the most exciting possibility of all, as
we would have to move to stranger theories, perhaps not even
based on General Relativity."
QY: Peter Coles <p.coles qmw.ac.uk>
(Nature 25 Jun 98 393:741) (Science-Week 17 Jul 98)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 18 07:07:22 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA28014;
	Sat, 18 Jul 1998 07:05:58 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 07:05:58 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199807181354.JAA04272 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: New Info on Mizuno-Ohmori Experiment
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 98 10:02:39 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"nXSRx.0.br6.2lAir" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20702
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Vortexians.

I talked yesterday with chemist John Thompson of the Bahamas, who is 
intensively investigating the Ohmori-MIzuno experiment (mostly testing 
various materials, before he charges off to do calorimetry). He described 
a very unusual effect which occurred three (3) times with a heavier 
tungsten metal foil. This foil was about 1 cm x 1 cm square and 0.25 mm 
thick. He said that he got it to melt completely underwater and it formed 
a molten incandescent ball. He does not know exactly why the foils melted 
these times and not at others. He started with a slightly cooler solution 
temp ( about 78C -- normally he cranked  up the voltage from a higher 
figure: 80- 85 C)  Said glowing ball persisted about 1 second (he 
estimated). The ball dropped to the floor of the Pyrex beaker where it 
melted the Pyrex glass. On the third time this happened, the beaker 
cracked. The melted craters left by the molten tungsten ball were visible 
in the remains of the beaker. 

Food for thought! OK you back of the envelope people, go to it....

1.  How much energy is required to melt that valued of W?
2. How long would one expect a molten sphere of W of that volume (all the 
above tungsten from the foil) to release energy to a potassium carbonate 
solution of 0.5 molar, before being quenched by the  heat loss due to 
radiation, convection, and conduction? 
3. How much energy transfer to melt a small crater in Pyrex while molten 
ball is underwater?

Suggested experiment: Drop a molten lead ball of the same size into the 
solution, compare how long its light lasts. 

Thompson is going to video tape this and do timing -- if he can repeat 
the effect.

Best, Gene Mallove 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 18 10:56:18 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14814;
	Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:53:24 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:53:24 -0700
Message-ID: <35B0DEDB.5D29 skylink.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:43:55 -0700
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
References: <v03007805b1d00c5f85a7 [198.133.146.230]>
	 <v03007807b1d131a46cb7 [198.133.146.230]> <v03007808b1d285af5115@[198.133.146.230]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"UXjiQ2.0.Nd3.J4Eir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20703
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:
> The left parentheses "(" to represent the radial field. The figure is still
> valid, both visually and mathematically, as the parentheses approach the
> polar axis, with one modification: The parentheses get more and more shaped
> like square brackets "[", and in so doing, the rubber band (or magnetic
> flux tubes) thicken at the corners. Right at the axis the flux line is
> actually the sum of an infinite number of infinitessimal contributions of
> transverse flux tubes, the ones that come toward the poles from the
> transverse wave surface where B_theta = 0, the wave null midway between two
> transverse wave peaks.

Michael. B_theta fades to zero everywhere along the axis, before it 
reaches the the axis. NOT only at the null of longitudinal wave, also 
at the peak of the longitudinal wave. What you say may make sense for 
adding up infinitessimal contributions for the radial field lines which
exist just off the axis, but the transverse field lines can never 
contribute to any of the flux line which is right on the axis. It
can never get there. Furthermore if it could get there, there is still
the problem of a flux line making a right angle turn [ . All spacial 
derivatives would be infinite. 
 
> The EM field we have written corresponds to the external field, the 
> field outside of the source. It is an exact solution to Maxwell's 
> equations; no approximations. It is one of the few exact, non plane-wave 
> solutions that can be written down with a small number of terms. 

Indeed so. And look at all the longitudinal travelling wave components 
which exist in the dipole radiation problem. The infinite plane wave is 
a mathematical abstraction -- not physically realizable. The solution 
of the fields for an infinite planar wave consists only of transverse 
wave components. Most physically realizable EM waves, with a few
exceptions (such as a pure TEM wave in a coax waveguide), generally 
must contain longitudinal as well as transverse wave components. 

Especially, longtiduinal wave components must exist in whatever EM 
model is suitable for describing a photon of non-zero spin.     

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 18 12:20:34 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA07018;
	Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:13:05 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:13:05 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35B0F167.446A keelynet.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:03:03 -0500
From: "Jerry W. Decker" <jdecker keelynet.com>
Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Mystery Pressure
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"0yDD32.0.Tj1.-EFir" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20704
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts!

Would anyone here have any information on the following:
===============
Here is an interesting description of another device that used the same
'mechanically produced cold dry vapor' that Keely used.  

The account is a quote from page 311 of 'Free Energy Pioneer: John
Worrell Keely' by Theo Paijmans and purports to have utilized a KNOWN
PHENOMENON to produce pressure;

  "...I will say that I have in practical operation, capable of
   doing useful work, a simple apparatus which generates a constant
   pressure of fifteen pounds per square inch, without heat,   
   chemical or electrical action, or the employment of any other
   materials than a small quantity of air and water.  

   I use the low pressure only for convenience, but can at pleasure 
   increase it indefinitely in the same apparatus.  I can assure 
   the public that producing a pressure only limited by the 
   strength of the generator, from no other source of power than 
   a small quantity of cold water, air moving slowly therein, 
   is no 'humbug,' nor new discovery, but is a fact, long shown to 
   scientists and mathematicians.

   ..respectfully, A. Arnold, Tenafly, New Jersey, July 4th, 1875."
==================
Mr. Arnold indicates the phenomenon was not secret but I can't find a
thing about it.  Thanks for any insights you might provide.
-- 
            Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
          http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
             ICQ # - 13175100   /   AOL - Keelyman
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 18 14:47:22 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA23549;
	Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:38:16 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:38:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102801b1d6bda0a8a6 [12.64.66.79]>
In-Reply-To: <199807181354.JAA04272 mercury.mv.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:24:22 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: New Info on Mizuno-Ohmori Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"uee6s.0.tl5.7NHir" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20705
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gene -

   >  He started with a slightly cooler solution temp ( about
   >  78C -- normally he cranked  up the voltage from a
   >  higher figure: 80- 85 C)

Anodizing tend to be very temperature sensitive. In the cooler batch,
initially there might be a chemical layer formed on the metal that never
gets a chance to form at the higher temperature. With the materials I work
with in acid solution, 78C is already way above any working temperature,
but at much higher voltage at power...haven't tried HV anodizing yet. Need
some big capacitors. But if certain chemical layers are important to the
ignition of the heat that melts the tungsten into a ball, this might be a
factor.

As for persistence, hot globs of stuff persist for surprisingly long times
underwater due to the insulating gas skin that forms over them. The hotter
the better for this effect to work. Pahoehoe lava flows along nicely
underwater, and  you never reach into a quench-bucket to pick out a piece
of hot metal you've thrown in there until after you hear the
"cheeeeoooomfff" of the steam skin finally collapsing against the surface
of the metal.

Do the remains in the bottom of the beaker consist of a melted ball of
clean tungsten, or just a mass of metal and oxides?

Maybe the high heat as well as the electricity is breaking down water and
recombining it as "Brown's gas" right at the site. I've read the debates on
how BG can vaporize tungsten, etc. Apparently those heats arise from
chemical reactions with gasses according to one idea, and some people claim
to notice a distinct ozone smell during these operations. But the idea of a
bunch of oxide slags piling up runs contrary to all the clean BG welds, too.

By the way, does anyone know if BG works well welding aluminum, say,
compared to TIG?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 18 17:50:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02901;
	Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:37:31 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:37:31 -0700
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Carbonic Acid Catalysis of CO and H2O to Formic Acid?
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 00:37:46 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35b13be3.5357372 mail-hub>
References: <009701bdb209$cb9dad00$2f8f85ce default>
In-Reply-To: <009701bdb209$cb9dad00$2f8f85ce default>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"6tgSc.0.Fj.B_Jir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20706
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:57:56 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>Subject: Re: Carbonic Acid Catalysis of CO and H2O to Formic Acid?
[snip]
>>>Under ordinary circumstances CO does not react
>>>with water: CO + H2O ---> H-CO-OH.
>>>
>>>However, in the presence of CO2 and H2O, Carbonic Acid H2CO3 <---> 2 H+ +
>>>CO3= or H+ + HCO3- is formed which, in effect catalyzes the reaction of CO
>>>with H2O to form the Formic Acid H-CO-OH.
>>[snip]
>>Not sure how you see this catalysis working Frederick (or is it a
>>standard reaction, of which I am simply ignorant)?
>
>"Standard Reaction", Robin,
>See Patent #4,564,516 (Jan 14, 1986) I've worked with Doug Elliott and John
>Sealock at PNL for over 15 years. The Ammonia forms the
>Ammonium Carbonate in water solution and effectively catalyzes the Shift
>Reaction:
>CO + H2O ---> CO2 + H2, possibly with the Formic Acid intermediate in
>alkaline solution.
[snip]
I looked at this patent. I get the very strong impression that it is
the ammonia itself that is the catalyzing agent, not the carbonic
acid, as you originally suggested. 


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 18 18:42:42 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11034;
	Sat, 18 Jul 1998 18:33:49 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 18:33:49 -0700
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:22:26 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Minato motor in Mexico?
X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <199807181722.KAA22337 smtp1.asu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"KqLq3.0.Hi2.ypKir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20707
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Well, its been a week since the demonstration of the Minato motor to all
those large South American industrial companies. Surely there must be
something to report by someone if the thing worked!?? And they wouldn't
have stuck their necks out for a public demo like that if it didn't work,
would they? Oh nooo..., I feel another disappointment coming on.

And where is that very promising Case device? No self-sustainer yet? Even
if not, has a Case cell been sent to Scott or someone else for independent
calorimetry? Surely not another disappointment.....

And then there is the SMOT, RMOG, etc. where we have Greg apparently not
even willing to answer a simple question as to whether anything is running
or how long is the longest anything has run. Another disappointment.....

Bring on the next gizmo du jour! Its like a soap opera.

--Lynn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 18 20:18:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27102;
	Sat, 18 Jul 1998 20:12:28 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 20:12:28 -0700
Message-ID: <35B1648C.B2256763 ro.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:14:20 -0500
From: "Patrick V. Reavis" <preavis ro.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Way off topic...
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"IItWa3.0.Jd6.RGMir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20708
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

<HTML>


<P>Another Lesson in Life
<BR>A while back I read about an expert on subject of time management.&nbsp;
One day
<BR>the expert spoke to a group of business students and, to drive home
a point,
<BR>used the following illustration.
<BR>As this man stood in front of the group he said, "Okay, time for a
quiz."
<BR>Then he pulled out a one-gallon, wide-mouthed mason jar and set it
on a
<BR>table in front of him.&nbsp; Then he produced about a dozen fist-sized
rocks and
<BR>carefully placed them, one at a time, into the jar.
<BR>When the jar was filled to the top and no more rocks would fit inside,
he
<BR>asked, "Is this jar full?"
<BR>Everyone in the class said, "Yes."
<BR>Then he said, "Really?" He reached under the table and pulled out a
bucket
<BR>of gravel.&nbsp; Then he dumped some gravel in and shook the jar causing
pieces
<BR>of gravel to work themselves down into the spaces between the big rocks.
<BR>Then he asked the group once more, "Is the jar full?"
<BR>By this time the class was onto him.&nbsp; "Probably not," one of them
answered.
<BR>"Good!" he replied.
<BR>He reached under the table and brought out a bucket of sand.&nbsp;
He started
<BR>dumping the sand in and it went into all the spaces left between the
rocks
<BR>and the gravel.&nbsp; Once more he asked the question, "Is this jar
full?"
<BR>"No!" the class shouted.
<BR>Once again he said, "Good!" Then he grabbed a pitcher of water and
began to
<BR>pour it in until the jar was filled to the brim.&nbsp; Then he looked
up at the
<BR>class and asked, "What is the point of this illustration?"
<BR>A student raised his hand and said, "The point is, no matter how full
your
<BR>schedule is, if you try really hard, you can always fit some more things
<BR>into it!"
<BR>"No, you are wrong." the speaker replied, "That is not the point at
all.
<BR>The truth this illustration teaches us is this: If you don't put the
big
<BR>rocks in first, you'll never get them in at all."

<P>What are the 'big rocks' in your life?

<P>A project that you want to accomplish?
<BR>Time with your loved ones?
<BR>Your faith, your education, your finances?
<BR>A cause?
<BR>Teaching or mentoring others?
<BR>&nbsp;

<P>I just had to share this with all of you....
<BR>--
<BR>Regards,
<BR>Patrick V. Reavis
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 18 20:30:10 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29596;
	Sat, 18 Jul 1998 20:25:07 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 20:25:07 -0700
Message-ID: <35B16665.2C01 keelynet.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:22:13 -0500
From: "Jerry W. Decker" <jdecker keelynet.com>
Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: KeelyNet-L lists.kz
CC: paijm001 wxs.nl, Tebearden@aol.com, PiyushSaxena@usa.net, petkell@stc.net,
        herman antioch-college.edu, jcollins@free-energy.co.uk, don@tinaja.com,
        rivas theriver.com, john1@nidlink.com, jmanning@axionet.com,
        hcurtis1 ix.netcom.com, halfox@uswest.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Minato could be over estimated
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"RXiIF.0.ME7.ISMir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20709
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Hal, Folks and Gnorts to all!

Got the following short email about the recent Minato self-running
magnetic motor demonstration in Mexico City;
=================
Hal Fox was down in Mexico City last weekend to see the Minato demo. He
told me on the phone Thursday that it was disappointing. Usual
difficulties with measuring input power and output power. 

The 1,000 pound unit only puts out a net gain of around a horsepower.
Maybe it has about the same power gain as a real horse without having to
feed it hay! 

I expect Hal to write up a full report for his New Energy News magazine. 
==============
Hal, anything you can report online in the meantime, you know we're all
intensely interested in this....thanks!!
-- 
            Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
          http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
             ICQ # - 13175100   /   AOL - Keelyman
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 18 21:49:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06120;
	Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:39:31 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:39:31 -0700
Message-ID: <35B16B2E.E33 earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:42:38 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Murray: Carbon nanotubes conduct 10E7 A/cm2  6.18.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"7QYLA3.0.YV1.2YNir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20710
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/story.asp?filename=980618032441

Tiny Computers Of Carbon? Nanotubes That Conduct Huge Currents Without
      Heating Could Be Basis For New Electronics 

                 A report to be published in the June 12 issue of the
journal Science moves researchers one step closer to a practical
application for electron wave effects in extremely small-scale circuits. 

                 In the paper, a team of scientists from the Georgia
Institute of Technology reports observing ballistic conductance -- a
phenomenon in which electrons pass through a conductor without heating
it -- at room temperature in multi-walled carbon nanotubes up to five
microns long. (A micron is a millionth of a meter). 

                 Structures of that size operating under those
conditions could one day be useful for fabricating ever-smaller
electronic devices. Their ability to conduct relatively large currents
without harmful resistance heating would allow use of the very small
conductors. 

                 "This is the first time that ballistic conductance has
been seen at any temperature in a three dimensional system of this
scale," said Dr. Walt de Heer, a professor in Georgia Tech's School of
Physics. "There would be interest in this for ultra-small electronics,
because it shows that you can constrain current flows to narrow areas
without heating up the electronics. It also introduces a new stage of
electronics in which the wave nature of electrons becomes important." 

                 In a simple experimental design using the positioning
equipment of an atomic force microscope, the researchers found that the
electrical resistance of the multi walled carbon nanotubes remained
constant -- regardless of their length or width. This quantum
conductance is not seen in larger structures. 

                 "In classical physics, the resistance of a metal bar is
proportional to its length," said Dr. Z.L. Wang, a professor in Georgia
Tech's School of Materials Science and Engineering. "If you make it
twice as long, you will have twice as much resistance. But for these
nanotubes, it makes no difference whether they are long or short because
the resistance is independent of the length or the diameter." 

                 That's possible, explained de Heer, because the
electrons act more like waves than particles in structures whose size
approaches that of the wavelength of electrons. "The electrons are
passing through these nanotubes as if they were light waves passing
through an optical waveguide," he said. "It's more like optics than
electronics." 

                 In normal wires, the electrical energy they carry
dissipates in the conductor, but in the nanotubes, energy dissipates
only in the leads used to connect the tubes. Such effects had previously
been seen only in structures a thousand  times smaller, and finding them
in the comparatively large nanotubes was "quite surprising," de Heer
said. 

                 "Until now, these effects were considered to be exotic
and seen only under very special conditions," he said. "Now we are
seeing them abundantly and easily at room temperature with very simple
devices." 

                 The absence of heating allows extremely large current
densities to flow through the nanotubes. Wang and de Heer measured
current densities greater than ten million amperes per square
centimeter. Normal resistance heating  would have generated temperatures
of 20,000 K in the nanotubes, well beyond their combustion temperature
of 700 K. 

                 Though they these effects were measured only in
nanotubes of less than five microns, such current densities are far
greater than could be handled by any other conductor, Wang noted. At
lengths of more than five microns, however, de Heer believes electron
scattering may defeat the ballistic conductance effect. 

                 "We can only guarantee that we can carry that kind of
current over five microns," he said. "We don't know what will happen if
you try to conduct for longer distances. This will certainly not be a
way to transport current over large distances." 

                 In their laboratory, de Heer, Wang and collaborators
Stefan Frank and Philippe Poncharal attached a tiny electrode to a
bundle of nanotubes that had a single long tube protruding from one end.
They mounted the bundle in place of the probe normally used in an atomic
force microscope and connected a battery to the electrode. 

                 They then used the microscope controls to raise and
lower the single protruding nanotube into and out of a pool of mercury
that served to complete the circuit back to the battery. The resistance
they measured as the nanotube was raised and lowered into the mercury
remained constant, changing only when a shorter tube protruding from the
bundle -- which resembles a handful of straw -- made contact with the
liquid metal. 

                 The researchers measured the resistance of 20 nanotubes
of different lengths and diameters through as many as 1,000 cycles that
consisted of dipping them in and out of mercury and two other molten
metals -- gallium and Cerrolow-117. The tubes averaged 15 nanometers
wide and four microns long, but ranged from one to five microns in
length, with diameters from 1.4 nanometers to 50 nanometers. The quantum
of resistance remained 12.9 kiliohms. 

                 Despite the importance of the discovery, de Heer
cautions that electronic devices using nanotube conductors are perhaps
decades away. One fundamental issue is that carbon materials are
incompatible with the silicon that is the basis of current integrated
circuits. Solving that challenge will require a revolution in electronic
design. 

                 "It would be like introducing silicon transistors
during the age of vacuum tubes," he said. "You couldn't combine the two
because they are from different worlds. This just opens the door, it
doesn't tell you how to build a better world. This should be seen as the
proof of principle showing that we can do ballistic conductance at room
temperature." 

                 The researchers hope to follow up their work with
measurements of other predicted device properties of the nanotubes. The
research is sponsored by the U.S. Army Research Office and the Georgia
Tech Foundation.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 18 22:04:10 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08471;
	Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:58:09 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:58:09 -0700
Message-ID: <35B16F84.799C earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:01:08 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, chubb@neptune.nrl.navy.mil, tchubb@aol.com,
        Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Murray: carbon nanotubes conduct 10E7 A/cm2 :  D2  fusion?  7.18.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"voG9B.0.H42.WpNir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20711
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

June 18, 1998

Hello Scott and Talbot,  If these carbon nanotubes were filled with
moving, high-pressure D2, would coherent states develop, analogous to
ion band state overlap, that would allow fusion?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/story.asp?filename=980618032441

Tiny Computers Of Carbon? Nanotubes That Conduct Huge Currents Without
      Heating Could Be Basis For New Electronics 

                 A report to be published in the June 12 issue of the
journal Science moves researchers one step closer to a practical
application for electron wave effects in extremely small-scale circuits. 

                 In the paper, a team of scientists from the Georgia
Institute of Technology reports observing ballistic conductance -- a
phenomenon in which electrons pass through a conductor without heating
it -- at room temperature in multi-walled carbon nanotubes up to five
microns long. (A micron is a millionth of a meter). 

                 Structures of that size operating under those
conditions could one day be useful for fabricating ever-smaller
electronic devices. Their ability to conduct relatively large currents
without harmful resistance heating would allow use of the very small
conductors. 

                 "This is the first time that ballistic conductance has
been seen at any temperature in a three dimensional system of this
scale," said Dr. Walt de Heer, a professor in Georgia Tech's School of
Physics. "There would be interest in this for ultra-small electronics,
because it shows that you can constrain current flows to narrow areas
without heating up the electronics. It also introduces a new stage of
electronics in which the wave nature of electrons becomes important." 

                 In a simple experimental design using the positioning
equipment of an atomic force microscope, the researchers found that the
electrical resistance of the multi walled carbon nanotubes remained
constant -- regardless of their length or width. This quantum
conductance is not seen in larger structures. 

                 "In classical physics, the resistance of a metal bar is
proportional to its length," said Dr. Z.L. Wang, a professor in Georgia
Tech's School of Materials Science and Engineering. "If you make it
twice as long, you will have twice as much resistance. But for these
nanotubes, it makes no difference whether they are long or short because
the resistance is independent of the length or the diameter." 

                 That's possible, explained de Heer, because the
electrons act more like waves than particles in structures whose size
approaches that of the wavelength of electrons. "The electrons are
passing through these nanotubes as if they were light waves passing
through an optical waveguide," he said. "It's more like optics than
electronics." 

                 In normal wires, the electrical energy they carry
dissipates in the conductor, but in the nanotubes, energy dissipates
only in the leads used to connect the tubes. Such effects had previously
been seen only in structures a thousand  times smaller, and finding them
in the comparatively large nanotubes was "quite surprising," de Heer
said. 

                 "Until now, these effects were considered to be exotic
and seen only under very special conditions," he said. "Now we are
seeing them abundantly and easily at room temperature with very simple
devices." 

                 The absence of heating allows extremely large current
densities to flow through the nanotubes. Wang and de Heer measured
current densities greater than ten million amperes per square
centimeter. Normal resistance heating  would have generated temperatures
of 20,000 K in the nanotubes, well beyond their combustion temperature
of 700 K. 

                 Though they these effects were measured only in
nanotubes of less than five microns, such current densities are far
greater than could be handled by any other conductor, Wang noted. At
lengths of more than five microns, however, de Heer believes electron
scattering may defeat the ballistic conductance effect. 

                 "We can only guarantee that we can carry that kind of
current over five microns," he said. "We don't know what will happen if
you try to conduct for longer distances. This will certainly not be a
way to transport current over large distances." 

                 In their laboratory, de Heer, Wang and collaborators
Stefan Frank and Philippe Poncharal attached a tiny electrode to a
bundle of nanotubes that had a single long tube protruding from one end.
They mounted the bundle in place of the probe normally used in an atomic
force microscope and connected a battery to the electrode. 

                 They then used the microscope controls to raise and
lower the single protruding nanotube into and out of a pool of mercury
that served to complete the circuit back to the battery. The resistance
they measured as the nanotube was raised and lowered into the mercury
remained constant, changing only when a shorter tube protruding from the
bundle -- which resembles a handful of straw -- made contact with the
liquid metal. 

                 The researchers measured the resistance of 20 nanotubes
of different lengths and diameters through as many as 1,000 cycles that
consisted of dipping them in and out of mercury and two other molten
metals -- gallium and Cerrolow-117. The tubes averaged 15 nanometers
wide and four microns long, but ranged from one to five microns in
length, with diameters from 1.4 nanometers to 50 nanometers. The quantum
of resistance remained 12.9 kiliohms. 

                 Despite the importance of the discovery, de Heer
cautions that electronic devices using nanotube conductors are perhaps
decades away. One fundamental issue is that carbon materials are
incompatible with the silicon that is the basis of current integrated
circuits. Solving that challenge will require a revolution in electronic
design. 

                 "It would be like introducing silicon transistors
during the age of vacuum tubes," he said. "You couldn't combine the two
because they are from different worlds. This just opens the door, it
doesn't tell you how to build a better world. This should be seen as the
proof of principle showing that we can do ballistic conductance at room
temperature." 

                 The researchers hope to follow up their work with
measurements of other predicted device properties of the nanotubes. The
research is sponsored by the U.S. Army Research Office and the Georgia
Tech Foundation.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 19 03:05:17 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA02447;
	Sun, 19 Jul 1998 02:58:03 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 02:58:03 -0700
Message-Id: <35B1C2D6.59601C0 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:56:38 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Additinal info on UB negative R
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"CJkAR3.0.4c.hCSir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20712
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/story.asp?filename=980717090833


This note is on the end of the article:

Editor's Note: An earlier news release entitled
"SUPERCONDUCTION AT ROOM TEMPERATURE: NEGATIVE
 ELECTRICAL RESISTANCE SEEN IN CARBON COMPOSITES"
was issued on July 9, 1998, by the University of Buffalo news office
but was later pulled off their Web site. In that release, the claim was
made that "Materials engineers at the University at Buffalo have
made two discoveries that have enabled carbon-fiber materials to
superconduct at room temperature." A spokesperson earlier this
week said that the news release was pulled "because we are at the
moment trying to get some answers to some fairly important
questions ... that have been asked already." The news office
subsequently issued a revised news release, which we have
reposted here. The complete news release is available at
http://www.buffalo.edu/news/Latest/ChungResistance.html

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 19 09:51:04 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02212;
	Sun, 19 Jul 1998 09:44:58 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 09:44:58 -0700
Message-ID: <001701bdb334$f7ff0ac0$4711a098 data>
From: "Edward Kauffmann" <edk rayflex.com>
To: <KeelyNet-L lists.kz>, <Vortex-L@eskimo.com>, <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Flipping Magnetic Fields??
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:44:41 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003D_01BDB312.FF4C0FC0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"EvWz1.0.TY.9AYir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20713
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BDB312.FF4C0FC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sorry if you have already seen this, but if you haven't or you know more
please take a look at this.  I've attached the original email for reference.

////////////////////////////////////////////

Hi Everyone,

I just dug up this email Jerry Decker sent a few months back, and I tried to
duplicate
this effect.  I got the effects mentioned except the poles do not appear to
flip as indicated below.

This is the key statement:

>>  He says this happens not because the attraction to the plate is
>>  stronger than the pole repulsions (after all, it has magnetized the
>>  plate with the same polarity so is essentially an extension of the
>>  magnet pole energy)....but he says he watched the fields at different
>>  points and when the magnets begin to attract, the moving magnet pole
>>  actually FLIPS!


>From what I see, the attraction IS from the plate being stronger than the
pole repulsions.

If we have magnet A, B and C with A's north pole stuck to one side of an
iron rod and then bring B's north pole close to the other side of the iron
rod, we get a repelling zone until we bring B up closer to the rod and then
it sticks.  According to the attached email, the poles actually flip.  Now
if this were true, wouldn't we be able to bring magnet C's north side up to
B's south side and they should repel?

If this switching of poles did take place, I have an idea of how to make a
device that should work and it would be very easy to build.  However, this
doesn't appear to be the case.

Has anyone else played more with this and can comment?  Thanks.

Regards,

Ed


------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BDB312.FF4C0FC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	name="Flipping Magnetic Fields.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Flipping Magnetic Fields.txt"

From: Jerry W. Decker <jdecker keelynet.com>
To: KeelyNet-L lists.kz <KeelyNet-L@lists.kz>
Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>; vortex-l@eskimo.com =
<vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Flipping Magnetic Fields??
Date: Saturday, March 07, 1998 1:23 PM

Hi Folks!

This is an email I sent to a friend and researcher;

>  Well, better to try and fail....this info was shared courtesy of Wes=20
>  Crosiar..so thank him if you have occasion to communicate...he's been =

>  ill with a flu and is better now...

>  Something odd you might be interested in...a fellow (Wes) says you=20
>  can take a magnet, like a cylinder or bar....put a thick metal piece=20
>  on one pole (doesn't matter)....then bring a similar magnet close to=20
>  the metal plate so that the approaching pole is identical to the one=20
>  it is moving near to.

>  As I am told, when you slowly move the magnet towards the metal =
plate,
>  you will find the magnets repel until right before you get to the
>  plate...then all of sudden, it will attract and both magnets will=20
>  stick to the plate.

>  He says this happens not because the attraction to the plate is=20
>  stronger than the pole repulsions (after all, it has magnetized the=20
>  plate with the same polarity so is essentially an extension of the=20
>  magnet pole energy)....but he says he watched the fields at different =

>  points and when the magnets begin to attract, the moving magnet pole
>  actually FLIPS!

>  He believes this is the key to the Sweet device, the Minato=20
>  self-driven magnetic wheel and other devices....it is almost exactly=20
>  what Wesley Gary said happened with his magnetic 'neutral line'.....

>  Isn't that interesting????  I'm going to do that when I get some =
steel
>  plate...he says the thicker the =
better....--------------------------------------------
The email response was;

>> Well - it does! (flip polarity)
>> I have a few rare earths. This effect can be seen at 4 to 6 inches.=20
>> The non metallic magnet turns and tries to spin around. (I just went=20
>> in the shop and tested it!) There is something else odd, the magnet =
at
>> a distance, turns about 30 to 45 degrees and stays there.=20
>> (with regard to the Minato self-running bicycle wheel as at;
>> http://keelynet.com/gravity/curtis0.htm ) I am trying to find a=20
>> small smooth plate I can mount 1 nib to so I can see exactly what it=20
>> does. It would seem many on a plate will turn.....=20

>> But I have to test this magnet thingy! I find heavy chrome from my =
old=20
>> motorcycle makes super conductor for magnets. I get more power using=20
>> them than iron.  If I can rig it, I will have pictures for you. =
-------------------------------------------------
Many of my associates think the Sweet device used such a magnetic bubble =

switch effect, and Wes says Coler and Hendershot also used it..>>> Jerry
--=20
               Jerry W. Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
          http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BDB312.FF4C0FC0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 19 16:35:55 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24377;
	Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:27:23 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:27:23 -0700
Message-Id: <199807192327.SAA04457 neon.prysm.net>
From: "Robert Calloway" <billc9 prysm.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Bad Hard Drive 
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 18:36:41 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"4G0wp2.0.hy5.R3eir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20714
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


        " Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see"

  My..My.. What a statement. It is totaly false though, and I intend
to prove it. I'm going to dwell only on the two senses, sight and hearing.
Amazing how these two senses are the only ones reactive to wavelenghts
that we have. If I am crossing a street and all of a sudden hear screeching
tires and look up and see a car about to run over me, should I run?
 Can I believe what I am seeing and hearing? The sound waves from the tires
screeching on wavelenght to the ear drum wich relays to the brain danger,
then as I look at the car coming, about to run me over light waves at a
certain wavelenght that my eyes understand send another message to the
brain 
saying...MOVE FAST. Goodness..and we think our home computer is fast.
 The point is.. is that we are just that, a computer for a brain. The two 
words brain and computer are basicly the same. Amazing how computers are 
set up on the same principle as the human brain! The human brain has a
place 
for short term memory, such as ram for a computer. And a place for long
term
memory, such as a hard drive in a computer. Our human brain version of a
floppy disk, is to write it down on paper or we may forget it because ram
is
erased when a different program is started..
 Now.. not being made equal.. some of us have better hard drives and more 
ram. Some do not need to hit the floppy drive as often as others because we

are gifted with enough ram to run more than one program at a time!
So... the human brain is programed to recieve certain wavelenghts for sight

and sound. If anything else is going on before or beyound these wavelenghts
the human brain doesnt respond to them. So as far as we are concerned, they
dont exist. I say.."Believe nothing you hear and nothing you see".
 I said I wasnt going to talk about the other senses but.. I "smell" dinner
cooking, and I can just "taste" it. So... I "feel" I better go get it
before 
it gets cold.

                Regards,  Robert H. Calloway
                           7-19-98

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 19 17:01:44 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10482;
	Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:59:37 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:59:37 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <000701bdb36f$ab064ae0$91b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Delta Air Lines Flight Information - Flight 1589 (http://java.delta-air.com/ser
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:47:03 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BDB33D.3D8EFD40"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"ed5ga.0.iZ2.cXeir" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20715
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BDB33D.3D8EFD40
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

My son-in-law is on a return trip from Madrid on Delta flight 109(after a
month of orientation on the Euro Currency, in Brussels)via  Atlanta. I think
I know more about where he is than he does.   :-)    FJS

http://java.delta-air.com/servlet/DeltaFlifo

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BDB33D.3D8EFD40
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="Delta Air Lines Flight Information - Flight 1589.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Delta Air Lines Flight Information - Flight 1589.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://java.delta-air.com/servlet/DeltaFlifo
Modified=605E43EA6EB3BD01CA

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BDB33D.3D8EFD40--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 19 19:33:22 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21745;
	Sun, 19 Jul 1998 19:24:48 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 19:24:48 -0700
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980720022627.00695550 freeway.net>
X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:26:27 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Edwin Strojny <estrojny freeway.net>
Subject: Puthoff & Little on Discovery Channel
Resent-Message-ID: <"Yx4bn.0.hJ5.lfgir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20716
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

By chance I turned to the Discovery Channel when Hal Puthoff came on and
explained ZPE. I caught a glimpse of Scott Little running an experiment.
Was there any significance to that oscilloscope trace of two sine waves
about 90 deg. out of phase?

Ed Strojny

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 19 19:37:41 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27552;
	Sun, 19 Jul 1998 19:33:59 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 19:33:59 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <01BDB35B.891FCB40.stk sunherald.infi.net>
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: FW: Biefield-Brown effect real??
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:23:54 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"RJYQx.0.Qk6.Kogir" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20717
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



-----Original Message-----
From:	Kyle R. Mcallister [SMTP:stk sunherald.infi.net]
Sent:	Sunday, July 19, 1998 9:21 PM
To:	'freenrg-l eskimo.com'
Subject:	Biefield-Brown effect real??

All:

Earlier today my grandfather watched the last part of a TV show on The 
Learning Channel about Thomas Townsend Brown's 'electrogravity effect'. He 
(my grandfather) said there was a man, possibly Marc Millis, at NASA's 
Breakthrough Propulsion Physics project who said that NASA was interested 
in taking another look at the effect using from 30 to 40kV. The man said 
there may be something to the effect after all. Note: this show was 
obviously produced after Talley's unsuccessful replication using only 19kV. 
Talley's test was done in 1991. The Breakthrough Propulsion Physics project 
didn't get off the ground until 1996. Anyone have any more info on this? 
Perhaps I should go ahead with my Biefield-Brown effect experiments...

Kyle R. Mcallister
Email: stk sunherald.infi.net
Phone: 228-875-0629
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/5257

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 19 20:39:52 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02722;
	Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:31:52 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:31:52 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980719223326.008a3300 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:33:26 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Puthoff & Little on Discovery Channel
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980720022627.00695550 freeway.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"KmzCH1.0.Ng.eehir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20718
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 10:26 PM 7/19/98 -0400, Edwin Strojny wrote:
>By chance I turned to the Discovery Channel when Hal Puthoff came on and
>explained ZPE. I caught a glimpse of Scott Little running an experiment.
>Was there any significance to that oscilloscope trace of two sine waves
>about 90 deg. out of phase?

You haven't given me enough information to remember what experiment that
might have been, Ed.  But we've only been on two TV shows, the first was
called "It runs on water" made by BBC's Channel 4.  The second was
Scientific American Frontiers.  I'm pretty sure it had to be in the first
one and therefore it was likely to be a display of the current and voltage
to a high-powered piezoelectric xducer for our cavitation experiments
(attempt to observe the E-Quest excess heat phenomenon).


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 00:39:51 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA00733;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:35:25 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:35:25 -0700
X-Authentication-Warning: sh.diac.com: ekwall2 owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 01:31:37 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
To: Vortex-L <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Delta Air Lines Flight Information - Flight 1589 (http://java.delta-air.com/ser
In-Reply-To: <000701bdb36f$ab064ae0$91b4bfa8 default>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720012506.28040A-101000 sh.diac.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BDB33D.3D8EFD40"
Content-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720012506.28040B sh.diac.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"DCaTV2.0.MB.yClir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20719
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BDB33D.3D8EFD40
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1
Content-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720012506.28040C sh.diac.com>

On Sun, 19 Jul 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
My son-in-law is on a return trip from Madrid on Delta flight 109(after a
month of orientation on the Euro Currency, in Brussels)via  Atlanta. I think
I know more about where he is than he does.   :-)    FJS
http://java.delta-air.com/servlet/DeltaFlifo
----------------------------

I don't know about the "flight"etc, but I've been personally amazed that
somehow the Euro Currency has even taken root!  Kidoos, ALL HANDS UP, to
those that are attempting this HERCULEAN effort.  IT SHOULD WORK!! :)


-=se=-
steve ( my ~ol copier didn't copy dollar bills anyway) ekwall <smile>

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BDB33D.3D8EFD40
Content-Type: APPLICATION/OCTET-STREAM; NAME="Delta Air Lines Flight Information - Flight 1589.url"
Content-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720012506.28040D sh.diac.com>
Content-Description: 

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://java.delta-air.com/servlet/DeltaFlifo
Modified=605E43EA6EB3BD01CA

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BDB33D.3D8EFD40--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 00:44:47 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA01366;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:37:30 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:37:30 -0700
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:37:55 -0700
X-Intended-For: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-Id: <199807200737.AAA05177 slave2.aa.net>
X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: The Voice of Authority
Resent-Message-ID: <"iHIX41.0.GL.wElir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20720
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts,

        A woman goes to a department store to do some shopping.  She picks
up a few things that she had on her list, and then she sees a small,
rectangular aquarium with two gold fish in it.  One of the fishes is young,
and the other is old.  She's quite taken by the colors, and the price is
quite affordable, so she buys the aquarium, too.  She carefully places the
aquarium in the front seat of her car on top of her other purchases, and the
fishes are able to look out the window.  She slowly drives home, takes the
aquarium out of the car, and places it in the center of a small table by a
window overlooking a beautiful flower garden.  As she stands back to admire
the beauty of the small aquarium, the younger fish turns to the older fish
and exclaims "Zowee!!  Can you believe that!?!  What a ride!!"  The older
fish slowly smiles at the younger fish, and says with the voice of
authority, "That was nothing.  Stick with me kid, and maybe someday I'll
show you how to _really_ drive this thing."

-Knuke

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 04:19:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA13760;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 04:13:03 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 04:13:03 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:03:44 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Delta, Euro
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720012506.28040A-101000 sh.diac.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980720114539.10016B-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"F1-Rt1.0.wM3.zOoir" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20721
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Steve Ekwall wrote:

> I don't know about the "flight"etc, but I've been personally amazed that
> somehow the Euro Currency has even taken root!  Kidoos, ALL HANDS UP, to
> those that are attempting this HERCULEAN effort.  IT SHOULD WORK!! :)
> 

Why are people so keen on devolving their democracy away to others? Is 
there some conspriacy going on? Was it where Napolean and Hitler failed, 
Chriac and Wot'isname Big German will win?

Why not let currencies float? It's easy today with electronic commerce. I 
swear you will get regions priced out of the economy - you already see 
that in small scale in countries.

Why am I so gauche or churlish for thinking that this big government 
thing is some kind of conspiracy?

Go on! Nationalise all private endeavour! Leave the solution of the 
energy problem to the establishment! Let the state distribute bread! Let 
the state administer morality!

Oh, I get it now. It's a game. At 'posh' dinner parties one is meant to
say 'Oh, yah, I've read Satre, Wilde. Oh, yah, I do love Cage and
Stravinsky and dahling!, oh yah!, that european thingy where we give away
all our elected rights to unelected bureaucrats and not curse >60%
taxation, poor brainwashing state schools and a cynical populace broken
by the yoke of big state, because all the *right people* are saying so. Oh
yah, yah, yah, dahlink.'

'Oh yah, dahlink, yes, I'll bend over and let you f*** ** up the ***'

Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 07:29:03 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA08569;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:26:49 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:26:49 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:14:54 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Minato motor in Mexico?
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807201018_MC2-539F-96BF compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"QVx2f2.0.d52.YErir" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20722
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Lynn Kurtz writes:

     And where is that very promising Case device? No self-sustainer yet?

No, nothing yet. Apparently it more difficult than Case anticipated. Either
that, or he made a mistake in the calorimetry.


     Even if not, has a Case cell been sent to Scott or someone else for
     independent calorimetry?

What would be the point of sending the Case cell to Scott if it has not self
sustained? Why should Scott spend time working with a device when the inventor
cannot make it work?

If it does self-sustain, what would be the point of doing "independent
calorimetry?" Calorimetry can never be as convincing as a self sustaining
cell. If it self-sustains, we'll make a bunch of duplicate cells. If they
work, we'll send one Scott, and one to Lynn Kurtz for that matter, if he wants
it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 07:57:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA12496;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:49:02 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:49:02 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980720104607.00c153d0 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:46:07 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: [Off topic] Re: Delta, Euro
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980720114539.10016B-100000 iesun9>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980720012506.28040A-101000 sh.diac.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"eA6q-3.0.A33.RZrir" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20723
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 12:03 PM 7/20/98 +0100, Remi Cornwall wrote:
>Why are people so keen on devolving their democracy away to others? Is 
>there some conspriacy going on? Was it where Napolean and Hitler failed, 
>Chriac and Wot'isname Big German will win?
>
>Why not let currencies float? It's easy today with electronic commerce. I 
>swear you will get regions priced out of the economy - you already see 
>that in small scale in countries.

     The answer to the question is the phenomenum known as economic
friction.  Banking systems, currency conversions, credit markets, etc. all
have a damping effect on the economy.  As things like electronic transfer
of funds, etc. have been introduced, the velocity of money has grown.  (The
velocity of money is basically the amount of money that changes hands every
year, divided by the amougn of money in circulation.)  The velocity of
money in financial centers like New York City has long passed 400--the
average dollar in New York is spent more than once per day.  As other
factors have decreased, the effect of currency conversions has increased.
The net effect is that economies that are using "small" currencies have a
much lower velocity of money.

    Since credit markets have become globalized, this can no longer be
dealt with by having more money in circulation in smaller economies--the
credit flows out to where it can be more productive, larger economies
impose currency restrictions to keep the credit in the smaller economy from
destroying their own etc.  Thus in Europe, the smaller countries have been
seeing their currencies marginalized in industrial use.

    Now move all European countries to a single currency.  (Huge job, and a
lot of details I'll skip over.)  All countries even Germany and England
will benefit from the increase in productivity as the velocity of money
inceases. Of course, and it will be interesting to watch, it will be
necessary to withdraw currency from circulation during the process to avoid
overheating the various national economies.  Assuming this is done well,
Europe will again be competitive with the United States.

    The interesting thing for me will be to watch the effect on South
America.  Right now, South American commerce is only competitive if it is
dollar denominated.  In fact, there are countries such as Panama, where the
only local currency is the US dollar. If the conversion to the Euro
succeeds, I expect to see a similar effort within NAFTA within ten years.
On the other hand local businesses may just ignore the governments and make
the dollar the de facto currency.  Right now they don't do that because
they profit from paying their workers in local currencies, while selling
products on the international market.  If employees start negotiating to be
paid in dollars, the local currencies will effectively disappear.

    If this starts to happen, then the Pacific Rim econmies are going to
have to come up with their own standard currency.  Economies in other
regions of the world will have to choose between marginalization or joining
one of the major currencies, etc.  Economics is called the dismal science
for good reason.   

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 09:57:59 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01732;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:39:48 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:39:48 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:35:22 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Off topic] Euro, dismal science
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980720104607.00c153d0 spectre.mitre.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980720170914.22062A-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"NcvQp1.0.uQ.IBtir" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20724
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Vortex,

On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Robert I. Eachus wrote:

> At 12:03 PM 7/20/98 +0100, Remi Cornwall wrote:
> >Why not let currencies float? It's easy today with electronic commerce. I 
> >swear you will get regions priced out of the economy - you already see 
> >that in small scale in countries.
> 
>      The answer to the question is the phenomenum known as economic
> friction.  Banking systems, currency conversions, credit markets, etc. all
> have a damping effect on the economy.  As things like electronic transfer
> of funds, etc. have been introduced, the velocity of money has grown. 
> The net effect is that economies that are using "small" currencies have a
> much lower velocity of money.

This would encourage local commerce and development and stop economies
importing everything. i.e. third world country gets a bit of oil and lives
the life of Riley as long as it lasts. 

>     Since credit markets have become globalized, this can no longer be
> dealt with by having more money in circulation in smaller economies--the
> credit flows out to where it can be more productive, 

As long as they get a return for their invested buck, I see nothing wrong 
with this. It's called financial services. It's an industry you know.

> larger economies
> impose currency restrictions to keep the credit in the smaller economy from
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> destroying their own etc.  Thus in Europe, the smaller countries have been
> seeing their currencies marginalized in industrial use.

You're moving the goal posts. This isn't free market policy. Get tough on 
countries that don't play fair.

>     Now move all European countries to a single currency.  (Huge job, and a
> lot of details I'll skip over.)  All countries even Germany and England
> will benefit from the increase in productivity as the velocity of money
> inceases. 

We lose taxation and monetary policy. They used to call money 
*sovereigns* in this country. It had something to do with sovereignity.

> Of course, and it will be interesting to watch, it will be
> necessary to withdraw currency from circulation during the process to avoid
> overheating the various national economies.  Assuming this is done well,
> Europe will again be competitive with the United States.

Oh brother! It's the cuts in military spending from the end of the cold war 
that is giving Clinton a little girth.

> If employees start negotiating to be
> paid in dollars, the local currencies will effectively disappear.

Precisely. Let the people chose the main currency. The dollar is the
single currency. It's typical european anti-americanism. The
french/germans hate anglo-saxon-american culture and want to run
everything by bureau.  That's what it's really about. 

Don't be a mandarin and try to direct everybody's life. Economics is a
dismal science because it tries to model a highly complex system. We don't
want some jackass with his hand on the control lever manipulating
something he doesn't really understand and subject to the whims of
fashion. 

Leave it to the wisdom of those in the financial sector - they have the 
track record, not a professional politician. Economies have developed for 
thousands of years. Globalisation is new and fine, but anything that 
slows the velocity of money is a good thing and gives people time to 
think before investing. Also with a patchwork of economies you won't get 
region wide busts.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. If you don't understand 
something and you have the power to change things drastically, your 
asking for trouble.

(Single currency, another great idea dreamt up by some nicotine stained, 
smelly don, no doubt, during breaks between lectures. He's so smart but 
retreats from the real world to his ivory tower. Can't run his life, 
wants to run everybody else's. Who was Marx, God damn? Couldn't even feed 
his children.)

Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 11:47:38 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA23325;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:30:45 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:30:45 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980720142754.01a8fb00 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:27:54 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: [Off topic] Euro, dismal science
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980720170914.22062A-100000 iesun9>
References: <3.0.1.32.19980720104607.00c153d0 spectre.mitre.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Y26pe.0.Li5.Ipuir" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20725
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 05:35 PM 7/20/98 +0100, Remi Cornwall wrote:
>Don't be a mandarin and try to direct everybody's life. Economics is a
>dismal science because it tries to model a highly complex system. We don't
>want some jackass with his hand on the control lever manipulating
>something he doesn't really understand and subject to the whims of
>fashion. 
 
>Leave it to the wisdom of those in the financial sector - they have the 
>track record, not a professional politician. Economies have developed for 
>thousands of years. Globalisation is new and fine, but anything that 
>slows the velocity of money is a good thing and gives people time to 
>think before investing. Also with a patchwork of economies you won't get 
>region wide busts.

    Efficient financial networks route money flows around attempts to slow
the velocity of money.  So countries have two choices--make your financial
services sector inefficient, or deal with fast money flows.

    The Pacific Rim had been counting on the first choice for decades--they
just got blindsided badly.  Laws restricting currency flows in Hong Kong
can't stop futures, etc. trading in New York or Tokyo.  So unless you have
the ability to cut the country off from the rest of the world--Albania
tried and failed--you have to exist in the global economy.  In the global
economy, there is no such thing as a sovereign currency.  It is just one
more financial instrument in the marketplace.  But when that market moves,
it can hurt people who have debts or assets denominated in that currency.

    So for people, rich or poor, debtor or creditor, a more stable currency
is a godsend.  The "larger" the currency, the more stable it is.  Europe
has been trying to deal with the problem of "Eurodollars" for years--bonds
issued in some European country where the interest and principle are paid
in dollars.  This makes the local currency less stable, while increasing
the stability of the dollar.  With the Euro, interest rates on Euro and
dollar rated debt will be much closer.

    Note that trying to get the US into the Euro at the begining would
never have worked.  The US had nothing to gain from the Euro succeeding.
However, if/when the Euro succeeds, then it makes sense for the US and
Europe to discuss alignment and eventually merger of the currencies.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 12:15:55 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00937;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:07:45 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:07:45 -0700
From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
Message-Id: <v03007802b1d953eba61b [198.133.146.230]>
In-Reply-To: <35B0DEDB.5D29 skylink.net>
References: <v03007805b1d00c5f85a7 [198.133.146.230]>	
 <v03007807b1d131a46cb7 [198.133.146.230]>
 <v03007808b1d285af5115 [198.133.146.230]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:09:51 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
Resent-Message-ID: <"_40US2.0.XE.0Mvir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20726
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Robert Stirniman wrote:
>Michael. B_theta fades to zero everywhere along the axis, before it
>reaches the the axis. NOT only at the null of longitudinal wave, also
>at the peak of the longitudinal wave. What you say may make sense for
>adding up infinitessimal contributions for the radial field lines which
>exist just off the axis, but the transverse field lines can never
>contribute to any of the flux line which is right on the axis. It
>can never get there. Furthermore if it could get there, there is still
>the problem of a flux line making a right angle turn [ . All spacial
>derivatives would be infinite.
>
No, B_theta has a finite, non-zero derivative on the axis, even though
B_theta itself is zero everywhere on axis. Work it
out---d(B_theta)/d(theta). Also, work out div B and see for yourself how
B_theta contributes to it. It's not so hard to do, and it's very
educational.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 12:38:07 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09978;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:30:08 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:30:08 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980720142626.00cbd2b4 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:26:26 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Minato motor in Mexico?
In-Reply-To: <199807201018_MC2-539F-96BF compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"YbkHO3.0.pR2._gvir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20727
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:14 7/20/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>     Even if not, has a Case cell been sent to Scott or someone else for
>     independent calorimetry?
>
>What would be the point of sending the Case cell to Scott if it has not self
>sustained?

Plenty of point as far as I can see.  We have a standing invitation to Dr.
Case to visit EarthTech with his original apparatus for a free calorimetric
measurement of it.  If we obtain positive results with such a measurement
it will provide an enormous amount of enthusiasm for further pursuit of the
Case phenomenon.  If we obtain a negative result (i.e. a unity power
balance)...while Case still observes his temperature anomaly...it will
prove that the Case phenomenon is nothing but a temperature anomaly.

The self-sustainer was a short-cut around this procedure.  If it has fallen
upon technical difficulties there is still everything to be learned from a
calorimetric measurement of his original device.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 13:52:14 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04245;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:43:19 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:43:19 -0700
Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CCE xch-cpc-02>
From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [Off topic] Euro, dismal science
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:42:47 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"-NZ9H.0.z11.blwir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20728
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Robert
	A nice analysis and discussion of the fundamentals of international
finance.

Thank You
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Robert I. Eachus[SMTP:eachus mitre.org]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Monday, July 20, 1998 11:27 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Cc: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: [Off topic] Euro, dismal science
> 
> At 05:35 PM 7/20/98 +0100, Remi Cornwall wrote:
> >Don't be a mandarin and try to direct everybody's life. Economics is a
> >dismal science because it tries to model a highly complex system. We
> don't
> >want some jackass with his hand on the control lever manipulating
> >something he doesn't really understand and subject to the whims of
> >fashion. 
>  
> >Leave it to the wisdom of those in the financial sector - they have the 
> >track record, not a professional politician. Economies have developed for
> 
> >thousands of years. Globalisation is new and fine, but anything that 
> >slows the velocity of money is a good thing and gives people time to 
> >think before investing. Also with a patchwork of economies you won't get 
> >region wide busts.
> 
>     Efficient financial networks route money flows around attempts to slow
> the velocity of money.  So countries have two choices--make your financial
> services sector inefficient, or deal with fast money flows.
> 
>     The Pacific Rim had been counting on the first choice for
> decades--they
> just got blindsided badly.  Laws restricting currency flows in Hong Kong
> can't stop futures, etc. trading in New York or Tokyo.  So unless you have
> the ability to cut the country off from the rest of the world--Albania
> tried and failed--you have to exist in the global economy.  In the global
> economy, there is no such thing as a sovereign currency.  It is just one
> more financial instrument in the marketplace.  But when that market moves,
> it can hurt people who have debts or assets denominated in that currency.
> 
>     So for people, rich or poor, debtor or creditor, a more stable
> currency
> is a godsend.  The "larger" the currency, the more stable it is.  Europe
> has been trying to deal with the problem of "Eurodollars" for years--bonds
> issued in some European country where the interest and principle are paid
> in dollars.  This makes the local currency less stable, while increasing
> the stability of the dollar.  With the Euro, interest rates on Euro and
> dollar rated debt will be much closer.
> 
>     Note that trying to get the US into the Euro at the begining would
> never have worked.  The US had nothing to gain from the Euro succeeding.
> However, if/when the Euro succeeds, then it makes sense for the US and
> Europe to discuss alignment and eventually merger of the currencies.
> 
>                                         Robert I. Eachus
> 
> with Standard_Disclaimer;
> use  Standard_Disclaimer;
> function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 14:05:48 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12707;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:00:02 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:00:02 -0700
From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
Message-Id: <v03007803b1d962f52e9f [198.133.146.230]>
In-Reply-To: <199807181354.JAA04272 mercury.mv.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:27:04 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New Info on Mizuno-Ohmori Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"SCtw82.0.S63.H_wir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20729
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gene Mallove wrote:

>Food for thought! OK you back of the envelope people, go to it....
>
>1.  How much energy is required to melt that valued of W?

He had (0.5 cm^3 of W) times (roughly 3 joule/kelvin/cm^3) times (3400 K
melting point of W) = 5000 joule. Add a little more for the heat of fusion
(less than 10%, I believe).

>2. How long would one expect a molten sphere of W of that volume (all the
>above tungsten from the foil) to release energy to a potassium carbonate
>solution of 0.5 molar, before being quenched by the  heat loss due to
>radiation, convection, and conduction?

I don't know. At 3000 C the W drop immediatley gets surrounded by a layer
of water vapor (steam), which greatly reduces the thermal conduction from
that across liquid water. This is the same effect as seen when a drop of
water falls on a very hot plate and "floats" on a thin layer of steam
between the drop and the plate. The drop last much, much longer on the very
hot plate than on a plate at about 100 C. BTY, this vapor barrier condition
between water and a hot boiler tube must be avoided in boilers. Otherwise,
the boiler tube gets too hot, because it's not being cooled by the water
now isolated by a vapor film, and the tube melts. Back to the question, it
is to be expected that a 3000 C object in liquid water cools slowly at
first.

>3. How much energy transfer to melt a small crater in Pyrex while molten
>ball is underwater?

Pyrex and W have roughly the same specific heats per unit volume, while its
melting temperature is much lower, somewhere around 1000 C. So, the heat
required to melt that Pyrex, relative to the heat contained in molten W, is
the ratio of Pyrex volume to W volume times (1/3), the latter for 1000 C vs
3000 C. It looks like only a small fraction of the W thermal energy is
needed to melt the Pyrex.

>Suggested experiment: Drop a molten lead ball of the same size into the
>solution, compare how long its light lasts.

Molten lead vaporizes at about 1500 C, whereas W  MELTS at 3400 C. Not a
fair comparison.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 15:07:20 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04462;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:02:12 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:02:12 -0700
Message-ID: <19980720190829.2355.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:08:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Delta Air Lines Flight Information - Flight 1589 (http://java.delta-air.com/ser
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"Vkt7J3.0.e51.Zvxir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20730
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



I think we will be lucky if Europe gets both the Euro and Y2K fixes
done simultaneously.......They should put the the Euro off, and just
focus on Y2K.  If their computers choke on the century, then who needs
to fix them for a new currency?? ;)



==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 16:04:52 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10945;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:56:50 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:56:50 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:49:04 -0700
Message-Id: <199807202249.PAA07785 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Bye, Bye Big Bang.....Hello, ZPE etc!
Resent-Message-ID: <"RQktl1.0.og2.hiyir" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20731
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

The thing that is wrong is the way we approach fundamental physical thought.
Our current approach uses particles, fields, spacetime, mass, energy etc.,
and these all seem perfectly reasonable to everyone.  "How else could we
begin?" might be a logical question.  IMO, our present attribution of
"forces" to "particles" is the root of the problems we are faced with in
astro physics.   By this I mean that our present system of physics is as
arcane as was the Ptolemaic system where every time we discovered a new
"traveling star", aka a planet, we invented a new celestial sphere and
deduced a new set of equations to describe the motions of that new star
including it's retrograde motions against the background stars due to the
relative motion of earth and respective planet.  

Today, each time we discover a new way that matter is accelerated, we invent
a new "force".  Today based on recent findings in astro physics we are faced
with the inclusion of the cosmological constant in GR equations.  But this
is due to a very simple error that virtually no one has noticed.  If you
work with solitonic waves in place of particles, you no longer need to use
the idea "particle" or "field" as separate entities.  In place of both, you
have just the single wave form and it behaves like a wave because it is, and
it behaves like a particle because a smoke ring vortex (for example), is
like a particle if you are too far away to observe the detail of it's
structure.  Likewise, a tornado would be a particle to someone on the moon.

The trap that physicists are in below is that they do not anticipate that
the medium of those waveforms called particles is being emitted when H fuses
inside of stars.  And so they have no conception of the idea that "emtpy
space" can be flowing out of  stars.  Without that understanding, you have
lot's of things out there that are mysterious.

Below is the original article Gene posted, and I will append another blurb here.

However, in the article I appended, they didn't notice the seismic or
spacetime distortion that resulted due to the CME.  I don't know if we have
any instruments sensitive enough to monitor single burst spacetime
distortions yet, but we have finally observed the rocking of the earth due
to aether emission in waves with a power centered at 5 minutes period.  The
earth is being incessently rocked by the waves of aether heading out of the
sun because the earth is more like a jellyfish in an ocean surf than it is
like a rock in empty space.  

When LIGO is constructed, it may be possible to detect some of these single
waves as they pass the earth, but for now all we are able to monitor are
waveforms that are periodic because the earth is like a bell, and will ring
if you excite a natural mode of oscillation.  With luck, researchers are now
studying wind patterns and atmospheric phenomena that may be the source of
energy driving the earths ringing.  No one suspects the sun as far as I
know.  But the aether waves I am certain alter motions of lighter elements
more so than heavier elements.

Also, the atmosphere is free to react tidally to the aether waves setting up
waves that undulate the earths atmosphere periodically due to the
combination of pulsations departing the sun with the rotation of the earth.
These set up the undulations in the jet stream, their  precession across the
surface of the earth (when not perfectly frequency matched as a harmonic of
the earth's rotation) causes the ~20 mph advance of storms across the
surface, etc.  The point being, the geophysicists are presently faced with a
mystery they don't understand (and only learned about it last year, while I
told you about it two years ago).  And in trying to figure out the mystery
they are aware of, they are headed directly toward proving the concepts I
have been telling you about here at vor.

Have a good week.

Ross Tessien


A SUN-EARTH CONNECTION EVENT, in which a gust of
plasma particles (a coronal mass ejection) detaches from the Sun
and travels all the way to our planet, where it causes
electromagnetic disturbances and atmospheric auroras, has been
monitored from start to stop for the first time.  The International
Solar-Terrestrial Physics Observatory, a network of ground-based
and satellite detectors, watched the drama play out over the period
January 6-11, 1997. The absence then of notable surface features on
the Sun, such as flares, reinforces the notion that coronal rather
than surface activity is more important for determining near-Earth
space storms.  (Several articles in the July issue of Geophysical
Research Letters.)

******************************


>So, there is something new under and beyond the Sun ....
>Gene Mallove
>>From Science-Week, July 17:
>
>COSMOLOGY: THE END OF THE OLD MODEL UNIVERSE
>Cosmologists are apparently expecting the near-future necessity
>for profound conceptual alterations in their field. Peter Coles
>(University of London, UK) presents a short review of the current
>situation and makes the following points: 1) Observations only
>recently made possible by improvements in astronomical
>instrumentation have put theoretical models of the Universe under
>intense pressure. The standard ideas of the 1980s about the shape
>and history of the Universe have now been abandoned -- and
>cosmologists are now taking seriously the possibility that the
>Universe is pervaded by some sort of "vacuum energy" whose origin
>is not at all understood. 2) The weakness of the Big Bang model
>is that the numerical values of certain essential parameters in
>the model (the Hubble constant, the density parameter, and, in
>some versions, the cosmological constant) are not predicted by
>theory, and thus the parameters must be inferred from
>observations. 3) The Big Bang model does not deserve to be called
>a "theory" unless and until it can explain how nonuniformities of
>galaxies and clusters of galaxies came into being and evolved. 4)
>The Cold Dark Matter model of structure formation, first proposed
>in the 1980s, is in serious difficulty because the consequent
>significant gravitational break on expansion is not evident, and
>in fact expansion may be accelerating. Current observations
>coupled with current dynamical arguments all suggest a global
>density of matter in the Universe less than the value required to
>make the Universe recollapse. 5) The existence of a cosmological
>constant (or vacuum energy) of the required size necessary to
>make the basic cosmological models work is not at all explained
>by current theories of the fundamental interactions of matter. 6)
>There is every reason to be confident that the important issues
>will soon be resolved, because a data explosion is about to
>engulf cosmology, a new generation of galaxy surveys. The Sloan
>Digital Sky Survey, for example, will encompass more than a
>million galaxies. The cosmological community is bracing itself
>for the arrival of these enormous new data sets and the new
>insights they will surely bring. 7) It is possible that none of
>the available models will fit all the new data. Coles concludes:
>"For many of us, that is the most exciting possibility of all, as
>we would have to move to stranger theories, perhaps not even
>based on General Relativity."
>QY: Peter Coles <p.coles qmw.ac.uk>
>(Nature 25 Jun 98 393:741) (Science-Week 17 Jul 98)
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 16:03:53 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22597;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:55:22 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:55:22 -0700
Message-ID: <35B36871.3AEC pacbell.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:55:29 +0000
From: Frank Chilton <fchltn pacbell.net>
Reply-To: fchltn pacbell.net
Organization: ME
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-PBWG  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: Scott Little <little eden.com>, Hal Puthoff <Puthoff@aol.com>
Subject: Proceeding Carefully in O/U and Alternative Power
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="vrtxL1.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="vrtxL1.txt"
Resent-Message-ID: <"CW8tI.0.oW5.Phyir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20732
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: A

	Hal, I am sending this to you first.  I want your advice on whether the Vortex-L crowd appears to want to benefit from experience.  And I want your opinion on whether you want to be mentioned so favorably.
		-------------------------------
	The various stories of doubts and disappointments with motors and other experiments on Vortex-L cause me to want to alert those, who want to be alerted, by generally describing about a dozen experiences where I was called in as consultant over many years
.
	To simplify I will only describe motor cases.   Calorimetry for power measurement in CF, chemical and nuclear experiments is extremely important, but it is much more complicated to describe what can go amiss.  Motors are simpler, thus clearer to specify 
what often goes wrong.
	Measuring Power-IN vs. Power-OUT is not trivial, no matter how smart and well educated you think you are.  The Power-IN usually requires an invertor which uses pulse width modulation (or some related pulse power choice) and contains frequencies up to and
 exceeding 20 KHz.  Very few, and they are very expensive, power meters can measure that broad spectrum
of Power-IN accurately.  Regular power meters severely UNDERMEASURE the Power-IN.  Power-OUT can be accurately measured with a dynamometer, if it is carefully calibrated.  Notice however that two very different kinds of power peasurements are being made. 
 One is broad spectrum electronic power and the other is mechanical power.  I have seen errors of as much as factors of 10 in mistaken O/U claims, even by Electrical Engineers (whose past experience caused them to not fully appreciate the broad spectrum p
ower)!
	Now business-related problems can multiply quickly after an O/U claim because lots of R&D money is usually raised based on O/U claims.  Nontechnical people invest readily because it sounds wonderfully profitable and hi-tech.  The inventor finds himself m
otivated to keep claiming that he has achieved O/U because otherwise no more money can be raised.  In the meantime he keeps trying to give demonstrations, but can not fix the problem because it was due to mismeasurement in the beginning.  Usually the comp
any's technical staff turns over rapidly as each comes to realize what is going on.
	For a while the investors are happy because the motor development company operates at a loss and the R&D Tax credits, plus the regular tax credits, can actually give them a net annual profit on their investment.
	After a few years of R&D operation, with little or no sales, the IRS takes notice and Tax Fraud investigations of the company and its investors begin.  Meanwhile the inventor's reputation drops steadily as no one can verify his claims.  In fact, the orig
inal mismeasurement's gained funds have motivated the inventor to gradually change from a presumably ethically motivated person and to become a fraudulent person in order to keep his project funded, continuing and dreams alive.
	For a motor,  the best and simplest way to prove O/U is to build two of them with the second motor operated as a generator.  Then you can use Licensed and Calibrated Utility Power Meters to measure the 60 Hz power into the entire system and the 60 Hz pow
er out of the entire system.  Thus there is no chance of misunderstanding or mistrust of the measurement methods.  Any O/U accomplishment is then very clear, even more clear than with a dynamometer as a load.  Mismeasurement is not probable.
	The acceptable proof in R&D is to have another, well recognized experimenter, verify your results.  People interested in O/U and related alternative power generation do have an extraordinary opportunity for verification.  Hal Puthoff, who is very well re
cognized and also accepting of unusual ideas, an infrequent combination, has offered that he and Scott Little will ON THEIR OWN FUNDS AND EQUIPMENT verify potential O/U and selected new-principle alternative power generation experiments. 	Why not protect 
yourself from later tragedies by asking for verification early?
Frank Chilton

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 16:29:04 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14390;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:20:30 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:20:30 -0700 (PDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: sh.diac.com: ekwall2 owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:05:14 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
To: Vortex-L <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC, Deformed Frogs , Asthma Near Epidemic and Oxygenated Fuels.
In-Reply-To: <007c01bdaedd$5cc287e0$e7b4bfa8 default>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980713235306.1294E-100000 sh.diac.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"c-k2V1.0.mW3.y2zir" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20733
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
snip .. OCTANE BOOSTERS.

