From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 08:38:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA09918 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:15:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA09812 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:15:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id IAA14918; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:15:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:15:00 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: two papers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:28:49 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: Mihai JALOBEANU To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: two papers Dear Dieter et all, The very important journal "Fusion Technology" is indexed only in the Engineering Edition of Current Contents and not in Phys. Chem. Earth Sciences edition. I am especially interested in the Jorne paper because it has tried to reproduce the results of E-Quest and these show the highest contribution of nuclear reactions to the excess heat. We do not have the results of the tests of the Patterson Cell, however if we consider the WSJ paper as relevant, Reding "has now dropped the cold fusion claim and believe it is something entirely different" To be or not to be nuclear, or to be only in part" this is the question. Peter Gluck From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 08:45:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA11550 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:20:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA11456 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:20:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id IAA15306; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:18:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:18:49 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: two p Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L-OWNER@ESKIMO.COM Subject: Re: vtx: two p > Yes, as far as I am concerned. Thanks, Peter. I just looked through a > great heap of CC but couldn't find one with FT in it, I must go and check > again. I never could find the entry for that Nov-95 issue and was lucky > to get a tip-off for it. > > Does anyone in this list remember the email address of George Miley, FT's > Editor? I want to ask him about CNF content in FT, being afraid I've been > missing some. I eventually catch up when the stuff appears in Chem. > Abstr. and Phys. Abstr, but that takes a while. > > -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk Deter try Dr. George Miley Fusion Studies Lab 100 NEL South Goodwin Urbana Ill 61801-2984 217-333-3772 I know his home E-mail address but I don't believe he wants it given out. Call the fusion studies lab and they will give you his work email address. Can anyone fax me a copy of the wall st journal article. It's not in my version of the journal? 412-235-4511 <--my fax I am going up to the University of Pitt today to lecture to the students today on ZPE and cold fusion. I invited representatives of several companies in the region to hear my lecture. Toole would not like this. As far as the people here know its students only and that I am talking about opportunities in engineering. I am pushing very hard to get something started. I have a good show planned. Coming representatives from Concurrent Technologies office Congressman Jack Murthia's office (maybe if the rep can make it) President of Apparatus Engineering Ray Frank Ron Madison a friend of the the president of GPU Jim Leva H F Lenz co. Professors Students I may get into big trouble over this one. Afterwards we are going to out to have coffee and talk. I may get into big trouble over this one. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 11:52:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA04308 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA04193 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:20:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-183.austin.eden.com (net-1-183.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.183]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id NAA28168 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 13:20:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 13:20:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602011920.NAA28168@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: CETI cell anode construction X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Dieter sez: >This is mumbo jumbo. The Pt would be the anode, and the better access to it >you give the current, the better you are off. Putting a bed of >non-conducting beads in the way would only increase the cell voltage. Hold on a minute...if you have nothing "in the way" then the anode screen can touch the bed of coated beads which would short out the cell. The cell consists of (from the bottom up): 1. Pt screen (cathode) connected to a wire leading outside. 2. a bed of metal-coated beads 3. some kind of separator 4. Pt screen (anode) connected to a 2nd wire leading outside. Are you saying we should put in a real thin separator for minimum cell voltage...which would presumably mean minimum I^2*R wasted power? Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 13:06:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA28017 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:28:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA27916 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:27:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.71] ([204.57.193.71]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA23062 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:23:04 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:29:29 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: vtx: Cell Design Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks to Scott Little and whoever else is involved for a source of cheap beads for experimental purposes! My main interest in this is to come up with a small cheap cell that students and others can experiment with. Cheap beads represents a big step in that direction. The following are some thoughts offered for comment and improvement toward the goal of a sufficiently accurate cell for about $200. To avoid many of the pitfalls and debate about flowing electrolyte, it would be useful to avoid the use of the electrolyte for calorimitry. This would avoid all those nasty questions about clogged apparautus, heat pump effects, specific heat, etc. The smaller the cell, the lower the cost. Hopefully a cell can be designed using 1 cc of beads or less. Hopefully the cell can fit into one (or two stacked, one upside down) standard vacuum thermos bottle replacement inserts you can cheaply buy many places. I would like to drive the electrolyte with a pump driven by a small DC motor integrated with the cell. The motor/pump can then fit into the thermous bottle and serve double duty as a calibration heater. The anode needs to be made of something cheaper than Pt. I was thinking about hammering out some old gold jewelry into an electrode, but that would not work for a student/demonstration kit. Possibly a gold plated silver wire would work, or maybe just silver? Just playing around I've noticed that the size of the anode area does not seem to make much difference in resistance if the conductivity of the electrolyte is high. Unfortunately, this is in conflict with the next goal, reducing electrolyte cost and corrosiveness. Tha cost and corrosiveness of the electrolyte could be reduced by reducing the concentration. Some cells have been repoted o/u run with no electrolyte, i.e. with distilled water. The disadvantage of this is a higher voltage to load the cathode at a given current. However, once loading occurs, a high current does not appear essential to maintain loading. Additionally, I think a higher resistance electrolyte might assist in maintaining a uniform effect throughout the beads, similar to the way a high resistance electrolyte maintains a distributed charge on the plates of a capacitor. Cost of the cell might be increased by the need for a multiple voltage power supply, or an additional power supplies. Lithium should be ruled in or out as a must for use in the electrolyte. Since I have some in the house, and it is so generic and cheap, I was thinking about trying Epsom Salt, i.e. MgSO4*7H2O. I believe, if memory serves me, there has been some success with potassium hydroxide and potassium sulfate, with transmutations of the K to Ca observed. Calorimitry is a big issue with regard to cost. One possibility that occured to me is using foam coated copper rods of various diameters, inserted through a closed cell foam lid, to transfer heat out of the calorimitry cell (thermos) with a fixed thermal resistance. Each rod would have copper heat transfer areas at each end exposed, i.e. with no insulation. The thermos would be filled with a water bath. The CF cell would be watertight, with a very small diameter plastic tube vent to the outside to relieve gass pressure. Each rod's conductivity could be determined via a calibration procedure using the cell. An experiment would be set up initially with a rod with sufficient thermal conductivity to easily support a null result experiment. Should a cell start to overheat, additional rods could be added, or the electrolysis current cut back. The rods could be bent so the outside conductive exposed ends could be placed into a constant temperature ice water bath outside the cell. This way only a single temperature, the calorimitry cell water bath temperature, need be recorded. Any ideas for a cheap chart recorder? Any comments or ideas would be much appreciated. Thanks. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 15:12:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA15349 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 14:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA15193 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 14:41:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-183.austin.eden.com (net-1-106.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.106]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id QAA13855 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 16:40:55 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 16:40:55 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602012240.QAA13855@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Cell Design X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >The smaller the cell, the lower the cost. Hopefully a cell can be designed >using 1 cc of beads or less. With a 12mm ID tube, a 1cc load of beads would make a bed .9cm deep...seems good enough. >I would like to drive the electrolyte with a pump driven by a small DC >motor integrated with the cell. Cole-Parmer offers a little 12VDC powered gear pump for $50. It will run on as little as 1.5 volts. It delivers a high flowrate by CETI standards, however. At 1.5 volts, it's 150ml/min. >The anode needs to be made of something cheaper than Pt. I think it might be possible to use Ti... I've also considered using the gold plated screens that are employed in the permanent coffee filters that one can buy. >The cost and corrosiveness of the electrolyte could be reduced by reducing >the concentration. Li2SO4 is cheap...and it just may require the 1M concentration...we shall see, eh? Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 20:03:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA03032 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 19:37:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA02900 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 19:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.134.0.173] (ppp63.swcp.com [204.134.0.173]) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA20156; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:33:33 -0700 X-Sender: rollo@swcp.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:33:42 -0700 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: rollo@artvark.com (Rollo Silver) Subject: Re: vtx: re: zpe-t Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Suppose such an experiment could be supported by a wire or fiber with a >length of 100 m. We would then have a pendulum which could be used to >accurately determine change of mass... I thought pendulum period is essentially determined only by length, and is insensitive to both mass of the weight and amplitude of vibration (for small amplitudes). Rollo Silver | e-mail: rollo@artvark.com | Artvark | Home page: http://www.artvark.com/artvark/ | PO Box 219 | Voice: 505-586-0197 | San Cristobal, NM 87564 USA | Compuserve 71174,1453 | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 20:44:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA19811 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:27:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from julia.math.ucla.edu (root@julia.math.ucla.edu [128.97.4.254]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA19738 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:27:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from boole.math.ucla.edu by julia.math.ucla.edu (Sendmail 4.1/1.13) id AA17900; Thu, 1 Feb 96 20:26:53 PST Received: by boole.math.ucla.edu (Sendmail 4.1/1.13) id AA24426; Thu, 1 Feb 96 20:26:53 PST Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 20:26:53 PST From: Barry Merriman Message-Id: <9602020426.AA24426@boole.math.ucla.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: re: zpe-t Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Suppose such an experiment could be supported by a wire or fiber with a >length of 100 m. We would then have a pendulum which could be used to >accurately determine change of mass... They make an instrument for precision mass determinations---its called a balance :-). From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 21:12:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA29004 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:53:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA28862 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:53:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id UAA13901; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:52:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:52:05 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: CETI cell anode construction Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: lee02016@acad.suffolk.edu Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 22:56:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: vtx: CETI cell anode construction To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Would this electrochemical technique allow me to deposit a film of copper or tin on a semiconductor? What materials would I need? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 00:15:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA26270 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:03:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA25525 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:00:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.70] ([204.57.193.70]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA26868 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 22:58:20 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 23:04:34 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: re: zpe-t Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>Suppose such an experiment could be supported by a wire or fiber with a >>length of 100 m. We would then have a pendulum which could be used to >>accurately determine change of mass... > >I thought pendulum period is essentially determined only by length, and is >insensitive to both mass of the weight and amplitude of vibration (for >small amplitudes). > >Rollo Silver | e-mail: rollo@artvark.com | >Artvark | Home page: http://www.artvark.com/artvark/ | >PO Box 219 | Voice: 505-586-0197 | >San Cristobal, NM 87564 USA | Compuserve 71174,1453 | >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Of course, you are absolutely right! What was I thinking? Actually, when I made that blunder I was first thinking about using a ballistic pendulum technique, but there the problem is getting an accurate perturbing force. Oh well, 30 years is a long time, isn't it? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 00:21:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA27506 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA27445 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:07:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.70] ([204.57.193.70]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA26906 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 23:05:43 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 23:11:57 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: vtx: Address for Check to Bill Beaty Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Could someone please re-post the address to mail the donations to Bill Beaty for the vortex contribution? I must have deleted it. Was the suggested amount $10 or $15? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 1 22:21:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA28451 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:52:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA28283 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:51:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id UAA13820; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:50:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:50:21 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: re: your mail Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:59:57 -0500 From: "Robert I. Eachus" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Re: your mail Dieter Britz said: > Well, this oxide layer is pretty dense and might block H2. H2 is a good > reducing agent, though, but not so good at room temp.; so maybe you'd > have to heat the degreased bit of Al in a furnace under H2, to reduce the > oxide layer, and then make sure that oxygen doesn't get at it before you > apply the room temp. hydrogen. That's just a guess, I know next to > nothing about this. I do remember reading that some early gas loading > experiments with Ti are now thought not to have loaded the Ti much at > all, because of an oxide layer. It has been a long time, but I still remember some spectacular failures trying to get a clean unoxidized Al surface. We eventually started working with Al plated on copper (with an intermediate nickel layer). The surface chemistry was the same, but when things got out of control there was less to burn. First, I forget whether clean Al is officially hypergolic in air or if it has to be warm. But with the amount of H2 you have on the surface, letting air get to it will create a nice fire, even if you think the metal is cool, and you have been holding a good vacuum overnight. (You can passivate the Al surface with nitrogen, but that won't help here.) Second, if you do get burning Aluminum, remember that it is at least as bad as Magnesium, but hotter. (If you think I am kidding, remember the thermite reaction. Aluminum and Iron Oxide, the aluminum grabs the oxygen from the Fe2O3, and you use magnesium to light it.) Aluminum can burn under water, in nitrogen, in CO2 -- you get the picture. Have plenty of sand handy in buckets, if for nothing else, for dropping hot metal in. (I have watched a burning aluminum rod weighing two ounces melt its way halfway down a bucket of sand.) One last comment, the reaction between NaOH, water, and Aluminum is one of the "best" sources of hydrogen, but it is another violent reaction if it gets out of control. (If you don't believe me, put some old style Draino in a ceramic cup and add about the same volume of water. Keep that sand handy...) So don't use an alkali metal salt with an aluminum electrode, and certainly don't use alkali bases. Don't let me scare you off, but this is not kitchen chemistry--it can be much too hard on the floor. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 00:03:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA22045 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 23:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA22013 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 23:48:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA21540; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 08:48:44 +0100 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 08:48:43 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: CETI cell anode construction In-Reply-To: <199602011920.NAA28168@natashya.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, Scott Little wrote: > Dieter sez: > > >This is mumbo jumbo. The Pt would be the anode, and the better access to it > >you give the current, the better you are off. Putting a bed of > >non-conducting beads in the way would only increase the cell voltage. > > Hold on a minute...if you have nothing "in the way" then the anode screen > can touch the bed of coated beads which would short out the cell. Well, of course therre must be a physical barrier there but it need not be a dense heap of beads giving you iR problems. As you later say, just a thin insulating screen is enough. > The cell consists of (from the bottom up): > > 1. Pt screen (cathode) connected to a wire leading outside. > 2. a bed of metal-coated beads > 3. some kind of separator > 4. Pt screen (anode) connected to a 2nd wire leading outside. This looks sensible, especially no. 3 > > Are you saying we should put in a real thin separator for minimum cell > voltage...which would presumably mean minimum I^2*R wasted power? Yes. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 00:18:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA26866 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:05:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA26835 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:05:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.70] ([204.57.193.70]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA26886 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 23:03:39 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 23:09:53 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: re: zpe-t Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>Suppose such an experiment could be supported by a wire or fiber with a >>length of 100 m. We would then have a pendulum which could be used to >>accurately determine change of mass... > >They make an instrument for precision mass determinations---its >called a balance :-). You are so right. And you could hang the control on the other end of the balance. I don't know anything about balances. I wonder if a balance could be built that could detect a 1 mg change in a 100 kg mass, and work for 3 years without distorting? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 01:50:32 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id BAA17565 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 01:35:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from kremvax.demos.su (fox@kremvax.demos.su [194.87.0.20]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA17338 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 01:34:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by kremvax.demos.su (8.6.12/D) from root@localhost id MAA00417; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 12:33:15 +0300 Received: by madi.msk.su (dMail for DOS v1.23, 15Jun94); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 18:32:36 +0300 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, 73163.3300@compuserve.com References: <9602020426.AA24426@boole.math.ucla.edu> Message-Id: Organization: Moscow Automobile-Road Institute Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 18:32:36 +0300 (MSK) From: "PHYSICS" X-Mailer: dMail [Demos Mail for DOS v1.23] Subject: Re: vtx: re: zpe-t Lines: 68 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: INTERNET:73163.3300@COMPUSERVE.COM To:Dr.Oleg Finodeyev From:physics@madi.msk.su, Lev Sapogin Subject: some curioisity remarks Dear Oleg, My friend kindly mailed me a report from the London Financial Times. FT Jan 23, P14. "Magnet against physics" Three British engineers are claiming to have invented a new form of power generation which uses a magnet to turn a small amount of power into a much larger one. The inventors are calling the machine the Mylenium Motor, because they believe that by the turn of the century - the millennium - it will be capable of running a vehicle or even a power station. They are not divulging details of how it works because they have yet to have patents registered, apart from in the UK. But Joe Marquis, one of the inventors, says a prototype has been built powered by a 12-volt battery producing five amps of current. "We have found a way to get the magnet to turn the central core of the motor, which drives two alternators. These each produce 50 or 60 amps. It is a quirk, it goes against physics," says Marquis, a marine engi- neer who developed the motor with chemical engineer Brian HAyes and electrical engineer Philip Powell. [one must assume here that they me- an 12V vehicle alternators, they are claiming 10:1 - 12:1]. Experts are sceptical. "You can't go against physics," says Rex HAr- ris, a professor at the School of Metallurgy and MAterials, Birmingham university. "It is a nonsense to say you can get more energy out than you are putting in." However, according to Harris, permanent magnets are accounting for a growing percentage of electric motors because they can make motors mo- re efficient. In conventional electric motors, electromagnetism is created [sic] by by passing current through a conductor wound into a coil. Marquis says he and his fellow inventors are not "jumping up and down", but he does believe their new motor could have a "massive im- pact". [no comment] A box the size of two television sets could run a house, he says, and the motor could be scaled up or run in series, or scaled down to pro- duce a micro-engine. The initial power source could come from the ma- ins, via a resistor. [end] My friend also sends me a report on 'black LEDs' - shades of the Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy. Defence Research Agency at Malvern have made a lamp which shines black, using GaAs technology. Much talk of making cloaking devices! It 'defies Kirchoff's Law' by absorbing IR without emitting it. That's from one magazine, there is more in Elect- ronic Times, 25 January. Cheers Lev 2 February 1996 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 06:40:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA06520 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 06:12:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunny.bahnhof.se (root@sunny.bahnhof.se [193.44.91.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA06469 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 06:12:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pppnode19.bahnhof.se (pppnode19 [193.44.91.119]) by sunny.bahnhof.se (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA20248 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 15:12:20 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 15:12:20 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199602021412.PAA20248@sunny.bahnhof.se> X-Sender: grappo@sunny.bahnhof.se X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: grappo@bahnhof.se (gudmund rapp) Subject: vtx: Conference in Russia Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To vortex-L I received this message from a friend of mine and thought it might be of interest. I have no more information. Gudmund Rapp > >From: "Alexander V. Frolov" >Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 23:00:53 +0300 >X-Mailer: BML [MS/DOS Beauty Mail v1.36h] >Subject: Welcome to Conference >Lines: 139 >Mime-Version: 1.0 > > > > > International Conference > St.-Petersburg, Russia >Dear Sir, > >Local Organizing Commitee consisting of >Chairman: >Institute, Russian Academy of Sciences; >Members: >Dr. Anatoly A. Efimov, >Russian Academy of Sciences; >Dr. Jaroslav G. Klyushin >Dr. Kirill P. Butusov >Dr. Juri A. Zakoldajev, >for Technics of Exploring; >Ms. Alexandra A. Shpitalnaja >Astronomical Observatory, Russian Academy of Sciences; >Mr. Vladimir A. Fogel >Association "SVETLANA"; >Mr. Alexander V. Frolov, >Academy of MegaSciences, Institute for Free Energy. > >INVITE YOU to take part in work of conference that will take >place from 17 to 22 June, 1996, in St.-Petersburg, Russia. Next >committees are planed: > PHYSICS >1. Modern problems in physics. Theoretical reports. >2. New energetics, practical results. >3. Gravitation and overlapping technologies. >4. Development of Tesla's ideas. > GEOLOGY >5-days Seminar "The ecological problems and geology" will take >place in parallel with physics committee. > > Subjects of lectures ( invited 30 Russian speakers ) are >devoted to next topics: electrogravitation, free energy, >gyroscopes and anti-gravity reaction, inertial propulsion drives, >control by rate of time, scalar electromagnetic interaction, >magnetic vector potential interaction, longitudinal >electromagnetic wave generation and detection, Mobius surface >current effects, single-wire power transmission, heat pump, >unipolar ( homopolar ) generator, torsion field. Special >reports: Ivan S. Filimonenko, his cold fusion experiments from >1960 to present time; Boris V. Bolotov, transmutation of chemical >elements; Vadim A. Shernobrov, experiments on control of rate of >time and on creation of non-reactive force in electromagnetical >devices; Konstantin D. Shukalov, demonstration of device that is >producing non-reactive force when it is powered by electromagnet. >Mr. Shahparonov will report on experiments ( demonstration also ) >to create "waves of Kozyrev-Dirak". Nikolay Kozyrev experimented >to change the "density of flow of time". Mr. Shahparonov state >that his device using Mobius surface currents can produce more >powerful waves. Source of "Kozyrev-Dirak radiation" can be used >as gravity drive or to change the inner structure of matter for >transmutation of molucules and atoms in the object. > > Please, send the name of your report, your name and address >for contacts, fax, email, and abstract by your report ( from 10 >to 20 lines ) in FAX-address of organizing committee or by email >to < alex@frolov.spb.ru > to prepare the programm of conference. > We must make it before February 15, 1996. > Also, please send by post in address: Dr. Anatoly P. >Smirnov, P.O.BOX 25, 195298, St.-Petersburg, Russia, complete >text of your report ( up to 10 pages and 2 Figures ). >Consideration of reports cannot be assured if received after >April 1. We'll print book of all reports in English before >conference for all speakers to help international discussion. > > The Forum will be held from 17 to 22 June, 1996. We are >planing 5-days work, 10 AM - 3 PM sessions, workshops devoted >experimental systems and devices will take place in the end of >every day. June 22 is reserve day for work. Detailes on >registration fee - USD 250 ( book of reports in English, >simultaneous interpreting for lectures are included ), hotel >( single rooms are USD 63 per day ) and all organizing questions >we'll inform you when we'll receive text of your report that >means your desire to take part in Conference as Speaker. > > >Best regards, > >Chairman Dr. Anatoly P. Smirnov > > FAX >___________________________________________________________________ > > PLEASE, INFORM YOUR FRIENDS ABOUT THIS FORUM >..................................................................... > Some information about Russian cold fusion experiments of 1960th > >This information is prepared by Russian magazine for inventors "Izobretatel >i Razionalizator" numer 1, 1995, page 8-9. Translation and commenary by >Alexander V. Frolov, P.O.Box 37, 193024, St.-Petersburg, Russia. > > "The fusion is coming but where is Kurtchatov?" > by N.E.Zaev, Moscow > > >The inventor Ivan Stepanovitch Filimonenko has 71 y. old now. In 1960 well- >known people Igor Kurtchatov, Sergey Koroliov and Georgiy Jukov strived for >including of Filimonenko's work in state programm for scientific-technical >progress in Soviet Union. The Decision of Council of Ministres and Communist >Party Central Committee number 715/296 of 23.07.1960 order to develop the >next strategic important principles for Filimonenko's technology: >- produce of energy; >- produce of motive force without fling back of mass; >- protection from nuclear reaction radiation. >In 1962 Filimonenko got the patent paper number 717239/38 of 27 Jule 1962 >"The Process and System for Thermo-emission". >Main idea of Filimonenko's process is the electrolysis of heavy water. The >absorption of deuterium take place in hard cathode ( palladium ) and it is >the place for fusion reaction. This fusion is not "cold" but it is "warm" >fusion because of it take place for 1000'C degrees. There are no neutron >emission for this case. Filimonenko discovered new effect: when the system >is in operate the strange emission from system take place that change the >time period of half-decay and supress inducted radioactivity. >//Note, small electric power produce big thermo-power for this case of o/u >system. Instead of energy dispersion ( entropy ) process there are energy >concentration ( syntropy ) process. It is possible only when the curvature >of space-time is change. The local space-time changes produce gravity effect >and influence to inducted radioactivity. It is clear that any deviation of >space-time curvature from normal curvature created by our planet parameters >produce the influence to any biosystem in area of o/u process. The medical >aspect of o/u system is most serious problem for development of free energy// >All Filimonenko's works was stoped in 1968. Inventor had 6 years of prison >for actions against nuclear programm. In 1989 and 1990 in Moscow area plant >"Lutch" was created two Filimonenko's reactors: tube has 0.7 m length and >0.041 m diameter. The palladium part have 9 gramm mass. Power is 12,5 Kwtts >for one reactor. >//Note: Igor Kurtchatov was died in 1960. He had only 58 y. old. > Sergey Koroliov was died in 1966. He had only 59 y. old.// > > >--- > Alexander V. Frolov >P.O.Box 37, 193024, St.-Petersburg, Russia > alex@frolov.spb.ru > > > > > > > > Gudmund Rapp Retired from various aerospace activities: Vinterbrinksvagen 7 Swedish Airforce, Decca Navigator och Radar 133 32 Saltsjobaden and Saab Aerospace. Sweden Voice: +4687178913 E-mail: grappo@bahnhof.se From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 07:41:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA29122 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 07:23:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (climate-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.251.148]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA29028 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 07:23:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.183.89.65] (macwharton.gsfc.nasa.gov) by climate.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA070234363; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:19:23 -0500 X-Sender: wharton@climate Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:22:43 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (Larry Wharton) Subject: Re: vtx: Cell Design Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Thanks to Scott Little and whoever else is involved for a source of cheap >beads for experimental purposes! > Horace, I second your thanks to Scott Little. Many investigators are interested including ceti. They would like to try out these beads themselves and see if they work. Their main concern is that improperly manufactured beads that do not work might cause a negative reaction. Ceti tried glass beads and they did work. I was told that and was not told that this information was proprietary so I guess it can be released. My impression of Ceti is that they are really interested in getting this thing working and have been totally straight with their results without any indication whatsoever of fraud. If they knew that their cell did not work they would be very upset with the distribution of reactor beads. Instead they want to try them out themselves. If they were frauds they would not want to try out ersatz beads when they know that there own beads don't do anything. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 2 10:56:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA17560 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:39:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA17498 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:39:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id JAA01056; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:39:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:39:19 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Address for Check to Bill Beaty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, Horace Heffner wrote: > Could someone please re-post the address to mail the donations to Bill > Beaty for the vortex contribution? I must have deleted it. Was the > suggested amount $10 or $15? Hi Horace. Suggested amount is $10/year, more if you like, less if you cannot afford $10. I'm at: 7040 22nd Ave NW Seattle, WA 98117 206-781-3320 I'll go make sure this is in the vortex-L webpage. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 00:49:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA03202 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 13:04:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA03077 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 13:03:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.80] ([204.57.193.80]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA10233 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:58:54 -0900 X-Sender: hheffner@matsu.ak.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 12:06:07 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: vtx: Address for Check to Bill Beaty Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Could someone please re-post the address to mail the $15 check to Bill Beaty for the vortex contribution? I must have deleted it. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 01:20:51 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA25077 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 07:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA24787 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 07:30:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id KAA00474; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:30:34 -0500 Date: 30 Jan 96 10:29:04 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Takahashi Message-ID: <960130152903_100433.1541_BHG82-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:vortex Gudmund Rapp writes: "In your reports about your trials with T's scooter you mentioned at least twice that the motor was running cool or cold. Having studied Victor Schauberger's essays, letters and other documents at some length, which is very difficult because he invented words never used before, sometimes my mind wakes me up and says, of course, a non-linear, o-u motor must run cold. That is exactly what Schauberger said in so many other words, I think!" I've read the book about Schauberger, but I could not find a relationship between it and reality as I understand it. Certainly, it is a common remark that supposedly O-U motors run cold. And that other O-U gadgets glow blue. "Do you have any more news about Takahashi. I think his motor is really worth a closer study." The story is that his magnets are indeed real, that his claims are valid. We are watching reports on his motor, and any news we can pass on we will. Note my post of a few days ago on the London Financial Times report of a claimed 10-12 times unity electric motor in the UK. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 01:25:19 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA03398 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 13:04:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA03104 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 13:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.80] ([204.57.193.80]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA10236 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:58:59 -0900 X-Sender: hheffner@matsu.ak.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 12:06:12 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: vtx: A Bose Condesate hypothesis for CF Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: BACKGROUND INFORMATION AND ARGUMENTS The recent creation of a .002 inch 3000 atom Bose condensate by Carl Weiman and Eric Cornell may provide a possible insight to some cold fusion phenomena. The rubidium atom condensate was created with much difficulty and ingenuity at the extreme temperature of 20 nanokelvins, which was created by applying an RF field to atoms in a magnetic trap. The RF field was tuned to resonate with higher energy atoms, and thus caused these rubidium atoms to flip and then be shot out of the trap, thus leaving only those atoms with no significant energy. Though this was a difficult and amazing feat, demonstrating the Heisenberg uncertainty principle relates to a true physical state of matter, not just experimental uncertainty, perhaps nature readily accomplishes it in a small way in metallic lattices. It is a much less difficult feat to create an overlap of two hydrogen nuclei in a 1 A condensate than it is to create an overlap of 3000 rubidium atoms in a 500,000 A condensate. The rubidium atom overlap was sustainable for more than 15 minutes. To be significant to CF, a condensate of two protons or deuterons in a lattice site need only be formed a very short time, if formed often enough. It seems that the Weiman-Cornell experiment, supported by the Pritchard slit experiments, clearly demonstrates the reality of the wave nature of matter. Perhaps it is the only form of matter. The particle nature of matter might be explained strictly by wave function collapse, which is not a characteristic of ordinary waves, but clearly is a characteristic of quantum waveforms. For example, looking at the photoelectric effect, suppose a huge photon waveform from a distant star impacts via it's own random selection process at a particular point on a metal surface, ejecting an electron, why do we have to say the photon is a particle at the point of the electron ejection? It could just as easily be considered (called) a collapsed photon waveform as it could be considered a particle. A waveform collapse consists of an instantaneous change in wave form center and distribution. Such a collapse also clearly accounts for tunneling effects as well. Where is the need for a particle model at all? If matter is totally wave like, it seems inescapable that charge must be therefore be distributed in the waveform, as there exists no point to carry it. This has the benefit, as Richard Feynman pointed out, of conservation of energy, because a point charge could generate an infinitely intense field, as you approach the point, requiring an infinite amount of energy to create the field. THE HYPOTHESIS Wavefurm collapse occurs probabilistically on the relative approach of two or more quantum waveforms. One quantum waveform can collapse to the location of the other. If two overlapped, i.e. relatively to each other slow, waveforms in a Bose condensate are penetrated by a high velocity waveform, a condensation can occur. Also,a kind of paradox occurs. All motion is relative. Assume the condensate is two protons, and the high velocity waveform is an electron. From the point of view of the proton condensate, the wavelength (size) of the electron is small. From the point of view of the electron, though, the condensate must be very small, and more importantly, since the waveforms of the proton condensate are phase locked and co-located, the condensate must appear located in a small volume. Thus, if there is an interaction, it would seem there would be a high probability that the interaction would be a 3 body interaction. That is to say the phase locking tendency of a condensate would greatly change waveform co-location probabilities. Given two protons jammed into a lattice site, the Schroedinger Equation predicts that they will tend to be instantaneously found in opposing locations within the site. However, should they form a Bose condensate, it is logical that their locations would appear to be the same to a fast moving particle. The hypothesis is that a Bose candensate, when stimulated by an incident particle, will tend to cause the simultaneous collapse of constituant waveforms at the same location. This hypothesis provides some explanation for various effects. One is the Kasagi experiment, where deuterated titanium is bombarded with deuterons. The reaction hypothesized by Kasagi to account for the observed results: D + D + D -> p + n + alpha (+ 21.62 MeV) requires a mechanism to make such a reaction likely in the matrix, i.e. to cause target deuteron pairs to tend to be located at nuclear distances from each other. The subject hypothesis provides such a mechanism. Similarly, the original experiments by Pons and Fleischmann, tended to produce neutrons in pairs, i.e. from single events. A deuteron condensate, stimulated by particles resulting from cosmic rays, could produce a variety of products, including neutron pairs, He4, He3, and T, as well as, depending on the type of impacting particle, transmutations such as Li and Be. Let [D + D] represent a two deuterium atom condensate. If a cosmic ray struck a deuterium nucleus, which then struck a deuterium condensate, we could have something like: D + [D + D] -> n + n + p + He3 (+ .584 MeV) Similarly, in various observed hydrogen systems a condensate could form, giving e + [p + p] -> n + p (+ energy) or e + [p + Li(n)] -> Li(n+1) (+energy) or e + [p + D] -> T (+energy) where the possibility of such formations is a matter of considerable debate. The case of : e + [p + p] -> n + p (+ energy) is just a variation of: e + p -> n (+ energy) proposed by Elio Conte. The importance of Conte's theory in this regard is that it predicts the possibility of creating such a bound state with the release of energy (17 KeV) and without a neutrino. To a much smaller degree, it seems possible that a Bose condensate might momentarily be formed between adsorbed hydrogen and lattice atoms. Such cases, as well as cases of neutron formation noted above, could possibly account for various transmutations observed in CF experiments. This hypothesis also provides some explanation for observed positive effects of using particles to stimulate loaded cathodes. TESTING THE HYPOTHESIS One way to test the hypothesis would involve colliding a particle beam with a Bose condensate and looking at the resulting products spectographically, e.g. bombard with protons and look for Strontium, Tungsten, or Osmium, etc., spectral lines in the results, and the presence of high energy neutrons or other particles. Additionally, high energy electron bombardment of the Bose condensate might create similar effects by catalyzing the condensate waveform collapse. PRACTICAL APPLICATION If true, the hypothesis indicates that spiking the cathodes of CF electrolysis cells with particle emitters should greatly increase the yield and reliability of the CF effects. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 01:41:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA09526 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 06:45:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA09360 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 06:44:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-194.austin.eden.com (net-1-194.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.194]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id IAA07356 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:44:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:44:23 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602011444.IAA07356@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: CETI cell anode construction X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Bill Page said: >The purpose of the resin beads, >as I understood at the time, was to greatly improve (decrease?) >the electrical overpotential at the anode where oxygen is liberated >through some kind of ion exchange process. Wow. I haven't heard anything about that. I just thought the uncoated beads served merely to separate the bed of coated beads from the anode screen. Anybody else know? Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 01:43:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA14175 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:29:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA13608 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:27:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-201.austin.eden.com (net-1-166.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.166]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id MAA12808 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 12:27:27 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 12:27:27 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601311827.MAA12808@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Beads are ordered! X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A The bead order has been placed! Delivery is now expected at the end of Feb...i.e. 4 weeks from now. Get your test cells ready! Thanks to a suggestion from Martin Sevior, we will be supplying a matching quantity of uncoated beads along with the coated beads. These uncoated beads can be used as a separator between the bed of coated beads and the anode. So far, we have received 6 orders for a total of 38 cc of beads. We will continue to accept orders for beads until our surplus (about 20cc) is exhausted. Repeating the specs for those of you who missed them: bare beads: 1 - 1.5 mm dia soda lime glass activation: monolayer of Sn/Pd electroless deposition layer 1: 1 +/- .5 micron Ni electroless deposition layer 2: 1 +/- .5 micron Pd electroless deposition layer 3: 1 +/- .5 micron Ni Price: $50/cc (1cc is 500-600 beads) As soon as the beads are received here, we will send them out via suitable express shipping method (prepaid) to each participant. Then we will start assembling our own test cell. That way we'll all get started testing about the same time and it'll be a race to see who gets the first robust excess heat results....:-) Stay tuned to Votex-L for periodic updates as the beads are fabricated. Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 02:12:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA21680 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:15:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA21134 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-3-019.austin.eden.com (net-3-019.austin.eden.com [206.81.226.19]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id NAA29431 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 13:13:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 13:13:08 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602021913.NAA29431@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: CETI cell anode construction X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dieter sez: >Well, of course therre must be a physical barrier there but it need not >be a dense heap of beads giving you iR problems. As you later say, just a >thin insulating screen is enough. Dieter, this brings me back to something I've never understood right: How do we get "action" to occur throughout the bed of beads. What prevents virtually all of the voltage drop from appearing across this thin insulating screen...which, in fact, is what I have observed with my pure Ni balls. If I'm right, then the best geometry would be a thin, large-area bed. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 02:12:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA11094 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 12:22:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA10560 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 12:19:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-3-023.austin.eden.com (net-3-023.austin.eden.com [206.81.226.23]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id OAA03464 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:19:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:19:43 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602022019.OAA03464@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Wharton's news about CETI X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Larry Wharton says: >Many investigators are interested >including ceti. They would like to try out these beads themselves and see >if they work. By all means...in fact I'd guess they deserve a complimentary sample, don't you think? >Ceti tried glass beads and they did work. I was told that and was not told >that this information was proprietary so I guess it can be released. This is really good news...I was afraid we were going a bit far out on the limb with the glass substrate...now I'm starting to get excited that we will actually be able to reproduce the claims in their patents! - Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 02:19:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA05353 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA04691 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:53:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA06656 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:51:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199602021951.AA06656@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:51:41 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: GAM+@PITT.EDU To: GEORGEHM@aol.com To: PUTHOFF@aol.com To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: talk Date: Fri, 02 Feb 96 14:50:46 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> GAM+@PITT.EDU MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> PUTHOFF@AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> GEORGEHM@AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 My talk at The Univ of Pitt went well. About 30 students, a few profs., and representatives from Concurrent Technologies Corp showed up. Dr. Madison, retired Eng director of the Pa. Elec Co., also showed up. Afterwards we had a meeting and coffee in the school restaurant. CTC Corp which employees 500 engineers and scientist is working on a new electric military transport. They said that the CETI device might fit nicely into their plans. The word is going back to Congressman John Murthia on the subject. He is head of the house appropriations committee. He is also head of CTC. Dr. Madison is doing some things to help me with my impasse at GPU. He is going to carry the word back to his friend Jim Leva Pres. of GPU. I'm would like to get something going with GPU and CTC as a joint effort. I stuck my neck our very far on this one and it was fun. Officially I talked to students about energy production and engineering opportunities. Hal they really liked you in the UK tape. George, I showed the picture of you and I that we took in Anaheim. Don't be surprised if you hear from CTC. George Mostoller, thank you for providing the forum at The Univ of Pitt. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 02:21:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA08691 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:36:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA08213 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:35:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca (wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca [131.136.255.106]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA06721 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:26:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602011726.MAA06721@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 12:40:29 -0500 To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: vtx: Conte's theory: wavefunction reduction Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Prof. Conte wrote: >... >In addition,if you have read my papers,I like that you have seen >for the first time concrete cases of psi wave function reduction. >Have you seen how this prossibility reopens the question on >the foundations of quantum mechanics,its logical and or logic >in the course of observations of the physical reality?I see it >a question of great interest. Yes. Your papers on this are interesting. Since I have been studying David Bohm's work, I have come to think of this problem as solved since Bohm's interpretation resolves this issue in a very different way. However, I understand that in the conventional interpretation, that the concept and effects of the so-called measurement process remain a difficult philosophical part of quantum theory. I would appreciate if you could elaborate on exactly how the process of measurement is formulated in Biquat. quantum mechanics. I did not find in your papers a complete description or comparison to the usual approach. Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 02:22:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA08764 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:36:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA08196 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:35:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca (wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca [131.136.255.106]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA06718 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:26:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602011726.MAA06718@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 12:40:26 -0500 To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: vtx: Conte's theory: 800 KeV electrons Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > [Prof. Conte wrote:] > >>Regarding your discussion: No!! the proton must be at rest! It is easy to >>obtain electrons with 800 kev of energy. This is the threshold energy required > >I have seen no statements or implication in your theory that motion is not >relative. If there is such an implication in your theory, please explain, >as this is truly revolutionary. I have to agree with Horace on this. It would violate special relativity (Lorentz invariance) if it made a difference whether it was the proton or the electron that was at rest (relative to an external observer). It is true, however, that ordinary quantum mechanics is not Lorentz invariant and it seems it can not easily be made consistant with special relativity. Conte has not specifically said anything about this, however he has referred to some aspects of special relativity. In order to deal with quantum mechanics in a manner consistent with relativity, it was necessary to formulation quantum theory in a field theoretic manner. The result was Quanum Electrodynamics (QED). Although QED is a "quantum theory" its formulation is very different that conventional non-relativistic quantum mechanics. For the special case of the proton plus electron system, there exists an special version of quantum mechanics formulated by Dirac that is Lorentz invariant. In this theory, Schrodinger's equation is replaced by something a little more complicated called (naturally) Dirac's equation. Unfortunately obtaining useful solutions of Dirac's equation is notoriously difficult. But it was the investigation of this equation that lead Dirac to propose the existence of anti-particles (before they were actually discovered) and ultimately lead to notions of the existence of the ZPF, etc. I would like Prof. Conte to tell us more about the relation of his theory to QED and to Dirac's equation. Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 02:24:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA08873 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 14:24:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca ([192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA08250 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 14:22:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca (wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca [131.136.255.106]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA10155 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 17:11:14 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602012211.RAA10155@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 17:25:36 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: Re: vtx: CETI cell anode construction Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott wrote: >Dieter sez: > >>This is mumbo jumbo. The Pt would be the anode, and the better access to it >>you give the current, the better you are off. Putting a bed of >>non-conducting beads in the way would only increase the cell voltage. > >Hold on a minute...if you have nothing "in the way" then the anode screen >can touch the bed of coated beads which would short out the cell. > >The cell consists of (from the bottom up): > >1. Pt screen (cathode) connected to a wire leading outside. >2. a bed of metal-coated beads >3. some kind of separator >4. Pt screen (anode) connected to a 2nd wire leading outside. > >Are you saying we should put in a real thin separator for minimum cell >voltage...which would presumably mean minimum I^2*R wasted power? > This thread started when I asked about the anode of the CETI cell. My recollection, which checks with what I wrote back in April after returning from ICCF5 and the CETI demo was that the anode consisted of "ion-exchange resin beads" in contact with a platinum anode screen. The anode beads and the cathode beads are separated by a nylon screen. I've checked my references, and the only reference I can find to a "ion-exchange resin" is in my report on ICCF5. So I could well be wrong, but I do specifically remember having this conversation with the Dennis and others where the words "ion-exchange resin" was used and the fact that they would not disclose its exact nature. I distinctly recall being sure that the beads used in the anode where *not* exactly like uncoated beads that were used in the cathode, i.e. resin versus styrene plastic. In the proceedings from ICCF5 (which finally arrived a few weeks ago) I note that in Dennis's paper he includes a diagram of the cell where the terms "anode bead" and "coated microsphere bed" are specifically used. This would mean something like: "the beads in direct contact with the anode screen" and "the microspheres (beads?) in direct contact with the cathode screen", respectively. There is a nylon separator, but there is no talk of "insulating beads". And note: the walls of the cell are "industrial strength glass". Both anode and cathode screens are platinum. Dennis's report says that the microspheres were previously used (presumably uncoated or coated in some other way, he doesn't say) by Patterson in ion exchange systems (besides other things). In Bruce Klein's report, however, in Infinity Energy Vol. 1 No. 1, he does refer to "non-conducting spherical beads" which "separate the anode and the cathode". So there is a bit of terminological confusion here. Deiter seems to say that the concept of an "active" anode bead material is wrong. But I'm not sure. Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 02:26:06 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA08868 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:36:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA08597 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:36:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca (wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca [131.136.255.106]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA06724 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:26:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602011726.MAA06724@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 12:40:31 -0500 To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: vtx: Conte's theory: a tutorial? Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Prof. Conte wrote: > ... >Finally,there is another question.If you see that the Biquaterion Quantum >Mechanics may endure,as all the new theories,problems for an immediate >and accurate understanding,I should be also at disposal to organize(with >impropriety I will call it ...)a course, some "explaining lessons" hold by me >by the techniques of distance learning by computer.These lessons >could be devoted to researchers or people devoted to the research.I address >this idea to you and also to the moderator of vortex-l,since together we cold >find the best form to organize this course in the best form. > ... Well, relatively speaking, I do find that Conte's material is pretty advanced. I am not able to follow all of the details, but I would like to be able to. So I am agreeable with the idea of arranging a tutorial (at least for my own benefit) of the kind suggested by Conte. I am concerned, however, that Vortex-l may not be the best place in which to conduct such a tutorial. There are likely many people here who would not be motivated to studying these theoretical issues in great depth. Perhaps a special purpose e-mail list could be setup. I'd like to hear other people's opinion on this. Also, because of the nature of the subject matter (highly technical mathematics, etc.) I think that to be successful, such a tutorial should make use of the appropriate tools. These days, one such tool is a computer algebra package like Maple or Mathematica. Personally, I prefer and am much more familiar with Maple. The newest version of Maple (release 4) is especially suited to preparing such tutorials which allow "hands-on" experience with the mathematics. For me, there is no better way to appreciate a subject that is as mathematically intense as quantum mechanics. It was a very pleasant surprize to me to discover that the computer algebra packages have advanced so far that they are actually useful in such subjects. It would be very useful if the participants in this tutorial had access to such a package. Unfortunately the cost is a little high (about $700 US, maybe there is a less costly "student" version) and the learning curve for using these packages is a little steep (though improving with the new versions). So this may not be practical. Any comments? In any case, we would need to be able to view and exchange fairly complex documents containing mathematics. To this end, I hope we could all agree at least to make use of postscript and postscript viewers. Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 02:31:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA08782 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:36:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA08229 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:35:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca (wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca [131.136.255.106]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA06714 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:26:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602011726.MAA06714@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 12:40:23 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: Re: vtx: Conte's Theory-reply to Bill Page Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Prof. Conte wrote: >... >The first FUNDAMENTAL COLD FUSION is that of electron-electron >pairs in superconductivity.This is a COLD FUSION and it is fundamental >and it is described by the Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics by the CGSE. In the standard theory (BCS) theory of superconductivity, although Cooper pairs are involved, there is *no* assumption that such pairs involve the fusion of electrons. By "pair" is meant that, although physically separated by significant distances within the metal lattice, pairs of electrons none the less behave in a coherent manner. Their respective motions are linked. In the BCS theory, the formation of such motion-linked pairs is considered to be due to phonon interactions in the lattice. A phonon is a quantum mechanically correct way to deal with the quantized mechanical vibrations of the lattice. Even though physically separated, the formation of Cooper pairs does allow these electrons to behave as boson (spin 1) "particles", to bose-condense, and superconductivity follows (well actually the BCS theory is considerably more involved but no need to go into it here). >On the other hand ,the usual quantum mechanics predicts only high >repulsive interactions for electron-electron at short distances where no >bound state is possible, This is not the case inside a crystal lattice. > ... the inability of the usual quantum mechanics >to represent the state,is evidentLet us consider now CGSE.Paired states >are spin-up and spin-down,and you may identify again two wavefunctions >,one for the usual Schrodinger equation and the other for CGSE that >contains Hulthen potential.We have again the evident effect of wave >overlapping with breaking of the SU(2) symmetry(please,see the last >number of Physics Essays ,the paper by me entitled New Pauli's >Matrices in Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics), By breaking of SU(2) symmetry, Conte is referring to the formation of a bose state. > and you will find >the binding energy of one Cooper pair(excuse me for previous error >in type written!).Note that this is ,first of all,confirmation that cold >fusion is admitted by Biquaternion Quantum mechanics ,and it is >also a confirmation of Biquaternion Quantum mechanics by supercon- >ductivity. How does this calculation of the binding energy relate to the BCS theory? If bound states like these are predicted by BQM, does it follow that a sufficiently cold electron plasma will be superconducting? Can you predict the required temperature? > ... The spontaneous >decay of the neutron then becomes a tunnel effect for its >components: >n=(p+e)------------> p+e+ antineutrino >The ANTINEUTRINO results to be a consequence of the indicated >renormalization of the electron ,and originates from >e(inside)----------------> e (in vacuum) + antineutrino. >Again.I repeat:abandoning point-like approximation for the >wavepackets of the electrons, we consider mutual >penetration,we have that protons and electrons form >neutrons PLUS Neutrinos. I would like to see the calculations in BQM that support this model. > ... The proton is a medium with >its density,when the electron is compressed in its interior,we have an >alteration of its structure (in fact,We renormalize its characteristics >using other interactions determined by the mutual penetration of >wavepackets.) If you talk in terms of the "compression" of the electron to the interior of the proton, I am very worried about how much energy such compression implies. We can simply use the Heisenberg uncertainty relation to estimate a very large number indeed, if we consider the electron to be confined to a space as small as the proton (approx. 1 fm.). > ... >Well,The Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics calculates all the basic features >of the deuteron also included the experimental value of its magnetic >moment.We are publishing now this important result,and also it is included >in my book on Biquaternion Quantul Mechanics,Volume II that I am >preparing. I am looking forward to reading this (in English, I hope). >... >Finally,there is the problem that in our theoretical basis we have considered >the proton at rest,and the electron having almost 800kev. See also my comments about Horace Heffner's remarks. Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 03:18:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA20634 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 03:08:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from escape.com (chope@escape.com [198.6.71.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA20623 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 03:08:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chope@localhost) by escape.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id GAA24238; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 06:02:05 -0500 Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 06:02:04 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Hope To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Conte's theory: a tutorial? In-Reply-To: <199602011726.MAA06724@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, Bill Page wrote: > Prof. Conte wrote: > > ... > >Finally,there is another question.If you see that the Biquaterion Quantum > >Mechanics may endure,as all the new theories,problems for an immediate > >and accurate understanding,I should be also at disposal to organize(with > >impropriety I will call it ...)a course, some "explaining lessons" hold by me > >by the techniques of distance learning by computer.These lessons > >could be devoted to researchers or people devoted to the research.I address > >this idea to you and also to the moderator of vortex-l,since together we cold > >find the best form to organize this course in the best form. > > ... > > Well, relatively speaking, I do find that Conte's material is pretty > advanced. I am not able to follow all of the details, but I would like > to be able to. So I am agreeable with the idea of arranging a tutorial > (at least for my own benefit) of the kind suggested by Conte. I am > concerned, however, that Vortex-l may not be the best place in which > to conduct such a tutorial. There are likely many people here who would > not be motivated to studying these theoretical issues in great depth. > Perhaps a special purpose e-mail list could be setup. I'd like to hear > other people's opinion on this. I read Prof. Conte to imply some format more real-time than email. If this is the case then it is appropriate for me once again to peddle the idea of using a real-time chat system like IRC to hold conferences with many participants anywhere on the net. The standard IRC software already supports file serving. Also available are computer programs that appear on the conference channel like human users and can be commanded for perform useful functions, like file serving and such. It is entirely conceivable and well within reach to create such a program which could service users that are discussing science with all sort of information, calculation power and even ascii graph capability using, say, gnuplot. In any case such a format could and in my opinion should be used to complement delayed-time structures like this mailing list. > > In any case, we would need to be able to view and exchange fairly > complex documents containing mathematics. To this end, I hope > we could all agree at least to make use of postscript and postscript > viewers. I agree wholeheartedly. We should attempt to familiarize ourselves with these new technologies and attempt to get out of the ascii era as soon as possible. In the future, every post in this very mailing list will be sent as .pdf format or some equivalent, and each will be trivially able to contain formatted text and graphics. PDF is the first step I think. PDF viewers are available freely for every platform. Really, everybody should have one and be familiar with it. Although one might call me hypocritical, considering I am on a 7Mhz machine with one screen color and a 1200bps modem, I have access to hot machines at work at least. > > Cheers, > Bill Page. > > Charles, wild-eyed digital visionary From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 04:30:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA26201 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 04:21:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA26191 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 04:21:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from cappa.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA13412; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 13:20:56 +0100 Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 13:20:56 +0100 Message-Id: <9602031220.AA13412@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: Reply to Bill Page X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear dr. Bill Page, No. You may require Lorentz invariant and/or Lorentz Transforma- tions only for physical systems that may be represented (with correct approximation) by POINTLIKE PARTICLES MOVING IN VACUUM. On the contrary,in our cold fusion of p and e in n we need the quanti- tative characterization of the DIFFERENCES experienced by these particles in their TRANSITION from motion in vacuum (and generally at distances greater than 1 fm) to motion withibn physical media that exibit inhomogeneous and anisotropic features. Let us return to an old argument.Only for approximation (when it is possible and correct)we consider the proton to be an empty sphere:we expect its constituents to have a point-like charge structure,but we have not=20 actually point-like wavepackets.All the massive particles (but you must include here also the electron)must be repersented by wavepackets of the order of 1fm.The proton is a physical medium constituted by all the wavepackets of all the components and are in condition of mutual immersion. In the file I introduced the new invariants!The profound differences between motion in vacuum and motion into the proton are the basic differences that render the usual quantum mechanics and special relativity inconsistent and inconclusive:to be clear,a generalization of these theories is required as the Biquaternion Quantum mechanics realizes. Sincerely.Elio Conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 08:17:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA25350 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 08:08:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA25336 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 08:08:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id IAA09710; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 08:08:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 08:08:43 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: CETI cell anode construction In-Reply-To: <199602011444.IAA07356@natashya.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, Scott Little wrote: > Bill Page said: > > >The purpose of the resin beads, > >as I understood at the time, was to greatly improve (decrease?) > >the electrical overpotential at the anode where oxygen is liberated > >through some kind of ion exchange process. > > Wow. I haven't heard anything about that. I just thought the uncoated > beads served merely to separate the bed of coated beads from the anode screen. I've seen bottles of "ion exchange resin beads" in catalogs. And I have plans somewhere for an H2 O2 fuel cell which call for a separator made of "Anion Exchange Resin" on filter paper. The beads are probably conductive. And they must modify the chemistry of whichever electrode they're held against, so they might reduce the metal/electrolyte potential of the anode, which reduces the heat evolved from the electrolysis, which must make the non-excess-heat temperature lower in relation to the excess-heat temperature, giving more sensitive calorimetry. Maybe? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 08:21:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA25798 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 08:11:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA25756 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 08:10:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id IAA10043; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 08:10:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 08:10:50 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Beads are ordered! In-Reply-To: <199601311827.MAA12808@natashya.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 31 Jan 1996, Scott Little wrote: ... > Thanks to a suggestion from Martin Sevior, we will be supplying a matching > quantity of uncoated beads along with the coated beads. These uncoated > beads can be used as a separator between the bed of coated beads and the anode. How about Ni-only beads (no Pd) for construction of a control cell? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 09:46:18 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA09743 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 09:30:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA09718 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 09:30:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA20925; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:30:10 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09327; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:26:18 -0500 Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:26:18 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602031726.AA09327@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Beads are ordered! Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ni-only beads may not be a "control" for light water. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 11:06:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA21645 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 10:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA21580 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 10:39:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA18043 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Sat, 3 Feb 1996 13:37:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199602031837.AA18043@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Sat, 3 Feb 1996 13:37:52 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: GAM+@PITT.EDU To: GEORGEHM@aol.com To: MANTY@CTC.COM To: MOLCHANY@etf6.ctc.com To: PUTHOFF@aol.com To: SPIRKO@CTC.COM To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: PushHard Date: Sat, 03 Feb 96 13:37:09 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> PUTHOFF@AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> JOHN W BARRON JR -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> SPIRKO@CTC.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> MOLCHANY@NDCEE.CTC.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> MANTY@CTC.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> GAM+@PITT.EDU MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Jacob Molchany CTC, Joseph R. Spirko CTC, Brian Manty CTC, George Mostoller Univ of Pitt, John Barron GPU, CC. Geroge Miley Univ. of Ill. Thank you for attending my lecture at UPJ. I have taken the next step. I have opened the door for you at the Univ of Ill Fusion Studies Lab. See attached from George Miley. Phone 217-333-3772. Do what you have to, get the word back to Jack Murthia on this matter. I will come to DC and give him the same show that you saw if he wants. I am pushing hard. Dr. Madison is doing the same. We should have the beginnings of a program in place be mid March. Push for the same. Let's work together on this starting now. George Mostoller there maybe something in this for UPJ. -> GEORGEHM@AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 11:04:05 -0500 From: GeorgeHM@aol.com To: p8156@memo.gpuc.com Subject: Re: talk Frank - your talk at PITT sounds like it was productive. Being a CIT grad, however, we always called PITT the inverted mine shaft! Anyway, I'm always looking for an excuse to return to Pgh, so would be glad if the corp you mention wants more details. George PS Brian Manty of CTC has additional information. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 11:16:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA24949 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 10:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-7.compuserve.com (dub-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.9.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA24911 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 10:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id NAA06625; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 13:56:34 -0500 Date: 03 Feb 96 13:55:01 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Gold beads make best control Message-ID: <960203185500_72240.1256_EHB100-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I think the initial tests of the Ni - Pd - Ni beads should be done without an electrochemical control cell. Calibrate with a joule heater only, which should be something like nichrome in a glass container surrounded by water. The bead cathode itself acts as a kind of rough-and-ready control, because it takes 20 minutes to get hot. You can take the first 10 minutes as the no-excess baseline. I recommend the use of flow calorimetry because the calibration with a control is not as critical as with static calorimetry. If the beads appear to give excess heat, then later on it would be a good idea to do a control run. I recommend gold plated beads because gold is a relatively inert, non-reactive metal. That's why they use it for tooth fillings. Even stainless steel might react if it is left in warm water for weeks. You might end up with a lot of iron and rust in the nooks and crannies of your calorimeter. A filter is recommended in any case. The reason I suggest you put off the control run until later is because I think it is important to work hard on the CF cell at the beginning of the experiment when you have lots of enthusiasm and gumption. If you spend too many weeks calibrating then by the time you get to the actual cell you will be sick of the experiment. If the live cell produces excess heat, you should be able to detect it with flow calorimetry and on the basis of the comparison to the joule heater. An additional comparison with an electrolysis null cathode will be icing on the cake. Put it off until you are sure you have excess, because it is not vital. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 13:14:51 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA15430 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:54:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA15360 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:54:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id MAA20026; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:52:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:52:49 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Russian conf. on unconventional science Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: see below. A. Frolov is apparantly back online. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 3 Feb 96 21:26:41 +0300 From: Alexander V. Frolov International Conference St.-Petersburg, Russia Dear Sir, Local Organizing Commitee consisting of Chairman: Institute, Russian Academy of Sciences; Members: Dr. Anatoly A. Efimov, Russian Academy of Sciences; Dr. Jaroslav G. Klyushin Dr. Kirill P. Butusov Dr. Juri A. Zakoldajev, for Technics of Exploring; Ms. Alexandra A. Shpitalnaja Astronomical Observatory, Russian Academy of Sciences; Mr. Vladimir A. Fogel Association "SVETLANA"; Mr. Alexander V. Frolov, Academy of MegaSciences, Institute for Free Energy. INVITE YOU to take part in work of conference that will take place from 17 to 22 June, 1996, in St.-Petersburg, Russia. Next committees are planed: PHYSICS 1. Modern problems in physics. Theoretical reports. 2. New energetics, practical results. 3. Gravitation and overlapping technologies. 4. Development of Tesla's ideas. GEOLOGY 5-days Seminar "The ecological problems and geology" will take place in parallel with physics committee. Subjects of lectures ( invited 30 Russian speakers ) are devoted to next topics: electrogravitation, free energy, gyroscopes and anti-gravity reaction, inertial propulsion drives, control by rate of time, scalar electromagnetic interaction, magnetic vector potential interaction, longitudinal electromagnetic wave generation and detection, Mobius surface current effects, single-wire power transmission, heat pump, unipolar ( homopolar ) generator, torsion field. Special reports: Ivan S. Filimonenko, his cold fusion experiments from 1960 to present time; Boris V. Bolotov, transmutation of chemical elements, Vadim A. Shernobrov, experiments on control of rate of time, creation of propulsion force by means of electromagnetics; Konstantin D. Shukalov, demonstration of non-reactive force in device powered by electromagnets; Ivan M. Shahporonov will report on experiments ( demonstration also) on "waves of Kozyrev-Dirak". Nikolay Kozyrev experimented to change the "density of flow of time". Ivan M. Shahporonov state that his device using Mobius surface currents can produce more powerful waves. This radiation can be used as gravity drive or to change the inner structure of matter that lead for transmutation of molucules and atoms in the object. In work of conference will take part specialists from Military Space Academy, St.-Petersburg. Please, send the name of your report, your name and address for contacts, fax, email, and abstract by your report ( from 10 to 20 lines ) in FAX-address of organizing committee or by email to < alex@frolov.spb.ru > to prepare the programm of conference. We must make it before Febriary 15, 1996. Also, please send by post in address: Dr. Anatoly P. Smirnov, P.O.BOX 25, 195298, St.-Petersburg, Russia, complete text of your report ( up to 10 pages and 2 Figures ). Consideration of reports cannot be assured if received after April 1. We'll print book of all reports in English before conference for all speakers to help international discussion. The Forum will be held from 17 to 22 June, 1996. We are planing 5-days work, 10 AM - 3 PM sessions, workshops devoted experimental systems and devices will take place in the end of every day. June 22 is reserve day for work. Detailes on registration fee - USD 250 ( book of reports in English, simultaneous interpreting for lectures are included ), hotel ( single rooms are USD 63 per day ) and all organizing questions we'll inform you when we'll receive text of your report that means your desire to take part in Conference as Speaker. Best regards, Chairman Dr. Anatoly P. Smirnov FAX ___________________________________________________________________ --- Alexander V. Frolov P.O.Box 37, 193024, St.-Petersburg, Russia alex@frolov.spb.ru From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 13:14:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA15750 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:56:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA15719 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:56:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id MAA20538; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:55:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:55:12 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Re: PushHard Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: GeorgeHM@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 15:29:57 -0500 To: fznidarsic@gpu.com, GAM+@pitt.edu, MANTY@ctc.com, MOLCHANY@etf6.ctc.com, Puthoff@aol.com, SPIRKO@ctc.com, VORTEX-L@eskimo.com cc: fusion@prairienet.org, cmelliot@uiuc.edu, mjwilli@uiuc.edu Subject: Re: PushHard To those addressed - as Frank indicates, I am pleased to host a 1-day meeting here (on the UI campus at Champaign-Urbana) in several weeks. Let me know if you can attend and I will try to find an appropriate time that is mos convenient. George H. Miley From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 13:15:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA15632 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:55:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA15561 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:55:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id MAA20314; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:54:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:54:11 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Re:energy cells Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: GeorgeHM@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 15:07:54 -0500 To: fznidarsic@gpu.com, Puthoff@aol.com, VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re:energy cells Frank - we have all been corresponding (perhaps indirectly via you e-mails). I hope to invite some people here in a few weeks to view our cell and work. Would you all have an interest in attending? George From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 13:20:44 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA15482 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:55:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA15457 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:54:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id MAA20124; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:53:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:53:18 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: A Longitudinal EM Force May Exist (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 13:44:39 -0600 (CST) From: Robert Stirniman Subject: A Longitudinal EM Force May Exist (Updated rewrite of an earlier article) A LONGITUDINAL-INERTIAL ELECTROMAGNETIC FORCE MAY EXIST More than a few experiments have been conducted which provide evidence of the existence of a longitudinal EM force. A longitudinal force is not predicted by generally accepted theories of classical and relativistic electrodynamics. Dr Peter Graneau has conducted experiments which demonstrate departures from classical electrodynamics at high current levels. A force is found to exist in a direction longitudinal to current flow. Graneau ran a variety of types of experiments with a metal rod conductor immersed in a conductive fluid (mercury, or saline solution). With high current passing through the solution the metal rod is found to move in a longitudinal direction. The longitudinal force found by Graneau may be similar to the force (v X B) that William Hooper finds in a noninductive coil. Or Graneau's force may be a coupling between the electromagnetic and gravitational fields, which is predicted by some 5-D unified EM-gravitational theories -- predicted to result from a divergence of the electric current vector field. Graneau has also discovered apparently anomalous forces and effects in high energy electromechanical devices such as rail guns and induction motors. Thomas E. Phipps Jr of Urbana IL has conducted related experiments which also demonstrate that a longitudinal EM force exists. Phipps uses quartz or metal tuning fork senors, which are driven inductively and non-inductively, to confirm the existence of longitudinal Ampere forces. In another possibly related development, Rex Schlicher of Albuquerque NM, a former Air Force officer, has been awarded a patent for a device which he claims converts unipolar current pulses into a propulsive force which is longitudinal to the directiion of current flow. Schlicher presented a paper about this device at the 31st annual AIAA Joint Propulsion conference. Schlicher's invention uses a coaxial transmission line structure, at the end of which, the return current diverges into three separate current loops. The device also incorporates copper prisms internal to the coax structure, which are insulated from the transmission line, and provide an eddy current reflection via magnetic induction. In his paper to the AIAA, he describes his device as follows: A method is presented for generating mechanical spacecraft propulsion from unsymmetrical magnetic induction fields. It is based on an unsymmetrical three-dimensional loop antenna structure driven by a repetitively-pulsed high-current power supply. Antenna geometry is optimized for generating propulsive thrust rather than radiating electromagnetic energy. A magnetic field density gradient imbalances the magneto-mechanical forces that result from the interations of the internal magnetic induction field with the current in the conductors of the antenna structure. Another example where a longitudinal force, parallel to current flow, can be demonstrated is resistance welding. It is recognized by engineers in the high-current resistance welding industry, that once current becomes established between two work pieces, a strong force develops which helps to hold the pieces together. The force exists for both AC and DC current, and does not depend on direction of current flow. A detailed theoretical explanation is not proferred, except to say that it is a magnetic effect. Also related may be the work of E.G. Cullwick. In his book "Electromagnetism and Relativity", published in 1957, Cullwick was one of the first to provide an analysis of the probable coupling between EM and inertial fields. Cullwick realized that Maxwell's equations and most existing theories of electrodynamics assume that the mass of an electron is zero. At Maxwell's time this was a reasonable assumption. But it is well known today that electrons have mass, and therefore an inertial momemtum is always associated with an electric current. Cullwick suggested in his analysis that coupling terms between EM and inertia may be very small, but would likely appear sometime in the future as we go to higher current densities. And he was one of the first scientists to predict some of the odd effects which can now seen with superconductors. Cullwick was also one of the first to identify and attempt an analysis of the relativistic paradoxes and unusual effects which occur in a rotating EM field. His work still stands today as one of the only existing efforts to consider the problem of a rotating EM field. >From Richard Feynman's Lectures on Physics we learn that there is intrinsic field energy and momentum density associated with a static electro-magnetic field configuration. When there is a change in the magnetic field, this field energy and momentum can be directly converted into kinetic energy and mechanical momentum. Feynman illustrates this with an electromagnetic carousel paradox. In this paradox, a dielectric disk (which is embedded with small charged spheres along its circumference) rotates without any apparent "counter" torque in the system. Before this rotation occurs, the dielectric disk is immersed in a static magnetic field. The subsequent rotation occurs as a consequence to reducing the previously static magnetic field to zero. The angular momentum and rotational kinetic energy comes directly from the initial static magnetic field. In my opinion, there may be something important underlying all this -- along the lines of unification of electro-magnetic and gravitational-inertial forces. The kind of experiments identified above are relatively inexpensive to conduct. Yet, no one seems to be working on things like this. Why do most physicists nowadays seem to be either engaged in prohibitively expensive government sponsored experiments, or in creating elaborate mathematical theories which may or may not have practical value? What has become of the private laboratory and the experimentally oriented physicist? Regards, Robert Stirniman (robert@wwa.com) ====================================================================== References: Thomas E. Phipps, Jr. (Urbana, IL), "A Do-It-Yourself Refutation of Modern Physics," Galilean Electrodynamics, vol 6, no 5, Sept./Oct. 1994, pp 92-97, 31 refs, 2 figs. (Galilean Electrodynamics: P.O. Box 545, Storrs, CT 06268-0545) Some simple experiments employing a tuning fork sensor are described that confirm the existence of Ampere longitudinal forces and the validity of Newton's third law as applied to electrodynamics. These empirical results contradict the "universal covariance" hypothesis and the Lorentz force law, upon which modern physical theory is built. Descriptions have been given here of experimental methods, using metal or quartz tuning forks driven both inductively and non-inductively, bridging gaps with either mercury or fine wires, that plainly reveal the existence of longitudinal electrodynamic forces parallel to current direction. Books and articles by Peter Graneau: AUTHOR: Graneau, Peter. TITLE: Ampere-Neumann electrodynamics of metals/Peter Graneau. PUBL.: Nonantuma, MA. : Hadronic Press, FORMAT: ix, 311 p. : ill. ; 23 cm. DATE: 1985 SUBJECT Metals--Electric properties--History. Free electron theory of metals--History. Electrodynamics--History. Electric conductors--History. ISBN: 0911767371 AUTHOR: Graneau, Peter TITLE: Electromagnetic Jet Propulsion in the Direction of Current Flow In: Nature June 18, 1982 No 295 Page 311 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Ampere force calculation for filament fusion experiments. In: Physics letters. a MAR 22 1993 v 174 n 5/6 Page 421 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Comment on "The motionally induced back-EMF in railguns". In: Physics letters: [part A] DEC 02 1991 v 160 n 5 Page 490 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, Peter TITLE(s): The Difference between Newtonian and Relativistic Forces. In: Foundations of physics letters. OCT 01 1993 v 6 n 5 Page 491 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Electrodynamic momentum measurements. In: Journal of physics d: applied physics. DEC 01 1988 v 21 n 12 Page 1826 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Far-action versus contact action. In: Speculations in science and technology. 1990 v 13 n 3 Page 191 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, Peter TITLE(s): Inertia's Riddle. Summary: Inertia has been misunderstood ever since the time of Galileo says Dr. Graneau. In: Electronics world + wireless world. JAN 01 1990 v 96 n 1647 Page 60 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Longitudinal forces in Ampere's wire-arc experiment. In: Physics letters: [part A] MAY 08 1989 v 137 n 3 Page 87 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. Thompson, D.S. Morrill, S.L. TITLE(s): The motionally induced back-emf in railguns. In: Physics letters: [part A] APR 30 1990 v 145 n 8/9 Page 396 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, Peter TITLE(s): Nonlocal Action in the Induction Motor. In: Foundations of physics letters. OCT 01 1991 v 4 n 5 Page 499 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. Graneau, N. TITLE(s): The role of Ampere forces in nuclear fusion. In: Physics letters: [part A] MAY 04 1992 v 165 n 1 Page 1 AUTHOR: Graneau, Peter. TITLE: Underground power transmission : the science, technology, and economics of high voltage cables / Peter Graneau. PUBL.: New York : Wiley, FORMAT: x, 515 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. DATE: 1979 SUBJECT: Electric cables Electric power transmission Electric lines--Underground ISBN: 0471057576 Other References: "Electric Propulsion Study", by Dr Dennis Cravens of SAIC Corp, prepared for the Astronautics Laboratory at Edwards Air Force Base, August 1990, Report No AL-TR-89-040 "Mechanical Propulsion From Unsymmetrical Magnetic Induction Fields" by: R.L. Schlicher A.W. Biggs W.J. Tedeschi 31st AIAA/ASME/SAE/ASEE Joint Propulsion Conference and Exhibit, July 10-12 1995 "The Feynman Lectures on Physics" by Richard Feynman, R.B. Leighton, and M. Sands, Volume II p 17-6 "Nonlinear Electromagnetic Propulsion System and Method", R.L. Schlicher Nineteenth Power Modulation Symposium of the IEEE, 1990 Page 139 "Classical Electrodynamics" by C.D. Jackson, 2nd Edition, John Wiley and Sons, New York, 1975 "The Feynman Lectures on Physics" Richard Feynman, R.B. Leighton, and M. Sands, Volume II p 27-9 US Patent #5142861, "Nonlinear Electromagnetic Propulsion System", R.L. Schlicher et al. 1992 AUTHOR: Cullwick, E. G. (Ernest Geoffrey), 1903- TITLE: Electromagnetism and relativity : with particular reference to moving media and electromagnetic induction / by E. G. Cullwick. EDITION 2d ed. PUBL.: New York : J. Wiley, DATE: 1959 (2nd Edition) SUBJECT: Electromagnetic theory, Relativity (Physics) AUTHOR: Cullwick, E. G. (Ernest Geoffrey), 1903- TITLE: The fundamentals of electro-magnetism by E.G. Cullwick. EDITION 3rd ed. PUBL.: London, Cambridge U.P., DATE: 1966 (3rd Edition) SUBJECT: Electromagnetism AUTHOR: Cullwick, E. G. (Ernest Geoffrey), 1903- TITLE: The fundamentals of electro-magnetism; a restatement for engineering students and others of physical and theoretical principles in accordance with modern scientific thought, by E. Geoffrey Cullwick ... With an appendix and numerous examples on the recently adopted M.K.S. system of practical units ... PUBL.: New York, The Macmillan company; Cambridge, Eng., The University press, DATE: 1939 SUBJECT: Electromagnetism ============================================================================ From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 15:36:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA29691 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 14:17:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA29467 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 14:16:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id OAA14122; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 14:13:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 14:13:32 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Re: Vortex-l felling ok? In-Reply-To: <199602021811.NAA23004@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 2 Feb 1996, Bill Page wrote: > I sent several messages yesterday to Vortex-l that haven't shown up yet, > though a few from others dated and timestamped after I sent mine have > arrived here. Is there a problem? Yes, something strange is going on. No error messages or bounces, eskimo.com is randomly eating occasional mail messages. I have a call in to tech support. For now, if you don't see your vortex-L message appear, go into your sentmail and forward it again. Be aware that it sometimes takes several hours for mail to make it here and back, so you may wish to wait a few hours when you notice a missing message. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 19:59:58 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA27500 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 19:50:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA27453 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 19:49:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-55.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-55.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.55]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA10678 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 14:47:13 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199602040347.OAA10678@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 14:50:20 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Wharton's news about CETI Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 2 Feb 96 at 14:19, Scott Little wrote: > Larry Wharton says: > > >Many investigators are interested > >including ceti. They would like to try out these beads themselves and see > >if they work. > > By all means...in fact I'd guess they deserve a complimentary sample, don't > you think? > > >Ceti tried glass beads and they did work. I was told that and was not told > >that this information was proprietary so I guess it can be released. > > This is really good news...I was afraid we were going a bit far out on the > limb with the glass substrate...now I'm starting to get excited that we will > actually be able to reproduce the claims in their patents! [snip] Scott, Given that the cell in the powergen demo was obscured from view due to changes in the cell configuration, perhaps CETI also decided that two opposing thin layers (concentic?) would work better? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 3 22:43:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA26715 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 22:33:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA26697 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 22:33:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-197.austin.eden.com (net-1-197.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.197]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id AAA12621 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 00:33:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 00:33:03 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602040633.AAA12621@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Wharton's news about CETI X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin said: >Given that the cell in the powergen demo was obscured from view due >to changes in the cell configuration, perhaps CETI also decided that >two opposing thin layers (concentic?) would work better? I'm thinking the layers were just in series, like this: | | | | |============| <----Pt screen (anode for 2nd cell) |oooooooooooo| <----layer of uncoated beads |------------| <----filter paper |000000000000| |000000000000| <----2nd bed of coated beads |000000000000| |============| <----Pt screen (anode for 1st cell, cathode for 2nd cell) |oooooooooooo| <----layer of uncoated beads |------------| <----filter paper |000000000000| |000000000000| <----1st bed of coated beads |000000000000| |============| <----Pt screen (cathode contact for 1st cell) | | | ^ | | | FLOW The two cells are in series hydraulically and electrically, I think. I'm a little unsure about how this arrangement would behave electrically since the electrolyte is continuous throughout the two cells...but I'm pretty sure that it'd work precisely like two separate cells connected in series. - Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 02:20:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA04404 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 02:10:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA04392 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 02:10:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id FAA16612; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 05:09:01 -0500 Date: 04 Feb 96 05:07:52 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: Wharton's news about CETI Message-ID: <960204100751_100060.173_JHB96-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> The two cells are in series hydraulically and electrically, I think. I'm a little unsure about how this arrangement would behave electrically since the electrolyte is continuous throughout the two cells...but I'm pretty sure that it'd work precisely like two separate cells connected in series. - Scott Little << Scott, I'm having difficulty seeing what the extra Pt screens can do. I can see the possible advantage of separating several layers of plated beads using filter paper, but even then the pd across each layer will be reduced depending on the number of layers. I still favour one large thin layer for each electrode separated by a thick porous insulating sheet. The operational problem then being the clogging of the separator with detritus and the path for bubbles generated at the cathode layer being blocked by the separator. May-be a swiss roll configuration with the filling between two Pt or Pd foils being a plated bead sandwich in a coarse filter "bread". The whole cylindrical assy. vertically in a glass tube. Thats my brain load for the time being folks. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 02:20:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA04410 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 02:10:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA04405 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 02:10:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id FAA16608; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 05:09:01 -0500 Date: 04 Feb 96 05:07:47 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: Re: Vortex-l felling ok? Message-ID: <960204100747_100060.173_JHB96-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> For two days I got no mail from eskimo.com. Then the mails started up again as if nothing went wrong, and tonight I'm getting loads of mail that was backed up from several days ago. Charles << This has happened to me several times in the past - the last time a couple of days ago. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 08:04:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA06179 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 07:56:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA06157 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 07:55:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-198.austin.eden.com (net-1-198.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.198]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id JAA06657 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:55:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:55:50 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602041555.JAA06657@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Wharton's news about CETI X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Norman said, in response to my post about this configuration: | | | | |============| <----Pt screen (anode for 2nd cell) |oooooooooooo| <----layer of uncoated beads |------------| <----filter paper |000000000000| |000000000000| <----2nd bed of coated beads |000000000000| |============| <----Pt screen (anode for 1st cell, cathode for 2nd cell) |oooooooooooo| <----layer of uncoated beads |------------| <----filter paper |000000000000| |000000000000| <----1st bed of coated beads |000000000000| |============| <----Pt screen (cathode contact for 1st cell) | | | ^ | | | FLOW >Scott, > >I'm having difficulty seeing what the extra Pt screens can do. I think you meant screen instead of screens because there's only three in the above arrangement and, yes, that seems right...the center screen would nominally serve no purpose except to ensure that the potential was the same value all across the cell at that axial location...but the bed of conductive beads probably does a decent job of that anyway. >I still favour one large thin layer for each electrode separated by a thick >porous insulating sheet. This certainly seems like the best way to use a limited number of beads to me as well. If, as was reported, the mysterious reaction has a strong positive temperature coefficient then why not just operate a single large-area bed at an elevated temperature? Why did Cravens resort to this (or a similar) multiple cell arrangement? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 09:29:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA15122 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:11:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA15113 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:11:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id JAA11297; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:10:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:10:59 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Hola Amigos Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Hola Amigos To: vortex-l@eskimo.com (vortex-l) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 23:39:27 -0600 (CST) Hola, Amigos. I'm back from my vacation in Zihuatanejo, Mexico. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 09:33:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA16468 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:20:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA16455 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:20:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id JAA11851; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:20:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:20:14 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: cold fusion of 1960 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: "Alexander V. Frolov" Date: Sun, 4 Feb 96 10:14:37 +0300 Subject: cold fusion of 1960 Hello, Are you have any information about Russian cold ( warm ) fusion research of 1960? Look this file, please, and ask youself only one thing: "WHY ?" ............. This information is prepared by Russian magazine for inventors "Izobretatel i Razionalizator" numer 1, 1995, page 8-9. Translation and commenary by Alexander V. Frolov. "The fusion is coming but where is Kurtchatov?" by N.E.Zaev, Moscow ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:24:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA18630; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 12:22:48 -0500 Date: 04 Feb 96 12:21:27 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: CETI's staged heating Message-ID: <960204172127_72240.1256_EHB156-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Norman Horwood remarked: "I still favour one large thin layer for each electrode separated by a thick porous insulating sheet." And Scott Little responded: "This certainly seems like the best way to use a limited number of beads to me as well. If, as was reported, the mysterious reaction has a strong positive temperature coefficient then why not just operate a single large-area bed at an elevated temperature? Why did Cravens resort to this (or a similar) multiple cell arrangement? I do not know why, but I gather the "staged heating" approach works better. The first anode-cathode heats the fluid, the second one heats it more, the third boosts the temperature to an even greater extent. Perhaps this arrangement is used for the simple reason that the inlet fluid is close to room temperature. Perhaps if the entire calorimeter was held at a high temperature, a single bed would work just as well. But I think for some reason the single large bed approach does not work as well as staged heating. There is no doubt the higher temperature promotes the reaction. One thing to bear in mind: Scott writes, "the best way to use a limited number of beads." Cravens did not have to worry about that issue. He has an unlimited number of beads, all of the very latest design. The ones at ICCF5 were from batch #6. I have no idea how many batches they have produced since then. The latest ones work much better than the older ones. I don't know for sure, but I have heard they have thicker film layers. The fact that they have gone through so many iterations makes me think that Scott Little may also need to fabricate batch after batch until he figures out what makes them so absorbent and effective. This discussion was triggered when Larry Wharton commented that CETI was acting cooperative. They do act reasonable and cooperate sometimes. At other times they clam up for no apparent reason, even when it hurts their own interests. Maybe they clam up in during months with R in them. Isn't that when you are supposed to eat clams? Or oysters? Not that I ever eat shellfish. I expect someone will eat CETI for lunch soon if they do not get their act together and take steps to ensure that indisputable scientific proof that their reaction is real is published. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 16:19:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA22835 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:05:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA22824 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:05:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-190.austin.eden.com (net-1-190.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.190]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id SAA26915 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:05:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:05:36 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602050005.SAA26915@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Latest CETI bead recipe X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed sez: >Cravens [] has an unlimited >number of beads, all of the very latest design. The ones at ICCF5 were from >batch #6. I have no idea how many batches they have produced since then. >The latest ones work much better than the older ones. I don't know for sure, but >I have heard they have thicker film layers. OK, now this is of great interest to our present effort. Does anyone on this forum have any info they can share as to changes CETI has made in their bead recipe lately? Does anyone know for sure if the beads used in the SOFE demo were the same as those used in the PowerGen demo? A hand sketch of the cross-section of a Ni/Pd/Ni bead appears in an Infinite Energy article and on John Logajan's WEB page. This sketch shows the thicknesses to be 1-2 microns Ni, 1.17 microns Pd, and 1-2 microns Ni, I think...it's a bit hard to read the writing. I used this sketch and the reported fact that Miley's group observed positive results with much thinner-layered sputtered beads to make up the simple recipe that I have given to the ersatz bead maker: 1 micron of each metal. Does anyone know if the aforementioned sketch represents the beads used at SOFE and PowerGen? On a more subjective plane: Jed also says: >I expect someone will eat CETI for lunch soon if they do not get their act >together and take steps to ensure that indisputable scientific proof that >their reaction is real is published. Let's suppose that someone duplicates their effect real soon, immediately devises massive improvements on it, and commercializes something significantly better and different, leaving CETI in the dust. How would your suggested action above help them in this situation? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 19:20:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA18229 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:53:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA18217 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id VAA04238; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 21:52:07 -0500 Date: 04 Feb 96 21:50:09 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Latest CETI bead recipe Message-ID: <960205025008_72240.1256_EHB120-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little asks: "Does anyone know for sure if the beads used in the SOFE demo were the same as those used in the PowerGen demo?" At Power-Gen they told me the latest beads are different. They did not describe any details, but I heard through the grapevine that the layers are thicker. That could be incorrect. "I used this sketch and the reported fact that Miley's group observed positive results with much thinner-layered sputtered beads to make up the simple recipe that I have given to the ersatz bead maker: 1 micron of each metal." It is important to note that Miley's beads only worked dramatically well at low power levels. I believe these were on the order of 10 mW. His beads contained nickel only. Ed Storms suggested to me that the Pd layer in the CETI beads serves to improve electrical conductivity only, playing no role in the CF reaction. He does not think that significant amounts of hydrogen can reach the Pd. He says that with one layer of Ni only, the beads would not conduct enough electricity to allow a watt or two of input, so you cannot get a large output (since output is more or less proportional to input). Ed thinks that a layer of Au or some other good conductor might work just as well as Pd does. Scott asks: "Let's suppose that someone duplicates their effect real soon, immediately devises massive improvements on it, and commercializes something significantly better and different, leaving CETI in the dust. How would your suggested action above help them in this situation?" It would help them because the technology would become firmly established in the marketplace, pushing aside potential competition. The technology would generate a revenue stream. They would be in a good position to demand royalties from the companies producing 'significantly better and different' beads because these beads would constitute an improvement on the original CETI patent. By the same token, Pons, Fleischmann & ENECO would be in good position to demand part of CETI's income stream as a royalty. Everyone who filed a patent contributing to the final product would get a share. As to what percent each player gets, that issue can be settled two ways: 1. Amiably, in business negotiations or 2. In court. Method 2 would enrich more lawyers than scientists. At Power-Gen, CETI president Reding told me that he would be quite willing to settle patent claims with Pons and Fleischmann in an amiable and business-like fashion. At the same time, he said he did not think they have a very strong claim in the first place. You might say, he acts as if he would doing them a favor by giving them a cut of the revenue stream. I found this analysis of the situation mind boggling, to say the least. I think any court would rule that Pons and Fleischmann have priority in this field, so they have a right to a share of the revenues. CETI's patent is clearly an improvement on their original work. The danger to CETI is not that someone will commercialize "something significantly better and different." That outcome is inevitable. No company could dominate this field or maintain a large technological lead for long. Even Intel, which dominates a narrow field with more authority than practically any other company in history does not and cannot dominate all forms of the computer microprocessor. There are niche markets in which non- Intel processors work better. It is a foregone conclusion that soon after the CF revolution begins dozens of companies will file patents for significant improvements on CETI. CETI's particular implementation of the technology will become obsolete much faster than the Zilog Z-80 microprocessor or the Wright Model A Flyer. This is no threat to CETI unless the improved product is so radically different that court finds it unrelated to the original design. The real danger to CETI is not that they will be imitated and improved upon. It is just the opposite: the danger is that they will be ignored, not imitated, and never improved on. That is what has happened to Apple computer, which is why they are marginalized and now on the verge of extinction. Unless CETI sets the standards early in the development of the technology someone with a completely different approach may come along and pre-empt them. Piantelli, Arata and Mills have CF technology that might work better than the thin-film beads. Our friends with the tile-burning experiment have a potentially better solution we think (but we have not confirmed the excess heat yet so we don't know). Pons and Fleischmann may have something good up their sleeves; you should never underestimate those two! For that matter, Griggs may score a high C.O.P. breakthrough of some sort, now that he is working with the big guns at NASA and Georgia Tech. If one of these alternatives goes commercial successfully before the thin-film bead approach does, that will leave CETI high and dry, with no market and no chance of ever earning any revenue. Perhaps CETI will set the standard early, make a lot of money for a few years, then later get knocked out of the ring by an unrelated technology like Arata's or Griggs'. In that case they will have earned millions for a few years, and had a good run for their money. They would be in the same position as many microprocessor entrepreneurs like the people who started Digital Research (DRI). DRI was once larger than Microsoft. The company is bankrupt but the founders got to keep all those millions they earned when it was in its heyday. . . . Let me repeat what I said a few months ago. This forum is real pleasure to read and contribute to. It demonstrates the real promise of e-mail discussions. I have not read s.p.f. since I got back from MIT. I went back and read it again and it was a shock. I think I'll cancel my subscription. There is more information here every week than you find on the Internet forums in a year. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 19:56:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA22067 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 19:19:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-7.compuserve.com (arl-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.7.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA22035 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 19:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id WAA16105; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 22:18:32 -0500 Date: 04 Feb 96 22:15:27 EST From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: A little bird told me... Message-ID: <960205031527_76570.2270_FHU70-3@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: As to CETI's latest batch, they are nearly certainly not the ones used at SOFE. "A little bird" told me the following: (1) The bead material is now titanium. (2) One of the universities testing the used beads has found non-radioactive transmutations in the metal coatings. Point (2) is not surprising, given that so many people in CF are now seeing transmutations now that they are looking harder. Alchemy lives! (P.S. It never died!) Gene Mallove From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 20:48:34 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA04437 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 20:38:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA04426 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 20:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-248.austin.eden.com (net-1-248.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.248]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id WAA11211 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 22:38:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 22:38:03 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602050438.WAA11211@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: A little bird told me... X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A big bird in NH said: >(1) The bead material is now titanium. Most interesting. Do you have ANY additional info? For example, do you know if they're Ti beads coated with Ni/Pd/Ni, Ti beads coated with Ni only, or just pure Ti beads? >(2) One of the universities testing the used beads has found non-radioactive >transmutations in the metal coatings. Anybody want to try Pb-coated beads next? :-) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 21:21:38 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA08397 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 21:06:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA08294 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 21:05:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-41.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-41.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.41]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA28127 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:02:18 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199602050502.QAA28127@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:05:27 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: A little bird told me... Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 4 Feb 96 at 22:15, Eugene Mallove wrote: > As to CETI's latest batch, they are nearly certainly not the ones used at > SOFE. "A little bird" told me the following: > > (1) The bead material is now titanium. > > (2) One of the universities testing the used beads has found non-radioactive > transmutations in the metal coatings. Eugene, this is of particular interest to me. Will there be an article on this in a coming issue of Infinite Energy? (Soon please?), or will the university in question be submitting a paper to a journal in the near future? I would particularly like to know whether by transmutation you understand the creation of a different isotope, or creation of different elements. (I.e. is the proton or the neutron the reacting particle)? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 4 21:27:32 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA08235 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 21:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA08191 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 21:05:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-41.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-41.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.41]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA28132 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:02:22 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199602050502.QAA28132@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:05:27 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: Latest CETI bead recipe Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 4 Feb 96 at 21:50, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] > It is important to note that Miley's beads only worked dramatically well at > low power levels. I believe these were on the order of 10 mW. His beads > contained nickel only. Ed Storms suggested to me that the Pd layer in the CETI > beads serves to improve electrical conductivity only, playing no role in the This I find difficult to understand, as according to "Webelements", Ni has a higher conductivity than Pd. This makes me think that what is actually important is the boundary layer between two different types of metal. The Ni-Pd-Ni beads actually have three such layers (Cu on the inside). Pd may have been chosen as the middel layer as it readily passes the hydrogen through to the inner layers, with copper chosen on the very inside, to prevent the hydrogen passing into the bead itself, thus ensuring rapid saturation of the metal layers, and a quick start up. > CF reaction. He does not think that significant amounts of hydrogen can reach > the Pd. He says that with one layer of Ni only, the beads would not conduct > enough electricity to allow a watt or two of input, so you cannot get a large > output (since output is more or less proportional to input). Ed thinks that a > layer of Au or some other good conductor might work just as well as Pd does. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 00:07:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA01990 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 23:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA01985 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 23:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA08522; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:53:26 +0100 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:53:26 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Beads are ordered! In-Reply-To: <199601311827.MAA12808@natashya.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 31 Jan 1996, Scott Little wrote: > The bead order has been placed! [...] > Thanks to a suggestion from Martin Sevior, we will be supplying a matching > quantity of uncoated beads along with the coated beads. These uncoated > beads can be used as a separator between the bed of coated beads and the anode. Don't forget about entropy! If you do this crazy thing, you will get the coated beads mixed up with the bare ones. At the sort of prices you are paying, this means long sessions with tweezers under a microscope. Take my advice and use a Teflon screen or the like, to keep the (coated) beads away from the anode. By the way, do you have specs for what sort of glass the beads are made from, or any choice in the matter? Glass is far from inert in alkali, stuff leaches out of it, albeit slowly. Mostly, that's just Na+ and K+ ions and silicate, but if there are metallic impurities in there, they may get deposited on your Ni layer. This has been discussed at some length in the Pd/heavy water context. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 00:18:45 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA03011 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:02:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA02992 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:02:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA12148; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:02:52 +0100 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:02:52 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: CETI cell anode construction In-Reply-To: <199602021913.NAA29431@natashya.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 2 Feb 1996, Scott Little wrote: > Dieter sez: > > >Well, of course therre must be a physical barrier there but it need not > >be a dense heap of beads giving you iR problems. As you later say, just a > >thin insulating screen is enough. > > Dieter, this brings me back to something I've never understood right: > > How do we get "action" to occur throughout the bed of beads. What prevents > virtually all of the voltage drop from appearing across this thin insulating > screen...which, in fact, is what I have observed with my pure Ni balls. When I say insulating screen, I mean a mesh made from some inert, insulating material like Teflon. There would be next to no iR drop across it. In a packed bed, the ionic current is carried through the electrolyte between the beads and there will be Ohmic drop along that. As I think Chris Tinsley has said, this subtracts from the overpotential applied to the beads down-current, so you get an overpotential gradient along the bed, getting smaller (less cathodic) towards the anode. How great the effect is, depends on the electrolyte concentration - the higher, the more favourable. People have also mentioned electrical resistance due to poor bead-to-bead contact; my feeling is that this would be small compared to the above effect. But, as I have said, by all means apply a simple Ohm-meter to such a bed, one probe at each end, to roughly measure this. > If I'm right, then the best geometry would be a thin, large-area bed. You're right; but then, you'd be changing the conditions... -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 00:34:31 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA05361 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:25:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA05352 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:25:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id DAA00697; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 03:23:46 -0500 Date: 05 Feb 96 03:22:42 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Latest CETI bead recipe Message-ID: <960205082241_100060.173_JHB93-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, May I add a little thought on the conductivity/bead/surface material question. In my experience of playing with low voltage devices and breadboard layouts, one of the bugbears has always been the reliability of electrical connection at junctions. What if the pressure between the beads and the connecting electrodes is a factor in determining the current carrying capacity of a cell? A lightly loaded contact would be unreliable, and the variations in diameter of the beads at the electrode interface might be causing variable cell impedance, quite apart from variations in local current density. The use of soft centred beads would help to alleviate this potential problem by allowing local compression and flattening at the surface of the electrodes to correct for size variation. OTOH, using a soft electrode material might allow the use of hard beads which could be impressed into the surface. You still require significant pressure applied from the cell structure to ensure good contact with the electrodes. Wadya think? Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 00:35:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA04765 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:19:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA04757 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:19:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA08084; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:19:06 +0100 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:19:05 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: CETI cell anode construction In-Reply-To: <199602012211.RAA10155@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, Bill Page wrote: [...] > Dennis's report says that the microspheres were previously used > (presumably uncoated or coated in some other way, he doesn't say) > by Patterson in ion exchange systems (besides other things). > > In Bruce Klein's report, however, in Infinity Energy Vol. 1 No. 1, > he does refer to "non-conducting spherical beads" which "separate > the anode and the cathode". So there is a bit of terminological > confusion here. > > Deiter seems to say that the concept of an "active" anode bead > material is wrong. But I'm not sure. The key word here is "ion exchange". OK: which ions do you want exchanged? There are anion and cation exchangers, hundreds of types for each one. If you use these, you presumably have some idea of what ions you want to exchange, and with which others. What do you want to select for, or eliminate from solution? I might mention that ion exchange membranes are sometimes used as a physical separator between an anode and a cathode compartment. If you don't want the products of the two different reactions taking place at the two electrodes, to reach each other, such a membrane, which allows only ions through, can prevent it. To sustain a current in a cell, you need transport of ions from one compartment to the other, and the membrane allows that. Beads don't make sense in this context, they are not a good physical separator. If, that is, that was the idea. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 00:47:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA06569 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:35:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA06557 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:35:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id DAA23612; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 03:34:36 -0500 Date: 05 Feb 96 03:32:56 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: Beads are ordered! Message-ID: <960205083255_100060.173_JHB66-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dieter said: >> coated beads mixed up with the bare ones. At the sort of prices you are paying, this means long sessions with tweezers under a microscope. << With Ni coating what about using a magnet to separate the wheat from the chaff if they get mixed up? I'd put the magnet under a sheet of paper and vibrate a stream of mixed beads over the field area. The uncoated glass should flow down past the magnet. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 00:50:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA07134 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:41:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA07122 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:41:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA16577; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:41:08 +0100 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:41:08 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: cold fusion of 1960 In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A note of caution on this Zaev article: I got hold of a copy of it and did a translation myself. I believe that Zaev made a lot of it up. For example, he mentions that Pons was a citizen of the Ukraine before he went to the USA. The article smacks to me of an attempt by Ukrainians who believe in CNF, to establish Ukrainian precedence; "we were there first!". Zaev ends on an upbeat note that seems to suggest that Filimonenko is back in favour, and work is being done on his idea at "Lutch". We have some people in Russia reading vortex-l: what do you know about this? -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 01:19:03 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA08436 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:55:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA08418 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:55:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA03580; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:55:47 +0100 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:55:47 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: cold fusion of 1960 In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 5 Feb 1996, Dieter Britz (that's me) wrote: > A note of caution on this Zaev article: I got hold of a copy of it and did a > translation myself. [...] I should have said that it was Frolov who kindly sent me that copy. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 04:28:23 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA23515 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 04:14:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA23506 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 04:14:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id HAA18858; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 07:13:17 -0500 Date: 05 Feb 96 06:07:29 EST From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: RE: A little Bird told me... Message-ID: <960205110729_76570.2270_FHU24-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott and Robin, I have no additional info on the new coatings of the CETI beads, so there will be no info in our forthcoming IE article. I assume the people getting the transmutations will be submitting a paper to the likes of Fusion Technology. Gene From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 06:07:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA03765 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 05:54:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA03734 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 05:54:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA09353 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:53:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199602051353.AA09353@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:53:56 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Re:energy Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 08:52:44 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Company Officials suggest that I take vacation time to go and see Miley. I'm making some contacts at CTC corp. The next time that place offers a severence package I am going to try to jump ship and take go to CTC. Frank, If I were you, as a minimum, I would take vacation and go to Illinois. Its not like you can't afford it. You should not sacrifice your recogni- tion is this technology. Rick -> NICHOLAS T ESPOSITO -> JEROME R SEESE II -> JOHN W BARRON JR -> FRANK ZNIDARSIC -> SUSAN D STAHL Miley has invited us/me out to UIUC to see his cell and energy equipment. CTC is going. I will not be going. Frank Znidarsic /04/96 21.41 -> FRANK ZNIDARSIC Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:54:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: vtx: Re:energy cells Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 06:09:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA03301 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 05:50:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA03287 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 05:50:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-154.austin.eden.com (net-1-154.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.154]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id HAA12201 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 07:50:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 07:50:45 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602051350.HAA12201@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Beads are ordered! X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dieter said: >Take my advice and use >a Teflon screen or the like, to keep the (coated) beads away from the anode. Thanks...it's already in the plan. >By the way, do you have specs for what sort of glass the beads are made from, it's ordinary soda lime glass. >or any choice in the matter? Theoretically, yes, but the order has already been placed for this glass which is what the vendor is familiar with, etc. etc. Hopefully, none of the glass will every be directly exposed to the electrolyte. Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 06:10:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA03563 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 05:53:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA03550 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 05:53:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA07520 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:52:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199602051352.AA07520@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:52:27 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: email Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 08:51:37 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> FRANK ZNIDARSIC -> CMELLIOT@UIUC.EDU MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 I passed your e-mail address along to Joesph R. Spriko. He will contact you for additional information. For the next few weeks I'm stuck in the mud on the project. Until I get past a certain bottleneck I will not be able to come to Miley's seminar as a representative of GPU. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 06:29:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA05468 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 06:06:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA05410 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 06:06:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from nu.