...

Poor hex-rays guys...
works so hard for you guys and yet, you spit in their face!
you want it soo bad, buy it, such software deserves the support in the company just because it's a tool that helps you.
but, well, I guess.. you can't please all

What a ridiculous posturing!

Since when did RCE start having feelings for Software Developers?

Maybe you should ALSO ask Crackz to stop posting about Flexlm. After all, would you not say he also spits in the face of those guys by giving all their secrets. And Flexlm also deserves support. So does Arma. And SentinemLM. And all dongles. Heck, I bet all people on this board BOUGHT their legal copy of Winrar... (who the hell are we kidding). Then maybe Woodmann should shut down... can you IMAGINE how many programs were cracked because the knowledge was around?

What a case of double standards. Stop kidding yourself B.

I have no qualms cracking, using and abusing all the software I can find. Why all the sudden LOVE for developers?

What next? ASKING PERMISSION OF SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS TO CRACK THEIR SOFTWARE BECAUSE IT HURTS THEIR FEELINGS? Golly! RCE *SURE* has come a long way... meh!

Whatever the hell happened to the intrepid crackers? --- Is it just me or am I seeing more and more reversers making their residence in PUSSYLAND?

Have Phun

as the days has passed ,, nothing has changed...
more ppl use your product.. greater is a chance someone will crack it or rlz.. same goes for games, apps. usefull softwares.. everything.. ps3..

. the demand is high.. and app is usefull.. no matter what they do.. it will alwasy be rlz (cracked) .. since there is interest for it.. and they better app gets more interest it will have

the only problem i see .. it that programers have to make a lot of money before its get cracked.. or after that also.. how much money they lose.. no one can really estimate that .. everyone can only predict it....


i work.. and i must honeslty say.. that app is too expensive for me especially since i reverse only for hobby . if i would have firm which would make money from computers i would surely buy it.. that is why i am actually happy that from time to time.. that my assernal of tools which i use a lot also get update.... even if that for free...

and of course if the price of licence would be fairly lower....i would surely buy it.. not just that app but many more.. until that time..

OH, COME ON!
still the same silly arguments
1-> ask to datarescue/hexrays the sales chart before and after a crack release: impact IS pretty visible, especialy for a niche software as IDA is. IDA sells few copies, photoshop sells many many. Crack effect is reduced with high numbers, not with lower ones.
2-> You have older IDA for free, and it is STILL perfect even for very advanced jobs. Ilfak and Pierre did have a student pricing, you know? Then rich specialists asked asked for the very low student price ...since they were i.e. piano students -not kidding.
3-> It has been proven by a number of studies (some private, some not) that pricing does not 'impact' the will of using crack. Even if IDA would cost 10$, you'd take the cracked one - why? Because $0 is much better than $10 - period. Let's leave excuses out..



I think Ben is referring to the fact we are talking of IDA Pro, in the specific case. If Ilfak does not gain enough, IDA wont grow up enough. And if you wonder things like 'companies will buy it original' my answer is... I saw with MY eyes a big company using some illegal licenses of IDA (incl. Hexrays decompiler ofc).
It is a matter of respect for a software WE need to do RCE.

An example of what could happen? Olly has no time to finish Olly 2. Imho rightfully, he doesnt care of giving away his project to others, and we are here waiting for a full olly2 (or at least a 1.10 that really, truly works with win64..).

I'd like to sit on the fence with this one whilst acknowledging everyone else's contribution / opinion.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsporaw.livejournal.com%2F88098.html

The link above is an interesting point of view specifically related to IDA; it suggests that Ilfak's own restrictive sales policy is more of a problem than casual piracy. Of course you can also argue that it his choice to make as to who he sells too as well.....

At the end; everyone has to make their own choice ;-).

Regards,

CrackZ.

Interesting article by sporaw .

As for the other comments, shit gets cracked.
If you have the ability to support the creator of a soft,
then do so. I have done so many times.

Woodmann

AND,

Finally working, thanks to UNIQUE.

No .key yet. But it works.