MTBE, ETHANOL, and METHANOL, all are WATER SOLUBLE and can produce WATER
SOLUBLE ALDEHYDES
when burned.

Frogs breathe through their skin. OUR BRONCHIAL TUBES and LUNGS are SKIN.

Regards,    Frederick

-------------------------------------
Hi Fred, 
  You couldn't be insinuating that our 'blessed government' is .. 
Hold on TWO guys knocking at the door... more later ;)
2543^                          2$@@ 2
f\3VTc
killall
stop
end
terminate
x
.
quit  
     (bang)
 ^
   \   :    /--/
    \  :  /
--\/-((  ))_/-----
    /  :  \ 
  /    :    \  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 16:36:07 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02189;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:29:59 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:29:59 -0700
X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Wild(?) question on zero point field
Message-Id: <19980720232951.LFVP18293 Default>
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:29:51 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"O1Z7j.0.2Y.sBzir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20734
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


>Could the zero point field meet the requirements for this
>thing that people call "God".
>
Of course, ZPE could be mere manifestation (subset, if we wish to be boolean
about it).

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 17:18:18 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17844;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:10:12 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:10:12 -0700
Message-ID: <002901bdb43b$5e576d60$deb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC, Deformed Frogs , Asthma Near Epidemic and Oxygenated Fuels.
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:06:06 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"WT0MT.0.jM4.Znzir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20735
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
To: Vortex-L <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Monday, July 20, 1998 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC, Deformed Frogs , Asthma Near Epidemic and Oxygenated
Fuels.

Only Two Guys, Steve?  The Keystone Cops work in larger groups.  :-)

Frederick


>On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>snip .. OCTANE BOOSTERS.
>
>MTBE, ETHANOL, and METHANOL, all are WATER SOLUBLE and can produce WATER
>SOLUBLE ALDEHYDES
>when burned.
>
>Frogs breathe through their skin. OUR BRONCHIAL TUBES and LUNGS are SKIN.
>
>Regards,    Frederick
>
>-------------------------------------
>Hi Fred,
>  You couldn't be insinuating that our 'blessed government' is ..
>Hold on TWO guys knocking at the door... more later ;)
>2543^                          2$@@ 2
>f\3VTc
>killall
>stop
>end
>terminate
>x
>.
>quit
>     (bang)
> ^
>   \   :    /--/
>    \  :  /
>--\/-((  ))_/-----
>    /  :  \
>  /    :    \
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 17:19:49 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18689;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:13:58 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:13:58 -0700
Message-ID: <35B3CD2C.7B96 skylink.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:05:16 -0700
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Longitudinal Wave of Dipole Antenna
References: <v03007805b1d00c5f85a7 [198.133.146.230]>	
	 <v03007807b1d131a46cb7 [198.133.146.230]>
	 <v03007808b1d285af5115 [198.133.146.230]> <v03007802b1d953eba61b@[198.133.146.230]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"yeSoI1.0.qZ4.4rzir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20736
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:
> No, B_theta has a finite, non-zero derivative on the axis, even though
> B_theta itself is zero everywhere on axis. Work it
> out---d(B_theta)/d(theta). Also, work out div B and see for yourself how
> B_theta contributes to it. It's not so hard to do, and it's very
> educational.

Yes, a good mathematical excercise. None the less, it is also simple 
enough to see geometrically that no other flux line can ever link 
with the flux line on the polar axis, neither any other B_radial or 
B_theta flux line. The flux line on the polar axis can not form a 
closed loop except at infinity, and it can of course never get there. 
Furthermore, the flux line on the polar axis is bipolar and travelling 
away from the source. 

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 18:06:06 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29409;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:01:36 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:01:36 -0700
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:01:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Frank Chilton <fchltn@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Proceeding Carefully in O/U and Alternative Power
In-Reply-To: <35B36871.3AEC pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980720170313.24861F-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"6P7HX2.0.OB7.lX-ir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20737
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Frank Chilton wrote:

> 	Now business-related problems can multiply quickly after an O/U
> claim because lots of R&D money is usually raised based on O/U claims. 
> Nontechnical people invest readily because it sounds wonderfully
> profitable and hi-tech.  The inventor finds himself motivated to keep
> claiming that he has achieved O/U because otherwise no more money can be
> raised.  In the meantime he keeps trying to give demonstrations, but can
> not fix the problem because it was due to mismeasurement in the
> beginning.  Usually the company's technical staff turns over rapidly as
> each comes to realize what is going on. 

This sounds about right.  Feynman mentions just this issue in "Cargo Cult
Science": ethics requires that a scientist debunk his/her own discovery.
Progress requires brutal self-honesty, and the greatest enemy is not the
skeptical outsider, but the tendency to lie to ourselves.  I suspect that
this is one main difference between science and invention.  Scientists
(hopefully) grow up in a culture where everyone dreads that others will
find their flaw, so they try to find the flaw first.  The goal is to
explore the world, and so it becomes necessary to practice extreme honesty
in verifying that new discoveries aren't self-delusion.

In the inventor's culture, knowledge is not the main goal, and peers act
far more like cut-throat competitors than they do in science.  Inventors
don't want to spread their discoveries to other inventors so that errors
can be found and valid new ideas can benefit all.  Marketing always
involves stretching the truth, and so it's not hard for the cycle of lies
Mr. Chilton mentions to take hold.  Maintaining severe self-criticism is
bad for business.  Frequently the competitors DO want to trash discoveries
regardless of merit, and so when outsiders point out flaws, their goal
might not be to help eliminate the inventor's self-delusion.  It might not
be wise for an inventor to listen to criticism.  But then where can they
go to hear a painful truth?

Science is suppsed to be ethical, yet many of the above problems are part
of science too.  Competition for tight funding causes just the same
temptation to hide new discoveries and to be suspicious of peers.  Ego
issues can draw us into massive self-delusion, and outsiders who discover
the flaws might have hidden agendas and so not be trustworthy.

One place where the problems are reduced: the amateur arena.  Here the
high-purity science ethics can be more easily maintained if employment and
funding does not hinge on APPEARING to make progress.  Criticism from
peers can often be accepted at face value.  Unlike with current science
and invention, the "gentleman-scientist" (of either sex) is still in the
running.  And as far as o/u physics is concerned, I think the
"gentleman-scientist" has a greatly improved chance at making real
progress, as long as they don't rush off and turn into a typical inventor
or scientist the moment they find something interesting. 

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 19:30:19 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16858;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:22:47 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:22:47 -0700
Message-ID: <35B3F4C9.9704456F GroupZ.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:54:17 -0400
From: sno <sno GroupZ.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Wild(?) question on zero point field
References: <19980720232951.LFVP18293 Default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"lKpsb1.0.F74.sj_ir" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20738
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Why not the whole thing?  Since everything else is probably
made of of zpf then everything would be subset....steve opelc

Ed Wall wrote:
> 
> >Could the zero point field meet the requirements for this
> >thing that people call "God".
> >
> Of course, ZPE could be mere manifestation (subset, if we wish to be boolean
> about it).

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 20 20:47:09 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28450;
	Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:43:43 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:43:43 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35B3AB1C.6705 pacbell.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:39:56 +0000
From: Frank Chilton <fchltn pacbell.net>
Reply-To: fchltn pacbell.net
Organization: ME
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-PBWG  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Proceeding Carefully in O/U and Alternative Power
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980720170313.24861F-100000 eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"-kOPm1.0.Qy6.iv0jr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20739
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

William Beaty wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Frank Chilton wrote:  ... SNIP

> This sounds about right.  Feynman mentions just this issue in "Cargo Cult ... SNIP
> I suspect that
> this is one main difference between science and invention.  ...SNIP
> In the inventor's culture, knowledge is not the main goal, and peers act
> far more like cut-throat competitors than they do in science.  Inventors
> don't want to spread their discoveries to other inventors so that >errors
> can be found and valid new ideas can benefit all.  Marketing always
> involves stretching the truth...SNIP 
> Science is suppsed to be ethical, yet many of the above problems are >part
> of science too.  Competition for tight funding causes just the same
> temptation to hide new discoveries and to be suspicious of peers.  Ego
> issues can draw us into massive self-delusion...SNIP
> 
> One place where the problems are reduced: the amateur arena.  Here the
> high-purity science ethics can be more easily maintained if employment and
> funding does not hinge on APPEARING to make progress...SNIP
> And as far as o/u physics is concerned, I think the
> "gentleman-scientist" has a greatly improved chance at making real
> progress, as long as they don't rush off and turn into a typical inventor
> or scientist the moment they find something interesting.
> 
	I think that your remarks are remarkably perceptive.  Until WWII, and
the RADAR and Manhattan Projects initiated BIG SCIENCE most scientists
and many inventors were necessarily gentlemen-scientists or
gentlemen-inventors.
	One had to have an independent way of supporting oneself.  Most British
scientists of the last century had some title, estate or regular job to
support them.  So when they worked on science they chose only those
topics which were most meaningful and interesting to themselves and
therefore usually fundamental indeed.  Likewise inventors had to have an
independent way to  support themselves and were only able to use their
invention for support well after it clearly worked.
	I have had my Ph.D. for 38+ years, and due to liking to choose many
different interesting topics upon which to work sequentially, while
still understanding  the need to gain some kind of university,
industrial or government support for myself and coworkers, have tried to
keep the gentlemen-scientist tradition alive, or at least always in
mind.  During that time I have opportunity to observe a lot of selfish
abuses and much less generous contributions.  Today's earlier
observations describe one class of such selfishness.  It takes a lot of
courage to be unselfish and ethically self-assessing.
FmC

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 01:46:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA16932;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 01:43:13 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 01:43:13 -0700
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:41:45 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Off topic] Euro, dismal science
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980720142754.01a8fb00 spectre.mitre.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980721093400.25186A-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"B-Pyo3.0.U84.XI5jr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20740
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Robert I. Eachus wrote:

>     The Pacific Rim had been counting on the first choice for decades--they
> just got blindsided badly.  Laws restricting currency flows in Hong Kong
> it can hurt people who have debts or assets denominated in that currency.
> 
>     So for people, rich or poor, debtor or creditor, a more stable currency
> is a godsend.  The "larger" the currency, the more stable it is.  Europe

Let's drop this because it's getting boring. The failure of the p.r. 
econs. was due to cronyism and bad loans mediated at the government level.

A currency becomes large ie popular by choice. Not some artificial construct.
Many 'backup' currencies avoid region wide busts.

I say again: the mandarins who want to run everybody's life for them - 
that certain ivy-league/oxbridge crowd, what have they done/achieved. The 
world does actually turn on its axis without their input.

These professional politicians can go away and dream up all manner of 
systems (its about as productive as masturbation, only the jerk is 
fooling himself) but they must not *conspire* to get their idiot ideas on 
the world stage.

Enough of this thread. Those people never learn. They gave the world 80 
years of marxism and the third world is still paying the price.

Stuff liberalism!
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 02:09:30 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA18792;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:04:55 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:04:55 -0700
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:03:28 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Proceeding Carefully in O/U and Alternative Power
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980720170313.24861F-100000 eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980721100025.25186B-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"hTlOs3.0.Yb4.tc5jr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20741
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Well said, Bill and Chinton! Inventors are their own worst enemy and so to
Scientists worried about qudos. 

Establish the principles or key repeatable experiments by which these 
things are going to work and forget all the damn secrecy and politics. 
After you have established these, the rest is engineering and business.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 05:43:08 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA02202;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 05:39:20 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 05:39:20 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35B48BFB.8440F6F css.mot.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:39:23 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Discussion Group - Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: How Do You Argue With This Logic?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"lOEXf3.0.FY.sl8jr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20742
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

A news item this morning.   ROFL...

Clinton says U.S. heat wave demonstrates global warming

      The issue of global warming has suddenly become a personal one for
President
      Clinton, whose four-day visit to the South has been marked by a ferocious
      summer heat wave. "As you can see from this sweltering heat ... the vice
president
      (Al Gore) is right: the climate of our country and our globe is changing.
The globe
      is warming," Clinton told the American Federation of Teachers in New
Orleans.
      Clinton counted global warming as one of the major challenges facing the
U.S. in
      the 21st century. Temperatures in New Orleans were forecast to hit 93
degrees
      Fahrenheit Monday. Clinton spent the weekend in his native Arkansas where
      temperatures hit 100 degrees Fahrenheit. 

Don't look at me, I didn't vote for him. ha ha ha


John E. Steck
--------------------------------o]{:
  Senior Mechanical Engineer
  Rapid Tooling Applications
  Motorola PCS, Libertyville

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 06:21:49 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA07630;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 06:12:07 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 06:12:07 -0700
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:10:38 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: How Do You Argue With This Logic
In-Reply-To: <35B48BFB.8440F6F css.mot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980721134614.28678A-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"_PtGZ2.0.0t1.cE9jr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20743
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John,

There's a saying: one swallow doesn't make a summer.

We are having a lousy summer in Britain. We had a few days of v.hot 
weather that ended yesterday. In the seventies they were talking about 
another ice-age.

I'm sorry, there's a conspiracy going on by people who like big government
because they deal in cliques, favours and kick-backs. It's another way to
tax what you enjoy. Get an accountant and they'd tell you more than 60% of
your income goes to these government cronies. 

Come on! What kind of deal is that? Some mysterious agency takes a cut of 
anything you do in life - and its getting worse.

Just remember: 
It's you who's out of step
You have the problem 
Nobody else is complaining
You are the misfit. (Look misfit, you want the vote or rights, shuddup and 
 take our line) (Just think how unions negotiate) 
Oh, you're one of those gun nuts 
Oh, you don't care about people, you're one of those extreme capitalists, 
 you'd have people sleeping in the street
You're a facist
You're a racist
You're an elitist 
You're a Darwinist
You're a bigot
and on and on....

Stifle the debate: The other side are crazys and just not worth listening to.
(Where have I seen this before, duh, huh?)

I don't think either side can have claimed to have mastered multi-million 
variable non-linear dynamic system analysis *but* if you don't understand 
something - let it alone. Concentrate on progressive take up of new 
green technology. Don't force people by legistration and taxation 'cos it 
just a trick to get more money/freedom out of you. Let people freely 
developed these technologies without being kicked in the ghoulies by the 
state subsidised universities and then let then sell them on by free 
enterprise.

Boycott big government,
Use you vote and brain while you still have both,
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 07:22:17 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA17016;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:13:44 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:13:44 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980721101848.01abf1d0 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:18:48 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Delta Air Lines Flight Information - Flight 1589
  (http://java.delta-air.com/ser
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <19980720190829.2355.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"QTqlY3.0.j94.N8Ajr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20744
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 12:08 PM 7/20/98 -0700, Anton Rager wrote:
>I think we will be lucky if Europe gets both the Euro and Y2K fixes
>done simultaneously.......They should put the the Euro off, and just
>focus on Y2K.  If their computers choke on the century, then who needs
>to fix them for a new currency?? ;)

     Actually, wrong thinking.  The biggest cost of dealing with the Y2K
issue is testing--probably more than 80% of the cost.  So if you need to
retest all your software anyway, might as well make two changes as just one.

     If the work needed to adapt to the Euro, or to deal with Y2K was much
more significant, then it would make sense to split the work.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 07:28:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA18174;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:20:52 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:20:52 -0700
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:21:10 +0100 (BST)
Message-Id: <199807211421.PAA29924 popmail.dircon.co.uk>
X-Sender: dominic popmail.dircon.co.uk
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Dominic Murphy <dominic popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Off topic] Euro, dismal science
Resent-Message-ID: <"7qmUM2.0.tR4.4FAjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20745
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


The problem with a single currency is that it reduces the flexibility of
nation states to respond locally to economic conditions.  If Frankfurt is
frightened of inflation and Madrid needs to reduce unemployment, the Euro
will get in the way. 

Look at it this way.  Currently the European nations can be viewed as a
number of small boats close together on the sea.  When the waves (trade
cycle) come through they are able to ride them.  If you lash them all
together  they will grind on one another and damage will be done.

The Euro is a step towards a single European state, in the hope that we will
avoid further European armed conflict.  I fear that the centralisation will
cause such friction that the opposite will be the consequence.  Look at all
the hassle that the USA had to go through in the 1860's to centralise
political power!

What we really need is OU, so we can get off the planet.  The world has got
too small for us.  Making its existing economic control systems more
centralised and rigid is..er..an un-good idea.
Dominic Murphy
44+ (0)181 580 2715
0973 886770 (mobile)
dominic dircon.co.uk

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 08:01:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA09099;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:52:43 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:52:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Wild(?) question on zero point field
Message-Id: <19980721143944.CODM5551 Default>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:39:44 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"GcXQj.0.1E2.viAjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20746
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tautology at best.  No definitions, only descriptions of ZPE are known.
Even basic attributes as cutoff frequency are not verified.  IF ZPF is the
Materia Prima (Latin female), what (or who) has the volition to form?
Ultimate sources are not defined by QM.

>Why not the whole thing?  Since everything else is probably
>made of of zpf then everything would be subset....steve opelc
>
>Ed Wall wrote:
>> 
Steve Opelc wrote:
>> >Could the zero point field meet the requirements for this
>> >thing that people call "God".
>> >
>> Of course, ZPE could be mere manifestation (subset, if we wish to be boolean
>> about it).
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 08:00:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA22957;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:52:32 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:52:32 -0700
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:49:34 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Scott Little on Case
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807211052_MC2-53B6-1A2C compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"TuC-d2.0.Zc5.miAjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20747
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

I said there would be no point to sending the Case cell to Scott Little now,
since Case himself cannot make it self sustain. Scott Little responded:

     Plenty of point as far as I can see.  We have a standing invitation to
     Dr. Case to visit EarthTech with his original apparatus for a free
     calorimetric measurement of it.  If we obtain positive results with such
     a measurement it will provide an enormous amount of enthusiasm for
     further pursuit of the Case phenomenon.

If you obtain positive results, but the cell still cannot self sustain, that
proves you made a mistake too. I cannot imagine how that would happen . . .
but that would be the only meaningful interpretation. I suppose this is an
interesting way to test EarthTech equipment, but there must be easier, cheaper
ways.


     If we obtain a negative result (i.e. a unity power balance)...while Case
     still observes his temperature anomaly...it will prove that the Case
     phenomenon is nothing but a temperature anomaly.

A failed self sustaining test will prove it is nothing but a temperature
anomaly. It will prove that more convincingly than any calorimetric technique
can do. Furthermore, we sometimes lose sight of the fact that the only
practical reason to do this research is to *make a self-sustaining machine*.
That's the alpha and omega of this field. It is the only thing worth doing,
and the only activity which will lead to funding. A practical machine must be
self-sustaining, by definition. That is the long term goal and I think it
should also be the immediate goal whenever possible. I would like to see less
focus on details, and much less attention to precision and accuracy, and more
attention paid to making an indisputable self-sustaining demonstration.


     The self-sustainer was a short-cut around this procedure.  If it has
     fallen upon technical difficulties there is still everything to be
     learned from a calorimetric measurement of his original device.

I would not call it a short-cut, I would call it the be all, end all,
definitive test, far superior to any other. Calorimetry is at best equivalent
to wind-tunnel test. Self sustaining is the full scale flight test. The
outcome is indisputable: either you fly or you crash -- there are no gray
areas, no in-between, disputable outcomes. (Except that in real life a
marginal result might be disputed, such a tiny heat flux in heat after death,
or an uncontrolled hop in a flight test.)

I doubt the lessons one could learn from the original device would be worth an
airplane trip. I would never bother! If the thing refuses to self sustain
after a few months, I can summarize the lessons now:

1. Calibrate, calibrate, CALIBRATE! Don't rely on a single comparison between
hydrogen and deuterium, at one temperature or one narrow range of
temperatures. I suspect that if Case calibrates many power levels for hydrogen
and deuterium, he will be able to draw two lines that diverge in an orderly
fashion. If he adjusts for the known increased heat losses at higher
temperatures, and he sees the divergence begin at low temperatures, say 30 to
100 deg C, that would prove there is no excess heat anomaly triggered by high
cell temperatures. A little calibration data would tell us a great deal about
the Case cell. Unfortunately, there is no calibration data. I have been
nagging Case about this for some time.

2. With a gas cell, use a standard, sophisticated method, like a flow
calorimeter or better yet a Seebeck envelope calorimeter.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 08:03:57 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10504;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:01:37 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:01:37 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:49:23 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Proceeding Carefully in O/U . . .
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807211052_MC2-53B6-1A2B compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"SJv-q.0.zZ2.ErAjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20748
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Frank Chilton's comments are right on the mark. I know nothing about tax
credits and I cannot fathom the psychology of the inventors, but I would add
two practical points:

1. You can eliminate many o-u candidates by asking the inventors to submit to
third-party independent verification. Most will refuse. A few motor inventors
have agreed, but so far they have failed to show up. As Chilton puts it, "Why
not protect yourself from later tragedies by asking for verification early?"
Early is not soon enough. Ask for this *first*, before you spend ten minutes
on the telephone with the inventor. Demand it. I would not invest a dime or
take a trip to see an inventor who refuses to allow proper testing. A few of
them have told me that conventional testing techniques will show a null, you
have to use the techniques they invented. I do not buy that!!!

2. Because measuring electric power in and out is not trivial, and because so
much can go wrong, you should select a foolproof method that does not depend
upon measurements: make the machine self-sustaining.

So far, nobody has been able to make a self-sustaining electric machine as far
as I know. CF devices in heat after death and gas loaded CF devices are self
sustaining. They have been reported by many credible observers, so I have no
doubt they exist. Self-sustaining does away with complexity and practically
eliminates the need to measure input or output, so long as stored energy is
not an issue. When you turn off the power on a blank cold fusion cell, the
temperature drops immediately, according to Newton's law, and it never rises.
See Pons and Fleischmann's equations and graphs in "Heat after Death." With
heat after death, the temperature may fall, but it then *rises*, steadies,
fluctuates, and hours or days later it remains hot. There can be no
significant release of chemical energy from these cells, and no stored energy,
since they have already produced massive excess before the event begins, so
this can only be anomalous energy, and there can be no question about
mismeasuring input.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 08:38:47 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15831;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:31:08 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:31:08 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <00da01bdb4ba$f18e6640$deb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: CNN - John Glenn Rides Again (http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9807/15/glenn.skept
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:19:00 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BDB488.98CF0D20"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"5vZ-g3.0.Et3.vGBjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20749
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BDB488.98CF0D20
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Far Out, but how far?   :-)

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9807/15/glenn.skeptics/index.html

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BDB488.98CF0D20
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="CNN - John Glenn Rides Again.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="CNN - John Glenn Rides Again.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9807/15/glenn.skeptics/index.html
Modified=00EAB4B9BAB4BD0183

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BDB488.98CF0D20--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 08:43:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17443;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:38:46 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:38:46 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <00e201bdb4bb$fbe1b880$deb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Cc: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Off Topic, Musgrave on NASA's Space Station
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:26:43 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"t2UJz.0.TG4.1OBjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20750
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Musgrave; They've 14 years and $20 Billion on it and they still don't have a
screw in orbit".

Oh, Boy! They need to talk to Billy Clinton about that!   :-)

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 09:40:50 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28107;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980721123423.01aadb00 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:34:23 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: [Very off topic] Euro, dismal science
In-Reply-To: <199807211421.PAA29924 popmail.dircon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"h1xJz.0.5t6.EFCjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20751
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 03:21 PM 7/21/98 +0100, Dominic Murphy wrote:

>The problem with a single currency is that it reduces the flexibility of
>nation states to respond locally to economic conditions.  If Frankfurt is
>frightened of inflation and Madrid needs to reduce unemployment, the Euro
>will get in the way. 

   Wrong!  Look back 200 years to when things really did run on a gold
standard.  Local currencies existed, but that only changed whose picture
was on the (gold and silver) coins.

   What happened back then?  Inflation and unemployment moved in lockstep.
In between we had a period when inflation and unemployment moved at very
different rates due to employment policies.   We are now back to a
situation where the effects of bad government still move at different
rates, but if inflation hits immediately, unemployment is a week or two
behind and vice-versa.  They both have the same cause, and they both have
the same cure.  It just took eighty years for the central bankers to
understand that.

    (Translation: Central banks can't create wealth, they can only destroy
it, by creating artifical interest rates which don't reflect the real cost
and value of money.  If interest rates are too high, employment falls and
inflation follows.  If interest rates are too low, prices go up, and
unemployment follows.  The only policy that works is to attempt to keep the
amount of money available in sync with actual wealth.  John Manyard Kenyes
understood this, but lots of people who called themselves Kenyesians had no
clue what they were doing.  Kenyes said that you should follow the correct
monetary policy even if it meant that the government showed a deficit,
since raising taxes or interest rates would just create more unemployment.
Kenyesians said that you should run a deficit to reduce unemployment.)

    In the context of this discussion, you can't lower interest rates in
Madrid and not have Germans come there to borrow.  The Euro won't change
that.  All it will mean is that ruinious distortions caused by such
currency flows are no longer a problem.

    If Volkswagenwerke is willing to pay more for money than anyone in
Spain, the work will flow to Germany.  Happens now, will happen in the future.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 10:39:28 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06895;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:31:19 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:31:19 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35B4CE7C.12EEBA49 GroupZ.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:23:08 -0400
From: sno <sno GroupZ.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Wild(?) question on zero point field
References: <19980721143944.CODM5551 Default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"1xL-h.0.ah1.a1Djr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20752
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Back to original question, given practically infinite time, 
and infinite complexity, would/could intelligence arise on
its own?
The thousand monkey thing......like I said something to think
about....steve opelc


Ed Wall wrote:
> 
> Tautology at best.  No definitions, only descriptions of ZPE are known.
> Even basic attributes as cutoff frequency are not verified.  IF ZPF is the
> Materia Prima (Latin female), what (or who) has the volition to form?
> Ultimate sources are not defined by QM.
> 
> >Why not the whole thing?  Since everything else is probably
> >made of of zpf then everything would be subset....steve opelc
> >
> >Ed Wall wrote:
> >>
> Steve Opelc wrote:
> >> >Could the zero point field meet the requirements for this
> >> >thing that people call "God".
> >> >
> >> Of course, ZPE could be mere manifestation (subset, if we wish to be boolean
> >> about it).
> >
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 13:35:11 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22041;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:18:14 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:18:14 -0700
Message-ID: <010301bdb4e4$0e69cd80$deb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
Cc: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: United States Patent 5,270,127 (http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:01:18 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01BDB4B0.085E8D60"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"-__eU2.0.-N5.5UFjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20754
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BDB4B0.085E8D60
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=20

[USPTO]=20
      ( 2 of 17 )=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
United States Patent  5,270,127=20
            Koga, et. al. Dec. 14, 1993=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Plate shift converter Inventors:  Koga; Minoru (Kawasaki, JP); Kawakami; =
Souichirou (Narashino, JP); Mizusawa; Minoru (Yokahoma, JP). =20
            Assignee:  Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries Co., Ltd. =
(Tokyo, JP). =20
            Appl. No.:  910,817=20
            Filed:  Jul. 9, 1992=20
   =20

Foreign Application Priority Data
Aug. 9, 1991 [JP]  3-223597=20
            Aug. 12, 1991 [JP]  3-225383=20
   =20
Intl. Cl. :  H01M 8/04, H01M 8/18=20
            Current U.S. Cl.:  429/17; 422/173; 422/174; 422/177; =
429/19; 429/20; 429/26=20
            Field of Search:  429/17, 20, 19, 26; 422/173, 174, 177=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

References Cited | [Referenced By]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

U.S. Patent Documents
4,933,242 Jun., 1990 Koga et al. 429/19=20
            5,015,444 May, 1991 Koga et al. 472/195=20
   =20

Foreign Patent Documents
0429958 Jun., 1991 EP =20
            0430184 Jun., 1991 EP =20
            1553361 Jan., 1969 FR =20
            63-291802 Nov., 1988 JP =20
            2-80301 Mar., 1990 JP =20
   =20
    Other References
    Patent Abstracts of Japan, vol. 14, No. 270(C-727) (4313), 12 Jun. =
1990 (JPA 2-80 301).=20

    Patent Abstracts of Japan, vol. 13, No. 119(C-579) (3467) 23 Mar. =
1989 (JPA 63-291, 802).=20

    Chemical Abstracts 110:234633a, 26 Jun. 1989 (JPA 63-291, 802).=20


Primary Examiner: Gorgos; Kathryn
Attorney, Agent or Firm: Trexler, Bushnell, Giangiorgi & Blackstone

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Abstract

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

A plate type shift converter comprises a stack of alternately piled =
shift reactor plates and cooling plates and various gas intake and =
exhaust manifolds mounted on lateral faces of the stack. Each shift =
reactor plate includes a plate member, a masking frame provided along =
the periphery of the plate member, a gas entrance formed in the masking =
frame, a gas exit formed at a location opposite the gas entrance in the =
masking frame and a shift catalyst located in the masking frame. Each =
cooling plate includes a plate member, a masking frame provided along =
the periphery of the plate member, a gas entrance formed in the masking =
frame, a gas exit formed at a location opposite the second gas entrance =
in the masking frame and a fin plate located in the masking frame. When =
gases are introduced to the shift reactor plate, the gases undergo the =
CO shift reaction (exothermic reaction) as they flow contacting the =
shift catalyst. At the same time, the gases are cooled by the cooling =
plates which sandwich the flow of the gases or sandwich the shift =
reactor plate.=20


25 Claims, 13 Drawing Figures

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

[USPTO]=20
      ( 2 of 17 )=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------


------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BDB4B0.085E8D60
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>United States Patent =
5,270,127</TITLE><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+7403+4=
+3+319198+OF+2+17+1+%22Shift+Catalyst%22><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><A name=3Dtop></A>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/help/help.html"><IMG =
alt=3D[Help]=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/help.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/index.html"><IMG alt=3D[Home] =
border=3D0 height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/home.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-bool.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Boolean Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/boolean.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-adv.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D[Advanced] border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/advanced.gif" =
width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-num.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Number Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/number.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptcs/"><IMG =
alt=3D"[Order Copy]"=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/copy.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptdl/"><IMG alt=3D[PTDLs] border=3D0 =
height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/ptdl.gif" width=3D63></A> </CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> </CENTER>
<TABLE border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+7403+=
4+-1+-1+OF+1+17+1+%22Shift+Catalyst%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Previous Patent]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/prev.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+7403+=
4+-1+-1+OF+3+17+1+%22Shift+Catalyst%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Next Patent]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/next.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilist4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+7403+1=
7+OF+1+4+%22Shift+Catalyst%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Back to List]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/list.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dbottom width=3D500><FONT size=3D-1>(=20
            <STRONG>2</STRONG></FONT> <FONT size=3D-2>of</FONT> =
<STRONG><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>17</STRONG> )</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>

<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>United States Patent </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>5,270,127</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>Koga, et. al.</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>Dec. 14, =
1993</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>
<B>Plate shift converter </B>
<TABLE>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Inventors: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Koga; Minoru</B> (Kawasaki, JP); =
<B>Kawakami;=20
            Souichirou</B> (Narashino, JP); <B>Mizusawa; Minoru</B> =
(Yokahoma,=20
            JP). </TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Assignee: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries Co., =
Ltd.</B>=20
            (Tokyo, JP). </TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Appl. No.: </TD>
        <TD><B>910,817</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Filed: </TD>
        <TD><B>Jul. 9, 1992</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P>
<CENTER><B>Foreign Application Priority Data</B></CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D80%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D100%>Aug. 9, 1991 [JP] </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%>3-223597</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D100%>Aug. 12, 1991 [JP] </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright =
width=3D50%>3-225383</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Intl. Cl. : </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>H01M 8/04</B>, H01M =
8/18</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Current U.S. Cl.: </B><!--CCL =
Hit--></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>429/17</B>; 422/173; 422/174; =
422/177;=20
            429/19; 429/20; 429/26</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Field of Search: =
</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>429</B>/17, 20, =
19, 26;=20
            <B>422</B>/173, 174, 177</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>References Cited | <A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ref_srch4?INDEX+0+5270127+F">[Re=
ferenced=20
By]</A></B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER>U.S. Patent Documents</CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D90%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4933242+F">4,933,=
242</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1990</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Koga et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>429</B>/19</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+5015444+F">5,015,=
444</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>May, 1991</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Koga et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright =
width=3D25%><B>472</B>/195</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER>Foreign Patent Documents</CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D90%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>0429958</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1991</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>EP</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>0430184</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1991</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>EP</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>1553361</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jan., 1969</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>FR</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>63-291802</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Nov., 1988</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>JP</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>2-80301</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Mar., 1990</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>JP</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright =
width=3D25%></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<DL>
    <DD>
    <CENTER>Other References</CENTER>
    <DD>
    <P>Patent Abstracts of Japan, vol. 14, No. 270(C-727) (4313), 12 =
Jun. 1990=20
    (JPA 2-80 301).=20
    <P>Patent Abstracts of Japan, vol. 13, No. 119(C-579) (3467) 23 Mar. =
1989=20
    (JPA 63-291, 802).=20
    <P>Chemical Abstracts 110:234633a, 26 Jun. 1989 (JPA 63-291, 802).=20
</P></DD></DL><BR><I>Primary Examiner: </I>Gorgos; =
Kathryn<BR><I>Attorney, Agent=20
or Firm: </I>Trexler, Bushnell, Giangiorgi &amp; Blackstone<BR>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>Abstract</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<P>A plate type shift converter comprises a stack of alternately piled =
shift=20
reactor plates and cooling plates and various gas intake and exhaust =
manifolds=20
mounted on lateral faces of the stack. Each shift reactor plate includes =
a plate=20
member, a masking frame provided along the periphery of the plate =
member, a gas=20
entrance formed in the masking frame, a gas exit formed at a location =
opposite=20
the gas entrance in the masking frame and a <B><I>shift catalyst</I></B> =
located=20
in the masking frame. Each cooling plate includes a plate member, a =
masking=20
frame provided along the periphery of the plate member, a gas entrance =
formed in=20
the masking frame, a gas exit formed at a location opposite the second =
gas=20
entrance in the masking frame and a fin plate located in the masking =
frame. When=20
gases are introduced to the shift reactor plate, the gases undergo the =
CO shift=20
reaction (exothermic reaction) as they flow contacting the <B><I>shift=20
catalyst</I></B>. At the same time, the gases are cooled by the cooling =
plates=20
which sandwich the flow of the gases or sandwich the shift reactor =
plate.=20
<P>
<CENTER><B>25 Claims, </B><B>13 Drawing Figures</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> </CENTER>
<TABLE border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+7403+=
4+-1+-1+OF+1+17+1+%22Shift+Catalyst%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Previous Patent]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/prev.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+7403+=
4+-1+-1+OF+3+17+1+%22Shift+Catalyst%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Next Patent]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/next.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilist4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+7403+1=
7+OF+1+4+%22Shift+Catalyst%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Back to List]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/list.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dbottom width=3D500><FONT size=3D-1>(=20
            <STRONG>2</STRONG></FONT> <FONT size=3D-2>of</FONT> =
<STRONG><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>17</STRONG> )</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>
</BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BDB4B0.085E8D60--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 13:37:07 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21890;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:18:06 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:18:06 -0700
Message-ID: <010401bdb4e4$11633760$deb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <rvanspaa vic.bigpon.net.au>
Cc: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: United States Patent 4,021,366 (http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:13:07 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01BDB4B1.AEDA6000"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"_GjUQ2.0.nL5.zTFjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20753
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BDB4B1.AEDA6000
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=20

[USPTO]=20
       ( 4 of 4 )=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
United States Patent  4,021,366=20
            Robin, et. al. May 3, 1977=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Production of hydrogen-rich gas Inventors:  Robin; Allen M. (Anaheim, =
CA); Child; Edward T. (Tarrytown, NY). =20
            Assignee:  Texaco Inc. (New York, NY). =20
            Appl. No.:  592,132=20
            Filed:  Jun. 30, 1975=20
Intl. Cl. :  C01B 2/06, C01B 2/10=20
            Current U.S. Cl.:  252/373; 423/655; 423/656=20
            Field of Search:  423/655, 656; 252/373=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

References Cited | [Referenced By]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

U.S. Patent Documents
2,465,235 Mar., 1949 Kubicek =20
            2,593,584 Apr., 1952 Lynch 252/373=20
            3,345,136 Oct., 1967 Finnevan et al. 423/656=20
            3,361,534 Jan., 1968 Johnson et al. 423/656 X=20
            3,392,001 Jul., 1968 Lorenz et al. 423/656=20
            3,652,454 Mar., 1972 Robin 252/373=20
            3,666,682 May, 1972 Muenger 252/373=20
            3,720,625 Mar., 1973 Kapp et al. 252/373=20
            3,850,840 Nov., 1974 Aldridge et al. 252/373=20
            3,890,113 Jun., 1975 Child et al. 252/373=20
   =20

Foreign Patent Documents
1,080,295 Aug., 1967 UK 423/656=20
            1,302,135 Jan., 1973 UK 252/373=20
   =20
Primary Examiner: Mars; Howard T.
Attorney, Agent or Firm: Whaley; Thomas H., Ries; Carl G., Brent; Albert

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Abstract

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

This is a continuous process for producing hydrogen-rich gas. Successive =
beds of water-gas shift conversion catalysts of differing properties are =
employed in a shift converter to achieve an economical balance between =
catalyst activity and catalyst life. For example, a comparatively small =
fixed bed of highly active low temperature water-gas shift conversion =
catalyst may be loaded on top of a fixed bed of rugged low cost =
moderately active high temperature water-gas shift catalyst. A CO-rich =
gas and H(2) O are introduced into the bed of low temperature shift =
catalyst where reaction takes place. The partially reacted gas stream =
leaves the bed of low temperature shift catalyst and is introduced into =
the bed of high temperature catalyst at a suitable temperature for =
triggering off therein the water gas shift reaction without the additon =
of heat from an external source. By this means it may be possible to =
produce hydrogen-rich gas with high conversions of CO to CO(2), and to =
increase catalyst life at a moderate cost. It may also be possible to =
eliminate a feed heater or feed-product heat exchanger.=20


14 Claims, 1 Drawing Figures

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

[USPTO]=20
       ( 4 of 4 )=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------


------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BDB4B1.AEDA6000
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>United States Patent =
4,021,366</TITLE><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+11073+=
4+0+93301+OF+4+4+1+water%2dgas+AND+%22Shift+Catalyst%22><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><A name=3Dtop></A>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/help/help.html"><IMG =
alt=3D[Help]=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/help.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/index.html"><IMG alt=3D[Home] =
border=3D0 height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/home.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-bool.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Boolean Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/boolean.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-adv.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D[Advanced] border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/advanced.gif" =
width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-num.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Number Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/number.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptcs/"><IMG =
alt=3D"[Order Copy]"=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/copy.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptdl/"><IMG alt=3D[PTDLs] border=3D0 =
height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/ptdl.gif" width=3D63></A> </CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> </CENTER>
<TABLE border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+11073=
+4+-1+-1+OF+3+4+1+water%2dgas+AND+%22Shift+Catalyst%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Previous Patent]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/prev.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40>&nbsp; </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilist4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+11073+=
4+OF+1+4+water%2dgas+AND+%22Shift+Catalyst%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Back to List]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/list.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dbottom width=3D500><FONT size=3D-1>(=20
            <STRONG>4</STRONG></FONT> <FONT size=3D-2>of</FONT> =
<STRONG><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>4</STRONG> )</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>

<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>United States Patent </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>4,021,366</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>Robin, et. al.</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>May 3, =
1977</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>
<B>Production of hydrogen-rich gas </B>
<TABLE>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Inventors: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Robin; Allen M.</B> (Anaheim, CA); <B>Child; =

            Edward T.</B> (Tarrytown, NY). </TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Assignee: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Texaco Inc.</B> (New York, NY). </TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Appl. No.: </TD>
        <TD><B>592,132</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Filed: </TD>
        <TD><B>Jun. 30, 1975</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Intl. Cl. : </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>C01B 2/06</B>, C01B =
2/10</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Current U.S. Cl.: </B><!--CCL =
Hit--></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>252/373</B>; 423/655; =
423/656</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Field of Search: =
</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>423</B>/655, 656;=20
            <B>252</B>/373</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>References Cited | <A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ref_srch4?INDEX+0+4021366+F">[Re=
ferenced=20
By]</A></B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER>U.S. Patent Documents</CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D90%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>2,465,235</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Mar., 1949</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Kubicek</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>2,593,584</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Apr., 1952</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Lynch</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>252</B>/373</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,345,136</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Oct., 1967</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Finnevan et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>423</B>/656</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,361,534</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jan., 1968</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Johnson et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>423</B>/656 <B>X</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,392,001</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jul., 1968</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Lorenz et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>423</B>/656</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,652,454</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Mar., 1972</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Robin</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>252</B>/373</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,666,682</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>May, 1972</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Muenger</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>252</B>/373</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,720,625</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Mar., 1973</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Kapp et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>252</B>/373</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,850,840</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Nov., 1974</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Aldridge et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>252</B>/373</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,890,113</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1975</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Child et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright =
width=3D25%><B>252</B>/373</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER>Foreign Patent Documents</CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D90%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>1,080,295</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Aug., 1967</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>UK</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%>423/656</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>1,302,135</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jan., 1973</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>UK</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright =
width=3D25%>252/373</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER><I>Primary=20
Examiner: </I>Mars; Howard T.<BR><I>Attorney, Agent or Firm: </I>Whaley; =
Thomas=20
H., Ries; Carl G., Brent; Albert<BR>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>Abstract</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<P>This is a continuous process for producing hydrogen-rich gas. =
Successive beds=20
of <B><I>water-gas</I></B> shift conversion catalysts of differing =
properties=20
are employed in a shift converter to achieve an economical balance =
between=20
catalyst activity and catalyst life. For example, a comparatively small =
fixed=20
bed of highly active low temperature <B><I>water-gas</I></B> shift =
conversion=20
catalyst may be loaded on top of a fixed bed of rugged low cost =
moderately=20
active high temperature <B><I>water-gas</I></B> <B><I>shift =
catalyst</I></B>. A=20
CO-rich gas and H(<I>2</I>) O are introduced into the bed of low =
temperature=20
<B><I>shift catalyst</I></B> where reaction takes place. The partially =
reacted=20
gas stream leaves the bed of low temperature <B><I>shift =
catalyst</I></B> and is=20
introduced into the bed of high temperature catalyst at a suitable =
temperature=20
for triggering off therein the water gas shift reaction without the =
additon of=20
heat from an external source. By this means it may be possible to =
produce=20
hydrogen-rich gas with high conversions of CO to CO(<I>2</I>), and to =
increase=20
catalyst life at a moderate cost. It may also be possible to eliminate a =
feed=20
heater or feed-product heat exchanger.=20
<P>
<CENTER><B>14 Claims, </B><B>1 Drawing Figures</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> </CENTER>
<TABLE border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+11073=
+4+-1+-1+OF+3+4+1+water%2dgas+AND+%22Shift+Catalyst%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Previous Patent]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/prev.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40>&nbsp; </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilist4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+11073+=
4+OF+1+4+water%2dgas+AND+%22Shift+Catalyst%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Back to List]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/list.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dbottom width=3D500><FONT size=3D-1>(=20
            <STRONG>4</STRONG></FONT> <FONT size=3D-2>of</FONT> =
<STRONG><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>4</STRONG> )</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>
</BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BDB4B1.AEDA6000--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 13:37:59 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26175;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:30:53 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:30:53 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980721153144.00cc6eac mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:31:44 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Jed's Case against Scott
In-Reply-To: <199807211052_MC2-53B6-1A2C compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"REuuS1.0.uO6.yfFjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20756
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 10:49 7/21/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>If you obtain positive results, but the cell still cannot self sustain, that
>proves you made a mistake too.

Not necessarily.  It seems perfectly plausible to me that the cell could
require, say, 50 watts to trigger the effect but that the effect would only
generate, say, 10 watts of excess heat.  Such a cell could never
self-sustain but I could sure confirm that excess heat level in our
calorimeter.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 13:40:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26839;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:32:16 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:32:16 -0700
Message-ID: <014e01bdb4e6$188ccb80$deb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Nasa Talks About Life in Space
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:28:08 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0148_01BDB4B3.C8166B20"
Resent-Message-ID: <"vnX-W.0.EZ6.FhFjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20757
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0148_01BDB4B3.C8166B20
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

SETI or CETI?  Okay Terry,tell us more. :-)

http://wire.ap.org/?PACKAGEID=meteor


------=_NextPart_000_0148_01BDB4B3.C8166B20
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="The Wire - Breaking News from the Associated Press.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="The Wire - Breaking News from the Associated Press.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://wire.ap.org/?PACKAGEID=meteor
Modified=209AC57BE5B4BD0151

------=_NextPart_000_0148_01BDB4B3.C8166B20--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 13:44:27 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01463;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:31:28 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:31:28 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:25:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Off topic] Euro, dismal science
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980720142754.01a8fb00 spectre.mitre.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980721132049.16503A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"0WHNr1.0.nM.RgFjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20755
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

 
 All this fuss about "Euro-Currency" makes little sense to me.
 
  As  far  as  the Europeans are concerned they can pay thier bills
 with orange peels for all I care. If on the other hand  they  want
 to indulge in the extant fantasy that the piece of paper they hold
 in  their  hands  is  actually worth something because it has some
 kind of intergovernmental edict printed on it ,  go  for  it!  You
 deserve  whatever  government you pay homage to in the use of such
 bills so quit complaining.
 
  Economics as such may be  a  "dismal"  science  but  is  also  in
 general  a sort of stupid religion.  It's all based on maintaining
 a trance-like mass hallucination  that  the  variously  ornamented
 strips of paper have some kind of value in and of themselves.
 
 The  EMPERER HAS NO CLOTHES! All you atheists out there reach into
 your pockets and pull out that so-called one dollar bill -
 
 THIS IS YOUR GOD! Why do you  think  they  call  it  the  ALMIGHTY
 DOLLAR?
 
  What  ?   You  don't  believe that the dismal science of money is
 really a religion? The next time you are dragged into a  courtroom
 to  answer  to  the  charge  of  violating some traffic rule plead
 guilty and ask the judge if he wouldn't mind if you paid your fine
 in terms of the "dollars" you ran off yesterday on  your  computer
 printer . Make sure these bills have lots of cartoon characters on
 them  and  don't  look anything like what passes for "money" these
 days.  That way you can't be accused of "counterfeiting". When  he
 looks  at  you  rather  sternly and threatens you with contempt of
 court , politely ask him whether the black robes he is wearing are
 significant of any religious proceedings that he may be  presiding
 over  ,  and  whether  or  not  your appearance in "his" courtroom
 signifies your subservience to that religion.
 
  If he says no then ask him what that funny little  pyramid  with
 the menacing looking eyeball floating over it means.
 
  You take it from there , pilgrim.
 
  Jim Ostrowski
 
 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 14:00:28 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA32642;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:54:50 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:54:50 -0700
Message-ID: <017801bdb4e9$41a42ce0$deb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Jed's Case against Scott
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:50:37 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"ddZv12.0.yz7.Q0Gjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20759
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>;
Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com <Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 2:33 PM
Subject: Jed's Case against Scott

Scott wrote:


>At 10:49 7/21/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>>If you obtain positive results, but the cell still cannot self sustain,
that
>>proves you made a mistake too.
>
>Not necessarily.  It seems perfectly plausible to me that the cell could
>require, say, 50 watts to trigger the effect but that the effect would only
>generate, say, 10 watts of excess heat.  Such a cell could never
>self-sustain but I could sure confirm that excess heat level in our
>calorimeter.

I think one wants to review the Chemical Oxygen Demand (COD) of Carbon, and
Hydrogen and the possible combinations before getting overexcited about
over-unity from a hundreds of square meters/gram of Pd-Carbon catalyst:

Cx, COx,CxHy, CxHyOz, and HxOy and Deuterium
introduced to boot.

There are only a few million possible combinations obtainable from a
carbonaceous material (Activated Charcoal)made from coconut shells reacted
with Steam or CO2 at high temperature.   :-)

Regards,   Frederick
>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 14:07:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04315;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:49:16 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:49:16 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <016b01bdb4e7$5efc9ae0$deb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Jim Ostrowski" <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [Off topic] Euro, dismal science
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:37:21 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"RQqMw1.0.I31.AxFjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20758
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 21, 1998 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Off topic] Euro, dismal science


Did you you have a bad day, Jim?    :-)

Frederick

> 
> All this fuss about "Euro-Currency" makes little sense to me.
> 
>  As  far  as  the Europeans are concerned they can pay thier bills
> with orange peels for all I care. If on the other hand  they  want
> to indulge in the extant fantasy that the piece of paper they hold
> in  their  hands  is  actually worth something because it has some
> kind of intergovernmental edict printed on it ,  go  for  it!  You
> deserve  whatever  government you pay homage to in the use of such
> bills so quit complaining.
> 
>  Economics as such may be  a  "dismal"  science  but  is  also  in
> general  a sort of stupid religion.  It's all based on maintaining
> a trance-like mass hallucination  that  the  variously  ornamented
> strips of paper have some kind of value in and of themselves.
> 
> The  EMPERER HAS NO CLOTHES! All you atheists out there reach into
> your pockets and pull out that so-called one dollar bill -
> 
> THIS IS YOUR GOD! Why do you  think  they  call  it  the  ALMIGHTY
> DOLLAR?
> 
>  What  ?   You  don't  believe that the dismal science of money is
> really a religion? The next time you are dragged into a  courtroom
> to  answer  to  the  charge  of  violating some traffic rule plead
> guilty and ask the judge if he wouldn't mind if you paid your fine
> in terms of the "dollars" you ran off yesterday on  your  computer
> printer . Make sure these bills have lots of cartoon characters on
> them  and  don't  look anything like what passes for "money" these
> days.  That way you can't be accused of "counterfeiting". When  he
> looks  at  you  rather  sternly and threatens you with contempt of
> court , politely ask him whether the black robes he is wearing are
> significant of any religious proceedings that he may be  presiding
> over  ,  and  whether  or  not  your appearance in "his" courtroom
> signifies your subservience to that religion.
> 
>  If he says no then ask him what that funny little  pyramid  with
> the menacing looking eyeball floating over it means.
> 
>  You take it from there , pilgrim.
> 
>  Jim Ostrowski
> 
> 
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 14:04:54 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00728;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:57:59 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:57:59 -0700
Message-ID: <010201bdb4e4$0bfcc520$deb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <rvnspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
Cc: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: United States Patent 3,974,096 (http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:54:04 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BDB4AF.0632A220"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"Gv-oV.0.HB.N3Gjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20760
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BDB4AF.0632A220
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=20

[USPTO]=20
       ( 17 of 17 )=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
United States Patent  3,974,096=20
            Segura, et. al. Aug. 10, 1976=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Water gas shift catalyst Inventors:  Segura; Marnell A. (Baton Rouge, =
LA); Aldridge; Clyde L. (Baton Rouge, LA); Riley; Kenneth L. (Baton =
Rouge, LA); Pine; Lloyd A. (Baton Rouge, LA). =20
            Assignee:  Exxon Research and Engineering Company (Linden, =
NJ). =20
            Appl. No.:  526,306=20
            Filed:  Nov. 22, 1974=20
   =20

Related U.S. Application Data
Division of Ser No. 235,178, Mar. 16, 1972, abandoned.=20
   =20
Intl. Cl. :  B01J 27/04, B01J 27/10=20
            Current U.S. Cl.:  502/174; 502/216; 502/220; 502/222; =
502/229=20
            Field of Search:  252/441, 442, 464, 465, 466 J, 476, 439, =
443, 470, 467; 423/654, 655, 656=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

References Cited | [Referenced By]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

U.S. Patent Documents
3,345,136 Oct., 1967 Finneran et al. 423/656=20
            3,529,935 Sept., 1970 Lorenz et al. 423/656=20
            3,544,650 Dec., 1970 Garwood 252/442 X=20
   =20
Primary Examiner: Shine; W. J.
Attorney, Agent or Firm: Ditsler; John W.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Abstract

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Hydrogen is produced by reacting carbon monoxide with steam at a =
temperature of at least 200 deg. F. in the presence of a supported =
catalyst containing: (1) at least one alkali metal compound derived from =
an acid having an ionization constant below 1 * 10(^)(^-3), (2) a =
metallic hydrogenation-dehydrogenation material, and (3) a halogen =
moiety. The ratio of metal component to alkali metal compound, each =
calculated on the basis of the oxide thereof, ranges from 0.0001 to =
about 10 parts by weight per part by weight of the alkali metal =
compound. The halide constituent is present in amounts in excess of =
about 0.01 weight %, based on total catalyst. A preferred catalyst =
composition comprises potassium carbonate, a mixture of cobalt and =
molybdenum oxides and combined chlorine contained on an alumina support. =



6 Claims, 2 Drawing Figures

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

[USPTO]=20
       ( 17 of 17 )=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------


------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BDB4AF.0632A220
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>United States Patent =
3,974,096</TITLE><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+7403+4=
+0+44045+OF+17+17+1+%22Shift+Catalyst%22><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><A name=3Dtop></A>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/help/help.html"><IMG =
alt=3D[Help]=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/help.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/index.html"><IMG alt=3D[Home] =
border=3D0 height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/home.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-bool.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Boolean Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/boolean.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-adv.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D[Advanced] border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/advanced.gif" =
width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-num.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Number Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/number.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptcs/"><IMG =
alt=3D"[Order Copy]"=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/copy.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptdl/"><IMG alt=3D[PTDLs] border=3D0 =
height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/ptdl.gif" width=3D63></A> </CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> </CENTER>
<TABLE border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+7403+=
4+-1+-1+OF+16+17+1+%22Shift+Catalyst%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Previous Patent]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/prev.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40>&nbsp; </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilist4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+7403+1=
7+OF+1+4+%22Shift+Catalyst%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Back to List]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/list.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dbottom width=3D500><FONT size=3D-1>(=20
            <STRONG>17</STRONG></FONT> <FONT size=3D-2>of</FONT> =
<STRONG><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>17</STRONG> )</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>

<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>United States Patent </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>3,974,096</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>Segura, et. al.</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>Aug. 10, =
1976</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>
<B>Water gas <B><I>shift catalyst</I></B> </B>
<TABLE>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Inventors: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Segura; Marnell A.</B> (Baton Rouge, LA);=20
            <B>Aldridge; Clyde L.</B> (Baton Rouge, LA); <B>Riley; =
Kenneth=20
            L.</B> (Baton Rouge, LA); <B>Pine; Lloyd A.</B> (Baton =
Rouge, LA).=20
</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Assignee: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Exxon Research and Engineering Company</B>=20
            (Linden, NJ). </TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Appl. No.: </TD>
        <TD><B>526,306</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Filed: </TD>
        <TD><B>Nov. 22, 1974</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P>
<CENTER><B>Related U.S. Application Data</B></CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D95%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD>Division of Ser No. 235,178, Mar. 16, 1972,=20
abandoned.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Intl. Cl. : </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>B01J 27/04</B>, B01J =
27/10</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Current U.S. Cl.: </B><!--CCL =
Hit--></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>502/174</B>; 502/216; 502/220; =
502/222;=20
            502/229</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Field of Search: =
</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>252</B>/441, 442, =
464, 465,=20
            466 J, 476, 439, 443, 470, 467; <B>423</B>/654, 655,=20
656</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>References Cited | <A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ref_srch4?INDEX+0+3974096+F">[Re=
ferenced=20
By]</A></B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER>U.S. Patent Documents</CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D90%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,345,136</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Oct., 1967</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Finneran et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>423</B>/656</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,529,935</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Sept., 1970</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Lorenz et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>423</B>/656</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,544,650</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Dec., 1970</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Garwood</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>252</B>/442=20
<B>X</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<P><I>Primary Examiner: </I>Shine; W. J.<BR><I>Attorney, Agent or Firm:=20
</I>Ditsler; John W.<BR>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>Abstract</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<P>Hydrogen is produced by reacting carbon monoxide with steam at a =
temperature=20
of at least 200<I> deg. </I>F. in the presence of a supported catalyst=20
containing: (1) at least one alkali metal compound derived from an acid =
having=20
an ionization constant below 1 * 10(^<I></I>)(^<I>-3</I>), (2) a =
metallic=20
hydrogenation-dehydrogenation material, and (3) a halogen moiety. The =
ratio of=20
metal component to alkali metal compound, each calculated on the basis =
of the=20
oxide thereof, ranges from 0.0001 to about 10 parts by weight per part =
by weight=20
of the alkali metal compound. The halide constituent is present in =
amounts in=20
excess of about 0.01 weight %, based on total catalyst. A preferred =
catalyst=20
composition comprises potassium carbonate, a mixture of cobalt and =
molybdenum=20
oxides and combined chlorine contained on an alumina support.=20
<P>
<CENTER><B>6 Claims, </B><B>2 Drawing Figures</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> </CENTER>
<TABLE border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+7403+=
4+-1+-1+OF+16+17+1+%22Shift+Catalyst%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Previous Patent]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/prev.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40>&nbsp; </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilist4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+7403+1=
7+OF+1+4+%22Shift+Catalyst%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Back to List]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/list.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dbottom width=3D500><FONT size=3D-1>(=20
            <STRONG>17</STRONG></FONT> <FONT size=3D-2>of</FONT> =
<STRONG><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>17</STRONG> )</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>
</BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BDB4AF.0632A220--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 15:57:32 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26470;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:51:31 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:51:31 -0700
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:07:40 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Jed's Case against Scott
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807211851_MC2-53C4-1B2F compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"Cp-9u1.0.LT6.njHjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20761
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Scott Little writes:

     It seems perfectly plausible to me that the cell could require, say, 50
     watts to trigger the effect but that the effect would only generate,
     say, 10 watts of excess heat . . .

Nope. This is a gas loaded cell: it never requires any input, not 50 watts or
1. There is no mechanism for putting energy into the catalyst material. The
power consumed by the apparatus is only required to keep the temperature at a
given level. If you can keep the temperature at that level by some other
method, like putting a blanket around the cell or moving the cell to the
surface of Mercury, you could hold the temperature high with no electrical
input.

Furthermore, the heat from the heating coil cannot be a contributing factor
because the catalyst material is hotter than the surroundings -- assuming the
calorimetry is telling us the truth.


     Such a cell could never self-sustain but I could sure confirm that
     excess heat level in our calorimeter.

A gas cell that produces heat is self-sustaining by definition. That is the
only mode of operation it can be in. The only work done to the cathode (energy
input) occurs when the gas initially enters the cathode under pressure. Excess
heat appears after that, just as it does in fully loaded heat-after-death
palladium cathodes when electrolysis has been turned off and the outside
pressure is reduced to 1 atm of heavy water vapor.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 20:58:24 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12302;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:56:05 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:56:05 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980721234526.007dc100 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:45:26 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC, Deformed Frogs , Asthma Near Epidemic and
  Oxygenated Fuels.
In-Reply-To: <007c01bdaedd$5cc287e0$e7b4bfa8 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"l0nu12.0.503.HBMjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20762
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:10 PM 7/13/98 -0600,  Frederick wrote:

>
>Frogs breathe through their skin. OUR BRONCHIAL TUBES and LUNGS are SKIN.
>
>Regards,    Frederick


   Not to understate the warnings which Fred correctly
describes, and which the frogs are succumbing to,
but amphibians breathe through both their lungs and skin.

   The skin-related external respiration mainly
concerns CO2 and dominates at low temperature where
the lung system shuts off (by 5 degrees C).  
   By 23 Cent.  the two systems contribute
equally for O2 transport in Salamanders
(spotted type, circa 65 microliters O2/gm-hr
Whitford, Hutchison, Biol. Bulletin, 124:344-354 (1963)).
By 30C, the lung system doubles the mass flow of the
skin for O2.  
   For CO2, the skin transport system remains
about 6x more important than the lung system 
even at the higher temp.


      Mitchell Swartz

 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 21:03:14 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12369;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:56:21 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:56:21 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980721234538.007de3c0 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:45:38 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Scott Little on Case
In-Reply-To: <199807211052_MC2-53B6-1A2C compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"As69K.0.B13.YBMjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20763
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


At 10:49 AM 7/21/98 -0400, Jed wrote:

>I said there would be no point to sending the Case cell to Scott Little now,
>since Case himself cannot make it self sustain. Scott Little responded:
>
>     Plenty of point as far as I can see.  We have a standing invitation to
>     Dr. Case to visit EarthTech with his original apparatus for a free
>     calorimetric measurement of it.  If we obtain positive results with such
>     a measurement it will provide an enormous amount of enthusiasm for
>     further pursuit of the Case phenomenon.
>
>If you obtain positive results, but the cell still cannot self sustain, that
>proves you made a mistake too. 


