Stop creating new message board forums!!!

There are plenty that already exist, such as ExeTools' forum, the reverse-engineering.net forum, and this forum.

But how many of those boards are dedicated to the real newbie.
A place where they can ask any question without getting yelled at.

A place where they can learn how to use the tools when they have no idea what they are doing.

A place where code can be explained for someone who knows nothing.

It is not a place to get instant answers, it is a place to learn.
They need to be shown the direction. They want to learn, they just dont know how.

They have come from a place where everything is a template environment.
They dont know how to think on their own and they want to learn.

What was the old saying ??
"GIVE them a fish and they eat today, TEACH them to fish and they eat for a lifetime."

The same applies for reverse code engineering.

Are we saying all newbies perform the way you have mentioned above?

I assume all newbies come to our board with a solid idea of what they want, their attempts at breaking something and provide us with their ideas and ask for our assistance, right?

Unfortunately, very few newbies do that. Its mostly:

1. I opened xyz program. Its time controlled. How do I hack it?
2. Guys please, I need the flexlm key for abc program
3. What is softice? huh?

...and many such other things.

You would, of course, have noticed that REAL newbies, who do not even know what they are looking for (Gee, how do I start learning to crack?) are also answered to. As are people who say they are cracking something, place the efforts they have undertaken and then ask where they are stuck.

Most newbies here belong in either of the 3 types.

And by the way, on so many newbie boards, you will ALSO note that people with inane requests (Holy Cow, where do I find Ida Pro 4.8 full version..) things generally do not get replied too.

Instead newbies are confused. Wow, should I go to the "I-can-get-you-all-tools' board or should I go to the "place-crack-request-wait-for-15-days-come-back" boards.

Hence the request.

Have Phun

It's an interesting concept - a lot of the really bright people investigate a forum by reviewing prior posts and the reactions to "dumb" questions like "I've got this disassembler and I have very little concept of what I'm looking at, I've read some manuals and tutorials but I want to play a little in between reading, why is there a jmp short_locxxxxxx and a jmp loc_xxxxxx and what's the difference, isn't a call xxxxx the same also?" on most forums they would be told to go back and read a lot more - perhaps a little explanation and coaxing to experiment by changing things in a debugger would yield a little more enthusiasm. Kind of like having someone knowledgable looking over your shoulder. I kind of wonder if some reactions to a "dumb" question have discouraged some from even asking.

Just thinking out loud (aint many TI99A's to play with anymore )

SiGiNT

The quality and usefulness of a forum is directly related to the experience of it's user base. Experienced reversers are unlikely to hang around long on a 100% newbie forum (which is what I perceive meltdown to be asking for), as they will get bored of responding to the same questions repeatedly. Thus a 100% newbie forum is likely to only have one or 2 people, the forum owners, with the skills to answer questions with authority.

As a side note, RCE is a different animal to, say, generic coding assistance forums. With generic code issues (for example, "how do I update a textbox in visual basic", newbies can usually extract the relevant parts of the response, bodge it into their code, use debug messages or intellisense in the IDE and generally get it working. RCE doesn't lend itself to "shock and awe" tactics like that. To reverse anything you need to understand what you're trying to do and an approximate way of approaching it, otherwise you'll be wandering around in the <insert codewoods quote> for a long time.

That's not to say intuition doesn't help. It's perfectly possible to "feel" what a section of code is doing and how to patch it, without needing to intimately understand every line of code. That's how I do a lot of my reversing, as I'm far from an asm expert. But you still need a reasonable amount of foundation knowledge and willingness to put effort in.

I would even venture to say it's relatively easy to learn the absolute basics of RCE. There is a huge amount of information available out there ("out there" being linked at the bottom of the page), and it will get you started. Yes, you might get tripped up the first time you encounter a packed application or even anything more than a simple je/jne patch, but taking the time to learn the absolute basics allows you to form sensible questions and place the replies in context. I've never seen anyone get yelled at for even the most basic questions (and I've asked a few ) as long as they've explained their question carefully and shown they've done some work to get to that point.

And that's what the forum rules here ensure. Take the rules away in a new forum and you'll be left with what Aimless has listed as 1,2,3.

I'm totally with disavowed on this one ;-), in fact I'd also add that I'd like to see less forums within forums if that makes sense (for example here we have the RCE Forums and then beneath the various sub-areas). I recently visited the MASM forums again and its enough to make you lose the will to live seeing everything divided into minute subject areas.

I also used to think like meltdown; 'the teaching to fish analogy', the unfortunate conclusion I've come too is that with the best will in the world only a few in a thousand ever learn to fish with any degree of competence, only a few in a hundred thousand give back more fish than they've caught, and theres a mass that'll simply never learn to hold the rod no matter what you try ;-).

Regards

CrackZ.

Actually, I've only ever heard about one single guy through the entire world history who could hand out more fish than he caught. I think his name was something like "Jesus", and I'm quite sure he had a pretty powerful hidden companion to assist him with this trick.

I'll just quote my self from another post on this board...


Funny thing...
No one of the "old" guys remebers that saying...

Hope the link bring some memories back.

Regards

Thanks for the comments.

I still feel as if there are some people who are misinterpeting the goal.

Here is a "for instance" :

004014C4 |. C745 FC FFFFFF>MOV DWORD PTR SS:[EBP-4],-1
004014CB |. 8D4D 84 LEA ECX,DWORD PTR SS:[EBP-7C]
004014CE |. E8 19060000 CALL <JMP.&MFC42.#755>
004014D3 |. EB 0B JMP SHORT crackme1.004014E0
004014D5 |> 8B8D 7CFFFFFF MOV ECX,DWORD PTR SS:[EBP-84]
004014DB |. E8 80030000 CALL crackme1.00401860
004014E0 |> 8B4D F4 MOV ECX,DWORD PTR SS:[EBP-C]
004014E3 |. 64:890D 000000>MOV DWORD PTR FS:[0],ECX
004014EA |. 8BE5 MOV ESP,EBP
004014EC |. 5D POP EBP
004014ED \. C3 RETN

Now I know these things have been explained a thousand times but, there are still people who do not understand.
They are the very same people who need to have a print out of the needed manuals so they can follow. Most of the tutorials assume that you understand what POP EBP means. For a newbie who has no understanding, this needs to be explained.
So we can tell them what it means but, what is the relationship to what is above or below it ?? If it was as easy as go read the manual, they would not need to ask such questions.

Think of this new place as the very first day in C++ or VB or whatever....
They need to start somewhere. A place where it can be explained so they UNDERSTAND, not just read it.

Out of date tutorials are of no help either. They are trying to follow tutorials that do not include the original target. It is of no use when qqqq.exe is V1.0 in the tutorial when they can only find qqqq.exe V2.7.

Please remember, the goal is to NOT provide the answer, it is to have them LEARN the flow and find the answer themselves.

