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Lise_Grim
February 11th, 2003, 13:35
hello,

first I hope not posting on the bad forum.
Well, my question goes of course on the "+" Message Board.
With the +HCU, we had some "+" persons who
were and always are our "leaders" for R.E.

But now that's not clear.
Maybe it's the time to have new "+" ?

I'm nobody that's why I can post such message,
but I think that some members of UG, CoRE, DAMN, ECL, TMG
and other +Group, The Owl, The Analyst, our French "guru"
Christal, Crackz and many others can become "+".

But that's my advice as newbie in Cracking.

I hope you won't consider it as something not interesting.

Sorry for being so "direct"

Lise_Grim

Woodmann
February 11th, 2003, 18:52
Hi,

Your post is fine, I see no problem.

The times have changed and everyone has chosen new
roads to travel. The roads they have followed include *nix,
W32ASM and VB, etc; Others have retired.

Sometimes + people will visit but the "+" is not generally
used anymore. Those days are gone now.

There are many "new" ones that have good skills.
They reside in all places that concern codeworks.

Peace, Woodmann

deedee
February 11th, 2003, 19:42
hi lise-grim and Woodmann,

I am a pure newbie, but I would also like to give my
opinion here ... for me, the "+" is not for somebody who extremely good in technique, but somebody good in his spirit ...

I don' know in the other countries, but in the French scene, I name christal "+", because he wrote many tutorials and did a lot of thing impossible to help others crackers to advance in "cracking"(from 1998...) and i can't forget him...

today...the crff (cracking frence forum), k509 (the bigest french tutorial page) is down, and christal is gone...

for me , lots of nostalgie for this periode...


regards
deedee.

Woodmann
February 11th, 2003, 20:10
Hi deedee,

I agree with your choice of "+"

And I also enjoy the history of RE.
That is why I keep this place going.

Peace, Woodmann

Devine9
February 11th, 2003, 22:54
I agree with you woodman. I also think your efforts to keep the past RE scene alive are very important. This is one of the last remaining places where people cleanly pass information amongst one another without thought of whether it will adjust their current stature. A great job.

For the + though, I don't think its justified in today's scene. Back in the day being in the +HCU was a great thing, but you didn't need a + in front of your name to show it. The same goes with today. Once you have been around the bush a few times you know all the big names, you don't need the +.

also, christal is very much alive

Cheers,

Devine Right [RET]
http://ret.mine.nu

tgodd
February 12th, 2003, 00:20
Back in the 80's and early 90's there were no +'s
No forums like this one either.

One had to go it alone pretty much.

These are the times I come from.
No Tuts, No +'s, and Nobody Kraming a search engine down your throat, as there was nothing to search.


+EGO

What's the big hype. Every body has been a newbie.
Todays newbies will ultimately surpass any of todays +'s.

I'm not for +ing anyone.

just my opinion.


Regards,

tgodd

Devine9
February 12th, 2003, 11:17
Well I was not sure as to post my first post on this board in reply to this thread, but I felt it warranted by Woodman's post, to give thanks to him for this. I've never been much for message forums, although I believe that the future of reverse engineering relies strongly on a good solid place to exchange information.

No, the beginners of today will not surpass the advanced reversers if they don't have that ability. Protections today are moving much more quickly than they have been in the past, and there is potential for advanced members to lose the connection with beginners.

On my board i've always pushed that idea and I think for the most part that idea is also brought across on this board. I have been reading this forum for a very long time, but haven't in the past subscribed to it to post. Unfortunately this thread just got screwed by the all so popular, i'm leet, let me describe my skills to everyone here tactic. Input is welcome, biographies are for your diary.

But I am looking forward to continuing this thread. This is a very important topic for the future of reversing, so if we can agree on how we all think the best route to take would be. I'd be very interested in taking it into consideration and perhaps adapting my own approach.

Devine Right [RET]
http://ret.mine.nu

JMI
February 12th, 2003, 12:38
Perhaps it would be useful to recognize the "+" for what it is and what it is not. As I understand the history of the +HCU, it was a requirement to earn the "+" sign that the individual passed a test. Those who passed the tests, which involved complex reverse engineering skills, "earned" the certification of "+".