  Self sustaining is substituting a more complicated arrangement
in place of experimental science.

  There is a lot of good work that can be done with these materials
BEFORE one approaches a self-sustaining system.
It is like trying to build the Saturn V without scientifically
building, engineering, redesigning, and integrating each
subsystem.  

 ===================================================

>A failed self sustaining test will prove it is nothing but a temperature
>anomaly. 

   This is probably not true.  Any true temperature anomaly
is worth exploring as to etiology and magnitude.

 ===================================================

>It will prove that more convincingly than any calorimetric technique
>can do. Furthermore, we sometimes lose sight of the fact that the only
>practical reason to do this research is to *make a self-sustaining machine*.

    Incorrect.  Science and engineering explore their own
worlds and generate often unexpected results and devices.
These include material science, nuclear physics, electrochemistry
and electrical engineering (for starters).  The
goal is to expand science first, engineering next.

 ===================================================

>Calorimetry is at best equivalent
>to wind-tunnel test. 

   No. calorimetry is equivalent to developing the jig
to measure wing lift in the wind tunnel.  The engineering of the
system[s], and especially any self-sustaining mechanism
is much more complicated.

 ===================================================

>2. With a gas cell, use a standard, sophisticated method, like a flow
>calorimeter or better yet a Seebeck envelope calorimeter.

   Nope.  The flow calorimeters, especially the vertical 
ones are relatively low flow rates, are fraught with danger 
unless calibrated with thermal waveform reconstruction.  
  The latter, and the former at higher flow rates, 
can be more complicated for several reasons including 
their potential effect upon the reactions due to large heat 
drain for some systems.

     Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 21:34:05 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA32104;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:30:23 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:30:23 -0700
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:11:45 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Proceeding Carefully in O/U . . .
In-reply-to: <199807211052_MC2-53B6-1A2B compuserve.com>
X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <199807211611.JAA15867 smtp1.asu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"d5hMP.0.Kr7.UhMjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20764
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 10:49 AM 7/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
>To: Vortex
>
>So far, nobody has been able to make a self-sustaining electric machine as
far
>as I know. CF devices in heat after death and gas loaded CF devices are self
>sustaining.

I see. And where is this self sustaining CF cell that is sitting there
sustaining itself month after month, year after year, continuously running
to the amazement of everyone. A watershed breakthrough in the history of
mankind, and I have missed it. Damn!

That *is* what self sustaining means, isn't it Jed?

--Lynn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 21 23:23:34 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20220;
	Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:20:35 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:20:35 -0700
Message-ID: <003d01bdb538$4b750c40$cfb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Powered Battery?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:16:35 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"4aNcv1.0.rx4.oIOjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20765
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Exploiting the thermal release of Magnesium
or Calcium Oxide combining with CO2 could result in a "storage battery" that
could be electrically or thermally recharged giving
off the essentially benign CO2:

CaO + CO2 <--->  CaCO3 + Energy or

MgO + CO2 <--->  MgCO3 + Energy

Roughly,the possible watt-hrs/lb could be 75 watt-hours/lb for CaO-CO2 and
about
30 watt-hours/lb for MgO-CO2, as opposed to
15 watt-hours/lb for lead-acid storage batteries.

I Think.   :-)

Regards,   Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 06:56:03 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA18785;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:48:23 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:48:23 -0700
Message-ID: <004f01bdb576$daca47a0$cfb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject:  SEC Accuses Solv-Ex of Fraud (http://www.abqjournal.com/biz/1biz7-21.htm)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:37:24 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0034_01BDB543.92024320"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"KztsU.0.Qb4.dsUjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20766
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BDB543.92024320
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



http://www.abqjournal.com/biz/1biz7-21.htm

------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BDB543.92024320
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name=" SEC Accuses Solv-Ex of Fraud.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename=" SEC Accuses Solv-Ex of Fraud.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.abqjournal.com/biz/1biz7-21.htm
Modified=00C6EFC875B5BD0165

------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BDB543.92024320--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 07:25:47 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA28311;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:21:53 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:21:53 -0700
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:24:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Off topic] Euro, dismal science
In-Reply-To: <016b01bdb4e7$5efc9ae0$deb4bfa8 default>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980722071954.1507A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"UhDKn1.0.Gw6.0MVjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20767
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> 
> 
> Did you you have a bad day, Jim?    :-)
> 
> Frederick


:^) Forget I said anything .... everybody back in the pool!

Jim


> 
> > 
> > All this fuss about "Euro-Currency" makes little sense to me.
> >

[snip]
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 07:55:53 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA13409;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:53:06 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:53:06 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <005001bdb576$dbde76c0$cfb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject:  Solv-Ex Saga (http://www.abqjournal.com/biz/solvex/1bout6-16.htm)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:41:25 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003D_01BDB544.215EB3A0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"fIwU2.0.NH3.DpVjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20768
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BDB544.215EB3A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



http://www.abqjournal.com/biz/solvex/1bout6-16.htm

------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BDB544.215EB3A0
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name=" Solv-Ex Saga.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename=" Solv-Ex Saga.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.abqjournal.com/biz/solvex/1bout6-16.htm
Modified=009DC25F76B5BD01A7

------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BDB544.215EB3A0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 08:00:11 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA05180;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:55:58 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:55:58 -0700
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:53:40 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Proceeding Carefully in O/U . . .
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807221055_MC2-53DF-3597 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"L7J2p2.0.sG1.zrVjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20769
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; Lynn Kurtz >INTERNET:kurtz imap2.asu.edu

Lynn Kurtz writes:

     I see. And where is this self sustaining CF cell that is sitting there
     sustaining itself month after month, year after year, continuously
     running to the amazement of everyone. A watershed breakthrough in the
     history of mankind, and I have missed it. Damn!

This is a snide comment. People who wish to learn about self-sustaining,
heat-after-death cells and other aspects of cold fusion must *read the
literature*. You will not learn about a breakthrough if you refuse to look. It
adds nothing to this discussion when Kurtz pretends the literature does not
exist, and make silly jokes about how "I missed it, Damn!" He insists on
missing it. He refuses to look! This comment is not oh-so-clever repartee.
What we have here is a willfully ignorant person *bragging* about the fact
that he refuses to read scientific papers. That isn't funny or witty, it's
grotesque. It is pathetic. Kurtz is evidently an educated man, yet he perverts
knowledge in barbaric, anti-science, anti-intellectual mockery. I am reminded
of the famous remarks made by Huxley after the Bishop Wilberforce delivered a
fatuous attack on evolution, devoid of scientific content, and ended by asking
whether Huxley thought that his grandfather or his grandmother was an ape.
Huxley described his response in a letter to his friend Dyster:

     . . . I got up I spoke pretty much to the effect -- that I had listened
     with great attention to the Lord Bishops speech but had been unable to
     discover either a new fact or a new argument in it -- except indeed the
     question raised as to my personal predilections in the matter of
     ancestry -- That it would not have occurred to me to bring forward such
     a topic as that for discussion myself, but that I was quite ready to
     meet the Right Revd. prelate even on that ground -- If then, said I the
     question is put to me would I rather have a miserable ape for a
     grandfather or a man highly endowed by nature and possessed of great
     means of influence & yet who employs those faculties & that influence
     for the mere purpose of introducing ridicule into a grave scientific
     discussion -- I unhesitatingly affirm my preference for the ape.



     That *is* what self sustaining means, isn't it Jed?

No, it isn't. There is no scientific justification for demanding the cell work
"month after month" or "year after year." This is an example of an impossible
goal. To keep the CF team from scoring, the skeptics resort to moving the
goalposts out of the stadium, into the next county. To prove that a cell is
producing cold fusion and not chemical energy it is only necessary for the
cell to run for hours or at most days, depending on the mass of the cathode
and the power level.

In point of fact, however, some gas loaded cells have run for months,
continuously, notably Piantelli and Arata's cells. They have not been
replicated as far as I know, so these results must be taken with a grain of
salt. As far as I know, the record for heat after death with conventional
palladium in heavy water was reported by Mizuno in 1991. It ran for 10 days,
producing ~84 megajoules. The cell produced ~114 megajoules excess energy
during the entire run.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 10:36:39 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA15400;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:29:52 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:29:52 -0700
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:29:12 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Proceeding Carefully in O/U . . .
In-reply-to: <199807221055_MC2-53DF-3597 compuserve.com>
X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <199807221629.JAA29721 smtp1.asu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"KiJzL1.0.Um3.F6Yjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20770
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 10:53 AM 7/22/98 -0400, you wrote:
>To: Vortex; Lynn Kurtz >INTERNET:kurtz imap2.asu.edu
>
>Lynn Kurtz writes:
>
>     I see. And where is this self sustaining CF cell that is sitting there
>     sustaining itself month after month, year after year, continuously
>     running to the amazement of everyone. A watershed breakthrough in the
>     history of mankind, and I have missed it. Damn!
>
>This is a snide comment. 

<*snip Jed's ad hominem*>

>
>     That *is* what self sustaining means, isn't it Jed?
>
>No, it isn't. There is no scientific justification for demanding the cell
work
>"month after month" or "year after year." This is an example of an impossible
>goal. 

Well, Jed, yes it is. Apparently, under your definition, a good battery is
self sustaining. After all, it will power a small bulb for days or weeks.
Your claim that CF is self-sustaining deserves a snide retort. I did not
"set the goal" of self-sustaining for CF, you claimed that it was already
there which is patently false.

In case you are still having difficulty understanding the concept, here are
a couple of examples to help you out (neither of which exist, unfortunately):

A minato like motor generator powers itself, and maybe a 100W bulb,
sustaining itself and running until the bearings wear out. That is (would
be) self sustaining.

A beautiful large CF cell produces hundreds of watts which is used to heat
water in a domestic hot water heater and supplies the household's hot water
for 10 years, at which time the Nuclear fuel (or whatever unexplained
process it is) is exhausted. This is one of CF's holy grails, but it is not
self sustaining. The fuel is eventually used up. Like a battery.

Get it?

--Lynn


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 11:00:42 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17063;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:54:27 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:54:27 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:49:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Proceeding Carefully in O/U . . .
In-Reply-To: <199807221629.JAA29721 smtp1.asu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980722104033.17938A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"a-VwI3.0.WA4.FTYjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20771
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Lynn Kurtz wrote:

> 
> A beautiful large CF cell produces hundreds of watts which is used to heat
> water in a domestic hot water heater and supplies the household's hot water
> for 10 years, at which time the Nuclear fuel (or whatever unexplained
> process it is) is exhausted. This is one of CF's holy grails, but it is not
> self sustaining. The fuel is eventually used up. Like a battery.

Wait a minute . as much as I disagree with Jed about a lot of things a
battery has to be charged with more electrical energy than it eventually
puts out. All that's required for a CF cell to be self sustaining is that
it puts out more electrical energy than is put into it, right Jed?

> 
> Get it?
> 

Not quite ,Lynn.

Jim O.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 11:56:50 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05724;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:52:47 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:52:47 -0700
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:53:09 -0700
Message-Id: <199807221853.LAA10659 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Proceeding Carefully in O/U . . .
Resent-Message-ID: <"dzBfq2.0.EP1.zJZjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20772
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


>>     That *is* what self sustaining means, isn't it Jed?
>>
>>No, it isn't. There is no scientific justification for demanding the cell
>work
>>"month after month" or "year after year." This is an example of an impossible
>>goal. 
>
>Well, Jed, yes it is. Apparently, under your definition, a good battery is
>self sustaining. After all, it will power a small bulb for days or weeks.
>Your claim that CF is self-sustaining deserves a snide retort. I did not
>"set the goal" of self-sustaining for CF, you claimed that it was already
>there which is patently false.

You, Lynn, are failing to grasp the constraints and goals of the CF effort.
Hot fusion nuclear reactors can become self sustaining in the sense that
they generate more energy than it costs to make them run.  That is what  the
term "self sustaining" is taken to mean in this industry.  The term is used
to say that "proof" of nuclear processes being involved in generating the
heat is via the construction of a generator that produces energy that is far
more than could be accounted for via chemical reactions, such that the heat
is used to drive a generator turbine, the electricity from the generator is
used to drive the motors in the CF device, and so the device is then
powering itself.........until the nuclear fuel runs out.

Such a device is said to be "self sustaining", meaning, it is producing heat
power out, with no energy being driven in.  

Your definition would be that of a perpetual motion machine, ie, something
that runs forever without any fuel source, ie Minato motor as a possible
candidate.

Most scientists on vortex consider that all of the devices have energy
coming from "somewhere".  Whether we know where that is from or not is
another question.  
But Lynn, you are out of line in your discourse as you have missed the point
of the efforts being put foward.  CF opponents claim that there isn't even
any excess heat being produced, and that all such claims are the result of
poor measurement technique.  

Therefore, the goal that CF opponents set for CF proponents was to construct
a "self sustaining" reactor.  Meaning, a reactor that you couple the heat
produced to a generator and then drive any required electrical pumps or
other devices so that it is entirely self contained, but producing power in
quantities that can only be coming from nuclear processes.  Then, and only
then, will the opponents concede that CF is due to some real nuclear process.

Ross Tessien

>Get it?

do you get it?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 12:17:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11374;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:08:54 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:08:54 -0700
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:02:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Comments ... Proceeding Carefully in O/U . . .
In-Reply-To: <199807221853.LAA10659 Au.oro.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980722145128.2763F-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"aF7d52.0.bn2.5ZZjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20773
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



	Dear Vo.,

	I have to say "O/U" has many meanings.  Some general comments:

	Maybe:

	Before we knew hoe radioactivity worked [not that we do now, per 
se], it would seem as O/U.  Is it?  Or should it and all other "O/U" be 
looked at is ... how many dollars in VS how many dollars worth of 
'juice' out?

	If we look at burning wood.... it seems, in essence, the sun 
drives this.  Again one may look at wood, coal and oil as $ VS juice 
and "it came from the sun.

	Coal, wood and radioactivity are used, to a lesser degree so are 
fuel cells, solar photovoltaic, geothermal.

	Maybe we should sort of try to agree on "general" boxes to put 
the various in.

	There might be some capitalist-angels lurking, of being apprised 
by contributors.  One or more of these may find a 'useful' box to fit in, 
or to put money in.  To me it seems many investigators are 'limping 
along' with few funds.

	A more coherent set of 'boxes' may hurt, may help.... but if even 
ONE far thinking capital source teams with one potential method that 
works "OK" ... on $ V jiuce ... or some other parameter.... and it comes 
to completion, then I think we all benefit.

	I, for one, want to see "us win"....

	PS:  Any angel can write to ME! :) !
		

					JHS


	PPS:  Cooperation works better than hard words.... or so I have found.	

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 12:22:29 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13620;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:17:56 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:17:56 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980722151253.007e9a30 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:12:53 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Proceeding Carefully in O/U . . .
In-Reply-To: <199807221629.JAA29721 smtp1.asu.edu>
References: <199807221055_MC2-53DF-3597 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"ingG71.0.cK3.ZhZjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20774
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


  'Self-Sustaining' may be somewhat of a red herring, in systems
which involve both heat and mass transfer 
with its environment.

  We define OVERUNITY (O/U) in cold fusion systems
(electrolytic PdH and NiH systems)
as a power gain > 1.0, where
1.0 characterizes an ohmic heater, and where noise
power levels and energy storage have been 
considered and found not to apply.

  The output in these systems is mostly thermal, but we get
electricity out in some configurations.
When our electric power out exceeds the electric
power in, that is BREAKEVEN.

   Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 12:37:09 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA01368;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:30:10 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:30:10 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980722142223.00cc6edc mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:22:23 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: EarthTech calling Mercury, come in!
In-Reply-To: <199807211851_MC2-53C4-1B2F compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"pMnsn2.0.BL.ysZjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20775
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 18:07 7/21/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>..........moving the cell to the
>surface of Mercury, you could hold the temperature high with no electrical
>input.

If you had an ambient temperature of 180C and that happened to be the
temperature that stimulated the excess heat reaction then, yes, any amount
of excess heat would produce a self-sustaining reaction.

But Case's original apparatus, operated here on Earth, required about 50
watts to reach 180C and then it produced a temperature anomaly that looked
like a 7-10 watt excess heat.  His original apparatus therefore could not
self-sustain.

My whole point in this relatively pointless discussion is that I could take
Case's original apparatus and put it in our Versatile Water-Flow
Calorimeter and learn whether or not the apparent excess heat was real
excess heat.

Mitchell said it well:

>  Self sustaining is substituting a more complicated arrangement
>in place of experimental science.
>
>  There is a lot of good work that can be done with these materials
>BEFORE one approaches a self-sustaining system.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 15:10:21 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24959;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:07:25 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:07:25 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:55:48 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: "Self sustain" definition
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807221758_MC2-53E9-A474 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"Bgbpa2.0.v56.QAcjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20777
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; Lynn Kurtz >INTERNET:kurtz imap2.asu.edu

There is some confusion here about the term "self-sustain." Lynn Kurtz defines
it one way, I define it another. Let me spell out what I mean when I use this
term. First, quoting Kurtz:

     Apparently, under your definition, a good battery is self sustaining.
     After all, it will power a small bulb for days or weeks.

Yes, an electrochemical battery is a self-sustaining chemical reaction. Take a
lump of coal and expose it to a flame. It will first heat up, then burn. After
it reaches a critical temperature you get another self sustaining chemical
reaction. The uranium oxide in a TEG undergoes a self sustaining nuclear
reaction. A tokamak fusion reactor is a *non* self-sustaining nuclear
reaction; it requires continuous energy from outside. It is exothermic, but
not self sustaining. Some chemical and nuclear reactions require continuous
energy input. They are not self-sustaining.

If a tokamak could be made efficient enough, the energy from it could be
converted to electricity which would be used in turn to keep the entire
machine working. This is self sustaining by engineering means. Uranium oxide
requires no engineering or external energy transfers; it stays hot by itself.

Kurtz brings up another, separate issue here: energy storage. A rechargeable
battery will only output as much energy as you store in the first place, in
reversible half-reactions under external emf (like PbSO4 => Pb on the cathode,
PbO2 on the anode, and H2SO4 in the soup.) A lump of coal will output as much
energy as the tree stored by photosynthesis before the coal was formed.
Uranium oxide will output as much energy as you get in the nuclear
transmutations from U to Pb. I suppose you could say this energy was "stored"
in the U when the exploding supernova synthesized it from lighter elements. CF
will output as much energy as some other set of nuclear transmutations
generate. Nobody know what those transmutations are yet, so we do not know how
much energy a given mass of reactants can produce.


     In case you are still having difficulty understanding the concept, here
     are a couple of examples to help you out (neither of which exist,
     unfortunately):

     A Minato like motor generator powers itself, and maybe a 100W bulb,
     sustaining itself and running until the bearings wear out. That is
     (would be) self sustaining.

Quite right, and it might also be a violation of mass-energy conservation. It
sounds like it would be . . .  That is a third, unrelated issue.


     A beautiful large CF cell produces hundreds of watts which is used to
     heat water in a domestic hot water heater and supplies the household's
     hot water for 10 years, at which time the Nuclear fuel (or whatever
     unexplained process it is) is exhausted. This is one of CF's holy
     grails, but it is not self sustaining. The fuel is eventually used up.
     Like a battery.

Exactly right. But there is no scientific justification for demanding
"hundreds of watts." One or 2 watts can be measured with as much confidence as
2,000 watts, and 2 watts will prove that CF is not chemical just as surely as
2,000 or 2 million will. Power integrated over time equals energy, and when
the energy adds up to much more than a chemical reaction can produce, you are
home free and you know it must be CF. As I have so often said, a match will
not burn for a week. It will not burn for an hour or even ten minutes, at a
measurable rate of combustion. If you can detect a watt or more heat coming
from a half-gram metal object with no input, and it continues for an hour, you
know it has exceeded the limits of chemistry. It does not have to produce 500
watts or go for 6 months. One hour at 1 watt should convince anyone.

Beautiful CF cells in household hot water heaters do not exist, as Kurtz says,
but beautiful cells that output 2 watts, 20 watts, and 250 watts *do* exist.
Kurtz denies that. He says "unfortunately they do not exist." They exist, but
he refuses to look at them. He thinks that by denying and denying and denying
he can change reality. He says, correctly, this argument of mine is ad hominem
-- an attack on the man. It *is* ad hominem. People who refuse to read the
literature deserve to be attacked. That's a lousy way to debate. Suppose I
gave a lecture at a conference about the effects of Japanese word processing
on education, and Kurtz walked in after I finished. Suppose that without
knowing a damn thing about that subject, or a word of Japanese, he started
making raucous, disruptive, nasty comments and cutting remarks, claiming that
the Japanese don't have word processing and they don't have schools either,
nya, nya! "It would be beautiful if they did have word processing but
unfortunately the subject of this lecture does not exist." The audience would
tell him to shut up. People would think he is drunk or acting out a Monty
Python script. He would never dare disrupt a Japanese language forum with this
kind of nonsense. Yet he does that here with impunity. I have posted a series
of carefully researched, quantitative claims based on a careful reading of the
peer-reviewed scientific literature. Perhaps I has misinterpreted these
papers, or perhaps the papers are mistaken. Kurtz could take the trouble to
review the literature. He might respond by pointing out specific errors or
subtle aspects of calorimetry which escaped the attention of Pons and
Fleischmann, McKubre and the others who observed heat after death. I would
have no objection to carefully worded, informed *scientific critiques*, even
if I thought they were incorrect.

On this same subject, Jim Ostrowski writes:

     Wait a minute . as much as I disagree with Jed about a lot of things a
     battery has to be charged with more electrical energy than it eventually
     puts out. All that's required for a CF cell to be self sustaining is
     that it puts out more electrical energy than is put into it, right Jed?

Well . . . yes but . . . It isn't "charged" in the usual sense of the word.
There is no significant energy storage. A blank cell outputs exactly as much
energy as you put in, no more, no less. There is a tiny amount of energy
storage at the beginning (an endothermic reaction), as hydride is formed.
There is a corresponding small, slow release of energy at the end of the run,
as some of the hydrogen comes out. But this storage is insignificant compared
to CF excess heat. With a CF cell, there is the same small endothermic
reaction at the beginning, followed by a long period in which output exactly
balances input. Everything balances out perfectly up to this point -- there is
no excess, and no charging -- no storage. Then you get a small thermal excess.
If you are lucky, the excess increases every time you put a heat pulse into
the cell. (This pulse is an essential step in the protocol, by the way.) Then
you heat the cathode up to 80 or 90 deg C in a three minute pulse, and if you
are very lucky, it goes into what Pons and Fleischmann call "fully ignited,
heat-after-death" mode. Heat is essential to CF, and in this mode it
self-heats. The heat generated by the reaction sustains the nuclear reaction,
just as the heat from a burning lump of coal sustains the chemical reaction.
You can turn off all outside sources of electrolysis energy, leave the cell
alone, and it will remain hot indefinitely, for hours, days or weeks. It stays
hot until much of the gas comes out of solution with the metal (until it
de-gases). This is what I would call the self-sustaining phase. It is
important to realize that any CF cell can and must self sustain when you first
turn off electrolysis, because it cannot de-gas instantly.

You always experience some level of heat-after-death, although it may not
dramatically exceed the limits of chemistry. I mean that if the cell is
producing excess heat at the moment electrolysis ceases, the cooling curve
will not fit Newton's law. Getting some heat after death is not a problem; in
Mizuno's case, the problem was getting the thing to shut off. The only sure
method is to cool the cathode down. It is best done quickly, creating a
thermal shock, which is the opposite of the heat pulse that triggers the
event. Mizuno was unable to subject his 100 gram cathode to a quick thermal
shock, so he put the whole cell in a large bucket of cold water, and he kept
adding water for ten days, vaporizing 37.5 liters of water. That is how he
knew how much energy it produced. Needless to say, you cannot vaporize 37
liters of water with a hundred grams of chemical fuel. 100 grams of the best
chemical fuel, octane, would vaporize only 1.6 liters of water.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 15:12:54 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24186;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:03:00 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:03:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: D-D hot fusion
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:55:28 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35b75fba.82188922 mail-hub>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"aDkCa3.0.qv5.I6cjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20776
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have two questions that I hope someone can answer definitively for
me, pertaining to D-D hot fusion.

1) Occasionally, a He4 nucleus is formed directly, which then emits a
gamma-ray of about 23.8 MeV. What is the measured width at half height
of this gamma?

2) There is AFAIK, a fixed ratio of the number of such gamma producing
reactions to the usual particle producing reactions. I have seen two
different ratios: 1/1E7 and 1/1E9. What is the actual measured value,
and does the measurement vary depending on the experiment?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 16:13:09 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03997;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:07:28 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:07:28 -0700
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:24:16 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: EarthTech calling Mercury, come in!
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807221827_MC2-53CB-CAB5 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"LC-RR.0.H-.l2djr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20778
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Scott Little writes:

     But Case's original apparatus, operated here on Earth, required about 50
     watts to reach 180C and then it produced a temperature anomaly that
     looked like a 7-10 watt excess heat.  His original apparatus therefore
     could not self-sustain.

Right, but with another cell configuration that 50 watts might be 5 or 500.
It's arbitrary, it depends on insulation. The power level is irrelevant. It is
the temperature that matters. The temperature elevation might come from an
electric heater or a burning Sterno can, or solar energy focused on the cell.
Actually, I think the best way to do this experiment would be to put the cell
in a Seebeck calorimeter, and then put the calorimeter and all into an oven.
Heat the entire thing to 200 deg C. You would see the heat flow past the
Seebeck barrier into the cell. You would see it equalize (no flow either way.)
Then, if the cell produced heat, you would see heat flowing the other way,
from cell through Seebeck, into the oven. The oven would then take less power
to remain at the same temperature.

I should have made it clear that with *other* kinds of CF, input power *is* a
critical parameter. Scott's hypothesis may be correct about electrochemical
CF. Perhaps you can only get 30% of input with some materials, and the
reaction cannot be made self-sustaining.


     My whole point in this relatively pointless discussion . . .

It is not pointless! This is a critical difference between gas loading and
other methods.



     I could take Case's original apparatus and put it in our Versatile
     Water-Flow Calorimeter and learn whether or not the apparent excess heat
     was real excess heat.

I think putting this cell in a water flow calorimeter might disrupt cell
performance, unless the water was pressurized and held at 200 deg C. I think a
Seebeck calorimeter would be a much better choice for a hot gas system.


     Mitchell said it well:

     >  Self sustaining is substituting a more complicated arrangement
     >in place of experimental science.
     >
     >  There is a lot of good work that can be done with these materials
     >BEFORE one approaches a self-sustaining system.

That remains to be seen, doesn't it? If Case succeeds, Mitchell will be wrong.

As I pointed out, any gas loaded system is self sustaining. In a sense people
like Arata, Piantelli, Mizuno and Oriani (with proton conductors) already
demonstrated self sustaining systems, years ago. Unfortunately these systems
have not been widely researched or replicated, and the heat flux was usually
so small it required sensitive instruments to detect. On some occasions it was
not small. Mizuno once input 80 microwatts, triggered a gas reaction, and
melted a ceramic block. That is definitely excess heat, way beyond chemistry.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 17:40:10 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27201;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:32:31 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:32:31 -0700
Message-ID: <006101bdb5d0$d46ed420$8cb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: United States Patent 5,778,972 (http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:28:09 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDB59E.7A9B4BE0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"MhbrT1.0.xe6.VIejr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20779
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDB59E.7A9B4BE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=20

[USPTO]=20
       ( 1 of 226 )=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
United States Patent  5,778,972=20
            Sapru, et. al. Jul. 14, 1998=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Robust metal hydride hydrogen storage system with metal hydride support =
structure Inventors:  Sapru; Krishna (Troy, MI); Venkatesan; Srinivasan =
(Southfield, MI); Stetson; Ned T. (Auburn Hills, MI); Rangaswamy; =
Krishnaswamy (Clarendon Hills, IL). =20
            Assignee:  Energy Coversion Devices, Inc. (Troy, MI). =20
            Appl. No.:  623,497=20
            Filed:  Mar. 28, 1996=20
Intl. Cl. :  F28D 15/00=20
            Current U.S. Cl.:  =20
            Field of Search:  137/575, 592, 571; 165/104.12; 62/46.2, =
48.1, 480=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

References Cited | [Referenced By]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

U.S. Patent Documents
1,787,916 Jan., 1931 Polson et al. 137/575=20
            3,516,263 Jun., 1970 Wiswall, Jr. et al. 62/48.3=20
            3,863,664 Feb., 1975 Holbrook et al. 137/571 X=20
            3,960,174 Jun., 1976 Latimer et al. 137/575 X=20
            4,383,606 May, 1983 Hunter 62/46.2=20
            4,396,114 Aug., 1983 Golben et al. 165/104.12 X=20
            4,548,044 Oct., 1985 Sakai et al. 165/104.12 X=20
            5,056,318 Oct., 1991 Yonesaki et al. 62/46.2=20
   =20

Foreign Patent Documents
0047989 Mar., 1983 JP 165/104.12=20
            0164994 Sept., 1983 JP 165/104.12=20
            0205190 Oct., 1985 JP 165/104.12=20
            0180798 Jul., 1988 JP 62/46.2=20
            5263996 Oct., 1993 JP 62/46.2=20
            1105719 Jul., 1984 SU 62/46.2=20
   =20
Primary Examiner: Rivell; John
Assistant Examiner: Atkiinson; Christopher
Attorney, Agent or Firm: Siskind; Marvin S., Schumaker; David W., Luddy; =
Marc J.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Abstract

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

A modular metal hydride hydrogen storage system which can provide a =
robust and reliable source of hydrogen that can quickly and easily be =
modified for a variety of applications and environments. The hydrogen =
storage system comprises at least one storage module. Each storage =
module comprises a container having at least one open end, a metal =
hydride hydrogen storage means, means for introducing gaseous hydrogen =
into and withdrawing gaseous hydrogen from the container, and means for =
connecting storage modules together end-to-end to form a plurality of =
storage modules.=20


19 Claims, 8 Drawing Figures

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

[USPTO]=20
       ( 1 of 226 )=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------


------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDB59E.7A9B4BE0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>United States Patent =
5,778,972</TITLE><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+26260+=
4+6+81350+OF+1+226+1+%22Hydrogen+Storage%22><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><A name=3Dtop></A>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/help/help.html"><IMG =
alt=3D[Help]=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/help.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/index.html"><IMG alt=3D[Home] =
border=3D0 height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/home.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-bool.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Boolean Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/boolean.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-adv.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D[Advanced] border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/advanced.gif" =
width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-num.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Number Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/number.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptcs/"><IMG =
alt=3D"[Order Copy]"=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/copy.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptdl/"><IMG alt=3D[PTDLs] border=3D0 =
height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/ptdl.gif" width=3D63></A> </CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> </CENTER>
<TABLE border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40>&nbsp; </TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+26260=
+4+-1+-1+OF+2+226+1+%22Hydrogen+Storage%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Next Patent]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/next.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilist4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+26260+=
226+OF+1+4+%22Hydrogen+Storage%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Back to List]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/list.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dbottom width=3D500><FONT size=3D-1>(=20
            <STRONG>1</STRONG></FONT> <FONT size=3D-2>of</FONT> =
<STRONG><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>226</STRONG> )</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>

<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>United States Patent </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>5,778,972</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>Sapru, et. al.</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>Jul. 14, =
1998</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>
<B>Robust metal hydride <B><I>hydrogen storage</I></B> system with metal =
hydride=20
support structure </B>
<TABLE>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Inventors: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Sapru; Krishna</B> (Troy, MI); =
<B>Venkatesan;=20
            Srinivasan</B> (Southfield, MI); <B>Stetson; Ned T.</B> =
(Auburn=20
            Hills, MI); <B>Rangaswamy; Krishnaswamy</B> (Clarendon =
Hills, IL).=20
</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Assignee: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Energy Coversion Devices, Inc.</B> (Troy, =
MI). </TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Appl. No.: </TD>
        <TD><B>623,497</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Filed: </TD>
        <TD><B>Mar. 28, 1996</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Intl. Cl. : </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>F28D 15/00</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Current U.S. Cl.: </B><!--CCL =
Hit--></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Field of Search: =
</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>137</B>/575, 592, =
571;=20
            <B>165</B>/104.12; <B>62</B>/46.2, 48.1, =
480</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>References Cited | <A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ref_srch4?INDEX+0+5778972+F">[Re=
ferenced=20
By]</A></B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER>U.S. Patent Documents</CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D90%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>1,787,916</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jan., 1931</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Polson et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>137</B>/575</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,516,263</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1970</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Wiswall, Jr. et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>62</B>/48.3</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,863,664</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Feb., 1975</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Holbrook et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>137</B>/571 <B>X</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+3960174+F">3,960,=
174</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1976</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Latimer et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>137</B>/575 <B>X</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4383606+F">4,383,=
606</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>May, 1983</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Hunter</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>62</B>/46.2</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4396114+F">4,396,=
114</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Aug., 1983</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Golben et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>165</B>/104.12 =
<B>X</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4548044+F">4,548,=
044</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Oct., 1985</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Sakai et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>165</B>/104.12 =
<B>X</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+5056318+F">5,056,=
318</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Oct., 1991</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Yonesaki et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright =
width=3D25%><B>62</B>/46.2</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER>Foreign Patent Documents</CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D90%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>0047989</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Mar., 1983</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>JP</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%>165/104.12</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>0164994</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Sept., 1983</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>JP</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%>165/104.12</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>0205190</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Oct., 1985</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>JP</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%>165/104.12</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>0180798</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jul., 1988</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>JP</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%>62/46.2</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>5263996</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Oct., 1993</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>JP</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%>62/46.2</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>1105719</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jul., 1984</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>SU</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright =
width=3D25%>62/46.2</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER><I>Primary=20
Examiner: </I>Rivell; John<BR><I>Assistant Examiner: </I>Atkiinson;=20
Christopher<BR><I>Attorney, Agent or Firm: </I>Siskind; Marvin S., =
Schumaker;=20
David W., Luddy; Marc J.<BR>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>Abstract</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<P>A modular metal hydride <B><I>hydrogen storage</I></B> system which =
can=20
provide a robust and reliable source of hydrogen that can quickly and =
easily be=20
modified for a variety of applications and environments. The =
<B><I>hydrogen=20
storage</I></B> system comprises at least one storage module. Each =
storage=20
module comprises a container having at least one open end, a metal =
hydride=20
<B><I>hydrogen storage</I></B> means, means for introducing gaseous =
hydrogen=20
into and withdrawing gaseous hydrogen from the container, and means for=20
connecting storage modules together end-to-end to form a plurality of =
storage=20
modules.=20
<P>
<CENTER><B>19 Claims, </B><B>8 Drawing Figures</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> </CENTER>
<TABLE border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40>&nbsp; </TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+26260=
+4+-1+-1+OF+2+226+1+%22Hydrogen+Storage%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Next Patent]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/next.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilist4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+26260+=
226+OF+1+4+%22Hydrogen+Storage%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Back to List]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/list.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dbottom width=3D500><FONT size=3D-1>(=20
            <STRONG>1</STRONG></FONT> <FONT size=3D-2>of</FONT> =
<STRONG><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>226</STRONG> )</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>
</BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDB59E.7A9B4BE0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 17:47:53 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29625;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:42:15 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:42:15 -0700
Message-ID: <006801bdb5d2$31e20ea0$8cb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: United States Patent 5,093,101 (http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:37:59 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01BDB59F.DA601780"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"0XUCV1.0.pE7.dRejr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20780
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BDB59F.DA601780
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=20

[USPTO]=20
      ( 115 of 226 )=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
United States Patent  5,093,101=20
            Knott, et. al. Mar. 3, 1992=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Method for the preparation of active magnesium =
hydride-magnesium-hydrogen storage systems and apparatus for carrying =
out the method Inventors:  Knott; Wilfried (Essen, DE); Klein; =
Klaus-Dieter (Siegen, DE); Koerner; Gotz (Essen, DE). =20
            Assignee:  Th. Goldschmidt AG (Essen, DE). =20
            Appl. No.:  738,892=20
            Filed:  Aug. 1, 1991=20
   =20

Foreign Application Priority Data
Sept. 4, 1990 [DE]  4027976=20
   =20
Intl. Cl. :  C01B 6/04=20
            Current U.S. Cl.:  423/647; 422/110; 422/189; 422/225=20
            Field of Search:  422/189, 110, 225; 423/647=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

References Cited | [Referenced By]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

U.S. Patent Documents
2,401,323 Jun., 1946 Alexander 423/647=20
            2,401,326 Jun., 1046 Archibald et al. 423/647=20
            3,743,711 Jul., 1973 Rogler et al. 423/647=20
            4,559,202 Dec., 1985 Luetzelschwab 422/189=20
            5,026,527 Jun., 1991 Krijgsman 422/110=20
   =20

Foreign Patent Documents
0112548 Jul., 1984 EP =20
   =20
    Other References
    Journal of the Less-Common Metals, 158 (1990) pp. L1-L7, by P. =
Selvam and B. Viswanathan and V. Srinivasan.=20


Primary Examiner: Langel; Wayne
Attorney, Agent or Firm: Toren, McGeady & Associates

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Abstract

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

A method for the preparation of active magnesium =
hydride-magnesium-hydrogen storage systems, which absorb hydrogen =
reversibly is disclosed. Finely divided magnesium is doped with nickel =
for this purpose. A pressure reactor is charged with a mixture of finely =
divided magnesium and an amount of nickel sufficient for the doping. =
Tetracarbonyl nickel is produced in the pressure reactor and =
subsequently decomposed. Carbon monoxide is then withdrawn from the =
pressure reactor and the doped magnesium obtained is hydrogenated at =
temperature of >=3D300 deg. C. and elevated pressure.=20


7 Claims, 1 Drawing Figures

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

[USPTO]=20
      ( 115 of 226 )=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------


------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BDB59F.DA601780
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>United States Patent =
5,093,101</TITLE><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+26260+=
4+3+123780+OF+115+226+101+%22Hydrogen+Storage%22><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://patents.uspto.gov>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><A name=3Dtop></A>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/help/help.html"><IMG =
alt=3D[Help]=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/help.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/index.html"><IMG alt=3D[Home] =
border=3D0 height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/home.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-bool.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Boolean Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/boolean.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-adv.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D[Advanced] border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/advanced.gif" =
width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/access/search-num.html"><IMG=20
alt=3D"[Number Search]" border=3D0 height=3D24 =
src=3D"/include/number.gif"=20
width=3D63></A><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptcs/"><IMG =
alt=3D"[Order Copy]"=20
border=3D0 height=3D24 src=3D"/include/copy.gif" width=3D63></A><A=20
href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/go/ptdl/"><IMG alt=3D[PTDLs] border=3D0 =
height=3D24=20
src=3D"/include/ptdl.gif" width=3D63></A> </CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> </CENTER>
<TABLE border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+26260=
+4+-1+-1+OF+114+226+101+%22Hydrogen+Storage%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Previous Patent]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/prev.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+26260=
+4+-1+-1+OF+116+226+101+%22Hydrogen+Storage%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Next Patent]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/next.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilist4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+26260+=
226+OF+101+4+%22Hydrogen+Storage%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Back to List]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/list.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dbottom width=3D500><FONT size=3D-1>(=20
            <STRONG>115</STRONG></FONT> <FONT size=3D-2>of</FONT> =
<STRONG><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>226</STRONG> )</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>

<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>United States Patent </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>5,093,101</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D50%><B>Knott, et. al.</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>Mar. 3, =
1992</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>
<B>Method for the preparation of active magnesium=20
hydride-magnesium-<B><I>hydrogen storage</I></B> systems and apparatus =
for=20
carrying out the method </B>
<TABLE>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Inventors: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Knott; Wilfried</B> (Essen, DE); <B>Klein;=20
            Klaus-Dieter</B> (Siegen, DE); <B>Koerner; Gotz</B> (Essen, =
DE). </TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>Assignee: </TD>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><B>Th. Goldschmidt AG</B> (Essen, DE). =
</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Appl. No.: </TD>
        <TD><B>738,892</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD>Filed: </TD>
        <TD><B>Aug. 1, 1991</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P>
<CENTER><B>Foreign Application Priority Data</B></CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D80%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D100%>Sept. 4, 1990 [DE] </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright =
width=3D50%>4027976</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Intl. Cl. : </B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>C01B 6/04</B></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Current U.S. Cl.: </B><!--CCL =
Hit--></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D50%><B>423/647</B>; 422/110; 422/189;=20
422/225</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>Field of Search: =
</B></TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50%><B>422</B>/189, 110, =
225;=20
            <B>423</B>/647</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>References Cited | <A=20
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ref_srch4?INDEX+0+5093101+F">[Re=
ferenced=20
By]</A></B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER>U.S. Patent Documents</CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D90%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>2,401,323</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1946</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Alexander</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>423</B>/647</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>2,401,326</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1046</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Archibald et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>423</B>/647</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%>3,743,711</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jul., 1973</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Rogler et al.</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>423</B>/647</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+4559202+F">4,559,=
202</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Dec., 1985</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Luetzelschwab</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright width=3D25%><B>422</B>/189</TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD width=3D25%><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilink4?INDEX+0+5026527+F">5,026,=
527</A></TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jun., 1991</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>Krijgsman</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright =
width=3D25%><B>422</B>/110</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER>Foreign Patent Documents</CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE width=3D90%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>0112548</TD>
        <TD width=3D25%>Jul., 1984</TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft width=3D25%>EP</TD>
        <TD align=3Dright =
width=3D25%></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<DL>
    <DD>
    <CENTER>Other References</CENTER>
    <DD>
    <P>Journal of the Less-Common Metals, 158 (1990) pp. L1-L7, by P. =
Selvam and=20
    B. Viswanathan and V. Srinivasan. </P></DD></DL><BR><I>Primary =
Examiner:=20
</I>Langel; Wayne<BR><I>Attorney, Agent or Firm: </I>Toren, McGeady =
&amp;=20
Associates<BR>
<HR>

<CENTER><B>Abstract</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<P>A method for the preparation of active magnesium=20
hydride-magnesium-<B><I>hydrogen storage</I></B> systems, which absorb =
hydrogen=20
reversibly is disclosed. Finely divided magnesium is doped with nickel =
for this=20
purpose. A pressure reactor is charged with a mixture of finely divided=20
magnesium and an amount of nickel sufficient for the doping. =
Tetracarbonyl=20
nickel is produced in the pressure reactor and subsequently decomposed. =
Carbon=20
monoxide is then withdrawn from the pressure reactor and the doped =
magnesium=20
obtained is hydrogenated at temperature of &gt;=3D300<I> deg. </I>C. and =
elevated=20
pressure.=20
<P>
<CENTER><B>7 Claims, </B><B>1 Drawing Figures</B></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER><A href=3D"http://www.uspto.gov/">[USPTO]</A> </CENTER>
<TABLE border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+26260=
+4+-1+-1+OF+114+226+101+%22Hydrogen+Storage%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Previous Patent]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/prev.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dleft vAlign=3Dtop width=3D40><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ifetch4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+26260=
+4+-1+-1+OF+116+226+101+%22Hydrogen+Storage%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Next Patent]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/next.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dtop width=3D50><A=20
            =
href=3D"http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/ilist4?INDEX+PATBIB-ALL+0+26260+=
226+OF+101+4+%22Hydrogen+Storage%22"><IMG=20
            alt=3D"[Back to List]" border=3D0 height=3D30 =
src=3D"/include/list.gif"=20
            width=3D30></A> </TD>
        <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dbottom width=3D500><FONT size=3D-1>(=20
            <STRONG>115</STRONG></FONT> <FONT size=3D-2>of</FONT> =
<STRONG><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>226</STRONG> )</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR>
</BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BDB59F.DA601780--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 18:14:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02636;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:05:03 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:05:03 -0700
Message-ID: <007601bdb5d5$5f9677c0$8cb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Hydrogen Storage Technology, No O-U?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:01:01 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"QUy0t2.0.xe.-mejr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20781
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Solar and Wind "Free Energy" NEEDS Reliable
Storage, and Electrolysis of Water looks like the best way to go.

Out of the 226 hits on Hydrogen Storage, there was no mention of Over-Unity
even with storage
where the hydrogen was over 7% of the weight of
the storage alloy.

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 18:54:27 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12561;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:49:35 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:49:35 -0700
Message-ID: <008001bdb5db$9a2938e0$8cb4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Methane Conversion Patents
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:44:58 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"aY6gF1.0.343.kQfjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20782
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Check these out, Robin. 4,921,685 & 5,246,550.

MIT folks run methane over MgO at 1400 C and up, makes Magnesium
Carbide,Mg2C3 that can be reacted with water to get propyene.

The CO can be shifted to Hydrogen and CO2, and the CO2 can be separated with
a molecular sieve and the Hydrogen can be stored.

I'm wondering if the Mg2C3 can be Hydrogenated to store Hydrogen,too?

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 19:16:53 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15903;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:07:22 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:07:22 -0700
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199807230207.VAA28983 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Chubb web site
To: vortex-l eskimo.com (vortex-l)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:07:43 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ci6S72.0.Lu3.Phfjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20783
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dr. Scott Chubb asked me to put a link up on my web page to his and
Talbot Chubb's web site.  Since I haven't updated my web page in
seven months, I figure I'd spare anybody the bother of going and
getting that one sole new entry there by posting the Chubb web
site here:

            http://www.angelfire.com/va/schubb

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 19:29:37 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19954;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:23:44 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:23:44 -0700
Message-ID: <35B69076.1AFA earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:26:44 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Murray: Iwamura critique  7.22.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"SuzsL1.0.Zt4.kwfjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20784
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July 22, 1998
Rich Murray
Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103
rmforall earthlink.net

Yesterday, Los Alamos National Lab Library received the July "Fusion
Technology," with "Detection of anamolous elements, x-ray, and excess
heat in a D2-Pd system and its interpretation by the electron-induced
nuclear reaction model," Y. Iwamura [iwamura atrc.mhi.co.jp], T. Itoh,
N. Gotoh, I. Toyoda, "Fusion Technology, 33, July, 1998, p. 476-492,
Received Sept. 8, 1997, Advanced Technology Research Center, Mitsubishi
Heavy Industries, Ltd, 1-8-1, Sachiura, Kanazawa-ku, Yokohama 236,
Japan.

On May 8, Eliot Kennel [ekennel compuserve.com], an experienced
researcher who had spent two years working closely with CF researchers
in Japan, posted a long and detailed critical summary of ICCF-7: "I was
disappointed by a presentation by Ohmori, in which he claimed that some
anomalous effect occurred during high current electrolysis, at which
point the electrode becomes hot and generates a plasma.  A fantastic
neutron flux (106 n/sec) was claimed, but then Ohmori admitted that this
might be due to electromagnetic noise from the plasma.  Since he is not
dead from radiation poisoning, the latter explanation is likely.  It
seems to me that this is probably nothing more than the burnout heat
flux (at a certain point, the heat transfer coefficient decreases, which
causes the surface to heat up, which causes the heat transfer
coefficient to further decrease, and so on.  This causes flash boiling,
similar to what Ohmori observed).  The low quality of this paper frankly
shocked me, and may cause me to re-evaluate the isotope shift papers by
the Hokkaido University group.  My confidence in their research has been
thoroughly shaken.   Similarly, the work of the Iwamura group at
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) was disappointing, as they reported
non-reproducible results which have the definite appearance of
electronic noise.  Several papers from China also fit into this
category."   

Iwamura et al apply 20-40 W from a round 1.2 cm Pt anode to a square Pd
cathode, 25X25X1 mm, at 1-3A in a 1 M LiOD/D2O electrolyte for week-long
runs.  The bottom side of the Pd cathode mounts to a vacuum chamber with
an O-ring gasket.  The cell seems to be about 6 cm diameter, if their
drawing is to scale, with the vacuum chamber 4 cm high, and the cell 5.5
cm high.  A Pt recombiner was tested to be >99 % efficient.  Five turns
of a cooling tube, perhaps stainless steel, plated with 10 micron Au,
conducts "pure water" for mass flow calorimetry.  At the start of each
run, Ar gas is put above the electrolyte at 1 atm.  The vacuum pumping
speed of the turbo molecular pump is 50 L/s-- is that constant?  The
electrolytic cell is Teflon, with all its internal parts coated with
sprayed Teflon.  The composition of the vacuum cell is not given.    
Two NaI scintillation counters monitor the cell from outside, while in
the vacuum a third one is mounted in the base, pointing about 2 cm from
the Pd cathode.  A He-3 neutron detector is outside the base of the
cell.  Data are logged every 20 s, and the energy spectrum of X rays
every 6 hours.  Pressures in the cell and in the vacuum are monitored,
and used to estimate the loading of the Pd, which reaches .8 in a day
[8.64X10E4 s], but no independent measures of loading are given.  

Fig. 3 shows two graphs of electrolytic vs vacuum pressures, for two
almost identical 3.3 day runs.  Page 479: "However, it is easy to see
that the absorpion and desorpion of deuterium are entirely different,
which suggests that the absorpion and desorption behavior of deuterium
is greatly influenced by unspecified factors,i.e. , metallurgical
conditions such as impurity and defects in Pd."

I think I know what the "unspecified factors" are-- leaks.  EV29 shows a
leak that lets gas into the vacuum, producing a steady state pressure,
regardless of increasing electrolytic pressure.  The trace becomes a
thick line, indicating a rapidly fluctuating leak.  EV34 shows an
initial leak that somehow got plugged, allowing the vacuum to be
restored.

We've run into O-ring seals recently, with the ill-fated Cincinnati
Group.  A little thermal expansion, some reuse of the apparatus, and,
voila!, data stew!  Pd is well known to expand and crack with high
loading.

Probably, they have only one possible case of an element anomaly: Ti on
the electrolytic surface of palladium sample EV27.  Toward the end of my
three-hour session, I realized, with a distinct shock, that the cooling
tube, probably Cu or stainless steel, plated with a delicate 10 micron
Au film, wound five times around the perimeter of the electrolyte, was
perhaps 80 cm long, with surface area about 40--100 cm2.  I suppose the
cell was used again and again, and with an accumulation of scratchs,
electrochemical corrosion between the gold and the metal would release
all kinds of ions during the days of operation.  They found a layer of
stuff, full of Ti, with a thickness from .2 to 3 microns, a 15-fold
range, in a disk of deposition 1.2 cm wide, which had, "...estimated
increased Ti mass is about 21 micrograms."   It could just as easily be
five-fold less. Why not do a chemical extraction and assey to determine
the exact mass of Ti?

Page 482: "Of course, we did not add any Ti to the electrolyte or the Pd
and Pt electrodes."   But, what if an overzealous underling did?  These
things happen.

The calorimetry is inadequate, with no insulation mentioned or
depicted, and the 25X25X1 mm Pd cathode freely radiating any excess heat
into the vacuum chamber, with a large heat sink, a cylinder of Pb
(mass?) with 2.5 cm thick walls.  Table III lists the largest Excess
Heat as: max 3.2 W, about 7.5 to 15 % of the "20W to 40W" input power
range-- but this seems to be just a temporary fluctuation.  Fig. 8 has a
histogram of excess heat distributions, showing values ranging from +3.5
to -1.5 W, for sample EV39, giving a mean of +1.14 W, a spurious 3-digit
accuracy.  The statistical significance of this value is not given.

The method for calculating D/Pd loading very much needs to be checked
by independent measurements.  Probably, the loading would vary greatly
across the plate, which could be a good feature, if reactions happen
only at certain values.  They assume, for one, that the flow is not
spotty across the plate.  

The X-ray data on p. 480 is their strongest suit-- but is there only one
case of radiation below the cathode plate?  Days of 50 counts per second
bursts sound convincing at first, but there seems to be no replication
available in their data set.  Did they try and fail to replicate the
X-ray result?  Fig. 5 of "Simultanous detection" by the two NaI
detectors might be from sparks and glow discharges from minute leakage
of D2, D2O, and Ar.  Only an interval of .2 from 1.55 to 1.75 X 10E5  s
is shown, and the matching lines are in an interval of .03 from about
1.65 to 1.68 X 10E5 s, from a run perhaps as long as 6 X 10E5 s. This is
rather select data, considering the novelty and importance of the claim.

Table II shows via ICP/MS a large range for the largest impurity, Fe, in
three used Pd cathode samples:  260, 210, 30 ppm.  Nothing is said about
this, while much is made of the 8-fold excess of Ti for sample EV
27.  What is the actual amount of the cathode analyzed?  Of the eight
impurities from three used Pd cathodes, namely, Ca, Ti, Cr, Fe, Ni Cu,
Pt, and Au, only Fe, Cu, and Au are higher in one or two of the used
samples than in the two unused samples: these three elements may come
from the cooling tube, which may be copper or stainless steel, plated
with a frail 10 micron layer of Au.

Page 486: "Another point to consider is that Ti atoms are not always
detected.  Sometimes, other elements are found, such as Si, Au, Pb, Cr,
Cu, Fe, and so on; and sometimes, no elements are detected even though
the experimental conditions are almost the same.  In addition, the
quantities of the detected elements vary.  As is visible to the naked
eye, the shades of the black circle are different every time; sometimes
the circle corresponding to the shape of the Pt anode looks brown or
metallic."  Stainless steel can supply Si, Cr, Cu, and Fe.  Complex,
variable corrosion of the cooling tube and other components can
inexplicably supply various impurities over the several dozen or so
runs.  
 
I will now move through the report in sequence:

Electrolyte:  mass, Ph, volume, accumulation of impurities?

Palladium plate: mass, before and after runs?  Shape changes, corrosion,
subtle leaks?

Recombiner: mass, trace elements?

Cooling pipe: dimensions, composition, mass before and after runs, trace
elements in cooling pipe and Au film, corrosion, subtle leaks?

Coolant flow rate:  values, constancy, accuracy of measurement,
exact composition of fluid, how long used, mass, trace elements, any
accumulation of impurities over time, exposure of fluid to heat sources
and impurities outside the cell, bubbles, suds?  Accumulated gunk that
slows down the pump?

Thermocouples: type, accuracy, constancy, placement inside cooling tube
or on outside, insulation, actual values for solution, gas, recombiner? 

Teflon: mass before and after runs, condition after runs, any deposits
of gunk or absorbed gases, actual permeability of sprayed Teflon on
wires, shape changes, thermal expansion, subtle leaks?  How often is
cell reused?  Scott Little in testing the CETI RIFEX cell, found that
impurities from one run could contaminate successive runs.

Pressure in electrolyte and vacuum: accuracy, actual values, constancy,
any evidence of subtle leaks?

A subtle leak could release D2, D2O, and Ar into the vacuum.  Any mass
or shape changes in the O-ring gasket?  Was the gasket reused?  Did its
appearance change?  Teflon is an excellent insulator-- any evidence for
static electricity buildup in the vacuum or on the Pb cylinder, or on
the outer surface of the cell, since glow, corona, or spark discharges
could cause spurious signals in the NaI detectors?  Any 10-100 volt
potentials available from the detectors or other electronics?

NaI scintillator abd He-3 neutron detectors: sensitivity at various
energies, reliability, known characteristic weaknesses, size and shape,
mass, voltages, actual background in detail throughout whole history of
experiments for years, calibration with known sources, diffusion and
attenuation of any radiation within and from cell, actual values and
history of electric noise?

Al, MgO, etc. coatings: purity, trace radioactivity?  K-40 is a common,
radioactive isotope.  Th-232?  How much did these coatings impede D2 gas
flow?

D/Pd ratio:  Any checks by other methods?  Accuracy,
reliability, precision, stability, fluctuations, impurity effects,
accumulation of impurities on plate and in electrolyte, size and shape
changes in plate due to high loading, subtle leaks, spotty flow through
plate, bubbles on plate, outgassing bursts, temperature spikes?

D/Pd analysis, Fig. 2:  One hour is 3.6 X 10E3 sec, one day is 8.64 X
10E4 sec.  What happens over the several days of the run?  What are the
exact values for a typical stretch of time?

X-ray events, Fig. 4:  Mean background (B.G.) 3.55 counts per sec, 17
counts per minute, which is 2.4 million counts in 600,000 sec.  Why the
lack of counts for a day during the middle of the week?  How many
cumulative counts are in the peaks that rise to as much as 60 counts per
sec?  The energy spectrum, total counts at each energy level (how wide
is this energy interval?) indicates 100,000 counts at about 10 keV,
which is 1 every 6 seconds, far below background, and about 1 count in
100 minutes at 50 keV, very far below background.  Above 100 keV the
signal merges into the background at ~1000 counts at each energy. How
typical is this kind of data pattern?  Page 479: "Note that a
characteristic X-ray (k-alpha, beta) of Pd (~21 keV) was not observed." 

How many samples were run, and how about summaries about each and every
run?

Simultaneous detection, Fig. 5: Page 480: "We observed this kind of
X-ray emission many times (more than 20).  In these cases, nuclear
reactions must occur on the electrolyte side of the Pd."  Linked
electronics, rf interference, sparks?  The background for # 2 is about
14 cps, and for # 3 about 15 cps.  Are the apparent coincidences the
only ones for this run?  Exactly how many other runs?  Detailed
coincident data for all 20+ runs?

Neutron data, Fig. 6:  Is the spike the only one in that run?  The two
X-ray graphs show background of 14 cps, and no X-ray coincidences for a
13.9 hour period.  There seems to be no credible evidence for any
neutron emission: page 480: "Figure 6 shows the correlation between
neutron and X-ray emission and indicates that the neutron and X-ray
emission do not correspond.  However, X-rays 2 and 3 are relatively high
when the neutron bursts. [sic]  It is considered that certain physical
conditions that cause nuclear reactions were satisfied at about the time
of the neutron bursts...Because of the weak correlation between the
neutrons and X rays [sic], in addition to the low reproducibility of
neutron emissions, it is certain that the neutrons and X rays [sic] are
produced by different nuclear reactions."  Fig. 6 shows a sharp neutron
count rate peak of 0.7 cps, above a background of about 0.05 to 0.1 cps:
the peak is an interval of about .1 X 10E5 s during an interval of 13.9
hours from 2.5 to 3.0 X 10E5 s.

Excess heat: Page 481:  "...therefore excess heat is a few percent of
the input power."  This a meaningless claim, unless the calorimetry is
extremely competent.  What are voltage, resistance, current, and input
power, and how precise and constant are these values? Any apparent
correlations are therefore meaningless. Increased current can raise the
temperature of the cell and cause all sorts of artifacts.  For instance,
bubble accumulation on the plate could cause apparent heat changes, and
sudden release of these bubbles can cause apparent heat bursts.  The
plate is horizontal.  How much stirring was caused by bubbling?  At 3 A,
the current density for a plate of 6.25 cm2 area is about .5 A per cm2.
Was the electrolyte stratified into different temperature zones at
times, and then stirred?  How great are the temperature differences
within the electrolyte at different times?

Fig. 8 shows a frequency histogram of excess heat.  Why a dip at 1.5 W? 
The comparison with the shape of the histogram for a different sample,
with a five-fold greater frequency, is without meaning. Using these
meaningless correlations, the authors say, page 481: "Up to now we
observed excess heat genberation several times; however, we could not
see any clear relations between excess heat generation and X-ray
emission...Judging from these results, we might consider that excess
heat and x-rays are generated by different nuclear reactions."

The reader by now may be familiar with this pattern of extracting
correlations about "nuclear reactions" from random data sets.

Page 482: "Excess heat of about 1 W lasted for 1 day in the case of
EV27, although x-ray and neutron were not detected."  This is 2.5 % of
40 W input power, an absolutely meaningless result, given the poor
quality of the calorimetry.  

Page 487, "EV8 is the sample that emitted continuous long-term X rays.
[sic].  The elements Ca, Cr, Fe, Pt, Ti, and O are detected [by EDX and
WDX, Fig. 17] on the black circle on the surface of the electrolyte
side.  As these results indicate, a correlation between these elements
detected on the Pd and nuclear products or excess heat is not clear at
present."

Table 3, Summary of Multi-Layer Cathode Experiments:  Why is so little
data given?  The excess heats given, are maximums, as large as 3.2 W,
only a meaningless small fraction of input power.  What is the
integrated excess heat?  What do the simultanous x-ray graphs actually
look like?  How common are "Simultaneous detection", claimed in five of
the six runs?

Of the 11 references, 5 are to Iwamura reports at International Cold
Fusion Conferences, and 3 to reports by Mizuno, Ohmori, and Miley, which
are unable to withstand scrutiny.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 19:47:07 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23415;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:38:35 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:38:35 -0700
Message-ID: <35B694D9.745C earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:41:45 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Murray:  foibles of CF research  7.22.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"A60wF.0.nj5.g8gjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20785
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July 22, 1998

Considering the Iwamura work, and that of others in the news this year,
I was inspired to write this parable:

Sept. 30, 1997       Team Scientific Folly

One of the classics of experimental psychology was by the famed
behaviorist at Harvard, B.F. Skinner, who used intermittent positive
reinforcement to condition a variety of eccentric behaviors
simultaneously in a group of pigeons within a day.  He set up a device
to randomly toss tasty grain into their pen.  If a pigeon happened to be
making a left turn when it suddenly found a bit of grain under its beak,
its neural net would increase the probability of repeating that
behavior, thus setting up a positive feedback cycle of continuing to
encounter bits of grain and building up a strong conditioned behavior
to continue turning to the left.

Intermittent reinforcement is far more effective than continuous
reinforcement, because the neural network is trained to accept a certain
reinforcement failure rate, so the behavior is difficult to extinguish
by reducing or withholding positive reinforcement.  So, in Skinner's
experiment, the group of pigeons would all end up dancing in bizarre,
meaningless patterns-- superstitious behavior.

Something like that can happen to a research team.  The ingredients are:

1. paradigmitis: the attitude that pretty much anything may be possible,
and there is no way to tell what is going on or is of import.

2. data stew: an experimental setup, some kind of finicky kludge with
minimal instrumentation  that produces fairly random results in a number
of simultaneous, somewhat messily related dimensions, such as radiation
measurements, complex and varied chemistry, borderline heat excursions,
etc., along with impressive high-tech measurement technology that can
only safely be used by highly qualified and experienced operators. 

Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry is ideal, since it can in
half an hour transform a few milligrams of crud into over 200 items of
data, replete with all kinds of ambiguities and interferences, while
being so expensive that crosschecks may not be budgeted.  Subtle leaks
are often the source of all kinds of dramatic effects: as I sit in
front of my magic mirror writing this, even now the shades of the
Challenger crew are starting to appear, whispering beseechingly, "Never,
ever, trust an O-ring seal..." 

3: A small team of really nice guys: who spend years together fooling
around with their kludge, making a nice enough living, trying all kinds
of things, and gradually finding procedures that often enough produce
interesting and mystifying results, which may seem to start to confirm a
shared mindset and tentative theory.  They are for years always on the
brink of a definitive experimental and theoretical breakthrough. 

Peering myoptically at realms of meaningless data and random outcomes,
they become blind to the obvious and alert to the obscure.  They start
to select from this plethora of information the tidbits that seem to
substantiate their story, and they invariably present these curiously
isolated items to the wider community in a characteristicly modest,
diffident, almost plaintive way, seeking support, politely uninterested
in skeptical criticism, making motions of criticing and cross-checking
their own story.  If the prospects of fame and fortune become vivid,
then the result of this truly powerful, highly intermittent positive
reinforcement is a striking intensification of the scientific
superstition process.  Commercially justified secrecy becomes an
inpenetrable barrier to scientific discourse with the wider community. 
Typically, the victims tend to abort this tragic cycle by seemingly
overconfident release of confused data and even experimental kits, and
by putting out reports that are full of multitudinous typos and loose
ends.