If no one cares about this new place, it is no big deal. It will just go away.

No one said it was easy to read the manual though. It can take a long time and can sometimes be tedious. Tutorials usually assume that you know some assembly (at least the small subset of instructions that are used a lot by compilers). That requires that you have some programming background as well.

Things like "pop ebp" are all explained in a "programming in x86 ("intel" assembly" book. It is useless to explain to someone that this takes a DWORD at the top of the stack and puts it in register EBP; if they don't know what a stack is, what a register is, etc... you get the idea.

My personal opinion of what a newbie's roadmap should be:
1 - Learn how to program basic applications
1a - You can make the learning curve easier with scripting/markup languages.
1b - Learn a "real" programming language.
2 - Learn how your programming environment works (e.g.: compilers)
3 - Learn assembly language for your platform of choice
4 - Start using your knowledge to a specific application (RCE)
5 - Read tutorials, forum discussions, investigate on your own

This is an iterative process, you will progressively augment your knowledge in all subjects, but you should generally follow that order.

Steps 1,2,3 are VERY well documented everywhere, on the net, in book stores, at school. The following steps usually do not have as much proper documentation, so people created their own tutorials, and online discussion groups. Usually, people skip one or more of steps 1,2,3 - because they want to "crack" not program (not realizing these concepts are very closely related)- This is why they sometimes get flamed if it obvious that they could have put some additional effort.

This is why I so rarely check the OpenRCE forums... they're just so damn hard to navigate through.

Howdy,

Given the discussion here, I can safely delete the Packing forum, the crypto forum, the Linux forum and the newbie forum.
Why,
Who can honestly say they are sick of seeing the same old unpacking shit ?
No wait, who actually even reads the unpacking forum ?

The crypto forum, I have no idea what the fuck is going on in that place.
You can look at my posts in the mini project area to see that I am having troubles with algo's. Besides for about 6 people, no one cares about Linux stuff.

Ahhhhh, the newbie forum. The place where people are more then ready to hand out shit before they help.

There could be 100 newbie forums out there but only the select few will attract people.
This place has gotten by with names. If it were not for those who came before me, no one would give a shit about this place.

Peace, Woodmann

I' m going to watch this one and probably participate - Imagine the humor that this could have, something we're missing somewhat here, I just love it when I set a breakpoint and EAX contains DEADC0DE, or the one I ran into tonight playing around with an old version of arma - Memory access violation trying to access 002BADF00. Who knows I'll probably learn and re-learn a lot. I don't think anyone made us Judge and Jury.

SiGiNT

I'm just wondering here, but ... if people actually want to learn, don't they have all the info at their fingertips? Hasn't someone already done a lot and collected an excellent bunch of information? So, what would be the point of more newbie forums?
Is it a place where a newbie can come and ask "How do I crack?"
Is it a place where a newbie can come and ask "How do I crack this specific app?"
Is it a place where a newbie can come and ask "I don't know assembly, teach me?"
Is it a place where a newbie can come and ask "Where can I warez softice/IDA/whatever?"
Is it a place where a newbie can come and ask "I'm having trouble understanding some shit, can you guys help me?"

If it's anything but the last, it's got jackall to do with teaching somebody to fish. If it's the last question that is the one that should be answered in the new forum, then why bother? People answer it here already. Nobody throws shit around when they see a good a legit question.
Anyway, don't know how much weight one should attach to my opinion. I've been hanging round here for some time, but not exactly been that active. Then again, there are a lot of more intelligent and much more experienced people here than me, and they typically answer posts faster too, so maybe there's a reason for that. When it comes down to it, I don't think what any old member here says is gonna make a difference to those who feel the need to start a new board. However, I do think that within a short period of time the owners of the new boards will realize that they're not teaching people to fish, no matter how much they'd like that.

Fake

Edit: Btw, is someone gonna move this to offtopic? Is hardly a newbie rce question

First, let me say thank you sincerely for maintaining the knowledge base represented here.

Second, the last time I attempted to get around copy protection software came on cassettes, and it was very simplistic.

Third, some things never change. For instance, the basic knowlege required to reverse a program is always time consuming to aquire. The basic nature of the wannabe -- gimme an easy fix for all of my problems now please, and have a nice life.

I encountered this excellent repository of information on reversing less than a month ago. This is my first post. It will probably be my last for some time. The small bite of info I have aquired will take awhile to digest. I have new tools to learn to apply and things I truly do not have the experience yet to handle to play with.

This board is perfect. As is. Information is available to those who seek.

For those who refuse to seriously make an effort to educate themselves prior to asing a question, treat them as you will.

I freely admit to being overwhelmed. This is a normal reaction to a new subject area. As a noob two paths are in front of me, one that looks daunting, but ultimately rewarding and the other to beg for crumbs at the feet of the table.

I would encourage any other noob to avoid the spot where one is easily kicked and join me in the quest for true knowledge and understanding, so that one day we may also earn a true place at the table.

Thank you again -- I now return to my watching, reading, studying, and experimenting. When I return...I hope to bring back knowledge to contribute.

Facts always reflect at some degree the needs. The creation of new boards means interest in the matter. Interest that gets not fully satisfied, one way or another, by available resources.

Whereas new board creation is the normal way of evolving (why "google" if yahoo or lycos or altavista?), an over-normal creation of them might mean only what I pointed in the prior paragraph.

One choose to post or not to post (xcept crack req's) by looking the tone and the answer other newbie's questions receive. And sometime prefers to keep its problems instead of making questions for avoiding 'raged' answers (or RTFM ones ). This is probably a good reason that brings newbies to ask help elsewhere, where their dumb questions are not so... dumb

It's just like being to a course: if the teacher frightens you, or makes you feel as "dont event think to ask -listen", precious dumb questions won't simply be arisen, and the answer will be searched elsewhere.

Unless newbies has an high knowledge on programming & assembler matter, alot of silly questions will arise, but even with such knowledge dumb questions come out (eheh, I've just re-read my FIRST question on REC).

Also, you'd have to remember that effective reversing has a very high knowledge bar, and conquering it from scratch will produce tons of strange questions (a good boy on REC made an incredible question I didn't realize at first: I need to keygenning -what the hell IS a keygen?)

Posting on an RCE forum where all the questions seems to an high bar might be intimidating for a newbie who really wishes to start well in the stuff. (Please note that I am not pointing fingers or such! I am just expressing my opinion, don't misread it)

Why a Newbie section is required? Why should you need to add 'rotatory' signals on streets? If it's rounded, it's clear... well, it's better to add them -much less crashes that way.

I've felt what is really, really missing. It is the problem I faced when I've chosen to learn RCE. No structured way for learning. Alot of fragments of information, often of very good quality, but no real structure.
It is very frustrating. Tons of useless work and stress that could really be avoided, I think.

Well, just my opinion on the matter.