Hex-Rays is still 1.1

Have Phun

things havnt changed at all
even the arrogance my program cant be cracked/is secure is still a often sayed thing the days

good or evil ?

I agree! Nothing is more manly than sitting in front of a display all day long, typing on a keyboard. One can really smell the testosterone dripping from the sweating fingertips. What it takes to crack something is balls, not brains. It's an act of bravery.

The problem with software is not those who use a pirated version for hobby, but that many companies stop buying the given software, even big companies. Not IDA, all software. I think most companies wouldn't have problems with free personal licenses if it wouldn't affect so badly their corporate sales.

What I find surprising is not the pirating of software (which is unavoidable), but the rhetoric about it. All this rebellious tough-talking of the RCE underground almost never ends up in actually improving society or doing something selfless.

I remember a friend of mine, a very famous cracker at the time, who cracked something very popular. He felt very bad when the developer of the cracked software told him how his crack made him go out of business.
The same thing happened in similar ways to other friends of mine. People who could really brag today about their past but don't, because they feel bad about any possible damage they may have caused.
This is the difference between many of the past generation and nowadays.

While, such as any other field, even RCE had to lose its innocence and become 'like anything else', it could've maintained some moral dignity.

That being said, I've always thought that those who can't afford a software should have it for free. I subscribe to the mentality of those who crack a software just for the challenge of it and then still buy its license if they can afford it and want to support it. But the reality is that for many small/medium businesses giving out free copies is like committing suicide (or mutilating themselves at least). I personally grew up in a country where 99,999% of IT companies which themselves sell software only use pirated one. As Maximus correctly stated, the effect of piracy is reduced by high numbers, so that those who really suffer the effects of piracy are only small fishes. These small fishes will, if necessary, look for a job at places like Microsoft, Google or other big IT places, because everybody needs to eat and pay rent. But I don't see that as a good thing.

"I remember a friend of mine, a very famous cracker at the time, who cracked something very popular. He felt very bad when the developer of the cracked software told him how his crack made him go out of business."

I think I could name the cracker and the software in 2 guesses or less ;-).

As for IDA itself, I'm not sure I'd categorise it as a *cracking challenge* in the purest sense, seeing as the biggest *challenge* would actually appear to be getting hold of a copy in the first place. Leaking ones own personal copy or stealing one doesn't strike me as being in the spirit of RCE. Now if someone actually managed to take apart ida.wll completely and relink it without all of the watermarks that would be worthy of praise.

Regards,

CrackZ.

Sounds like a challenge :-) cant join though..have to be a good boy now :-(

I don't think RCE ever begun as a means of improving society or doing something selfless.

THAT, is the area of Open Source Movement.

RCE was meant to break software. And use it for your own purposes.

From a MORAL perspective, RCE itself is wrong. It sides with Chaos, not Order. The idea of SEEING somebody else's code (even for just "studying" purposes), and even in ASSEMBLY, is akin to copying at the exams. You're not MEANT to do that. You've been ASKED, PLEADED and THREATENED not to do that (hello disclaimers, hello licensing agreements). Does that stop you?

Having a single product that is the best in the world, and THEREFORE should not be cracked is like saying that no one should scale EVEREST because it's the most majestic and the tallest. People have and will.

In the above mentioned examples most of the old crackers felt bad for the companies they had destroyed because they DISTRIBUTED the cracks. Cracking, per se, did not force the company to go out of business. Finally, I see why you are on the edge. Now all those "moral-less bastards out there" get to use the latest version of IDA pro. You could be out of a job!!

Daniel Pistelli, I hope you realize that my previous points are about, and the point that we ARE ALSO debating about, is the questionability of CRACKING the software, not DISSEMINATING the cracks, right?

I am not interested in arguing about the moral ethics of software piracy, which is what I think you have got it confused with.

Grow up, son. Read my previous posts again. Then, when you feel you've assimilated them completely, re-read them again.

But seeing now that 6.1 IS released, what are you going to do son? Join google or microsoft? I mean, everybody's got to pay rent and eat right?

Not that *I* see it as a good thing though.

Say hello to Ilfak for me.