This process of team scientific superstition describes CETI, Blacklight
Power, the Cincinatti Group, Arata and Zhang, Ohmori-Mizuno-Enyo, and
the Iwamura team.

Here is another recent post with two abstracts about the pitfalls that
many cold fusion groups have fallen into:

Subject: Mills' Cell effort
Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:37:45 -0700
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 13:21:55 -0500
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>

Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
We have completed our 1st attempt at the Mills' K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell.  The
results are available at: http://www.eden.com/~little/mills/mills1.html


I won't tell you how it came out but I will tell you that our streak is
still alive...

For the record (plagarizing a little):

Some people want to deny cold fusion.  Others only want to talk about
its successes.  Here at EarthTech we are interested in observing cold
fusion.

I really don't want to hear any rants about how poorly we performed this
experiment or how we shouldn't even be trying to do this work because we
haven't read every paper that's ever been written about cold fusion.

However, I would like to hear some serious suggestions for making this
experiment work.

Thanks, 
Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

Attempt to Observe Excess Heat in a Ni-H2O-K2CO3 Electrolysis System -
9OCT97

Introduction:

Dr. Randall Mills reports multiple observations of excess heat in the
Ni-H2O-K2CO3 system on the Blacklight Power web page at
http://www.blacklightpower.com.  In the section entitled Detail on
Technology and Representative Technical Support several examples are
mentioned:

- 24.6 watts out for 4.73 watts in during pulsed current electrolysis.
Source unclear, perhaps Mills & Good

- pulsed and continuous current electrolysis with Pout/Pin > 37. Mills
and Kneizys

- pulsed and continuous current electrolysis with 41 watts out and
Pout/Pin > 8. Thermacore, Inc.

- pulsed and continuous current electrolysis with Pout/Pin > 16.
HydroCatalysis Power Corporation.

- reproduction of Mills & Kneizys experiment with Pout/Pin ~ 1.67.
Noninski

- continuous electrolysis with Pout/Pin ~ 2. Noninski w/ Weismann
observing at Brookhaven.

- electrolysis with Pout/Pin ranging from 2.7 to 3.4. Notoya & Enyo of
Catalysis Research Center, Hokkaido U

- electrolysis similar to Thermacore with Pout/Pin up to 1.68. NASA
Lewis

- electrolysis with Pout/Pin ~ 10. MIT Lincoln Laboratories

- electrolysis with Pout/Pin ~ 2. Westinghouse Electric Corporation

- electrolysis with Pout/Pin 1.28-1.38. Atomic Energy Canada Limited,
Chalk River Labs

- electrolysis with Pout = .75 watts and Pin = .3 watt (V*I). Moscow
Power Engineering Institute

- pulsed electrolysis with Pout/Pin = 8.5. Idaho National Engineering
Laboratory

After reading this list we decided to build a Ni-H2O-K2CO3 cell of our
own design and run it in the water-flow calorimeter originally intended
for the Ragland triode cell work.

EarthTech's Cell:

We utilized the cell structure from our Ragland triode experiments. It
features a plastic frame that holds the cathode and two anodes (one for
each side of the cathode). This frame seals into a 100 ml beaker and has
provisions to hold Pd-coated alumina pellets which serve to recombine
the electrolysis gasses.

We mounted a 1 cm2 piece of Ni Fibrex sheet (a felt-like material made
of Ni with a high surface area) in the cathode holder and crimped a Ni
lead wire to it. 

We used 1 in2 pieces of Pt mesh for the anodes (one anode on each side
of the Ni Fibrex sheet).

We did employ the recombiner pellets.

We filled the cell with a 0.3M solution of K2CO3 in H2O.

Procedure:

Using constant current power supplies (we always drove each anode at
approximately the same current as the other anode) we operated the cell
at a variety of current levels over a 164 hour period. We employed a
liquid displacement apparatus to measure the volume of gas emerging from
the cell during operation.

Results:

This plot shows Pout and Pin plotted vs Time. The vertical scale is 0-10
watts. The horizontal scale is 164 hours and the vertical dotted lines
are spaced every 10 hours. As you can see, there was never any obvious
indication of excess heat.

The next plot allows us to look closer:

This plot shows Pout-Pin as a function of time. The vertical scale is
-0.1 watts to +0.1 watts. Each of the 7 plateaus in the first plot are
represented as mostly horizontal zones in this plot. It is important to
notice that the very last plateau was conducted with Pin=0. A systematic
error (zero error) caused the output power to read slightly positive
during this plateau. The magnitude of this error is approximately equal
to the apparent excess heat signals at several of the other power
plateaus. In other words, the small excess heat indications above are
probably due to a systematic zero error.

We did not observe any significant emission of gas from our cell. This
means that the recombiner worked properly during the run. It also means
that there was no significant absorption of H by the Ni cathode. When Pd
cathodes are run in this cell we see 10's of cc's of O2 gas coming out
because it is "orphaned" by the H that goes into the Pd. 

Conclusion:

Our Mills experiment shows no detectable sign of excess heat. A 10%
excess…less than any of the reported confirmations of Mills' experiment
showed…would have produced a prominent positive signal in our
experiment.

We would like to make this experiment work. Any suggestions?

{Comments by Murray]  Scott Little did succeed.  He confirmed other
careful, thorough work that found the same no excess heat result.  Here
are two abstracts:

"Faradaic Efficiencies Less Than 100% during Electrolysis of Water Can
Account for Reports of Excess Heat in "Cold Fusion" Cells,"  JE Jones,
LD Hansen, SE Jones, DS Shelton, JM Thorne, Brigham Young U., Provo,
Utah 84602, "J. Physical Chem.," 1995, 99, 6973-6979:    The purpose of
this study is to evaluate claims of excess heat generation during water
electrolysis.  Several cells were constructed and operated similarly to
low-current-density cells described in the literature.  All produced
excess heat as defined and calculated in the literature reports, but the
production of excess heat could be readily terminated by the
introduction of various barriers to the migration of hydrogen and
oxygen.  Remarkably, published reports of excess heat fail to disprove
the presence of decreased faradaic efficiency (e.g., current that
oxidizes H2 or reduces O2) or systematic calorimetric errors. 
Illustrative examples of both problems aare given.  Thus, failure to
rule out prosaic explanations probably invalidates all the currently
available reports of excess heat in both light water--Ni/Pt and heavy
water--Pd/Pt cells.  There is no compelling evidence that excess heat is
of a nuclear origin in such electrolytic cells. 

"Calorimetry, Excess Heat, and Faraday Efficiency in Ni-H2O Electrolytic
Cells," ZS Shkedi, RC McDonald, JJ Breen, SJ Maguire, J Veranth, Bose
Corp., Framingham, Massachusetts 01701, "Fusion Technology," Nov., 1995,
28, 1720-1731:   Apparent excess heat is observed in light water
electrolyic cells containing a variety of nickel cathodes, a platinum
anode, and an electrolyte of K2CO3 in H2O.  High-accuracy calorimetric
measurements show apparent excess heat in the range of 15 to 37 % of
input power if a 100% Faraday efficiency is assumed for H2 and O2 gas
release.  The H2 and O2 gases released during electrolysis are
recombined in a vessel external to the cell, and the quantity of
recombined H2O is compared with the quantity of H2O expected from 100%
efficient electrolysis.  The measured Faraday efficiency is shown to be
significantly <100%,and conventional chemistry can account for the
entire amount of observed apparent excess heat to within a accuracy of
better than 0.5%.                                          

[Comments by Murray]   The Jones cells used K2CO3, with currents of 1 to
8 milliamp.  The Shkedi cells were run at high current levels of 0.18,
0.35, and 0.6 A. 

Shkedi:  "Because of the high level of interest in heavy water
experiments involving the original Fleischmann and Pons configuration,
i.e., palladium cathodes in LiOD and D2O electrolytes, a large number of
experiments were performed in such cells as well using a large variety
of metallurgically different palladium.  Twenty eight closed cells and
126 open cells were operated for a total of 1440 and 2760 cell-days,
respectively.  The heavy water cells were operated at much higher
current densities than the light water cells, so the Faraday efficiency
should be higher.  However, since none of these cells showed any excess
heat, no attempts were made to measure the Faraday efficiency."

[Murray]  Little lists 13 claimed positive excess heat results, many by
eminent laboratories, but not the above two studies.  I include also the
claims by Mitchell Swartz [mica world.std.com] for his light water
cells, and Ohmori, Mizuno, and Enyo for light water excess heat and
transmutations.  We see then that a multitude of interesting, convincing
positive claims in the cold fusion field are all invalidated.  As my
friend Sondra, an acapuncturist, told me tonight at Luby's Cafeteria,
"It looks like in science, sometimes you prove you're right, and most of
the time you prove you're wrong."  I said, "That's real science, for
sure!"  It is needful to be very cautious indeed in evaluating claims in
this field.  Returning to Iwamura, an obvious control run for their
system would be to use ordinary water.

As an example, in Wayne Green's "Elemental Energy (Cold Fusion) # 23,
Sept., 1997, arrived three days ago, page 68-72, Bennett Miller wrote a
letter on Sept. 19, 1997, skeptically evaluating cold fusion for Dr.
Martha Krebs, Director, Office of Energy Research, US Dept. of Energy,
and Dr. Robert W. Bass worte a spirited rejoiner to Dr. Krebs, including
references to an experiment from the Cincinnati Group: "...a high school
level Experiment (in an open glass beaker, which can be done in 20
minutes, with only 400 Volts of AC wall current) demonstrating bulk
transmutation of tungsten into iron, cadmium, and sulfur at low energy.
This experiment is so straightforward that there is no way to hide
behind ambiguities of interpretation of complex recorded data!...the
fact that the entire  _elementary_ experiment was done quickly at the U.
of Cincinnati, _including_ the spectroscopic analysis of the
before-and-after results...We have just sent a kit to Scott Little...a
half-day experiment upon which I myself am ready to stand or fall."

I was reminded immediately that in the last "Infinite Energy", # 13-14,
on page 23 gave the ICP/MS data by Robert R. Liversage of Data Chem
Laboratories from the Cincinnati Group's Thorium transmutation
experiment for Scan #1, Reagent Blank, (unprocessed), 5% nitric acid and
5 % hydrochloric acid, in glass (I presume) vials, as detailed data and
computer program estimated possible interferences. 

Sulfur is mainly mass 32, and has very high Total Intensity of
2,961,796, which Joe Champion says, based on his extensive and difficult
experience, is simply an interference by O2.

Now, iron is mostly mass 56.  The above data has a Total Intensity
22,544 for mass 28, the most abundant isotope of silicon.  So, mass 56
could result from Si2, and cadmium, 24 % mass 112, could be SiO4, and
tack on an H or two to get Cd 113 (12 %) and Cd 114 (29 %).  In turn,
mass 28 could itself be N2.

Also, for Iron, we might have (CO)2, or even ArO, since Ar is the
carrier gas in ICP/MS, or else CON2.  Probably, C is a major trace
constituent of the tungsten, and can also come from atmospheric CO2.  

It is clear by now that ICP/MS is an instrument of the devil, perfect
for ensnaring innocent Christian missionaries and putting them, bound up
helplessly by their own ambitious preconceptions, into a hot pot of data
stew, surrounded by ravenous cannibal critics.    

Rich Murray
Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103
rmforall earthlink.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 20:04:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17773;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:00:39 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:00:39 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980722215248.0089d620 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:52:48 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Deliberate thermal resistance
In-Reply-To: <199807221827_MC2-53CB-CAB5 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"KrGc52.0.cL4.LTgjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20786
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 06:24 PM 7/22/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>I think putting this cell in a water flow calorimeter might disrupt cell
>performance, unless the water was pressurized and held at 200 deg C.

This appears to be a really common misconception about water-flow
calorimetry. In my Case experiments, the water stayed right around 40C
while the chamber ran up around 200C with only a 20 watt input.  The key is
a deliberately poor conductivity between the experiment and the water in
the heat exchanger.  I accomplished this with a layer of fiberglass
insulation between the experiment and the water jacket.  Of course, it is
important that the heat exchanger totally surround the experiment so that
no significant amount of the heat can escape collection.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 20:04:31 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18154;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:01:59 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:01:59 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:50:33 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Hydrogen Storage Technology, No O-U?
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807222253_MC2-53E9-B091 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"BnTtS.0.ZR4.aUgjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20787
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Fred sez:

     Solar and Wind "Free Energy" NEEDS Reliable Storage, and Electrolysis of
     Water looks like the best way to go.

That depends. If the natural gas distribution network can handle hydrogen this
will be cheap. But if new pipelines or extensive renovations are needed,
electric power distribution might be more economical, even though transmission
losses are higher. Expert opinion is divided about this.


     Out of the 226 hits on Hydrogen Storage, there was no mention of
     Over-Unity even with storage where the hydrogen was over 7% of the
     weight of the storage alloy.

Did anyone look for over-unity energy? Probably not. You would not expect an
elevated temperature in the storage tank, and you would not want it there
either. It would be like finding that gasoline sometimes self-heats in the
tank. Coal will sometimes spontaneously combust in storage bunkers, which was
a problem in coal fired ships. Remember the Maine? I think it was coal, not
Spaniards, what did her in. They had a bunker next to a magazine. Even if
hydride storage tanks (bins, boxes) generated anomalous heat, it would only be
a little heat, hard to detect, because the hydrides are not optimized for cold
fusion. We don't know how to optimize materials, so nothing is optimized yet,
except possibly the catalyst Case is working with.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 20:14:46 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20635;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:12:58 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:12:58 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980722230404.007e3db0 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:04:04 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Deliberate thermal resistance
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980722215248.0089d620 mail.eden.com>
References: <199807221827_MC2-53CB-CAB5 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"6Npmd1.0.J25.uegjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20788
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


>At 06:24 PM 7/22/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>>I think putting this cell in a water flow calorimeter might disrupt cell
>>performance, unless the water was pressurized and held at 200 deg C.


At 09:52 PM 7/22/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>This appears to be a really common misconception about water-flow
>calorimetry. 


    Jed may be correct in that this should be 
considered.  

    If Scott can prove that flow calorimetry with 
its potential high heat loss rates which might effect
these systems, and vertical flow calorimetry with its 
Bernard instability, are not important, he should prove it.

   In the meantime, long-term cooloff curves, 
and waveform reconstruction would go far to demonstrating 
the utility, and reliability of his system.
[Have already commented upon the problems with the
zero-input power offset Scott has used, and that paper
is pending.]

    Mitchell Swartz

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 20:39:07 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03493;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:33:32 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:33:32 -0700
Message-ID: <000601bdb5ea$1f05f220$a3b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology, No O-U?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:29:28 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"-i6UT1.0.Vs.Cygjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20789
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com <Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 9:01 PM
Subject: Hydrogen Storage Technology, No O-U?

All good points, Jed. I thought the wording would get your attention.   :-)

Best,    Fred


>To: Vortex
>
>Fred sez:
>
>     Solar and Wind "Free Energy" NEEDS Reliable Storage, and Electrolysis
of
>     Water looks like the best way to go.
>
>That depends. If the natural gas distribution network can handle hydrogen
this
>will be cheap. But if new pipelines or extensive renovations are needed,
>electric power distribution might be more economical, even though
transmission
>losses are higher. Expert opinion is divided about this.
>
>
>     Out of the 226 hits on Hydrogen Storage, there was no mention of
>     Over-Unity even with storage where the hydrogen was over 7% of the
>     weight of the storage alloy.
>
>Did anyone look for over-unity energy? Probably not. You would not expect
an
>elevated temperature in the storage tank, and you would not want it there
>either. It would be like finding that gasoline sometimes self-heats in the
>tank. Coal will sometimes spontaneously combust in storage bunkers, which
was
>a problem in coal fired ships. Remember the Maine? I think it was coal, not
>Spaniards, what did her in. They had a bunker next to a magazine. Even if
>hydride storage tanks (bins, boxes) generated anomalous heat, it would only
be
>a little heat, hard to detect, because the hydrides are not optimized for
cold
>fusion. We don't know how to optimize materials, so nothing is optimized
yet,
>except possibly the catalyst Case is working with.
>
>- Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 22 22:52:40 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA31423;
	Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:46:53 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:46:53 -0700
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Proceeding Carefully in O/U . . .
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 05:46:36 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35becdfd.110423456 mail-hub>
References: <199807221055_MC2-53DF-3597 compuserve.com> <3.0.5.32.19980722151253.007e9a30@world.std.com>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980722151253.007e9a30 world.std.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"vM6QG2.0.ug7.Cvijr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20790
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:12:53 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
[snip]
>  The output in these systems is mostly thermal, but we get
>electricity out in some configurations.
>When our electric power out exceeds the electric
>power in, that is BREAKEVEN.
>
>   Mitchell Swartz
>
Hi Mitchell,

Do you have a cell that achieves breakeven?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 01:30:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA17478;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 01:23:14 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 01:23:14 -0700
Message-ID: <35B6F341.BD102ADA crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:24:33 +0200
From: "Jean - Paul Bibérian" <biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: EarthTech calling Mercury, come in!
References: <3.0.1.32.19980722142223.00cc6edc mail.eden.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"dlM7N2.0.0H4.oBljr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20791
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I have tried reproducing Mercury atmosphere temperature here at the lab.

We have a thermostated chamber regulated at any temperature between Earth room
temperature up to may be Mercury's, i:e: 180 C. We have placed the Case
experiment and measured the temperature of the cell. We did not observe
temperature increase indicating excess heat. Anything above 180 C without input
power would have indicated OU.

I am very sorry it didn't work.

Jean-Paul Biberian

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 02:59:10 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA25010;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 02:55:05 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 02:55:05 -0700
Message-Id: <35B700E0.1C47A91B verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:22:40 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (Win98; I)
X-Accept-Language: tr
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Relativistic Effect of Velocity on Electric Charge and Lorentz Force 
 (eprint:physics/9807043)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"bPkVW2.0.d66.vXmjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20792
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Physics, abstract 
physics/9807043

Relativistic Effect of Velocity on Electric Charge and Lorentz Force

Authors: K. C. Hwang (Irving, Texas)
Comments: 4 pages, 0 figures, HTML+GIF
Report-no: DRI-98-01
Subj-class: General Physics

The Maxwell stress tensor of the electromagnetic field is used to calculate the electric and magnetic forces on a uniformly moving charge and compared with results from the conventional Lorentz relation. A relativistic correction factor that depends on th
e velocity is obtained. The invariance of the electric charge under the Lorentz transformation is disputed.



Available from xxx.lanl.gov
 
   http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/9807043

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 07:21:40 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27602;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:19:23 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:19:23 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:08:58 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Deliberate thermal resistance
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807231010_MC2-53EA-5792 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"uhOa-.0.Cl6.ePqjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20793
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; Scott Little >INTERNET:little eden.com

I said that putting this cell in a water flow calorimeter might disrupt cell
performance, unless the water was pressurized and held at 200 deg C. Scott
Little responded:

     This appears to be a really common misconception about water-flow
     calorimetry. In my Case experiments, the water stayed right around 40C
     while the chamber ran up around 200C with only a 20 watt input.  The key
     is a deliberately poor conductivity between the experiment and the water
     in the heat exchanger.

Yes, I understand. There is no misconception. A general rule of calorimetry is
that you should hold the bath or fluid close to the baseline, working
temperature the cell wants to be in. In other words, you should avoid a large
temperature difference between the fluid and the temperature needed to begin
the experiment. There are four reasons, I think:

1. It is kind of tricky to be sure you have deliberately poor conductivity.
You might have "cold spots" with better conductivity.

2. Poor conductivity means a slow response time on the flow calorimeter, which
is a pain in the butt.

3. A large temperature gap means a lot of heat has to transfer unnecessarily.
See below.

4. Heating at the cell causes noise at the one spot in the lab where you least
want noise. If you can heat the working fluid outside the cell, the noise and
temperature perturbations will occur at that lab cooler/heater, a meter away
from the cell, instead of right at the cell with the blanket heater. (Case has
this problem too.)

In real life you cannot heat cooling fluid in a flow calorimeter to 200 deg C.
That would be dangerous and impractical. That's why I said it would be better
to use a Seebeck calorimeter in an oven. The oven heats the cell and
calorimeter as a whole, externally. There is no noisy joule heater inside the
cell, and only the excess heat that is transferred from the cell through the
calorimeter barrier. With the present arrangement you must transfer the joule
heater heat plus the excess heat. That's noisy, and it is a burden on lab
cooler, and it creates an extreme temperature difference which makes the
thermistor readings inaccurate, for no reason. That's what I mean when I say
you transfer a lot of heat unnecessarily. It would be better to carry the heat
around the loop, back into the cell, keeping perturbations and heat transfer
to a minimum.

To give a concrete example, suppose you *could* run the water at 200 deg C.
Suppose the cell produces 4.2 watts, at 60 ml/ min. The outlet versus inlet
temperature is 1 deg C, and you know  every milliwatt represents excess heat.
Now suppose you do it the other way, and you carry the water temperature all
the way up and down every time it goes through the loop. You have to add, say,
70 watts of joule heating in the cell, and total output is 74.2 watts. The
Delta T is 17.7 deg C, but 16.7 of that is noise, which tells you nothing you
did not already know. Also, the larger gap between inlet and outlet means more
divergence and inaccuracy.


     I accomplished this with a layer of fiberglass insulation between the
     experiment and the water jacket.  Of course, it is important that the
     heat exchanger totally surround the experiment so that no significant
     amount of the heat can escape collection.

That's the problem. You have to collect it all, without letting any escape,
and you must collect and measure joule heater + excess, when all you are
really interested in is the excess. In contrast, when you place the entire
calorimeter in a 200 deg C environment, the baseline heat cannot escape, and
you do not have to measure it. You can't measure it! To be precise, you do not
measure it at the sensitive Seebeck barrier. You keep track of it by
monitoring oven power consumption, but that gives only a crude, secondary
estimation. The only potential problem would be excessive temperature
fluctuations from an insensitive oven thermostat. The thermostat will be
problem no matter how you do the experiment, and it is less of a problem with
this arrangement.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 08:02:04 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10468;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:56:18 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:56:18 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35B74F17.A1B9BF8F css.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:56:23 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology, No O-U?
References: <199807222253_MC2-53E9-B091 compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"5Ej3K.0.7Z2.Fyqjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20794
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> That depends. If the natural gas distribution network can handle hydrogen this
> will be cheap. 

No. Hydrogen is too corrosive and an order of magitude more explosive (I don't
recall the exact numbers off the top of my head).  Using hydrogen as a energy
storage medium would have to be localized to really be practical and safe. 
Regular maintenance, safety inspections, and very specific materials a must.  A
simple leak could be very dangerous.  That's one of the reasons so much
research was done on storage when H became a hot topic for automobiles.

I would have to dig through a few notebooks, but I seem to remember doing a
cost study on this a few years back.  My original concept was a closed loop
solar water cracking / fuel cell arrangement, with a reserve tank for 'off
peak'.  If I recall correctly, working on the numbers and evaluating the risks
lead me to more seriously consider exploiting biomass methane as a hydrogen
carrier instead.  I had a plan to use dried, finely shredded, compacted
yardwaste biodegradables as the storage medium... toss a few bricks in the
reaction chamber, add water / heat, and presto....  fuel cell power on demand. 
The heat source could be from solar or from burning additional bricks like
charcoal.  Set up small local collection, processing, and generation centers
and you could create a nice robust, modular power grid.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane!  Forgot about that one.  Should try and
find my notes to see why I never persued it (probably met a girl or something
distracting like that. ha ha)  If anyone is interested in developing this idea,
it is free for the taking as far as I am concerned.  I would be interested in
collaborating if there are a few looking to participate.  I would even be
willing to offer up some personal website space to host such an effort....  8^)


-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
           Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
           Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 08:24:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20270;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:21:04 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:21:04 -0700
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:19:20 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Murray: Iwamura critique
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807231120_MC2-53FD-D52F compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"YiF1L.0.dy4.UJrjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20795
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Rich Murray posted a long, vapid critique of the Iwamaura paper. He should
stick to psychokinesis and the mind-body, whatever that is. I will address a
few of these points. Most of the Iwamura paper is about nuclear detection
techniques which are over my head. I suspect they are over Murray's head too,
but I cannot judge.

Kennel's comments on Ohmori are quoted. As I pointed out earlier, they are
unwarranted and incorrect. Kennel is quoted: "Similarly, the work of the
Iwamura group at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) was disappointing, as they
reported non-reproducible results which have the definite appearance of
electronic noise." The experiment worked six out of six times, but Kennel says
it is "non-reproducible." That's absurd. He has no reason to think there is
electronic noise. Kennel attended the conference with Iwamura for four days.
Iwamura was available at a poster session, and he was extremely helpful to me,
when I asked him questions. Kennel never talked to him. Instead, he took these
random potshots after he returned.

I think the rest of this critique was written by Murray . . .

     Five turns of a cooling tube, perhaps stainless steel, plated with 10
     micron Au, conducts "pure water" for mass flow calorimetry.

Yes, of course it is pure. Exactly how pure? It makes no difference. Slight
impurities have no measurable effect on the heat transfer coefficient. The
best instruments in the world could not measure the heat transfer difference
between samples from a range of lab purifier settings. Instruments can, of
course, detect electrical impedance varying by purity. Murray adds these
quibbles and doubts and quotes with a know-it-all smirk, but his doubts are
meaningless.


     At the start of each run, Ar gas is put above the electrolyte at 1 atm. 
     The vacuum pumping speed of the turbo molecular pump is 50 L/s-- is that
     constant?

Obviously. Otherwise they would have said it varies. Right? And what
difference does this make?


     I suppose the cell was used again and again, and with an accumulation of
     scratches, electrochemical corrosion between the gold and the metal
     would release all kinds of ions during the days of operation.

I would not "suppose" anything. If it matters, I would ask. But as a matter of
fact people do not go around scratching delicate instruments, and the best
technique to purify materials and reduce contamination, is to use cell
materials over and again. This is done deliberately, with a sacrificial
cathode, in a dummy run before the real experiment. Electrochemical cleaning
is the best technique on earth.


     Page 482: "Of course, we did not add any Ti to the electrolyte or the Pd
     and Pt electrodes."   But, what if an overzealous underling did?  These
     things happen.

Bullshit! The cell is the heart of the experiment. Nobody touches it but the
experts. When you touch it, you sign the lab notebook and the final report.


     The calorimetry is inadequate, with no insulation mentioned or depicted,
     and the 25X25X1 mm Pd cathode freely radiating any excess heat . . .

Yes, that is deliberate. Calorimetric precision is sacrificed to allow better
detection of the nuclear effects. And if the heat is radiated away that can
only cause an under-estimation of the excess. What difference does that make?


     Table III lists the largest Excess Heat as: max 3.2 W, about 7.5 to 15 %
     of the "20W to 40W" input power range-- but this seems to be just a
     temporary fluctuation.

Sez who?!?


     The statistical significance of this value is not given.

The 3 sigma line is shown.

A whole series of mostly irrelevant, nitpicking questions are raised. If
Murray (or Kennel, or whoever wrote this) sincerely wishes to know this stuff
-- for whatever reason -- he should have directed these questions to the
authors in private e-mail. A journal article cannot be 50 pages long. It
cannot answer every question that would occur to anyone, and especially it
cannot address random, meaningless questions dreamed by amateurs, like these:

     Electrolyte:  mass, Ph, volume, accumulation of impurities?

     Palladium plate: mass, before and after runs?  Shape changes, corrosion,
     subtle leaks?

If there is a leak, you fix it, of course.


     Recombiner: mass, trace elements?

Described in the paper, or at the conference, anyway.


     Cooling pipe: dimensions, composition, mass before and after runs, trace
     elements in cooling pipe and Au film, corrosion, subtle leaks?

Pure B.S. The cooling water does not get into the cell. As I said, you fix a
leak, subtle or blatant. Obviously if you detect a leak the run is scuttled. I
suppose if it is "subtle" enough you would not detect it. Right? You would not
know about it. Does Murray expect Iwamura to describe leaks he never detected?
That calls for ESP or time travel or PK or some other occult art, which Murray
may know about but Iwamura does not, I am sure.


     Coolant flow rate:  values, constancy, accuracy of measurement, exact
     composition of fluid, how long used, mass, trace elements, any
     accumulation of impurities over time, exposure of fluid to heat sources
     and impurities outside the cell, bubbles, suds?  Accumulated gunk that
     slows down the pump?

Bla, bla BLA!!!! Whoever heard of information like this appearing in a journal
article?!? This is a paper, not a lab notebook or a textbook. Anyone needs or
wants this level of detail must visit the lab, stay a week, and bring a camera
and a notebook. For crying out loud! Murray sounds like a prosecutor on a
fishing expedition.


     Thermocouples: type, accuracy, constancy, placement inside cooling tube
     or on outside, insulation, actual values for solution, gas, recombiner?

Bla bla, etc., etc. . . . I'll skip the rest.


     How many samples were run, and how about summaries about each and every
     run?

And while we are at it, let's have your phone logs for last six months, a copy
of you W-2 tax forms, sick days, the weather reports and barometric pressure,
and what you ate for lunch for the last six years.


     The reader by now may be familiar with this pattern of extracting
     correlations about "nuclear reactions" from random data sets.

Yeah? Would that be anything like mind reading or psychokinesis?


     Page 482: "Excess heat of about 1 W lasted for 1 day in the case of
     EV27, although x-ray and neutron were not detected."  This is 2.5 % of
     40 W input power, an absolutely meaningless result, given the poor
     quality of the calorimetry.

It is well above sigma 3. That's significant.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 09:09:16 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA32577;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:04:21 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:04:21 -0700
Message-ID: <000d01bdb653$02fb3400$95b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology, No O-U?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:59:38 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"dCYGT2.0.xy7.4yrjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20796
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 8:59 AM
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology, No O-U?

John Steck wrote:

>Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>> That depends. If the natural gas distribution network can handle hydrogen
this
>> will be cheap.
>
>No. Hydrogen is too corrosive and an order of magnitude more explosive (I
don't
>recall the exact numbers off the top of my head).  Using hydrogen as a
energy
>storage medium would have to be localized to really be practical and safe.
>Regular maintenance, safety inspections, and very specific materials a
must.  A
>simple leak could be very dangerous.  That's one of the reasons so much
>research was done on storage when H became a hot topic for automobiles.
>
>I would have to dig through a few notebooks, but I seem to remember doing a
>cost study on this a few years back.  My original concept was a closed loop
>solar water cracking / fuel cell arrangement, with a reserve tank for 'off
>peak'.  If I recall correctly, working on the numbers and evaluating the
risks
>lead me to more seriously consider exploiting biomass methane as a hydrogen
>carrier instead.

A few quad/year of biomass won't hack it, John,
with "mountains" of CO2 tied up in limestone or easily gotten from the
atmosphere:

1, H2 + CO2 --->  H-COOH  (Formic Acid)

2, H2 + H-COOH ---> H-CHO (Formaldehyde) + H2O

3, H2 + H-CHO ---> CH3OH (Methanol)

4, H2 + CH3OH ---> CH4 (pipeline methane)+ H2O

5, nCH4 (Mobil's ZSM5 Catalyst ---> Gasoline + H2.   :-)

>I had a plan to use dried, finely shredded, compacted
>yardwaste biodegradables as the storage medium... toss a few bricks in the
>reaction chamber, add water / heat, and presto....  fuel cell power on
demand.

Too unconventional, you'll blow yourself up! :-)

Besides the 50 to 70 quads/year of biomass won't cover the 1.0 quad/day
global energy requirement coming from the 12,000 quad/day
Solar insolation on the Earth.

Run the biomass through a blender (comminution)
then through a room temp ion exchange column using Biomass Ash Liquor
(Strong K2CO3)followed by CO2 (Carbonic Acid) to remove the minerals
so there won't be an ash problem.

Then using a tube up through the exhaust pipe
as a heat exchanger you can burn this de-ashed
200 C - 350 C water-biomass slurry to run ANY
Standard Internal Combustion Engine Without
increasing the atmospheric CO2 Burden.

This is in the DOE "pipeline" and the research is funded and under way at my
Solo Research Co. request. If the ion exchange demineralization
comes out as hoped, the rest is a piece of cake for ALL I.C. engines
including 20,000 Horsepower Gas Turbines.

>The heat source could be from solar or from burning additional bricks like
>charcoal.  Set up small local collection, processing, and generation
centers
>and you could create a nice robust, modular power grid.
>
>Thanks for the trip down memory lane!  Forgot about that one.  Should try
and
>find my notes to see why I never persued it (probably met a girl or
something
>distracting like that. ha ha)  If anyone is interested in developing this
idea,
>it is free for the taking as far as I am concerned.  I would be interested
in
>collaborating if there are a few looking to participate.  I would even be
>willing to offer up some personal website space to host such an effort....
8^)

Hopeless Romantic, John?   :-)

Regards,    Frederick
>
>
>--
>    _______________________________________
>       John E. Steck
>           Senior Mechanical Engineer
>           Rapid Tooling Applications
>
>       Motorola Consumer Electronics
>           Personal Communications Sector
>           Libertyville, IL
>    _______________________________________
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 09:11:41 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01789;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:08:16 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:08:16 -0700
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:04:59 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807231208_MC2-53FE-F4FF compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"EAq7I2.0.HR.k_rjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20798
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

I mentioned that expert opinion is divided about the prospects of shipping
hydrogen via the existing pipelines for natural gas. New pipelines or
extensive renovations may make this idea uneconomical. John Steck is an expert
who says Nyet:

     No. Hydrogen is too corrosive and an order of magnitude more explosive
     (I don't recall the exact numbers off the top of my head).  Using
     hydrogen as a energy storage medium would have to be localized to really
     be practical and safe.

Yes, that is what they say. But other articles say maybe large pipelines can
be retrofitted inside with some kind of coating, at a reasonable cost.
(Teflon?) Another idea is to mix natural gas and hydrogen. That sounds dicey,
although natural gas sometimes contains a little hydrogen already, they say. I
think the idea would be to transport the hydrogen from solar plants in the
desert to cities, for local power generation. A mixture of hydrogen and
natural gas would be burned. Hydrogen alone would be run through a fuel cell.
Most people do not plan to run the hydrogen into the local distribution
network to your kitchen stove. But then . . . if they do not do that, we'll
need the natural gas pipes for natural gas, and we have to build another set
of pipes anyway. Plus there are no big pipes running to the middle of Mojave
desert. There are no high voltage electric wires either. It is a can of worms.

This is discussed in Chapter 13 of the book "Power Surge" which I am
reviewing. The authors disagree with Steck: "If properly handled, hydrogen
will probably be safer than the major fuels in use today." They even think it
can gradually supplant natural gas for cooking. Hmmm . . .


     My original concept was a closed loop solar water cracking / fuel cell
     arrangement, with a reserve tank for 'off peak'.

This would be the most efficient method, according the NREL DoE, Hydrogen
Program Plan, FY 1993 - 1997.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 09:13:03 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01647;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:08:05 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:08:05 -0700
From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
Message-Id: <v0300780cb1dd1c101c67 [198.133.146.230]>
In-Reply-To: <35b75fba.82188922 mail-hub>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:10:15 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: D-D hot fusion
Resent-Message-ID: <"po5Hk1.0.dP.a_rjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20797
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Robin van Spaandonk asked:
>1) Occasionally, a He4 nucleus is formed directly, which then emits a
>gamma-ray of about 23.8 MeV. What is the measured width at half height
>of this gamma?
>
>2) There is AFAIK, a fixed ratio of the number of such gamma producing
>reactions to the usual particle producing reactions. I have seen two
>different ratios: 1/1E7 and 1/1E9. What is the actual measured value,
>and does the measurement vary depending on the experiment?

I don't know the answer to either of your questions. I presume you are
interested in the intrinsic width of the gamma line. This is pretty much in
the relm of basic nuclear physics measurements and theory. I would guess
that both data and theory are available, because D+D is such a well studied
reaction. As for question 2, I would expect that the ratio would depend
only weakly on the collision energy of the two deuterons in the "low" range
of collision energies typical of "hot fusion" experiments (< few 100 keV).

In hot fusion experiments we do not normally monitor for rare 23.8 MeV
gammas at rates 10^7 times smaller than the main reaction.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 09:33:55 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10859;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:29:06 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:29:06 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980723123410.00c0d1d0 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:34:10 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology, No O-U?
In-Reply-To: <35B74F17.A1B9BF8F css.mot.com>
References: <199807222253_MC2-53E9-B091 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"xN_Jc2.0.bf2.IJsjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20799
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> That depends. If the natural gas distribution network can handle hydrogen
> this will be cheap. 

    To get the full value from hydrogen as a fuel you need to distribute
not just the H2 but the O2 you formed when you broke the water apart.  If
you are willing to do that, not only can you get much higher efficiency
from burning the hydrogen, but you can use relatively inexpensive and
highly efficient fuel cells.
NASA did a lot of work on this, and got horsepower/pound ratios comparable
to internal combustion engines.

    As to distributing the hydrogen, there are two problems.  One, the
hydrogen can diffuse into metals and cause hydrogen embrittlement.  Second,
if you use plastics such as PVC for piping, the gas will diffuse on
through.  Ceramics work, some of them at least, but for long piping runs,
it is tough to design workable expansion joints.  The best combo seems to
be ceramic pipes with plastic bellows joints enclosed in a N2 atmosphere
with a scavenging system.

    Cryogenic hydrogen is an entire 'nother world of problems.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 09:56:23 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA20423;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:53:34 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:53:34 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980723115404.00ccb014 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:54:04 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Deliberate thermal resistance
In-Reply-To: <199807231010_MC2-53EA-5792 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA20302
Resent-Message-ID: <"xYbgQ2.0.5-4.Cgsjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20800
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed obviously does know something about calorimetry and describes a "heat
bath" method that would be quite sensitive to excess heat in Case's
system...provided Case's system is not dependent upon a large temperature
gradient in the catalyst.

But Case's original apparatus apparently produced 7-10 watts of excess
heat.  This is a big signal.  It would be easy to detect even against the
50 watt heater background.

In one day, I could construct a Cu-tubing heat exchanger for our VWF
calorimeter which would accomodate the entirety of Case's original
apparatus.  With the cooling water near room temperature, Case could
operate his apparatus inside this heat exchanger and achieve temperature
gradients very similar to those which exist when the apparatus is out on
the table.  Presumably, he would therefore observe the same temperature
anomaly while his apparatus was operating inside this heat exchanger.
However, the heat exchanger, coupled with the rest of the VWF calorimeter
system would provide an accurate (+/- 0.5 watt) measure of the total heat
released by Case's device.  Jed's right about the time constant of such an
arrangement...it's 1 or 2 hours.  Thus we'd probably have to wait until the
following day to learn once and for all whether Case's phenomenon is real
excess heat or not.

A standing invitation for such an evaluation...free of charge...is in
Case's hands.  Here is a quote from my letter of May 22, 1998 to Case:

Run 8 and the other experiments we have performed conclusively demonstrate
that it is not sufficient merely to heat the right catalyst to around 180°
C…and expose it to D2 gas…to observe the "Case phenomenon". A critical
ingredient or attribute is apparently missing from our experiment.

Furthermore, our results raise an important question about the Case
phenomenon:
Does "excess temperature" represent "excess heat"?

By "excess temperature" I refer to the fact that you observe an unexpected
increased in temperature from one configuration (hydrogen) to the next
(deuterium).  This temperature change is typically observed at only one
location in a relatively complex thermodynamic system where unstable
temperature gradients might be expected and, in our case, have actually
been observed.  My results at least raise the possibility that your excess
temperature is not really excess heat.

At this point, we feel that the most prudent next step is to use our
water-flow calorimetry to measure the heat evolved from your own apparatus.
 We could go on experimenting forever and not succeed in producing your
effect.  However, one series of tests using your apparatus in our
calorimeter would lay the above question to rest forever.

I therefore invite you to bring your apparatus to EarthTech in Austin TX.
We will construct a custom heat exchanger to accommodate the apparatus as
is and conduct a detailed series of calorimetric measurements while you
personally operate your own experiment.  

It will be necessary to surround your apparatus with a coil of 1/4" Cu
tubing (the heat exchanger) for these tests.  It will further be necessary
to wrap that assembly in thick layers of cotton insulation to make the
calorimetric measurements.  However, we can arrange the insulation and the
heat exchanger to permit easy access to your chamber for evacuation and
filling.  We can provide the necessary vacuum pump.

You cover your own travel expenses and we will donate our time and
expenses.  You should arrive one evening so we can get started early the
next morning.  1.5 days will be sufficient to conduct the tests so you
could return home the following afternoon, staying here for 2 nights.

If you succeed in your present efforts to make a well-insulated chamber
that will self-sustain, there will be no reason for you to accept our
invitation…and I will have to scramble to find out what is wrong with my
experiment!  On the other hand, if you do not succeed with the
self-sustainer, a visit to our lab in Austin would be a quick and efficient
way to determine whether or not you really have something worthy of further
investigation.

Sincerely,


Scott R. Little
EarthTech International 
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 
Austin, TX 78759
512-342-2185   (voice)
512-346-3017 (FAX)
little eden.com


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 10:26:10 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA13891;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:23:35 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:23:35 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <003d01bdb65c$f4c46500$95b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology, No O-U?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:11:01 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"rYfT8.0.tO3.K6tjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20801
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Robert I. Eachus <eachus mitre.org>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology, No O-U?

Robert I. Eachus wrote:


>Jed Rothwell wrote:
>> That depends. If the natural gas distribution network can handle hydrogen
>> this will be cheap.
>
>    To get the full value from hydrogen as a fuel you need to distribute
>not just the H2 but the O2 you formed when you broke the water apart.  If
>you are willing to do that, not only can you get much higher efficiency
>from burning the hydrogen, but you can use relatively inexpensive and
>highly efficient fuel cells.

The Pressure Swing Absorption(molecular sieve)
O2 separators can get 99%+ O2 at a few watts/lb from the atmosphere,why go
to the expense of transmission?

>NASA did a lot of work on this, and got horsepower/pound ratios comparable
>to internal combustion engines.

When you go to Separated O2-Hydrogen combustion,fuel cell or Incandescent
Ceramic Stirling Engines you can beat I.C. engines, hands down.
>
>    As to distributing the hydrogen, there are two problems.  One, the
>hydrogen can diffuse into metals and cause hydrogen embrittlement.  Second,
>if you use plastics such as PVC for piping, the gas will diffuse on
>through.  Ceramics work, some of them at least, but for long piping runs,
>it is tough to design workable expansion joints.  The best combo seems to
>be ceramic pipes with plastic bellows joints enclosed in a N2 atmosphere
>with a scavenging system.
>
>    Cryogenic hydrogen is an entire 'nother world of problems.

Seems to be viable for keeping the Space Shuttle flying.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick
>
>                                        Robert I. Eachus
>
>with Standard_Disclaimer;
>use  Standard_Disclaimer;
>function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 10:56:01 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA32169;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:51:58 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:51:58 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35B7780A.4148BA77 css.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:51:06 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology, No O-U?
References: <000d01bdb653$02fb3400$95b4bfa8 default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"vOU7V.0.Ts7.zWtjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20802
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> A few quad/year of biomass won't hack it, John,
> with "mountains" of CO2 tied up in limestone or easily 
> gotten from the atmosphere:

??  What's CO2 got to do with generating H bearing compounds for fuel cell
recombination?

> >I had a plan to use dried, finely shredded, compacted
> >yardwaste biodegradables as the storage medium... toss a few bricks in the
> >reaction chamber, add water / heat, and presto....  fuel cell power on
> demand.
> 
> Too unconventional, you'll blow yourself up! :-)

That is what I feared playing with straight H.  The neighbors and my wife
already suspect me a madman, no sense removing all doubt! ha ha

> Besides the 50 to 70 quads/year of biomass won't cover the 1.0 quad/day
> global energy requirement coming from the 12,000 quad/day
> Solar insolation on the Earth.

I admit the concept has limitations, but it is something to do with the grass
clippings and tree branches.  Always seems like a terrible waste to just throw
them out.  It is my feeling that if even a fraction of the energy potential can
be recovered, it is worthwhile to try.  Besides, the left over ash would make a
great mulch.

> This is in the DOE "pipeline" and the research is funded and under way at my
> Solo Research Co. request. If the ion exchange demineralization
> comes out as hoped, the rest is a piece of cake for ALL I.C. engines
> including 20,000 Horsepower Gas Turbines.

That process sounds real promising, but I don't think we are talking apples and
apples here.  I was not trying for an energy density to run and IC or turbine. 
Just a fuel cell stack that feeds on the trimmings and discards.

> Hopeless Romantic, John?   :-)

To the bitter end Fred.  As the character Willie Wonka so elegantly put it in
the movie 'Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory' :  "We are the music makers,
we are the dreamers of the dreams."

BTW, interested in hearing more on the progress on the slurry project.  Please
keep us posted.


-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
           Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
           Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 11:37:18 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09517;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:32:08 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:32:08 -0700
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:59:29 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Methane Conversion Patents
In-Reply-To: <008001bdb5db$9a2938e0$8cb4bfa8 default>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980723175126.14079A-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"t_25R1.0.cK2.d6ujr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20803
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Sorry Fred,

Is storing hydrogen a problem? I think I know where you're headed - you
want a hydrogen or fuel cell car or something similar. What about (I think
they're called) gas hydrides. Methane is stored in water under immense
pressure. The result is a stable ice like hydride that can liberate
hydrogen easily (or is it methane?) Anyway, something similar occurs 
naturally in nature around the Bemuda Triangle; the sudden release of gas 
apparently lowers bouyancy and affects air currents.

By the way, silly question, are there fuel cells that work with 
hydrocarbons? Could you think of a way of setting up a redox 
electrochemical reaction with hydrocarbons?

Also, BTW, do you know about the properties of supercritical water? 
Supercritical phases are very interesting and I bet they explain a lot 
about cars that inject water into the cylinders. 
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 11:58:11 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA15677;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:52:35 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:52:35 -0700
Message-ID: <006001bdb66a$7f68b8c0$95b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology, No O-U?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:48:28 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"wjaGD.0.jq3.nPujr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20804
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology, No O-U?

John Steck wrote:


>Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>
>> A few quad/year of biomass won't hack it, John,
>> with "mountains" of CO2 tied up in limestone or easily
>> gotten from the atmosphere:
>
>??  What's CO2 got to do with generating H bearing compounds for fuel cell
>recombination?

Geez John, I didn't think Mechanical Engineers
were THAT unfamiliar with cookbook Chemical Engineering chemistry.  :-)

If you want to use the hydrogen derived from electrolysis of water to make
pipeline Synthetic Natural Gas (SNG) to be compatible with Trillions of
Dollar$ of existing pipelines, you can use the CO2 from the atmosphere the
same as Biomass (photosynthesis) trees etc.

Otherwise there are Gobs of online Steam-O2
blown gasifiers that will convert biomass or fossil fuels to Hydrogen or
SNG, by the kilotons/day.
>
>> >I had a plan to use dried, finely shredded, compacted
>> >yardwaste biodegradables as the storage medium... toss a few bricks in
the
>> >reaction chamber, add water / heat, and presto....  fuel cell power on
>> demand.

You're close,John, but, you need supercritical
water (>350 C 3,200 PSI). If you want methane use a supported nickel
catalyst. If you want Hydrogen use a water soluble alkali carbonate catalyst
(ironically, potassium carbonate the stuff you get from burning biomass is a
great
catalyst for this.
>>
>> Too unconventional, you'll blow yourself up! :-)
>
>That is what I feared playing with straight H.  The neighbors and my wife
>already suspect me a madman, no sense removing all doubt! ha ha

I find myself sympathizing with them.  :-)
>
>> Besides the 50 to 70 quads/year of biomass won't cover the 1.0 quad/day
>> global energy requirement coming from the 12,000 quad/day
>> Solar insolation on the Earth.
>
>I admit the concept has limitations, but it is something to do with the
grass
>clippings and tree branches.  Always seems like a terrible waste to just
throw
>them out.

Agreed,add that to gigatons of agricultural wastes that are biodegrading in
the fields or the manure piles and going into the atmosphere as CO2, NOx and
CH4, when it could be generating quads of energy/yr in the cycle,as opposed
to using fossil fuels, it makes sense.

 It is my feeling that if even a fraction of the energy potential can
>be recovered, it is worthwhile to try.

Right On! I've ran 289 and 327 cubic-inch car engines on biomass gasified
right out of the manure pile. Only needed to add a cut-off valve
on the fuel line, and a hose into the air intake.

>Besides, the left over ash would make a
>great mulch.

That's called mineral recycling.
>
>> This is in the DOE "pipeline" and the research is funded and under way at
my
>> Solo Research Co. request. If the ion exchange demineralization
>> comes out as hoped, the rest is a piece of cake for ALL I.C. engines
>> including 20,000 Horsepower Gas Turbines.
>
>That process sounds real promising, but I don't think we are talking apples
and
>apples here.  I was not trying for an energy density to run an IC or
turbine.
>Just a fuel cell stack that feeds on the trimmings and discards.

Very DOABLE, John, anytime you want a combustion fired gasifier-hydrogen
generator
design to work on give me a holler. A used PSA
O2 generator and a few odds and ends at $250.00 will have you ready for your
$million "fuel cell stack". :-)

>> Hopeless Romantic, John?   :-)
>
>To the bitter end Fred.  As the character Willie Wonka so elegantly put it
in
>the movie 'Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory' :  "We are the music
makers,
>we are the dreamers of the dreams."

Poetic.
>
>BTW, interested in hearing more on the progress on the slurry project.
Please
>keep us posted.

Will do,John.

Regards,   Frederick
>
>
>--
>    _______________________________________
>       John E. Steck
>           Senior Mechanical Engineer
>           Rapid Tooling Applications
>
>       Motorola Consumer Electronics
>           Personal Communications Sector
>           Libertyville, IL
>    _______________________________________
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 11:58:55 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16520;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:55:26 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:55:26 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35B7872B.9BB4A55F css.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:55:39 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology
References: <199807231208_MC2-53FE-F4FF compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"VCK_U2.0.z14.SSujr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20805
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> John Steck is an expert who says Nyet

I wish!  No, just just a fool that thinks he understands things from the
limited tinkering allowed on a non-DoE budget... 8^) 

> The authors disagree with Steck: "If properly handled, hydrogen
> will probably be safer than the major fuels in use today." They even think it
> can gradually supplant natural gas for cooking. Hmmm . . .

I suposed the key element in that statement is "will probably" although I don't
see how.  H is far and away the most reactive element in comparison. 
Everything else is just dilluted H.  And as for supplanting natural gas, IMO
that can only happen when we run out.  H needs to be cracked out of various
compounds.  Natural gas just needs to be tapped from existing ground sources . 
I don't think you need to pull out the pad and paper to see which will cost
less to supply.  Besides, H burns too hot for many things we use natual gas
for.  Eggs cooked over what is essentially a domestic plasma torch?  As the
horse says on 'Ren & Stimpy' : "Hmmmm... No sir, I don't like it."

>      My original concept was a closed loop solar water cracking / fuel cell
>      arrangement, with a reserve tank for 'off peak'.
> 
> This would be the most efficient method, according the NREL DoE, Hydrogen
> Program Plan, FY 1993 - 1997.

Efficient, yes.  Practical for a homeowner? no.  Risk is too high for casual
maintenance or general neglect.  Just look at how many people never change the
oil in their car.  Only takes 10 minutes and maybe $20, but they are just too
lazy.  That is a disaster waiting to happen with H, and a product liability
nightmare for anyone foolish enough to sell such a setup (ever stop to wonder
why no one sells electrolysis cells?).  Bottom line is the business plan would
never get off the ground because the first laysuit would bust the company.

Just my opinion.



-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
           Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
           Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 12:13:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21653;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:09:18 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:09:18 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980723151419.00c16e40 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:14:19 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology, No O-U?
In-Reply-To: <003d01bdb65c$f4c46500$95b4bfa8 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"aAYXZ2.0.9I5.Sfujr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20806
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:11 AM 7/23/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>The Pressure Swing Absorption(molecular sieve)
>O2 separators can get 99%+ O2 at a few watts/lb from the atmosphere,why go
>to the expense of transmission?

     Because transmission is essentially zero cost?  If you put the H2 pipe
inside the O2 pipe, you can pull the diffused H2 out of the oxygen every
few hundred miles--or just not bother.  Since you have half as much O2 by
volume as H2, you come out ahead on piping costs for short distances.  If
you are planning to send it across the country, then sending the H2 only
might be better.  But in that case shipping methane is probably the big win.

>When you go to Separated O2-Hydrogen combustion,fuel cell or Incandescent
>Ceramic Stirling Engines you can beat I.C. engines, hands down.

     Depends which IC engines.  Don't think family car, think Grand Prix.
The Stirling Engines and the fuel cells are more efficient, but the weights
are in the same ball park--beyond a certain point the main weight issue is
the cooling system/radiator.

>Seems to be viable for keeping the Space Shuttle flying.  :-)

    You don't want to know... Remember before the Challenger disaster that
they were anxious to get the shuttle off the pad?  (Too anxious as it
turned out.)  One of the limiting factors is hydrogen embrittlement--after
a few days fully fueled the tank--and the shuttle--have to sit empty to get
the H2 back out of key pieces.  Did hydrogen embrittlement play a role in
the Challenger crash?  Almost certainly.  The stack had been sitting fully
fueled for too long, so there was some degredation in the strength of the
external tank wall.  But more important, the jet of flame from the SRB
would have caused cracking.  If the shuttle had been freshly loaded, the ET
might have lasted until SRB separation.  (Of course, if the tanks had been
freshly loaded, I'm sure they would have scrubbed for the day, and waited
for better conditions.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 12:32:32 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23612;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:24:09 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:24:09 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <006501bdb66e$7ba04240$95b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Methane Conversion Patents
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:17:02 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"pSRRN.0.km5.Ltujr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20807
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: Methane Conversion Patents

Remi wrote:


>Sorry Fred,
>
>Is storing hydrogen a problem?

As a H2 gas, I would say yes. Have you ever seen the 18 wheelers (you
call'em Lorries)with tons of high pressure cylinders hauling a couple of
hundred pounds of H2 gas at 200 atm?  :-)
I think I know where you're headed - you
>want a hydrogen or fuel cell car or something similar.

Nope, I'm headed for Death & Taxes. I only bet on a sure thing.:-) And
gathering from how amphibians are dying around the Globe if we don't get the
atmosphere cleaned up in a hurry
there won't be any fresh air left for our children and grandchildren to
breathe either.

>What about (I think
>they're called) gas hydrides.

Look at the Hydrogen Storage (keywords) Remi
the German patent claims up to 7% by weight hydrogen storage in
Magnesium-Nickel, that's
almost an order of magnitude better than Palladium.
>Methane is stored in water under immense
>pressure. The result is a stable ice like hydride that can liberate
>hydrogen easily (or is it methane?) Anyway, something similar occurs
>naturally in nature around the Bemuda Triangle; the sudden release of gas
>apparently lowers bouyancy and affects air currents.
>
>By the way, silly question, are there fuel cells that work with
>hydrocarbons?

Yes, but for the efficient ones,only if you react them with steam to H2 +
CO2.

The gas industry ran a program called "Target"
in about 1970 where they were proposing:

CH4 + 2 H2O ---> CO2 + 4 H2 to heat your house and provide electrical power
from the fuel cell. You can use motor oil for a similar reaction. Anyhow
they spent hundreds of $millions in todays dollars, but they could get a
decent lifetime out of the fuel cells.


Could you think of a way of setting up a redox
>electrochemical reaction with hydrocarbons?

There are patents on this (Search Pat Dhooge's work on electrochemical
redox).
>
>Also, BTW, do you know about the properties of supercritical water?

Again the best source of general info on this is the Patents or Web Sites.

>Supercritical phases are very interesting and I bet they explain a lot
>about cars that inject water into the cylinders.

You form 1.5 pounds of "supercritical H2O"
and about 3.1 pounds of "supercritical CO2"from combustion of a pound of
"petrol".  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

>Remi.
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 12:33:34 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28634;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:31:59 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:31:59 -0700
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:28:09 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: ICE versus fuel cells, electric motors
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807231531_MC2-53FF-141 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"mIUQL2.0.J_6.k-ujr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20809
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Robert I. Eachus raised the issue of fuel cells versus ICE. He says "NASA did
a lot of work on this, and got horsepower/pound ratios comparable to internal
combustion engines." My reference books agree that fuel cells and battery
powered electric automobiles are both more efficient than ICE. My handiest
reference book is the NREL DoE, Hydrogen Program Plan, FY 1993 - 1997. It has
these lovely charts in the back summarizing efficiency and pollution for
transportation and electricity. There is a chart for each type of fuel at
each stage. For example, for oil ICE we have:


CRUDE OIL, 9.5 arbitrary units of energy, Refinery stage, 0.85% efficient, SO2
and CO2 pollution ==>

GASOLINE, 8.1 units of energy remaining, Distribution stage, 0.97%
efficient ==>

DELIVERED GASOLINE, 7.8 units of energy remaining, IC Engine combustion stage,
0.15% efficient, CO2 and NOx pollution ==>

ROTARY POWER, 1.2 units of energy remaining, Power Train stage, 85%
efficient ==>

VEHICLE PROPULSION, 1.0 units of energy remaining.


That's with current technology. With current technology electric cars, we
start with 5.1 units of FOSSIL FUEL energy, convert it to AC electricity,
store in a battery, and end up with 1.0 units of VEHICLE PROPULSION. 5.1
versus 8.1 is a 40% improvement. Natural gas with ICE takes 11.2 units --
lousy! Here is a nutty scheme:

FOSSIL FUELS => AC ELECTRICITY => HYDROGEN => ICE => VEHICLE
PROPULSION

That starts off with a hearty 71.9 units, seven and a half times worse than
what we have now.

PHOTOVOLTAIC SOLAR => DC POWER => HYDROGEN => ICE => PROPULSION

. . . starts off with 345 units of solar energy, but they're free. SOLAR PVs
to ELECTRIC CAR takes only 34.8.



Now, lets turn to Advanced Technologies. Lookee here:

NATURAL GAS, 3.6 units, Transmission stage, 0.97% efficient ==>

DELIVERED NATURAL GAS, 3.5 units remaining, On-Board Storage stage, 0.75%
efficient ==>

ON-BOARD NATURAL GAS, 2.6 units remaining, Reformer & Fuel Cell stage, 0.43%
efficient, CO2 pollution ==>

DC ELECTRICITY, 1.1 units remaining, Power Train stage, 90% efficient ==>

VEHICLE PROPULSION, 1.0 units remaining.


With hydrogen instead of natural gas you get no CO2 pollution. You can do this
with 43.4 units of solar energy for each unit of VEHICLE PROPULSION. Or, with
direct solar to hydrogen photoconversion, it takes only 32.8 units.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 12:37:38 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27445;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:27:45 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:27:45 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980723152217.007e03a0 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:22:17 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Proceeding Carefully in O/U . . .
In-Reply-To: <35becdfd.110423456 mail-hub>
References: <3.0.5.32.19980722151253.007e9a30 world.std.com>
 <199807221055_MC2-53DF-3597 compuserve.com>
 <3.0.5.32.19980722151253.007e9a30 world.std.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"BIEu61.0.gi6.mwujr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20808
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



At 05:46 AM 7/23/98 GMT, Robin wrote:

>>  The output in these systems is mostly thermal, but we get
>>electricity out in some configurations.
>>When our electric power out exceeds the electric
>>power in, that is BREAKEVEN.


>Do you have a cell that achieves breakeven?

   Hi Robin:

   Working toward that very difficult to achieve goal. 
   There are several complexities which occur, some of
which were unexpected.  A paper is developing describing
this, and some of the requirements of successful breakeven
with these systems.
  Best wishes.

   Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 12:48:43 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27166;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:42:20 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:42:20 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <006e01bdb670$56eb5e60$95b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:29:42 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"Uph901.0.Fe6.K8vjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20810
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I think there is a conspiracy to discredit Hydrogen going on. :-)

The Water Gas that provided essentially safe fuel worldwide for decades:

H2O + C --->  CO + H2 was piped all over the place. 

If the CO didn't get you, the H2 could? 

Nonsense, it's a ploy to keep you on the methane pipelines. 

Regards,  Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 12:56:43 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02520;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:54:45 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:54:45 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35B78BB4.8475E1A4 css.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:15:00 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Methane Conversion Patents
References: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980723175126.14079A-100000 iesun9>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"wr2O51.0.5d.5Kvjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20811
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Remi Cornwall wrote:

> By the way, silly question, are there fuel cells that work with
> hydrocarbons? 

Yes.  Butane is a commonly used.
 

-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
           Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
           Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 13:25:09 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03668;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:22:33 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:22:33 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:13:19 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Correction
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807231614_MC2-5401-7D16 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"jTecC.0.7v.5kvjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20812
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Where I wrote:

NATURAL GAS, 3.6 units, Transmission stage, 0.97% efficient . . . etc.,

That should be 97% efficient. It is listed at 0.97 in this book, not as a
percent.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 13:29:43 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA10616;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:27:26 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:27:26 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35B79CC1.9BBD53E css.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:27:45 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology, No O-U?
References: <006001bdb66a$7f68b8c0$95b4bfa8 default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"FHMyp2.0.ob2.jovjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20813
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frederick J Sparber wrote:
> Geez John, I didn't think Mechanical Engineers
> were THAT unfamiliar with cookbook Chemical Engineering chemistry.  :-)

Only the ones who didn't see the point during their misspent youth.  8^)  Yeah,
through the years I've found a screw driver doesn't seem to fix everything.  I
appreciate your patience.

> If you want to use the hydrogen derived from electrolysis of water to make
> pipeline Synthetic Natural Gas (SNG) to be compatible with Trillions of
> Dollar$ of existing pipelines, you can use the CO2 from the atmosphere the
> same as Biomass (photosynthesis) trees etc.

Oh.  Well now that makes sense.  I knew I was missing something.

> You're close,John, but, you need supercritical 
> water (>350 C 3,200 PSI). If you want methane use a supported nickel
> catalyst. 

Or a good still and go with white lightning instead.  8^)

> Very DOABLE, John, anytime you want a combustion fired gasifier-hydrogen
> generator design to work on give me a holler. 

I appreciate the offer and hopefully I can take you up on it sometime in the
near future.  No sense re-inventing the wheel if I don't have to.



-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
           Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
           Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 14:36:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA21431;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:31:36 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:31:36 -0700
Message-ID: <00de01bdb680$acdbd880$95b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>, "Vortex-L" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Blow and Run Biomass Gasifier
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:25:46 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"HjnH72.0.hE5.ukwjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20814
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Here you go for getting your thought processes in order, John.  :-)

I made an annular boiler by using a 12 inch casing inside a 16 inch casing
with a Grate made with 1/4" perforated steel covered with a
layer of 1" alumina balls obtained from Coors
Porcelain in Golden Colo.(they brew good beer too) there was a rotary steel
paddle under the top of the ceramic balls to stir with bevel gears and a
hand crank.

I used a two stage vacuum/blower from Graingers
to make the thing burn like a forge. this in conjunction with modified gate
valves operated
with solenoids (Grainger) and the electrical
sequencing of Air - Steam gives an essentially
N2-Free CO + H2. This was called "Blow and Run" gas makers a century ago.
With a standard shift catalyst: CO + H2O ---> CO2 + H2, and a CO2
Scrubber or Molecular sieve you can get essentially pure H2 from any
carbonaceous material.