Regards,
Maximus.

Howdy,

The last two posts are interesting. Are there really newbies out there that want to learn without being flamed ???

Woodmann

Read the last couple of posts, then just couldn't help myself:

- What is a keygen?

Well, let's see what google has to offer:
http://www.google.dk/search?hl=da&q=what+is+a+keygen&btnG=Google-s%C3%B8gning&meta=

First hit points to wikipedia - but is in German. Perhaps there's also an English article about it: Sure enough:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keygen

My point:
Any question that can be answered by 30 seconds searching on google is by definition a dumb question.
What pisses me off about dumb questions is that it shows that people are willing to put in the effort. There are many good questions waiting to be asked, and many of those are on the basic level. But there's a whole heap of basic questions that have already been answered, and the answers to which you can either google or search this board for. Finding those answers will take you probably close to a couple of minutes. So when people don't search but just ask their questions - they just want to be spoonfed a ready solution. Why would anyone want to waste time spoonfeeding babies? Unless you're their mother.....

Fake

ok, let's get serious: take ANY book related Artificial Intelligence AND Expert systems, with regards to the problem of (expert's) knowledge formalization.
You will discover that your view is really "in line" with any expert view. And it is usually what make knowledge "extraction" difficult, as well as reducing the (gr... dont catch the english term) absorbment(?) of it in the master-scholar relationship.

About googleing... oh yes, I tried at very start to use google, but was a true failure for locating things of interest. Google results are like women -you meet them alot, you find the "right" one, then you discover after awhile you have to turn back and search for another one... after half an hour/an hour or so, you give up. After all, you were only looking for a 5-line quick answer, not a poem nor the complex details of XYZ keygen or so.

Googleing requires experience, not only for selecting the appropriate keywords (and their order!), but also for filtering true good results from what is useless for the newbie.

If You google for something special be sure you will find easily what you look for, because it is likely specialistic and good results are 'packed' one way or another. And you have also the experience for discriminating good from bad at sight. But this is not 'natural', it it acquired experience.

(Btw have you examined the 1/2 page of such google links?? if you know german you get its basic definition, else all crackz crap, or useless/complex stuff)

You cannot pretend from students a knowledge base they are suppose to acquire before they gether it, it's a paradox. And right googleing is, in my opinion, a skill that gets 'shaped' with time in the field (and general search too -I found something very interesting out of search engines).

---
About "ready" solutions: you are right on this point, many questions are really basic and repetitive, but searching can be not very easy. I were facing a cm (well, a difficult one) and gave up at start because it used a funny trick for kicking Olly out (NumberofRVA). I ran mad 3 days, found nothing, and ~gave up.
Of course it is easy to find, hey google for "NumberOfRVASections" -but not for "Damn the crackme won't open in Olly, %$£&£$%! "
Being able to search is a skill that gets shaped in time, and the more you understand the problem and the "market", the
more good stuff you find.

New boards gets opened for a reason, and it is simple. Discuss your dumb problems feeling not left alone in the learning path. There are NO schoolbook, not point of reference in the matter. Only many scattered pieces of knowledge, that requires anyway the glue of experience to be found, selected, put together.
And boards, of course. But when you try to understand the way, you likely find RTFM

I think newbies feel lost around, and so the over-normal newbie boards remark such point.
(alternatives? mmh... a predefined path of learning would be very good. I never seen REA, but for all I heard it was something like it. Something good seems also to be at quequero/UIC).

Well, I'll stop writing poems

Regards,
Maximus

(ps: my post should not be read as an attack, but as a fierce defence of its points)

fake51,

Geesh! you miss the whole point! anybody who knows enough to search for "what is a keygen" already knows what a keygen is! But if you search for "how to write a keygen" and don't know squat about assembler or any programming language you quickly will give up. Is there a book called "Assembler for Dummies"? I think not - here is the crux of the issue, before you can even attempt to learn any reversing you need to understand the logic behind the process, try explaining to anyone with highschool math what XOR or CDQ do - that is what the beginners board is for no one here is willing or patient enough to go through an entire learning process - this board alone is quite imposing on first inspection! When I found it I perused a lot of the history and found quite a few people being severely flamed for asking what I thought were perfectly good questions, quite frankly even though i wanted to participate my first impression was that this was an elitist club that required a hazing to join - it took about 6 months before I screwed up the courage to write a post and hit the enter key, newbies need a invitation not a hazing.

IMHO

SiGiNT

Perhaps the newbies need to be taught to search better. Fravia's Searchlores is an excellent site for that purpose. I've yet to read all of it, but I've learned quite a bit from it already.

Reversing has always been somewhat of an art, and requires a certain amount of creativity that most do not possess. Even if one knows all there is to know about the Processor, the OS, and the hardware, one may still be unable to grasp the ways of thinking that reversing require. Knowing how to program does not guarantee that you will know how to reverse; it is only one of the prerequisites.

@Maximus: did you read my post? I specifically stated that the google result is in German. Does that stop you - or anyone else - for thinking for yourself? Thinking that maybe, just maybe, there could be an article in the English part of Wikipedia too? I mean, wtf, what the hell is the problem in asking that people think for themselves?? Do you really, seriously mean to say, that every idiot newbie should be spoonfed everything?? "I can't be bothered to learn a bit about searching google, I should just have everything served on silver platter. And the hell with those stupid reversers if they don't give me what I want." How do you expect ANYONE to learn that way?
I ain't expecting from students a knowledge base ... Coz they aren't students!! This is not a school - this is a community where people can share knowledge as they see fit. There are no teachers here, just people willing to share what they have. The common denominator is that people are here of their own free will, because they want to take part in sharing - either by giving or by receiving. If you want to take part, respect the fact that people are here freely. They owe you NOTHING! You want to learn reversing? You gotta study on your own.
I have no problem with people starting new boards - I just don't see a reason for it. Look at the manual here. Look at the massive amount of info gathered. The knowledge isn't scattered, in fact it's never been more collected. However, that doesn't stop newbies asking for cracks, asking for readymade solutions, asking where to pirate the tools, asking to be led by hand, and bitching at everyone for not giving them everything.
Now, realize that the newbies I'm talking about here are those that ask stupid questions. The ones that read the manual, study on their own, advance and then ask relevant questions - they are never the problem. They, however, don't need new messageboards either - because people around here are perfectly happy to share what they have. They just don't want to be abused.

@SigInt: Newbies don't need invitations - they need responsibility for their own learning. You want to write a keygen? You go figure out what you need in order to do it. You need to learn assembly? You study the frigging topic. Nobody can teach you assembly if you're not willing to do anything about it yourself ... however, should you be interested in learning (and if you're interested in cracking at all, which seems to be the basic assumption, although for a lot of newbies it's a stupid one, you damn well be interested in how code works) there's a shitload of info on the net. It's not hard to find tutorials that will give you a good idea of assembly in a relatively short period of time - if you're willing to learn! My point is: fuck those that aren't willing to learn, the rest will very quickly start asking the right questions, and very quick figure out where to start searching. As stated in my post to Maximus: we aren't teachers and they aren't students. This is a community for sharing knowledge, not for bringing up whining crackers.

