for one crazy non-sensicle(sp?) moment, lets pretend a god exists. now where the hell did it come from!? (ha! my sense of humour laughs at the joke i just made. nevermind, you dont understand. lol) anyway, where did it come from!? it cant just make itself. im sure one of you lotr has thought about this one. i need a answer.

quote:Originally posted by nystagmus:

for one crazy non-sensicle(sp?) moment, lets pretend a god exists.

You begin with the assumption that people here don't believe in god...

quote:now where the hell did it come from!?

... and go on to ask them to defend its existence? Does this seem wrong to anyone else?

By the way, the word is "nonsensical," as in "nonsense" + "ical." Just cuz, you know, you asked.

EDIT: One of these days, I'm gonna figure out this whole UBB code thing. But not, apparently, today.

[This message has been edited by Clockwork (edited 05-03-2003).]

ok then dont answer the question.

We're human beings...we only understand beginning and ends....but God is always, maybe it's beyond our ability to understand this....but who are we to say everything has a beginning and an end?...especially when we are regarding the creator of all beginnings and ends anyway....

^ i like you.

but i still need an answer. or a good one at least

I apologize for my sarcasm earlier. I wasn't in a very good mood.

Anyway, to address your question:

Some theists might simply say that there was nothing before god simply because there was no "before god"; god has always been and will always be. They might say that our notions of "before" and "after" only exist because god made us inherently finite and limited in our view of the universe. Then again, they might not.

The truth is that this is one of those nasty theological issues that many people just prefer to leave alone, since there doesn't seem to be an explanation that satisfies everyone. To be fair, this sort of problem is not peculiar to religion; at the moment, there's a thread in the Mad Scientists forum in which the poster says that the "big bang" theory is a load of crap for precisely this reason. The very nature of scientific inquiry, though, demands that the subject be addressed, even if it doesn't seem to make any sense.

the theory of god doesnt make any sense to me either. where the hell did it come from?? how the was it created?? there couldnt have been a god from the very begining of time when the whole galaxy was first created. and if he truly exists, then how come he hasnt made his point across? he doesnt give religous people any proof that he exists and any reason to believe in him. ive heard people say "if there is a god, let him kill me right now" and nothing happened, and also i read some thing about "if someone was to prove god wrong, it would undo all of existence". im sure many peopel have proved him wrong. so...there is no such thing as god.

~peace~

PS. if there is a god, let him kill me right now.........hmm, im not dead yet

*5 mins. later*

still not dead, im right here sittin at my comp.

Because God, as most people think of him, tend to be human-like (because we'd realy like him to be), but yet all-pervasive and all that gradious crap, I tend to do away with what most common descriptions of him are, because they're contradictory. I try to think of him as being more like Brahman, only a person. He, always will be, and always has been, the existence and non-existence of totality. He's everything and nothing. He never began, was born, or anything of such. He IS. And that's it.

For understandable purposes consider God the tendency for all things to seek to fufill their law of being.

For example, right now God is my cherry coke striving to be cherry coke, my chair doing everything it can do to be a chair, my thoughts working hard to be nothing else besides my thoughts.

If you can understand that, THAT is what God is all about in a nutshell in my mind.

About God having existed forever and always will. If God can exist without a beggining or end then why can't the universe?

The term 'Eternity' goes both ways. Positive and Negative.

If God created Time and Space, he is obviously excluded from Time and Space. Therefore, the laws of time, or space, does not apply to him.

Why are people inclined to reject the idea of the eternity of god, but do not question the origin of the universe, energy, or matter?

*In best and queerest most acne-ridden virginal squeaking voice*

Where the hell do they come from anyway, losers ??!?!?!?!

Perhaps Time and Space is part of God.

Something He "is," not something He created.

Maybe He didn't create all beginnings and ends. Maybe He "is" all beginnings and ends.

Where did God come from?

Where did the Universe come from?