The annular boiler is safetyed like any other
boiler.The thing looked a lot like the Lunar Lander, and if you don't use
good boiler practice, it might just do that. :-)

More of an exercise in scrounging stuff than anything else. This was the
unit that I used to run ICE's using Cow Chips and Horse Puckey. :-)

Regards,   Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 15:53:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26885;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:50:51 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:50:51 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980723183418.00c18770 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:34:18 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology
In-Reply-To: <006e01bdb670$56eb5e60$95b4bfa8 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Yua0y.0._Z6.9vxjr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20815
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 01:29 PM 7/23/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>I think there is a conspiracy to discredit Hydrogen going on. :-)

   Definitely true.   There is a group called the Hindenburg society which
was formed to combat it--don't know if they are still around.  Called the
Hindenburg society because every time someone proposes to use hydrogen as a
fuel, up comes the Hindenburg.  (More than half of the passengers and crew
on the Hindenburg survived--hydrogen burns UP! so most of those killed were
killed by the initial explosion or the gondola hitting the ground.  And of
course hydrogen burns almost invisibly.  The burning that most remember is
when the doped gas bags eventually ignited the aluminum and magnesium in
the airframe.  (There was also on-board fuel for the engines.)

>The Water Gas that provided essentially safe fuel worldwide for decades:

>H2O + C --->  CO + H2 was piped all over the place. 

>If the CO didn't get you, the H2 could?

    Nope, but don't get me wrong here.  The old water gas systems were very
reliable, but my first introduction to hydrogen embrittlement occured when
the local gas company switched to natural gas from coal gas.  Trying to
unscrew the  nozzle in a gas stove, the service man broke the cast iron
pipe.  But it didn't just break, it shattered.  (The pipes were way
overengineered for normal household service, but banging it under tension
was too much.)  The service man said it had happened to him several times
already that day--plenty of pipe in the truck. ;-)   Coal gas was fine in
poorly insulated houses, but in modern homes, microcracks (from
embrittlement again) can lead to CO buildup in the home.

>Nonsense, it's a ploy to keep you on the methane pipelines. 

      Yep, natural gas is much higher in caloric value, and if spiked with
mercapitans, which all gas provided to houses is, it is safer.  But
hydrogen is MUCH safer than natural gas.  However, the "greedy oil
companies" want to sell the natural gas which is a byproduct of oil and gas
production, and they also use hydrogen in catalytic crackers used to turn
crude into useful products.  So they discourage hydrogen use by others--bad
for business.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 15:59:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02418;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:55:34 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:55:34 -0700
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: D-D hot fusion
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:55:54 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35b7bbf0.171354966 mail-hub>
References: <v0300780cb1dd1c101c67 [198.133.146.230]>
In-Reply-To: <v0300780cb1dd1c101c67 [198.133.146.230]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"kUiCe.0.hb.bzxjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20816
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:10:15 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:

>Robin van Spaandonk asked:
>>1) Occasionally, a He4 nucleus is formed directly, which then emits a
>>gamma-ray of about 23.8 MeV. What is the measured width at half height
>>of this gamma?
>>
>>2) There is AFAIK, a fixed ratio of the number of such gamma producing
>>reactions to the usual particle producing reactions. I have seen two
>>different ratios: 1/1E7 and 1/1E9. What is the actual measured value,
>>and does the measurement vary depending on the experiment?
>
>I don't know the answer to either of your questions. I presume you are
>interested in the intrinsic width of the gamma line. 

Yes that is indeed what I meant.

>This is pretty much in
>the relm of basic nuclear physics measurements and theory. I would guess
>that both data and theory are available, because D+D is such a well studied
>reaction. 

This is why I thought it would be trivial to answer for professionals
in the field. Yet posting on both SPF and here on vortex has resulted
in only one response, yours.

>As for question 2, I would expect that the ratio would depend
>only weakly on the collision energy of the two deuterons in the "low" range
>of collision energies typical of "hot fusion" experiments (< few 100 keV).

Ok, then this is not likely to be the reason for so few responses.

>
>In hot fusion experiments we do not normally monitor for rare 23.8 MeV
>gammas at rates 10^7 times smaller than the main reaction.

I can sympathise with your response, however I would have thought that
someone must have done the measurements initially, to determine that
the gamma decay pathway was indeed trivial.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 16:49:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA12803;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:44:31 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:44:31 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35B7CA69.EB85A877 css.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:42:33 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology
References: <3.0.1.32.19980723183418.00c18770 spectre.mitre.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"EiN9A1.0.z73.Uhyjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20817
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Robert I. Eachus wrote:

>       Yep, natural gas is much higher in caloric value, and if spiked with
> mercapitans, which all gas provided to houses is, it is safer.  But
> hydrogen is MUCH safer than natural gas.  

Because.....  there is no CO?  and how is the caloric value higher?  H is way
more dangerous to generate/handle/transport/store.  Extremely expolsive and
burns hot enough to vaporize metal.  Are you talking about steam doped H gas
maybe?  That is much safer and cleaner.  Typically that is how they 'step down'
the chemical reaction in H burning ICE's.

> However, the "greedy oil
> companies" want to sell the natural gas which is a byproduct of oil and gas
> production, and they also use hydrogen in catalytic crackers used to turn
> crude into useful products.  So they discourage hydrogen use by others--bad
> for business.

Well, that's one source.  NG coincides 'naturally' with crude oil deposits. 
Most of the time it's just burnt off at the well head to reduce the hazard. 
Some wells are drilled specifically just to harvest the natural gas deposits. 
They may 'vent'  NG from crude cracking into the reserve tanks, but it
certainly is not a cost effective way to produce it given it's natural
abundance.  Most crude wells consider it a nusance to deal with.

Granted, the petro boys have a vested interest in stopping the proliferation of
alternative energy sources, but hydrogen use is discourage for the same reason
as fooling around with high voltage is discouraged.  Real easy to kill yourself
if you are not careful or don't know what you are doing.

Again, just my understanding.  Please correct me if I am mistaken.  8^)


-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
           Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
           Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 17:24:54 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22163;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:19:18 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:19:18 -0700
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:19:42 -0700
Message-Id: <199807240019.RAA17498 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: D-D hot fusion
Resent-Message-ID: <"2r4q2.0.3Q5.5Czjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20818
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>On Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:10:15 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:
>
>>Robin van Spaandonk asked:
>>>1) Occasionally, a He4 nucleus is formed directly, which then emits a
>>>gamma-ray of about 23.8 MeV. What is the measured width at half height
>>>of this gamma?
>>>
>>>2) There is AFAIK, a fixed ratio of the number of such gamma producing
>>>reactions to the usual particle producing reactions. I have seen two
>>>different ratios: 1/1E7 and 1/1E9. What is the actual measured value,
>>>and does the measurement vary depending on the experiment?
>>
>>I don't know the answer to either of your questions. I presume you are
>>interested in the intrinsic width of the gamma line. 
>
>Yes that is indeed what I meant.

FWIW:  The line width comes from the velocity dispersion of the particles
emitting the gammas, so the width tells you the temperature of the plasma at
the time of emission.  But it would be interesting to know of the gammas are
emitted prior to particle acceleration and heating, or after.  Obviously the
recoil from gamma emission will play a role in the width too since the
emission isn't instantaneous.  Did your references cite different reaction
mechanisms for the different ratios above?  ie, Tokamak vs Laser ICF vs
accelerators?

Ross Tessien



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 17:41:50 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA26825;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:38:13 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:38:13 -0700
Message-ID: <011601bdb69a$caf7d3e0$95b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:34:09 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"3wuUf2.0.1Z6.qTzjr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20819
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, July 23, 1998 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology

John Steck wrote:


>Robert I. Eachus wrote:
>
>>       Yep, natural gas is much higher in caloric value, and if spiked
with
>> mercaptans, which all gas provided to houses is, it is safer.  But
>> hydrogen is MUCH safer than natural gas.
>
>Because.....  there is no CO?

CO production for one thing,lots of people die each year from faulty heaters
or poor combustion of methane in 1972 my wifes uncle died from CO caused by
a clogged chimney (birds built a nest in it) had it been Hydrogen only he
would've only drowned. :-( I have a CO detector next to my baseboard hot
water "boiler" and gas hot water heater.


>and how is the caloric value higher?

The Low Heat Value (LHV) of Hydrogen is 270 Btu/ft^3 as opposed to 896
Btu/ft^3 for methane. Rule-of-Thumb is 300 and 1,000 Btu/ft^3 respectively.

>H is way
>more dangerous to generate/handle/transport/store.  Extremely explosive and
>burns hot enough to vaporize metal.  Are you talking about steam doped H
gas
>maybe?

The gas straight from air-blown gasifiers is about 120 Btu/ft^3 because of
the N2, Ar, and CO2 in it, but you can run a piston I.C. engine on it. The
gas turbines don't do very well unless it is O2 blown to get the Btus up
past
300-600 Btu/ft^3.

>That is much safer and cleaner.  Typically that is how they 'step down'
>the chemical reaction in H burning ICE's.

Nope, the NOx gots beyond EPA limits at the higher combustion temps.

>
>> However, the "greedy oil
>> companies" want to sell the natural gas which is a byproduct of oil and
gas
>> production, and they also use hydrogen in catalytic crackers used to turn
>> crude into useful products.  So they discourage hydrogen use by
others--bad
>> for business.
>
>Well, that's one source.  NG coincides 'naturally' with crude oil deposits.
>Most of the time it's just burnt off at the well head to reduce the hazard.

>Some wells are drilled specifically just to harvest the natural gas
deposits.
>They may 'vent'  NG from crude cracking into the reserve tanks, but it
>certainly is not a cost effective way to produce it given it's natural
>abundance.  Most crude wells consider it a nuisance to deal with.
>
>Granted, the petro boys have a vested interest in stopping the
proliferation of
>alternative energy sources, but hydrogen use is discouraged for the same
reason
>as fooling around with high voltage is discouraged.

Horse Puckey, John.  :-) In the late 70's the Murchison brothers (former
owners of the Dallas Cowboys)funded a methane producer at a huge cattle
feedlot in Western Oklahoma, the anaerobic bacteria produced about 10 ft^3
of methane/cow day. With 500,000 head of cattle
and 1,000 btu/ft^3 that's a lot of energy (NO BULL) the gas was scrubbed to
as good a pipeline quality as you could get. The gas industry WOULD NOT let
them use the pipelines to "Wheel" the gas interstate or intrastate. They
lost millions on the deal.

>Real easy to kill yourself
>if you are not careful or don't know what you are doing.

Have you checked you electric shaver lately?
>
>Again, just my understanding.  Please correct me if I am mistaken.  8^)

Done?  :-)

Regards,   Frederick
>
>
>--
>    _______________________________________
>       John E. Steck
>           Senior Mechanical Engineer
>           Rapid Tooling Applications
>
>       Motorola Consumer Electronics
>           Personal Communications Sector
>           Libertyville, IL
>    _______________________________________
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 21:03:11 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05448;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:01:56 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:01:56 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980724000702.00be3430 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:07:02 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology
In-Reply-To: <35B7CA69.EB85A877 css.mot.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.19980723183418.00c18770 spectre.mitre.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"3FBPQ.0.2L1.pS0kr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20820
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 06:42 PM 7/23/98 -0500, John Steck wrote:
>Because.....  there is no CO?  and how is the caloric value higher?  H is way
>more dangerous to generate/handle/transport/store.

   Breathing hydrogen won't kill you.  If the concentration gets high
enough, it will explode.  As I remember it, hydrogen can explode at lower
concentrations in air than NG, but it will burn at still lower
concentrations.  A fire from a hydrogen leak would be no picnic, but it
would be a lot easier to handle than one of those natural gas leaks that
takes out three houses.

   Also, as I said, hydrogen burns UP!  In other words, unless you are
above a hydrogen fire, it won't harm you.  (Water vapor has a molecular
weight of 18, as opposed to about 29 on average for air.  CO2 weighs in at
44, and worse soot particles adsorb lots of moisture.  So a smokey natural
gas or petroleum product fire produces eye cloging smoke that is willing to
get close to the ground.)  Hydrogen gas also rises naturally, so in an
unenclosed space it is really hard to have hydrogen burn, unless you spill
large quantities of liquid hydrogen.  On the other hand natural gas can
pool on or near the ground and create an explosive mixture in the open.
The natural gas explosion that took out the Trans-Siberian Railway (and
probably also took the Soviet Union with it) was of this type. 

>Well, that's one source.  NG coincides 'naturally' with crude oil deposits. 
>Most of the time it's just burnt off at the well head to reduce the hazard. 

     In most countries, including all major petroleum producing countries,
no longer legal.  In fact they made most refineries burn the "flare gas"
that results from the cracking process as a fuel to further reduce air
pollution.

>  Most crude wells consider it a nusance to deal with.

    Yep, but deal with it they must.

>  Real easy to kill yourself if you are not careful or don't know what you
are > doing?

    Have you tried?  Hydrogen in reciprocating engines will expose you to
the threat of flying metal, but compared to many substances I've worked
with, hydrogen gas is benign.  Phosphene, PH3, is a lot nastier, fluorine
gas is downright lethal, in fact HF is pretty nasty too.  But if natural
gas or propane is about a 10 on a scale of 1 to 1000, hydrogen is about an
8.  (XeO3, xenon  trioxide is the top of the scale.  Actually, pure XeO3
isn't quite that bad, but it usually has some residual HF (hydrofluoric
acid) or XeF4 from the manufacturing process.)   


                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 21:11:17 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08059;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:10:16 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:10:16 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980724001520.00c227d0 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:15:20 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "George" <gsparb@juno.com>
In-Reply-To: <011601bdb69a$caf7d3e0$95b4bfa8 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"1Ssbr3.0.qz1.ca0kr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20821
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 06:34 PM 7/23/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>>and how is the caloric value higher?
>
>The Low Heat Value (LHV) of Hydrogen is 270 Btu/ft^3 as opposed to 896
>Btu/ft^3 for methane. Rule-of-Thumb is 300 and 1,000 Btu/ft^3 respectively.

    let me clarify my statement.  Hydrogen has less energy per cubic foot,
but way more per pound.  Of course, when transporting it through pipelines
it is the volume that matters.  But hydrogen has much lower friction, so it
is easier to pump.  (In fact most large electrical generators are filled
with hydrogen!  The savings in energy from lower air turbulence losses is
worth the effort.)

>>That is much safer and cleaner.  Typically that is how they 'step down'
>>the chemical reaction in H burning ICE's.
>
>Nope, the NOx gots beyond EPA limits at the higher combustion temps.
 
   (Unless you get the nitrogen out of there. ;-)  For higest efficiency
you burn hydrogen in oxygen, then get the advantage of the higher heating
value by condensing the water vapor generated.)



                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 21:22:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12554;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:20:10 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:20:10 -0700
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: D-D hot fusion
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 03:08:53 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35b9f19d.185100993 mail-hub>
References: <199807240019.RAA17498 Au.oro.net>
In-Reply-To: <199807240019.RAA17498 Au.oro.net>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"rQ1BY2.0.u33.tj0kr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20822
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:19:42 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
[snip]
>FWIW:  The line width comes from the velocity dispersion of the particles
>emitting the gammas, so the width tells you the temperature of the plasma at
>the time of emission.  But it would be interesting to know of the gammas are
>emitted prior to particle acceleration and heating, or after.  Obviously the
>recoil from gamma emission will play a role in the width too since the
>emission isn't instantaneous.  Did your references cite different reaction
>mechanisms for the different ratios above?  ie, Tokamak vs Laser ICF vs
>accelerators?
[snip]
Thanks Ross, I think you just saved me the trouble of following this
up. It's obviously not going to tell me what I wanted to know. I
really wanted to calculate the lifetime of the excited state that
decayed to the gammas, but with thermal line broadening taking place
(and recoil), that doesn't seem very easy.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 23 21:55:52 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17166;
	Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:54:30 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:54:30 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35B80466.76B0 earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:49:59 -0500
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Murray: Rothwell: Iwamura replication?  7.23.98
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"1XVdX2.0.8C4.4E1kr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20823
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

July 23, 1998

Hello Jed Rothwell,  I conjecture that sometimes a cooling loop with
"pure water", if the water remains unchanged for months or years, might
accumulate enough impurities or even microorganisms, to cause suds or
leave gunk deposits in the tubing and in the pump.  If the flow was
slowed 10 %, then it would allow the delta-T to get 10 % higher,
generating an excess heat artifact.  I recall you mentioning that Tom
Droege had organic crud in his cells years ago.

The constancy of the vacuum pump speed is relevant, because Iwamura uses
it to calculate the deuterium loading of the Pd cathode plate.

As I mentioned, it is plausible to surmise that their puzzling graphs on
quite different D2 pressure histories for identical Pd cathode plates is
most simply due to subtle leaks.

The long cooling pipe is indeed a plausible source of impurities, which
would naturally be concentrated on electrochemically active spots on the
cathode plate.

Iwamura's final claim of five out of six excess heat successes, and five
out of six for simultaneous detection of X-rays deserves to be validated
by independent labs-- why can't he immediately send his proven
multilayer cathode plates to you and Mallove, to Scott Little, and to
Tom Claytor at LANL, since the experiment is so simple?  I'd be very
pleased indeed for him to get a richly earned Nobel Prize.

Also, he should test these spectacular cathodes with light water
electrolyte, because if he still got the same results, that would
indicate that some artifacts are available to be tracked down.  This
would also advance the art of cold fusion research.  Has the Iwamura
team ever tried light water electrolyte runs?

Rich Murray
Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103
rmforall earthlink.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 01:40:02 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA14529;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:39:13 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:39:13 -0700 (PDT)
Date:      Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:25:21 GMT
From: "Peter Glueck" <peter itim.org.soroscj.ro>
Message-ID: <35b85306.itim itim.org.soroscj.ro>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l mail.eskimo.com>
Cc: "Peter Glueck" <peter itim.org.soroscj.ro>
Subject:   hydrogen storage
Resent-Message-ID: <"E79hb3.0.wY3.lW4kr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20824
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dear Vortexers,

If you want to read a really professional book re. hydrogen energy,
try:
http://www.HyWeb.de/english

For hydrogen safety, a very good Material Safety Data Sheet and even
more is at:
<http://www.osma.lerc.nasa.gov/lsm/lsm6.htm>

Don't forget that the mission of vortex is to support the change from
our primitive and destructive fuel burning technology to a modern one
based on ecologically friendly sources of energy. Hydrogen is more
efficient when it is NOT burned, its monoxide is a powerful energy source
and it is not profitable and not smart to separate hydrogen for using it.
Best wishes and let's focus on the essential problems,
Peter
-- 
dr. Peter Gluck

Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology         Fax:064-420042
Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700           Tel:064-184037/144
Cluj 5, 3400 Romania                                  Home: 064-174976
E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 04:00:51 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA26682;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 03:59:34 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 03:59:34 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <017f01bdb6f0$7e4e2a20$95b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "Peter Glueck" <peter itim.org.soroscj.ro>, "George" <gsparb@juno.com>
Subject: Re:   hydrogen storage
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 04:46:57 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"VISyK3.0.qW6.Ka6kr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20825
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Glueck <peter itim.org.soroscj.ro>
To: vortex <vortex-l mail.eskimo.com>
Cc: Peter Glueck <peter itim.org.soroscj.ro>
Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 2:37 AM
Subject: hydrogen storage

Greetings Peter, it's been a while, nice to hear from you!

Your Scribe wrote:


>Dear Vortexers,
>
>If you want to read a really professional book re. hydrogen energy,
>try:
>http://www.HyWeb.de/english
>
>For hydrogen safety, a very good Material Safety Data Sheet and even
>more is at:
><http://www.osma.lerc.nasa.gov/lsm/lsm6.htm>

I couldn't pull this one up, but I could get
www.lerc.nasa.gov  Is there a hangup with osma?
>
>Don't forget that the mission of vortex is to support the change from
>our primitive and destructive fuel burning technology to a modern one
>based on ecologically friendly sources of energy.

Yes, to that statement.

>Hydrogen is more
>efficient when it is NOT burned, its monoxide is a powerful energy source
>and it is not profitable and not smart to separate hydrogen for using it.

Hmmm, a wet blanket there?   :-)


>Best wishes and let's focus on the essential problems,

Agreed.

Regards,   Frederick
>Peter
>-- 
>dr. Peter Gluck
>
>Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology         Fax:064-420042
>Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700           Tel:064-184037/144
>Cluj 5, 3400 Romania                                  Home: 064-174976
>E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro 
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 05:57:41 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12202;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:56:45 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:56:45 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:47:22 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology
In-Reply-To: <35B7872B.9BB4A55F css.mot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980724134433.17333A-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"MOPRX.0.a-2.AI8kr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20826
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, John Steck wrote:

> I suposed the key element in that statement is "will probably" although I don't
> see how.  H is far and away the most reactive element in comparison. 
> Everything else is just dilluted H.  And as for supplanting natural gas, IMO
> that can only happen when we run out.  H needs to be cracked out of various
> compounds.  Natural gas just needs to be tapped from existing ground sources . 
> I don't think you need to pull out the pad and paper to see which will cost
> less to supply.  Besides, H burns too hot for many things we use natual gas
> for.  Eggs cooked over what is essentially a domestic plasma torch?  As the
> horse says on 'Ren & Stimpy' : "Hmmmm... No sir, I don't like it."

Disagree sir. You can 'burn' hydrogen with a palladium catalyst (no) like 
that everlasting cigarrete lighter they used to critise cf. It would be 
configured as a hot plate. 

Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 06:23:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19017;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:22:20 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:22:20 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:12:58 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Methane Conversion Patents
In-Reply-To: <006501bdb66e$7ba04240$95b4bfa8 default>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980724135041.17333B-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"yFn6L3.0.0f4.Ag8kr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20827
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> Remi wrote:
> >Sorry Fred, Is storing hydrogen a problem?
> 
> As a H2 gas, I would say yes. Have you ever seen the 18 wheelers (you
> call'em Lorries)with tons of high pressure cylinders hauling a couple of
> hundred pounds of H2 gas at 200 atm?  :-)
Duh!

> Nope, I'm headed for Death & Taxes. 
Yeah but you're going to have a goodtime along the way too?!

> Look at the Hydrogen Storage (keywords) Remi
> the German patent claims up to 7% by weight hydrogen storage in
> Magnesium-Nickel, that's
I'll check out. Magnesium, nickel dirt cheap. Should do well.

> The gas industry ran a program called "Target"
> in about 1970 where they were proposing:
> 
> CH4 + 2 H2O ---> CO2 + 4 H2 to heat your house and provide electrical power
> from the fuel cell. You can use motor oil for a similar reaction. Anyhow
> they spent hundreds of $millions in todays dollars, but they could get a
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> decent lifetime out of the fuel cells.
It's common. We've been there, done that. You don't need to do it. 
Probably if one was to start such a research project and *read too much*, 
one would end up agreeing with them.

> >Also, BTW, do you know about the properties of supercritical water?
> You form 1.5 pounds of "supercritical H2O"
> and about 3.1 pounds of "supercritical CO2"from combustion of a pound of
> "petrol".  :-)

Yes. Supercritical phase have very interesting properties between liquid 
and gas phases: they have similar density to liquids but much lower 
viscosity and higher diffsivity than liquids. Also water becomes 
'non-aqueous' and is able to dissolve non-polar liquids.

My point: obviously reactions in a high density state proceed more 
rapidly and completely. COuld it be that this supercritical state assists 
the oxidation of hydrocarbons? I know that a lot of water of combustion 
is formed, but by  the down stroke it probably is in the gaseous phase.

May be just after the compression stroke, a supercritical phase exists in 
water injected cylinders which leads to a more complete and efficient 
utilisation of fuel.

Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 06:25:53 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19184;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:23:40 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:23:40 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:19:22 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Methane Conversion Patents
In-Reply-To: <35B78BB4.8475E1A4 css.mot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980724141452.17333C-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"fQpYa3.0.fh4.Rh8kr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20828
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, John Steck wrote:

> Remi Cornwall wrote:
> 
> > By the way, silly question, are there fuel cells that work with
> > hydrocarbons? 
> 
> Yes.  Butane is a commonly used.

You're kidding? Any good? Gaseous butane? If you can do butane, why not a 
slightly higher petroleum fraction?

Patents, papers, names? I'll go and search. Bloody hell, think, it 
probably be cheaper to crack petrol to lower fractions when you've got an 
electric car with a 80% fuel conversion process.

I'm not entirely convinced that the oil companies are pro-development.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 06:39:50 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22579;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:36:40 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:36:40 -0700 (PDT)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35B88BFE.E2F898D2 css.mot.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:28:30 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology
References: <011601bdb69a$caf7d3e0$95b4bfa8 default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"LKk-Z1.0.fW5.bt8kr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20829
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> >That is much safer and cleaner.  Typically that is how they 'step down'
> >the chemical reaction in H burning ICE's.
> 
> Nope, the NOx gots beyond EPA limits at the higher combustion temps.

Closed loop water vapor.  Saturating the H gas cools the combustion temps and
reduces the HP, but makes the reaction much safer.  I will dig through my email
archive.  I think something was posted about this when I was lurking on
KeelyNet-L earlier in the year.

> The gas industry WOULD NOT let
> them use the pipelines to "Wheel" the gas interstate or intrastate. They
> lost millions on the deal.

I am assuming this is before deregulation?  Might be a lot easier now.  But
even if you were still denied, you now have the option to use it to generate
electricity and distibute using the power grid instead.

Thanks for the perspective.  I was unaware of that situation, although common
sense says that it would be a great idea to get an answer BEFORE spending all
that money.  Oh well, I am sure there is a very important bit that the public
was never told.  What did they wind up doing with all that MG?


-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
           Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
           Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 06:46:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24410;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:44:53 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:44:53 -0700 (PDT)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35B88E13.663556A7 css.mot.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:37:23 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Discussion Group - Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [Fwd: How-to run an Engine on Hydrogen]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"CZ17D1.0.Kz5.J_8kr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20830
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a message I saved from KeelyNet back in April that I think is topical
to the H thread.  Just though it may be of interest for those that don't lurk
over there.  The message archive can be picked through at: 
<http://www.escribe.com/science/keely/>

Subject:  How-to run an Engine on Hydrogen
Date: 	Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:24:49 -0500
From: 	"Jerry W. Decker" <jdecker keelynet.com>
Reply-To:  KeelyNet-L lists.kz

Jerry W. Decker wrote:
> I found this in the sci.hydrogen DejaNews;
> -------------------------
> I have been researching the process of splitting water (H2O) into its
> components,  Hydrogen and Oxygen, to be re-mixed and burned as fuel
> since ?66.
> 
> I have noticed many questions from novices regarding auto conversion to
> hydrogen. Here are a few bits of info that should help. Hopefully, you
> won?t have to pay any "non-profit" groups just for information on this
> low -polluting fuel [when burned with air, 78% Nitrogen, there is
> Nitrogen Oxide emissions (smog)].
> 
> The conversion of a vehicle to hydrogen is relatively simple and
> inexpensive, using an older car before fuel injection.  It is very
> similar to a propane conversion, costing about $500.
> 
> The main parts needed are an Impco model CA300 type carburetor, an Impco
> low pressure regulator, a hydrogen storage tank, and the hydrogen, (try
> Linde Co).
> 
> Because hydrogen burns very hot (it will burn a hole through a normal
> piston) some use plastic polymer coated pistons or sodium filled valves
> (expensive). Most solve this problem by mixing in some of the water as
> (steam) vapor to cool the combustion at the expense of loss of power.
> 
> Since hydrogen has 2.5 times the power of gasoline, it doesn't matter
> much.  You can still keep up with a supercharged race car... Because of
> the rapid combustion, the ignition gap has to be very small, like .001
> inch.
> 
> One of the vehicles ERDA reviewed way back in '74 used oxygen instead of
> air, to burn the hydrogen.  The Perris Smogless Automobile Association
> from UCLA was using a Model "A" Ford  as one of their hydrogen fueled
> test engines that carried a tank of compressed hydrogen and a tank of
> compressed oxygen.
> 
> This was mixed together in an "oxybureter" (a closed carburater)and then
> ignited in the cylinders, as is gasoline. The exhaust was pure hydrogen
> and oxygen.
> 
> This exhaust was rerouted back to the fuel tank to be used again as
> fuel. Unfortunately, many took this to be a perpetual motion device, and
> dismissed it without any real consideration. It performed beautifully,
> as did their next Hydrogen-Oxygen powered the vehicle, without
> pollution, and did not have the relatively weak power compared with an
> electric vehicle, such as the Fuel Cell type vehicles use. No matter how
> efficient the Fuel Cell, they still use an electric motor.
> 
> In the last 20 years, I have seen little change published regarding
> hydrogen power processes. New "electrolysers" are being  patented using
> the same old electrolysis processes, using higher pressures &
> temperature, and achieving more efficient electric power with newer,
> expensive electrolytes.
> 
> A few novel approaches noted included forcing electron leakage to
> seperate molecules by high voltage, or using "resonant cavities" to
> boost and re-boost the power to achieve the necessary decomposition
> energy for water.
> 
> Most of these processes use the same principle of using electrochemical
> energy to decompose the water, taking a long time to do it, and still
> dealing with clumsy storage processes. While these may or may not work
> (the patent attorneys don?t care), the processes require constant input
> energy, and also take too long to generate onboard fuel.
> 
> There is an ongoing debate that a hydrogen-oxygen engine as a closed
> system could not work because it is a violation of one of the laws of
> thermodynamics - it could not put out more energy than was put into it.
> 
> In other words, it would take more energy to split the water into its
> components than it would get out of the hydrogen oxygen combustion.
> 
> One needs to step out of the bounds of chemistry to justify this
> self-sustaining chain reaction process. Remember that old concept of
> E=MC squared?
> 
> Matter is Energy!  Hydrogen and oxygen molecules are energy "packets".
> Water molecules are being used up as energy, which balances an energy
> equation, when the mass=energy is factored in.
> 
> A Water-Splitting chain reaction is needed, decomposing water into
> Hydrogen and oxygen to be used as a non-polluting fuel - if not already
> discovered and put away until the fossil fuels are used up.
> 
> My first attempt at a web page still under construction describes a
> process to achieve a water-splitting chain reaction.
> 
>          http://home.pacbell.net/coop88.waterasfuel3.htm
> 
> To skip the preliminaries, click on "water splitting" to the red lined
> part. Sorry I haven?t completed my sub/sup scripts in the formulas.
> BCNU, Coop
> ----------------------
> From another inventor who has been working on it since 1968 and achieved
> what I think is major success (8 amps in for hydrogen production, then
> 15 amps out with a generator attached to a lawnmower engine that burns
> the hydrogen with air)..he is working on his own web page with full
> details....he is the closest I know to Dad Garretts success in Dallas in
> 1935.......he says;
> ----------------------
> I use the mixture and run it into the intake with atmospheric air.  I
> know this creates some oxides of nitrogen, but so does gasoline and
> nobody seems to give a damn about that, so neither do I!
> 
> I have built steam engines powered by hydroxy.  I have had the idea to
> use the vacuum-forming capabilities of hydroxy to let the atmosphere
> expand in the cylinders of a rankin-cycle steam engine instead of
> steam--but I have never built the machinery.
> 
> If you compress pure hydroxy--it forms water.  No good.
> 
> If you inject the mixture into a cylinder and then close the intake
> valve and continue to crank for 20 degrees or so--it expands the mixture
> and sort of dries it out.
> 
> I detonate at about 20 to 45 degrees past tdc (top dead center of the
> piston stroke) and I get a hell-of-a-blast-power-stroke.  Because the
> hydrogen goes off so fast, you don't need to have it "burn" for the
> entire 180 degrees as in a gasoline or diesel engine.
> 
> I use the exhaust stroke open for 180 degrees.  This sort of makes the
> engine run like a two-stroke--modified.
> 
> When you start using water as fuel, you have to sort of throw out the
> rule book.  The rules change.

-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
           Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
           Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 06:44:08 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA20275;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:43:10 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:43:10 -0700
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:39:35 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Murray: Rothwell: Iwamura replication?
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807240942_MC2-5416-E7C9 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"XZuF_3.0.iy4.jz8kr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20831
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; >INTERNET:rmforall earthlink.net

Rich Murray writes:

     I conjecture that sometimes a cooling loop with "pure water", if the
     water remains unchanged for months or years, might accumulate enough
     impurities or even microorganisms, to cause suds or leave gunk deposits
     in the tubing and in the pump . . .

You think they wouldn't notice?!? That's preposterous. It would never happen
in the first place, and if it did they would notice, and furthermore,
microorganisms cannot synthesize elements with peculiar isotopic ratios, and
even if they could, they would not magically transfer these elements through
the walls of a cooling tube into a cell.


     If the flow was slowed 10 %, then it would allow the delta-T to get 10 %
     higher, generating an excess heat artifact.

Why wouldn't the flowmeter catch this change?


     Has the Iwamura team ever tried light water electrolyte runs?

Ask them.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 06:52:14 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA25720;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:51:04 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:51:04 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:39:23 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Risque t-shirts
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807240942_MC2-5416-E7C8 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"Zvzl-3.0.kH6.559kr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20832
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Years ago a friend of mine went to bank on Saturday, when the tellers dress
informally. The teller was a buxom young lady wearing a t-shirt that said:
"Substantial penalties for early withdrawal."

I saw something similar yesterday here at the airport. A young lady from the
avionics store was wearing a t-shirt patterned after the equipment warning
flags you often see on aircraft. It was bright red with white stenciled
writing across the front: "REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 07:16:32 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24633;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:15:14 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:15:14 -0700
Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35B896E2.BB7E1D67 css.mot.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:14:58 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: hydrogen storage
References: <35b85306.itim itim.org.soroscj.ro>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"-Jje42.0.p06.nR9kr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20833
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Peter Glueck wrote:

> If you want to read a really professional book re. hydrogen energy,
> try: <http://www.HyWeb.de/english>

Hey, great site!  Thanks for the address.


-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
           Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
           Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 07:23:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA00780;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:20:33 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:20:33 -0700 (PDT)
Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35B89651.B8929916 css.mot.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:12:33 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Storage Technology
References: <3.0.1.32.19980723183418.00c18770 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980724000702.00be3430@spectre.mitre.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"IF4k31.0.yB.hW9kr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20834
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Robert I. Eachus wrote:
> >  Real easy to kill yourself if you are not careful or don't know what you
> >  are doing
> 
>     Have you tried?  Hydrogen in reciprocating engines will expose you to
> the threat of flying metal, but compared to many substances I've worked
> with, hydrogen gas is benign.  Phosphene, PH3, is a lot nastier, fluorine
> gas is downright lethal, in fact HF is pretty nasty too.  But if natural
> gas or propane is about a 10 on a scale of 1 to 1000, hydrogen is about an
> 8.  (XeO3, xenon  trioxide is the top of the scale.  Actually, pure XeO3
> isn't quite that bad, but it usually has some residual HF (hydrofluoric
> acid) or XeF4 from the manufacturing process.)

Have I played with hydrogen? Yes, operating an electrolysis cell, but
meticulously following all safety precautions.  Could I have wound up a
statistic?  Sure, only takes a leaking hose and static discharge.  Even the
extremely experienced have a healthy respect.  Flying metal is a major concern
of mine.  8^)

Chemically, I can see you point, but following your logic I think it only fair
to include arsnic and cynide as more dangerous too.  8^)  There are safety
risks for both MG and H.  It's the corrosive nature and explosive reaction rate
of H that gets my attention.


-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
           Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
           Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 08:11:38 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10830;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:09:25 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:09:25 -0700 (PDT)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35B8A1A0.72F1B70 css.mot.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:00:48 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Methane Conversion Patents
References: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980724141452.17333C-100000 iesun9>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"vsOHU2.0.we2.UEAkr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20835
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Remi Cornwall wrote:
> You're kidding? Any good? Gaseous butane? If you can do butane, why not a
> slightly higher petroleum fraction?
> 
> Patents, papers, names? I'll go and search. Bloody hell, think, it
> probably be cheaper to crack petrol to lower fractions when you've got an
> electric car with a 80% fuel conversion process.

Digging in my archive, the stated fuel was methanol not butane.  Sorry for the
error.  The butane reference was from a prediction on where the technology
could go.

Miniature fuel cell technology, at Los Alamos National Laboratory by Robert
Hockaday.  His startup company to finish R&D and bring it to market, Energy
Related Devices Inc.  Major investor, Manhattan Scientifics, Inc.

<http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5631099>

5631099 : Surface replica fuel cell 
INVENTORS:  Hockaday; Robert G., Los Alamos, NM
ISSUED:     May 20, 1997
FILED:  Sep. 21, 1995

Check the vortex archives for 1/98.  Look for the thread titled "Hockaday
cellular phone fuel cell, Los Alamos" for the complete press releases forwarded
by Rich Murray.

> I'm not entirely convinced that the oil companies are pro-development.

What partially convinced you?  8^)


-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
           Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
           Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 08:41:38 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15020;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:39:56 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:39:56 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:19:30 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Risque t-shirts
In-Reply-To: <199807240942_MC2-5416-E7C8 compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980724151744.17333G-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"pyRiX3.0.cg3.8hAkr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20836
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> To: Vortex
> 
> Years ago a friend of mine went to bank on Saturday, when the tellers dress
> informally. The teller was a buxom young lady wearing a t-shirt that said:
> "Substantial penalties for early withdrawal."

If she was your bank manager, you'd go she her more often. You could 
talk business.

Heh, heh, heh,
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 09:30:02 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA19310;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:29:06 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:29:06 -0700
Message-ID: <01c901bdb71f$a0252520$95b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Methane Conversion Patents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:25:04 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"ly-VY1.0.dj4.HPBkr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20837
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: Methane Conversion Patents

John Steck wrote:
>
>Digging in my archive, the stated fuel was methanol not butane.  Sorry for
the
>error.  The butane reference was from a prediction on where the technology
>could go.

A wee bit of difference between methanol (CH3OH) and Butane (C4H10).  :-)

H2O + CH3OH ---> CO2 + 3 H2 is an easy hydrolysis reaction, 8 H2O +
C4H10 ---> 4 CO2 + 13 H2 is a bit tricky even if you crack the butane
first,a stubborn reaction at best that leads to ethane, butenes, methane,
and H2.

At any rate the single carbon molecules, like CH4 or CH3OH make the best
stocks for fuel cells or ICEs.

BTW. In the poor CO producing combustion of NG (CH4) partial oxidation can
also form methanol (CH3OH) or formaldehyde (H-CHO), this was used in the
early days to make methanol.

When gasoline was threatening to go to $2.00+/gallon we toyed with the idea
of buying NG at about $.10/lb ($1.60)and adding 1/2 O2 at low  cost to make
*almost* 10 gallons of methanol for $1.20, to blend with gasoline. :-)

A lot of the independents were doing just that with hydroreformed NG
methanol-gasoline blends up to better than 50%, plus water,and screwing up
the "plumbing" and gas mileage on a lot of cars.

For remote gas wells there are trailer-mounted NG Powered Units that turn
the NG to methanol at the wellhead making it easy to store and/or transport.

It can be hydrogenated back to CH4 + H2O or used for other purposes. You
just can't stay ahead of these energy companies,John.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick
>
>    _______________________________________
>       John E. Steck
>           Senior Mechanical Engineer
>           Rapid Tooling Applications
>
>       Motorola Consumer Electronics
>           Personal Communications Sector
>           Libertyville, IL
>    _______________________________________
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 12:06:33 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16185;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:57:48 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:57:48 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:47:16 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Photovoltaic service life
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807241449_MC2-5413-941C compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"sN-jG2.0.oy3.faDkr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20838
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

I found some good papers about the service life of photovoltaic (PV) devices:

http://www.nrel.gov/research/pv/2srvtim.pdf

Service Lifetime Prediction for Encapsulated Photovoltaic Cells/Minimodules
A.W. Czanderna and G.J. Jorgensen
Center for Performance Engineering and Reliability
National Renewable Energy Laboratory, Golden, CO 80401-3393


http://www.sandia.gov/pv/hot/Pvq_496.htm

Photovoltaic Systems Performance and Reliability: Myths, Facts, and Concerns.
A 1996 Perspective.
Mike Thomas and Hal Post
Photovoltaics Quarterly

Ideal performance for PVs would be 1% per year linear degradation, leading to
70% of original performance after 30 years. Nothing like this has been
achieved. An actual 1991 test installation at Carissa Plains degraded to 30%
of original performance in 7 years. As I mentioned earlier, manufacturer
warrantees last 10 to 20 years. Based on these papers, my guess is that de
facto acceptable standard is to have the PV output 70% - 80% of original power
at the end of the service life. Below this, it would not be worth changing out
the batteries and invertors, which have a shorter service life than the PV
arrays.

Some quotes from the first paper:

    . . . degradation can occur by weathering and/or soiling of the cover
    glass; photothermal, oxidative, or other degradation of the pottant
    (refs 1, 16, 31); interdiffusion of ions into the pottant; metalization
    corrosion; electric field-induced ion migration or degradation; and
    polymer/metal oxide interface reactions or delaminations. Many of these
    processes may depend on initial impurity concentrations and trapped
    gases (vapors), and concentration changes during use. We emphasize this
    complexity of the entire module here because we have to establish which
    other degradative reactions must be mitigated (besides pottant
    discoloration) and which ones are too slow to impact the performance
    adversely over 30 years.

    . . .

    Module service life prediction and material system concepts depend on
    correctly identified degradation mechanisms that reduce the performance
    or limit the service life of the module, and their appropriate
    applicability to reality. Long-term degradation mechanisms usually
    result from complex synergistic reactions between the environment and PV
    cell or module materials. The predominant degradative reactions may
    change during the module life, making analytical modeling extremely
    difficult. Degradation of polymeric materials can be catalyzed by their
    own reaction products, by solar cell metalization materials, or from ion
    transport into them that can eventually result in enhanced
    discoloration, cracking, moisture ingress, and failures in other module
    component materials. An increase of moisture in the encapsulant may
    facilitate electrochemical corrosion and progress to the point where
    dielectrical breakdown may occur between the cell circuit and the module
    ground. All of these and other degradative phenomena are critical to
    module durability.

What does "pottant" mean? It is not my dictionaries or Britannica.

Some wry quotes from the second paper:

    There has been a great deal of reluctance to discuss system degradation,
    but it is essential to bring this issue to the surface. The issues here
    are really those of maintenance and warranties. System warranty periods
    are usually no more than two years. Power conditioners, controllers, and
    other electronic devices are offered with warranties of 90 days or less.
    Switchgear, safety devices, and other balance-of-system components may
    have little if any warranties at all. Modules may come with 5, 10, 12 or
    20 year performance warranties that warrant no more than 10% degradation
    in ten years. Batteries have pro-rated warranties, but are null and void
    unless the manufacturers' procedures for charging and temperature
    regulation have been followed. So what do we observe in the field for
    degradation?

    First, in our experience, the chance that power conditioners and
    controllers will not work initially varies between 10 and 30%. Most
    manufacturers will replace at no cost their products at this point. Mean
    time between failures cannot be accurately evaluated because many
    products change so rapidly. Modules are unquestionably the most reliable
    component in the system, but many are over-rated by 10 to 15% to begin
    with (9). Standard rates of degradation for modules over the first ten
    years of operation are typically 1-2% per year; i.e., greater than
    allowed by the warranties (10). Since the performance of most systems is
    not measured accurately enough or, most likely not at all, warranty
    claims for decreased performance are minimal.

The jaded voice of experience!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 12:12:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15033;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:10:16 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:10:16 -0700
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:53:14 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" <jdo acs.ucalgary.ca>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: is PVC safe for drinking water (OFF TOPIC)
In-Reply-To: <199807240019.RAA17498 Au.oro.net>
Message-Id: <Pine.A41.3.96.980724064619.23358F-100000 acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"Wzhkv.0.og3.NmDkr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20839
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Since there is so much discussion on hydrogen storage and chemical
formulations, there must be a few experts, engineers or chemists who can
answer the following questions:
1) what chemicals constitute PVC, and 
2) is there any health/safety concern using PVC piping for drinking water
If this is too boring or too practical for this list, then please contact
me privately. Useful information is welcomed.
********************************************************************************
Jorg Ostrowski,  M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect 
- sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings
- living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office
Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm
e-mail: <jdo acs.ucalgary.ca>
################################################################################


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 12:40:18 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22958;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:38:17 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:38:17 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <01e501bdb738$f18c5780$95b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Photovoltaic service life
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:24:37 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"dtgoa1.0.dc5.eAEkr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20840
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed asks. "what does pottant mean?"

Potting or encapsulation compound. Ie., that which you pot or seal with.

I suppose the paraffin wax used to seal up
jelly jars could be called a pottant. Then there is the pottee.   :-)

Bet Rick Monteverde is up on this jargon.  :-)

Regards, Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 13:01:19 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26297;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:57:09 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:57:09 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:49:37 -0700
Message-Id: <199807241949.MAA05264 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: D-D hot fusion
Resent-Message-ID: <"jVy3V1.0.oQ6.GSEkr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20841
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


>Thanks Ross, I think you just saved me the trouble of following this
>up. It's obviously not going to tell me what I wanted to know. I
>really wanted to calculate the lifetime of the excited state that
>decayed to the gammas, but with thermal line broadening taking place
>(and recoil), that doesn't seem very easy.
>

I'd have to open up some books, but you are dealing with times on the order
of E-12 to E-18 seconds for many particle reactions (weak or strong force
interactions).  Particle physics texts would be the place for excited state
lifetimes as they observe them directly in cloud chambers via the lengths of
tracks and via knowing the velocities (energies).

Ross Tessien


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 13:30:44 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00473;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:27:11 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:27:11 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:15:48 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Photovoltaic service life
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807241619_MC2-5417-2C56 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"RZI641.0.F7.TuEkr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20842
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Frederick J Sparber explains that a pottant is:

     Potting or encapsulation compound. Ie., that which you pot or seal with.

     I suppose the paraffin wax used to seal up jelly jars could be called a
     pottant. Then there is the pottee.   :-)

So . . . when you seal jelly jars with fermenting fruit, to make fruit punch,
this may lead to a situation in which the pottant pottee is potted by potent
potables in punch. Right?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 13:48:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA31238;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:47:39 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:47:39 -0700
Message-ID: <020001bdb743$ba7ba880$95b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Photovoltaic service life
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:43:26 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"3kF4y2.0._d7.gBFkr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20843
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com <Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com>
Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: Photovoltaic service life

Jed wrote:


>To: Vortex
>
>Frederick J Sparber explains that a pottant is:
>
>     Potting or encapsulation compound. Ie., that which you pot or seal
with.
>
>     I suppose the paraffin wax used to seal up jelly jars could be called
a
>     pottant. Then there is the pottee.   :-)
>
>So . . . when you seal jelly jars with fermenting fruit, to make fruit
punch,
>this may lead to a situation in which the pottant pottee is potted by
potent
>potables in punch. Right?

Possibly.

FJS
>
>- Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 13:54:20 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA32596;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:51:32 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:51:32 -0700
Message-ID: <020b01bdb744$4a2c0560$95b4bfa8 default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Shooting in Capitol Building
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:47:14 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01BDB711.F2B4BCA0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"VOBcw3.0.9z7.JFFkr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20844
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BDB711.F2B4BCA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



http://www.cnn.com/

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BDB711.F2B4BCA0
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="CNN Interactive.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="CNN Interactive.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.cnn.com/
Modified=4079BB1144B7BD013E

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BDB711.F2B4BCA0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 15:02:48 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13408;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:00:25 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:00:25 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35B90402.8BA200C5 css.mot.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:00:34 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: is PVC safe for drinking water (OFF TOPIC)
References: <Pine.A41.3.96.980724064619.23358F-100000 acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ucUry3.0.QH3.vFGkr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20845
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote:
> Since there is so much discussion on hydrogen storage and chemical
> formulations, there must be a few experts, engineers or chemists who can
> answer the following questions:
> 1) what chemicals constitute PVC, and
> 2) is there any health/safety concern using PVC piping for drinking water
> If this is too boring or too practical for this list, then please contact
> me privately. Useful information is welcomed.

PVC is the abbreviation for Polyvinyl Chloride.  Not a very environmentally
friendly material.  In it's plastic state, very corrosive to the processing
equipment and molds, but non-corrosive once set.  Greenpeace has it on it's hit
list because of the dioxin and furan by-products from the manufacture,
disposal, and combustion of this chlorinated plastic.  These compounds can
continue to leach out even after processing and are suspected hormone
disruptors.  The full extent of their influence is unknown.

A paper on hormone disruption and PVC plastic can be found at Greenpeace's
website:  <http://www.greenpeace.org/~uk/science/hdc/71stolen.txt>

I wouldn't use it for water feed lines, but has become a popular low cost
building material for waste lines.  Not sure if typical water filters can
remove dioxin or furan compounds with activated charcoal or not.  I will have
to default that answer to one of the resident beaker jockeys....


-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
           Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
           Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 16:25:22 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21097;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:23:09 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:23:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: D-D hot fusion
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:15:37 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35b91400.259461267 mail-hub>
References: <199807241949.MAA05264 Au.oro.net>
In-Reply-To: <199807241949.MAA05264 Au.oro.net>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ORzir2.0.Z95.RTHkr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20846
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:49:37 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
[snip]
>I'd have to open up some books, but you are dealing with times on the order
>of E-12 to E-18 seconds for many particle reactions (weak or strong force
>interactions).  Particle physics texts would be the place for excited state
>lifetimes as they observe them directly in cloud chambers via the lengths of
>tracks and via knowing the velocities (energies).
[snip]
I'm not really interested in a hypothetical value based on theoretical
considerations (which is what I am afraid you may get from the books),
while OTOH not many fusion reactions take place in cloud or bubble
chambers. Perhaps someone has done work where liquid deuterium is
bombarded with deuterium ions. This would result in the occasional
fusion reaction, and might leave bubble tracks in the liquid.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 20:17:26 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13445;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:14:55 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:14:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102800b1defa4fb895 [12.64.35.185]>
In-Reply-To: <199807240942_MC2-5416-E7C8 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:00:01 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Risque t-shirts
Resent-Message-ID: <"PP4Cs.0._H3.jsKkr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20847
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>To: Vortex
>
>Years ago a friend of mine went to bank on Saturday, when the tellers dress
>informally. The teller was a buxom young lady wearing a t-shirt that said:
>"Substantial penalties for early withdrawal."
>
>I saw something similar yesterday here at the airport. A young lady from the
>avionics store was wearing a t-shirt patterned after the equipment warning
>flags you often see on aircraft. It was bright red with white stenciled
>writing across the front: "REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT."
>
>- Jed


And I've still got that "Tampere G-Shields" artwork patterned after Tampax
carton artwork which can be printed as a transfer to a shirt. Problem is,
only a few people on boards like this would get the joke.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 20:19:06 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01637;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:17:29 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:17:29 -0700
Message-ID: <35B94CDC.69D1 keelynet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:11:24 -0500
From: "Jerry W. Decker" <jdecker keelynet.com>
Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: KeelyNet-L lists.kz
CC: danyork iadfw.net, wwinters@texasonline.net, paijm001@wxs.nl,
        tbastian dmv.com, Tebearden@aol.com, zumma@zumma.com, info@escribe.com,
        reed zenergy.com, PiyushSaxena@usa.net, petkell@stc.net, psc@ont.com,
        pgb padrak.com, mbking.ORM2-1.OREM2@gw.novell.com, knuke@aa.net,
        blackice pavilion.co.uk, lloydpye@i-55.com, krscfs@svn.net,
        herman antioch-college.edu, jcollins@free-energy.co.uk,
        john1 nidlink.com, ktyls@bluecrow.com, jmanning@axionet.com,
        pinegap flash.net, hcurtis1@ix.netcom.com, Puthoff@aol.com,
        halfox uswest.net, gresh@area51.fmr.com, geraldod@bellsouth.net,
        editor infinite-energy.com, vman@skylink.net, stonierde@earthlink.net,
        danyork iadfw.net, rivas@theriver.com, baldric@earthlink.net,
        hplus nidlink.com, frolov@bcltele.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com,
        vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Don Lancaster's Latest
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"EzdJC.0.QP.9vKkr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20848
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Folks!

Here is the October 1998 article by electronics guru and arch antagonist
of 'free energy' - Don Lancaster.  

It lambastes most of the various anomalies as usual.  I love it when he
posts these as it will be that much more that he'll have to recant or
revise when we do get a working device that anyone can freely build and
test on their own.  

Now please don't fault the guy, like any sane person, he just wants a
working device and based on what he understands as fact, all the claims
thus far made are in error.  

I personally admire his approach though he does seem rather strident at
times...the opening of the article is killer..please check it out...you
will need ADOBE ACROBAT to read it which is downloadable from Don's site
at http://www.tinaja.com/
 
          http://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse129.pdf

he jokingly says this should get the 'minions' upset...anybody out there
want to write him??  He's at don tinaja.com so feel free, he does seem
to have too much time on his hands...<g>...and it will be fun to see his
response...

The sad truth of it is, he's right about no one having a working unit,
except maybe Jim Griggs with his 130% 'hydrosonic pump' that Gary
Vesperman wrote about...nice document Gary...

Well, I'm saving up all his articles and taunts (nothing meant by that
Don)...just for the day when I can repost them to him over and over and
over when he actually tests a working o/u device that he built himself
from freely posted plans on the InterNet and via snailmail to all the
networkers and researchers....heck, that's what I think most of US
WANT!!  Seeya!
-- 
            Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
          http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
             ICQ # - 13175100   /   AOL - Keelyman
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 24 20:39:21 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16316;
	Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:37:38 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:37:38 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <35B95078.BA2 keelynet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:26:48 -0500
From: "Jerry W. Decker" <jdecker keelynet.com>
Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: KeelyNet-L lists.kz
CC: vman skylink.net, halfox@uswest.net, Puthoff@aol.com,
        hcurtis1 ix.netcom.com, herman@antioch-college.edu, pgb@padrak.com,
        mbking.ORM2-1.OREM2 gw.novell.com, paijm001@wxs.nl,
        PiyushSaxena usa.net, Tebearden@aol.com, rivas@theriver.com,
        freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: The teaser (I couldn't resist..)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"SYEDK.0.d-3.zBLkr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20849
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Folks!

Here is a quote from the 'minions' piece by Don Lancaster
as posted at;

           http://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse129.pdf

"Finding a source of "unlimited free energy" would be one 
of the most HEINOUS CRIMES against humanity.  The 
unavoidable consequences of turning the planet into a 
cinder would make Hitler look like Mother Teresa.

Great heaping piles of free energy enthusiasts can be 
located on such fantasy forums as Bill Beaty's odd; 

      http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/fnrg 

or else Decker's; 

         http://www.escribe.com/science/keely 

Fortunately, ALMOST all of free energy pseudoscience 
boils down to labwork so mesmerizingly awful that it 
is NOT EVEN WRONG. To me, it sure is challenging fun 
to find out exactly where and precisely HOW they have 
SCREWED UP.

The outcome is NEVER in doubt.

Because accuratly measuring real nonlinear power or 
doing small delta T calorimetry can both be 
exceptionally difficult tasks.  Worse, they'll almost 
always output deceptively HIGH when carelessly done.  

EVERYBODY ALWAYS fouls these up.  At least on their 
first FEW HUNDRED TRIES...."
=============
To quote the Highlander,

                 "There can BE only ONE."

but I don't think Don is it..<g>....we have to MAKE THIS HAPPEN!!!

If nothing else for 'braggin rights' that we all knew it all
along!!
-- 
            Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
          http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
             ICQ # - 13175100   /   AOL - Keelyman
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 25 05:16:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12949;
	Sat, 25 Jul 1998 05:15:49 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 05:15:49 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980725081126.007df970 post.queensu.ca>
X-Sender: simonb post.queensu.ca
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:11:26 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Bart Simon <simonb post.queensu.ca>
Subject: Re: Photovoltaic service life
In-Reply-To: <020001bdb743$ba7ba880$95b4bfa8 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"9jjxm3.0.FA3.rnSkr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20850
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>
>Jed wrote:
>
>
>>To: Vortex
>>
>>Frederick J Sparber explains that a pottant is:
>>
>>Potting or encapsulation compound. Ie., that which you pot or seal
>with.  I suppose the paraffin wax used to seal up jelly jars could be called
>a pottant. Then there is the pottee.   :-)
>>
>>So . . . when you seal jelly jars with fermenting fruit, to make fruit
>punch, this may lead to a situation in which the pottant pottee is potted by
>potent potables in punch. Right?
>
>Possibly.
>
>FJS

Potentially.

-Bart




=====================================================
Bart Simon			simonb post.queensu.ca
Dept. of Sociology		http://post.queensu.ca/~simonb/
Queen's University
Kingston, Ontario		phone: 613-545-6000 x7152
K7L-3N6			fax: 613-545-2871
=====================================================


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 25 05:57:49 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26732;
	Sat, 25 Jul 1998 05:56:52 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 05:56:52 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199807251242.WAA13450 turbo.turboweb.net.au>
X-Mailer: EnRoute for Newton, Version 1.4
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Generated by EnRoute for Newton)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:48 +1000
Subject: Greetings and BANG!
From: Allan Alderson <adsaa turboweb.net.au>
To: Vortex Group <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"HcS5f1.0.cX6.IOTkr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20851
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Vortexians.
 I'm new to this list and thought I'd say hello. My interest is in toroidal
vortex, their generation and dynamics (hey, sometimes I dream about them).
I've made a simple vortex generator/launcher using a 4" woofer in an
inclosure driven by an adjustable pulse generator. I'm currently trying to
optimise wave.shape to produce a nice, stable torus. Any ideas? I'm not a
scientist, I'm a "I wonder what would happen if..." person. 
Shortly - in a week or two - I'm going to detonate a (moving) toroid of
oxygen & acceteline just to see what happens. Has anyone done this? I
suspect the torus will remain unchanged except for it's temperature, size,
velocity and possibly direction. Would anyone like to guess at how big a 4"
torus of a chemically-correct explosive mixture might get after detonation?
 I don't see it as being extremely dangerous as the gas is not really
inside anything, sort of like an infinately expandable, unbreakable
balloon. Comments? 
Bye for now, Allan.

BANG!
:-)
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 25 06:18:31 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00241;
	Sat, 25 Jul 1998 06:17:31 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 06:17:31 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <002e01bdb7cc$ec1a4d40$228f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings and BANG!
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:05:27 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"yrN8z2.0.f3.fhTkr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20852
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Allan Alderson <adsaa turboweb.net.au>
To: Vortex Group <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Date: Saturday, July 25, 1998 6:55 AM
Subject: Greetings and BANG!

Allan wrote:


>Hi Vortexians.
> I'm new to this list and thought I'd say hello. My interest is in toroidal
>vortex, their generation and dynamics (hey, sometimes I dream about them).
>I've made a simple vortex generator/launcher using a 4" woofer in an
>inclosure driven by an adjustable pulse generator. I'm currently trying to
>optimise wave.shape to produce a nice, stable torus. Any ideas? I'm not a
>scientist, I'm a "I wonder what would happen if..." person.
>Shortly - in a week or two - I'm going to detonate a (moving) toroid of
>oxygen & acceteline just to see what happens. Has anyone done this? I
>suspect the torus will remain unchanged except for it's temperature, size,
>velocity and possibly direction. Would anyone like to guess at how big a 4"
>torus of a chemically-correct explosive mixture might get after detonation?
> I don't see it as being extremely dangerous as the gas is not really
>inside anything, sort of like an infinately expandable, unbreakable
>balloon. Comments?
>Bye for now, Allan.

Bye forever,if your not careful, Allan.

Regards,   Frederick
>
>BANG!
>:-)
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 25 07:17:02 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA22086;
	Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:15:54 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:15:54 -0700
Message-ID: <003a01bdb7d6$2b1199a0$228f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <adsaa turboweb.net.au>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>, "Vortex-L" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings and BANG!
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:11:31 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"4DXSA2.0.vO5.QYUkr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20854
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Allan,

Before you try your VORTEX DETONATION EXPERIMENT, look at the numbers!

The Btu content of a cubic foot of Acetylene gas is 1,402 Btu's. At 778
Foot-Pounds/BTU
a 4" diameter x 6" long *cylinder* of acetylene-air or O2, can release about
48,000 foot-pounds of energy in a few millionths of a second. This is enough
energy to lift a 6 TON
TRUCK 4 feet in the air during that time!

I inadvertently did such an experiment 15 years ago, in Roswell, New Mexico.
It sheared off
the top of a 12 inch diameter drum and imbedded it in the steel ceiling of
the shop. It was all over before you could hear the ear-splitting
BANG.

You might call it THE SECOND ROSWELL INCIDENT!

After all there was a "Flying Disc" That Crashed, except I was within a
fraction of second from being DECAPITATED by it.

If you don't have a BLAST SHIELD and a 5,000 frame/second Camera, DON"T EVEN
TRY IT!

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 25 07:20:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA06833;
	Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:17:29 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:17:29 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980725233731.00882c60 main.murray.net.au>
X-Sender: egel main.murray.net.au
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 23:37:31 +0900
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
From: GEOFF EGEL <egel main.murray.net.au>
Subject: Re: New articles at my Solaris web site
Cc: danyork iadfw.net, wwinters@texasonline.net, paijm001@wxs.nl,
        tbastian dmv.com, Tebearden@aol.com, zumma@zumma.com, info@escribe.com,
        reed zenergy.com, PiyushSaxena@usa.net, petkell@stc.net, psc@ont.com,
        pgb padrak.com, mbking.ORM2-1.OREM2@gw.novell.com, knuke@aa.net,
        blackice pavilion.co.uk, lloydpye@i-55.com, krscfs@svn.net,
        herman antioch-college.edu, jcollins@free-energy.co.uk,
        john1 nidlink.com, ktyls@bluecrow.com, jmanning@axionet.com,
        pinegap flash.net, hcurtis1@ix.netcom.com, Puthoff@aol.com,
        halfox uswest.net, gresh@area51.fmr.com, geraldod@bellsouth.net,
        editor infinite-energy.com, vman@skylink.net, stonierde@earthlink.net,
        danyork iadfw.net, rivas@theriver.com, baldric@earthlink.net,
        hplus nidlink.com, frolov@bcltele.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com,
        vortex-l eskimo.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"oz4A-2.0.gg1.rZUkr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20853
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 08:32 AM 6/28/98 -0700, you wrote:
I have added some new stuff at my geocities Solaris site

Article that I have promised for some time

A radio powered motor circu  1930
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135/radmot.html


Bruce Perreault Radiant Energy Research Manual   in html  format
by kind permission on the Author

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135/bruce.html

A project I am currently working on in ralation to the Swiss ML
with photos of some of the construction

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135/project.html



Geoff

http://geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135
Solaris searching for natures energy sources.

Geoff Egel
18 Sturt Street
Loxton 5333
South Australia
Australia

Phone  (08) (8584 5201)
Usually can be reached hereafter  6 pm local time 
(Monday - Saturday)
Central Australian time
others times you cannot be certain of getting me here.

Like to hear from You,  I expect this to apply only to Australian viewers

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 25 08:06:45 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA12989;
	Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:58:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Faster than light Update
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980725074819.22366A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"_fO4-2.0.tA3.ZEVkr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20855
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Vortex people interested in the above topic-

I talked with Leonard Mandel of the University of Rochester Optics lab the
other day and he agreed to look at our case. If anyone is interested in
what is going on here I'll be glad to outline the general idea for the
group. Does anybody care?