Maybe it's just me being stupid and bitter, but I get really pissed off at the idea that people here are responsible for answering every single stupid question there is. Given the history of the board, and the insane amount of stupid people asking for Softice and how to bpx messageboxa I find it hard not to have a lot of respect for those people that still hang around answering questions, taking the time. Why is it too much to ask that people do some work themselves? And no, asking stupid questions isn't doing any work, that's disrespecting the people you're asking.
And just for the record, not every question asked by a newbie is stupid. There's a hell of a lot of difference between "What does xor do?" and "I ripped this serial scheme from a program and have been trying to reverse it. I can't seem to do it, having done this and this, could somebody please give me a second opinion or a hint?". Nothing at all stops you from experimenting in ollydbg with asm mnemonics - except being lazy. Try searching this board for "learning assembly" and see if any relevant posts come up.
Maybe what I need to know is: why is anyones but your own responsibility that you learn how to crack or reverse anything? Why should it be the responsibility of the people here that you learn anything? Is it not you that want to learn? Is it not, then, you that are responsible for your own learning?

Fake

Howdy,

Some very interesting responses to this thread.

I know a lot of people find newbie questions irritating at best. Do you all remember when unpacking questions were all the rage. They were painful at best BUT, we tolerated them and some people helped.

Yes this is a RCE community but, what would this be if no one were willing to help ? It would be nothing more than "go fuck yourself for not asking the correct question".

I have seen so many years of newbie bashing. Shit, I did it myself and who the fuck am I ? I have no published works. I am nothing, just like those who are new.

So many things in the areas of RCE are just a step or two above newbie. They come here because they want to learn. They have not been shown the way.
Many years ago when I found Fravia, I had no idea about so many things. It was only after "they taught me" did I begin to learn. I found the same things there that many people find here but, back then there seemed to be more people who were willing to give a clue or some help.

One other thing, back in the old days, it was easier to learn. We did not have to overcome the stuff they wrap software in now. There were no encryption routines to overcome. Packers ? what the hell is that.

Now there are so many protections/algos that change by the day. There is no way to keep it all current unless that is what you do. A newbie does not know how these things change from day to day. Shit, they are lucky to even know the name of half this stuff.
Most tutorials are out of date the day they are written. Most debugging software changes two/three times a year. Who can keep up with all of this ?

Here is a thought; If no one answered the first question, where would we be ? What is the premise behind a community ?
Could it be to help one another ?

You can only learn so much from books/school. There is a point where real life circumstances take hold. When you graduated from college/university, you did not know squat about RCE. You came and read and searched and asked questions. What makes you better than those who are new ?

I need your feedback on this topic.

Woodmann

Perhaps they need to ask "stupid questions" because they find references to bp messageboxa instead of bp MessageBoxA.

BWAAAAHAAHAAA!!!!

SiGiNT

Maximus:

One of the requirements of understanding how to do research and find information about reversing, is to be extremely careful about what you might be searching for. Case in point!

Your post discusses: "Of course it is easy to find, hey google for "NumberOfRVASections" -but not for "Damn the crackme won't open in Olly, %$£&£$%! "


Of course if you actually goggle for "NumberOfRVASections," you aren't going to find anything because you were probably meaning to type "NumberOfRvaAndSizes" instead. Now, if you had actually input "NumberOfRvaAndSizes" into goggle:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=NumberOfRvaAndSizes&btnG=Google+Search

The Fourth entry would have been a listing of a Code Breakers Journal entry to an article titled:

Anti Reverse Engineering Uncovered by Nicolas Brulez.
www.codebreakers-journal.com/include/ getdoc.php?id=124&article=57&mode=pdf

That article, on page 2 would have told you:

Many techniques have been used in order to slow down analysis and break reverse engineers tools:

PE Header Modifications

Many fields of the PE header were modified in order to disturb analysing tools, and thus, the Reverse Engineer. I will quickly cover the most important changes:

He referenced, specifically:

ImageBase: 0x00DE0000 <--- "Non Standard" ImageBase
LoaderFlags: 0xABDBFFDE <--- Bogus Value
NumberOfRvaAndSizes: 0xDFFFDDDE <--- Bogus Value

About these items he stated:

"The "standard" ImageBase usually is 400000 for Win32 applications and Reverse Engineers are used to analyse programs with such an ImageBase. While it isn't a protection by itself, this simple modification will confuse some Reverse Engineers, because they aren't used to such memory addresses.

"Anti" OllyDbg:

LoaderFlags and NumberOfRvaAndSizes were modified. I have Reverse Engineered OllyDBG and Soft ICE to find a few tricks that could slow down the analysis of a binary. With those two modifications, Olly will pretend that the binary isn't a good image and will eventually run the application without breaking at its entry point. This could be a bad thing if you wanted to debug a malware on your computer, because you would get infected.

Anti Soft ICE : Blue Screen of Death and no Chocolate:
The NumberOfRvaAndSizes field has been modified in order to reboot any computer running a recent version of Soft ICE. While Disassembling the PE Loader of Soft ICE, i found a very critical vulnerability in Soft ICE that allows one binary to crash any computer running Soft ICE without any code execution. This vulnerability (bug) has been reported to Compuware and should be fixed in the next version. Apparently it didn't happen on some of the authors of the submissions for some reasons. Oh well."

The Anti Reverse Engineering Uncovered article was a reversing challenge which was answered by one of our members Bilbo. You might learn a great deal by studying his response to the challenge. You may find it at:

Vol. 2, No. 2 (2005) http://www.CodeBreakers-Journal.com

It's title is: "Scan of the Month 33". Reading it might help you with future projects.

You could also have found these articles by goggling for something relatively obvious, such as "anti-olldbg" (without the quotes).

Regards,

@Sigint: if that's all you could think of, why did you even bother? But feel free to throw more mud if that makes you happy. I'll continue to lowercase and make it easy for you.

@Woodmann: I agree that the point of communities such as this one is helping eachother. That it's a common search for knowledge and the kick of cracking open some shit that bind people together here. Which is why I find it hard to see why this place should be looked upon as grammar school where all questions should be answered by the teacher no matter how meaningless they are. If somebody here answers questions, they don't do it because they have to, they do it because they choose to - nobody forces them. That's the strength of this place - and it's weakness. It'll stand only as long as people find it worth coming here and sharing knowledge. I for one haven't been around for a long time now, so I'm really not in a position to influence policy. I just think that it's meaningless that this place should serve as a school when it's obviously not. Or do you intend to grade papers, do exams, wipe noses and brush newbie teeth?
Help all those that are willing to participate and want to know and learn. They will read the faq, and start asking the right questions in no time. Ban all the idiots who want everything served on a platter. They will only, as they have always done and will always continue to do, waste your time and energy.