This is essentially little different than a number of both honorary and sanctioned "pre" or "post" designations that society or some sanctioning body premits individuals, who have passed various requirements, to afix to there names, ranging from "Dr.", "Ph.D", etc. to more mundane activities such as "certified air conditioning specialists" or simply signifying membership in an organization or group.

One can, therefore, recognizes the "+" sign, not as a designation of the human qualities of the individual or of their willingness, or ability to share their knowledge, or to teach it successfully to others, but simply as an identification that they have passed a difficult test, and that the numbers of those who accomplished that challenge, at that time, are few and skilled, and that they have earned the right to that particular designation. It is a "merit badge," designating that particular accomplishment.

We can then give them that credit of which they are due, and still judge them, in the present, not by whether or not they passed that test, but by what they have to contribute and/or teach to the rest of us attempting to master our own level of skill and accomplishment. Some with the "+" are, or were great teachers, as are many who did not take, or might not have passed, that particular test.

Perhaps there are some who envy those who have the "+" because it sets them apart, on one level, from those who do not. But instead of envying their "+" sign, let's, instead, envy the skill level that entitles them to "wear" it, and aspire to the achievment of that level of skill or higher, ourselves. They use the designation because they "earned" it, but we "honor" them only if their actions are "honorable." We all have seen that some who earned the HUC "+" are sadly lacking in redeeming social graces, but while that may lessen their appeal or usefulness to the rest of us, it does not really address the issue of their right to wear that particular "merit badge" which they had to earn. It was not given for social graces, but for having sufficient skill to pass a particular test.

I had the "privilege" of studying my profession with some of the most preminent scholars of my profession, the people who wrote many of the books used for teaching these subjects at most of the schools for this profession throughout the U.S. Most were brilliant scholars, but only some were great teachers. Some delighted in demonstrating their superior knowledge over the students and some delighted in imparting knowledge to the students. Only the second category were of much use.

So may I suggest we stop fixating on whether or not a contributor here has, or doesn't have a "+" and simply focus on whether or not we are being given information that helps us expand our own skill and knowledge. In the end, this is what really matters.

Regards.

Lise_Grim
February 12th, 2003, 12:38
hello,

nice to see intelligent people

Thanks Woodmann to keep it alive, i'm sure you
will see me very soon for that and not for
my nfotemple (nfotemple.cjb.net)

Well my post was also to know conditions to be now a "+".
I mean, crypto,unpacking are now something that
"everybody" must know to be a standard cracker/reverser.

So, now (again), how can someone pretend to be a "+" ?
Is Dimedrol a potential "+" with his first Winrar 2.80 Keygen ?
Is Christoph Gabler a potential "+" with his works and his
generic unpacker ?
etc....
Is Christal a potential "+" with his works, tools which helped and help French newbies and also advanced crackers...
Is this person a potential "+" because he did 500 keygens ?
Hard to know... they have my respect and for me they are
virtual "+"

"lots of nostalgie for this periode" as DeeDee said... well, for me too.

Regards,

Lise_Grim
PS : I have to learn English quickly

tgodd
February 12th, 2003, 12:55
No doubt Woodman deserves acclaim for
continuing this service.

Thanks Woodman.

As for the +:

There are many who do not have the +, that are well qualified
to attain it. There are many people without university degrees
that surpase the PH.D holders.

The + has and always will mean nothing to me.

People with accreditation, often Grow EGOs, which
tend to get in the way of there Intellectual capabilities.

As far as I am concerned we all do what we do to the best of our abilities.

Nobody deserves to be called a dummy, or stupid.

I've heard many a person talk with BIG words with hollow meaning.

To anybody that feels intimidated by anybody here:
Do not be intimidated by anyone.

Regards,

tgodd

JMI
February 12th, 2003, 13:28
Which reminds me of the old joke that after going to college for four years, one can get a "B.S." degree and we all know what that stands for. If you go for an additional period of tine and write a paper, you can get an "M.S." degree which means "More of the Same." If you then continue on for a few more years, pass a test and write another paper (that almost no one will read) you can get a "Ph.D", which means simply that the original "B.S." is "Piled Higher and Deeper."