Have Phun

100 % for that

Aimless,

what is it with all the stored aggression against people who want their software to be paid for? in their mind, it is economics / a business model.. are they not entitled for any sort of reward?
do they have to sit all day long coding, improving, adding..etc so that you'll your free *cracked* copy? No, if they will stop because of that, than you can pretty much say good bye to your favorite reversing/analyzing tool IDA (or whatever)..

So why not settle for IDA Free than? isn't that enough?

Bengaly,

I have absolutely no intentions of imposing my views on software piracy. I am quite sympathatic those who say that software (exclusive, and made by small companies) such as hex-rays are adversely affected because of leaks, though I don't get particularly weepy when they are. I also do not condone people making money off their hard earned programs. I have no qualms whatsoever with that concept.

What I am saying is, I don't like people making statements that you should NOT CRACK the software itself, at all. Why not? I can crack anything I very well wish to. Pirate it, distribute it --- well, that's another ballgame. Here, we are talking about people talking about how we should NOT CRACK it at all. Not pirate it, not spread the crack, not spread the knowledge, just NOT TO CRACK IT AT ALL. Worse, I absolutely HATE it, when people AUTOMATICALLY associate, and club cracking with piracy. As you did. Yes, cracking is a percusor to piracy, but that does not mean you should associate it such. It is precisely because of these reasons that people look down upon crackers as 'bad guys'. F+ tried for YEARS to disassociate this. Remember his statement that this site would henceforth host only knowledge and not cracks? THAT is precisely why. If you are a cracker, you are a pirate. That is not an accurate assessment. And yet, in making statements such as the one YOU did, you are unknowingly, associating cracking with piracy. And I take serious objection to that.

I blew up to your response, because you said "yet you spit in". I read it as a direct attack to the crackers. I believe, if I crack the software, and use it for my own purposes, it should be OK. Curse me if I distribute the crack, but don't condone me for cracking something in the privacy of my own home. Your message came across to me as just that. Just because its IDA, does not mean I cannot crack it, or use it for my own purposes. Feel free to pass judgement and curse me when I distribute the patches. THAT is what brings companies down, not cracking. And yet people associate this phenomen with cracking. Oh! his program was cracked. That is why his company went down. NO! The crack was SPREAD. Hence his company went down. The pirates are guilty. Not the crackers. And this line cannot afford to be blurred.

That is the point of confusion. Daniel got confused because of that. Of course, he's too young in this field (only 9 years) and still has stars in his eyes with his marriage to Hex-rays. And with the recent threat, he cannot see it from a detached angle. When your livelihood is threatened, fine lines like these tend to become blurred. I have no grouse towards him. I merely mentioned to him what I am telling you. I have no issues when people object against piracy (though I myself, for the record, am NEUTRAL towards piracy) by take offense when people object against cracking itself. Who is anybody, to pass judgement on what I crack in the my home and use it for my own purposes?

For the record, I agree (in small measure) that small companies should have their software paid for AND not have their program cracks floating around. But I disagree that someone should not CRACK it, even for his/her own purposes.

And I don't really agree TOO MUCH to the fact that you should think about small companies (again, this is MY opinion).

After all, I am sure Ilfak did not stain his pillows with his tears when Datarescue (then), brought Peter Urbanik and his company down, right?

Peace.

Have Phun

I'm sorry, but the confusion doesn't seem to be on my part on that. I just posted because I thought your answer to Bengaly was aggressive and the attitude made my eyes roll.

Aimless please note that the topic started with the link to a leak. Not knowledge whatsoever. Cracking IDA, as noted CrackZ, is easy.

I didn't post because I'm connected to IDA (more on that later), but normally on this forum I don't see links to leaked software and I wouldn't even have bothered posting if it was only the link to the leak.



This has never been under debate. I personally have cracked/unpacked programs when I was 15-17, although I have never released a crack, I only wrote some tutorials for others to read. For instance, the first program I have cracked in my life was mIRC. I have bought a mIRC license nonetheless. Some programs I couldn't afford at the time and only paid for them when I started working.