This is getting further away from the original post. To get back to that: if there's any valid reason for creating new boards, I'd like to know what they are. My post above still seems to me to address that. I think boards are often created not out of need but out of "Hey cracking is cool, let's make a new forum where every question can be answered." At least, if memory serves me right, the original post was a reaction to a board like that.

Fake

Dear people

As you know, we had a similar discussion at anticrack.de some time ago. I remember staring at the computer reading how people argued in favour of the two possible positions you are defending here. I have always been in the "hard" side myself and, in fact, i still firmly believe this is the way to go. From that experience, i remember i couldn't understand the problems exposed by some newbies and, even more, i couldn't believe some people did want to answer newbies, regardless of how stupid their question were. It was amazing for me. I wasted long hours defending my thoughts but this didn't lead anywhere. I didn't convince the other side and they didn't manage to change my mind. The problem was still there, awaiting for a decision.

What we did was to reach a kind of coexistence. We opened a new forum for newbies, which is moderated by Maximus, where they could ask all those questions, and we kept restrictive outside it. At first, this led to an increasing number of pointless questions, but later some of these newbies started to touch more interesting topics. Eventually, a small percentage of them will be able to reach the real stuff and, hopefully, the staff will renew and anticrack.de will be able to survive - which is not easy to achieve nowdays.

Our approach has two main advantages:

1. People in the soft position can help, as much as they want, in the newbies forum.
2. Those in favour of a restrictive policy can simply omit the newbies forum.


I don't attempt to intromise in your business or to tell you how to do your own admin stuff, but i think our experience might help you in your decisions. I like these forums as they are and i will continue logging here as long as they exist.

Regards,

*I don't attempt to intromise in your business or to tell you how to do your own admin stuff, but i think our experience might help you in your decisions.

Mind you Newbies forum is alive since Sandman's forum

They are just lazy asses which doesn't want to put more effort on searching the forum or googling.Either they get flame,thread unanwsered,deleted,or banned from here.Theres nothing you can do about it.Gawwd this topic has been discussed a thousand times...

I think it's all about choosing the level of what is a too stupid or a too lazy question, and showing people that they won't get away with that, just in the same way that pupils are reprimanded in grade school for copying other pupils' homework without understanding squat about it themselves.

I think you should always think "would I have been able to search for the answer of that question only knowing what the poster in question knows", and then act accordingly. There is a very big difference between flaming someone for the reason "he doesn't know everything I know" and flaming someone for "anyone with half a braincell and any trace amount of effort and willingness to learn could find that out themselves".

Considering people to be complete fuxoring morons through statements like 'anybody who knows enough to search for "what is a keygen" already knows what a keygen is' won't be beneficial to anyone, least of all the person in question. Not knowing what a keygen is, and hence putting the word "keygen" into a search engine is a friggin equivalence of asking "what is a keygen" to another person, and if you cannot even handle this most elementary "digital interface", you can most likely forget even being able to reverse or even use anything on a computer, so I cannot remotely understand how this would be too much to ask of someone?

So, to sum it up, it's not black and white, but too stupid questions should not be allowed in a large scale, or the place in question will either be abandoned due to uninterest or flooded with unanswered questions, both of which will lead to the same sad end result. Allowing these "over-the-line stupid" questions is the same thing as saying that "there is no need for schools or studying, since people can simply ask someone every time (and for every micro operation) they need to perform in any situation". Not very efficient or realistic.

"Are there really newbies out there that want to learn without being flamed ???" -Woodmann

Of course there are. As long as there are new lives comming into contact with the wonderful world of computer software, there will be newbies wondering how it all works. At least one or two will look at the complexity of the subject and realize that the ability to reverse engineer anything does not come quickly or easily.

If a simple Goooogle would do to answer these questions, no need would exist for this forum or any others like it.

Fravia's searchlores was the first thing I attacked as a true newbie. I can not say I am finished with even that aquisition of knowledge. I can say it has already improved my ablility to find the answers to questions already asked and answered. Incidentally for those who are having a hard time with foreign language based sites...free translation services exist. Admittedly they are far from perfect but, the general gist of the foreign language is usually enough to tell if it is worth going in any further. For Example: hxxp://www.online-translator.com

"So many things in the areas of RCE are just a step or two above newbie." - Woodmann

No kidding. With a quick search of this forum (key words "getting started" or "essential knowledge" or "tutorial" any number of replies to newbies can be found. Amidst the obligitory newbie bashing a general plan of attack for getting started has been outlined literally a hundred times.

When I joined a few weeks ago there was an essential read for posting rules.
Just a suggestion -- put a "getting started plan of attack or outline" in there.
By no means do I suggest that the average gimme,gimme, wannabe will read it. However it might provide some who already have the ability to read with a "work on this before asking obviously bad questions" list.

Without at least a feel for inter-process communication, compiler-high level language interaction, asm, and..... the newbie is going to ask bad(stupid, worth being flamed for) questions.

Speaking from personal experience attempting to run before learning to walk is unpleasant (at least it looked like it really hurt badly when I stopped suddenly at the wall in my dad's old home movies) Unfortunately, not everyone has the benefit of watching themselves repeatedly run headlong into walls on film.
Of course the application of knowledge gained by another individual to one's own life is a higher order skill as well.

I think that there are still a decent number of people willing to be a mentor to a newbie out there. I just can't blame them (after reading post after post after post....) for being selective (or even at times exasperated)in their answers.

My intent here is not to be offensive to newbie or RSEgod. But ultimately, the dumb questions will be asked, and the good questions will be considerably fewer in number. The number of inquisitive souls who perservere to understanding will be small. In the end those few will join ranks with the already established. Hopefully they will retain some small sympathy for the n00b. I am not suggesting that all n00b questions deserve an answer.(the vast majority probably don't) Just that if your patience level is low, maybe the newbie forum reading should be skipped until it builds back up again?

In the end, I believe the point behind a newbie forum is to help prevent the annoyance posting in more serious forums.... I could be wrong....It happens frequently? But I personally don't care if there are six newbie forums or one, if they keep some of the stupid questions out of the more advanced forums.

@fake51

Please take no offense I'm not slinging mud, just trying to inject a little humor - I understand your viewpoint very clearly, no one spoonfed me what I've learned, I had to go out and find it myself or just solve the problem by experimentation, the same is true of my current profession, I took no specific courses for it, I acquired my knowledge by adopting electronics as a hobby at an early age, and not knowing that I shouldn't be able to design without a formal education, I also did that, and it is also true that a structured education can be quite constraining limiiting "out of the box thinking". But I think that there are a lot of curious talented people that can be discouraged by repetitive instructions to go read tutorials that don't really apply in today's environment - and I take it back there is a book that might qualify as "assembler for Dummies", it's called "Introduction to 80X86 Assembly Language and Computer Architecture" - however recently I did an extensive search for beginners reference material for assembler and it did not show up in any of my searches. So in short I do understand your view point, I hope that you understand mine.