Perhaps they came or always existed together. Like Alan Watts' mountains and valleys. With mountains you get valleys.

They come together. Can't have one without the other.

I'm not against the idea of something being called God. But when anyone starts claiming to know His/Its/Her mind and wants...I challenge.

\/ I edit. Who the hell cares? I got my maybees in there didn't I?



[This message has been edited by MoonTalker (edited 05-10-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by The Crusader:

We're human beings...we only understand beginning and ends....but God is always, maybe it's beyond our ability to understand this....but who are we to say everything has a beginning and an end?...especially when we are regarding the creator of all beginnings and ends anyway....



Then why when people say there is no God, do people who believe in God always ask where the universe came from. If God can exist infinitly, why can't our universe?

quote:Originally posted by Iscariot2:

The term 'Eternity' goes both ways. Positive and Negative.

If God created Time and Space, he is obviously excluded from Time and Space. Therefore, the laws of time, or space, does not apply to him.

i can understand this guy. by the way, loads of people defending god say that its a he. think it through!

From my visual perception of things I never see any straight lines. Every straight line

I thought was straight seemed to be but a broken part of a bigger circle upon inspection. I haven't found a straight line anywhere, short broken lines that seem straight but try running them through eternity. Like the planets, they seem to arch, arch, arch...

We have weather cycles, plants seem to come and go in cycles, the stream of life goes in cycles (once you remove "self" from the equation), death is a non-ending cycle along with life...round and round we go circles cycling everywhere. Rain water good and clean, through earthlings use it becomes polluted, big golden sun slurps it up and spits it out clean again. Cycles.

I'm not sure about any straight line existence of Time, God, Universe, eternity,

etc. I think these things may be a non-ending circle, cycle, or loop. A loop of beginnings and endings, instead of straight line beginning and endings...if you know what I mean. This "self" concept don't seem to make it past the loop though...maybe that's not real?

http://www.boomspeed.com/dark_magneto/orazor.gif (http://www.boomspeed.com/dark_magneto/orazor.gif)

What do you me 'lets pretend God exists'? God exists!

I think the whole problem is people grasping some image in their minds and labeling it God.

The Bible is only a book written by various men at various times expressing their concept of God and what God wants. Then this becomes a question of not so much, "Is there a God," but, "Is this version of God in the Bible real?"

No, the Bible is just man's ideas of God where sheep go to heaven and goats go to hell.

Israel wanted Canaan. Isn't it a little too convenient that when Israel wanted canaan a man said God said, "Go kill all the canaanites."

When Israel wanted the Amorites land, a man said God said, "Go kill all the Amorites."

When the Religion order of Israel began to get competition from witches a priest say's,

"Kill all witches." They didn't want any competition.

In these times there was no law higher than a God's Law. So some man claims to know God.

Then he claims God talks to him and he talks to God. Wow! Nothing to do but make this man that God talks to a leader or king.

After all, he hears God. And God always is on their side in battle. How nice.

As always, as in history, the writers of the Bible put themselves in the best possible light.

If the Universe just exists, why cant god? The universe is not a cause, its an effect.

Well, we know the universe exists. It's these unseen gods many are skeptical of.

I think some "Cosmic Consciousness" or "Life Force" could well exist

and be "God." I just don't think the Hebrew

writers had any inside track. In Ezekiel God's arm reached out of heaven and grabbed

Ezekiel by his hair and held him half way between the earth and heaven and let him dangle there for awhile. Or so Ezekiel would have us believe. And this God sure sent Israel out on a lot of killing missions. "Hi God. Sure been a lot of killing done in your name. And if they still don't behave, let's send them all to hell forever. Sounds good to me God, Let's do it."

Man, you people are tied to the tracks and that stupid train just kept runnin over you.

don't you ever stop and think that just maybe "god" doesn't want you to know everything. you people dig to far when it's right under your nose.

quote:Originally posted by Jigoku:

Man, you people are tied to the tracks and that stupid train just kept runnin over you.

don't you ever stop and think that just maybe "god" doesn't want you to know everything. you people dig to far when it's right under your nose.