Jim Ostrowski


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 25 09:18:41 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22944;
	Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:17:28 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:17:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Risque t-shirts
Cc: Bburchett1 aol.com, rleinweb@lcc.net, BZERBOB@aol.com,
        GREGORY_BARKER MMACMAIL.JCCBI.GOV, frascone@flash.net, ltatham@ibm.net,
        markdebc juno.com, markkhx18g@aol.com, tatham@burke.com
Message-Id: <19980725160453.ORF25265 Default>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:04:53 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"hHQCV.0.Pc5.LKWkr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20856
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Don't you realize that one commits sexual harrassment by reading the
t-shirts? It's all a very 'risque' business.

>To: Vortex
>
>Years ago a friend of mine went to bank on Saturday, when the tellers dress
>informally. The teller was a buxom young lady wearing a t-shirt that said:
>"Substantial penalties for early withdrawal."
>
>I saw something similar yesterday here at the airport. A young lady from the
>avionics store was wearing a t-shirt patterned after the equipment warning
>flags you often see on aircraft. It was bright red with white stenciled
>writing across the front: "REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT."
>
>- Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 25 09:25:45 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04183;
	Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:24:47 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:24:47 -0700
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:25:12 -0700
Message-Id: <199807251625.JAA13929 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: D-D hot fusion
Resent-Message-ID: <"is0gK.0.H11.ERWkr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20857
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


>I'm not really interested in a hypothetical value based on theoretical
>considerations (which is what I am afraid you may get from the books),

Not true.  The numbers in the books all come from experiment.  Theory cannot
predict these things except as "fits" to the experimental data, when you
boil it down and look back over the history.

>while OTOH not many fusion reactions take place in cloud or bubble
>chambers. Perhaps someone has done work where liquid deuterium is
>bombarded with deuterium ions. This would result in the occasional
>fusion reaction, and might leave bubble tracks in the liquid.

Many many fusion reactions have been observed and documented over the years.
Deuterons are commonly used particles in accelerators, though this is "low
energy" work so you have to look back in history for these kind of
reactions.  Today's accelerators are much higher energy seeking fundamental
things about matter, not simple fusion reactions.  Oppenheimer used
deuterons in his research and called them the most useful particles for
making radioisotopes.  You strip the neutron off the deuteron and whatever
nucleus it binds to is likely to become radioactive (check isotope table).

Anyway, these tracks are observed directly, and by knowing some details
about the accelerator you have a clue as to how much energy, and thus the
velocities of the fragments.  Ergo, you can measure line lengths and come up
with lifetimes for the particles in various conditions, ie excited states.

Ross Tessien




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 25 10:27:39 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10149;
	Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:26:55 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 10:26:55 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980725122821.008a4940 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:28:21 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings and BANG!
In-Reply-To: <199807251242.WAA13450 turbo.turboweb.net.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"777_z2.0.PU2.ULXkr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20858
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 10:48 PM 7/25/98 +1000, Allan Alderson wrote:

>Shortly - in a week or two - I'm going to detonate a (moving) toroid of
>oxygen & acceteline just to see what happens. Has anyone done this?

A friend of mine is fond of setting off C2H2-O2 bombs in the following
manner.  He lights an oxy-acetylene torch and adjusts the flame for neutral
combustion (i.e. stoichiometric burning).  He then snuffs the flame out on
a cold piece of metal and uses the flowing gas mixture to inflate an
ordinary toy balloon.  He ties off the balloon and ignites it by touching
it with a burning ember (a pretty long one!).  The resulting BANG is awesome.

How are you going to make a moving toroid of C2H2-O2 without having the
whole room full of the same gas?  If you somehow launch a C2H2-O2 vortex
out of a chamber full of this gas mixture into a room full of air...and
subsequently ignite the vortex...how will you guard against the flame
flashing back into the chamber and blowing it (and possibly you) to little
pieces?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 25 13:58:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24326;
	Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:56:42 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:56:42 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:42:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Greg Ahronian ... a fellow who has been involved with patents....
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980725163633.7121C-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"JYIFm.0.0y5.7Qakr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20859
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


	 Dear Vo.,

	 I am searching for the E mail for Greg Ahronian...the spelling 
may be off.
	I am also looking for anyone who knows anything about he 
mechanism of and-or formula for the 'assessment' of patents.  I have 
recently been notified all claims have been granted for an non signature 
based method for detecting computer viruses, myself and primary 
inventor.  The same appears to hold true for the international patent
	"An Improved Method and Apparatus for Gravity Modification"


		Thanks,

			John


	And, yes, all comers welcome.  :)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 25 18:52:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA30138;
	Sat, 25 Jul 1998 18:46:08 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 18:46:08 -0700
Sender: jack pop.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <35BA41B1.75D0769F mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:36:01 +0000
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Faster than light Update
References: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980725074819.22366A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"dUh582.0.qM7.Vfekr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20860
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jim Ostrowski wrote:
> 
> Vortex people interested in the above topic-
> 
> I talked with Leonard Mandel of the University of
> Rochester Optics lab the other day and he
> agreed to look at our case. If anyone is interested in
> what is going on here I'll be glad to outline the general idea for the
> group. Does anybody care?
> 
> Jim Ostrowski

Hi Jim,

I'm interested.

Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 25 19:21:59 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03149;
	Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:19:44 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:19:44 -0700
Message-Id: <199807260215.WAA29859 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings and BANG!
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 98 22:24:31 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"B7ay53.0.7n._8fkr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20861
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> I'm currently trying to
>optimise wave.shape to produce a nice, stable torus. Any ideas? I'm not a
>scientist, I'm a "I wonder what would happen if..." person. 

When I was in high schoool, I filled 12-inch to 18-inch diameter balloons 
with acetylene and oxygen mix from a plumber's torch (my dad was then a 
plumber, he is now retired).  I ignited them remotely with electrical 
ignition or sometimes with a delay "fuse" of paper burnign up to the 
balloon. Yes, the explosions were deafening and left an amazing thin 
coating of carbon all over the lawn nearby the former baloon. What was 
most amazing, however, was the dark *vortex ring* that would rise from 
this spehrical baloon explosion. It always went very high in the air. 
Neat stuff, but you have ot be VERY careful! Furthermore, today such 
experiments would be politically incorrect and possibly misinterpreted.

Best, Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 25 19:34:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19659;
	Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:32:47 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:32:47 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980725222111.007f7100 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:21:11 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Infinite Energy
Cc: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"rS3xw.0.4p4.DLfkr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20862
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


   Gene Mallove has tirelessly put out a superb 
information-rich issue of "Infinite Energy" (v4, number 20).

  IMO, one of his best yet, even the cover is good.

Those interested in cold fusion should check it out.

        Mitchell Swartz



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 25 21:45:48 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20390;
	Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:53:15 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:53:15 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <008b01bdb83f$62253d20$228f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings and BANG!
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:44:10 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"YnoKa3.0.W-4.Pefkr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20863
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: E.F. Mallove <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: VORTEX <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Saturday, July 25, 1998 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: Greetings and BANG!

Gene wrote:
>
>When I was in high school, I filled 12-inch to 18-inch diameter balloons
>with acetylene and oxygen mix from a plumber's torch (my dad was then a
>plumber, he is now retired).

I came across an interesting effect using an acetylene torch while working
on high temperature-high vacuum. The threads of many
metals "cold welded" after a while in the vacuum. I found that you could
heat the threads
(nuts or bolts) with the torch, then kill the flame, but spray the acetylene
on the heated
parts and they would continue to stay nearly red-hot and
"carbonize-grapitize" which alleviated the vacuum "cold-weld" problem.

>I ignited them remotely with electrical
>ignition or sometimes with a delay "fuse" of paper burning up to the
>balloon. Yes, the explosions were deafening and left an amazing thin
>coating of carbon all over the lawn nearby the former balloon.

The very exothermic H-C***C-H acetylene molecule wants to shed the H2 and
form Carbon-Carbon bonds, most likely there are lots of Fullerene
"Buckyballs" in that carbon deposit.

>What was
>most amazing, however, was the dark *vortex ring* that would rise from
>this spherical balloon explosion. It always went very high in the air.

Torus Smoke-Ring?

>Neat stuff, but you have ot be VERY careful!

This CANNOT BE OVER-EMPHASIZED!

 >Furthermore, today such
>experiments would be politically incorrect and possibly misinterpreted.

Where did you get that idea, Gene?   :-)

Regards,  Frederick
>
>Best, Gene Mallove
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 25 21:43:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09989;
	Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:54:26 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:54:26 -0700
Message-ID: <19980726033436.25027.rocketmail send1c.yahoomail.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 20:34:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: ron kita <tekcorman yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Greg Ahronian ... a fellow who has been involved with patents....
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"AUbO8.0.wR2.nXgkr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20864
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 






---John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu> wrote:
>
> 
> 	 Dear Vo.,
> 
> 	 I am searching for the E mail for Greg Ahronian...the spelling 
> may be off.
> 	I am also looking for anyone who knows anything about he 
> mechanism of and-or formula for the 'assessment' of patents.  I have 
> recently been notified all claims have been granted for an non
signature 
> based method for detecting computer viruses, myself and primary 
> inventor.  The same appears to hold true for the international patent
> 	"An Improved Method and Apparatus for Gravity Modification"
> 
> 
> 		Thanks,
> 
> 			John
> 
> 
> 	And, yes, all comers welcome.  :)
> 
the correct spelling is Ahronson...he frequently posts
to the alt.inventors usenet group..do an altavista
usenet search...should be an easy find...will try
forwarding one of his posts.
Best,
Ron Kita
gravity voicenet.com...preferred e-mail address 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 25 22:16:03 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20238;
	Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:10:37 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:10:37 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980725234219.0080e520 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 23:42:19 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Infinite Energy - circuit correction?
Cc: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"YgpKG1.0.7y4.Cfhkr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20865
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


   In "Infinite Energy" (v4, number 20) on page 11
there is an electrical circuit which doesnt look quite
correct.   Presumably it represents a full wave rectifier,
but as drawn, some the diodes appear wired backwards.
   It was probably correct in the expt, but those who
copy the expt, might consider this further.

        Mitchell Swartz




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 26 01:57:32 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA05439;
	Sun, 26 Jul 1998 01:52:55 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 01:52:55 -0700
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 01:56:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Faster than light Update
In-Reply-To: <35BA41B1.75D0769F mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980726014535.14680A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"PAxqN1.0.uK1.cvkkr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20866
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Taylor J. Smith wrote:


> Jim Ostrowski wrote:

[snip]

 Does anybody care?

> > 
> > Jim Ostrowski
> 
> Hi Jim,
> 
> I'm interested.
> 
> Jack Smith
> 
> 

OK , thanks , Jack ... I was beginning to wonder.

Stand by for ascii upload : (My MS Internet Mail FTP upload is broken)

C:\command.com
cd\
cd procomm
procomm.exe
[Enter]

 
 Somewhat deep background:
 
 Several years ago (1991) a friend of mine and I became interested
 in the subject matter contained in the following article:
 
       Title of Article: Immediate Interstellar Communications
                 Author: Philip B. Wright
           Organization: University of Winnepeg, Winnepeg Canada R3B 2E9
            Publication: Speculations in Science and Technology
              Publisher: Elsevier Sequioa Lausanne
                  LIb #: ISSN 0155-7785
                  Issue: August 1979 ,Vol 2 #3
 
 
  This  letter  to  the editor is a fairly brief document which for
 the most part has to do with a philosopical notion that our way of
 thinking about nature and describing it's processes became  flawed
 by  a  reasoning  process  hatched  around the turn of the century
 which is based on absolute cause - effect relationships . It  goes
 this way :
 
  First there is an "event" which is termed as the cause of another
 event  which  happens AFTER the first one. This first event taking
 place at position A  is  said  to  be  independent  of  conditions
 prevailing  where  the  second  event is supposed to take place at
 position B.  That is: The way in which "cause" events  take  place
 supposedly  cannot  be  influenced  by  conditions prevailing at a
 "later" time at the location where the "effect"  event  will  take
 place , which is in the "future" . Future events are thus presumed
 to  be  unable  to  influence  past events when they are spatially
 separated by some arbitrary distance.
 
  " Effect " events that are separated by a  distance  r  from  the
 causal ones therefore , according to this reasoning , cannot occur
 any  time  "sooner"  that  time  t+r/c , where c is the "speed" of
 light.
 
  Professor  Mendel Sachs, author of several books about relativity
 and the continuing  controversies  in  physics,  has  pointed  out
 however  that according to Einstein's theory of relativity , there
 can be no absolute sequential ordering of events  separated  by  a
 spacial  distance  r where one might identify one particular event
 as a cause and another one as an effect  ESPECIALLY  if  they  are
 "related"  through  "mutual interactions" such as the inductor and
 capacitor in resonant electrical or mass and spring in  mechanical
 systems.
 
 Paraphrasing Professor Sachs -
 
     The  quality  of  a  radiation  event is not only dependent on
 conditions  at  the  emitter  (say,  a  flashlight)  but  is  also
 dependent  upon  conditions  at  the  absorber (how about a black
 object like a lump of coal or the retinas of our eyes being warmed
 by the "beam" ? ).
 
  If the statement above was shown to be true, then that would mean
 that  there  is some element of the mechanism of light propagation
 that originates at the detector end and "influences" the  emitting
 end  somehow,  and  therefore  would  seem to require some kind of
 enhancement, at least, to Einstein's second  postulate,  that  the
 "speed"  of  light  is  a  constant,  equal  to c BECAUSE LIGHT IS
 RECKONED IN THAT POSTULATE AS A THING THAT "TRAVELS" ,  like,  for
 example - a bullet through the air.
 
 Therefore: "photons" --- ah yes , photons. Wonderful concept. Just
 like bullets.
 
 It has been argued that photons must exist based on the fact  that
 there exists technological devices we call "photon counters".
 
 One  is  tempted  to ask then , if there are such things as photon
 counters , then how many photons are there ? And  once  they  have
 been  counted  ,  is  the amount that have been counted subtracted
 from the total ?
 
 Just another question which I have no answer for.
 
 But I digress.
 
  Anyhow he implication here of course is that there  is  something
 going  on  in  such  an  idea as Sachs expresses that involves the
 transfer of information from the detector back to the emitter that
 on first consideration might seem to violate causality.
 
 And here we are right back where we started - Causality- i.e. Cause
 and effect relationships .
 
 Wasn't that fun?
 
  I  will return later with more about this , Jack.   There's a lot
 here , including descriptions of experiments , gif images of  them,
 recent  developments   etc.  Way   more   than  I'm  sure  can  be
 digested in one or two posts.
 
 Jim Ostrowski
 
 
 
 






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 26 12:21:38 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25065;
	Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:19:41 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:19:41 -0700
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:20:22 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
Reply-To: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Greetings and BANG!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980725122821.008a4940 mail.eden.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.980726123551.7483A-100000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"0TXUI.0.Z76.C5ukr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20867
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Scott Little wrote:
At 10:48 PM 7/25/98 +1000, Allan Alderson wrote:
>Shortly - in a week or two - I'm going to detonate a (moving) toroid of
>oxygen & acceteline just to see what happens. Has anyone done this?
A friend of mine is fond of setting off C2H2-O2 bombs in the following
manner.  He lights an oxy-acetylene torch and adjusts the flame for neutral
combustion (i.e. stoichiometric burning).  He then snuffs the flame out on
a cold piece of metal and uses the flowing gas mixture to inflate an
ordinary toy balloon.  He ties off the balloon and ignites it by touching
it with a burning ember (a pretty long one!).  The resulting BANG is awesome.
-snip-
------------------
Hi Scott, 
ref:THOR God of Thunder:)

   Just curious since you called it an "awesome" BANG.. I bought my boys a
carbide (safe & sane Big-Bang BOOMer) *CANNON (pat. 1907 to a Lehigh
University
(Bethlehem, PA) professor of Physics 1905-1920: 'James Hunter Wily'
which uses Calcium Carbide mixed with H20 to produce acetylene (only) and
Ignited by a flint-SPARK* (Boom is comparable to a VERY GOOD & LOUDEST
Automotive Back-fire!) echo's throughout the neighborhood on the
fourth of July & new years eve: Lot's of fun :) Almost=M80 sound.
---
Is your mentioned (neutral, stoichiometric burning), boom greater than
pure acetylene? or since the cannon has atmoshpere to start, O2 included
are we talking the same thing?  the *Cannons interior capacity is only
about 4-6 square INCHES. So maybe I have answered my own question if your
balloon is average sized..(i.e. Bigger=Bigger Boom).
---
  The cannons only flaw, (if any) is the resultant LIME, so you only
average about 50-100 'shots' per ounce of water. Plus, a wetted flint &
steel if (the boys) moved around and sloshing the water.
 Now, If one were
to have
a (skyward (safely-pointed) morter tube in ones back yard, and a pieazo or
high voltage spark plug
igniter trigger 'set-up' in the base.... a balloon sounds like just the
"Cartridge" to solve the above problems of water-wetted flint!

-=se=-
steve (automating? More Boom for your buck :) ekwall
ekwall2 diac.com

for those interested:
*Big-Bang Cannon* (recommend for boys of ALL ages<g>:) can be found  
The Conestoga Company, Inc.
P.O. Box 405
Bethlehem, PA 18016
TollFree: 1-800-987-BANG (2264)
in PA (610)866-0777
Fax: (610)433-8406
advertized as a Safe substitute for Fireworks
Plus it looks *cool* (see Cannon on wheels!:)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 26 12:24:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26526;
	Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:22:47 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 12:22:47 -0700
From: VCockeram aol.com
Message-ID: <66f3b719.35bb81d1 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 15:21:41 EDT
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Greetings and BANG!
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62
Resent-Message-ID: <"qE2vY.0.JU6.78ukr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20868
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

In a message dated 98-07-25 10:17:02 EDT, you write:
> From:	fjsparb sprintmail.com (Frederick J Sparber)
>  Allan,
>  Before you try your VORTEX DETONATION EXPERIMENT, look at the numbers!
>>  The Btu content of a cubic foot of Acetylene gas is 1,402 Btu's. At 778
>  Foot-Pounds/BTU
>  a 4" diameter x 6" long *cylinder* of acetylene-air or O2, can release
about
>  48,000 foot-pounds of energy .....<snip>

Allen,
Please don't try this. I tried it with a, about 12 inch diameter baloon filled
with acetylene + O2 in a "perfect" mixture (from an oxyacetylene torch that
had been fired up to a nice hot flame then put out in a bucket of water). 
I tied an oil soaked string to the baloon and lit the string on the ground in 
the driveway behing my house.
All 18 panes of glass in the rear of the house and 10 panes in the garage 
doors were blown in.  Respect them numbers Allen.

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 26 13:30:59 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06426;
	Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:29:35 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:29:35 -0700
Message-ID: <002e01bdb8d3$89af01c0$c98f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings and BANG!
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:24:47 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"vptMJ.0.Ja1.k6vkr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20869
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

All you Ordinance people take note:

Acetylene DOESN'T NEED O2 TO EXPLODE:

C2H2 ---> 2C + H2 + 50,000 Calories, that is
why it is stored dissolved in acetone-inorganic filler.

By the same token:

H2 + 1/2 O2 ---> H2O +  50,000  Calories.

And: C2H2 + H2O --->  CH3-CHO (Acetaldehyde) + 30,000 Calories.  :-)

The exothermic reaction of Two Inorganic Compounds, CaC2 (Calcium Carbide)
and H2O to make Organic Compounds and Similar exothermic, water-reactive
compounds of Nitrogen (Calcium Nitrides and Cyanides) May Be the bridge to
the Origin Of Life (before photosynthesis).

These compounds Might have originated as
"Space Dust" and exothermally reacted in the primordial seas.

But if you Guys keep it up, it may be a vehicle
for Mass Extinction, as Vince pointed out with the authority of experience.
:-)







From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 26 16:15:59 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27435;
	Sun, 26 Jul 1998 16:14:57 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 16:14:57 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980726180819.008a7b90 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 18:08:19 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Greetings and BANG!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.UW2.3.95.980726123551.7483A-100000 november>
References: <3.0.5.32.19980725122821.008a4940 mail.eden.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"hJpQu2.0.bi6.lXxkr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20870
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 01:20 PM 7/26/98 -0600, Steve Ekwall wrote:

>Is your mentioned (neutral, stoichiometric burning), boom greater than
>pure acetylene?

I'm pretty sure it is, since there's pure O2 to go with the C2H2 whereas in
the cannon, all you've got is air (20% O2- 80% N2).  Complicating matters
is the reaction Fred mentioned whereby C2H2 decomposes ALL BY ITSELF.  I
wonder if that is happening inside the cannon to any degree?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 26 17:54:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04147;
	Sun, 26 Jul 1998 17:51:21 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 17:51:21 -0700
X-Authentication-Warning: sh.diac.com: ekwall2 owned process doing -bs
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 18:48:02 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Greetings and BANG!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980726180819.008a7b90 mail.eden.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980726175514.12927A-100000 sh.diac.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"5WRbw1.0.i01.8yykr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20871
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, Scott Little wrote:
At 01:20 PM 7/26/98 -0600, Steve Ekwall wrote:
>Is your mentioned (neutral, stoichiometric burning), boom greater than
>pure acetylene?

I'm pretty sure it is, since there's pure O2 to go with the C2H2 whereas in
the cannon, all you've got is air (20% O2- 80% N2).  Complicating matters
is the reaction Fred mentioned whereby C2H2 decomposes ALL BY ITSELF.  I
wonder if that is happening inside the cannon to any degree?
-------------------
Hi Scott, 
   Just for the record here on the safety of things... referencing C2H2
Acetylene only..
decomposing all by itself... the Calcium Carbide is prone to decomposition
from just the humidity in the air. the Cannon Co. provides a tube (1/2
toothpaste like in size = 100 shots) but if left uncap or just sitting,
the grey-white powder after a while goes WHITE .dead. (= dud boom duh! :(
  I:we should ask Fred, but I would think the H20 added residue =
CAC2(calcium carbide) + H20(water) ---> CA(OH)2(lime) + C2H2(acetylene) 
ignite = *BOOM* simple/but effective.
  From this lower life form ordinance camper (remember "electricians" used
to lick the cathodes/diodes on testing batteries for 'ThAtS a GoOd OnE~'%} 
The Cannon's residue: Looks like LIME+water: smells like LIME & H20 : and
YES, even TASTE like LIME and water :)  <still grining to date>
   /so, even ediable? non-toxic? (whatever for the 4+ yr olds out there:), 
That might try to drink it <g>

Question: Is a dissolution -vs- decomposition shelve-life ratio rate
realitive to this thread [Hey, I'm a 4th of July kind of guy!:)]
Is Osmosis (through a standard balloon skin) faster than decomposition of
C2H2?

Ref: Thread, I forgot who started it, but HE should consider AIR
(atmosphere) adding 20% O2, or the above in a vortex twirled chamber, and
"humidity" (H20) at time of experiment.. 

BE CAREFUL - HAVE FUN!

-=se=-
steve (more boom for the buck :) ekwall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul 26 20:26:11 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07126;
	Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:22:32 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:22:32 -0700
Message-ID: <005201bdb90d$3b3cddc0$c98f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>, <llano5@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Blow and Run Biomass Gasifier
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:17:50 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"Id77d3.0.Al1.t9_kr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20872
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

BTW, John,

The Blow and Run Gasifiers work MUCH BETTER using Palletized Biomass. There
are commercially available pelletizers, or you can
make your own,(with attention to energy requirements).

However, Bunny Rabbits, or a Billy Goat (possible heavy metal contamination
problem here)will do this for you on your lawn...  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 00:16:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA09319;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:15:34 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:15:34 -0700 (PDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 00:08:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
Reply-To: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Falaco solitons: no BANG vortices
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980726235227.26534E-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"mgQzD.0.WH2.Ka2lr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20873
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


We just installed a huge plastic swimming pool, and besides playing with
all sorts of cool wave propagation and focussing effects, I finally got a
chance to mess with Falaco solitons:

  http://www22.pair.com/csdc/car/carfre3.htm

These are ring-vortices, but underwater, and only the lower half of
the ring is there.  The author of the above website notes that if they can
be created in perfect half-ring shape, their lifetime is incredibly long.

I found that an old Frisbee works great for generating them.  I use it as
a scoop, pushing it along and slowly withdrawing it upwards so the "smoke
ring" stays laminar.  The termination points of the half-ring at the
surface of the water cause lens effects, and in sunshine the shadow of the
ring is visible on the pool bottom.

One can launch a fast ring at a slow one.  If aimed right, the fast one
will pass through the hole, but one shrinks and the other expands.  If
they hit each other, they disrupt (although one black shadow-spot dies
first, and it seems to take awhile for the wave of disruption to reach
the other black spot.)  Two people, one at either end of the pool, can
have long, slow, smoke-ring fights.

I occasionally could succeed in producing one with my hands, but the
Frisbee reliably made one every time.

See also: CARTAN'S CORNER
          http://www22.pair.com/csdc/car/carhomep.htm

Fascinating!

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 04:06:38 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07465;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:05:18 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:05:18 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:55:55 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Methane Conversion Patents
In-Reply-To: <35B8A1A0.72F1B70 css.mot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980727115404.17721A iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"1R_KZ1.0.Yq1.ix5lr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20874
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, John Steck wrote:

> Miniature fuel cell technology, at Los Alamos National Laboratory by Robert
> Hockaday.  His startup company to finish R&D and bring it to market, Energy
> Related Devices Inc.  Major investor, Manhattan Scientifics, Inc.
> 
> <http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5631099>
> 
> 5631099 : Surface replica fuel cell 
> INVENTORS:  Hockaday; Robert G., Los Alamos, NM
> ISSUED:     May 20, 1997
> FILED:  Sep. 21, 1995
> 
> Check the vortex archives for 1/98.  Look for the thread titled "Hockaday
> cellular phone fuel cell, Los Alamos" for the complete press releases forwarded
> by Rich Murray.

Was also in Scientific American.

> > I'm not entirely convinced that the oil companies are pro-development.
> 
> What partially convinced you?  8^)
Obviously human nature.

Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 04:16:55 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA28537;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:12:05 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:12:05 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980727061332.008a4a50 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 06:13:32 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Falaco solitons: no BANG vortices
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980726235227.26534E-100000 eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"-nSxo2.0.pz6.526lr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20875
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: A

At 12:08 AM 7/27/98 -0700, William Beaty wrote:

>We just installed a huge plastic swimming pool, and besides playing with
>all sorts of cool wave propagation and focussing effects, I finally got a
>chance to mess with Falaco solitons:
>
>  http://www22.pair.com/csdc/car/carfre3.htm

Very interesting, Bill!  Have you tried this yet:

>The 1-dimensional defect, or string, is made visible by injecting dye
drops >near a dimple vertex. The dye drop executes helical transverse wave
motion
>about the thread which acts as a guiding center.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 04:35:01 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA29998;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:32:02 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:32:02 -0700
Message-ID: <006b01bdb951$9c8519a0$c98f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Falaco solitons: no BANG vortices
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:27:49 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"ixFCJ.0.eK7.nK6lr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20876
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Monday, July 27, 1998 5:15 AM
Subject: Re: Falaco solitons: no BANG vortices

Scott Little wrote:


>At 12:08 AM 7/27/98 -0700, William Beaty wrote:
>
>>We just installed a huge plastic swimming pool, and besides playing with
>>all sorts of cool wave propagation and focussing effects, I finally got a
>>chance to mess with Falaco solitons:
>>
>>  http://www22.pair.com/csdc/car/carfre3.htm
>
>Very interesting, Bill!  Have you tried this yet:

Extremely Interesting,Bill!
>
>>The 1-dimensional defect, or string, is made visible by injecting dye
>drops >near a dimple vertex. The dye drop executes helical transverse wave
>motion
>>about the thread which acts as a guiding center.

Great Model for One-Dimensional String Particles-Quarks/SuperString Theory.
IOW the Soliton Inverse is a bounded String Particle?

Regards,    Frederick
>
>
>Scott Little
>EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
>512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX)
>little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 04:45:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA31832;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:41:17 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:41:17 -0700
Message-ID: <007801bdb952$e745a580$c98f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject:  Noncryogenic Air Separation (http://www.boc.com/gases/air/noncryo/psa.htm)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:36:54 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BDB920.90C89B40"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"bc2Qy1.0.En7.ST6lr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20877
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BDB920.90C89B40
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

But you can go for the high purity O2, Too.

http://www.boc.com/gases/air/noncryo/psa.htm

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BDB920.90C89B40
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name=" Noncryogenic Air Separation.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename=" Noncryogenic Air Separation.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.boc.com/gases/air/noncryo/psa.htm
Modified=2078AEB152B9BD01C0

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BDB920.90C89B40--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 05:02:20 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA10900;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:56:39 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:56:39 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <007f01bdb953$f1a9c0a0$c98f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: home page (http://www.ogsi.com/)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:44:28 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BDB921.9E93FD40"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"WU_lZ2.0.Dg2.sh6lr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20878
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BDB921.9E93FD40
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Can you live with 95% purity O2 to get around 
NOx when burning H2, Robert?    :-)    FJS

http://www.ogsi.com/

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BDB921.9E93FD40
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="home page.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="home page.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.ogsi.com/
Modified=C0DC6E9B53B9BD016F

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BDB921.9E93FD40--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 05:07:55 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA11879;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:05:38 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:05:38 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <008f01bdb955$3286dda0$c98f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Arbor Research Corporation (http://arborresearch.com/aboutpsa.html)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:52:27 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01BDB922.BC8C9B80"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"r6mP-3.0.Wv2.Gq6lr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20879
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BDB922.BC8C9B80
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



http://arborresearch.com/aboutpsa.html

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BDB922.BC8C9B80
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="Arbor Research Corporation.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Arbor Research Corporation.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://arborresearch.com/aboutpsa.html
Modified=E05983FC54B9BD0183

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BDB922.BC8C9B80--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 05:36:06 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA16094;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:31:12 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:31:12 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <009c01bdb958$c1fd3760$c98f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: cfcms (http://cmt.ms.ornl.gov/cimtech/cfcms/cfcms.pdf)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 06:08:12 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01BDB924.EFDF6C40"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"XzFPy1.0.Mx3.EC7lr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20880
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BDB924.EFDF6C40
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Carbon Fiber Mole-Sieve & Catalyst Support
Need Adobe Reader.

http://cmt.ms.ornl.gov/cimtech/cfcms/cfcms.pdf

------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BDB924.EFDF6C40
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="cfcms.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="cfcms.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://cmt.ms.ornl.gov/cimtech/cfcms/cfcms.pdf
Modified=80B2D80657B9BD01DE

------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BDB924.EFDF6C40--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 07:44:45 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19566;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:22:32 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:22:32 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35BC8D3E.FB5EAF72 css.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:22:54 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Blow and Run Biomass Gasifier
References: <005201bdb90d$3b3cddc0$c98f85ce default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"4FGO22.0.dn4.eq8lr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20881
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frederick J Sparber wrote:
> The Blow and Run Gasifiers work MUCH BETTER using Palletized Biomass. 
> There are commercially available pelletizers, or you can
> make your own,(with attention to energy requirements).

Any links you can point me towards?  Interested in learning more about both
approaches.


-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
         Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
         Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 07:58:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA07480;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:45:31 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:45:31 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:34:18 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Mouse clone skeptics
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807271037_MC2-5445-5EA compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"tK4kY3.0.gq1.5A9lr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20882
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

There was a good article about the recent mouse cloning by Dr. Yanagimachi:

G. Kolata, "In Big Advance in Cloning, Biologists Create 50 Mice," New York
Times, July 23, 1998

I thought there would be no skeptical doubts about cloning, but I
underestimated people. It turns out Dr. Norton D. Zinder still says he does
not believe it, despite overwhelming evidence; the journal Science rejected
the experiment saying it was "not of general interest;" and Nature only
published it after giving Yanagimachi the run-around. Attached are some quotes
from the article. I just LOVE this statement about "an anecdote, not a
result." Kinda like the first incandescent lights, the first organ
transplants, and the top quark, eh Dr. Zinder?

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Scientists from Hawaii said yesterday that they had made dozens of adult mouse
clones and even cloned some of those clones. The announcement, coming after
months of rumors, still stunned biologists when they heard the details . . .

In today's issue of Nature, Dr. Ryuzo Yanagimachi, a 69-year-old biologist at
the University of Hawaii and his postdoctoral student, Dr. Teruhiko Wakayama,
report on the first 22 mice that are clones, seven of which are clones of
clones . . .


Dr. Lee Silver, a mouse geneticist and reproductive biologist at Princeton
University, described the speed at which the cloning progressed as
breathtaking.

"It's absolutely incredible," Dr. Silver said. "He did all this in the past
year."

. . .

On Feb. 23,1997, the world learned that Dr. Ian Wilmut of the Roslin Institute
and Dr. Keith Campbell of PPL Therapeutics in Roslin, Scotland, had created
Dolly by cloning from an udder cell of a 6-year-old ewe.

Soon, critics emerged, led by Dr. Norton D. Zinder, a microbiologist at
Rockefeller University in New York. Dr. Zinder questioned Dr. Wilmut's genetic
evidence that Dolly was a clone. Moreover, he pointed out, it took 400 tries
to produce Dolly and no other adult had been cloned. One success out of 400
tries is "an anecdote, not a result," Dr. Zinder said.

Dr. Wilmut responded to Dr. Zinder in two papers also published in today's
issue of Nature. Dr. Wilmut's group and an independent group that included the
inventor of DNA fingerprinting, Dr. Alec J. Jeffries of the University of
Leicester, compared DNA from the original piece of udder D frozen at the
Hannah Research Institute more than 100 hundred miles from the Roslin
Institute D to the DNA of the udder cells that were frozen in a test tube at
the Roslin Institute and used to create Dolly to the DNA of Dolly. All the DNA
sequences were identical, the researchers reported.

But Dr. Zinder, in a telephone interview, said he still was not convinced. The
investigators, he said, did not prove that the piece of udder that they had
stored at the Hannah Research Institute really was the source of the test tube
of cells used to create Dolly.

"They didn't keep proper records," Dr. Zinder said. "We don't know what that
chunk of tissue was."

Dr. Zinder also questioned Dr. Yanagimachi's work. "I'm no mouse expert, but
it looks to me like it's very shaky," he said.

"I am convinced," said Dr. John J. Eppig, an expert in mouse embryo
development at the Jackson Laboratory in Bar Harbor, Maine.

Dr. Richard Schultz, an expert in early mouse embryo development at the
University of Pennsylvania, offered this assessment: "The significance of this
one is that it's incontrovertible. A superb experiment."

. . .


Dr. Yanagimachi and his colleagues verified with genetic tests that their mice
were indeed clones. Also, in one experiment, they used coffee colored mice for
the cumulus cells, black mice for the eggs, and white albino mice as surrogate
mothers. As predicted, the clones were coffee colored.

Despite the enthusiastic reception for the results of Dr. Yanagimachi's
experiment among reproductive biologists, he had great difficulty publishing
his paper. On Oct. 5, after cloning the first four mice, he submitted a paper
to the journal Science, which rejected it without peer review, telling him it
was "not of general interest," he said. Diane Dondershine, a spokeswoman for
Science, said the journal's policy is not to comment on papers that were
submitted.

Dr. Yanagimachi then he sent his paper to Nature, which forwarded it to two
reviewers, one of whom asked repeatedly for additional proof. In March, the
journal sent the paper to two more reviewers before finally accepting it last
month, Dr. Yanagimachi said.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 08:11:43 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11461;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:04:39 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:04:39 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <00d801bdb96e$34463780$c98f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: K.R. Komarek Inc (http://www.komarek.com/index.htm)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:52:25 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002A_01BDB93B.E0FFA020"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"f5qov.0._o2.6S9lr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20883
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BDB93B.E0FFA020
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Try this one,John. Beats Rabbit Pellets.  :-)

http://www.komarek.com/index.htm

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BDB93B.E0FFA020
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="K.R. Komarek Inc.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="K.R. Komarek Inc.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.komarek.com/index.htm
Modified=C01D5BFE6DB9BD011A

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BDB93B.E0FFA020--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 09:42:20 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27372;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:33:40 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:33:40 -0700 (PDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:20:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Falaco solitons: no BANG vortices
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980727061332.008a4a50 mail.eden.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980727083727.20384A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"Uq5821.0.Xh6.SlAlr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20884
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Scott Little wrote:

> At 12:08 AM 7/27/98 -0700, William Beaty wrote:
> >  http://www22.pair.com/csdc/car/carfre3.htm
> 
> Very interesting, Bill!  Have you tried this yet:
> 
> >The 1-dimensional defect, or string, is made visible by injecting dye
> drops >near a dimple vertex. The dye drop executes helical transverse wave
> motion
> >about the thread which acts as a guiding center.

Just tried it, and found that my 'solitons' are turbulent.  The blue food
coloring simply made a whirling cloud which stayed at one end of the
vortex (but WAS carried along as it travelled).  I'll have to practice
until I can make them laminar, like rings of incense smoke.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 09:52:48 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00409;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:48:14 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:48:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226
Message-Id: <v03020900b1e255f31d15 [128.183.200.195]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:40:30 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: DG Torr - unknown champion of the aether
Resent-Message-ID: <"w0z-1.0.I6.9zAlr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20885
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

  I thought I might mention a bit about the exploits of Doug Torr.  Doug is
best known in the fringe physics field for getting Ningh Li started on her
superconducting disk levitation.  Some early papers are:

LI N, TORR DG
       EFFECTS OF A GRAVITOMAGNETIC FIELD ON PURE SUPERCONDUCTORS
       PHYS REV D 43: (2) 457-459 JAN 15 1991

LI N, TORR DG
       GRAVITATIONAL EFFECTS ON THE MAGNETIC ATTENUATION OF SUPERCONDUCTORS
       PHYS REV B 46: (9) 5489-5495 SEP 1 1992

TORR DG, LI N
       GRAVITOELECTRIC-ELECTRIC COUPLING VIA SUPERCONDUCTIVITY
       FOUND PHYS LETT 6: (4) 371-383 AUG 1993

However, unknown to the fringe physics community, Doug is a big advocate of
the aether.  He has done some good experiments that showed an aether effect
but chose not to publish his results.  I know about the experiments from
private communications.  The experiments were done with laser light sent
along a segment of underground optical fiber cable about a kilometer in
length.  The procedure was related to the suggestion appearing in:

GAGNON DR, TORR DG, KOLEN PT, et al.
       GUIDED-WAVE MEASUREMENT OF THE ONE-WAY SPEED OF LIGHT
       PHYS REV A 38: (4) 1767-1772 AUG 15 1988

He is still interested in revising the theory of relativity as indicated in:

 Vargas JG, Torr DG
       The construction of teleparallel Finsler connections and the
emergence of an alternative concept of metric compatibility
       FOUND PHYS 27: (6) 825-843 JUN 1997

Vargas JG, Torr DG
       The emergence of a Kaluza-Klein microgeometry from the invariants of
optimally Euclidean Lorentzian spaces
       FOUND PHYS 27: (4) 533-558 APR 1997

Perhaps he is trying to find a revised theory of relativity that is
consistent with his experimental results while refusing to publish those
results because he is fearful that there may be some ridicule resulting if
he published.  Too bad I think.  I would say that all his theory fringe
work, including his work with Li, is invalid.  The most important and valid
thing he did was his experimental work and that he kept secret.

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 10:07:04 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26275;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:03:33 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:03:33 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980727130844.00c5e280 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:08:44 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: home page (http://www.ogsi.com/)
Cc: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
In-Reply-To: <007f01bdb953$f1a9c0a0$c98f85ce default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"CUgCL1.0.RQ6.aBBlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20886
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 05:44 AM 7/27/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>Can you live with 95% purity O2 to get around 
>NOx when burning H2, Robert?    :-)    FJS
 
    Depends on the impurities.  If it is all CO2, H2O, and inert gases,
fine.  But mix in a little nitrogen, and you will get HCN (hydrogen
cyanide).  Get the CO and CO2, and hydrocarbons out, and you can stand some
nitrogen.

    I get very worried by cyanide when burning things at high temperature.
I was once producing several grams a week running a plasma arc in air.
(The cyanide was washed from the chamber by  running the exhaust through a
series of NaOH solution sprays.)  The CN triple bond is very hard to break,
so beyond a certain temperature, almost all the carbon ends up as cyanide
radicals.

    We finally "fixed" the problem by scrubbing the CO2 out of the inlet
air.  That way we didn't have anywhere near as much sodium cyanide to
dispose of.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 10:32:08 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA31894;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:26:58 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:26:58 -0700
Message-ID: <001d01bdb983$3175cce0$b78f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: home page (http://www.ogsi.com/)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:22:08 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"yTUT83.0.Ao7.XXBlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20888
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Robert I. Eachus <eachus mitre.org>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: Vortex-L <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Monday, July 27, 1998 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: home page (http://www.ogsi.com/)

Robert I. Eachus wrote:


>At 05:44 AM 7/27/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>>Can you live with 95% purity O2 to get around
>>NOx when burning H2, Robert?    :-)    FJS
>
>    Depends on the impurities.  If it is all CO2, H2O, and inert gases,
>fine.  But mix in a little nitrogen, and you will get HCN (hydrogen
>cyanide).  Get the CO and CO2, and hydrocarbons out, and you can stand some
>nitrogen.
>
>    I get very worried by cyanide when burning things at high temperature.
>I was once producing several grams a week running a plasma arc in air.
>(The cyanide was washed from the chamber by  running the exhaust through a
>series of NaOH solution sprays.)  The CN triple bond is very hard to break,
>so beyond a certain temperature, almost all the carbon ends up as cyanide
>radicals.
>
>    We finally "fixed" the problem by scrubbing the CO2 out of the inlet
>air.  That way we didn't have anywhere near as much sodium cyanide to
>dispose of.

Interesting point,Robert. The Comets that carry the endothermic Carbides,
Nitrides,and Cyanides must be residues from Stellar-Supernova activity that
may only react with the ice when it melts forming acetylene, or ammonia and
HCN as the Comet gets near the Sun?

Regards,   Frederick
>
>                                        Robert I. Eachus
>
>with Standard_Disclaimer;
>use  Standard_Disclaimer;
>function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 10:35:38 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08318;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:29:59 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:29:59 -0700 (PDT)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35BC9CD1.F3EE47E1 css.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:29:21 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: K.R. Komarek Inc (http://www.komarek.com/index.htm)
References: <00d801bdb96e$34463780$c98f85ce default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"MwAuZ1.0.e12.BaBlr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20887
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frederick J Sparber wrote:
> Try this one,John. Beats Rabbit Pellets.  :-)
> http://www.komarek.com/index.htm

Thanks!  


-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
         Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
         Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 10:41:00 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01146;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:34:08 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:34:08 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980727133926.00bf24a0 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:39:26 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: is PVC safe for drinking water (OFF TOPIC)
In-Reply-To: <35B90402.8BA200C5 css.mot.com>
References: <Pine.A41.3.96.980724064619.23358F-100000 acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"lhacI1.0.pH.FeBlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20889
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 05:00 PM 7/24/98 -0500, John Steck wrote:
>I wouldn't use it for water feed lines, but has become a popular low cost
>building material for waste lines.  Not sure if typical water filters can
>remove dioxin or furan compounds with activated charcoal or not.  I will have
>to default that answer to one of the resident beaker jockeys....
 
     PVC itself is very inert.  But if not fully polymerized, you can be
exposed to vinyl cloride trapped in the matrix.

 One of those tricks of the trade, if you are thinking of using PVC for
water pipes, is to let them sit in the sun for a few days.  UV light can be
used to trigger the polymerization, so sitting in the sun can reduce the
remnant VC by a factor of ten.  (Number of days depending, of course, on
the thickness and opacity of the pipe.)  The process also causes
cross-linking, which strengthens the PVC and makes it more brittle.  We
took some VC to the ultimate by using high-intensity UV to do all the
polymerization.  Eight minutes, and the brittleness no longer mattered.  We
drove a truck onto an eight foot length, 3 inches in diameter and 3/16"
thick, supported a 1/2" off the pavement at each end. It didn't sag more
than an eighth of an inch in the middle, even after driving the truck over
dozens of times.  The president of the company took a maul to it in a demo,
and almost hit someone when the maul bounced off.  No detectable scratches.

    Incidently, the intended technology was to spray the insides of
underground gasoline storage tanks, lower a light source in, and polymerize
the plastic in place.  The Federal government said no way, we want those
rusting tanks replaced, not relined.  Sigh!

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 11:02:04 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05833;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:47:38 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:47:38 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35BCBD4E.6AEF5E9E css.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:47:58 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: DG Torr - unknown champion of the aether
References: <v03020900b1e255f31d15 [128.183.200.195]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"uLu-e.0.3R1.vqBlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20890
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Larry Wharton wrote:
> Perhaps he is trying to find a revised theory of relativity that is
> consistent with his experimental results while refusing to publish those
> results because he is fearful that there may be some ridicule resulting if
> he published.  Too bad I think.  I would say that all his theory fringe
> work, including his work with Li, is invalid.  The most important and valid
> thing he did was his experimental work and that he kept secret.

Larry-

Ever consider inviting him to join Vortex?  Although we have our fair share of
skeptics, I doubt he would be met with the ridicule typical of other lists. 
Might be a good oportunity for him to work out any details (or arguments) that
may not be obvious prior to going completely public.  If he doesn't have the
time, see if he would let you post some of his parameters and findings.

Just a thought.  Not even close to being an expert, but I would be interested
in hearing more.  8^)



-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
         Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
         Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 11:20:44 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18737;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:16:04 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:16:04 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <001301bdb981$3c4de6e0$b78f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: SURPLUS RECORD USED MACHINERY, MACHINE TOOL & USED EQUIPMENT DIRECTORY (http://
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:08:40 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BDB94E.E99CD8C0"
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"fDELQ.0.Xa4.WFClr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20891
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BDB94E.E99CD8C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Used Briquetting Machines,and about anything else like 1000 megawatt
powerplants.  :-)

http://www.surplusrecord.com/


------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BDB94E.E99CD8C0
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="SURPLUS RECORD USED MACHINERY, MACHINE TOOL & USED EQUIPMENT DIRECTORY.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="SURPLUS RECORD USED MACHINERY, MACHINE TOOL & USED EQUIPMENT DIRECTORY.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.surplusrecord.com/
Modified=A0ED5B0E80B9BD01ED

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BDB94E.E99CD8C0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 13:48:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA10610;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:45:09 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:45:09 -0700
Message-ID: <19980727182352.12757.rocketmail send1d.yahoomail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:23:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: is PVC safe for drinking water (OFF TOPIC)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"Eeu52.0.Tb2.KRElr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20892
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

---"Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org> wrote:


> We
> took some VC to the ultimate by using high-intensity UV to do all the
> polymerization.  Eight minutes, and the brittleness no longer
mattered.  We
> drove a truck onto an eight foot length, 3 inches in diameter and
3/16"
> thick, supported a 1/2" off the pavement at each end. It didn't sag
more
> than an eighth of an inch in the middle, even after driving the
truck over
> dozens of times.  The president of the company took a maul to it in
a demo,
> and almost hit someone when the maul bounced off.  No detectable
scratches.

Wow!  I have had a stupid little idea surfacing in my brain every few
years.  It involves PVC and bicycle frames.  Normally this just won't
work....What you described could make this possble! Any idea how long
the UV radiated PVC will retain that strength?!   How intense does the
UV need to be?  Something us garage based folks could attempt?  Is the
process something you can share?

==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 13:59:34 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23429;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:57:49 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:57:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Infinite Energy
Message-Id: <19980727202904.KZQD28282 Default>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:29:04 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"eSLim1.0._j5.BdElr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20893
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Thanks, Mitchell, we appreciate the support.  

The bridge rectifier shown on p. 11 IS incorrect and would result in a very
hot bridge rectifer for a short time, unless a fuse blows.  The fuse should
have been shown (but was included in the autotransformer).  I shall get the
correct circuit posted to out website.



>   Gene Mallove has tirelessly put out a superb 
>information-rich issue of "Infinite Energy" (v4, number 20).
>
>  IMO, one of his best yet, even the cover is good.
>
>Those interested in cold fusion should check it out.
>
>        Mitchell Swartz
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 14:56:32 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27653;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:52:37 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:52:37 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35BCF6BD.EC9D222F css.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:53:01 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: is PVC safe for drinking water (OFF TOPIC)
References: <19980727182352.12757.rocketmail send1d.yahoomail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"AnX-W1.0.vl6.aQFlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20894
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Anton Rager wrote:

> Wow!  I have had a stupid little idea surfacing in my brain every few
> years.  It involves PVC and bicycle frames.  Normally this just won't
> work....What you described could make this possble! Any idea how long
> the UV radiated PVC will retain that strength?!   How intense does the
> UV need to be?  Something us garage based folks could attempt?  Is the
> process something you can share?

Anton-

The problem is continued exposure to UV degrades the mechanical properties. 
Robert's application is ideal because once he gets the PVC fully crosslinked he
sticks it "where the sun don't shine". (ha ha ha, I couldn't resist)  Your
application would not have that luxury.

Before you shout "paint it!", the bad news is PVC does not accept a finish very
well.  It can be painted, but anything that you expect to hold up is difficult
& nasty.  The cost effectiveness goes right out the window real quick. 
Co-extruding or co-molding a skin of a sacrificial or shielding plastic on the
outside is an option, but the second material must be compatible, and if you
get to this step, there are many better plastics that wouldn't be such a pain
in the *ss to process.  You could rubberize the assembled frame.... but the
thing would weigh a ton!

My wife thinks I have an obsession with building things with the stuff, so I
share your zeal.  Even fully crosslinked, I don't think your typical wall
thicknesses pipe would withstand the dynamic loading and punishment a bike
frame takes (interesting non-linear FEA analysis for any takers...)  I would be
very interested to hear otherwise!


-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
         Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
         Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 15:20:16 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA08454;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:10:32 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:10:32 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980727180704.00bf0d80 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:07:04 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: is PVC safe for drinking water (OFF TOPIC)
In-Reply-To: <19980727182352.12757.rocketmail send1d.yahoomail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"w8mpX.0._32.LhFlr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20895
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:23 AM 7/27/98 -0700, Anton Rager wrote:
>Wow!  I have had a stupid little idea surfacing in my brain every few
>years.  It involves PVC and bicycle frames.  Normally this just won't
>work....What you described could make this possble! Any idea how long
>the UV radiated PVC will retain that strength?!   How intense does the
>UV need to be?  Something us garage based folks could attempt?  Is the
>process something you can share?

    Hmmmm....  Let's try answers, and see if any fit.

    1) Garden variety plexiglass kits, glass for the substrate, resin and
no plasticizer is all that you need--plus a healthy dose of UV.  I'd have
to check on the best resins for light curing, but that is probably on-line
by now.  (These experiments were years ago.)

    The process incidently, is currently used by dentists to do
non-metallic fillings and cement caps in place.

    2) The brighter the light, the more cross-linking.  More total light
means more complete polymerization.  You can work with sunlight in a garage
setting. The "right" intensity is about noon summer sun in Dallas or
Atlanta.  You can of course use a reflector to up what you have, and you'll
want to use one anyway to get all sides covered.

    The alternative is to buy a dedicated light source.  Tanning booths are
pretty close to perfect--we were aiming for more, because we wanted to
obtain good cross-linking all the way through a think layer.

    3) If you really want the ultimate in strength go for carbon-carbon.
Otherwise you can get pretty close with the following. Make your mandrell
out of cotton cloth--be sure to choose one that hasn't been calendared or
slashed.  Unbleached muslin is pretty good.

    Cook until black in a reducing oven.  CO atmosphere supposedly works
best, but CO2 is okay...

    Spray with resin while still hot and in reducing atmosphere.

    Now hit it with the light.

    This is not my formula, and I thought it was pretty tough to do right.
But done right, you get the carbon fibers chemically linked into the resin
matrix, and the whole is one big molecule.  This is much stronger than
steel by volume, and much lighter.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 18:42:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16248;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:37:29 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:37:29 -0700
Message-ID: <35BE365F.16E140D5 ihug.co.nz>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:36:47 -0700
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: DG Torr - unknown champion of the aether
References: <v03020900b1e255f31d15 [128.183.200.195]> <35BCBD4E.6AEF5E9E@css.mot.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Gn2Jx3.0.jz3.OjIlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20896
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Recently it has seemed more of a skeptic list, I am quite disappointed at the
skeptical view that have become the clear majority.


John Berry

John Steck wrote:

> Although we have our fair share of skeptics.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 19:02:45 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24792;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:58:57 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:58:57 -0700
From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:32:25 -0700
Message-ID: <yam7512.1289.18432688 mail.earthlink.net>
X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck
Organization: ROSHI Corporation
Subject: [Off Topic] Card Magic! (fwd)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"UXjDw.0.I36.W1Jlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20897
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


http://www.sjc.cc.nm.us/cjta/bait/index.htm

No reply necessary. I understand the magic ;)

ChuckD....

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 19:42:43 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06961;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:40:26 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:40:26 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199807280228.WAA12684 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Infinite Energy
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 22:37:16 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"TnVxO.0.gi1.NeJlr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20898
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>
>   Gene Mallove has tirelessly put out a superb 
>information-rich issue of "Infinite Energy" (v4, number 20).
>
>  IMO, one of his best yet, even the cover is good.
>
>Those interested in cold fusion should check it out.
>
>        Mitchell Swartz

Thanks, Mitch! Your appreciation is very appreciated.

Best, Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 27 22:42:04 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16485;
	Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:39:43 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:39:43 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:36:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Faster than Light update
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980727223246.24425A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"mpPgY1.0.T14.RGMlr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20899
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

 
 To : vortex
 
 From: Jim Ostrowski
 
  As far as my discussing anything further on the above topic goes,
 as  I  mentioned there is a lot of material but I really wonder if
 it's worth my time to post any of it here due to a general lack of
 interest, outside of a few private emails. I was really hoping for
 some commentary on the ideas expressed in the  earlier  post,  but
 I'm  not  going to carry on a monolog here . Y'all apparently have
 better things to do, and that's just fine with me because  I  know
 where  I'm  going  with this ,and if anyone really wants to follow
 along their gonna have to contribute something in terms  of  ideas
 or at least questions.
 
  I got a complaint earlier that this forum was about sharing ideas
 and that I was being sort of secretive I guess, so this is all  in
 respone  to  that  notion  anyway.  You have my reference document
 (Wright's article) plus plenty of other  things  that  might  help
 anyone interested to get up to speed as it were.
 
  So  unless  I get at least some good questions this all I have to
 throw in the stew for now.
 
 See ya,
 
 Jim O.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 28 05:34:09 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19866;
	Tue, 28 Jul 1998 05:30:58 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 05:30:58 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35BDC497.DBC4E008 css.mot.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 07:31:19 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Discussion Group - Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Lost SOHO spacecraft found spinning in space
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"1UxzF3.0.Ks4.2ISlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20900
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

05:55 PM ET 07/27/98
            WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The lost SOHO spacecraft, which
disappeared while observing the sun, has been found spinning
slowly and helplessly in space, astronomers said
Monday.
            It has not spun far off course, and it might be possible to
get it back in working order, U.S. and European space
researchers said.
            Ground controllers said last month they had lost contact
with the Solar and Heliospheric Observatory (SOHO). The
satellite, a  joint project of the European Space Agency (ESA)
and the U.S. National Aeronautics and Space Administration
(NASA), observes the sun from 900,000 miles out in space.
            During its time in space, SOHO has seen two comets plunging
into the sun, vast solar tornadoes, rivers of plasma beneath the
sun's surface and a magnetic ``carpet'' on the surface.
           It has also helped scientists to predict several solar storms
-- streams of electromagnetic energy -- that have disrupted
satellites and electrical power stations on Earth.
            In a joint statement, NASA and ESA said researchers at the
U.S. National Astronomy and Ionosphere Center (NAIC) in Puerto
Rico used their radio telescope to send a radio signal out
toward where SOHO was last seen.
            The signal bounced off the spacecraft and NASA was able to
track it.
            They hope they can regain control of SOHO so it can continue
its mission to watch sunspot activity, which is associated with
solar storms, until 2003.


-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
         Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
         Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 28 09:21:39 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA24425;
	Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:15:33 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:15:33 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980728122035.00c26e20 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:20:35 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: is PVC safe for drinking water (OFF TOPIC)
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <35BCF6BD.EC9D222F css.mot.com>
References: <19980727182352.12757.rocketmail send1d.yahoomail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"t7FHO1.0.Zz5.aaVlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20901
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 04:53 PM 7/27/98 -0500, John Steck wrote:

>Before you shout "paint it!", the bad news is PVC does not accept a finish
>very well.  It can be painted, but anything that you expect to hold up is
>difficult & nasty.  The cost effectiveness goes right out the window real
>quick.  Co-extruding or co-molding a skin of a sacrificial or shielding
>plastic on the outside is an option, but the second material must be
>compatible, and if you get to this step, there are many better plastics
that >wouldn't be such a pain in the *ss to process.  You could rubberize
the >assembled frame.... but the thing would weigh a ton!

    You can add carbon black or aluminium powder to the mix to slow the
degradation, but I think in a bicycle, the weathering wouldn't be too much
of a problem.  Are you aiming for a 5 year life, or fifty?

    The ultimate solution for exposed PVC piping is to put a sleeve on it.
I've used thermoshrink plastic designed for cabling, foam, and aluminum
foil. On different pipes of course.  If you were really concerned with
weight, you could sputter on some metal, aluminum by choice.  But that gets
into the difficult to do in the garage category.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 28 09:49:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03409;
	Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:44:47 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:44:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tstolper aol.com
Message-ID: <6af338cc.35bdfdf7 aol.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:36:06 EDT
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Greetings and BANG!
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 2.5.1 for Mac
Resent-Message-ID: <"xte--3.0.6r.z_Vlr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20902
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Vince,

Glad to hear you're still alive.  How are things going with your H & K
experiment?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 28 10:17:36 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02738;
	Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:06:48 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:06:48 -0700
Message-ID: <19980728164550.24700.rocketmail send1e.yahoomail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:45:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: is PVC safe for drinking water (OFF TOPIC)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"xgVc93.0.gg.eKWlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20903
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


I'm lucky if I get a 5 year life cycle with a steel/Alu MTB/BMX bike
frame.  Even road frames tend to get a bit noodle-like after 5-6 years
of competition.  If it's cheap, light, durable, and easy to build....I
would consider a 1-2 year racing life acceptable.

Thanks for the coating ideas. Sounds like it might be just fine UV
treated, but uncoated.  Will try this out once I get moved into my new
place.  I can't believe I'm even considering building a PVC frame......



---"Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org> wrote:
>
> At 04:53 PM 7/27/98 -0500, John Steck wrote:
>
>     You can add carbon black or aluminium powder to the mix to slow
the
> degradation, but I think in a bicycle, the weathering wouldn't be
too much
> of a problem.  Are you aiming for a 5 year life, or fifty?
> 
>     The ultimate solution for exposed PVC piping is to put a sleeve
on it.
> I've used thermoshrink plastic designed for cabling, foam, and
aluminum
> foil. On different pipes of course.  If you were really concerned with
> weight, you could sputter on some metal, aluminum by choice.  But
that gets
> into the difficult to do in the garage category.
> 
>                                         Robert I. Eachus
> 
> with Standard_Disclaimer;
> use  Standard_Disclaimer;
> function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
> 
> 
> 

==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 28 10:57:40 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09456;
	Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:52:01 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:52:01 -0700
Message-ID: <19980728161630.11341.rocketmail send1c.yahoomail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:16:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Pseudo Critical Thinking Link
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"g1bkK2.0.bJ2.0_Wlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20904
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Great link on "pseudo critical thinking" and "pseudo skeptics".  Not
exactly targeting FE, OU, or things vortexian.....but definately
applicable to much of the criticism directed into these camps as well.
 Some valid points.

http://www.remoteviewers.com/critical.html 
  

I really like one of the phrases - "Extraordinary denial requires
extraordinary proof"
==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 28 11:18:17 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19546;
	Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:10:18 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:10:18 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:55:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: I care... Re: Faster than light Update
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980725074819.22366A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980728135450.15903A-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"RBdJD1.0.Jn4.7GXlr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20905
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


	Dear Jim O,

	I would like to know the general idea of the work.. Thank you.


					John	


On Sat, 25 Jul 1998, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> 
> Vortex people interested in the above topic-
> 
> I talked with Leonard Mandel of the University of Rochester Optics lab the
> other day and he agreed to look at our case. If anyone is interested in
> what is going on here I'll be glad to outline the general idea for the
> group. Does anybody care?
> 
> Jim Ostrowski
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 28 12:43:45 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08142;
	Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:40:54 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:40:54 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <003201bdba5d$f29c5b20$f68f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re; Steam-Oxygen Blown Biomass Gasifier
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:28:05 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"CSrYf1.0.8_1.3bYlr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20906
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

FWIW, John,

Briquetted Biomass in a Steam-Oxygen Blown
Gasifier will start to act like the Stack in
the iron ore blast furnace, giving off a gas
stream of CO2, CO, and H2, plus the O2 contaminants, after the initial
pyrolysis
of the "green biomass".

Used household Medical Oxygen Generators that
work on the Pressure Swing Adsorption principle will deliver about 4
liters/minute of 95%+ O2.

The old used units, reconditioned cost about
$300.00, according to a friend "in the business". :-)

The pressure can be boosted using a DRY COMPRESSOR (NO OIL OR GREASE)and
stored in an approved pressure tank.

The DoE used a similar approach for "in situ" gasification of coal, thus
turning coal seams into veritable gas wells that can produce SNG,
Methanol, or Gasoline, at the coal mine.

With this good news, I decided to retire from the Biomass Business.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 28 17:23:38 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07836;
	Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:22:01 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:22:01 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980728195453.00bf3eb0 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:54:53 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: is PVC safe for drinking water (OFF TOPIC)
In-Reply-To: <19980728164550.24700.rocketmail send1e.yahoomail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"cwErO.0.Jw1.diclr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20907
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 09:45 AM 7/28/98 -0700, Anton Rager wrote:
>Thanks for the coating ideas. Sounds like it might be just fine UV
>treated, but uncoated.  Will try this out once I get moved into my new
>place.  I can't believe I'm even considering building a PVC frame......
 
   First, treating existing PVC pipe will not work, and working with vinyl
cloride is definitely a job for protective equipment and plenty of
ventilation.  There are other monomers that are more people friendly,
that's why I suggested checking what the dentists are using.  (Don't
necessarily buy from a dental supplier, since you don't need USP quality.
Just find out what they are using and get a commercial grade.)

   To get you started try: http://www.pcnet.com/~eluv/index.htm and
http://www.polysciences.com

   Second, you want lightweight and rigid.  You are always going to win by
including fibers well bonded into the matrix.  (If nothing else, stress
fractures become wear not catastrophic failures.)  Again, if you are trying
to do this in your garage, best is to put a fiberglass sleeve on a mandrel,
then coat it with monomer and cure it.  (Again tricks, if you use a metal
mandrel make it hollow, and form the polymer with it warm, then run chilled
water through to break the pipe free.  (Can you tell that I made a few test
samples?) 
You can then put additional layers on if you want or need to.  Remember
that one advantage of making things this way is that you can add strength
where needed, probably by reinforcing the ends.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 28 19:25:17 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01223;
	Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:20:53 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:20:53 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <004801bdba95$d1481ee0$f68f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: The Auto-Ionization of Water, Free Energy, Sonoluminescence & Griggs.
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:05:45 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"przqj2.0.wI.1Selr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20908
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

The highest purity water auto-ionizes:

   H2O   <--->  H+ +  OH-

-57 Kcal + E =  0    -37 Kcal

           E = 57 Kcal - 37 Kcal

           E =  20 Kcal (endothermic)

Where is that energy coming from for the
auto-ionization of H2O?   :-)

OTOH:

H+ + OH-        --->  H  +  OH

0  -37 Kcal + E  =    0  + 8 Kcal

              E = 37 Kcal + 8 Kcal

              E =  45 Kcal   (endothermic)

Then for cavitation/sonoluminescence, Griggs o/u:

H + OH    --->    H2O

0+ 8 Kcal + E =  -57 Kcal

            E = -57 Kcal - 8 Kcal

            E = -65 Kcal (exothermic)

Without this little quirk, Photosynthesis  probably wouldn't occur, ie., CO2
+ H2O yields Carbonic Acid H2CO3 <--> H+ + HCO3- or 2 H+ +
CO3= in water solution ONLY.