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA00523; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 15:05:49 +0100 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 15:05:49 +0100 Message-Id: <9602051405.AA00523@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: Reply to dr. Frolov X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear dr. Frolov, thank you for your messagealso if it is chelling for me. You ask "why". I do not know. I know that in principle we are convinced about the neutrality of science:actually, they are internal and external factors that in many cases influence storically the evolution of the scientific knowledge. You have to consider the powerful action of resistence that some physics is explaining from sixty yeras.I appreciate to develop here this argument for me,for you and for all the com- ponents of vortex.Let us consider what it has happened. As we hnow,Lagrang and Hamilton,many years ago,conceived their well known equations that are at the basis of all the present physics.The problem is not here.Instead,the problem is that ,actually, a great part of the physics does not accept to consider the true equations of Lagrang and Hamilton.The equations of Lagrange and Hamilton,assumed to day at the basis of the physics,are different from the true equations that were introduced by these authors.What has it happened? The true equations of Lagrange and Hamilton contained external terms implying the nonconservation of energy and thus relating non conservative systems. All the founfer fathers of the physics,see i.e. Jacobi,used these equations. STARTING WITH SOME TIME,some physicists started using these equations eliminating these external terms.They eliminated tout court these terms!!!!.In fact,if you take a current textbook to day you find these equations with the truncation of these external terms.You never find a specific physical motivation to this regard with the exception of some= cases. The scientific progress suppressed the initial vision of Lagrange and of Hamilton ,and enabled to enter in physics (by these equations!!!) only to conservative systems.It should appear that no matter against the neutrality of science should be posed for this arbitrary elimination.And, instead,a profound physical reason existed(and this could be normal) and still existes and also is defended (and this is less normal!).The reason is that the truncated equations enabled positive results in classical mechanics but,and this is the fundamental fact!!!!,these equations enabled to describe the quantization and the derived quantum mechanics in its usual form that we hnow.Actually,still this is not a mortification of the=20 scientific knowledge.The usual quantum mechanics has had a great success,it has= predicted a great number of experimental facts,but also it left unsolved many= problems, and in particular the fuzzy question(only for the usual quantum mechanics!) of the collapse of the wave function.The physicists forgot the the usual= quantum mechanics,accorded to the truncated equations of Lagrange and Hamilton,was introduced to be only the atomic theory of the matter.It is very serious= that some physicists also to day forget that the usual quantum mechanics is an atomic theory of the matter.This is not a little limit:it involves=20 some specific=20 approximations in the way to account the physical reality,and these=20 approximations are extended in variuos directions as far as to the manner= in wich the particles are actually constituted when they enter at=20 nuclear,subnuclear, .........,levels.This limit involves all the present physics and some its=20 models. Lagrange and Hamiltn,instead,introduced true equations that are universal in the sense that in that form were applicable to all possible systems,and in particular those with conservative or not forces,deriving or not from a=20 potential or instead due to oveerlap of wavepackets.Well,to day the situation of the consolidated success of the usual quantum mechanics is so that it has= difficulty to acknowledge the importance of a generalization of quantum mechanics,that instead is required with urgency in order to explain phenomena that are out from the possibilities of the usual quantum mechanics. This is the case of the Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics that is a genera- lization of the usual quantum mechanics,it applyes to systems with= conservati- ve and non conservative forces ,and,thus,obviously,for the proper form of the interactions that this theory is able to account,is able to describe the cold fusion,and,for the first time from the advent of quantum mechanics,this theory describes also with evidence of the phenomenon,the collapse of the wave function.It obtains this description in a maneer that is out from the= =20 suggestive interpretations that were introduced in the past in the tentative= =20 to solve the problems of the quantum mechanics. As I have just said,the Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics predices the cold fusion;and,in particular,do you want know what kind of cold fusion is= predicted from the Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics?:it predices the fusion of the= proton and the electron to form the neutron.An old hypothesis of Rutherford about= =20 1930.Do you see how many years have been passed(losed ?)? We are now discussing on the theoretical basis of the Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics:it remains difficult,after a great number of yersa,to accept that the neurton(But also many other systems of interest may be taken in consideration) is formed by p and e .I am asking groups to make=20 with us=20 experimental verifications to have reproducible results.My collague,a well prepared and excellent physicist,very interested to the theory,has asked to me:"in reality,you must have patience,it is need time, why,if the neutron is formed by p and n none physicist in the past observed this event,also occasionally?There are also situations in which we do not intend to see: I have not sayd to this my friend,still,that about 1960 the n,constituted by= p and e,was actually observed and,in addition,by an experiment performed ad hoc.I have the results in my hands,obtained by a physicist that had only a limit,to be a physicist not with a great renown.For this reason,he failed in the tentative to submit the results in literatute.So,dr Frolov,we have started with an ugly story and we have concluded with another bitter story. I am convinced that there is only one way to overcome these situations: when very innovative results are given in physics,many experimental groups must verify by experiments working on similar experiments and verifications, only in the case of reproducible results the international scientific= comunity is called with urgency to take in consideration seriously the new scientific development that is emerging.This is the only way to avoid the= mortifications that we have had in the past,and,finally,this is also the the suggestion= that continously I am addressing to the components of vortex-l also for the= question of the neutron. sincerely.Elio Conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 07:26:39 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA13370 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 07:00:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA13309 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 06:59:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA09562 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:59:25 -0500 Message-Id: <199602051459.AA09562@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:59:25 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: A Longitu Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 09:58:35 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:53:18 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: A Longitudinal EM Force May Exist (fwd) Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 13:44:39 -0600 (CST) From: Robert Stirniman Subject: A Longitudinal EM Force May Exist (Updated rewrite of an earlier article) A LONGITUDINAL-INERTIAL ELECTROMAGNETIC FORCE MAY EXIST More than a few experiments have been conducted which provide evidence of the existence of a longitudinal EM force. A longitudinal force is not predicted by generally accepted theories of classical and relativistic electrodynamics. Robert ................................................................ I have been saying this for a number of years. Longitudinal waves exist in coaxial cables. To electrical engineers these waves are known as common mode noise. Significantly this common mode noise travels at different velocities in coaxial cables. Look at the rear of you computer. See the bump on the cable going to your video monitor. That is a ferrite torroid. It filters out the common mode LONGITUDINAL radiation. Neutrinos may be longitudinal light. The HUM may be a longitudinal communications system used by the navy. Like neutrinos this longitudinal HUM has great penetrating power. In transverse emission the emitter (an electron) travels at sub-luminal velocity and the emission (light) travels at light speed. Shake a rope and note that your hand moves at a lower velocity than the wave that propagates down the rope. Shake a rope in the longitudinal direction and note that your hand must move at the velocity of the propagated wave. An electron must vibrate at light speed to emit longitudinal emissions. Light slows down in a dielectric medium. Electrons can vibrate at luminal velocities in such a medium. Transverse emission are possible in such a medium. The navy's hum emitting antenna's are buried deep within the earth (a dielectric medium). Neutrinos are emitted by a process of beta decay...the energy density at the time of emission is 90 x normal (a high dielectric constant) Can you see the connection? The momentum energy relationship for long' light is the same as transverse light. Momentum = energy/c I've looked at longitudinal light as a momentum source. I thought for a while that it may be the answer. I'm not sure now. Frank Znidarsic PS there is a lot of info on the subject on my "Book on a Disk" References: Thomas E. Phipps, Jr. (Urbana, IL), "A Do-It-Yourself Refutation of Modern Physics," Galilean Electrodynamics, vol 6, no 5, Sept./Oct. 1994, pp 92-97, 31 refs, 2 figs. (Galilean Electrodynamics: P.O. Box 545, Storrs, CT 06268-0545) Some simple experiments employing a tuning fork sensor are described that confirm the existence of Ampere longitudinal forces and the validity of Newton's third law as applied to electrodynamics. These empirical results contradict the "universal covariance" hypothesis and the Lorentz force law, upon which modern physical theory is built. Descriptions have been given here of experimental methods, using metal or quartz tuning forks driven both inductively and non-inductively, bridging gaps with either mercury or fine wires, that plainly reveal the existence of longitudinal electrodynamic forces parallel to current direction. Books and articles by Peter Graneau: AUTHOR: Graneau, Peter. TITLE: Ampere-Neumann electrodynamics of metals/Peter Graneau. PUBL.: Nonantuma, MA. : Hadronic Press, FORMAT: ix, 311 p. : ill. ; 23 cm. DATE: 1985 SUBJECT Metals--Electric properties--History. Free electron theory of metals--History. Electrodynamics--History. Electric conductors--History. ISBN: 0911767371 AUTHOR: Graneau, Peter TITLE: Electromagnetic Jet Propulsion in the Direction of Current Flow In: Nature June 18, 1982 No 295 Page 311 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Ampere force calculation for filament fusion experiments. In: Physics letters. a MAR 22 1993 v 174 n 5/6 Page 421 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Comment on "The motionally induced back-EMF in railguns". In: Physics letters: [part A] DEC 02 1991 v 160 n 5 Page 490 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, Peter TITLE(s): The Difference between Newtonian and Relativistic Forces. In: Foundations of physics letters. OCT 01 1993 v 6 n 5 Page 491 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Electrodynamic momentum measurements. In: Journal of physics d: applied physics. DEC 01 1988 v 21 n 12 Page 1826 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Far-action versus contact action. In: Speculations in science and technology. 1990 v 13 n 3 Page 191 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, Peter TITLE(s): Inertia's Riddle. Summary: Inertia has been misunderstood ever since the time of Galileo says Dr. Graneau. In: Electronics world + wireless world. JAN 01 1990 v 96 n 1647 Page 60 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. TITLE(s): Longitudinal forces in Ampere's wire-arc experiment. In: Physics letters: [part A] MAY 08 1989 v 137 n 3 Page 87 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. Thompson, D.S. Morrill, S.L. TITLE(s): The motionally induced back-emf in railguns. In: Physics letters: [part A] APR 30 1990 v 145 n 8/9 Page 396 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, Peter TITLE(s): Nonlocal Action in the Induction Motor. In: Foundations of physics letters. OCT 01 1991 v 4 n 5 Page 499 AUTHOR(s): Graneau, P. Graneau, N. TITLE(s): The role of Ampere forces in nuclear fusion. In: Physics letters: [part A] MAY 04 1992 v 165 n 1 Page 1 AUTHOR: Graneau, Peter. TITLE: Underground power transmission : the science, technology, and economics of high voltage cables / Peter Graneau. PUBL.: New York : Wiley, FORMAT: x, 515 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. DATE: 1979 SUBJECT: Electric cables Electric power transmission Electric lines--Underground ISBN: 0471057576 Other References: "Electric Propulsion Study", by Dr Dennis Cravens of SAIC Corp, prepared for the Astronautics Laboratory at Edwards Air Force Base, August 1990, Report No AL-TR-89-040 "Mechanical Propulsion From Unsymmetrical Magnetic Induction Fields" by: R.L. Schlicher A.W. Biggs W.J. Tedeschi 31st AIAA/ASME/SAE/ASEE Joint Propulsion Conference and Exhibit, July 10-12 1995 "The Feynman Lectures on Physics" by Richard Feynman, R.B. Leighton, and M. Sands, Volume II p 17-6 "Nonlinear Electromagnetic Propulsion System and Method", R.L. Schlicher Nineteenth Power Modulation Symposium of the IEEE, 1990 Page 139 "Classical Electrodynamics" by C.D. Jackson, 2nd Edition, John Wiley and Sons, New York, 1975 "The Feynman Lectures on Physics" Richard Feynman, R.B. Leighton, and M. Sands, Volume II p 27-9 US Patent #5142861, "Nonlinear Electromagnetic Propulsion System", R.L. Schlicher et al. 1992 AUTHOR: Cullwick, E. G. (Ernest Geoffrey), 1903- TITLE: Electromagnetism and relativity : with particular reference to moving media and electromagnetic induction / by E. G. Cullwick. EDITION 2d ed. PUBL.: New York : J. Wiley, DATE: 1959 (2nd Edition) SUBJECT: Electromagnetic theory, Relativity (Physics) AUTHOR: Cullwick, E. G. (Ernest Geoffrey), 1903- TITLE: The fundamentals of electro-magnetism by E.G. Cullwick. EDITION 3rd ed. PUBL.: London, Cambridge U.P., DATE: 1966 (3rd Edition) SUBJECT: Electromagnetism AUTHOR: Cullwick, E. G. (Ernest Geoffrey), 1903- TITLE: The fundamentals of electro-magnetism; a restatement for engineering students and others of physical and theoretical principles in accordance with modern scientific thought, by E. Geoffrey Cullwick ... With an appendix and numerous examples on the recently adopted M.K.S. system of practical units ... PUBL.: New York, The Macmillan company; Cambridge, Eng., The University press, DATE: 1939 SUBJECT: Electromagnetism ============================================================================ From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 09:10:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA01501 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:44:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA01432 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:44:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id IAA03318; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:44:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:44:04 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Latest CETI bead recipe Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: Latest CETI bead recipe To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 06:41:44 -0600 (CST) Norman Horwood wrote: > What if the pressure between the beads and the connecting electrodes is a > factor in determining the current carrying capacity of a cell? A lightly > loaded contact would be unreliable, and the variations in diameter of the > beads at the electrode interface might be causing variable cell impedance, > quite apart from variations in local current density. I think this is correct because the early CETI cells had compression screw adjustments to compact the beads. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 09:11:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA01637 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:45:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA01588 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:45:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id IAA03421; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:44:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:44:46 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: A little bird told me... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: A little bird told me... To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 07:27:52 -0600 (CST) Gene Mallove wrote: > (1) The bead material is now titanium. If it is a titanium coating rather than a titanium bead base, then it isn't covered in Patterson's #5,036,031 patent where he describes only gold, silver, platinum, palladium, nickel, rhodium, copper, and tin platings. This could be one of the reasons for secrecy until the patent is updated. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 10:42:04 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA17112 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunny.bahnhof.se (djdump@sunny.bahnhof.se [193.44.91.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA16827 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:07:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from djdump@localhost) by sunny.bahnhof.se (8.7.1/8.7.1) id TAA19286; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 19:06:56 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 19:06:56 +0100 (MET) From: djdump@bahnhof.se X-Sender: djdump@sunny To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Bernoullis theorem vs. Principle of Relativity Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Bernoulli's theorem states that pressure is lower in a moving medium relative to a stationary but this is contradictory to the Principle of Relativity. Does fluiddynamics require an absolute room? How is this room chosen? Help me someone. I am feeling lost. David -- David Jonsson Phone +46-18-24 51 52 Kantorsgatan 30:390 Cellular Phone +46-707-21 25 19 S-754 24 Uppsala E-mail: david@bahnhof.se Sweden Web http://bahnhof.se/~david From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 10:59:34 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA08992 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:23:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA08957 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:23:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA10599 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Mon, 5 Feb 1996 12:22:45 -0500 Message-Id: <199602051722.AA10599@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 5 Feb 1996 12:22:45 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: institute Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 12:02:57 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Nickel Development Institute Dennis W Rahoi PO Box 347 Rockaway NJ 07866 201-625-8033 US 416-591-7999 Canada They may of some help to us. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 12:48:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA13911 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 12:25:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA13867 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 12:25:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA14802 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Mon, 5 Feb 1996 15:24:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199602052024.AA14802@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 5 Feb 1996 15:24:27 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Bernoulli Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 15:23:25 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 19:06:56 +0100 (MET) From: djdump@bahnhof.se X-Sender: djdump@sunny To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Bernoullis theorem vs. Principle of Relativity Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Daivd how can you be lost. You got a new job. A cellular phone. I think you have become found. Frank Z the answer is kinetic energy = potential energy 1/2 m vv = mgh Put in what you know solve for what you don't Be careful with you units they should factor out correclty. v = velocity meters/sec m = kilograms g = 9.8 meters/second h = height the fluid will rise in meters Realtivistic effects are not noticed until velocitys > 3 x 10 exp 6 m/s Bernoulli's equation works at noramal velocities. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 14:30:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA18844 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 12:51:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA18716 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 12:50:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.83] ([204.57.193.83]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA04354 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:15:07 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:53:40 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: A little bird told me... Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott joked: > >Anybody want to try Pb-coated beads next? :-) Since Pb is cubic face centered, has a conductivity of 0.0481 (Pd is .0950), bond length of 3.5 A, and atomic radius of 1.81, it might be a suitable replacement for Pd in the beads. I wonder how tough it might be to plate Pb with Ni. I suspect an intermediate plating might be required, voiding the use of Pb. Maybe too difficult? Sputtering might work if a clean lead surface could be obtained. Then there are the infinite possibilities offered by alloys of Pb, Ni, Pd, Au, etc. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 15:55:31 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA10490 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:53:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA10443 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:53:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-154.austin.eden.com (net-1-159.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.159]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id QAA19712 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:52:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:52:13 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602052252.QAA19712@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Latest CETI bead recipe X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Norman said: >OTOH, using a soft electrode material might allow the use of hard beads which >could be impressed into the surface. You still require significant pressure >applied from the cell structure to ensure good contact with the electrodes. I guess I'm expecting the beads to touch each other and the contact screen electrically pretty well even if they are very hard. The solid Ni balls in my present cell sure do! Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 16:24:31 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA10497 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:53:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from julia.math.ucla.edu (root@julia.math.ucla.edu [128.97.4.254]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA10458 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:53:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from moebius.math.ucla.edu by julia.math.ucla.edu (Sendmail 4.1/1.13) id AA25013; Mon, 5 Feb 96 14:53:25 PST Received: by moebius.math.ucla.edu (Sendmail 4.1/1.13) id AA05982; Mon, 5 Feb 96 14:53:25 PST Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 14:53:25 PST From: Barry Merriman Message-Id: <9602052253.AA05982@moebius.math.ucla.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Bernoullis theorem vs. Principle of Relativity Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Bernoulli's theorem states that pressure is lower in a moving medium > ... contradictory to the Principle of Relativity. The simple form of B's theoreom applies to a stationary (steady state) fluid flow, and for many interesting configurations there is only one ref frame in which it is steady state (e.g. consider a Veturi tube---in all frames but on the tube is moving and thus the flow is not steady state). Also, it applies only along streamlines, so in general does not allow you to make comparisons across streamlines, which also helps with the above paradox. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 19:02:23 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA14664 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:16:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA14490 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:14:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id SAA27275; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:14:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:14:14 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Cell Design Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: Martin Edmund Sevior Subject: Re: vtx: Cell Design To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:43:38 +1100 (EST) Lawrence Warton wrote: > I second your thanks to Scott Little. Many investigators are interested > including ceti. They would like to try out these beads themselves and see > if they work. Their main concern is that improperly manufactured beads > that do not work might cause a negative reaction. Ceti tried glass beads > and they did work. > If they want to do that why don't they just sell their beads to investigators? We'd all be much happier with real beads. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 5 11:47:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA02674 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:30:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA02636 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:29:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p7.aa.net (s3c0p7.aa.net [204.157.220.139]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA03995 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:28:37 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602051928.LAA03995@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 06 Feb 1996 11:29:09 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: vtx: BILL MULLER MAGNETIC MOTOR Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have been led to believe that Bill Muller has a webpage or web citation of his work somewhere wwww, but I have been unable to locate anything through altavista and casual perusal of a few science pages... anybody know his www whereabouts? ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 01:17:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA26734 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:22:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA26566 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:21:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA17277; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 19:19:39 -0500 Date: 05 Feb 96 19:16:06 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: Latest CETI bead recipe Message-ID: <960206001606_100060.173_JHB67-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott said: >> I guess I'm expecting the beads to touch each other and the contact screen electrically pretty well even if they are very hard. The solid Ni balls in my present cell sure do! << I was thinking of the much lighter beads - glass plated with Ni etc being less likely to pack completely evenly and also to have a relatively rougher surface than solid Ni. I would still like to see a degree of compression to ensure continuous good contact with both electrodes. However if your happy - I'm happy! Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 01:19:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA01333 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:43:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA01248 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:43:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id IAA03239; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:43:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:43:19 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Latest CETI bead recipe Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: Latest CETI bead recipe To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 07:22:08 -0600 (CST) Jed writes: > Griggs may score a high C.O.P. breakthrough of some sort, now that he is > working with the big guns at NASA and Georgia Tech. Do we have contacts directly in NASA (or GT) that will give us more info on the trials? After all, NASA is a public institution and their results should be open. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 01:22:55 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA19556 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:47:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA19309 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:46:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id SAA00964; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:45:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:45:30 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: majordomo problems Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "Support" at Eskimo Inc. is aware of the disappearing mail messages and is working on the problem. Other groups besides Vortex-L have reported the same thing: messages which vanish without being bounced to the sender or forwarded as errors to the moderator. The interim cure is to keep watching vortex-L when you reply to messages. If your mail does not appear after about one day, please send again. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty billb@eskimo.com vortex-L freenrg-list taoshum-L webhead-L EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 voice:206-781-3320 SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 01:26:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA00749 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:41:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA00661 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:40:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id IAA02787; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:40:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:40:15 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Latest CETI bead recipe Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: Latest CETI bead recipe To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 21:39:43 -0600 (CST) > A hand sketch of the cross-section of a Ni/Pd/Ni bead appears in an Infinite > Energy article and on John Logajan's WEB page. This sketch shows the > thicknesses to be 1-2 microns Ni, 1.17 microns Pd, and 1-2 microns Ni, I > think...it's a bit hard to read the writing. That's my reading of the values too. For what it is worth, in patent # 5,036,031 Patterson mentions plating thickness from 6.5e-6 to 0.03e-6 meters, about a 200:1 range. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 01:29:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA00999 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:42:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA00920 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:41:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id IAA03016; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:41:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:41:48 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Travel to Potapov Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 13:10:21 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: Mihai JALOBEANU To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Travel to Potapov Dear Friends, As planned, next week I shall try to travel to Kishinev following Dr. Potapov's kind invitation. (I try because the trains and planes can be disturbed by very bad weather.. ora pro nobis). The subject of the visit is collaboration re. Potapov's Quantum Generator and analysis of the results of his visit in the US. I am aware that the majority of the Vortexmen is skeptical re. the o/u character of Potapov's YUSMAR, I am not. Two pragmatical proofs: - he cannot sell dummies on large scale; -if Griggs' Hydrosonic Pump is o/u, the YUSMAR, working on the same principle but with a different engineering ,is as well. The Quantum Generator is a type of super-Yusmar. I hate polemics and wouldn't argue pro Potapov; in any case, working or not, his device is using a genuine vortex (actually two) and that's the name of this discussion group. If somebody has questions or requests to Yuri (including 'please money back!) I am here till Monday noon, our time. Peter Gluck From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 01:35:39 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA16797 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 12:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA16738 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 12:39:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.83] ([204.57.193.83]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA04278 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:04:43 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:43:16 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Latest CETI bead recipe Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: > >It is important to note that Miley's beads only worked dramatically well at >low power levels. I believe these were on the order of 10 mW. His beads >contained nickel only. Ed Storms suggested to me that the Pd layer in the CETI >beads serves to improve electrical conductivity only, playing no role in the >CF reaction. He does not think that significant amounts of hydrogen can reach >the Pd. He says that with one layer of Ni only, the beads would not conduct >enough electricity to allow a watt or two of input, so you cannot get a large >output (since output is more or less proportional to input). Ed thinks that a >layer of Au or some other good conductor might work just as well as Pd does. > If this is all true, it seems like Ni coated Pd beads would work just as well, maybe better. Also, Ni coated Pt beads should also work similarly to Ni/Pd beads, but at a higher cost. Silver, having the best conductivity, being easily plated, cubic face centered, and cheap, seems like the best candidate if conductivity is what is needed. There does seem to be a discrepancy, though, in that Pd has a lower conductivity (higher resistance) than Ni. Here is a little table of conductivity (E., 10^6 ohm-1 cm-1),bond length (B.L. in A), and atomic radius (A.R. in A) for various cubic face centered metals involved: B.L. A.R. C. Ag 2.889 1.75 0.630 Au 2.884 1.79 0.452 Ni 2.492 1.62 0.596 Pd 2.751 1.79 0.095 Pt 2.746 1.83 0.097 Maybe there is something special crystallographically going on at the Pd/Ni boundary due to the difference in bond lengths between Ni and the other elements? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 01:37:33 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA08273 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:35:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA08143 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA14779 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:33:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199602060133.AA14779@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:33:19 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: BHANSS@aol.com To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: ReqInfo Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 20:32:36 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> BHANSS@AOL.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Bill Hanssen Lincoln Electric has contacted me for for additional information. Could thouse of you who have info please share it with him? I will send him a copy of of my book on a disk to get him up to speed quickly. Jim Mannel / Bill Hanssen Bhanss@aol.com Lincoln Electric Co. Lincoln Nebraska thanks Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 01:39:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA08375 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:59:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA08169 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:58:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.83] ([204.57.193.83]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA04023 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:23:15 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:01:49 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Wharton's news about CETI Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott said: > >I'm thinking the layers were just in series, like this: > > | | > | | > |============| <----Pt screen (anode for 2nd cell) > |oooooooooooo| <----layer of uncoated beads > |------------| <----filter paper > |000000000000| > |000000000000| <----2nd bed of coated beads > |000000000000| > |============| <----Pt screen (anode for 1st cell, cathode for 2nd cell) > |oooooooooooo| <----layer of uncoated beads > |------------| <----filter paper > |000000000000| > |000000000000| <----1st bed of coated beads > |000000000000| > |============| <----Pt screen (cathode contact for 1st cell) > | | > | ^ | > | > | > FLOW > >The two cells are in series hydraulically and electrically, I think. I'm a >little unsure about how this arrangement would behave electrically since the >electrolyte is continuous throughout the two cells...but I'm pretty sure >that it'd work precisely like two separate cells connected in series. It would make more sense to me if the Pt screen were connected to different voltage sources. Someone in this group already suggested using resistors between the Pt screens for that purpose. If I could remember who, I'd mention the name. This permits the needed stagewise heating to permit large delta T's for the cell, while keeping the sub-cell scale identical to prior experiments, thus avoiding the need for any new technology for scaling up. It appears the flow direction was chosen to prevent current in the electolyte from being ionic current toward the cathode. Ionic current is a very slow current. A large current can be accomodated by a large number of ions, but the actual velocity of the ion flow is well below walking speed. The flow direction chosen prevents ion flow from reaching the cathode. This means that any net ion flow is probably OH- or other negative ion flow from the anode to the cathode. The purpose of this may be to prevent H2 bubble formation by ensuring that the H+ formed at the cathode comes from breaking down molecules, not H+ flow. The Pt screen between cells might also have the purpose of catalyzing recombination, so the process at cell n+1 is as nearly as close to that at cell n as possible. I think an interresting arrangement might be to run capillary tubing, say left to right, throughout a horizontal bead bed of cells. It might be necessary to run the capillary tubing through the non conductive anode bead bed. The cells could be simply partitioned horizontally, with electrolyte fluid flow produced by a gang pump (lots of cheap pumps driven by a common shaft). The cells to the left would be cooler than those at the right. Each cell could overflow into it's own degassing chamber (toward the rear), from which the electrolyte would be pumped back into the bottom of the corresponding electrolysis cell. Such an arrangement could be in the form of a tray formed from molded glass. The advantage to this is that the cells would be electrically in parallel, but the capillary fluid stages would be in series. The cells would all be chemically isolated. Also, calorimitry would be simplified by eliminating the electrolyte from the flowing calorimitry cycle. A gas carrying manifold connected to each degassing chamber would carry away the gasses, and a similar manifold could deliver fresh electrolyte to the cells. A gravity fed electolyte overflow drain in each cell could carry away the excess electolyte for recylcling or other processing. Multiple trays could then be stacked to form a compact structure. The entire structure could then be placed in a pressure vessle to operate at above 100 deg. C. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 01:50:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA07986 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:33:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA07837 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:32:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.76] ([204.57.193.76]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA06182 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:57:56 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:36:24 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: re to Horace Heffner Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Prof Conte wrote: >dear Horace,thank you again for your interest. >1- No.The electron to enter in the hyperdensum medium of the proton >must enter in the space-time of this particle.In this medium the electron >is not 0.511 mev as in the usual space time that concerns the vacuum,but >it is about 1.3 Mev:thus the electron and only the electron must have about >0.800 mev in order to penetrate inside the proton.On the other hand,no >balancing energies are required for the proton that thus may be at rest,as >we formulated in our CGSE. I see it is of calculational benefit to assume the proton at rest, but I still see no reason why it is not possible to shift reference frames. A nuclear reaction on a starship is still a nuclear reaction, whether observed on the starship or externally. For example, Bremstrahllung are generated the same, whether generated by protons hitting a target, and interacting with electrons, or electrons hitting stationary protons. It is true that the energy of the proton must be much greater to achieve the same relative velocity, the ratio being Mp/Me = 939.57/.511 = 1839/1. A test of your theory should be to bombard any solid target with (.800 MeV)(1839) = 1471 MeV. You might be able to verify your theory with a literature search, or simply by posting an inquirey on sci.physics.fusion, or one of the other physics newsgroups to see if any experiment observed anomalous neutrons when bombarding any solid target with 1471 MeV protons. >2- I do not see your problems in the experimental arrangements that I >suggested:in the case of the resonant cavity with linked the source of >microwaves,you have free protons and free electrons obtained from the >hydrogen atom,the field of the microwaves forces at frequencies about >10 ^9 or 10 ^ 10 sec-1 the protons and the elecrons to continously >invert their motion and to collide directly.The problems that you see at >this stage of the experimentation should not incide in a determinant way. If the mean collision motion is in the KeV range, you have the same extreme confinement time problems you have with conventional fusion. The protons will quickly reach the same temperature as the electrons, even though their mean velocity will be 1/839 as fast. If the mean energy is 800 KeV you have a temperature of (.8 MeV)(11600 deg. K/eV) = 9.28 x 10^9 deg. K, a very hot fusion temperature! A .8 MeV proton will have an energy of (.8E6eV)(1.602E-19J/eV)=1.282E-13J=.5(1.67E-27Kg)(v^2). So v=(1.54E14 m^2/s^2)-2=1.24E7 m/s=.04 C, on the borderline of relativistic. The electrons will be relativistic, moving at nearly C. At a frequency of 10^9 sec^-1 You would have a resonating cavity of at least .6 m across to prevent 100 percent loss of electrons due to containment vessel wall collisions. This is a very conserative estimate. To accelerate electrons to .8 MeV and bring to a stop in this distance you would need a field strength of (1.6 MeV)/(.6 m) = 2.7 MeV/m. Achieving these kinds of parameters would go far towards creating a conventional D/T fusion reactor. This does not look feasible to me. Perhaps others have suggestions, or maybe I have made a calculation error. >The other experiment is also simpler,select a radionuclide emitting >electrons with mean energy about 800 kev and incide the electrons >on Al or Berillium saturated with hydrogen and thus having the protons >at rest.The neutron should be formed. This looks like the most interresting suggestion. >3- the reaction gamma +n -----> p +e + ... No,If the neutron is constituted >by a proton and an electron the reaction should peack at the energy of >the electron (that is to say a resonance at the frequency of the electron >in the neutron):thus it should be about 800 kev. This looks difficult, from both the point of view of obtaining an adequate neutron source, and obtaining the 800 KeV energy levels from microwaves. >4-Please,in your investigations consider also the case to study experimentally >the unusual transmutations as I suggested in my previous message. >5- The problem of the anomalous effects that were observed in previous >studies on CF.I am very interested to the working group that you have >signed for me,I should appreciate in receiving the paper,could you send it >me also by fax?or in any other form according to your convenience? I have mailed all 3 articles I referred to in prior postings. [snip] Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 02:39:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA29004 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 02:29:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA28998 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 02:29:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-45.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-45.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.45]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA05515 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:27:18 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199602061027.VAA05515@tornado.netspace.net.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robin van Spaandonk" Organization: Improving To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:30:22 +0900 Subject: Re: vtx: RE: A little Bird told me... Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 5 Feb 96 at 6:07, Eugene Mallove wrote: > Scott and Robin, > > I have no additional info on the new coatings of the CETI beads, so there will > be no info in our forthcoming IE article. I assume the people getting the > transmutations will be submitting a paper to the likes of Fusion Technology. > > Gene Does anyone know if preprints of articles in FT are ever available on the preprint servers? (None of the universities in my state have a subscription to FT, and at $900.- / annum, it's a bit steep for me). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 07:17:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA01530 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 07:00:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA01492 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 07:00:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.76] ([204.57.193.76]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA02476 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 08:26:08 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 06:04:42 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Latest CETI bead recipe Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >--- FORWARDED --- >From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) >Subject: Re: vtx: Latest CETI bead recipe >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 07:22:08 -0600 (CST) > >Jed writes: >> Griggs may score a high C.O.P. breakthrough of some sort, now that he is >> working with the big guns at NASA and Georgia Tech. > >Do we have contacts directly in NASA (or GT) that will give us more info >on the trials? After all, NASA is a public institution and their results >should be open. > >-- Not if something is now classified or under review for such. A patent application could trigger a review. Such could account for the strange behavior of late. Just thought I'd mention it for the intrigue. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 07:49:19 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA07195 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 07:33:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (climate-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.251.148]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA07173 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 07:33:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.183.89.65] (macwharton.gsfc.nasa.gov) by climate.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA273470743; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 10:32:23 -0500 X-Sender: wharton@climate Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 10:34:14 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (Larry Wharton) Subject: Re: vtx: Cell Design Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >--- FORWARDED --- >From: Martin Edmund Sevior >Subject: Re: vtx: Cell Design >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:43:38 +1100 (EST) > >Lawrence Warton wrote: >> I second your thanks to Scott Little. Many investigators are interested >> including ceti. They would like to try out these beads themselves and see >> if they work. Their main concern is that improperly manufactured beads >> that do not work might cause a negative reaction. Ceti tried glass beads >> and they did work. >> > >If they want to do that why don't they just sell their beads to investigators? >We'd all be much happier with real beads. > >Martin Sevior The claim from CETI is that they will be selling their beads at a price competative with the ersatz beads. Let's hope that is true. The amount of money is small (suppose Scott Little sells 40cc's at $50./cc, that is $2000) and it is understandable that CETI was not interested. I have argued that the distribution of beads to many independent investigators could be of tremendous value to CETI if some of them are able to verify the excess energy claims. That could break this thing wide open. I think we are heading for some exciting times in the cf/whatever field. Jed Rothwell says that CETI sometimes acts in an uncooperative closed manner. This time it appears they are going to be more cooperative and open, thanks in large part to Scott Little's good work. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 07:58:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA24333 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 06:23:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA24299 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 06:23:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-157.austin.eden.com (net-1-157.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.157]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id IAA18413 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 08:23:19 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 08:23:19 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602061423.IAA18413@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Latest CETI bead recipe X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Norman said: > I would still like to see a degree of compression to ensure >continuous good contact with both electrodes. I must have missed the point a while back. I DO have compression in my cell. The end plugs are like pistons in the tubular body of the cell, sealed with O-rings. External spring clips (like what hold an automotive distributor cap on) press the two pistons together squeezing the entire contents. Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 08:08:55 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA25625 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 06:34:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA25605 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 06:34:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-157.austin.eden.com (net-1-157.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.157]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id IAA18827 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 08:34:09 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 08:34:09 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602061434.IAA18827@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Travel to Potapov X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Peter said: >I am aware that the majority of the Vortexmen is skeptical re. >the o/u character of Potapov's YUSMAR, I am not. Two pragmatical >proofs: >- he cannot sell dummies on large scale; Peter! For such a well-educated man as you, this is an incredibly naive statement :-). History is simply chock full of examples to the contrary. >-if Griggs' Hydrosonic Pump is o/u,... OK, but only IF. Despite my cynicism, I wish you well on this trip and hope that you learn wondrous things from Dr. P. Please let us know what you find there...but try to keep my concerns in mind, OK? Best Regards Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 08:10:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA10371 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 07:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA10351 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 07:49:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA04120 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Tue, 6 Feb 1996 10:48:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199602061548.AA04120@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Tue, 6 Feb 1996 10:48:44 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Stanley Date: Tue, 06 Feb 96 10:47:59 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Lawrence, what can you find out and tell us about NASA Lewis's interest and development of Stanley Myer's Hydrogen production machine? Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 08:22:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA23356 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 06:15:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA23336 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 06:15:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from gamma.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA27337; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 15:15:13 +0100 Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 15:15:13 +0100 Message-Id: <9602061415.AA27337@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: Reply to Horace Hoffner X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Horace, again,thank you for your interest and criticism. I think that with two messages,sended in the last two days to dr.Bill Page and to dr.Frolov respectively,I have totally cleared the physics and also the Story of the experiment for the neutron. 1-Have you read my file? If yes,you have seen that ,at the moment in wich the electron penetrates into the proton,we have to leave the special relativity,the Lorentz transformations,and the invariants of this theory.The proton ,as to say,represents a new space-time,a new medium that is inhomogeneous and anisotropic ,and,in addition,it has New laws of transformations respect to the usual Lorentz transforma- tions and,in particular,this medium has a new form of invariants.In other terms it changes all respect to the usual special relativity that becomes only the particular case of this general formulation,and this particular= case is the vacuum where the electron is travelling before to penetrate in the proton.Note that the new invariant,regarding the space time of the proton, depends from characyeristic functions b =3D b (..............) depending on several variables that characterize the medium in consideration.All this=20 is reported in the file. Now,on the basis of this situation,honestly,I= cannot be sure that nothing changes if we "invert" the reasoning between the electron and the proton:note that in the experiment ,the electron leaves a kind of space-time with its specific laws to enter in a new space-time with different specific laws,and in addition,an energetic requirement is asked to the electron to enter in the new medium,that one to have 800kev. I am not sure that nothing changes respect to the usual way of thinking to this things.I am still considewring the problem:you suggest me to see in literature for the "anomalous formation of neutrons".I am easy if=20 someone could give me a hand also on this point. 2-The problem of the hot fusion.In my message to dr.Frolov,I have explained the story of this experiment,I have proposed THE CLASSICAL ONE and I have proposed also the experiment that we are attempting.I can assure you that the experiment in the resonant cavity has been constructed as an= oscillator working as a klystron and not reaching those temperatures,and requiring some hundred of volts to work.All this is! For the therminology,we have cold fusion,we have ,in case,a phenomenon that in Nature occurs spontaneously(the formation of the neutron),we have the formation of a bound state as it is the case of the formation of the=20 hydrogen atom,only that the threshold energy of 800 kev is required for the electron. 3-I have reported various experiments that could be performed:we are= attempting the experiment to bombard protons at rest with electrons emitted from a radioactive source,90 Sr,and thus we agree that we are exploring the= simplest way.On the other hand,it must be so at the inital stage of an= experimentation. Of course,I am looking for other experimental groups that could repeat the same experiments because only and only if several groups will find the same results,the internatinal scientific opinion will take seriously in= consideration the Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics and its foundamental prediction that in any case,any process of cold fusion,also executed in the past time,involves and involved the formation of the neutron by p and e.I think that we will=20 not escape from this point since the usual quantum mechanics is unable to confirm the cold fusion since a generalization of this theory(the Biquaternion Quantum= =20 Mechanics is required).=20 Attention:when I say that in any case the cold fusion passes across the= forma- tion of the neutron by p and e,I do not esclude the formation of other= different bound states that the Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics predices.So I invite= you to make deeper your interest on those Bose...atoms,and to give me specific theoretical cases so to see if the Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics is able to predict their existence. 4-Also the problem of the anomalous transmutations is very important ,but I have not received the articules,please,give me some specific information. 5-Also the reaction gamma+n---> p+..... is very important,only that=20 some equivocation must be occurred:you must not use microwaves,again you need a source of gamma having the energy of 800 kev and with these=20 ganmmas you must "irradiate" the neutrons to verify if the reaction peacks at this particular value of energy.Also here you can use radioactive sources having different gammas and one source with gamma of 800 kev.If the peack does not exist,it follows that it is not true that the neutron is= constituted by p and e as instead the Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics asks. Finally,please,inform me on your interersting program ,and provide,if it is possible,to send again the articles;if you can,also by fax. Sincerely.Elio Conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 10:27:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA07541 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 10:03:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA07440 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 10:03:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.83] ([204.57.193.83]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA03525 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 11:28:56 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 09:07:27 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Reply to Horace Hoffner Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Dear Prof Conte, You wrote: [snip] >4-Also the problem of the anomalous transmutations is very important ,but I >have not received the articules,please,give me some specific information. There are hundreds of references to neutron production and transmutations in Dieter Britz's bibliography, which is available via internet. Some of the more interresting recent published articles were: "Alchemy Nightmare: Skeptic Finds Heavy Element Transmutation in Cold Fusion Experiment! Hidden 3-years...", Infinite Energy, Vol. 1 No. 2, 1995, pp 30-32. This article is a summary of the presentation of Dr. Tom Passel of EPRI at ICCF5. It discusses the work of Dr. Kevin Wolf of Taxas A&M Univerity, who found low levels of neutrons, and that some of his cathodes emitted gammas after electrolysis of heavy water. The gamma spectra were published. Ten radionuciotides were found. The article discusses several hypotheses for how such transmutations could be formed in Pd at low voltage electrolysis. "Low Energy Transmutation Conference at Texas A&M", Infinite Energy, Vol 1. No. 1, 1995, pp 8-11, which includes summaries of various presentations at the conference, including: Dr. T. Ohmori, "Iron formation in Gold and Palladium Electrodes", Fe produced in Au electrode proportioal to excess heat (Note!) using sodium sulphate electrolyte at .5M concentration. The ratio of FE-57 to Fe-54 was not in the natural range. Dr. J. Dash, "Microanalysis of Pd Cathodes after Electrolysis in Aqueous Acids", SEM analysis revealed Ag and Cd present at active sites, as well as concentrations of Au spikes in both H2O and D2O cells using H2SO4 electolyte. ALso, 50 h electrolysis of Ti cathode produced Cr, Fe, and Ca. Dr. R. Bush, "Electrolytically Stimulated Cold Nuclear Synthesis of Strontium from Rubidium" showed by mass spectroscopy that Sr was created from Rb present in Ni electrode. Hypothesised via p capture. Dr. R. Notoya, "Low Temperature Nuclear Change of Alkalai Metallic Ions Caused by Electrolysis", showed K->Ca, Cs-133 -> ?134, and Na-23 -> Na24. Dr. T. Mizuno, "Analysis of Elements for Solid state Electrolyte in Deuterium Atmosphere During Applied Electric Field" - a mixture of Sr, Ce, Nb ond O2 produced Al, Bi, Sm,Gd, and Dy, detected using SIM. Used A/C field and temp of 400 - 700 deg. C. If you have not done so, I suggest sending $49.95 US to subscribe to Infinite Energy. You can also get the back 4 issues for $49.95 US. There is a wealth of information in these back 4 issues. I don't think I should FAX or mail all that stuff due to copywrite law violation. The address is: Infinite Energy Magazine P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 If you have difficulty obtaining Dieter Britz's bibliography I will be happy to assist. >5-Also the reaction gamma+n---> p+..... is very important,only that >some equivocation must be occurred:you must not use microwaves,again >you need a source of gamma having the energy of 800 kev and with these >ganmmas you must "irradiate" the neutrons to verify if the reaction peacks >at this particular value of energy.Also here you can use radioactive sources >having different gammas and one source with gamma of 800 kev.If the peack >does not exist,it follows that it is not true that the neutron is constituted >by p and e as instead the Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics asks. [snip] My apologies! Yes, of course, you are right about the gammas. I don't know why I still had microwaves in mind. Sometimes I think my brain must fall asleep while I type! I will be glad to assist by posting a request in various newsgroups for information about n production from 1451 MeV protons. I will post copies of responses. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 6 19:02:25 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA22487 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:50:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA22458 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id VAA10691; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:49:07 -0500 Date: 06 Feb 96 16:53:45 EST From: Dean Miller <75110.3417@compuserve.com> To: vortex list Subject: Re: vtx: Latest CETI bead recipe Message-ID: <960206215345_75110.3417_CHK75-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi John, >> Do we have contacts directly in NASA (or GT) that will give us more info on the trials? After all, NASA is a public institution and their results should be open. << One of the section leaders in the Encounters forum on CompuServe is a mathematician at NASA Huntsville. I've asked her to see if she can find out anything about the Griggs test. Dean -- from Des Moines From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 00:21:57 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA22131 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 00:08:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA22109 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 00:08:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA22670; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 09:08:41 +0100 Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 09:08:41 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Reply to Horace Hoffner In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Horace Heffner wrote: > >Dear Prof Conte, > > You wrote: > [snip] > >4-Also the problem of the anomalous transmutations is very important ,but I > >have not received the articules,please,give me some specific information. > > > There are hundreds of references to neutron production and transmutations > in Dieter Britz's bibliography, which is available via internet. > > Some of the more interresting recent published articles were: [...] Here follows a number of articles, mostly (all?) from the magazine Infinite Energy. The above might give the impression that my bibliography contains them; it does not. Excellent though these articles may be (I do not get this magazine), I only include papers in scientific journals, like it or not (I like it, some of you don't). [...] > > If you have difficulty obtaining Dieter Britz's bibliography I will be > happy to assist. As Kurt Vonnegut once wrote (as a comment on critics who find interpretations of his works) "I am here to be asked". You can get it by ftp from the site vm1.nodak.edu, cd to fusion and do a dir fusion.cnf-* to see what there is. Within about a month or so, all this will be on www right here and I'll let everybody know. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 00:48:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA22377 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 16:17:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA22333 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 16:16:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA22538; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 19:12:33 -0500 Date: 06 Feb 96 19:11:02 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: Latest CETI bead recipe Message-ID: <960207001101_100060.173_JHB98-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, >> External spring clips (like what hold an automotive distributor cap on) press the two pistons together squeezing the entire contents. << Sorry, I must have missed that - couldn't be better!!! Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 03:08:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA09036 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 02:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA09025 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 02:53:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id FAA13895; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 05:52:38 -0500 Date: 07 Feb 96 05:49:07 EST From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: ABC TV to cover Cold Fusion Today (2/7) Message-ID: <960207104906_76570.2270_FHU36-5@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians: There will be MAJOR coverage of cold fusion and CETI (Clean Energy Technologies, Inc. and the Patterson Power Cell) today (Feb. 7) on ABC TV. It will be covered on Good Morning America around 8:15 a.m. and there will be a full Nightline program tonight. Also, it *may* appear on ABC Evening News. But GMA and Nightline are definites. Gene Eugene F. Mallove, Sc.D., Editor-in-Chief INFINITE ENERGY: Cold Fusion and New Energy Technnology Cold Fusion Technology P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Fax: 603-224-5975 Phone: 603-228-4516 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 07:17:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA16676 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 06:45:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA16642 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 06:45:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id GAA10061; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 06:44:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 06:44:58 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Subject: Re: vtx: Cell Design Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: Martin Edmund Sevior Subject: Re: vtx: Cell Design To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:10:23 +1100 (EST) Lawrence Wharton wrote: > > The claim from CETI is that they will be selling their beads at a price > competative with the ersatz beads. Let's hope that is true. The amount of > money is small (suppose Scott Little sells 40cc's at $50./cc, that is > $2000) and it is understandable that CETI was not interested. I have > argued that the distribution of beads to many independent investigators > could be of tremendous value to CETI if some of them are able to verify the > excess energy claims. That could break this thing wide open. I think we > are heading for some exciting times in the cf/whatever field. Jed Rothwell > says that CETI sometimes acts in an uncooperative closed manner. This time > it appears they are going to be more cooperative and open, thanks in large > part to Scott Little's good work. > That's great news if true. I won't believe it till the beads are in my hands though. Scott, Jed and I have all been burned by CETI saying one thing then changing their minds later. Eariler we'd been informed that under no circumstances would they sell beads to investigators. Now they will! It's all very strange. I for one will continue to plan to investigate Scott's ersatz beads. At the very least it be very interesting to compare the performance with CETI beads and there's no reason to believe CETI will follow through given their past behaviour. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 07:24:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA17561 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 06:50:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA17522 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 06:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id GAA10291; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 06:50:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 06:50:04 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Cell Design Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: Martin Edmund Sevior Subject: Re: vtx: Cell Design To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:43:38 +1100 (EST) Lawrence Warton wrote: > I second your thanks to Scott Little. Many investigators are interested > including ceti. They would like to try out these beads themselves and see > if they work. Their main concern is that improperly manufactured beads > that do not work might cause a negative reaction. Ceti tried glass beads > and they did work. > If they want to do that why don't they just sell their beads to investigators? We'd all be much happier with real beads. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 07:40:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA21997 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 07:16:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA21983 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 07:16:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id HAA11807; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 07:16:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 07:16:20 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Real alchemy Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Take a look at http://www.netzone.com. Joe Champion, an infamous alchemist featured in Tesla Society EXTRAORDINARY SCIENCE, is selling precious metals created by chemical transmutation! .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 07:40:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA16191 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 06:42:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA16146 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 06:41:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id GAA09590; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 06:41:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 06:41:42 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: separators Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: My .02 dollars: as a "conductive" separator, filter paper is fairly inert, and there are various types. Does any common technique exist for suppressing O2 gas production at the anode of an electrolysis cell? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty billb@eskimo.com vortex-L,freenrg-list,taoshum-L,webhead-L EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 voice:206-781-3320 SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 08:24:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA02343 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 08:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA02307 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 08:03:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA05696; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 17:03:53 +0100 Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 17:03:53 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: separators In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, William Beaty wrote: > > .> My .02 dollars: as a "conductive" separator, filter paper is fairly inert, > and there are various types. > > Does any common technique exist for suppressing O2 gas production > at the anode of an electrolysis cell? Yes: O2 is produced from the oxidation of water. If you provide another, more easily oxidisable substance, you can avoid O2. E.g. a sacrificial anode like Ni etc, or something in solution. In the bad old days we used to use sodium sulphite to eliminate oxygen from solution, and no doubt that would do the job. BUT: in all cases, just as with O2 evolution, you get products that you don't want getting to your cathode. The answer is to divide the cell so that this can't happen. If you do, then you can live with the O2 anyway. You need a membrane of some sort. This can be, e.g. a thin slice of glass frit, or - getting more fancy - an ion exchange membrane. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 10:52:25 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA09126 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA09082 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:19:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c1p0.aa.net (s3c1p0.aa.net [204.157.220.140]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA04909 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:18:52 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602071818.KAA04909@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 10:18:17 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Real alchemy Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:16 AM 2/7/96 -0800, you wrote: > >Take a look at http://www.netzone.com. Joe Champion, an infamous >alchemist featured in Tesla Society EXTRAORDINARY SCIENCE, is selling >precious metals created by chemical transmutation! > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > yeah so I did and can't find him anywhere reaonable after doing find on several pages....WHERE OH WHERE did the little dog go??? ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 10:50:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA08189 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA07855 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:13:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.65] ([204.57.193.65]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA09871 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:39:09 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 09:17:17 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: vtx: Re: Do 1450 MeV protons create neutrons? Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Below are some responses to my inquirey re: 1450 MeV protons: X-POP3-Rcpt: hheffner@anc From: MCLEAN@LNS62.LNS.CORNELL.EDU Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 03:07:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: relativistic kinematics To: hheffner@anc.ak.net MIME-version: 1.0 Assuming you refer to an electron of energy 800 KeV, taking 511 KeV/c**2 as the electrons rest mass this yields a momentum, of SQRT(800**2-511**2)=615KeV/c and therefore a 4-vector: pe=(E,pc,0,0)=(800,615,0,0) colliding this with a proton at rest (which given a mass of 938272 keV/c**2) has a 4-vector of pP(E,pc,0,0)=(938272,0,0,0) since a particle at rest has, by definition, momentum, p, =0. Adding the 2 4-vectors yields a 4-vector of the colliding system pX=(800+938272,615,0,0)=(939072,615,0,0) calculating the mass of the system SQRT(E**2-P**2) MA=SQRT(939072**2-615**2)=939072 Anyway, this is pretty close in mass to the proton... LEAR (low energy anti proton ring) at CERN has looked at beam energies that low, but there is no evidence for an elementary state in that region. Since it is so close in energy to the proton I imagine it would also play merry hell with things like X-ray spectra (k-shell capture) and stuff in atomic spectra. After all, QM being what it is the electrons in any atom spend some fraction of their time inside the nucleus... Ken McLean, Carleton University >Mr. Heffner, > >If 1450 MeV protons produced neutral particles of the kind you are >talking about, they couldn't be observed. When protons above about 10 >MeV strike ANY material, there is a big burst of genuine neutrons that >is produced by nuclear breakup, usually more neutrons than the number >of incoming protons, because of cascade effects. This is why they have >thick concrete shields around accelerators. I haven't heard about >theelecrton bound to a proton but a nuclear cascade is the worst place >to look for one. > >Sincerely, > >H.B. Knowles > Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 18:30:08 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA08177 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 17:59:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA08109 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 17:58:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id RAA19166; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 17:58:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 17:58:46 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Real alchemy Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: steckly.gary@ic.gc.ca (Steckly, Gary: DGRB) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com (vortex-l) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 15:16:34 -0500 Subject: Re: vtx: Real alchemy Try this url Michael http://www.netzone.com/~discpub/ He is offering a 50 g sample of his "synthetic" product (a combination of Pt and Au) providing you agree to share the results of your analysis with him. Does anyone here know more about this chap? If I were him, I'd be in my basement cranking this stuff out by the ton...not selling a "how to" guide on the net for $69.95 He makes some interesting claims on his web page. For example: >"How do we know (or prove) that the metals are produced from >such a process?" >This is simple. Platinum, as found in nature, has six isotopes. >The platinum produced by the process I developed only has >three, which are: 194, 195 and 196. Mass >spectroscopy analysis quickly verifies my claims of synthesized >origin. " Not being a metalurgist myself, does this make any sense? regards Gary ---------- From: vortex-l To: vortex-l Subject: Re: vtx: Real alchemy Date: February 8, 1996 10:18 Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com At 07:16 AM 2/7/96 -0800, you wrote: > >Take a look at http://www.netzone.com. Joe Champion, an infamous >alchemist featured in Tesla Society EXTRAORDINARY SCIENCE, is selling >precious metals created by chemical transmutation! > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > yeah so I did and can't find him anywhere reaonable after doing find on several pages....WHERE OH WHERE did the little dog go??? ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 18:39:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA10065 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 18:09:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA09998 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 18:09:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id SAA19699; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 18:06:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 18:06:53 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Real alchemy Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: lee02016@acad.suffolk.edu Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:47:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: vtx: Real alchemy To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Take a look at http://www.netzone.com. Joe Champion, an infamous > alchemist featured in Tesla Society EXTRAORDINARY SCIENCE, is selling > precious metals created by chemical transmutation! > > .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. > William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 Hi Bill: How would we know that that the metals were actually created that way. Is there any way to tell the difference between natural gold and alchemically transmuted gold? He would have to be selling it for a LOT less. If he wasn't, I'd be wary of a scam. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 7 22:20:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA23385 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 22:08:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA23351 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 22:08:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c3p5.aa.net (s1c0p7.aa.net [204.157.220.171]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA17620 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 22:05:44 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602080605.WAA17620@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 22:08:03 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Real alchemy Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:58 PM 2/7/96 -0800, you wrote: >--- FORWARDED --- >From: steckly.gary@ic.gc.ca (Steckly, Gary: DGRB) >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com (vortex-l) >Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 15:16:34 -0500 >Subject: Re: vtx: Real alchemy > > >Try this url Michael > >http://www.netzone.com/~discpub/ > >He is offering a 50 g sample of his "synthetic" product (a combination of Pt >and Au) providing you agree to share the results of your analysis with him. > >Does anyone here know more about this chap? If I were him, I'd be in my >basement cranking this stuff out by the ton...not selling a "how to" guide >on the net for $69.95 >He makes some interesting claims on his web page. For example: > Okay, I checked it out. Very interesting. What he is saying there is very consistent with the way he was talking about a year and a half ago. At that time he mentioned to me that he was refining a pilot plant operation in the Houston area. He claimed then that its operations would be the final proof. He was also attempting to produce gold in the Arizona area but apparently that has not proved up. Platinum series is tricky stuff. Unless you know your chemistry and minerals, platinum series is easily missed by laypeople and hobbyists. I believe in retrospect that Keller's process was also producing more platinum series than gold, but Keller missed it because he was looking for gold. Gold is fairly easy to figure out although it also hides inside of silver, nickel and copper. Platinum series hides its presence inside of all the other metals and can only be seperated out by precise, special methodologies. Champion told me then that he wanted to make some money but not by attempting to control the production and markets, like the old oligarchy. He felt that control was impossible anyway, that the alchemy cat was out of the box and would change physics, better to make money contributing to the overt change than trying to control things in secret. He also felt that taking the traditional academic route was a big waste of time. Better to just do it. It is no more than an open secret at this point. And, these operations are expensive in their tooling. This is not hobby electronics. It takes capital and Joe hit somewhere below the bottom a few years back. I don't know how badly he was hit, but he was down. You'll have to ask him for his story on that. How to recapitalize? Approach the oligarchy? Approach vulture capitalists? Joe did it all and those people, as many people have found out, are simply too damn weird to deal with. You see, established players with genuine power see the fringe wannabes as "weird" (not fitting the paradigm)and highly probable of being either crazy, mistaken, or crooked. In seeing the fringe that way and treating it that way, they, the established players, behave in ways that are in fact "weird". Joe did not help his own cause when an experimental demo to part of the gold oligarchy reportedly failed. He wasnt ready and was apparently a little too cocksure. Non-exlusive licesnsing to small groups and information selling are the two viable avenues for generating new capital. That is apparantly the path he has chosen. These comments are primarly interpretive. I do not speak for Champion nor do I know him. I have his books, and I've talked with him on the phone a couple of times, and I have talked with several other people who have had situational relationships with him, including Keller, Bockris, and Monte. I am trying to provide a positive perspective and allow Champion to prove himself. Bockris and Monte know much more about Champion than I do, if you want more information from third parties. Since Champion is apparantly email capable, consider inviting him to speak for himself on vortex or free energy. This subject, however, will generate a lot of email flow, whether valuable or not. Frankly, the energy stuff is more important by far at this time. In the meantime, I have queried him. Please advise me immediately if you subscribe him on the board. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 00:12:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA11563 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 23:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA11549 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 23:54:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA11616; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 08:54:46 +0100 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 08:54:46 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Real alchemy In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, William Beaty wrote: [...] > He is offering a 50 g sample of his "synthetic" product (a combination of Pt > and Au) providing you agree to share the results of your analysis with him. > > Does anyone here know more about this chap? If I were him, I'd be in my > basement cranking this stuff out by the ton...not selling a "how to" guide > on the net for $69.95 I believe this is the bloke who talked Bockris into doing this sort of thing. The way I have it, the process worked only when he himself was doing it, behind closed doors. Very very scientific. > He makes some interesting claims on his web page. For example: > > >"How do we know (or prove) that the metals are produced from > >such a process?" > >This is simple. Platinum, as found in nature, has six isotopes. > >The platinum produced by the process I developed only has > >three, which are: 194, 195 and 196. Mass > >spectroscopy analysis quickly verifies my claims of synthesized > >origin. " > > Not being a metalurgist myself, does this make any sense? He has the right sort of idea and until you check your facts, this sounds good. Most elements come distributed over several isotopes, with very constant ratios all over the Earth. So if you were to find an element with a significantly different distribution, you'd know that something special is happening. The problem here is that while it is true that Pt has 6 isotopes, in fact the 3 most abundant are 194, 195 and 196 with resp. 32.9, 33.8 and 25.3% natural abundance (I get these figures from the excellent "The Elements" by John Emsley). The other 3 are 190 (0.01%), 192 (0.79%) and 198 (7.2%). I guess the last one might be what he is talking about - if it were missing, for example, this would indicate something special. It would depend on how sensitively you can measure the distribution. He is likely betting on people finding only the three main ones anyway. I don't know what this fellow proposes as the "reaction" that makes Pt, but in general, you make one element from another. The feed element would have its own isotope distribution, and this would be reflected in the product and likely be quite different from that product's normal distribution. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 01:09:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA19925 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 00:54:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA19899 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 00:54:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.65] ([204.57.193.65]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA14432 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 02:20:50 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 23:58:43 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: ABC TV to cover Cold Fusion Today (2/7) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Vortexians: > >There will be MAJOR coverage of cold fusion and CETI (Clean Energy >Technologies, Inc. and the Patterson Power Cell) today (Feb. 7) on ABC TV. It >will be covered on Good Morning America around 8:15 a.m. and there will be a >full Nightline program tonight. Also, it *may* appear on ABC Evening News. But >GMA and Nightline are definites. > > >Gene > >Eugene F. Mallove, Sc.D., Editor-in-Chief >INFINITE ENERGY: Cold Fusion I just saw nightline. Having read his book, it was a thrill to watch Huizenga twitch and squirm during his interview/debate. I felt sorry for him though. He must have been absolutely blind sided, not keeping up on developments. What a shock it must have been for him! Life is just getting tougher for skeptics these days. With positive coverage like ABC's, a cheap educational kit is beginning to seem less important for getting interest up. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 02:03:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA01643 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:09:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA01377 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:07:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.65] ([204.57.193.76]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA10478 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:33:04 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:11:11 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Real alchemy Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >yeah so I did and can't find him anywhere reaonable after doing find on >several pages....WHERE OH WHERE did the little dog go??? >____________________________________ >MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing >Michael Mandeville, publisher Try: http://www.netzone.com/~discpub Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 02:04:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA22379 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 16:35:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU [128.250.50.83]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA22097 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 16:32:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msevior@localhost) by liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id LAA27002; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 11:31:42 +1100 From: Martin Edmund Sevior Message-Id: <199602080031.LAA27002@liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU> Subject: vtx: A videotape of the nightline program? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 11:31:41 +1100 (EST) Cc: msevior@liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (Martin Edmund Sevior) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Everyone, Can someone please videotape the nightline episode and mail it to me? I promise to pay all expenses. My address in Australia (i'm back home again) is: Martin Sevior School of Physics Unversity of Melbourne Parkville, Vic. 3052 Australia Thanks veru much. Martin PS. send me an email in case I get more than 1 offer! From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 02:14:34 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA14072 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 21:15:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA14013 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 21:15:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c3p5.aa.net (s1c3p5.aa.net [204.157.220.193]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA14264 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 21:11:38 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602080511.VAA14264@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 21:13:49 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: ABC TV to cover Cold Fusion Today (2/7) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:49 AM 2/7/96 EST, you wrote: >Vortexians: > >There will be MAJOR coverage of cold fusion and CETI (Clean Energy >Technologies, Inc. and the Patterson Power Cell) today (Feb. 7) on ABC TV. It >will be covered on Good Morning America around 8:15 a.m. and there will be a >full Nightline program tonight. Also, it *may* appear on ABC Evening News. But >GMA and Nightline are definites. > > >Gene > Thanks for the timely post on this. Gene, are you aware of Bill Muller's work? ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 02:19:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA14011 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 18:30:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA13820 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 18:29:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-114.austin.eden.com (net-1-114.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.114]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id UAA19969 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 20:29:24 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 20:29:24 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602080229.UAA19969@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Real alchemy X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Try this url Michael > >http://www.netzone.com/~discpub/ > >He is offering a 50 g sample of his "synthetic" product (a combination of Pt >and Au) providing you agree to share the results of your analysis with him. If someone is willing to obtain a sample from the guy, I'm willing to perform non-destructive x-ray fluorescence analysis and return the sample unharmed. XRF will provide POSITIVE confirmation of the Pt and Au as well as a pretty good quantitative analysis if the sample is an actual alloy (or if the matrix is known). - Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 02:24:23 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA16790 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 18:46:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA16682 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 18:45:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id SAA22355; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 18:45:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 18:45:11 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Barker Radioactivity effect Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Feb 7, 1996 From: To: vortex-L Subject: Barker radioactivity effect Electrostatic Excitation as decribed by William A Barker. Paraphrased by Braider to describe actual experimental proceedure conducted from Nov 20 1994 to present [Jan 20 1996] 1) a small mildly radioactive mineral specimen was used. It is described as a type of periclase and is possibly radium or strontium isotope substituted. Activity to hand held counter is described as similar to a pop corn popper. Fairly rapid counts but not extreme. 2) a Van de Graff generator was modified as follows: a) Belt was removed. b) 1/2 inch hole was cut in sphere, about half way up the side. hole was de burred. c) A small stage was built in the sphere out of wood and carboard so that the top of the platform, or stage, was even with the bottom of the hole in the side of the sphere. d) periclase sample has wrapped in plastic and cloth and struck with the obligatory open end wrench in the best style and conformance with Cavendish lab ethic. e) app. 2 mm by 2 mm by 0.7 mm "chip" was folded into small piece of 2 mil polyethylene film and secured with standard spring type wooden clothes pin. f) hand held counter was rigged with rubber band and nut to hold down the press to run spring loaded momentary contact switch so as to be able to run counted continuously. g) nine volt battery clip was used to connect the counted to bench supply and lead wired were run down Van de Graff tube with counter in sphere next to sample so as to get nice "popcorn" count. h) silicone rubber insulated high voltage wire was also run from contact point INSIDE of sphere, through the plastic tube that used to house the belt to the negative side of a 40 Kilo Volt Glassman rack mount high voltage power supply. The positive side of the supply was conveyed by silicone rubber insulated HV cable to a 2" sphere mounted on horizontal glass rod about 2" from hole on outside of sphere. i) sample is JUST INSIDE of the hole. j) no arcing occurs ... it is not supposed to .... just strong field gradient from inside sphere [zero volts] to outside sphere [40 KV].. over the space of the wall thickness of the sphere ... which is about 20 gauge spun aluminum. k) field was applied for 14 hours and then there WAS NO FURTHER APPLCATION OF FIELD ... ever ... at all. None. Just the 14 hours. l) counts are now down to about background level. This is posted to allow you to duplicate the work. Please read Barker's patent. This will make everything clear as to mechanical and electrical set up of experiment. The theory and math are in the patent too. This is NOT posted to start some long winded, or short winded huffing match .... or to argue. Do the experiment and THEN report results as you have recorded them. This take at least a year for reuslts to manifest ....so it is kind of like breeding cows. Suggestion: Have a mineral speciment known to have some type of alpha emission radio dated by a GOOD geo radio dating lab .... have them wark the sample ... photograph is ... saw it in half .... have it marked, dated and photographed again ... so that EVERYONE is very clear there can be no mistake. Expose to 50 KV for 12 to 14 hours. Wait one year. Have it dated again. This is a quick and easy thing to .... you could probably run up 10 or 20 if you wanted. Braider From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 02:31:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA14203 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 21:16:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA14085 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 21:15:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c3p5.aa.net (s1c3p5.aa.net [204.157.220.193]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA14304 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 21:12:39 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602080512.VAA14304@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 21:14:50 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Real alchemy Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:06 PM 2/7/96 -0800, you wrote: >--- FORWARDED --- >From: lee02016@acad.suffolk.edu >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:47:23 -0500 (EST) >Subject: Re: vtx: Real alchemy >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > >> Take a look at http://www.netzone.com. Joe Champion, an infamous >> alchemist featured in Tesla Society EXTRAORDINARY SCIENCE, is selling >> precious metals created by chemical transmutation! >> >> .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >> William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 > >Hi Bill: > How would we know that that the metals were actually created that >way. Is there any way to tell the difference between natural gold and >alchemically transmuted gold? you can't unless it has NOT GONE THROUGH A SMELTER. Then you could tell by characteristic "signature" of the other elements which are likely to be present. Unsmelted alchemical gold is likely to have the platinum series alloyed with with, as well as some silver and copper. My suspecion is that it is very likely to be similar to gold nuggets. He would have to be selling it for a LOT >less. If he wasn't, I'd be wary of a scam. If I could prove that for certain that the gold was alchemical, I would pay substantially more for it at this time. Collector's value. Won't loose, if date and source could be authenticated. I have a sample of manmade silver, but can't authenticate it because it was done on the qt. It was created via neutron bombardment. Thus, although it is a personal momento, it is worth not much which is okay by me because that is what I paid for it. As far as alchemical gold is concerned, making it by the ton by all accounts is a formidable engineering task. Making it by the ounce is far more likely. Based on my interface over the years with many highly knowledgeable people, I think that it is highly probable that alchemical gold is being produced on a steady basis and is carefully introduced into the world market. The last thing you would want to tell anybody, if you had the technology to produce significant quantities, is that you have the technology, ie, you are making gold. That would destroy the world market. This really is a case of those who know, do, and those who don't know, talk. Champion may be an exception (he is a very presentable guy) because he got his ass in a real sling and it may be that the only way he could get out of it was to sell information publicly. This is my interpretation of events which swirled around him. By Champion's own admission, at least several months back, his public information is okay as far as it goes but it does not tell the whole story. The cook always has more knowledge than he writes for the published receipe, so that the cook can always out perform anybody who uses it. There may be another interpretation as well. There have been reports by highly credible people of MIB's in the gold scene. Certain people have been warned bluntly not to pop up as successful alchemists. Champion's personal situation became so vulnerable (I will let him tell his own story) he may have figured that the best cover was to go public with a very tendencious process which is not very efficient and at least get the story out and make himself sufficiently visable that it would be detrimental to silence him. The price of gold as you should know is sharply controlled by a very small planetary oligarchy. There is absolutely nothing random about its price fluctations. The limited variability of the price is caused by the pressure of people who do not know... But the cat is out of the bag now..All of the cold fusion researchers who have bothered to look are discovering a shift in the elements of their electrodes, ie, cold alchemy. There are now so many reports that it is becoming less of a rumor and more of an established fact. The oligarchy simply could not anticipate this and cannot control the rippling consequences. So the only thing left is for short term profits. In the long run I suspect the cost of the precious metals will continually erode to equal some point which reflects the energy costs which go into its creation. If anyone is interested, I know the exact technology pathway which is the most elegant. I can point to it in one word, through one book, and through one validating experiment, all buried and forgotten because the timing was wrong. However, the price of this information is pretty expensive...The technology setup to do it properly isn't cheap either. Very little chemistry. Mostly very sophisticated em. Under certain circumstances, I will share this information. All the primary conceptions of 20th century chemistry and physics are going to go through a fundamental rewrite during the next twenty years. Infinite Energy, to quote Mallove, and Malleable Atoms, ala alchemy, will become the basis of an entirely different type of civilization. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 02:31:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA17575 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:59:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA17431 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA14783; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:29:43 -0500 Date: 07 Feb 96 12:17:12 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Transcript of ABC GMA Message-ID: <960207171711_72240.1256_EHB115-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Transcript of ABC's Good Morning America program, February 7, 1996, 8:16 - 8:22 a.m. A Report on Clean Energy Technology Inc. (CETI) Cold Fusion Device Charlie: "Scientists discover a virtually limitless source of energy." Does it sound too good to be true? Maybe not. Our Science editor Michael Guillen is down in Washington this morning, having an exclusive look at an invention which has the potential of changing our lives. Michael? Guillen: Thanks, Charlie. It's a device that its inventor says produces a hundred times more energy than it consumes. Now let me say right off the bat that lots of ideas come across my desk, that claim to be the energy source of the future, but this one is different. For one thing, the inventor has a distinguished track record. Second, the invention itself has been issued a patent by the US Patent Office. Furthermore, and this is key, independent scientists now claim to have reproduced the results, and major corporations like Motorola are taking a serious interest in it. So, is this potentially the greatest discovery since electricity? Since fire? Good question! Have a look. [Brief interviews] James Reding, president Clean Energy Technologies Inc: We've been able to reliably demonstrate a device that produces a thousand times more energy out than you put into it. Prof. George Miley, University of Illinois: What could it do as far as an electric power plant or a water heater in your home? There are so many applications that the mind can run wild. Dr. C. Quinton Bowles, University of Missouri: It would be a true source of power for use by the general public. Guillen: It's hard to believe, but here's what is causing all the commotion. It doesn't look like much - some wires, some salt water, and at the core of it: this container of tiny beads. But these are no ordinary beads, and the man who invented them is no ordinary person. [Interview with James Patterson in his laboratory] Patterson: I started making beads back in 1953. Guillen: 74-year-old James Patterson looks about as homespun as his device, working out of a large garage in Sarasota, Florida, with more than a hundred patents to his credit. Patterson had always planned on being a chemistry professor but in 1951, while working for his PhD at Berkeley, Dow Chemical made him an offer he couldn't refuse. Patterson: Dow hired me before I graduated, got my degree. And they paid me more than what I was going to get after I got my degree. So . . . Guillen: It was during his years with Dow that Patterson invented a recipe for making tiny beads, beads so perfectly round that few people in the world can duplicate them. Patterson: If I have a claim to fame, [laughs] I'm a good cook for little beads. Well, this is my storage area, and - it's almost like a library of what I've done. Guillen: Over the years, Patterson's beads have been used in many different ways: in water purifiers, cosmetics, even as the 'talcum powder' inside surgical gloves. Patterson: I'm better than a millionaire. Guillen: Just because of the money you got from . . . Patterson: . . . little beads! [laughs] I have converted alchemy ... little beads into gold! Guillen: Talk about alchemy! In creating his new energy device, Patterson took his regular beads, and coated them with thin layers of copper, nickel and palladium; a metal sandwich Patterson claims works like magic. Patterson: This is the guts of it, this is creating heat. Guillen: So this is water that you have flowing through it. [Feels outlet tube.] Oh, it is hot. Pretty warm! Yeah. And so how much energy is this little cell putting out, compared to what it's consuming? Patterson: One watt. It's consuming only one watt, and it's putting out two hundred watts. Guillen: You know this sounds too good to be true? Patterson: [Laughs] Well, it may sound too good to be true, but if you'll only look, the scientific evidence is here. I mean, you're looking at it. I mean, you can't disavow what you're looking at. [Cut back to studio] Charlie: Michael, alright, we're looking at it, but how's it working? Guillen: Well, you know, even for a scientist like myself, you can't just tell by looking or even touching it. That's where the other scientists come in, at the University of Missouri, the University of Illinois, and at Motorola. They have tested dozens of these devices, they say they can't get it not to work. Every time you plug it in, the doggone thing just produces all this excess heat. Charlie: But what's going on, scientifically? M.G.: Well, that's the big mystery. It's either, you know, an ordinary chemical reaction that's not behaving the way we expect it to, or some kind of a nuclear reaction. But there is no radioactivity that's evident from this thing so it doesn't appear to be a nuclear reaction. It's neither one nor the other, so it really is just a genuine mystery right now. Charlie: Michael, what you are telling me is you have a scientific experiment that is producing a certain result and you have no idea how it's producing it. Guillen: Yeah, but that's not unusual. I mean, very often times you run across something in the laboratory and you go 'wow! Look what it's doing' long before you understand why it's doing that. Charlie: Michael, this sounds like going back to 19 . . . what? 1989 Guillen: 1989 Charlie: This sounds like the cold fusion debate again. Guillen: Yeah. Remember the University of Utah, the whole cold fusion thing? Superficially this looks like cold fusion, in the sense that you have electricity passing through an electrode that is emersed in salt water. But there are essential technical differences. First of all the beads make this cell absolutely unique. That wasn't like the original cold fusion device. The other thing is that the original cold fusion device used heavy water, this uses ordinary water. So, it remains to be seen whether this is just a variation of the old cold fusion experiment or whether this is genuinely a new phenomena. Charlie: Is there an anticipation that what is taking place here in microcosm can take place in a macro situation where you can produce a tremendous amount of energy? Guillen: Now *that* is going to be the key question. If the scientists at the independent universities and corporations continue to verify that this device seems to work, the next question is going to be: can you scale it up from this laboratory model into something that can be mass produced, and be cost efficient. Because we have heard other alternative energy like wind power and solar power, they also sound great but they have never become cost efficient. That's going to be the big question in the future. Charlie: You keep saying 'if this works.' You are telling me that a number of scientists have been able to make it work. There are also a bunch of other scientists who are saying this is just crazy. Guillen: Yeah. The scientists are really cautious because of the old cold fusion flap six years ago. They want to be real cautious. The question is here, you have to measure the temperature differences, how much of the heat is putting out . . . is being put out by this device. That requires you to use thermometers of various kinds. They are just double, triple and quadruple checking those thermometers to make sure they are not misreading them. But they are all saying yes, this seems to work as advertised. So it's potentially historic. Charlie: Five seconds: are you a believer or not? Guillen: Uh, talk to me in about two or three months. We're going to be updating this. Charlie: All right. Michael thanks. Michael will have more of this on Nightline, tonight. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 02:41:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA01647 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 02:31:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA01636 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 02:31:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c1p7.aa.net (s3c0p0.aa.net [204.157.220.132]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA31556 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 02:31:02 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602081031.CAA31556@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 02:30:30 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: ABC TV to cover Cold Fusion Today (2/7) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:58 PM 2/7/96 -0900, you wrote: >>Vortexians: >> >>There will be MAJOR coverage of cold fusion and CETI (Clean Energy >>Technologies, Inc. and the Patterson Power Cell) today (Feb. 7) on ABC TV. It >>will be covered on Good Morning America around 8:15 a.m. and there will be a >>full Nightline program tonight. Also, it *may* appear on ABC Evening News. But >>GMA and Nightline are definites. >> >> >>Gene >> >>Eugene F. Mallove, Sc.D., Editor-in-Chief >>INFINITE ENERGY: Cold Fusion > >I just saw nightline. Having read his book, it was a thrill to watch >Huizenga twitch and squirm during his interview/debate. I felt sorry for >him though. He must have been absolutely blind sided, not keeping up on >developments. What a shock it must have been for him! Life is just >getting tougher for skeptics these days. > >With positive coverage like ABC's, a cheap educational kit is beginning to >seem less important for getting interest up. > > >Regards, > PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 >Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 > > I didn't learn a thing except how far out to lunch Huizenga is. Yes he certainly did twitch, on every comment he made which he knew was highly debatable by formidable opponents. Run it again and watch what he twitches over. Yes, the coverage is excellently useful. The big media ice jam is obviously thawing out. First England, then WSJ, then ABC, then slowly the rest until suddenly this stuff will be hot again. Notice the flow. In six months the media will be solmnly telling us what experts they are on what is happening in the field! They never learn. American Big Media is about as astute as dogshit. But sometimes they are useful. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 03:13:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA04115 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 03:01:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA04109 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 03:01:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id GAA00875; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 06:00:25 -0500 Date: 08 Feb 96 05:58:34 EST From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Real Alchemy Message-ID: <960208105833_76570.2270_FHU33-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott wrote: "If someone is willing to obtain a sample from the guy, I'm willing to perform non-destructive x-ray fluorescence analysis and return the sample unharmed. XRF will provide POSITIVE confirmation of the Pt and Au as well as a pretty good quantitative analysis if the sample is an actual alloy (or if the matrix is known)." Champion called me a week or so ago (the first time I had ever talked to him) and said he would send me one of these Pt bars for testing. I will pass it to you, Scott, when -- and IF -- I get it. Gene From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 05:00:25 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA14358 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 04:46:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA14339 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 04:46:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-180.austin.eden.com (net-1-180.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.180]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id GAA02435 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 06:46:41 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 06:46:41 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602081246.GAA02435@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Real alchemy X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike M said: >Platinum series is tricky stuff. Unless you know >your chemistry and minerals, platinum series is easily missed by laypeople >and hobbyists. This may actually be true but it is also very similar to a scam that is run over and over in the gold mining business wherein the scammer claims that only his proprietary extraction methods can get the gold out of a particular ore. Samples are taken from the property and sent out to ordinary labs who return negative results. Then scammer runs the samples (spiking them on the sly) and gets a nice show. "See, only with my techniques can the gold in this ore be extracted!" From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 05:53:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA20061 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 05:33:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA20014 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 05:33:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from cappa.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA12497; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 14:33:03 +0100 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 14:33:03 +0100 Message-Id: <9602081333.AA12497@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: An indication for dr.Bill Page regarding Super conductivity X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Dr.B. Page, I answer to your question regarding studies on superconductivity by= Biquater- nion Quantum Mechanics and,in particular, by CGSE. We may apply CGSE to the analysis of the pairing of two electrons in an extended ...... object (Cooper pair) in a superconductor.The binding of the two elewctrons will be given by the solutions of the usual= Schrodinger equation (that of course is always connected to the CGSE) for one spin state ,and of the (connected)CGSE for the opposite spin state.As usually, we will have the operator 1- |u>; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 07:26:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id HAA22176; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 07:26:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 07:26:31 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: ABC-TV Nightline program on CETI Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: ABC-TV Nightline program on CETI To: vortex-l@eskimo.com (vortex-l) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 01:14:21 -0600 (CST) The ABC-TV Nightline program was a balanced look at the recent CETI claims with brief references to past cold fusion claims. Michael Guillen PhD, the Science Editor for ABC-TV, presented the documentary portion, which was an expanded version of that show earlier in the day on the ABC-TV Good Morning America show. Forrest Sawyer then conducted a debate between John Huizenga and Mike McKubre. In the Guillen presentation, the skeptics were represented by Howard Bernbaum (sp?) and Herman Fenchbach (pronunciation? spelling??). Patterson, Reding and their patent attourney Charles Prescott represented CETI. George Miley (UofIll) speaking of his self-made Patterson Powercell said: GM: "We consistently measured an excess energy coming out of it." MG: "Does it always put out more energy than it takes in?" GM: "Yes." MG: "Does that surprise you?" GM: "Absolutely. That's why we're so excited about trying to understand what's going on." Quinton Bowles (UofMissouri, funded by Kansus City Power and Light) discussed the three cells they have operated over the last nine months, saying: "It's fair to say that all three of them appeared to be producing excess heat.... It works and we don't know why." Guillen said that Patterson had told him that Motorola had tested a cell and offered to buy Patterson out. Sawyer's Huizenga/McKubre debate was a familiar rehash of standard form. One misstep by Huizenga was to admit to a Sawyer question that he hadn't reviewed the Patterson work carefully, but then a few sentences later Huizenga was asserting that these cells all use open calorimetry and fail to account for such things as recombination. Clearly since Huizenga had not studied the Patterson work, he was not in a position to categorize the calorimetry (especially since he was wrong about it.) McKubre attempted to correct Huizenga's false claim. So in summary, the two major interesting bits, in my opinion, were that Miley at the UofIll and Bowles at the UofMissouri said in their own words that they had independently seen excess power in Patterson cells under their own control. Guillen said they are reviewing the results before they attempt to publish in the standard periodicals. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 13:33:02 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA14230 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 13:11:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA14062 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 13:10:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA07497 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM); Thu, 8 Feb 1996 16:09:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199602082109.AA07497@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 8 Feb 1996 16:09:48 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: CETIwww Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 16:09:02 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Who said CETI does not use the web. Check it out. http://www.onramp.net/~ceti Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 17:52:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA06623 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 17:36:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA06569 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 17:36:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id RAA29008; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 17:35:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 17:35:50 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: e: vtx: ABC TV to cover Cold Fusion Today (2/7) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Subject: Re: vtx: ABC TV to cover Cold Fusion Today (2/7) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 10:09:34 -0500 From: "Robert I. Eachus" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Horace Heffner said: > I just saw nightline. Having read his book, it was a thrill to > watch Huizenga twitch and squirm during his interview/debate. I > felt sorry for him though. He must have been absolutely blind > sided, not keeping up on developments. What a shock it must have > been for him! Life is just getting tougher for skeptics these > days. I watched Nightline, and although I was a little peeved that no one mentioned ZPE as a possible explanation, Huizenga really did a good job of discrediting himself. He mumbled about open cells and recombination, totally ignoring the fact that Petterson cells are as effectively closed, and that recombination can't explain one Watt in, 200 Watts out--the numbers used on the show. Bocris was much more credible, but I wish they had put Huizenga up against someone who had tested a Patterson cell. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From fznidarsic@gpu.com Thu Feb 8 06:03:06 1996 Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA24291 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 06:02:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA10558 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for VORTEX-L-OWNER@ESKIMO.COM); Thu, 8 Feb 1996 09:02:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199602081402.AA10558@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 8 Feb 1996 09:02:01 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: VORTEX-L-OWNER@ESKIMO.COM Subject: Re: vtx: Real Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 08:59:11 EST Status: RO X-Status: -> WILSON E KEPPLE JR -> VORTEX-L-OWNER@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 X-Intended-For: X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 21:14:50 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Real alchemy Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com At 06:06 PM 2/7/96 -0800, you wrote: >--- FORWARDED --- >From: lee02016@acad.suffolk.edu >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:47:23 -0500 (EST) >Subject: Re: vtx: Real alchemy >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Ted to you >> Take a look at http://www.netzone.com. Joe Champion, an infamous >> alchemist featured in Tesla Society EXTRAORDINARY SCIENCE, is selling >> precious metals created by chemical transmutation! >> >> .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >> William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 > >Hi Bill: > How would we know that that the metals were actually created that >way. Is there any way to tell the difference between natural gold and >alchemically transmuted gold? you can't unless it has NOT GONE THROUGH A SMELTER. Then you could tell by characteristic "signature" of the other elements which are likely to be present. Unsmelted alchemical gold is likely to have the platinum series alloyed with with, as well as some silver and copper. My suspecion is that it is very likely to be similar to gold nuggets. He would have to be selling it for a LOT >less. If he wasn't, I'd be wary of a scam. If I could prove that for certain that the gold was alchemical, I would pay substantially more for it at this time. Collector's value. Won't loose, if date and source could be authenticated. I have a sample of manmade silver, but can't authenticate it because it was done on the qt. It was created via neutron bombardment. Thus, although it is a personal momento, it is worth not much which is okay by me because that is what I paid for it. As far as alchemical gold is concerned, making it by the ton by all accounts is a formidable engineering task. Making it by the ounce is far more likely. Based on my interface over the years with many highly knowledgeable people, I think that it is highly probable that alchemical gold is being produced on a steady basis and is carefully introduced into the world market. The last thing you would want to tell anybody, if you had the technology to produce significant quantities, is that you have the technology, ie, you are making gold. That would destroy the world market. This really is a case of those who know, do, and those who don't know, talk. Champion may be an exception (he is a very presentable guy) because he got his ass in a real sling and it may be that the only way he could get out of it was to sell information publicly. This is my interpretation of events which swirled around him. By Champion's own admission, at least several months back, his public information is okay as far as it goes but it does not tell the whole story. The cook always has more knowledge than he writes for the published receipe, so that the cook can always out perform anybody who uses it. There may be another interpretation as well. There have been reports by highly credible people of MIB's in the gold scene. Certain people have been warned bluntly not to pop up as successful alchemists. Champion's personal situation became so vulnerable (I will let him tell his own story) he may have figured that the best cover was to go public with a very tendencious process which is not very efficient and at least get the story out and make himself sufficiently visable that it would be detrimental to silence him. The price of gold as you should know is sharply controlled by a very small planetary oligarchy. There is absolutely nothing random about its price fluctations. The limited variability of the price is caused by the pressure of people who do not know... But the cat is out of the bag now..All of the cold fusion researchers who have bothered to look are discovering a shift in the elements of their electrodes, ie, cold alchemy. There are now so many reports that it is becoming less of a rumor and more of an established fact. The oligarchy simply could not anticipate this and cannot control the rippling consequences. So the only thing left is for short term profits. In the long run I suspect the cost of the precious metals will continually erode to equal some point which reflects the energy costs which go into its creation. If anyone is interested, I know the exact technology pathway which is the most elegant. I can point to it in one word, through one book, and through one validating experiment, all buried and forgotten because the timing was wrong. However, the price of this information is pretty expensive...The technology setup to do it properly isn't cheap either. Very little chemistry. Mostly very sophisticated em. Under certain circumstances, I will share this information. All the primary conceptions of 20th century chemistry and physics are going to go through a fundamental rewrite during the next twenty years. Infinite Energy, to quote Mallove, and Malleable Atoms, ala alchemy, will become the basis of an entirely different type of civilization. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 8 21:55:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA22262 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 21:34:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from college.antioch.edu (college.antioch.edu [192.131.123.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA22229 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 21:34:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by college.antioch.edu (5.0/1.63) id AA06272; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 00:24:33 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 00:24:31 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: ABC-TV Nightline program on CETI In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: For a Newbie, Please, What are the nuts and bolts of the "Patterson Cell"? What did Motorola try to do? Buy a patent? Is there a patent? If so, what is the number? Thnak you. On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, William Beaty wrote: > --- FORWARDED --- > From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) > Subject: ABC-TV Nightline program on CETI > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com (vortex-l) > Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 01:14:21 -0600 (CST) > > The ABC-TV Nightline program was a balanced look at the recent CETI claims > with brief references to past cold fusion claims. > > Michael Guillen PhD, the Science Editor for ABC-TV, presented the documentary > portion, which was an expanded version of that show earlier in the day > on the ABC-TV Good Morning America show. > > Forrest Sawyer then conducted a debate between John Huizenga and Mike > McKubre. > > In the Guillen presentation, the skeptics were represented by Howard > Bernbaum (sp?) and Herman Fenchbach (pronunciation? spelling??). > > Patterson, Reding and their patent attourney Charles Prescott represented > CETI. > > George Miley (UofIll) speaking of his self-made Patterson Powercell said: > > GM: "We consistently measured an excess energy coming out of it." > > MG: "Does it always put out more energy than it takes in?" > > GM: "Yes." > > MG: "Does that surprise you?" > > GM: "Absolutely. That's why we're so excited about trying to > understand what's going on." > > Quinton Bowles (UofMissouri, funded by Kansus City Power and Light) > discussed the three cells they have operated over the last nine months, > saying: "It's fair to say that all three of them appeared to be producing > excess heat.... It works and we don't know why." > > Guillen said that Patterson had told him that Motorola had tested a cell > and offered to buy Patterson out. > > Sawyer's Huizenga/McKubre debate was a familiar rehash of standard form. > One misstep by Huizenga was to admit to a Sawyer question that he hadn't > reviewed the Patterson work carefully, but then a few sentences later > Huizenga was asserting that these cells all use open calorimetry and > fail to account for such things as recombination. Clearly since Huizenga > had not studied the Patterson work, he was not in a position to categorize > the calorimetry (especially since he was wrong about it.) McKubre > attempted to correct Huizenga's false claim. > > So in summary, the two major interesting bits, in my opinion, were that > Miley at the UofIll and Bowles at the UofMissouri said in their own > words that they had independently seen excess power in Patterson cells > under their own control. Guillen said they are reviewing the results > before they attempt to publish in the standard periodicals. > > -- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - > - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - > > From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 02:06:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA25772 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 14:06:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from cq-pan.cqu.edu.au (root@cq-pan.cqu.EDU.AU [138.77.37.37]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA25601 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 14:05:54 -0800 (PST) From: cs013@cq-pan.cqu.edu.au Received: from 138.77.37.37 ([138.77.58.16]) by cq-pan.cqu.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA17506 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 08:05:06 +1000 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 08:05:06 +1000 Message-Id: <199602082205.IAA17506@cq-pan.cqu.edu.au> X-Sender: cs013@cq-pan.cqu.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: A videotape of the nightline program? Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Hi Everyone, > Can someone please videotape the nightline episode and mail it >to me? I promise to pay all expenses. My address in Australia (i'm back >home again) is: > >Martin Sevior >School of Physics >Unversity of Melbourne >Parkville, Vic. 3052 >Australia > >Thanks veru much. > >Martin > >PS. send me an email in case I get more than 1 offer! > Martin Hi, if you recevive a copy of that video, I would love to grab a copy from you. All expenses covered of course. Please Email me if you have any luck. Thanks in advance. Lance Ryan 15 Thomas street Emu Park Q Australia 4701 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 02:06:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA25417 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 14:04:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA25334 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 14:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a2-8.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a2-8.mel.netspace.net.au [203.17.100.8]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA00486 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 09:01:49 +1100 (EST) From: rvanspaa@netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Real alchemy Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 23:05:17 GMT Organization: Improving Message-Id: <3119fbe1.15385645@mail.netspace.net.au> References: <199602080229.UAA19969@natashya.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <199602080229.UAA19969@natashya.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/16.182 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 7 Feb 1996 20:29:24 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >If someone is willing to obtain a sample from the guy, I'm willing to >perform non-destructive x-ray fluorescence analysis and return the sample >unharmed. XRF will provide POSITIVE confirmation of the Pt and Au as well >as a pretty good quantitative analysis if the sample is an actual alloy (or >if the matrix is known). Scott, As Eugene has offered to pass on his putative bar for testing, and taking into account that mass spectrometry obviously can be used to determine values accurate to .01% (as per published values), it might be worthwhile making an arrangement with a well equipped university to get this determination done as well as the x-ray fluorescence that you mention above. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 02:09:38 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA24049 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 11:57:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA23718 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 11:55:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c1p4.aa.net (s3c1p4.aa.net [204.157.220.144]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA22745 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 11:52:51 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602081952.LAA22745@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 11:52:31 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Real alchemy Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:46 AM 2/8/96 -0600, you wrote: >Mike M said: > >>Platinum series is tricky stuff. Unless you know >>your chemistry and minerals, platinum series is easily missed by laypeople >>and hobbyists. > >This may actually be true but it is also very similar to a scam that is run >over and over in the gold mining business wherein the scammer claims that >only his proprietary extraction methods can get the gold out of a particular >ore. Samples are taken from the property and sent out to ordinary labs who >return negative results. Then scammer runs the samples (spiking them on the >sly) and gets a nice show. "See, only with my techniques can the gold in >this ore be extracted!" > > > yes, understood. I have read or heard about many scams. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 02:09:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAB24015 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 11:57:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA23692 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 11:54:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c1p4.aa.net (s3c1p4.aa.net [204.157.220.144]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA22743 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 11:52:49 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602081952.LAA22743@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 11:52:29 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Transcript of ABC GMA Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:17 PM 2/7/96 EST, you wrote: >To: Vortex > >Transcript of ABC's Good Morning America program, February 7, 1996, 8:16 - >8:22 a.m. > >A Report on Clean Energy Technology Inc. (CETI) Cold Fusion Device > who did you call at ABC to get this transcript? ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 9 02:12:58 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA14760 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 10:52:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (windski@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA14560 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 10:50:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 10:48:49 -0800 (PST) From: Tony Rusi To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: ABC-TV Nightline program on CETI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This Ceti cell has been verified by two other teams. Great why just two? Why not go ala Netscape and capture marketshare by giving away the recipe? This experiment must be harder than it looks. Redding says it is 1000 to 1 gain, Patterson says the cell in front of him is only 200 to 1. Why have not these guys done one the size of a gallon bucket? What is preventing scale up? They did not sell out to Motorola why not? Why is he fishing instead mass producing beads? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 02:31:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA05514 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:39:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA05249 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id RAA19541; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:37:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:37:24 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: How big are independent CETI replications? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: How big are independent CETI replications? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com (vortex-l) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 21:43:33 -0600 (CST) Has Miley or Bowles indicated how large their independently replicated anomalous heat ratios are? I've heard them say with their own words that they have consistent anomalous energy, but I haven't heard them indicated how much. Cutting to the point -- do they have greater out than raw input? I know CETI is way beyond raw input, but I just haven't heard these two gentlemen quantitize their independent results -- and I'd hate to assume something not in evidence. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 02:31:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA25662 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 16:51:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA25298 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 16:48:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id IAA08432; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 08:36:13 -0500 Date: 09 Feb 96 08:32:32 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: ABC's video & transcript order number Message-ID: <960209133231_72240.1256_EHB30-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Videos of ABC's news broadcasts can be purchased by dialing 1-800-913-3434. Transcripts are available from 1-800-255-6397. They can be delivered by e-mail for $10 per copy. The recent program about cold fusion was "Nightline (ABC) #3838." - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 02:31:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA11426 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 15:38:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from julia.math.ucla.edu (root@julia.math.ucla.edu [128.97.4.254]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA11175 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 15:37:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from moebius.math.ucla.edu by julia.math.ucla.edu (Sendmail 4.1/1.13) id AA20120; Fri, 9 Feb 96 12:02:13 PST Received: by moebius.math.ucla.edu (Sendmail 4.1/1.13) id AA25630; Fri, 9 Feb 96 12:02:13 PST Date: Fri, 9 Feb 96 12:02:13 PST From: Barry Merriman Message-Id: <9602092002.AA25630@moebius.math.ucla.edu> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: A videotape of the nightline program? Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You can order videos and transcripts of the program directly from ABC by calling 1-800-913-3434 Barry Merriman UCSD Fusion Energy Research Center UCLA Dept. of Math merriman@fusion.ucsd.edu (Internet) (NeXTMail OK) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 02:31:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA18107 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 16:13:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA17723 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 16:12:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c3p5.aa.net (s3c3p5.aa.net [204.157.220.161]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA20679 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 09:58:42 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602091758.JAA20679@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 09:58:08 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: A videotape of the nightline program? Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:05 AM 2/9/96 +1000, you wrote: >>Hi Everyone, >> Can someone please videotape the nightline episode and mail it >>to me? I promise to pay all expenses. My address in Australia (i'm back >>home again) is: >> >>Martin Sevior >>School of Physics >>Unversity of Melbourne >>Parkville, Vic. 3052 >>Australia >> >>Thanks veru much. >> >>Martin >> >>PS. send me an email in case I get more than 1 offer! >> > >Martin Hi, > if you recevive a copy of that video, I would love to grab a copy >from you. All expenses covered of course. Please Email me if you have any >luck. Thanks in advance. >Lance Ryan >15 Thomas street >Emu Park Q >Australia >4701 > > Well okay, not that it is really USEFUL, but I reckon it is fair to say it is historical. A momento. We made a copy which I will send to you two guys. I don't know what the postage is, so when I find out I'll email you an amount added to a couple of bucks for the tape. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 02:32:57 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA06535 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:44:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA06029 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:41:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id RAA19896; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:41:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:41:27 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: ABC-TV Nightline program on CETI Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: ABC-TV Nightline program on CETI To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 00:39:15 -0600 (CST) > What are the nuts and bolts of the "Patterson Cell"? The Patterson Cell is quite simple conceptually. Plastic beads are plated with copper, then nickel, then palladium, then nickel again. These beads are fed a negative electrical potential. A platinum anode a slight distance away is fed a positive electrical potential. An electrolyte of lithium sulfate and water is between the two electrodes and is typically pumped through. Applied voltages seem to be in the 2-10 volt range. Currents are relatively low, sufficient to input fractional to 1 or 2 watts. Outputs of several hundred watts are measured by noting the input and output temperature and the electrolyte flow rate. The energy gain can then be computed based upon first principles (rather than needing elaborate calibration.) There are pictures of CETI devices on my home page (url below) and also CETI now has a home page. > Is there a patent? Several. Look at 5,372,688 and 5,036,031. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 03:01:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA14354 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 18:22:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (root@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA14230 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 18:21:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id RAA19415; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:36:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:36:12 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re vtx: Barker radioactivity effect Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: Barker Radioactivity effect To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 21:24:15 -0600 (CST) > Suggestion: Have a mineral speciment known to have some type of > alpha emission radio dated by a GOOD geo radio dating lab .... have them > wark the sample ... photograph is ... saw it in half .... have it marked, > dated and photographed again ... so that EVERYONE is very clear there can > be no mistake. > Expose to 50 KV for 12 to 14 hours. Wait one year. Have it > dated again. This is a quick and easy thing to .... you could probably > run up 10 or 20 if you wanted. This seems to be an easy experiment to make multiple runs and most importantly, have "nulls" in parallel. Simply get a sufficiently large amount of starting (radioactive) material. Divide it up into several units. Run half the units in the mentioned de-radioactivity regime, and keep the other half of the units away. Then as the processed ones "age", you can compare them against the unprocessed ones. This will be useful to detect any trend in the processed units, and it also will indicate aging sensistivity loss of the geiger counter if both treated and untreaded samples show reductions (or increases) in decay rates. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 03:12:03 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA03561 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 03:00:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU [128.250.50.83]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA03554 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 03:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msevior@localhost) by liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id WAA27873; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 22:00:18 +1100 From: Martin Edmund Sevior Message-Id: <199602101100.WAA27873@liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU> Subject: Re: vtx: A videotape of the nightline program? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 22:00:18 +1100 (EST) Cc: msevior@liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (Martin Edmund Sevior) In-Reply-To: <199602091758.JAA20679@big.aa.net> from "Michael Mandeville" at Feb 10, 96 09:58:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Micheal wrote: > > Well okay, not that it is really USEFUL, but I reckon it is fair to say it > is historical. A momento. > > We made a copy which I will send to you two guys. I don't know what the > postage is, so when I find out I'll email you an amount added to a couple of > bucks for the tape. Thanks Michael and to everyone else who has pointed me towards the 1-800 numbers. A member of this group has already mailed me a tape. I'll past it around to the various Australian members. My brother works at a TV station in Melbourne so I can convert the tape to PAL for people who don't have NTSC playback capability. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 07:28:34 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA01567 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 07:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA01551 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 07:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id KAA02542; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 10:18:24 -0500 Date: 10 Feb 96 10:15:40 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: How big are independent CETI replication Message-ID: <960210151540_72240.1256_EHB26-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex John Logajan asks: "Has Miley or Bowles indicated how large their independently replicated anomalous heat ratios are? I've heard them say with their own words that they have consistent anomalous energy, but I haven't heard them indicated how much." Yeah, they have. Remember the SOFE demo calorimeter was put together by Miley's people. It was giving 50 to 1. That was with beads provided by CETI. Miley, Bowles and Motorola have confirmed the performance reported by Patterson and Cravens. The beads the Miley himself fabricated did not perform as well at high power, but he mentioned that they worked even better a low power. ". . . but I just haven't heard these two gentlemen quantitize their independent results . . ." I have, but only informally in round numbers. Not in a formal paper. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 11:24:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA07961 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 10:57:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA07856 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 10:56:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id KAA26629; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 10:56:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 10:56:41 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: A videotape of the nightline program? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 15:12:07 +1100 (EST) From: Dave DAVIES To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: A videotape of the nightline program? > Hi Everyone, > Can someone please videotape the nightline episode and mail it > to me? I promise to pay all expenses. My address in Australia (i'm back > home again) is: > > Martin Sevior > School of Physics > Unversity of Melbourne > Parkville, Vic. 3052 > Australia > > Thanks veru much. > > Martin > > PS. send me an email in case I get more than 1 offer! > > Hi Martin, Any chance of an Aus. distribution? If you pass a copy to me I will copy it and pass it on. I'm very interested in seeing it but the hassles of OS money transfer are too much. We can split those costs 3 ways so far. dave From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 10 20:18:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA29736 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 18:52:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA29717 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 18:52:51 -0800 (PST) From: RMCarrell@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA09248 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 21:51:29 -0500 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 21:51:29 -0500 Message-ID: <960210215128_141044034@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: A Longitu Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Regarding common mode noise in coaxial cables interpreted as longitudinal EM waves: the metaphor is stretched too far from an EE standpoint. Any AC-powered electronic device with a cable input (coaxial or not) will be sensitive to ambient EM fields from local power wiring, radio stations and the distant galaxies: the cable is an antenna. Conventional theory based on transverse waves predicts the behavior of such systems very comfortably (in principle). To prevent hum pickup from, say, a microphone, we provide a coaxial cable so there are two conductors sharing the same geometric center and length and which pick up equal signals from whatever EM fields there may be (common mode noise). The electronics respond only to the difference between the signals on the two wires (produced by the microphone at the far end). The cancellation of common mode noise can be 10E-6 or better in a well-designed system. TV stations, recording studios, and the like rely on this. Twisted pairs work nearly as well, provided there are no high gradient EM fields, such as draping the pair over a cable carrying a strong AC current. The Navy Extremely Low Frequency transmitters have antennas buried in the earth because their task is to transmit signals to nuclear submarines submerged in salt water. The propagation of EM waves in a conductive medium such as salt water is a strong function of frequency, so a very low frequency is used. The metaphor of the rope is just that, a metaphor. Longitudinal waves, such as sound waves, propagate down the length of the rope whether the loose end is moved transversely or longitudinally, and the velocity is determined by the mass density and the modulus of elasticity of the rope material. The velocity of transverse waves is determined by the mass density and the restoring force which is gravity for a loose rope, or tension in the case of a violin string. None of these examples argue for the existence or nonexistence of longitudinal EM waves. I only point out the limitations of the offered metaphors and suggest that experimenters and theoreticians look deeper. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 00:14:20 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA19716 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 00:00:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (windski@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA19703; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 00:00:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 00:00:36 -0800 (PST) From: Tony Rusi To: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> cc: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: How big are independent CETI replication In-Reply-To: <960210151540_72240.1256_EHB26-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A What's the difficult part of the experiment? Why hasn't anyone tried a gallon bucket full of beads? Why hasn't anyone tried to scale up to a 20kw heat output? That amount could heat a small house. What is the cost? Why is it so hard to make round plastic beads? What does Patterson know that the rest of us don't? Do you have a cook book for this experiment? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 09:24:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA21144 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 09:12:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA21137 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 09:11:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id JAA18700; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 09:11:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 09:11:55 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: How big are independent CETI replication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 11 Feb 1996, Tony Rusi wrote: > What's the difficult part of the experiment? Why hasn't anyone tried a > gallon bucket full of beads? Why hasn't anyone tried to scale up to a > 20kw heat output? That amount could heat a small house. What is the cost? > Why is it so hard to make round plastic beads? What does Patterson know > that the rest of us don't? Do you have a cook book for this experiment? $50 per gram for beads. Which reminds me of a question. What's the status on CF funding in the US? I heard long ago that use of NSF discresionary funding for CF experimentation was made illegal. Is this still the case? If NSF dollars were used to make Patterson beads, would the researchers be jailed? If so, too bad that ABC's coverage didn't mention the situation. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 09:33:03 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA22461 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 09:20:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA22454; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 09:20:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id JAA19482; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 09:20:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 09:20:45 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com cc: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Proof of Transmutation (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 10:10:15 -0700 From: Joe Champion To: William Beaty Subject: Proof of Transmutation MASS SPECTROSCOPY VALIDATION OF TRANSMUTATION In June of 1995, I presented a paper to Dr. John O'M Bockris validating "low energy nuclear reactions" from data compiled by the Perkin Elmer Corporation. The analyses were compiled on material which I had generated in my laboratory. Due to the mounds of controversy surrounding this topic, I decided to publish this data (in part) on the WEB. It can be found at: http://www.netzone.com/~discpub/valid.html For the skeptics in the mist, the data in this report was generated by the technical staff of Perkin Elmer Corporation in San Jose, California. The tests were performed in a demonstration of their Elan-6000 mass spectrometer From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 10:02:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA27788 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 09:49:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA27770; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 09:49:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id JAA22270; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 09:49:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 09:49:11 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com cc: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I don't recall if this was posted here before: -bill b. ______________________________________________________________________________ | File Name : ISNE96.ASC | Online Date : 02/09/96 | | Contributed by : Jerry Decker | Dir Category : CONTACT | | From : KeelyNet BBS | DataLine : (214) 324-3501 | | KeelyNet * PO BOX 870716 * Mesquite, Texas * USA * 75187 | | A FREE Alternative Sciences BBS sponsored by Vanguard Sciences | | InterNet email keelynet@ix.netcom.com (Jerry Decker) | | Files also available at Bill Beaty's http://www.eskimo.com/~billb | |----------------------------------------------------------------------------| If you are serious about your studies of Over-Unity devices, you will definitely want to attend this conference. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Symposium on New Energy April 25-28 at the Denver Hilton South Hotel, Denver, Colorado ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Key Speakers Dennis Cravens on the Patterson Fuel Cell Mark Hendershot on the Hendershot Motor Harold Puthoff on Zero Point Energy Jim Griggs on the Griggs Hydrosonic Pump Eugene Mallove on Cold Fusion Tom Valone on Free Energy & Propulsion Edgar Mitchell (former Apollo astronaut) on New Energy Other Speakers Harold Aspden on Ferromagnetics Robert Emmerich on Measuring Energy John Grow on Antigravity William Hyde on the Hyde Electrostatic Generator Scott Klaumizio on Power from food oils Ron Kovac on Transmutation of elements Peter Linderman on Thermodynamics Roy McAllister on Hydrogen Energy Bill Mulle on the Magnetic Motor Generator Dale Pond on the Keely Motor Troy Reed on the Reed Magnetic More and related research Bert Werjefelt on the Magnetic Motor Charles Yost on Electric Spacecraft Propulsion Paulo Correa on Pulse Abnormal Glow Discharges Hal Fox on Cold Fusion John Hutchinson on Antigravity and the Energy Convertor Russ James on the Magnetic Emission Reduction Device Don Kelly with his Free energy update Win Lambertson on Solid State Energy Conversion Jeanne Manning on the Upcoming Energy Revolution Andrew Michrowski on Free Energy in a Self-Sustaining Home Brian O'Leary on his book, Miracle in the Void Wing Pon with a Unified Theory of Free Energy Pierre Sinclair on the Hammill Magnetic Gravitational Drive Dan Winter on Gravitational Energy and its relationship to Emotion and many more ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Itinerary April 25 - Thursday Evening Workshops 6:30PM - 9:30PM April 26 - Friday Lectures 8:30AM - 5:00PM Evening Workshops 6:30PM - 9:30PM April 27 - Saturday Lectures 8:30AM - 5:00PM Evening Workshops 6:30PM - 9:30PM April 28 - Sunday Lectures 8:30AM - 5:00PM Evening Workshops 6:30PM - 9:30PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Details Location Denver Hilton South Hotel, 7801 East Orchard Road, Englewood, Colorado 80111 (south part of Denver) A private shuttle bus is available from the airport. Purchase tickets at ground transportation. Hotel reservations at 1.800.327.2242 Hotel room rates are $59 for a single and a block of rooms has been reserved, please mention that you are with the ISNE conference in April. Registration - before March 1 - $200 between March 1 and April 1 - $250 after April 1 - $300 Workshops - $20 each Banquet - $25 Additional information from International Association of New Science, 1304 South College Avenue, Fort Collins, CO 970.482.3731 FAX 970.482.3120 Make checks payable to International Association for New Science. Memberships to IANS $35. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 11:25:44 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA10990 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 11:08:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA10948 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 11:08:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mu.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA28216; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 20:08:12 +0100 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 20:08:12 +0100 Message-Id: <9602111908.AA28216@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: Proof of a Transmutation X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The paper of J.Champion is very interesting to proof the predictions of Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics and in particular of the cold fusion (p,e) in n .Please,while I am asking to see http......could you inform me if the= =20 observed transmutations can be related with an inner transformation of the neutron into a proton and an electron?How,actually,the dynamics of the reaction occuurred? Sincerely .Elio Conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 14:00:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA07476 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 13:47:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (felix.dircon.co.uk [193.128.224.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA07437 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 13:47:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by felix.dircon.co.uk id AA06553 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 11 Feb 1996 21:47:19 GMT Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 21:47:19 GMT Message-Id: <199602112147.AA06553@felix.dircon.co.uk> Received: from gw4-190.pool.dircon.co.uk(194.112.36.190) by amnesiac via smap (V1.3) id sma006548; Sun Feb 11 21:46:50 1996 X-Sender: dominic@popmail.dircon.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: dominic@dircon.co.uk (Dominic Murphy) Subject: Re: vtx: ABC TV to cover Cold Fusion Today (2/7) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Vortexians: > >There will be MAJOR coverage of cold fusion and CETI (Clean Energy >Technologies, Inc. and the Patterson Power Cell) today (Feb. 7) on ABC TV. It >will be covered on Good Morning America around 8:15 a.m. and there will be a >full Nightline program tonight. Also, it *may* appear on ABC Evening News. But >GMA and Nightline are definites. > > >Gene > >Eugene F. Mallove, Sc.D., Editor-in-Chief >INFINITE ENERGY: Cold Fusion > and New Energy Technnology >Cold Fusion Technology >P.O. Box 2816 >Concord, NH 03302-2816 > >Fax: 603-224-5975 >Phone: 603-228-4516 > There would be much gratitude for a copy of the recent Wall St J. article about CETI. My fax number is below. Thanks. dominic murphy +44 (0)181 747 0499 ; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:12:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id PAA21153; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:12:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:12:07 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Joe Champion is on vortex-L Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Joe Champion just joined. In a recent private message he said he's dropping a "bombshell" next week when he publishes full details on an easily-replicated transmutation experiment on his website. Big fun! .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 15:34:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA22026 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:22:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA21997 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:21:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id PAA22139; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:21:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:21:53 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: letter in vtx Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 8 Feb 96 07:43:26 +0300 From: Alexander V. Frolov To: billb@eskimo.com Subject: letter in vtx Dear Sirs, It is not your first attempt to find answer for question "How it Work?", and for Potapov's device also. Any time you make it, I can not explane for myself the next: "Why you don't try offer for inventor normal way for joint work, like contract for joint venture? Mr. Potapov published the Technical Description for USMAR and I know that he was ready to sell working devices in 1995 ( for private needs and not for re-production that require of licence ). I am not sure, but price was something about $ 2000 or $4000 per one device. Ask author about o/u in his system. If he clime that it is 300% for "output heat"/"input electricity" you can require to include this point in papers of device you are purchasing. In other case you try find answer for question that is ordinary "know how" and it is intellectual property of author. Good luck for your travel, --- Alexander V. Frolov P.O.Box 37, 193024, St.-Petersburg, Russia alex@frolov.spb.ru --VAA10668.823723860/eunet.EU.net-- --XAB01665.823724010/duxjr.dux.ru-- --- Alexander V. Frolov P.O.Box 37, 193024, St.-Petersburg, Russia alex@frolov.spb.ru From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 15:58:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA22177 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:22:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA22156 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:22:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id PAA22254; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:22:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:22:45 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: letter in vtx Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 8 Feb 96 07:44:32 +0300 From: Alexander V. Frolov To: billb@eskimo.com Subject: letter in vtx Subject: Re: vtx: cold fusion of 1960. Reply for D. Britz Dieter Britz wrote Re: vtx: cold fusion of 1960 ; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 23:15:30 -0800 (PST) From: JOEFLYNN@delphi.com Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V5.0-5 #10880) id <01I13Y3TYGOG9FN64G@delphi.com> for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 02:15:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 02:15:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: vtx: PATTERSON CELL \ SHORTED BATTERY? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <01I13Y3TYQBM9FN64G@delphi.com> X-VMS-To: INTERNET"vortex-l@eskimo.com" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: IF A BATTERY IS SHORTED A LARGE AMOUNT OF HEAT CAN BE PRODUCED WITH NO APPARENT ELECTRICAL INPUT. IF THE ELECTROLYTE WERE TO BE CONSTANTLY "REFRESHED" THE REACTION COULD BE SUSTAINED FOR A PERIOD OF TIME. I ADMIT I AM NOT WELL VERSED ON THE PATTERSON TECHNOLOGY. HAS ANY INVESTIGATED THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE PATTERSON CELL COULD BE BEHAVING AS A SHORTED BATTERY? SMALL ELECTRICAL CURRENT FLOW FROM ANODE TO CATHODE / FORMATION OF IONS / RESISTANCE OF ELECTROLYTE DROPS / AVALANCHE EFFECT / LARGE INTERNAL CURRENT FLOW FROM CATHODE TO ANODE/ CONTINUAL REFRESHING OF ELECTROLYTE.. DEGASSING ETC. JOE FLYNN FLYNN RESEARCH INC. P.O. BOX 11657 KANSAS CITY, MO. 64138 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 11 23:53:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA09034 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 23:42:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from nz1.netzone.com (root@netzone.com [206.43.36.70]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA09029 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 23:42:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-ip-84.netzone.com (phx-ip-84.netzone.com [206.43.37.84]) by nz1.netzone.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA03102 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 00:33:14 -0700 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 00:33:14 -0700 Message-Id: <199602120733.AAA03102@nz1.netzone.com> X-Sender: discpub@netzone.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-L@mail.eskimo.com From: Joe Champion Subject: vtx: Greetings Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To the Group: As a new member, I would like to take a minute to say hello. If someone was to search the globe for supports of "low energy nuclear reactions," they would find me at the top of the list. However, if one asked me my views on cold fusion, that is, the randomized D + D syndrome, I would have to say that I feel such reactions are impossible. As time progresses I will present my case. As a practitioner of commercial operations wherein Pt, Au and Os are nuclearly synthesized at less than 2,000oC in the kilograms per day, I provide a good example that low energy events do indeed occur. For those of you interested in a study completed with the assistance of Perkin Elmer which provides proof of low energy events, I invite you to review -- Mass Spectroscopy Validation of Nuclear Transmutation. This paper can be found at URL: http://www.netzone.com/~discpub/valid.html If anyone reviews such, I would appreciate their comments. Again, thanks to Bill for allowing me into the group. Joe Champion discpub@netzone.com From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 12 06:20:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA08957 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 06:00:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA08927 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 06:00:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA12614; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:00:21 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11375; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 08:59:01 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 08:59:01 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602121359.AA11375@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: PATTERSON CELL \ SHORTED BATTERY? Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Methinks in that case, the input electrical power is V*I across the short wire. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 12 06:20:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA09415 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 06:04:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from power.gpu.com (power.gpu.com [206.215.92.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA09402; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 06:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by power.gpu.com id AA04733 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0); Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:03:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199602121403.AA04733@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:03:43 -0500 From: FRANK ZNIDARSIC guser To: BILLB@eskimo.com To: VORTEX-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: PullPlug Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 09:02:50 EST Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -> VORTEX-L@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 -> BILLB@ESKIMO.COM MAIL TO EXTERNAL MAIL SYSTEM IO50C3 Bill Please pull the plug on GPU. Frank Znidarsic On Friday February the 9th a meeting was held between Dennis J Kulish corporate attorney, John E Gritzer plant superintendent, Robert G. Jamieson of information services, and Frank Znidarsic Station Engineer. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the large volume of E-mail received by Frank Znidarsic. It was pointed out that this mail appeared to be an abuse of company equipment. Especially offensive was the large volume of E-mail that was received from Vortex-l. Vortex-L is an INTERNET news group whose members include leading scientists from many different organizations. In order to avoid any appearance of impropriety I have taken actions to stop this flow of electronic mail. I'm am the process of discouraging the organizations that have been transmitting it. Within a short time my INTERNET usage should return a normal low level. To those of you who have been recipient of the information, for the time being that information will no longer be forthcoming. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 12 07:53:06 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA21475 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 07:22:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA21446 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 07:21:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id KAA11794; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:20:31 -0500 Date: 12 Feb 96 10:15:35 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Carrell summarizes history of radio Message-ID: <960212151535_72240.1256_EHB137-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Mike Carrel posted the following on s.p.f. This is such a superb short summary of the early history of radio and television that I think it merits repeating here. I don't know if Mike is tuned in here, and some Vortex readers do not get s.p.f. - Jed Originally-From: rmcarrell@aol.com (RMCarrell) Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Date: 11 Feb 1996 11:27:08 -0500 This is a tangled thread indeed and I will try to unkink it. Hertz performed his experiments with spark gap oscillators and detectors, lacking anything better. The wavelengths generated are defined by the associated resonators, and in Hertz's case they would have been in the centimeter region, where refraction and reflection were easily observable, and distance transmission limited to line-of-sight. Many exprimenters followed Hertz's lead, since the materials and techniques were easily available. There was much fumbling and uncertain results. Marconi was only one of many who tried for increased distances, using spark gap generators. Tesla was the first to fully define the requirements for distance radio transmission, which was finally recognized by the US Patent office only a few decades ago. Medium wave transmission is primarily ground wave, which does conform to the earth's curvature, but long distance skip does occur in the AM band at night. The wavelengths of 30 meters and less were relegated to amateurs as worthless and unreliable. It was they who discovered and utilized the skip effects to communicate around the world with a few watts and directional antennas. It was only later that it was realized that ionospheric reflection was the source of the skip. And it was still later that hams found that the ionization trails left by meteors could be used as reflectors for over-the-horizon burst communication at very high frequencies. The Navy planted the antennas for Extremely Low Frequency transmission in the earth because the purpose was to signal submerged nuclear submarines. The earth and salt water being both conductors, only frequencies in the audo range get through. DeForest invented the Audion, the vacuum tube amplifier, in 1906. He didn't really understand how it worked, as the structure of the atom, and electrons as the carriers of electricity, was not elucidated until later. Hundreds of amateurs and professionals tinkered with circuits and DeForest tried to claim a piece of every action. At one point DeForest was sued for fraud for claiming that his device would lead to transatlantic voice communication. It remained for Armstrong to introduce a series of circuits (regenerative detector, superheterodyne, FM radio) that defined the path of the radio industry. The moral here is that the phenomenon preceeds theory, discoveries precede protocols, and careful exprimental protocols are suitable for refining understanding of a discovery. An experimentalist needs to meticulously document his work so that others can replicate it and theorists build on it, but that does not prevent useful devices from being made. As far as the CF arena is concerned, P&F might correspond to DeForest and Patterson to Armstrong, but it is much too early and we can leave that to the historians. Jed has taken CETI to task for not freely selling beads to experimenters. He has a valid point. In the early days of electronics, people made their own equipment until specialized things like radio tubes and other components were supplied by commercial firms. After WW2, RCA introduced a 30 tube television set when most radios had 3 to 5 tubes. Recognizing that RCA alone could not create an industry, the technology was licensed to one an all, help was given in design, and RCA built sets for other brand names until competitors could get their own plants going. I submit, however, it will be a while before NE (New Energy) devices are ready for the consumer market. Fuel is a small part of the ownership cost of an automobile, or of your electric bill. It is an important part of the cost of operating a utility. This does not minimize the importance of the discoveries we are witnessing. The spirited exchange of views (to put it politely) here if spf is an echo of the invective between the competitve pioneers of electronics and earlier technologies. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 12 15:36:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA05089 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:33:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA03449 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:22:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c1p2.aa.net (s1c1p2.aa.net [204.157.220.174]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA02764 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:17:24 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602121917.LAA02764@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:16:51 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: ABC's video & transcript order number Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:32 AM 2/9/96 EST, you wrote: >To: Vortex > >Videos of ABC's news broadcasts can be purchased by dialing 1-800-913-3434. >Transcripts are available from 1-800-255-6397. They can be delivered by e-mail >for $10 per copy. The recent program about cold fusion was "Nightline (ABC) >#3838." > >- Jed > > I think I will let the two gentlemen from Australia order it directly from ABC rather than send them a homemade copy as per my offer last week. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 12 18:38:57 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA07569 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nz1.netzone.com (root@netzone.com [206.43.36.70]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA07513 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:25:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-ip-229.netzone.com (phx-ip-229.netzone.com [206.43.37.229]) by nz1.netzone.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA23106 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 19:16:04 -0700 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 19:16:04 -0700 Message-Id: <199602130216.TAA23106@nz1.netzone.com> X-Sender: discpub@netzone.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Joe Champion Subject: vtx: Osmium Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: By modification of our reactor in New Mexico, we have achieved ~2.0 kgs per day production of OsO2. At this time we have over 4.0 kgs of pure OsO2 (yes, we have some OsO4) in inventory. I will present a full report on this discovery. Joe Champion From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 12 20:46:33 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA29925 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 20:35:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from bos1h.delphi.com (SYSTEM@bos1h.delphi.com [192.80.63.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA29867 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 20:35:15 -0800 (PST) From: JOEFLYNN@delphi.com Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V5.0-6 #10880) id <01I156REJWLS96XVCV@delphi.com> for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 23:34:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 23:34:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: vtx: PATTERSON CELL \ SHORTED BATTERY? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <01I156REJWLU96XVCV@delphi.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"vortex-l@eskimo.com" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: 12-FEB-1996 09:27:24.36 WASTEBASKET From: IN%"vortex-l@eskimo.com" To: IN%"vortex-l@eskimo.com" CC: Subj: RE: vtx: PATTERSON CELL \ SHORTED BATTERY? Return-path: Received: from mail.eskimo.com (majordom@mail.eskimo.com) by delphi.com (PMDF V5.0-6 #10880) id <01I14D6A82FK94OT8J@delphi.com> for JOEFLYNN@delphi.com; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:27:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA08957 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 06:00:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA08927 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 06:00:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA12614; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:00:21 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11375; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 08:59:01 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 08:59:01 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Subject: Re: vtx: PATTERSON CELL \ SHORTED BATTERY? Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <199602121359.AA11375@world.std.com> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Precedence: bulk Methinks in that case, the input electrical power is V*I across the short wire. Mitchell Swartz ** End of message ** MOSTLY TRUE. ASSUMING THE ANODE AND CATHODE OF THE ELECTRICAL INPUT ARE THE SAME AS WHAT MIGHT BE THE ANODE AND CATHODE OF THE "BATTERY ACTION" IN THE PATTERSON CELL (IF IT EXISTS, ONLY A ?). IT COULD APPEAR AS MANY INDIVIDUAL CELLS BETWEEN BEADS. I ONLY ASK SINCE THE PATTERSON CELL DOES HAVE LITHIUM AND AT LEAST THREE METALS (COATINGS ARE USUALLY PORUS) AND POSSIBLY OTHER METALS IN THE HOUSING THAT ARE CANDIDATES FOR BATTERY ACTION. IT WOULD ALSO DEPEND UPON THE RESISTANCE OF THE ELECTROLYTE, TO PRODUCE HEAT AND THE RESISTANCE OF THE INPUT POWER SUPPLY. IF THE RESISTANCE OF THE POWER SUPPLY WERE LOW AND VOLTAGE HIGHER THAN THAT OF BATTERY ACTION AND THE CURRENT OF BATTERY ACTION IS HIGH FLOWING THRU A LARGER RESISTANCE (OF THE ELECTROLYTE) TO PRODUCE HEAT THIS WOULD NOT NECESSARILY MEAN INPUT=WATTS TO PRODUCE HEAT. I WITHDRAW MY ?? UNTIL I STUDY THE PATTERSON CELLS CHARACTERISTICS. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 01:23:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA03268 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:20:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA02930 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:17:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c1p2.aa.net (s1c1p2.aa.net [204.157.220.174]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA02675 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:16:05 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602121916.LAA02675@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:15:31 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Proof of a Transmutation Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:08 PM 2/11/96 +0100, you wrote: >The paper of J.Champion is very interesting to proof the predictions of >Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics and in particular of the cold fusion (p,e) >in n .Please,while I am asking to see http......could you inform me if the= =20 >observed transmutations can be related with an inner transformation of >the neutron into a proton and an electron?How,actually,the dynamics of >the reaction occuurred? >Sincerely .Elio Conte >--- >Prof Elio Conte >Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia >Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia > > Professor Conte: Are you aware of Dr. Roberto Monti's work concerning transmutations? I have a large, unpublished manuscript of his, which includes elaborate color charts which define, atom by atom, the possiblities of recombinations of neutrons with protons. Unfortunately, his movements in the job market have left me in the dust and I am not sure how to reach him at this time. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 01:25:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA17872 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 07:00:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA17757 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 06:59:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id GAA01403; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 06:57:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 06:57:11 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: ABC TV to cover Cold Fusion Today (2/7) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Message-Id: --- FORWARDED --- From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: ABC TV to cover Cold Fusion Today (2/7) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 08:00:19 -0600 (CST) dominic murphy > There would be much gratitude for a copy of the recent Wall St J. article > about CETI. CETI has it on-line on their web pages at: http://www.onramp.net/~ceti -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 01:32:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA03622 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:23:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA03234 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:19:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c1p2.aa.net (s1c1p2.aa.net [204.157.220.174]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA02680 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:16:08 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602121916.LAA02680@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:15:35 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Greetings Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:33 AM 2/12/96 -0700, you wrote: >To the Group: > >As a new member, I would like to take a minute to say hello. If someone was >to search the globe for supports of "low energy nuclear reactions," they >would find me at the top of the list. However, if one asked me my views on >cold fusion, that is, the randomized D + D syndrome, I would have to say >that I feel such reactions are impossible. > >If anyone reviews such, I would appreciate their comments. > >Again, thanks to Bill for allowing me into the group. > >Joe Champion >discpub@netzone.com > > Welcome Aboard! A review will be on its way shortly of your new material. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 01:55:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA18395 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 13:28:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA17390 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 13:16:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c1p2.aa.net (s1c1p2.aa.net [204.157.220.174]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA02642 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:15:41 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602121915.LAA02642@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:15:08 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Carrell summarizes history of radio Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:15 AM 2/12/96 EST, you wrote: >To: Vortex > >Mike Carrel posted the following on s.p.f. This is such a superb short summary >of the early history of radio and television that I think it merits repeating >here. I don't know if Mike is tuned in here, and some Vortex readers do >not get s.p.f. > >- Jed > Thank you Jed for the repost. I am one who does not do the newsgroups. The volume is simply too great. I figure Vortex is a great filter. If you guys are interested in it, it is probably worth looking at it. If not, I don't have time to sort through a lot "spirited" exchanges. I only want facts or philosophical insight. The Carrel summary gives a nutshell of my position on inventing the unknown. The "theory" of how things work always follows the discovery of the phenomenon. Theory never leads anywhere except to contradiction. To define from theory what is possible or not possible is an action taken only by insecure students trying to brown nose an authority or a conceit indulged in by those who are too comfortable in the way things are. To the genuinely curious, the load of "weirdness" afoot is very large and its exploration can continue to lead the inventive into new horizons of endeavor. To craft new results which are useful requires total immersion in the "craft" of the thing, not theory. From wrestling with the thing, eventually a perspective will open up leading to the knowledge to how "it fits" in the application of some larger schema. Gaining the proper perspective, the insight, the 'magic', whatever you want to call it, is completely non-linear. This suggests that those who are uncomfortable with something and who lead eclectic intellectual lives are those from whom one can expect to see a greater preponderance of fundamentally new things. These people have always been classified by prevailing "authorities" as "weird", not really "legitimate, not "successful", even "nuts", etc., etc. I see this as a subliminal collective conspiracy of the least creative, most insecure, power-oriented personality types to get a lock on power and reduce personal competition for status, position, and resource. That personality type always knows how to talk to itself accross most socio/ideo/political lines, because "the game" it is playing is so fundamental. The American academy has been badly corrupted during the cold war years by this personality type, virtually creating a national fascist mentality. Let me put it to you this way, if you are seen as "weird", you have been niggerized. After you have been nigerized long enough, you realize, like blacks did, that it's pointless to be polite about it...Right now, you, Gene, and everyone in Vortex shares that category. We are all niggers, shucking and jiving crazy shit out behind the woodpile where nobody with civilized sensibilities would be caught dead. This is my rejoinder to you, Jed...I hope you use the coming opportunities to expose the mendacity of established Academicians as much as you possibly can. In general terms, we are in the beginning phase of a major socio-political reaction against the federal fascism and the national conformity it has engendered. With ou, a fundamental cornerstone of the academy will lie exposed. I hope you pour as much salt into the exposure as you can muster...and make people think about fundamental issues. Did you you read Zdarsic's "pull plug" post? Case in point. The crazy niggers behind the woodpile were getting too noisy. Too weird, slap em down, shut em up. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 01:56:06 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA21085 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 13:51:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA20699 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 13:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id OAA11088; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 14:18:08 -0500 Date: 12 Feb 96 13:57:39 EST From: Wolfram Bahmann <100276.261@compuserve.com> To: VORTEX-L Subject: vtx: WSJ report on CETI Message-ID: <960212185738_100276.261_JHF103-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I just downloaded the WSJ article from the CETI homepage. Here it is: + + + + + Reprinted with permission from The Wall Street Journal as it appeared in the Monday, January 29, 1996 issue. BY JERRY E. BISHOP Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal To anyone who remembers the 1989 uproar over cold fusion, it's deja vu all over again. A bottle no bigger than a man's fist is creating an unusual stir among power generation engineers. The bottle is filled with ordinary water and microscopic palladium coated beads. When a little electric current trickles through the bottle, several hundred times as much power starts coming out in the form of heat that is, if one cares to believe the instruments attached to the bottle. 'No One Knows Why' The instrument readings are enough however, to draw the interest of engineers at a handful of major companies and to prompt at least two university laboratories to attempt to figure out what's going on inside the bottle. "It appears on the surface that it works, but no one knows why," says Quinton Bowles, professor of mechanical engineering at the University of Missouri in Kansas City. The little bottle is known as a Patterson Power Cell, named for its inventor, James A. Patterson, a 74 year old chemist who lives in Sarasota, Fla. Dr. Patterson has turned his power cell over to a startup Clean Energy Technologies Inc. in Dallas headed by his grandson, James W. Reding 26. Mr. Reding is reticent, except to say that CETI is negotiating to license rights to two utilities that he declines to name and to Motorola Inc. A Motorola spokeswoman says, "We wouldn't confirm such a report even if it were true." And so it goes in the tumultuous realm of cold fusion. In 1989 two University of Utah electrochemists Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons, triggered the whole cold fusion uproar by saying they had managed to produce nuclear fusion at ordinary room temperatures, using water as a fuel. The notion of a cheap and inexhaustible new source of energy sparked an avalanche of headlines and accolades only to fall into disrepute when others found the work to be irreproducible. Shunned by their colleagues in Utah, Messrs. Fleischmann and Pons retreated to a new cold fusion lab in southern France. 'I Don't Buy It' The Patterson Power Cell differs in some key ways from the Utah approach, but in some quarters, it raises the same level of skepticism. "It's been a long time since anybody tried to sell me the Brooklyn Bridge," says materials scientist Howard K. Birnbaum, who saw the cell demonstrated last October. "I didn't buy it then, and I don't buy it now." Dr. Birnbaum, director of the Materials Research Laboratory at the University of Illinois's Urbana campus, adds that "as far as I can see, there's nothing new going on that would justify [claims] that more energy is coming out than is going in." Yet supporters say something is going on inside the little heat producing bottle. As with the Utah apparatus, it's claimed that the bottle produces an excess of power as it electrolyzes, or breaks down, water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen atoms. But unlike the controversial and unpredictable Utah experiments, The Patterson cell can be turned on and off seemingly at will. Several working devices built by Dr. Patterson have been made available to two teams. "This is the first time what we have a system that seems to work every time," says a nuclear chemist who consults to utilities. The cell's reliability, which would allow scientists to manipulate it, "gives us our first chance to see if this [phenomenon] involves a nuclear reaction," he explains. Moreover, the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, which has flatly said that cold fusion, like perpetual motion, is impossible and unpatentable, has issued a patent on the gadget. Although both the original Utah devices and the Patterson cell involve the electrolysis of water, there are marked differences. The electrodes in the original devices were small rods of palladium surrounded by coils of platinum wire, and these were hung in a bath of "heavy" water in which the hydrogen is a heavy form called deuterium. The Patterson cell, instead of using palladium rods, is filled with microscopic plastic beads coated with a thin layer of palladium sandwiched between two layers of nickel. And most significantly, it's filled with ordinary water made of "light" hydrogen atoms. In both cases, the hydrogen atoms released by the electrolysis are soaked up by the palladium and/or nickel. It's inside the metal that some kind of energy releasing phenomenon is claimed to take place. A year ago, shortly after CETI was formed, Mr. Reding was touting the Patterson cell as a "coldfusion" system. He has since dropped that claim and now says that "we believe it is something entirely different." He declines to elaborate. A cold fusion claim implies that the hydrogen atoms are being forced to fuse, a nuclear reaction that usually occurs at 50 million degrees. Physicists say that if the claims were true, the cold fusion researchers would die from the intense nuclear radiation that would result. The Patterson cell might have been dismissed as easily as other reputed "cold fusion" apparatus. But Mr. Reding and his colleagues have been bold enough to demonstrate it at three technical conferences in the last nine months. Most cold fusionists are reluctant to show off their devices, because they are never sure whether or when they will work. Last month, CETI's Mr. Reding showed off a new Patterson cell at an annual gathering of generating equipment manufacturers in Anaheim, Calif. It stood about four inches high and one inch in diameter and held about three tablespoons of the tiny beads. People who watched demonstrations that lasted from 30 minutes to two hours say the instruments indicated that, after subtracting the electricity needed to run pumps and fans, about 0.1 to 1.5 watts of power went into the cell itself, while the heat output was 450 to 1,300 watts. The dubious Dr. Birnbaum at the University of Illinois says that though the cold fusion claims are "atrocious" Science, the Patterson cell people "may have stumbled on something else. If so, I hope they are successful and make a lot of money. If not, this ought to be exposed as flimflam." + + + + + ------------------------------ Wolfram Bahmann INE & P.A.C.E. board member Feyermuehler Str.12 D-53894 MECHERNICH Germany fax: Int+49/ 2443-8221 e-mail: 100276.261@compuserve.com From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 02:04:19 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA18317 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 07:03:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (root@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA18239 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 07:03:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id GAA01232; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 06:54:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 06:54:06 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Potapov Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 08:42:54 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: Mihai JALOBEANU To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Potapov Travel to Potapov. I was visiting at Dr. Potapov's "YUSMAR" Company in Kishinev, Republic of Moldova, February 8 and 9, 1996. This was my third visit here. Travel by train, 14 hours one way, planes are not flying due to very bad weather. The company has moved in an industrial zone and great laboratories are ready or in advanced state of construction. Dr. Potapov's office is heated by an small Yusmar, it is very warm (the small loop was adjusted to 76 deg Celsius) but the pump is a bit noisy. BTW, the quality and performances of the Moldavian pumps seems to be Potapov's greatest worry. The business is going on with full speed: a) The total number of Yusmars produced is approx 15,000; 20 factories are producing these thermogenerators. The capacity is continuously increasing by reconversion of the former military works some 1,000 machines per month. China has ordered a great quantity. b) The Yusmars are used now in all the CIS states, in China, Poland, France, the Baltic states.. Tests are made in Germany (Siemens), Switzerland and South-Koreea. Positive results (o/u) have been obtained in Japan- you can ask for details from: The Japanese have used the scheme which was recommended by Potapov to Chris and me, with immersion pump. I will send the drawings and the data to Infinite Energy and Fusion Facts. Potapov has applied for an Euro-patent, a global and fast solution. c) An improved type of Yusmar is produced now in Russia (will send a photography); the cyclone, the flanges and the vortex-breakers are different. The recirculation tube is pre-welded. The thing is very strong-looking. d) A fifth Jumbo device was added to the line of production: YUSMAR-5M working with a 65 kW motor and heating up to 70 standard rooms. e) The price of the licence for the Yusmars of M type is $ 1 mil. f) During his visit in the US in Dec. 1995. when he was awarded with the Torch of Birmingham, Potapov made good contacts with the people working and investing in the power industry and has founded a company. I can communicate the coordinates of this company to those interested in the commercial aspects. This company will added to the list of commercial CF companies published in Fusion Facts and Infinite Energy. g) Potapov has solved all the engineering problems of the latest generation of devices which produce both heat and electricity- the "Quantum thermoelectro generators". The following types are offered: Name Electrical power Thermal power Weight Appr. price KTES kW kW kg US $ 1 4 5 290 9,500 2 30 15 350 28,500 3 100 90 1,200 57,000 4 200 130 2,700 83,000 5 800 260 9,100 180,000 6 1,000 360 12,500 250,000 7 2,000 900 18,000 350,000 I have seen two of these, a KTSE-1 which generated electricity in 5 seconds after start-up (by an auxiliary motor) and a KTES-5 in construction; this later will generate electricity and hot water for the whole industrial area which will become energetically independent. Some 20 quantum generators are in different stages of construction. h) We discussed the tests made with the Yusmars in the United States and Potapov stated that his advises weren't followed. See the Japanese experiment. We have used the data published in Infinite Energy and my presentation of the St. Petersburg experiment. i) Potapov will present a small demo (quantum generator) at the "Central & East European Power Industry Forum"; Anichkov Congress Hall St. Petersburg, April 3 & 4, 1996 and at ICCF-6, Toya, Japan, Oct 1996. At ICCF-6 he will present a paper entitled: "PHYSICAL AND BIOLOGICAL PARAMETERS OF THE YUSMAR THERMOGENERATORS" An interesting phenomenon is the formation of ozone in the devices proving that the water molecules are really tormented there. An other aspect is that the performances are improved by long time functioning, the removal of gases from the recirculated water is a positive factor. No radiation was measured during the work of the device, except when using water contaminated due to the Chernobyl accident- here the gases (Radon?) coming out from the system are enriched in radioactive matter. j) Communication from Moldova is difficult, we tried to send faxes to a friend in US who was very helpful, to James Griggs (Potapov wants to collaborate with James and has some interesting ideas how the Hydrosonic Pumps can be improved), to the organizing committee of ICCF-6, etc. but we couldn't. I phoned to Prof. Sapogin in Moscow, who has improved essentially his theory which is now connected directly to Schrodinger's Equation, and in Holland. Yuri received a phone from Japan (and a lot from Russia, Ukraina etc.) k) Potapov has a lot of enemies in the academic circles, who continue to negate the possibility of obtaining excess energy. A story well known in Vortexia. One effect is that the Yusmars are standardized in all the former republics of the SU (TU norms the equivalents of ASTM) except Moldova. Just an unpleasant disonance in the triumphal march of the Yusmars. l) Being myself an engineer and inventor, I haven't asked Yuri any question from the realm of know-how. For me this is perfectly reasonable. (In one of the interesting Vortex messages I have received after my return here, Mike Mandeville had a brilliant remark re. the rights of the "cook") In any case, the Potapov Empire ("Yusmaria") is expanding rapidly and this means clean, cheap, abundant energy for everybody, everywhere. The Yusmars are the pioneers of the New Energy Era. Their acceptance and victory is beneficial for the whole field. Peter Gluck P.S. Thank you, Scott, for the good wishes for this travel. Perhaps you think that Yusmar Co. is a type of Potemkin village. Come and see yourself, friend! P.S. Potapov sends his best regard to Chris, he was very much impressed by his personality and by the Infinite Energy paper. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 02:28:57 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA15240 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 02:12:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA15232 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 02:12:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA04343; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:12:29 +0100 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:12:29 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Potapov In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks, Peter, for your extensive report on Potapov. I would like two bits of information. You say that, among other places, there are Yusmar's sold in Poland: OK, where, to whom? Then, Siemens in Germany has tested a device; which division of Siemens, where, who? This information cannot be confidential, surely. What is the cost of the smallest one? It seems to me that rather than pay the huge sum of $10^6 to be allowed to test devices, one could just buy one and test that - provided it costs less, of course. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 02:35:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA03214 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA02882 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:17:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c1p2.aa.net (s1c1p2.aa.net [204.157.220.174]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA02651 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:15:49 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602121915.LAA02651@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:15:15 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: Re vtx: Barker radioactivity effect Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:36 PM 2/9/96 -0800, you wrote: > >--- FORWARDED --- >From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) >Subject: Re: vtx: Barker Radioactivity effect >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 21:24:15 -0600 (CST) > >> Suggestion: Have a mineral speciment known to have some type of >> alpha emission radio dated by a GOOD geo radio dating lab .... have them >> wark the sample ... photograph is ... saw it in half .... have it marked, >> dated and photographed again ... so that EVERYONE is very clear there can >> be no mistake. >> Expose to 50 KV for 12 to 14 hours. Wait one year. Have it >> dated again. This is a quick and easy thing to .... you could probably >> run up 10 or 20 if you wanted. > >This seems to be an easy experiment to make multiple runs and most importantly, >have "nulls" in parallel. > >Simply get a sufficiently large amount of starting (radioactive) material. >Divide it up into several units. Run half the units in the mentioned >de-radioactivity regime, and keep the other half of the units away. > >Then as the processed ones "age", you can compare them against the unprocessed >ones. This will be useful to detect any trend in the processed units, and >it also will indicate aging sensistivity loss of the geiger counter if >both treated and untreaded samples show reductions (or increases) in decay >rates. > > >-- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - > - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - > > To get good consistent results you need to do three things: get the material well powdered and well mixed and have control and experimental in exactly the same type of container and in exactly the same weight. rigorously measure at precisely the same angle and same distance make the control and experimental readings every twentyfour hours at precisely the same time because background can fluctuate substantially over the day and you want as much as possile to reduce its variation before using mathematical corrections the less you have to use mathematical corrections due to variations in weight, time, etc., the better, becasuse not all variables (such as weight and distance) are linear. The non-linearity gets very subtle. For instance, the more weight, the greater the distance some of the material will have from the sensor, which of course affects the total count. How do you adjust for it? Fancy math from deep in the books. Why bother? ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 05:40:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA00853 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 05:20:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA00843 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 05:20:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-170.austin.eden.com (net-1-170.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.170]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id HAA13997 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 07:20:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 07:20:38 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602131320.HAA13997@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Potapov X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: What an upbeat report, Peter! Certainly sounds good... >P.S. Potapov sends his best regard to Chris, he was very much impressed >by his personality and by the Infinite Energy paper. Too bad he wouldn't help Chris with the St. Pete tests. What is Potapov afraid of?...or are we just annoying gnats on the lion's back? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 05:47:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA01729 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 05:29:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA01707 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 05:29:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mu.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA16464; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:29:08 +0100 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:29:08 +0100 Message-Id: <9602131329.AA16464@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: Transmutation,reply to M. Mandevile X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: yes,I am aware about the papers on transmutations,or at least I do not know the question,the problems,and the results at the required level of depth= that instead it is required in order to set up a scientific conclusion.For this= =20 reason, from several days,I am asking to components of vortex to give me detailed= in- formations and,in case, the results that were obtained and the experimental arrangement that was employed,but ,unfortunately,I am not receiving=20 informations. I ask ,in particular,the scientific relations or publications that were=20 developed to this regard. In fact,here the problem is the following:we are debating on vortex-l some= =20 aspects of a new theory that we have called Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics.As we by this time hnow,I think,this theory predices the possibility of some new= =20 physical processes,and,in particular,the theory predices the possibility of the cold= =20 fusion,in particular the cold fusion of the proton and electron to form neutron and=20 production of energy,about 80 kev,for each fusion.The theory has been extensively= published on proper scientific journals (see in particular the last number of Physics= =20 Essays that contains a complete exposition of the rules of this new theory) and we= have also a Book of Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics that should appear at few days and that we should obtain to translate also in english.The book contains a= =20 file in english explaining the experiments that we are performing,and this file has= been sended by me to vortex-l for the present discussion. At the present,we are attempting to realize for the first time in the story= =20 of science the experimental cold fusion of the proton and the electron to give the= neutron. Some experimental groups have interest in this moment to repeat our= experiments so to have final reproducible results. This is the matter of fact! Now,it is evident that the problem of the transmutations has a direct= relation with my research:if we should confirm experimentally our capability to form= the neutron via cold fusion of proton and electron,it is evident that we should= =20 open=20 the era of a new technology,and in particular that one connected to the=20 stimulated decay (the inverse of p+e--------->n).In other terms,we should have the=20 "biquaternion" technology following from the capability of stimulating the decay of=20 individual neutrons in a nuclear structure.This should allow to new=20 transmutations. Now,were the observed transmutations of the kind that are prediced from the biquaternion quantum mechanics? I cannot come together to examine this=20 important problem if I have not a detailed exposition of the experiments=20 that were performed and of the results that were obtained.For this I am asking to= vortex tyo send me texts,publications,......,results. Note that I have microsoftworks as editor of text to decodify the files. In other terms,the Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics could support the= transmuta- tions and such transmutations could support the Biquaternion Quantum= Mechanics, but to examine this problem,we nedd to analyze it in detail.Without results= in the hands,this operation is impossible. Sincerely.Elio Conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 05:49:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA00840 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 05:20:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA00821 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 05:20:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id FAA03251; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 05:20:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 05:20:38 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: transmutation in bio systems Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Zack Widup on another list reminded me about the book BIOLOGICAL TRANSMUTATIONS by Louis Kervran. I guess it's time for me to track down a copy, I hear that its contents are relevant to the current topic. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 05:55:19 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA01621 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 05:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA01615 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 05:28:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-170.austin.eden.com (net-1-170.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.170]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id HAA14383 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 07:28:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 07:28:29 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602131328.HAA14383@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Potapov, Dieter X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dieter said: >What is the cost of the smallest one? It seems to me that rather than pay >the huge sum of $10^6 to be allowed to test devices, one could just buy one >and test that - provided it costs less, of course. Dieter, did you join Vortex after our big Yusmar testing fest? Gene Mallove, myself, and a group in St. Petersburg have performed a variety of tests under a variety of conditions and observed no hint of excess energy. I followed pretty closely the recommended operating parameters given in the Yusmar instruction booklet and, when that didn't work, I also went on to achieve certain recommended aperture diamter ratios, etc. Still no luck. Would you like to read my test reports? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 06:10:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA02473 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 05:36:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA02465 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 05:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id FAA03659; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 05:36:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 05:36:47 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Potapov II Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:21:51 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Subject: Potapov II Re: Japanese Yusmar Experiments. One of my friends is now at Wakabayashi-san, the professor of Japanese at our local University for a complete translation of the documents coming from FIELD CO. However I was able to understand the raw data for two experiments. The setup is with immersed pump plus a Yusmar in a metal container. The water is recirculated in the container. 1-st experiment. 300 liters of water are heated from 23.5 to 55.2 deg Celsius in 100 minutes. The motor takes 11.5 Amps. (380 Volts). 2-nd experiment. 150 liters of water are heated from 31.0 to 87.6 deg Celsius in 170 minutes. The motor takes 7.5 Amps. (380 Volts). I have received now Dieter's message & questions: a) I have seen a card from Siemens at Yuri's desk but didn't read the name plus Dept. Will ask next time (soon) when the results shall be publishable. b) Export of Yusmars in Poland is the job of Eng. Leonard Radyno General Director of YURLE LTD. Minsk (from geopolitical reasons). Maybe we can ask Ben Filimonov. Yuri has mentioned that Radyno manufactures only first generation Yusmars i.e. not submersed. Having no doubts re. the reality of the o/u effect in the Yusmars and Quantum Generators the discussions were focused on the future demonstrations (e.g. at ICCF-6) and testing of these devices at prestigious institutes. The evolution of the Patterson Cell, despite its embrionary state of technological development is an example. Can you find a company interested in such heaters in Danmark? Peter Gluck From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 06:27:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA06607 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 06:10:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA06588 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 06:10:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA28586; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:10:09 +0100 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:10:09 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: transmutation in bio systems In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, William Beaty wrote: > > Zack Widup on another list reminded me about the book BIOLOGICAL > TRANSMUTATIONS by Louis Kervran. I guess it's time for me to track down > a copy, I hear that its contents are relevant to the current topic. > Some of you (those who have not seen the book) will sigh and think of me as the eternal skeptic (which I am not), but I have a copy of this book (i.e. a translation of it, the only edition one can get hold of), and let me tell you it's a heap of rubbish. There, I've said it. Kervran's "theories" are nothing more than number games with the periodic tables, in total ignorance of the nuclear effects accompanying fusion (and fission) events, plus purported experimental evidence, for which I would want to see more support than his (or his translator's) word. But, by all means, take a look at this thing. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 06:31:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA07111 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 06:14:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA07087 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 06:14:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA22961; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:14:05 +0100 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:14:05 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Potapov, Dieter In-Reply-To: <199602131328.HAA14383@natashya.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, Scott Little wrote: > Dieter said: > > >What is the cost of the smallest one? It seems to me that rather than pay > >the huge sum of $10^6 to be allowed to test devices, one could just buy one > >and test that - provided it costs less, of course. > > Dieter, did you join Vortex after our big Yusmar testing fest? Gene > Mallove, myself, and a group in St. Petersburg have performed a variety of > tests under a variety of conditions and observed no hint of excess energy. > I followed pretty closely the recommended operating parameters given in the > Yusmar instruction booklet and, when that didn't work, I also went on to > achieve certain recommended aperture diamter ratios, etc. Still no luck. > > Would you like to read my test reports? I was here alright, but seem to remember there was doubt about whether you got the real Potapov device, or one stripped of vital parts. Now you can buy the real thing (I see the smallest one costs under $10k) and surely Potapov would not cheat his customers by selling them one that doesn't work, eh? We could then restart all that discussion about tent calorimetry.. {:] - well, it'd be more fun than transmutation, I reckon. Bloody hell. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 07:11:08 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA13259 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 06:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA13248 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 06:56:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id JAA16519; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 09:55:41 -0500 Date: 13 Feb 96 09:53:01 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. Message-ID: <960213145300_100433.1541_BHG121-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Just a small point. 1-800 numbers are not available from outside N America, nor are UK 0800- numbers from outside the UK. Usually there is a 'normal' number available in parallel, so it would help people in Australia ("where men are men, amd sheep look nervous") if somebody in the US or Canada could call the free number and find out what the 'normal' equivalent is, so that it can be posted here. As for the Yusmar stuff, I appreciate Peter's message regarding Potapov's opinion. My opinion of Peter is very high indeed, but sadly mine of Potapov is not. Dieter's questions are fair and reasonable, and 'we' collectively have worked hard and spent much money - and been unable to trace a *single working machine to study* in the whole of the former Soviet Union. We have received precisely zero assistance from Potapov, despite spending Rothwell's good dollars on buying several of the beasts. In three independent tests, no positive results were found. None of which exactly proves anything at all, except that (a) the devices do not work for us, and (b) if they work under different conditions, we have been unable - despite serious efforts - to find out what the hell those are. I for one would most strongly recommend to Mr Griggs (whom I found to be a pleasant and unassuming sort of fellow) that he not involve himself in any collaborations of the kind suggested. On Michael Mandeville's comments, I would say that there is nothing to gained by 'roasting' any academics. This would be just be to do to others what we didn't like getting done to us. Mind you, it has to be said that some people do make my fist itch... Yesterday I was asked to take part in a UK radio science series, to speak on "cold fusion". I was told by the interviewer that the 50,000 sq ft facility with its large staff, set up by Toyota in the south of France for Fleischmann and Pons to continue their research, had only been built so that Toyota (indulging the poor old fool's delusions) would have access to Fleischmann the great electrochemist - in case they wanted his advice on car battery design!! I know perfectly well which British scientist spun them this incredible nonsense (no prizes for guessing), but the Big Lie technique still works on me to a degree, this was so bizarre a notion that it quite unsettled me for a moment. I suppose I should laugh, and in the longer term it is merely funny I know. Just a bit irritating right now, that's all. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 11:48:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA01437 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:31:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA01375 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p1.aa.net (s3c0p1.aa.net [204.157.220.133]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA28910 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:30:21 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602131930.LAA28910@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 11:29:53 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: transmutation in bio systems Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:20 AM 2/13/96 -0800, you wrote: > >Zack Widup on another list reminded me about the book BIOLOGICAL >TRANSMUTATIONS by Louis Kervran. I guess it's time for me to track down >a copy, I hear that its contents are relevant to the current topic. > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > > Kervran's work was mentioned in the Morning of the Magicians. It was the first work which demonstrated a lot of hard evidence that theoretical physics at the time was very late from getting back from lunch at the Big Bang Correll. They are only know starting to trickle back in. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 12:08:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA05489 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:52:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA05435 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:52:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:52:06 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer@gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199602131952.LAA05435@mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:52:02 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Potapov II Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Re: Japanese Yusmar Experiments. > >One of my friends is now at Wakabayashi-san, the professor >of Japanese at our local University for a complete translation >of the documents coming from FIELD CO. However I was able to >understand the raw data for two experiments. >The setup is with immersed pump plus a Yusmar in a metal container. >The water is recirculated in the container. > >1-st experiment. >300 liters of water are heated from 23.5 to 55.2 deg Celsius in >100 minutes. The motor takes 11.5 Amps. (380 Volts). > >2-nd experiment. >150 liters of water are heated from 31.0 to 87.6 deg Celsius in >170 minutes. The motor takes 7.5 Amps. (380 Volts). > If this is a normal 3-phase power system, the total volt-amp into the motor is given by (Sqrt 3) X V_line-line X I_line. In Exp. 1 this is (1.73)(380 V)(11.5 A) = 7.6 kVA, and in Exp. 2 it is 4.9 kVA. The thermal power is (sp. heat)(mass)(delta T)/time, if heat leaks are negligible. (If heat leaks were significant, then that fact should be mentioned; otherwise the data do not characterize the Yusmar.) In Exp. 1 the thermal power is (4185 j/kg/C)(300 kg)(31.7 C)/(6000 s) = 6600 j/s = 6.6 kW. In Exp. 2 the result is 3.5 kW. In neither experiment does the raw data support a claim of over unity. Michael J. Schaffer michael.schaffer@gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 12:50:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA13365 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 12:37:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAB13291 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 12:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-161.austin.eden.com (net-1-161.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.161]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id OAA15818 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:36:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:36:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602132036.OAA15818@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Potapov II, Peter! X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike Schaffer says: >If this is a normal 3-phase power system, the total volt-amp into the motor >is given by (Sqrt 3) X V_line-line X I_line. In Exp. 1 this is (1.73)(380 >V)(11.5 A) = 7.6 kVA, and in Exp. 2 it is 4.9 kVA. >The thermal power is (sp. heat)(mass)(delta T)/time, if heat leaks are >negligible. (If heat leaks were significant, then that fact should be >mentioned; otherwise the data do not characterize the Yusmar.) In Exp. 1 >the thermal power is (4185 j/kg/C)(300 kg)(31.7 C)/(6000 s) = 6600 j/s = >6.6 kW. In Exp. 2 the result is 3.5 kW. > >In neither experiment does the raw data support a claim of over unity. You are correct...IF the motor was 3-phase...otherwise, with a single-phase motor, the data does indicate o-u as I noted earlier. Peter, we need to find out what kind of motor they used! Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 13:36:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA22083 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:24:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA22060 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:24:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:24:15 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer@gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199602132124.NAA22060@mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:24:06 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Potapov II, Peter! Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Mike Schaffer says: > >>If this is a normal 3-phase power system, ..... >>In neither experiment does the raw data support a claim of over unity. Scott Little says: >You are correct...IF the motor was 3-phase...otherwise, with a single-phase >motor, the data does indicate o-u as I noted earlier. > 380 V (line-line) is a standard 3-phase value in Europe and much of the world; it yields 220 V line-ground, which is delivered to households. Unless we learn otherwise, it is highly likely that the 380 V was 3-phase, line-to-line.J0||, Michael J. Schaffer michael.schaffer@gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 14:00:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA26534 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:49:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA26466 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:49:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-161.austin.eden.com (net-1-111.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.111]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id PAA22017 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:49:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:49:02 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602132149.PAA22017@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Potapov II, Peter! X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike Schaffer says: >380 V (line-line) is a standard 3-phase value in Europe and much of the >world; it yields 220 V line-ground, which is delivered to households. >Unless we learn otherwise, it is highly likely that the 380 V was 3-phase, >line-to-line.J0||, Thanks for the insightful analysis, Mike. Their 380VAC3PH must be like our 208VAC3PH from which we derive 120VAC single phase. OK, Peter, it's looking grim for o-u in the Japanese tests. Please correct us if our assumptions are wrong. Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 14:48:03 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA04451 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:31:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA04412 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:31:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQacuj07348; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 17:29:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA50287; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:28:11 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 254226140096044FEPRI; 13 Feb 1996 14:26:14 PST Message-Id: Date: 13 Feb 1996 14:26:14 PST From: "Mark Hugo, Northern" Subject: vtx: Info for Chris T. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/13/96 14:26:41 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Info for Chris T. - Chris: Please call "Poynder's Guest House", 181-673-2043. Call them after 7:00PM, during a weekday evening. Ask to speak to "Steven". (You may run into Tracy, the manageress of the place---a real space cadet....you want to talk to her alledge boyfriend "Steven", as he knows what and where the thermal radiometer is (hidden!). It's your's to pick up. I suggested that a 5 pound note to Steven might be in order, but Steven pooh-poohed that. - Anyway, the address is 20 Poynder's Road. Let's put it this way, it is within 1/2 mile of the Clapham South Tube Station. I trust you can find this 4 block long road on a detailed London map. If you have an intense thermal radiative source, this device will allow you to quantify it. You will need a good millivolt meter, that's all. - Mark H. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 15:08:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA08772 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA08735 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:53:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQactq24620; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 12:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA56112; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 07:49:42 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 192248070096044FEPRI; 13 Feb 1996 07:48:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 13 Feb 1996 07:48:07 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/13/96 07:48:20 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/13/96 07:11 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. Chris, that "battery" comment on P&F's lab----HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Proves that some people with titles and "position" are INSANE. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 22:30:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA08977 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 22:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from bos1e.delphi.com (SYSTEM@bos1e.delphi.com [192.80.63.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA08937 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 22:13:58 -0800 (PST) From: JOEFLYNN@delphi.com Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V5.0-6 #10880) id <01I16OGUEQ349APGWI@delphi.com> for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 01:12:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 01:12:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <01I16OGUEZQQ9APGWI@delphi.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"vortex-l@eskimo.com" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Some people are, they've must have never heard of a transistor... is the base current = to the emitter collector current. why polymer beads why not glass? some people are not in the state of the art, what about lithium tech's polmer lithium cell? some people never heard of the new polymer solid state devices such as LED,s I'll bet if I connected a resistor and a battery across a power transistor's emitter & collector stuck it in a black box ran a wire from the base and the battery ground out of the box hooked a small watch battery to the wires, some "sane" engineer would wonder where in the heck is all of the heat coming from with so little input. I am pro cold fusion, so that makes me a little insane from the start, but I don't let the forest get in the way of the trees. Proof is not always in measurement but in understanding. Us insane people usually ask what are conventional causes to effects and rule them out first. look at all the materials even the polymers that might not be so benign as they would appear. I truly would like to understand how the patterson cell works, so possibly a sane engineer will take the time to explain it to everyone, so both me and Chris can be impressed. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 23:58:23 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA14029 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 22:49:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA14016 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 22:49:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-185.austin.eden.com (net-1-185.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.185]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id AAA02722 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 00:49:18 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 00:49:18 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602140649.AAA02722@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: "sane" folks X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Joe Flynn said: >I truly would like to understand how the patterson cell works, >so possibly a sane engineer will take the time to explain it to >everyone, so both me and Chris can be impressed. Before we can really sink our teeth into HOW the thing works, we need to see IF it really works. That's what we're about to do (maybe) with the ersatz beads. Suppose for a horrible moment that none of us gets positive results with the ersatz beads...I wonder if that event would pry loose some real beads from CETI for a comparison? That would certainly make hay for them, wouldn't it? ...unless, of course, their beads don't show positive results either when subjected to rigorous calorimetric measurement. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 00:23:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA23895 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 00:04:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA23890 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 00:04:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA21448; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 09:04:26 +0100 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 09:04:26 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 13 Feb 1996, MHUGO@EPRI wrote: > *** Reply to note of 02/13/96 07:11 > From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. > Subject: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. > Chris, that "battery" comment on P&F's lab----HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Proves > that some people with titles and "position" are INSANE. MDH 1. The idea is not all that dumb. Toyota is said to be nousy business people, so I'd expect them to be very skeptical of CNF, rather than instantly starry eyed. So they might very well have said to each other, let's throw a bit of money at this just in case; if it doesn't work out, we have Fleischmann on tap. 2. The above is purely imaginative. Chris was broadly hinting at the source of this rumour, and we all know whom he means, no? He does have a title, and a position, but crazy he is not. I have fairly regular contact with him and he throws me the odd confidence; he has never mentioned anything like this. I'll be seeing him in April, when he comes here to give a couple of lectures (no, he won't say a word on The Subject, it'll be 100% straight physics), and I'll ask him. Be careful not to spread rumours, good people, and denigrate people just for not adhering to the same beliefs as you do. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 00:50:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA25395 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 00:17:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA25375 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 00:17:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id DAA19771; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 03:16:25 -0500 Date: 14 Feb 96 03:14:36 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. Message-ID: <960214081435_100060.173_JHB61-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Joe said, >> I'll bet if I connected a resistor and a battery across a power transistor's emitter & collector stuck it in a black box << I hope your not suggesting the "F" word here - a lot of different people have reproduced the Patterson effect. Or are you introducing an explanation, i.e. the inadvertant construction of a multi-cell battery? If so where does the initial charge come from in the Patterson version? If its chemical, then it will have a very short life running at the power indicated, and the beads, or whichever is the storage medium, will be consumed. There is evidence of deterioration of the metal coating with time and current density, but I don't think anyone has weighed the beads before and after a long run. The need for the electrolyte to be circulated is a possible indication of the consumption of some component during the heat generation, at least local to the beads. It would therefore be interesting if we had an analysis of the electrolyte before and after a long run. Vortexians, please forgive me if I'm teaching my grandma to suck eggs, but the experimental data is somewhat scattered and seemingly incomplete to my basic Engineering understanding. Turning to the latest Potapov info. - Like Chris T. I find it difficult to trust anything coming out of that source, and until someone outside the Russian area has a working version which shows anything approaching ou I'm very skeptical. At least Griggs and his Hydrosonic thingie is open and cooperative - but he is an Engineer, albeit an electrical version. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 01:37:03 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA29738 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA29632 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p1.aa.net (s3c0p1.aa.net [204.157.220.133]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA28317 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:21:02 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602131921.LAA28317@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 11:20:34 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: transmutation in bio systems Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:10 PM 2/13/96 +0100, you wrote: >On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, William Beaty wrote: > >> >> Zack Widup on another list reminded me about the book BIOLOGICAL >> TRANSMUTATIONS by Louis Kervran. I guess it's time for me to track down >> a copy, I hear that its contents are relevant to the current topic. >> > >Some of you (those who have not seen the book) will sigh and think of me as >the eternal skeptic (which I am not), but I have a copy of this book (i.e. a >translation of it, the only edition one can get hold of), and let me tell you >it's a heap of rubbish. There, I've said it. Kervran's "theories" are nothing >more than number games with the periodic tables, in total ignorance of the >nuclear effects accompanying fusion (and fission) events, plus purported >experimental evidence, for which I would want to see more support than his >(or his translator's) word. But, by all means, take a look at this thing. > >-- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk > > I read his work about six years ago. It was the first tangible evidence which suggested that modern physics wasn't just incomplete, it was wrong on precisely the phenomenon you mention above. This is the entire crux of the cold fusion debate. Watch closely Champion's material, Dieter, SOME OF US KNOW FROM DIRECT EXPERIENCE THAT COLD FUSION/TRANSMUTATION DOES IN FACT OCCUR. Champion knows, I know, Keller knows, Bockris knows, Barker knows, Roberto Monti knows. WE KNOW. Conte probably knows and is trying to theoretically prove his knowledge. The theories don't matter. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 01:39:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA20538 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 07:39:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA20509 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 07:39:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-205.austin.eden.com (net-1-205.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.205]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id JAA22523 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 09:39:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 09:39:28 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602131539.JAA22523@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Potapov II X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Peter said: >1-st experiment. >300 liters of water are heated from 23.5 to 55.2 deg Celsius in >100 minutes. The motor takes 11.5 Amps. (380 Volts). This is an apparent C.O.P. of 1.519 >2-nd experiment. >150 liters of water are heated from 31.0 to 87.6 deg Celsius in >170 minutes. The motor takes 7.5 Amps. (380 Volts). This is an apparent C.O.P. of 1.203 Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 01:40:32 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA00583 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:26:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA00549 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:25:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p1.aa.net (s3c0p1.aa.net [204.157.220.133]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA28583 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:25:37 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602131925.LAA28583@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 11:25:08 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Transmutation,reply to M. Mandevile Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:29 PM 2/13/96 +0100, you wrote: >yes,I am aware about the papers on transmutations,or at least I do not know >the question,the problems,and the results at the required level of depth that >instead it is required in order to set up a scientific conclusion.For this >reason, >from several days,I am asking to components of vortex to give me detailed in- >formations and,in case, the results that were obtained and the experimental >arrangement that was employed,but ,unfortunately,I am not receiving >informations. Prof Conte: >From your response I still cannot determine if you have seen the lengthy document by Roberto Monti in which he presents a model of the permissable transmutations of matter. At one time he worked for the Istituto T.E.S.R. in Bologna. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 01:41:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA06445 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 17:21:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA06326 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 17:20:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id UAA06045; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 20:18:54 -0500 Date: 13 Feb 96 20:17:33 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Radon, Kervran, insanity Message-ID: <960214011733_100433.1541_BHG37-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A To:Vortex I can't understand this at all. Scientists at Bristol U are saying that power lines concentrate radon gas, thus increasing the cancer rate near them. This makes no sense to me. Does it make any sense to anyone else? Dieter's comments on Kervran are taken. Certainly K's theories/explanantions seem utterly absurd. But as to his experimental data, that seems to me maybe less easy to dispose of. Certainly there seems to be some level of replication. I just don't know, but I feel it is perhaps worth remembering that strange reports of experimental results are often accompanied by stranger theories - CF must surely be the pre-eminent example of this. One should not automatically trash reports by possibly false association with the bad theories which accompany them. Huizenga on TV tried on the 'recombination' idea, then moved in for the kill with the "no radiation proves it is not fusion therefore the heat doesn't exist" argument. (Chris finds convenient wall to bang his head against). Mark comments that some 'establishment' scientists must be 'insane' for proposing ideas like the one about the battery reseach centre near Nice. Mark, I would suggest to you that self-deception or insanity is insufficient to explain such claims. Er - we Brits are often accused of ellipticity in our comments. So if I've not made myself abundantly clear, I mean that the bugger is deliberately lying. What is even funnier/sadder is that the poor radio producers believed him. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 02:01:31 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA29742 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA29625 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:21:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p1.aa.net (s3c0p1.aa.net [204.157.220.133]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA28322 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:21:06 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602131921.LAA28322@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 11:20:37 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:53 AM 2/13/96 EST, you wrote: >To:Vortex > >Just a small point. 1-800 numbers are not available from outside N America, >nor are UK 0800- numbers from outside the UK. Usually there is a 'normal' >number available in parallel, so it would help people in Australia ("where >men are men, amd sheep look nervous") if somebody in the US or Canada could >call the free number and find out what the 'normal' equivalent is, so that >it can be posted here. > >As for the Yusmar stuff, I appreciate Peter's message regarding Potapov's >opinion. My opinion of Peter is very high indeed, but sadly mine of Potapov >is not. Dieter's questions are fair and reasonable, and 'we' collectively >have worked hard and spent much money - and been unable to trace a *single >working machine to study* in the whole of the former Soviet Union. We have >received precisely zero assistance from Potapov, despite spending Rothwell's >good dollars on buying several of the beasts. In three independent tests, no >positive results were found. > >None of which exactly proves anything at all, except that (a) the devices do >not work for us, and (b) if they work under different conditions, we have >been unable - despite serious efforts - to find out what the hell those are. > >I for one would most strongly recommend to Mr Griggs (whom I found to be a >pleasant and unassuming sort of fellow) that he not involve himself in any >collaborations of the kind suggested. > >On Michael Mandeville's comments, I would say that there is nothing to >gained by 'roasting' any academics. This would be just be to do to others >what we didn't like getting done to us. > You keep reducing it to this and I categorically reject it. I don't have any academics I propose to roast. People need to be educated. This area is so emotional at basic levels that IT IS CONFRONTATIONAL no matter how you pusyfoot around. The issue might as well be directly joined. The issue is that the modern academic/educational game does not work. Hasn't worked for a long time for most. Most people just fake it. We sustain "conventional realities" because people are just faking it. Huizinca, whatever sp, was just faking it on TV. He twitched visably everytime he realized he was faking it. He twitched a lot. Politicians, lawyers, educators, far too many walk around faking it a great deal of the time with knee jerk reactions which don't relate to anything which is real but are designed to maximize their own presence at the expense of someone else. That's the issue. We have an enormous load of people in authority positions who have fundamental problems delivering basic intellectual honesty. That's the issue. This problem is least acceptable in the academic institutions. Our grands and great ancestors sacrificed a great deal in the hopes that public institutions of that type would help improve the world and help keep the politicians a little more honest. It is right that we should be most impatient and demanding of those who have the mantle of that sacrifice. Everybody just wants to deal with it as if it were money. Hey man, it is living blood and hope of my ancestors. >Mind you, it has to be said that some people do make my fist itch... >Yesterday I was asked to take part in a UK radio science series, to speak on >"cold fusion". I was told by the interviewer that the 50,000 sq ft facility >with its large staff, set up by Toyota in the south of France for >Fleischmann and Pons to continue their research, had only been built so that >Toyota (indulging the poor old fool's delusions) would have access to >Fleischmann the great electrochemist - in case they wanted his advice on car >battery design!! I know perfectly well which British scientist spun them >this incredible nonsense (no prizes for guessing), but the Big Lie technique >still works on me to a degree, this was so bizarre a notion that it quite >unsettled me for a moment. I suppose I should laugh, and in the longer term >it is merely funny I know. Just a bit irritating right now, that's all. > > > >Chris > > read my repost above one more time Chris. Think upon what I am trying to communicate. I am earnestly trying to tell the basic truth as it is, not engage in some sort of vindictive witch-hunt, which is not likely, since my Patron Saint, in a manner of speaking, is San Bruno, who has one of the first victims of the Pope's counter-reaction to the Renaissance. He was burned at the stake. You can see him in better spirits at my website. I keep mentioning this stuff on vortex because of you who here who are in the communication game. I hope you take full advantage of the coming opportunities to point out all sorts of little lessons about the "evil perils" of the "conventional realities" which self-styled cults of experts walk around while "faking it" for their cult followers. That sort of thing...in a thousand guises from ten thousand angles. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 03:10:55 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA06341 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 17:20:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from bchnetgw.bchydro.bc.ca (bchnetgw.BCHydro.BC.CA [142.52.88.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA06165 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 17:19:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by bchnetgw.bchydro.bc.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12602; Tue, 13 Feb 96 17:18:02 PST Received: from bchgate.bchydro.bc.ca by bchnetgw via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma012600; Tue Feb 13 17:17:59 1996 Received: by BCHydro.bc.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29805; Tue, 13 Feb 96 17:17:56 PST Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 17:17:56 PST Message-Id: <9602140117.AA29805@BCHydro.bc.ca> Received: from unknown by bchgate via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma029777; Tue Feb 13 17:17:21 1996 X-Sender: wfajber@bchgate X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Will Fajber Subject: Re: vtx: Potapov II Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I would note that the density of water changes quite a bit as it warms, and the following numbers should not be used as precise. At 11:52 AM 2/13/96 -0800, you wrote: >> Re: Japanese Yusmar Experiments. >> >>One of my friends is now at Wakabayashi-san, the professor >>of Japanese at our local University for a complete translation >>of the documents coming from FIELD CO. However I was able to >>understand the raw data for two experiments. >>The setup is with immersed pump plus a Yusmar in a metal container. >>The water is recirculated in the container. >> >>1-st experiment. >>300 liters of water are heated from 23.5 to 55.2 deg Celsius in >>100 minutes. The motor takes 11.5 Amps. (380 Volts). >> >>2-nd experiment. >>150 liters of water are heated from 31.0 to 87.6 deg Celsius in >>170 minutes. The motor takes 7.5 Amps. (380 Volts). >> >If this is a normal 3-phase power system, the total volt-amp into the motor >is given by (Sqrt 3) X V_line-line X I_line. In Exp. 1 this is (1.73)(380 >V)(11.5 A) = 7.6 kVA, and in Exp. 2 it is 4.9 kVA. > >The thermal power is (sp. heat)(mass)(delta T)/time, if heat leaks are >negligible. (If heat leaks were significant, then that fact should be >mentioned; otherwise the data do not characterize the Yusmar.) In Exp. 1 >the thermal power is (4185 j/kg/C)(300 kg)(31.7 C)/(6000 s) = 6600 j/s = >6.6 kW. In Exp. 2 the result is 3.5 kW. > >In neither experiment does the raw data support a claim of over unity. > >Michael J. Schaffer michael.schaffer@gat.com >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 >General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA > > > > Regards, Will ------------------------------------------------------------------ Will Fajber Nothing is impossible for wfajber@bchydro.bc.ca those who don't have to 604.528.1921 do the work. 604.528.1883 (fax) - cynical desk calendar -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQBtAzC71EcAAAEDANwX8jySRLlhm/Nyk0aywj0me58QqVA+4EMQKyVP9NuCc9Dw LJNtw7nqO/gBTbKEF/kZaAdnn5Y+9r/7PQ08dmjVUaAfxSMcEzZ49xtpwDx7WlV8 TWaw+U0nrLYNMFvhLQAFEbQmV2lsbCBSLiBGYWpiZXIgPHdmYWpiZXJAYmNoeWRy by5iYy5jYT4= =d1cU -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 04:36:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA11650 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 03:17:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA11644 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 03:17:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA28455; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 12:17:16 +0100 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 12:17:16 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Vortex-l archives? In-Reply-To: <9602140117.AA29805@BCHydro.bc.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Please remind me, someone: where was the site at which all past items posted to this list are stored? Thank you. As so often, I prematurely wiped something. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 06:47:45 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA00270 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 06:23:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA00261 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 06:23:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id GAA25068; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 06:23:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 06:22:59 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: To Scott Little Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 08:44:13 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Subject: To Scott Little Dear Scott: Thank you for your appreciation of my Potapov report which is, grosso modo, just a collection of facts. Sometimes it is difficult to choose between being polite and being straight or efficient/convincing; however I have no choice between being busy and winning in polemics. I prefer to lose because I'm sure the facts I believe in, will eventually win. So let's make short: You wrote: " I followed pretty closely the recommended operating parameters" Not closely enough according to Potapov who had let you know that you have made four big 'errors', besides having a bad setup with an open loop. You haven't restarted the experiment after getting his recommendations by fax. Not closely enough, according to my opinion based on the culture/mode of thinking of engineering. You couldn't accept my working hypothesis but as far as I know you hadn't worked out an alternative. You have used a good logic but unfortunately you hadn't get the correct presumptions or starting data. We also have different priorities: - you -the (accuracy of) measurement; - Potapov (and I)-the (enhancement of) effect. The inlet pressure and the flow do not define completely the system. In any case, if you consider that you have done a "good experiment" you have no other choice than to consider that the Yusmar is a dummy. A dummy proliferating like rabbits in Australia. You also wrote that he didn't helped Chris to perform a successful experiment at St. Petersburg. Has one of the Russian friends of Chris asked for help? According to my understanding (and Yuri has confirmed it) even he is not able to get excess energy from a Yusmar with no recirculation tube, having no heat-sink and.. (I almost wrote "being captive in a tent" but I rapidly renounced, any time I am thinking on this subject my blood pressure raises to a double value, therefore please neglect this part of the message). I have precisely predicted the outcome of the St. Petersburg test but it made me very unhappy. I will abstain from any dispute but my offer to arrange a visit to Potapov for you is serious. You wrote: "What is Potapov afraid of?" Any inventor could easily answer this question. Do you have an other friend in this category, not particularly popular at Vortex? I hope that you consider me a friend despite the differences in opinion and in culture between us, not West vs East, not capitalism vs. communism but science vs technology, OK? You asked: "Or are we just annoying gnats on the lion's back?" A wonderful example of a genuine unanswerable question. All the best wishes from Peter! Special good wishes for all vortexians for St.Valentine's Day! From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 06:50:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA00125 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 06:21:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA29965 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 06:21:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id GAA24982; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 06:21:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 06:21:32 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: Vortex-l archives? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 07:42:34 -0600 (CST) Dieter asks: > Please remind me, someone: where was the site at which all past items posted > to this list are stored? There is an archive at: http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wvort.html maintained by Bill Beaty. I have a link to it also in my web page. However, I don't recall if recent messages appear there right away or only after some collection date. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 07:29:33 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA07638 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 07:10:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA07607 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 07:09:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-192.austin.eden.com (net-1-218.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.218]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id JAA07734 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 09:09:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 09:09:45 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602141509.JAA07734@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: To Scott Little X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Peter, I do like you. You've got conviction and that's what gets things done in this world. I'll agree instantly that I could have missed the Potapov effect in my tests...they were far from "completely rigorous". It will take only one small item to make me eagerly resume my testing: a half-decent written report of an o-u Yusmar measurement performed by another lab. Perhaps the Japanese report you mentioned fits this description. Have you determined if the motor was 3 Phase? Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 13 14:14:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA28543 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:59:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from nz1.netzone.com (root@netzone.com [206.43.36.70]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA28477 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:59:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-ip-108.netzone.com (phx-ip-50.netzone.com [206.43.37.50]) by nz1.netzone.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA17800 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:50:22 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:50:22 -0700 Message-Id: <199602132150.OAA17800@nz1.netzone.com> X-Sender: discpub@netzone.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Joe Champion Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On February 12, 1996 we were successful in isolating 130 grams of OsO2 from the nuclear synthesis of 2.2 kg of Pb during a 90 minute reaction. The material is being shipped today for analysis. I will have the answer on Feb. 15, and will report the results. This was our first major production of Os. Joe Champion e-mail: discpub@netzone.com http://www.netzone.com/~discpub From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 08:40:39 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA06791 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 07:05:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA06688 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 07:04:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA29998; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:04:12 +0100 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:04:11 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: To Scott Little In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 14 Feb 1996, William Beaty wrote (actually Mihai Jalobeanu wrote, and really really actually, Peter Glueck wrote) [...] > dummy. A dummy proliferating like rabbits in Australia. No more! A disease has been prematurely released there, and now people are realising that actually, they don't want rabbits wiped out, they were making money from them, but they are being (wiped out). I just mention it. [...] > (I almost wrote "being captive in a tent" but I rapidly renounced, > any time I am thinking on this subject my blood pressure raises > to a double value, therefore please neglect this part of the message). As so often, this reminds me of a Jewish joke: A tailor sends telegram to cloth supplier "SEND 6 BALES BLUE SATIN STOP WIFE SAYS WE HAVE ENOUGH STOP SEND NOTHING STOP" > All the best wishes from Peter! > Special good wishes for all vortexians for St.Valentine's Day! In the USA, this means very large cakes and machine guns. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 10:19:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA07309 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:02:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (windski@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA07258; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:01:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:01:47 -0800 (PST) From: Tony Rusi To: Scott Little cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: "sane" folks In-Reply-To: <199602140649.AAA02722@natashya.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Two independant teams at major universities are doing work independantly of CETI, so anyone should be able to repeat the work. Where are you loacated? On Wed, 14 Feb 1996, Scott Little wrote: > Joe Flynn said: > > >I truly would like to understand how the patterson cell works, > >so possibly a sane engineer will take the time to explain it to > >everyone, so both me and Chris can be impressed. > > Before we can really sink our teeth into HOW the thing works, we need to see > IF it really works. That's what we're about to do (maybe) with the ersatz > beads. > > Suppose for a horrible moment that none of us gets positive results with the > ersatz beads...I wonder if that event would pry loose some real beads from > CETI for a comparison? That would certainly make hay for them, wouldn't it? > > ...unless, of course, their beads don't show positive results either when > subjected to rigorous calorimetric measurement. > > > > From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 10:56:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA14229 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:37:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA14148 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:37:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c2p0.aa.net (s1c2p0.aa.net [204.157.220.180]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA07265 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:36:58 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602141836.KAA07265@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:36:26 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Radon, Kervran, insanity Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:17 PM 2/13/96 EST, you wrote: >To:Vortex > >I can't understand this at all. Scientists at Bristol U are saying that power >lines concentrate radon gas, thus increasing the cancer rate near them. > >This makes no sense to me. Does it make any sense to anyone else? > >Dieter's comments on Kervran are taken. Certainly K's theories/explanantions >seem utterly absurd. They seem absurd only if you believed that the last generation of physicists had it all together. If you considered their theories to just be another quack on the pond, ah, so to speak (we have a lot of ducks around here), Kervran poises no problem whatsoever. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 11:02:32 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA16069 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:47:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA16039 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:47:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQacxn22726; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 13:47:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA56215; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:47:11 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 285645100096045FEPRI; 14 Feb 1996 10:45:10 PST Message-Id: Date: 14 Feb 1996 10:45:10 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/14/96 10:45:55 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/14/96 00:23 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. Dieter: I have to pull rank on you now. I have been to three Cold Fusion conferences. I have pulled down the occasional Jack Daniels with Martin and Stanley. The very thought that Toyota has put forth this money and effort because "if it is wrong, they still end up with a couple of fine electro-chemists to work on "battery" research" is nonsense. Let's make one thing perfectly clear, Cold Fusion is real, and it occurs. To do it in a Pd/D2 system requires an extrodinarily carefully balanced electro- chemical system. Please access the info from the Electric Power Research Inst. on their work. Stanley and Martin will do NOTHING else but work on CF the rest of their lives. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 11:03:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA15026 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:42:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA15009 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQacxm21841; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 13:42:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA57184; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:42:11 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 640741100096045FEPRI; 14 Feb 1996 10:41:10 PST Message-Id: Date: 14 Feb 1996 10:41:10 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: NOTE 02/14/96 01:16:00 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/14/96 10:41:06 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/14/96 01:16 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: NOTE 02/14/96 01:16:00 Joe: Could you do some of this work at Los Alamos, UNDER GUARD? OK, I understan d, there might be "proprietary" in here somewhere. However, what I'm thinking about is an ultimate "quality assurence" I.e., a way to show people this is no stage magic trick. I might trust you, but remember what you are saying and doing---i.e., consider the RAW EMOTION thrown against CF. Multiply by a factor of 10 to 100, and that's what you are going to have thrown against you! MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 11:14:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA17042 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA16974 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:52:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from iota.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA25768; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:50:18 +0100 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:50:18 +0100 Message-Id: <9602141850.AA25768@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: Reply to Mandelive X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: No. I do not know this document. Sincerely. Elio Conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 11:15:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA17811 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:56:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA17664 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:55:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c1p2.aa.net (s1c1p2.aa.net [204.157.220.174]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA08294 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:55:13 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602141855.KAA08294@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:54:41 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Radon, Kervran, insanity Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:17 PM 2/13/96 EST, you wrote: >To:Vortex > >I can't understand this at all. Scientists at Bristol U are saying that power >lines concentrate radon gas, thus increasing the cancer rate near them. > >This makes no sense to me. Does it make any sense to anyone else? > not really, but start with: a semi or somewhat ionized tube of air, pretty fat one, extending down the length of the power transmission line, with the tube very nearly touching the ground. Radon of course is the typical end product of an element or isotope which is decaying into a stable form, such as lead. The isotopes which are decaying into radon are under foot in a great range of places in many forms in dilute quantities. Its half life is very short, a few days. It is loaded with electron shells and most likely is easily ionized, probably easier than any of the other gases, but I am guessing about that. Radon, the gas, is trully intruiquing as a structure, atom per atom, it is heavier than most of the metals. Consequently, it probably doesnt move much into the atmosphere most of the time. It is found in abundance in holes, basements, mines, that sort of place, CLOSE TO THE GROUND from whence it springs. Now add the ionizing charge around the power lines and the trickle of electron flow which results, voila, the motive force for the movement of radom into the ionized tube of air. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 11:29:44 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA09268 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA09249 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:11:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamltndt.cias.com (hamltndt.cais.com [205.252.26.60]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.10/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA10999 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 13:11:35 -0500 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 13:11:35 -0500 Message-Id: <199602141811.NAA10999@cais.cais.com> X-Sender: hamltndt@cais.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hamltndt@cais.cais.com (Danny & Terry) Subject: Re: vtx: Potapov II Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael J. Schaffer wrote: >> Re: Japanese Yusmar Experiments. >> snip >>1-st experiment. >>300 liters of water are heated from 23.5 to 55.2 deg Celsius in >>100 minutes. The motor takes 11.5 Amps. (380 Volts). >> >>2-nd experiment. >>150 liters of water are heated from 31.0 to 87.6 deg Celsius in >>170 minutes. The motor takes 7.5 Amps. (380 Volts). >> >If this is a normal 3-phase power system, the total volt-amp into the motor >is given by (Sqrt 3) X V_line-line X I_line. In Exp. 1 this is (1.73)(380 >V)(11.5 A) = 7.6 kVA, and in Exp. 2 it is 4.9 kVA. > >The thermal power is (sp. heat)(mass)(delta T)/time, if heat leaks are >negligible. (If heat leaks were significant, then that fact should be >mentioned; otherwise the data do not characterize the Yusmar.) In Exp. 1 >the thermal power is (4185 j/kg/C)(300 kg)(31.7 C)/(6000 s) = 6600 j/s = >6.6 kW. In Exp. 2 the result is 3.5 kW. > >In neither experiment does the raw data support a claim of over unity. snip For those of us who aren't familiar with the Potapov device.... Do the power numbers represent the total power supplied to the experiment or just the Potapov device? If the numbers represent all of the power being supplied, don't you have to take into account energy used to move the water and some of the other factors you've been discussing with the Patterson cell? Does anyone have (or can you guess at) comparable numbers for conventional heating devices, i.e. power in to heat out? Some say I like to fight windmills, I really like to win. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 11:44:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA21651 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 11:16:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA21520 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 11:15:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA09969; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:14:14 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28283; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:06:35 -0500 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:06:35 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602141906.AA28283@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: possible positional variation in calorimeters Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear colleagues, It has been near impossible to post full text to vortex-l for reasons unclear presently. This is pertinent post to subjects discussed here. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) ====== post to follow (perhaps ;-)X) In Message-ID: <4focs2$sls@nuntius.u-net.net> Subject: Re: Magnum 350 Run David Gaskill writes: (referring to Mitchell Jones) "Your work has clearly demonstrated that the CETI demonstration apparatus was incapable of dissipating the power that the calorimetry indicated that the cell was producing. One or more of the calorimeter measurements was wrong. " Although David may be correct, there is another alternative. <-- Perhaps the thermometry was reasonable, but the calorimetric equation applied was wrong, because it was an approximation for relatively low flow rates in certain cases. In that case, all parties would be bickering, with one group claiming inadequacy of power dissipation, and with the other group claiming superlative excess heat levels. My hypothesis relates to positional effects of the mass and heat flows in the Earth's gravitation field. IMHO this hypothesis might even explain a reported pseudo-excess heat in the "control". A manuscript regarding this hypothesis was passed to a few friends and colleagues at MIT for critical review, one of whom (Prof. Keith Johnson) suggested that it be passed along to this group. The draft prepublication preprint (with the figure) is located at URL http://world.std.com/~mica/posvar.html Comments, criticisms and suggestions of this group would be appreciated, and will be noted in the paper. Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 15:44:19 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA00816 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:26:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA00768 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:26:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p3.aa.net (s3c0p3.aa.net [204.157.220.135]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA23652 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:25:41 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602142325.PAA23652@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:25:09 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Reply to Mandelive Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:50 PM 2/14/96 +0100, you wrote: >No. I do not know this document. >Sincerely. Elio Conte >--- >Prof Elio Conte >Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia >Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia > > Professor, Monti's last coordinates in Italy were: Dr. Roberto Monti Consiglio Nazionale Delle Ricerche Istituto T.E.S.R. Via Gobetti 101 40129 Bologna Italy About a year or so ago he started working full time in North America in the fusiona transmutation field on a hush hush project. I do not know how to reach him rapidly, but they do forward letters to him from the Istituto. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 16:03:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA05118 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:49:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA05044 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:49:22 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA16280 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 18:47:57 -0500 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 18:47:57 -0500 Message-ID: <960214184757_222309910@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: ozone Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In the closed loop configuration of the Yasmir ozone builds up. Puthoff's tests were open loop and did not allow for the build up of ozone. Ball lightning produces ozone. Is ozone the key? Someone tell Griggs to add ozone. Perhaps the addition will increase the efficiency. PS I'm on at home now. Did I hear the Yasmir was making electric powe? Does that mean its running on its own, disconnected from any source of electric power? How can that be if it has a gain of 1.25. Thermal conversion to electricity at low pressure and temperatures would be less than 10%. It would never make enough power to run itself let alone produce some extra.. Thermal eff ={temp in - temp discharge} / temp dischrage temps are absolute. Frank Z From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 16:10:33 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA04676 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:47:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA04627 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:46:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA14111; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 18:45:37 -0500 Date: 14 Feb 96 15:23:23 EST From: Dean Miller <75110.3417@compuserve.com> To: vortex list Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. Message-ID: <960214202322_75110.3417_CHK67-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Norman, You mentioned: >> There is evidence of deterioration of the metal coating with time and current density, but I don't think anyone has weighed the beads before and after a long run. The need for the electrolyte to be circulated is a possible indication of the consumption of some component during the heat generation, at least local to the beads. << You're right. What if there is some chemical reaction that's outside current theory but perfectly acceptable without invoking ZPE. That won't make the device or reaction O-U or achieve perpetual motion. And we certainly don't have any before and after data to be able to determine whether or not such a reaction _might_ be happening. But, you know what? I don't care. If what's happening is just a super-efficient battery (and I'm not saying it is) that could be made the size of a flashlight cell and produce at the rate of 1 Kw/hr for 1000 hours, I'd be happy. Just think of a battery like that powering our laptop computers. Of course, then we'd have a combination laptop computer and room heater. Dean -- from Des Moines From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 16:35:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA10777 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:20:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA10650 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:20:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.74] ([204.57.193.74]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA22995 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 17:48:33 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:23:47 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: vtx: Calorimeter Design Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I would appreciate suggestions for and criticism of the following: ISOLATION OF CALORIMITRY FLUIDS I have built the beginnings of my calorimiter to test 1 cc. of beads. I plan to completely isolate the lines for calorimitry (carrying distilled water) from the Li2SO4 solution by using a heat exchanger made of two coils of tubing inside a Thermos bottle. If necessary I will use a small 1.5 V motor to stir the water in the heat exchanger. I used 10 oz. (wide mouth model 7021) Thermos Food Jars (glass vacuum insulation) for temperature measuring stations. Fluid will be pumped through a coil of plastic tubing in the 10 oz food jars used as temperature measuring stations. I also cut holes in the lids for thermometers. For the final device I will remove the top plastic layer of the lid and spray urethane foam into the lid for better insulation. I will also imbed the plastic tubing interconnecting the various insulated stations in foam. The temperature measuring station Thermos is filled with distilled water to enable heat transfer from the coil to the thermometers. This does several things. It permits the use of numerous thermometers in a cell at one uniform temperature. It permits electrical and chemical isolation of the temperature measuring devices from the power cell. Also, it provides a large time constant to a running average temperature. This should provide smooth curves for verification purposes, and reduce the number of measurements necessary. For a system running at equilibrium it should also permit very accurate temperature measurements. The food jars were less than $5 a piece at Wal-Mart. I bought a larger model Thermos to hold the Patterson power cell. CONSTANT TEMPERATURE BATH OR HEAT SINK I am presently using a large jar with a 75 W aquarium heater for a constant temperature bath. This will be replaced with a large ice chest filled with ice and water. For longer running tests I may eventually use a barrel in a refrigerator for the heat sink bath. TUBING I expect to use size 16 tubing and a flow rate of .4 cc./s. PUMPS I have been using a reciprocal pump (removed from a WaterPick Gum Massager) for preliminary testing, but plan to order Cole Palmer peristaltic pumps to drive the distilled water to be used for calorimitry and the electorlyte solution. Unfortunately, a digital scope or data aquisition system may then be necessary to accurately measure electrical energy input. I probably can not find a Thermos bottle sufficiently large to hold a pump/motor, so expect to use a large and very thick foam container for each. COMPONENT INSULATION AND SEPARATION I plan to use a separate station (Thermos or other highly insulated enclosure) for each component of the system, including pumps, with a temperature measuring station between each. I may possibly use panels of styrofoam insulation as a kind of fluid equivalent of a printed circuit board. The idea is to cut small groves for the tubing in the top surface of the lower board and glue the Thermos tops to the bottom of the lower board. Then the top styrofoam board can simply be placed on top of the second board to achieve insulated flow lines. The whole assembly would be suspended book shelf supports. It may be a lot simpler to find some kind of insulating sleave for the tubing, or just spray the tubing with polyurethane foam (ugly). Here is a simplistic schematic of what I ultimately plan: I<---Loop1----- Distilled Water Flow --------------- I ^ I I V I --->B1--T1--P1--T2--P2--T3-------------HE-----T4-->I : : : : ----Loop2---------->P2--T5--PPC--T6----HE---T7-->I ^ I I I I V I<----------- Electrolyte Flow ------------------- Key: B1 - constant temperature bath (either 31 C or 0 C) Tn - temperature measuring station P1 - 110v peristaltic pump P2 - electrolyte pump (DC preferably) possibly with small fan (cooled by tubing coils with intgernal distilled water flow) HE - heat exchanger (two coils in water in Thermos) PPC - Patterson Power Cell The dotted lines (:) denote stations where both Loop1 and Loop2 tubing are in proximity (no mixing occurs, only thermal exchanges.) It is necessary to provide cooling to the pumps with Loop1 water, which is cool. Otherwise, the temperature in P1 and P2 would continually increase. This system hopefully provides many cross checks of heat flows, and can answer many of the objections raised regarding previous tests. The heat flow from T1 to T4 should equal the sum of all electrical inputs if there is no excess heat. The heat flow from T5 to T6 should be equivalent to the electrolysis current plus any energy from fluid pressure drop. T5 and T6 are similar to the measuring points of various prior experiments. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 16:42:04 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA12375 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:29:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU [128.250.50.83]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA12323 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msevior@localhost) by liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id LAA20471; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:28:57 +1100 From: Martin Edmund Sevior Message-Id: <199602150028.LAA20471@liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU> Subject: vtx: Kilograms of Osmium To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:28:56 +1100 (EST) Cc: msevior@liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (Martin Edmund Sevior) In-Reply-To: <199602132150.OAA17800@nz1.netzone.com> from "Joe Champion" at Feb 13, 96 02:50:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Joe Champion wrote: > > On February 12, 1996 we were successful in isolating 130 grams of OsO2 from > the nuclear synthesis of 2.2 kg of Pb during a 90 minute reaction. The > material is being shipped today for analysis. I will have the answer on > Feb. 15, and will report the results. This was our first major production > of Os. > Joe Champion e-mail: discpub@netzone.com > http://www.netzone.com/~discpub > > I was going to ignore all Joe Champion's posts in the hope he'd go away but Micheal Mandeville's exhortations to academics to display intellectual honesty compells me to respond. I believe in conservation of Energy. I believe in E = Mc**2 I believe the following table which lists the stable Isotopes of Osmium, Lead and Oxygen is correct to within 0.1 MeV Isotope Rest Energy Pb-204 189,971.0 MeV Pb-206 191,834.3 MeV Pb-207 192,767.0 MeV Pb-208 193,699.0 MeV Os-184 171,324.2 MeV Os-186 173,188.1 MeV Os-187 174,121.2 MeV Os-188 175,052.7 MeV Os-189 175,986.2 MeV Os-190 176,917.8 MeV Os-192 178,783.3 MeV O-16 14,896.9 MeV O-17 15,832.1 MeV O-18 16,763.5 MeV Then the following possibilities exist to produce stable isotopes of Osmium. Osmium Isotope Possible Transition Energy Released per transmutation Os-184 Can not do it Os-186 Pb-204 - O-18 19.9 MeV Os-187 Can not do it Os-188 Pb-206 - O-18 18.1 MeV Os-188 Pb-204 - O-16 21.4 MeV Os-189 Pb-207 - O-17 17.2 MeV Os-190 Pb-208 - O-18 17.7 MeV Os-190 Pb-206 - O-16 19.6 MeV Os-192 Pb-208 - O-16 18.8 MeV Let's say an energy release of about 19 MeV per transmutation. Now Champion has made at least 130 grams of OsO2 that is about 130/(206) * 6*10*23 = 4 * 10**23 Os nuclei so about 4 * 10**23 transmutations. So the energy released is: 4*10**23 * 19 MeV = 7*10**24 MeV = 1.1*10**12 Joules = 203 Megawatts for 90 minutes. I contend that no basement or garage or person could contain this energy release. I've spent a tedious hour doing this arithmetic and looking up numbers. I'll say no more on transmutations. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 18:45:55 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA03546 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 18:29:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from nz1.netzone.com (root@netzone.com [206.43.36.70]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA03489 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 18:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-ip-188.netzone.com (phx-ip-188.netzone.com [206.43.37.188]) by nz1.netzone.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA19657 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:19:59 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:19:59 -0700 Message-Id: <199602150219.TAA19657@nz1.netzone.com> X-Sender: discpub@netzone.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 1 (Highest) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Joe Champion Subject: Re: vtx: Martin Sevior Kilograms of Osmium Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:28 AM 2/15/96 +1100, you wrote: >Joe Champion wrote: > >> >> On February 12, 1996 we were successful in isolating 130 grams of OsO2 from >> the nuclear synthesis of 2.2 kg of Pb during a 90 minute reaction. The >> material is being shipped today for analysis. I will have the answer on >> Feb. 15, and will report the results. This was our first major production >> of Os. >> Joe Champion e-mail: discpub@netzone.com >> http://www.netzone.com/~discpub >> >> > >I was going to ignore all Joe Champion's posts in the hope he'd go away but >Micheal Mandeville's exhortations to academics to display intellectual honesty >compells me to respond. > >I believe in conservation of Energy. > >I believe in E = Mc**2 > >I believe the following table which lists the stable Isotopes of Osmium, >Lead and Oxygen is correct to within 0.1 MeV > >Isotope Rest Energy >Pb-204 189,971.0 MeV >Pb-206 191,834.3 MeV >Pb-207 192,767.0 MeV >Pb-208 193,699.0 MeV >Os-184 171,324.2 MeV >Os-186 173,188.1 MeV >Os-187 174,121.2 MeV >Os-188 175,052.7 MeV >Os-189 175,986.2 MeV >Os-190 176,917.8 MeV >Os-192 178,783.3 MeV >O-16 14,896.9 MeV >O-17 15,832.1 MeV >O-18 16,763.5 MeV > >Then the following possibilities exist to produce stable isotopes of >Osmium. > >Osmium Isotope Possible Transition Energy Released per transmutation > >Os-184 Can not do it >Os-186 Pb-204 - O-18 19.9 MeV >Os-187 Can not do it >Os-188 Pb-206 - O-18 18.1 MeV >Os-188 Pb-204 - O-16 21.4 MeV >Os-189 Pb-207 - O-17 17.2 MeV >Os-190 Pb-208 - O-18 17.7 MeV >Os-190 Pb-206 - O-16 19.6 MeV >Os-192 Pb-208 - O-16 18.8 MeV > >Let's say an energy release of about 19 MeV per transmutation. > >Now Champion has made at least 130 grams of OsO2 that is about > >130/(206) * 6*10*23 = 4 * 10**23 Os nuclei so about 4 * 10**23 transmutations. > > >So the energy released is: > >4*10**23 * 19 MeV = 7*10**24 MeV > = 1.1*10**12 Joules > = 203 Megawatts for 90 minutes. > >I contend that no basement or garage or person could contain this energy >release. > >I've spent a tedious hour doing this arithmetic and looking up numbers. >I'll say no more on transmutations. > >Martin Sevior > Martin, your math is impecable! And, if I were you, I wouldn't say anything else about transmutations either. At least until you gain an understanding of the events. For the record, we have already shipped OsO2 and have been offer a contract for 50 troy ounces per day. Unless I am lying, an audit of my checking account with sales receipts should prove either I have the greatest Osmium mine in the world, or I'm making it! You spent a hour grabbing numbers and applying simple mathematics based on reactions that you ass-u-me occur. Hey, I not fighting the "Law of Conservation," or E = mc2. Cutting to the chase, allow me to tell you where you err'd. You made an assumption, that the only reaction is Pb --> Os + O. On a fundimental level this is logical. You also made the assumption that the excess mass converted to energy. Again, this is fundimentally correct. But what you failed to consider was multiple reactions. Can you take Li and split it into He + T. The answer is -- no! Why, because there is no mass/balance. Now, what would occur if you had a reaction such as: Pb --> Os + O with the excess mass being transferred to a reaction such as: Li --> He + T Mass/balance ratios are OK, the "conservation of energy" is OK, there are no radioactive particles to consider, and NO HEAT! I'm not claiming that this is the occurence in my work. But if one would open their eyes, explanations of this cf craze can be explained. One might coin a phrase -- "You've been looking for fusion in all of the wrong places." For each primary low energy nuclear event there are 3 orders of magnitude of secondary and tertiary events that can occur. A subject that I have spent considerable hours and sums having computerized. OK, I will go away, but I'll return when I get back from the bank. (I hold no grudges, if you cut the sarcasms, I will be professional) Low energy nuclear events are real, cf (D + D), I don't think so. Joe Champion e-mail: discpub@netzone.com http://www.netzone.com/~discpub From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 18:45:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA04667 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 18:36:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA04609 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 18:36:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.74] ([204.57.193.82]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA23899 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 20:05:08 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 17:40:20 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >*** Reply to note of 02/14/96 00:23 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. >Dieter: I have to pull rank on you now. I have been to three Cold Fusion >conferences. I have pulled down the occasional Jack Daniels with Martin >and Stanley. The very thought that Toyota has put forth this money and [snip] That doesn't sound like Stanley Pons. Doesn't he drink red wine? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 19:40:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA14150 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:20:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA14062 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:20:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQacyv12661; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:19:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA43922; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:19:52 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 312619190096045FEPRI; 14 Feb 1996 19:19:19 PST Message-Id: Date: 14 Feb 1996 19:19:19 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Kilograms of Osmium To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/14/96 19:19:25 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/14/96 16:42 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Kilograms of Osmium Martin: Good post! I would agree with that, does make this claim look suspicious doesn't it! MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 19:45:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA16435 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:30:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nz1.netzone.com (root@netzone.com [206.43.36.70]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA16360 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:30:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-ip-188.netzone.com (phx-ip-253.netzone.com [206.43.37.253]) by nz1.netzone.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA23392 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 20:00:56 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 20:00:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199602150300.UAA23392@nz1.netzone.com> X-Sender: discpub@netzone.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Joe Champion Subject: vtx: Re: Elio Conte & Robero Monti Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Prof Conte Roberto now resides outside of Vancouver, CANADA. I have placed a call to him, and when I get his permission, I will give you his teleplone number and address. Roberto, has not joined the computer age. However, he does have telephone and FAX. Please be patient for 24 hours and I will post it. Joe Champion e-mail: discpub@netzone.com http://www.netzone.com/~discpub From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 20:06:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA22614 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA22535 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:54:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.82] ([204.57.193.82]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA24415 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 21:23:55 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 18:59:06 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: possible positional variation in calorimeters Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > Although David may be correct, there is another alternative. <-- > > Perhaps the thermometry was reasonable, but the calorimetric >equation applied was wrong, because it was an approximation for >relatively low flow rates in certain cases. > [snip] > >The draft prepublication preprint (with the figure) is located at URL > http://world.std.com/~mica/posvar.html > > Comments, criticisms and suggestions of this group >would be appreciated, and will be noted in the paper. > > Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) This is a very interresting work. I have several comments: 1. To me, it seems your conclusion should to point in the direction of placing the thermometers all at the same vertical level. It then is unimportant if there are veritcal flows in the calorimiter, or convection. It is not necessary for the entire calorimiter and device to be horizontal. 2. The need to place thermometers at the same level implies the importance of insulating the various components of the calorimiter from each other and from ambient conditions. 3. Your theory, as an explanation of the 3 CETI experiments, seems inconsistant with the fact that the flow rate increased across the 3 CETI experiments, while the excess heat increased. The theory implies the apparent excess heat should reduce with increased flow. 4. A simple test of the theory as an explanation would be to build a replica of the CETI cell with a resistive heat element imbedded in glass beads and appropriate current and flow rate to match the CETI results. Measure the results, and then turn the cell upside down and quantify the output temperature reduction. This process would eliminate the effect of the evolved electrolysis gas bubbles on specific heat, another possibly significant effect. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 20:41:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA02073 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 20:28:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA01920 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 20:27:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c2p7.aa.net (s3c2p7.aa.net [204.157.220.155]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA09427 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 20:27:05 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602150427.UAA09427@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 20:26:35 +0800 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: vtx: Protesting and Challenging the Telecommunications Act Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Just thought I would pass this little item along... Should be of interest to anyone using the internet. If you think this really inappropriate here, I will refrain from such posts in the future. >X-POP3-Rcpt: mwm@big >Return-Path: owner-nwu-chat@netcom.com >X-Intended-For: >Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:36:00 -0800 >To: nwu-chat@netcom.com >From: felixk@panix.com (Felix Kramer) >Subject: Re: Protesting and Challenging the CDA (long) >Cc: nwu-chat@netcom.com >Sender: owner-nwu-chat@netcom.com >Reply-To: nwu-chat@netcom.com > >Dave Lindorff wrote suggesting we all challenge the Act. > >It is my understanding that the White House has instructed theJustice >Department to take no steps to prosecute anyone pending judicial rullings >on legal challenges to the law (the judge in the ACLU case et al may be >heard from today). > >Meanwhile, in a long-planned direction action, here's the intentionally >challenging article the American Reporter posted on the day Clinton signed >the bill (along with a legal brief asking for the post to be a test case): > > http://www.newshare.com/Reporter/reporter.html > > > * * * > >+ >by Steve Russell >American Reporter Correspondent >San Antonio, Texas >2/8/96 >censorship >free > > THE X-ON CONGRESS: INDECENT COMMENT ON AN INDECENT SUBJECT > by Steve Russell > American Reporter Correspondent > > SAN ANTONIO, Texas -- You motherfuckers in Congress have dropped >over the edge of the earth this time. I understand that very few of the >swarm of high dollar lobbyists around the Telecommunications Bill had any >interest in content regulation -- they were just trying to get their >clients an opportunity to dip their buckets in the money stream that >cyberspace may become -- but the public interest sometimes needs a little >attention. Keeping your eyes on what big money wants, you have sold out >the First Amendment. > First, some basics. If your children walked by a public park and >heard some angry sumbitches referring to Congress as "the sorriest bunch >of cocksuckers ever to sell out the First Amendment" or suggesting that >"the only reason to run for Congress these days is to suck the lobbyists' >dicks and fuck the people who sent you there," no law would be violated >(assuming no violation of noise ordinances or incitement to breach the >peace). If your children did not wish to hear that language, they could >only walk away. Thanks to your heads-up-your-ass dereliction of duty, if >they read the same words in cyberspace, they could call the FBI! > Cyberspace is the village green for the whole world. It is the >same as the village green our Founders knew as the place to rouse the >rabble who became Americans, but it is also different. Your blind >acceptance of the dubious -- make that dogass dumb -- idea that children >are harmed by hearing so-called dirty words has created some pretty stupid >regulations without shutting down public debate, but those stupid >regulations will not import to cyberspace without consequences that even >the public relations whores in Congress should find unacceptable. > In cyberspace, there is no time. A posted message stays posted >until it is wiped. Therefore, there is no way to indulge the fiction that >children do not stay up late or cannot program a VCR. > In cyberspace, there is no place. The "community standards" are >those of the whole world. An upload from Amsterdam can become a download >in Idaho. By trying to regulate obscenity and indecency on the Internet, >you have reduced the level of expression allowed consenting adults to that >of the most anal retentive blueballed fuckhead U.S. attorney in the >country. The Internet is everywhere you can plug in a modem. Call >Senator Exon an "ignorant motherfucker" in Lincoln, Nebraska and find >yourself prosecuted in Bibleburg, Mississippi. > In cyberspace, you cannot require the convenience store to sell >Hustler in a white sleeve. The functional equivalent is gatekeeper >software, to which no civil libertarian has voiced any objection. >Gatekeeper software cannot be made foolproof, but can you pandering >pissants not see that any kid smart enough to hack into a Website is also >smart enough to get his hands on a hard copy of Hustler if he really wants >one? > In cyberspace, there is the illusion of anonymity but no real >privacy. It is theoretically possible for any Internet server to seine >through all messages for key words (although it seems likely the resulting >slowdown would be noticeable). Perhaps some of you read about America On >Line's attempt to keep children from reading the word "breast?" An >apparently unforeseen consequence was the shutdown of a discussion group >of breast cancer survivors. Don't you think more kids are aware of "teat" >(pronounced "tit") than of "breast?" Can skirts on piano legs, er, limbs >be far behind? > But silly shit like this is just a pimple on the ass of the >long-term consequences for politics, art and education. You have passed a >law that will get less respect than the 55 m.p.h. speed limit dead bang in >the middle of the First Amendment. Indecency is nothing but a matter of >fashion; obscenity is the same but on a longer timeline. This generation >freely reads James Joyce and Henry Miller and the Republic still stands. >The home of the late alleged pornographer D. H. Lawrence is now a >beautiful writers' retreat in the mountains above Taos, managed by the >University of New Mexico. > Universities all have Internet servers, and every English >Department has at least one scholar who can read Chaucer's English -- but >not on the Internet anymore. Comparative literature classes might read >Boccaccio -- but not on the Internet anymore. What if some U. S. Attorney >hears about Othello and Desdemona "making the beast with two backs" -- is >interracial sex no longer indecent anywhere in the country, or is >Shakespeare off the Internet? > Did you know you can download video and sound from the Internet? >Yes, that means you can watch other people having sex if that is >interesting to you, live or on tape. Technology can make such things hard >to retrieve, but probably not impossible. And since you have swept right >past obscenity and into indecency, the baby boomers had better keep their >old rock 'n roll tapes off the Internet. > When the Jefferson Airplane sang "her heels rise for me," they >were not referring to a dance step. And if some Brit explains the line >about "finger pie" in Penny Lane, the Beatles will be gone. All of those >school boards that used to ban "The Catcher in the Rye" over cussing and >spreading the foul lie that kids masturbate can now go to federal court >and get that nasty book kept out of cyberspace. > But enough about the past. What about rap music? No, I do not >care much for it either -- any more than I care for the language you >shitheads have forced me to use in this essay -- but can you not see the >immediate differential impact of this law by class and race? What is your >defense -- that there are no African-Americans on the Internet, since they >are too busy pimping and dealing crack? If our educational establishment >has any sense at all, they will be trying to see more teens of all colors >on the Internet, because there is a lot to be learned in cyberspace that >has nothing to do with sex. > There are plenty of young people in this country who have >legitimate political complaints. When you dickheads get done with Social >Security, they will be lucky if the retirement age is still in double >digits. But thanks to the wonderful job the public schools have done >keeping sex and violence out, we have a lot of intelligent kids who cannot >express themselves without indecent language. I have watched lawyers in >open court digging their young clients in the ribs every time the word >"fuck" slipped out. > Let's talk about this fucking indecent language bullshit. Joe >Shea, my editor, does not want it in his newspaper, and I respect that >position. He might even be almost as upset about publishing this as I a >about writing it. I do use salty language in my writing, but sparingly, >only as a big hammer. Use the fucking shit too fucking much and it loses >its fucking impact -- see what I mean? Fiction follows different rules, >and if you confine your fiction writing to how the swell people want to >see themselves using language, you not only preclude literary depiction of >most people but you are probably false to the people you purport to >depict. > Do you remember how real language used by real people got on the >air and in the newspapers? Richard Nixon, while he was president, >speaking in the White House about official matters. A law professor and a >nominee for Supreme Court Justice arguing about pubic hairs and porno >movies during Senate hearings. Are these matters now too indecent for the >Internet? How much cleansing will be required of the online news >services? Answer: Enough cleansing to meet the standard of what is >appropriate for a child in the most restrictive federal judicial district. > This is bullshit -- unconstitutional bullshit and also bad policy >bullshit. To violate your ban on indecency, I have been forced to use >and overuse so-called indecent language. But if I called you a bunch of >goddam motherfucking cocksucking cunt-eating blue-balled bastards with the >morals of muggers and the intelligence of pond scum, that would be >nothing compared to this indictment, to wit: you have sold the First >Amendment, your birthright and that of your children. The Founders turn >in their graves. You have spit on the grave of every warrior who fought >under the Stars and Stripes. > And what mess of pottage have you acquired in exchange for the >rights of a free people? Have you cleansed the Internet of even the >rawest pornography? No, because it is a worldwide system. You have, >however, handed the government a powerful new tool to harass its >critics: a prosecution for indecent commentary in any district in the >country. > Have you protected one child from reading dirty words? Probably >not, if you understand what the economists call "substitution" -- but you >have leveled the standards of political debate to a point where a history >buff would not dare to upload some of the Federalist v. Anti-Federalist >election rhetoric to a Website. > Since the lobby reporting requirements were not law when the >censorship discussion was happening, I hope you got some substantial >reward for what you gave up. Thirty pieces of silver doesn't go far >these days. > > -30- > > (Steve Russell, retired after 16 years as a trial judge in Texas, > is Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice at the University of > Texas at San Antonio.) > > This article may be reproduced free forever. > > * * * > >-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- >Felix Kramer/Kramer Communications felixk@panix.com >web: http://www.nlightning.com (now with 1,000 bookmarks) > Online promotion & marketing / web-site development > Clickshare: http://www.clickshare.com/clickshare/ >voice: 212/866-4864 fax: 212/866-5527 >-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > > > ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 21:45:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA18505 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 21:31:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA18427 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 21:31:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c3p0.aa.net (s1c3p0.aa.net [204.157.220.188]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA13687 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 21:30:48 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602150530.VAA13687@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 21:30:18 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: NOTE 02/14/96 01:16:00 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:41 AM 2/14/96 PST, you wrote: >*** Reply to note of 02/14/96 01:16 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: NOTE 02/14/96 01:16:00 >Joe: Could you do some of this work at Los Alamos, UNDER GUARD? OK, I understan >d, there might be "proprietary" in here somewhere. However, what I'm thinking >about is an ultimate "quality assurence" I.e., a way to show people this >is no stage magic trick. I might trust you, but remember what you are saying >and doing---i.e., consider the RAW EMOTION thrown against CF. Multiply by >a factor of 10 to 100, and that's what you are going to have thrown against >you! MDH > > He knows. We all know. All the niggers behind the woodpile shucking and jiving their crazy shit, they all know. A couple of years ago I actually had the President of a major university hold his nose as he abruptly turned away from me in disgust that he could be accosted by one... to hide in the crowd after a thirty second conversation about the possibility that transmutation could be demonstrated in an historical experiment. I was so astonished, all I could do was laugh hysterically with the final and full realization that it really was really true...the closed mind of the guild clique...and I finally understood that in pushing this stuff, status, credentials, AND PROOF, was not the problem. The problem is in the mind. The big problem is too many of those problem minds in too many positions of authority. Aside to Chris Tinsley: Zen master believes in reminding people to wake up from their stupor with a stick, Chris Tinsley. The word is a great stick and you are really good at it, and, ahem, uncannily uneliptical in your eloquent elipsoid-appearing masquerades...tune into the this level of the issues and use the power! ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 14 23:37:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA25431 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 23:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA25359 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 23:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a2-28.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a2-28.mel.netspace.net.au [203.17.100.28]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA25153 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:20:00 +1100 (EST) From: rvanspaa@netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Potapov Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 08:23:51 GMT Organization: Improving Message-Id: <31217dbc.24957205@mail.netspace.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/16.182 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Peter, >From the table you supplied in your report, it was not clear whether the new Potapov devices _consumed_ the electrical power you specified, or whether they are stand alone devices that produce this much electrical power in addition to the thermal power produced. Could you please clarify this point? Regards, Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 01:18:32 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id BAA27902 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 01:01:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA27823 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 01:00:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA08305; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:00:54 +0100 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:00:54 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 14 Feb 1996, MHUGO@EPRI wrote: > *** Reply to note of 02/14/96 00:23 > From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. > Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. > Dieter: I have to pull rank on you now. I have been to three Cold Fusion > conferences. I have pulled down the occasional Jack Daniels with Martin > and Stanley. The very thought that Toyota has put forth this money and > effort because "if it is wrong, they still end up with a couple of > fine electro-chemists to work on "battery" research" is nonsense. Let's > make one thing perfectly clear, Cold Fusion is real, and it occurs. To do > it in a Pd/D2 system requires an extrodinarily carefully balanced electro- > chemical system. Please access the info from the Electric Power Research > Inst. on their work. Stanley and Martin will do NOTHING else but work on > CF the rest of their lives. MDH OK, I'm outranked, I have not been to any 'cold fusion' conferences, and don't intend to go to any future ones either. But I do read all the papers in journals and have about 1020 of these now. So I am indeed familiar with everything F&P have written in proper journals. That's where real scientists put their most cherished results, you know, and they are real scientists. You will have to say "Cold fusion is real" three times to make it true, I'm afraid... Let me point out, however, that I was not suggesting the above scenario myself (Toyota wants Fleischmann on tap); I was only saying that this suggestion is not outrageous and that the person who is broadly hinted to have said it, need not be crazy. I am working on whether he did actually say it. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 01:52:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id BAA10199 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 01:32:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA10136 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 01:32:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA10657; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:32:24 +0100 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:32:23 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 14 Feb 1996, Horace Heffner wrote: > >*** Reply to note of 02/14/96 00:23 > >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. > >Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. > >Dieter: I have to pull rank on you now. I have been to three Cold Fusion > >conferences. I have pulled down the occasional Jack Daniels with Martin > >and Stanley. The very thought that Toyota has put forth this money and > [snip] > > That doesn't sound like Stanley Pons. Doesn't he drink red wine? Given that he was originally Ukrainian, under the name of Semen (according to some, that is), it would have to be vodka, nye pravil'no? -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 02:05:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA23037 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:44:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA22832 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:43:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-200.austin.eden.com (net-1-200.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.200]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id QAA04867 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:29:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:29:59 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602142229.QAA04867@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: "sane" folks X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Tony Rusi said: >Two independant teams at major universities are doing work independantly >of CETI, so anyone should be able to repeat the work. Where are you >loacated? Austin, TX. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 02:09:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA16740 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:54:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU [128.250.50.83]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA16658 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:54:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msevior@localhost) by liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id LAA21676 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:54:18 +1100 From: Martin Edmund Sevior Message-Id: <199602150054.LAA21676@liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU> Subject: Re: vtx: Calorimeter Design To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:54:18 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Horace Heffner" at Feb 14, 96 03:23:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Horace, I suggest you put a filter in the flowing electrolyte. It seems a standard feature of PPC's Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 02:09:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA06380 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:57:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA06265 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:56:43 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA23933 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 18:54:56 -0500 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 18:54:56 -0500 Message-ID: <960214185452_222316377@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wrong wrong wrong....The epri reports say that the energy is beyond chemical. Jed will tell you a good chemical fuel produces 10 mega joules per KG. The longest running CETI cells produced many times this amount of power. Miley knows this. He is not stupid. I met him and I will say again he is a very very long way from stupid. These things have been looked at. The CETI cell is producing excess power. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 02:22:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAB23060 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:45:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA22815 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:43:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-200.austin.eden.com (net-1-200.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.200]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id QAA06135 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:42:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:42:59 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602142242.QAA06135@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Potapov II X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Danny and/or Terry wrote: >For those of us who aren't familiar with the Potapov device.... > >Do the power numbers represent the total power supplied to the experiment or >just the Potapov device? Total power. The Potapov device is just a fancy restriction in a water pipe. To make it work, you pump water thru it, and it generates heat. The input power figures are for the electric motor driving that was driving the water pump. >If the numbers represent all of the power being supplied, don't you have to >take into account energy used to move the water... All of the input energy goes into heating the water except what is converted into heat in the electric motor and conveyed off via air-cooling. For some of the Potapov configurations, the pump and motor are immersed...in that case 100% of the input electrical energy is converted into heat energy in the water. >Does anyone have >(or can you guess at) comparable numbers for conventional heating devices, All electric heating devices convert %100 of the input electrical energy into heat. Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 02:26:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA03135 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 12:24:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA02843 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 12:21:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 12:21:33 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer@gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199602142021.MAA02843@mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 12:17:36 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Potapov II Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Responses to responses to my post about the two Japanese experiments on a Potapov device cited by Peter Gluck: Scott Little wrote: >>300 liters of water are heated from 23.5 to 55.2 deg Celsius in >>100 minutes. The motor takes 11.5 Amps. (380 Volts). > >This is an apparent C.O.P. of 1.519 > >>2-nd experiment. >>150 liters of water are heated from 31.0 to 87.6 deg Celsius in >>170 minutes. The motor takes 7.5 Amps. (380 Volts). > >This is an apparent C.O.P. of 1.203 Scott's COPs greater than unity result from assuming that the electric power supplied to the pump motor is single phase and is just the stated voltage times the current. I assumed 3-phase power, because 380 V is a common 3-phase power standard in much of the world. IF it is 3-phase, and IF the voltage is line-to-line and the current is single line (which would be a conventional way to state 3-phase voltage and current) then the power is sqrt(3) times the stated voltage times the stated current, and both COPs are less than unity. Actually, the real electric power to the motor is somewhat less than my calculation, because real motors have inductance, so the actual COP is probably near unity. More detailed data are needed before making any stronger statements. Will Fajber wrote: >I would note that the density of water changes quite a bit as it warms, >and the following [Schaffer's] numbers should not be used as precise. True, but the correction is only a few percent. A small refinement will not change the conclusion, that the experiments did not show OU (if the electric power was 3-phase). Danny & Terry write: For those of us who aren't familiar with the Potapov device.... Do the power numbers represent the total power supplied to the experiment or just the Potapov device? If the numbers represent all of the power being supplied, don't you have to take into account energy used to move the water and some of the other factors you've been discussing with the Patterson cell? Does anyone have (or can you guess at) comparable numbers for conventional heating devices, i.e. power in to heat out? Peter Gluck did not describe the experimental configuration. However, if it is anything like other Potapov device installations, the electrical power is supplied to the pump motor. The pump drives water through the Potapov device. The power supplied to the Potapov device is the fluid power (pressure drop across the device) times volume flow rate), which is less than the electrical input by the motor and pump inefficiencies. However, almost 100% of the pump inefficiency appears as heat in the water circulated to the Potapov device, and if the calorimetry simply measures the temperature rise of the mass of water in the (closed loop) system, the water temperature rise is generated by the combined contributions of pump inefficiency, dissipation of the water flow and any excess heat produced; the individual contributions cannot be separated. If the pump and its motor (submergible pump) are immersed in the water tank, as Peter mentioned is the case with the more modern devices, then even the heat from the motor inefficiency is captured in the water, too. Classically, one would expect nearly 100% of the real electrical power input to be captured from a submerged system as thermal power in the water (COP = 1). It was not stated whether the Japanese experiment used a submerged pump or not. In conventional domestic heating devices the power used to circulate the hot water or air is a small fraction of the thermal power delivered. The power to circulate electrolyte through a Patterson cell is very much less than the electrolysis power, because the flow is so small and the pressure is low. Michael J. Schaffer michael.schaffer@gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 02:29:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA08351 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:07:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from bavaria.utcluj.ro (root@[193.226.5.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA08113 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:06:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from itimc@localhost) by bavaria.utcluj.ro (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA15054; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:24:19 +0200 Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:24:19 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Subject: vtx: Japanese Yusmar Exp. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Re: Japanese Yusmar Experiment, complete. Wakabayashi-san has translated the data. They are as follows : ..................................................... Yusmar-Results of the Experiment. Place: FIELD Co. Datum: 1995, 10-04; Weather- cloudy; Outer temp: 28 C Quantity of water: 300 liters; Voltage: 380 V; Current: 11.5 Amp. Frequency: 60 Hz TIME TEMPERATURE deg. C INCREASE OF TEMP., deg C start 23.5 - 12:00 25.7 2.2 12:05 27.4 1.7 12:10 29.2 1.8 12:15 30.9 1.6 12:20 32.6 1.7 12:25 34.2 1.6 12:30 36.0 1.8 12:35 37.6 1.6 12:40 39.1 1.5 12:45 40.7 1.6 12:50 42.2 1.5 12:55 43.8 1.6 13:00 45.2 1.4 13:05 46.8 1.6 13:10 48.2 1.4 13:15 49.7 1.5 13:20 51.1 1.4 13:25 52.5 1.3 13;30 54.0 1.5 13:35 55.2 1.2 ............................................. ............................................. Yusmar- Results of experimentation. Place: FIELD Co.; Wheather- cloudy; Outer temp. 24 C Quantity of water: 150 liters; Voltage: 380 V; Current: 7.5 Amp. Power; 2.85 kW TIME (minutes) TEMPERATURE (deg. C) INCREASE OF TEMP. (deg. C) Start 13:55 00 30.0 - 05 31.0 1.0 10 33.0 2.0 15 34.5 1.5 20 37.0 2.5 25 39.0 2.0 30 41.0 2.0 35 42.0 1.0 40 45.0 3.0 45 46.5 1.5 50 49.0 2.5 55 50.5 1.5 60 52.0 1.5 65 54.0 2.5 70 56.5 2.5 75 58.0 1.5 80 60.5 2.5 85 62.3 1.8 90 64.3 2.0 95 66.0 1.7 100 67.3 1.3 105 68.1 0.8 110 69.6 1.5 115 71.1 0.5 120 72.5 1.4 125 74.2 1.7 130 75.9 1.7 135 77.6 1.7 140 79.5 1.9 145 80.2 0.7 150 81.9 1.7 155 83.3 1.4 160 84.7 1.4 165 86.3 1.6 170 87.6 1.3 ........................................................ The experimental set-up: A stainless steel vessel is used having: total height 1580 mm outer diameter 675 mm Flanged cover, welded bottom, both convex. The immersible pump (dia 140 mm ) and the Yusmar (dia 50 mm) are suported by two massive rubber cushions placed in bottom part and the cover of the vessel. These cushions have dia. of 390 mm. The distance between the two cushions is 1410 mmm. The pump sucks water from the vessel, pushes it through the Yusmar to a flanged outlet placed near the bottom and returns it in the vessel via a bypass.The entrance is at a level lower than half of the vessel. A thermometer and a flowmeter are placed in this bypass. An other drawing shows that the vessel is positioned horizontally probably with the aim to have the Yusmar submersed (it has to suck water through an orifice placed in its head) at both levels of water for 300 and 150 liters. The vessel is not thermally isolated and this explains the decrease of COP with time: For the 1-st experiment: 1.63 after an hour 1.48 final. For the 2-nd experiment : 1.34 after one hour 1.30 after two hours 1.24 final Peter Gluck From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 02:36:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA14767 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:43:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA14624 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 16:42:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA21359; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:40:50 -0500 Date: 14 Feb 96 19:39:20 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Radon, power lines, cancer Message-ID: <960215003919_100433.1541_BHG20-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:vortex Subj;Radon, power lines, cancer Well, I watched the UK Channel 4 Despatches documentary (45 minutes) on power lines, radon and cancer. This subject has been hot news on TV for the last 24 hours, on all channels here. After watching the documentary, I am strongly reminded of a similar programnme I reported on the Compuserve Science forum nearly two years ago. That one was a BBC Horizon documentary on the stomach ulcer-causing bacterium, Helicobacter Pylori. At that stage, the clinical trials which had so conclusively demonstrated that H P is the overwhelming cause of stomach ulcer were already twelve years old. And when I reported that astonishing programme on Science I was roundly trashed by all and sundry. In the light of the instant knee-jerk reaction there from more than one person to my simple enquiry yesterday about "how could power lines attract radon" - a lot of patronising stuff about how silly these people were to be frightened of power lines - I have little option but to point out that the HP story is now being accepted everywhere - the NYT ran a story the other week, and I did notice on my last trip to the US that there are TV adverts asking ulcer sufferers to go and get cured with antibiotics. That of course proves nothing. This particular documentary may be wrong. As I said in the case of H P, this is not my field - I am reporting what I heard. I will say that it had the ring of truth, but if you don't like it take that up with Prof Denis Henshaw of the University of Bristol, UK. Note that the rank of prof here is equivalent to the much more senior profs in the US. Henshaw, by the way, is a physicist, not a primarily a medical man. First, the programme covered the epidemiology. Contrary to the US experience, the results in Europe (specifically Sweden and the UK) were clear. Approximately twice as many childhood cancers (1:10000 instead of 1:20000) among kids living in close proximity to power lines. Several studies were shown, and in each case the epidemiology appeared clear enough. For example, in the Swedish studies, numbers involved were (in sum) approaching half a million children. The British Government's National Radiological Protection Board kept stressing the lack of a clear *causal* relationship. Clearly they were *not* disputing the associational links. Henshaw used a simple, graphic, and impressive technique. He got many hundreds of samples of a plastic which shows alpha-particle tracks clearly, and had them exposed in places where power lines run - and where they do not. The results as shown were very dramatic, giving a very large increase in alpha radiation near electromagnetic fields. Perhaps the most remarkable demonstration was to place the plastic sheets near power lines (240V) inside houses. There were neat, visible bands of tracks along the wires. I must admit that I did wonder if the plastic insulation or copper might have been a source of alphas, but this was not made clear. I doubt, judging by the reactions of the various scientists who were interviewed on camera, whether Prof Henshaw had missed anything so obvious. These other experts were evidently excited by the paper in Int J Radiol Biol, and said that this work represented a major breakthrough. So, there you have it. Whilst myself no expert, I was impressed by the evident excitement this was engendering among quite a number of sober-looking scientists in several fields of research. The last defence of the the NRPB was to say that although they accepted these findings as valid in terms of a variation in local distribution of particles, and accepted that the levels are much higher near power lines, the idea that people would actually inhale them was not proven. Henshaw got fairly scathing about that notion, and I could see his argument. If the overall particle *concentration* is agreed to be much higher near power lines, then this is obviously more significant than any tendency for particles to migrate over small distances to low-voltage lines inside the home. It was pointed out that near the power lines, ground-level fields freqently exceed 1.1kV/m. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 03:33:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA28155 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 02:17:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA28120 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 02:17:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id FAA01577; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 05:16:35 -0500 Date: 15 Feb 96 05:13:51 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Pig in the middle Message-ID: <960215101351_100433.1541_BHG59-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex I see that I am castigated from both sides. But I'll go on ploughing my own furrow, thanks just the same everybody. If I think Meyer or Potapov are "unsatisfactory in their business affairs" I'll say so. If I think CETI are out of their tree I'll say that too. If I see what looks like an anomaly, I'll do my best to report what I see. Dieter says: "So [Toyota] might very well have said to each other, let's throw a bit of money at this just in case; if it doesn't work out, we have Fleischmann on tap." Sorry, Dieter, this is absurd. It isn't a 'bit of money' it's a huge purpose-built lab with plenty of staff and equipment. And Toyota sponsored ICCF5. Argue it as a tax loss, argue it any way you like. But no company throws all those millions away over a period of several years just to "have Fleischmann on tap". Neither does Fiat sponsor a conference on CF for the fun of it. Neither does MITI chip in $100m into the pot of Japanese CF research. "Be careful not to spread rumours, good people, and denigrate people just for not adhering to the same beliefs as you do." I am accused of rumour-mongering because I factually report a conversation with a radio reporter. So delicate are my sensibilities that I refrained from identifying the person quoted. However, I do have in my possession a *letter* from a certain Prof Frank Close in which he stated as his opinion that the the research at Nice was aimed at producing improved batteries. That is no more of a rumour than my earlier comment. It is my *opinion* that Dr Close was sufficiently well-informed as to the activities at Sofia-Antipolis (based on the published work, based on the documentation accompanying Toyota's involvement in the CF field), that he was at the time "well aware of the improbability of his conjecture." No, I do not think he is crazy. Nor do I think he was putting forward his views with his usual robustness in either the Equinox broadcast nor in the Radio 4 today broadcast of 2 January this year. And I have identified numerous examples of illogical nonsense in "Too Hot To Handle". I don't care if he is Lord God Almighty, if I think he talks bollocks I'll say so. My more forceful "denigrations" - if the above really justifies such a description - are more commonly reserved for "my own side". Michael says: "Huizinca, whatever sp, was just faking it on TV. He twitched visably everytime he realized he was faking it. He twitched a lot. Politicians, lawyers, educators, far too many walk around faking it a great deal of the time with knee jerk reactions which don't relate to anything which is real but are designed to maximize their own presence at the expense of someone else. That's the issue." I didn't see the broadcast, but everybody who has tells it much as you do; apparently Huizenga was a bit on the ropes. Frankly, I don't much care. I don't see the media jackals giving much more slack to Huizenga and co in times to come than they did to F & P. That's their affair, I refuse to enjoy the prospect, and I note that Jed and Gene both had the grace to say to me that they felt rather sorry for Huizenga, being placed in that kind of spot on national television. "I keep mentioning this stuff on vortex because of you who here who are in the communication game. I hope you take full advantage of the coming opportunities to point out all sorts of little lessons about the "evil perils" of the "conventional realities" which self-styled cults of experts walk around while "faking it" for their cult followers." I personally would like to see more serious study being given to anomalies which don't fit the current understanding. Indeed, I came into this field following what appears inexplicable except as 'bio-transmutation'. And I'm pretty damned touchy about that incident, because it took my wife more than four years of suffering to die of what the neuroscience department of the nearby teaching hospital said was flatly impossible - they'd had to pump what they called "industrial quantities" (1500gm) of KCl into her over a period of 36 hours (with no elimination of K+) to try to raise her serum K+ to anywhere near normal. Anybody who thinks that is possible better go learn some basic biochemistry. It left her massively brain-damaged, though. And it wasn't ME who suggested it had to be biotransmutation, it was a *consultant neurophysician* - who also said that familial hypokalaemia (which this was not) has no satisfactory 'conventional' explanation. Maybe he was right, maybe he was wrong. But he was very much a pragmatist. And I've commented before that mass-energy equivalence means that such an event is impossible without huge energy emission. In this particluar instance, that for me just makes two "impossibles" instead of one. Neither changes the facts. Too much possibly valid work is dying unseen because it doesn't fit. OK, OK, there's something in what you say. But, hey, isn't it enough that we go on doing what we've been doing? We've tried to promote CF, and it has cost us - and taught us many hard lessons. I for one do not see it as my job to go around afterwards stating the obvious to people who are probably much better equipped intellectually than I am, and who know a lot more about how to undertake scientific studies than I do. If my own small efforts help do something just to 'break the log-jam' in science, then I would consider my life not to have been wasted. You really want more? I should set myself up as an authority?! Moi? I'm just a very ordinary person who has tried hard to learn how to think straight, and follow his conscience. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 04:46:44 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA00358 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 03:35:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA00299 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 03:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.77] ([204.57.193.77]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA26467 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 05:04:58 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 02:40:01 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: NOTE 02/14/96 01:16:00 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [SNIP] ... to hide in the crowd after a thirty second conversation >about the possibility that transmutation could be demonstrated in an >historical experiment. I was so astonished, all I could do was laugh >hysterically with the final and full realization that it really was really >true...the closed mind of the guild clique...and I finally understood that >in pushing this stuff, status, credentials, AND PROOF, was not the problem. >The problem is in the mind. The big problem is too many of those problem >minds in too many positions of authority. Aside to Chris Tinsley: Zen >master believes in reminding people to wake up from their stupor with a >stick, Chris Tinsley. The word is a great stick and you are really good at >it, and, ahem, uncannily uneliptical in your eloquent elipsoid-appearing >masquerades...tune into the this level of the issues and use the power! >____________________________________ >MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing >Michael Mandeville, publisher Though more time consuming, the scientific method, reproducible experiment, I think, is the most effective way to deal with closed minds. Unfortunately, it usually takes a generation for the scientific method to work for completely new paradigms. The truly closed mind never opens, it just gets replaced. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 04:54:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA23815 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 04:36:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA23761 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 04:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.77] ([204.57.193.77]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA26691 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 06:06:00 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 03:41:01 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Potapov II Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [snip] > >>Does anyone have >>(or can you guess at) comparable numbers for conventional heating devices, > >All electric heating devices convert %100 of the input electrical energy >into heat. > >Scott Little >EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA >512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) > This is only true if you measure the voltage differential across the device, not the supply voltage, true? This is especially true for low impedence divices, because much of the voltage drop, and thus heat generation, occurs outside the device, i.e. in the building wiring. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 05:37:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA11056 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 05:22:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA11007 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 05:22:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA07292; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 08:22:40 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15602; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 08:19:58 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 08:19:58 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602151319.AA15602@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: possible positional errors in calorimeters Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In Message-Id: Subject: Re: vtx: possible positional variation in calorimeters hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) wrote: "This is a very interresting work. I have several comments: 1. To me, it seems your conclusion should to point in the direction of placing the thermometers all at the same vertical level. It then is unimportant if there are veritcal flows in the calorimiter, or convection. It is not necessary for the entire calorimiter and device to be horizontal." Thank you for the comments, Horace. Not sure that is correct because the model is a quasi-one dimensional model, and there is no variation within the area, although to the degree that there is, your comments are correct at each vertical level. It does appear that it may be necessary for certain flow calorimeters to be horizontally positioned, with respect to the flow, for low to moderate flow conditions if semiquantitative results are to derived. ------------------------------ "2. The need to place thermometers at the same level implies the importance of insulating the various components of the calorimiter from each other and from ambient conditions." Depends upon power levels, and the engineering delta-T levels wanted. Having melting a few calorimeters by less than optimal planning, it is clear that the thermal insulation should be carefully considered. ------------------------------ "3. Your theory, as an explanation of the 3 CETI experiments, seems inconsistant with the fact that the flow rate increased across the 3 CETI experiments, while the excess heat increased. The theory implies the apparent excess heat should reduce with increased flow." The hypothesis is not meant to be an explanation for the CETI experiments. It examined convection, conduction, and gravity-thermal instabilities. The theoretical Q1D model of heat and mass transfer indicates that increased flow makes the positional error less important. That may be relevant to the cell you mention. Alternatively, this is an important effect at low flow levels, and any apparent amplification of the 'excess heat' (if any, and there does appear to be some) would be greatest at the low flow levels. ------------------------------ " 4.A simple test of the theory as an explanation would be to build a replica of the CETI cell with a resistive heat element imbedded in glass beads and appropriate current and flow rate to match the CETI results. Measure the results, and then turn the cell upside down and quantify the output temperature reduction. This process would eliminate the effect of the evolved electrolysis gas bubbles on specific heat, another possibly significant effect." Agree with the simple resistive element as one test. It is not necessarily sufficient as a control. As to the experiment to come; the positioning of a flow device mounted on a goniometer will probably be sufficient. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 06:17:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA22500 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 05:57:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA22444 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 05:56:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-173.austin.eden.com (net-1-179.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.179]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id HAA09343 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:56:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:56:32 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602151356.HAA09343@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Potapov II X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace said: >This is only true if you measure the voltage differential across the >device, not the supply voltage, true? This is especially true for low >impedence divices, because much of the voltage drop, and thus heat >generation, occurs outside the device, i.e. in the building wiring. in response to my: >>All electric heating devices convert %100 of the input electrical energy >>into heat. Horace, you're right, of course. I was trying to convey precisely that meaning by using the adjective "input" to denote only the electrical energy actually delivered to the heating device. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 06:40:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA02296 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 06:27:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA02196 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 06:26:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA15100; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:26:46 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20571; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:23:54 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:23:54 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602151423.AA20571@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Japanese Yusmar Exp. Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Peter, and associates: Thank you for posting the Yusmar data. It does not appear to be not complete data as posted because the data lacks an initial segment of time showing the dynamic changes of temperature in the absence of the Yusmar. Also there are no cool-down curve from which to obtain any serious calorimetric data. IMHO these are important, and a sine qua non to evaluate any of these devices for purported o/u performance. Also. Is the temperature measurement listed in your table for the bypass, as you seem to state?, or is it taken from within the 150 liter volume? Also, the incremental temperature in column 3, expt 2, @115 min does not match the observed temps. What is the room temperature? or were these expts carried out outdoors? Please excuse my lack of knowledge about this device and setup, if the answers are obvious. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 07:32:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA14899 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:17:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA14883 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadar16146; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:16:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA54781; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:16:02 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 031015070096046FEPRI; 15 Feb 1996 07:15:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 15 Feb 1996 07:15:07 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Martin Sevior Kilograms of Osmium To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/15/96 07:15:09 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/15/96 02:18 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Martin Sevior Kilograms of Osmium A logic point here. EXACTLY what I was telling an associate of mine about Joe's claims last night, to whit---- "If Mr. Champion DOES have such a capability, he should be "rolling in dough" within a few months, or he is a total idiot." I have been exposed to a brief outline of the process involved (obviously, nothing approaching the detail needed to duplicate the work), and as a Chemical Engineer I could easily see how to scale to Kilograms per week, without much investment. ROI on this phenom would make the "inventor" rich----for about 2 to 3 years. (Listing Joe?) That's about the lag time to break all the paradigms, and have the news get out that "precious metals" can be fabricated. At which point the value of the precious metals drops like a rock. MARTIN---Joe is right about one point--- he can prove himself with $$$. Good luck Joe, we await your tax returns! MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 07:37:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA15436 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:21:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA15403 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:21:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadar16740; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:21:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA57130; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:21:02 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 301320070096046FEPRI; 15 Feb 1996 07:20:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 15 Feb 1996 07:20:07 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/15/96 07:20:12 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/15/96 02:06 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. Horace: Again I repeat---the Cold Fusion .... drink of choice is Jack Daniels! From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 07:47:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA16021 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA15990 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:24:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id HAA05701; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:24:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:24:02 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Radon, power lines, cancer Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: Radon, power lines, cancer To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:08:52 -0600 (CST) Chris writes: > First, the programme covered the epidemiology. Contrary to the US > experience, the results in Europe (specifically Sweden and the UK) were > clear. Approximately twice as many childhood cancers (1:10000 instead of > 1:20000) among kids living in close proximity to power lines. Several > studies were shown, and in each case the epidemiology appeared clear enough. I believe there are also studies that show that there is a statistical correlation between income and health, in regard to certain diseases. Since there is no apparent causal link between income and some of these diseases, it is somewhat of a mystery why these type of correlations exist. In one case near here, a local advocacy group claimed that women in the vicinity of a nuclear powered electricity plant suffered from higher rates of a disease (a cancer I think.) I believe there were a number of alternate explanations, but I seem to recall one in which it was suggested that people of lower social economic means were likely to live closer to the plant. Thus they fell into the other correlative group -- lower social economic level women had the same general rate of this disease even if they did not live near nuclear power plants. My first thought, then, was perhaps in a democracy in which the average person is "middle class" [probably not the historical meaning] high tension power lines tend to get put in poorer neighborhoods. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 08:45:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA01657 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 08:32:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunny.bahnhof.se (root@sunny.bahnhof.se [193.44.91.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA01633 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 08:32:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pppnode12.bahnhof.se (pppnode12 [193.44.91.112]) by sunny.bahnhof.se (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA26240 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 17:31:51 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 17:31:51 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199602151631.RAA26240@sunny.bahnhof.se> X-Sender: grappo@sunny.bahnhof.se (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: grappo@bahnhof.se (gudmund rapp) Subject: vtx: Reed Huish´s converter Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: For Hal Puthoff and Robin van Spandoonk On Feb 28 I posted the message quoted below on vortex-L. Reed Huish has not answered, as far as I know. May I ask Hal Puthoff and Robin van Spandoonk if they got answers to their questions. If so, please e-mail me the answers if I have missed them on the network. If not, your advise would be appreciated. Thanks Gudmund Rapp grappo@bahnhof.se "To mr Reed Huish Upon the mail from Reed Huish vtxannou Hal Puthoff wrote "Reed, A question. When you say 300%o/u do you mean output/input ratio is three to one.If so, and the device outputs 1 kw, this would mean that it needs a driving power of 333 watts. Can you take the 333 watts from the output and have a stand alone, selfpowered-device of 667 watts, and has this been done? If not, why not? Thanks, Hal Puthoff puthoff@aol.com" Robin van Spaandonk wrote on a similar note: /snip "If the device is 300% O-U and produces AC Power, then it should be self sustaining. In which case it is infinitely O-U, not 300%. Please explain." /snip Mr Reed Huish, I monitor this network very closely, but I have not noticed your answer to this very basic and pertinent question. If I have missed your answer would you please reiterate and enlighten me. Thanks Gudmund Rapp e-mail grappo@bahnhof.se" From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 09:47:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA11277 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:20:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA11175 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:19:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadaz01361; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:19:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA58163; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:19:03 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 542818090096046FEPRI; 15 Feb 1996 09:18:09 PST Message-Id: Date: 15 Feb 1996 09:18:09 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Martin Sevior Kilograms of Osmium To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/15/96 09:18:27 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/15/96 07:32 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Martin Sevior Kilograms of Osmium Joe C. --- In my last posting it read, "Listing Joe?", typing error. Should have said, "Listening Joe?" Sorry. If you want to give me a call at 612-349-4152, I'll fill you in on "Hugo's Crackpot Economic ROI Theory", which may be of help with regard producing various substances.....MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 10:16:25 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA18028 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:52:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA17912 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:52:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA22110; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:50:35 -0500 Date: 15 Feb 96 12:49:37 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Gasoline yields 42 MJ/kg etcetera Message-ID: <960215174937_72240.1256_EHB62-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Various inaccurate statements have crept into the discussion here. Since I have my Grolier's CD ROM encyclopedia and my almanac at hand, and my computer is working this week (knock on wood), I would like to offer a few corrections. Frank Znidarsic wrote: "Jed will tell you a good chemical fuel produces 10 megajoules per KG." Whoops, you mean 40 to 50 MJ/kg. The most energy dense common chemical fuel is gasoline (petroleum), which is quoted between 41 and 42 MJ/kg, in different reference books. Octane is the most energy dense fraction of gasoline. It yields 1308 kilocalories per mole. Octane is C(8)H(18) so a mole weighs 114 grams. 1308 KCAL = 5.5 MJ, so it works out to be 48.2 MJ/kg. Exotic rocket fuels produce more energy per unit of mass than gasoline, but not much more I don't think. A rocket scientist like Gene Mallove would know. I believe the Space Shuttle main tank fuel is hydrogen and oxygen, which forms water, which is not a bad thing to dump into the upper atmosphere. The heat of formation of water is 68 KCAL/Mole and a mole weighs 18 grams, so that's 16 MJ/kg. Also, while I am at it, octane yields 2.19 eV/atom and water yields 0.98 eV/atom. The numbers for graphite (chemical formula C only) are interesting: 94 KCAL/Mole; one mole is 12 grams; 32.5 MJ/kg; 4.01 eV per atom. In short, graphite or coal produces more energy per atom than gasoline, but gasoline produces more energy per unit of mass, because hydrogen is 12 times lighter than carbon. In the longest CETI test I am aware of, a 40 mg sample of metal produced ~86 MJ over two months. That works out to be 2,150,000 MJ per kilogram, or 52,400 times more than gasoline. No trace of any chemical ash was observed and the cell showed no sign of petering out. It was turned off deliberately. We have every reason to suppose it might have gone on producing heat at this rate for years if they had left it running. This finding is in line with many other CF experiments over the last seven years, so I think we can safely rule out chemical energy as the source of the heat. Mitch Swartz describes a hypothesis I do not understand, but some of his individual statements are not in evidence: "Perhaps the thermometry was reasonable, but the calorimetric equation applied was wrong, because it was an approximation for relatively low flow rates in certain cases. CETI and Cravens have used various different pumps and combinations of equipment. For their best documented calorimeters the calibration curve for different flow rates is quite linear. This graph was shown at ICCF5. It is no more an approximation at low flow rates than at high rates. They did not use it a flow rates lower or higher than the range tested during calibration. Mitch goes on to say: "It does appear that it may be necessary for certain flow calorimeters to be horizontally positioned, with respect to the flow, for low to moderate flow conditions if semiquantitative results are to derived." I have never heard this before! I find this statement extraordinary. I am aware of many potential problems with thermocouples, thermistors and thermometers, including: improper grounding of thermocouples, crosstalk, instrument drift, weak batteries; mixing and positioning problems (that is, thermocouples in recessed locations outside the flow); temperature gradients between streamlines; and the wicking effect. All of these problems -- and more -- are addressed in the literature. They call all be eliminated with a modicum of attention and testing. The most common problem is insufficient mixing, which causes the temperature gradients. This can easily be eliminated with in-line mixers, a bead mixer, or a Venturi. Cravens uses all three methods. Perhaps Mitch can explain what he means here in a little more detail. To what extent can the orientation of the thermocouples affect the measurements? What is the maximum conceivable error that this problem might give rise to? How big an error could it cause with, say, a flow of 10 ml/min and a 2 - 3 deg C Delta T? How big an error could it cause with a liter per minute flow and a Delta T ranging from 8 to 17 degrees? Has this error been established by observation, or is it hypothetical? In short: "The hypothesis is not meant to be an explanation for the CETI experiments. It examined convection, conduction, and gravity-thermal instabilities." What is the magnitude of these gravity induced effects? Martin Sevior wrote: "I was going to ignore all Joe Champion's posts in the hope he'd go away but Michael Mandeville's exhortations to academics to display intellectual honesty compels me to respond. . . . I believe in conservation of Energy. . . .I believe in E = Mc**2 . . . I believe the following table which lists the stable Isotopes of Osmium, Lead and Oxygen is correct to within 0.1 MeV . . ." Martin's analysis assumes that there is only input into the reaction, and one output. This may be a gross oversimplification. As Champion has already pointed out, there may be intermediate products to the reaction and there may be other nuclear "ash" (final products) that nobody has looked for yet. I point this out because many CF experiments have yielded peculiar host metal transmutations, and some of them should have blown the researchers to Kingdom Come. As I see it, that has to mean they have not *found* all the products yet, unless it means mass energy conservation does not work. Martin concludes: "I've spent a tedious hour doing this arithmetic and looking up numbers. I'll say no more on transmutations." If this means Martin dismisses any possibility of cold nuclear transmutations, both fission and fusion, he must dismiss a vital and growing part of the evidence for CF. I would never accept Champion's claims with independent verification, but on the other hand I think it is unwise to dismiss them completely. I think Champion should provide samples to a major, independent lab that can measure the percent of each isotope in each element. If elements are being transmuted, the relative proportion of isotopes will be anomalous. This would be easy to spot and impossible to fake. Turning from science to issues political, personal, and preposterous: There is a joke running around that Stan Pons "was originally Ukrainian, under the name of Semen." Seriously, folks, he was born in the U.S., he is now a citizen of France. His ancestors came from Italy. Frank Close has repeatedly claimed that IMRA is engaged in some form of research on batteries. We have many letters, e-mail messages and public statements from him to this effect. He is either mistaken, or he is lying. Chris and I suspect the latter. We think he realizes this statement is absurd. I know it is not true, because I have spoken with Pons and Fleischmann about their work and because I have many scientific papers and official documents from IMRA and MITI describing the R&D Pons and Fleischmann are engaged in. I have spoken with officials at MITI and Toyota, and they have told me that the object of the research is to develop cold fusion, which they firmly believe is a form of nuclear energy. They have never mentioned anything about keeping Fleischmann on tap as a battery expert, and I cannot, in my wildest imagination, imagine any sane corporation spending $50 to $100 million just to retain the services of one retired professor, even a Fellow of the Royal Society. According to MITI, Toyota and the others funding the research, this work has nothing to do with batteries, unless you define the word "battery" in a peculiar, highly unconventional fashion. If you define a "battery" as a non-chemical device that can: 1. Produce 50,000 times more energy per unit of mass than gasoline, with no known upper limit and no detectible chemical changes; and 2. Transmute elements, producing helium, tritium, neutrons, in some cases massive, easily detected host metal heavy element changes, then I suppose you could say a CF device is a battery. I think this is stretching the definition of "battery" much too far. It is bit like saying that a thermonuclear bomb is an oversized firecracker. I know we want to stay from politics here, but I want to make this perfectly clear: Frank Close has made a statement regarding the intentions and corporate goals of Toyota. Not physics, corporate policy. He says this is chemical battery R&D. Yet Toyota has officially stated on countless occasions in scientific papers, in newspaper articles, on National Television, and in official position papers that they think this effect is nuclear, not chemical. If Close (or for that matter, Deiter Britz) wants to argue that Toyota is wrong and CF isn't nuclear, that is another issue. Toyota thinks it is, they say they think it is, and Close's repeated public assertions about their policy fly in the face of their official statements. I apologize for being so wordy about this issue, but I feel it is important that we recognize the difference between assertions about physics, which can debated scientifically according to experiment, logic and rules of evidence, and assertions about corporate policy, which are matters of fact that can be settled by citing official documents. Some assertions fit both categories. For example, in his book Nate Hoffman asserted that laboratory grade commercial heavy water is mixed in with used fission reactor moderator heavy water. He presented many complex scientific arguments in support of this hypothesis. This is a scientific assertion which can be falsified by scientific argument, but it is also an assertion about a matter of fact: either they mix in used moderator water, or they do not. I called Ontario Hydro, which produces and controls all of the moderator water in North America, and they assured me it is never, ever sold in bottles to the public. It is a hundred-million times too radioactive. Hoffman's scientific arguments in support of his assertion can also be analyzed and proved wrong, as Ed Storms did here: "Never mind the Pb-210 is an extremely rare isotope of lead, being produced at a maximum rate of about 3 atoms per minute from 1 gram of U-238. Only a fraction of these atoms would decay during a measurement because Pb-210 has a 21-year half-life. Most U-238 decays to Pb-214, which cannot be mistaken for tritium. Consequently the decay rate and the total number of offending atoms would be at least 15 orders of magnitude below these quantities when observed during typical tritium measurements." - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 10:35:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA22974 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:19:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (climate-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.251.148]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA22885 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:18:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.183.89.65] (macwharton.gsfc.nasa.gov) by climate.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA130078207; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:16:47 -0500 X-Sender: wharton@climate Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:18:54 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (Larry Wharton) Subject: vtx: Re: Ice maker CF experiment Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Hello all > >I probably am too ignorant to even be listened to here, but making an ass >of myself was always easy for me, so... > >While I REALLY want the latest Patterson cell to be THE ONE, my own >experiments of late with "null" cells do point up what is being refered to >in the preceding post, namely I have observed that the process does in >fact force the formation of salt crystals in the outflow. I have not yet >completed a patterson cell due to lack of beads... I will be testing for >the preceeding effect when I build my device. > >Thanks for hearing a bonehead. > >Dave Copeland >davesradio@aol.com This posting by Dave Copeland is very important as it is the first report of salt crystals in the outflow of a Patterson like cell. Any salt crystals in the outflow guarantees a spurious excess power in the usual flow calorimetry calculations which assume no salt output. Dave was referring to a spf posting which did not appear in vortex so I quote it here: "I propose to do an experiment to see if an ice maker can produce excess heat by CF or zpe or whatever. I propose to obtain an ice maker that will continiously produce and eject ice. I will put this ice maker in a vat of water with a flow of water that would carry away the ice. The outflow water would be heated up by the electrical power input to the ice maker plus the latent heat of fusion of the water crystals. If you ignore the ice in the outflow then every ice maker will give apparent o-u heat production - guaranteed. Also no part of the flow need be cold. Some parts would be hot and would cool off to a temperature above ambient as the ice melts. This experiment would produce excess heat using the same flow calorimerty technique that is used for the Patterson cell. The error, of course, is in neglecting the ice in the water outflow but this is the same as CETI and supporters ignoring the possiblity of salt crystals in the cell outflow." Now heat will be transfered from the forming salt crystals to the electrolyte solution with at most the Carnot cycle efficiency. I calculated this effect and found that the SOFE demo could be explained by it. The PowerGen 95 demo, on the other hand, had an excess energy that was too large to be explained by this effect. The spf posting follows: "A while ago I calculated the ceti (Carnot energy transfer inclusion) factor for the Patterson cell. The cell could be simply be forcing the formation of salt crystals and the output would be water with salt crystals embedded in it. The heat of formation of the salt crystals would be trasnfered into the water with the the amount of heat limited by the Carnot efficiency. Then the ceti factor would be: ceti = (power out/power in)*((Tout - Tin)/Tin) The SOFE demo had Tout-Tin about 3.5 degrees C, so the modification factor was about 3.5/300 = 1/85 which was enough to reduce the power gain of about 80 to one to give a ceti factor less than one. At the time I indicated that I would be impressed by a ceti factor greater than one. The PowerGen 95 demo had higher temperature differences and higher power multiplication factors. Here a typical ceti factor would be about 20 or much greater than one. So I must confess that the ceti factor is much greater than one - the question is what is going on. We know from Mitchel Jones' Magnum 350 test runs that the PowerGen 95 demo cell was producing much less than the claimed 450 watts. With a delta T of 6.7 C the ceti power limit is 450 * 6.7/300 = 10 watts and this figure seems more reasonable than the 450 watt number but it is still too high as the claimed input is less than 1 watt. All the CETI people would have to do is turn their cell off and insert a heater in the cell with power equal to the claimed 450 watts, or the 200 watts shown in Nightline, and observe that the whole loop of electrolyte heats up to an equilibrium temperature much higher than that observed with the cell doing the imagined heating. In other words the entire experiment, with the electrolyte still flowing, can simply be used as a static calorimeter. This would be much more reliable and it is undersatandable that the CETI poeple have not done this (or reported on it if it has been done) as the claimed power output would be much less. The CETI cell production of salt crystals is probably a major effect and it is consistant with the much lower power output indicated by the Jones Magnum 350 test runs. The observed ceti factor of greater than 10 still requires some explanation. Two possible factors are input energy from the pump and preferential formation of salt crystals on the surfaces at the cell electrolyte outflow area." Remember that the PowerGen demo had an excess power that was much too high even with the accounting for the maximum possible salt formation effect. There are two important things for the experimenters to do to check this effect: 1. Put an inline filter at the point of cell outflow and then measure the temperature after the filter. Then most of the salt crystals will be removed from the flow. The CETI setup has a filter that would remove salt crystals flowing into the cell and this should be retained. There should be no salt crystals in both the inflow and the outflow. 2. Put a heater in the cell as has been done with some of the CETI demos. This heater should be rated high enough to produce the same amount of heat as a working cell will produce. Then the cell power may be turned off and the heat rejection properties of the entire loop may be tested with this heater. This will answer the claim, along the Mitchell Jones Magnum 350 line, that the system as a whole could not possibly be dissipating the claimed heat. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 14:18:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA28760 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA28661 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:37:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA21745; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:36:34 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22554; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:28:08 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:28:08 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602152128.AA22554@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: potential positional effects in calorimetry Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> Subject: vtx: Gasoline yields 42 MJ/kg etcetera Message-Id: <960215174937_72240.1256_EHB62-1@CompuServe.COM> "Mitch Swartz describes a hypothesis I do not understand, but some of his individual statements are not in evidence: "Perhaps the thermometry was reasonable, but the calorimetric equation applied was wrong, because it was an approximation for relatively low flow rates in certain cases. CETI and Cravens have used various different pumps and combinations of equipment. For their best documented calorimeters the calibration curve for different flow rates is quite linear. This graph was shown at ICCF5. It is no more an approximation at low flow rates than at high rates. They did not use it a flow rates lower or higher than the range tested during calibration." To the contrary, let us examine the ICCF-5 data. You, and interested members of vortex, ought check the curves yourselves at the CETI home page, or as Figures 3 and Table A in Proc. ICCF-5 (p.85). The calibration curve has a lowest delta-T of ~4 or 5C ignoring the zero, zero; whereas the highest delta-T of the cell was 3.6C (range 1.1 to 3.6C). As you can see, given the absence of control points at very low input powers causing very low deltaTs in the control, the curves as presented do not necessarily rule out the hypothesis. ======================= "Mitch goes on to say: "It does appear that it may be necessary for certain flow calorimeters to be horizontally positioned, with respect to the flow, for low to moderate flow conditions if semiquantitative results are to derived." "I have never heard this before! I find this statement extraordinary. I am aware of many potential problems with thermocouples, thermistors and thermometers, including: improper grounding of thermocouples, crosstalk, instrument drift, weak batteries; mixing and positioning problems (that is, thermocouples in recessed locations outside the flow); temperature gradients between streamlines; and the wicking effect. All of these problems -- and more -- are addressed in the literature." Since you have never heard of it before, it must not have been in the literature you reviewed, Jed. Actually, I have not seen it mentioned, and therefore it was examined. The understanding is knowledge derived from the quasi-one-dimensional model of heat and mass flow calorimetry covered in the manuscript sent (and posted here for comment). ======================== " They call all be eliminated with a modicum of attention and testing. The most common problem is insufficient mixing, which causes the temperature gradients. This can easily be eliminated with in-line mixers, a bead mixer, or a Venturi. Cravens uses all three methods. Perhaps Mitch can explain what he means here in a little more detail. To what extent can the orientation of the thermocouples affect the measurements? " Jed, the flow causes a temperature gradient, right? And the detail can seen, Jed, in the four curves. Also, the orientation refers to the flow, and not to the orientation of the temperature probe, Jed. ======================= "What is the magnitude of these gravity induced effects?" Enough to possibly make excess heat appear to be more than it is if the flow is vertical AND the differential temperature probes -- used to determine the delta-T -- are vertically placed. Please see the page at URL http://world.std.com/~mica/posvar.html Thanks for the comments, and for considering this matter. Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 15:12:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA11812 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU [128.250.50.83]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA11636 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:56:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msevior@localhost) by liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id JAA22055; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:56:06 +1100 From: Martin Edmund Sevior Message-Id: <199602152256.JAA22055@liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU> Subject: Re: vtx: Re: Ice maker CF experiment To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:56:06 +1100 (EST) Cc: msevior@liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (Martin Edmund Sevior) In-Reply-To: from "Larry Wharton" at Feb 15, 96 01:18:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Lawerence Wharton questions whether the formation of LI2SO4 crystals can be cause of the CETI effect. There are a couple of other easy ways to test this. Turn down the flow rate by a factor of 2 and see whether the temperature difference goes up by a factor of two (and correcting for the decreased thermal efficiency). Do simulataneous static and flow calorimetry such as Scott and I proposed. It's all very well to say these things whether or not they get done is another matter since none of us have access to a "working" Patterson cell. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 15:46:32 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA16712 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA16690 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:24:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadbx23315; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:23:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA11288; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:23:47 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 035422150096046FEPRI; 15 Feb 1996 15:22:15 PST Message-Id: Date: 15 Feb 1996 15:22:15 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: potential positional effects in calorimetry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/15/96 15:22:52 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/15/96 14:22 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: potential positional effects in calorimetry The CETI cell that I saw in March '95 was vertically oriented. The temperature probes in the cell design just after what I saw in March were re-made using Stainless Steel thermocouple wells. The SS thermocouple wells would tend to average a temperture from a fluid flow (primarily water) around them as their thermal conductivity is at least ten times that of the water flowing around them. Yes, Mitch, you are correct on one point. The calibration work myself and my associate, Leon Sojka did, was only between 2 watts input into the in the flow stream calibration resistor and 8 watts. Over this range, however, we noted a change from about 84% effeciency to 87% effeciency of thermal "recovery". We DID NOT take enough data, over a long enough period to assure that this varience was not caused by the error bands of the measuring devices. However, our observations of a 5 degree delta T across the cell with .3 watts input power to electrolysis (when the electrolysis was just turned off---eliminating the cross talk to the thermocouples AND the thermister s) was a measurement which came from BOTH a set of thermcouples and a set of thermisters. Both measurements agreeing within .1 degree C of each other. - It should be noted that the thermister readings were made on a 10K ohm thermist er with a 400 ohm change per degree C, in a 10 out of 20 K ohm voltage divider on a 2 volt (Hewlet Packard 660 Precision voltage supply set at 2.000 volts, calibrated to NBS standards and certified 1 week before use.) source. Thus we anticipated a 400/20,000 *2Volts or a 40 millivolt change of voltage per degree C. Thus the overall differential was about 200 mV, or giving a ratio for comparison 200mV/ .5mV/Degree C for TC's, the range of the thermister readings would be off from the thermcouple voltage range by a factor of 400! (Thus making us believe that there was a strong likely hood the readings of temperature from the TC's and the thermistors were REAL numbers. Again, however, the best readings would come from the TC's and thermis tors in metal wells, due to the averaging effect. - What more needs to be said? How about making some beads yourself and trying them out? Seems simple enough....MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 16:34:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA26756 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:20:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU [128.250.50.83]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA26697 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:20:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msevior@localhost) by liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id LAA25715 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:20:11 +1100 From: Martin Edmund Sevior Message-Id: <199602160020.LAA25715@liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU> Subject: Re: vtx: potential positional effects in calorimetry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:20:11 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "MHUGO@EPRI" at Feb 15, 96 03:22:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mark Hugo wrote: > > What more needs to be said? How about making some beads yourself and trying > them out? Seems simple enough....MDH > Yeah, sure Mark. Have you got your beads yet? Martin From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 16:47:45 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA29149 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:34:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA29129 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:34:17 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA01603 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 19:33:06 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 19:33:06 -0500 Message-ID: <960215193304_323415620@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: water Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: We measured the flow of the Anahiem device with a calibrated flask that I brought with me. The fluid that came out of the cell was clear and warm. It looked like mountain spring water. I saw no crystals only warm water. I dipped a long lab thermometer into the flask, nothing fancy. The water was a few degress warmer on the outlet than the inlet to the cell. I think I got a 3 deg F delta T. What I measured was lower than the 15 deg C delta T across the cell because heat was transfered into my cold flask. I did observe, however, that the device DID heat up the water. Does anyone know the mailing address of Potapov?. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 17:07:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA01560 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA01541 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:48:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA18367; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 19:47:55 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12005; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 19:42:09 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 19:42:09 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602160042.AA12005@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: potential positional effects in calorimetry Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In Message-Id: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng., writes [Subject: vtx: potential positional effects in calorimetry] =mh "CETI cell that I saw in March '95 was vertically oriented. The temperature =mh probes in the cell design just after what I saw in March were re-made using =mh Stainless Steel thermocouple wells. The SS thermocouple wells would tend to =mh average a temperture from a fluid flow (primarily water) around them as their =mh thermal conductivity is at least ten times that of the water flowing around =mh them. Yes, Mitch, you are correct on one point. The calibration work myself and =mh my associate, Leon Sojka did, was only between 2 watts input into the =mh in the flow stream calibration resistor and 8 watts. Over this range, however, =mh we noted a change from about 84% effeciency to 87% effeciency of thermal =mh "recovery". We DID NOT take enough data, over a long enough period to assure =mh that this varience was not caused by the error bands of the measuring =mh devices. However, our observations of a 5 degree delta T across the cell =mh with .3 watts input power to electrolysis (when the electrolysis was just =mh turned off---eliminating the cross talk to the thermocouples AND the thermister =mh s) was a measurement which came from BOTH a set of thermcouples and a set =mh of thermisters. Both measurements agreeing within .1 degree C of each other." The thermometry is not the issue. It is the calorimetry and the dependance upon the standard simple equation. Your quoted efficiencies are calculated assuming the standard equation is correct. It is generally correct for horizontal systems without turbulence. It is not correct in the following case, that is when the following new non-dimensional number (name undefined, Np) is much greater than zero. heat transported by bouyant forces Np = -------------------------------------- > 0 heat transferred by solution convection ================================ =mh It should be noted that the thermister readings were made on a 10K ohm thermist =mh er with a 400 ohm change per degree C, in a 10 out of 20 K ohm voltage =mh divider on a 2 volt (Hewlet Packard 660 Precision voltage supply set at =mh 2.000 volts, calibrated to NBS standards and certified 1 week before use.) =mh source. Thus we anticipated a 400/20,000 *2Volts or a 40 millivolt change =mh of voltage per degree C. Thus the overall differential was about 200 mV, or =mh giving a ratio for comparison 200mV/ .5mV/Degree C for TC's, the range =mh of the thermister readings would be off from the thermcouple voltage range =mh by a factor of 400! (Thus making us believe that there was a strong likely =mh hood the readings of temperature from the TC's and the thermistors were REAL =mh numbers. Again, however, the best readings would come from the TC's and thermis =mh tors in metal wells, due to the averaging effect." The thermometry is not the issue. It is the calorimetry and the dependance upon the standard simple relied-upon equation at relatively low flow rates in vertical systems where Np (see above) is > 0 . ================================ =mh What more needs to be said? How about making some beads yourself and trying =mh out? Seems simple enough....MDH Where is the evidence that the beads are any better than any other preparation. Please let me know, Mark. Thanks in advance, and especially for your comments. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 18:01:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA11018 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 17:37:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from karloff.lanl.gov (karloff.lanl.gov [128.165.16.190]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA10738 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 17:37:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199602160137.RAA10738@mail.eskimo.com> Received: by karloff.lanl.gov (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA200114607; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:36:47 -0700 From: Ron McFee Subject: vtx: Potapov makes electricity? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 18:36:46 MST Cc: mcfee@lanl.gov Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Peter Gluck posted the following in his Moldovan trip report: Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 08:01:29 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" > ............................................... > >g) Potapov has solved all the engineering problems of the latest > generation of devices which produce both heat and electricity- the > "Quantum thermoelectro generators". > The following types are offered: > > Name Electrical power Thermal power Weight Appr. price > KTES kW kW kg US $ > 1 4 5 290 9,500 > 2 30 15 350 28,500 > 3 100 90 1,200 57,000 > 4 200 130 2,700 83,000 > 5 800 260 9,100 180,000 > 6 1,000 360 12,500 250,000 > 7 2,000 900 18,000 350,000 > > I have seen two of these, a KTSE-1 which generated electricity >in 5 seconds after start-up (by an auxiliary motor) and a KTES-5 >in construction; this later will generate electricity and hot water >for the whole industrial area which will become energetically >independent. >Some 20 quantum generators are in different stages of construction. > > ........................................................ > >An interesting phenomenon is the formation of ozone in the devices >proving that the water molecules are really tormented there. An >other aspect is that the performances are improved by long time >functioning, the removal of gases from the recirculated water is >a positive factor. > > ......................................................... > >Peter Gluck Frank Znidarsic writes from home: (You sure got back quick, Frank.) From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 18:47:57 -0500 >In the closed loop configuration of the Yasmir ozone builds up. Puthoff's >tests were open loop and did not allow for the build up of ozone. Ball >lightning produces ozone. Is ozone the key? Someone tell Griggs to add >ozone. Perhaps the addition will increase the efficiency. > >PS I'm on at home now. > >Did I hear the Yasmir was making electric powe? Does that mean its running >on its own, disconnected from any source of electric power? How can that be >if it has a gain of 1.25. Thermal conversion to electricity at low pressure >and temperatures would be less than 10%. It would never make enough power to >run itself let alone produce some extra.. > >Thermal eff ={temp in - temp discharge} / temp dischrage > >temps are absolute. > >Frank Z From Peter's posting I assume that Yuri Semionovich and his co-workers have succeeded in raising their thermodynamic efficiency sufficiently to generate electricity, and at the same time make their devices self sustaining. Requiring external power only for starting. This is a logical developmental progression. However I am surprised at the speed at which they appear to have done it. If this is true, Potapov deserves great admiration and thanks from everyone for an important scientific and technical achievement. As far as the ozone is concerned, there probably must be a considerable quantity of hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) too? Peter, can you confirm these points? Frank, it is not a Yasmir (or even a Yusmar) that is producing the electricity, but what Yuri Semionovich is now calling a "Quantum Thermoelectro Generator." This must be his latest and greatest class of device. If this name doesn't take, I suggest that he try and get rights to use the name "Mr. Fusion" from Steven Spielberg. Regards, Ron From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 18:30:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA18262 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:19:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA18187 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:18:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id SAA28770; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:18:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:18:37 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Numbering the messages? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:32:35 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: Mihai JALOBEANU To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Numbering the messages? Frank has asked re. the Yusmar: < ..does that mean its running on its own, disconnected from any source of electric power? How can it be if it has a gain of 1.25?> The newest type which is able to achieve this performance has a gain at the level of 6.2-6.5 as attested by the concern "Energiya" and both heat and electrical current is obtained. I have the impression that I am losing a part of the messages. Dear Bill Beaty, wouldn't be it be possible to NUMBER THE MESSAGES? (as by spf) Thank you, Peter From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 19:30:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA27238 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 19:11:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA27150 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 19:10:35 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA15905 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 22:09:00 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 22:09:00 -0500 Message-ID: <960215220842_423839878@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Potapov makes electricity? Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I got a friend at WPAFB he has heard talk of Stanley Myer. He is going to do some checking for me. Just that fact that they know Stanley is something isn't it. Frank Z From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 20:41:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA11216 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 20:23:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA11137 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 20:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.82] ([204.57.193.82]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA32474 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 21:52:52 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 19:27:38 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Re: Ice maker CF experiment Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Remember that the PowerGen demo had an excess power that was much too high >even with the accounting for the maximum possible salt formation effect. >There are two important things for the experimenters to do to check this >effect: > >1. Put an inline filter at the point of cell outflow and then measure the >temperature after the filter. Then most of the salt crystals will be >removed from the flow. The CETI setup has a filter that would remove salt >crystals flowing into the cell and this should be retained. There should >be no salt crystals in both the inflow and the outflow. > >2. Put a heater in the cell as has been done with some of the CETI demos. >This heater should be rated high enough to produce the same amount of heat >as a working cell will produce. Then the cell power may be turned off and >the heat rejection properties of the entire loop may be tested with this >heater. This will answer the claim, along the Mitchell Jones Magnum 350 >line, that the system as a whole could not possibly be dissipating the >claimed heat. > >Lawrence E. Wharton >NASA/GSFC code 913 >Greenbelt MD 20771 >(301) 286-3486 I believe the two loop calorimetric system I recently proposed also eliminates this possibility by measuring the output of the entire LiSO4 loop. Sooner or later the device must either stop making crystals or dissolve them, so the net heat flow from the process will eventually balance to zero. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 15 21:11:06 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA19571 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 20:55:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA19500 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 20:54:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a2-23.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a2-23.mel.netspace.net.au [203.17.100.23]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA11797 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:52:21 +1100 (EST) From: rvanspaa@netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Reed Huish´s converter Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 05:56:18 GMT Organization: Improving Message-Id: <3123f176.13274219@mail.netspace.net.au> References: <199602151631.RAA26240@sunny.bahnhof.se> In-Reply-To: <199602151631.RAA26240@sunny.bahnhof.se> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/16.182 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 17:31:51 +0100 (MET), gudmund rapp wrote: > >For Hal Puthoff and Robin van Spandoonk > >On Feb 28 I posted the message quoted below on vortex-L. Reed Huish has not >answered, as far as I know. May I ask Hal Puthoff and Robin van Spandoonk if >they got answers to their questions. If so, please e-mail me the answers if >I have missed them on the network. If not, your advise would be appreciated. > >Thanks >Gudmund Rapp >grappo@bahnhof.se > > >"To mr Reed Huish > > >Upon the mail from Reed Huish vtxannou Hal Puthoff wrote > >"Reed, >A question. When you say 300%o/u do you mean output/input ratio is three to >one.If so, and the device outputs 1 kw, this would mean that it needs a >driving power of 333 watts. Can you take the 333 watts from the output and >have a >stand alone, selfpowered-device of 667 watts, and has this been done? >If not, why not? > >Thanks, >Hal Puthoff >puthoff@aol.com" > >Robin van Spaandonk wrote on a similar note: > >/snip >"If the device is 300% O-U and produces AC Power, then it should be self >sustaining. In which case it is infinitely O-U, not 300%. Please explain." >/snip > > >Mr Reed Huish, >I monitor this network very closely, but I have not noticed your answer to >this very basic and pertinent question. If I have missed your answer would >you please reiterate and enlighten me. > >Thanks >Gudmund Rapp >e-mail grappo@bahnhof.se" > > For the record, I have received no reply, nor have I seen one posted. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 03:07:55 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA17219 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:30:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA17089 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:30:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadas17882; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:30:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA57232; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:30:03 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 045528070096046FEPRI; 15 Feb 1996 07:28:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 15 Feb 1996 07:28:07 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Protesting and Challenging the Telecommunications Act To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/15/96 07:28:54 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/14/96 20:41 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Protesting and Challenging the Telecommunications Act Well I'll be Fire trUCKED! From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 03:08:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA18420 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:37:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA18357 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:37:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadbm05146; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:36:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14657; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:36:03 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 443834120096046FEPRI; 15 Feb 1996 12:34:12 PST Message-Id: Date: 15 Feb 1996 12:34:12 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Gasoline yields 42 MJ/kg etcetera To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/15/96 12:34:37 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/15/96 10:16 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Gasoline yields 42 MJ/kg etcetera Jed: I was fortunate through a contact at Ontario Hydro to obtain a liter of heavy water----99.999% pure, some years ago. The documents that came with it indicated it was STRAIGHT, PURE, VIRGIN production. My contact there (now retired I believe) told me it came directly from FIRST SOURCE production, and noted the "recycle" material was handled separately for the reasons you cited. Again, right on. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 03:17:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA08657 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:41:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA08490 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:40:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-30.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-30.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.30]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA07904 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:38:12 +1100 (EST) From: rvanspaa@netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Kilograms of Osmium Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 23:41:58 GMT Organization: Improving Message-Id: <3123bfaa.526016@mail.netspace.net.au> References: <199602150028.LAA20471@liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU> In-Reply-To: <199602150028.LAA20471@liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/16.182 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:28:56 +1100 (EST), Martin Edmund Sevior wrote: [snip] >I was going to ignore all Joe Champion's posts in the hope he'd go away but >Micheal Mandeville's exhortations to academics to display intellectual honesty >compells me to respond. > >I believe in conservation of Energy. > >I believe in E = Mc**2 > >I believe the following table which lists the stable Isotopes of Osmium, >Lead and Oxygen is correct to within 0.1 MeV > >Isotope Rest Energy >Pb-204 189,971.0 MeV >Pb-206 191,834.3 MeV >Pb-207 192,767.0 MeV >Pb-208 193,699.0 MeV >Os-184 171,324.2 MeV >Os-186 173,188.1 MeV >Os-187 174,121.2 MeV >Os-188 175,052.7 MeV >Os-189 175,986.2 MeV >Os-190 176,917.8 MeV >Os-192 178,783.3 MeV >O-16 14,896.9 MeV >O-17 15,832.1 MeV >O-18 16,763.5 MeV > >Then the following possibilities exist to produce stable isotopes of >Osmium. > >Osmium Isotope Possible Transition Energy Released per transmutation > >Os-184 Can not do it >Os-186 Pb-204 - O-18 19.9 MeV >Os-187 Can not do it >Os-188 Pb-206 - O-18 18.1 MeV >Os-188 Pb-204 - O-16 21.4 MeV >Os-189 Pb-207 - O-17 17.2 MeV >Os-190 Pb-208 - O-18 17.7 MeV >Os-190 Pb-206 - O-16 19.6 MeV >Os-192 Pb-208 - O-16 18.8 MeV > >Let's say an energy release of about 19 MeV per transmutation. If I am not mistaken, Pb is element nr. 82, and Os is element nr. 76. The difference between these two is 6 not 8, therefore I would have expected reactions producing Carbon, not Oxygen, or have I missed something critical? [snip] Regards, Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 03:26:44 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA10462 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:50:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA10376 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:50:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA27967; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 17:48:58 -0500 Date: 15 Feb 96 17:45:25 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Mitchell Jones experiments Message-ID: <960215224524_72240.1256_EHB153-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex [THIS MAY BE A DUPLICATE MESSAGE. IF SO, SORRY.] Larry Wharton writes: "This posting by Dave Copeland is very important as it is the first report of salt crystals in the outflow of a Patterson like cell. . . . We know from Mitchell Jones' Magnum 350 test runs that the PowerGen 95 demo cell was producing much less than the claimed 450 watts." We do not know this. When Jones runs his calorimeter with no external heater, the temperature of the reservoir rises very significantly, 6 to 12 degrees. When Cravens runs his, the temperature of the reservoir does not rise measurably. Furthermore, when Cravens and others run these cells in calorimeters with different kinds of heat exchangers, other than the portable air cooled one, they see the same excess heat effect, of the same magnitude. Furthermore, the University of Illinois, the University of Missouri, and Motorola have tested 1 - 20 watts cells with ordinary heat exchangers and they have seen the very same large effects, proportional to input and the volume of beads. (They may also have tested the 1,000 watt cells -- I have not heard.) To my knowledge, nobody has observed the formation of salt ice crystals in an actual Patterson cell. This would be a critical observation; I am sure I would have heard about it. For that matter, if these crystals survive I am sure they would clog the micron filters and bring down the experiments. Finally, I must repeat that much of this argument is based on my observations of the Power-Gen reservoir temperature, and as I have said many times, those observations were fragmentary. I did flow calorimetry, I paid little attention to the reservoir temperature, I do not know whether it was steady or still climbing or even falling when I noted it was 35 C with 500 watts. I had my hands full doing flow calorimetry; I did not have time to do both. I note that the Patterson cell shown on ABC had the same red digital display of reservoir temperature, and at 200 watts his showed 41 deg C. (But I do not know what kind of heat exchanger he was using.) Perhaps during Power-Gen if they had let me stay another hour I would have seen the temperature gradually climb to 50 deg C, which would be right in line with Mitchell's observations. Unfortunately, after an hour or so I was hustled out to allow the next group of people a closer look. I saw it for several hours all told, but it was taking a ride in Disneyland, next door. You had to keep returning to the end of the line. I have discussed heat exchangers with a variety of people in recent weeks, and I have learned that they are complex, non-linear systems, much more difficult to understand than flow calorimeters which are designed to provide simple, direct readouts of heat, obviously -- that is the whole point of building one. I do not have anywhere near enough information to make an informed judgement of this aspect of the system, and I have lots more information than most people. For all of these reasons, it seems likely to me that Jones' heat exchanger is not as efficient as Cravens'. I cannot characterize either heat exchanger well enough to know why this is so, but I suspect several things that may play a role, including evaporation and a rather strange geometry. It is important to bear in mind that Jones has said he is not attempting to replicate the Cravens configuration. I do not know what his configuration is, but he told me he is trying to replicate the Cravens configuration, he is trying to improve on it, with a bigger fan and other changes. I have suggested to him he characterize the performance of his machine more carefully, with more systematic calibrations, and then compare notes with Cravens. I ask Larry to please bear in mind that Cravens has not retracted his findings, Cravens has found no error in his heat exchanger, so we cannot declare unilaterally that "we know" his experiment is flawed. I am sure Cravens would call me first thing if he found an error; he has done so many times in the past, when errors panned out in what we first thought were successful experiments. Larry and Mitchell suspect there is an error, but I think they go too far when they declare they know for sure there is one, especially after I have listed many solid reasons for believing there is no error. Until we get more solid information on the heat exchangers from both Cravens and Mitchell Jones, we will not know what is going on. I myself think it is more fruitful to sidestep the problem and resolve all doubts by using another kind of heat exchanger. What better method could there be? Cravens uses a water based heat exchanger in his lab, so all arguments about the portable exchanger are moot. Larry writes: "In other words the entire experiment, with the electrolyte still flowing, can simply be used as a static calorimeter." Oh no it can not. That is my point! This arrangement makes a terrible static calorimeter. Nobody has tested it as such, but I expect the response must be highly non-linear, and it may change drastically depending on how the return hose is placed in the exhaust hole, and the amount of fluid that spills out onto the pump top, under the heat exchanger chimney. I saw quite a bit of fluid up there, which must have been cooling and evaporating rapidly. People who observed the ABC film carefully will note the violent splashing and roiling the high flow rate creates. Furthermore, Mitchell's data indicates that it has a painfully slow settle time. It takes the reservoir hours to make up its mind about the terminal temperature. (Whereas the flow detection method lags only a minute or two.) Offhand, I cannot think of a worse design for a static calorimeter than this. People who set up static cells take great pains to prevent random air currents and big changes in evaporation. The only air cooled static configuration I know of is the 1970s vintage "Coolnicks" laboratory grade unit that Reiko Notoya uses. That has an array of carefully placed fans, a special design inside geometry to ensure an even bath of cooling air, double doors to lock out ambient air currents, and precision thermostatic control. It is light years ahead of Cravens' fan-in-a-plastic-cylinder approach. But of course, Cravens never intended this arrangement to act as a static calorimeter. It was designed to be a flow calorimeter, and as such it is very good. You cannot expect the instrument to work well as both. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 05:27:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA18850 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 05:05:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from bavaria.utcluj.ro (root@[193.226.5.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA18084 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 05:03:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from itimc@localhost) by bavaria.utcluj.ro (8.6.12/8.6.9) id OAA08462; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:46:17 +0200 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:46:16 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Subject: vtx: answers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex: I am answering the questions I received today (Feb 16). SCOTT: asks about the experiment, one phase vs. three phase motor: This experiment was performed by the Japanese not by Potapov. It is most expedient to you to ask them directly; you can obtain the most reliable information from the direct source which is: (I repeat) FIELD CO,. LTD. Total Commercial Design-Plan and Trading Head Office 1401-221 MAEHAMA SHINBEPPU-CHO MIYAZAKI-CITY JAPAN Tel: 001-81-985-24-1960 Fax: 001-81-985-24-1891 President: KAZUTOSHI KOBAYASHI FRANK: wants Potapov's mailing address; it is the following: DR. YURI SEMIONOVICH POTAPOV "YUSMAR" SCIENTIFIC COMPANY FABRICHNAYA ST. 4, KISHINEV 277005 REPUBLIC OF MOLDOVA Tel: 3732-233318 Fax: 3732-233318 RON wrote : "As far as ozone is concerned, there probably must be a considerable quantity of H2O2 too?" I will ask him at the first discussion. This problem will be treated in Yuri's paper intended for ICCF-6, "Physical and biological parameters of the "Yusmar" thermogenerators". Surprisingly enough, all his generators, the last type -quantum electrothermal -included are called Yusmar and it is not clear for me which one is fragmenting the water molecules in such an extent. Peter Gluck From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 07:09:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA23842 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 06:52:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA23812 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 06:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id GAA21830; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 06:52:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 06:52:15 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Kilograms of Osmium Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:28:56 +1100 (EST), Martin Edmund Sevior wrote: ... >I believe in conservation of Energy. > >I believe in E = Mc**2 > >I believe the following table which lists the stable Isotopes of Osmium, >Lead and Oxygen is correct to within 0.1 MeV So you're saying that low-energy transmutation is impossible because there is no room for it in current theory? I don't buy this argument. It has been used for centuries to justify suppression of anomalous evidence, and can be applied just as easily to CF. I think theory follows from experimentation more often than the reverse, so a better course would be to steer clear of assumptions that theory is 100% complete and unassailable, and ask for more evidence so the reality of the anomaly can be determined. Speaking of which, a Mr. Collon (sp?) runs a local SEM microprobe business, and is interested in doing some X-ray flourescence analysis of Mr. Champion's metals. He uses "pinhead" sample sizes, and so could analyze quite a variety of materials at no great cost in rare metals. No ingots required. I don't know if the following really needs to be said, but just to make sure we're all thinking of the same issues... Mr. Champion must stay aware that researchers have been burned by hoaxes before, so total openness and trust on both sides is not something which should be assumed. And the requirements of business to keep information proprietary runs counter to the way science is done. And the business goals of publicity and positive reports gets in the way of the science requirements for accuracy and freedom to investigate every aspect of a discovery. This forum isn't the most respectable or high-profile science establishment, so even highly positive results might not make a big difference for Mr. Champion's business. But I think we *can* provide some professional people who who don't automatically turn away from "impossible" claims. So, any ideas on what can be done next? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 08:04:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA03431 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 07:38:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (climate-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.251.148]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA03322 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 07:38:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.183.89.65] (macwharton.gsfc.nasa.gov) by climate.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA063454965; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:36:05 -0500 X-Sender: wharton@climate Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:38:17 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (Larry Wharton) Subject: Re: vtx: Re: Ice maker CF experiment Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >I believe the two loop calorimetric system I recently proposed also >eliminates this possibility by measuring the output of the entire LiSO4 >loop. Sooner or later the device must either stop making crystals or >dissolve them, so the net heat flow from the process will eventually >balance to zero. > > >Regards, > PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 >Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 You are right there Horace, your system, as well as several others that are proposed will eliminate the salt formation problem, Mitchell Jones Magnum 350 type total heat rejection questions, and Steve Jone's peroxide-sulfates in the outflow hypothesis. I will await the results with anxious anticipation. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 09:29:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA17918 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 08:54:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from vaxk.gat.com (GAK.GAT.COM [192.5.166.12]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA17878 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 08:53:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 08:53:45 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer@gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199602161653.IAA17878@mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 8:53:04 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Calorimetry Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner, I glad to see we have another person trying to do a Patterson cell experiment! Here are a few things my colleagues and I have learned about calorimetry in low power Patterson-like cells with flowing electrolyte. Also, a few comments about your calorimeter ideas. Flow in small Patterson cells is slow, on the order of 10 ml/min = 1/6 ml/s. Such slow flow is laminar through the cells and the interconnecting tubes alike. (The Reynolds numbers are way below the turbulence threshold.) This means that there is no flow-generated turbulence to mix warm and cold streams of fluid prior to temperature measurement. I assume that the rate of heat generation in the bead beds is not perfectly uniform, so one must assume that different stream tubes of water will exit the bed with somewhat different temperatures. Helical mixer inserts, which work fairly well in the turbulent regime, are of no avail in laminar flow, because even though they deflect the stream lines, those nice, steady, beautiful stream lines still remain nice, steady, beautiful stream lines. Fortunately, some mixing occurs in the beads (percolative flow), but it is not enough to make all the water exiting the bed the same temperature. Fortunately again, the gas bubbles from electrolysis provide some mixing, especially if there is head space above the beads (conventional orientation assumed). I don't know if the bubbles do more mixing than temperature gradient driven thermal convection (Benard convection cells that Mitchel Schwarz has been talking about), but it is likely that there will still be some temperature nonuniformity in this region. Therefore, the head space is not a good place to measure the outlet temperature. Eventually, after the fluid flows far enough along the outlet tube, its temperature nonuniformities will have settled due to thermal conduction in the fluid itself. This can take 10 cm or more. But beware, heat leaks into or out of long tubes can become problems, too. Horizontal orientation, as suggested by M. Schwarz, makes it difficult to handle the electrolysis gas. Our cells are a lot like Patterson's and we use vertical orientation and flow calorimetry directly in the electrolyte loop. We put the inlet and outlet thermocouples (TCs) in the respective inlet and outlet tubes, but only a few cm from the cell and still within the insulation surrounding the cell. Our TC OD is only a little less than the tube ID, so the liquid is forced to pass by as a fairly thin layer. I think this helps to get a good reading of the average temperature of the liquid, but I won't guarantee it as a general panecea. Gas bubbles pass by, too, but they don't seem to cause any problem. Anyway, after all is said and done, with this setup we can account well for our energy input during tests. Heffner's temperature measuring stations (TMS) avoid the electrolyte mixing problem, but they bring a few new problems. First, they have lots of surface area, and this might allow significant heat to leak in or out. Second, the liquid mass in the TMS is fairly large, and I am guessing it will take an hour or more for temperatures to stabilize in the flow loops. This will make calibration long and tedious. (I am betting here that ersatz beads do not yield large excess energy, so we need to think in overall accuracies of fractions of a watt.) (Patterson's flow calorimetry method responds in a few minutes.) Third, temperatures in the TMS water bath will not be uniform. Bath mixers would solve this problem but would add both complication and an additonal power input at each TMS. Perhaps a better solution would be to attach the temperature sensor (TC or thermistor) to a Cu sheet or a transistor heat sink that is large enough to pick up heat from a fair sampling of the water. A dewar (vacuum and silvered walls) is indeed the best thermal insulation available; most of the heat loss will be through the non-dewar top. Cravens' Monte Carlo cell was actually surrounded by two dewar jars, one below and the other inverted and above. I don't remember details, but I think he had a ring of foam material sealing the joint at the equator and through which his penetrations also went. Styrofoam, other good insulating foams and glass wool have thermal conductivities of about 0.4 mW/(cm C). Incidently, the conductivity of water in the same units is about 6, stainless steel (300 series) about 160 and Cu about 4000. Thermocouples are usually designed to be within a degree or two of absolute calibration over a wide temperature range, typically 1000 C or more. Unless you pay steep premium prices to get matched units, you need to measure the differences among your TCs at a temperature near your planned working temperature; room temperature is fine. Thermocouple output voltages are very small. Typically 0.1 C difference corresponds to about 4 microvolt difference. This is near the 1/f noise level of all but the best dc amplifiers. Averaging the signal over a long time or averaging many readings reduces the noise somewhat and permits one to achieve somewhat better than 0.1 C resolution using conventional components. As others have reported, we experienced erratic readings when trying to measure temperatures with thermocouples inserted directly into the electrolyte, but only when electrolysis was underway in the Patterson cell. I do not understand why. The inlet and outlet TCs are at different potentials, because one is in electrolyte at nearly the anode potential and the other at cathode potential. The actual TCs are inside a stainless steel sheath but are connected electrically to it. This is a conventional construction that provides better thermal conduction between the TC and the sheath. We experienced the problem using two entirely different thermocouple reading systems. These connect by relays to only one thermocouple at a time, so there is no issue of current flowing through two TCs at different potentials. Also, both amplifiers were rated to reject large common mode signals and should not have responded to electrolyte potential differences. So I do not understand why the readings were so erratic and noisy. Be that as it may, we only eliminated the problem when we bought insulated TCs. We chose some Omega TCs with teflon coated sheaths, but I imagine other insulating methods will serve. However, don't rely on cheap home made solutions like glue-sealed plastic tubing; it will fail sooner than you like, and Murphy's Law says the failure will be in the middle of a critical run! Heffner's TMSs avoid this whole problem. Thermistors are more sensitive than TCs, so in principle one can obtain higher resolution temperature measurements. Like TCs, thermistors of the same type can vary up to a degree or so, depending on tolerance specification. When the cell excess power ratio is small, heat from hydrogen and oxygen recombination in the cell is not necessarily negligible. We always measure the rate of gas evolution from the cell and compare it to ideal electrolysis. At low current densities we have found that as much as 20% of the gas has recombined in the cell, but at higher current densities it is only a few percent. We haven't seen any crystals, though. (We did consume some metal mesh before we put in Pt mesh, and we have had coatings come off beads, too.) If crystal formation does occur, it ought to be a chemical reaction, and any heat released or absorbed by the process will cease when the scarcest reactant is used up. Since Li does not form many insoluble salts, the cation probably comes from other reactive metals in the system. If there is not too much of these, the standard test is to run the system long enough that all possible chemical reactions must have ceased several times over. Calibration of the calorimeter is absolutely essential. One must not rely on design alone, because one can not predict all the deviations from ideal that will occur. Finally, live by the experimentalist's rule: "Know thy equipment." Most anomalies one sees are not excess heat but are simply (or not so simply) misunderstood features of the system. Michael J. Schaffer michael.schaffer@gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 11:09:31 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA05222 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:26:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA05131 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:26:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id NAA17081; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 13:24:38 -0500 Date: 16 Feb 96 13:19:09 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Schaffer comments on calorimetry Message-ID: <960216181908_72240.1256_EHB87-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex HERE is a helpful message about calorimetry, from Mike Schaeffer. This is the level of expertise in the presentations by the people at SRI and Amoco Production. Great stuff! A few comments: "Flow in small Patterson cells is slow, on the order of 10 ml/min = 1/6 ml/s. Such slow flow is laminar through the cells and the interconnecting tubes alike. (The Reynolds numbers are way below the turbulence threshold.) This means that there is no flow-generated turbulence to mix warm and cold streams of fluid prior to temperature measurement." Yes. 10 ml/min is too low. SRI uses 60 ml/min which they recommend. That is one of the reasons CETI have built bigger cells and gone on to higher power levels and much faster flow rates. But I did not know that 10 ml/min was so slow it defeated the bead mixing. What about the Venturi effect noted by Cravens in his paper? Quote: "The physical location of the well was in a region of large flow gradients (i.e. cross sectional areas changed from 1mm^2 to 10mm^2 back to 1mm^2)." How about 14 ml/min? "Eventually, after the fluid flows far enough along the outlet tube, its temperature nonuniformities will have settled due to thermal conduction in the fluid itself. This can take 10 cm or more. But beware, heat leaks into or out of long tubes can become problems, too." Cravens measured only about a 1 cm away from the anode, but as I noted previously, he confirmed that with the mercury thermometer, which was about 10 cm away, at the bottom of the gas trap, with the fluid dripping in. "Horizontal orientation, as suggested by M. Swartz, makes it difficult to handle the electrolysis gas." Do you agree with Swartz that the orientation is likely to cause significant errors? "(I am betting here that ersatz beads do not yield large excess energy, so we need to think in overall accuracies of fractions of a watt.)" Yes, I am afraid that is likely, and it makes the calorimetry MUCH more difficult. Patterson himself got very little heat for the first 5 years of his work in this area. "(Patterson's flow calorimetry method responds in a few minutes.)" Yup. Another big plus for flow calorimetry. "As others have reported, we experienced erratic readings when trying to measure temperatures with thermocouples inserted directly into the electrolyte, but only when electrolysis was underway in the Patterson cell." Yes, Dennis and others said that. He writes: "After extended runs, it was determined that the lithium ions from the electrolyte were causing 'decalibration errors' in the thermocouples. Furthermore, the thermocouples were not completely electrically isolated from the electrolyte. Thus, the electrolysis current could interfere with the temperature measurements." ". . . I do not understand why the readings were so erratic and noisy. Be that as it may, we only eliminated the problem when we bought insulated Tcs." Dennis reports the same thing. "Thermistors are more sensitive than TCs, so in principle one can obtain higher resolution temperature measurements. Like TCs, thermistors of the same type can vary up to a degree or so, depending on tolerance specification." Many people recommend thermistors rather than thermocouples. Yet most experiments, and most instruments like the Omega Model HH22 differential thermometers, use thermocouples. I do not know why. (A thermocouple is a bimetallic thermoelectric device. It generates a small current proportional to temperature. It is a passive device, not externally powered. A thermistor is a resistor made of semiconductors. It is externally powered. Resistance varies with temperature.) "We always measure the rate of gas evolution from the cell and compare it to ideal electrolysis." That's good! "At low current densities we have found that as much as 20% of the gas has recombined in the cell, but at higher current densities it is only a few percent." That finding is right in line with other Ni work, as I have pointed out many times previously. Never trust a CF experiment below I*V. "Calibration of the calorimeter is absolutely essential. One must not rely on design alone, because one can not predict all the deviations from ideal that will occur." Amen! Calibrate before, during and after the run. During the run, the calibration pulse will be mixed in with electrolysis power and (we hope) excess heat, but it should still be detectable. Be aware that a calibration pulse will raise the inlet fluid temperature which may give the reaction a kick. That was the whole point of Fleischmann's lecture. On-the-fly calibration gets complicated, but I think it is essential. There are some misunderstandings about the issue of calibrating flow calorimeters. In his review of ICCF3, Peter Hagelstein wrote: "M. McKubre described experiments done at SRI during the past several years. They have developed closed cell flow calorimeters, which are ideally *first principle* calorimeters (which means that the heat flow out of the cell goes into the flowing water coolant, and the power generation is determined by measuring the mass flow rate and output to input flow temperature difference, with no calibration required)." He did not mean that literally. He meant no calibration is required in theory. The instrument is not totally dependent on calibrations, the way static calorimeters are. "Finally, live by the experimentalist's rule: 'Know thy equipment.'" Amen again. And (in a friendly dig at Mitch Swartz) if you think there may be a problem with, say, vertical versus horizontal tubes, please test to find out! Always test. Incidentally, I hope nobody has taken my critique of Mitch's gravitational effect hypothesis in the wrong spirit. Mitch did a bang-up job at the MIT symposium last month. A great presentation! One of the most informative I have heard in years. It is a shame he was not able to give a talk like that at ICCF5. I hope he can make it to Hokkaido this fall. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 11:13:20 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA24775 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:30:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA24725 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:30:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA22264; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:27:21 -0500 Date: 16 Feb 96 12:25:40 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Potential positional . . . Message-ID: <960216172539_72240.1256_EHB62-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I accidentally chopped part of that message with my word processor. Let me just finish up this paragraph, with a word from Dennis I meant to include: "As you can see, given the absence of control points at very low input powers causing very low deltaTs in the control, the curves as presented do not necessarily rule out the hypothesis." Ah, well, again you don't have enough information in the publication. Let me explain. The calibration was for points between 4 and 17 watts, and the output in the weeks leading up to the conference was also in that range: 3 to 20 watts, as I recall. (The calibration curve was for use during the lab tests, not the conference demo run.) You are quite right that the Delta T during the conference was 2.5 to 3.5 deg C, which is at the low end of the scale for the calibration. That's not good. As he explained during the lecture and in the paper, the laboratory version was well insulated . . . . . . running at generally higher power levels. See Proc. ICCF5, p. 82: "During the conference, a simplified version was demonstrated. This used hand meters instead of bench meters, minium insulation for visibility and other low weight alterations . . . The demonstration was run in the low current ranges (<0.5 amps). The device was for demonstration purposes only and was designed to illustrate the reproducibility and reliability of the basic design." - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 12:01:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA18520 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:39:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA18450 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:39:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadfa27561; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA11684; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:38:55 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 784937110096047FEPRI; 16 Feb 1996 11:37:11 PST Message-Id: Date: 16 Feb 1996 11:37:11 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Calorimetry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/16/96 11:37:48 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/16/96 09:30 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Calorimetry Beware the following extreamly easy to do, but stupid error: Common grounded TC sheaths put in the electrolyte flow near the inlet and outlet of the cell will COMPETE with the cell's beads for the electrolysis current flow, effectively "shorting out" the cell, and resulting in no H2 generation. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 13:16:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA01936 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:50:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA01842 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:50:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA00966; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:49:03 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21414; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:36:15 -0500 Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:36:15 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602162036.AA21414@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Schaeffer comments on calorimetry Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> Subject: vtx: Schaffer comments on calorimetry "Horizontal orientation, as suggested by M. Swartz, makes it difficult to handle the electrolysis gas." Jed, to the degree that is so, it appears that you have a choice. You may either have inferior and possibly erroneous calorimetry under certain conditions, or the purportedly more difficult route involving whatever it means to "handle the electrolysis gas". It is not clear that electrolysis is a more serious problem than possibly inaccurate measurements. ================================= =jr In his review of ICCF3, Peter Hagelstein wrote: "M. McKubre described experiments done at SRI during the past several years. They have developed closed cell flow calorimeters, which are ideally *first principle* calorimeters (which means that the heat flow out of the cell goes into the flowing water coolant, and the power generation is determined by measuring the mass flow rate and output to input flow temperature difference, with no calibration required)." =jr He did not mean that literally. He meant no calibration is required in theory. =jr The instrument is not totally dependent =jr on calibrations, the way static calorimeters are. Jed, if you spent more time developing a broader scientific background, you would find that calibration is required for ALL calorimeters. Caveat emptor. =========================================== =jr Amen again. And (in a friendly dig at Mitch Swartz) if you think there may be =jr a problem with, say, vertical versus horizontal tubes, please test to find =jr out! Always test. Thank you for suggesting this. If you check the web page, however, please note that the theoretical study located at the cited web page IS a test. Furthermore, given the observation of potential problems for low flow rates (see the page for the appropriate non--dimensional number) it would be ridiculous to simply ignore the model and continuing to claim that calibration is not needed for this type of vertical flow calorimeter. This paper was neither a criticism of the work nor of the individuals, but was undertaken as a test of the hypothesis that thermal--induced heat transfer might play a role in some calorimeters. It does for cases cited in the manuscript. Jed has done a great job reporting, and we all took forward to his notes and reports. Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 13:57:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA08639 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 13:27:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA08537 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 13:26:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.72] ([204.57.193.72]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA04956 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:56:57 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:31:27 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Calorimetry Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael J. Schaffer, Thanks for the information and advice regarding my two loop calorimiter. After fiddling a bit I agree with and understand what you are saying. I am especially convinced stirrers are a bad idea for temperature measuring stations (TMS). The copper heat averager sounds like a really good idea. I am thinking of using 1/4" uninsulated grounding wire to make a frame to wrap the plastic tubing on. I did fail to mention that I am using lots of tubing in the stations. My initial tests were run with 120 cm of 3/16" ACE Hardware tubing. If I had had more handy I would have used maybe 300 cm. This should definitely take care of the laminar flow problem. (I had already used up lots of tubing in the constant temperature bath. I bought out the local hardware store, but they have more on order. I may have to rework my choice of tubing size to avoid too large a pressure drop system wide.) It is my hope that the long length of tubing in the TMS will in effect act like a mixer and distribute the temperature uniformly in the TMS, especially once the entire calorimeter is in steady state. The thermal insulation of the dewar appears to be excellent enough that I can use vegetable oil or some other viscous, but electrically insulating, medium and rely on thermal conductivity alone. You are right about equilibrium time, but I am substituing time for dollars at the moment. I probably will not try thermocouples for a some months. I might try a string of R0052 diodes because this method will average over the string. I can back this up with thermocouple and thermometer readings. I would like to buy a really good thermometer for calibration purposes. I don't know where to go for this. I understand Motorola makes a really good unit based on quartz crystal frequency shifts, but it doesn't sound like something I could buy for under $1000, more like $10,000 I guess. This project is going to be a real budget buster for me, especially the data acquisition system. Scott Little, I really appreciate you help finding the pump and motors. The guy at Cole Parmer told me the H-07016-00 was an old model and I should use their new model with their motor. Their motor was $275 vs. the Grainger at $55 you recommended. Needless to say, I ordered a couple of Grainger motors and stuck with the H-07016-00 pump. I also appreciate your providing the beads cheaply, but somehow I am begininnng to feel they might just be some form of costly addiction in disguise. The $200 for the 2 cc. of beads I ordered is beginning to look like very small potatoes. I should have ordered more, but if I had, that would mean a bigger flow rate, bigger pumps, bigger tubing, therefore more beads, etc. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 15:16:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA24012 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:53:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA23959 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:53:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA09504; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 17:52:15 -0500 Date: 16 Feb 96 17:50:43 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Potential positional . . . Message-ID: <960216225043_72240.1256_EHB61-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I wrote a long message about this topic but it disappeared and I did not keep a copy. I covered all the points Mitch raised. Let me just comment on a few points and then I have to take my daughter Naomi to the county science fair where she won first prize for the second year in a row. (With no help from me, either!) Yes, as I was saying . . . "If you check the web page, however, please note that the theoretical study located at the cited web page IS a test." I do not understand this use of English. A theoretical study cannot be a test; they are opposites. A test is an experiment, a theoretical study is an analysis. At least, that is how I define the words. It is still not clear to me: Is the data in the web page from theory or is it measured data from experiments? As I tried to say in the lost message, my computer will not read the graphs in the web page, so I cannot tell what they refer to. I gather from the text that this is a purely theoretical study. "Furthermore, given the observation of potential problems for low flow rates (see the page for the appropriate non--dimensional number)" Again, I am confused by the wording of this. Do you mean "observation" as in "experimental observation" or do you mean what you see based on number crunching? If the claims on the web page are based purely on theory & computation, then frankly I do not believe them. Sorry, but I find this claim a little outlandish, and I insist on seeing *experimental data* to back it up before I can take it seriously. As far as I know, when proper mixing is employed in a flow calorimeter, and the recommended flow rates and power levels are used, there is no measurable effect from orienting the tubes vertically versus horizontally. There may be such an effect under extreme circumstances, with very low flow rates or low power levels, but I have never heard of a problem with flow calorimeters at the power levels reported by people like McKubre, Storms or Cravens, although some people think 10 ml/min was a little low, as I noted previously. ". . . it would be ridiculous to simply ignore the model and continuing to claim that calibration is not needed for this type of vertical flow calorimeter." I never, ever, EVER in my life claimed that ANY calorimeter does not require calibration. You totally misunderstand me. I think my previous messages have been quite clear on this point. "Jed, to the degree that is so, it appears that you have a choice. You may either have inferior and possibly erroneous calorimetry under certain conditions. . ." What conditions? The web page paper is over my head. Please explain whether this hypothetical problem would be a factor at a flow rate of 10 ml/min with a Delta T of 2 to 4 deg C. Would it be a factor with a flow rate of 1 liter per minute with a Delta T of 8 to 17 deg C? Approximately what percent error would this problem introduce? Mitch writes: "Jed, if you spent more time developing a broader scientific background, you would find that calibration is required for ALL calorimeters. Caveat emptor." Yes, that was exactly the point I made when I said that Hagelstein "did not mean this literally." Please read my messages a little more carefully before commenting. I also pointed out in the lost message that the calibration curve I referred to yesterday was for different flow rates, not power levels. It was not reproduced in Proc. ICCF5. It is titled "CALIBRATION - OVER FLOW" It shows 11 points for flow rates between 2 ml/min up to around 16 ml/min, with 10.04 watts of power. The problems of thermal gradation are fixed by using sufficiently high flow rates plus mixing. I believe this calibration curve shows that Cravens experience no such problems, because the line is so straight. If there had been mixing problems the points down at 2 ml/min would not have lined up so nicely. Furthermore, this is done with a joule heater, and he recovers the expected amount of energy, given the reduced heat capacity of the electrolyte. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 16:08:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA23222 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:49:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA23148 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:48:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.74] ([204.57.193.74]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA05415 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 16:18:38 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 13:53:06 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Calorimetry Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >*** Reply to note of 02/16/96 09:30 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: vtx: Calorimetry >Beware the following extreamly easy to do, but stupid error: Common grounded >TC sheaths put in the electrolyte flow near the inlet and outlet of the >cell will COMPETE with the cell's beads for the electrolysis current >flow, effectively "shorting out" the cell, and resulting in no H2 generation. Yes. This is one of the reasons I came up with the temperature measuring station (TMS) and thermally insulated interconnections idea. The bath in the TMS is electrically singly insulated from the elctrolyte (Loop2) or the distilled water (Loop1) by the plastic tubing carrying those calorimeter fluids. I will probably double insulate by also having the bath be an electrical insulator as well. This will avoid the possibility of cross-talk between temperature measuring devices as well. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 16 18:10:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA27919 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:00:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA27829 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:00:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:00:30 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer@gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199602170200.SAA27829@mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:00:12 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Calorimetry Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >probably will not try thermocouples for a some months. I might try a string >of R0052 diodes because this method will average over the string. One advantage is that the deviations of individual diodes from the norm tend to average out in a string of many. However, diodes are nonlinear, so data reduction will be more tedious. But this reminds me that there is at least one IC on the market to measure temperatures. I think it is made by Analog Devices, but there might be others. It works on the nearly ideal linear temperature response of a transistor current in some kind of circuit connection. As with TCs and thermistors, there is a unit-to-unit variation, but they are pretty linear. They were not expensive. The ICs are a little large to put into Patterson cells, and I am sure they are not compatible with electrolyte. However, they ought to fit well in your temperature measurement stations (TMS), and they might be compatible with immersion in oil. However, they normally work in air. How do your TMSs work with just air inside? Better yet, can you wrap your tube around a piece of Cu pipe and then attach the IC thermally to the CU? >I would like to buy a really good thermometer for calibration purposes. Probably not necessary, because the only thing you have to measure accurately is temperature DIFFERENCES. All you need is to verify that one of your working thermometers is acceptably linear. Then measure the response of all your other thermometers with respect to it. BTW, if your peristaltic pump has too high a flow rate, and it won't work with a smaller diameter tube, you can put a small diameter tube carrying the liquid inside a short piece of the larger diameter tube that fits in the pump. (I learned this trick from Tom Tamoria of our group.) Michael J. Schaffer michael.schaffer@gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 05:22:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA25898 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:17:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA25747 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:16:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-22.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-22.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.22]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id HAA16640 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 07:14:05 +1100 (EST) From: rvanspaa@netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@ESKIMO.COM Subject: Re: vtx: water Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 21:17:56 GMT Organization: Improving Message-Id: <31246f83.2488157@mail.netspace.net.au> References: <960215193304_323415620@emout10.mail.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <960215193304_323415620@emout10.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/16.182 Sender: owner-vortex-l@MAIL.ESKIMO.COM Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@MAIL.ESKIMO.COM Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 19:33:06 -0500, FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: >We measured the flow of the Anahiem device with a calibrated flask that I >brought with me. The fluid that came out of the cell was clear and warm. > It looked like mountain spring water. I saw no crystals only warm >water. I dipped a long lab thermometer into the flask, nothing fancy. The >water was a few degress warmer on the outlet than the inlet to the cell. I >think I got a 3 deg F delta T. What I measured was lower than the 15 deg C >delta T across the cell because heat was transfered into my cold flask. I >did observe, however, that the device DID heat up the water. > >Does anyone know the mailing address of Potapov?. > >Frank Znidarsic Frank, is this you doing the measuring? Have you had access to the Anaheim device? When did all this happen? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 05:25:25 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA04260 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:51:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA04199 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:50:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.74] ([204.57.193.68]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA05931 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 17:20:33 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:55:01 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Schaeffer comments on calorimetry Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> >Subject: vtx: Schaffer comments on calorimetry > > "Horizontal orientation, as suggested by M. Swartz, makes it difficult > to handle the electrolysis gas." > > Jed, to the degree that is so, it appears that you have a choice. >You may either have inferior and possibly erroneous calorimetry >under certain conditions, or the purportedly more difficult route involving >whatever it means to "handle the electrolysis gas". > > It is not clear that electrolysis is a more serious problem than >possibly inaccurate measurements. > There could be a benefit to a horizontal cell. If it is possible to get a Patterson Cell to work horizontally with a gas bubble impervious membrane or glass frit beween the anode and cathode, that would assist much in separating the H2 and O2 so they could be recombined later in a fuel cell. The H2 and O2 bubbles could then rise in separate columns purpendicular to the electrolyte flow. This would also eliminate much of the explosion danger. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 05:25:38 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA01904 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:38:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA01845 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:38:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA06149; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:37:12 -0500 Date: 16 Feb 96 18:34:40 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Hugo, Lawrence, Message-ID: <960216233440_100433.1541_BHG51-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Mark Hugo kindly tells me: "Chris: Please call "Poynder's Guest House", 181-673-2043. Call them after 7:00PM, during a weekday evening. Ask to speak to "Steven". (You may run into Tracy, the manageress of the place---a real space cadet....you want to talk to her alledge boyfriend "Steven", as he knows what and where the thermal radiometer is (hidden!). It's your's to pick up. I suggested that a 5 pound note to Steven might be in order, but Steven pooh-poohed that." We were perhaps a trifle alarmed by that address - though from your comment it must at least be a friendly place. Actually, Norman Horwood tried a couple of times to phone while you were in the UK, but got no reply. At least, I suppose the worst winter weather we've had these many years bothered you much after what you're used to. "Anyway, the address is 20 Poynder's Road. Let's put it this way, it is within 1/2 mile of the Clapham South Tube Station. I trust you can find this 4 block long road on a detailed London map. If you have an intense thermal radiative source, this device will allow you to quantify it. You will need a good millivolt meter, that's all." Finding the place is no problem, nor is the millivolt meter. Grateful as I am for the trouble you've been to, I just have no way of getting down to London in the near future - cost and unreliable transport are the problems. Is this thing very big? Maybe another way of getting it here could be thought up. Someone quoted: "The home of the late alleged pornographer D. H. Lawrence is now a beautiful writers' retreat in the mountains above Taos, managed by the University of New Mexico." Hmm. I thought he lived in Cossall, near Nottingham, about a mile from my house. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 05:39:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA21168 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:11:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA20941 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:10:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA05166; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:06:51 -0500 Date: 16 Feb 96 12:04:10 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Potential positional effects in calorime Message-ID: <960216170409_72240.1256_EHB142-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@MAIL.ESKIMO.COM Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@MAIL.ESKIMO.COM Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I wrote: "CETI and Cravens have used various different pumps and combinations of equipment. For their best documented calorimeters the calibration curve for different flow rates is quite linear." ^^^^^^^^^^ Mitch responded: "To the contrary, let us examine the ICCF-5 data. You, and interested members of vortex, ought check the curves yourselves at the CETI home page, or as Figures 3 and Table A in Proc. ICCF-5 (p.85)." That is the wrong graph. I refer to the calibration using different flow rates, which is not reproduced in Proc. ICCF5. See the graph CALIBRATION - OVER FLOW, showing the thermal efficiency for flow rates between 1 and 17 ml/min. It is quite linear. The issue you have raised relates primarily to the flow rate, because the flow is the main source of mixing, and mixing eliminates significant temperature variation. "The calibration curve has a lowest delta-T of ~4 or 5C ignoring the zero, zero; whereas the highest delta-T of the cell was 3.6C (range 1.1 to 3.6C)." Actually, zero, zero is one of the most important data points for these cells. They have been run in heat after death reactions for days at a time, where input is zero, zero but output is zero, way-up-there producing heat. The people who have seen these results don't want to talk about them, but I don't mind mentioning them. :-} "As you can see, given the absence of control points at very low input powers causing very low deltaTs in the control, the curves as presented do not necessarily rule out the hypothesis." Ah, well, again you don't have enough information in the publication. Let me explain. The calibration was for points between 4 and 17 watts, and the output in the weeks leading up to the conference was also in that range: 3 to 20 watts, as I recall. (The calibration curve was for use during the lab tests, not the conference demo run.) You are quite right that the Delta T during the conference was 2.5 to 3.5 deg C, which is at the low end of the scale for the calibration. That's not good. As he explained during the lecture and in the paper, the laboratory version was well insulated The point is, the calorimeter measures output, not input. Input is irrelevant. As I said, Various Unnamed People have run these cells with significant output and zero input for extended periods, in heat after death mode. As long as the output data points fall within the range of calibrated points (4 to 17 watts), input makes no difference. Let me explain this in a more detail, because it is interesting. Suppose we have a flow calorimeter with a flow rate of 14.28 ml/min, so that 1 watt causes a 1 deg C temperature rise. Pretend it is perfectly insulated to simplify things. Imagine we calibrate at 1, 3 and 5 watts and we see a nice straight response of 1, 3 and 5 deg C Delta T. HOWEVER, at very low power levels, various non-linear effect begin to dominate. Things like bubble formation and electronic noise may make the curve fall or rise abruptly, such that a one-tenth watt input causes the Delta T to up 0.2 deg C instead of 1 deg C. Or maybe it rises only 0.03 deg C instead of 0.1. I don't know which direction the curve might bend and I would not want to predict. The point is, calorimeters are not reliable below a certain power level, and the only way to find out where that level starts is to calibrate. However, while the data point for 0.1 watts is spurious, we know one thing about it for sure: it will never be as high as 1 deg C. We already calibrated that point, and we know it represents 1 watt. The response below the minimum threshold may not be predictable, it may not fall in line, but those low points never overlap the higher points. You cannot get a 1 deg C temperature rise from two different input power levels: one calibrated and one not calibrated below that. (With the low power levels, noise may cause scattered points and overlaps, but in our imaginary calibration we determined that the 1-watt level was nice and steady -- that's what I mean when I say was calibrated. If it was not steady, that puts it in the noise below the threshold). Okay, let us pretend we run a CF cell. The temperature rises 2 deg C. Input is reduced to 0.1 watts, and output remains at 2 deg C. That input level has never been tested in the calibration, but so what? The calorimeter measures output -- not input. The 2 deg C level *has* been tested, and that is all that matters. We know the instrument is reliable at this output level. It is impossible for 0.1 watts to produce the same data point as 2 watts. We don't know where 0.1 watts would fall, but it has to be somewhere down in the noise below 1 watt. Okay, now imagine we cut input completely, to zero, and output hangs around at 2 deg C for a couple of days, in heat after death. That's the extreme example. We know for sure that should not produce no Delta T, but it does, so there has to be excess. "Since you have never heard of it before, it must not have been in the literature you reviewed, Jed." That's impossible. The literature describes tried and true techniques. If gravitation effects were significant at the power levels normally measured by flow calorimetry, and if people were not aware of that fact, then flow calorimetry would not work. Flow calorimetry has been around since the early 1900s. If the orientation of the tubes was a significant problem, someone would have realized that fact decades ago, and the textbooks would warn you. Flow calorimetry has been in extensive, widespread use for decades, all sources of large errors *at normal performance domains* were eliminated long ago. If they had not been, nobody would use flow calorimeters, because they would be unpredictable. There are no gigantic surprises left in mature technology. Things like internal combustion engines, thermometers, and airfoils *always work* when you use them in the standard, textbook performance domains and you make no stupid mistakes, like leaving out the mixers. Of course, if you are talking about an extreme situation, with a flow of a fraction of a milliliter per minute, or a power level of 40 milliwatts, then all bets are off. In that situation I have no idea how a calorimeter would perform. Always avoid extreme situations not covered by the textbooks. That is why the recombination experiments performed by Steve Jones are invalid. He was working with power levels a thousand times lower than anyone else. He was far away from the normal power and temperature domains these instruments were designed to handle. That is like trying to fly a Boeing 747 at 20 miles an hour. "The understanding is knowledge derived from the quasi-one-dimensional model of heat and mass flow calorimetry covered in the manuscript sent (and posted here for comment)." Well, I suppose you mean that the hypothesis is derived from a model, and not from experimental data. I would bet dollars to donuts that if you test this hypothesis at normal power levels, between about 0.5 watts and 20 watts, you will see no measurable effect. It would be dead simple to test it, so I think you should. Just install an in-line mixer followed by a thermocouple in a tube. Run warm water through at a constant flow rate of 10 ml per minute. Use standard power levels and ordinary flow rates; avoid extremes! Mount that section of the tube in a holder and leave it vertical for a half day, then tilt it horizontal for a half day. Look and see if there is any measurable difference in the temperature. I guarantee that the in-line mixer will extinguish all measurable effects from streamlines, gravity, phase of the moon and other sources of thermal noise. That's what in-line mixers are for. Get those plastic Omega brand ones recommended by SRI. "Jed, the flow causes a temperature gradient, right?" Not if you mix it, it doesn't. "And the detail can seen, Jed, in the four curves." Okay, I tuned in but unfortunately my software cannot display the curves well. And the paper is over my head, I confess. I have never heard of Bernard instability. On the other hand I have seen lots of flow calorimeters, I know they work, and I know it does not matter whether the flow goes vertical or horizontal as long as you mix it. I gather these curves (which I can barely see) are derived from a model. Quote: "The attached figure shows four graphs which show the time-varying distribution of temperature in such a quasi-one-dimensional model." Sorry, that doesn't count. I don't buy it. Not to be disrespectful, but I only believe experimental data, not models. You have to show me data from an experiment where you tilt a tube and you see 2 watts look like four watts; or one-tenth watt look like 450 watts; or zero watts look like 10 watts. Me: "What is the magnitude of these gravity induced effects?" Mitch: "Enough to possibly make excess heat appear to be more than it is if the flow is vertical AND the differential temperature probes -- used to determine the delta-T -- are vertically placed. Oh, come now Mitch. Be specific. "Enough to possibly . . ." is not an answer. Could this effect make a 3 deg C Delta T temperature error with a 10 ml flow, with a Venturi and a bead bed stirring the flow? Yes or No? It's your paper so please do the computations for us. Could it produce a 17 deg C Delta T error with a liter per minute flow and an in-line stirrer? How on earth could the water not have been mixed in my 250 ml samples, which showed the same gigantic Delta T? (Except -- as I noted here in December -- when we used that heavy, heat absorbing graduated cylinder Frank brought.) Consider this: in the smaller calorimeter, with the 10 ml/min flow, Dennis installed a mercury thermometer in the gas trap (that tube with the blue stopcock under it in the photo). The water drips into the tube, pools up at the bottom, and then gurgles out to the reservoir. The mercury thermometer probe was at the bottom, in the pooled-up water. Obviously, the water is well mixed as it drips down. I doubt you could measure *any* thermal gradation in a system like that, even with the best electronic thermometers in the world. But in any case, the probe on a mercury thermometer is so big, it will touch all levels in the pool and average out the temperature gradations. Okay, that mercury thermometer showed about the same Delta T as the thermocouples and thermistors. It was a little cooler, because the water cooled down by the time it reached the gas trap, even when they insulated the tubes along the way, but it showed a very significant elevated temperature. It showed the water was much hotter than the reservoir. I would say that experimental proof beats all models, hands down. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 06:51:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA01253 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 06:42:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA01213 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 06:42:15 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA16179 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 09:41:01 -0500 Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 09:41:01 -0500 Message-ID: <960217094100_324826131@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: water Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robbin, my efforts were supported by the former VP of GPU Jack Herbein. I was at the CETI demo in Decmeber, with Miley, Rothwell, Hal Fox, and Tom Passell. Yes I did the measuring. Frank Z From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 07:33:02 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA13901 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 07:14:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA13837 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 07:14:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.68] ([204.57.193.68]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA10541 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 06:14:27 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 06:19:06 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Calorimetry Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael J. Schaffer wrote: >One advantage is that the deviations of individual diodes from the norm >tend to average out in a string of many. However, diodes are nonlinear, so >data reduction will be more tedious. > >But this reminds me that there is at least one IC on the market to measure >temperatures. I think it is made by Analog Devices, but there might be >others. It works on the nearly ideal linear temperature response of a >transistor current in some kind of circuit connection. As with TCs and >thermistors, there is a unit-to-unit variation, but they are pretty linear. >They were not expensive. The ICs are a little large to put into Patterson >cells, and I am sure they are not compatible with electrolyte. However, >they ought to fit well in your temperature measurement stations (TMS), and >they might be compatible with immersion in oil. However, they normally >work in air. How do your TMSs work with just air inside? Better yet, can >you wrap your tube around a piece of Cu pipe and then attach the IC >thermally to the CU? This sounds like a really good idea. I still need a bath for the mercury thermometer(s). Maybe I could cap the bottom of the pipe and use the inside of the pipe for the bath, leave air on the outside. Wrap the pipe and solder to small guage copper pipe that would carry tubing plus water for thermal contact. Solder a flat plat to the outside for mounting semiconductors. One strategy I have considered for comparison and validation is to put in a redundant differntial system. The differential system works by using two (hopefully) well matched thermisters as diagonally opposing legs of a bridge connected to a MC1712G IC which gives a 10 to 1 gain. The output voltage is zero when the temperature differential is zero. I would place the thermisters in successive TMS's in a loop. Again, if there is a non-zero voltage it is probably non-linear with respect to the thermal differential, and each differential circuit would need a calibration curve, but there would be great sensitivity to any differential heat. A separate reading of absolute temperature is still needed to apply a calibration table, but this would be helpful anyway for the redundancy and cross-verification. > >>I would like to buy a really good thermometer for calibration purposes. > >Probably not necessary, because the only thing you have to measure >accurately is temperature DIFFERENCES. All you need is to verify that one >of your working thermometers is acceptably linear. Then measure the >response of all your other thermometers with respect to it. But that's the main problem. I need one good dependable standard, even if it is just relative. Ice water can provide the baseline. Without at least one quality thermometer everything is for naught. > >BTW, if your peristaltic pump has too high a flow rate, and it won't work >with a smaller diameter tube, you can put a small diameter tube carrying >the liquid inside a short piece of the larger diameter tube that fits in >the pump. (I learned this trick from Tom Tamoria of our group.) This may come in handy. My flow rate is .4 ml/s. Of course, I am hoping a cc. of beads generates so much heat it will require much larger flow rates, but optimism usually results in poor designs! Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 07:45:57 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA20680 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 07:34:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA20621 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 07:34:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.68] ([204.57.193.68]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA10657 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 06:34:03 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 06:38:41 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Calorimetry Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael J. Schaffer wrote: [snip] Better yet, can >you wrap your tube around a piece of Cu pipe and then attach the IC >thermally to the CU? I wrote: This sounds like a really good idea. I still need a bath for the mercury thermometer(s). Maybe I could cap the bottom of the pipe and use the inside of the pipe for the bath, leave air on the outside. Wrap the pipe and solder to small guage copper pipe that would carry tubing plus water for thermal contact. Solder a flat plat to the outside for mounting semiconductors. [snip] Another idea: A large diameter copper pipe capped on the bottom could be used to hold both the bath and the calorimeter fluid tubing on the inside. A flat copper plate soldered on the outside (in air but still inside the Thermos dewar) could then be used to mount semiconductors. A mica plate could provide electrical insulation from the plate if needed. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 08:12:39 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA29939 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 08:02:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA29867 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 08:02:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id LAA29811; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 11:01:12 -0500 Date: 17 Feb 96 11:00:11 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Omega in-line mixer / flowmeter Message-ID: <960217160010_72240.1256_EHB105-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I have mentioned the Omega brand in-line mixers here a few times. I would like to briefly describe what that is. Perhaps Mike Schaffer can tell us a little about how streamlines would act at various flow rates when they encounter an in-line mixer. He mentioned that under certain conditions the flow lines hang together and fall right back into place, like a football game half-time marching band executing a complicated gyration. That's amazing! Interesting, too. I would like to hear a little more about it. It sounds like the basis for some form of homeopathy. :-} The in-line mixer is simple, but I find it hard to describe. I wish I had graphics capabilities here. It is a small plastic rod with four rows of vanes arranged around it, kind of like a miniature steam turbine core, or a jet engine. Except that in a turbine, the vanes all point the same way (so that the fluid passing through pushes the turbine the same direction), whereas each row of vanes in the in-line mixer points in different direction. To use the mixer, you simply stuff it into a section of tube just large enough to hold it. You insert in right before the fluid reaches a thermocouple. Once you stuff it into a tube, you cannot get it out again, but the mixers are cheap; you buy 10 or 20 at a time. As the water gurgles down the tube, it hits the first row of vanes which stir it clockwise, then the next row which abruptly send it back the other way, and so on. It would be interesting to drip a little food coloring into a stream of water to see how it behaves when it encounters an in-line mixer at various different flow rates. In John Logajan's home page I posted a blurry photo of an old mixer sticking out of a tube. This sort of thing constitutes the nuts and bolts of flow calorimetry. (Nuts and bolts are important too. They rust!) So I find it interesting, even though it is simple, low tech and prosaic. Kind of like assembling and trueing up a new bicycle wheel from spokes. A drop of food coloring in the flow reminds me of an interesting high tech gadget in the ICCF5 calorimeter. I do not think I have discussed it previously. The sensor for the precision flowmeter in that rig is a little black box (naturally it has be a black box). The stream of water is diverted through the box. It has an inlet side and an outlet side, which you must get right or it will not work. As the water flows through, a tiny heater close to the inlet side produces a brief, intense pulse of heat, which heats up the water. This hot spot passes a sensor 2 or 3 cm downstream. The time it takes the water to move that distance is measured. Apparently, the wave of heat does not spread out (or blur) significantly during the short trip down the inside of the box. The box is connected to a larger instrumentation box and a red LED readout. It measures flow to within a fraction of a milliliter per minute. It is said to be more accurate than the propeller or float flowmeters, and it does not impede the flow. I do not recall the manufacturer. I could look it up. Dennis said it was expensive. At ICCF5 they also had a gas flowmeter to measure effluent gas from electrolysis. That is a good idea. They once accidentally ran liquid electrolyte through it, which is not a good idea. Hey, this is science. Things like that happen. It is a big time risk. This is no job for wimps! You should only do science if you are a risk-taking he-man guy with enough guts to drink a second cup of decaf without putting an extra dime in the parking meter outside, even though you suspect the meter might expire any minute now and you saw a car get ticketed at that spot two years ago. You have to be "a steely-eyed rocket scientist" -- to quote the movie Apollo 13. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 09:06:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA13460 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 08:53:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA13388 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 08:53:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA29631; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 11:52:49 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29319; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 11:49:55 -0500 Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 11:49:55 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602171649.AA29319@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Potential Positional Effects Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> has made a few comments in Subject: vtx: Potential positional . . . =jr I covered all the points Mitch raised. This sounds like some of the old-tyme skeptics on s.p.f., Jed. If you did not have access to even see the graphs, as you state in your very note to me, then you could not begin to be have covered the points. Right? ========================================================== =jr Let me just comment on a few =jr points and then I have to take my daughter Naomi to the county science fair =jr where she won first prize for the second year in a =jr row. (With no help from me, either!) =jr =jr Yes, as I was saying . . . "If you check the web page, however, please note that the theoretical study located at the cited web page IS a test." =jr I do not understand this use of English. A theoretical study cannot be a test; =jr they are opposites. A test is an experiment, a theoretical study is an =jr analysis. At least, that is how I define the words. Jed, we all hope that Naomi enjoys the science fair and takes a "ribbon". In the scientific method, hypotheses are tested and the results examined. As a result of the experiment(s) used to test the hypothesis, new hypotheses are generated, and as a result, the scientific method moves forward. In science, those tests of hypothesese can be theoretical or experimental. Theoretical work too, when they are grounded in science. A theoretical experiment led to the discovery of special relativity. =========================================== "Furthermore, given the observation of potential problems for low flow rates (see the page for the appropriate non--dimensional number)" =jr Again, I am confused by the wording of this. Do you mean "observation" as in =jr "experimental observation" or do you mean what you see based on number =jr crunching? As in observation to see where the number crunching went. The solution of differential equations and the integral equations which connect them to the real world are every bit as valid as the approximate formula upon which you rely and cling. The formula you use is derived from them, and is only valid under certain conditions. =========================================== =jr If the claims on the web page are based purely on theory & computation, then =jr frankly I do not believe them. Sorry, but I find this claim a little =jr outlandish, and I insist on seeing *experimental data* to back it up before I =jr can take it seriously. Jed, your use of flow calorimeters is "purely based on theory & computation", is it not? Like yourself, the web--site suggests actually seeing "experimental data" to back up vertical flow calorimeters for those conditions where the heat transfer from bouyant effects is on the order of the heat transfer from convection. ============================================================== =jr I never, ever, EVER in my life claimed that ANY calorimeter does not require =jr calibration. You totally misunderstand me. I think my previous messages have =jr been quite clear on this point. Please excuse my error. It appeared that you repeatedly claimed that flow calorimeters are more believable than static calorimeters, and that less calibration is needed. Given this result, that is not correct. ============================================================= "Jed, to the degree that is so, it appears that you have a choice. You may either have inferior and possibly erroneous calorimetry under certain conditions. . ." =jr What conditions? The web page paper is over my head. Please explain whether =jr this hypothetical problem would be a factor at a flow rate of 10 ml/min with a =jr Delta T of 2 to 4 deg C. Would it be a factor with a flow rate of 1 liter per =jr minute with a Delta T of 8 to 17 deg C? Approximately what percent error would =jr this problem introduce? It depends upon the non-dimensional parameter which is the ratio of heat transfer from thermal-induced bouyancy to the heat transfer from convection. That is not over you head, Jed. The final manuscript goes into more detail about this parameter, and that iteration will be on the web-page shortly probably by midweek. ================================================ =jr "Mitch writes: "Jed, if you spent more time developing a broader scientific background, you would find that calibration is required for ALL calorimeters. Caveat emptor." =jr Yes, that was exactly the point I made when I said that Hagelstein "did not =jr mean this literally." Please read my messages a little more carefully before =jr commenting. Jed, why then did you bring it up. If you agree with me, then you ought consider the effect of that vertical thermal-induced heat transport further --- and its impact on that simplistic equation, and under what conditions it will swamp the convection transport. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 09:16:34 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA14548 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 08:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA14518 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 08:58:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA29977; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 11:57:49 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29473; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 11:50:24 -0500 Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 11:50:24 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602171650.AA29473@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Potential (Part II) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> writes: Subject: vtx: Potential positional effects in calorime =jr I wrote: "CETI and Cravens have used various different pumps and combinations of equipment. For their best documented calorimeters the calibration curve for different flow rates is quite linear." ^^^^^^^^^^ =jr Mitch responded: "To the contrary, let us examine the ICCF-5 data. You, and interested members of vortex, ought check the curves yourselves at the CETI home page, or as Figures 3 and Table A in Proc. ICCF-5 (p.85)." =jr That is the wrong graph. I refer to the calibration using different flow =jr rates, which is not reproduced in Proc. ICCF5. See the graph CALIBRATION - =jr OVER FLOW, showing the thermal efficiency for flow rates between 1 and 17 =jr ml/min. It is quite linear. The issue you have raised relates primarily to the =jr flow rate, because the flow is the main source of mixing, and mixing =jr eliminates significant temperature variation. No. Flow is what creates the temperature differential upon which you rely. Flow may mix, but it creates the assymetry upon which the equation purported "works". The issue raised relates to the non-dimensional parameter which is the ratio of heat transfer from thermal-induced bouyancy to the heat transfer from convection. ======================================== "The calibration curve has a lowest delta-T of ~4 or 5C ignoring the zero, zero; whereas the highest delta-T of the cell was 3.6C (range 1.1 to 3.6C)." =jr Actually, zero, zero is one of the most important data points for these cells. =jr They have been run in heat after death reactions for days at a time, where =jr input is zero, zero but output is zero, way-up-there producing heat. The =jr people who have seen these results don't want to talk about them, but I don't =jr mind mentioning them. :-} Please address the issue raised, Jed. That is: the delta-T range subtended by the data in the ICCF-5 paper. The power levels of output are derived. Assume we accept the thermometry; then the delta-Ts are your "signal". ======================================== "As you can see, given the absence of control points at very low input powers causing very low deltaTs in the control, the curves as presented do not necessarily rule out the hypothesis." =jr Ah, well, again you don't have enough information in the publication. Let me =jr explain. The calibration was for points between 4 and 17 watts, and the output =jr in the weeks leading up to the conference was also in that range: 3 to 20 =jr , as I recall. (The calibration curve was for use during the lab tests, =jr not the conference demo run.) You are quite right that the Delta T during the =jr conference was 2.5 to 3.5 deg C, which is at the low end of the scale for the =jr calibration. That's not good. We agree. Also, the absence of issues of noise, etc. ought be addressed. ===================================== =jr "As he explained during the lecture and in the =jr paper, the laboratory version was well insulated =jr "The point is, the calorimeter measures output, not input. Input is irrelevant." Not if o-u activity is being examined. ====================================== =jr "As I said, Various Unnamed People have run these cells with significant output =jr and zero input for extended periods, in heat after death mode. As long as the =jr output data points fall within the range of calibrated points (4 to 17 watts), =jr input makes no difference." Have worked with nickel cells, many batches and types, for years, and believe that there is probably not "heat after death" in nickel but that it could be "observed" with failure to identify initial conditions and intrinsic calorimetric noise levels. And so when it comes from someone who presents NO initial calibrating curves, and NO measurement of the calorimeter noise and settling times, there is insufficient evidence to believe it. ======================================= =jr Let me explain this in a more detail, because it is interesting. Suppose we =jr have a flow calorimeter with a flow rate of 14.28 ml/min, so that 1 watt =jr causes a 1 deg C temperature rise. Pretend it is perfectly insulated to =jr simplify things. Imagine we calibrate at 1, 3 and 5 watts and we see a nice =jr straight response of 1, 3 and 5 deg C Delta T. HOWEVER, at very low power =jr levels, various non-linear effect begin to dominate. Things like bubble =jr formation and electronic noise may make the curve fall or rise abruptly, such =jr that a one-tenth watt input causes the Delta T to up 0.2 deg C instead of 1 =jr deg C. Or maybe it rises only 0.03 deg C instead of 0.1. I don't know which =jr direction the curve might bend and I would not want to predict. The point is, =jr calorimeters are not reliable below a certain power level, and the only way to =jr find out where that level starts is to calibrate. IMHO, it is not reliability, but sensitivity and linearity of response that are the issues -- along with selectivity. A calorimeter could not be very sensitive below its thermal noise level (and some factor dealing with the settling time). It must also distinguish between the two types of heat transport in a flow system (which by its name assumes a lack of the bouyant flow variety). ======================================== =jr However, while the data =jr point for 0.1 watts is spurious, we know one thing about it for sure: it will =jr never be as high as 1 deg C. We already calibrated that point, and we know it =jr represents 1 watt. The response below the minimum threshold may not be =jr predictable, it may not fall in line, but those low points never overlap the =jr higher points. You cannot get a 1 deg C temperature rise from two different =jr input power levels: one calibrated and one not calibrated below that. (With =jr the low power levels, noise may cause scattered points and overlaps, but in =jr our imaginary calibration we determined that the 1-watt level was nice and =jr steady -- that's what I mean when I say was calibrated. If it was not steady, =jr that puts it in the noise below the threshold). Okay, let us pretend we run a =jr CF cell. The temperature rises 2 deg C. Input is reduced to 0.1 watts, and =jr output remains at 2 deg C. That input level has never been tested in the =jr calibration, but so what? The calorimeter measures output -- not input. The 2 =jr deg C level *has* been tested, and that is all that matters. We know the =jr instrument is reliable at this output level. It is impossible for 0.1 watts to =jr produce the same data point as 2 watts. We don't know where 0.1 watts would =jr fall, but it has to be somewhere down in the noise below 1 watt. Okay, now =jr imagine we cut input completely, to zero, and output hangs around at 2 deg C =jr for a couple of days, in heat after death. That's the extreme example. We know =jr for sure that should not produce no Delta T, but it does, so there has to be =jr excess. Jed, if you put input into a calorimeter at a power level below the intrinsic noise level of the calorimeter, you may THINK you have excess heat, but you got only noise plus what you put in plus whatever it did. Now put on your engineering hat. Could one have the case where the noise (say 150 milliwatts) made the input (say 1 milliwatts, maybe even with a 150% gain by some purported o-u process) seem like a "15000% gain"? yes, and under those conditions the o-u value is: wrong. Could one have bouyant heat transfer comprised as a component of convective heat transfer? yes, and under those conditions the o-u value is wrong by an amount related to the ratio of heat transfers. ============================================= "Since you have never heard of it before, it must not have been in the literature you reviewed, Jed." =jr "That's impossible. The literature describes tried and true techniques. If =jr gravitation effects were significant at the power levels normally measured by =jr flow calorimetry, and if people were not aware of that fact, then flow =jr calorimetry would not work. Flow calorimetry has been around since the early =jr 1900s. If the orientation of the tubes was a significant problem, someone =jr would have realized that fact decades ago, and the textbooks would warn you. =jr Flow calorimetry has been in extensive, widespread use for decades, all =jr sources of large errors *at normal performance domains* were eliminated long =jr ago. If they had not been, nobody would use flow calorimeters, because they =jr would be unpredictable. There are no gigantic surprises left in mature =jr technology. Things like internal combustion engines, thermometers, and =jr airfoils *always work* when you use them in the standard, textbook performance =jr domains and you make no stupid mistakes, like leaving out the mixers." Give us a break, Jed. Laser, teflon, PCs, Josephson junction, negative pi mesons, special relativity, ... Come on, Jed, you usually argue exactly the opposite. There has been an obtundation towards hard science. But it offers reward and opportunities. I keep suggesting to science fair students that they measure the specific heat of venous and arterial blood from an animal since they are different, and measureable, to get some practice. Such neat feats were done by Lavoisier (methinks) and other calor-investigators of his time. [ Perhaps Naomi on her next project? ;-)X ] There are gigantic surprises to those that investigate rather than blather that it has all been done. ========================================= "Jed, the flow causes a temperature gradient, right?" =jr "Not if you mix it, it doesn't." Really? Please write out the equation you use. Are there two different temperatures? Are there two spatial locations linked through space or solution? Does the temperature vary between said two locations? What is your definition of a temperature gradient? =================================== Me: "What is the magnitude of these gravity induced effects?" Mitch: "Enough to possibly make excess heat appear to be more than it is if the flow is vertical AND the differential temperature probes -- used to determine the delta-T -- are vertically placed. =jr Oh, come now Mitch. Be specific. OK. Have developed a new dimensionless parameter which is more specific. It will be in an article shortly, with thanks to the many of vortex who contributed ideas prior to the time the paper was sent to the publisher. It is (or will be shortly) also available at URL = http://world.std.com/~mica/posvar.html which will have an update to the original draft manuscript posted at that location. I want to thank Gayle Verner, Hal Fox, Horace Heffner, Mark Hugo, Jed Rothwell, Barry Merriman and Michael Schaeffer and Profs. Louis Smullin and Keith Johnson of MIT for the helpful comments and criticism during the development of the model and the preparation of this manuscript. Best wishes. Mitchell From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 12:49:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA20312 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 12:40:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA20260 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 12:40:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadiw21224; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:40:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA04972; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 12:40:00 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 922939120096048FEPRI; 17 Feb 1996 12:39:12 PST Message-Id: Date: 17 Feb 1996 12:39:12 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Schaeffer comments on calorimetry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/17/96 12:39:29 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/17/96 05:25 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Schaeffer comments on calorimetry Horace: The electrolysis generation rate is SO SMALL in the Patterson cells, as to be a non-sequitor. MDH (Man with experience of 5 hydrogen explosions in 6 years, all with electrolysis levels 10 times that of Patterson, and all INCONSEQUENTIAL lid blowers!) MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 12:54:08 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA19972 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 12:39:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA19946 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 12:39:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadiw21141; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:39:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA04954; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 12:39:00 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 365937120096048FEPRI; 17 Feb 1996 12:37:12 PST Message-Id: Date: 17 Feb 1996 12:37:12 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Hugo, Lawrence, To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/17/96 12:37:58 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/17/96 05:25 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Hugo, Lawrence, Chris: The device is not that heavy, but it probably would cost you 20 pounds to have it shipped. It is about 6 KG in weight, it is about 8"X10" with a 2' long probe arm. You are not slaying the Poynder's area as being "dangerous" are you? If so, I might warn you that that is similar to people from "outstate" Minnesota not wanting to go to downtown Minneapolis or St. Paul, because "those areas are dangerous". Not quite! As to transportation, excuse me Chris---didn't you visit New Hampshire and St. Petersburg recently? When I was in England a couple weeks ago, I took a round trip to Oxford on a tour bus for $6 US (4 pounds) and to Duxford for $18 US, or12 pounds. Seems to me, as unfamilar as I am with England, I did a pretty good job getting around. - All I have to say is that the longer the device stays at Poynders, the more likely it is to be thrown out as junk. (Although it isn't. It is EXACTLY what you NEED to evaluate your thermal radiation generating phenom.) - In case you haven't gathered---I'm doing a perhaps not too subtle chiding here. I went to some effort to bring you a tool that you can use. I would expect that you could perhaps put some effort out to go retrieve it. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 14:09:38 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA15872 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 13:56:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA15812 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 13:56:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA11469; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 16:54:43 -0500 Date: 17 Feb 96 16:53:40 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: There's hope, after all. Message-ID: <960217215339_100433.1541_BHG58-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:vortex I don't suppose Jed Rothwell will post here the quite superb paper with which his daughter won not only her category in the County Science Fair, but also the Big Prize as well. I'll only say that it was about her experiments on mopping up oil-spills, and I would take it as am model of basic but very well-done and well-described work. We hear a lot about how in the UK the young have lost all interest in science, to the point where the universities are quite desperate to get hold of anybody who can count above ten without removing their socks. But if Miss Rothwell's work is anything to go by, I think we will be entering the C21st with some very good young people. Let's hope some of them go in for science. Interestingly enough, her conclusion - that ground-up corncobs were about the best - seems to fit with the story on the BBC television, where some fellow was using straw made into rolls of matting by being stitched on to some cheap netting material. It turned out that this was wonderful at mopping up oil, and could later be rolled up and used as fuel in appropriate furnaces. The actress Joanna Lumley ("Absolutely Fabulous" etc) had been supporting this financially. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 15:27:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA07158 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:13:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA07096 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:13:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.79] ([204.57.193.79]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA02005 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 14:06:06 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 14:17:28 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Hugo, Lawrence, Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >*** Reply to note of 02/17/96 05:25 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. [snip] >In case you haven't gathered---I'm doing a perhaps not too subtle chiding >here. I went to some effort to bring you a tool that you can use. I would >expect that you could perhaps put some effort out to go retrieve it. MDH If Chris is not interrested, I am - if it is available for postage and a small gratuity. I may have a very nifty little application for such a gadget. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 15:51:34 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA16422 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:43:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA16365 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA23053; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 18:41:49 -0500 Date: 17 Feb 96 18:36:26 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Pyrometer Message-ID: <960217233625_100433.1541_BHG37-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Mark, "You are not slaying the Poynder's area as being "dangerous" are you?" Good Lord, no. There are a few 'dangerous' places in England (and a great number in Scotland, of course). But Poynder's isn't one of them. "As to transportation, excuse me Chris---didn't you visit New Hampshire and St. Petersburg recently?" Yes - but not at my own expense, even if I did pay a bit towards the NH trip. Look, I was getting a small monthly funding until a week ago, that's gone now. What cash I had has gone on the "Cincinnati Group" calorimetry, my "car" has no spare tyre and does not run well. By bus I could get to London for maybe L20 return, but my pension does not run to such trips. Any sane person in my position would be out job-hunting, which I may well now do. I *DO* genuinely appreciate your efforts to get the pyrometer to me, and I'll TRY to think up a way of getting it here. I would very much like to have it, but at this rate 'anomaly science' will have to give way to more practical matters. "In case you haven't gathered---I'm doing a perhaps not too subtle chiding here. I went to some effort to bring you a tool that you can use. I would expect that you could perhaps put some effort out to go retrieve it." I try to project an impression of normality, Mark, but that's all it is - an impression, and a false one at that. But I get lucky from time to time, and if I do then retrieving the pyrometer will be very high on the list. On the matter of the Cincinnati stuff, it does *appear* to be o-u. With losses disregarded, I appear to be able to trap 1.5kJ per 1kJ input. But that is very very preliminary. I've rebuilt the electrical supply and measurement system, which had intrinsic weaknesses in handling the surges which can accompany the process. Naturally, I would not be willing to predict the outcome of any further testing I may do. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 16:51:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA06004 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 16:42:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA05957 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 16:42:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id QAA03199; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 16:41:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 16:41:42 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Numbering the messages? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:32:35 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: Mihai JALOBEANU I have the impression that I am losing a part of the messages. Dear Bill Beaty, wouldn't be it be possible to NUMBER THE MESSAGES? (as by spf) I don't think so, not without being able to rewrite the Majordomo software to include a new feature. Let me see what I can do. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 18:25:58 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA02371 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 18:12:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA02337 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 18:12:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id VAA23111; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 21:10:43 -0500 Date: 17 Feb 96 21:07:25 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Potential Positional Effects Message-ID: <960218020725_72240.1256_EHB140-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Mitch writes: "In the scientific method, hypotheses are tested and the results examined. As a result of the experiment(s) used to test the hypothesis, new hypotheses are generated, and as a result, the scientific method moves forward. . . Theoretical work too, when they are grounded in science. A theoretical experiment led to the discovery of special relativity." Yes. Right. I know that. But you never did answer my question. Did you or did you not experimentally verify your hypothesis? I guess the answer is no. Anyway, let us drop the subject and move on to address a few of these other points. "It depends upon the non-dimensional parameter which is the ratio of heat transfer from thermal-induced buoyancy to the heat transfer from convection. That is not over you head, Jed." I'll be the judge of what's over my head, thank you! I wouldn't know a non dimensional point if I sat on it. "Flow is what creates the temperature differential upon which you rely. Flow may mix, but it creates the assymetry upon which the equation purported "works". Not "may." Flow *does* mix if you take steps to ensure it will. That is what every expert in flow calorimetry has told me, from Mike McKubre to Ed Storms, and that is what I myself have observed working with various flow calorimeters. "Have worked with nickel cells, many batches and types, for years, and believe that there is probably not "heat after death" in nickel but that it could be "observed" with failure to identify initial conditions and intrinsic calorimetric noise levels." You are incorrect. There have been two highly reliable reports of massive heat after death from nickel, lasting for extended periods of time. These effects were reportedly far about the noise level. Unfortunately I cannot discuss them in greater detail. "And so when it comes from someone who presents NO initial calibrating curves, and NO measurement of the calorimeter noise and settling times, there is insufficient evidence to believe it." Who do you refer to? Who has presented NO initial calibration curves, NO measurement of noise, and so on? This sort of statement belongs on s.p.f., not here. "Jed, if you put input into a calorimeter at a power level below the intrinsic noise level of the calorimeter, you may THINK you have excess heat, but you got only noise plus what you put in plus whatever it did." No, that would only be the case if output was also below the noise level. Let us take an example. Imagine a calorimeter capable of measuring up to 2000 watts to the nearest 10 watts, where the noise level is anything below 20 watts. Suppose input is a tenth-watt. Obviously, a control run at this power level will yield no detectable signal. However, when the *output* goes up to 200 watts, or 500 watts, that is way above the noise level, and it cannot possibly be a misreading of the tenth-watt input. The input is far too small to measure, it is tantamount to zero, but output is impossible to miss, so we know there is excess. As I said, in some cases you can actually reduce input to zero (not tantamount, but the real thing, or the real zero non-thing) and the heat keeps going and going and going . . . like the Everready Bunny. "Could one have the case where the noise (say 150 milliwatts) made the input (say 1 milliwatts, maybe even with a 150% gain by some purported o-u process) seem like a "15000% gain"? yes, and under those conditions the o-u value is: wrong." Ah, yes. Of course. One could have that. But one doesn't. The examples I refer to, including the heat after death effects, were not a bit like that. They were macroscopic, far above the noise level. I automatically dismiss almost all reports of microscopic CF effects (which I define arbitrarily as below 1 watt), even when the calorimetry is superb. If the reports were in the milliwatt range I would pay no attention to them. I must see tens of watts before I buy anything, and at least 50% excess compared to I*V. I also automatically toss out all results below recombination, even when effluent gas is measured. I have rigorous standards. I wrote: "There are no gigantic surprises left in mature technology. Things like internal combustion engines, thermometers, and airfoils *always work* when you use them in the standard, textbook performance domains . . ." Mitch responded: "Give us a break, Jed. Laser, Teflon, PCs, Josephson junction, negative pi mesons, special relativity, ..." Lasers, Teflon, PCs and Josephson junctions are the extreme opposite of mature technology. That is brand new technology, full of surprises no doubt. I assert there are no surprises left in the performance of the mercury thermometer or the gasoline powered internal combustion engine; lasers and the like are a different story. "There are gigantic surprises to those that investigate rather than blather that it has all been done." You have turned my meaning upside down, and you have substituted brand new technology -- the laser -- for my 19th century internal combustion engines, 18th century mercury thermometers and circa 1900 flow calorimeters. Pardon me for saying this, but your responses seem a little hasty, and not well thought out. Mitch: "Jed, the flow causes a temperature gradient, right?" Me: "Not if you mix it, it doesn't." Mitch again: "Really? Please write out the equation you use. Are there two different temperatures? Are there two spatial locations linked through space or solution? Does the temperature vary between said two locations? What is your definition of a temperature gradient?" Sorry, I don't do equations. I have zero talent for equations. If I want to find out whether a vertical tube with an in-line mixer will produce a significantly different temperature reading than a horizontal tube, I will test that hypothesis by experiment. I cannot imagine doing it any other way. In this case, I do not believe the hypothesis is correct and I do not have flow calorimetry equipment handy, so I will not test it. The temperature gradient in a flow calorimeter is between the inlet and the outlet to the cell. There should be no significant, measurable gradient at any point across the flow in the outlet section of the tube. If there is, the equipment is designed wrong; mixing is insufficient. A "measurable" gradient is +/-0.1 deg C in my book. Anything smaller than that shouldn't matter. If it *does* matter you are doing the experiment wrong. You should boost excess power by factor of 10 to make it easier to detect. If you cannot boost it by a factor of ten, you are in the wrong business, because other people like Evan Ragland, Ed Storms and Jim Patterson can. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 20:31:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA03469 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 20:11:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA03418 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 20:11:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA23633; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 23:11:42 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03800; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 23:09:03 -0500 Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 23:09:03 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602180409.AA03800@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Potential Positional Effects Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> writes: Subject: vtx: Potential Positional Effects =jr "Mitch writes: "In the scientific method, hypotheses are tested and the results examined. As a result of the experiment(s) used to test the hypothesis, new hypotheses are generated, and as a result, the scientific method moves forward. . . Theoretical work too, when they are grounded in science. A theoretical experiment led to the discovery of special relativity." =jr Yes. Right. I know that. But you never did answer my question. Did you or did =jr you not experimentally verify your hypothesis? I guess the answer is no. The answer is yes. I already answered this as follows, Jed. " In the scientific method, hypotheses are tested and the results examined. As a result of the experiment(s) used to test the hypothesis, new hypotheses are generated, and as a result, the scientific method moves forward. In science, those tests of hypothesese can be theoretical or experimental. Theoretical work too, when they are grounded in science. A theoretical experiment led to the discovery of special relativity." ============================================= "Have worked with nickel cells, many batches and types, for years, and believe that there is probably not "heat after death" in nickel but that it could be "observed" with failure to identify initial conditions and intrinsic calorimetric noise levels." =jr You are incorrect. There have been two highly reliable reports of massive heat =jr after death from nickel, lasting for extended periods of time. These effects =jr were reportedly far about the noise level. Unfortunately I cannot discuss them =jr in greater detail. Right. Undiscussable. They are therefore not really "reports". I remain open-minded about this however. ======================================================= "And so when it comes from someone who presents NO initial calibrating curves, and NO measurement of the calorimeter noise and settling times, there is insufficient evidence to believe it." =jr Who do you refer to? Who has presented NO initial calibration curves, NO =jr measurement of noise, and so on? This sort of statement belongs on s.p.f., not here. Why? because it asks for the requisite data? ============================================== "Jed, if you put input into a calorimeter at a power level below the intrinsic noise level of the calorimeter, you may THINK you have excess heat, but you got only noise plus what you put in plus whatever it did." =jr No, that would only be the case if output was also below the noise level. Let =jr us take an example. Imagine a calorimeter capable of measuring up to 2000 =jr watts to the nearest 10 watts, where the noise level is anything below 20 =jr watts. Suppose input is a tenth-watt. Obviously, a control run at this power =jr level will yield no detectable signal. However, when the *output* goes up to =jr 200 watts, or 500 watts, that is way above the noise level, and it cannot =jr possibly be a misreading of the tenth-watt input. The input is far too small =jr to measure, it is tantamount to zero, but output is impossible to miss, so we =jr know there is excess. As I said, in some cases you can actually reduce input =jr to zero (not tantamount, but the real thing, or the real zero non-thing) and =jr the heat keeps going and going and going . . . like the Everready Bunny. No reports in nickel. If you have them, call me, or direct me. Otherwise, having checked out scores of samples, having checked out the calibration algorithms of both the CFusioneers and the TB-skeptics, it remains unlikely because of the material nature of this Group VIII material, IMHO. =============================================== "Could one have the case where the noise (say 150 milliwatts) made the input (say 1 milliwatts, maybe even with a 150% gain by some purported o-u process) seem like a "15000% gain"? yes, and under those conditions the o-u value is: wrong." =jr Ah, yes. Of course. One could have that. But one doesn't. The examples I refer =jr to, including the heat after death effects, were not a bit like that. They were macroscopic, far above the noise level. Perhaps. Where is the beef (data)? ======================================== =jr : "Jed, the flow causes a temperature gradient, right?" =jr Me: "Not if you mix it, it doesn't." =jr Mitch again: "Really? Please write out the equation you use. Are there two different temperatures? Are there two spatial locations linked through space or solution? Does the temperature vary between said two locations? What is your definition of a temperature gradient?" =jr Sorry, I don't do equations. I have zero talent for equations. Then you had better not use equations to derive anything. Seems that you use equations when they "prove" your point, and dismiss any discussion about whether they are correct. Is there, or is there not, a differential, i.e. a delta-T along the axis of convection flow? ===================================== =jr The temperature gradient in a flow calorimeter is between the inlet and the =jr outlet to the cell. There should be no significant, measurable gradient at any =jr point across the flow in the outlet section of the tube. If there is, the =jr equipment is designed wrong; mixing is insufficient. We are talking about the temperature variation along the direction of the flow. We are NOT talking about variations transverse to the flow. Please try to understand that this was a quasi-one-dimensional model and there is NO variation transverse to the flow. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 22:26:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA08606 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 22:14:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA08545 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 22:14:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-237.austin.eden.com (net-1-237.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.237]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id AAA05849 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 00:14:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 00:14:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602180614.AAA05849@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: calorimetry/thermometers X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Hi gang...I've been busy! Mitchell, I like your positional effects paper. However, I'm a little puzzled by the 2nd pair of plots where velocity=1. From the data you plotted it doesn't look like the vertical orientation produces a larger delta-T in the sensors than the horizontal orientation...am I reading those plots wrong? Horace, I have satisfied my "accurate thermometer" desire by purchasing a 600mm long mercury-glass unit from Cole-Parmer (OMEGA has 'em too) that is graduated in tenths of a degree C and is claimed to be accurate to 0.1 C. Actually, I bought two of them and I am please to report that they agree to within about 0.03C. The price is $70. Range is 0-100C. Schaffer is right that the most important measurement is delta-T...not T. Horace, you need lots of insulation on the lines that lead to and from your temperature measurement stations in order to keep ambient temperatures from noticeably affecting the temperature of the fluid that flows slowly through those lines. Also, keep the lines as short as possible. I, too, am a bit concerned about the response time of the TMS's...why not just build the TMS's directly into the end caps of the cell, making them much smaller and closer to the cell? Mike Schaffer: I was intrigue by your report that you measured less than expected gas production from your cell at low power indicating some recombination. I have made fairly careful gas measurements on two completely different CF experiments (one was D/Pd and the other was H/Ni) and, in both cases, I observed about 1.06 times the amount of gas expected from the electrolysis current alone. I'm pretty sure the excess was water vapor, created in the relatively warm cell. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 17 23:42:20 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA01015 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 23:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA00968 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 23:30:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA07330; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 02:30:28 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28854; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 02:26:39 -0500 Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 02:26:39 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602180726.AA28854@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Potential positional effects of flow calorimetry Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little - little@eden.com writes: Subject: vtx: calorimetry/thermometers =sl Mitchell, I like your positional effects paper. However, I'm a little =sl puzzled by the 2nd pair of plots where velocity=1. From the data you =sl plotted it doesn't look like the vertical orientation produces a larger =sl delta-T in the sensors than the horizontal orientation...am I reading those =sl plots wrong? 1. Good observation. You are probably comparing figures 2 and 4 (they are labeled in the latest iteration at posvar.html). Note that if the flow decreases then the system should approach that described spatially by figures 1 and 3. Now note that figure 1, in the limit of relatively low flows, shows no signal at the boundary condition of zero convection, but figure 3 might show a non-zero signal because the zero convection boundary condition is different. The convection flow rate shown in figs 2 & 4 is one incremental position per unit time. In contrast, the relative bouyancy drift rate, and relative thermal diffusion rates can be inferred from figures 1 and 3 which show each curve for that same unit of time. Thus, figures 2 and 4 show a fairly brisk flow rate, and probably a series of six curves would have been better to demonstrate the effect. 2. I am leaning towards the use of the non-dimensional parameter regarding heat transport by bouyancy and convection as discussed in the latest revision of the paper. Thanks. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 00:19:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA22859 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 23:05:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from bos1b.delphi.com (SYSTEM@bos1b.delphi.com [192.80.63.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA22826 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 23:05:35 -0800 (PST) From: JOEFLYNN@delphi.com Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V5.0-6 #10880) id <01I1CBH8Z9NS96Z3Z8@delphi.com> for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 02:05:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 02:05:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: vtx: NOTE 02/14/96 01:16:00 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <01I1CBH8Z9NU96Z3Z8@delphi.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"vortex-l@eskimo.com" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: 17-FEB-1996 08:33:40.18 NEWMAIL From: IN%"vortex-l@eskimo.com" To: IN%"vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com" "vortex" CC: Subj: vtx: Hugo, Lawrence, Return-path: Received: from mail.eskimo.com (root@mail.eskimo.com) by delphi.com (PMDF V5.0-6 #10880) id <01I1BARDKTS09880KK@delphi.com> for JOEFLYNN@delphi.com; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 08:33:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA01904 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:38:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA01845 for ** End of message ** Mark, I just returned from Boston, had a pleasant meeting with Gene Mollove re: CF. I would like to hear that EVERY lab can obtain the same results independent of CETI. I'm very openminded and do believe that, even though we don't like to admit it, physics is an infant in the grand scheme of things. If 100 x input is possible, we shouldn't wait for an explanation to put it in use but repeatability and accurate (all explantions explored) measurements are the interum replacement for understanding. Simply waiting to hear many labs achieve the same results. Further, even if CF were not the action for the reaction for 100 x input it would still be a magnificent discovery. Joe From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 00:19:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA13477 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 00:07:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from bos1b.delphi.com (SYSTEM@bos1b.delphi.com [192.80.63.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA13440 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 00:07:52 -0800 (PST) From: JOEFLYNN@delphi.com Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V5.0-5 #10880) id <01I1CDNUCQ3K9EHGH3@delphi.com> for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 03:07:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 03:07:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: vtx: Gasoline yields 42 MJ/kg etcetera To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <01I1CDNUCQ3M9EHGH3@delphi.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"vortex-l@eskimo.com" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: If CF is possible how do we know for sure that every chemical reaction produces ash. We can't be openminded on one front and and not the other. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 00:33:38 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA19018 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 00:25:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA18971 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 00:25:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id DAA09780; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 03:25:05 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07332; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 03:21:20 -0500 Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 03:21:20 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602180821.AA07332@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Gasoline yields 42 MJ/kg etcetera Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Because CF is another physical manifestation of nuclear physics and material science, that is quite probably consistent with physical law as we know it. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 00:35:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA19480 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 00:26:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from bos1h.delphi.com (SYSTEM@bos1h.delphi.com [192.80.63.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA19435 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 00:26:44 -0800 (PST) From: JOEFLYNN@delphi.com Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V5.0-5 #10880) id <01I1CEC1YPZA9EHGH3@delphi.com> for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 03:26:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 03:26:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <01I1CEC1YPZC9EHGH3@delphi.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"vortex-l@eskimo.com" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'm not really suggesting anything except consider all possibilitys even something as simple as specific gravity of electrolyte before during and after operation, look for simple solutions work toward more complex, by using the "least resistive method" sometimes insight can be gained to aid in analysis of the more complex solutions down the road. The transistor analogy was simply to demonstrate two things which are similar in some but not all respects. Consider all causes and effects.. all things that might appear to produce more heat and rule out. When we qualify a battery as having "to short a life" then we rule out the possible discovery of a "super battery" ( not suggesting this, just pointing out) which would be a significant discovery in itself. If we are to remain openminded to CF we most also be open minded to "all" possibilitys. Joe From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 04:32:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA14353 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 04:17:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA14195 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 04:17:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.65] ([204.57.193.65]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA05058 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 03:10:32 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 03:21:42 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: calorimetry/thermometers Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > >Horace, I have satisfied my "accurate thermometer" desire by purchasing a >600mm long mercury-glass unit from Cole-Parmer (OMEGA has 'em too) that is >graduated in tenths of a degree C and is claimed to be accurate to 0.1 C. >Actually, I bought two of them and I am please to report that they agree to >within about 0.03C. The price is $70. Range is 0-100C. This sounds really good. What thermometer well inner diameter would accomodate one of these thermometers? > >Schaffer is right that the most important measurement is delta-T...not T. > >Horace, you need lots of insulation on the lines that lead to and from your >temperature measurement stations in order to keep ambient temperatures from Most of the connections will be about 10 cm in length. >noticeably affecting the temperature of the fluid that flows slowly through I plan to measure the loss by pumping water at various temperatures through a string of TMS's in series. They should all read nearly the same T and dT. >those lines. Also, keep the lines as short as possible. I, too, am a bit >concerned about the response time of the TMS's...why not just build the >TMS's directly into the end caps of the cell, making them much smaller and >closer to the cell? > My TMS design objectves are to accomodate: 1. Generalized support of lots of measuring techniqes at a single point. At very minimum I need to be able to support 2 thermisters with leads at 4 different voltages for two thermister delta T bridge circuits (one to the prior TMS, one to the next). I would also like to eventually accomodate a total of two mercury thermometers, three thermisters (two differential and one absolute, 6 voltages), a thermocouple, a diode array, and possibly some other stuff. All that stuff would not be operational at the same time but might be in different combinations at different times. I plan to enter the Thermos cap with very small guage wiring the electrical insulation of which can not be depended upon. 2. Complete and sure electrical insulation of the flowing calorimitry fluid from the thermometers. 3. Complete and sure electrical insulation of the thermometers and their leads from each other. 4. All thermometers at a single measuring station must (as close as possible) provide the same readings. None must be "downstream" from the other. 5. Thermal stability. A long enough time constant that multiple thermometer readings can be taken in sequence at one TMS without the temperature changing significantly. This provides a minimal perturbance to temperature from momentary "reading currents" or from dipping a thermometer into the bath for a quick verification reading. This will also reduce the amount of data necessary to collect and insure that even a small temperature change is a significant event. This also permits longer time constants for electrical averaging of readings, reducing electrical noise. 6. Long fluid flow path (200 cm.) within the TMS eliminating the laminar flow thermal gradient problem. 7. The ability to have every measuring station at the same elevation, eliminating convection errors. 8. Ability to easily control thermal mass. This allows the use of 2 stations in sequence as a thermal differentiometer, i.e. to simply obtain a direct measure of average dT/dt over a particular period without process control equipment. 9. Cheap. Under $10 per station. The typical distance between stations will be about 10 cm. I plan to use a minimum of 1 cm of foam between any 2 pieces of tubing and 3 cm of foam from ambient conditions. Everything in the 2 loop calorimiter will be incased in one large foam block built up in layers of foam panels. The Thermos caps will be mounted under and supported by a foam panel supported by a foam block with round holes cut in it for the various Thermos dewar stations. The Thermos caps will have urethane foam sprayed into them to seal and insulate the wires and tubing and minimize cap heat loss. The exceptions to dewar stations will be the (2) pump/motor and (1) heat exchanger enclosures which will be made of multiple foam panels a total of at least 5 cm thick. There should be a long run of tubing to the heat sink water bath for Loop1, but there is no need to insulate that very much. Thanks to suggestions from Micheal Schaffer I am currently building some "solid state" TMS inserts using copper pipe wrapped with a coil of the fluid carrying tubing (and silicone seal) with a flat copper plate attached to the top for electronics. A hole is drilled in the plate to accomodate a small diameter copper tube well for a thermometer. It should be interesting to see if response times come down from hours to minutes. I plan to place thin plastic film on top of the copper plate and to pressure mount electronics to the plate using a piece of foam bolted to the plate. Well insulated compunents can be directly mounted to the plate with thermal grease. It is not planned but would also be possible to mount things inside the coil pipe. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 07:57:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA04415 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 07:46:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA04323 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 07:45:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id KAA23049; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 10:44:10 -0500 Date: 18 Feb 96 10:43:38 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Hugo, Lawrence, Message-ID: <960218154338_100060.173_JHB109-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> I would expect that you could perhaps put some effort out to go retrieve it. MDH << Just to put you in the picture folks: As Chris said, I tried on several occasions while Mark was over here to phone this Poynders establishment but only got RNA. I tried again today and got an answer-phone which was something else so I resisted the impulse to leave a similarly cryptic message. I then had the brainwave to look up on the electronic BT directory for anything with a Poynder in its name - success!! There were 2; one a fish bar a few doors down from the address given by Mark, the other a fruit shop next door, neither of which were open on Sunday. So, I have sent a fax to the quoted No: (which actually is a fax m/c with a recorded female saying "hold the line" until you shout or whistle at it) asking Steve if I can pick up the pyro next Thursday am when I will, coincidentally, be passing close on my way in to Mayfair for a lunch date. Mind you, I will obey the instructions from the AA and keep all attractive items hidden in the boot (trunk) and lock the doors while traversing that section of our metropolis, just in case! Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 09:03:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA15052 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 08:50:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA14981 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 08:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id IAA24647; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 08:50:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 08:50:20 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Mixers In-Reply-To: <199602180614.AAA05849@natashya.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A little off the top of my head about "mixers." I don't know the structure of the devices used in this application, but in theory it is possible to mix a laminar flow without resorting to turbulence. The mixing device has to *stir* the flow, it has to fold one flow into the other numerous times. Imagine mixing two colors of paint with a stick. It is true that if a perfect laminar flow is pushed backwards through the mixer it will unmix. But it is not true that the mixing is velocity dependant. Mixing tubes are used to combine 2-component adhesives. Epoxy paste definitely doesn't flow turbulently through a blade-filled tube, and the black/white type definitely turns grey after mixing. A stirring process in theory does not mix a flow, it merely divides it into smaller and smaller adjacent unmixed regions. But with epoxy, diffusion takes over when the regions are narrow enough and so completes the job. With a temperature gradient across a water flow, thermal conductivity between adjacent thin hot/cold regions should rapidly complete the mixing process. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 09:36:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA22348 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 09:25:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA22314 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 09:25:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA10024; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 12:23:55 -0500 Date: 18 Feb 96 12:21:32 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Potential Positional Effects Message-ID: <960218172131_72240.1256_EHB62-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I asked Mitch a couple of time whether he performed an experiment to check this hypothesis. I am sorry, but I still do not understand the answer: "I already answered this as follows, Jed. 'In the scientific method, hypotheses are tested and the results examined. As a result of the experiment(s) used to test the hypothesis, new hypotheses are generated, and as a result, the scientific method moves forward . . .'" I read that twice before, but it does not answer my question. Let me try just one more time, because I am curious about this: Did you perform a physical experiment? Did you actually run water through a tube and measure the temperature? Do those graphs (which I cannot read) represent measured data from a physical experiment, or are they generated by computer from theory? If you did physical experiments -- with test tubes, water, and thermocouples -- please explain your findings in a few sentences. What was the measured temperature difference between vertical and horizontal tubes? What was the flow rate, and did you employ an in-line mixer or other stirring device? Please do not refer me to your paper again because, as I said, it is over my head. I mentioned that there have been two highly reliable reports of massive heat after death from nickel, lasting for extended periods of time. Mitch responds: "Right. Undiscussable. They are therefore not really "reports". I remain open-minded about this however." Well, they are reports because I just reported them. Right here! I can discuss them a little bit, just as I can discuss the tile burning experiments. It is a real shame this kind of information is restricted, but that is not my fault. You better remain open minded because my information is golden. And if I do say so myself, my information always is golden or I would not say a word about it in public. You get the straight dope from me, and those who ignore it have all been mistaken in the past. I asked Mitch: "Who do you refer to? Who has presented NO initial calibration curves, NO measurement of noise, and so on? This sort of statement belongs on s.p.f., not here." Mitch replies, cryptically: "Why? because it asks for the requisite data?" No, I ask why because I do not know who the hell you are talking about. Who do you think did no initial calibration? You are making vague, unfocussed allegations about someone out there, but you refuse to say who. Everyone I know who has tested the CETI device has done a splendid job on initial calibration curves, measurement of noise, and all the rest. That includes the people who observed heat after death. If you have a gripe about a specific researcher, please name names. Let us not have open ended accusations that might apply to anyone. Regarding heat after death, Mitch writes: "No reports in nickel. If you have them, call me, or direct me." I just did direct you! Twice in a row! In two previous messages I told you that groups have seen high sigma heat after death results. The data is every bit as convincing as the data from ICCF5 and SOFE '95. The same high quality calorimeters. Calorimetry is easier when you do not have to account for input. Pons and Fleischmann made that point in their paper about Heat after Death. "Otherwise, having checked out scores of samples, having checked out the calibration algorithms of both the CFusioneers and the TB-skeptics, it remains unlikely because of the material nature of this Group VIII material, IMHO." How the heck could you have checked out the calibration algorithms of the people who got heat after death if you do not even know who they are?!? I checked them out, you didn't. So how can you judge? You don't know a thing about it. If you think that I am incapable of judging calorimetry then I suppose you can doubt the reports on that basis, but you sure cannot dismiss calibration algorithms you have not seen! The only published Ni heat after death work is Piantelli, which is gas loading. Gas loading is always "heat after death." There is no mechanism by which energy can be added to the Ni after the pressurization cycles end, except magnetic pulses I guess, but my understanding is they are only used to trigger the reaction. You have to keep the sample hot, but heat flows from the sample to the surroundings, so that doesn't count. I have a question about these scores of Ni samples you checked out. Did you ever see output 1000 or 4000 times greater than input? If not, then you will not have seen Ni in a state close to heat after death. I wrote: "The examples I refer to, including the heat after death effects, were not a bit like that. They were macroscopic, far above the noise level. "Perhaps. Where is the beef (data)?" I already told you: it is confidential. I am sorry about that, but it isn't my fault. You have to take my word for it. If you don't want to take my word, fair enough, but then we will have nothing to discuss, because -- as I said going in -- the data is secret. There is no point in your asking for it repeatedly when you know I cannot provide it. The non-heat after death work was published by Cravens and if you need more data and you ask nicely he will give it to you. He gave me a ton. That's why I was able to include details about things like the mercury thermometer in my Infinite Energy report. (Needless to say, he reviewed that report before publication, to check for inaccuracies and misunderstandings.) "Is there, or is there not, a differential, i.e. a delta-T along the axis of convection flow?" No, emphatically not. Not in the outlet section of the tubes. I have looked for one carefully, and I never saw it. Or, to be precise: if there is a differential it is too small to detect using ordinary thermocouples, measuring to the nearest 0.1 deg C. I tried gently tapping and shaking the tubes to see if the temperature changed, because of stirring. I *have* seen differentials in improperly stirred tubes, in Gene Mallove's basement. Incidentally, the thermocouples in the most recent CETI cells have been oriented horizontally, as you can see in the ABC video, whereas previous ones were vertical. "We are talking about the temperature variation along the direction of the flow. We are NOT talking about variations transverse to the flow." Nope. Never seen 'em. Sorry. I've looked! Of course, if you go far enough, like 10 cm downstream from the outlet, the fluid starts to cool down measurably with a slow flow rate. That's a different story. If you go *upstream* 10 cm, to the inlet tube, then you get a whopping big temperature variation, but that doesn't count either! :-} "Please try to understand that this was a quasi-one-dimensional model and there is NO variation transverse to the flow." As I said, I wouldn't know a quasi-one-dimensional model if it bit me on the butt. If you have thermocouple readings you would like to report, I would love to hear them. How much did the temperature change when you tilted that tube? If you don't have instrument readings or you don't want to share them, let us drop the subject. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 09:54:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA27017 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 09:42:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA26980 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 09:42:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-218.austin.eden.com (net-1-218.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.218]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id LAA09866 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 11:42:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 11:42:11 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602181742.LAA09866@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: calorimetry/thermometers X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace asks: >This sounds really good. What thermometer well inner diameter would >accomodate one of these thermometers? It's close to 0.25"...I'll measure precisely Monday AM and report. >My TMS design objectves are to accomodate: Your plan sounds quite workable. It is interesting to see what diverse calorimetry strategies people come up with. As was discussed a while back when Martin Sevior & I came close to getting to test a genuine Patterson cell, I am building TMS's right into the end caps of the cell, using single thermistors in glass jackets. To check the calorimetric value thus obtained, the entire system (cell, electrolyte reservoir, and pump) will be enclosed in a well-stirred Newton's Law of Cooling calorimeter chamber. It is absolutely wonderful to know that the ersatz beads will be given a series of excellent and different chances to work. If a number of us get positive results under widely varying experimental conditions it will put this phenomena "on the map" in a hurry! Let's hear what the others that are getting beads are planning to do. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 10:05:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA02128 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 07:30:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix9.ix.netcom.com (ix9.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.9]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA02009 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 07:30:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix-hou2-14.ix.netcom.com by ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id HAA15961; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 07:28:44 -0800 Received: by ix-hou2-14.ix.netcom.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BAFDE3.7744A1A0@ix-hou2-14.ix.netcom.com>; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 09:28:30 -0600 Message-ID: <01BAFDE3.7744A1A0@ix-hou2-14.ix.netcom.com> From: Craig Haynie To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Cc: "'ccHaynie@ix.netcom.com'" Subject: vtx: An Important Political Question! Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 09:25:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BAFDE3.774C42C0" Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAFDE3.774C42C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All. This is my first post here, so hopefully it's getting to you. I'm worried about what I see happening now. It appears to me that we may = be at an important critical phase in the cold-fusion debate. It appears = that others are now trying to independently replicate the CETI device -- = Steve Jones at BYU; about 6 people on Vortex; and another 2 or so on SPF = -- yet, there doesn't appear to be a current, accepted protocol -- or = common method -- that these people are using. My best guess is that they = are trying to replicate their cells by using one or more of Patterson's = patents. Is this the best way to achieve the CETI effect? Wouldn't a more current = protocol from Dr. Dennis Cravens, be a better guide to replicating this = effect? My concern is that many of these independently replicated cells, = using older technology, which produce lower yields, may fail to account = for the various conventional explanations that have been used to explain = the cold-fusion effect in the past. I don't know Dr. Dennis Cravens, nor the People at CETI, but if my = argument makes sense, then it seems prudent that someone here more = in-touch with them, should call CETI or Dr. Cravens and ask them to = produce a common protocol for these experimenters to follow. It's beginning to look as if cold-fusion will get a 'second hearing'. If = the idea gets shut-down because those trying to replicate the device = don't have a proper method, then cold-fusion may not get another chance = in the foreseeable future. Does my argument make sense? Am I off-base here?=20 Craig Haynie ccHaynie@ix.netcom.com ---------- From: JOEFLYNN@delphi.com[SMTP:JOEFLYNN@delphi.com] Sent: Saturday, February 17, 1996 8:05 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: NOTE 02/14/96 01:16:00 Mark, I just returned from Boston, had a pleasant meeting with Gene Mollove re: CF. I would like to hear that EVERY lab can obtain the same results independent of CETI. I'm very openminded and do believe that, even though we don't like to admit it, physics is an infant in the grand scheme of things. If 100 x input is possible, we shouldn't wait for an explanation to put it in use but repeatability and accurate (all explantions explored) measurements are the interum replacement for understanding. Simply waiting to hear many labs achieve the same results. Further, even if CF were not the action for the reaction for 100 x input it would still be a magnificent discovery. 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Sun, 18 Feb 1996 12:01:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA05835 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 12:01:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadmm29292; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 15:00:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24945; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 12:00:46 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 292859110096049FEPRI; 18 Feb 1996 11:59:11 PST Message-Id: Date: 18 Feb 1996 11:59:11 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/18/96 11:59:27 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/18/96 00:35 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. Joe: I hate to be mysterious, but I haven't asked specific permission from this entity to put out this information. BUT, one of the entities, with strong academic contacts which has tested a Patterson cell has analyzed Input and output Electrolyte, during operation and AFTER a couple hundred hours of operation and found NO change in LiSO4 concentration to the From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 12:16:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA06060 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 12:02:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA06027 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 12:02:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadmm29331; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 15:01:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24951; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 12:01:46 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 503400120096049FEPRI; 18 Feb 1996 12:00:12 PST Message-Id: Date: 18 Feb 1996 12:00:12 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/18/96 12:00:34 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/18/96 00:35 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Toll-free numbers, Potapov. Sorry, hit wrong button... - No change of Li2SO4 concentration to the third decimal place. The cell ran in the 5 watt output, less than .1 watt input range. Volume of electrolyte less than 1 liter. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 12:17:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA05278 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 11:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA05247 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 11:58:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadml14718; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 14:57:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA10292; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 11:57:46 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 363456110096049FEPRI; 18 Feb 1996 11:56:11 PST Message-Id: Date: 18 Feb 1996 11:56:11 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Hugo, Lawrence, To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/18/96 11:56:33 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/18/96 07:57 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Hugo, Lawrence, Norman: Good work! I was beginning to wonder if London is so inscrutable to people that even the locals dispair of trying to figure it out! However, to let you in on a "dirty" secret, we have an area within 5 miles of me which consists of an ameboe like lake splattered over 200 square miles of countryside. The "land lobes" extending into the lake have been populated in one way form or another for 100 years. The DEVELOPMENT, however, was not coordinated or square gridded....Thus, it took me over an hour to find a house of a friend from my Church yesterday. One of the key roads going in had 6 (YES SIX!) Name changes in a mile's stretch. (One at every interesecti on!) So I don't think I can whine too much now about the seemingly random distribution of London streets, when I live one and near the same thing in the US! MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 12:37:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA10955 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 12:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA10901 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 12:24:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from delta.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA27707; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 21:23:45 +0100 Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 21:23:45 +0100 Message-Id: <9602182023.AA27707@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: A request to M.Mandeville,H.Heffner,D.Britz X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -M.Mandeville mentioned,in a previous message,the existence of a manuscript of R.Monti on transmutations.Have you informations if you could enable me to read this manuscript? - to H.Heffner : you mentioned the possibility to give me help in finding= works on the transmutations published by vortex(?!) or by Internet? May you help= me? -dr. Dieter Britz,I know that you prepare (?!) a bibliografy of titles or=20 papers in relation (?!) to vortex-l.May you give me some indications how to obtaine= papers where the experimentation and the obtained results were exposed in detail? Thank You. Sincerely.Elio Conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 13:14:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA18368 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 12:58:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA18327 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 12:58:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-144.austin.eden.com (net-1-144.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.144]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id OAA19368 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 14:58:18 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 14:58:18 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602182058.OAA19368@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Li2SO4 conc X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >No change of Li2SO4 concentration to the third decimal place. The cell ran >in the 5 watt output, less than .1 watt input range. Volume of electrolyte >less than 1 liter. MDH They must have continuously added water to make up for the water dissociated by the electrolysis, right? Otherwise the Li2SO4 conc would climb steadily...wouldn't it? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 13:28:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA21671 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:12:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunny.bahnhof.se (root@sunny.bahnhof.se [193.44.91.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA21611 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:12:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from pppnode18.bahnhof.se (pppnode18 [193.44.91.118]) by sunny.bahnhof.se (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA29951 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 22:11:04 +0100 (MET) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 22:11:04 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199602182111.WAA29951@sunny.bahnhof.se> X-Sender: grappo@sunny.bahnhof.se (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: grappo@bahnhof.se (gudmund rapp) Subject: vtx: calorimetry and philosophy etc Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear vortexians, I have been, and I am, a grateful and interested, mostly passive, member of this network for some six months. By birth, I am extremely curious and want to find out if this OU stuff really works. Not being an expert myself in any discipline, I have some 35 years of experience in listening to so called experts in avionics and aircraft technology. Having studied some 5 megabytes of information on this network, I am convinced that OU gadgets will materialise very shortly. Reading all messages about calorimetry and wattage computed in 3-phase or 1-phase, an old saying that we developped in the aerospace field a long time ago, comes to mind: "Why make life difficult, with a little more effort you will make it impossible?! 1. Regarding calorimetry, somebody made the remark, Scott ?, that an electrical heater had an efficiency of about 100%. The efficiency, whatever it is, must be very easily established for an elecric heater. So why not make the following simple experiment where you do not have to consider the orientation of things because they will be the same, you dont have to consider the rotation or gravitation of the earth, you just have to measure the difference in temperature between two similar experimental set ups. Make two set ups according ro the CETI demonstration arrangements. In one of the set ups you substitute an electrical heater for the "CF"-cell. Feed booth systems with the same wattage. Measure the temperature difference between the two systems. Is this too simple? I said I was an ignoramus in these and many other things. 2. There has been a lot of talk about input wattage calculated according to 1 or 3-phase. Is it really possible that a laboratory in 1996 could make a mistake in this respect? PS. Tomorrow my wife and I will leave this cold country for a week in the sun. Look forward to your comments if you think it worth while. Best regards Gudmund Rapp From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 13:43:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA25540 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:30:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA25505 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:30:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA00487; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 16:28:41 -0500 Date: 18 Feb 96 16:27:35 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Boring straight lines Message-ID: <960218212734_100433.1541_BHG37-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Mark Hugo comments on ungridded streets. Mark, we tried straight roads two thousand years ago, we've progressed since. You have to have a copy of the paperback, "London A-Z" - after that it's easy. Is it not kind of Norman to help out like this? Such are the benefits of lists like this - or rather the people who comprise them. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 15:02:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA14315 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 14:49:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA14133 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 14:48:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA03385; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 17:47:24 -0500 Date: 18 Feb 96 17:45:54 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Second chance for CF? Message-ID: <960218224554_100433.1541_BHG34-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:vortex Craig comments: "My concern is that many of these independently replicated cells, using older technology, which produce lower yields, may fail to account for the various conventional explanations that have been used to explain the cold-fusion effect in the past. I don't know Dr. Dennis Cravens, nor the People at CETI, but if my argument makes sense, then it seems prudent that someone here more in-touch with them, should call CETI or Dr. Cravens and ask them to produce a common protocol for these experimenters to follow." Perhaps those closer to the action might comment on what seems a fair point? "It's beginning to look as if cold-fusion will get a 'second hearing'. If the idea gets shut-down because those trying to replicate the device don't have a proper method, then cold-fusion may not get another chance in the foreseeable future." Thankfully, all does not rest on CETI. There are too many similar systems breaking out all over, and some of the corporate stuff at Toyota, Mitsubishi or Fiat (or others we don't know much about) may surface. The CETI device just happens to be the best performer and most reliable system out in the open (for the moment). And don't forget that at least one university (Illinois) has not merely replicated, but replicated from scratch with its own beads (admittedly, there is apparently some non-disclosure here). So, CETI is just part of a wider movement. Second chances are not really at issue. Naturally, we'd like such things as the recent ABC broadcasts would be the first hint of the long-awaited Great Turn-Around, but if we have to wait for products-on-the-market, then that's what we'll have to do. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 17:46:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA03877 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 17:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA03839 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 17:35:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadni21420; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 20:35:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20502; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 17:35:46 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 523734170096049FEPRI; 18 Feb 1996 17:34:17 PST Message-Id: Date: 18 Feb 1996 17:34:17 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Li2SO4 conc To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/18/96 17:34:36 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/18/96 13:33 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Li2SO4 conc About the Li2SO4 concentration climbing, I guess I didn't feel that I had to mention that. Of course the electrolysis loss was accounted for. (But please note, at the low power input/current input realm, even after a couple hundred hours, the electrolysis loss is minimal.) MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 21:02:59 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA20768 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 18:37:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA20694 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 18:37:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA02608; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 21:37:30 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05997; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 21:32:30 -0500 Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 21:32:30 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602190232.AA05997@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Possible Positional Error Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> writes: on Subject: vtx: Potential Positional Effects =jr I asked Mitch a couple of time whether he performed an experiment to check =jr this hypothesis. I am sorry, but I still do not understand the answer: "I already answered this as follows, Jed. 'In the scientific method, hypotheses are tested and the results examined. As a result of the experiment(s) used to test the hypothesis, new hypotheses are generated, and as a result, the scientific method moves forward . . .'" =jr I read that twice before, but it does not answer my question. Let me try just =jr one more time, because I am curious about this: Did you perform a physical =jr experiment? You appear to have either ignored the two sentences from my post that answered this, or have not caught up in your posts. Those two sentences which were prior to what you quote. The sentences said: "The answer is yes. I already answered this as follows, Jed. In the scientific method, hypotheses are tested and the results examined. As a result of the experiment(s) used to test the hypothesis, new hypotheses are generated, and as a result, the scientific method moves forward. In science, those tests of hypotheses can be theoretical or experimental. Theoretical work too, when they are grounded in science. A theoretical experiment led to the discovery of special relativity." Apparently you disagree with this. Many theoreticians would be out of work if your attitude was generally held. ===================================== =jr I mentioned that there have been two highly reliable reports of massive heat =jr after death from nickel, lasting for extended periods of time. Mitch responds: "Right. Undiscussable. They are therefore not really "reports". I remain open-minded about this however." =jr Well, they are reports because I just reported them Right here! I can discuss =jr them a little bit, just as I can discuss the tile burning experiments. It is a =jr real shame this kind of information is restricted, but that is not my fault. =jr You better remain open minded because my information is golden. Perhaps. These are not reports yet, but only rumor at this time. This audience remains open for details, if they exist. ===================================== =jr And if I do =jr say so myself, my information always is golden or I would not say a word about =jr it in public. You get the straight dope from me, and those who ignore it have =jr all been mistaken in the past. No response needed to hubric overdose. ;-)X ===================================== =jr Regarding heat after death, Mitch writes: "No reports in nickel. If you have them, call me, or direct me." =jr I just did direct you! Twice in a row! In two previous messages I told you =jr that groups have seen high sigma heat after death results. Rumor until cited, and not reports. Reports include proceedings, papers, and perhaps even some of those papers or preprints passed around. Some might limit it to only select journals, but given the obstructions to publication in this field, the definition ought be relaxed somewhat. ====================================== "Is there, or is there not, a differential, i.e. a delta-T along the axis of convection flow?" =jr No, emphatically not. Not in the outlet section of the tubes. I have looked =jr for one carefully, and I never saw it. Or, to be precise: if there is a =jr differential it is too small to detect using ordinary thermocouples, measuring =jr to the nearest 0.1 deg C. If your signal along the flow axis in only a mere 0.1 C, then you had better change your arrangement. Also, if you sit down and think about you will realize - eventually - that there is a differential along the axis of convection flow --- it is called (at the minimum) the input and output. =========================== =jr Incidentally, the thermocouples in the most recent CETI cells have been =jr oriented horizontally, as you can see in the ABC video, whereas previous ones =jr were vertical. Jed, I specifically stated this had NOTHING to do with the directions of the thermocouples (which does not rule out there may be variation there, too). We are talking about the temperature variation along the direction of the flow. Why do you keep repeating this? ======================================= "We are talking about the temperature variation along the direction of the flow. We are NOT talking about variations transverse to the flow." =jr "Nope. Never seen 'em. Sorry. I've looked! " If you see NO variation between then input and output, then where do the numbers come from that you use in the equation which presumably generates these generated heat levels which you report? Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 18 23:37:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id XAA18230 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 23:23:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from bos1g.delphi.com (SYSTEM@bos1g.delphi.com [192.80.63.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA18184 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 23:22:53 -0800 (PST) From: JOEFLYNN@delphi.com Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V5.0-5 #10880) id <01I1DQEANNHC9EHJ1Z@delphi.com> for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 02:22:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 02:22:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: vtx: soup & suppose To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <01I1DQEANNHE9EHJ1Z@delphi.com> X-VMS-To: INTERNET"vortex-l@eskimo.com" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitch said Because CF is another physical manifestation of nuclear physics and material science, that is quite probably consistent with physical law as we know it. Joe Flynn said If CF is possible how do we know for sure that every chemical reaction produces ash. We can't be openminded on one front and and not the other. Mitch said Because CF is another physical manifestation of nuclear physics and material science, that is quite probably consistent with physical law as we know it. "Consistent" is subjective; hot fusion researchers would say that if fusion is present we would probably melt down the neighborhood. Let's suppose that CF has a chemical phase and a nuclear phase. This is "suppose" so let's say the chemical phase produces a very (n times very) minute quantity of ash and this ash is the exact reciepe for nuclear soup. Now let's suppose the soup is consumed immediately by fusion on a very small (n times very and n times small) scale. If the cell produces soup very slowly and in very minute amounts and we have a minute nuclear reaction (minute to the -alot) that consumes all of the available soup (fuel). The reactions could be spaced very far apart in time, since the cell is not producing much heat relative to hot fusion. Now if the soup is formed in increments so that the fusion is not continual everyone is happy. The hot fusion guy knows when the fuel is consumed the reaction stops (until we have more soup) and he knows its really hot fusion technology after all. All the physists are happy cause we know where the by-products of fusion came from, and the chemist finally knows where his ash went. I'm all supposed out so I think I'll take my ash to bed. Joe Flynn From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 02:20:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA01976 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 02:10:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA01917 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 02:10:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamltndt.cias.com (hamltndt.cais.com [205.252.26.60]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.10/8.6.5) with SMTP id FAA11816 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 05:10:27 -0500 Message-ID: <31284D1A.6DF8@cais.com> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 05:12:42 -0500 From: Danny and Terry Hamilton X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0GoldB1 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Possible Positional Error References: <199602190232.AA05997@world.std.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: MITCH SWARTZ WRITES: > Jed, if you spent more time developing a broader scientific background, >you would find that calibration is required for ALL calorimeters. >Caveat emptor.and later > Apparently you disagree with this. Many theoreticians would be out of >work if your attitude was generally held. Just a comment. This discussion starts looking like spf. The reason a lot of us came to vortex was to get away from the non-productive slamming that was going on. I'm sure these comments aren't meant as slams, but they sound like it to me. -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Danny and Terry Hamilton hamltndt@cais.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 02:36:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA08354 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 02:24:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA08287 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 02:23:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-32.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-32.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.32]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA10242 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 21:21:32 +1100 (EST) From: rvanspaa@netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: calorimetry/thermometers Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 11:25:36 GMT Organization: Improving Message-Id: <3128133a.25784486@mail.netspace.net.au> References: <199602180614.AAA05849@natashya.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <199602180614.AAA05849@natashya.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/16.182 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 18 Feb 1996 00:14:22 -0600 (CST), Scott Little wrote: [snip] >Mike Schaffer: I was intrigue by your report that you measured less than >expected gas production from your cell at low power indicating some >recombination. I have made fairly careful gas measurements on two >completely different CF experiments (one was D/Pd and the other was H/Ni) >and, in both cases, I observed about 1.06 times the amount of gas expected >from the electrolysis current alone. I'm pretty sure the excess was water >vapor, created in the relatively warm cell. It might be worth while drying the gas and measuring it again, at known temperature and pressure etc. More dry gas than can be accounted for by the electrolysis current could be a sign of ionizing radiation. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 02:41:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA08329 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 02:24:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA08300 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 02:24:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-32.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-32.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.32]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA10250 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 21:21:35 +1100 (EST) From: rvanspaa@netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: calorimetry/thermometers Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 11:25:41 GMT Organization: Improving Message-Id: <3128140b.25993585@mail.netspace.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/16.182 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 18 Feb 1996 03:21:42 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >Scott Little wrote: >> >>Horace, I have satisfied my "accurate thermometer" desire by purchasing a >>600mm long mercury-glass unit from Cole-Parmer (OMEGA has 'em too) that is >>graduated in tenths of a degree C and is claimed to be accurate to 0.1 C. >>Actually, I bought two of them and I am please to report that they agree to >>within about 0.03C. The price is $70. Range is 0-100C. > >This sounds really good. What thermometer well inner diameter would >accomodate one of these thermometers? Since these are glass bulb thermometers, it would be really nice if you could arrange for the bulb to be placed directly in the flow of the liquid. This may create some turbulence, and would provide an almost unassailable temperature measurement. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 02:56:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id CAA18221 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 02:43:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA18184 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 02:43:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id FAA02892; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 05:41:49 -0500 Date: 19 Feb 96 05:39:39 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: Possible Positional Error Message-ID: <960219103938_100060.173_JHB139-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Danny & Terry said: >> I'm sure these comments aren't meant as slams, but they sound like it to me. << I think tempers are getting a little strained due to the great volume of conjecture forced on us all by the lack of "professionally published" reports dealing with the latest results. No reflection on the excellent reporting by Jed and the others, but the purist scientists among us are bound to get pernickerty when they see lay-type statements about efficiency and probability - whatever. We have all been subjected to the nerve-wracking now-you-see-it-now-you-don't games of all the main players. Probably the only exception is Griggs, who has been completely open and cooperative all through. One day we will know the truth ;-) Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 03:21:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA00535 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 03:09:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA00507 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 03:09:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id GAA11331; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 06:08:33 -0500 Date: 19 Feb 96 06:07:09 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: calorimetry/thermometers Message-ID: <960219110709_100060.173_JHB38-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At the risk of further complicating and confusing the calorimetry issue can I throw in some info from my own experience in temp. measurement, admittedly in gas, but still valid I think in liquids. We found that we obtained the best mixing by flowing through triangular orifices. So instead of using reversing turbine blades, which might still perpetuate lamination, it might be better to have a series of baffle plates with randomly pierced triangular holes to give a more homogeneous outflow. It would also be cheaper! I'm having difficulty with Mitch's paper on temperature diffs with vertical flow, even after reading his paper!! Does he mean that bouyancy due to s.g. changes falsifies the true velocity and therefore the calculated heat output? Or is there some more esoteric agency at work here - wot I have missed? Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 03:22:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA29212 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 03:07:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA29120 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 03:06:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [199.165.120.43] ([199.165.120.43]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA09668 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 02:00:11 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 02:11:09 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: A request to M.Mandeville,H.Heffner,D.Britz Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Prof Conte wrote: >- to H.Heffner : you mentioned the possibility to give me help in finding works >on the transmutations published by vortex(?!) or by Internet? May you help me? I offered to help with any internet problems you might have in getting to Dr. Dieter Britz's wonderful bibliography, which has many of references to transmutations. I can simply email it to you if you would like. There is a lot of material. I don't know of any such reference for vortex. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 03:49:39 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA13411 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 03:37:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA13303 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 03:37:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [199.165.120.43] ([199.165.120.43]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA09726 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 02:31:08 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 02:42:00 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: soup & suppose Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [snip] All the physists are happy cause we know >where the by-products of fusion came from, and the chemist >finally knows where his ash went. I'm all supposed out so I >think I'll take my ash to bed. > >Joe Flynn The missing piece in all this is the nuclear part. Any known type of nuclear reaction occuring that accounts for the wattages observed in CF experiments, regardless of what soup makes them come about, involves individual event energy levels abudantly observable and which summed to account for the wattage produced are probably lethal. On the other hand, no chemical soup exists or can be made that has the energy either. There is no combination of the two that accounts for the observed energy. A pound of potatoes and a pound of carrots can not make a ton of vegetables, whether you have a few carrot peels or potato peels or not. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 04:30:23 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA00238 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 04:17:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA00164 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 04:17:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [199.165.120.43] ([199.165.120.44]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA09845 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 03:10:59 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 03:21:48 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: calorimetry/thermometers Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >On Sun, 18 Feb 1996 03:21:42 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: > >>Scott Little wrote: >>> >>>Horace, I have satisfied my "accurate thermometer" desire by purchasing a >>>600mm long mercury-glass unit from Cole-Parmer (OMEGA has 'em too) that is >>>graduated in tenths of a degree C and is claimed to be accurate to 0.1 C. >>>Actually, I bought two of them and I am please to report that they agree to >>>within about 0.03C. The price is $70. Range is 0-100C. >> >>This sounds really good. What thermometer well inner diameter would >>accomodate one of these thermometers? >Since these are glass bulb thermometers, it would be really nice if >you could arrange for the bulb to be placed directly in the flow of >the liquid. This may create some turbulence, and would provide an >almost unassailable temperature measurement. >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk This has a number of problems for me: 1. Such a measurement to be combined with thermister and/or thermocouple measurements is assailable based on laminar flow, elevation and convection, electrical cross talk, unreliable insulation and seals, bubbles, momentary instabilities at time of data sampling (i.e. lack of stability), hot spot, ambient heat loss, and the "one of the thermometers must be first in the stream, thus affecting the measurements of the others" arguments. These are some of the reasons for the TMS concept in the first place. All that is eliminated with a $10 gadget. 2. The glass thermometer would represent a major conductive heat loss source for the dewar, making it difficult to achieve the objective of all the devices reading the same. It would be possible to insulate all 60 cm. of thermometer, but the results would still not be as good. The mercury thermometers will ultimately just be a backup. Nobody will stand around observing them 24 hrs. a day for weeks. 3. I have 10 measuring stations. At $70 a piece for thermometers permanently sealed into the measuring stations that's $700. 4. I can do that kind of measurement during calibration of the TMS, with one thermometer upstream and one down. 5. I hope to have a much more accurate probe, at some point, that can be put into the well for validations and cross checking. 6. The TMS concept could help make a really cheap but reliable starter/demo system for students by combining pre-calibrated thermistor based TMS's with a calculator sized microprocessor. It would be nice to provide an electrically insulated thermometer well to give extra alternatives. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 04:50:04 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA06196 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 04:30:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA06128 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 04:30:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-16.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-16.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.16]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA21196 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 23:27:38 +1100 (EST) From: rvanspaa@netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: soup & suppose Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 13:31:38 GMT Organization: Improving Message-Id: <312863a4.46375539@mail.netspace.net.au> References: <01I1DQEANNHE9EHJ1Z@delphi.com> In-Reply-To: <01I1DQEANNHE9EHJ1Z@delphi.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/16.182 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 19 Feb 1996 02:22:47 -0500 (EST), JOEFLYNN@delphi.com wrote: [snip] >"Consistent" is subjective; hot fusion researchers would say >that if fusion is present >we would probably melt down the neighborhood. >Let's suppose that CF has a chemical phase and a nuclear phase. >This is "suppose" so let's say the chemical phase produces a >very (n times very) minute quantity of ash and this ash is the >exact reciepe for nuclear soup. Now let's suppose the soup is >consumed immediately by fusion on a very small (n times very >and n times small) scale. If the cell produces soup very slowly >and in very minute amounts and we have a minute nuclear >reaction (minute to the -alot) that consumes all of the >available soup (fuel). The reactions could be spaced very far >apart in time, since the cell is not producing much heat >relative to hot fusion. Now if the soup is formed in increments >so that the fusion is not continual everyone is happy. The hot >fusion guy knows when the fuel is consumed the reaction stops >(until we have more soup) and he knows its really hot fusion >technology after all. All the physists are happy cause we know >where the by-products of fusion came from, and the chemist >finally knows where his ash went. I'm all supposed out so I >think I'll take my ash to bed. > >Joe Flynn > Where the fuel comes from is not really the problem that the physicists are having. Nor are they worried about chain reactions. Most of the objections fall into 1 of 2 categories: 1) All known nuclear reactions generate some form of ionizing radiation. (CF experimenters don't find any, except in a few cases). 2) Current theory holds that positive charges always repel one another, yet in order for fusion to take place, positively charged nuclei need to get very close together. This involves overcoming their mutual repulsion, otherwise known as the Coulomb barrier. (The Coulomb is the unit of electric charge). It is generally supposed that the only effective way of doing this is by heating the nuclear fuel to very high temperatures such that very occasionally one nucleus can "quantum tunnel" through the Coulomb barrier, and fusion will eventuate. Therefore any successful CF theory involving fusion will need to overcome both of these obstacles. Various such theories have been proposed, (see the archives of SPF) over the past few years, however none of these appear to be taken seriously enough by mainstream scientists to convince them that further investigation is warrented. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 05:18:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA22059 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 05:05:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA22021 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 05:05:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA19897; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:05:09 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14384; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:02:57 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:02:57 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602191302.AA14384@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: calorimetry/thermometers Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Norman, it means that bouyancy vertical heat transport may be counted as conventional convectional heat transport. Hence, the calculation of excess will be too large by that amount. Best wishes. Mitchell From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 05:19:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA22007 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 05:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA21961 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 05:05:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA19889; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:05:07 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13584; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:00:06 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:00:06 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602191300.AA13584@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Possible Positional Error References: <199602190232.AA05997@world.std.com> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: good point. but if truth does not start, there will be no field here given any respect. best wishes. Mitchell Swartz p.s. do you work in this field? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 05:44:44 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA01361 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 05:26:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA01326 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 05:26:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA21268; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:26:02 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19816; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:23:06 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:23:06 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602191323.AA19816@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: soup & suppose Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk (rvanspaa@netspace.net.au) wrote: Subject: Re: vtx: soup & suppose =rs "Where the fuel comes from is not really the problem that the =rs physicists are having. Nor are they worried about chain reactions. =rs Most of the objections fall into 1 of 2 categories: =rs 1) All known nuclear reactions generate some form of ionizing =rs radiation. Beta decay. Also all known nuclear reactions before cold fusion did not involve the ENTIRE solid, but could treat the nucleons separately (except for Mossbauer systems) ========================================= =rs 2) Current theory holds that positive charges always repel one =rs another, yet in order for fusion to take place, positively charged =rs nuclei need to get very close together. This involves overcoming their =rs mutual repulsion, otherwise known as the Coulomb barrier. (The Coulomb =rs is the unit of electric charge). It is generally supposed that the =rs only effective way of doing this is by heating the nuclear fuel to =rs very high temperatures such that very occasionally one nucleus can =rs "quantum tunnel" through the Coulomb barrier, and fusion will =rs eventuate. You are considering the simple case of two body collisions. That is NOT how cold fusion works. When you have multibodies fusing by whatever means, that condensation is probably best not modeled with two-body collision theory. and there is no reason that it should. ========================================= =rs Various such theories have been proposed, (see the archives of SPF) =rs over the past few years, however none of these appear to be taken =rs seriously enough by mainstream scientists to convince them that =rs further investigation is warrented. There is obstruction to publication. Many papers have been submitted, but the cold fusion coverup in the English-speaking countries has continued for the time being. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 08:02:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA13466 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 07:44:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA13425 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 07:44:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id KAA03051; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 10:43:25 -0500 Date: 19 Feb 96 10:40:53 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: WWW stuff Message-ID: <960219154053_100433.1541_BHG44-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A To:Vortex I note in Fortean Times 85, the following WWW info: "December 4, 1995 will be remembered in history. On this date a group of scientists witnessed a demonstration of the 1.3kW steady-state 'Cold Fusion' reactor which produces 960 times more thermal energy than the electric energy consumed." http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/rei/CFdir/CFhome.html (Isn't that MIT?) Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 09:23:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA27642 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:59:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA27568 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:59:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadpr20605; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 11:57:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA13789; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:57:58 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 043656080096050FEPRI; 19 Feb 1996 08:56:08 PST Message-Id: Date: 19 Feb 1996 08:56:08 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: WWW stuff To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/19/96 08:56:34 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/19/96 08:02 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: WWW stuff Interesting comment on the WWW. Does put quite the charge on "us" to follow up on this. BUT, also indicates the "establishment" is getting nervous. I am continuously amazed on how art imitates life. "Toto, toto, come back here!!!" "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.... pay no attention to the CF 'nuts'...." Need I say more. - Chris---Is Norman able to stop by the Poynder's place and pick up the device? Again, I caution him---he should call--after 7:00 PM on a weeknight and ask to talk to Steven. He should show up there only after 7:00 PM on a weeknight, as Steven knows where we stuffed away the device. (Steven is one of several "boyfriends" of Tracy, the gal that runs the place. However, Tracy is somewhat unstable and not worth getting tangled up with. Steven, aside from his romantically clouded judgement, is otherwise a normal person, and you will be able to deal quite readily with him.) - YOU WILL ENJOY THE "DEVICE". With a Radio Shack VOM capable of doing .1mV, some plywood/Aluminum foil, carbon black cloth, etc. you should be ableto design a test volume which would allow you to get a good handle on the amount of energy coming from an intest thermal radiation source. - MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 09:51:34 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA20310 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:23:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA20262 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:23:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id LAA10022; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 11:21:55 -0500 Date: 19 Feb 96 11:20:13 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Possible Positional Error Message-ID: <960219162013_72240.1256_EHB72-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I mentioned that the thermocouples in the most recent CETI cells have been oriented horizontally, whereas previous ones were vertical. Mitch responded: "Jed, I specifically stated this had NOTHING to do with the directions of the thermocouples . . . We are talking about the temperature variation along the direction of the flow. Why do you keep repeating this?" Yes, I meant the flow as well. I put a grainy close-up photo of this on John's home page. Actually, the TC is located right where the flow does a 90 degree turn, which makes it both vertical and horizontal I suppose. I asked a simple, direct question: "Did you actually run water through a tube and measure the temperature?" meaning, of course, an experiment with "with test tubes, water, and thermocouples." In response Mitch reposted for the fourth time a bunch of verbiage about the history of science which does not begin to answer the question as far as I can tell. I also asked Mitch to name names and tell us who "did no initial calibration." He has refused to answer. I consider this impolite and inappropriate to this forum. If we were gathered at a live scientific colloquium, seminar, or symposium, and I raised my hand and asked: "Are those graphs from measured thermocouple data, or is that a computer simulation?" -- I would expect a straight, simple, direct answer. That may be a stupid question. It may be naive. The answer may be self-evident (especially to those who can read the graphs, unlike me). But in a scientific discussion an honest question deserves a prompt answer. Mitch's behavior should be politely censured by the readers of this forum, if we want to maintain a productive, scientific discussion and avoid the s.p.f. syndrome. A live scientific discussion would have a panel discussion chairman, and if it was me I would interrupt at this point and say, pointedly: "Dr. Swartz will please answer the question, and then we will move on the next paper." I think the secret to making e-mail as productive as other forms of professional information exchange is to abide by the same rules of behavior as you would in person. I would not expect anyone to act the way Mitch has in a live exchange. Enough of that. I will not comment on the positional error hypothesis again. We will move on to the next paper. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 10:41:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA06653 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 09:49:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA06614 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 09:48:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 09:48:51 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer@gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199602191748.JAA06614@mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 9:48:23 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: calorimetry/thermometers Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote >Mike Schaffer: I was intrigue by your report that you measured less than >expected gas production from your cell at low power indicating some >recombination. I have made fairly careful gas measurements on two >completely different CF experiments (one was D/Pd and the other was H/Ni) >and, in both cases, I observed about 1.06 times the amount of gas expected >from the electrolysis current alone. I'm pretty sure the excess was water >vapor, created in the relatively warm cell. We measure gas volume out at room temperature. I didn't think about water vapor, but will check it. Michael J. Schaffer michael.schaffer@gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From neotech-approval@europe.std.com Mon Feb 19 15:25:57 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA09736 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 15:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA19904; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 18:14:48 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA19897; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 18:14:45 -0500 Received: from shore.shore.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18527; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 18:08:32 -0500 Received: from xbn.UUCP by shore.shore.net with UUCP id AA22709 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for neotech@world.std.com); Mon, 19 Feb 1996 18:08:32 -0500 Received: by xbn.shore.net (MailGate 0.25 mg@ear.anpe.br) Mon, 19 Feb 1996 17:59:34 EST5EDT Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 16:55:50 EST5EDT From: Glenda Stocks Message-Id: Organization: SearchNet HeadQuarters To: neotech@world.std.com Subject: Newman Energy X-Mailer: MailGate 0.25 Unregistered Sender: neotech-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: neotech@europe.std.com Status: RO X-Status: -> SearchNet's neotech Mailing List -- Area : I-UFO --------------------------------------------( LOSTINTS.SU1 )--- Msg# 93 Date: 16 Feb 96 22:17:30 From: Gary Depietro Read: No Replied: No To: All Mark: Subj: EVERYONE READ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where else but in the UFO echo would you find something like this? Check out his Internet Web site. "On Thursday, August 10, 1995, Joseph Newman demonstrated his newest production model of his motor/generator: From 8:00AM to 8:00PM- and attached to a Grainger Reciprocating Pump-The Newman Motor/ Generator pumped 1 gallon of water per minute at 12 PSI at the Lucedale, Mississippi City Park. The voltage source was a local alternating current connection to the Newman Motor/Generator through a conventional house watt meter. When a conventional motor was operated on this system the house watt meter proceeded to turn, indicating that external electrical energy was being consumed. During the entire 12 hours that the Newman Motor/Generator pumped water, the house watt meter did not mvoe. Morever, for the entire 12 hour period the Newman Motor/Generator ran cool. The news media, city officials and representatives of the local power station observed and corroborated these results. This technology is ready to go forward into the future." .......................................................................... D Area: ELECTRONICS DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD Msg#: 82 Date: 02-15-96 17:46 From: Gary Depietro Read: Yes Replied: No To: All Mark: Subj: NEWMAN UPDATE READ! DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD As many of you know, I recently posted information about Joseph Newman's generator. I compiled a list of questions and sent it off to them. I'd like to share the responses with you: Q: What is the physical size of the Newman Generator and what type of power output can be expected? 1) Prototypes have ranged in size from c. 5 lbs. to over 15,000 lbs. The largest unit produced back-emf in excess of 100,000 watts. Q: Assuming someone wanted to produce a unit capable of powering a normal size home, what would the costs be? 2) Depends upon the configuration. Preliminary estimates place construction costs in the range of $3,000-$4,000 p/unit with retail price from $7,000-10,000. Of course, with mass production, these costs are expected to change. Q: Give me a little more info on the output of the Newman Generator 3) & 4) Output: since the unit operates as a motor/generator, one will obtain torque as well as DC output. The torque can be used directly for useful work, or can be used to power a conventional generator. We received a recent videotape from a mechanically-inclined individual in Phila., PA. This individual constructed a successful Newman Motor/Generator from having read the book -- we did not even know this individual. We have reports of additional machines being constructed in other parts of the country. The videotape and the book are available from Joseph Newman Publishing Co. Q: Is the Newman Generator hard to construct? There was even a girl in Pasadena (8 years old) that built a small Newman Motor/Generator and won 1st place in her school science fair. Of course, the fact that her father was an electrical engineer probably gave her an edge!! Thank you. Evan Soul=E9 Director of Information Newman Energy Products P.S. We are most interested at this stage in locating individuals across the country who would be interested in establishing manufacturing of this technology. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ END...................................................................... Like most of you, anything new and interesting in the ELECTRONICS arena interests me. In the late 1800's there was a man who was treated much the way Newman is being treated today. Fortunately, he never gave up. His name was Edison and we all know the rest of that story. As I get more information I will keep you posted. ... "Made in the U.S.A." Looks nice, doesn't it? ......................................................................... Visit Newmans Web page on the Internet !!!!!!!! http://home.earthlink.net/~josephnewman Evan R. Soule Jr. can be contacted at josephnewman@earthlink.net Phone 504-524-3063 Their Address: Newman Energy Products Route 1 Box 52 Lucedale, MS 39452 (601)-947-7147 ... My "Doctor" told me "pain builds charachter" shezzzz! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] --- Proboard/Fastecho/InterMail * Origin: The P.I.T.S. BBS = Orange City, Fl = 6 Nodes = 904-774-6577 (1:3618/12) ############################################### # SearchNet HeadQuarters - XBN MailGate # # Send HELP to help@xbn.shore.net # # Send INFO to info@xbn.shore.net # # Send LIST to listserv@xbn.shore.net # # SearchNet/Orvotron WWW HomePage # # http://world.std.com/~snet/ # ############################################### -> Posted by: Glenda Stocks From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 15:55:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA10500 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 15:29:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA10455 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 15:29:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA11491; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 18:16:03 -0500 Date: 19 Feb 96 18:15:01 EST From: Dean Miller <75110.3417@compuserve.com> To: vortex list Subject: Re: vtx: Possible Positional Error Message-ID: <960219231500_75110.3417_CHK49-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Danny,(Terry?) >> Just a comment. This discussion starts looking like spf. The reason a lot of us came to vortex was to get away from the non-productive slamming that was going on. I'm sure these comments aren't meant as slams, but they sound like it to me. << I fully agree. Other places I frequent through my modem have a rule that says 'you may blast other people's ideas, but not the people having the ideas.' Denigrating and individual, even by implication, is very distasteful to me and gives me the impression of immaturity in thinking. IMO, if the individual has to be attacked, then the attacker has a very weak argument. Dean -- from Des Moines From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 16:29:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA20220 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 16:17:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA20178 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 16:16:46 -0800 (PST) From: RMCarrell@aol.com Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA10632 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:14:56 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:14:56 -0500 Message-ID: <960219191455_426570486@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: calorimetry and philosophy etc Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mr. Rapp, I will try to help. The difficulty with just reading Vortel-l or s.p.f is that you get pieces of arguments were the parties share knowledge or assumptions which are not spelled out as in a tutorial. Comparing tests using a resistive heater and "process X" is of course the obvious one and was used by Pons & Fleischmann in their tests. In many test the power level is low and a whole host of questions arise about the accuracy of the measurements and the validity of the calibration. The flow calorimiter used by CETI means simply measuring the temperature difference between the fluid flowing into the cell and that flowing out of the cell, and the rate of fluid flow. If the temperature measurement devices are accurate, the calculation is very straigtforward and no secondary cell is really needed. The CETI demonstrations produce output heat which is so great, and so much greater than the electrical energy driving the cell, that quibbles about calibration are academic. In the early days of aviation, I am sure there were arguments about whether this or that machine "really flew". Even the Wright brothers didn't stay aloft very long first time, and one could say they really had a glider. But there is no argument watching a 747 take off. The discussion about single or three phase power specifically refer to some measurements of a room heating system manufactured in Moldova, which purports to be over-unity. The key element of the system was imported to the US for tests, which did not show any over-unity performance. Yet the systems are sold in quantity in Russia. Some recent data suggest that the devices are overy unity, but the key question is the electric power consumed. The electric power input is substantial, driving a motor. It would be a reasonable practice to use three phase power at a specific voltage and amperage to drive the motor. Common knowledge of three phase motor performance with such input would lead to estimation A about the mechanical power into the system's pump. If the power and motor were single phase, the estimated mechanical power would be B. Calculations using A show no over-unity perfomance, as found in the US. Calculations using B show over-unity performance. The participants in the discussion don't have the essential information. Unfortunately, missing information is common in the Vortex and the s.p.f discussions. This leads to a great deal of heated arguments. Look at the postings near your original in the Vortex output. You will find an argument between Mitchell Swartz and Jed Rothwell, who are really on the same side of the general issue of over-unity. Jed, as a journalist and associate editor of Infinite Energy, has made it his business to be on good terms with the major players and has access to proprietary information. Mitchell Swartz publishes a newsletter, among other things, and has scientific training. Jed is an honest observer but is self-educated in the physical sciences. For my part, I'm a retired engineer who is having a lot of fun watching this arena. I've had enough conversation with Mallove and Rothwell to believe them honest sources who share human fallibility with all of us. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 16:30:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA20310 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 16:17:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA20270 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 16:17:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA28825; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:15:12 -0500 Date: 19 Feb 96 19:13:53 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: WWW stuff Message-ID: <960220001353_100060.173_JHB41-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> Is Norman able to stop by the Poynder's place and pick up the device? << Have no fear - at last Steven has phoned me in response to my fax and he is going to bring the thing here to me. It appears that he lives quite close by, and goes home at week ends when Tracey lets him off the hook. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 16:40:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA20278 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 16:17:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA20241 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 16:17:03 -0800 (PST) From: RMCarrell@aol.com Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA10718 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:15:05 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:15:05 -0500 Message-ID: <960219191504_426570604@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Piantelli patent and Debye's Constant Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Can anyone enlighten me about the significance of Debye's constant in the context of the Piantelli patent published in Vol.1 No.4 of Infinite Energy? Is the list of metals given indicative of those for which o-u performance has been seen by Piantelli? Mike Carrell From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 19:15:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA18748 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 18:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA18710 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 18:52:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-32.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-32.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.32]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA14441 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 13:49:42 +1100 (EST) From: rvanspaa@netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: soup & suppose Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 03:53:45 GMT Organization: Improving Message-Id: <31293840.8566762@mail.netspace.net.au> References: <199602191323.AA19816@world.std.com> In-Reply-To: <199602191323.AA19816@world.std.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/16.182 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:23:06 -0500, mitchell swartz wrote: First, let me say that my post, to which Mitchell replied, was intended as a sort of "devil's advocacy" of mainstream fusion thinking. The purpose was to highlight the primary concerns of mainstream science, in order to focus the thinking of TBs on the type of response that would be convincing to the mainstream. [snip] > Beta decay. Also all known nuclear reactions before cold fusion I'm not quite sure what the "Beta decay" means here. If it is intended as an example of a reaction not producing ionising radiation, then all I can say is that to the best of my knowledge, high energy electrons and positrons are considered to be ionising radiation. i.e. they are capable of ionising other atoms. >did not involve the ENTIRE solid, but could treat the nucleons >separately (except for Mossbauer systems) > > ========================================= > > =rs 2) Current theory holds that positive charges always repel one > =rs another, yet in order for fusion to take place, positively charged > =rs nuclei need to get very close together. This involves overcoming their > =rs mutual repulsion, otherwise known as the Coulomb barrier. (The Coulomb > =rs is the unit of electric charge). It is generally supposed that the > =rs only effective way of doing this is by heating the nuclear fuel to > =rs very high temperatures such that very occasionally one nucleus can > =rs "quantum tunnel" through the Coulomb barrier, and fusion will > =rs eventuate. > > You are considering the simple case of two body collisions. >That is NOT how cold fusion works. When you have multibodies >fusing by whatever means, that condensation is probably best not >modeled with two-body collision theory. and there is no reason >that it should. > > ========================================= > > =rs Various such theories have been proposed, (see the archives of SPF) > =rs over the past few years, however none of these appear to be taken > =rs seriously enough by mainstream scientists to convince them that > =rs further investigation is warrented. > > There is obstruction to publication. Many papers have been >submitted, but the cold fusion coverup in the English-speaking >countries has continued for the time being. > > Best wishes. > Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) > > > Given the original intent of my posting, Mitchell has been most obliging in providing possible reasons why current mainstream thinking might not be applicable in the case of CF. In a another post, I will myself propose another possibility, that I think may tickle your fancy. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 19:38:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA22526 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:15:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA22503 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id TAA05707; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:15:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:15:17 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: calorimetry/thermometers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: calorimetry/thermometers To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 09:02:13 -0600 (CST) Norman Horwood writes: > I'm having difficulty with Mitch's paper on temperature diffs with vertical > flow, even after reading his paper!! Does he mean that bouyancy due to s.g. > changes falsifies the true velocity and therefore the calculated heat output? > Or is there some more esoteric agency at work here - wot I have missed? I only ever understand things graphically and so I am still trying to picture what it really means. All I have come up with so far is that "convection" implies local circulation. That is, some of the warm bead water convects up to the temperature probe and therefore some of the water near the temperature probe is forced back down again. Does this local loop change anything as far as measuring assumptions. That's the part I can't visualize yet. I'll have to let it ferment for a while. :-) Convective bouyancy that does not result in local loop would just be an aid in series with the external pump and would simply increase the flow rate. Since like electrical current in a circuit, the flow rate is the same everywhere, a convection induced increase in flow rate would be noticed in the flow rate monitor elsewhere in the system and therefore would not induce any over-measurment of heat *if* all inputs are assumed to heat the water. I can, in fact, see a cooling effect! Resistive heating is always assumed to be 100% efficient. But if convection occurs, that motion energy has to come from somewhere, and it can only come from the joule heating, so therefore the rise of convection flow means, by conservation of energy, that the flow must cool. Of course there is very very little energy in the convection flow so the cooling is very very slight. But at least it isn't an extra heating factor. :-) -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - 28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA23035 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:18:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA23003 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:17:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id TAA06023; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:17:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:17:39 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: WWW stuff Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com --- FORWARDED --- From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: WWW stuff To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 10:07:43 -0600 (CST) Chris Tinsley writes: > http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/rei/CFdir/CFhome.html > > (Isn't that MIT?) That's Cold Fusion Technology's home page. It is apparently maintained by someone named (or has the initials) rei. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From <@@pseg.com> Mon Feb 19 20:06:40 1996 Received: from gauntlet.pseg.com (firewall-user@[137.20.117.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA00580 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:06:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by gauntlet.pseg.com; id WAA07817; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 22:50:20 -0500 From: <> Received: from public.pseg.com(137.20.118.151) by gauntlet.pseg.com via smap (g3.0.1) id sma007815; Mon, 19 Feb 96 22:49:54 -0500 Received: FROM ZOOMIT.X400.PUBLIC.pseg.com BY PUBLIC.pseg.com ; 19 FEB 96 22:49:26 EST Date: 19 FEB 96 22:47:57 EST Subject: Undeliverable Message To: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary="ZoomitID_=_t7881091.038" X-Mailer: 2.3.5 ZOOMIT X.400/SMTP Dual Stack X-Complete-Subject: Undeliverable Message Message-ID: <0000qyimciqi.0000oqcokooa@pseg.com> > This is a message in MIME format. > Your mail reader does not support MIME so > part of this message may be unreadable. --ZoomitID_=_t7881091.038 Content-Type: Text/plain;charset=us-ascii To: Lee Catalfomo@EBU.PROD.EC@NEWARK ZoomIt.X400@PUBLIC@PUBLIC [C=US/A=INTERNET/DDA=ID/vortex-l(a)mail.eskimo.com] Cc: Subject: vtx: WWW stuff Message not delivered to recipients below. VNM3043: Lee Catalfomo@EBU.PROD.EC@NEWARK --ZoomitID_=_t7881091.038 Content-Type: Text/plain;charset=us-ascii Return-Path: Received: FROM gauntlet.pseg.com BY PUBLIC.pseg.com ; 19 FEB 96 22:47:27 EST Received: by gauntlet.pseg.com; id WAA07812; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 22:47:50 -0500 Received: from mail.eskimo.com(204.122.16.4) by gauntlet.pseg.com via smap (g3.0.1) id sma007810; Mon, 19 Feb 96 22:47:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA23035 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:18:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA23003 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:17:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id TAA06023; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:17:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:17:39 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: WWW stuff Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com --ZoomitID_=_t7881091.038-- From <@@pseg.com> Mon Feb 19 20:06:42 1996 Received: from gauntlet.pseg.com (firewall-user@[137.20.117.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA00628 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:06:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by gauntlet.pseg.com; id WAA07807; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 22:46:20 -0500 From: <> Received: from public.pseg.com(137.20.118.151) by gauntlet.pseg.com via smap (g3.0.1) id sma007805; Mon, 19 Feb 96 22:46:06 -0500 Received: FROM ZOOMIT.X400.PUBLIC.pseg.com BY PUBLIC.pseg.com ; 19 FEB 96 22:45:38 EST Date: 19 FEB 96 22:43:55 EST Subject: Undeliverable Message To: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary="ZoomitID_=_t7878671.965" X-Mailer: 2.3.5 ZOOMIT X.400/SMTP Dual Stack X-Complete-Subject: Undeliverable Message Message-ID: <0000iskuigeo.0000gkewqmcg@pseg.com> > This is a message in MIME format. > Your mail reader does not support MIME so > part of this message may be unreadable. --ZoomitID_=_t7878671.965 Content-Type: Text/plain;charset=us-ascii To: Lee Catalfomo@EBU.PROD.EC@NEWARK ZoomIt.X400@PUBLIC@PUBLIC [C=US/A=INTERNET/DDA=ID/vortex-l(a)mail.eskimo.com] Cc: Subject: Re: vtx: calorimetry/thermometers Message not delivered to recipients below. VNM3043: Lee Catalfomo@EBU.PROD.EC@NEWARK --ZoomitID_=_t7878671.965 Content-Type: Text/plain;charset=us-ascii Return-Path: Received: FROM gauntlet.pseg.com BY PUBLIC.pseg.com ; 19 FEB 96 22:43:23 EST Received: by gauntlet.pseg.com; id WAA07784; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 22:43:50 -0500 Received: from mail.eskimo.com(204.122.16.4) by gauntlet.pseg.com via smap (g3.0.1) id sma007782; Mon, 19 Feb 96 22:43:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA22526 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:15:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA22503 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id TAA05707; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:15:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:15:17 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: calorimetry/thermometers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com --ZoomitID_=_t7878671.965-- From taoshum-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 20:22:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA02645 for taoshum-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:18:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA02638 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:18:48 -0800 (PST) From: LGrant44@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA23724 for taoshum-L@eskimo.com; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 23:17:32 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 23:17:32 -0500 Message-ID: <960219231728_226351336@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: taoshum-L@eskimo.com Subject: hum: Hum Hunting Sender: owner-taoshum-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: taoshum-l@mail.eskimo.com Britain 7 U.S. 2? Is this happening? On a scale of 0 to 9, 0 being no hum at all and 9 being unbearable, it sounds like the numbers might be accurate. Is it possible to attach some numbers and stick them in the Subject part of E-Mail, numbers mean possible maps, possible sources. Between Florida and Britain is a transition zone, does anybody know a hum hearer with a laptop half way between? Work to make your number accurate, we seem to have a 2 pixel map here, U.S. is low, Britain is high. I believe Sweden chimed in a few days ago with a mention that 'Sweden is Humming,' is it still? Is it possible to increase the individual numbers? Can anyone call off-net close by hum hearers and verify local numbers? Who has the capability of echoing this round and round until a finely detailed map can be provided and does anyone have the website capability of netting the map? I hate to be overexcited but when a disparity this clear, one rising to limits and one falling, and an apparent geographic correlation appears one tends to call in the mighty computer and net capabilities we all enjoy so much. This could evaporate but without a map and many points its hard to know. How fast can it be built? Beats me, Netspeed I guess. I would think that a rather sophisticated search for sources could be put in given the university access internet works through. There are also Net accesses to lots of geophysical data and daily readings of variable parameters such as geomagnetic field readings, since this looks like it might be a global type of signal. First it takes data, lets see what this statistical universe looks like. Can we hear from more states and more countries please? By the way, Vince Migliore, who edits the Geo-Monitor, a journal of earthquake precursor research says he knows a researcher who is getting a something like 70-80 Hz. (76?) signal with his gear. I'm checking, it may be possible to pull the hum in with some gear if you're close to a source point. It may be possible to track the signal with gear. More in a day or two on that. Right now's a good time to start because if the hum evens out or the difference lessens over a few days it could get hard to discern things as clearly. This is it folks, if you want to know whether its 'out 'thar' somewhere, and maybe where, that might be determined by whats happening now. Are there more British 'Hummers' out there? LGrant44@aol.com From tyoung@esslink.com Mon Feb 19 20:28:26 1996 Received: from webbsco.esslink.com (root@webbsco.esslink.com [204.252.96.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA04038 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:28:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from tyoung (pm1-13.esslink.com [204.252.96.213]) by webbsco.esslink.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA18682 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 23:26:33 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 23:26:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199602200426.XAA18682@webbsco.esslink.com> X-Sender: tyoung@esslink.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: billb@eskimo.com From: Thomas Young Subject: TVQ Group Hi! I have a strong interest in doing scalar EM projects and experiments and I have read some articles from the TVQ Group regarding this area. I have several of Tom Bearden's books and papers on scalar EM but I am now looking for PRACTICAL CIRCUITS that I can build and test, not just theory. One file I read stated that the TVQ group would be publishing several books on building scalar EM circuits. Can you tell me how to contact this group? Do they have an E-mail address? Do they have a newsletter? Any info would be VERY appreciated! Sincerely, Tom Young e-mail: tyoung@esslink.com From MAILER-DAEMON@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 20:36:02 1996 Received: from localhost (localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with internal id UAA02860; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:36:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:36:02 -0800 (PST) From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <199602200436.UAA02860@mail.eskimo.com> To: taoshum-l-owner@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status; boundary="UAA02860.824790962/mail.eskimo.com" Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure) This is a MIME-encapsulated message --UAA02860.824790962/mail.eskimo.com The original message was received at Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:18:51 -0800 (PST) from majordom@localhost ----- The following addresses have delivery notifications ----- pb0003.epfl2.epflbalto.org (unrecoverable error) (expanded from: :include:/usr/majordomo/lists/taoshum-l) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 /usr/majordomo/lists/taoshum-l: line 66: pb0003.epfl2.epflbalto.org... 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Deferred: Connection timed out during initial connection with mni.mni.com. --UAA02860.824790962/mail.eskimo.com Content-Type: message/delivery-status Reporting-MTA: dns; mail.eskimo.com Arrival-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:18:51 -0800 (PST) Final-Recipient: rfc822; taoshum-l-outgoing@mail.eskimo.com Action: delivered (to mailing list) Status: 2.0.0 Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:36:02 -0800 (PST) Final-Recipient: rfc822; taoshum-l-outgoing@mail.eskimo.com X-Actual-Recipient: rfc822; pb0003.epfl2.epflbalto.org@mail.eskimo.com Action: failed Status: 5.1.1 Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:36:02 -0800 (PST) --UAA02860.824790962/mail.eskimo.com Content-Type: text/rfc822-headers Return-Path: owner-taoshum-l Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA02645 for taoshum-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:18:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA02638 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:18:48 -0800 (PST) From: LGrant44@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA23724 for taoshum-L@eskimo.com; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 23:17:32 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 23:17:32 -0500 Message-ID: <960219231728_226351336@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: taoshum-L@eskimo.com Subject: hum: Hum Hunting Sender: owner-taoshum-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: taoshum-l@mail.eskimo.com --UAA02860.824790962/mail.eskimo.com-- From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 20:39:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA03212 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:22:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA03198 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:22:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-112.austin.eden.com (net-1-112.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.112]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id WAA24906 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 22:22:14 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 22:22:14 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602200422.WAA24906@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Calorimetry without calibration? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com I'd be the last guy here to stand by a measurement without first doing a calibration but I thought yall might be interested in this: About 4 years ago, Dave Clifton and I built a large water-flow calorimeter that had a chamber about 24" x 24" x 36". We equipped this system with "active" insulation which featured servo-controlled heaters that kept the outside of the chamber walls at the same temperature as the inside of the chamber walls, thus virtually eliminating thermal losses from the chamber. The chamber (filled with air) was stirred vigorously and cooled with a standard automotive radiator unit with electric fan. Extremely well insulated entrance and exit boxes contained thermistor temperature probes immersed in the inlet and outlet water flows. We measured mass flow rate of water with a simple diverting arrangement, a stopwatch, and an accurate balance to weigh the collected water. The devices we tested in this calorimeter ran on steady DC power. We measured the input current and voltage with two DVM's. We also measured input power to the DC stirring fan with another pair of DVM's. Once we finally got all the bugs worked out of this system, it's performance was impressive: When we multiplied the observed delta-T, the specific heat of water, and the mass flow rate together, the result agreed with the sum of the input V*I products to within 0.5% relative!...repeatedly, over a wide range of input power levels! Yes we had to use calibrated temperature probes, voltmeters, balances, stopwatch, etc. but I'm tempted to say that we did not have to calibrate the CALORIMETER. - Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 20:40:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA01703 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:13:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA01650 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:13:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-112.austin.eden.com (net-1-112.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.112]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id VAA22091 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 21:48:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 21:48:42 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602200348.VAA22091@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Piantelli patent and Debye's Constant X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Can anyone enlighten me about the significance of Debye's constant in the >context of the Piantelli patent published in Vol.1 No.4 of Infinite Energy? I've wondered about that as well, Mike. A number of folks think it's a meaningless detail, which the "patent" seems full of. Nothing really happens when you reach the Debye temperature for a given element, except that its specific heat quits increasing with temperature...I think. Who knows, it may have real significance...Piantelli has been totally unresponsive to our efforts at communication. >Is the list of metals given indicative of those for which o-u performance has >been seen by Piantelli? I don't think so...but I don't know. The patent gives a number of specific experiments which have produced o-u, each with a different metal or alloy. One of the most incredible of these is the one in which a stainless steel rod was used as the active metal. Stainless steel is virtually impervious to H. If stainless really works, the phenomena must occur on the very surface of the metal. From owner-PCST-L@cornell.edu Mon Feb 19 20:45:33 1996 Received: from listproc2.mail.cornell.edu (LISTPROC2.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.56.15]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA06866 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.mail.cornell.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by listproc2.mail.cornell.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA11276; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 22:35:34 -0500 Received: from cornell.edu (cornell.edu [132.236.56.6]) by listproc2.mail.cornell.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA19366 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 17:35:42 -0500 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by cornell.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA03497 for PCST-L@listproc2.mail.cornell.edu; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 17:39:14 -0500 Received: from cliff.acs.oakland.edu (cliff.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.111]) by cornell.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA03472 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 17:39:10 -0500 Received: from 141.210.14.183 (ppp-pm01-dy-22.opr.oakland.edu [141.210.14.183]) by cliff.acs.oakland.edu (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA25214; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 17:37:24 -0500 Message-Id: <3128FC2E.35E1@oakland.edu> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 17:39:42 -0500 Reply-To: eabyrnes@Oakland.edu Sender: owner-PCST-L@cornell.edu Precedence: bulk From: Ed Byrnes To: International Network on Public Communication of Science and Technology MIME-Version: 1.0 X-To: Reform discussion list for Science Education X-Cc: DTS-L@iubvm.ucs.indiana.edu, k12admin@suvm.syr.edu, PCST-L@cornell.edu X-PH: V4.1@cornell.edu (Cornell Modified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Listprocessor-Version: 7.2(a) -- ListProcessor by CREN Status: O X-Status: T321-L@mizzou1.missouri.edu Subject: Explore my science lab... References: <199602192202.RAA23248@cliff.acs.oakland.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Everyone, You are invited to visit the science lab where I teach. = There are a number of interesting things there including = images of the lab and animals. You can download two = HyperCard stacks created by our 7th and 8th graders: _Blacks Scientists and Inventors_ and _Women in Science_ = and you can see my birds! Hey! Point your web browser to = http://www.acs.oakland.edu/~eabyrnes/ There is also a 22 item survey (the catch) to take a = look at and I've included an e-mail version here if you = need it. The questions all concern Internet Science = Education Projects. The questions I am trying to answer = appear below. Please take a few minutes and answer the = survey, I've tried to streamline the form so it doesn't = take too long. Thank you very, very much. = Ed Byrnes @..@ eabyrnes@oakland.edu (----) Rochester, Michigan, North America ( >__< ) http://www.acs.oakland.edu/~eabyrnes/ ^^ ~~ ^^ If you have ever been involved in a science education = internet project, please take time to fill out the = following (22 item) survey. I hope to answer the following = questions with the information. What types of science education/internet projects increase = science achievement of girls and boys? Were the students able to exchange information (data) = during the project? Were the students able to analyze the exchanged data? Did students have an opportunity to reflect upon the = project? Please Note: Your effort will be of value even if you = don't answer every question. ********************************************************** The Survey (E-mail Form)... Confidential Personal Information: 1.] Your name and electronic mail address is: 2.] Would you like a copy of the final paper sent to your = e-mailaddress? 3.] During this science education internet project you = were a: Student and Female/Student and Male Educator and Female/Educator and Male Project Director and Female/Project Director and Male 4.] If I may call you for an interview, your area code and telephone number is: ********************************************************** Science Education Internet Projects: Rich Description = 5.] Please list the science education internet project = name, contact person, contact e-mail, and/or project web = page (URL): 6.] Please list the science education internet project = objective(s) and the number of days the project ran: 7.] Please describe the project and any exchange of data = in the project: 8.] Which students input (type in) the most questions, = males, females, or males and females? 9.] Which students ask the most questions, males, females, = or males and females? 10.] Which students answer the most questions, males, = females, or males and females? 11.] Please list approximate ages and age ranges of the = students: 12.] How many students are on a computer or terminal at = one time? 13.] How many students are involved in the project and what portion of the students are female? 14.] What is the degree of enthusiasm exhibited by male students? 1 is the least enthusiasm 5 is the greatest = enthusiasm:1 2 3 4 5 (circle one) 15.] What is the degree of enthusiasm exhibited by female students? 1 is the least enthusiasm 5 is the greatest = enthusiasm:1 2 3 4 5 (circle one) 16.] If the students analyze their data, please describe = the way in which they analyze the data. ********************************************************** Success Aspects of the Science Education Internet Project 17.] If the students have an opportunity to reflect upon = the project, please describe how this was accomplished. 18.] How was the project assessed or graded? 19.] How did science achievement of the girls compare to = their science achievement during non-internet science = projects and what evidence would you list to verify this = comparison of achievement? 20.] How did science achievement of the boys compare to = their science achievement during non-internet science = projects and what evidence would you list to verify this = comparison of achievement? 21.] What were the elements of the project that assured = success? 22.] Your comments and suggestions are welcome: ********************************************************** If you have completed the survey, please do one of the = following: a.) Print the form and FAX it to Ed Byrnes at = (810)647-4239 b.) E-mail the form back to Ed Byrnes at = eabyrnes@oakland.edu c.) Print the form out with your responses and mail to: Ed Byrnes, 412 Taylor Street, Rochester, MI 48307-1848 Thank you very much for taking the time to complete this = form. =A0=A0 From <@@pseg.com> Mon Feb 19 20:46:00 1996 Received: from gauntlet.pseg.com (firewall-user@[137.20.117.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA06963 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:45:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by gauntlet.pseg.com; id XAA08003; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 23:46:20 -0500 From: <> Received: from public.pseg.com(137.20.118.151) by gauntlet.pseg.com via smap (g3.0.1) id sma008001; Mon, 19 Feb 96 23:46:03 -0500 Received: FROM ZOOMIT.X400.PUBLIC.pseg.com BY PUBLIC.pseg.com ; 19 FEB 96 23:45:35 EST Date: 19 FEB 96 23:43:59 EST Subject: Undeliverable Message To: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary="ZoomitID_=_t7914751.822" X-Mailer: 2.3.5 ZOOMIT X.400/SMTP Dual Stack X-Complete-Subject: Undeliverable Message Message-ID: <0000wwageuuq.0000uouimasi@pseg.com> Status: O X-Status: > This is a message in MIME format. > Your mail reader does not support MIME so > part of this message may be unreadable. --ZoomitID_=_t7914751.822 Content-Type: Text/plain;charset=us-ascii To: Lee Catalfomo@EBU.PROD.EC@NEWARK ZoomIt.X400@PUBLIC@PUBLIC [C=US/A=INTERNET/DDA=ID/vortex-l(a)mail.eskimo.com] Cc: Subject: vtx: Calorimetry without calibration? Message not delivered to recipients below. VNM3043: Lee Catalfomo@EBU.PROD.EC@NEWARK --ZoomitID_=_t7914751.822 Content-Type: Text/plain;charset=us-ascii Return-Path: Received: FROM gauntlet.pseg.com BY PUBLIC.pseg.com ; 19 FEB 96 23:43:23 EST Received: by gauntlet.pseg.com; id XAA07992; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 23:43:50 -0500 Received: from mail.eskimo.com(204.122.16.4) by gauntlet.pseg.com via smap (g3.0.1) id sma007988; Mon, 19 Feb 96 23:43:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA03212 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:22:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA03198 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:22:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-112.austin.eden.com (net-1-112.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.112]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id WAA24906 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 22:22:14 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 22:22:14 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602200422.WAA24906@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Calorimetry without calibration? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com --ZoomitID_=_t7914751.822-- From <@@pseg.com> Mon Feb 19 20:49:48 1996 Received: from gauntlet.pseg.com (firewall-user@[137.20.117.101]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA07600 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:49:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by gauntlet.pseg.com; id XAA08019; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 23:49:50 -0500 From: <> Received: from public.pseg.com(137.20.118.151) by gauntlet.pseg.com via smap (g3.0.1) id sma008017; Mon, 19 Feb 96 23:49:47 -0500 Received: FROM ZOOMIT.X400.PUBLIC.pseg.com BY PUBLIC.pseg.com ; 19 FEB 96 23:49:19 EST Date: 19 FEB 96 23:47:43 EST Subject: Undeliverable Message To: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary="ZoomitID_=_t7916921.888" X-Mailer: 2.3.5 ZOOMIT X.400/SMTP Dual Stack X-Complete-Subject: Undeliverable Message Message-ID: <0000miwqsyom.0000jjntrhln@pseg.com> Status: O X-Status: > This is a message in MIME format. > Your mail reader does not support MIME so > part of this message may be unreadable. --ZoomitID_=_t7916921.888 Content-Type: Text/plain;charset=us-ascii To: Lee Catalfomo@EBU.PROD.EC@NEWARK ZoomIt.X400@PUBLIC@PUBLIC [C=US/A=INTERNET/DDA=ID/vortex-l(a)eskimo.com] Cc: Subject: Re: vtx: Piantelli patent and Debye's Constant Message not delivered to recipients below. VNM3043: Lee Catalfomo@EBU.PROD.EC@NEWARK --ZoomitID_=_t7916921.888 Content-Type: Text/plain;charset=us-ascii Return-Path: Received: FROM gauntlet.pseg.com BY PUBLIC.pseg.com ; 19 FEB 96 23:46:57 EST Received: by gauntlet.pseg.com; id XAA08014; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 23:47:20 -0500 Received: from mail.eskimo.com(204.122.16.4) by gauntlet.pseg.com via smap (g3.0.1) id sma008007; Mon, 19 Feb 96 23:47:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA01703 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:13:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA01650 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:13:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-112.austin.eden.com (net-1-112.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.112]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id VAA22091 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 21:48:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 21:48:42 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602200348.VAA22091@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Piantelli patent and Debye's Constant X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com --ZoomitID_=_t7916921.888-- From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 21:01:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA06448 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:43:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA06407 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:42:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a2-28.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a2-28.mel.netspace.net.au [203.17.100.28]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA23104 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 15:40:17 +1100 (EST) From: rvanspaa@netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: A mechanism for Prof. Elio Conte Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 05:44:17 GMT Organization: Improving Message-Id: <31294725.12382072@mail.netspace.net.au> References: <960219191504_426570604@emout08.mail.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <960219191504_426570604@emout08.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/16.182 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In SPF Russell W Meretith (jrmeredi@ix.netcom.com) wrote: : It would appear that there is a rise in temperature in salt water : flowing through the Patterson Cell. I believe the rise is the result : of super-conducting contact points between two beads of different : metals. The number of beads contained in the cell provide a large : number of such contact points. He then goes on to compare a Patterson cell with a microwave oven. Personally, I don't buy this scenario. However it did set me thinking. It has previously been proposed by various people that transition metals saturated with hydrogen ions, might become superconducting. Now suppose for a moment that this does in fact happen, but only in small regions of the metal where temporarily high concentrations of hydrogen ions occur. When such a region becomes a superconductor, it would tend to carry all of the current flowing through its local region of the metal. I.e. the current will seek the path of least resistance. Therefore the current density in this small region will be quite high, and the accompanying magnetic field relatively strong. Now suppose that due to magnetic field strength, diffusion, heat or whatever that the region ceases to be superconducting. The conversion from the superconducting state to the normal state is known to be very rapid. This will result in the current through the region (already concentrated) being suddenly cut off. Consequently the local magnetic field will collapse very rapidly, and generate a very high local voltage pulse. Due to the position and orientation of the collapsing magnetic field, it will tend to accelerate electrons precisely through this small region of high proton concentration. These are exactly the circumstances required by Prof. Conte for the fusion of electrons and protons into neutrons. I.e. high velocity electrons colliding with low velocity protons going in the opposite direction. (The protons will also be accelerated by the collapsing magnetic field). In general this scenario provides a mechanism for concentrating the energy of many particles, into just a few. The storage mechanism in this case is the magnetic field created by the superconducting current. At this point I must freely admit that I do not understand Prof. Conte's theory well enough to say whether or not the production of neutrons alone produces excess energy, (over and above that of the kinetic energy of the electron before fusion). If not, then this mechanism by itself will not result in the production of heat. However the subsequent fusion of the resultant neutrons with the available metal nuclei, or even with other protons, would result in the generation of excess energy. This does however leave open the question of why no ionising radiation is detected. (I.e. no gamma-rays). Perhaps Prof. Conte himself would be so kind as to tell us what the chances are of a neutron, formed through the process of electron and proton fusion, falling apart again? My reason for asking this is that it has occurred to me that if only those neutrons that are captured (by other nuclei) survive, then this would explain why few or no neutrons are measured externally. An alternative (but less probable?) scenario involves the protons that are accelerated by the collapsing magnetic field, themselves attaining sufficient energy to fuse with surrounding metal atoms. Such a fusion reaction would then frequently be followed at a later time by an electron capture event. (Both however would still produce gamma-rays, which once again do not appear to be in evidence). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 21:14:39 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA09228 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 21:00:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA09220 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 21:00:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadrn23034; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 23:59:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA08381; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:59:59 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 433658200096050FEPRI; 19 Feb 1996 20:58:20 PST Message-Id: Date: 19 Feb 1996 20:58:20 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Calorimetry without calibration? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/19/96 20:58:35 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/19/96 20:39 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Calorimetry without calibration? Thanks Scott, for some REALITY about calorimetry....MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 22:41:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA06307 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 22:27:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from bos1e.delphi.com (SYSTEM@bos1e.delphi.com [192.80.63.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA06273 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 22:27:44 -0800 (PST) From: JOEFLYNN@delphi.com Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V5.0-5 #10880) id <01I1F2R9FNNA9EHW30@delphi.com> for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 01:27:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 01:27:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: vtx: magnetic effects To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <01I1F2R9FNNC9EHW30@delphi.com> X-VMS-To: INTERNET"vortex-l@eskimo.com" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: sorry, hit wrong address Robin van Spaandonk says: Therefore the current density in this small region will be quite high, and the accompanying magnetic field relatively strong. Very interesting. Raises a question with me. Since there could be many conducting paths through the beads which could create magnetic fields...has anyone measured the bead area with a gauss meter? Since some cells are reported to work with nickel only beads and since nickel is ferromagnetic with a relative permeability, Ur = 600, with even a small current flow there has to be some magnetic action. Palladium is paramagnetic Ur = 1.0008. Since nickel is strongly magnetic and palladium significantly magnetic there has to be a magnetic field associated with the bead area, no doubt in my mind. There also has to be a mechanical action between the beads, at least on initial power up, no way around it. Even with DC input, due to many mechanical electrical contacts inital current could set up an oscillation, an AC in the bead area... beyond this point many things are possible ie: induction heating, heat from mechanical vibration, low frequencys and high frequencys. Many capacitors, inductors and resistors and countless combinations of current paths in bead area sets the stage for endless electromagnetic possibilities. I know none of these activites explain the "reported" gain in heat in of themselves. Has anyone tested for any of the above??? Joe Flynn From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 22:47:55 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id WAA07054 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 22:32:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from bos1f.delphi.com (SYSTEM@bos1f.delphi.com [192.80.63.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA07045 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 22:32:45 -0800 (PST) From: JOEFLYNN@delphi.com Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V5.0-5 #10880) id <01I1F2XD67LO9EHW30@delphi.com> for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 01:32:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 01:32:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: vtx: magnetic effects To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <01I1F2XD67LQ9EHW30@delphi.com> X-VMS-To: INTERNET"vortex-l@eskimo.com" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: sorry, hit wrong address Robin van Spaandonk says: Therefore the current density in this small region will be quite high, and the accompanying magnetic field relatively strong. Very interesting. Raises a question with me. Since there could be many conducting paths through the beads which could create magnetic fields...has anyone measured the bead area with a gauss meter? Since some cells are reported to work with nickel only beads and since nickel is ferromagnetic with a relative permeability, Ur = 600, with even a small current flow there has to be some magnetic action. Palladium is paramagnetic Ur = 1.0008. Since nickel is strongly magnetic and palladium significantly magnetic there has to be a magnetic field associated with the bead area, no doubt in my mind. There also has to be a mechanical action between the beads, at least on initial power up, no way around it. Even with DC input, due to many mechanical electrical contacts inital current could set up an oscillation, an AC in the bead area... beyond this point many things are possible ie: induction heating, heat from mechanical vibration, low frequencys and high frequencys. Many capacitors, inductors and resistors and countless combinations of current paths in bead area sets the stage for endless electromagnetic possibilities. I know none of these activites explain the "reported" gain in heat in of themselves. Has anyone tested for any of the above??? Joe Flynn From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 06:18:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA11152 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 05:44:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from giasone.teseo.it (giasone.teseo.it [194.21.136.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA11122 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 05:44:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from gamma.teseo.it by giasone.teseo.it; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Oct95-0808PM) id AA15821; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 14:43:56 +0100 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 14:43:56 +0100 Message-Id: <9602201343.AA15821@giasone.teseo.it> X-Sender: conte@teseo.it Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: conte@teseo.it (Elio Conte) Subject: vtx: A mechanism for Prof. Elio Conte X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From: rvanspaa@netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: vtx: A mechanism for Prof. Elio Conte >Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 05:44:17 GMT >Organization: Improving >References: <960219191504_426570604@emout08.mail.aol.com> >Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > >In SPF Russell W Meretith (jrmeredi@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: It would appear that there is a rise in temperature in salt water >: flowing through the Patterson Cell. I believe the rise is the >result >: of super-conducting contact points between two beads of different >: metals. The number of beads contained in the cell provide a large >: number of such contact points. > >He then goes on to compare a Patterson cell with a microwave oven. >Personally, I don't buy this scenario. However it did set me thinking. > >It has previously been proposed by various people that transition >metals saturated with hydrogen ions, might become superconducting.=20 >Now suppose for a moment that this does in fact happen, but only in >small regions of the metal where temporarily high concentrations of >hydrogen ions occur. When such a region becomes a superconductor, it >would tend to carry all of the current flowing through its local >region of the metal. I.e. the current will seek the path of least >resistance. Therefore the current density in this small region will be >quite high, and the accompanying magnetic field relatively strong. Now >suppose that due to magnetic field strength, diffusion, heat or >whatever that the region ceases to be superconducting. The conversion >from the superconducting state to the normal state is known to be very >rapid. >This will result in the current through the region (already >concentrated) being suddenly cut off. Consequently the local magnetic >field will collapse very rapidly, and generate a very high local >voltage pulse. Due to the position and orientation of the collapsing >magnetic field, it will tend to accelerate electrons precisely through >this small region of high proton concentration. > >These are exactly the circumstances required by Prof. Conte for the >fusion of electrons and protons into neutrons. I.e. high velocity >electrons colliding with low velocity protons going in the opposite >direction. (The protons will also be accelerated by the collapsing >magnetic field). > >In general this scenario provides a mechanism for concentrating the >energy of many particles, into just a few. The storage mechanism in >this case is the magnetic field created by the superconducting >current. > >At this point I must freely admit that I do not understand Prof. >Conte's theory well enough to say whether or not the production of >neutrons alone produces excess energy, (over and above that of the >kinetic energy of the electron before fusion). >If not, then this mechanism by itself will not result in the >production of heat. However the subsequent fusion of the resultant >neutrons with the available metal nuclei, or even with other protons, >would result in the generation of excess energy. This does however >leave open the question of why no ionising radiation is detected. >(I.e. no gamma-rays). > >Perhaps Prof. Conte himself would be so kind as to tell us what the >chances are of a neutron, formed through the process of electron and >proton fusion, falling apart again? >My reason for asking this is that it has occurred to me that if only >those neutrons that are captured (by other nuclei) survive, then this >would explain why few or no neutrons are measured externally. > >An alternative (but less probable?) scenario involves the protons that >are accelerated by the collapsing magnetic field, themselves attaining >sufficient energy to fuse with surrounding metal atoms. >Such a fusion reaction would then frequently be followed at a later >time by an electron capture event. (Both however would still produce >gamma-rays, which once again do not appear to be in evidence). > > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* >Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, >Learns all his life, >And leaves knowing nothing. >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > The superconductivity. - The Biquaternion Quantum Mechanics may be applied to the description of the pairing of two electrons into an extended deformable object in a superconductor.As I said in a previous message,the biquaternion quantum mechanics explains for the first time a superconducting state as a cold fusion electron-electron.The binding ot the two electrons is determined by the solution of the usual Schrodinger equation (that always is connected to Conte Generalization of Schrodinger Equation,CGSE) for one spin state and the solution of CGSE for the opposite spin state.We have again wave- overlapping in the superconducting state.Superconductivity must be explained not on the basis of conventional,local potential interactions,but on the= basis of these non linear,non local,non potential interactions due to the= wave-over- lapping . This is the fundamental point. Were these overlapping conditions respected in the considerd experiment? If yes,correctly we may say that we had a condition of superconduction. -In Biquaternion Quantum mechanics we have the cold fusion of a proton and an electron.This process forms a neutron plus neutrinos plus an excess of energy.We must be care in considering this date,but from a preliminar examination we have obtained that this energy excess should be about 70-80 kev for each fusion.Thus,no doubt on the excess of energy,particular care in considering its value( 70-80 Kev). In order to decide if a neutron was formed,we must control only two (just one,in this case!) physical parameters:had the electrons the required energy to assure penetration into the proton? Also in this case we cannot have the best estimate:however,from our preliminar elaborations it follows= that the electrons should have about 700-800 kev to enter into the proton.If this= =20 date is verified with accuracy in the experiment,it results appropriate to= consider that neutrons were formed during the experimentation that you are= considering. -Another point:the fate of the created neutron. You must consider it as the Neutron! If the neutron is free,it will decay as= we know in awell known time. Here the problem should be to know the enrgy of the neutrons that were pro- duced.Remember,please,that neutron capture requires,in general,thermal= neutrons, if,of course,energetic neutrons were produced they,presumably,decayed and no secondary effects were observed (in principle,it could have been difficult= to detect electrons in a medium!). -Finally,I must confess that I make these discussions in the dark.I am a=20 theoreti- cal physicist with experince in quantum mechanics and nuclear physics.I have arrived to the cold fusion,but I do not know in detail(as it is required!)= =20 all the=20 experiences that are in course in the field of cold fusion.Please,inform me= in detail on this experience that you are now considering since if I will know= all the technical aspects of this experimentation,I will be able to offer also= =20 a more defined collaboration.The same request of help I turned,starting with some= days ago,for the problem of the transmutations.Please,send me texts regarding the experiments,or send me files by E-mail,or also indicate me where I may found detailed informations via computer and I will be in the condition to give a more consistent collaboration. Sincerely.Elio Conte --- Prof Elio Conte Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 19 14:29:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA18999 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 13:57:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA18967 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 13:57:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA08777; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 16:56:51 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01477; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 16:46:10 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 16:46:10 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602192146.AA01477@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Possible Positional Error Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> writes: Subject: vtx: Possible Positional Error =jr "I asked a simple, direct question: "Did you actually run water through a tube =jr and measure the temperature?" meaning, of course, an experiment with "with =jr test tubes, water, and thermocouples." In response Mitch reposted for the =jr fourth time a bunch of verbiage about the history of science which does not =jr begin to answer the question as far as I can tell. You were answered twice, Jed. First you said "experiment". You were told "yes", and that it was an iterative theoretical experiment (several actually) which was conducted. You may not like the answer, as is your choice. But note even in your writings, there is a reason to pause. -----> Did you or did you not say: =jr " The only questions remaining would be how much heat, =jr and why there is an apparent discrepancy between the =jr flow measurements and the performance of the reservoir =jr as a static calorimeter." =jr jedrothwell@delphi.com =jr Responses to T. Craven, M. Jones Was there a discrepancy, Jed? If you did, then why don't you want to know why there is. =============================================== =jr " I also asked Mitch to name =jr names and tell us who "did no initial calibration." It was you because you are slurring what was said. The issue had to do with reliance on the (perhaps) mistaken belief that flow calorimetry is simpler than static calorimetry. Here is one example which you posted. =jr "From: jedrothwell@delphi.com =jr Subject: Re: Kettle experiment =jr Sun, 7 Jan 96 21:02:01 -0500 =jr Message-ID: =jr "Measuring the reservoir temperature is a lousy way to do calorimetry with this =jr set up. This was designed to be a flow calorimeter, not a static calorimeter. =jr There are far too many variables and unknowns to make this a reasonable =jr static calorimeter. But, as a simple "yes or no" presence or absence test, =jr the reservoir temperature does work. It proves there was excess heat. The =jr flow temperature proves it much more elegantly, with far greater precision." =jr - Jed IMHO nothing is obvious at this point. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 07:52:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA18167 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 06:31:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA18155 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 06:31:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id GAA24184; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 06:31:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 06:31:46 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: soup & suppose Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 17:57:50 +1100 (EST) From: Dave DAVIES To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: soup & suppose ... > > > > =rs 2) Current theory holds that positive charges always repel one > > =rs another, yet in order for fusion to take place, positively charged > > =rs nuclei need to get very close together. This involves overcoming their > > =rs mutual repulsion, otherwise known as the Coulomb barrier. (The Coulomb > > =rs is the unit of electric charge). It is generally supposed that the > > =rs only effective way of doing this is by heating the nuclear fuel to > > =rs very high temperatures such that very occasionally one nucleus can > > =rs "quantum tunnel" through the Coulomb barrier, and fusion will > > =rs eventuate. > > > > You are considering the simple case of two body collisions. > >That is NOT how cold fusion works. When you have multibodies > >fusing by whatever means, that condensation is probably best not > >modeled with two-body collision theory. and there is no reason > >that it should. > > ... > > Robin van Spaandonk > I presented a seminar on CF yesterday to a group of people interested in the Greenhouse Effect. The question of reconciliation with conventional reaction results was asked. To my mind the 2-body/many-body contrast is the key to this. In a two body collision there is nowhere else for the energy to go but a gamma. In a lattice there is. In a crystal lattice coherent local systems are constantly forming and disintegrating on thermal time scales much greater than typical nuclear reaction time scales which are restricted in 2-B collisions to the fly- by time of the incident particle which decreases with energy! Collision processes are caught in a bind. To achieve coherence between the two nuclei requires a combination of adequate time and interaction strength. Increasing the interaction strength by increasing the energy of the incoming beam has the effect of reducing the time available - catch 22. These coherent systems incrystal lattices can be large enough to contain MeVs of energy and provide an alternate reaction path. My thanks to this group for all the up-to-date news. I cant cope with spf much any more. Generally, my talk was well received. dave From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 07:58:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA18721 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 06:35:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA18714 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 06:35:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA01228; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 09:35:25 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03045; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 09:30:47 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 09:30:47 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602201430.AA03045@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Calorimetry without calibration? Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little writes: Subject: vtx: Calorimetry without calibration? "I'd be the last guy here to stand by a measurement without first doing a calibration but I thought yall might be interested ....[zip] .. I'm tempted to say that we did not have to calibrate the CALORIMETER." Nice story by Scott Little. There are a few questions that would be helpful to have answered. 1) Why do you think the pressure head against convective flow (and thus the flow itself) was the same before, and after, diversion? What pump did you use to make this convective a "current source" 2) Was this a horizontal or vertical flow calorimeter? 3) What were the devices which you were testing which were 99.5% efficient with respect to converting input (V*I) into heat? Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 09:03:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA10720 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 08:40:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA10692 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 08:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-3-142.austin.eden.com (net-3-142.austin.eden.com [206.81.226.142]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id KAA13017 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 10:40:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 10:40:02 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602201640.KAA13017@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Calorimetry without calibration? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell asks: >1) Why do you think the pressure head against convective flow >(and thus the flow itself) was the same before, and after, diversion? Special precautions were taken to ensure this. The outlet hose was arranged to create a "waterfall" before returning the water to the large holding tank outside the calorimeter. Water samples were caught by simply inserting a vessel under this waterfall for a precisely timed period. The presence of the vessel did not disturb the flow impedance at all. > What pump did you use to make this convective a "current source" I'm not sure I understand this question. We used a positive displacement gear pump driven by an oversized AC induction motor. Under light loads such motors are very nearly constant speed. Nonetheless we measured the speed with a tachometer frequently..it never varied more than 0.1%. Flow rate was typically 30gm/sec in 1/4" ID tubing. Delta-T was typically around 2.3 degrees C. >2) Was this a horizontal or vertical flow calorimeter? Well, er...that's a bit ambiguous in this case. I guess it was more-or-less vertical. Water entered the automotive radiator at the bottom and exited at the top. The sensors, however, were well isolated from the actual calorimeter chamber so I don't think it matters at all what went on inside the radiator. Cool water entered the chamber, warm water exited the chamber...we waited for equilibrium and then measured the various parameters. >3) What were the devices which you were testing which were >99.5% efficient with respect to converting input (V*I) into heat? We tested a DC motor driving a "special generator" with a dummy load on it. As a check on our electrical measuring devices, we also tested a toaster (the kind you use at breakfast) and that worked just as well. Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 09:09:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA11743 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 13:30:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA11660 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 13:30:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA21173; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 16:28:15 -0500 Date: 19 Feb 96 16:27:09 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@CompuServe.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: calorimetry/thermometers Message-ID: <960219212708_72240.1256_EHB115-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little wrote: "I observed about 1.06 times the amount of gas expected from the electrolysis current alone. I'm pretty sure the excess was water vapor, created in the relatively warm cell." Run the gas outlet tube through an ice-water bath before it hits the flowmeter. See if it condenses. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 09:35:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA16956 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 09:11:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA16935 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 09:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadtk22940; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 12:11:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17350; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 09:11:01 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 315609090096051FEPRI; 20 Feb 1996 09:09:09 PST Message-Id: Date: 20 Feb 1996 09:09:09 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: WWW stuff To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/20/96 09:09:54 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/20/96 08:50 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: WWW stuff Norman! Great! Wait until you and Chris have this toy in hand. I'm sure that with the good technical backgrounds you have, you will see it is THE instrument you need to put a handle on the Qdot, or radiative energy from a strong radiation source. Good closure on this item of my life. Again, don't worry about the cost, because it was $10 US when I bought it 5 years ago. I bought that toy at a surplus store---where they had NO idea of what it was used for. I said to myself, " Hey-CF isn't generating in this range yet----but maybe!" MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 10:01:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA01266 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 07:54:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (climate-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.251.148]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA01238 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 07:54:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.183.89.65] (macwharton.gsfc.nasa.gov) by climate.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA220151667; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 10:54:27 -0500 X-Sender: wharton@climate Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 10:54:42 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (Larry Wharton) Subject: vtx: Simple heat output test Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex, It is great to see so many independent tests of the Patterson cell comming online. Not only do these tests appear to be of high quality but the results should be more accessible than with the CETI demo technique. I would just suggest that the simple "Thermos jug test" be done. Here the outflow of a working cell would be diverted into into an insulated container and the container would be capped. The container should be allowed to sit and slosh around an amount consistant with the path through the rest of the loop. Then the temperature of the water may be taken. There will be no positional errors, any salt crystals should have melted, and any chemical products, such as Steve Jones' peroxide sulfates, should have reverted to the approximate state as the inflow. Whatever alleged salt crystals or chemicals that are produced must be undone by the mixing and time transpiration associated with going around the rest of the loop. Of course this is very approximate but it would be good enough. Let's suppose that we have a 100 to 1 excess delta T, then the Thermos jug test should reduce the delta T by a factor of 100. That is a big factor and it will be impossible to miss it. Recall that Frank Znidarsic did this test in a sense. He took his graduated flask and diverted the PowerGen 95 demo cell outflow into it. He was checking the flow rate but also noticed that the delta T went from 15 C to about 5 C. This factor of 3 decrease seems much higher than could be explained by the absorption of heat in the flask surface. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 10:10:06 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA12349 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 10:24:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from GAV.GAT.COM ([192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA12005 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 10:22:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 10:22:56 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer@gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199602191822.KAA12005@mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 10:16:22 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Mixers Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed R. and W. Beaty have posted comments about inline fluid mixers. I mentiined briefly in an earlier post that I didn't think they do much mixing of laminar flows. Beaty is correct that in laminar flow the only way to "mix" fluid elements is to fold streamlines such that elements initially far apart come close enough for diffusion to reduce the inhomogeneities. Many years ago c. 1970 I saw a movie of a demonstration of the nonmixing of laminar flows. A dye drop was placed in a viscous liquid, and the liquid was flowed slowly (to remain laminar) for a while. The color drop smeared out and pretty much disappeared. Then the flow was reversed. The color drop cam back into view when the flow reached the starting condition, only slightly diffesed from its original sharpness. The issue is, how well do inline mixers actually work in laminar flow. I don't know, having never tested one. I will add that the many-vane mixer Jed describes sounds better than the ones I am familiar with. I wouldn't trust its mixing ability, however, unless I saw test data. On the other hand, a mixer can't hurt. A good mixer has to bring many distant stream lines close to one another for enough time for diffusion to be effective. Michael J. Schaffer michael.schaffer@gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 10:34:31 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA20199 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 11:12:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA19870 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 11:10:17 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA22461 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 14:08:33 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 14:08:33 -0500 Message-ID: <960219140832_148070141@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: soup & suppose Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Swartz raised the issue that overcoming the Coulomb barrier in a two-body collision might be difficult, but once a multi-body calculation was done perhaps that would make it easier. I have myself carried out just such calculations of electron-electron collisions using standard van der Waals theory and was surprised to find that although van de Waals attractive forces will not appreciably help to overcome Coulomb repulsion in two-body collisions, when one takes a look at an N-body situation (where N is very large - 10^something), electrons can indeed snuggle up on the basis of van der Waals attractive forces - just as Mitchell suggests. The above is being submitted to Phys. Rev. Although specifically derived for electron rather than nuclear interactions, I would imagine the same principles would apply. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 10:34:51 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA13712 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 08:55:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA12510 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 08:48:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id LAA26832; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 11:47:23 -0500 Date: 20 Feb 96 11:45:56 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Simple heat output test Message-ID: <960220164555_72240.1256_EHB106-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Larry Wharton writes: "Recall that Frank Znidarsic did this test in a sense. He took his graduated flask and diverted the PowerGen 95 demo cell outflow into it. He was checking the flow rate but also noticed that the delta T went from 15 C to about 5 C. This factor of 3 decrease seems much higher than could be explained by the absorption of heat in the flask surface." It is not higher than can be explained this mechanism. This can be shown in several ways: 1. I, and others, tested the cell water temperature a dozen times using other containers, and we saw no similar temperature drop. These other containers were made of lighter material. We used at least two other containers. This evidence cannot be dismissed. 2. Frank's flask remained quite warm for a while even after we dumped out the warm water whereas the other containers cooled down rapidly. 3. Frank's flask was a precision graduated cylinder, meaning it was a tall, thin container with the ml markings farther apart. So it has more surface area compared to volume, so it absorbs more heat. 4. I tested a similar heavy plastic cup back here in Atlanta and found a similar large temperature drop compared to a light cup, and similar retention of heat after dumping out the warm water. Try it! - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 10:48:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA17492 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 09:14:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA17444 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 09:13:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-3-142.austin.eden.com (net-3-155.austin.eden.com [206.81.226.155]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id LAA15688 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 11:13:18 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 11:13:18 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602201713.LAA15688@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: calorimetry/thermometers X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed said: >Run the gas outlet tube through an ice-water bath before it hits the >flowmeter. See if it condenses. Nice idea, Jed. Dry the gas before measuring its volume. I might just try it on the upcoming bead tests. Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 11:49:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA07617 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 11:15:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA07331 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 11:13:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id OAA04731; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 14:12:02 -0500 Date: 20 Feb 96 14:09:01 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Not self-educated! Message-ID: <960220190901_72240.1256_EHB5-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Mike Carrell commented: "Jed is an honest observer but is self-educated in the physical sciences." I would like to say that I am not a bit self-educated. It is just the opposite. Every single thing I know about physics (which isn't much) comes straight out of the textbooks. To be precise, it comes from two semesters of mid-level physics at Cornell 20+ years ago for which I got the most difficult 'B' I ever received, and from these two textbooks, which I recommend, which is really the point of the point of this message: Hess & Thomas, "Chemistry Made Simple," Doubleday Made Simple Books. This has a nice 12 page chapter on electrochemistry explaining Faraday's law, Half-reaction (Electrode) Potentials, voltaic cells, dry cells, lead storage cells and so on. Ya' gotta love a textbook with statements like this: "Rule of Dulong and Petit: Atomic Weight * Specific Heat = Approximately 6.2." Approximately! (Values range from 5.9 for Cu to 7.0 for K. And if it was biology it would be even more approximate.) Freeman & Durden, "Physics Made Simple," Doubleday Made Simple Books. This is a gem. It has one of my all-time favorite statements about physics, which I imagine will infuriate any real scientist like Puthoff, who is searching for Sublime Deeper Meanings and Unfathomable Connections: "Notice that Newton's law allows us to calculate the force of gravity but does not tell us what gravitation is or why it exists. These are questions of philosophy, not physics." Oh me, oh my, did I get a kick out of reading that! It expresses my attitude to a T. The thing is, Newton himself might agree because he said, after all, "I make no hypotheses." Too many darn hypotheses -- that's the trouble with this modern day science. I don't hold with this fashion of hypothesizin' all over the place about invisible string theories, not that I actually understand more than 0.02% of it. Well, I have been accused of being anti-intellectual and even anti-science, but at least I am not G.O.P. candidate for president Patrick Buchanan, who recently said: "I believe that children should not be forced to believe the Bible, but I think that every child should know what is in the Old and the New Testament.... You may believe you're descended from monkeys; I don't believe it. I think you're descended, I think you're a creature of God. . I believe that God created heaven and earth. I believe, first, I believe the literal New Testament is literally the word of God, and I believe the Old Testament is the inspired word of God.... I think they have a right to insist that Godless evolution not be taught to their children or their children not be indoctrinated in it." - P. Buchanan on "This Week" news program, quoted in yesterday's New York Times Won't we have fun if *he* gets elected?!? Think of all the other Godless science waiting to be banned, restricted, and censored by the Mullahs. To start with, all this blasphemy about the germ theory and how people make babies Will Have To Go. And now back to your regularly scheduled program. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 13:01:34 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA21969 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 12:38:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA21934 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 12:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadty11565; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 15:37:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA16450; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 12:37:03 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 733036120096051FEPRI; 20 Feb 1996 12:36:12 PST Message-Id: Date: 20 Feb 1996 12:36:12 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Not self-educated! To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/20/96 12:36:29 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/20/96 11:48 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Not self-educated! Hey gang: The three "Nuclear Engineering Graduate Courses" I tested FOR CREDIT and received credit for at the University of Nebraska, 13 years ago---THAT WAS "self education". (I needed the graduate credits for the MS Mech E. degree.) What I'm saying is---I had to study the texts all on my own, because these courses were not available through "extension". Now the only difference between me and a "self educated" person in a variety of other fields is that I had the ability and the circumstances to receive formal academic credit for my "self education". So Jed, I think you can see why I'm really wary of using "self educated" as an "ad hominum" attack. It could bounce back hard! - Anyway, poor old Pat, did he really say that? Man, does he need a Dale Carnigie course! I might agree with some aspects, but I'd sure say it different. I wonder if the Vortex group is aware of the "evolutionary shibboleth" organisms adjust by "natural selection", and not by individual organisms adjusting to a varied enviromental condition and then passing on that adjustment to a following generation? That's something that an "evolutionary biologist" from my younger days (high school, college) would have BET HIS (her) HOUSE ON! And right now, they would LOSE same said house. Turns out that bacteria can analyse certain anti-biotics. (Not all of course, or we'll---have to finish this in a moment.... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 17:09:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA27156 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 15:38:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA27117 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 15:38:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA06755; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 18:36:53 -0500 Date: 20 Feb 96 18:35:43 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Thermos-flask calorimetry Message-ID: <960220233542_100433.1541_BHG42-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex I saw the recent discussion on the thermal capacity of thermos flasks. I would comment that I've been using various sizes of thermos flask recently to do calorimetry, and have found how surprisingly high is their actual thermal capacity. Worse, I have noted differences of about 4% (+/- about 2%) between two thermoses of the same make and size - a demonstration that in calorimetry one can take nothing at all for granted. One method I've used for determining specific heats is to place a suitable quantity of the material (solids) in a thermos flask, let it come to a settled temperature (very close to ambient) by giving it time and gently rolling the flask from time to time. A measured quantity of water at a known temperature (higher) in another thermos is then poured into the first one, which is stoppered and again allowed and helped to stabilise. This technique gives surprisingly reproducible results, within a couple of percent, but you have to do a series of 'blank' runs with the first thermos empty. Naturally, you also have to choose the various temperatures and thermal masses to get a nice delta-T without having to have very hot water (which would lose some heat when poured). And it is those blank runs which show that the flask itself has remarkably high thermal capacity. Another nice trick with this method is to use it to measure the thermal capacity of a some material whose SH is already known - like water. Again, it shows that the this method is pretty accurate - accurate enough for my present purposes. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 20:28:44 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA05086 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 19:10:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA05051 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 19:10:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id WAA00467; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 22:08:55 -0500 Date: 20 Feb 96 22:06:58 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Thiotimoline Message-ID: <960221030657_100433.1541_BHG34-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Whilst I appreciate that some might feel that this query is a bit off-topic, and I'm sure Dieter as our resident expert in chemistry has all the answers on this one, I think that thiotimoline is one of those substances (like liquid helium) which is more significant for its physical than its chemical properties. I have read several papers on this remarkable substance and its properties - which apparently derive from its unusual relative orientation of its bonds. Could anybody direct me to a description of its stereology? I believe it is the simplest of the endochronic substances, and therefore perhaps more easily understood than the more complex varieties. And it is not clear to me why resublimation is essential to its action? Chris From Stephan.Clerc@psi.ch Wed Feb 21 00:02:47 1996 Received: from pss200.psi.ch (pss200.psi.ch [129.129.40.200]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA20218 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 00:02:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by pss200.psi.ch; Wed, 21 Feb 96 09:00:48 +0200 Message-Id: <312ad1302973002@pss200.psi.ch> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 09:00:48 +0200 Received: by DniMail (8.0Beta1); Wed, 21 Feb 96 09:00:33 MET From: Stephan.Clerc@psi.ch (STEPHAN H.-R. CLERC) To: vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Subject: RE: vtx: Thiotimoline Status: RO X-Status: unsubsbribe Stephan.Clerc@psi.ch From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 02:03:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id BAA02114 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 01:46:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA02107 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 01:46:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA26364; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 10:46:16 +0100 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 10:46:15 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Thiotimoline In-Reply-To: <960221030657_100433.1541_BHG34-2@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 20 Feb 1996, Chris Tinsley wrote: > To:Vortex > > Whilst I appreciate that some might feel that this query is a bit off-topic, > and I'm sure Dieter as our resident expert in chemistry has all the answers > on this one, I think that thiotimoline is one of those substances (like > liquid helium) which is more significant for its physical than its chemical > properties. I do indeed have all the answers, as usual. > I have read several papers on this remarkable substance and its properties - > which apparently derive from its unusual relative orientation of its bonds. > Could anybody direct me to a description of its stereology? I believe it is > the simplest of the endochronic substances, and therefore perhaps more easily > understood than the more complex varieties. And it is not clear to me why > resublimation is essential to its action? This very valuable and interesting substance was discovered by the late Isac Asimov, I believe while still a Ph.D. candidate. I don't believe its structure has ever been elucidated, and this would be, let us say, a *timely* thing. The difficulty - and probable reason for the tardiness of the crystallographers with the job - is that it dissolves before hitting its solvent; since every crystal of the stuff is likely eventually to be put into a solvent, it probably tends to disappear before you can aim the x-ray at it. That's no doubt the problem. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 06:46:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA15435 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 06:31:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA15427 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 06:31:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id JAA04417; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 09:30:31 -0500 Date: 21 Feb 96 09:28:16 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Dr Who etc Message-ID: <960221142815_100433.1541_BHG97-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Michael Mandeville writes: "(except for Tinsley, who seems to have flapped in from some delightfully quaint English dimension (I secretly suspect he is working for Dr. Who))..." My dark secret is out at last. "... and they gotta see it to believe it." Oh, me too. I make this desperate effort to 'be a camera' and just say what I see. "What colour is that horse over there?" "This side of it is black, I don't know about the other side," summarises my intent, if not my success rate. "Chris, if you by chance read this, I'm sorry, but I can't help myself from playing into your literary style of making you a character. This is very silly of me, perhaps presumptious, and if this offends you, I will drop it." Not at all. It gives a pleasant sensation because it reminds me that I exist. "I like Deng's philosophy about theory, "it doesn't matter what color the cat is, so long as it catches mice". In regard to both CF and the Patterson Cell, it seems to be clear that nobody knows yet what color the cat is, but it is reasonably clear, from the mice tails on the sidewalk, that there is a cat around. The first task is to bag that sucker and stick him down in the basement to do some useful work. Then we'll figure out what color it is." I like that. I shall steal these comments for my own use. I take to heart Tom Lehrer's philosophy on the advancement of science through plagiarism. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 07:08:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA19271 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 07:01:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA19250 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 07:00:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id JAA05723; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 09:59:41 -0500 Date: 21 Feb 96 09:57:12 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Thiotimoline Message-ID: <960221145711_100060.173_JHB61-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris said re: thiotimolene, >> And it is not clear to me why resublimation is essential to its action? << Do tell - what are these actions - sounds like some sort of ointment? Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 08:07:39 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA27024 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 07:51:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA27005 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 07:51:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id KAA00593; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 10:50:02 -0500 Date: 21 Feb 96 10:47:35 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Thiotimoline Message-ID: <960221154734_100433.1541_BHG36-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:vortex Norman asks for more information, and I would refer him to several articles by the late Dr I Asimov - a chemist of some distinction - who first discovered the stuff. It is a sulphur-containing compound, one in which the various bonds are so stressed by mutual interference between the atoms that one of the bonds is twisted into the fourth dimension. Since the molecule is polar it dissolves readily in water, but has the distinction of dissolving at a precise interval (I don't have the exact figure) before the water is added. Certain dangers attach to its use. If it is quickly placed in a massive safe immediately it enters solution, then - if a major catastrophe is required to ensure that the water still reaches it on time - that catastrophe will occur on schedule. All manner of uses have been described by the Good Doctor, including the building of relativistic spacecraft which are not subject to the usual time-dilation effects. As Dieter points out, these difficulties and dangers apply also to such apparently trivial procedures as X-ray crystallography. So far, Beilstein fails to mention this substance. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 08:28:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA00954 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 08:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA00947 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 08:12:19 -0800 (PST) From: RMCarrell@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA04068 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 11:11:02 -0500 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 11:11:02 -0500 Message-ID: <960221111100_149748390@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Not self-educated! Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey guys, I'm sorry and my express and profound apologies to Jed. It is evident from the style and incisiveness of his comments here and on spf that he is a savvy technical person and I have told him so privately. I was misinformed about his academic background, my source simply indicated that Jed didn't have a degree in a physical science (Jed, if I'm wrong please correct). We are all self-educated, teachers and cirricula are guides; diplomas of any degree are no guarantees of competence and wisdom. My post was intended as a private reply to Mr. Rapp's posting and I goofed in it getting onto Vortex-l, nor did I intend it as any sidebar slur on Jed. In context, I was illustrating a debate which had become heated as one consequence of the fragmentary information the participants here are getting, being once or twice removed from those doing the actual work. As a friendly observer trying to make my way here I deplore the personal invective from any source and don't want to add to it. Vortex-l and spf is populated by a mix of people with various credentials, from Ph.D. to amateurs. In my 38 years at RCA I consorted with the best and brightest at the Sarnoff Center and floor sweepers in the manufacturing plants, and I grew to respect one and all for their diverse capabilities. We are sailing on uncharted waters, where the accumulated wisdom of our academic colleagues is useful but not definitive. Their familiarity with what is known and errors commonly made will help to focus on what is truly new. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 08:48:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA02560 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 08:21:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA02535 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 08:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from scott.dsis.dnd.ca (scott.dsis.dnd.ca [131.136.15.26]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA04728 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 11:11:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602211611.LAA04728@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 11:18:21 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: Re: vtx: Not self-educated! Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mark Hugo wrote: >... >bacteria CAN adjust their biochemistry to survive an antibiotic. And after >some of them do that in a group---they do two things: A. Pass the information >on to their next generation (i.e., this info gets incorporated in their >DNA--first generation!) and, by an element called a "plasmid" they can >transfer this information to OTHER bacteria nearby in a solution ( of the >same species). >- >Now before anyone says, "Nonsense" this is from a 1995 published, Microbiology >textbook, so it is "state of the art" info. This is way off topic, but so what... Actually, I think there is some fairly strong evidence that this sort of genetic "re-programming" is not limited to the lower life forms. I recall (but I can't put my hands on it now) that there was a study done of "first generation" people who had moved to a very high altitude environment (La Paz, Bolivia, I think) which demonstrated that their adaptation to the environment was expressed in changes to the immediate genetic structure of individuals. The second generation benefited from receiving DNA that was more finely tuned to their environment. I don't see why these "higher order" adaptation mechanisms should be excluded from what is generally accepted about genetics and I definately don't see it as evidence of any sort of "devine intervention" or deliberate "plan". Apparently, only a small percentage of the total "coding" in human DNA (and the DNA of most other "higher" organisms) has any identifiable active function. The remain portions could well be related to coding various alternate biological processes that can be "unmasked" by environmental stress. It would certainly be adventageous to the survival of a population if each new genetic adaptation is retained (put in the "bank", so as to speak) so that they do not have to be "re-invented" each time some new stress occurs. And higher order processes which generate taylored "re-coding" based on a particular set of stress inputs would be very valuable and very efficient in terms of coding. The analogies with self modifying computer programs is quite straight forward. This sort of coding is seen in some AI programs written in LISP, etc. Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 08:56:03 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA05668 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 08:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA05651 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 08:38:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from scott.dsis.dnd.ca (scott.dsis.dnd.ca [131.136.15.26]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA04843 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 11:28:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602211628.LAA04843@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 11:35:42 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wspage@ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: Re: vtx: Vortex, Newcomers, Culture, Multiple Messages Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael Mandeville wrote: >... >P.S. Additional aside on the Patterson cell. Hardly anyone on Vortex gives >a damn what is theoretically possible or not, although a few will disagree >with this statement on some level or another. Most on Vortex are interested >in exploring phenomenon, whether explained or understood or not, thus this >is definitely an experimenter's communication medium, not a theoretician's >communication channel. > ... I, for one definitely disagree strongly with this statement and I wonder on information what you base this opinion. Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 10:21:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id JAA10800 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 09:06:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA10771 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 09:05:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadxc07526; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 12:05:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22660; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 09:05:08 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 701104090096052FEPRI; 21 Feb 1996 09:04:09 PST Message-Id: Date: 21 Feb 1996 09:04:09 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Not self-educated! To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/21/96 09:04:10 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/21/96 08:48 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Not self-educated! I couldn't agree more with you Bill, about the genetic code NOT being some aspe ct of a "plan". I've been noticing my computer gradually reprograming itself continuously and getting better, faster, smarter, all the time. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 12:47:44 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA19336 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 12:30:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA19320 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 12:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamltndt.cias.com (hamltndt.cais.com [205.252.26.60]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.10/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA01477 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 15:30:02 -0500 Message-ID: <312B814E.2404@cais.com> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 15:32:14 -0500 From: Danny and Terry Hamilton X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0GoldB1 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Wave Theory Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Has anyone on vortex-l looked into wave theory as a theoretical explanation of excess energy? Two lines of thought. (1) The electrical current (viewed as a waveform) establishing some type of resonance of ?something. (2) The molecular structure somehow focusing the electrical waveform analogous to a magnifying glass focusing sunlight to start a fire. Or maybe a combination of both? At first I thought it was amateurish thought, but I found a paper by a WALTER E.R CASSANI, http://www.inet.it/ospiti/cassani/index.html, that comes close and even addresses CF. -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Danny and Terry Hamilton hamltndt@cais.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 15:11:18 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA15773 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 14:52:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA15474 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 14:50:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA27228; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 17:49:35 -0500 Date: 21 Feb 96 17:47:56 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Statement from Bowles on s.p.f. Message-ID: <960221224755_72240.1256_EHB170-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex This appeared in sci.physics.fusion. I think it is important, so I am cross-posting it for Vortex-L readers who do not get s.p.f. As I see it, Bowles is saying that if he finds no evidence of helium he will disavow his excess heat measurements. That's what scientists always say! It's perfectly typical. I doubt that he will find helium, because I think a lot of the energy often comes from host metal transmutation, or possibly from some unknown source of energy like ZPE. Therefore, I predict that Bowles will retract his heat measurments, even though he will not be able to give any scientific reason to doubt them. He says that "is doing all the wrong things." I couldn't agree more! - Jed Originally-From: bks@netcom.com (Bradley K. Sherman) Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Subject: A message from Bowles Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 00:31:04 GMT Organization: Remote Fusion Reactor Reverse Entropy Associates I have received this response from Quinton Bowles. Ordinarily I would not post email to the USENET, but I did ask Dean Bowles if he had a comment about the CETI device "for the record." (For the truly paranoid, I admit that I have done nothing to verify that this email actually came from Q. Bowles) Some mail header lines are deleted as are some portions of my interrogatory. Dr. Bowles response is in full. Note that any line prefixed with a greater-than sign (i.e. '>') was written by me, not by Bowles. Please be careful with excerpts! | From qbowles@cctr.umkc.edu Mon Feb 19 11:21:04 1996 | To: bks@netcom.com (Bradley K. Sherman) | From: Quinton Bowles | Subject: Re: WSJ article linking you with CETI ... | >Your name has been bandied about (by others) as someone | >who has either replicated the work of Cravens at CETI, | >or someone who has spent some time vetting his results/ | >protocols. | > | >Part of my real job is to contact molecular geneticists and | >ask them about their current research. Usually scientists | >are very happy to talk about their work. So I have made | >it a habit to send a short letter to researchers whose | >names have come up in CF discussions on the USENET, not | >to argue the physics, which I'm not qualified to do, | >but just to see if they're being misrepresented --often | >the case. | > | >Personally, the behavior of CETI has seemed a bit | >bizarre, not characteristic of either scientist | >or businessman, and I [am] somewhat familiar with both | >groups and the hybrids, having worked in commercial | >settings, research settings and applied science | >startups. | > | >I guess all that I'm asking is if you have an | >opinion, for the record, about the CETI device. ... | | Dear Dr. Sherman: | | Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you. I also didn't intend to be | so short. However, as you might guess, I have received so many crank calls, | messages and e-mails that I have quit trying to answer them. Finally, on | 2/1/96 I officially became Assoc. Dean of the Univ of Missouri College of | Engineering. | | Now on to your questions. I'm not as happy as I could be with our | temperature measurements. As a result we have made some | investment to be able to make reliable temp measurements around 40 deg C | with about 0.1 deg accuracy. I will then be much more | sure about our results. Nevertheless, it does appear that there is excess | energy output. We intend to prompt gamma-ray spectroscopy analysis to try | to detect any isotope ratio change | between "virgin" and "used" beads. We also have some plans for | going to the bureau of mines labs where they have a mass spec especially set | up for detecting helium. If we don't find any evidence of nuclear reactions | after that, it will be "drop back and punt" time. We have also done some | preliminary tests for chemical reactions and found none. After all that | there still "seems to be" excess heat. I am working for Kansas City Power | and Light Company and not CETI. I personally think CETI is doing all the | wrong things. However they just want to make money and get out I think. | Hope this has been of some help to you. | Yours truly | Quinton Bowles> | Hope this helps, --bks From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 16:50:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA05233 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 16:34:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA05197 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 16:33:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA22947; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:32:21 -0500 Date: 21 Feb 96 19:29:32 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex-l Subject: vtx: Thiotimoline Message-ID: <960222002932_100060.173_JHB72-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> one of the bonds is twisted into the fourth dimension << I see! Time will tell! From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 17:54:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id RAA16581 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 17:37:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix12.ix.netcom.com (ix12.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.12]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA16544 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 17:36:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from by ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id RAA27116; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 17:35:38 -0800 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 17:35:38 -0800 Message-Id: <199602220135.RAA27116@ix12.ix.netcom.com> From: aki@ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: Re: vtx: Thiotimoline To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You wrote: > >To:vortex > >Norman asks for more information, and I would refer him to several articles >by the late Dr I Asimov - a chemist of some distinction - who first >discovered the stuff. It is a sulphur-containing compound, one in which the >various bonds are so stressed by mutual interference between the atoms that >one of the bonds is twisted into the fourth dimension. Since the molecule >is polar it dissolves readily in water, but has the distinction of >dissolving at a precise interval (I don't have the exact figure) before the >water is added. > >Certain dangers attach to its use. If it is quickly placed in a massive >safe immediately it enters solution, then - if a major catastrophe is >required to ensure that the water still reaches it on time - that >catastrophe will occur on schedule. All manner of uses have been described >by the Good Doctor, including the building of relativistic spacecraft which >are not subject to the usual time-dilation effects. > >As Dieter points out, these difficulties and dangers apply also to such >apparently trivial procedures as X-ray crystallography. > >So far, Beilstein fails to mention this substance. > I believe that the substance, Thiotimoline, by its very characteristics, is the anti-substance to that once militarily important and liberally used substance known to promote stability, and stop time in its tracks, Cosmoline. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 18:38:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA25773 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 18:27:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from college.antioch.edu (college.antioch.edu [192.131.123.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA25753 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 18:27:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by college.antioch.edu (5.0/1.63) id AA16688; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 21:17:02 -0500 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 21:16:59 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Thiotimoline Simple questions In-Reply-To: <199602220135.RAA27116@ix12.ix.netcom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Akira Kawasaki wrote: Q: > >Certain dangers attach to its use. If it is quickly placed in a ******* > massive safe immediately it enters solution, ******* Does this mean if we put it into a box .... but with no water ... it will enter into solution? Am I misunderstanding the term "massive safe" ? Q: ***** then - if a major catastrophe is required to ensure that the water still reaches it on time - that catastrophe will occur on schedule. ****** How does one cause a catastrophe to ensure the water reaches the material ... or am I missing something? Q: Did Asimov discover the compound or did he just investigate some of its unusual properties? cut----------------- Q: ********** > >As Dieter points out, these difficulties and dangers apply also to > such > >apparently trivial procedures as X-ray crystallography. ********* What dangers? ************** > I believe that the substance, Thiotimoline, by its very > characteristics, is the anti-substance to that once militarily > important and liberally used substance known to promote stability, and > stop time in its tracks, Cosmoline. > ************** I though cosmoline is a grease and rust inhibitor for storing or helping to store and preserve vehicles, equipment and so on .... true? Or is this humor? J From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 20:49:51 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA03754 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 20:16:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from bos1e.delphi.com (SYSTEM@bos1e.delphi.com [192.80.63.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA03743 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 20:16:36 -0800 (PST) From: JOEFLYNN@delphi.com Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V5.0-6 #10880) id <01I1HQRID3A89AR7C0@delphi.com> for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 23:16:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 23:16:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: vtx: Vortex, Newcomers, Culture, Multiple Messages To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <01I1HQRID3AA9AR7C0@delphi.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"vortex-l@eskimo.com" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: If you do not theorize then you are only making measurements on someone else's experiment. JF From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 21 22:00:20 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id VAA18438 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 21:49:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA18421 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 21:49:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-151.austin.eden.com (net-1-151.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.151]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id XAA28169 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 23:49:21 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 23:49:21 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602220549.XAA28169@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: thermal stratification X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell et al, I've been thinking about another problem that could be plagueing the Cravens-style vertical flow calorimetry...thermal stratification in the air space outside the cell. In at least one of the public demos Cravens put on, he enclosed the cell in an insulated chamber made with two Dewars placed mouth-to-mouth. This created a more-or-less dead air-space around the cell and, since the cell was operated at a temperature significantly above ambient, I would expect a considerable temperature gradient to exist in this air space, hottest at the top and cool at the bottom. With the very slow flows he used (14ml/min is .7cm/sec flow velocity in 1/4" ID tubing), the temperature sensors could be significantly affected by simple conduction through the walls of his fittings. Such a problem would cause the upper temp sensor, which is the outlet sensor, to be hotter than the lower sensor...resulting in a false positive indication. Because the air-space stratification is "driven" by the heat of the cell, this false positive indication should become larger when the cell temperature is raised. Cravens has reported that "the effect" has a positive temperature coefficient and works noticeably better at elevated electrolyte temperatures... Comments? - Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 03:48:04 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA26920 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 03:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id DAA26911 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 03:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id DAA18922; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 03:36:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 03:36:35 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Thiotimoline Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 10:57:40 -0500 From: "Robert I. Eachus" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Thiotimoline Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> said: > Whilst I appreciate that some might feel that this query is a bit off-topic, > and I'm sure Dieter as our resident expert in chemistry has all the answers > on this one, I think that thiotimoline is one of those substances (like > liquid helium) which is more significant for its physical than its chemical > properties. It's raining and the temperature in Boston is predicted to hit 50F today, but I hadn't realized it was April already. ;-) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 03:49:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA27188 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 03:40:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from bavaria.utcluj.ro (itimc@[193.226.5.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA27150 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 03:40:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from itimc@localhost) by bavaria.utcluj.ro (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA07018; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 13:42:03 +0200 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 13:42:03 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: vtx: calorimetry, CETI Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortex-fellows, A. Bowles' statement. Obviously the statement of Dean Quinton Bowles re. the CETI Cell ( thank you Jed for posting it, it's highly interesting!) cannot make happy a "true believer". However, it is a problem of semantics here, at least for me. Dr. Bowles says that in case they wouldn't find any evidence of nuclear heat explaining the excess heat, it will be time to "DROP BACK AND PUNT". Isn't this an expression coming from the jargon of sports (football, rugby, soccer) which means to send the ball back with the aim of getting a better position? In other words, to try to find an other explanation if no nuclear ash of any kind and no chemical reaction could be find to justify the excess heat? It will be really difficult to retract the excess heat results just because these cannot be correlated with known effects/theories. Even more interesting is the statement: "I personally think CETI is doing all the wrong things". This alludes to the difference between effectiveness and efficiency e.g. doing the right things vs. doing the things right (or wrong/wrong). What's the great error of CETI? Some time ago it seemed that we all agree that they made an excellent job, and now... B. Hyperbolizing Hyperfine Calorimetric Effects... makes them look significant. After a lengthy discussion re. the errors caused by the verticality of the flow calorimeters, Scott is hypothesizing a false positive effect due to air stratification. As far I know, the last demonstration of the CETI Cell at Powergen was made without placing the heat source in Dewars, the cell was the equivalent of a hot spring, generating REAL hot water from cooler water. It is a fine paradox here, Scott: the real heat, coming from the cell, generates a false effect. Anyway, the therm/ometers /couples /istors are placed normally in the cell and heat stratification, even in the Dewar cannot alter significantly the measurement. In one of my messages which got lost (?), I made a statement, and I take the risk to repeat it: CALORIMETRY IS A METHOD NOT A RELIGION! Peter Gluck From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 05:29:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA06305 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 05:17:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA06297 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 05:17:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA29031; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 08:17:18 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08654; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 08:11:26 -0500 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 08:11:26 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602221311.AA08654@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: thermal stratification Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little (little@eden.com) writes: Subject: vtx: thermal stratification = "I've been thinking about another problem that could be plagueing the = Cravens-style vertical flow calorimetry...thermal stratification in the air = space outside the cell. = In at least one of the public demos Cravens put on, he enclosed the cell in = an insulated chamber made with two Dewars placed mouth-to-mouth. This = created a more-or-less dead air-space around the cell and, since the cell = was operated at a temperature significantly above ambient, I would expect a = considerable temperature gradient to exist in this air space, hottest at the = top and cool at the bottom. With the very slow flows he used (14ml/min is = .7cm/sec flow velocity in 1/4" ID tubing), the temperature sensors could be = significantly affected by simple conduction through the walls of his = fittings. Such a problem would cause the upper temp sensor, which is the = outlet sensor, to be hotter than the lower sensor...resulting in a false = positive indication. = = Because the air-space stratification is "driven" by the heat of the cell, = this false positive indication should become larger when the cell = temperature is raised. Cravens has reported that "the effect" has a positive = temperature coefficient and works noticeably better at elevated electrolyte = temperatures... = Comments? = - Scott Little Several issues here, if my interpretation of your post is correct. 1) Could thermal stratification outside of the cell also influence the thermal conductivity and thus the calibration constant of a calorimeter? 2) Does thermal conduction through fittings effect the reading of a temp sensor? 3) Could the thermal air thermal stratification effect which Scott Little suggests (based upon differences in thermal conductivity of the gases surrounding the calorimeter, similar to that which was suggested by John Logajan in a much more simple form several months ago), then alter the temperature sensors through the fitting effect (#2 above)? ------------------------------------------- Are those correct? Will assume is, and will tackle #1, and leave the rest for the group. ;-)X Let us assume a 20C temperature change, so that instead of a mean 30C, the air is stratified from 20 to 40C in this gendanken expt. Air's thermal conductivity varies from 42 to 45 between 20 and 40C :units cal/(sec-cm2)(degC/cm) x 10-6 that is about a 6% change. However, it is +/- 3% around the mean and just balances, almost when integrated over the wall if the distribution is even. It is when there is asymmetry that the effect will occur. The effect Scott Little suggests only appears to occur for asymmetric thermal air stratification. This is defined as that special case where either the spatial distribution is asymmetric or the change in thermal air conductivity with temperature is non-linear). It does not appear to be greater than a percent or so of the result because the special case referred to above is for the most part not supplied. However, to calculate the upper limit of the effect, let us assume the secondary asymmetry results in a 2% variation. By how much would a postulated 2% change in the "ambient" air conductivity by thermal stratification alter the result? By how much would the effect alter the outcome? The overall impact on the overall system thermal conductivity is even less as follows. Let's model the calorimeter as a simple first order linear system. The losses to the local "ambient" from the cell include conduction, radiation, and convection of two types -- flow induced and thermal induced. Changing the air by thermal stratification alters the conduction term, and that is in "series" with the conduction term through the calorimetry cell itself. Therefore the thermal conductivities might be modeled as Kequiv = Kwall * Kair __________ Kwall + Kair using the fact that resistivities add in series and converting Rwall to 1/Kwall etc. and then converting back. So, it is now possible to substitute numbers in, including the variation of Kair for the effect Scott Little postulates. If Kair is a tenth that of the wall, Kair = 0.1 Kwall, then a hypothetical 2% asymmetric stratification change in air conductivity will alter the total conductivity by about +/- 1.8%. If Kair is ~ Kwall, a hypothetical 2% asymmetric stratification change in air conductivity will alter the total conductivity by about +/- 1.0%. If Kair is 10 Kwall, a hypothetical 2% asymmetric stratification change in air conductivity will alter the total conductivity by about +/- 0.2%. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 05:30:51 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA06622 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 05:19:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA06604 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 05:19:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-178.austin.eden.com (net-1-178.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.178]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id HAA29362 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 07:19:44 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 07:19:44 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602221319.HAA29362@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: hyperfine effects X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Peter said: >It is a fine paradox here, Scott: the real heat, coming from the >cell, generates a false effect. Actually the heat doesn't have to come from the cell. In the demos I'm referring to, they used an auxilliary heater to warm the electrolyte. You're right about the PowerGen demo. That's the thing that has awakened my interest in the Patterson cell. It would take more than a hyperfine effect to explain an apparent 200:1 gain...I think. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 05:38:33 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id FAA07482 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 05:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA07475 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 05:27:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id IAA25864; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 08:26:37 -0500 Date: 22 Feb 96 08:25:04 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: thermal stratification Message-ID: <960222132504_100433.1541_BHG35-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:vortex Scott, It is, I appreciate, dangerous to draw firm conclusions from limited evidence, but I found as follows: If a thermos flask is filled with either air or water, and there is a significant difference between ambient and the temperature inside, the thermal gradient inside the flask is remarkably small. (Yes, I do know that moving my thermometer will have disturbed the thing, and that thermistors take quite a while to settle in air). Just an observation, it may not be very relevant. But I (wildly) guess that molecular motion 'stirs' the fluid faster than heat loss can drive convection. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 08:04:32 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA26658 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 07:42:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA26642 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 07:42:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA17936; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 10:42:42 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01224; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 10:35:24 -0500 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 10:35:24 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602221535.AA01224@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: thermal equilibrium question Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Thermal equilibrium question "Most of the measurements I took at Power-Gen were done when the cell and circulating electrolyte was still heating up, not when it was coming down from high power. In case nobody has noticed, the thermal equilibrium argument works the other way in that case. In any case "high power" is 1.4 watts." What was the time sequence of the heaters being on, and the time when the system was "still heating up"? Do they shut off at, or before, "high power", or just after startup? How long are they on. If the heaters were on, why do/did you not count them? Were they 50 watts? or more? Why were there two heaters(?) in the pictures? Thanks for clarifying this. Best wishes. Mitchell From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 08:06:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA27653 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 07:48:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA27626 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 07:48:29 -0800 (PST) From: RMCarrell@aol.com Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA06159 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 10:47:01 -0500 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 10:47:01 -0500 Message-ID: <960222104700_428908426@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: A Cautionary Tale Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There has been some comment on CETI's commercial strategies and I thought these notes from another field and another time might be of interest and relevance. Armstrong had a strong influence on the development of the radio industry through his work on the regenerative receiver, superheterodyne receiver, and FM radio. Static is the bane of AM radio, because atmospheric noise is essentially AM impulse noise which is most easily overcome by superior signal strength. Armstrong saw that if the signal caused the transmitter freqency to change, instead of its amplitude, then the transmitted signal would be so different in its character from the noise that a suitable receiver could discriminate easily between them. It turns out that the circuits to amplitude modulate and detect a signal are much easier than those for frequency modulation. It also turns out that the slice of the frequency spectrum required by FM is greater than AM. After much highly original and praiseworthy work, Armstrong set up a demonstration FM station near NYC and made his point to the engineering and broadcast communities. Because there were no high fidelity phone lines in that period, Armstrong built a small network of FM stations by simple relay; one station would simply pick up the signal from another and rebroadcast it locally. The cruel blows came with television. The television transmission standard uses amplitude modulation for the video signal and frequency modulation for the sound, which might have been a bonanza for Armstrong. The FCC in setting up channel allocations for TV moved the FM band from the one Armstrong was using to the middle of the VHF band, between channels 6 and 7. This wiped out the fledgling network. The second blow was the invention by an RCA engineer of the 'ratio detector' for FM signals, which walked around the Armstrong receiver patents. Armstrong's receiver patents taught that you first amplified and then clipped the received signal, removing all amplitude variations and noise; then you discriminated the different incoming frequencies, converting the variation in frequency to the desired signal output. The ratio detector recovered the frequency deviation in a very simple circuit. While it did not have the full noise-immunity of the Armstrong approach, it was plenty good enough. The moral of this tale is that being first does not guarantee a win. A patent is a license to sue, not a guarantee of wealth. The only true secret is that something can be done; after that the race is to the swift and the winds of fate. As a footnote, the capacity of a channel to transmit information is a function of bandwidth (min and max frequencies) and signal/noise ratio. There are many clever ways to exploit this, which are too far off-topic for this forum. A second footnote is the saga of High Definition Television. There was much weeping and wailing some ten years ago when the Japanese started broadcasting this format and it looked like the US was falling behind. Then General Instrument came forward with a digital compression scheme, there was a general heads-up in the US and European electronic industries and the Japanese HDTV approach is now a cul-de-sac. Instead there is a whole new revolution ahead, starting this year with the Digital Video Disc and the replacement of NTSC TV with digital TV in 15 years. But that's another story. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 14:50:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA05448 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 14:38:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA05408 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 14:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA14431; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 17:36:30 -0500 Date: 22 Feb 96 17:34:57 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: A Cautionary Tale Message-ID: <960222223456_72240.1256_EHB131-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Thanks again to Mike Carrell for his cautionary tale from the history of modern radio. Indeed, a patent is no guarantee of success, and as the Japanese have shown with HDTV, being first can sometimes be a disadvantage. I'd like to add a sad footnote to the story. As I recall, Edwin Armstrong was so devastated by his business experiences he committed suicide in 1954, at age 64. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 15:07:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA08131 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 14:51:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA08089 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 14:51:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-203.austin.eden.com (net-1-219.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.219]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id QAA11813 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 16:51:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 16:51:00 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602222251.QAA11813@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: A Cautionary Tale X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I'd like to >add a sad footnote to the story. As I recall, Edwin Armstrong was so >devastated by his business experiences he committed suicide in 1954, at age >64. hmmmm! Should we all pitch in a buy a life insurance policy on Jim Reding? Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 19:15:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA22190 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 19:05:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from amauta.rcp.net.pe (amauta.rcp.net.pe [161.132.5.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA22059 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 19:04:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from kamisato by amauta.rcp.net.pe with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tpnmp-000680C; Thu, 22 Feb 96 22:03 EST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: kamisato@amauta.rcp.net.pe To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:01:39 +0000 Subject: vtx: patterson cell Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am newcomer in cold fusion, and I have several question about de Patterson power cell ? 1. Why they didn't use heavy water in any demostration? 2. Why they don't use more input load , 50W instead of just 1.5W? 3. Is there any problem operating this device in a higher temperature I.e. for example over 100 C? If this device function with the electrolysis, why not use the hidrogen to operate a higrogen electric cell, like the one used on the Space Shuttle to produce electricity? regards Eduardo From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 20:10:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA01326 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 20:00:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA01307 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 20:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-129.austin.eden.com (net-1-129.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.129]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id WAA04105 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:00:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:00:36 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602230400.WAA04105@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: patterson cell X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Welcome Eduardo...are you from Peru? >I am newcomer in cold fusion, and I have several question about de >Patterson power cell ? >1. Why they didn't use heavy water in any demostration? I think Patterson has experimented with heavy water and found that light water works just as well. >2. Why they don't use more input load , 50W instead of just 1.5W? As I understand it, the present cell designs simply cannot stand such high input power. Perhaps they simply have not tried such high power levels. Very little detailed information about the extent of their experimentation is available to us. >3. Is there any problem operating this device in a higher temperature >I.e. for example over 100 C? Their present designs contain a lot of plastic items which will fail at elevated temperatures. With some engineering, a high-temperature cell could readily be constructed. Presumably this will be tried very soon since utilization of the heat energy is critically dependent upon the maximum temperature that can be obtained. >If this device function with the electrolysis, why not use the >hidrogen to operate a higrogen electric cell, like the one used on the >Space Shuttle to produce electricity? >From what we have heard about the operation of the cell, the hydrogen production is almost negligible compared to the heat energy production. Stay tuned to Vortex-L. Several of us will be testing our own cells using ersatz beads soon. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 20:15:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA01322 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 20:00:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA01299 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 20:00:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-129.austin.eden.com (net-1-129.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.129]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id WAA04101 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:00:35 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:00:35 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602230400.WAA04101@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: thermal stratification X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks Mitchell, for such a complete treatment of one interpretation of my rather poorly described idea. Actually I was thinking about your #2...conduction thru the fittings...but upon reflection about the whole situation around the cell, it seems pretty unlikely that large errors could result from this. I am ready to drop this half-baked topic and get on with the details of actually testing our the Patterson effect. Thanks again. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 20:16:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA02185 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 20:06:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA02148 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 20:06:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-129.austin.eden.com (net-1-129.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.129]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id WAA04525 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:05:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:05:52 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602230405.WAA04525@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: ersatz bead status X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The bead fabricator has completed a small test batch and has sectioned a few of them and sent them out for SEM examination to check layer thicknesses. Assuming the layers are close to the target thickness, he will make the rest of the beads next week and ship them out by the end of next week. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 20:16:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA02185 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 20:06:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA02148 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 20:06:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-129.austin.eden.com (net-1-129.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.129]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id WAA04525 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:05:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:05:52 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602230405.WAA04525@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: ersatz bead status X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: D The bead fabricator has completed a small test batch and has sectioned a few of them and sent them out for SEM examination to check layer thicknesses. Assuming the layers are close to the target thickness, he will make the rest of the beads next week and ship them out by the end of next week. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 22 20:23:54 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id UAA02770 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 20:10:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA02762 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 20:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-129.austin.eden.com (net-1-129.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.129]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id WAA04890 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:10:30 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:10:30 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602230410.WAA04890@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: wire seals X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A I'm looking for ideas on sealing a wire as it passes thru a plastic wall (into the interior of a CF cell). I would like to seal directly to the wire without adding anything to the wire (it's expensive Pt). The wire diameter is 0.018". I've tried -001 O-rings but I can't seem to make them squeeze down tightly onto the wire. The seal needs to be something that can be assembled and disassembled...i.e. not epoxy. Custom machining is readily available. - Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 00:16:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id AAA08051 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 00:10:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA08017 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 00:10:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA22250; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 09:10:22 +0100 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 09:10:22 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: wire seals In-Reply-To: <199602230410.WAA04890@natashya.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Scott Little wrote: > I'm looking for ideas on sealing a wire as it passes thru a plastic wall > (into the interior of a CF cell). I would like to seal directly to the wire > without adding anything to the wire (it's expensive Pt). The wire diameter > is 0.018". I've tried -001 O-rings but I can't seem to make them squeeze > down tightly onto the wire. The seal needs to be something that can be > assembled and disassembled...i.e. not epoxy. Custom machining is readily > available. Might be worth asking this on sci.chem.electrochem. In electrochemistry, you often read about "press fit" of metal electrodes into PTFE. I believe the stuff gives a bit and seals tightly around the metal. I've had the workshop do this for me, although this was 4 mm rod. I don't suppose it'd be easy to push a roughly 0.5 mm Pt wire into a PTFE hole, but I'd say it's possible. How about doing this once, into a, say, 5 mm diameter PTFE rod, which you could then more easily put into and take out of your plastic cell wall? There is also heat-shrink PTFE. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 01:17:31 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id BAA13664 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 01:10:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA13656 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 01:10:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id EAA07633; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 04:09:37 -0500 Date: 23 Feb 96 04:08:04 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: wire seals Message-ID: <960223090803_100060.173_JHB132-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott asks: >> I'm looking for ideas on sealing a wire as it passes thru a plastic wall One possibility is to try to get some kind of tapered duct which can be tightened onto the wire. One of the smaller pipe unions might be bonded to the plastic and filled with neoprene or other bung, through the centre of which the wire can go, and then a compression union nut tightened over the lot. I have experienced extreme difficulty with water leakage along an insulated wire from a cell due to capillary seepage along the interface between the conductor and the insulation, let alone via the insertion duct! I have only seen this happening with thicker monofilament wire, but the danger is there, and with a conducting electrolite the effects could be catastrophic as the liquid seeps out at the far end where all the electronics etc. are located. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 02:03:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id BAA17264 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 01:56:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA17231 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 01:56:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-29.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-29.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.29]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id UAA14225 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 20:54:01 +1100 (EST) From: rvanspaa@netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: soup & suppose Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 10:58:14 GMT Organization: Improving Message-Id: <312d9944.40158303@mail.netspace.net.au> References: <960219140832_148070141@emout04.mail.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <960219140832_148070141@emout04.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/16.182 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 19 Feb 1996 14:08:33 -0500, Puthoff@aol.com wrote: >Mitchell Swartz raised the issue that overcoming the Coulomb barrier in a >two-body collision might be difficult, but once a multi-body calculation was >done perhaps that would make it easier. I have myself carried out just such >calculations of electron-electron collisions using standard van der Waals >theory and was surprised to find that although van de Waals attractive forces >will not appreciably help to overcome Coulomb repulsion in two-body >collisions, when one takes a look at an N-body situation (where N is very >large - 10^something), electrons can indeed snuggle up on the basis of van >der Waals attractive forces - just as Mitchell suggests. > >The above is being submitted to Phys. Rev. Although specifically derived for >electron rather than nuclear interactions, I would imagine the same >principles would apply. > >Hal Puthoff Hal, May I take it that you will post a reference when/if your paper is published? Regards, > Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 04:38:19 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA28311 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 04:31:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA28302; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 04:31:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id EAA25681; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 04:31:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 04:31:11 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: Scott Little cc: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: wire seals In-Reply-To: <199602230410.WAA04890@natashya.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Scott Little wrote: > I'm looking for ideas on sealing a wire as it passes thru a plastic wall > (into the interior of a CF cell). I would like to seal directly to the wire Why not epoxy (or silicone) but with some mold release on the wire? You could even make a 2-halves epoxy pour, with mold release coating so the halves come apart, then machine the assy. as desired, or cast it into the center of a nylon screw with hole drilled through. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 04:45:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA28853 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 04:38:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA28847 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 04:38:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id EAA25782; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 04:38:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 04:38:46 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: RE: vtx: wire seals Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Fri, 23 Feb 96 00:08:25 From: dacha@shentel.net Subject: RE: vtx: wire seals To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Dear Scott, I think, knowing your expertise in this area that my suggestion is most likely an over simplification....but.... In cases such as this I have often used a threaded feed-through and attached the conductor to the section inside the vessel using silver solder. Good luck, Robert ------------------------------------- Name: dacha E-mail: dacha@visor.com Date: 2/23/96 Time: 12:08:25 AM http://www.visor.com/info ------------------------------------- From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 04:47:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id EAA28903 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 04:40:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA28898 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 04:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id EAA25825; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 04:39:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 04:39:58 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: wire seals Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: wire seals To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 23:13:16 -0600 (CST) > I'm looking for ideas on sealing a wire as it passes thru a plastic wall > (into the interior of a CF cell). I would like to seal directly to the wire > without adding anything to the wire (it's expensive Pt). The wire diameter > is 0.018". I've tried -001 O-rings but I can't seem to make them squeeze > down tightly onto the wire. The seal needs to be something that can be > assembled and disassembled...i.e. not epoxy. Custom machining is readily > available. Well, how about taking a short section of Pt wire and using epoxy to make a bigger thingy that you can seal with o-rings. Then use some sort of clamping of Pt to Pt wires. Maybe your small o-rings will provide enough compression metal to metal contact. I don't think you'd get corrosion at the contact point, so it should be reliable, no? -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 07:16:18 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id GAA13838 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 06:59:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA13789 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 06:58:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.73] ([204.57.193.73]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA03323 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 05:54:15 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 06:03:24 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: wire seals Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I'm looking for ideas on sealing a wire as it passes thru a plastic wall >(into the interior of a CF cell). I would like to seal directly to the wire >without adding anything to the wire (it's expensive Pt). The wire diameter >is 0.018". I've tried -001 O-rings but I can't seem to make them squeeze >down tightly onto the wire. The seal needs to be something that can be >assembled and disassembled...i.e. not epoxy. Custom machining is readily >available. > > > - Scott Little > EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 > 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) Here is a thought: I ---- WIRE I -----I----- ---- THREADED PLASTIC (NYLON) PRESSURE SCREW I I I ---------- I ---------- I / I \ I ---- PLASTIC CASING WITH FLANGED HOLE I \ I / I I / I \ I I \ I / I I / I \ I I \ I / I I / I \ I I \ I / I I /_____I_____\ I I \ I / I I \ I / ------------ COMPRESSED RUBBER CONE IN TWO HALVES I \ I / I ) \--I--/ ( ---- PLASTIC CASING SEALED WITH O-RINGS. I I I I I ------------- I ------------- I Bore out hard platic tubing to make flanged bottom and then cut threads for pressure screw. Drill hole in nylon screw for wire. Machine rubber cone or cylinder with flanged tip. Cut in half vertically so wire can be sandwiched into it. Macine O-ring seals in outer surface of plastic casing. Now larger diameter plastic can be sealed in conventional manner. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 08:54:38 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA01638 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 08:43:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA01627 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 08:43:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQaeek01573; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:43:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA13146; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 08:43:46 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 884342080096054FEPRI; 23 Feb 1996 08:42:08 PST Message-Id: Date: 23 Feb 1996 08:42:08 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: wire seals To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/23/96 08:42:43 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/23/96 04:47 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: wire seals Please be aware---almost all electrolytes will saturate the microscopically por us epoxy with time and make it CONDUCTIVE. Also, expoxy bonds exposed to water long term loosen considerably. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 11:29:02 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA26559 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:15:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA26458 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:14:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.73] ([204.57.193.75]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA04735 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 10:10:28 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 10:19:32 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: wire seals Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Having read my mail I see others were thinking along similar lines. Here is a corrected version of the earlier suggestion, and some additional ideas: I ---- WIRE I -----I----- ---- THREADED PLASTIC (NYLON) PRESSURE SCREW I I I ---------- I ---------- I / I \ I ---- PLASTIC CASING WITH FLANGED HOLE I \ I / I I / I \ I I \ I / I I / I \ I I \ I / I I / I \ I I \ I / I I /_____I_____\ I I \ I / I I \ I / ------------ COMPRESSED RUBBER CONE IN TWO HALVES I \ I / I ) \--I--/ ( ---- PLASTIC CASING SEALED WITH O-RINGS. I I I I I ------------- I ------------- I Bore out hard platic tubing to make flanged bottom and then cut threads for pressure screw. Drill hole in nylon screw for wire. Machine the rubber cone (or cylinder with flanged tip). Cut rubber cone in half vertically to midpoint so wire can be sandwiched into it to the axis. Machine O-ring seal grooves in outer surface of plastic casing. Now larger diameter plastic casing can be sealed in conventional manner. If there is still a problem with the seal it might be useful to run a current through the wire to heat it up enough to melt the rubber in it's vicinity to make a custom sized hole. One way to make a bit for the flanged hole is to put a drill bit into a drill and then use a grinder to grind the rotating tip to a cone of 30 degrees. ANOTHER IDEA: Another possibility is to use a high temperature wax so simply seal the wire into a tube. Just melt the wax to get the wire out. I don't know if there is a wax available that melts at high enough temperature to avoid melting at the temperature of use, but I assume there are waxes that melt above 100 C. Cleaning the wire when you are done should be easy: just put a blowtorch on it and then wipe the carbon off. ANOTHER IDEA: This is a semi-permanent, or disposable, approach that may or may not work well. Use a small glass capilary tube that easily accomodates the wire. Melt the glass and stretch it a short way so that it seals the wire. To get the wire out you simply have to break the glass. To pinch the glass nicely you have to build a jig consisting of a flat base and two veritcal end pieces. A stationary clamp mounted on the left endpiece holds the left end of the glass capillary tube. Between the two end pieces run two metal rods used as tracks for a sliding platform that carries a clamp for the right end of the capillary tube. The sliding platform has two horizontal holes drilled in it for the rods. A rubber band or spring is connected between the right vertical end piece and the sliding platform. A stop, used to stop the sliding motion of the platform, is clamped or screwed to the base. The glass tube is clamped in place with the wire inserted. The stop is positioned to the right of the sliding platform at a distance from the platform so there will be just the right amount of stretching applied to the glass tube to provide a seal (about 1 cm. or less). A blowtorch flame is then applied to the center of the glass tubing, which will suddenly and quickly stretch. A micro-torch might work best. At the seal point the tubing may now be weak, especially if the glass tubing used was thin. It is then useful to use epoxy or some other medium to build up support externally at the narrow portion of the tube. The main trick is in making the stretch long enough to seal but short enough to preserve wall thickness, and obtaining a tube with the inner diameter as close to that of the wire as possible prior to the sealing stretch. It is also useful to use two blowtorches simultaneously to avoid axial distortion at the stretch point. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 12:28:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA06700 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 12:10:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA06672 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 12:10:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-191.austin.eden.com (net-1-191.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.191]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id OAA12100 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:10:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:10:32 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602232010.OAA12100@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: wire seals X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wow! Thanks for all the ideas. Actually every one seemed workable to me. For a variety of reasons that would take too much time to explain, I have chosen something close to the "packing gland" suggestions made by Norman and Horace. This was the last detail in my new cell. It'll be finished on Monday. Now I've got to get the new calorimeter going! From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Fri Feb 23 12:44:07 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA07735 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 12:16:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA07678 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 12:16:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-191.austin.eden.com (net-1-191.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.191]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.3.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id OAA12311 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:13:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:13:28 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602232013.OAA12311@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: bead loading protocol X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Now that we're getting close to having something to test, I'd like to try to get some group consensus on the right loading protocol to use...i.e. how should we start up our cells? I recall seeing in some older issues of Infinite Energy, etc. some details of the loading protocol used by Cravens in his work. I would certainly appreciate it if someone would dig that up and summarize it now. Thanks. Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 20 13:34:45 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA00646 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 13:20:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA00597 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 13:20:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQadub18625; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 16:19:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA13950; Tue, 20 Feb 1996 13:19:04 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 762618130096051FEPRI; 20 Feb 1996 13:18:13 PST Message-Id: Date: 20 Feb 1996 13:18:13 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Not self-educated! To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/20/96 13:18:25 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/20/96 13:01 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Not self-educated! Whoops---I got interupped on my story about the "lower life forms". Seems that bacteria CAN adjust their biochemistry to survive an antibiotic. And after some of them do that in a group---they do two things: A. Pass the information on to their next generation (i.e., this info gets incorporated in their DNA--first generation!) and, by an element called a "plasmid" they can transfer this information to OTHER bacteria nearby in a solution ( of the same species). - Now before anyone says, "Nonsense" this is from a 1995 published, Microbiology textbook, so it is "state of the art" info. - MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 05:18:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id FAA19582 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 05:11:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA19572 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 05:11:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.71] ([204.57.193.71]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA09276 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 04:07:57 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 04:16:43 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: bead loading protocol Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Now that we're getting close to having something to test, I'd like to try to >get some group consensus on the right loading protocol to use...i.e. how >should we start up our cells? > >I recall seeing in some older issues of Infinite Energy, etc. some details >of the loading protocol used by Cravens in his work. > >I would certainly appreciate it if someone would dig that up and summarize >it now. > >Thanks. > >From I.E. V.1 No.2 pp.18-22: BEAD LOADING INFORMATION Fresh beads: 12 hrs Pre-loaded beads: 1 hr. Loading current: .2 to .5 A A constant current supply was used. APPLIES TO: Cell resistance: 135 going up to 160 ohms. Number of beads: 1200 DEDUCTIONS: V=IR, so to calculate the possible range of voltages used for loading: I R V .5 135 67.5 .2 160 32 .5 160 80 .2 135 27 >From the above it appears the loading voltage is about 30V or more. This makes no sense in view of the data shown for 4/9/95 and subsequent days: T V A 21:10 3.29 0.7 9:45 3.8 0.12 18:50 3.43 0.09 12:00 4.15 0.21 It appears there is an error somewhere in the data, or I have a misunderstanding, or the beads weren't loaded in the cell used at ICCF5 to which the above data applies. On another note, even though a constant current supply was used, it makes more sense to me to use a constant voltage supply or, alternatively, to set the current at a value proportional to the number of beads, i.e. .35A/1200 beads = 2.9E-4 A/bead. This is because we each are using a different number of beads and loading per bead is a function of current per bead. You would expect to use 10 times the current to load 10 times the beads in the same period. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 05:40:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id FAA21448 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 05:36:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA21436 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 05:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.71] ([204.57.193.71]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA09325 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 04:32:14 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 04:40:59 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: thermal stratification Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > The effect Scott Little suggests only appears to >occur for asymmetric thermal air stratification. >This is defined as that special case >where either the spatial distribution is asymmetric >or the change in thermal air conductivity with >temperature is non-linear). It does not >appear to be greater than a percent or so of the >result because the special case referred to above >is for the most part not supplied. > [snip] > > Best wishes. > Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) I hate to belabor this dead issue, but I believe stainless steel wells were used and the thermocouples were embedded in epoxy and wrapped in teflon tape. This is a sure formula to maximize the wicking effect. Since the thermocouple is insulated from the well, the temperature measured could be weighted more to the ambient than to the cell temperature. This could affect the results in *either direction* with regard to excess heat. If, as Scott suggests, two dewars were placed around the cell, with a foam separator in the middle, extreme stratification could occur due to more electrical resistance, or more recombination, in the top dewar, which is insulated from the bottom dewar. This would be a *very* asymmetrical distribution. In the case of the Powergen cell, it was wrapped in insulation, in which case the wicking effect would tend to make both readings towards the cell casing top and bottom temperatures, which would have less of a differential than the electrolyte, thus *reducing* the apparent power output. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 06:05:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id GAA23480 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 06:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA23475 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 06:00:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA21659; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 09:00:14 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03024; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 08:59:43 -0500 Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 08:59:43 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602241359.AA03024@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: thermal strat (& capillarity) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner (hheffner@anc.ak.net) writes: Subject: Re: vtx: thermal stratification =hh "I hate to belabor this dead issue, but I believe stainless steel wells were =hh used and the thermocouples were embedded in epoxy and wrapped in teflon =hh tape. This is a sure formula to maximize the wicking effect. Since the =hh thermocouple is insulated from the well, the temperature measured could be =hh weighted more to the ambient than to the cell temperature. This could =hh affect the results in *either direction* with regard to excess heat. If, =hh as Scott suggests, two dewars were placed around the cell, with a foam =hh separator in the middle, extreme stratification could occur due to more =hh electrical resistance, or more recombination, in the top dewar, which is =hh insulated from the bottom dewar. This would be a *very* asymmetrical =hh distribution. In the case of the Powergen cell, it was wrapped in =hh insulation, in which case the wicking effect would tend to make both =hh readings towards the cell casing top and bottom temperatures, which would =hh have less of a differential than the electrolyte, thus *reducing* the =hh apparent power output. In addition to Horace Heffner's analysis, if wicking (the removal of water from the electrolyte by inadvertant capillary action) exists and persists, the total heat capacity of the cell will fall. If the cell was calibrated before the wicking, this effect would *increase* the apparent power, because for the same input power, and an unexpectedly smaller total heat capacity, the temperature would be greater than it would be if there was none of the inadvertant water removal by capillarity. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 09:35:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id JAA19100 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 09:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA19060 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 09:27:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-140.austin.eden.com (net-1-107.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.107]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.4.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id LAA02438 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 11:27:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 11:27:32 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602241727.LAA02438@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: loading discrepancies X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thanks for this: >From I.E. V.1 No.2 pp.18-22: >BEAD LOADING INFORMATION >Fresh beads: 12 hrs >Pre-loaded beads: 1 hr. >Loading current: .2 to .5 A >A constant current supply was used. But doesn't .2-.5 amps sound high for loading? The usual suggestion is to load slow and then increase for excess heat production. As I recall, the typical current used by Cravens DURING excess heat production is around 0.1 amps. That means we need to use less than 0.1 amps during loading....??? Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 09:36:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id JAA19103 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 09:27:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA19075 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 09:27:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-140.austin.eden.com (net-1-107.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.107]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.4.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id LAA02435 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 11:27:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 11:27:31 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602241727.LAA02435@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: thermal strat (& capillarity) X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell says, in response to Horace: >if wicking (the removal of water from the electrolyte by >inadvertant capillary action) exists and persists, the total heat capacity >of the cell will fall. Horace, weren't you talking about "thermal wicking"...not the actual transport of water? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 10:21:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id KAA12239 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 10:24:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA11989 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 10:22:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id NAA13350; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 13:19:16 -0500 Date: 19 Feb 96 13:17:32 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: A surprising interview Message-ID: <960219181731_100433.1541_BHG48-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex The (UK) Independent Radio people came to interview me about CF this morning, apparently they will have three short items on each day of Science Week next month. That is of course going to cover many subjects - it will be a lot of sound-bite stuff apparently. To my great surprise, they had done their homework since speaking with Dr Williams last week, they'd had dipped their fingers into the cyber-sewer of s.p.f, and had contacted both Fiat and Motorola - who had each told them to get lost. To my even greater surprise, they had been asking around among physicists here about CF, and had been told by "a majority" that (though they were unwilling to be quoted, and seemed not entirely sure) "there does seem to be something to all this CF business". That really startled me, and may well account for the very much more positive approach they had to me than they did on the telephone early last week - when they had seemed very negative. I think they seemed a trifle surprised that I was after nobody's blood, and that I had little that was good to say about "our side". I did say, when asked, that we didn't expect much general interest from the science community at large until commercial applications appeared. When asked why we are so open-minded about checking "weird stuff", I had to say that I didn't think we were open-minded, that the purest form of scepticism is to observe and test - then report what one sees. Actually, I think it went well - but we'll have to wait and see what the broadcast stuff is like. I think that they were rather surprised that I refused to advocate any of the theories of CF. I did say that evidence for nuclear effects was very strong, and that many believed that these were the energy source; but that I had seen no conclusive evidence that the two were related. I explained that in the CETI cell there appeared to be no clear evidence of anything nuclear going on. They commented that the existence of the heat appeared to be generally accepted and asked what the remaining argument of the sceptics was (we'd discussed the replications and who'd done them). I said that from what I'd seen, the "Skeptics" were reduced to objecting to the results because of the lack of any known mechanism. They said that their own research agreed with what I said. Amazing, innit? Chris PS Yes, the onus is on others to check that mit.edu WWW page. My machine is too low-spec to access the web. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 13:33:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA16509 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 14:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA16472 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 14:55:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA17957; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 17:54:17 -0500 Date: 21 Feb 96 17:52:07 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Statement from Bowles on s.p.f. Message-ID: <960221225207_72240.1256_EHB130-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex MEANT TO TYPE: Bowles says that "CETI is doing all the wrong things." I couldn't agree more! - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 13:36:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA01789 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:37:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA01692 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:37:12 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC@AOL.COM Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA18022 for vortex-L@eskimo.com; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 17:35:37 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 17:35:37 -0500 Message-ID: <960223173536_430069854@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: seal Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I tried many substances while sealing entries into my vacuum device. Epoxy was to hard and leaked. What really worked good was automotive gunk. You can get it at any hardware store. It is strong and flexible..forming the perfect vacuum seal. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 13:47:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id SAA23729 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 18:15:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA23703 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 18:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA04131; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 21:15:35 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27475; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 21:14:54 -0500 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 21:14:54 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602220214.AA27475@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: soup & suppose Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hal, you might also include the phonon coupled reactions which were discussed in the ICCF-4 "Catastrophic Active Medium theory of cold fusion". The solid state also allows other contributions to the reactions (both "in" and "out" a la Moessbauer type couplings). Mitchell From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 13:53:45 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA05215 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA05206 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:31:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c3p6.aa.net (s3c3p6.aa.net [204.157.220.162]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA04100 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:30:24 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602220330.TAA04100@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 19:31:03 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Dr Who etc Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >I like that. I shall steal these comments for my own use. I take to heart >Tom Lehrer's philosophy on the advancement of science through plagiarism. > >Chris > please do ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 14:03:45 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA09295 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 03:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA09283 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 03:31:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p5.aa.net (s3c0p5.aa.net [204.157.220.137]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA19307 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 03:31:25 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602211131.DAA19307@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 03:30:57 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: vtx: Re: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I am going to Pheonix Az in March. Does anyone know the number of the person >who has the ZP energy company in Pheonix. I would like to visit with him >while I am there if I can. > > >Frank Znidarsic contact Reed Huish reedh@indirect.com ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 13:55:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA09414 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 03:32:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA09393 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 03:32:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p5.aa.net (s3c0p5.aa.net [204.157.220.137]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA19332 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 03:31:59 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602211131.DAA19332@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 03:31:31 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: vtx: Mass Spec Required Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Is there anyone within Vortex who is in a position to run mass spectrometry to determine exact isotopic ratios on a small sample. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 14:09:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA06799 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 11:19:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from oroboros.demon.co.uk (oroboros.demon.co.uk [158.152.100.96]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA06714 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 11:19:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:10:59 GMT From: CRSM@oroboros.demon.co.uk (Chris Morriss) Message-Id: <16507@oroboros.demon.co.uk> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Not self-educated! X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Lines: 14 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yes it is off-topic but covers an area that I find most interesting. Do these results now mean that a 'Lamarckian' view of the evolutionary process is becoming more respectable? I've always thought that the only way that organisms have evolved in such a short time period is for some form of 'Inheritance of acquired characteristics'. A short time? I know it sounds silly but the time frame really is short when you consider the changes that have happened. A good read on the subject is the book 'The neck of the Giraffe: or where Darwin went wrong'. It IS a serious book, not something from a mid-west fundementalist, or even, (on the other side), the un-scientific ravings of Richard Dawkins. -- Chris Morriss From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 14:25:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA05234 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:31:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA05216 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c3p6.aa.net (s3c3p6.aa.net [204.157.220.162]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA04106 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:30:26 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602220330.TAA04106@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 19:31:05 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Vortex, Newcomers, Culture, Multiple Messages Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:35 AM 2/21/96 -0500, you wrote: >Michael Mandeville wrote: >>... >>P.S. Additional aside on the Patterson cell. Hardly anyone on Vortex gives >>a damn what is theoretically possible or not, although a few will disagree >>with this statement on some level or another. Most on Vortex are interested >>in exploring phenomenon, whether explained or understood or not, thus this >>is definitely an experimenter's communication medium, not a theoretician's >>communication channel. >> ... > >I, for one definitely disagree strongly with this statement and I >wonder on information what you base this opinion. > >Cheers, >Bill Page. > > Well, if I am going to fall into this setup, I intend to do so with some care so fun can be had by all. Give me a little time to work on this... ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 14:36:31 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA06364 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 11:17:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA06184 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 11:16:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamltndt.cias.com (hamltndt.cais.com [205.252.26.60]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.10/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA23513 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 14:16:36 -0500 Message-ID: <312B7019.394A@cais.com> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 14:18:49 -0500 From: Danny and Terry Hamilton X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0GoldB1 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Handel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Peter H. Handel I continue my research on the Quantum 1/f Effect which describes undamental fluctuations in the physical cross-sections and process rates of Quantum Mechanics, important in most modern high-technology industrial applications. Support is available for PhD studies in this field. On May 27- 28, 1994, I organized and chaired the 6th van der Ziel Symposium on "Quantum 1/f Noise and other Low-Frequency Fluctuations" at the UMSL (Sponsored by AFOSR). I also solved the excess heat puzzle of cold fusion. I am the plenary speaker at the IEE Frequency Control Symposium in Boston June 1-3, 1994. In 1993, I organized and chaired the 12th International Conference on Noise in Physical Systems here in St. Louis. Finally, I continue the research in the Quantum 1/f Theory and experiment (I now have a lab), on my polarization catastrophe theory of atmospheric electricity, on variants of cold fusion, and on my maser-soliton approach to ball lightning which I also direct in Moscow. I found this on the net at http://newton.umsl.edu/research.html "I also solved the excess heat puzzle of cold fusion. "????? -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Danny and Terry Hamilton hamltndt@cais.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 14:38:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA09426 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 03:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA09408 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 03:32:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p5.aa.net (s3c0p5.aa.net [204.157.220.137]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA19339 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 03:32:01 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602211132.DAA19339@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 03:31:33 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: A request to M.Mandeville,H.Heffner,D.Britz Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:23 PM 2/18/96 +0100, you wrote: >-M.Mandeville mentioned,in a previous message,the existence of a manuscript >of R.Monti on transmutations.Have you informations if you could enable me >to read this manuscript? >- to H.Heffner : you mentioned the possibility to give me help in finding= works >on the transmutations published by vortex(?!) or by Internet? May you help= me? >-dr. Dieter Britz,I know that you prepare (?!) a bibliografy of titles or= =20 >papers in >relation (?!) to vortex-l.May you give me some indications how to obtaine papers >where the experimentation and the obtained results were exposed in detail? >Thank You. Sincerely.Elio Conte >--- >Prof Elio Conte >Centro Studi Radioattivit=E0 e Radioecologia >Libero Istituto Universitario Internazionale Bari, Italia > > Professor, Monti's last coordinates in Italy were: Dr. Roberto Monti Consiglio Nazionale Delle Ricerche Istituto T.E.S.R. Via Gobetti 101 40129 Bologna Italy About a year or so ago he started working full time in North America in the fusiona transmutation field on a hush hush project. I do not know how to reach him rapidly, but they do forward letters to him from the Istituto. Joe Champion has promised shortly Roberto's latest coordinates in North= America. I will call Roberto and ask him to contact you. Meanwhile, you probably ought to contact him through T.E.S.R. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 14:55:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA00194 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA00101 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:27:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA00619; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 17:25:46 -0500 Date: 23 Feb 96 16:59:47 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Subject: vtx: bead loading protocol Message-ID: <960223215947_72240.1256_EHB150-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; Scott Little > INTERNET:little@eden.com Scott Little asks: "Now that we're getting close to having something to test, I'd like to try to get some group consensus on the right loading protocol to use...i.e. how should we start up our cells? I recall seeing in some older issues of Infinite Energy, etc. some details of the loading protocol used by Cravens in his work." The rule is Load Slow. That's critical with both Ni and Pd. Quoting Craven's ICCF4 paper (which is a gem, by the way): "It is important that the initial loading of Pd be done slowly and carefully. The object is to us a low current density (30 to 60 mA/cm^2) so that there will not be unequal expansion and the development of large internal stresses. IMPORTANT -- Do not be tempted to raise the current about 100 mA/cm^2 until the ratio within the lattice is at least above 0.6 or 0.7 range. . . ." I was sitting behind Martin Fleischmann when Dennis gave that talk, and I distinctly remember hearing him mutter "exactly right!" when Dennis said that. Look at the loading profile in P&F's papers. Dennis repeats the Load Slow rule in discussions of the Patterson cell, even though Ni does not expand as much as Pd: "There is an initial loading period required of the beads. This is about hours for fresh beads and only 1 hour for pre-loaded beads. This is conducted by using a constant current supply set at 0.2 to 0.5 amps. The cell's resistance gradually changes from 135 to 160 ohms. This is thought to be due to hydride production on the surface of the beads. The temperature between the inlet and outlet gradually increases towards the end of the loading period." Infinite Energy No. 2, p. 20 and Proc. ICCF5 p. 81 He doesn't say it here, but in his discussion he emphasized the importance of keeping the current low during the initial loading period. Let it cook slowly. Once it gets primed (okay, hydrided), it stays primed, and you can jack up the current as quickly as you like, as often as you like. Pd, on the other hand, has to be handled with care over the lifetime of the cathode, which is only a few months in most cases, after which is swells up and self destructs, according to Ed Storms. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 14:56:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id OAA04270 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 14:50:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA04235 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 14:50:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c3p7.aa.net (s3c3p7.aa.net [204.157.220.163]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA13578 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 14:49:56 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602242249.OAA13578@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 14:49:28 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: A surprising interview Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:17 PM 2/19/96 EST, you wrote: >To:Vortex > >The (UK) Independent Radio people came to interview me about CF this morning, >apparently they will have three short items on each day of Science Week next >month. That is of course going to cover many subjects - it will be a lot of >sound-bite stuff apparently. > >To my great surprise, they had done their homework since speaking with Dr >Williams last week, they'd had dipped their fingers into the cyber-sewer of >s.p.f, and had contacted both Fiat and Motorola - who had each told them to >get lost. > >To my even greater surprise, what I said... > >Amazing, innit? > >Chris > >PS Yes, the onus is on others to check that mit.edu WWW page. My machine is >too low-spec to access the web. > Thankss for the briefing Chris. I attach great importance to such briefings because I believe that it helps inventors to assess the client of opinion out there. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 14:58:55 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA11844 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 12:42:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA11206; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 12:37:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c1p2.aa.net (s1c0p0.aa.net [204.157.220.164]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA06187; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 12:34:12 -0800 Message-Id: <199602232034.MAA06187@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 12:33:51 +0800 To: American Bank USA , dalevine@exo.com, support@aa.net, mmat-new@seatimes.com, steve@booksatoz.com, wchipman@axionet.com, freenrg-list@eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: vtx: NETIZENS ALERT #2 Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FYI: regarding the moneypage javascript flap, please note the experience of another user below: This is important information, Peter. They crashed your system twice. At 08:45 AM 2/23/96 -0800, you wrote: >Now that you mention it > >1 The first time I cnnected to emoney my computer froze shortly >thereafter. I could not Ctrl-alt-delete and upon rebbot my univ script >was damaged and had to be repaired. > >2. Yesterday based on your message i again accessed emoney. shortly >thereafter my computer froze. I wen to bed and left it as is. This >morning my minorit was off and wouldnot restart. I movedit to anke's >computer and took hers (it worked on mine) I tried mine on hers an dgot a >green light but nothing on the screen. So I am buying anew one > How old is the monitor? It could easily be their fault. I am highly suspecious of the connection in time. It was dumb of you to leave the system on but...it was feckless reckless of them to set yuou up like this. Prepare your bill, Pete, cost of monitor, time to get it, lost time on the computer, etc. If money page doesnt pay it, SUN or Netscape will. Believe me...I am going to go for the jugular of the heart of the beast. Do you see why I call them reckless? This java stuff is going to have all kinds of unforeseen consequences and the average browser out there like you is gonna be MUGGED in cyberspace without even understanding it. This doesnt just make me angry. It makes me profoundly determined...We have got to stand up to this garbage and face it down. That means we gotta shout LOUDLY. We have got to get Netscape and Sun to do a complete reconsider about this javajiveshit. WE ARE GOING TO NEED TO CONVINCE ISP's the length and breadth of cyberspace that under no circumstances is java gonna get dispensed from their server. Spamming is nothing compared to the havoc javajiveshit is gonna create. >I don't have the competence to judge whether this has anything to do with >e-money. > it absolutely did. >Your send message to them i read and you sound like you know what you are >talking about. I hope you win. if you really want me to I'll send your >first letter outover my 50 or so lists that I am subscribed to. I hope >that doesn't come under attack as irresponsible slander etc from them. hold on, I am plotting a master strategy. >Are you sure you want me to do it?????? >an we have a drink over this tonight. I miss you. Sorry i'm so wraped up >in so much. Love you. > > be there this afternoon > >Dr. Pyotr Johannevich van de Waal-Palms, Sovetnik Pravitelstva CWA, >Tovarichestvo Palmsa, Inc., Washington, USA >World Wide Web home pages - Palms Portal to Russia- The Baltics & CIS >(500Mb) data 7000 URL links: http://www.aa.net/~russia >To subscribe discussion group send message to: >In message text type: subscribe palmport-list > > > ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 15:03:47 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA09401 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 03:32:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA09387 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 03:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p5.aa.net (s3c0p5.aa.net [204.157.220.137]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA19329 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 03:31:55 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602211131.DAA19329@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 03:31:26 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: vtx: Seattle Carpool to INE 96 symposium Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Are there any folks from Seattle's Weird Science Club or Vortex or Free Energy Listserv members in the Pacific Northwest who want to car pool down to the April conference? Looks like this is going to be the emergent event for a number of things... We might even carpool down in a motor home...and drive back via Nevada's "Extraterrestrial Highway". Give a shout soon... At 07:35 PM 2/15/96 +0100, you wrote: > >> International Symposium on New Energy >> >> April 25-28 >> >> at the Denver Hilton South Hotel, Denver, Colorado >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>Key Speakers >> >>Dennis Cravens on the Patterson Fuel Cell >>Mark Hendershot on the Hendershot Motor >>Harold Puthoff on Zero Point Energy >>Jim Griggs on the Griggs Hydrosonic Pump >>Eugene Mallove on Cold Fusion >>Tom Valone on Free Energy & Propulsion >>Edgar Mitchell (former Apollo astronaut) on New Energy >> >>Other Speakers >> >>Harold Aspden on Ferromagnetics >>Robert Emmerich on Measuring Energy >>John Grow on Antigravity >>William Hyde on the Hyde Electrostatic Generator >>Scott Klaumizio on Power from food oils >>Ron Kovac on Transmutation of elements >>Peter Linderman on Thermodynamics >>Roy McAllister on Hydrogen Energy >>Bill Mulle on the Magnetic Motor Generator >>Dale Pond on the Keely Motor >>Troy Reed on the Reed Magnetic More and related research >>Bert Werjefelt on the Magnetic Motor >>Charles Yost on Electric Spacecraft Propulsion >>Paulo Correa on Pulse Abnormal Glow Discharges >>Hal Fox on Cold Fusion >>John Hutchinson on Antigravity and the Energy Convertor >>Russ James on the Magnetic Emission Reduction Device >>Don Kelly with his Free energy update >>Win Lambertson on Solid State Energy Conversion >>Jeanne Manning on the Upcoming Energy Revolution >>Andrew Michrowski on Free Energy in a Self-Sustaining Home >>Brian O'Leary on his book, Miracle in the Void >>Wing Pon with a Unified Theory of Free Energy >>Pierre Sinclair on the Hammill Magnetic Gravitational Drive >>Dan Winter on Gravitational Energy and its relationship to Emotion >>and many more >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>Itinerary >> >>April 25 - Thursday Evening Workshops 6:30PM - 9:30PM >>April 26 - Friday Lectures 8:30AM - 5:00PM >> Evening Workshops 6:30PM - 9:30PM >>April 27 - Saturday Lectures 8:30AM - 5:00PM >> Evening Workshops 6:30PM - 9:30PM >>April 28 - Sunday Lectures 8:30AM - 5:00PM >> Evening Workshops 6:30PM - 9:30PM >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>Details >> >>Location Denver Hilton South Hotel, 7801 East Orchard Road, Englewood, >>Colorado 80111 (south part of Denver) A private shuttle bus is available from >>the airport. Purchase tickets at ground transportation. Hotel reservations at >>1.800.327.2242 >> >>Hotel room rates are $59 for a single and a block of rooms has been reserved, >>please mention that you are with the ISNE conference in April. >> >>Registration - before March 1 - $200 >> between March 1 and April 1 - $250 >> after April 1 - $300 >> Workshops - $20 each >> Banquet - $25 >> >>Additional information from International Association of New Science, 1304 >>South College Avenue, Fort Collins, CO 970.482.3731 FAX 970.482.3120 >>Make checks payable to International Association for New Science. >> >>Memberships to IANS $35. >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >If anybody from this list here will attend over there, please post a summary >of the results of this event. > >As I live in Germany I have no chance to go there in April. > >Thanks a lot in advance. > >Regards, Stefan. >-- >Hartmann Multimedia Service _Buy our Internet MPEG CD-ROM ! Visit the WEB_ >Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann _site below !_ >Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany >Tel: ++ 49 30 344 23 66 FAX: ++ 49 30 344 92 79 >email: harti@ddd.snafu.de harti@bbtt.com >Web site: http://www.bbtt.com/harti/harti.html > > > > ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 15:09:08 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id NAA19949 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 13:29:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA19811 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 13:28:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA22177; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 16:27:33 -0500 Date: 23 Feb 96 16:23:28 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Why nickel, why beads Message-ID: <960223212328_72240.1256_EHB83-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I have been thinking about the materials and geometry in the CETI bead cathodes. I have had some interesting discussions about this topic with Hal Fox, Ed Storms and Gene Mallove. Here is the consensus. At ICCF4, Miley, Hora, Batyrobekov and Zich presented a paper titled "Electrolytic Cell with Multilayer Thin-film Electrodes" (Fusion Tech. Vol. 26, p. 313). They described cathodes built up on 25 x 25 x 3 mm stainless steel or copper plates. Twelve alternating layers of CF host metals are deposited on the plates: Pd, Ti, Pd, Ti, topped with a barrier layer of Cr. This reminds me of a 12 layer Dubish Torte topped with a layer of melted sugar. Yum! (Don't let me get started on that.) Results were as follows: "Several separate experiments were carried out. In each case, shortly after start-up, the temperature of the multilayer-cathode cell was consistently 1.5 +/-0.5 deg C higher than that of the reference cell. However, the length of the experimental runs was limited to <=2 hours, due to damage to the cathode caused by the flaking of the thin film. The observed temperature increase prior to flaking corresponds to ~2 KW/cm^3 energy production in the thin-film interface region (assuming the reaction occurs, as predicted by the SEL theory, in a thin layer extending one electron-Debye-length from the surface.)" The cathodes got hot alright, but they soon self-destructed by flaking apart. I suppose these encouraging yet frustrating results prompted Miley's interest in Patterson's work. Anyway, the question is: Why did these cathodes flake apart, and why do the Patterson beads hold together? There are three main reasons. First, the Patterson beads do not always hold together. The thin film layers sometimes crack, flake apart, and sometimes it does not absorb enough hydrogen to work. Some beads fail but others work. This is a redundant, fail safe system. That's one outstanding features of the design. Second, Ed Storms pointed out that Pd and Ti both absorb a lot of hydrogen, and swell up, whereas Ni absorbs very little. Ed thinks this swelling plus the heat from the reaction caused the destruction, and he thinks the Ni CF reaction must be at the surface or near surface because the metal cannot absorb hydrogen to deep layers in the reported loading times. (Srinivasan has some old studies that show it may absorb more than most people think.) Third, the shape. Beads have a big advantage: they're round (and not square either!) They have no edges where flaking can begin. They are strong because, you might say, the material holds on to itself, reaching around the sphere in self-reinforcing hoop-like structures, like the rubber bands inside a golf ball. Spheres have other big advantages too, besides strength. Imagine you filled a cell with a thousand little bricks or pyramids. Many of the faces would touch one another, preventing the electrolyte from reaching them. Imagine you filled a cell with thousands of little needles, stars, or randomly convoluted shapes. They would be too delicate. You have to press them together to ensure conductivity, which would break them. A single large plate cathode, like the original Miley design, has much less surface area than thousands of small items. Material like sand or palladium black has the most surface area, but that's another story. I think spheres are and may remain the best choice. The beads may also hold together because superior techniques are used make the Ni adhere to the substrate. I don't know about that, and I would be very interested in hearing from someone who does. Patterson said his beads hold together better than they used to, so he must have done something to make them stick. The substrate bead material does not swell up as much when it gets hot. It has been suggested that thinner layers would shed heat better, preventing damage. That will be interesting to find out about too. We have a lot to learn about these beads -- "we" including Patterson. If the technology succeeds, his will not be the only lucrative patent for this branch of the technology. James Watt got the first patent for a modern steam engine in 1782, but there have been lots of other patents granted for improvements since then. The technology, which evolved into steam turbines, is still going strong and still generating patents today. IBM invented the first "Winchester" hard disk back in the late 1970s (as I recall) but there have been many improvements & patents since, culminating in this 1.6 gigabyte disk I recently installed, for such a low price that even I would not have believed it possible ten years ago. I mention that because some investors I am contact expressed a sense of discouragement, as if Patterson has beat them to it, cold fusion has now been invented once and for all, and the game is over. It is not over, it has just begun. The opportunities for improvements, patents, and profits are beyond all imagination. By the way, I was trying to explain to Bill Page why we think this forum is home to more experimenters than theorists. I don't know if my message got through, but the expression I was looking for is: Radio Traffic Intelligence. That's how the U.S. Navy kept tabs on the Japanese Navy during WWII, even when they could not decode the messages. I cannot decode many of the messages here but I can tell that most of them come from the experimenter's corner, rather than the theory side. Maybe that's because people interested in experiments have big mouths. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 15:15:51 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id DAA09378 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 03:31:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA09369 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 03:31:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p5.aa.net (s3c0p5.aa.net [204.157.220.137]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA19326 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 03:31:43 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602211131.DAA19326@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 03:31:15 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: vtx: Vortex, Newcomers, Culture, Multiple Messages Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:12 AM 2/19/96 -0500, you wrote: >MITCH SWARTZ WRITES: >> Jed, if you spent more time developing a broader scientific background, >>you would find that calibration is required for ALL calorimeters. >>Caveat emptor.and later >> Apparently you disagree with this. Many theoreticians would be out of >>work if your attitude was generally held. > >Just a comment. This discussion starts looking like spf. The reason a lot of >us came to vortex was to get away from the non-productive slamming that was >going on. I'm sure these comments aren't meant as slams, but they sound like >it to me. >-- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Danny and Terry Hamilton >hamltndt@cais.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Thank you newcomers (I think, or have you been lurking for awhile?) Danny and Terry Hamilton. I agree. Questioning a person's background inadequacies accomplishes nothing. We who have been here from the beginning have adapted the policy that we here are all weird and totally inadequate in the face of the unknown. That settles the credentials issue decisively. The only thing that matters is helping each other sort out what the facts are and what the issues are for resolving greater clarity. Those are the only things that matter, though a little humor and a few philosphical asides, and even an occassional rant against institutional stupidity is tolerated and even sometimes appreciated. Staking out a strong position is also allowable, in fact is necessary for dialog which moves somewhere, as long as the position is based on the facts, not the sociology, politics, nominal education, status, or putative personal characteristics of the individual. A strong position or assertion of "new facts" such as over unity will be totally ignored, without denouncement, without flames (but no doubt a short challenge or two), unless it is accompanied by a willingness to share the facts which lead one to the conclusion...that means sharing the invention in a manner which can be checked out by Vortexians, some of whom are remarkably mobile. Many vortexians are URGENTLY on the hunt and over the past year have demonstrated that they will go to great lengths to check things out, but they are all from Missouri (except for Tinsley, who seems to have flapped in from some delightfully quaint English dimension (I secretly suspect he is working for Dr. Who)) and they gotta see it to believe it. We have seen a major dissappointment, namely the Potapov machine. We have seen a major coup check out, namely, the Patterson cell. And there are hints of many other really interesting things which are on the way to working themselves into some visability... The key to this is to maintain a sincere, not formal, but sincere appreciation to look at the claims, not relegate the inventor to feelings of inadequacy because he didnt grow up with the right brand of shoelaces. There are many inventors lurking here, some of whom are capable of bringing some incredibly mind-blowing claims into this arena for us to check out. There is no "not invented here" syndrome, there is no academic pecking order here, there is no competing division here, no conflicting career imperatives. There simply are people who want to cooperate in being involved with the emergence of new paradigms. The thing that probably is most in common with Vortexians is absolute fatigue with "camp positions" and "status games". So we are hanging out here on the edge of unknown and what keeps us going is the realization that we can get some remarkable help from what I am beginning to think of as the world's first self-articulating freelance intelligence network. Some of the stuff we check out here may be "unknowable" in the final analysis, but we can still look at the educational mind stretching results of even a null result and see a positive. I sense, however, that there is such an influx of new lurkers and commenters, that it will be increasingly difficult to maintain our cross cultural, cross institutional lil ole neighborhood of dedicated critical analysis which is designed to help explore as opposed to winning converts by bravado. The task is not helped by the multiple messaging which Eskimo is occassionally doing, overloading our ability to sort throught this stuff. Okay, that's this month's sermon... Bill, I got over a hundred messages, twice. Some of them three times!!! Ouch. Chris, if you by chance read this, I'm sorry, but I can't help myself from playing into your literary style of making you a character. This is very silly of me, perhaps presumptious, and if this offends you, I will drop it. P.S. Additional aside on the Patterson cell. Hardly anyone on Vortex gives a damn what is theoretically possible or not, although a few will disagree with this statement on some level or another. Most on Vortex are interested in exploring phenomenon, whether explained or understood or not, thus this is definitely an experimenter's communication medium, not a theoretician's communication channel. Some of the recent posts on CF are coming from a theoretical position, asking theortical inferences about what is probable connected to CF and/or Patterson Cell. These conversatons probably won't go very far. I like Deng's philosophy about theory, "it doesn't matter what color the cat is, so long as it catches mice". In regard to both CF and the Patterson Cell, it seems to be clear that nobody knows yet what color the cat is, but it is reasonably clear, from the mice tails on the sidewalk, that there is a cat around. The first task is to bag that sucker and stick him down in the basement to do some useful work. Then we'll figure out what color it is. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 15:19:32 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA11279 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 12:38:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA11173; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 12:37:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c1p2.aa.net (s1c0p0.aa.net [204.157.220.164]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA06200; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 12:34:25 -0800 Message-Id: <199602232034.MAA06200@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 12:34:03 +0800 To: ptech@seatimes.com, wchipman@axionet.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com, freenrg-list@eskimo.com, steve@booksatoz.com, dalevine@exo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: vtx: NETIZENS ALERT #3 Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 23:24:39 +0800 >To: BARON, Burt Webb, Palms' Net, Gary Hawkins, Dan Levine >From: Michael Mandeville >Subject: REPEAT: CEASE AND DESIST YOUR JAVASCRIPT > >FYI, my response to an email message to me by Chuck Lawson at the Moneypage, whose email message basically told me to get lost. > >At 11:20 PM 2/22/96 -0600, you wrote: >>Dear Mr. Mandeville; >> >>A $158 small claims judgement in the middle of nowhere sounds boring. > >thanks for the sympathy, I just really love the time I wasted at your site. > > The idea of a >>class-action suit is interesting, however - there ought to be a lot of good publicity in >>that, > >what is your point? > >>and the odds of a judgement for your "pain and suffering" > >There is no pain and suffering. There is lost time resulting from your snare. > >>due to you going voluntarily to a web site > >there is no point here > >>that takes advantage of the features of the browser you >>voluntarily run, > >yeah, like a rabbit being caught in a snare. >can't you see the ethical problem here? > >>by running a JavaScript applet that is currently in use around much of >>the 'net > >hogwash, these are barely in use and in accordance with the problems I encountered at your site, there seems an urgent need to immediately back off and think through a set of standards about their proper use. > >>seem real slim > >that's no issue > >- even in Microsoft country. > >is this an innuendo? I have no more connection to or reqard for Microsoft and than I have for the average man on the street. The same can be said for most folks around here. > > >> >>We assume you're pursuing similar actions against all of those other "YUPPIE JUNGLE >>CRAPPY" sites also running JavaScript applets, such as netscape.com, cnet.com, >>hotwired.com, ad nauseum, many of which are running the exact same status-bar scroller >>script you complain about. > >I have not seen any of them. I am responding only to your site. > >> >>In short, get a life. > >precisely my point, Chuck, I'm glad you caught the idea, a life with a decent respect for the actual need of humanity. Your use of my cpu without my premission in reckless disregard for the consequences to me is impossibly boorish. > >>If you don't like the page, don't use it. > >It has nothing to do with like or dislike of your pages. You have an attractively designed format and a lot of good information there. It has to do with the good sixty minutes of my time which your software stole from me, causing my system to crash. YOU HAVE AN EXTREMELY BUGGY PROGRAM. > >The internet was designed to be a freely cooperative medium based on certain international standards, conventions, by which people could expect what was going to be present and know how to use it. Your imposition of commercially motivated software, without offering a choice, is in complete contravention to those standards and the trust which they have engendered. > > >>If you don't like Java >>or JavaScript, disable it > >I do not know what Java is and have not the foggiest idea of how to disable it. > >If you want to use Java, I propose you offer a frontispiece page which advises people that you use Java, that it has caused crash problems, and that it may be advisable to disable Java, along with instructions about how to do so. > >Anything less than that is an arrogant disregard of the needs of internet users, which you now know for certain will have problems with JAVA. Imposition of this program at your site in its present form is a CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGEROUS SNARE and is in gross contravention of the cooperative internet protocols. > >>or use a different browser. > >How dare you tell me what browser I will chose to use? It is none of your dammn business. You are the one who urgently needs to get real. > >>If you persist in any more of >>this, we WILL be more than happy to turn the matter over to our corporate counsel, > >If you cannot grasp the fundamental technical and ethical issues here, you most certainly had better immediately refer this matter to your corporate attorney. I am quite hopeful he/she will demonstrate far better sense than you are. > >>who'd >>like nothing better than to have an excuse to expand his staff - there's good publicity >>in online libel cases these days too, and a significant amount of precident has been >>established over the past few months. >> > >The only libel hinting so far in this interaction is your innuendo. I have stated nothing but facts. > >>Further, and to be very specific, please consider yourself informed that we will >>consider any further messages on this topic in the tone of the message copied below >>concerning our facilities, either in email or in Usenet, as at least harassment, and >>very possibly libelous, and we won't hesitate to pursue the matter. To that end, we've >>taken the liberty of cc:ing this response, including your quoted original message, to >>your ISP, to make them aware of this possibility in the event that they should be named >>a correspondant in such action. They may also wish to consider whether they care to >>consider your message as an issue under section 4 of their posted Terms and Conditions. >> > >How dare you posture with this sniveling attempt at intimidation? > > >All right then, > >IT IS WAR. I AM GOING TO USE THE FULL POWER OF COMMUNICATION AT MY COMMAND TO CREATE A CLIMATE OF OPINION WHICH CONVINCES YOU NOT TO ATTEMPT TO DO BUSINESS IN THIS MANNER. > > >but first, I insist that you immediately have your CEO or equivilent, with good corporate counsel as advisory, communicate with me. I will start there. > >Then, I am fully prepared to use every channel... >Let me tell you something. I am a tough old bastard who isn't going to take anybody's bullshit. I am highly educated and have a profound understanding of politics and law...and media...and great skill at communication and debate. Your attempts to play games with my reasonably justified outrage at being snared on your parking lot, makes me laugh. I'll take this as far as you guys wanna play until you cry uncle. You did wrong. You are going to correct it. It is that simple. > >In fact, this is stimulating me to think in very creative directions. I am thinking of using this incident and your website as an example of the need for USERs to take over the definition of the creation of standards for the internet. Most certainly, I am going to be in communication with Sun, Netscape, and Microsoft, in fact, I already am. There are fundamental socio-technical issues which are embodied in your use of the net. I can think of several dozen usenet groups as well as several dozen print media which need to examine these issues. Most certainly, all of your linkees need to think these issues through in greater detail. > >>Finally, just to set the record straight, there are not now, nor have there ever been >>any Java applets running on The Money Page. There is, as mentioned above, a JavaScript >>applet - a very different thing indeed. It seems somewhat amusing that someone whose >>personal web page devotes so much space to promoting themselves as a "cutting edge" web >>page developer can't tell the difference - particularly when the story is all available >>with a simple "view source". Since you made a point of making it appear that your >>message was going to multiple recipients, you may want to hope that none of your >>potential customers were on the list, or are sharp enough to notice. >> > >I don't give a damn about Javascript or Java Applets or the difference. I do not consider them cutting edge. I have a completely different concept of the world and where it is moving, what is useful and what is not. But thank you for informing me of the correct terminology for referring to your page's technology. > >I REPEAT: > >CEASE AND DESIST YOUR USE OF THE JAVASCRIPT ON YOUR HOMEPAGE. > >SEND THE $158 you owe me to: MW Mandeville, 22025 N.E. Redmond Fall City Road, Redmond, WA 98053 > >PLUS, ONE HOUR OF ADDITIONAL TIME IN ADDRESSING THESE ISSUES ONCE AGAIN WITH YOU IN AN ATTEMPT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND THE IMPLICATIONS OF WHAT YOU ARE DOING. > >The total therefore is now $316. > >and please, fax this immediately to you CEO or President and his/her counsel. > >>Have a nice day. >> >>- All of your friends @ The Money Page >> > >I hope you have an informed day, Chuck > > > ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 15:40:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA08966 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 08:58:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix2.ix.netcom.com (ix2.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA08875 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 08:57:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from by ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id HAA00182; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 07:17:20 -0800 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 07:17:20 -0800 Message-Id: <199602221517.HAA00182@ix2.ix.netcom.com> From: aki@ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: Re: vtx: Thiotimoline Simple questions To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You wrote: > > ************** > I thought cosmoline is a grease and rust inhibitor for storing or >helping to store and preserve vehicles, equipment and so on .... true? > Or is this humor? > aha,ha,ha,ha--- excuse me, just trying to get a handle on british droll humour and the responses! -AK- From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 15:43:19 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA11821 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 12:18:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA11784 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 12:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id MAA08361; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 12:17:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 12:17:50 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: A Cautionary Tale Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: jlogajan@skypoint.com Subject: Re: vtx: A Cautionary Tale To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 10:25:01 -0600 (CST) Mike Carrell writes: > It also turns out that the slice of the frequency spectrum required by > FM is greater than AM. Actually, I don't think this is quite true. You can have spectrally efficient narrow band FM. But since the frequency deviation carries the amplitude information you can acheive what I believe they call "process gain" by using a greater than minimal frequency deviation. Thus you can trade spectral efficiency for noise immunity. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 15:49:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA08108 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 08:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA08052 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 08:52:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id LAA11915; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 11:51:18 -0500 Date: 22 Feb 96 11:43:32 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Thermal equilibrium question Message-ID: <960222164332_72240.1256_EHB53-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I wrote: "Most of the measurements I took at Power-Gen were done when the cell and circulating electrolyte was still heating up, not when it was coming down from high power. . ." Mitch asks: "What was the time sequence of the heaters being on, and the time when the system was "still heating up"?" Not the heaters. I did not mean the aux heaters were on, I meant the CF reaction was heating up the electrolyte and the reservoir temperature was trending up. I do not have any detailed info on this, I just noted the trend. I did not see the heaters turned on. There were two: 100 watts and 50 watts, as noted here previously, but I don't think they used 'em. They probably need them back in that trailer in the mountains of New Mexico! I'll bet the ambient temperature in there is 10 deg C. Maybe minus 10. "If the heaters were on, why do/did you not count them?" Of course if they had been on I would have said that months ago! - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 15:50:57 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA12250 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 12:21:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA12206 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 12:20:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.3) id MAA08484; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 12:19:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 12:19:57 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Statement from Bowles on s.p.f. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: RMCarrell@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 11:36:01 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Statement from Bowles on s.p.f. Jed has posted the Bowles statement from s.p.f and prefaces it with remarks which include: "As I see it, Bowles is saying that if he finds no evidence of helium he will disavow his excess heat measurements. That's what scientists always say! It's perfectly typical." I don't read Bowles remarks that way at all. He did say: "If we don't find any evidence of nuclear reactions after that, it will be "drop back and punt" time. We have also done some preliminary tests for chemical reactions and found none. After all that there still "seems to be" excess heat." What else could you expect a respected assistant dean of a university to say when his analysis in incomplete? He said "*After all that* there still seems to be excess heat." If he carefully, rigorously, systematically removes all conventional explanations, including a quantitative sufficiency of nuclear ash of any kind, and still has excess heat, that will be another, perhaps decisive, nail in the coffin of prevailing physics. Remember that a century ago it was the failure of the prevailing physical models to explain the results of certain experiments that triggered the rise of modern physics. Give the man some space, gentlemen! Mike Carrell From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 15:57:04 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id LAA01382 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 11:21:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA01348 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 11:20:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c1p5.aa.net (s3c1p5.aa.net [204.157.220.145]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA22309 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 11:20:19 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602221920.LAA22309@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:20:08 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Contact list for the group Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:36 PM 11/18/95 -0800, you wrote: > >I'm going to assemble a list of vortex-L users and place it on the little >vortex-L web page for our convenience. > >It won't be private, the world will be able to get to it, but it right now >it is several levels deep within Weird Science, so I doubt there's much >chance that cranks will start sending us hate mail. If desired, simply >leave off your snailmail address, phone number, etc. For those with >websites, I'll make this html and put links on the list. > >Anyone interested can send me something like the following, and I'll put >it on that page: > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Bill Beaty Electrical engineer, programmer, science >7040 22nd Ave NW exhibit designer. Currently at Eaton/ >Seattle, WA 98117 Cutler-Hammer Optoelectronics. Long time >email: billb@eskimo.com fascination with science teaching, hobby >http://www.eskimo.com/~billb physics, and the damp, dark underbelly of >phone: 206-781-3320 (USA) science from whence comes creativity, >lists: vortex-L, freenrg-L crackpots, and earthshaking new discoveries. >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > Here is a listing for myself: Michael Mandeville Electronic publisher at MetaSyn Media all contact information for me is at http://www.aa.net/~mwm Primary focus: paradigm shift in Physics, Archeology, Life Extension, Spirituality, & Cyberspace Bringing home the bacon by web page construction, internet consulting, and information filtering for a variety of clients; work in progress to create a full service website with deep layers of support software for publishing and commercial grade services. My favorite hobby besides geology is a book to be called "Flight of the Phoenix", which is an interpretative study of the oldest message on Earth, the ancient Egyptian's valient effort to warn all succeding generations about the inevitability of "The Event", which is a major, sudden tectonic movement of the Earth's crust which continually re-occurs every so often, often enough that humanity has a collective but very dim memory of at least three such "Events". ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 15:58:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id HAA19978 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 07:00:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA19913 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 06:59:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id JAA28789; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 09:58:30 -0500 Date: 22 Feb 96 09:56:21 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: thermal stratification Message-ID: <960222145620_72240.1256_EHB130-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little (little@eden.com) writes: "I've been thinking about another problem that could be plaguing the Cravens-style vertical flow calorimetry...thermal stratification in the air space outside the cell. . . . Such a problem would cause the upper temp sensor, which is the outlet sensor, to be hotter than the lower sensor...resulting in a false positive indication." I believe it is just the opposite. The photos of the ICCF5 traveling demo show the upper sensor hanging out in the air, above the plastic disk. The inlet sensor is inside the Dewar. This arrangement would tend to narrow the Delta T temperature, if it had any measurable effect. In any case, this problem is ruled out by extensive calibrations. The laboratory set-up was similar to this, with better instrumentation. In the lab he calibrated with a joule heater and with null electrolysis, varying both the power levels and the flow rate. These calibrations would also reveal a false positive indication if this hypothesis was correct. His calibrations were more varied, more careful and more complete than others I have seen from large, well-known labs. The traveling demo was also calibrated with a joule heater, although not as extensively. It was not as well insulated, so less of the energy was recovered from the flow. "In at least one of the public demos Cravens put on, he enclosed the cell in an insulated chamber made with two Dewars placed mouth-to-mouth." Which demo was that? At ICCF5 the cell was sitting in the Dewar hanging from that large plastic disk, with lots of holes and air movement. He removed it from the Dewars several times to show people how it worked. I wish I had a photo of him holding it. After he took it out and waved it around a few minutes, I watched the differential thermocouple readings carefully. I did not see any significant drop or gain, other than the usual slow changes seen throughout the day. "Cravens has reported that "the effect" has a positive temperature coefficient and works noticeably better at elevated electrolyte temperatures..." Yes indeed, and so have many others, notably Pons and Fleischmann, McKubre and Mizuno. That's extremely important. Elsewhere, Scott writes: "In the demos I'm referring to, they used an auxiliary heater to warm the electrolyte." Which demo was that? SOFE? I think the aux heater was left on most of the time at SOFE. At ICCF5 it was only used to heat up the electrolyte in the morning, and then turned off. "That's [Power-Gen] the thing that has awakened my interest in the Patterson cell." That's funny! I thought ICCF5 and the paper were more convincing than Power-Gen. Perhaps it is a matter of taste, but I get a warm and fuzzy feeling from extensive calibration and good instrumentation, rather than just raw power. Of course, I insist on macroscopic power levels. It has to be at least a watt! (That is an arbitrary line, but ya' gotta draw a line somewhere.) "It would take more than a hyperfine effect to explain an apparent 200:1 gain...I think." That depends on the absolute power level. Anyone could get an apparent 200:1 gain while fooling around with milliwatts. An false reading of 1 mw in, 200 out would be a cinch. At the watt level, 1 watt in, 200 or 400 or 1300 out, it is impossible to be wrong. You can make all kinds of dramatically stupid mistakes but you would still prove it, beyond any doubt. There is no way you could detect 1-watt with any of the large-scale calorimeters they have used, so any measurable heat at all has to be a massive excess. In that sense I suppose Power-Gen was more convincing, but it was sloppy, sloppy, sloppy. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 16:22:44 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id QAA14408 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:16:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA14387 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:15:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from s1c3p2.aa.net (s1c3p2.aa.net [204.157.220.190]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA17205 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:15:48 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602250015.QAA17205@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 16:15:18 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: A surprising interview Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:17 PM 2/19/96 EST, you wrote: >To:Vortex > > >Amazing, innit? > >Chris > >PS Yes, the onus is on others to check that mit.edu WWW page. My machine is >too low-spec to access the web. > > please spec out the machine you are using currently. do you own it? can you do anything you want to it. the odds are that there are a lot of us out here with spare components of very little value to us which could help you build up a more suitable platform. It is amazing what $150 will buy these days to complete the gaps. To start with, we need a definitive spec of what you have right now - everything, every part of the beast, if you are capable of defining it. such as: mainboard: the manufacturer also is possible ram on board and in what form (chips, simms, number of pins on the simms): ram expansion slots (if any) ($100 will buy a 486 66 mhz board/processor to stick into the existing box/power supply) the big issue and expense is ram - 4 meg ram will work but just barely - about $130 per 4 meg simm graphics board: if vga, good, stand pat there but best if has 1 meg video memory on it floppy drive: 3.5" 1.44 mb is essential for the shareware which can be installed modem: awfully cheap these days and I'll just bet somebody has a surplus 14.4 which is good enough if it is free. hard disk: I'll bet there are some surplus 300 to 500 mb hard disks out there from people who have upgraded. 300 mb will hold for you really good wordprocessing tools, windows, netscape or similar browser, and telecommunication software. important issue here is the existing controller you are using. cheapest, easiest solution is a $100 486 66 mhz motherboard with built in IDE interface for the floppy and hard disk drive, but this will work only if the hard disk is an IDE drive..add the cost of 4 mb ram and for about $250 you could have a decent web capability if we can locate the modem and hard disk on surplus...oh, what monitor do you have, gotta have color and vga is okay, but just barely. (should support at least 800x600 resolution) or, maybe somebody has a 386 machine...which will support at least 4 mb of ram, which they don't know what to do with. I know there are some of those floating around. Unfortunately I gave my 386 to my lady, who uses it as her personal typewriter and there is no way I can pry that loose. it is a little slow but it has 8 mb of ram and cruises the net just fine. one issue with the 4 mb ram is that it can quickly suffer ram cram lockup, so you need to limit your sessions and reboot often (hourly or after before switching to a different application program, especially out of the word processor). you want to use 6.22 dos with 3.11 windows for workgroups, because this combination of software has by far the best systems memory management capabilities for the limited ram resources (microsoft was still trying to make the shoehorn work but gave up with win95. (win95 is an unmitigated pain in the ass for low resources, especially for people who actually want to use the computer instead of tinkering with its various issues). probably at this point someone has legit disks which they are willing to part with or sell for very little. you gotta have a pc buddy, though, to help make the stuff work on site... recap: what do you currently have? ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 16:59:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id QAA18509 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA18494 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:52:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQaejj21386; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 19:51:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA49008; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:51:51 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 160451160096055FEPRI; 24 Feb 1996 16:51:16 PST Message-Id: Date: 24 Feb 1996 16:51:16 PST From: "Mark Hugo, Northern" Subject: vtx: Improvements on calorimeter... To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/24/96 16:51:03 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Improvements on calorimeter... - I have put a different cathode and electrolyte in my calorimeter. Disregarding electrolysis loss (i.e., taking power in as V * I) I now have a 100% + effecient calorimeter, where previously I was only 67% effecient... - MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 17:25:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id RAA21820 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:18:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA21780 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:18:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.74] ([204.57.193.74]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA11788 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:14:28 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:23:02 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: loading discrepancies Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >thanks for this: > >>From I.E. V.1 No.2 pp.18-22: > >>BEAD LOADING INFORMATION > >>Fresh beads: 12 hrs >>Pre-loaded beads: 1 hr. >>Loading current: .2 to .5 A >>A constant current supply was used. > >But doesn't .2-.5 amps sound high for loading? The usual suggestion is to >load slow and then increase for excess heat production. As I recall, the >typical current used by Cravens DURING excess heat production is around 0.1 >amps. That means we need to use less than 0.1 amps during loading....??? > I agree it sounds high, especially for the cell resistance. That's why I am concerned about the discrepancies. I double checked the article, though. See paragraph in rightmost column and at bottom of page 20. High loading current is consistent with much that has been written on s.p.f. I especially remember the analogy to stepping on the gas hard and then coasting while measuring fuel consumption. Of course that analogy fails because the car keeps going and going ... The columnar data at the top of page 21 supports high loading current initially as well, but shows low voltage with the high current, followed by low voltage with low current. It looks like maybe there is a typo, and the 0.7 Amps at 21:10 should actually be 0.07 Amps. Right below it is that famous chart of Power Ratio vs. Input Current that goes out to 4 Amps, implying runs were made at 4 A, but legend says "typical", implying it may not have been the same cell. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 17:25:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id RAA21836 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:18:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA21769 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:18:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.74] ([204.57.193.74]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA11783 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:14:18 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:22:52 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: thermal strat (& capillarity) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Horace Heffner (hheffner@anc.ak.net) writes: >Subject: Re: vtx: thermal stratification > > =hh "I hate to belabor this dead issue, but I believe stainless steel >wells were > =hh used and the thermocouples were embedded in epoxy and wrapped in teflon > =hh tape. This is a sure formula to maximize the wicking effect. Since the > =hh thermocouple is insulated from the well, the temperature measured could be > =hh weighted more to the ambient than to the cell temperature. This could > =hh affect the results in *either direction* with regard to excess heat. If, > =hh as Scott suggests, two dewars were placed around the cell, with a foam > =hh separator in the middle, extreme stratification could occur due to more > =hh electrical resistance, or more recombination, in the top dewar, which is > =hh insulated from the bottom dewar. This would be a *very* asymmetrical > =hh distribution. In the case of the Powergen cell, it was wrapped in > =hh insulation, in which case the wicking effect would tend to make both > =hh readings towards the cell casing top and bottom temperatures, which would > =hh have less of a differential than the electrolyte, thus *reducing* the > =hh apparent power output. > > In addition to Horace Heffner's analysis, >if wicking (the removal of water from the electrolyte by >inadvertant capillary action) exists and persists, the total heat capacity of >the cell will fall. > > If the cell was calibrated before the wicking, this effect >would *increase* the apparent power, because for the same input power, >and an unexpectedly smaller total heat capacity, the temperature >would be greater than it would be if there was none of the >inadvertant water removal by capillarity. > > Best wishes. > Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) My apologies. Please substitute the term "stem effect" (potential error in measurement caused by heat transfer through a body or leads of a probe) for "wicking effect" above. Once again I got my merds wixed. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 17:26:25 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id RAA21791 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:18:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA21774 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:18:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.74] ([204.57.193.74]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA11786 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:14:23 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:22:57 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: thermal strat (& capillarity) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Mitchell says, in response to Horace: > >>if wicking (the removal of water from the electrolyte by >>inadvertant capillary action) exists and persists, the total heat capacity >>of the cell will fall. > >Horace, weren't you talking about "thermal wicking"...not the actual >transport of water? Yes, usually called the "stem effect". Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 17:32:50 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id RAA23275 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:27:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA23258 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:27:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-120.austin.eden.com (net-1-120.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.120]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.4.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id TAA24470 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 19:26:44 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 19:26:44 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602250126.TAA24470@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Improvements on calorimeter... X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: Improvements on calorimeter... >- >I have put a different cathode and electrolyte in my calorimeter. Disregarding >electrolysis loss (i.e., taking power in as V * I) I now have a 100% + >effecient calorimeter, where previously I was only 67% effecient... Mark, I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that your cell is now showing gain? If so, what'd you use for the new cathode...plated beads? Please post a more complete description of what's happening including a typical set of readings (flow rate, delta-T, V, I, etc.) Thanks. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 17:42:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id RAA24509 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:36:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA24477 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:36:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id UAA18244; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 20:35:17 -0500 Date: 24 Feb 96 20:33:59 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Bingo! Message-ID: <960225013358_100433.1541_BHG47-3@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:Vortex Hal Puthoff writes: "....overcoming the Coulomb barrier in a two-body collision might be difficult, but once a multi-body calculation was done perhaps that would make it easier. I have myself carried out just such calculations of electron-electron collisions using standard van der Waals theory and was surprised to find that although van de Waals attractive forces will not appreciably help to overcome Coulomb repulsion in two-body collisions, when one takes a look at an N-body situation (where N is very large - 10^something), electrons can indeed snuggle up on the basis of van der Waals attractive forces - just as Mitchell suggests." Exactly what I had hoped for! Wonderful!! I realise that I am perhaps being much too hasty, but this is exactly the kind of 'simple' (haha) mechanism which would explain why the effects are seen as they are - in such a wild and confusing proliferation of reports. "The above is being submitted to Phys. Rev. Although specifically derived for electron rather than nuclear interactions, I would imagine the same principles would apply." Indeed let us hope so. This seems to me to be a critical step forward. I bet Hal had to do a lot of "hard sums" to get this worked out. Boom, BOOM. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 17:42:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id RAA24509 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:36:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA24477 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:36:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id UAA18244; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 20:35:17 -0500 Date: 24 Feb 96 20:33:59 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Bingo! Message-ID: <960225013358_100433.1541_BHG47-3@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: D To:Vortex Hal Puthoff writes: "....overcoming the Coulomb barrier in a two-body collision might be difficult, but once a multi-body calculation was done perhaps that would make it easier. I have myself carried out just such calculations of electron-electron collisions using standard van der Waals theory and was surprised to find that although van de Waals attractive forces will not appreciably help to overcome Coulomb repulsion in two-body collisions, when one takes a look at an N-body situation (where N is very large - 10^something), electrons can indeed snuggle up on the basis of van der Waals attractive forces - just as Mitchell suggests." Exactly what I had hoped for! Wonderful!! I realise that I am perhaps being much too hasty, but this is exactly the kind of 'simple' (haha) mechanism which would explain why the effects are seen as they are - in such a wild and confusing proliferation of reports. "The above is being submitted to Phys. Rev. Although specifically derived for electron rather than nuclear interactions, I would imagine the same principles would apply." Indeed let us hope so. This seems to me to be a critical step forward. I bet Hal had to do a lot of "hard sums" to get this worked out. Boom, BOOM. Chris From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 17:42:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id RAA24504 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA24475 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:36:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id UAA18238; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 20:35:16 -0500 Date: 24 Feb 96 20:33:32 EST From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> To: vortex Subject: vtx: Computer bits Message-ID: <960225013331_100433.1541_BHG47-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:vortex Michael asks about my computer. Well, it's a clapped-out 386, but Jed has sent me a 486/66 main board, which I would fit if I had any RAM. I have an SVGA board which Chris Morriss donated, and an 80Mb disk + 1.4 floppy. And a monochrome monitor. And a 2400 modem, which is a bit silly I know, but that is still one area where UK prices are more than US ones. The 1Mb on the 386 board is not extendable. But this is one huge improvement over my last machine, which was 2 * 720kB 3.5", no hard drive, and a non-backlit 6" green LCD screen haha. It needed a hairdryer to warm the modem before it would seize the line, and I melted the case a bit, so it was a bit difficult to change floppies... It's very nice of you, Michael, but maybe I don't really need to be able to wander the WWW. After thirty years as a hacker, I don't have any gee-whiz feelings about these nasty little boxes of chips. An upgrade would be nice, but I can wait! Thanks! Chris PS I love all that ancient texts stuff, anything you have on this 'message' I would very much enjoy reading! From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 17:46:51 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id RAA25110 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:41:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA25094 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:41:16 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA26995 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 20:39:59 -0500 Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 20:39:59 -0500 Message-ID: <960224203959_230476436@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: hows that look Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A How does this look??....Wish me luck. I am ready to jump ship at GPU. They keep sitting on me. 2/20/95 Frank Znidarsic 481 Boyer St. Johnstown, Pa. 15906 Personnel Relations Specialist also to Westinghouse Elec Corp Concurrent Technologies Corp. Power Genereation Group 1450 Scalp Ave Box 344 Johnstown, Pa. Madision Pa 15663 15905 Greetings: I am seeking employment with your corporation. I have rather special interests and talents. I am interested in the development of new energy technology. I am particularly interested in the development of fuel cells and zero point energy machines. I have been following the development of cold fusion and zero point energy devices for many years. I am published on the subject. I am currently marketing a book and a disk on the subject in several national magazines. I feel strongly that these devices will be reaching the market within four years and that they will be supplying 1/2 of the world's energy within twelve years. I want to be a involved in the development of these exciting new technologies. I am also interested in more routine projects. I am a leader, a team play, and have great interest in technology. Afford me the pleasure of an interview. . Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 17:56:14 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id RAA25911 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:48:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA25888 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA13879; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 20:48:07 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22080; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 20:46:33 -0500 Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 20:46:33 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602250146.AA22080@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: thermal strat (& capillarity) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ok. since the water effect is significant in some systems, we ought separate out the two in the future. 1. capillarity water transport (wicking) 2. inadvertant heat loss by stem effect thanks. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 19:07:29 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id SAA05107 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 18:59:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA05076 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 18:59:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.74] ([204.57.193.71]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA12161 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 17:55:10 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 18:03:43 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Why nickel, why beads Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed writes: [snip] >Third, the shape. Beads have a big advantage: they're round (and not square >either!) They have no edges where flaking can begin. They are strong because, >you might say, the material holds on to itself, reaching around the sphere in >self-reinforcing hoop-like structures, like the rubber bands inside a golf >ball. > >Spheres have other big advantages too, besides strength. [snip] I feel cylinders have not been given their due thus far. It is possible to electro-plate long wires and then chop them up into smaller cyliders to get bead like contact points, isolation, structural strength, low metal usage, high surface area, etc. I think carbon fiber or graphite rods might also provide a good base to start plating. Mildly conductive small diameter ceramic tubes or rods could work well also. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 19:16:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id TAA06217 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 19:08:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA06196 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 19:08:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.74] ([204.57.193.71]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA12201 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 18:04:26 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 18:12:58 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Improvements on calorimeter... Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: Improvements on calorimeter... >- >I have put a different cathode and electrolyte in my calorimeter. Disregarding >electrolysis loss (i.e., taking power in as V * I) I now have a 100% + >effecient calorimeter, where previously I was only 67% effecient... >- >MDH OK, how different is it? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Feb 24 19:44:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id TAA10320 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 19:36:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA10293 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 19:36:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.74] ([204.57.193.71]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA12456 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 18:32:47 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 18:41:19 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: hows that look Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >How does this look??....Wish me luck. I am ready to jump ship at GPU. They >keep sitting on me. > >[snip] Frank, I wish you the very best of luck, and hope you find what you are looking for, but also am concerned for you. Your views will be vindicated someday, but meanwhile you have the blessings, and duties, of a good job. There is no harm or loss of face in trying something and then having a setback. Let them sit on you! It is not what is happening to you that is important, it is how you feel about it. Humdrum is not the lofty joys of infinite energy, but it's not life in a concentration camp either. If something great does not come along, know how lucky you are to have everything you do have. A vaction can sometimes clear your head of the moment's emotions and give you the bigger picture. Remember, 1/3 of every working day is yours, and all of the weekends and vacations. You have a lot of friends and access to vortex. What more could a person want? PS. I just went out and bought some Automotive Goop. It may be just what I was looking for to seal a heat exchanger made of vinyl tubing. Thanks for the tip. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 08:56:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id IAA03590 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 08:46:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA03563 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 08:46:29 -0800 (PST) From: RMCarrell@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA03782 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 11:45:09 -0500 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 11:45:09 -0500 Message-ID: <960225114507_332513559@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: A Cautionary Tale Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Logajan noted a correction to my comments about FM and AM bandwidth in his comments about my "cautionary tale". He is right, of course. There are lots of tradeoffs in the schemes of modulation; there is narrow band, single sideband FM which is used with some mobile radios and VCRs. The details just get too complex for the short essay and would go way off the topic for this forum, so I abridged them. Mike From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 11:04:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id KAA21641 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 10:52:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA21625 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 10:52:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.4) id KAA27404; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 10:52:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 10:52:42 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: re: TaosHum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > --- FORWARDED --- > Date: 24 Feb 1996 16:44:48 -0500 > From: "Ray Adams" > Subject: re: TaosHum Rsch 1.5 d Tn > To: "TaosHum Newslist" > Just to report a bit belatedly on my perception of the hum. It seems to me Oops! Forwarded to the wrong list! Or is this cross-pollination... The Taos Hum discussion is jumpin', hum-hearers are organizing themselves into a reporting network, Lennart in Sweden managed to pick up and record the signal with some sort of microphone, and other "hearers" say the recording sounds much like the strange sound they constantly hear. See http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/hum/hum.html .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 11:08:10 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id KAA22578 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 10:57:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA22540 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 10:57:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dacha (eb1ppp8.shentel.net [204.111.1.72]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA03755 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 13:59:37 -0500 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 96 13:55:46 From: dacha@shentel.net Subject: RE: vtx: Bingo! To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-PRIORITY: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Chameleon B95_14, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- On 24 Feb 96 20:33:59 EST Chris Tinsley <100433.1541@compuserve.com> wrote: To:Vortex Hal Puthoff writes: "....overcoming the Coulomb barrier in a two-body collision might be difficult, but once a multi-body calculation was done perhaps that would make it easier. >snip< -----------------End of Original Message----------------- I am very interested in hearing more from others on this subject. I have long felt that this is the area where we will find the answers to O/U question. Robert ------------------------------------- Name: dacha E-mail: dacha@visor.com Date: 2/25/96 Time: 1:55:46 PM http://www.visor.com/info ------------------------------------- From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 12:26:51 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id MAA06823 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 12:19:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA06801 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 12:18:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id PAA17699; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 15:17:21 -0500 Date: 25 Feb 96 15:15:50 EST From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Paleo/Archeo Heresy TONIGHT Message-ID: <960225201550_76570.2270_FHU29-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'm forwarding this note from Jeff K. to all my good HERETIC friends. Gene Mallove *********** Hey all, Tonight, from the same folks who brought you the Sphinx show a few years ago (Emmy award winner) at 7 p.m. Eastern time, shown on the NBC network, is a program called "The Mysterious Origins of Man." I didn't want any of you to just dismiss this as another one of those typical TV documentaries. This docu team knows how to do its homework, and essentially what we will see discussed tonight is a controversy in the paleontological and anthropological community every bit as nasty as that in the Physics and Chemistry world with respect to cold fusion and Over unity devices, complete with career destruction and the usual sort of hand waving in defense of the ruling paradigm. This show is sure to be a hit among the weird science crowd, but what makes it fun is that we'll get to hear from folks who were perfectly good members of their respective scientific communities, right up until they started getting results that disagreed with the ruling paradigm. Jeffery D. Kooistra From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 15:14:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id PAA06355 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 15:06:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA06326 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 15:06:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA28736; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 18:05:04 -0500 Date: 25 Feb 96 18:02:45 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Radiometer Message-ID: <960225230245_100060.173_JHB153-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Just to report that I called at Steven Thomas' sumptuous $750,000 home in Oxted, Surrey, England and his young female relative gave me an imposing battleship grey ventilated box with an 18" long cantilevered matt black sensing element. It just won't fit into an A4 envelope so Chris is going to organise its collection. It has a USA plug on its mains lead so we assume that it is still set for 115v 60Hz, and will therefore require re-calibrating, even if we feed it with transformed 230v - 115v @ 50Hz. Maybe Mark has the calibration standard - like a 1" candle flame at 2 paces. There is no manual with it. If it helps, the model is TCN 188.01 Ser.No. 1002. Made by Packard Bell, Newbury Park Cal. 805 498 3621 The plate has the following K values: 188.45 BTU/Hr/Ft^2/MV [sic] . and: 0.8522 GM.CAL/CM^2/MIN/MV [sic] Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 15:40:58 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id PAA10743 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 15:34:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from bos1g.delphi.com (SYSTEM@bos1g.delphi.com [192.80.63.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA10726 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 15:34:08 -0800 (PST) From: JOEFLYNN@delphi.com Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V5.0-5 #10880) id <01I1N22N4C0G9FRNJQ@delphi.com> for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 18:34:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 18:34:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: vtx: Over Input To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <01I1N22N4LNM9FRNJQ@delphi.com> X-VMS-To: INTERNET"vortex-l@eskimo.com" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: When the term "Over Unity" is used with regards to measured effects in various devices, including CF, don't we really mean "over external input" ? The true source of the output in various devices is not defined so it's not known if the eventual explanations fit convention or not. (Even though convention does not appear to predict the actions at present, it may, through an unusual unforeseen twist, support convention in the final analysis.) Even though it's more a question of semantics than science, I think phrases like "Over Unity" are good for getting Press but gave CF and other technologies a "Scientific Black Eye" the day they were born. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 21:51:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id QAA22481 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 16:44:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (climate-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.251.148]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA22405 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 16:44:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.183.89.65] (macwharton.gsfc.nasa.gov) by climate.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA246355443; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 19:44:03 -0500 X-Sender: wharton@climate Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 19:44:26 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (Larry Wharton) Subject: vtx: Paterson call entropy analysis Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex, I have done some more analysis on my "fool's heat" theory. In this theory there is no excess energy production in the Paterson cell and the heat output contains negative potential energy that would dissipate it and render it useless for heating. The interesting result is that the value of this "fool's heat" is actually twice as valuable as normal heat for the purpose of producing ordered energy, such as running a heat pump. Mabey I should change the name. It is no good for heating but twice as good for doing work. Any suggestions out there? First let me give the definition of "fool's heat" expressed in entropy terms: "Fools heat" is that fraction of the heat of a solution, not in its maximum entropy state, that will be dissipated upon achieving the maximum entropy state. I selected this term in analogy with "fools gold" where a prospector thinks he has found some gold but it isn't really gold. Similarly, some of the heat of the Paterson cell output could in a sense be unreal as it could be dissipated as the maximum entropy state is achieved. This term need not be taken to be derogatory at this stage as nearly 100% of the Paterson cell investigators know about this potential problem and how to check for it. So one could view it as like many prospectors setting out to find the mother lode of gold and they know how to detect fools gold and will not be fooled by it. If they strike the mother lode it will be real gold. Continuing on with the entropy analysis, lets suppose that we have hot water mixed with ice (in the Paterson cell lithium sulfate salt crystals would take the place of the ice) such that upon melting of the ice the water would be at room temperature. My best guess, at this time, of the entropy dependence on the temperature of this mixture is S = 2 * Cv * log( T ) with S the entropy, Cv the specific heat at constant volume and T the temperature. This is twice the usual expression. My argument for the factor of two is as follows: Suppose we extract the energy potential of the hot water, through a Carnot cycle, quickly enough so that very little of the ice would melt. Then we would have the ordered energy extracted from the hot water, water at room temperature, and the ice. The ice could then melt and cool off the water an amount opposite the amount it was heated. This cold water would have approximately the same ordered energy potential as the hot water and it could be extracted, with a Carnot cycle, giving the final maximum entropy state of room temperature water with no ice. In other words, if the excess heat of the outflow of the Paterson cell is combined with a negative potential energy such that there would be no net energy gain in the cell, then the value, for purposes of converting to ordered energy, of the apparent excess heat is double the usual result. Let me express this as a theorem: If the Paterson cell produces no excess energy then the heat produced has twice the usual value for the purpose of converting to ordered energy. So fools heat has zero value for heating but double the value for generating ordered energy. That is something to think about. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 20:13:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id UAA24211 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:03:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA24189 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:03:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQaeno05908; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:03:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA46481; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:03:48 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 495702200096056FEPRI; 25 Feb 1996 20:02:20 PST Message-Id: Date: 25 Feb 1996 20:02:20 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Radiometer To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/25/96 20:02:56 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/25/96 16:30 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Radiometer Norman: This device is rather passive. All you need to do is put a transformer on it, and you should get the desired result. You might have to get a 50cycle to 60 cycle converter transformer to get the same MOTOR speed out of it, but tell Chris to TAKE IT APART, and he will quickly observe what it looks like. PS-While in England I happened to spend some time looking at the cost of housing. My 2400 square foot, 1/3 acre, brick house in the Lake Minnetonka area seemed to be about equivalent to what sells for $750,000 in GB. I can assure you I DID NOT pay that for it, but I'm happy living in it! MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 20:18:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id UAA25008 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:08:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA24992 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:08:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQaeno06332; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:08:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA46271; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:08:47 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 713907200096056FEPRI; 25 Feb 1996 20:07:20 PST Message-Id: Date: 25 Feb 1996 20:07:20 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Improvements on calorimeter... To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/25/96 20:07:39 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/24/96 22:30 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Improvements on calorimeter... Sorry, can't give details for the moment....MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 20:23:18 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id UAA25494 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:12:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA25477 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:12:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQaeno06568; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:11:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA34262; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:11:48 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 605210200096056FEPRI; 25 Feb 1996 20:10:20 PST Message-Id: Date: 25 Feb 1996 20:10:20 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: hows that look To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/25/96 20:10:51 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/24/96 17:46 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: hows that look Frank: Do you want a RUDE awakening? Don't even THINK of mentioning your ZPE or Cold Fusion interests as ANYTHING but hobby interest in an employment situation. If you do you will have NOTHING but the waste can for your resume. This is the TRUTH, not fiction. The world is NOT a kind place to revolutionaries. They are for the most part isolated or eliminated. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 21:51:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id VAA10543 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 21:43:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA10530 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 21:43:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-160.austin.eden.com (net-1-160.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.160]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.4.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id XAA21296 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:43:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:43:00 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602260543.XAA21296@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: loading calcs and more questions X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed quoted Craven's ICCF4 paper: > "It is important that the initial loading of Pd be done slowly and > carefully. The object is to us a low current density (30 to 60 mA/cm^2) If you count the entire surface area of each bead, there's around 30 cm^2 of area per cc of beads. So a cell with one cc of beads in it would need .9 to 1.8 amps according to the above! I doubt if all the beads will participate equally so maybe the .2-.5 amp recommendation that appeared in IE is about right. Now, I'm concerned about the desired current level for "runnning". Haven't most of the quoted o-u results for the Patterson cell involved currents LOWER than .2-.5 amps? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 01:02:55 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id AAA07386 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 00:54:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA07358 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 00:54:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.79] ([204.57.193.79]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA18355 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:50:52 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:58:55 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Paterson call entropy analysis Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >To: Vortex, > > I have done some more analysis on my "fool's heat" theory. In this >theory there is no excess energy production in the Paterson cell and the >heat output contains negative potential energy that would dissipate it and >render it useless for heating. The interesting result is that the value of >this "fool's heat" is actually twice as valuable as normal heat for the >purpose of producing ordered energy, such as running a heat pump. Mabey I >should change the name. It is no good for heating but twice as good for >doing work. Any suggestions out there? How about potential heat? It's just like potentail energy - waiting to be released into kinetic energy. > >First let me give the definition of "fool's heat" expressed in entropy terms: > > "Fools heat" is that fraction of the heat of a solution, not in its >maximum entropy state, that will be dissipated upon achieving the maximum >entropy state. > [snip] > >Lawrence E. Wharton I have a suggestion for the possible source of potential heat: the Li atom. The electrolyte flow prevents the normal flow of Li+ and H+ ions toward the cathode from the direction of the anode. However, plenty of H+ and Li+ ions are flowing by the cathode. The Li+ ions are candidates to become Li atoms at the cathode, thus becoming carriers of potential heat. Likewise for the H. It is possible for the atoms to stay deionized for a while, or to form LiH, Li2, H2SO4 and H2, at least long enough that the potential heat is converted to heat in the solution and transferred to the cathode. The H2 will bubble out, but what about the Li? It is paradoxical that the Li atoms are at ground state with respect to charge, yet far from "ground state" with respect to the solution. It is exciting to throw even small amounts of LiH into a sink full of water. What ensues is very exothermic, noisy, and wet! I have never tried that with metallic lithium first hand, but I suspect there would be a similar result. At the anode, and beyond, you could get super-recombination of the various potential heat carriers. The trick is to get as many as possible of the potential heat carriers beyond the point where actual heat is removed from the electrolyte. How to test this hypothesis? One thing to do would be to increase the Li2SO4 concentration. Increased concentration should produce and increased effect, and vice versa. Another is to use MgSO4 or maybe even an aluminum salt. Double the ionization, double the effect. Plus, Mg and Al would have longer "half lives" in solution that Li, maybe too long. Another thing to try of more scientific interest is to separate the anode and cathode portion of the cell and see if there is a temperature gradient in between. It would take a higher voltage, and might ruin the o/u effect, but would still illuminate what is going on. In my calorimeter, it might be possible to insert a several temperature measurement stations between the anode and cathode. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sun Feb 25 23:08:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id WAA21464 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 22:56:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU [128.250.50.83]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA21435 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 22:56:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msevior@localhost) by liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) id RAA28556; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 17:55:57 +1100 From: Martin Edmund Sevior Message-Id: <199602260655.RAA28556@liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU> Subject: vtx: Larry's fools heat. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 17:55:56 +1100 (EST) Cc: msevior@liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU (Martin Edmund Sevior) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Larry Wharton has postulated that the excess power observed in Patterson Cells' could be due to the formation of crystals catylized by the electrolysis current. In essence this balances the heat released and observed in the flowing electrolyte calorimeters with negative potential energy in the form of undisolved Li2S04 crystals. Thus the CETI cell would be an very interesting example of a chemical heat pump and is a real potential "conventional" mechanism that would explain the widespread replication without new physics. The maximum heat flow is limited by Carnot efficiency for converting electrical energy to into heat flow. For the SOFE demo the paramters were: 4.5 degree temperature difference, 4.5 watt heat output, 60 milliwatt electrolysis current. Plugging these numbers into the Carnot equation to calculate the heat flow 60 milliwatts can give at a temperature difference of 5 degrees is: Max Heat flow = 0.06 * T2/(T2 -T1) = 0.06 * 302.5/ 4.5 = 4.03 watts. The temperatures T2 and T1 are the 30 Celcius and 25 Celcius temps expressed in units of Kelvin. Now one could easily argue that the power input in the calculation should be reduce by a factor of 2 since that amount of energy is used to dissociate water and cannot be part of the this unusual process. In this case the maximum heat flow possible is: Max Heat flow = 2.02 Watts. The numbers come out too low to explain the SOFE demo if one corrects for the energy required to dissociate water. One would have to argue about mistakes in the measurements to get them down to the level observed. For POWERGEN the hypthesis fails more spectacularly: Jed's most studied POWERGEN numbers are 6.7 degree temperature difference, 467 watt heat output, 0.1 watt electrolysis current. Max Heat flow = 0.1*T2/(T2 - T1) = 0.1*314.7/6.7 = 4.7 watts Too small by 2 orders of magnitude. In any case one can easily see the advantgae of studying the cells as a function of flow rate. Get the delta-T up high enough and eventually the Carnot efficiency will limit this mechanism. I still haven't come across a mechanism that will explain the results reported. To my thinking "convential Physics" needs some bad experimental mistakes to explain the reported results. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 05:22:08 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id FAA01405 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 05:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA01387 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 05:09:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-114.austin.eden.com (net-1-114.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.114]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.4.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id HAA19143 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 07:09:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 07:09:06 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602261309.HAA19143@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Larry's "fool's heat" X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Larry said: >should change the name. It is no good for heating but twice as good for >doing work. Any suggestions out there? sounds like "King's Heat" to me! ...but, if this were indeed the "source" of the Patterson cell's excess heat, wouldn't the thing run out of dissolved Li2SO4 rather promptly? Either that or there'd have to be a cold place in the loop somewhere, where it was going back into solution. Martin brings up an excellent point about the Carnot efficiency limit on such a process. No way around that, I believe. Horace's Li atom idea is interesting but any heat flow produced in the outflow stream from such a phenomena would have to obey conservation of energy and would, at maximum, equal the V*I input power, right? - Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 06:47:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id GAA11222 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 06:34:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA11190 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 06:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA23607; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 09:33:44 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18424; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 09:30:11 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 09:30:11 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602261430.AA18424@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Wharton's "Fools heat" analysis (dimensional analysis) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In Message-ID: <4gr0ci$7nc@post.gsfc.nasa.gov> Subject: Paterson cell "fool's heat" entropy analysis Lawrence E. Wharton [wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov] writes: = " I had a few comments about my "fool's heat" analysis and entropy. = First let me give the definition of "fool's heat" expressed in entropy = terms: = = "Fools heat" is that fraction of the heat of a solution, not in its = maximum entropy state, that will be dissipated upon achieving the = maximum entropy state. = = I selected this term in analogy with "fools gold" where a prospector = thinks he has found some gold but it isn't really gold. Similarly, some = of the heat of the Paterson cell output could in a sense be unreal as it = could be dissipated as the maximum entropy state is achieved. This term = need not be taken to be derogatory at this stage as nearly 100% of the = Paterson cell investigators know about this potential problem and how to = check for it. So one could view it as like many prospectors setting out = to find the mother lode of gold and they know how to detect fools gold = and will not be fooled by it. If they strike the mother lode it will be = real gold. = Continuing on with the entropy analysis, lets suppose that we have = hot water mixed with ice (in the Paterson cell lithium sulfate salt = crystals would take the place of the ice) such that upon melting of the = ice the water would be at room temperature. My best guess, at this = time, of the entropy dependence on the temperature of this mixture is = = S = 2 * Cv * log( T ) = = with S the entropy, Cv the specific heat at constant volume and T the = temperature. This is twice the usual expression. My argument for the = factor of two is as follows: Suppose we extract the energy potential of = the hot water, through a Carnot cycle, quickly enough so that very = little of the ice would melt. Then we would have the ordered energy = extracted from the hot water, water at room temperature, and the ice. = The ice could then melt and cool off the water an amount opposite the = amount it was heated. This cold water would have approximately the same = ordered energy potential as the hot water and it could be extracted, = with a Carnot cycle, giving the final maximum entropy state of room = temperature water with no ice. = In other words, if the excess heat of the outflow of the Paterson = cell is combined with a negative potential energy such that there would = be no net energy gain in the cell, then the value, for purposes of = converting to ordered energy, of the apparent excess heat is double the = usual result. Let me express this as a theorem: = = If the Paterson cell produces no excess energy then the heat produced = has twice the usual value for the purpose of converting to ordered = energy. = = So fools heat has zero value for heating but double the value for = generating ordered energy. That is something to think about. = = Lawrence E. Wharton wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov = NASA/GSFC code 913, Greenbelt MD 20771 = work (301) 286-3486, home (301) 595-5038 Mr. Wharton would benefit by reexamining dimensional analysis or any thermo book whatsoever. He claims, or made up or did guess, that S = 2 * Cv * log( T ) and continues his analysis from there. IMHO, there are two ways to quickly know one is possibly incorrect in the present incarnation of his formula. They are: ------------------------------------------- 1) Try to exponentiate both sides. T = exp (S/(2*Cv)) Wharton's presumtive eq. S/(2*Cv) must have no units. But S is not dimensionally the reciprocal of Cv, is it? 2) The general thermodynamic differential equation of temperature, entropy and energy is: 1/T = dS/dE and for Cv, Cv = T(dS/dT)v So if Wharton is correct then substitution would lead to something such as dT/(T*log(T)) = 2 dS/S Wharton's presumtive eq Integrating both sides of Wharton's presumtive eq links temperature and energy but has nothing to do with energy, or dS/dE. Furthermore it also appears dimensionally incorrect. Q.E.D. -------------------------------------------------- [ Mr. Wharton was better off when he was only wrong by a "minus sign". ;-)X ] Best wishes Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 07:29:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id HAA16103 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 07:10:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (climate-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.251.148]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA16080 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 07:09:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.183.89.65] (macwharton.gsfc.nasa.gov) by climate.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA040007392; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:09:52 -0500 X-Sender: wharton@climate Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:10:15 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (Larry Wharton) Subject: Re: vtx: Larry's fools heat. Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Martin, Your numbers appear valid and you are right, there is some problem with my internal heat pump theory. I already knew there was a problem. The main point of my posting is that there is another factor of 2 going against it. To see this lets suppose that we filter out the salt crystals in the cell outflow. Then we would have normal heat and work could be extracted from the entropy difference with the ambient state. We could then combine the filtered salt crystals with the water, now at the ambient temperature, and it should cool off. An approximately equal amount of work could be extracted from this cooler temperature solution. So you may take your numbers and divide out another factor of 2 in addition to the recombination factor. For the SOFE demo we would need about .12 watts total power in and .09 watts of power being supplied by the pump (.09 + .06/2 = .12). That is a small amount of power which the pump could supply. The PowerGen 95 numbers are not too reliable and I don't think they should be trusted. Note that the problem of prior charging up of the system is a much more critical issue is one only is to require about 20 watts of input power to the cell in order to supply the heat pump power. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 07:33:57 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id HAA17482 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 07:18:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (climate-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.251.148]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA17457 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 07:18:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.183.89.65] (macwharton.gsfc.nasa.gov) by climate.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA041617912; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:18:32 -0500 X-Sender: wharton@climate Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:18:57 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (Larry Wharton) Subject: Re: vtx: Larry's "fool's heat" Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, You are right, there should be a cool place somewhere down the loop but only if enough of the excess heat is being extracted. If the rate of heat extracted exceeds the electrolysis power in plus the pump power delivered to the water stream then there must be some cool areas along the loop. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 04:02:32 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id IAA29324 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 08:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA29307 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 08:28:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA11714; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:28:23 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03324; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:26:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:26:03 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602261626.AA03324@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Wharton's "Fools heat" analysis (dimensional analysis) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In Subject: vtx: Wharton's "Fools heat" analysis (dimensional analysis) mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) wrote: "But S is not dimensionally the reciprocal of Cv, is it?" Actually it is, and after more reflection, I think Larry Wharton is correct on this matter. Not certain, however, about the factor of 2. [+/-2 ;-)X ] Also, this putative lithium crystal effect, if it exists, probably could not account for the excess heat since it is not a sine qua non for the reactions. Best wishes Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 09:39:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id JAA07189 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 09:15:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA07138 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 09:15:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.76] ([204.57.193.76]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA19964 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 08:12:31 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 08:20:26 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Larry's "fool's heat" Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Scott, > You are right, there should be a cool place somewhere down the loop but >only if enough of the excess heat is being extracted. If the rate of heat >extracted exceeds the electrolysis power in plus the pump power delivered >to the water stream then there must be some cool areas along the loop. > >Lawrence E. Wharton Could the cool area be between the cathode and anode? Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 10:26:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id KAA17143 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:10:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA17085 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:10:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.80] ([204.57.193.80]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA20217 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 09:06:50 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 09:14:43 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Larry's "fool's heat" Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Scott, > You are right, there should be a cool place somewhere down the loop but >only if enough of the excess heat is being extracted. If the rate of heat >extracted exceeds the electrolysis power in plus the pump power delivered >to the water stream then there must be some cool areas along the loop. > >Lawrence E. Wharton Here is a thought for an experiment: - (cathode) 2(H2O) + (e-) -> OH- + 2(H2) I I Li+ + e- -> Li + 5.39172 eV I I 2(H2O2) -> O2 + 2(H2O) + (-196 kJ/mol enthalpy) I I I I ---->-P1--C--T1-->-- ^ I Li + H2O -> LiOH -> (Li+) + (OH-) I I T4 I I I DG1-->O2 + H2O2 DG2 --> H2 + H2O2 I I I T2 I I I v ----<-T3--A---<-P2-- I I I 2(OH-) - 2(e-) -> H2O2 I I 2(H2O2) -> 2(H2O) + O2 I I + (anode) (OH-) - (e-) -> Here the cathode (C) and anode (A) are separated by TMS's Tn and degassing stations DGn. The electrolyte is driven by pumps Pn. The degassing stations DGn operate in drip mode, preventing any actual electron current through the electrolyte. Is T1 << T3 ? This should be easy for me to give a try to soon. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 04:08:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id KAA25215 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA25109 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:53:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id NAA23147; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:52:08 -0500 Date: 26 Feb 96 13:47:07 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Radiometer Message-ID: <960226184706_100060.173_JHB107-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mark, >> All you need to do is put a transformer on it, and you should get the desired result. You might have to get a 50cycle to 60 cycle converter transformer to get the same MOTOR speed out of it << The 50 - 60 Hz conversion is simple arithmetic as far as the time-base is concerned if the motor is synchronous. What is bothering me is the calibration for the distance from and the size of the emitting source. Is it supposed to be used with a calibrated masking plate between the sensor and the target? Looking at the area of the sensor, 11cm x 9cm, and its scuffed condition, it is probably miles away from its original calibration anyway. I suppose it is possible to re-calibrate by using a known output source and a timer. Is re- blacking with a matt-black paint is out of the question? >> My 2400 square foot, 1/3 acre, brick house in the Lake Minnetonka area seemed to be about equivalent to what sells for $750,000 in GB. << Location is everything here, and the Thomas' house is in a very pleasant area close by an olde worlde village which has been preserved. Mind you, looking at some current US offerings by Lennar Homes at Clermont, Florida the value for money seems fantastic compared with what we have to pay here. The prices range from $79,000 to $120,000 for floor areas from 1087 to 1975 with comprehensive fittings and in 1/4 acre. Mind you there are service charges of about $3000 p.a. depending on the level of service you choose, but compared with the same size here in similar settings ours are 3 to 4 times your prices, at least in Florida. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 04:08:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id KAA25215 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA25109 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:53:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id NAA23147; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:52:08 -0500 Date: 26 Feb 96 13:47:07 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Radiometer Message-ID: <960226184706_100060.173_JHB107-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: D Mark, >> All you need to do is put a transformer on it, and you should get the desired result. You might have to get a 50cycle to 60 cycle converter transformer to get the same MOTOR speed out of it << The 50 - 60 Hz conversion is simple arithmetic as far as the time-base is concerned if the motor is synchronous. What is bothering me is the calibration for the distance from and the size of the emitting source. Is it supposed to be used with a calibrated masking plate between the sensor and the target? Looking at the area of the sensor, 11cm x 9cm, and its scuffed condition, it is probably miles away from its original calibration anyway. I suppose it is possible to re-calibrate by using a known output source and a timer. Is re- blacking with a matt-black paint is out of the question? >> My 2400 square foot, 1/3 acre, brick house in the Lake Minnetonka area seemed to be about equivalent to what sells for $750,000 in GB. << Location is everything here, and the Thomas' house is in a very pleasant area close by an olde worlde village which has been preserved. Mind you, looking at some current US offerings by Lennar Homes at Clermont, Florida the value for money seems fantastic compared with what we have to pay here. The prices range from $79,000 to $120,000 for floor areas from 1087 to 1975 with comprehensive fittings and in 1/4 acre. Mind you there are service charges of about $3000 p.a. depending on the level of service you choose, but compared with the same size here in similar settings ours are 3 to 4 times your prices, at least in Florida. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 12:55:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id MAA13005 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 12:36:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA12989 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 12:35:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id OAA09124; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 14:47:00 -0500 Date: 26 Feb 96 13:47:14 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Radiometer Message-ID: <960226184713_100060.173_JHB107-3@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mark, >> All you need to do is put a transformer on it, and you should get the desired result. You might have to get a 50cycle to 60 cycle converter transformer to get the same MOTOR speed out of it << Did that and carried out a simple test as follows: Using a quartz-halogen lamp with a rectangular reflector as the heat source - placing the bulb centre 1.5cm above the 100 cm^2 sensor, with the whole of the illuminated area within the area of the sensor I ran the test. 1 Placed a digital voltmeter (Precision Gold M285) set to the 200mv . range directly across the output terminals of the radiometer. 2 Set the voltage feeding the radiometer at 115 vac from a calibrated variac transformer and switched on fan motor. 3 Took a reading of the voltmeter before any power supplied to the lamp, . with the room thermostat set at 20 deg C. (circulating air type air . conditioner controls the room temp. which had been running all morning . until time of test 11.30am). . Initial "cold" reading 0.00 millivolts - stable over several minutes. 4 switched on lamp. . The output reading climbed rapidly to a value of 3.2 mv where it . stabilised. 5 Switched off the radiometer fan, leaving the lamp on. . The output voltage increased to a stable value of 6.4mv 6. Switched off the lamp and back on the fan. The output voltage . returned to 0.00 after a cooling period of a minute or so. The instrument constant K = 188.45 BTU/Hr/ft^2/MV or 0.8522 GM.CAL/cm^2/Hr/MV What power lamp was I using? Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 04:20:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id LAA28471 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:13:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA28401 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:13:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id OAA00241; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 14:11:44 -0500 Date: 26 Feb 96 14:08:54 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Larry's "fool's heat" Message-ID: <960226190854_72240.1256_EHB39-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Horace Heffner asks: "Could the cool area be between the cathode and anode?" No, because the flow calorimetry is performed by comparing the overall temperature rise starting upstream before cathode, to a point downstream, below the anode. If the heat was generated by the cathode and then nullified with a endothermic reaction between anode and cathode, the net result would be zero -- no excess heat, by the time the electrolyte reached the second temperature sensor. Furthermore, the water samples we dumped into the cups from a point far downstream of the outlet sensors would also show no excess heat. Larry Wharton responds to Scott: "You are right, there should be a cool place somewhere down the loop but only if enough of the excess heat is being extracted. If the rate of heat extracted exceeds the electrolysis power in plus the pump power delivered to the water stream then there must be some cool areas along the loop." In every test of every CETI cell with which I am familiar this is the case by a wide margin. Far more energy comes out of the cell than is input by both electrolysis and pump power, as proved in the calibrations. In the Power-Gen demo this can more easily be proved by simple observation: * The fluid temperature drop between the reservoir and the inlet showed 50 to 70 watts being lost. * The heat exchanger fan blows a steady stream of palpably warm air out, which by even the crudest, simplest analysis shows several hundreds watts must be coming from it. * The reservoir radiates heat palpably, far more than, say, a 30 watt compact fluorescent light fixture. Furthermore: * When the pump is run with no input during calibration, the water temperature does not rise measurably. Therefore the motor alone cannot possibly be adding enough heat to cause the net temperature rise. * In calibrations with null electrolysis, no heat rise is seen. No crystals were observed, either. There is so much energy coming out of the system that if it was heat pump, some parts of it would grow so cold they would be covered with frost. Yet all components are much warmer than ambient. Even the smaller, 2 to 20 watt cells clearly exceed the parameters they would have to fit to satisfy this theory. Please note that John Logajan and others estimated how much power the pump adds to the water, base on the amount of fluid it moves and a worst case estimate of the impedance of the circuit. Even at ICCF5 and SOFE there would have to be a palpably cold spot, covered with frost, to satisfy this theory. There was no such spot. I measured the ICCF5 reservoir temperature, it was a couple of degrees above ambient. Furthermore, the smaller CETI cells have been run for weeks at a time so this cannot be a stored chemical energy phenomenon. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 11:31:32 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id LAA27461 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:07:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA27416 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:06:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.80] ([204.57.193.80]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA20438 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:03:35 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:11:27 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Larry's "fool's heat" Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Scott, > You are right, there should be a cool place somewhere down the loop but >only if enough of the excess heat is being extracted. If the rate of heat >extracted exceeds the electrolysis power in plus the pump power delivered >to the water stream then there must be some cool areas along the loop. > >Lawrence E. Wharton Sorry, here is a slightly corrected thought for an experiment: - (cathode) 2(H2O) + (e-) -> 2(OH-) + H2 I I Li+ + e- -> Li + 5.39172 eV I I 2(H2O2) -> O2 + 2(H2O) + (-196 kJ/mol enthalpy) I I I I ---->-P1--C--T1-->-- ^ I Li + H2O -> LiOH -> (Li+) + (OH-) I I T4 I I I DG1-->O2 + H2O2 DG2 --> H2 + H2O2 I I I T2 I I I v ----<-T3--A---<-P2-- I I I 2(OH-) - 2(e-) -> H2O2 I I 2(H2O2) -> 2(H2O) + O2 I I + (anode) (OH-) - (e-) -> Here the cathode (C) and anode (A) are separated by TMS's Tn and degassing stations DGn. The electrolyte is driven by pumps Pn. The degassing stations DGn operate in drip mode, preventing any actual electron current through the electrolyte. Is T1 << T3 ? What is the effect of removing DG2, T2, and P2? This should be easy for me to give a try to soon. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 03:55:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id LAA04957 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:48:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA04879 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:47:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-190.austin.eden.com (net-1-190.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.190]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.4.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id NAA17261 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:46:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:46:59 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602261946.NAA17261@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: heat of solution X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Larry, my books say that the dissolution of Li2SO4 in water is exothermic...not endothermic. If right, this means that a solution of Li2SO4 could theoretically be separated into a stream of COOLER water mixed with salt crystals...not the other way around. ??? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 04:18:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id MAA09153 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 12:12:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (climate-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.251.148]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA09080 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 12:12:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.183.89.65] (macwharton.gsfc.nasa.gov) by climate.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA116675538; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 15:12:18 -0500 X-Sender: wharton@climate Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 15:12:45 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (Larry Wharton) Subject: Re: vtx: Wharton's "Fools heat" analysis (dimensional analysis) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Swartz writes: > T = exp (S/(2*Cv)) Wharton's presumtive eq. > > S/(2*Cv) must have no units. > > But S is not dimensionally the reciprocal of Cv, is it? > No S is of the same dimensions as Cv as it must be for your expression to have no units. If we write out the heat differential we have: dQ = Cv dT = T dS and Cv has the same units as S. Perhaps you are using a different definition of Cv. He then says: >2) The general thermodynamic differential equation of >temperature, entropy and energy is: > > 1/T = dS/dE > no this is not correct, the correct expression is: 1/T = dS/dQ Heat (Q) and energy (E) are different quantities. > and for Cv, > > Cv = T(dS/dT)v > > So if Wharton is correct then substitution >would lead to something such as > >dT/(T*log(T)) = 2 dS/S Wharton's presumtive eq > > Integrating both sides of Wharton's presumtive eq >links temperature and energy >but has nothing to do with energy, or dS/dE. Recall that I noted that my formula was twice the standard result. The standard form is correct and contains the correct dimensions. The temperature part is: dS = dQ/T = Cv dT/T = Cv d(log T) or, assuming that Cv is independent of temperature S = Cv log T Added to this term is another which depends upon the salt concentration and Gibb's potential. The significance of my posting was that the available extractable ordered energy, from this other term, exceed that from the temperature term, thus the factor of two. Perhaps some people have not seen the integral form of the entropy. In calculating the total extractable ordered energy it only these integral forms that will appear. > [ Mr. Wharton was better off when he was only wrong > by a "minus sign". ;-)X ] There is no minus sign problem. Mitchell thought that I had one but there was no such problem. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 13:43:56 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id NAA21546 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:23:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA21524 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:23:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamltndt.cias.com (hamltndt.cais.com [205.252.26.60]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.10/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA24224 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 16:23:41 -0500 Message-ID: <31322561.7E@cais.com> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 16:25:53 -0500 From: Danny and Terry Hamilton X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0GoldB1 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Wave Theory Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Retransmitted in part: "Has anyone on vortex-l looked into wave theory as a theoretical explanation of excess energy? Two lines of thought. (1) The electrical current (viewed as a waveform) establishing some type of resonance of ? something. (2) The molecular structure somehow focusing the electrical waveform analogous to a magnifying glass focusing sunlight to start a fire. Or maybe a combination of both?" Has anyone measured the electrical current across the Patterson Cell with sufficient accuracy to see any unexplained lose in current? We would appreciate any comment back. also A paper by a WALTER E.R CASSANI, at http://www.inet.it/ospiti/cassani/index.html, talks to this concept relative to CF. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Danny and Terry Hamilton hamltndt@cais.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 18:01:46 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id RAA05548 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 17:44:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA05513 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 17:44:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [199.165.120.42] ([199.165.120.42]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA22585 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 16:40:58 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 16:48:56 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Larry's "fool's heat" Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sorry, main brain is not working very well today. Here is a once again slightly corrected thought for an experiment: - (cathode) 2(H2O) + 2(e-) -> 2(OH-) + H2 I I (Li+) + (e-) -> Li + 5.39172 eV (battery effect) I I I I I I ---->-T4--C--T1-->-- ^ I 2(Li) + 2(H2O) -> 2(LiOH) + H2 I I LiOH -> (Li+) + (OH-) P1 I I I DG1-->O2 + H2O2 DG2 --> H2 + H2O2 I I I P2 I I I v ----<-T3--A---<-T2-- I I I (anode) 2(OH-) - 2(e-) -> H2O2 I I 2(H2O2) -> 2(H2O) + O2 I I + Here the cathode (C) and anode (A) are separated by TMS's Tn and degassing stations DGn. The electrolyte is driven by pumps Pn. Exactly one of the degassing stations DGn operate in drip mode, preventing any actual electron current through the electrolyte via that path. Is T1 << T3 ? What is the effect of removing current in DG1's path vs DG2, or removing DG1 or DG2? If one path is hot should the other be cold? This should be easy for me to give a try to soon. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 03:52:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id SAA12761 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 18:26:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA12696 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 18:25:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-35.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-35.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.35]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA08587 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:22:38 +1100 (EST) From: rvanspaa@netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Radiometer Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 03:26:59 GMT Organization: Improving Message-Id: <31326946.11009496@mail.netspace.net.au> References: <960226184713_100060.173_JHB107-3@CompuServe.COM> In-Reply-To: <960226184713_100060.173_JHB107-3@CompuServe.COM> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/16.182 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 26 Feb 96 13:47:14 EST, Norman Horwood wrote: >Mark, > > >> All you need to do is put a transformer on it, and you should get the >desired result. You might have to get a 50cycle to 60 cycle converter >transformer to get the same MOTOR speed out of it << > >Did that and carried out a simple test as follows: > >Using a quartz-halogen lamp with a rectangular reflector as the heat source - >placing the bulb centre 1.5cm above the 100 cm^2 sensor, with the whole of the >illuminated area within the area of the sensor I ran the test. > >1 Placed a digital voltmeter (Precision Gold M285) set to the 200mv >. range directly across the output terminals of the radiometer. > >2 Set the voltage feeding the radiometer at 115 vac from a calibrated > variac transformer and switched on fan motor. > >3 Took a reading of the voltmeter before any power supplied to the lamp, >. with the room thermostat set at 20 deg C. (circulating air type air >. conditioner controls the room temp. which had been running all morning >. until time of test 11.30am). > >. Initial "cold" reading 0.00 millivolts - stable over several minutes. > >4 switched on lamp. > >. The output reading climbed rapidly to a value of 3.2 mv where it >. stabilised. > >5 Switched off the radiometer fan, leaving the lamp on. > >. The output voltage increased to a stable value of 6.4mv > >6. Switched off the lamp and back on the fan. The output voltage >. returned to 0.00 after a cooling period of a minute or so. > >The instrument constant K = 188.45 BTU/Hr/ft^2/MV or 0.8522 GM.CAL/cm^2/Hr/MV > >What power lamp was I using? > >Norman. > > Using the 6.4 mV reading without the fan turned on, I get 38.047 watt, so my guess is you were using a 40 watt bulb. This assumes that the whole of the sensor area (i.e. 100 cm^2) was illuminated, and not just some of it. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 03:37:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id SAA12804 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 18:26:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (root@netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA12717 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 18:25:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-a1-35.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-35.mel.netspace.net.au [203.12.52.35]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA08596 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:22:44 +1100 (EST) From: rvanspaa@netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: hows that look Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 03:27:05 GMT Organization: Improving Message-Id: <31326aad.11368541@mail.netspace.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/16.182 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 25 Feb 1996 20:10:20 PST, MHUGO@EPRI wrote: >*** Reply to note of 02/24/96 17:46 >From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >Subject: vtx: hows that look >Frank: Do you want a RUDE awakening? Don't even THINK of mentioning your >ZPE or Cold Fusion interests as ANYTHING but hobby interest in an >employment situation. If you do you will have NOTHING but the waste can >for your resume. This is the TRUTH, not fiction. The world is NOT a kind >place to revolutionaries. They are for the most part isolated or eliminated. On the other hand Frank, if you are prepared to go to LOTS of interviews, then you may eventually find someone who will appreciate what you want to do. > > Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 00:18:42 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id AAA05292 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 00:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from bos1g.delphi.com (SYSTEM@bos1g.delphi.com [192.80.63.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA05269 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 00:08:00 -0800 (PST) From: JOEFLYNN@delphi.com Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V5.0-5 #10880) id <01I1OYB4ZVUO9FS7MW@delphi.com> for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 03:07:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 03:07:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: vtx: Larry's "fool's heat" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <01I1OYB505HU9FS7MW@delphi.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"vortex-l@eskimo.com" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: An interesting experiment on a working cell would be to extract the heat at the same rate it is being produced, might answer some questions??? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 05:29:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id FAA02561 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 05:18:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA02554 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 05:17:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-1-146.austin.eden.com (net-1-146.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.146]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.4.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id HAA07236 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:17:56 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:17:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602271317.HAA07236@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: Scott Little & Wire seals X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike, thank you and your friend....that wire feedthru is indeed a slick little arrangement...next time I'll use it. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 06:44:58 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id GAA10915 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 06:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA10903 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 06:24:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [199.165.120.37] ([199.165.120.37]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA25788 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 05:21:47 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 05:29:23 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Larry's "fool's heat" & new cell design Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >To: Vortex > >Horace Heffner asks: > > "Could the cool area be between the cathode and anode?" > >No, because the flow calorimetry is performed by comparing the overall >temperature rise starting upstream before cathode, to a point downstream, >below the anode. If the heat was generated by the cathode and then nullified >with a endothermic reaction between anode and cathode, the net result would be >zero -- no excess heat, by the time the electrolyte reached the second >temperature sensor. Furthermore, the water samples we dumped into the cups >from a point far downstream of the outlet sensors would also show no excess >heat. > [snip] > >- Jed I lean toward your conclusion, but I think it is interresting to bandy around ideas like this to come up with cases to measure. I think data is better than deduction, though, and tinkering sometimes gives unexpected results, and thinking about potential new results gives new ideas. Here is an example of an idea I had for a new cell geometry generated by thinking about this discussion: To Electrolysis Anode ^ I I Electrolyte Flow I I I I ------I I------ I I I I I I <------- insulating walls of cathode cell I I I I I I I ........... I I .ooooooooo. I +I .ooooooooo. I+ +I .ooooooooo. I+ +I .ooooooooo. I+ +I .ooooooooo. I+ +I .ooooooooo. I+ +I .ooooooooo. I+ +I .ooooooooo. I+++++ High voltage DC anode insulated from electrolyte I .ooIxxxIoo. I ------I I------ I I xxx is Pt screen connected to electrolysis cathode ... is electically non-conductive mesh screen ^ I I Electrolyte Flow The anode can be placed in the cathode cell or elsewhere. The idea here is that the electrolysis current is carried by cations, not free electron flow. If this is the case, a strong field gradient is only needed at the cathode bead surface, not through the electrolyte. The fluid flow can carry the cations without the aid of an electric field gradient. A small gradient is needed to maintain sufficient current for the anode to complete the electrolysis. This is like a van de Graff generator for cations. This raises the question: In a Patterson Power Cell, is the fluid between the electrolysis anode and cathode negatively charged? It appears so. If so, the anode need only be a piece of Pt wire inside the electrolyte tubing, and the tubing covered with grounded conductive foil. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 06:55:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id GAA13734 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 06:43:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA13720 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 06:43:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id JAA20968; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:41:58 -0500 Date: 27 Feb 96 09:40:24 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: Radiometer Message-ID: <960227144024_100060.173_JHB73-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin says: >> Using the 6.4 mV reading without the fan turned on, I get 38.047 watt, so my guess is you were using a 40 watt bulb. << Which is interesting and close. So what is the fan doing? Is it needed only for looking at very high temperatures to safeguard the sensor, or must it be run to get the "true" power radiated? With the 3.2mV reading you only get about 20 watts. In fact the lamp is 50 Watts, and in fairly new condition, but the voltage here is slightly lower than its rating of 240v, being 230 giving its pro-rata rating as 47.9 W. It looks as though the fan cooler is either unnecessary at these relatively low temperatures or the calibration has gone funny. Thank you Robin. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Mon Feb 26 23:08:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id WAA26415 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 22:56:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA26403 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 22:56:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from s4c1p4.aa.net (d112.aa.net [204.157.220.112]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA03281 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 22:51:21 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602270651.WAA03281@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 22:55:56 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: vtx: Scott Little & Wire seals Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, an engineering friend of mine wants me to pass this tip onto you. > >>this might be an excellant opportunity to offer a little favor for Scott >>Little in the way of an idea of two... >> >>>X-POP3-Rcpt: mwm@big >>>Return-Path: vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com >>>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 09:10:22 +0100 (MET) >>>From: Dieter Britz >>>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>Subject: Re: vtx: wire seals >>>Sender: owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com >>>Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>> >>>On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Scott Little wrote: >>> >>>> I'm looking for ideas on sealing a wire as it passes thru a plastic wall >>>> (into the interior of a CF cell). I would like to seal directly to the >wire >>>> without adding anything to the wire (it's expensive Pt). The wire diameter >>>> is 0.018". I've tried -001 O-rings but I can't seem to make them squeeze >>>> down tightly onto the wire. The seal needs to be something that can be >>>> assembled and disassembled...i.e. not epoxy. Custom machining is readily >>>> available. >>> >>>Might be worth asking this on sci.chem.electrochem. In electrochemistry, >>>you often read about "press fit" of metal electrodes into PTFE. I believe >>>the stuff gives a bit and seals tightly around the metal. I've had the >>>workshop do this for me, although this was 4 mm rod. I don't suppose >>>it'd be easy to push a roughly 0.5 mm Pt wire into a PTFE hole, but I'd say >>>it's possible. How about doing this once, into a, say, 5 mm diameter PTFE >>>rod, which you could then more easily put into and take out of your plastic >>>cell wall? There is also heat-shrink PTFE. >>> >>>-- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk >>> >>> >>____________________________________ >>MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing >>Michael Mandeville, publisher >>mwm@aa.net >>http://www.aa.net/~mwm >> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>00000<<<<<<<<<< > >Mike > >You might pass this bit on to Scott as another suggestion for handeling >small metallic feedthroughs in PFA or PTFE. The technique uses PEEK or >TEFZEL chromatography tubing to take the diameter from .018" ,or whatever >one has, up to the standard 1/16" diameter required for chromatographic >fittings.There is a range of small IDs available with 1/16" OD. > >First the PTFE piece is drilled and threaded to accept the male threads of >the chromatographic fitting. These will either be 1/4-28 or 10-32. A .063" >hole extends from the bottom of the threaded hole through the PTFE piece. >The wire is threaded through the tubing (snug fit) and the tubing then >inserted into the fitting which is in turn fitted into the threaded hole and >tightened. A PEEK ferrule inside the fitting is compressed evinly around the >tubing squeezing it tightly onto the wire and thereby making the seal. > >This technique has been used with good success at pressures of up to 3500 >psi and makes for simple inexpensive solution to a somewhat awkward problem. > >All bits needed to implement this solution may be found in the high pressure >liquid chromatography section of any good lab supply house. See pages 133 >through 147 of Cole-Palmer 1996 catalogue. > >Best Regards > ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 07:22:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id HAA17661 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:09:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA17649 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:09:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQaesy00959; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 10:09:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14574; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:09:42 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 772708070096058FEPRI; 27 Feb 1996 07:08:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 27 Feb 1996 07:08:07 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Radiometer To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/27/96 07:08:27 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/27/96 04:08 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Radiometer Norman: I would recommend taking some CARBON BLACK and rubbing it on the sensin g surface. That, for 100 years, has been one of the best "black body" absorbers . Then, indeed, calibration may be done with some sort of radiative source. This is not an exotic device, only a clever one! Good luck Norman, should you or your compatriots be caught or killed, I will deny any knowledge of your actions. As usual, this Email will self destruct when you erase it. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 08:08:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id HAA25632 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:55:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA25620 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQaesz01814; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 10:15:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30814; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:15:42 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 191315070096058FEPRI; 27 Feb 1996 07:15:07 PST Message-Id: Date: 27 Feb 1996 07:15:07 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Radiometer To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/27/96 07:15:12 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/27/96 03:58 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Radiometer Norman, looks like 600 BTU/Hr/Ft**2. Since you have about .11 ft**2, I'd say 60 BTU per hour, now I'm going to throw in what we call a "shape factor" in radiation heat transfer. It gives an idea of what % of the emitter is falling on the surface. I'd say 2 to 3 in this case, so using 2.5 I'd have 150 BTU per hour, divide by 3.4 BTU/HR/Watt gives around 20 watts. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 07:43:24 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id HAA21106 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (climate-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.251.148]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA21073 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:27:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.183.89.65] (macwharton.gsfc.nasa.gov) by climate.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA014564857; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 10:27:37 -0500 X-Sender: wharton@climate Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 10:27:40 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (Larry Wharton) Subject: Re: vtx: heat of solution Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Larry, my books say that the dissolution of Li2SO4 in water is >exothermic...not endothermic. > >If right, this means that a solution of Li2SO4 could theoretically be >separated into a stream of COOLER water mixed with salt crystals...not the >other way around. > >??? Scott, You are right, Li2SO4 would not work and some other salt or chemical must be found. I would guess that there are some logical candidates and some have been suggested here on Vortex. I was assuming that John White had his numbers right when he worked out his salt theory. No one pointed any problems along thoes lines at the time. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 05:46:22 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id HAA25211 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA25172 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:52:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA29335; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 16:52:29 +0100 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 16:52:29 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: heat of solution In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 27 Feb 1996, Larry Wharton wrote: > >Larry, my books say that the dissolution of Li2SO4 in water is > >exothermic...not endothermic. > > > >If right, this means that a solution of Li2SO4 could theoretically be > >separated into a stream of COOLER water mixed with salt crystals...not the > >other way around. > > > >??? > Scott, > You are right, Li2SO4 would not work and some other salt or chemical must > be found. I would guess that there are some logical candidates and some > have been suggested here on Vortex. I was assuming that John White had his > numbers right when he worked out his salt theory. No one pointed any > problems along thoes lines at the time. I don't look at spf anymore but assume that you are referring to a posting there. This White bloke has posted his peroxide theory before and I have knocked it down with the message, "Forget peroxide!". He persists. I am a skeptic but I can tell you that none of these piddling chemical effects can explain the sort of numbers people are claiming. If you invoke Li deposition and its redissolution, you have the problem that the total process is neutral, no net heat can come out of it. The complicated scheme I saw early today, when you add it up, still comes to nothing more than water electrolysis. Li2SO4 is an inert electrolyte under these conditions and all that will happen to it is that it will concentrate slightly as you lose water. Even if peroxide were to form - which it will not - its thermodynamics would be negligible. Neither will you draw sufficient heat from gravity effects, convection or temperature gradients in this sort of cell. I don't know where the explanation lies, but not in these effects. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 05:18:30 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id JAA07487 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:01:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA07452 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:00:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [199.165.120.44] ([199.165.120.44]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA26390 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:57:49 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 08:05:26 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Radiometer Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >The instrument constant K = 188.45 BTU/Hr/ft^2/MV or 0.8522 GM.CAL/cm^2/Hr/MV > >What power lamp was I using? > >Norman. I wrote: (3.2 mv) (0.8522 g.cal/cm^2)/hr/mv (3600s/hr)(4.19J/g.cal) (1/100 cm^2)= (3.2) (128.55 W) = 411 W My guess is a 400 W bulb, or a higher wattage (say 450 or 500 W) bulb and the internal supply voltage is low due to the 50 Hz. supply. So where did I go wrong? .8522 x 3600 x 4.19 / 100 = 128.55 check So it should be 128.6 W/mV right? There are 4.19 J/GM.CAL true? Help! Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 05:02:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id KAA26675 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 10:46:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from oroboros.demon.co.uk (oroboros.demon.co.uk [158.152.100.96]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA26636 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 10:46:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:39:35 GMT From: CRSM@oroboros.demon.co.uk (Chris Morriss) Message-Id: <16867@oroboros.demon.co.uk> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Radiometer X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Lines: 11 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Norman, you forgot to multiply 50W by (230/240)^2. I think your 50W bulb was dissipating 45.9W, although the filament will be at a lower temperature than before, so will have a lower resistance, making the true dissipation slightly higher (than 45.9 if you see what I mean). Perhaps the calibration mismatch is simply because the collector plate requires a new matt-black coating to absorb a bit more of the energy? -- Chris Morriss From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 18:41:13 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id SAA23323 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:27:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA23255 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:26:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from dacha (eb4ppp24.shentel.net [204.111.1.184]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id VAA15221 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 21:28:53 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 21:27:42 From: dacha@shentel.net Subject: RE: vtx: wire seals To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-PRIORITY: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: Chameleon B95_14, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Scott, I think, knowing your expertise in this area that my suggestion is most likely an over simplification....but.... In cases such as this I have often used a threaded feed-through and attached the conductor to the section inside the vessel using silver solder. Good luck, Robert ------------------------------------- Name: dacha E-mail: dacha@visor.com Date: 2/23/96 Time: 12:08:25 AM http://www.visor.com/info ------------------------------------- From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 05:11:44 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id OAA09911 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 14:25:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA09863 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 14:25:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA05739; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:23:51 -0500 Date: 27 Feb 96 17:20:01 EST From: Dean Miller <75110.3417@compuserve.com> To: vortex list Subject: vtx: Scott Little & Wire seals Message-ID: <960227222001_75110.3417_CHK63-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Scott, These are probably some stupid thoughts, but here goes. The few times I had to put wires into a sealed environment, I made a hole in the tube, inserted a solid plastic grommet, then heated the wire and pushed it through the grommet. The hot wire melted the grommet just enough to fit the wire and on cooling had a tight seal. Another thought for sealing is a tube of sealant Radio Shack sells for about $3. It's non-conductive and supposedly won't contaminate (or be dissolved) a liquid. It's intended specifically seal wires in water-based environments. Dean -- from Des Moines From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 15:27:37 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id PAA18099 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 15:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA18076 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 15:07:32 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA17147 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:06:15 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:06:15 -0500 Message-ID: <960227180615_232736243@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Fwd: Fools heat. Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Fwd: Fools heat. Date: 96-02-26 18:13:09 EST From: FZNIDARSIC To: williams@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu To: 72240.1256@compuserve.com To: zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Fools heat. Date: 96-02-26 18:10:54 EST From: FZNIDARSIC To: vortex-l@eskimo.com That's what I've been saying for years..that is... the positive energy that comes out of the cell is balanced by the production of negative energy. I say this with a twist... The negative energy is not some chemical product but an induced field. The gravitational field contains a negative amount of energy. This negative energy is called negative gravitational potential. How do we make gravity? A changing electric field produces a magnetic field. A changing magnetic field produced an electric field. The explotation of this first principle of symmetry, in the 19th Century, has resulted in the electrical age we live in today. Gravity produces a changing momentum (a force). A force produces gravity. gravity (in newtons/kg) = (GM/ccr) (dp/dt) We can make gravity by employing the symmetrical relationship between force and gravity. The explotation of this second principle of symmetry will result in a new age of unlimited energy. My study has shown. A wave of gravity contains a postive amount of entropy. This positive entropy can be balanced by a local decrease in entropy. The induction of gravitational waves can reduce entropy locally. This results in the hot and cold spots produced by superfluid helium as it flows through small channels. This effects is called the mechano-caloric effect.. A permanent new field represents negative energy. The production of positive local energy is produced as a result. This is where CETI's energy comes from. Gravitons have a spin of two...photons have a spin of one. To produce new energy angular momentum must be supplied. Zero point systems convey angular momentum through a vibrational mechanism know an a phonon. Add angular momentum..and ...ureeka.... A photon is emitted, a graviton is emitted, and new energy is produced by a process of genesis. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 02:45:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id CAA18214 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 02:36:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA18147; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 02:35:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c0p5.aa.net (s3c0p5.aa.net [204.157.220.137]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA11923; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 02:35:20 -0800 Message-Id: <199602271035.CAA11923@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 02:34:54 +0800 To: phoenix@eskimo.com, ghawk@eskimo.com, palbank@eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com, freenrg-list@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: vtx: RE: NETIZENS ALERT AND JAVA Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well, I obtained a little satisfaction. They, the Money Page, turned off the Java Script. They aren't talking to me yet though. So at this point I have decided not to flame them directly. They are acting responsibly. It's a nice site with many good references. I still intend to collect for lost time, though. This issue of JAVA is only beginning to be joined. Prophecy: eventually you too are going to get your butt bit by a Java Jive artist. I think this story, minus the actual site, needs to be written and circulated in the Net. I am going to create a special web page about this and inform you of its url. Sorry Vortex and Free Energy Lists, this is way off your topics. I just had to communicate this issue and this one will affect you all. Although this was an accident due to an arrogant intrusion with buggy software, others will come along with genuine intent to commit a cyber-mugging, whether for personal information about your computer and your computing habit, or your software choices, or just for the hell of it, or searching for passwords, etc. The JAVA concept is the point of entry for this type of mischief, which is designed to enable small time software programmers to easily create and incorporate all kinds of batch executables through the Netscape interface to run on your system. There is only one thing we can tell these people: NOT ON MY COMPUTER. Naturally, they will claim that Netscape/Java program does not provide ability to function out of the Netscape parameters. But hey, once you are on Internet with a session address, you too can be summoned through ftp from a third party, such as might be initiated by a JAVA call...I just will not believe for a minute that they can prevent hackers and crackers from creating all sorts of end runs...and biting you good. I can see the whole generation of virus designers moving into this fertile new territory, well in advance of anybody's thoughts of user security. Think long and hard about this, my friends. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 18:30:08 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id SAA21146 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:14:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA21129 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQaeuq06914; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 21:14:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14454; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:14:06 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 003213180096058FEPRI; 27 Feb 1996 18:13:18 PST Message-Id: Date: 27 Feb 1996 18:13:18 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Radiometer To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/27/96 18:13:31 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/27/96 17:13 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Radiometer The fan keeps a laminar boundary layer on the sensor. It ELIMINATES convective transfer to the sensor. Very important component. Maybe some reference in a technical library near you? Good luck Norman. Again thanks for the assistance. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 17:13:55 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id RAA09532 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:04:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.9.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA09518 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:04:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id UAA19627; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 20:03:11 -0500 Date: 27 Feb 96 20:02:44 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Radiometer Message-ID: <960228010244_100060.173_JHB69-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mark, >> I'd say 2 to 3 in this case, so using 2.5 I'd have 150 BTU per hour, divide by 3.4 BTU/HR/Watt gives around 20 watts. << I still don't know what the fan is supposed to do, cos it modifies the reading significantly. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 20:00:48 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id TAA07861 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 19:49:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA07812 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 19:48:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-3-186.austin.eden.com (net-3-186.austin.eden.com [206.81.226.186]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.4.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id VAA01001 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 21:48:41 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 21:48:41 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602280348.VAA01001@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: RE: vtx: wire seals X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >In cases such as this I have often used a threaded >feed-through and attached the conductor to the section >inside the vessel using silver solder. > >Good luck, > >Robert Robert, Thanks for a practical suggestion but I can't have any "other" metals in contact with the electrolyte...it's got to be only Pt...at least for now. I completed my cell and starting running water through it today. It works fine...the tiny rubber packing gland seals that I made for the wire are holding just great. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 20:03:17 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id TAA08512 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 19:52:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA08503 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 19:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-3-186.austin.eden.com (net-3-186.austin.eden.com [206.81.226.186]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.4.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id VAA01331 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 21:52:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 21:52:23 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602280352.VAA01331@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: after loading? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'm still looking for comments on this apparent paradox: We're supposed to load "slow"...everyone agrees on that. But then, as far as I can tell, we're supposed to turn the current DOWN after that to get to the levels that have typically been reported for the Patterson cell. So is the loading really "fast" instead of "slow"? ? ? ? ? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 12:10:20 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id LAA09602 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 11:53:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA09586 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 11:53:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from s3c1p0.aa.net (s3c1p0.aa.net [204.157.220.140]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA03212 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 11:53:44 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602271953.LAA03212@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 11:53:16 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: hows that look Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank: don't be in a hurry to leave present comfort. There are several birdies in the woodwork all chirping the same message: tis early springtime in the paradigm shift - keep looking and hitch your wagon to a new rising star. I think several will emerge this year in the energy/transmutation field. Go west, young man, go to the Colorado conference... At 03:27 AM 2/27/96 GMT, you wrote: >On 25 Feb 1996 20:10:20 PST, MHUGO@EPRI wrote: > >>*** Reply to note of 02/24/96 17:46 >>From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. >>Subject: vtx: hows that look >>Frank: Do you want a RUDE awakening? Don't even THINK of mentioning your >>ZPE or Cold Fusion interests as ANYTHING but hobby interest in an >>employment situation. If you do you will have NOTHING but the waste can >>for your resume. This is the TRUTH, not fiction. The world is NOT a kind >>place to revolutionaries. They are for the most part isolated or eliminated. > >On the other hand Frank, if you are prepared to go to LOTS of >interviews, then you may eventually find someone who will appreciate >what you want to do. >> >> > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* >Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, >Learns all his life, >And leaves knowing nothing. >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Tue Feb 27 22:10:55 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id WAA00349 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 22:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA00341 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 22:01:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id AAA14022; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 00:59:53 -0500 Date: 28 Feb 96 00:58:36 EST From: Dean Miller <75110.3417@compuserve.com> To: vortex list Subject: vtx: RE: NETIZENS ALERT AND JAVA Message-ID: <960228055836_75110.3417_CHK5-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Michael, >> I think this story, minus the actual site, needs to be written and circulated in the Net. << I'd sure like to see that! Could you include as many exact details as possible, such as what happened the to monitor (and make/model of monitor) and any other details of which you're aware? I can't see how any hardware problems could arise with today's equipment, so I'd sure like to find out exactly what's going on. Dean -- from Des Moines From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 00:08:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id XAA16662 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 23:58:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA16656 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 23:58:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA14301; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 08:58:27 +0100 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 08:58:27 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: after loading? In-Reply-To: <199602280352.VAA01331@natashya.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 27 Feb 1996, Scott Little wrote: > I'm still looking for comments on this apparent paradox: > > We're supposed to load "slow"...everyone agrees on that. But then, as far as > I can tell, we're supposed to turn the current DOWN after that to get to the > levels that have typically been reported for the Patterson cell. > > So is the loading really "fast" instead of "slow"? Sounds like fast loading, relative to what it would have been at the final current densities. But loading is a slow process, being dependent on the diffusion of hydrogen into metal. Diffusion coeffs are very small, and the penetration distance after time t is given by SQRT(pi*D*t), which, when you plug numbers into it, is usually frustratingly small. You are of course lucky in having thin films to load; on the other hand, you are unlucky with a very small D for H in Ni... In the Pd/D "cold fusion" field, current densities below about 100 mA/cm^2 are regarded as low, and people have taken them up to 1A/cm^2, regarded as a bit "heroic"; normal instrumentation hits limits here. What you regard as desirable depends on what theory you subscribe to. If it is "electrochemical pressure" then slowish loading (to ensure even loading, minimise cracking) followed by "the works" - heroic levels - to pour on the pressure, would be ideal. In your case, you trying to emulate the CETI thing, as few deviations from what they do as you can manage is probably the shot. Experiment after you get the same results as the CETI people - if you get them... -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 06:53:00 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id GAA25387 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 06:38:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA25373 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 06:38:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA09677; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:38:12 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25436; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:36:15 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:36:15 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602281436.AA25436@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: heat of solution Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dieter is correct about peroxide. Its concentration is probably micromolar or less. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 07:34:06 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id HAA02818 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 07:22:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from bavaria.utcluj.ro (itimc@[193.226.5.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA02690 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 07:21:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from itimc@localhost) by bavaria.utcluj.ro (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA07040; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:25:33 +0200 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:25:33 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Subject: vtx: lithium sulphate et al. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Larry et al., A) The solubility of Li2SO4 in water (in grams per 100 ml) is 26.1 at 0 deg C and 23 at 100 deg C. In the Patterson Cell one mol, i.e. 110 grams goes in a liter. It cannot crystallize. Nothing and nobody can convince it to get out from the solution. This search is a cul de sac. Let us stop this string and wait for real events, they'll come. B) A good cell has a minimum distance ("zero gap") between the cathode and the anode. A separator and no free space, No place for strange thermodynamics... C) Some new CF papers found in Current Contents: 1] Y. WANG et al: Total energy study of hydrogen ordering in Pd Hx. Physical Rev. B 53:1 Jan 1, 1996 2] A. G. LIPSON et al: Generation of products of nuclear DD synthesis in YBa2Cu3O7-delta Dy high temperature superconductors in the vicinity of superconducting phase tranzitions. Zhurnal Tekhnicheskoi Fiziki 65:8 (AUG 1995) 166-178 3] S. SZPAK et al: On the behavior of the cathodically polarized system Pd/D, Search for emanating radiation. Physics Letters A210:6 (JAN 22, 1996) Unfortunately no news from: Russ George, Piantelli, Miley, Dufour, Reifenschweiler... Peter Gluck From adams@ECE301.ENGR.UTK.EDU Wed Feb 28 09:20:30 1996 Received: from powershare.engr.utk.edu (ECE301.ENGR.UTK.EDU [128.169.101.54]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA23682 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:20:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 28 Feb 1996 12:02:48 -0500 From: "Ray Adams" Subject: Re(2): vtx: re: TaosHum To: "William Beaty" X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP-PS 3.0.2 Status: RO X-Status: Thanks for the clips, Bill. The T-H traffic is beginning to get interesting, isn't it? Ray Raymond K. Adams, Twice retired Educator/Engineer E-mail: RayAdams@utk.edu WWW: http://sacam.oren.ortn.edu/~rkadams/homepage.html ------ From: William Beaty, Wed, Feb 28, 1996 ------ On Mon, 26 Feb 1996, John Schnurer wrote: From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 13:59:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id NAA11181 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 13:32:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (climate-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.251.148]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA11097 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 13:31:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.183.89.65] (macwharton.gsfc.nasa.gov) by climate.gsfc.nasa.gov with SMTP (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA086013092; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:31:32 -0500 X-Sender: wharton@climate Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:31:37 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov (Larry Wharton) Subject: vtx: Paterson cell chemistry Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A candidate chemical product of the Paterson cell could be: Li2SO4 + 2(H2O) -> 2(LiOH) + H2SO4 The energy balance would have to be worked out. There should not be any problem in finding sufficient power from the electrolysis power and the pump power to generate the negative entropy required. The electrolysis power alone is somewhat low but the pump may be inputing power to the process and must be included. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 15:26:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id PAA28162 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:12:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA28141 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:11:55 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff@aol.com Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA26472 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:11:32 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:11:32 -0500 Message-ID: <960228181130_336005063@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Ball lightning?! Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: If you get to look at ball lightning, one of the most important issues for me is the length of time it exists, coupled with an apparent brightness (100W bulb? 50W bulb?). The two would yield an estimate of total energy and thus a rough determination as to degree of anomalousness (is that a word?). Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Mar 2 03:55:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id PAA03783 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:40:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA03709 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:40:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA01087; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:38:03 -0500 Date: 28 Feb 96 18:37:16 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: Radiometer Message-ID: <960228233716_100060.173_JHB31-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Morriss said: >> you forgot to multiply 50W by (230/240)^2. I think your 50W bulb was dissipating 45.9W, << Yes - I forgot the ^2 bit, and the matt black is certainly necessary. Thanks Chris. Norman. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Mar 2 04:20:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id PAA03787 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:40:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA03712 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:40:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA08854; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:38:04 -0500 Date: 28 Feb 96 18:37:19 EST From: Norman Horwood <100060.173@CompuServe.COM> To: Vortex Subject: Re: vtx: Radiometer Message-ID: <960228233718_100060.173_JHB31-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace, >> 0.8522 GM.CAL/cm^2/Hr/MV << ^^^^^ Sorry - my error its "/min/MV" in the metric version not "/Hr/MV" as in the Imperial units. So your calc .8522 x 3600 x 4.19 / 100 should have been .8522 x 60 x 4.19 / 100 = 2.14 W/mV Which is very low as it uses the "with fan" reading of 3.2 mv. The lamp is rated at 50W at 240v but as Chris Morriss noted the power should be factored by 230/240 ^2 + 0.918 x 240 = 45.9W which should give a meter reading of 21.45mv. However assuming that only 80% of the heat from the lamp reached the sensor due to radiation from the reflector outwards, and that the sensor was only 90% efficient, we have only 0.8 x 0.9 x 45.9 = 33W to activate the sensor. I'm not even sure that the light energy would add to the sensed radiation, so we must deduct say another 30% from the 45.9 for the light portion, giving us 32.13W x .8 x .9 = 23.1W tickling the sensor. Anyway, if we can screen it so that we know more accurately the area of sensor being heated, and blacken the sensor properly we might just have a means of comparing heat generating devices with some accuracy. Norman. From 75110.3417@compuserve.com Wed Feb 28 15:54:39 1996 Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA05495 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA03680; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:52:06 -0500 Date: 28 Feb 96 18:43:37 EST From: Dean Miller <75110.3417@compuserve.com> To: William Beaty Subject: vtx: Ball lightning?! Message-ID: <960228234336_75110.3417_CHK54-1@CompuServe.COM> Status: RO X-Status: Hi Bill, >> He just got a call from a woman in Bellingham, WA who's family is scared to death by a continuing nightly occurrence: A glowing orange ball floats in through the bathroom window, drifts along a hallway and bounces off the walls. << I passed this along to the UFO and MUFON sections of the Encounters forum. Dean -- from Des Moines From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Mar 2 04:19:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id QAA14306 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:57:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA14090 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:56:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.64] ([204.57.193.64]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA01861 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:54:13 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:01:11 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Ball lightning?! Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill, If you get a chance you might want to bring some wire and tape. If they'll let you, you could try taping a wire loop around the hallway and leaving a small spark gap. You could videotape to see if the loop would discharge the ball as it goes throuh it, at least enough to make a spark at the spark gap. It is also possible the loop would center the ball in the hallway. Another thought is to place an insulator, like paper (but something fireproof would be best), in the spark gap to see if any holes get punched through it. Darn! I was just in Bellingham last month to attend my son's piano competition. Stayed at the Park Motel. It was the best place for the price anywhere near the university. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 19:43:36 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id TAA14249 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:31:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from nz1.netzone.com (root@netzone.com [206.43.36.70]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA14218 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:31:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-ip-99.netzone.com (phx-ip-99.netzone.com [206.43.37.99]) by nz1.netzone.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA01761 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 20:31:33 -0700 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 20:31:33 -0700 Message-Id: <199602290331.UAA01761@nz1.netzone.com> X-Sender: discpub@netzone.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Joe Champion Subject: vtx: Joint Nuclear Project Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 2/22/96 I asked Mark Hugo if he would undertake a project in building a thermal nuclear devise for energy. After listing to my story, he agreed with the caveat that even though we do not disclose the mechanisms. Although, we both agreed to publish the results. Since I had a WEB sight available, we agreed that he would build and operate the device in Minn., while I would report the data from Arizina. This eliminates experimental contamination from at least one of us. The experiment started 2/22/96 and has been running constantly. Since most are aware of thermal calculations, we decided to report only the findings allowing you to judge for yourself. You can find the data at: http://www.netzone.com/~discpub/power.html Until the cell dies, the data will be updated daily. Joe Champion email discpub@netzone.com http://www.netzone.com/~discpub From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 20:42:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id UAA23318 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 20:22:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from otis.netspace.net.au (otis.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.115]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA23253 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 20:21:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from tornado.netspace.net.au (netspace.net.au [203.10.110.110]) by otis.netspace.net.au (8.6.11/8.6.11) with ESMTP id PAA01460 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 15:23:27 +1100 Received: from dialup-a2-17.mel.netspace.net.au (dialup-a2-17.mel.netspace.net.au [203.17.100.17]) by tornado.netspace.net.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA20981 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 15:14:08 +1100 (EST) From: rvanspaa@netspace.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Radiometer Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 05:18:33 GMT Organization: Improving Message-Id: <31342031.37600281@mail.netspace.net.au> References: <960227144024_100060.173_JHB73-1@CompuServe.COM> In-Reply-To: <960227144024_100060.173_JHB73-1@CompuServe.COM> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/16.182 Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 27 Feb 96 09:40:24 EST, Norman Horwood wrote: >Robin says: > > >> Using the 6.4 mV reading without the fan turned on, I get 38.047 watt, so >my guess is you were using a 40 watt bulb. << > > >Which is interesting and close. So what is the fan doing? Is it needed only >for looking at very high temperatures to safeguard the sensor, or must it be >run to get the "true" power radiated? > >With the 3.2mV reading you only get about 20 watts. > >In fact the lamp is 50 Watts, and in fairly new condition, but the voltage >here is slightly lower than its rating of 240v, being 230 giving its pro-rata >rating as 47.9 W. It looks as though the fan cooler is either unnecessary at >these relatively low temperatures or the calibration has gone funny. > >Thank you Robin. Norman. > > Norman, if the lamp is acting as a constant current sink, (and many do have a fairly flat curve in the neighbourhood of the normal operating point), then the pro-rata power drop to 47.9 watt is OK. However, if the lamp is acting as a pure resistance, then the power consumed is v^2/R and in this case would be nearer 45.9 watt (for 230 volt). My guess is the true value will lie somewhere in between. Furthermore, please take into consideration that my calculation was based upon on area of 100 cm^2. If the actual illuminated area was different, then the power needs to be, adjusted accordingly. (small changes in the linear dimensions will lead to considerable differences in the area). I.e. you only need the linear dimensions to be off by 5% to account for a 10% difference in power reading. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Man is the creature that comes into this world knowing everything, Learns all his life, And leaves knowing nothing. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Mar 2 04:38:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id OAA25323 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 14:57:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from big.aa.net (root@big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA25257 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 14:56:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from s4c2p1.aa.net (d117.aa.net [204.157.220.117]) by big.aa.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA11237 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 14:56:52 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199602282256.OAA11237@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:56:21 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: vtx: Ball lightning?! Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:30 PM 2/28/96 -0800, you wrote: > > >A friend at the U of W called me last night. He's in CSICOP, and the UW >forwards to him its calls from the public involving paranormal stuff. > >He just got a call from a woman in Bellingham, WA who's family is scared >to death by a continuing nightly occurrence: > > A glowing orange ball floats in through the bathroom window, drifts > along a hallway and bounces off the walls. > >This has happened over the past several nights. At least one of the >events was preceded by a bright flash outside the house. No thunderstorm >activity locally. The family has managed to videotape it. > >Anyway, does anyone here have contact with someone who's interested >in ball lightning? I've heard of a Dr. Berry and Dr. Vonnegut, but >have no further contact info. So far no one at the UW here in Seattle >has expressed interest. This is a golden opportunity to do spectro- >photography, RF and e-field studies, etc. That is, if the phenomena >continues for much longer. > >Also, if this event continues into the weekend, I'm going to try to go up >and observe. I'll take a 35mm camera and diff. grating, an AM radio and >tape recorder for crude RF detection, a little GM counter, a compass, and >a simple electrometer. Any suggestions for other things I should >be bringing? Yes, I know that ball lightning has been known to explode >with a deafening sound. And I *am* going to avoid being the first person >to be electrocuted by poking a ball lightning with a bent coathanger! > > >********************************************************************** >William J. Beaty DESIGN ENGINEER >beatywj@grtpa01.grt.ch.etn.com INDUSTRIAL PHOTOCONTROLS >EATON/CUTLER-HAMMER Everett, WA 206-353-0900 > > > I've heard "tales" that ball lightning vaporizes any protoplasmic mass it happens to flow through...Heard a "tale" of a guys head disappearing rather abruptly ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm@aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 29 06:15:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id FAA19558 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 05:00:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA19552 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 05:00:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA26875; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 08:00:48 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01191; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 07:59:22 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 07:59:22 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602291259.AA01191@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: hyperfine vs sledgehammer Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Jed and Vortex: I asked Jed questions about the heaters (no response as yet) and developed the "Positional Variation" theory because of the following simple calculation which follows Jed's quote below. Because Jed/CETI has not answered about the explicit time-course of the heater in the workings of the system, and they have not addressed the positional variation findings, and because he/CETI still apparently stand by the 1300 watt claim, the following must be addessed. First let us look at Jed's most recent post for the numbers: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> vtx: hyperfine vs sledgehammer =jr"Scott writes: "With the electrolyte at room temperature, I got pretty good results. The measured heat flow from the cell was about 85-90% of the input electrical energy (minus a correction for the fuel value of the H2 and O2 gas being produced)." =jrDon't forget that the specific heat of electrolyte is a little less than 1. It =jrdoes not quite as much heat capacity as pure water. It should be around 0.95. =jrDennis computed that if it was fully saturated at room temperature, it would =jrbe around 0.85. Yours should be far from saturated. "Then I heated the electrolyte up to about 50C, expecting maybe to see some increase in apparent output due to convection effects in my vertically oriented cell. At 50C, my apparent thermal output went slightly NEGATIVE! In a flash, I realized the reason: warm electrolyte enters the bottom of the cell and cools significantly as it travels slowly up through the bed of beads...leaving the cell, in this case, at a slightly lower temperature than it entered!" =jrYup. I've seen that before with other flow calorimeters. I even observed that =jrat Power-Gen with the dummy cell. The Delta T on the differential thermocouple =jrfluctuated between 0.0 and -0.2, indicating as much as 14 watts lost from the =jrcell, at 1 l/min. That was with a poorly insulated 40 ml volume (big!) cell. =jr Uninsulated, really. I do not recommend uninsulated cells. Let us take 40 ml for the size of the cell ("big!"), and 1 Liter per minute for the flow rate and 1300 watts total power dissipated. 1300 watts is a power (energy rate) which provides an energy of 5439 calories per second, and that would drive the 40 cc to 100 deg C in one second. With a flow rate of 1 Liter per minute, that adds only 16.7 cc per second if totally mixed. Just adding that to the 40 cc would not prevent the total volume to still increase to a temperature of ~95.9 C in one second (assuming Cv = 1) even if at came in at 1 degree C. And this would occur every second. So the questions remain despite their being not responded to. 1) What was the time course of the heaters? 2) Was the same "derived by calculation" 1300 watts seen in a static system? Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 29 05:18:33 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id FAA19622 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 05:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA19606 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 05:01:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-7-195.austin.eden.com (net-7-195.austin.eden.com [206.81.226.195]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.4.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id HAA02738 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 07:01:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 07:01:39 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602291301.HAA02738@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: hyperfine vs sledgehammer X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Schaffer said: >We found making corrections to calorimetric data in 50 deg C runs >introduced both uncertainty and tedium. Presently we cover the calorimeter >(which is enclosed in its own styrofoam insulation) by a styrofoam "ice >chest" box and heat the air inside to the same temperature as the entering >electrolyte. We use a 20 W resistor inside the box with a muffin fan >blowing air past it and circulating the air around the box. With just a >bit of patience we can hold the air to within about 0.1 deg C of the >electrolyte. There are still transient differences when conditions are >changed, but our "high" temperature calorimetry is now as easy and reliable >as at room temperature. Sounds real good, Mike. Before you had the extra enclosure, did you generally see LOWER results with hot electrolyte like I have? From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 29 05:24:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id FAA20570 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 05:12:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA20564 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 05:12:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA27757; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 08:12:19 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08464; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 08:10:25 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 08:10:25 -0500 From: mica@world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199602291310.AA08464@world.std.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: hyperfine vs sledgehammer Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Jed and Vortex: Please excuse the numerical error in the previous post. It should have read, when the correct factor was divided (and not multiplied). Let us take 40 ml for the size of the cell ("big!"), and 1 Liter per minute for the flow rate and 1300 watts total power dissipated. 1300 watts is a power (energy rate) which provides an energy of 310 calories per second, and that would drive the 40 cc to 7 deg C in one second. With a flow rate of 1 Liter per minute, that adds only 16.7 cc per second if totally mixed. Just adding that to the 40 cc would not prevent the total volume to still increase to a temperature of ~5 C in one second (assuming Cv = 1) even if at came in at 1 degree C. And this would occur every second. So the questions remain despite their being not responded to. 1) What was the time course of the heaters? 2) Was the same "derived by calculation" 1300 watts seen in a static system? Thank you for your patience and for listening. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica@world.std.com) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 29 05:48:11 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id FAA22743 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 05:35:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA22737 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 05:35:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA06495; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:35:08 +0100 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:35:08 +0100 (MET) From: Dieter Britz To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Paterson cell chemistry In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Larry Wharton wrote: > A candidate chemical product of the Paterson cell could be: > > Li2SO4 + 2(H2O) -> 2(LiOH) + H2SO4 > > The energy balance would have to be worked out. There should not be any No, it wouldn't. Before posting chemical reaction scenarios, you ought to wave them past a chemist. You have the arrow pointing the wrong way; i.e. the reaction system has its equilibrium on the left hand side. In fact, even that is a simplification but I don't have time or inclination to go into detail. Please forget these simplistic chemical schemes, they are good for nothing. -- Dieter Britz alias britz@kemi.aau.dk From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 29 07:27:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id GAA02691 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 06:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA02658 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 06:54:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id JAA08130; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:52:46 -0500 Date: 29 Feb 96 09:51:21 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Subject: vtx: Questions from Mitchell Swartz Message-ID: <960229145120_72240.1256_EHB32-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:mica@world.std.com Mitchell writes: "I asked Jed questions about the heaters (no response as yet)" I did respond. These messages get out of sequence. Perhaps Mitch missed my response, or perhaps I never saw the questions. The questions I saw were: "Do they shut off at, or before, "high power", or just after startup? How long are they on. . . . If the heaters were on, why do/did you not count them? Were they 50 watts? or more? Why were there two heaters(?) in the pictures?" My response was: "I did not mean the aux heaters were on, I meant the CF reaction was heating up the electrolyte and the reservoir temperature was trending up. I do not have any detailed info on this, I just noted the trend. I did not see the heaters turned on. There were two: 100 watts and 50 watts, as noted here previously, but I don't think they used 'em. Question 2 was: "If the heaters were on, why do/did you not count them?" My answer was: "Of course if they had been on I would have said that months ago!" Let me repeat: the aux heaters were OFF at all times that I observed the cell. Mitch writes: "Because Jed/CETI has not answered about the explicit time-course of the heater in the workings of the system, and they have not addressed the positional variation findings, and because he/CETI still apparently stand by the 1300 watt claim, the following must be addressed." What on earth is this? What the "the explicit time-course of the heater" mean, in plain English? Which heater? I have no data on the aux heaters because, as I said, they were not used. I certainly have addressed the positional variation findings. I addressed them repeatedly, at length, right here in this forum. I suggested that Mitch do an actual real-world experiment with water, tubes, thermometers and so on, rather than a mathematical simulation. I think this would be a good idea. I do not trust any claim that is not backed by a real world experiment, especially when the experiment can be easily & conveniently performed. It is my firm policy to ignore all such claims. Other people are welcome to discuss positional theories until the cows come home, but as long as these theories are not backed by real-world experimental data from instruments, I will ignore them. Okay? I will *not* address this issue again. "Let us take 40 ml for the size of the cell ("big!"), and 1 Liter per minute for the flow rate and 1300 watts total power dissipated. 1300 watts is a power (energy rate) which provides an energy of 310 calories per second, and that would drive the 40 cc to 7 deg C in one second. With a flow rate of 1 Liter per minute, that adds only 16.7 cc per second if totally mixed." This is very confusing. The 40 cc refers to the volume of beads in the cell, not the water. I have no idea how much water you can cram into the cell, in the nooks and crannies between beads. In any case, every second 16 ml of water passes through the cell, and it heats up 17 deg C. That's how I know there are 1300 watts. It is totally mixed. It has to be. It is mixed by the in-line mixer, and I totally mixed it myself in the 250 cup by swishing around the thermistor probe. "Just adding that to the 40 cc would not prevent the total volume to still increase to a temperature of ~5 C in one second (assuming Cv = 1) even if at came in at 1 degree C." What prevents it from getting hotter is the new water coming from behind. :-} "So the questions remain despite their being not responded to. 1) What was the time course of the heaters?" I do not understand this question. "2) Was the same "derived by calculation" 1300 watts seen in a static system?" I don't know. The only static cells I have heard about were at lower power. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Mar 2 04:36:01 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id GAA03740 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 06:57:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA03684 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 06:57:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id JAA12425; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:55:42 -0500 Date: 29 Feb 96 09:51:37 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: Potential for explosion of Patterson Cel Message-ID: <960229145136_72240.1256_EHB32-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Barry asks: "Any comment on the potential for explosion in a closed Patterson cell?" Yes, I have comments. Avoid it. Don't allow ANY potential for explosion. Make sure you have a large, unblockable gas splitter (a hole to allow effluent gas out) and proper ventilation. Always wear safety glasses. "It seems to me that its not a significant danger for shorter runs, since at the proscribed current levels there is only around at most 0.1 W going into creation of H2 + O2 gas. Thus even explosive recombination of the entire evolute from 24 hour run is only around 10,000 J of energy, which is a rather small bang." That depends on how quickly the 10,000 joule explosion evolves, doesn't it? If it takes 5 minutes that's 16 watts which is nothing to worry about, but I don't see how it could do that. If the gas ignites it will explode, and those 10,000 joules will come out in a fraction of a second, say 0.1 seconds, at a power level of a hundred thousand watts. Glass shards will fly everywhere and poke out your eyes if you are not wearing safety glasses. In point of fact, I do not think you would ever get 24 hours of gas if you are using glass and plastic hardware. After a few hours, I hope that pressure would build up and a connection somewhere would pop, or a plastic vessel would crack. Heavy duty stainless steel equipment is another matter. The accident at SRI on January 2, 1992 was caused by multiple failures of safety equipment. This led to an undetected build-up of gas in a steel cell, to an estimated 300 atm. The total energy in the gas was ~39,700 joules. When the cell exploded, the top portion of it struck a person's head with 300 to 700 joules of kinetic energy. This was enough to kill the poor man, instantly. See Proc. ICCF3, pp 139 - 151 (esp. Table 1, p. 144). For this reason, I do not recommend heavy duty stainless steel equipment, unless you are looking for helium or other nuclear products. I like equipment I can see through. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Mar 2 04:14:26 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id KAA10860 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:14:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA10823 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:14:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQafau20287; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:13:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA16693; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:13:12 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 872411100096060FEPRI; 29 Feb 1996 10:11:10 PST Message-Id: Date: 29 Feb 1996 10:11:10 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: Handel To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/29/96 10:11:23 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/28/96 21:15 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: Handel Oh, this fellow Handel....UTTER NONSENSE! If a Peltier effect could be found with that effeciency, it would be the BEST heat pump in the world. This guy showed up about 4 years ago, and was beaten down by anyone with an engineering reference manual at that time....Sometimes the "conventional explaination theorists" are as bad as the "unconventional explaination theorist". Can I again make my statement---which agrees with Jed, I could give a RIP about theory. Show me data and experiments. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Mar 2 04:34:53 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id KAA13149 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:26:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA13111 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQafav24745; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:26:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA12188; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:26:09 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 773225100096060FEPRI; 29 Feb 1996 10:25:10 PST Message-Id: Date: 29 Feb 1996 10:25:10 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: vtx: Joint Nuclear Project To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/29/96 10:25:30 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/28/96 19:43 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: vtx: Joint Nuclear Project I am running an electrolysis with an electrolyte and a cathode material suggest ed by Joe. I started last Friday night. I have NOT had an opportunity to run a Craven's style cross check on my flow rate with a graduated cylinder and a stop watch. I am basing my 16.3ml/Min flow rate on the previous calibration work with my positive displacement pump, whose stroke rate is computer controlled for this experiment. - My deltaT is measured with a differential thermo-couple, and I am using .055mV/ degree C as my conversion for this system based on the tables for the type TC, and measurements made with one end in ice water and the other in boiling water. - I back up the TC measurement with two Radio Shack thermister devices. The spread between the measurements made with the TC's and the thermisters is such that the TC measures about 10% higher deltaT than the thermisters right now. This is partially attributable to the fact that the "hot" side thermister is floating INSIDE the volume of the "reacting" cell, and may not be measuring the optimal temp. rise... - Previous runs in Dec. and Jan., preparing for a Patterson run, were made using joule heating and then a copper mesh anode with 1 molar LiSO4. In general the calorimeter effeciency was found to be 66 to 68%. - The current test is a FIRST CUT, and not to be considered as a definite result. It is curious, however, that my apparatus, which has not had a major geometry change nor operating parameter change since Dec/Jan, suddenly appears to be able to be 100% effecient at energy recovery. - Plans are, depending upon the level of confidence in the results, to make the system available to everyone.... Let's put it this way, the ONLY exotic mater- ial needed for this test is some length of Pt wire for an anode. - MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Mar 2 03:54:40 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id LAA25529 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA25504 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:34:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-6-187.austin.eden.com (net-6-187.austin.eden.com [206.81.226.187]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.4.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id NAA01320 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:34:12 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:34:12 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602291934.NAA01320@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: Champion-Hugo X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Joe, Mark: Yr WEB report on the energy experiment would benefit enormously from some detailed description of your apparatus and procedure. You can do this without revealing any of your secrets. Scott Little EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Suite 300 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 29 12:30:08 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id MAA03201 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 12:17:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA03180 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 12:17:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQafbd24660; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 15:17:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA16770; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 12:17:10 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 035715120096060FEPRI; 29 Feb 1996 12:15:12 PST Message-Id: Date: 29 Feb 1996 12:15:12 PST From: "Mark Hugo, Northern" Subject: vtx: A USEFULL DEMO SOFTWARE PRODUCT... To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/29/96 12:15:56 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: A USEFULL DEMO SOFTWARE PRODUCT... - Dear Vortexians--- - I use a demo product called DVISSIM to process my data. The full scale version of this program is $1800. It can run linear/non-linear simulations, process data directly from sensors (if you buy the operating version) and control pro- cesses. The Demo version, which cannot store models constructed on it, can import and export ASCII data files. Very helpful, VERY easy to use. Graphing capabilities are virtually impossible to describe, they are so easy yet powerfu l. You can request DVISSIM at phone 1-508-392-0100, Ext. 1 or 3. Or write (for our international friends) 487 Groton Road, Westford, MA 01886. - Please make the effort to get the demo. Then with the help of the Internet we can share and analyse data on a common basis. - M. Hugo From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Mar 2 04:30:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id MAA06222 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 12:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA06199 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 12:35:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 12:35:55 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer@gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199602292035.MAA06199@mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 12:35:27 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: hyperfine vs sledgehammer Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Little said: > > >Sounds real good, Mike. Before you had the extra enclosure, did you >generally see LOWER results with hot electrolyte like I have? We always see Tout lower than expected right after raising inlet temperature. We attribute this to the need to heat up the components of the cell. At temperatures higher than ambient, there is some heat leak out of the calorimeter. Depending on geometry of the given setep, the effects can vary. We do a long run without electrolysis to let the temperatures stabilize; this bives us a baseline Tout-Tin. We have to do this anyway, to check the thermocouples, since all thermocouples differ a bit from absolute calibration. After all this, we take the baseline Tout-Tin as the delta-T zero point. When operating at 50 C and running low currents, especially 50-100 mA, these corrections can be larger than the electrolysis delta-T. We now prefer to avoid such large relative corrections by heating the cell ambient as closely as possible to the electrolyte Tin. Fianlly, a (probably obvious) clarification to my post yesterday: >>We use a 20 W resistor inside the box with a muffin fan >>blowing air past it and circulating the air around the box. AS YOU CAN GUESS, WE USED A VARIABLE VOLTAGE SUPPLY WITH THIS RESISTER, ADJUSTING THE POWER TO GET THE DESIRED BOX AIR TEMPERATURE. Michael J. Schaffer michael.schaffer@gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Mar 2 03:58:43 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id LAA28601 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:51:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from agora.stm.it (agora.stm.it [194.20.43.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA28559 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:51:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [19.0.2.1] (agora.stm.it [194.20.43.1]) by agora.stm.it (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) with SMTP id UAA03791 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 20:51:29 GMT Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 20:51:29 GMT Message-Id: <199602292051.UAA03791@agora.stm.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: j.hasslberger@agora.stm.it (Josef Hasslberger) Subject: Re: vtx: Ball lightning?! Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Maybe one of the things to look for - don't laugh - would be if the ball lightning, that repeatedly seems to appear at the same spot, exhibits any signs of intelligent behaviour. This would indicate it to be in the category of phenomena that are observed after the sudden death of a person who then will come back to 'haunt' a certain place. You might think it an absurd thought, but it seems a hypothesis to keep in mind. Regards - Josef Josef Hasslberger Rampa Brancaleone 25, 00165 Rome, Italy j.hasslberger@agora.stm.it From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 29 16:26:28 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id PAA05409 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 15:07:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA05373 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 15:07:04 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA23220 for vortex-l@eskimo.com; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 18:06:19 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 18:06:19 -0500 Message-ID: <960229180618_337077963@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: hugo Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I looked at Hugo's results..It looks to me like power in = power out Frank Z From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Mar 2 04:27:55 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id UAA29566 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 20:20:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA29468 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 20:19:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.68] ([204.57.193.74]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA09139 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 19:17:44 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 19:24:16 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: vtx: Ion Brake Hypothesis for PPC Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Since we have been delving into many varied ideas for heat generation in the PPC, how about yet another: an ion brake effect. The hypothesized effect can not account for heat in excess of electrolysis plus pump energy, but is a way heat can be generated in the PPC by the pump. The idea is that following the cathode, positive ions are attracted to the cathode so create a differential velocity with respoect to neutral H2O and other atoms in the electrolyte, thus create a drag or braking effect. A similar braking effect must occur just after to anode, but for cations. The PPC is an electric fluid brake which converts a pressure differential into heat. There should also be accelerating effects as well, especially in the neutral area prior to the cathode and following the anode. The accellerating ions reduce the breaking effect but increase the differential velocities of the fluid particles, and therefore the heat generated. To check the hypothesis simply measure pressure differential accross the cell while cycling the electrolysis current. A small current should be capable of generating a large delta p, thus increasing the current draw on the pump motor, a fact which should also be checked. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 29 22:36:15 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id WAA18906 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 22:23:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from nz1.netzone.com (root@netzone.com [206.43.36.70]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA18885 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 22:23:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-ip-83.netzone.com (phx-ip-83.netzone.com [206.43.37.83]) by nz1.netzone.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA14369 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 23:22:59 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 23:22:59 -0700 Message-Id: <199603010622.XAA14369@nz1.netzone.com> X-Sender: discpub@netzone.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Joe Champion Subject: vtx: More from Hugo's Reactor Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Six additional data sets have been added to Hugo's contraption. For reference, the URL is: http:www.netzone.com/~discpub/power.html Just to set the record straight -- Mark is reporting power in as E*I and power out as delta-T. Yes, a possibility exist that he has errors in his system. Or, there is no system loss. However, he is a careful researcher and the numbers are the numbers. His system efficiency calibrates at ~67%. We (collectively) elected not to graph the "suspected" power inclusive of system thermal loss, H2O, etc....... When you look at the numbers, let me just point out one thing -- the higher the power in -- the closer to equilibrium (Pin vs Pout) things appear. It's your call, not ours. Joe Champion email discpub@netzone.com http://www.netzone.com/~discpub From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Mar 2 04:04:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id QAA12747 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:47:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA12516 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:45:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.64] ([204.57.193.64]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA01761 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:42:26 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:49:25 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: Ball lightning?! Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill, If you get a chance you might want to bring some wire and tape. If they'll let you, you could try taping a wire loop around the hallway and leaving a small spark gap. You could videotape to see if the loop would discharge the ball as it goes throuh it, at least enough to make a spark at the spark gap. It is also possible the loop would center the ball in the hallway. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Sat Mar 2 03:54:41 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id RAA06764 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:54:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from anc.ak.net (root@anc.ak.net [204.17.241.19]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA06673 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:53:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.57.193.68] ([204.57.193.68]) by anc.ak.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA08400 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:52:11 -0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:58:46 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vtx: hugo Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I looked at Hugo's results..It looks to me like power in = power out > > >Frank Z Yes, nothing impressive. The runs are not long enough to be convincing of over unity total energy. Regards, PO Box 325 Palmer, AK 99645 Horace Heffner 907-746-0820 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 20:31:31 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id UAA22123 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 20:15:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA24723 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:01:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:01:19 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer@gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199602290201.SAA24723@mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:59:52 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: hyperfine vs sledgehammer Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: We found making corrections to calorimetric data in 50 deg C runs introduced both uncertainty and tedium. Presently we cover the calorimeter (which is enclosed in its own styrofoam insulation) by a styrofoam "ice chest" box and heat the air inside to the same temperature as the entering electrolyte. We use a 20 W resistor inside the box with a muffin fan blowing air past it and circulating the air around the box. With just a bit of patience we can hold the air to within about 0.1 deg C of the electrolyte. There are still transient differences when conditions are changed, but our "high" temperature calorimetry is now as easy and reliable as at room temperature. Michael J. Schaffer michael.schaffer@gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 17:43:03 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id RAA18094 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:24:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA18075 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-7-215.austin.eden.com (net-7-215.austin.eden.com [206.81.226.215]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.4.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id TAA10863 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:12:15 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:12:15 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602290112.TAA10863@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: vtx: hyperfine vs sledgehammer X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: It's amazing how the mind can search tirelessly for subtle effects which might explain away an unusual observation while ignoring more obvious effects that would tend to support the observation. Today I started calibrating my flow CF cell using pure Ni beads which I'm assuming are "blank". With the electrolyte at room temperature, I got pretty good results. The measured heat flow from the cell was about 85-90% of the input electrical energy (minus a correction for the fuel value of the H2 and O2 gas being produced). The input power level was about 0.4 watts. Then I heated the electrolyte up to about 50C, expecting maybe to see some increase in apparent output due to convection effects in my vertically oriented cell. At 50C, my apparent thermal output went slightly NEGATIVE! In a flash, I realized the reason: warm electrolyte enters the bottom of the cell and cools significantly as it travels slowly up through the bed of beads...leaving the cell, in this case, at a slightly lower temperature than it entered! Presently, my cell is just sitting out in a still air space. Tomorrow I'll try wrapping it with insulation. This will improve things certainly but I'm betting that the final result will be that the heat measuring system reads LOWER when the electrolyte is hot, not HIGHER... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 19:42:16 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id TAA14037 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA14020; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.4) id TAA24293; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:30:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:30:34 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com cc: tap-l , vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com, PHYS-L%UWF.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: vtx: re: ball lightning Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Wednesday, February 28, 1996 12:40PM > Bill, > As one who is keenly interested in lightning phenomena, I urge you to keep > phys-l and/or tap-l aware of any positive results from this case. Good > luck. > PS: Yes, I think I saw ball lightning once as a kid...when traveling in a > car across the Wyoming plateau. Marlyn mjakub@physics.otago.ac.nz > Latest word: it stopped. Bob K. tells me that the family left their camera on for hours tuesday night, but no sign of anything. More info: the size of the balls varied from "bumblebee" size downwards, some of them "tiny," and some of them left "trails" as they moved (which of course could probably be afterimage effects, but then BL has been observed before to leave a trail as it moved.) But "tiny" doesn't sound like BL. Guess it must be ghosts. ;) They are however mailing a videotape to Bob K., so I'll soon get a look at whatever they're talking about. ********************************************************************** William J. Beaty DESIGN ENGINEER beatywj@grtpa01.grt.ch.etn.com INDUSTRIAL PHOTOCONTROLS EATON/CUTLER-HAMMER Everett, WA 206-353-0900 From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Thu Feb 29 20:43:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id UAA00990 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 20:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA00969 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 20:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod1.epri.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQafcj08925; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 23:28:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from epri.epri.com by prod1.epri.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52348; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 20:28:17 -0800 Received: by EPRINET.EPRI.COM (Soft*Switch Central V4L400P1) id 062127200096060FEPRI; 29 Feb 1996 20:27:20 PST Message-Id: Date: 29 Feb 1996 20:27:20 PST From: "MHUGO@EPRI" Subject: Re: vtx: hugo To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Comment: EPRI UA4B029 02/29/96 20:27:20 SMTP Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Reply to note of 02/29/96 17:59 From: Mark Hugo, Northern States Power Sr. Eng. Subject: Re: vtx: hugo No April 1st. Power in = power out with a system which calibrated previously to only 68% effecient in recovery. MDH From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 22:22:25 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id VAA00401 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:03:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA00360 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:03:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.4) id VAA01946; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:03:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:02:59 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: heat of solution Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: heat of solution To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:33:57 -0600 (CST) > I was assuming that John White had his > numbers right when he worked out his salt theory. No one pointed any > problems along those lines at the time. Actually, we did point out to Mr. White that Li2SO4 would not do what he wanted (its soluability was too constant over the narrow range of temperature changes.) I believe he maintained some new heretofore unknown salt was therefore responsibile. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 21:18:05 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id VAA00550 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:04:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA00517 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:03:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.4) id VAA02037; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:03:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:03:48 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Radiometer Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:37:17 -0500 From: "Robert I. Eachus" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Radiometer Norman Horwood <100060.173@compuserve.com> said: > In fact the lamp is 50 Watts, and in fairly new condition, but the > voltage here is slightly lower than its rating of 240v, being 230 > giving its pro-rata rating as 47.9 W. It looks as though the fan > cooler is either unnecessary at these relatively low temperatures > or the calibration has gone funny. Uh, if the resistance of the filament were a constant, the power would vary as the square of the voltage. Of course, the resistance isn't constant, and I'm used to judging it by color temperature, but I can't look at this bulb. ;-) In any case the relationship will not be linear, and I'd expect the effect of a 10 volt drop to be closer to a 93 or 94% number. Now you need to correct for the conductive losses through the fixture--which should be minimal, and the convective losses carried away in the air. With a fan going, I wouldn't be surprised to see 10 to 15% convective. (Depends on the size of the bulb, and the size of the fan. But even with a hurricane blowing, you won't get rid of heat not absorbed by the bulb. That figure depends on color temperature of the source--again--but is unlikely to be above 25-30%, some of which is reradiated as IR. (A quartz bulb will have a much lower absorption in the IR, but I doubt you used a quartz halide lamp.) The purists I know in this business also correct for the light absorbed by the intervening atmosphere, but that correction should be pretty negligible at kithen table distances. All in all, 38 watts radiated from a fifty watt bulb--I'd agree that the bulb was pretty new. Remember that most of that radiation is in the IR... Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 21:15:21 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id VAA01001 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:06:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA00980 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:06:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.4) id VAA02299; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:06:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:06:18 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Handel Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 13:15:50 -0800 From: barry@starfire.ucsd.edu (Barry Merriman) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Handel >I found this on the net at http://newton.umsl.edu/research.html >"I also solved the excess heat puzzle of cold fusion. "????? Handel has a theory for heat generation in a CF cell in which there are two different metals present. It is based on a Peltier-like effect, in which a voltage difference between different metals corresponds to an associated temperature difference. At low power levels, it could lead to largish (%) observed excess heat. His theory is is based on standard physics, but would not in itself explain all CF results, though it could explain some. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 21:30:12 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id VAA02695 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:17:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA02670 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:17:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.4) id VAA03469; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:17:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:17:22 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: vtx: Paterson call entropy analysis Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --- FORWARDED --- From: jlogajan@skypoint.com (John Logajan) Subject: Re: vtx: Paterson call entropy analysis To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 09:26:55 -0600 (CST) Lawrence E. Wharton writes: > Continuing on with the entropy analysis, lets suppose that we have hot > water mixed with ice (in the Paterson cell lithium sulfate salt crystals > would take the place of the ice) such that upon melting of the ice the > water would be at room temperature. As I mentioned on SPF, when you dissolve lithium sulfate salt crystals they generate heat. By my adding Li2SO4.H2O crystals to pure water to create a 1.0 molar solution, I saw a 4C temperature rise (I made a 200ml batch but the temperature rise should be the same in any size batch.) Clearly your hypothesis cannot use Li2SO4 because its behavior is the exact opposite of what you need. You must be proposing a new salt, which must be made up of the available elements (Li, S, O, H) but which is not Li2SO4. Since there are several experimenters here now with Li2SO4, I invite them to measure the before and after temperatures next time they make up a batch. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com -- 612-633-0345 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 21:43:27 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id VAA04695 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:30:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (billb@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA04660; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:30:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.4) id VAA04923; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:30:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:30:23 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-list@mail.eskimo.com, tap-l , vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com, PHYS-L%UWF.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: vtx: Ball lightning hoax! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, William Beaty wrote: > > Latest word: it stopped. Bob K. tells me that the family left their > camera on for hours tuesday night, but no sign of anything. More info: > the size of the balls varied from "bumblebee" size downwards, some of > them "tiny," and some of them left "trails" as they moved (which of > course could probably be afterimage effects, but then BL has been observed > before to leave a trail as it moved.) But "tiny" doesn't sound like > BL. Guess it must be ghosts. ;) Even latest word: new evidence suggests that the original observers' color report was mistaken, and it was not orange, but cherry red. Bright red dot! Arrrg! .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb@eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 20:13:52 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id UAA19513 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 20:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from natashya.eden.com (root@natashya.eden.com [199.171.21.14]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA19447 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 20:00:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from net-7-219.austin.eden.com (net-7-219.austin.eden.com [206.81.226.219]) by natashya.eden.com (8.7.4.1/8.7.1.1) with SMTP id VAA23641 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:59:44 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:59:44 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602290359.VAA23641@natashya.eden.com> X-Sender: little@mail.eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: vtx: hyperfine vs sledgehammer X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed asks: >How slowly does the electrolyte travel? What is the flow rate? It's 23ml/min at the moment. In the 1/8" ID tubing that makes up my circuit, that's 5 cm/sec...but in the .7" dia bead bed, it's only .15cm/sec. From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 19:37:35 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id TAA12728 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:22:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA12700 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:22:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id WAA27620; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 22:21:30 -0500 Date: 28 Feb 96 22:15:54 EST From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: vtx: hyperfine vs sledgehammer Message-ID: <960229031553_72240.1256_EHB69-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Scott writes: "With the electrolyte at room temperature, I got pretty good results. The measured heat flow from the cell was about 85-90% of the input electrical energy (minus a correction for the fuel value of the H2 and O2 gas being produced)." Don't forget that the specific heat of electrolyte is a little less than 1. It does not quite as much heat capacity as pure water. It should be around 0.95. Dennis computed that if it was fully saturated at room temperature, it would be around 0.85. Yours should be far from saturated. "Then I heated the electrolyte up to about 50C, expecting maybe to see some increase in apparent output due to convection effects in my vertically oriented cell. At 50C, my apparent thermal output went slightly NEGATIVE! In a flash, I realized the reason: warm electrolyte enters the bottom of the cell and cools significantly as it travels slowly up through the bed of beads...leaving the cell, in this case, at a slightly lower temperature than it entered!" Yup. I've seen that before with other flow calorimeters. I even observed that at Power-Gen with the dummy cell. The Delta T on the differential thermocouple fluctuated between 0.0 and -0.2, indicating as much as 14 watts lost from the cell, at 1 l/min. That was with a poorly insulated 40 ml volume (big!) cell. Uninsulated, really. I do not recommend uninsulated cells. How slowly does the electrolyte travel? What is the flow rate? Don't make it too slow. - Jed From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 19:33:06 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id TAA12065 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:18:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA12044 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:18:38 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA05353; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 22:17:18 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 22:17:18 -0500 Message-ID: <960228221718_156128731@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, ross@pacificnet.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Lecture/tape Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ross Marshall Plutonium FRilms Co 8055 Lankershim Blve Unit 2 North Hollywood CA 91605 ross@pacificnet.net CC vortex Ross, As per our phone conversation you have done a very nice job packaging my college lecture. Your insertion of still and video clips really enhanced the presentation. It turned out quite well especially since it was only designed to be a college lecture not a film production. It's good the way it is. As promised I will send you the originial clips of the ball lightning experiments. That should improve the show even more. I hope we sell many. Thank's for adding the plug for my disk on the tape. I hope to sell many. I liked the Townsends device you showed on the second part of the tape. It seemed to really fly. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 23:49:09 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id XAA22638 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 23:38:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from julia.math.ucla.edu (root@julia.math.ucla.edu [128.97.4.254]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA22576 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 23:37:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from arnold.math.ucla.edu.ucsd.edu (arnold.math.ucla.edu) by julia.math.ucla.edu (Sendmail 4.1/1.13) id AA24891; Wed, 28 Feb 96 23:35:53 PST Received: by arnold.math.ucla.edu.ucsd.edu (NX5.67d/NeXT-2.0) id AA08440; Wed, 28 Feb 96 23:28:09 -0800 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 23:28:09 -0800 From: barry@math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) Message-Id: <9602290728.AA08440@ arnold.math.ucla.edu.ucsd.edu > Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.95) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.95) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Size of Miley's beads Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I took the dimensions of the patterson and Miley cells off my VCR recording of the nightline show the other night (by measuring them on screen, and using the size of the fingers depicted near the cell as a scale). One odd thing I noticed: the Patterson beads cam out as 0.8 mm diam by my process---amazingly close to their size reported elsewhere. However, Miley's beads come out as being about 1.8 mm diam, and indeed they do look like bigger beads than Pattersons just by casual observation. Has Miley always been using such large beads? Perhaps someone who has seen his SOFE Demo could comment.... From vortex-l-owner@eskimo.com Wed Feb 28 23:53:49 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id XAA23256 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 23:44:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from julia.math.ucla.edu (root@julia.math.ucla.edu [128.97.4.254]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA23153 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 23:43:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from arnold.math.ucla.edu.ucsd.edu (arnold.math.ucla.edu) by julia.math.ucla.edu (Sendmail 4.1/1.13) id AA24951; Wed, 28 Feb 96 23:42:52 PST Received: by arnold.math.ucla.edu.ucsd.edu (NX5.67d/NeXT-2.0) id AA08447; Wed, 28 Feb 96 23:35:08 -0800 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 23:35:08 -0800 From: barry@math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) Message-Id: <9602290735.AA08447@ arnold.math.ucla.edu.ucsd.edu > Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.95) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.95) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: vtx: Potential for explosion of Patterson Cells Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Any comment on the potential for explosion in a closed Patterson cell? It seems to me that its not a significant danger for shorter runs, since at the proscribed current levels there is only around at most 0.1 W going into creation of H2 + O2 gas. Thus even explosive recombination of the entire evolute from 24 hour run is only around 10,000 J of energy, which is a rather small bang. For longer runs, I suppose one should make an effort to bleed off the evolved gases....