Yeah right, if a God does exist he gave us these brains not to use. Thats why he put everything right under your nose, so you wouldn't have to exercise your brain. Sure,

your God prefers stupid people. Excuse me while I move back over into the light.

quote:Originally posted by SEN D-F:

Then why when people say there is no God, do people who believe in God always ask where the universe came from. If God can exist infinitly, why can't our universe?



There's two groups of people. One group believe in an infinite God, the other believe in the evolution theory and the infinity of the universe.

I'm not going to pretend to know all the answers to life's great mysteries...but i believe God has the power to destroy the Universe...I believe He created it too, but no one can know for sure...so don't expect factual answers.

Quite literally, God knows why's there's a Universe, how it got there, the size, why humans exist, the meaning to this the meaning to that etc etc.

if god exists why would he make other planets with people/aliens and not mention them in the bible, koran (sic), etc.

And say we are the only people in the universe (I don't believe that), then why would god make so many other celestial bodies? Maybe it's so we would think, but i think it proves that either god was bored, or he does not exist

Maybe because it wasn't important to metion in the bible.

Or maybe because he didn't even write the bible

[This message has been edited by Beany (edited 05-14-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Metal_Demon:

if god exists why would he make other planets with people/aliens and not mention them in the bible, koran (sic), etc.

And say we are the only people in the universe (I don't believe that), then why would god make so many other celestial bodies? Maybe it's so we would think, but i think it proves that either god was bored, or he does not exist

First of all, "God was bored"?!?! that's ridiculous! the supreme being of all time and existence got bored?? then created life out of His boredom?? your problem is that you are confusing Him with a human being.

Secondly, who say's He made aliens?? the Bible says we are His only children.

How can you believe in little green men more than God? aliens are a confignemnt of imagination and fantasy contrived over the last 100 years...

I know you're going to say God is our imagination too, but the believe in God's and higher powers etc has been inherent (in our souls) since human life began...

And we know that Jesus existed, but we know next to nothing of the Universe. Yet you set your beliefs in that and aliens rather than a human belief that has existed over thousands of years...

It's a shame...

quote:Originally posted by The Crusader:

Secondly, who say's He made aliens?? the Bible says we are His only children.

How can you believe in little green men more than God? aliens are a confignemnt of imagination and fantasy contrived over the last 100 years...

I know you're going to say God is our imagination too, but the believe in God's and higher powers etc has been inherent (in our souls) since human life began...

And we know that Jesus existed, but we know next to nothing of the Universe. Yet you set your beliefs in that and aliens rather than a human belief that has existed over thousands of years...

It's a shame...

"Religion is really old" is the weakest argument ever to be spouted by a theist. Man does not "inherently believe in god", that is utter bullshit. Man inherently follows other men blindly, and that is how the whole religion thing came about. Your arguments are weak and without grounding.

And the fact that there is a ton more evidence for the possibility of aliens than the possibility of god doesn't really help it either.

Also, what is a "confignemnt"?

There is actually new founded evidence of even the neadertals beleiveing in a God/higher authority...

But let me put this into more scientific ways...

Nonbelievers believe that the Universe came into an "ordered existence" out of chaos without the assistance of any Greater Intelligence such as God but that runs contrary to the evidence. Order does not come naturally out of chaos without an intelligence behind what is happening. You can take apart your television set and leave it on the floor for a million billion years and it will never reassemble itself into a working television again - without some intelligent force putting it back together.

You lot pride yoursleves on logic but is it logical to rule out God's existence before you have searched every corner of the Universe to find Him?

quote:Originally posted by The Crusader:



You lot pride yoursleves on logic but is it logical to rule out God's existence before you have searched every corner of the Universe to find Him?

The same could be said for invisible pink unocorns or any other preposterous absurdity I arbitrarily shoot out my ass.