Strange, Huh?   :-)

Regards,   Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 28 22:26:09 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28550;
	Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:21:56 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:21:56 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <01BDBA83.7D499BA0.stk sunherald.infi.net>
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: "'Jim Ostrowski'" <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
Cc: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Faster than Light update
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:57:32 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"k1Xpv2.0.vz6.l5hlr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20909
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



-----Original Message-----
From:	Jim Ostrowski [SMTP:jimostr victor1.mscomm.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, July 28, 1998 12:36 AM
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	Re: Faster than Light update


 > As far as my discussing anything further on the above topic goes,
> as  I  mentioned there is a lot of material but I really wonder if
> it's worth my time to post any of it here due to a general lack of
> interest, outside of a few private emails.

I'm interested. I don't usually express my views since the time I talked 
about absolute reference frames, as I recieved hate mail when I did. But, 
at the risk of losing what credibility I have, I will add to this a few 
thoughts:

An absolute frame of reference (ether; or whatever) will have to be 
reintroduced. This due to the fact that there are real superluminal effects 
that have been repeatedly observed. (EPR effect, and associated violation 
of Bell's inequalities; Chaio's superluminal quantum tunneling of photons, 
Gunter Nimtz's group velocity superluminal microwave experiments, quantum 
entanglement (not the reaction of the particles, just the information 
transfer from particle to particle). These superluminal effects, according 
to special relativity, will violate causality. There is no evidence that 
they violate causality, which would be nonsensical anyways, but much 
evidence that they travel at superluminal velocity. The only (known) thing 
that would allow FTL travel/communication is an absolute reference frame.

If you know of more information on this subject, please share it. I assure 
you, I am interested.

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 02:06:20 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA27803;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:03:39 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:03:39 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <005501bdbace$16099d00$f68f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Surprise Oil Discovery in Wake Of Turkish Quake
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:51:18 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003C_01BDBA9B.C2F3D9A0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"Q7jQ7.0.Lo6.fLklr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20910
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BDBA9B.C2F3D9A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Quaker State, no Doubt?

http://customnews.cnn.com/cnews/pna.show_story?p_art_id=2784057&p_section_na
me=Sci-Tech

------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BDBA9B.C2F3D9A0
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="CNN Custom News - Sci-Tech.url"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="CNN Custom News - Sci-Tech.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=3Dhttp://customnews.cnn.com/cnews/pna.show_story?p_art_id=3D2784057&p=
_section_name=3DSci-Tech
Modified=3D200A559DCDBABD0161

------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BDBA9B.C2F3D9A0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 02:35:45 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA00281;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:34:50 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:34:50 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <000901bdbad2$71d93240$5f8f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Surprise Oil Discovery in Wake Of Turkish Quake
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 03:21:12 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"HFFnH2.0.J4.uoklr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20911
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

I am saddened that the CNN article was vague on the fact that there were
were 140 people killed in that 6.3 Earthquake.

No insensitivity on the tragedy was intended, on my part.

With apologies,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 03:27:24 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA02436;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 03:24:50 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 03:24:50 -0700 (PDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: sh.diac.com: ekwall2 owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 04:12:57 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
To: Vortex-L <vortex-l eskimo.com>
cc: Freenrg-l eskimo.com
Subject: Harmonics of Light?
In-Reply-To: <000901bdbad2$71d93240$5f8f85ce default>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980729035813.19838A-100000 sh.diac.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"utlyK1.0.vb.iXllr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20912
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex
    &/or Freenrg (sorry for the cross-posting) I'll step aside for the 
    brainiacs.

REF: Harmonics of the speed of light?  ARE THEY THERE?

 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, -C- , 1st Harmonic of light = ?, 2nd = ? 3rd etc..
....,...,..,.,-C-,_,__,___,____,*,*,**,***,****,!  etc..etc.........

Has this been discussed yet?  Is there a good URL you could point me to?

-=se=-
steve (just having an aetheric thought:) ekwall
excuse me, /delete/ if this is ~out of bounds~ 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 05:30:13 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA11139;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 05:27:31 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 05:27:31 -0700 (PDT)
Sender: jack pop.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <35BECAAB.E15125A mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:09:31 +0000
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Faster than Light update
References: <01BDBA83.7D499BA0.stk sunherald.infi.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x"
Resent-Message-ID: <"y03-a2.0.zj2.lKnlr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20913
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


>From POPmail Wed Jul 29 06:05:27 1998
Return-Path: <vortex-l-request eskimo.com>
Received: from mx2.eskimo.com (smartlst mx2.eskimo.com [204.122.16.49])
	by pop.centuryinter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA05313
	for <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:30:44 -0500 (CDT)
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28551;
	Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:21:55 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:21:55 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <01BDBA83.7D499BA0.stk sunherald.infi.net>
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: "'Jim Ostrowski'" <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
Cc: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Faster than Light update
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:57:32 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"k1Xpv2.0.vz6.l5hlr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20909
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
X-UIDL: 4c06ae0cd722d4e65c6ad3ab0fba225f



-----Original Message-----
From:	Jim Ostrowski [SMTP:jimostr victor1.mscomm.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, July 28, 1998 12:36 AM
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	Re: Faster than Light update

As far as my discussing anything further on the
above topic goes, as  I  mentioned there is a
lot of material but I really wonder if it's
worth my time to post any of it here due to a
general lack of interest, outside of a few private emails.

Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

I'm interested. ...

An absolute frame of reference (ether; or whatever)
will have to be reintroduced. ...

The only (known) thing that would allow FTL
travel/communication is an absolute reference frame.

If you know of more information on this subject,
please share it. I assure you, I am interested.

Kyle R. Mcallister

Hi Kyle and Jim,

I'm also very interested.  Although my studies of gravity
have been low key since before last Christmas because
of other commitments, more and more, Newton's equations
seem to me the gold standard of design equations in this
area; and Newton makes no provision for gravity limited by c.
Furthermore, the whole problem of red shift might not seem
so intractable to me if I could think about it within a
framework of "distant action."  Please Jim, present your
material to the list.

Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 06:42:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA23475;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 06:38:07 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 06:38:07 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 06:34:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: Vortex-L <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Harmonics of Light?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980729035813.19838A-100000 sh.diac.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980729061101.20264A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"6C5zi.0.ek5.xMolr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20914
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Steve Ekwall wrote:

> To: Vortex
>     &/or Freenrg (sorry for the cross-posting) I'll step aside for the 
>     brainiacs.
> 
> REF: Harmonics of the speed of light?  ARE THEY THERE?

I don't know if there is any such thing as a harmonic of a velocity , or
if anything strange happens if you go twice as fast etc. The thing I am
concerned about is Einstein's Second Postulate - That the speed of light
is a constant , equal to c . (300 km/sec). 

An experiment has been performed which would tend to show that there is
some element to the mechanism of light propagation that acts at the
emitter dependent upon conditions at the absorber. If this statement were
shown to be true , AND if Einstein's Second postulate were also true, then
it would seem  that  you would then have backwards in time signalling and
therefore a violation of causality. But - here's the thing , if somehow
Einstein's second postulate was wrong , or needed to be enhanced or
modified in some way , then all bets are off about violations of causality
because even if the speed of this signalling were a million times faster
than c you would still have the transmit event occuring before the recieve
event and therefore no violation. 

But you will hear over, over and over about "paradoxes" that are supposed
to come up if one exceeds this speed and this is because everyone assumes 
that the second postulate is correct as stated without any modifications
whatsoever. The experiment shows that there is room for doubt. I have the
oscilloscope pictures.

Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 07:54:10 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01455;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:50:16 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:50:16 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980729104724.00c4a100 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:47:24 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: RE: Faster than Light update
In-Reply-To: <01BDBA83.7D499BA0.stk sunherald.infi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"f6bll1.0.YM.XQplr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20915
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:57 PM 7/28/98 -0500, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
>An absolute frame of reference (ether; or whatever) will have to be 
>reintroduced. This due to the fact that there are real superluminal effects 
>that have been repeatedly observed. (EPR effect, and associated violation 
>of Bell's inequalities; Chaio's superluminal quantum tunneling of photons, 
>Gunter Nimtz's group velocity superluminal microwave experiments, quantum 
>entanglement (not the reaction of the particles, just the information 
>transfer from particle to particle). These superluminal effects, according 
>to special relativity, will violate causality. There is no evidence that 
>they violate causality, which would be nonsensical anyways, but much 
>evidence that they travel at superluminal velocity. The only (known) thing 
>that would allow FTL travel/communication is an absolute reference frame.

     I wouldn't say that causality violation is nonsense, but Enrico
Fermi's question applies:  "Where are they?"  (Fermi originally asked it
about extraterrestrial races, but with time travel possible, you have to
ask about visits from humans in the future.)

     So I, like you, believe we have to replace relativity with something
that looks the same to elementary particles, but very different to larger
systems.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 09:08:14 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18214;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:03:10 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:03:10 -0700
Message-Id: <35BF46AE.F26E2936 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:58:38 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Body's Ability To Emit Light Arouses  New Hopes ...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"i8UoG.0.IS4.zUqlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20916
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Body's Ability To Emit Light Arouses New Hopes & Fears On Radiation From
Mobile Phones

http://www.sciencedaily.com/story.asp?filename=980729064343

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 10:04:44 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05554;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:01:49 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:01:49 -0700
Message-ID: <01BDBAE8.5E3EE0C0.stk sunherald.infi.net>
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Time travel and Fermi's paradox WAS: Re: Faster than light update
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:59:39 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"mNPOX1.0.iM1.yLrlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20917
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



-----Original Message-----
From:	Robert I. Eachus [SMTP:eachus mitre.org]
Sent:	Wednesday, July 29, 1998 9:47 AM
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	RE: Faster than Light update

>     I wouldn't say that causality violation is nonsense, but Enrico
>Fermi's question applies:  "Where are they?"  (Fermi originally asked it
>about extraterrestrial races, but with time travel possible, you have to
>ask about visits from humans in the future.)

Arthur C. Clarke once said that he believed time travel wasn't possible 
since we weren't being visited by tourists from the future. If human nature 
holds, I'd say that makes sense; if time travel really was possible, future 
humans should be here now. As far as extraterrestrials, I don't think they 
would want to have open contact with such a backwards society as ours. 
IMHO, SETI will not hear from the really advanced civilizations. Why use 
radio waves if there is something faster? (and I happen to think there 
probably is, be it an Alcubierre 'warp drive' or something else)

Just some thoughts,
Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 10:35:16 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA13717;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:30:47 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:30:47 -0700
Message-ID: <19980729171036.22772.rocketmail send101.yahoomail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:10:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Body's Ability To Emit Light Arouses  New Hopes ...
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"0KIz92.0.4M3.6nrlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20918
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



Very interesting.  Wonder what wavelengths are emitted?  Saw no
mention of that.  Is this evidence for human bioluminesence?


---Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr> wrote:
>
> Body's Ability To Emit Light Arouses New Hopes & Fears On Radiation
From
> Mobile Phones
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/story.asp?filename=980729064343
> 
> Regards,
> 
> hamdi ucar
> 
> 

==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 12:09:18 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05405;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:52:37 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:52:37 -0700
Message-Id: <35BF6E70.486BB917 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:48:16 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Body's Ability To Emit Light Arouses  New Hopes ...
References: <19980729171036.22772.rocketmail send101.yahoomail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"dhMfX3.0.MK1.qzslr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20919
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Anton Rager wrote:
> 
> Very interesting.  Wonder what wavelengths are emitted?  Saw no
> mention of that.  Is this evidence for human bioluminesence?
> 

The only clue is given on the university release (http://www.warwick.ac.uk/news/pr/97):

"If, by unlucky chance, one of these microwave pollutants matched
 one of the key microwave patterns of the human body the resultant resonance effect may be quite dangerous."

I guess the 1 mm - 10 um range (300GHz-30THz), where to detect EM radiation not easy or inexpensive.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 12:10:06 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09496;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:03:06 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:03:06 -0700
Message-Id: <35BF70EB.47CCD76 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:58:51 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Surprise Oil Discovery in Wake Of Turkish Quake
References: <005501bdbace$16099d00$f68f85ce default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"p0D_J2.0.IK2.g7tlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20920
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Frederick J Sparber wrote:
> 
> Quaker State, no Doubt?
> 
> http://customnews.cnn.com/cnews/pna.show_story?p_art_id=2784057&p_section_na
> me=Sci-Tech
> 

Dear Frederick, the link above is temporarily out of order, could you send me the article or an other link? Is it a new quake? I dont following local news here.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 12:28:47 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15434;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:16:16 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:16:16 -0700
Message-Id: <35BF73FB.B22A9F90 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:11:55 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Something flied very above the sound speed
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"l-MNF1.0.2n3.-Jtlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20921
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi all,

This afternoon I saw briefly a very far object at the sky (far enough if it was an airliner, its wings could not be seen by naked eye) like a body of a airliner. I estimated 4 to 10 Mach, I wonder how can object travel without distubing the air. 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 13:03:39 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19525;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:54:21 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:54:21 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CD5 xch-cpc-02>
From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Something flied very above the sound speed
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:38:51 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"qlfVZ1.0.wm4.gttlr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20922
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hamdi
How do you estimate speed when you don't know how far away it was?
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Hamdi Ucar[SMTP:hamdix verisoft.com.tr]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Wednesday, July 29, 1998 12:11 PM
> To: 	vortex
> Subject: 	Something flied very above the sound speed
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> This afternoon I saw briefly a very far object at the sky (far enough if
> it was an airliner, its wings could not be seen by naked eye) like a body
> of a airliner. I estimated 4 to 10 Mach, I wonder how can object travel
> without distubing the air. 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> hamdi ucar
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 13:55:00 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09972;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:45:25 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:45:25 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980729165047.00c61a30 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:50:47 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Something flied very above the sound speed
In-Reply-To: <35BF73FB.B22A9F90 verisoft.com.tr>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"R35QQ.0.jR2.adulr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20923
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 10:11 PM 7/29/98 +0300, Hamdi Ucar wrote:
>This afternoon I saw briefly a very far object at the sky (far enough if
it was an airliner, its wings could not be seen by naked eye) like a body
of a airliner. I estimated 4 to 10 Mach, I wonder how can object travel
without distubing the air. 

    Did it leave a soap on a rope contrail?

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 14:05:09 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29403;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:52:02 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:52:02 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980729164915.00c62100 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:49:15 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Time travel and Fermi's paradox WAS: Re: Faster than light
  update
Cc: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
In-Reply-To: <01BDBAE8.5E3EE0C0.stk sunherald.infi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"uu8ks1.0.AB7.kjulr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20924
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:59 AM 7/29/98 -0500, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
>Arthur C. Clarke once said that he believed time travel wasn't possible 
>since we weren't being visited by tourists from the future. If human nature 
>holds, I'd say that makes sense; if time travel really was possible, future 
>humans should be here now.

    On the other hand, a lot of the Bible makes sense if human evolution
changes human nature substantially by the time time travel is discovered.
(And on the other hand, a lot of Greek mythology makes sense if it doesn't. ;-)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 14:03:11 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11704;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:58:03 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:58:03 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980729155954.00cd7504 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:59:54 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Something flied very above the sound speed
In-Reply-To: <35BF73FB.B22A9F90 verisoft.com.tr>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"zck331.0.ls2.Rpulr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20925
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: A

At 22:11 7/29/98 +0300, Hamdi Ucar wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>This afternoon I saw briefly a very far object at the sky (far enough if
it was an airliner, its wings could not be seen by naked eye) like a body
of a airliner. I estimated 4 to 10 Mach, I wonder how can object travel
without distubing the air. 

You did not hear a sonic boom?  Perhaps the craft was simply too far away.
Does anybody know if it is possible to see a supersonic craft with the
naked eye and not be able to hear a sonic boom from it?

Scott

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 14:15:20 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14980;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:09:49 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:09:49 -0700
From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: "Robert I. Eachus" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:10:18 -0700
Message-ID: <yam7514.902.18426840 mail.earthlink.net>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980729164915.00c62100 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck
Organization: ROSHI Corporation
Subject: Re: Time travel and Fermi's paradox WAS: Re: Faster than light  update
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"fKvhj2.0.kf3.S-ulr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20926
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 29-Jul-98, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
>At 11:59 AM 7/29/98 -0500, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
>>Arthur C. Clarke once said that he believed time travel wasn't possible 
>>since we weren't being visited by tourists from the future. If human nature 
>>holds, I'd say that makes sense; if time travel really was possible, future 
>>humans should be here now.

>    On the other hand, a lot of the Bible makes sense if human evolution
>changes human nature substantially by the time time travel is discovered.
>(And on the other hand, a lot of Greek mythology makes sense if it doesn't.
>;-)


 We're _all_ "time" travelers. We just forgot, how :)
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
 http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 14:16:50 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17116;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:14:44 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:14:44 -0700
Message-ID: <35BF8FA8.F17E7420 darknet.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:10:00 -0400
From: Steve <darklord darknet.net>
Organization: DarkNet Online/Digital Fusion
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Something flied very above the sound speed
References: <3.0.1.32.19980729165047.00c61a30 spectre.mitre.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"hb0ZB.0.IB4.33vlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20927
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>     Did it leave a soap on a rope contrail?

Are you thinking of Aurora? (or was that "donuts on a rope"?)

About 2 years ago I was interested in military spyplanes and stealth
technology, and I did a bit of research on "Aurora" (or whatever it's
actually called..), and specifically on Pulse Detonation Engines, which
Aurora supposedly uses. This propulsion means leaves very distinctive
contrails, looking like a string of rings , aka "donuts", on a rope..
This craft is supposed to operate in the mach 4-10 range, from what I've
heard. Although, it is triangular in shape, not cylindrical.. 

ttyl
-Steve
-- 
     darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616    
   DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net
Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 14:24:05 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19990;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:19:55 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:19:55 -0700
Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CD6 xch-cpc-02>
From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Time travel and Fermi's paradox WAS: Re: Faster than light  u
	pdate
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:19:34 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"pHuyo.0.5u4.v7vlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20928
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Time travel in the forward direction is easy. Just travel near the speed of
light for a while, and then come back. It will be the future.
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Chuck Davis[SMTP:roshicorp ROSHI.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Wednesday, July 29, 1998 2:10 PM
> To: 	Robert I. Eachus
> Subject: 	Re: Time travel and Fermi's paradox WAS: Re: Faster than
> light  update
> 
> On 29-Jul-98, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
> >At 11:59 AM 7/29/98 -0500, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
> >>Arthur C. Clarke once said that he believed time travel wasn't possible 
> >>since we weren't being visited by tourists from the future. If human
> nature 
> >>holds, I'd say that makes sense; if time travel really was possible,
> future 
> >>humans should be here now.
> 
> >    On the other hand, a lot of the Bible makes sense if human evolution
> >changes human nature substantially by the time time travel is discovered.
> >(And on the other hand, a lot of Greek mythology makes sense if it
> doesn't.
> >;-)
> 
> 
>  We're _all_ "time" travelers. We just forgot, how :)
> -- 
>     .-.                                                               .-.
>    /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
>   /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /
> \
> -/--Chuck Davis
> -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
>     RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
>            \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
>             `-'                                               `-'
>  http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 15:05:41 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA30838;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:02:27 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:02:27 -0700
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:02:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Something flied very above the sound speed
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980729155954.00cd7504 mail.eden.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980729144322.10916F-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"zdBM-.0.lX7.plvlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20929
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Scott Little wrote:

> You did not hear a sonic boom?  Perhaps the craft was simply too far away.
> Does anybody know if it is possible to see a supersonic craft with the
> naked eye and not be able to hear a sonic boom from it?

Meteors move that fast, yet we hear nothing.  Of course if the distance is
great, the "boom" is greatly delayed (10 mi distance gives 48sec delay,
and the atmospheric pressure gradient causes sound to bend upwards.)

Horizontal meteor trajectories are rare but not impossible.  I vaguely
recall a report from the late 50s of a large meteor which travelled
horizontally across the west coast of the USA and then left the atmosphere
again (it "bounced").  It even left a contrail.

There is another "horizontal meteor" phenomenon which is more common: 
space debris undergoing reentry.  If seen during the day, it would be
difficult to tell the difference between a distant reflective aircraft and
a distant hunk of brightly-burning metal.  Both might leave contrails. 
The latter would appear to move abnormally fast, unless compared against
possible secret military hypersonic transports.  Would a reentering
booster shed burning fragments? (If I was trying to keep my hypersonic
project a secret, I would make it "shed burning fragments" occasionally.)


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 15:14:22 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00443;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:09:05 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:09:05 -0700
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:09:35 -0700
Message-Id: <199807292209.PAA15255 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Something flied very above the sound speed
Resent-Message-ID: <"DlGyG2.0.p6.0svlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20930
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>At 22:11 7/29/98 +0300, Hamdi Ucar wrote:
>>Hi all,
>>
>>This afternoon I saw briefly a very far object at the sky (far enough if
>it was an airliner, its wings could not be seen by naked eye) like a body
>of a airliner. I estimated 4 to 10 Mach, I wonder how can object travel
>without distubing the air. 
>
>You did not hear a sonic boom?  Perhaps the craft was simply too far away.
>Does anybody know if it is possible to see a supersonic craft with the
>naked eye and not be able to hear a sonic boom from it?
>
>Scott

I have attended several air shows at Beale AFB, home of the U2 and SR71 spy
planes.  The SR71 has flown over the air show, after having made a quick
round trip to South America!  The joke is, the pilot radios in to a rooky
controller announcing he is ready to make his approach, and is passing over
Boulder Colorado!  The Rooky tells the pilot not to be a pest, and to call
back when he is close.  Of course a minute or two go by, and he announces he
is now over Reno, what should he do........

Anyway, I have seen the plane fly over head at over Mach 2.  you get a
double sonic boom that is very loud, even though the plane is up at about
60,000 feet altitude.  It is not possible to see the plane with the naked
eye, though if you know where to look, you can see it with binoculars.  To
demonstrate this, the pilot dumps kerosene into the exhaust to make some
contrails.  By turning the contrails on and off, you can tell where the
plane is, but when they are off, you can't see a thing.  The plane is black,
but the air in front of the plane is scattering light and obscurring your
ability to see it.

The sonic boom doesn't make it down to the ground until after the plane is
completely past the AFB and out of sight again (ie, probably at about a 45
degree angle I guess without looking up the cone shape for Mach 2.5).

It is a really impressive sight.

As for Hamdi's sighting, it is hard to say.  There was a meteor that
streaked through the atmosphere at high Mach and cruised right on back out
into space.  That one was filmed by amateurs up in Montana if I recall.  For
a meteor, you wouldn't hear a sonic boom because it is a lot further away
than you would imagine.  ie 60,000 feet is just 12 miles up, whereas a
meteor might be a couple hundred miles up.

Hamdi, could you tell for certain that it was a plane, and not a meteor?  If
it was a plane, then the apparent motion could be fast, but the speed slow,
if it were closer.   But then you would expect to make out details of the
plane.  And if it is further, then it is not likely a plane, and instead,
something streaking through the atmosphere, ergo white hot.  

So if it looked hot, ie giving off a lot of abnormal light, then that might
be a clue.  If not, then any craft moving at high speed should give off a
sonic boom that you would hear if it was really faster than sound and within
say, 15 miles range.

Ross Tessien





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 15:19:48 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17153;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:17:05 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:17:05 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:09:33 -0700
Message-Id: <199807292209.PAA15252 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: ;-)  def:  "Politics"
Resent-Message-ID: <"vi0OU1.0.wB4.Uzvlr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20931
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


The word 'politics' is derived from the word 'poly' meaning 'many', and the
word 'ticks' meaning 'blood sucking parasites'. 

                Larry Hardiman 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 15:35:39 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20261;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:30:55 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:30:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: "Scudder, Henry J" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:23:22 -0700
Message-ID: <yam7514.1100.18426840 mail.earthlink.net>
In-Reply-To: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CD6 xch-cpc-02>
X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck
Organization: ROSHI Corporation
Subject: RE: Time travel and Fermi's paradox WAS: Re: Faster than light  u pdate
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"DYDSr1.0.Ly4.SAwlr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20932
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 29-Jul-98, Scudder, Henry J wrote:
>Time travel in the forward direction is easy. Just travel near the speed of
>light for a while, and then come back. It will be the future.
>Hank

 Yup. Happens every time I take a nap ;^)
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
 http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 15:33:51 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09924;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:31:25 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:31:25 -0700
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:32:09 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Minato Motor Demo report?
X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <199807292231.PAA21735 smtp1.asu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Y66YE3.0.xQ2.yAwlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20933
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Has everyone forgotten all about the Minato motor?
Where is the full report promised, according to Gene, by Hal Fox?
Does anyone know what happened at the demo?

As a reminder, here is Gene's post:

*********Begin quote**********

       From:  "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
    Reply-To:  vortex-l eskimo.com
         To:  "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>

Vortexians: 

I spoke to Bob Vermillion of Tri-Cosmos Development (Los Angeles, CA  
310-284-3250 or fax 310-284-3260) today, just before he left for the 
three-day demonstrations of the Minato magnetic motor being held in 
Mexico City, Mexico on July 8, 9, 10th.

Three (3) Minato Motors (MM), covered by US patents  5,594,289 (Jan 14, 
1997) and 4,751,486 (June 14, 1988), have been brought over from Japan. 
One was allegedly tested last evening by  Grupo Bufete Industrial 
(supposedly one of the largest power generation construction companies
in Mexico and South America). The company engineers were said (by 
Vermillion) to have measured an output/input ratio of  4.3 / 1.  The 
printed literature, which I received in a Fedex packet from Vermillion 
states that the device can put out 500 watts (maximum) with an input of 
34 watts. For those of you who wonder why the device is not 
self-sustaining -- oral info from Vermillion is that Minato *will* in
the course of one of the demonstrations *remove the battery power
supply* and let the device self-run -- presumably with a load.  The
press release makes no bones about the physics-busting character of the
MM: "As rotations per minute (rpm's) increase, the electromagnetic
consumption of the stator decreases. This phenomenon is in direct
conflict with accepted laws of physics and is achieved through the
repelling magnetic fields. It operates without heat, noise, or pollution
of any kind. It can be produced in size from ultra-small to very
large."  It is said in the press release that applications from cell
phones to laptop computers are under development.

Vermillion told me of other parties who were planning to attend the 
demonstrations, which will be conducted both in public displays and 
with private party measurements. These include: ENRON, Bechtel, Tejas (a 
division of Shell Oil Corporation), Fluor Daniels, Kellogg  Corp. . He 
told me that Hal Fox of New Energy News and the Fusion Information
Center will be there (I confirmed with Hal that he will be there and
will give us a full report.) I considered going myself (I was invited),
but I trust Hal Fox to provide a full report -- he should be back this
weekend.

 Mr. Kohei Minato will be there -- he has already arrived, I understand. 
He hand carried one of the motors that was already tested yesterday. The 
wealthy Japanese individual who owns Tri-Cosmos Dev. Co.  is Mr. Charly 
Fujiki. Attendance is by invitation only, but let me here provide the 
Grupo Bufete numbers:  (723-45-78 and Fax  723-47-18 in Mexico City).
The exhibition will be in the Grupo Bufete Industrial building. The 
invitation says: "Mr. Minato, the inventor, will be present to explain 
and demonstrate his remarkable breakthrough in technology to government 
and business leaders in Mexico. He will also discuss the possible use   
(and) application for various other industries, including a giant 
generator project, based on the principal mechanism being displayed." 
Daily demonstrations are from 10:30 am to Noon, 4:30 to 5:30 pm and 6 to 
7:30 pm.

A block diagram of the motor indicates that it is about 500 kg. An arrow 
indicates that its 500 watt output goes to a load -- schematically 
indicated as an array of light bulbs. The unit is within a cube 1.2 
meters on edge. The diagram shows a solar panel(!!) providing input to  
the battery that powers the device  -  I supposes for completeness, but 
that is obviously silly in view of the claim. Vermillion assured me that 
this solar panel was not an essential part of the system.

***********end quote************



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 16:06:26 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21649;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:01:56 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:01:56 -0700
Message-Id: <199807292257.SAA01458 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Minato Motor Demo report?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 19:06:52 -0400
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"6uSyE1.0.6I5.Zdwlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20934
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

L. Kurtz wrote:

>Has everyone forgotten all about the Minato motor?
>Where is the full report promised, according to Gene, by Hal Fox?
>Does anyone know what happened at the demo?

Hal Fox has a full report in his newsletter -- I think I posted something 
about that some time ago to Vortex. Inconclusive was the conclusion by 
Hal. Not an adequate demo, in his opinion.. But check his NEN report 
yourself.

Best, Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 16:19:21 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28963;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:16:23 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:16:23 -0700 (PDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: sh.diac.com: ekwall2 owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:04:23 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
Reply-To: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Something flied very above the sound speed
In-Reply-To: <35BF73FB.B22A9F90 verisoft.com.tr>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980729164223.21021A-100000 sh.diac.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"-wlLj.0.P47.3rwlr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20935
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Hamdi Ucar wrote:

Hi all,

This afternoon I saw briefly a very far object at the sky (far enough if it was an airliner, its wings could not be seen by naked eye) like a body of a airliner. I estimated 4 to 10 Mach, I wonder how can object travel without distubing the air. 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

----------------------
Hi Hamdi, 

  Check National Geographic (august 1998 3D mars issue) on page 1,2,3,4
including inside cover about a company called "IRIDIUM" that is providing
global
telephone service.  They have a website   http://www.iridium.com, that
mentioned 9-13 LEO (low earth orbit satellites) that are producing
flash-backs of light that can even be seen in the DAY time from 5-20
seconds.. <a
href="http://www.iridium.com/english/tech/satellite/sat_content.html">
exact page here</a>

  http://www.iridium.com/english/tech/satellite/sat_content.html

Anyway this is 
seen by many astronomers now (clubs/data etc..) very predictable
and appearantly brighter than VENUS in the sky.  If the earth is turning
3,000 mph+ would this fit your sighting??  Was it over 20 seconds??
  at 1,000 miles up (low) that would explain not distubing the air.

just a thought, hope this is your answer.
-=se=-
steve ekwall
ekwall2 diac.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 16:22:59 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26729;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:16:29 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:16:29 -0700
Message-Id: <35BFAC52.5C588B22 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:12:18 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Something flied very above the sound speed
References: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CD5 xch-cpc-02>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"vl98S2.0.YX6.Brwlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20936
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Here my complete report. Indeed I hear a classical plane noise after 30 second later, but did not related to this as there is always middle altitude air traffic here,  not like to super sound or cracking military jet sound, simply medium distance airliner
 noise. I hear distant plane noises by couples of minutes.

There was no trail or anything remnant, I lost it while I run to the window (window was open), not by limitation of view angle but like it was too small for searching in the sky.
----------------------------------------------------

Occurred 15 minutes ago 17:15 July 29,1998 local time Istanbul.
I was sitting on my bed and looking the sky trough the window making a small aperture of 50 cm at 2.5m my position. Sky was hazy as usual (but free of clouds) and very bright as the Sun is making a small angle to my direction of view.
I saw an instant reflection of sun of a plane of very high altitude, at about 25-30 degree from horizon. It appear very small, smaller than 5 mm at 1 m, I saw no wings, although it will be impossible to see wings at this distance and conditions. So what i
t trigger me its speed, it crossed my window aperture in a second (I estimate 25 cm at 2.5m) maybe 5 to 10 times faster than airliner at this altitude. As I stand and run to the window and loose its track while I moving, mostly because very hard to see un
der bright sun light. So the sighting remain not conclusive, but it could not be a airliner I think.

Its reflection coming from its side as I saw, Its position make 30 degree to the Sun, so the reflection angle could be 15 degree, and its direction could be 15 degree off horizontally toward me. It is consistent to my observation of its trajectory. So its
 overall trajectory angle is about 40-30 degree to me. If it crossed 25 cm at 2.5m at one second it should cross 1.5 km at 15 km in one second, by making 30 degree sinus adjustment 0.5 it makes 1.5km/0.5 = 3 km/sec. about 10 Mach.

If I am wrong in my estimations by 5 times, it remain 2 Mach, enough to distinct a UFO than airliner.(Please note there are similar sightings on UFO literature)

Note: its color and dimensions appears as airliner at I estimated distance. it could not be a small jet plane passing closer, because it will be easier to see by making more contrast in the sky by not affecting by the haze. Its direction could be South-We
st.

The sun reflection was a tiny line and endure fraction of a second, but not a flash. After the shine gone it remain a hardly visible (low contrast, probably grey) elongated body that I could track it about one second.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

My conclusion, if my observation is correct, it should be unusual object, with metallic smooth surface, and more than 10 km distance (according the contrast). If it was close and were a plane I should see its wings and other details. If it were distant, I
t should have very high speed, and just I see it, this high speed triggered my interest without a calculation. 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 17:08:51 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08357;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:03:15 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:03:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: VCockeram aol.com
Message-ID: <4bc10528.35bfb639 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:54:32 EDT
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: H2 Glow discharge with a K electrode
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62
Resent-Message-ID: <"WZxyL2.0.T22.zWxlr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20937
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a message dated 98-07-28 12:44:16 EDT, you write:
>  How are things going with your H & K
>  experiment?
>  Tom Stolper

As this is a "garage" experiment I have had to put it on hold until the 
weather cools a bit. My garage is not airconditioned and the temperatures
frequently reach 115 deg F and I'm just not going to sit out there and
deal with that.

The last runs I did were calibration H2 no K, .5 inch electrode gap. 
The best degrees C per watt was 15.56497 at a fill of 6.0 in Hg.  This
agrees with my best temperatures all were at that fill pressure with
or without the addition of metallic K.
My order of 20 quartz tubes arrived ( a buck each) so now all future
runs will be with a new tube. 

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 17:12:48 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08542;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:04:30 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:04:30 -0700 (PDT)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35BFB6C8.876129B css.mot.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:56:56 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Discussion Group - Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Something flied very above the sound speed
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980729164223.21021A-100000 sh.diac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"mtIuV.0.L52.BYxlr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20938
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Steve Ekwall wrote:

>   Check National Geographic (august 1998 3D mars issue) on page 1,2,3,4
> including inside cover about a company called "IRIDIUM" that is providing
> global telephone service.  They have a website   http://www.iridium.com

... those are our birds.  8^)  The network is operational as of the beginning of
this month.  Service is to be officially begin in September.  

Now that I know they can be seen, I will look!  8^)



-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
         Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
         Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 17:16:32 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11900;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:14:10 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:14:10 -0700
Message-Id: <35BFB9D5.7C053F67 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:09:57 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Something flied very above the sound speed
References: <199807292209.PAA15255 Au.oro.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"rcXQu2.0.pv2.Hhxlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20939
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Ross Tessien wrote:
> 
Hi Ross,

my sighting was marginal, I could not check things twice, as the total time is less than 2 seconds. In Istanbul there is heavy air traffic, and the object was on the area where plane passes. I give very low possibility military planes, as I newer saw pass
ing on high altitude. They are maybe one or two times per year, (F16?) flying at low altitude. We have not more advanced planes here I think. 


Only thing what I could check further is the exact visibility figures from meteorology.

[snip]
 
> Hamdi, could you tell for certain that it was a plane, and not a meteor?  If
> it was a plane, then the apparent motion could be fast, but the speed slow,
> if it were closer.   But then you would expect to make out details of the
> plane.  And if it is further, then it is not likely a plane, and instead,
> something streaking through the atmosphere, ergo white hot.

I am sure it was sun reflection, the reflection (a thin line along the object) was slided, appeared slided top to button but I am not sure, like moving on a cylindrical surface. After the shine gone, object appear gray, making low contrast with the sky, b
ut recall the object appears very small, these details may not be correct. I also suggest the object surface is smooth and its elongated body was directed on its trajectory as a plane does, see sun reflection sketch.  
> 
> So if it looked hot, ie giving off a lot of abnormal light, then that might
> be a clue.  If not, then any craft moving at high speed should give off a
> sonic boom that you would hear if it was really faster than sound and within
> say, 15 miles range.
> 
> Ross Tessien

I am not expecting distance more than 10-12 miles, as the haze and the city pollution reduce the visibility significantly. Below 15 degree on the horizon, the pollution smoke was very apparent.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 19:54:29 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01813;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:49:27 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:49:27 -0700
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:50:07 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Minato Motor Demo report?
In-reply-to: <199807292257.SAA01458 mercury.mv.net>
X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <199807300249.TAA07954 smtp1.asu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"QjTP12.0.ES.tyzlr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20940
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 07:06 PM 7/29/98 -0400, you wrote:
>L. Kurtz wrote:
>
>>Has everyone forgotten all about the Minato motor?
>>Where is the full report promised, according to Gene, by Hal Fox?
>>Does anyone know what happened at the demo?
>
>Hal Fox has a full report in his newsletter -- I think I posted something 
>about that some time ago to Vortex. Inconclusive was the conclusion by 
>Hal. Not an adequate demo, in his opinion.. But check his NEN report 
>yourself.
>
>Best, Gene Mallove
>

I'm not familiar with his newsletter. Is that something he publishes on the
web somewhere?

Thanks,

--Lynn 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 20:12:47 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05463;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:07:14 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:07:14 -0700
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102800b1e59241cda5 [12.64.37.91]>
In-Reply-To: <35BFB6C8.876129B css.mot.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980729164223.21021A-100000 sh.diac.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:06:08 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Iridium (was: Something flied...)
Resent-Message-ID: <"DmYaC1.0.GL1.XD-lr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20941
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John -

   >  ... those are our birds.  8^)  The network is
   >  operational as of the beginning of this month.
   >  Service is to be officially begin in September.

I've been a fan of this idea since it was science fiction, and now it's here.

I've also been watching IRIDF languishing on the stock market for a while
now, and can't understand the investor disinterest in this. See the 2 page
spread ad in "Wired"? This seems like hottie. What's the deal - they
targeting a tiny market segment with a service/handset that's too expensive
for the rest of us?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 20:27:47 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09950;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:23:03 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:23:03 -0700
Message-ID: <35C0120C.2EDD bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:26:20 -0700
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20  (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Something flied very above the sound speed
References: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CD5 xch-cpc-02> <35BFAC52.5C588B22@verisoft.com.tr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"zFIRJ.0.HR2.MS-lr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20942
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> 
> Here my complete report. 

Hi Hamdi!

Sorry I was unable to respond to your report earlier.  I see that Steve
has mentioned the Iridium system.  Visibility of reflections of the sun
from the Iridium solar cells is predictable and available at:

http://www2.gsoc.dlr.de/satvis/

However, since you actually saw the object and not just a reflection, I
doubt that you saw an Iridium bird.  Looks like you might have seen a
real mothership! 

BTW, Iridium might have a problem.  They have had several bird failures
since launching.  Their stock has plummeted and their planned
operational date in September is in jeopardy.

Regards,
Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 20:34:05 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA10584;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:30:35 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:30:35 -0700
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:24:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: FTL Communication
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980729231808.19312F-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"R3ehg1.0.Db2.RZ-lr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20944
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Vo.,


	a]  an FM 88 to 108 broadcast is or can be demodulated with a 
phased locked loop.  The time constant of the loop is such that audio 
frequency deviation, expressed as 'phase' is recovered.... the ABSOLUTE 
reference of the original FM signal is NOT required....  only  reasonable 
method for detecting change.  The above is well known to ham radio types.

	Helical antennas can exhibit super lumal phase propagation .... 
detection of the resultant can be performed as per standard FM radio.  
This does not mean, per se [one way or the other] that one can transmit 
at a RATE faster than C.... but the propagation can exceed C.

				JHS

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 20:41:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14168;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:39:47 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:39:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Body's Ability To Emit Light Arouses  New Hopes ...
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:32:11 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35c3e91d.172729489 mail-hub>
References: <35BF46AE.F26E2936 verisoft.com.tr>
In-Reply-To: <35BF46AE.F26E2936 verisoft.com.tr>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"OIrb6.0.HT3.0i-lr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20945
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:58:38 +0300, Hamdi Ucar wrote:

>Body's Ability To Emit Light Arouses New Hopes & Fears On Radiation From
>Mobile Phones
>
>http://www.sciencedaily.com/story.asp?filename=980729064343
>
>Regards,
>
>hamdi ucar
Sounds like someone has actually measured an aura.:)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 20:48:32 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12695;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:30:55 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:30:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Auto-Ionization of Water, Free Energy, Sonoluminescence & Griggs.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:23:19 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35c1e653.172014571 mail-hub>
References: <004801bdba95$d1481ee0$f68f85ce default>
In-Reply-To: <004801bdba95$d1481ee0$f68f85ce default>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"vqZME1.0.H63.kZ-lr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20943
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:05:45 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

>To: Vortex
>
>The highest purity water auto-ionizes:
>
>   H2O   <--->  H+ +  OH-
>
>-57 Kcal + E =  0    -37 Kcal
>
>           E = 57 Kcal - 37 Kcal
>
>           E =  20 Kcal (endothermic)
>
>Where is that energy coming from for the
>auto-ionization of H2O?   :-)
[snip]
Obviously it comes from the Boltzmann tail, and if memory serves me
correctly, then only 1 molecule in 1E7 is dissociated in pure water.
I don't think recombination of so few molecules is going to yield
8-50% excess.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 21:40:50 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24425;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:34:30 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:34:30 -0700
Message-ID: <002201bdbb72$c3d4a200$578f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: The Auto-Ionization of Water, Free Energy, Sonoluminescence & Griggs.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:30:15 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"KaWtv2.0.Tz5.LV_lr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20946
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: The Auto-Ionization of Water, Free Energy, Sonoluminescence &
Griggs.

Robin wrote:


>On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:05:45 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>
>>To: Vortex
>>
>>The highest purity water auto-ionizes:
>>
>>   H2O   <--->  H+ +  OH-
>>
>>-57 Kcal + E =  0    -37 Kcal
>>
>>           E = 57 Kcal - 37 Kcal
>>
>>           E =  20 Kcal (endothermic)
>>
>>Where is that energy coming from for the
>>auto-ionization of H2O?   :-)
>[snip]
>Obviously it comes from the Boltzmann tail, and if memory serves me
>correctly, then only 1 molecule in 1E7 is dissociated in pure water.
>I don't think recombination of so few molecules is going to yield
>8-50% excess.

I agree, in part,a temperature increase (tabulated in the CRC handbook)
shows this,
but, are the "forced agitation" approaches
such as Cavitation-Pitting or High Intensity
Sound (you don't see many Sonoluminescent flashes) or shear forces wagging
Boltzman's Tail?   :-)

Regards,    Frederick
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 21:55:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA27976;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:51:57 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:51:57 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35BF4F1C.B87B70C3 css.mot.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:34:36 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Body's Ability To Emit Light Arouses  New Hopes ...
References: <35BF46AE.F26E2936 verisoft.com.tr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ls4nd.0.2r6.il_lr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20947
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> Body's Ability To Emit Light Arouses New Hopes & Fears On Radiation From
> Mobile Phones
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/story.asp?filename=980729064343

The sky is falling!  The sky is falling!  
     Well... not really, but these horrible things might happen if it did.... 
8^)

Apart from raising concern, there doesn't seem to be a lot of substance.  I
found the following passage interesting though:

"Russian scientists are already experimenting with a form of electromagnetic
acupuncture - applying microwave radiation to acupuncture points in an attempt
to treat medical conditions, and they claim they are having some considerable
success. "

This could have some merit and could explain how stratigically placed *metal*
pins on the body could generate the theraputic claims of traditional
acupucture.  The pins could act as field concentrators or disrupters (clasically
thought as manipulating 'chi', a persons life energy).  Add some juice to
similarly placed leads and the effect could be amplified.

Isn't it ironic that as we 'advance' as a society we keep learning how much
smarter we used to be?  hee hee hee

Just my impression.  Thanks for posting Hamdi.


-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
         Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
         Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 22:20:24 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00313;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:13:17 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:13:17 -0700
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:18:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: FTL Communication
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980729231808.19312F-100000 college>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980729221450.16805A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"pInaQ2.0.k4.i30mr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20948
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, John Schnurer wrote:

> 
> 	Dear Vo.,
> 
> 	a]  an FM 88 to 108 broadcast is or can be demodulated with a 
> phased locked loop.  The time constant of the loop is such that audio 
> frequency deviation, expressed as 'phase' is recovered.... the ABSOLUTE 
> reference of the original FM signal is NOT required....  only  reasonable 
> method for detecting change.  The above is well known to ham radio types.
> 
> 	Helical antennas can exhibit super lumal phase propagation .... 
> detection of the resultant can be performed as per standard FM radio.  
> This does not mean, per se [one way or the other] that one can transmit 
> at a RATE faster than C.... but the propagation can exceed C.
> 
> 				JHS

 
  Thank  you,  John  for  this contribution . I'm not sure what you
 mean by a rate exceeding c since bit rate has nothing to  do  with
 how  fast  those  bits traverse as a block of information across a
 given distance.
 
  But  we  agree  that  in  the closed phase locked loop system you
 mention  that  you  can  have  transfer  of  information   (signal
 propagation)  velocity  exceeding  C.  The bit rate in this system
 would be defined usually by the frequency , possibly one cycle per
 bit.  So if  you  had  a  phase  locked  (closed)  system  in  the
 microwave  region,  your  talking  two  to  100 or so gigabits per
 second with the current technology!
 
  Propagation velocity of those gigabits across  a  given  distance
 though is what we are interested in for FTL , and it seems to have
 been alleged (somewhare) that if the distance is large compared to
 the  wavelength of your carrier that you are limited by t(delay) =
 r/c in the time it would take to send a signal across  a  distance
 defined by r.
 
  So  I  would  like  to hear from someone who believes that signal
 velocities are so limited in this way for closed  systems  and  on
 what  basis in experiment, or in relativity or (ham?) radio theory
 for that matter, this limitation has been shown  to  exist  for  a
 closed (phase-locked loop) system of a given length r as John just
 described.
 
  Anyone?
 
  Jim Ostrowski
 
 
 
 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 23:15:28 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA06638;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:05:29 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:05:29 -0700
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: IE - Mitsubishi paper
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:05:55 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35c208a6.4764603 mail-hub>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"LYMDq1.0.ed1.fq0mr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20949
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have just received my copy of IE Vol 4 # 20, and decided to start
with this article. One thing troubling me about the analysis is that
as examples of mass 57 compounds, they provide 56FeH and 40Ca16OH, yet
as far as I can see, the experiment was carried out using LiOD in D2O
(both > 99% purity), so where did all the H come from? If either
compound were a serious contender as a contaminant, then surely one
would have expected to see a much larger increase in 58Fe than in
57Fe?
Now it may well be that this glaring anomaly is the very reason they
conclude that nuclear reactions have taken place, but I am still
curious why no mention at all was made of 56FeD &/or 40Ca16OD.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 29 23:23:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13094;
	Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:19:29 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:19:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Auto-Ionization of Water, Free Energy, Sonoluminescence & Griggs.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:11:50 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35c40e09.6143437 mail-hub>
References: <002201bdbb72$c3d4a200$578f85ce default>
In-Reply-To: <002201bdbb72$c3d4a200$578f85ce default>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"HnUv_.0.VC3.k11mr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20950
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:30:15 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>I agree, in part,a temperature increase (tabulated in the CRC handbook)
>shows this,
>but, are the "forced agitation" approaches
>such as Cavitation-Pitting or High Intensity
>Sound (you don't see many Sonoluminescent flashes) or shear forces wagging
>Boltzman's Tail?   :-)
[snip]
I thought your whole point was that ionisation *prior to entry into
the device* was storing some extra energy in the water, that was then
released in the device. Wagging Boltzmann's tail in the device
wouldn't have any effect, as it would consume just as much energy as
it delivered.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 03:00:17 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA25721;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:56:28 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:56:28 -0700
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:55:08 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Auto-Ionization of Water, Free Energy, Sonoluminescence & Griggs.
In-Reply-To: <004801bdba95$d1481ee0$f68f85ce default>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980730105343.23900B-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"DTx0F.0.iH6.BD4mr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20952
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> To: Vortex
> 
> The highest purity water auto-ionizes:
> 
>    H2O   <--->  H+ +  OH-
> 
> -57 Kcal + E =  0    -37 Kcal
> 
>            E = 57 Kcal - 37 Kcal
> 
>            E =  20 Kcal (endothermic)
> 
> Where is that energy coming from for the
> auto-ionization of H2O?   :-)
> 
It's permitted at dynamic equilibrium for both forward and reverse 
reactions to occur. No increase in entropy. At constant temp. heat and 
work are interchangeable. No?
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 03:00:31 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA24657;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:53:32 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:53:32 -0700
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:52:12 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: is PVC safe for drinking water (OFF TOPIC)
In-Reply-To: <19980728164550.24700.rocketmail send1e.yahoomail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980730105145.23900A-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"GIfM41.0.B16.SA4mr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20951
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Tue, 28 Jul 1998, Anton Rager wrote:

> 
> I'm lucky if I get a 5 year life cycle with a steel/Alu MTB/BMX bike
> frame.  Even road frames tend to get a bit noodle-like after 5-6 years
> of competition.  If it's cheap, light, durable, and easy to build....I
> would consider a 1-2 year racing life acceptable.
> 
Galvanise 'da mudder.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 03:27:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03974;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:23:36 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:23:36 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:14:12 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: IE#20, boiled light.
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980730111101.23900E-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"AVhR3.0.vz.bc4mr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20954
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Ed Wall,

You wanted to detect neutrons. Parafin wax when set upon by neutrons 
spews protons that can then be detected. This is the setup Chadwick (was 
it he?) used to detect neutrons.

BTW this is really easy to do (apparently) and I'll have a go.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 03:40:25 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA30089;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:04:51 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:04:51 -0700
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:03:00 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Something flied very above the sound speed
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980729155954.00cd7504 mail.eden.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980730110033.23900C-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"o-OWl3.0.bL7.3L4mr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20953
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

If it is going very fast, the Mach cone is very pointed and it might not 
hit the ground until hundreds of miles back. There's a very simple 
relation, I think, of angle = invsin(1/mach no.). By then the boom will 
have dissipated.

Better call the X file investigators
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 03:47:00 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA02708;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:43:06 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:43:06 -0700
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:41:46 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: IE#20, boiled light.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980730111101.23900E-100000 iesun9>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980730114019.23900G-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"z7QYU1.0.Eg.vu4mr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20955
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, I wrote:
 
> Ed Wall,
> 
> BTW this is really easy to do (apparently) and I'll have a go.
> Remi.

Meaning the electrolysis experiment. I've got some ideas to try without 
electrolysis that I stumbled upon when trying to make glass beads porous 
with conc. NaOH. 
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 03:50:33 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA06449;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 03:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:37:38 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Photoelectric effect.
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980730111621.23900F-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"tocu-1.0.ha1.Xy4mr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20956
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Vortex,

Thinking along lines of Meyer and Brown's gas and someone keeps saying to 
me what are the 'resonant frequencies?' I have trouble believing that 
molecules break up in the radiofrequency region. Photoelectric effect and 
its interpretation says that it is frequency *not* intensity that would 
cause electrons to be ripped away from atom. Then what of the field 
effect?

I understand that at the low end of the spectrum, field effects are a 
more pertainant description, then waves in the middle, then particles. If 
I can have a very high field ripping electrons from an insulator say, 
isn't that equivalent to a very low frequency and the intensity is doing it?

Should the photoelectric effect be considered on 3 axis: frequency, 
intensity and ke of ejected electrons? It's a kind of combination of 
classical and quantum pictures, no?

Maybe: (hope the ascii art works)

Intensity
^
|
| Classical domain
|
|      .
|     .
|    .
|   . 
|  .
|           Quantum domain
______________________________> freq

Got to formulate it though. Just a hunch. Why should quanta of matter not 
behave classically in an overwelhmingly classical environment?

Where does the excess energy come from: non conservative fields (cycling 
e fields). What is the significance of the 'resonant frequencies'? I've 
got a hunch that's not worth printing here yet.

BTW, I buy that charge cluster stuff but one question, how can something 
a few microns in size travel through a dense liquid and not be viscosily 
damped. 

Remi.
(I'm just an engineer trying to make sense of it and revise/learn more
science without learning thought stultifying paradigms.) 
(Several mesg. today, I don't always respond straight away. Hey that rhymes)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 06:48:32 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA26630;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:43:41 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:43:41 -0700
Message-ID: <006d01bdbbbf$7cd196e0$578f85ce default>
From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Thermal Ratchet , ZPE?
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:37:30 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Resent-Message-ID: <"7VVgX.0._V6.CY7mr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20957
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

 To: Vortex

Might it be possible that "quantum states" can be "modulated" by ZPE?

IOW,The ZPE is added to the 0.025 ev (300 K)
energy levels,possibly raising them to
metastable energy levels that are dumped under the reported o/u conditions?



nth level (metastable?)             _________
                           _________|
                  _________|
           _______|
0.025 ev___|


Suffer!    :-)

Regards,     Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 06:48:57 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA26687;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:44:05 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:44:05 -0700
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:42:45 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: IE#20, boiled light.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980730114019.23900G-100000 iesun9>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980730142856.2124B-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"FN9Cd3.0.pW6.bY7mr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20958
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Vortex,

(Ed et-al) in ie#20 you are getting an ou figure of 1.4-1.5. Got one of 
the original anode effect papers (the others are in German) by Kellog. 
Scanned it, and if I am not mistaken, there isn't much electrolysis going 
on. With so much steam coming off, you should condense it and get a 
figure for how much hydrogen and oxygen is evolving. Get reaction 
enthalpies and you'd do a better energy account. I'm suspicious at how 
you both arrive at a similar ou figure of 1.4-1.5.

Do try the paraffin wax/geiger counter to detect neutrons. Don't 
sterilize yourselves, great shame when a man sings treble.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 08:55:51 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18596;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:53:50 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:53:50 -0700 (PDT)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35C09453.B582B579 css.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:42:11 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Iridium (was: Something flied...)
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980729164223.21021A-100000 sh.diac.com> <l03102800b1e59241cda5@[12.64.37.91]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"CQd4i.0.LY4.9S9mr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20960
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

> Rick Monteverde wrote:
> I've also been watching IRIDF languishing on the stock market for a while
> now, and can't understand the investor disinterest in this. See the 2 page
> spread ad in "Wired"? This seems like hottie. What's the deal - they
> targeting a tiny market segment with a service/handset that's too expensive
> for the rest of us?

The technology is new and has investors skittish, but it works.  Couple that
with Motorola's poor financials this quarter and recently announced
organizational restructuring, can you blame them?  From my perspective, both
Iridium and Motorola stock are undervalued at this time.

Everything works just fine and our first phone is on schedule.  I personally
designed a few of the phone housing tools for the initial rollout.  Looks just
like an average size cellphone with a large antenna.  Big improvement from the
bag and portable dish, eh?   

Not sure what marketing is doing with this program, but it is pretty high
profile for us internally.  I would imagine the initial cost will be high, but
will come down as the customer base opens up.  Pretty typical for new
technology.  Competition will help drive the cost down even more, (there is
another outfit putting up their own satelites, but we are about 1-2 year ahead
of them).  

Will you be able to eventually get one for free at McDonalds with a charity
donation around Christmas time?  Don't hold your breath.  As with trunked
radios, there are specific niche markets this technology will be most effective,
like maritime shipping, oil exploration, global transactions, etc.  Pretty much
anyone that relies on GPS navigation would be probably be very interested in
getting on board.  Localized two way communication for the masses will probably
still be most cost effective using the land based networks however.

> Terry Blanton wrote:
> BTW, Iridium might have a problem.  They have had several bird failures
> since launching.  Their stock has plummeted and their planned
> operational date in September is in jeopardy.

It would apear so, but only from the outside.  Yes, there were around 4-6 birds
that failed to deploy and come online once in orbit, but we put up more than
what was needed.  There are still a few spares left.  Not sure what they plan to
do with the bad ones (...or maybe those have been reserved for coordinating the
black helicopter fleet.... ha ha).  Not sure if it would be cost effective to
try and grab them with a shuttle.  We had everything just shy of bottle rockets
getting them up and into orbit.

As I stated earlier, the stock downturn is troubling, but not unexpected with
the Asia thing messing with the world markets.  September is an absolute around
here for Iridium though.  Wouldn't be too suprised if they scheduled a satelite
broadcast of the first offical call by Galvin.  There will be some serious blood
letting up well up the chain if this program is delayed for any reason.  


-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
         Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
         Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 08:57:23 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18500;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:53:21 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:53:21 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:38:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
cc: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Some more ....Re: FTL Communication
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980729221450.16805A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980730111937.13156E-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"y8fYk1.0.-W4.lR9mr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20959
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

y

	Dear Jim and Vo.,

	NOTE:  Anyone with moderate funds who wants to build such a demo 
getup, contact me off line.


	See comments;

On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 	Dear Vo.,
> > 
> > 	a]  an FM 88 to 108 broadcast is or can be demodulated with a 
> > phased locked loop.  The time constant of the loop is such that audio 
> > frequency deviation, expressed as 'phase' is recovered.... the ABSOLUTE 
> > reference of the original FM signal is NOT required....  only  reasonable 
> > method for detecting change.  The above is well known to ham radio types.
> > 
> > 	Helical antennas can exhibit super lumal phase propagation .... 
> > detection of the resultant can be performed as per standard FM radio.  
> > This does not mean, per se [one way or the other] that one can transmit 
> > at a RATE faster than C.... but the propagation can exceed C.
> > 
> > 				JHS
> 
>  
>   Thank  you,  John  for  this contribution . I'm not sure what you
>  mean by a rate exceeding c since bit rate has nothing to  do  with
>  how  fast  those  bits traverse as a block of information across a
>  given distance.

	The information, be they bits or analog propagate, or can 
propagate at sub C, C or more than C.  For this discussion, call it 
10,000 cps analog audio bandwidth.  

>  
>   But  we  agree  that  in  the closed phase locked loop system you
>  mention  that  you  can  have  transfer  of  information   (signal
>  propagation)  velocity  exceeding  C.


	The 'get from here to there' rate has to do with the antenna 
structure.  The different parameters are described in antenna handbooks 
and texts dealing with helicals.  Helicals are not the only structure, 
but are an example.  The phase propagation rate is a function of pitch, 
spacing, diameter and I am no math guy.... the math is in the books.

:::::

  The bit rate in this system
>  would be defined usually by the frequency , possibly one cycle per
>  bit.  So if  you  had  a  phase  locked  (closed)  system  in  the
>  microwave  region,  your  talking  two  to  100 or so gigabits per
>  second with the current technology!
>  

	This discussion has nothing to do with bit rate per se... only 
that you can get from here to there at faster than C.

::::


>   Propagation velocity of those gigabits across  a  given  distance
>  though is what we are interested in for FTL , and it seems to have
>  been alleged (somewhare)

==========

	Apples and oranges....

	a] C, sub C and over C phase propagation is known, changing the 
antenna shape changes the properties.

	b] bit rate VS type [s] of encoding VS WL (wavelength) is a whole 
other this.

	c]  you could send the word "Hello" at more than C ... on a 100 
mcps carrier.

 that if the distance is large compared to
>  the  wavelength of your carrier that you are limited by t(delay) =
>  r/c in the time it would take to send a signal across  a  distance
>  defined by r.
>  


	We are taling about phase propagation .... NOT amplitude keying.



	If you have the power to get the signal to the reciever then the 
distance does not matter.



>   So  I  would  like  to hear from someone who believes that signal
>  velocities are so limited in this way for closed  systems 


	The method I describe is open.   The Send and Rec units are not 
time locked, any more than your home FM radio is.

 and  on
>  what  basis in experiment, or in relativity or (ham?) radio theory
>  for that matter, this limitation has been shown  to  exist  for  a
>  closed (phase-locked loop) system


	PLLs in a reciever can be referenced to themselves ....
	Now we have apples... oranges and grapes....  

	Look at any PLL discussion..... the PLL from FM demodulation does 
NOT have to be time locked to the sender.  As a simplistic discussion the 
center free running frequency of the VCO, voltage controlled oscillator, 
section  only ha to be in a suitable range to demodulate.... and the 
filter loop time constant has to be appropriate.

	If standard FM REQUIRED time locking then the radio design would 
be different than it has been for years.  There are also non PLL designs, 
based on frequency differentiation which do NOT have PLL at all.


	See any good radio book or older Radio Amateur Handbook ... and 
also their antenna handbook.

	All of this stuff is at least 30 to 50  years old.   


 of a given length r as John just
>  described.
>  
>   Anyone?
>  
>   Jim Ostrowski
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 09:03:18 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19218;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:57:38 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:57:38 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:42:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
cc: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Charge clusters....Re: Photoelectric effect.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980730111621.23900F-100000 iesun9>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980730114042.13156F-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"sR4883.0.4i4.fV9mr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20961
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear R and V..


	Ken Shoulders' method of launching CCs in moderate pressure xenon 
gas tubes works.... and the CCs go real slow.... it is cool to think of a 
ball of 10 ^ 11 power electrons moving slowly along the tube...  
	Contact off line for demo stuff.


						J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 09:34:21 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23552;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:16:07 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:16:07 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:01:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Remi is bouncing
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980730120114.13156I-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"zMjqB1.0.nl5.4n9mr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20962
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



	Header said 'er.


				J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 09:46:48 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27162;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:42:19 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:42:19 -0700
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:35:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Will replicate for food... (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980730123545.13156K-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"2yy3q.0.Ke6.h9Amr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20963
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:35:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Will replicate for food...


	a] Barker method for accelerated decay or radioactivty
	b] super lumal EM transmission
	c] separation of electric and magnetic components of LF EM 
	d] instrumentation of the effects of 'healer' on water
	e] propagation modulation ie., modulationi in real time of rate 
for phase propagation... eg., modulation from 0.7 C to 0.8 C 
	f] non doppler non pulsed laser range finding
	g] real time monitoring of CTS [carpal tunnel syndrome] actions 
on a mouse or keyboard of computer
	h] super acoustic propagation in many solids
	i] earth 'self currents' measurement for mineral exploration, 
from micro volts or amps to milli volts of amps with compression in the 
real time analog domain of 100,000 : 1
	j] detection of probably microburst activity, directional
	k] magneto seismology
	l] non silicon, germanium, GaAs semiconductors
	m] chemical and other non electronic neural networks
	n] field guided magnetic materials
	o] passive optical vehicle velocimetry
	p] Those aspects of Ken Shoulders' Charge Clusters in mediu, 
pressure gas tubes as he has given permission for.
	q]  ..you pick it ... 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 12:37:26 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA31416;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:50:23 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:50:23 -0700
Message-ID: <01BDBBC0.B2E1CF60.stk sunherald.infi.net>
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: FTL Communication
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:48:13 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"BzS8K1.0.hg7.k1Cmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20964
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



-----Original Message-----
From:	Jim Ostrowski [SMTP:jimostr victor1.mscomm.com]
Sent:	Thursday, July 30, 1998 12:18 AM
To:	Vortex
Subject:	Re: FTL Communication

>  So  I  would  like  to hear from someone who believes that signal
> velocities are so limited in this way for closed  systems  and  on
> what  basis in experiment, or in relativity or (ham?) radio theory
> for that matter, this limitation has been shown  to  exist  for  a
> closed (phase-locked loop) system of a given length r as John just
> described.