Regards.

tgodd
February 12th, 2003, 14:56
Bwahahahahaha

I like that one.

regards,
tgodd

Woodmann
February 12th, 2003, 15:16
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAA....



JMI has written some very good things about the +
I can only agree with him and I certainly agree that
there are those teachers who can "teach"

I know that this topic can sometimes get a littly touchy.
Respect for others opinion is important, it is how and
why this place works.
I do not think I have every seen anyone here who has taken
exception to anyones skills.
Most of all you are kind to me the one who has the least
amount of skill.

Peace, Woodmann

tgodd
February 12th, 2003, 15:34
Oh come-on Woodman,

You kuda put a wee bit of ego into that.



regards,

tgodd

JMI
February 12th, 2003, 16:34
Wood:

Glad to see you are in it because you enjoy the history of RE. I always assumed you were in it for all the money you are making off running this board. (Oh, if they only knew the effort you have invested to keep it going for all, including the ungrateful.)

As we used to say in the Nam, "F*ck'm if they can't take a joke, and Nuke'm 'til it hurts." Woodmann's a "+" in my book for simply keeping this effort alive, even if he doesn't know the proper football team to support. (Inside joke).

Best Regards.

Kayaker
February 12th, 2003, 17:51
No arguments here on how the scene still remains alive after all this time and continues to develop. The Internet IS an interesting little worldwide social experiment. Somehow people around the globe get along and create something positive, even if it is only a discussion group. Too bad the real world can't behave in a similar respectful manner where the only border is your keyboard.

Regards all,
Kayaker

mala
February 13th, 2003, 07:08
Hello everybody

I'm very happy to write my first message here (well, unless I had registered previously with another name and forgot it, which might happen) about +HCU and the "plus" symbol. I'm happy because I always like to remember "good old times", as probably anyone does, and _these_ were _my_ good old times.

I'm also not sure about what kind of flames this message might start but hey, I trust in the board moderators For the most polemic ones, understand that everything you'll read is written the way I witnessed it, and I just wanted you to know my thoughts about it. I'm not writing as an authority, because I'm not an authority at all: I'm an old cracker who (probably) cannot even rebuild a IAT, but who thinks that rebuilding a IAT doesn't solve many problems, while reversing does.

If anyone has already read this story on my website, please pardon me: I liked that so much I've decided to directly cut'n'paste a great part of it. Finally, if anyone of the old (but not SO old) school has anything to add to this story, I'd be glad to read it.

A long time ago, reversing wasn't called reversing. That was mainly because
people didn't reverse programs, but most of all because they didn't reverse
reality at all. Some of them had very good technical skills, but used them to
become famous, or even to make money, just by unprotecting programs. And even
if sometimes, thinking about those days, I wish that some of those gurus had
spread their knowledge instead of keeping everything for theirselves, now I
just think that it just wasn't the right moment. So, that period remains for
me as a Golden Era of Myth, where I could go out and buy a magazine with tons
of pirated videogames, and spend the rest of the day playing with them, good
as the original ones even if their names had always been changed... All I
learned from the beautiful intros of many games was that this art was called
_cracking_, and that some "elite" groups mastered that art so well that they
could unprotect almost any software.

Years later, a good and powerful master (whose real identity is still -and
probably will remain- unknown) decided to share his cracking knowledge with
others. Well, "with others" is not right: he wanted to share it with
_everyone_. That's why he decided to write and spread on the Internet a
collection of tutorials, in which you could learn from the basics of DOS
cracking to the standard of bar codes, reading something about Windows
protections and reality reversing too.

What was reality reversing? Well, it was just the same techniques you use for
software reversing, but applied to everything else which surrounds you in the
"real" world (how much will this world be the real one is another thing we
could speak about, but that's another story). And this doesn't mean you can
patch a jump in a person, or that you can debug a supermarket, at least not
with the same tools you use with a computer: this means, instead, that you
can use the same _mind_processes_ and _rational_techniques_ to crack a
program, reverse a piece of news inside a newspaper or buy a SBLive paying it
as if it was a SB16 (someone really did it just playing for a while with
barcodes...). And if the rational part of your mind still isnt' enough, just
follow the Zen way!