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

The same could be said for invisible pink unocorns or any other preposterous absurdity I arbitrarily shoot out my ass.



lol, but if people are saying God doesn't exist because it's not logical, then they first must use every logical way of 'proving' this.

Where are just the matrix to him.

I say this all the time, but people ignore it and I dont know why; the reason man consistently needs or applies religion is the reality of its fundamentals- IE, there is a God, and thats why we like religion.

If there was no God we would have no need for religion, just as there is no pressing need through history to create systems that search random houses for people to rape. Creation of such a system would be ridiculous, and would fail whenever unlikely tried, because the underlying assumption, that there is a need to be randomly raped, is false. The underlying assumption behind religion, that there is a God, Is, however, true, and this is why it consistently maintains itself in every society ever known to man.

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

The same could be said for invisible pink unocorns or any other preposterous absurdity I arbitrarily shoot out my ass.



Again with the colouful animals (I thought they were purple monkeys anyway).

Anyway, since you insist on using this argument again and again, I guess I'll have to make the same replies.

In all my life so far I've analyzed, dissected, compared, and made links to many many areas of life.

I've found that there are loads of things that point towards God existence. And what's cool is there is nothing at all that would suggest God doesn't exist (providing you have a basic understanding of what god is).

Nothing at all has ever made me ponder about your stupid animals.

quote:Originally posted by Spirit of '22:

I say this all the time, but people ignore it and I don't know why; the reason man consistently needs or applies religion is the reality of its fundamentals- IE, there is a God, and thats why we like religion.

If there was no God we would have no need for religion, just as there is no pressing need through history to create systems that search random houses for people to rape. Creation of such a system would be ridiculous, and would fail whenever unlikely tried, because the underlying assumption, that there is a need to be randomly raped, is false. The underlying assumption behind religion, that there is a God, Is, however, true, and this is why it consistently maintains itself in every society ever known to man.

So, the disagreement is this:

Spirit of retarded: God obviously exists because so many people believe in him.

Me: So many people belief in him because so many of them are idiots.



So what is more likely, an invisible man in the sky, or people being stupid? (look in the oval office for hints)

The simple fact is, no matter how many times you try, the belief of others in god is in no way evidence for the existence of god, no matter how much your retarded ass tries to twist it.

Religion capitalizes on human gullibility, Spirit. It's a great control mechanism and it is currently being used in a wide array of dommsday/alien cults and other belief systems to great avail.

L. Ron Hubbard said "Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man truly wanted to make a million dollars, he would start his own religion.", and that's precisely what Hubbard did and how he became a millionaire.

quote:Originally posted by Beany:



I've found that there are loads of things that point towards God existence.



Which god would that be?

quote:

And what's cool is there is nothing at all that would suggest God doesn't exist (providing you have a basic understanding of what god is).



"God" is completely subjective. So far, all that god has shown to be is whatever people say it is.

What is the basis for falsification to the proposition that supernatural creators, aka. "gods" exist?

In other words, if gods didn't exist, how could one show that?

quote:

Nothing at all has ever made me ponder about your stupid animals.



You reject my intangible animals that have as much corroboratoive evidence going for them as any god, and yet you accept godtheory, despite my animals being equally as plausible.

I'm seeing some fundamental bias in your reasoning here.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 05-17-2003).]

My point is, it wouldnt work to control people unless there was a preexisting reality of the spirit behind it. Trying to hypnotize people by wearing pink and whirlin in circles in the town square wouldnt work, because there is no foundation based in reality. If there was no God or invisible world, man would not be placated or controlled in its name, anymore than you could control people by promising them all a second head.

quote:Originally posted by Spirit of '22:



If there was no God or invisible world, man would not be placated or controlled in its name, anymore than you could control people by promising them all a second head.



If you promise them a second head, after they die, however, in order to keep the bullshit claim concealed and the notion maintaining exclusively in the dark (because it will be shown false in the light), then you can, and if you tried hard enough, most likely would have people believing you.