SiGiNT

@delta I think you took my overstating the obvious out of context, I probably should have commented that I've never seen a question that stupid.

WoooHaaaa Pg. 3

@Sigint: Well, I hope I understand what your point of view is, but I'm not entirely sure. Perhaps we differ on what makes a stupid question. Or perhaps we differ on whether we think basic questions are answered good enough around here. I'm not sure. Perhaps an example can help to explain what I think, and then you could tell me where we differ in opinion - maybe that would be easier.
For me, a typical example of what a newbie should think like is this:
1. I want to learn how to crack
2. I start searching for info on cracking. Specifically, I look for info on cracking, not for cracks or anything else
3. Eventually, I find places like this. Here, I easily find hints that at some point along the learning curve, I should learn some assembly.
4. I start thinking about: what is assembly? I google. I find references to things like masm.
5. I download masm, start looking at the info, the examples, the tutorials and the help files.

Now, doing steps 1 thru 5 seem logical to me. A question presents itself, I search for the answer. Ask me what xor does, I look in the mnemonics help file included with the masm package. Why would I go bother other people about something I could probably easily find the answer for myself? And wouldn't other people exactly be bothered by questions that I could so easily find the answers to myself?
I wonder: what talented people is it you're referring to, that are incapable of going through steps 1 to 5? Remember, I'm talking about learning the basics, not complicated reversing. But anyway, say I am I one of those, I have a really hard time at assembly, and I ask. Again, if I am curiosly talented, would I be capable of making my problem understandable? Say, instead of asking "wtf is xor?!?!" I might ask "exactly how does xor work? I can't seem to comprehend the function it performs ..." Stupid questions are stupid exactly because you should be able to answer them yourself. If you're clearly incapable of that, it's not a stupid question. And I don't think that anyone around here disagrees - and I don't think the mods yell RTFM! at people who are just having a hard time.

Arrhhhhh fuck it, I went on and ranted again. I'm sorry bout that. Anyway, I appreciate you're not throwing mud and I don't want to either.

Regards
Fake

Ahhhhhhhhh.

I think you just outlined the problem, in schools for the past couple of decades teaching was not logical and students were not taught to think logically, where I worked a couple of years ago if anybody wanted any info off the internet they always came to me, they couldn't understand why when they typed into yahoo or google exactly what they were looking for why it didn't show up - they couldn't reason that maybe not typing it as a plural might help or type in a portion, or looking for related items might help - they couldn't understand if-then-else, this is basic logic and that is what needs to be taught - and yes they want someone to tell them it's a piece of cake, (after all teenagers are very good at it), but teenagers have not learned to think in a straight line, as most adults do nowadays. I quite frankly got sick of people asking me to show them how - because a way of approaching a problem needs to be learned not shown.

IMHO a stupid question would be "what is a keygen"
a reasonable question would be "how is a keygen made"

I also think that Peter Parker is on the right track - just thinking out loud - what about giving our moderators a redirect button - leaving behind the message "your post has been redirected to ....." a site similar to the one that was announced here and unfortunately is gone, perhaps a sister site where members who are willing to deal with these sort of questions, or anybody else for that matter, could deal with them.

SiGiNT

I forgot the most important aspect of searching - what is the unique attribute your search item has.

"what about giving our moderators a redirect button - leaving behind the message "your post has been redirected to ....."" - SiGiNT

Sounds interesting....promising....do the moderators get to pick the redirect destination

That could be fun!!!!

How about www.fbi.gov? or www.bsa.org? just kidding! Hopefully a place where
the bar is set a little lower and with a little more tolerance.

SiGiNT

Howdy,

everything that gets redirected/moved can be found in the forum it belongs.
If it was a "lame" request it is deleted.

Are you all suggesting something different ??

Woodmann

What he meant was when lame questions when posted which is like crack request the server will catch the string and redirect it to some other urls.

This was suggested by neuron long time ago

Woodmann,

If you read my post, I suggested, perhaps a sister site separate from this board, similar to the one that was announced here that now is gone, the decision would have to be a human one, not keyword triggered or something of that nature, it would benefit this forum by not having to waste time redirecting people to a place that may or may not have the info there - perhaps a place where REAL beginner reference materials would be available locally - tutorials on basic logic, (in my mind the most important), and maybe how that logic is applied in assembly language routines, tut's on using basic tools of the trade in common use today, and I know I'll offend some people but not using Sice - Olly centric if you will - I could go on for a while - because I'm basically outlining a curriculum. But most important, a site were no question was deemed "too stupid" and flamed, I know I'm thinking idealistically, I see benefits for both boards - students for one and keeping the discourse at a higher level at this board - the only down side I can see is being trigger happy or offending a knowledgeable person asking a what seems to be a dumb question, because it's phrased poorly.

And like I said just thinking outloud.

SiGiNT

Hmm create another forum RCE for beginners? Not sure if its logical

How about www.google.com?

The thing is, we shouldn't have to redirect anybody anywhere. That's what the Newbie forum here is supposed to be for. As was mentioned, it's not the level of the question asked, but what it is and how it's asked.

Yes Virginia, there is a big difference between


I've always been of the mind that an honest, earnest "newbie" question should be left to be answered by whoever wants to, no matter how basic the question. If it gives the opportunity for another "newbie" to reply, perhaps gaining knowledge and confidence in doing so, then it's all for the better.

Many of us have done exactly that, by answering anothers question you usually learn in the process unless you already had the complete knowledge at your fingertips. Either way you're either learning or sharing, the whole point of this place, always has been.


The issue seems to be a real or perceived feeling of newbie flaming or otherwise discouragement. While there may be occurences, this is generally far from the case. Again, a lot of it relates back to the original poster and question.
- That's hardly surprising.

The problem is, in a lot of cases RTFM is actually the best answer one can give. Yes, you can answer the question directly, and should. But one can learn SO SO MUCH MORE by having to take the longer route of basic self research.
- That's hardly surprising.


So what kind of basic newbie questions should be redirected? Crack requests are always flamed, yes that's true. By the nature of this site and server, anything target specified is not accepted. Sure, they can be redirected to a site who doesn't care.

ASM questions? Algorithm questions? Tool questions? What color are my socks? I can't think of anything else that can't be answered here.


I know of the wish to have a site which is geared towards the new reverser, with a somewhat structured approach to learning the trade. There's nothing missing in terms of earnestness towards this goal except the wo/manpower to put it together. Instead of crying for a school, build one! The web space is not the issue, developing the content is. This cannot be done without contributions and cooperation.