This great master was the first one I heard speaking about Zen Cracking, and
this is an idea nobody will ever be able to delete from my mind. Even now,
after so much inactivity, when I happen to crack something I sometimes still
can _feel_ the code and, as it happens when a Zen student reaches
illumination, I understand in a moment how everything works. If it happened
to you too, you can understand what I mean.

The man of Zen Cracking was +ORC, the Old Red Cracker, master for _all_ the
"pluses" you might meet in your life. If I remember well, he decided to use
that plus before his name to make it harder to find with search engines...
Anyway, all the people who wear that plus are either his students or have
decided to use it as a sign of respect to that wise man.

I was talking about students... Well, yes, because he didn't just upload his
tutorials and let them teach all the hard stuff for him, but he created an
online school for those who really wanted to learn the art of cracking. The
name of this school was "High Cracking University", and you might probably
still find something about it on the net just by searching for "+HCU" or
"+HCUckers", which is the name of its students.

I'm not one of the "first generation" students, because I reached the school
only one year after +ORC opened it. And while I was studying to solve the
"strainer" (which, IMO, was probably the easiest one in the whole history of
the university), people like +swann (the first student who published a tute
at +fravia's), +fravia (who created a website which has been a starting point
for most of the reversers you can meet now) and +gthorne (another mighty
reverser whose page has been the home of the great +orcpacks, and whose name
is still present in the +HCU*nix messageboard) were working together and
creating new tutorials which would have become guides for the next generation
of crackers.

I joined the +HCU during its second year of life, and published my first tute
on +fravia's after a few days. But the story of the +HCU is another story,
and I'll tell it another time. Since then, many years passed and I joined
other groups of reversers. I learned many new things from +HCUckers and from
other people (a big hug goes to all RingZero friends), but I still remember
what +ORC wrote just a few weeks after my admission...

I leave you with +his words: please read this mail, think that it was
October 1997 and look with your eyes how much he had already understood of
the future.

Now that you know the story, go and tell it to your kids. And if you feel
you respect this great man, feel free to put a plus before your name and/or
drop a 'hi +ORC' here in this forum (if the moderators agree ^__^). I'm
sure that wherever +he is now, if +he likes to browse his students' sites
from time to time, +he'll be happy to read this

P.S. I'm sorry I had to cut away the mail +ORC wrote, but the message was getting far too long. If you like, I might post it as a separate message or you can download it from one of old fravia's mirrors.

P.P.S.: I found one URL to +ORC's mail:

http://hackjaponaise.cosm.co.jp/archives/websites/fravia/newuni.htm

tgodd
February 13th, 2003, 07:46
1997 Not that long ago.....

I am sure then that many of the +'s have reversed my emulators then....

They know who I am then.




regards,

tgodd

kugi
February 13th, 2003, 12:09
Hi,

Thank you Woodmann and your crew for the fine job you are doing with the rce.

At one time the "+" was a big deal. Fravia would post a yearly "strainer" or test. Those who answered correctly were given the "+" by Fravia. Now, those who want to place the "+" with their handle do. Nothing to get excited about.

Regards, kugi

vgb
February 13th, 2003, 13:36
Well, as one who has been around since Fravia's site was on Compuserve, it has been very interesting to watch the evolution of RE. The venerable +Orc was an almost magical entity - most cracking was target specific but still general enough to learn from.

Now, I think the 'mysticism'( if that's the right word ) is gone and we have some really brilliant work being done. I think the '+' is a remnant of that mysticism AND a sign of respect and achievement in passing the strainer and it's time has passed.

Been quite a while since I posted here, Woodmann - have had to re-up a few times because of it <g> but I also wanted to express my thanks to you for your interest and dedication. Maintaining an entity like this MUST be a labor of love - you sure aren't gonna get rich running it!

Take care,

vgb

Devine9
February 14th, 2003, 00:17
Yes but above all I think that now is the time to move forward. This board talks about reversing the PE a lot.. Something I'm not fully directing my attention towards these days. There is an immeasurable amount of other things out there in this world to be reversing. To borrow a small quote from +Ma (mala), "2003 is the year of reversing." I think the reversing side of things has been on a down slope for some time, but things are beginning to change now. I look forward to the year to come, with or without the +

Devione Right [RET]
http://ret.mine.nu