It's just not hard at all to dupe the unskeptical masses man. Governments have been doing it for centuries. Sure, many people will see it as bullshit, but you'll rope so many suckers and implement so much thoughtstopping and reason-suspending propaganda and techniques that it won't matter. They'll be so heavily indoctrinated that anything that doesn't conform to what they have been brainwashed by is false by default and will be considered no further.

Your underestimating the human capacity to believe things. People to this day still believe things that are demonstrateably false. It's like the Matrix. You get plugged in at a gullibly young age and from there on out, you don't realize anything's wrong until you really start doubting, questioning, and being equally and thouroughly critical of all claims.

Power systems only try and fool people with things that are based on a preexisting relevance and accuracy- IE, propaganda is aimed at exploiting things already present, not creating new ones. Religion did not CREATE a spiritual worldview, it only attaches itself to a preexisting one.

quote:Originally posted by Spirit of '22:

Religion did not CREATE a spiritual worldview, it only attaches itself to a preexisting one.

...Which had evolved from one original falsehood.

Impossible. It would not have evolved or worked at all if its foundations were false, let alone been one of the defining marks of EVERY civilization EVER.

quote:Originally posted by Spirit of '22:

Impossible. It would not have evolved or worked at all if its foundations were false,

Why not?

quote:Originally posted by Spirit of '22:

let alone been one of the defining marks of EVERY civilization EVER.

Bullshit. Religion may be a defining mark in many societies, but monotheism, and especially belief in "all-powerful god" certainly wasn't. It is a generally new idea.

Once again, THE BELIEF OF OTHERS IN GOD IS IN NO WAY THROUGHOUT THE UNIVERSE PROOF OF GOD.

Also, you are an idiot.

[edit: Brain typo.]

[This message has been edited by iod (edited 05-22-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Spirit of '22:

Impossible. It would not have evolved or worked at all if its foundations were false.



quote:Originally posted by iod:



Why not?



Because Spirit refuses to accept the fact that people can be decieved off of lies and conditioned to never question them.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 05-19-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Spirit of '22:

If there was no God we would have no need for religion

Actually, it's the other way around. If there was no religion we would not have a need for any god.

im nearly 100% sure that religion came first, but it could be debated, much like the old which came first, the chicken or the egg quip.

i hope that makes sense, im pretty tired

"Where did God come from?"

Unknown.

Now, where did WE come from?

Some mass a very long time ago, moved/exploded/etc. and ended up in OUR creation. But, who created that mass? Energy, but who created that energy?

X, but who created X? X2, but who created X2? X3.......

OUR creation is just as "unknown" as "God's" creation.

"Religion capitalizes on human gullibility, Spirit. It's a great control mechanism and it is currently being used in a wide array of dommsday/alien cults and other belief systems to great avail."

Not Religion, but Religious Institutions (leaders).

Example: Roman Catholic Church.

Religion is a collection of philosophies. You alone can accept those beliefs, thus accepting the religion.

Religion itself cannot "corrupt" you because you alone made the choice. On the other hand, Religious leaders and Institutions can lie/currupt/decieve etc.



"but polytheism, and especially belief in "all-powerful god" certainly wasn't. It is a generally new idea."

Polytheism is the belief in many gods. Belief which dates back to: Romans, Greeks, Native Americans, and with new discoveries, maybe even "cavemen".

I think you are referring to monotheism.

>>>>Actually, it's the other way around. If there was no religion we would not have a need for any god.<<<<

No. No artificially created "need" (If it were created it would not even be a need) would last as long and consistently. It exists and perpetuates because its foundation, that there is a god, is a true one. That this truth is manipulated by unscrupulous profiteers does not impact the truth of its foundation.

>>>> im nearly 100% sure that religion came first, but it could be debated.<<<<<

Societies without "control mechanisms" like Churches still have gods.

bitch

I think I've got it. God has to exist, because we can't explain everything yet.