Take a close look at the history of the Project forum, it was exactly geared towards newbies teaching newbies from the basics onwards. The only thing missing now are those willing to teach.

The 'bar' isn't set that high here for those with solid footsteps.

Regards,
Kayaker

Kayaker,

As always you are dead on - but my own experience was that I watched and analyzed this board for months, before venturing a post - why? Because after reading many newbie posts and the subsequent responses, I really wasn't sure what constituted a "genuine question" worthy of a civil response, what I observed going back through the history of posts and response did not yield a consistent criteria that insured that I wouldn't be belittled or look really stupid - the examples I found seemed very inconsistant - what finally got me posting was a "crackme" in the projects area that I was sure that I had solved, as it turned out my patch seemed to work but would have produced inconsistant results - but I also learned that I was not alone, more than a few of the established members also failed to solve the problem - that is the sole experience that gave me enough cofidence to harass everybody on a daily basis ,but I'm probably a lot more persistant than most would be, and yes I was reading other forums and materials at the same time, but I've always been that way - I did well in school only when challenged and I considered aquiring this knowledge a challenge, in there lies the crux of my argument - and this is only an opinion, and an observation - most of the younger people that I've worked with, (most not all), refuse to even try to master software or anything of a technical nature without "training" - I personally think "training is something that you do with a dog". It seems if the path is not already known or intuitively clear - the task is quickly abandoned. What I'm trying to say with this is I think some need to be taught how to learn on their own and that won't happen sending them to read f**king manuals, besides most manuals are for use only after you know how to use the tool and are of little help in starting out.

I'm actually appalled that this discussion is even taking place - everybody keeps saying we're nice guys and friendly to newbies when the message actually sent is quite mixed.

SiGiNT

When was the last time we had a crackme in the projects area that a newbie would even have a chance at??? I personally can't think of one - the stock answer to that is there is always crackmes.de - but that doesn't have a forum that discusses the process taken - only solutions that you read as a last resort.

Well, maybe you're right. Maybe this place has developed a stodginess that can't be easily erased.

In terms of say a basic crackme in the Project forum.. Perhaps, but take a look at the crackme suitable for all that Zairon recently posted. Not one response in 6 weeks and >70 downloads! What is the underlying problem here? Are people too scared to post in case they look too "newbie-ish? Do they need encouragement? Or do they simply not care enough to get involved? Do we need a marketing department?

There never used to be any reluctance to participating in projects. I'm still not sure if it's the essence of this place that has changed, or the nature of projects/reversing/protections/.., or whether, as you observe, many of the young 'uns are just lazy asses waiting to be guided in the proper direction.

Kayaker

I think it's because they have the idea that this place is somehow "sacred" and they don't want to post and "dirty" it. I know that many newbies have a reverent admiration for the art of reversing. They're just too shy to post, scared of being flamed by the more experienced here.

How was your first experience in visiting one of these forums and posting? I doubt it was any different from what the newbies here are experiencing today. You were probably just as scared. Remember that we were all once newbies too.

Exactly LLXX,

Anyway I think I've stated my position, time to sit down and shut up.

SiGiNT

Personally I find this board to be one of the most professional RCE boards around. I think that is one of it's major appeals. The discussions and projects that take place here are often complex and advanced. Because of that the board is populated by knowlegable and experienced members.

I don't think we can demand a forum to accommodate "newbie" reversers. But I do understand why there is the desire to. We were all beginners at one point, and because we are often still learning I still consider myself to be a novice. The nature of this hobby has kept information slightly obfuscated from the average beginner. A google for "cracking forums" returns less than desirable results and a many of the links point to useless/dead forums. After wading through pointless forums and posts, imagine stumbling upon a site like this one, where dongle questions are in the newbie forum!
Obviously it would seem as if a simple question like "how can i find serial for XXX program" would seem out of place in a forum such as this.

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with that though. Different forums I visit provide different information because of the community that populates it. But again, because this hobby is slightly underground the beginner reverser would have trouble locating another good forum that may be closer to his skill level. Do they even need to find another forum? If they put their question in an informed and intelligent structure there is a good possibility that someone will be willing to help.

I think that the structure of a question often reflects the mindset of the person asking. Where a question such as: "Can any1 crack this xxx.exe???? I cant do it. Pleeezzzz!!"
Obviously shows a lack of desire to do work themselves and a lack of desire to even present their question in an intelligent manner. This question would most likely be deleted if not flamed first.
Whereas a question such as: "I have searched around the board and cannot find an answer, I have an executable file that checks a serial to see if it is registered. I am very new to this sort of thing, and would like to find out where I would start to figure out how to bypass something like this." This sort of question would probably recieve a response like: "Check out the links at the bottom of the forum. There are many tutorials about how to crack a program."

Now even though we acknowledge that the structure of the question matters to us, and can generate a response. We need to take into account the structure of the response we are giving.

The problem with that response is the initial request of the person was indirectly how to bypass the protection on a specific program. This forum is more about providing an environment, tools, and information to help us learn rather than answering specific questions. If that makes sense.

Because of the response the poster recieved, he might post back, "well I read xxx tutorial and it did not work for my program, I couldn't find softice but I opened it up in w32dasm and nothing was displayed."

This is where the frustration begins... An effort was made to help him out but we weren't really answering his question. He was looking for a way to defeat a specific protection/program.

So a better response would be: "You may or may not be able to bypass that protection, if all you are looking for is to get a crack for that program you are at the wrong forum, sorry. However if you are looking to learn how to reverse engineer/crack programs in general then we can provide you with some great places to start learning. Check out the links at the bottom of the page here, there are a lot of tutorials to help you get started. If you get stuck feel free to ask for direction."

Hopefully I have made sense. This community can/does help beginners out, but they need to be the right kind of beginner. And a simple way to filter them out is to offer them a place to start on the long road of reversing or tell them immediately that they are at the wrong place because they are just looking for a quick fix.

Heheh, sure was! But that didn't stop me from lurking and learning, in what was at that time Fravia/Sandman's. Even got criticized on my first post, which was in the form of a contribution not a question. I guess it wasn't too earthshattering an experience though since I'm still here many years later

Whatever. This whole topic too is an old one that seems to resurface every now and then. I suppose overcoming that fear is part of the learning process as well.

I'm all for a place where anyone can feel comfortable asking a question without any sort of reprisal. In practical terms though a new board, no matter how well intentioned to be newbie-friendly, will still have to deal with the issues of crack requests, target specific code and just flat out lame posts. It can be as lenient as it wants to in those regards, but in todays environment and depending on where the server is located, it risks being shut down just as quickly by the ISP. Not a good solution for a site striving to design a quality place for learning first steps.

Not to say it can't be done. Such a 'sister' site simply needs a handful or more of energetic people willing to make the commitment to pull it from the womb and give it life with quality reference material and continued guidance. Until that occurs for real it's still wishful thinking.