No offence taken and none intended. I don't want to flame, really.

But don't threat me as a company man. While it is true I work for Hex-Rays it is also true that I have now my own company. I doubt that the leak will cause big problems to Hex-Rays such as previous leaks had. But I can't speak for Hex-Rays and I'm not.

When I was much much younger I experienced a pirate version of a program of mine right after releasing it. As a developer you always have to consider whether to use a commercial protection and possibly bother customers or only use a minimal protection. I always chose the second option, because for many programs which are both too big and critical, using an advanced protection might make the program unstable and of course harder to debug in case of a crash etc.
Also, I always believed by mistake that making the protection of a program incredibly stupid would make the crackers smile and ignore the program. Not so. There's plenty of untalented crackers who jump on it and release it just to exhibit another trophy.



Why not.

Aimless,

I never said you can't crack for your own personal gains (knowledge, free copy..etc), but distributing the crack is something else, it hurts the software you so dearly depends on..

just like SICE, IDA could be dead someday ...

Okay.

I think this has stretched out too far.

Daniel, I'd like to thank you for your civilized responses. A tip of the hat for you for those. I am sure Ilfak is richer in spirit for your presence in Hex-rays

Bengaly, I'll move with the assumption that I misread your comments and hence the counter comments from me. I'd also like to admit it was a bit too pushy when I came to the defense of the crackers. Please excuse my abruptness.

I'd like to offer an olive branch to both of you --- Daniel and Bengaly.

And others who could possibly have been offended by the harsh nature of this thread. Though I'll take responsibility and say I started it.

I'll still continue on my opinion that cracking *any* software at home and using it for personal purposes is fair game. Regardless of how big or small the developer is.

As far as spreading the crack is concerned, I'll keep my neutral stance. I don't condone it. I don't cheer it.

As far as having feelings for software developers, and Daniel's positive take on that, all I can say is: SMOOOCHHH!!! (that was me kissing Ilfak and every other small developer --- not a pretty sight, by any means )

And finally, thanks to the great Woodmann... for having the patience to tolerate us on *HIS* board. I'd love to squeeze you in appreciation, you big Daddy!

Crackz. Next time I buy you a few crates of beer you olden goldie! And you can teach me how to RCE the barcodes on the crates. Using gronked copy of IDA 6.1 of course!

Okay, everything is sunny and bright and pink and smells of jasmine and roses again.

Peace: ON!

Have Phun

Thanks Aimless for your nice response.

I agree with you and let's thank Woodmann for keeping this space alive

Peace.

New IDA Leak, this time it's a copy stolen from ESET with all the newest updates such as newest Hexrays decompiler:

http://pastebin.com/GGHKqx7E

Ouch !

Sp0raw on a roll !!!

Lot of hostility between him and Ilfak.

Any of the ones in the know, want to comment in on this?

Have Phun

There isn't much moral high ground for anyone here, but this release was inevitable.

However, IMHO, sp0raw is wrong for releasing this for the damage it will now cause to the future development of IDA as a product and Ilfak is wrong to maintain his hypocrisy of 'selectively choosing which ex-crackers' he sells his product to.

This one will run and run.....(for a while).

Regards,

CrackZ.

While I personally think that there'd be a moral on doing releases (aka understand if the damage you deal to the company is sustainable by it), my main point on IDA was utilitaristic, rather than moral:

I need IDA etc, I need it developed further. I guess every cracker/reverser need it developed further. I dont want it to be SoftIce 2nd, or the endless Olly2win7 story.

About the Sp0raw's story on IDA licenses... actually, they are less restrictive than he says (unless he changed them recently).

...and in the end, was Ilfak right or wrong believing that selling him a license would have caused a leak? :P

As far as I'm concerned, I'm happy that my company bought IDA 6 It greatly improved our productivity in the technical audits I led that included reversing.
No need for the latest one...for now.

yep... now its official a full leak of IDA 6.1 with HexRays 1.5 from ESET

read all about it here:
http://habrahabr.ru/blogs/infosecurity/124054/

LaBBa >



Chip&Dale..?