Remember redundant gods that were responsible for the rising/setting sun to mist, rain, comets, planets, and other perfectly explainable events? Well they are dead now because they no longer serve a purpose. I think Westley Snipes said it best in "Demolition Man" when he said "Thank you for your efforts gentlemen, but your services will no longer be required." and then promptly dispatched those people which had outlived their usefulness.

And it's still happening today. The rate of recession of gods holding the universe together and making it operate like clockwork is directly proportional to the amount of ignorance that vanishes. The more that gets explained, the less that gets attributed to gods.

Lets just hope we don't go overboard with discoveries and off the bugger, now.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 05-22-2003).]

Science doesnt explain the why. Just how.

maybe god have given up on mankind, and taht's why ther is no sign of him on earth, maybe he's just so pissed of at this race that destroyed his creation (the planet) that he left us all to die in this godforsaken place.

No god involvement is exactly what you would get if there was no god at all.

It's a simpler explanation than a God that hides itself, doesn't do anything, and doesn't want to be detected.

hmm so god is a being, god is quantifiable, funny no one has found any physical evidence, maybe if you people stopped only believing in what you can experience of external reality and instead, try to understand yourself maybe you'd find god. It doesn't matter what anything is or being. The only thing that matters is what you are being in relation to evreything else. This is called being and to be is why we exist.

Even if there is an external reality, we have no means of percieving it or even determining what exactly it is or how it works. It's like your plugged into a Matrix that is impossible to escape. You'll never see that other reality.

Thats really not true. A lot of people who dont insisnt on measuring the gods like shekels or square feet percieve.

Others who measure G-d on DM and Bundeswehr badges.

Hey i'm half pissed and i saw an argument about god so i thought i'd put in my own little vicious thoughts about it.If u think about it god is to blame for all evil,cos god created the satan,and satan is the root of all evil.....soooooooooo god created all the evilness in the world so its all that mofo's fault....cya

Yeah, but the Judao/Christian god always creates third party members to try to scapegoat the blame on.

"I didn't fuck up and make the human design imperfect, it was all Adam & Eve's fault! They shouldn't have eaten from that tree which some snake out of nowhere tempted them into doing which gave this devil dude power over the earth as well! I didn't have a say in the matter!"

Doesn't hold up too well if you ask me. If your the origin of all, and you know everything that will occur as a result of your decision when you decide to create things in a certain way, then you are responsible for the entire chain-reaction series of events that dominoes on down the line afterward. After all, you knew everything that would happen when you chose to tip over the first in the series of dominoes before you ever set them up.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 05-24-2003).]

No he didnt. Gods all-knowing is not a million spy satellites in real-time. Its all-knowing on how to be and become God, not how much change I have in my pocket now, or if Ill drink coffee or tea with my cereal.

"Yeah, but the Judao/Christian god always creates third party members to try to scapegoat the blame on.

"I didn't fuck up and make the human design imperfect, it was all Adam & Eve's fault! They shouldn't have eaten from that tree which some snake out of nowhere tempted them into doing which gave this devil dude power over the earth as well! I didn't have a say in the matter!"

Doesn't hold up too well if you ask me. If your the origin of all, and you know everything that will occur as a result of your decision when you decide to create things in a certain way, then you are responsible for the entire chain-reaction series of events that dominoes on down the line afterward. After all, you knew everything that would happen when you chose to tip over the first in the series of dominoes before you ever set them up."

-----

1st:

I agree with you, but that does not disprove God or means that he couldn't exist. It only proves that the Jewish and Christian institution's beliefs are wrong.

2nd: "I didn't fuck up and make the human design imperfect, it was all Adam & Eve's fault!"

In the Roman Catholic view, God made humans free. Free to do what they choose. They chose to eat that apple. Thus he didn't make them "imperfect"

---------------------------------

Spirit, "all knowing" means he would know all. Not "knows basically all, except what you are going to: eat, drink, etc".