Kayaker

Here's my lame two cents which of course deserve not too much attention. People landing here for the first time can be roughly split into three categories:

1) the lamer. Has found the messageboard via google while looking for crackz and serialz. He will neither read any FAQs nor care about flames he gets. He would just ask for an easy crack.

2) the impatient. Can evolve into a true learner if helped. He tipically posts hundreds of lines of asm code hoping that somebody will lend a hand. He hasn't read the FAQ because he is sure true l33ts never would in their life.

3) the learner. Has done some research on his own and asks for reasonable help. Will promptly understand when properly told. Needs love and attention even if his English can't be fully decoded.

Can we think of a system which would save this messageboard from being (easily) found by lamers? Treating the other 2 cases would be even harder.

Peres

Maybe, the anounced site that prompted this thread, was that place.

SiGiNT

Well........

This has turned into quite an impressive thread .

It seems that the majority could care less about newbies.
The newbies should read and hope they can find the information they are looking for. They should not ask any questions unless they are well thought out and precise. They should have already read all the manuals. Fuck'em if the tutorials they follow are not current or do not go into enough detail about the code or the tools.

Let me present you with this premise ;

When A 5 year old child enters kindergarten, he knows nothing. He has no idea what is before him/her. This is the reason why there is a teacher.
If every teacher just handed the students a book and said good luck, how would they know what to learn ?

Most of you are saying "tough shit, make them learn a way which was even harder for me". I understand this rational to a point.
No one wants to give away their hard earned secrets/shortcuts to certain protections but, if none of you want to teach, what shall this become ?.

I am not suggesting that anyone just give away the answers. I am endorsing an idea that is very much different from what has been the norm.

Why can't we have a place where someone with no idea about RCE can come and learn and ask questions ?

Now, before everyone gets all pissed off about this AGAIN, consider this, I was a totally ignorant newbie when I first discovered the world of RCE. I got bashed a couple of times BUT, people eventually helped me. They did not scream RTFM.
Not everyone is like me, once bashed, many disappear from this place. I do get email from them that ask's "why did they get bashed".

Think before you reply.
Since no one is going to help them, where do they go for help ?

Of course I fully support a place seperate from this forum to help newbies .

Regards, Woodmann

I've stated this before, but since it's a point of difference, I'll state it again:

To me, this is not a school, not a college, not a kindergarten. This is a community of knowledge sharing, where people share knowledge if they want to and feel that it's appreciated. Where people help if they feel that those they help appreciate it and respect the help they get and those they get it from.
So, to me, any analogy with 5-year olds is way off - a 5-year old kid has no other way to learn than being taught by other people, and mimicking them. There are no 5-year old kids here: if you come here, you have already learned enough about the internet to find this place - you must have searched for something like it, at the very least. Whoever comes here has the choice of learning by their own hand - nobody is dependent upon the help here to learn. Sure it might take longer to learn, and some might give up since they think it's too hard. That in no way touches the main principle: as witnessed by a number of posts in this thread, you can find a lot of info to learn from, if you want to learn.
That makes this place a whole lot different from public school. There are no certified teachers here, whoever chooses to give a hand around here will never get paid, and there sure as hell aint no pension fund. I find it very hard to see why anyone here should be under any sort of duty to instruct newbies in the arts. That said, i think that people should help - but there are no obligations to do so.
I just find the notion of creating a cracker kindergarten very silly - I think that people interested in the topic of this community should help eachother out. And I think they do so - look at the knowledge sharing in the more complex topics. Funny, isn't it, that we're discussing how everybody loves to bash newbies and nobody wants to help out. Maybe people like to bash newbies, but from my experience people are happy to share ideas around here.
Maybe it's just a change in attitudes that's needed. No reason to treat people with disrespect, if they're earnest. Anything beyond that I cannot see any justification for. But do as you will - I don't think the board will suffer for it.

Fake

I'm still trying to figure out why this issue is so passionate, and the opinions so polarized - it's almost political in nature, it's true that what occurs here is a sharing of knowledge, why would there even be an opinion or why would anybody oppose a fitting place to offer an introduction to this fascinating obssession with knowledge we all possess. I'd love to print out the entire contents of this thread and run it by a psychologist - even though I believe them to be quacks, it would be interesting to say the least, of course I wont do that because I'm quite sure after reading what I've posted - I'd be hauled off - wouldn't be the first time

With a gazillion web sites why would the announcement of that particular one be so controversial????

In otherwords I'd love to reverse engineer the discourse on this topic!!

SiGiNT

Well, for one, I suppose it's a question of people investing time in the community - if you feel you put some effort into making this a good place, then questions regarding the place are likely to have some effect on you.
Secondly, with regard to the original post, I think the idea was that creating "another newbie board" was totally and utterly pointless. That board served close to no purpose, if memory serves me right. Instead, forces should be concentrated on making the existing boards better.

As for some of the other topics covered: I think that stupid questions tire most people. If in the newbie section you find mostly stupid questions and crack requests, you're gonna stop reading that section. Try going to a college lecture where all the students ask the most simple questions that they should already know the answer to, and you'll soon find yourself not going to classes - it serves no purpose.
Maybe there's a deeper reason as well. Perhaps a question of respect: the people who put in an effort at this board, answering questions and giving hints, might not feel respected in any way, if newbies come here without having done any research themselves and then want to be spoonfed.
And then ofcourse: nobody wants to be used. If you get the feeling that people don't bother doing anything themselves, no reason you should bother help them. Heck, I tried mentoring a kid once, got fed up when he kept asking me questions about asm even though I gave him the answers and told him where to find info - apparently he couldn't be bothered to do a bit of reading on his own.

Fake

Well a good example of what you are talking about was my discussion with the fellow trying to reactivate a trial on a game editing prog. When I tried to tell him that this one was way over his head - his reply was essentially, no, you're overcomplicating the issue, I just want to change the start date, that MUST be simple - but, he's also an example of I want to crack this one thing then I'll go away, that is not what I've been talking to, I'm interested in people that want "the whole ball of wax" or as much of it as they can "get", and I still think a forum that addresses fundamentals we all take for granted would be appropriate.

SiGiNT

Perhaps ... I just don't see in what way ... You say "addresses fundamentals" - I still think, that if someone posts an earnest question around here about something fundamental, they will get an answer. What more do you want? A place with a heading like "Calling all dimwitted newbies"? There is already a part of this forum, as well as a part of the board at reverse-engineering.net dedicated to newbies - do they really get treated so bad here or there? Are there any fundamental questions you can't ask in either place? And if there isn't, what would be the point of more forums? If there's no need for more forums, creating new ones won't help, just the opposite.
Or do you want more tutorials on the basics of cracking?
I don't see how we can make it much easier on people.

Fake