Well, here's something to look into. Decide for yourself:

1. A scientist in Russia named Dr. Vladimir I. Sekerin wrote an article 
titled "Gnosiological Peculiarities in the Interpretations of Observations 
(For example the Observations of Double Stars)". Basically, this article 
gives experimental results which show that the velocity of light coming 
from a moving source (binary stars) indicates a C velocity of C+V.

2. B.G. Wallace, Spectros. Lett., 2, 361 (1969)
3. B.G. Wallace, Found. Phys., 3, 381 (1973)
Both of these articles present experimental evidence from 1961 using radar 
reflections from Venus to determine the speed of light give a residual that 
ranges to about 3 milliseconds over the expected error of 10 microseconds 
(the best fit Lincoln Lab could generate, taking into account GR, 
tropospheric effects, etc.) or a disagreement with the predicted 
relativistic values of about 30,000%. They found that the speed of light 
acted in a C+V Galilean sense.

Obviosly, light doesn't travel C+V on earth. Why would it act this way in 
interplanetary space?

Anyone care to comment on this? Very confusing...
Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 13:14:52 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14447;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:11:56 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:11:56 -0700
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102800b1e6832566d9 [12.64.4.224]>
In-Reply-To: <35C09453.B582B579 css.mot.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980729164223.21021A-100000 sh.diac.com>
 <l03102800b1e59241cda5 [12.64.37.91]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:10:49 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Iridium (was: Something flied...)
Resent-Message-ID: <"oZ6kX1.0.fX3.BEDmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20965
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John -

Thanks for the Iridium update.

   >  From my perspective, both Iridium and
   >  Motorola stock are undervalued at this time.

I think so too. I added a couple thousand$ worth of IRIDF to my portfolio
recently.

Too bad I'm only playing with monopoly money.  :(

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 13:50:49 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06011;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:46:38 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:46:38 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:51:04 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Storms paper on line
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807301553_MC2-54A0-A823 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"BLlge1.0.rT1.ikDmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20966
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

A paper by Storms is available on line:

http://www.jse.com/storms/1.html

Journal of Scientific Exploration

"Critical Review of the 'Cold Fusion' Effect" by Dr. Edmund Storms

Abstract-- More than 190 studies reporting evidence for the "cold fusion"
effect are evaluated. New work has answered criticisms by eliminating many of
the suggested errors. Evidence for large and reproducible energy generation as
well as various nuclear reactions, in addition to fusion, from a variety of
environments and methods is accumulating. The field can no longer be dismissed
by invoking obvious error or prosaic explanations. 


Storms is REQUIRED READING for anyone who wants to know about CF.


I recommend the rest of the Journal's home page:

http://www.jse.com/JSE_Home.html




Here is an good paper for people who want to write technical prose:

http://www.research.att.com/~andreas/sci.html

The Science of Scientific Writing

George D. Gopen and Judith A. Swan

Subtitle: If the reader is to grasp what the writer means,  the writer must
understand what the reader needs 


- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 13:53:45 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA32081;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:47:51 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:47:51 -0700
From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: H2 Glow discharge with a K electrode
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:54:20 -0400
Message-ID: <01bdbbfc$39740760$0c6cd626 george.varisys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"tUud3.0.3r7.slDmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20967
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Vince,
Thanks for the status report on your experiment.
Kind of wild weather down there in the southwest. Two thirds
of my lab space is in a garage connected to the house and
is only heated/cooled when I leave the door to the house 
open. The only time this has been inconvenient is during 
mid winter in NJ. Wouldn't want to try the indirect AC at 115F
outside temperatures however.
You wrote:
>
>The last runs I did were calibration H2 no K, .5 inch electrode gap. 
>The best degrees C per watt was 15.56497 at a fill of 6.0 in Hg.  This
>agrees with my best temperatures all were at that fill pressure with
>or without the addition of metallic K.
>
Could you provide a power level or thermocouple reading to go
with the deg. C per watt for this data point. The deg. C per watt
number is not very meaningful without this information.
-
Hope it cools down outside so the experiment can heat up again.
-
Regards,
George Holz  - george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 18:06:11 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13380;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:58:47 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:58:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: VCockeram aol.com
Message-ID: <53cf05a8.35c114bd aol.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:50:03 EDT
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: H2 Glow discharge with a K electrode
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62
Resent-Message-ID: <"LT72w.0.qG3.3RHmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20968
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a message dated 98-07-30 16:53:22 EDT, you write:
> Could you provide a power level or thermocouple reading to go
>  with the deg. C per watt for this data point. .......
    <<snip>>.
>  Regards,
>  George Holz  - george varisys.com
>  Varitronics Systems

 Sure, here are all the measurements for that particular run.
Legend:

Tv-- is Tube Voltage +/- 10 volts
Tc-- is degrees C +/- .01 C
Ta-- is Tube amps +/-  .1 amp
Tw-- is Ta x Tv
C/W-- is Tc / Tw
----------------------------------------------

Tc----------547.7
Tv----------950
Ta----------.03704
Tw----------35.188
C/W--------15.564965

 Electrode(s) (W) gap was .50 inch. 
 Fill pressure was 6.0 in Hg +/- .2 in Hg. No K in a virgin tube
 
 The K type thermocouple was strapped tightly to the 
outside tube wall at the center of the electrode gap with 
a fibreglass sleeve with two small lengths of SS wire 
inside the sleeve providing the strapping force so that
the thermocouple bead was in contact with only the 
tube wall and the fibreglass sleeve. 
The entire tube/thermocouple rig is enclosed in a ~5 inch square
polycarbonate (1/4 in thick plexiglass) box with two 1 in diameter
vent holes located at the top and bottom of the box.  
Even with the vent holes the sides of the box are showing
signs of melting.  The box is there mainly to eliminate stray air
currents from disturbing the thermocouple reading and as
a safety shield.

George, if you are up this way I am on vacation for another week.
No gambling for me but I will provide food/cold beer and a pool.
We could conduct some runs in the evening. I could put you up for
a night as I have a spare bedroom and the wife and dogs
are quite used to visitors. 

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas Nevada
702-254-2122

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 18:51:17 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00976;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:46:33 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:46:33 -0700
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:43:55 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Not DISINTERESTED!
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807302146_MC2-54B2-7D2D compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"a8Q-a3.0.7F.u7Imr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20969
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Someone who shall remain nameless here used the word "disinterested" when he
meant "uninterested." Disinterested mean objective, "Free of bias and
self-interest; impartial" (American Heritage Dictionary). You want a jury or
an investment councilor to be disinterested, but not uninterested.

I am fighting a rear guard action on this. I know I must lose -- nobody can
stop the tide of language -- but this one grates on me!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 18:55:31 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21987;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:54:37 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:54:37 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:43:40 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Arima made education minister
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199807302146_MC2-54B2-7D2C compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"PEP383.0.SN5.SFImr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20970
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Bad news from Japan. Today's Yomiuri newspaper highlights the appointment of
Akito Arima (67) as Min. of Education in the new Obuchi cabinet. Arima is
Japan's version of Huizenga and Morrison rolled into one. He is the
arch-opponent of cold fusion. This puts him in charge of the national
universities, where a few brave, beleaguered scientists are still struggling
to research cold fusion. I expect he will try to stamp out the last CF
research in Japan. Arima was elected to the upper house of Parliament
recently. Commentators are praising Arima for being an apolitical outsider, a
breath of fresh air. If only they knew! He is a thoroughly political animal.
He denounced cold fusion within days of the 1989 announcement, and he has
never examined the evidence or retracted in any way, as far as I know.

Actually, that's tomorrow's Yomiuri, July 31 morning edition, which is
delivered to me via satellite several hours before tomorrow comes. If only I
could arrange to have the Wall Street Journal delivered one day ahead of time,
I could make a killing on Wall Street.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 20:19:51 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04627;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:12:31 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:12:31 -0700
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:17:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Faster than Light update
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980729104724.00c4a100 spectre.mitre.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980730201055.24022A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"Q_C_s2.0.D81.VOJmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20971
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

 
  Ok  there  seems  to  be a lot technical confusion going on about
 what exactly is FTL signalling.  The  arguments  get  bogged  down
 eventually  as usual with repeated assertions about group velocity
 vs phase velocity of waves when all we  really  want  to  know  is
 whether  or  not  we  can  get the basic element of information (a
 "bit") down the hallway or to the moon , Mars or wharever is  some
 time less than t if t is defined as r/c .
 
  For example if a chopped light pulse is assumed to travel like  a
 slug  of  "photons" that propagate more or less like a bullet from
 source (transmitter) to target (receiver) at 1 foot per ns and  we
 have  a  target 30 feet away as light travels ( in a straight line
 or reflected off a mirror , say) then if  we  were  to  detect  an
 effect from this slug of photons in some time less than 30 ns from
 the  time  it was observed to leave the transmitting device , then
 can we agree that have we achieved FTL signalling?
 
  Does  the  mechanism  of light propagation work that way to begin
 with, wherein a chopped  "slug"  of  light  say  10  feet-ns  long
 "travels"  like  a  bullet  from the point where it was cut off to
 the energy absorbing device at the target end?
 
 In other words can one safely assume that that the absorber at the
 target end plays no part in the production of the light pulse?

This is answerable with a yes or a no .

 Jim Ostrowski
 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 22:12:03 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14852;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:07:21 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:07:21 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980731011109.0084dad0 cnct.com>
X-Sender: knagel cnct.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:11:12 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel cnct.com>
Subject: RE: Faster than Light update
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"BVUXS1.0.ud3.74Lmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20972
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 08:17 PM 7/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
>  Does  the  mechanism  of light propagation work that way to begin
> with, wherein a chopped  "slug"  of  light  say  10  feet-ns  long
> "travels"  like  a  bullet  from the point where it was cut off to
> the energy absorbing device at the target end?
> 
> In other words can one safely assume that that the absorber at the
> target end plays no part in the production of the light pulse?
>
>This is answerable with a yes or a no .
>
> Jim Ostrowski
> 

Hi Jim.

Always happy to play the devils advocate...

Basic transmission line theory is predicated on just such an
assumption. For example, a pulse launched into a piece of
cable will "know" about the termination only after the
light speed delay down the length of cable. A substantial
body of experimental evidence exists to support this. A cables
impedance rating is irrespective of its termination, from
the point of view of the driver that cable looks like
it's characteristic impedance.

The situation for free space is quite similar. Light pulses
are simply E&M waves of higher frequency...

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 30 23:34:33 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23724;
	Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:30:58 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:30:58 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:28:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Faster than Light update
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980731011109.0084dad0 cnct.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980730224134.6555A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"CWZwT3.0.co5.WIMmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20973
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Keith Nagel wrote:

> At 08:17 PM 7/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >  Does  the  mechanism  of light propagation work that way to begin
> > with, wherein a chopped  "slug"  of  light  say  10  feet-ns  long
> > "travels"  like  a  bullet  from the point where it was cut off to
> > the energy absorbing device at the target end?
> > 
> > In other words can one safely assume that that the absorber at the
> > target end plays no part in the production of the light pulse?
> >
> >This is answerable with a yes or a no .
> >
> > Jim Ostrowski
> > 
> 
> Hi Jim.
> 
> Always happy to play the devils advocate...
> 
> Basic transmission line theory is predicated on just such an
> assumption. For example, a pulse launched into a piece of
> cable will "know" about the termination only after the
> light speed delay down the length of cable. A substantial
> body of experimental evidence exists to support this. A cables
> impedance rating is irrespective of its termination, from
> the point of view of the driver that cable looks like
> it's characteristic impedance.

Well,this is interesting because you mention "pulse" and you are 100
percent correct about the application of that term to the above situation.

Do you mean by pulse a change of ANY kind? And even though we agree on the
above an obvious mode suggests itself.

" Modulating the characteristic impedance "


> 
> The situation for free space is quite similar. Light pulses
> are simply E&M waves of higher frequency...
> 

 Yes they are , Keith, and they respond to changes in the permeabilty and
permitivity of free space, which defines it's characteristic impedance,
right? And this change is affected by the presence or abscence of material
objects, no? Different materials moved to new locations or out of the way
will make different permeabilties of the "local"  space shared by each end
of a closed system of mutual interaction.


That is the argument, as I understand it and what an experiment I know
about appears to show. 


Thank you soooo much! Here's a little devil for you   >: ^)  !



Cuttin to the chase now ,eh?


Jim



> K.
> 
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 03:45:30 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA11453;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 03:44:15 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 03:44:15 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:34:50 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: 'er test then
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980730120114.13156I-100000 college>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980731113439.13105A-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"XvDTT3.0.oo2.y_Pmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20974
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 03:49:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA12027;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 03:48:53 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 03:48:53 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:44:32 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: sorry if I disappear for a bit
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980731114136.13105C-100000 iesun9>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk>
Resent-Message-ID: <"99kaI3.0.rx2.J4Qmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20975
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Vortex,

I am changing location and I have to see if they have internet 
facilities. I use my old uni account and telnet into it but may setup 
other email.

If things did bounce yesterday, just as well because I'm not fully sure 
about what I said. I have some confusion with the photoelectric effect 
and field emission and the quantum hypothesis.

Best,
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 04:23:57 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA03997;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 04:20:43 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 04:20:43 -0700
Message-Id: <35C19445.DEC451F9 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:54:13 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: GR without SR: A gravitational-domain ... (eprint:gr-qc/9807084)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"HbUrz1.0.H-.AYQmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20976
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

http://xxx.lanl.gov/html/gr-qc/9807084

gr-qc/9807084 30 Jul 1998

GR without SR: A gravitational-domain description of first-order Doppler effects 

Eric Baird 

Equivalence principles are a major part of modern relativity
theory. Gravitational shifts can already be calculated within the
time domain as motion shifts, and we examine the
consequences of reversing this argument and describing motion
shifts outside the time domain, as effects of curvature
associated with relative velocity. This unusual "Doppler mass
shift" approach appears to resolve some of Einstein's own
criticisms of the "SR+GR" model and seems to remove some
barriers to the reconciliation of classical and quantum theory.
The disadvantage of this model is that constant-velocity
problems no longer obey Euclidean geometry. By bypassing
special relativity and the special theory's flat-space
assumptions, the model also suggests an alternative
non-transverse frequency-shift relationship. This difference
should be testable.


Very interesting paper, in html format

Regards, hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 05:29:16 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA11286;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 05:27:38 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 05:27:38 -0700
Message-Id: <35C1ABAF.762596EB verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:34:07 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: "Water Buckyballs" (eprint:physics/9807058)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"XeIzr.0.Fm2.wWRmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20977
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

physics/9807058 30 Jul 1998

                            "Water Buckyballs"

                Chemical, Catalytic, and Cosmic Implications

                 Keith Johnson,* MIT, Cambridge, MA 02139

Possible chemical, catalytic, and cosmic roles of charged pentagonal dodecahedral water clusters having "buckyball-like" symmetry are discussed on the basis of electronic and vibronic theory and experiment. ....

http://xxx.lanl.gov/html/physics/9807058

Regards, hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 07:17:03 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA07700;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:15:39 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:15:39 -0700 (PDT)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35C1CFBF.CB96C70C css.mot.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:07:59 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Discussion Group - Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Iridium
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"UES07.0.9u1.96Tmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20978
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rick, and TWIMC

A close friend of mine works at PageNet <http://www.pagenet.com/>, and he
informs me that his comany will be the sole US distributor of the paging product
that will utilize those birds.  Knowing that, I can probably very accurately
guess that our new two way pager / personal organizer unit is right on schedule
for September too.  If it is anything like the curent land based model; two way
alpha paging, email send/recieve, internet queries, appointment calendar
w/reminder notices, and etc. it should be very popular.

I guess that more accurately answers your original question as to the projected
public availability of the Iridium system.  8^)


-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
         Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
         Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 08:09:04 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11102;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:04:43 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:04:43 -0700
Message-Id: <35C1DC01.C8C02791 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:00:17 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Listserver glitch? (or "test" ?)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"vTjrK1.0.Mj2.AqTmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20979
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Does anybody else experience their postings does not appear on list?

(appearance of this message does not prove the server is functionning properly, otherwise please put it in "test - ignore - delete" category)
:(
hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 08:20:39 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16360;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:18:10 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:18:10 -0700
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:18:40 -0700
Message-Id: <199807311518.IAA05266 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: RE: Faster than Light update
Resent-Message-ID: <"79BwZ.0.S_3.n0Umr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20980
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


> In other words can one safely assume that that the absorber at the
> target end plays no part in the production of the light pulse?
>
>This is answerable with a yes or a no .

Yes.

ie, it plays no part in the production of the light pulse, however, it can
play a roll in the detection of the light pulse, thus fooling us into
thinking that the light pulse has properties beyond what it really does.

As far as the nature of a photon, it seems to me that via the geometries I
am studying, the geometry of a photon is very much like that of a smoke ring
vortex.  If you consider the pressure gradients in a smoke ring vortex, you
come up with some interesting things pertaining to the vortice and it's
geometric make up.  One of these, is that for the vortex to advance at c,
the compression wave information at below the Planck scale must advance at
very much higher than c.  

This is because the pressure information must make a large path in order
that the vortex advance a small distance.  ie, for a smoke ring the
advancement might be at around a few feet per second, whereas the sound
speed in air is about 1,100 ft/s.  There should be a comparable compression
wavefront in aether that is much faster than c.

But to cause, and detect it, will require completely different kinds of
devices.  Our present devices all operate using the shear in the pressure
gradients, whereas we are going to need direct compression devices.  HTSC
devices will be required.

Ross Tessien




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 08:29:55 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18267;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:23:33 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:23:33 -0700
From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:24:00 -0700
Message-ID: <yam7516.42.18428552 mail.earthlink.net>
X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck
Organization: ROSHI Corporation
Subject: Re: [Off Topic] Card Magic! (fwd)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"Chqpu.0.DT4.q5Umr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20981
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello Vorts,

 Here's that little diversion... 

>> http://www.sjc.cc.nm.us/cjta/bait/index.htm

Apologies, if you've already seen it,
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
 http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 08:34:58 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18749;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:33:25 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:33:25 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <35C1E1AB.16A3AE41 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:24:27 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Something flied very above the sound speed
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------70A29971C8A0201B135F89D6"
Resent-Message-ID: <"eEjtY2.0.ta4.2FUmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20983
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------70A29971C8A0201B135F89D6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It doesn't appeared yesterday and try to repost.
(this is my sixth try! Sorry if it appears multiple in your boxes)

Ironically my test message worked fine. May the server does not like spelling errors on subject line. :-)
--------------70A29971C8A0201B135F89D6
Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="nsmailUE.TMP"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="nsmailUE.TMP"

Message-ID: <35C05072.3771C353 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:52:34 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Something flied very above the sound speed
References: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980730110033.23900C-100000 iesun9>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Remi Cornwall wrote:
> 
> If it is going very fast, the Mach cone is very pointed and it might not
> hit the ground until hundreds of miles back. There's a very simple
> relation, I think, of angle = invsin(1/mach no.). By then the boom will
> have dissipated.
> 
> Better call the X file investigators
> Remi.

 I have a combined idea: (science and X-files) May it is possible to avoid shock waves by increasing the sound speed nearby, or creating some super-fluidity. But I have no deep knowledge on superfluidity, and don't know to it is possible to obtain super-f
luidity on gases (at least theoretically). 

Anybody knows could sound propagate on superfluids, and what are the speeds? If possible, what happening while moving an object on superfluids above its sound speed?

Regards,

hamdi ucar





--------------70A29971C8A0201B135F89D6--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 08:34:16 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20098;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:30:18 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:30:18 -0700
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:29:42 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Not DISINTERESTED!
In-reply-to: <199807302146_MC2-54B2-7D2D compuserve.com>
X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <199807310529.WAA28893 smtp1.asu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"hwKfx2.0.sv4.9CUmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20982
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 09:43 PM 7/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
>To: Vortex
>
>Someone who shall remain nameless here used the word "disinterested" when he
>meant "uninterested." Disinterested mean objective, "Free of bias and
>self-interest; impartial" (American Heritage Dictionary). You want a jury or
>an investment councilor to be disinterested, but not uninterested.
>
>I am fighting a rear guard action on this. I know I must lose -- nobody can
>stop the tide of language -- but this one grates on me!
>
>- Jed
>

My pet peeves language-wise are the rampant  misuse of your for you're and
TV news anchors that use "he pled guilty" instead of "he pleaded guilty".
Certainly they should know better.

--Lynn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 08:37:23 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19617;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:35:55 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:35:55 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <01BDBC6D.8BC2D2A0.stk sunherald.infi.net>
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: FTL Communication
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:25:30 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"b7WNI1.0.Ho4.MHUmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20984
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



-----Original Message-----
From:	Kyle R. Mcallister [SMTP:stk sunherald.infi.net]
Sent:	Thursday, July 30, 1998 1:48 PM
To:	'vortex-l eskimo.com'
Subject:	RE: FTL Communication


>1. A scientist in Russia named Dr. Vladimir I. Sekerin wrote an article
>titled "Gnosiological Peculiarities in the Interpretations of Observations 
>(For example the Observations of Double Stars)". Basically, this article
>gives experimental results which show that the velocity of light coming
>from a moving source (binary stars) indicates a C velocity of C+V.
>2. B.G. Wallace, Spectros. Lett., 2, 361 (1969)
>3. B.G. Wallace, Found. Phys., 3, 381 (1973)
>Obviosly, light doesn't travel C+V on earth. Why would it act this way in
>interplanetary space?

Somebody want to actually respond to this, or am I wasting my time as I did 
when this was posted to sci.physics.relativity? Is this too much of a 
"voodoo science" or something? When discussing FTL communication, I think 
something like this should definitely be looked into.

Awaiting a response,
Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 08:55:23 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA22804;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:52:45 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:52:45 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-To: <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
From: "Ed Wall" <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: IE#20, boiled light.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:10:33 -0300
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-Id: <19980731153939.YMQA5585 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"bTfuM1.0.Da5.7XUmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20985
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

What minimum energy must the neutrons have in order to be detected in this
manner?

Although the Mizuno & Ohmori paper does state that evident transmutation
occurred in the tungsten craters that was not found nearby, we are being
cautious about the claim.  I am juggling many projects at the moment and
that one has slipped a bit.

Can you tell me a means to generate neutrons that could be used to check my
not yet constructed neutron detection apparatus?

BTW, I am anxious to build a device like what Jeff Kooistra showed on a
recent videotape he describes well in IE#20.  Seeing the ring spinning at
considerable speed with no movement of the Hg brushes pretty well kills the
notion that a Lortentzian delta-r in the vicinity of the brushes is the
seat of the reactive force (to my thinking, anyway).  The torque imparted
to the ring is quite strong, considering the small power source and the
rotational inertia of the ring, but the Hg is motionless.  So, please tell
us where the reaction forces are.  Of course, Hg would slither across
plexiglass with not a lot of physical resistance.

----------
> From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: IE#20, boiled light.
> Date: Thursday, July 30, 1998 7:14 AM
> 
> Ed Wall,
> 
> You wanted to detect neutrons. Parafin wax when set upon by neutrons 
> spews protons that can then be detected. This is the setup Chadwick (was 
> it he?) used to detect neutrons.
> 
> BTW this is really easy to do (apparently) and I'll have a go.
> Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 09:03:27 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA24955;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:01:42 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:01:42 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:58:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: FTL Communication
In-Reply-To: <01BDBC6D.8BC2D2A0.stk sunherald.infi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980731084353.2065A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"UUcnE3.0.p56.ZfUmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20986
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

> 
> >1. A scientist in Russia named Dr. Vladimir I. Sekerin wrote an article
> >titled "Gnosiological Peculiarities in the Interpretations of Observations 
> >(For example the Observations of Double Stars)". Basically, this article
> >gives experimental results which show that the velocity of light coming
> >from a moving source (binary stars) indicates a C velocity of C+V.
> >2. B.G. Wallace, Spectros. Lett., 2, 361 (1969)
> >3. B.G. Wallace, Found. Phys., 3, 381 (1973)
> >Obviosly, light doesn't travel C+V on earth. Why would it act this way in
> >interplanetary space?
> 
> Somebody want to actually respond to this, or am I wasting my time as I did 
> when this was posted to sci.physics.relativity? Is this too much of a 
> "voodoo science" or something? When discussing FTL communication, I think 
> something like this should definitely be looked into.

Sorry , Kyle I was meaning to but I've been getting private emails about
this and I get sidetracked by them  . In fact my second to last post
I mentioned getting bogged down in discussions about group vs phase
velocity and I noticed no one actually brought this up on line- amazing.
So that I get confused when responding to private emails and vortex.

EVERYONE! I would appreciate it if you would keep this discussion ON -
LINE!,

Thanks.

 
but any way this is a spin-off of the "FTL update" thread apparently
and I am on a track with Keith right now under that header. 

As to C+V for binary stars etc I am not familair enough with
astronometrical procedures to evaluate the above assertion 
posited intelligently . Perhaps you could explain how this was done?

Jim

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 09:19:36 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA30682;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:16:09 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:16:09 -0700
Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5CFD9CDD xch-cpc-02>
From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: FTL Communication
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:16:11 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"dZyMD2.0.JV7.9tUmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20987
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Kyle
	Please give more detail about the experiments and their setup?
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Kyle R. Mcallister[SMTP:stk sunherald.infi.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Friday, July 31, 1998 8:25 AM
> To: 	'vortex-l eskimo.com'
> Subject: 	RE: FTL Communication
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Kyle R. Mcallister [SMTP:stk sunherald.infi.net]
> Sent:	Thursday, July 30, 1998 1:48 PM
> To:	'vortex-l eskimo.com'
> Subject:	RE: FTL Communication
> 
> 
> >1. A scientist in Russia named Dr. Vladimir I. Sekerin wrote an article
> >titled "Gnosiological Peculiarities in the Interpretations of
> Observations 
> >(For example the Observations of Double Stars)". Basically, this article
> >gives experimental results which show that the velocity of light coming
> >from a moving source (binary stars) indicates a C velocity of C+V.
> >2. B.G. Wallace, Spectros. Lett., 2, 361 (1969)
> >3. B.G. Wallace, Found. Phys., 3, 381 (1973)
> >Obviosly, light doesn't travel C+V on earth. Why would it act this way in
> >interplanetary space?
> 
> Somebody want to actually respond to this, or am I wasting my time as I
> did 
> when this was posted to sci.physics.relativity? Is this too much of a 
> "voodoo science" or something? When discussing FTL communication, I think 
> something like this should definitely be looked into.
> 
> Awaiting a response,
> Kyle R. Mcallister
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 09:37:32 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02275;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:33:41 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:33:41 -0700
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-ID: <35C1F1DB.DC49AF22 css.mot.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:33:31 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL Communication
References: <01BDBC6D.8BC2D2A0.stk sunherald.infi.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"iKQCB2.0.NZ.a7Vmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20988
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
> Awaiting a response,

A bit demanding are we?  8^)

Responses sometime take a while, as not every subscriber actively monitors this
list on a day to day basis.  Patience......   BTW, it's only a waste of time if
you never do anything with the knowledge gained from discussing a topic.  8^)



-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
         Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
         Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 10:03:34 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08533;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:59:43 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:59:43 -0700
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:00:13 -0700
Message-Id: <199807311700.KAA28884 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: RE: FTL Communication
Resent-Message-ID: <"e5RZk1.0.652.zVVmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20989
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


>> >1. A scientist in Russia named Dr. Vladimir I. Sekerin wrote an article
>> >titled "Gnosiological Peculiarities in the Interpretations of
>> Observations 
>> >(For example the Observations of Double Stars)". Basically, this article
>> >gives experimental results which show that the velocity of light coming
>> >from a moving source (binary stars) indicates a C velocity of C+V.
>> >2. B.G. Wallace, Spectros. Lett., 2, 361 (1969)
>> >3. B.G. Wallace, Found. Phys., 3, 381 (1973)
>> >Obviosly, light doesn't travel C+V on earth. Why would it act this way in
>> >interplanetary space?
>> 
>> Somebody want to actually respond to this, or am I wasting my time as I
>> did 
>> when this was posted to sci.physics.relativity? Is this too much of a 
>> "voodoo science" or something? When discussing FTL communication, I think 
>> something like this should definitely be looked into.
>> 
>> Awaiting a response,
>> Kyle R. Mcallister

The radar ranging information for Venus also indicated a v+c echo, according
to some researchers.  Others think the data is ok.  The problem is, you
really only know where the planet is via that energy, so to interpret it is
not easy.

That said, I am convinced from three years of study that aether is flowing
out of stars, and so where you have relative motions of the aether (ie
acceleration or deceleration of the medium of empty space) then light in the
medium will also experience the same acceleration and deceleration.  When we
seek this on earth, it was assumed that aether is the medium of empty space,
and particles are made of matter and so are different.

I am certain that what we call particles, are really resonances in and of
that very same aether.  And so the earth, is the wind blowing around the
solar system.  Thus, we should not expect an aether wind to be blowing past
the earth at all.

What this means is that the ocean of aether around our sun must be rotating
with the planets.  And if you think about that, then you will see that a
sound wave in that medium (ie light), will experience a deceleration or
acceleration as it moves radially due to the rotation being faster near the
inner planets than it is out here near earth.  So a v+c interpretation is
very logical to expect.

Also, if you look at the magnetosphere of the earth you will see it is swept
back by the aether wind blowing away from the sun.  

so, as for the stars, I would be interested in what had been found.  The two
stars should both be blowing aether outward, and then there should also be a
rotation of the aether around them.  But between them, the aether flow
should have a stagnation region since if you are blowing aether out of two
adjacent sources, mid way between them there is no flow of that medium.  

This flow, btw, is the reason that the solar wind accelerates, and when it
decelerates outside of galaxies, it is the reason for the strange rotation
profiles of galaxies and for our present belief in dark matter.  The dark
matter making up 90 to 99 percent of the universe's mass, is simply "empty
space" itself.

Later, Ross Tessien


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 10:27:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA19886;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:21:47 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:21:47 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980731131318.007da7a0 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:13:18 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Not DISINTERESTED!
In-Reply-To: <199807310529.WAA28893 smtp1.asu.edu>
References: <199807302146_MC2-54B2-7D2D compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"iyGoQ1.0.es4.hqVmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20990
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



  Perhaps it was a homonym:

   Plea:   from the Middle English  plaid
           from the Old French   plaid

  or,  consider:

     pled is also acceptable as equivalent to pleaded 
as cited in Webster's dictionary.
    
      Mitchell Swartz


>
>My pet peeves language-wise are the rampant  misuse of your for you're and
>TV news anchors that use "he pled guilty" instead of "he pleaded guilty".
>Certainly they should know better.
>
>--Lynn
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 11:16:39 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19614;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:15:07 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:15:07 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:00:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Question ...  Security in banks...
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980731135831.14596A-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"1ovXL.0.Oo4.ecWmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20991
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



	Dear Vo.,

	I have recently come up with method which prevents a type of 
Automatic Teller fraund....  but do not know anyone in the security 
business...
	This is a simple fix to a real problem.

	Any leads?   


					John

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 11:31:58 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01879;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:27:41 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:27:41 -0700
Message-Id: <35C20434.58A5D508 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:51:48 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: external(out of body) propulsion on air and on water
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"q1LQR.0.BT.RoWmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20992
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi All,

Who dont have a real knowledge on a subject feel free him self (me) to inventing. :-)

I just figured a method to avoid shock waves on supersonic movement, and  may reduce the air resistance on both subsonic and supersonic movement.

If you pull and accelate the surrounding air backward, you can both get a propulsion, reduce the air resistance and prevent the shock wave to devellop. this look like a high speed deplacement boat. 

May this is difficult by the technology we use but can be used on submarines by MHD method. 

It sounds good to me. What do you think?

Regards,
hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 12:04:10 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27148;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:01:57 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:01:57 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <01BDBC8A.5DF52EA0.stk sunherald.infi.net>
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: FTL Communication
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:51:48 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"AVKO12.0.2e6.YIXmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20993
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



-----Original Message-----
From:	Jim Ostrowski [SMTP:jimostr victor1.mscomm.com]
Sent:	Friday, July 31, 1998 10:59 AM
To:	'vortex-l eskimo.com'
Subject:	RE: FTL Communication



>As to C+V for binary stars etc I am not familair enough with
>astronometrical procedures to evaluate the above assertion
>posited intelligently . Perhaps you could explain how this was done?

I'm not sure exactly how this was done, as I have not been able to track 
down copies of the papers, but simply research it through an online 'book' 
that Bryan Wallace wrote. If you're interested, I will post the URL.

The main thing is: if C on the earth is equal to C no matter the velocity 
of the emitter, but in interplanetary space C is C+V(emitter) then there 
are two possibilities: 1. an error was made in the observations, or 2. 
Light acts physically different near the earth than in interplanetary 
space. I have no explanation, and was hoping some of you could speculate on 
what might cause this.

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 12:07:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08587;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:00:55 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:00:55 -0700
Message-ID: <01BDBC8B.56792D60.stk sunherald.infi.net>
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: FTL Communication
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:58:46 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"G97LA3.0.q52.bHXmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20994
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



-----Original Message-----
From:	Scudder, Henry J [SMTP:Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com]
Sent:	Friday, July 31, 1998 11:16 AM
To:	'vortex-l eskimo.com'
Subject:	RE: FTL Communication

>Kyle
>	Please give more detail about the experiments and their setup?
>Hank

I only am familiar with the venus radar measurements. This was the basic 
setup: A radar beam was shot at Venus, and reflected back to earth off of 
venus's surface. The distance to venus, and also it's velocity relative to 
the earth were known. The arrival time of the beam back to earth, assuming 
a constant speed of light, gave a deviation of 3 milliseconds from norm. 
The best fit for a constant speed of light and general relativistic 
effects, would deviate at most 10 microseconds. Conclusion: the speed of 
light returning from venus appears to contradict general relativity. The 
speed of the radar returning was calculated to be C+V. This does not agree 
with earthbound measurements.

Kyle R. Mcallister


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 12:40:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14572;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:36:04 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:36:04 -0700
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:36:35 -0700
Message-Id: <199807311936.MAA17329 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: RE: FTL Communication
Resent-Message-ID: <"GKw6k2.0.cZ3.aoXmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20995
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>
>I only am familiar with the venus radar measurements. This was the basic 
>setup: A radar beam was shot at Venus, and reflected back to earth off of 
>venus's surface. The distance to venus, and also it's velocity relative to 
>the earth were known. 

The problem is, if you don't know how fast light is moving out there, then
you really do NOT KNOW, where Venus is.  We say we know where it is, but
that is based on our assumption of the shape of the orbit, and that is based
on the assumption of position at various times, and then determination of
the orbit.  But that includes any error from a v+c component.

And then if you have an aether ocean universe, rather than "empty space" the
problem of learning what the velocity of the rotation in the aether is comes
into play and distorts things.  ie, we need to do the MM experiment out in
space reaching across different radii away from the sun so that you are in
different aether flow shear regimes.  But even then you will have the
problem of determining where your satelites actually are, since your
observation of their positions is plagued with the identical problem.

It is not easy.  And research so far assumes c to be constant.  So it is not
apparent how to proceed to nail this problem down.


The arrival time of the beam back to earth, assuming 
>a constant speed of light, gave a deviation of 3 milliseconds from norm. 
>The best fit for a constant speed of light and general relativistic 
>effects, would deviate at most 10 microseconds. Conclusion: the speed of 
>light returning from venus appears to contradict general relativity. The 
>speed of the radar returning was calculated to be C+V. This does not agree 
>with earthbound measurements.


Once upon a time I contacted the people who did the measurements, both for
and against the c+v determination.  It was not conclusive that things were
as wrong as stated above.  ie, if you interpret the data differently you can
get a c determination.

Not to pour water on this fire, but just to caution that because one person
said it was this way, does not mean that other people didn't think it was
all in order.  The problem is, you can't use our light observations or any
other observation to determine position accurately, and independently of the
radar beams.  So, when you say there was an error, that is assuming that the
planetary orbital trajectory matched what you thought it should be according
to some equations.  If the planet is actually in a different position, then
all bets are off and you will never know the difference from here using
light or radar.

I would be interested in any new evidence, but rumor had it that the raw
data was not available any more.  Of course, that is interesting if it is
so.  In any case, the guy who was claiming that c+v better matched the data
was complaining that he wasn't being given access to the raw data.  

I don't know what to think about that.  But I do know that I don't think
that c+v is the correct interpretation of the error assuming it is there.  I
think that you are seeing a difference in the rotational velocity of the
aether ocean we live in as a function of radius around the sun, a source of
aether and cosmological constant outward thrust driving the expansion of the
universe via emission of brand new, "empty space", or "quantum vacuum" if
you prefer.

Ross Tessien

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 13:44:19 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23812;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:37:25 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:37:25 -0700
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980731164256.00ca7b70 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:42:56 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: RE: FTL Communication
Cc: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
In-Reply-To: <01BDBC8B.56792D60.stk sunherald.infi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"F-bxD3.0.zp5.5iYmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20996
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 01:58 PM 7/31/98 -0500, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
>I only am familiar with the venus radar measurements. This was the basic 
>setup: A radar beam was shot at Venus, and reflected back to earth off of 
>venus's surface. The distance to venus, and also it's velocity relative to 
>the earth were known. The arrival time of the beam back to earth, assuming 
>a constant speed of light, gave a deviation of 3 milliseconds from norm. 

   Not to put a damper on the discussion, but just to point out how complex
it is to do these measurements...  In three milliseconds, light travels
about 900 kilometers (or 568 miles) allow for round trip, and the
difference is 450 kilometers.  Venus is about 12000 kilometers in diameter,
so the return will be smeared over eighty milliseconds.   You can
compensate for most of that, but if there is an equivalent of the layers in
Earth's ionsphere that is reflecting some or most of the signal, you have
to guess which layers and how high they are.  All in all a formidible 

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 13:55:51 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16350;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:52:36 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:52:36 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980731164958.00ca2100 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:49:58 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: RE: FTL Communication
In-Reply-To: <01BDBC8B.56792D60.stk sunherald.infi.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"0et641.0.O_3.HwYmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20997
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 01:58 PM 7/31/98 -0500, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
>I only am familiar with the venus radar measurements. This was the basic 
>setup: A radar beam was shot at Venus, and reflected back to earth off of 
>venus's surface. The distance to venus, and also it's velocity relative to 
>the earth were known. The arrival time of the beam back to earth, assuming 
>a constant speed of light, gave a deviation of 3 milliseconds from norm. 

   Not to put a damper on the discussion, but just to point out how complex
it is to do these measurements...  In three milliseconds, light travels
about 900 kilometers (or 568 miles) allow for round trip, and the
difference is 450 kilometers.  Venus is about 12000 kilometers in diameter,
so the return will be smeared over eighty milliseconds.   You can
compensate for most of that, but if there is an equivalent of the layers in
Earth's ionsphere that is reflecting some or most of the signal, you have
to guess which layers and how high they are.  All in all a formidible
challenge to get values that accurate.

   Now thing about the Venus Orbiter spacecraft.  Locating it to within one
hundred meters shouldn't be difficult, and it can act like a bent pipe for
doing this sort of measurement.  And anomalies there?  (Don't know, but
with the original Mars lander mission, the uncertainty in the distance to
Mars was reduced from 8000 kilometers to a fraction of that value.  The
recent mission should have gotten that down to meters.  That is the data to
look at.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 14:07:51 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19051;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:04:52 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:04:52 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <01BDBC9B.89268E00.stk sunherald.infi.net>
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: FTL Communication
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:54:43 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"fLaWU.0.Zf4.n5Zmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20998
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



-----Original Message-----
From:	Ross Tessien [SMTP:tessien oro.net]
Sent:	Friday, July 31, 1998 2:37 PM
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	RE: FTL Communication

>Once upon a time I contacted the people who did the measurements, both for
>and against the c+v determination.  It was not conclusive that things were
>as wrong as stated above.  ie, if you interpret the data differently you 
can
>get a c determination.

Like I said, I don't know what the results show. I just posted what Bryan 
Wallace claimed, and asked for insight. In truth, this whole thing looked 
strange at the beginning, and still looks strange.

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 15:38:30 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14022;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:35:52 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:35:52 -0700
X-Authentication-Warning: sh.diac.com: ekwall2 owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:31:42 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: external(out of body) propulsion on air and on water
In-Reply-To: <35C20434.58A5D508 verisoft.com.tr>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980731160259.28168F-100000 sh.diac.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"fEn4Q2.0.zQ3.8Ramr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/20999
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Hamdi Ucar wrote:
-snip-
I just figured a method to avoid shock waves on supersonic movement, and  may reduce the air resistance on both subsonic and supersonic movement.

If you pull and accelate the surrounding air backward, you can both get a propulsion, reduce the air resistance and prevent the shock wave to devellop. this look like a high speed deplacement boat. 

May this is difficult by the technology we use but can be used on submarines by MHD method. 

It sounds good to me. What do you think?

Regards,
hamdi ucar

---------------------
Hi hamdi, 

Blowing Pipe here, (but, "I didn't Inhale!":)~

 Speaking of submarines (and oceans etc..), the FTL conversations here
might consider your 'super fluiditic' idea, sounds like a squid pushing
itself in / through water!
I know the talks here have been going towards the spreadout space aether
but thinking the other way (guilty of reversal anything/me:)
Instead of thinner fluids, what about thicker for testing?

Questions that come to mind:

1. What is the 'actual' speed of the sound barrier in the ocean(s)
2. What is the fastest speed anything has obtained thus far? 
   (bullets, torpedoes, submarines, whales & Marlins included.)
3. What would happen when this 'final barrier' is broken? 
   Would the water "crack" open to cavitational shielding?
   Would the water turn to ICE? .. ahead or behind it?
      (water is funny like that:)  if ice.. then
      (will aether be 'funny' like that too? opposite i mean)
4. Is the 'final sound/* barrier' solid matter?


I was just thinking it would nice if it did crack to an envelope of some
type for the mass being traversed. One could then conceivable rocket
or fly through the center of a star and come out on the other side.
*cool!*

 -=se=-
ekwall2 diac.com
steve ( A Good week-end to all :) ekwall

Thought for today: "As long as men are free to ask what they must, free to
say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be
lost, and science can never regress." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer, American
physicist (1904-1967).


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 16:58:17 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA20924;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:53:06 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:53:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: H2 Glow discharge with a K electrode
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:50:56 -0400
Message-ID: <01bdbcde$0f384730$0c6cd626 george.varisys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"_MrB73.0.r65.VZbmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21000
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Vince,
I have added the new data point to both graphs. I will try
to get the graphs up on our web site on monday.
Runs with K  still show a significantly higher 
deg. C per watt value than the no K
runs with similar gap and power levels. It is
not clear to me that any pressure or gap gives a clear
advantage. It is also interesting to note that the with K
runs give a large spread in temperature values with
very little input power variation. 
-
Would love to visit and see the experiment, but the trip would
be hard to fit in right now.  I will certainly call if I'm going to
be in the area, thanks for the offer. My wife and I own a 
small business, (see www.varisys.com) and vacations tend to be
short and infrequent. The business does allow me to spend significant 
time inventing however and the engineering software and computers
that we sell are sometimes valuable tools for design and evaluation. 
Call me if you are going to be in NJ, we have
lots of room and there are usually interesting experiments
in progress.
Regards,
George Holz  - george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 17:52:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11629;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:49:12 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:49:12 -0700
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL Communication
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 00:49:50 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35ce654f.159596049 mail-hub>
References: <199807311936.MAA17329 Au.oro.net>
In-Reply-To: <199807311936.MAA17329 Au.oro.net>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"yFxwo.0.dr2.8Ocmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21001
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:36:35 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
[snip]
>The problem is, if you don't know how fast light is moving out there, then
>you really do NOT KNOW, where Venus is.  We say we know where it is, but
>that is based on our assumption of the shape of the orbit, and that is based
>on the assumption of position at various times, and then determination of
>the orbit.  But that includes any error from a v+c component.
[snip]
I could well be mistaken, but wouldn't the "+v" component be zero when
Venus passes in front of the sun (i.e. at right angles to our
direction of measurement)?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 18:14:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA04861;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:10:45 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:10:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Faster than Light update
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 00:29:08 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35c95fc5.158178114 mail-hub>
References: <199807311518.IAA05266 Au.oro.net>
In-Reply-To: <199807311518.IAA05266 Au.oro.net>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"jifMZ.0.tB1.Gicmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21003
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:18:40 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
[snip]
>This is because the pressure information must make a large path in order
>that the vortex advance a small distance.  ie, for a smoke ring the
>advancement might be at around a few feet per second, whereas the sound
>speed in air is about 1,100 ft/s.  There should be a comparable compression
>wavefront in aether that is much faster than c.
>
>But to cause, and detect it, will require completely different kinds of
>devices.  Our present devices all operate using the shear in the pressure
>gradients, whereas we are going to need direct compression devices.  HTSC
>devices will be required.
>
>Ross Tessien
>
>
>
Hi Ross,

Several people have suggested that CF may be related to the Mössbauer
effect (myself among them). However in order for this to be so, there
may need to be a rigid link between many nuclei, that transmits a
force at many times the speed of light. The compression wave you
mention above might fill the bill. If so, then the direct compression
devices to which you refer, may well be the instruments already in use
in Mössbauer effect measurements.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 18:16:35 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA04850;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:10:42 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:10:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL Communication
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 00:41:51 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35cd636b.159111959 mail-hub>
References: <199807311700.KAA28884 Au.oro.net>
In-Reply-To: <199807311700.KAA28884 Au.oro.net>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"FyH281.0.fB1.Eicmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21002
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:00:13 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
[snip]
>Also, if you look at the magnetosphere of the earth you will see it is swept
>back by the aether wind blowing away from the sun.  

This makes me wonder why the Earth itself isn't swept away by the same
wind.
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 20:14:18 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29007;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:12:53 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:12:53 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:05:15 -0700
Message-Id: <199808010305.UAA03822 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: FTL Communication
Resent-Message-ID: <"8sDrN1.0.757.oUemr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21004
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:36:35 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
>[snip]
>>The problem is, if you don't know how fast light is moving out there, then
>>you really do NOT KNOW, where Venus is.  We say we know where it is, but
>>that is based on our assumption of the shape of the orbit, and that is based
>>on the assumption of position at various times, and then determination of
>>the orbit.  But that includes any error from a v+c component.
>[snip]
>I could well be mistaken, but wouldn't the "+v" component be zero when
>Venus passes in front of the sun (i.e. at right angles to our
>direction of measurement)?
>
>

Yes.  but that is true both if it is +v, or if it is because the aether is
rotating around the sun with the planets.  In both cases, the component
moving with the planet is moving along the line of the planet motion.

There is one thing about the aether motion that is different than the +v
idea, though.  This is because the sun is a source of aether flowing out due
to mass to energy conversion, which emits aether.  The flow leads to a
helical path for the aether motion, whereas the +v component if it is due
solely to planetary motion should be strictly zero at that orientation.  the
helix angle of the aether flowing out of the solar system would lead to a
difference between the apparent velocities of approach vs recession of Venus.

But personally, I think that this is going to be identified via resonant
techniques, where we identify the resonances of planets, ergo, Earth.  For
example, the sun has it's major acoustic resonant power at the five minute
period.  And earth rings incessently with a period of, yes, five minutes.
There are a lot of modes, so unless the Geo physicists can separate out a
spectral finger print that matches the solar finger print from SOI and GONG,
this is just circumstantial.

Time will tell.

Ross Tessien

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 20:17:03 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18847;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:13:36 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:13:36 -0700
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:14:08 -0700
Message-Id: <199808010314.UAA04937 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: FTL Communication
Resent-Message-ID: <"HBbtI2.0.Lc4.VVemr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21005
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:00:13 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
>[snip]
>>Also, if you look at the magnetosphere of the earth you will see it is swept
>>back by the aether wind blowing away from the sun.  
>
>This makes me wonder why the Earth itself isn't swept away by the same
>wind.

Excellent question.  I don't have time to go into it in detail, but there is
evidence that heavier nuclei interact with aether flow differently,
slightly, than do lighter nuclei.  See about the helium vs H shadow due to
the solar motion through the Milky Way interstellar gases.

You can imagine that the earth simply has a greater rate of falling toward
the sun than you expected without this knowledge.

But basically, the area of the earth, a high density region of aether
vortices, sort of like a fog bank, has reduced the amount of aether per
nucleon due to the aggregation of the matter.

A rule to use is, All exothermic reactions are aether emissive.  Meaning,
that if you get work out of something, then aether was emitted from it some
how.  For nuclei in a gravitational potential, you can imagine that they are
like coupled oscillators, and that they are rocking off of each others
momentum a bit.  Thus, they cannot confine as much aether in the resonant
build up in aether density of their vortices.  this is hard to explain in
words as it is very geometric.  

Another simplistic way to think of it is that the atoms in the center of the
earth are 'shielded' from the wave energy of deep space, and so they cannot
confine as much aether as a similar atom in deep space associated with the
solar wind.

And if that doesn't do it for you, then just revert to the Heisenberg
uncertainty principle and consider that the aether is flowing outward, and
more nuclei coupled together gravitationally or in a molecular arrangement
lead to a greater stability against that flow via coupling to the spacetime
acoustic nodes which are NOT, blowing away.

You can have acoustic nodes that are stationary in a wind tunnel, even
though the air is blowing down the length of the tunnel.  The acoustic nodes
are like spacetime nodes, whereas the motion of the air is like the aether
flow.  Individual particles are more susceptable to bouncing around with the
flow, whereas large groups of particles all coupled together tend to cancel
out that randomness and lead to a more stable path.

You have to get away from thinking of rocks moving through space, and think
instead of wavefronts like smoke rings or solitons, precessing through an
ocean of aether.  Then it eventually becomes clear that you can have
relative flow of the medium, vs the wavefronts in that medium.

Later, Ross Tessien


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 20:34:55 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22049;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:31:42 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:31:42 -0700
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:25:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
cc: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject:   #1 ...In general .....RE: FTL Communication
In-Reply-To: <01BDBC6D.8BC2D2A0.stk sunherald.infi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980731231701.4540C-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"dLh7e1.0.JO5.Smemr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21006
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Kyle and Vo.,

	This discussion ... of light and time and gravity ... and a bunch 
of other general stuff ... has been as some or many might know, both on 
and off line.... near and dear to my heart.   So much so .. it has broken 
my back, in a real way.

	 I now comment, on aspects .... bunches of stuff may or may not 
be chopped out.

	 I write from real world stuff I have seen or done...... and also
from other persons' writings, most... the large most... peer reviewed or 
patented... not that that ... per se... gives anything any weight....

	And....


	 I am going to 'whip through' a lot of posts....so for give the 
typos... please...


	starting with 1 a

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 20:41:26 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04307;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:40:09 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:40:09 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:00:00 -0700
Message-Id: <199808010300.UAA03260 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Faster than Light update
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id UAA04282
Resent-Message-ID: <"CnyIs2.0.D31.Muemr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21007
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


>Hi Ross,
>
>Several people have suggested that CF may be related to the Mössbauer
>effect (myself among them). However in order for this to be so, there
>may need to be a rigid link between many nuclei, that transmits a
>force at many times the speed of light. The compression wave you
>mention above might fill the bill. If so, then the direct compression
>devices to which you refer, may well be the instruments already in use
>in Mössbauer effect measurements.
>
>
>Regards,
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

I haven't studied that effect carefully, in an attempt to apply my models to
it, yet.  What I can say, is that I think that people will think they are
observing some sort of inertial phenomena, rather than some sort of electric
phenomena, when they finally do observe FTL communication via compression
waves.  Also, I think that the first devices will be resonant devices.  This
is because via resonance, you can amplify signals to detectable levels.  The
phenomena I am talking about is in essence, a gravitational wave in a sense.
But this is not the normal definition of gravitational wave in today's GR,
so don't take this statement very far at all.

I am supposed to receive funding in a few weeks to begin research on a new
approach to CF.  If this comes through (after 3 years), then I may be able
to sneak a check to see if I can cause an FTL signal transmission via aether
compression wavefronts.  Most likely I won't be able to do that, due to lack
of funds and the need to focus on generating power from the devices via
induced nuclear fission reactions, but we will see.

Later, Ross Tessien




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 20:45:43 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05239;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:44:44 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:44:44 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:30:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
cc: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: #1 a ....RE: FTL Communication
In-Reply-To: <01BDBC6D.8BC2D2A0.stk sunherald.infi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980731232513.4540D-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"EQnSe.0.mH1.gyemr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21008
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:


	> Kyle R. Mcallister
> 
> 	a]  FTL... or Super Lumal  ... (SL) 
	demonstable effects are real

	b] will replicate for food

	c] can be simple.... or all 'twisted mister'.....

	d] simple is REALLY simple.....and does not require going any 
farther than around the block....or across the room.


	#1 FTL .... "" Faster than light """

	# 2 FTL ... ? what ?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 20:48:15 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25162;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:45:01 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:45:01 -0700
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:38:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>,
        Jorg Ostrowski <ash freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Subject: #2 a ....RE: FTL Communication
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980731084353.2065A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980731233031.4540E-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"1pVEo1.0.396.zyemr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21009
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


> > >Obviosly, light doesn't travel C+V on earth. Why would it act this way in
> > >interplanetary space?

	Any discussion I have ... is "in the room" stuff...

	 I may well chop out BUNCHES of stuff...

	aa} I am not math guy
	bb} I cannot live, nor have I EVER been in outer space...

	MORE

> > 
> > Somebody want to actually respond to this, or am I wasting my time as I did 
> > when thi
> > "voodoo science" 


	 YO VOODOO!


	 Not a joke....


or something? When discussing FTL communication, I think 
> > something like this should definitely be looked into.


> posited intelligently . Perhaps you could explain how this was done?
> 
> Jim
> 
> 


	In my comments.... if I have not seen it ''' in room''' I do not 
call it yea or nay....

	s
I have seen an recorded some NEAT non eart stuff... and built NEAT non 
earth and internal and inter earth stuff....  and this I may comment on....

	BUT 'some other body send and-or extrapolating WL in outer 
space... 

	I think I would rather have my hands on what I seen...

	And for Kyle and all...

	There has been a replication of the German TV gravity stuff... by 
a German... who we all hope will be here in YS in Aug 6 ... and I further 
hope I have a place!!!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 20:52:38 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25639;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:48:35 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:48:35 -0700
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:42:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: steck antioch-college.edu, "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk@sunherald.infi.net>
Subject: 3a ...Re: FTL Communication
In-Reply-To: <35C1F1DB.DC49AF22 css.mot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980731233856.4540F-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"phLO51.0.VG6.I0fmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21010
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	 BAR....

	 My older brother used to say "BAR"  Big as Real"


	 ::: Kyle... 

	 I know you are excited....!

	AND there are a bunch of people hoping you... or maybe me... or 
Greg... or HUGO!!! will get it done....

  Comments...

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, John Steck wrote:

> Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
> > Awaiting a response,
> 
> A bit demanding are we?  8^)
> 
> Responses sometime take a while, as not every subscriber actively monitors this
> list on a day to day basis.  Patience...... 



>        John E. Steck
>          Senior Mechanical Engineer
>            Rapid Tooling Applications
> 
>        Motorola Consumer Electronics
>          Personal Communications Sector
>            Libertyville, IL
>     _______________________________________
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 20:54:12 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25888;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:50:21 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:50:21 -0700
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:43:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: # 4a R...E: FTL Communication
In-Reply-To: <199807311700.KAA28884 Au.oro.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980731234216.4540G-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"wFPBM1.0.OK6.z1fmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21011
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

y

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Ross Tessien wrote:
> The radar ranging information for Venus also indicated a v+c echo, according
> to some researchers.  Others think the data is ok.  The problem is,


%%%%%%   opinion %%%%

	 This ain't onna bench!!!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 20:54:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA26012;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:51:39 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:51:39 -0700
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:45:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: 4 or 5 a ...RE: FTL Communication
In-Reply-To: <01BDBC8A.5DF52EA0.stk sunherald.infi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980731234414.4540H-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"0CM7d.0.FM6.A3fmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21012
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

> From:	Jim Ostrowski [SMTP:jimostr victor1.mscomm.com]

	 Jim be cool...


		Be on the bench....

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 20:57:52 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27399;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:55:24 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:55:24 -0700
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:48:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: 6 A ....RE: FTL Communication
In-Reply-To: <199807311936.MAA17329 Au.oro.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980731234618.4540J-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"DqRHG3.0.-h6.h6fmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21013
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

 6 a

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Ross Tessien wrote:
> The problem is, if you don't know how fast light is moving out there, then
> you really do NOT KNOW, where Venus is.  We say we know where it is, but


	BENCH..




=========================
> It is not easy.  And research so far assumes c to be constant.  So it is not
> apparent how to proceed to nail this problem down.

	BENCH> 
> 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Once upon a time I contacted the people who did the measurements, both for
> and against the c+v determination.  It was not conclusive that things were
> as wrong as stated above.  ie, if you interpret the data differently you can
> get a c determination.
> I don't know what to think about that.


....  But I do know that I don't think
> that c+v is the correct interpretation of the error assuming it is there.
	BENCH

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 20:58:56 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27796;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:56:17 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:56:17 -0700
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:49:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: 7 a ....RE: FTL Communication
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980731164256.00ca7b70 spectre.mitre.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980731234905.4540K-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"GD3uL.0.9o6.W7fmr" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21014
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


> >I only am familiar with the venus radar measurements. This was the basic 
>    Not to put a damper on the discussion, but just to point out how complex
> to guess which layers and how high they are.  All in all a formidible 
> 
>                                         Robert I. Eachus


	BENCH> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 21:02:14 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08562;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:00:41 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:00:41 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:46:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: 5 a...  Bench or NO!!!RE: FTL Communication
In-Reply-To: <01BDBC8B.56792D60.stk sunherald.infi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980731234530.4540I-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"6k9Vl.0.f52.cBfmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21015
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


> >Kyle
> >	Please give more detail about the experiments and their setup?
> >Hank
> 
> I only am familiar with the venus radar measurements. This was the basic 
> with earthbound measurements.
> 
> Kyle R. Mcallister
> 


	SEE!> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 21:11:33 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10740;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:10:02 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:10:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Faster than Light update
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 04:02:34 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35c691b4.170962851 mail-hub>
References: <199808010300.UAA03260 Au.oro.net>
In-Reply-To: <199808010300.UAA03260 Au.oro.net>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"WFbdy1.0.jd2.NKfmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21016
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:00:00 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
[snip]
>I am supposed to receive funding in a few weeks to begin research on a new
>approach to CF.  If this comes through (after 3 years), then I may be able
>to sneak a check to see if I can cause an FTL signal transmission via aether
>compression wavefronts.  Most likely I won't be able to do that, due to lack
>of funds and the need to focus on generating power from the devices via
>induced nuclear fission reactions, but we will see.
[snip]
We can already do induced nuclear fission ;). The problem is doing it
without creating free neutrons &/or radioactive nuclei. In this
regard, it might be better to concentrate on trying to fission the
lightest element you can get away with.
As I see it, this would lead to the cleanest possible reaction.
Especially if the fission is induced by fusion of a proton with the
nucleus first, as this results in a slight "evening up" of the
proton-neutron ratio, so that the resulting fission should on average
produce less free neutrons.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 21:17:57 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12346;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:16:34 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:16:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: #2 a ....RE: FTL Communication
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 04:08:58 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35c794ac.171723025 mail-hub>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980731233031.4540E-100000 college>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980731233031.4540E-100000 college>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"2GHCo.0.d03.SQfmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21017
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:38:33 -0400 (EDT), John Schnurer wrote:
[snip]
>	There has been a replication of the German TV gravity stuff... by 
>a German... who we all hope will be here in YS in Aug 6 ... and I further 
>hope I have a place!!!
[snip]
Hi John,

What happens Aug 6?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 22:25:48 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20236;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:23:27 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:23:27 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:20:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 4 or 5 a ...RE: FTL Communication
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980731234414.4540H-100000 college>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980731221239.19396A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"GwVvp1.0.1y4.CPgmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21018
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, John Schnurer wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
> 
> > From:	Jim Ostrowski [SMTP:jimostr victor1.mscomm.com]
> 
> 	 Jim be cool...
> 

Ok.

> 
> 		Be on the bench....
> 
> 

Are you saying that you want details of experimental setups that one can
try in order to prove (or disprove) something ? 

Jim O.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I do not care to debate those to whom I would perform a service by
disposessing them of their illusions" - me





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 22:54:27 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24016;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:53:34 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:53:34 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 01:38:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: To be clear....Re: 4 or 5 a ...RE: FTL Communication
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.980731221239.19396A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980801013544.7805A-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"usUBd2.0.At5.Rrgmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21019
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> 
> 
> On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> > 
> > On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
> > 
> > > From:	Jim Ostrowski [SMTP:jimostr victor1.mscomm.com]
> > 
> > 	 Jim be cool...


	Meaning :

	You, as much as any, want to see the work done close to hand, as 
opposed to a cosmologist observing 'xxx' and extrapolating a conclusion.  

	Both have mertit, but for me, I want the thing on the bench... 
where I can see it!


				J



> > 
> 
> Ok.
> 
> > 
> > 		Be on the bench....
> > 
> > 
> 
> Are you saying that you want details of experimental setups that one can
> try in order to prove (or disprove) something ? 
> 

	Yes... rather than cosmologically derived conclusions...

	Just how I am...

> Jim O.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> "I do not care to debate those to whom I would perform a service by
> disposessing them of their illusions" - me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 31 23:00:46 1998
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA25175;
	Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:58:54 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:58:54 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 01:44:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
cc: "'John Schnurer'" <herman antioch-college.edu>,
        Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: FTL Communication
In-Reply-To: <01BDBCD9.8F585D60.stk sunherald.infi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980801013916.7805B-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"yl5j92.0.B96.Qwgmr" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/21020
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

y

	see notes...

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	John Schnurer [SMTP:herman antioch-college.edu]
> Sent:	Friday, July 31, 1998 10:51 PM
> To:	Kyle R. Mcallister
> Subject:	RE: FTL Communication
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >	Man ... you got to go to the bench....
> 
> ??? I don't understand. I'm not good with figures of speech.
> 

	I want to see stuff in front of me.... see recent vortex post on 
cosmology...
	

> As for FTL signalling...I wonder how we might accompish this.

	Been done...

 Obviously, 
> photonic systems (lasers,


 radio waves)

	Radio waves work fine.... and as a more-than-C phase propagation ...

 don't work. But perhaps there is 
> some way to make them travel faster?


	They don't HAVE to!  One the path is there the change in phase 
exceeds... or can exceed C.

 Or perhaps figure out some novel way 
> of decreasing the electric permitivity and magnetic permeability of the 
> vacuum. Or the spooky scalar waves?

 The thing that gets me is this: there 
> are leads to investigate...yet the investigation hasn't been done. I guess 
> that's our job.

	Been done... in the texts...
> 
> Personally, I'd like an experiment I can do in my lab...not something I 
> have to go to Arecibo observatory for and reflect radar off of other 
> planets;)
> 
> Kyle R. Mcallister
> 

	You can ....

	 Get he ARRL [American Radio Realy League].. or "ham" Radio 
Amateur's Hand book... and theer antenna handbook....


	FIND a ham operator that likes helical antennas!