But again, that only proves (if it even does that) that the beliefs of those Institutions are wrong.

Nah, I dont think all-knowing includes that, and a self-righteous asshole of a trivial teenager who knows everything because he doesnt like his parents isnt going to convince me otherwise. Gods knowledge of everything includes the knowledge that mortals are a waste of consideration unless they prove otherwise by getting his attention.

Personally I think the entire common perception of God is flawed if one(s) does/do exist at all.

Human genders, human emotions, human anatomy, wills that reflect that of humans, primitive thinking on par with the best humans at the time the dogma was written could come up with, etc.

Abstract gods are the way to go.

"Nah, I dont think all-knowing includes that"

Well that is your belief, but the phrase "All-knowing", includes all. Thus, it includes" knowing what you think, what you're going to eat, etc.

That’s a fact. If you believe otherwise, then you are just going against the semantics of the phrase.



"and a self-righteous asshole of a trivial teenager who knows everything because he doesnt like his parents isnt going to convince me otherwise."

If that was aimed specifically at someone please make it known. If you got a bone to pick, pick it.

I dont even know everything, and Im smart enough to know that what you have in your pocket or under your bed is not worth my time.

"I don’t even know everything, and I’m smart enough to know that what you have in your pocket or under your bed is not worth my time."

It is funny how you wrote this and in the end came out with nothing. No significance, no point, no rebuttal, nothing...

You are so caught up on some religious dogma, that you fail to see that I'm not an enemy, but a friend.

My belief is the same as yours. God cannot know what I'm going to eat, where I’m going to drive to, etc. For these are ever changing choices, and I'm free to choose them.

You are so caught up in that "phrase" that you cannot admit it is wrong, THE PRASE is wrong, not your argument, not your belief, just the phrase.

Just don’t base your belief on a phrase that means the opposite of what you believe in.

Our concept of "Everything" is just different. Yours is a human and shamefully superficial, surface level literal interpration that leaves no room for esoteric meaning, and mine is wise enough to address the fact that the Wise understand there is much not worth knowing.

quote:Originally posted by Spirit of '22:

Our concept of "Everything" is just different. Yours is a human and shamefully superficial, surface level literal interpration that leaves no room for esoteric meaning, and mine is wise enough to address the fact that the Wise understand there is much not worth knowing.

Worth is relative.

Everything means "everything". The thing I have in my pocket is part of everything. You don't get to make up new meanings for words on your slightest whim.

IF GOD LOVES YOU NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO...THEN WHY WOULD HE SEND YOU TO BURN FOREVER IN HELL? WOULD YOU DO THAT TO SOMEBODY YOU LOVE? SOMEBODY THAT LOVES YOU WOULDN'T SEND YOU TO BURN FOR ETERNITY... WELL I KNOW I SURE AS HELL WOULDN'T

"Our concept of "Everything" is just different. Yours is a human and shamefully superficial, surface level literal interpration that leaves no room for esoteric meaning, and mine is wise enough to address the fact that the Wise understand there is much not worth knowing."

Oh please, dont flatter yourself.

All: The entire or total number, amount, or quantity; totality, Everything.

My concept is based on the meaning found on the dictionary. So the fact still remains that "all-knowing" includes all. If you have the belief that God cannot know what you are going to eat, etc. Then don't use that phrase.

"Yours is a human and shamefully superficial, surface level literal interpration that leaves no room for esoteric meaning"

Mine? Its based on the dictionary, you retard. Doesn't your mother use the same meaning? Then your mom is a superficial whore. Ohh dont take me wrong, my meaning of whore is: a celibate woman....

And you are one stupid mother fucker, that being: a genius, whith great abilities...

See how that works?

"IF GOD LOVES YOU NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO"

Thats a belief, not a fact. God could share the same qualities of a "Greek/Roman" God.

Even so, you could argue that it's a lesson.

Did your father or mother, ever spank you, punish you? Do they still love you?...

"No god involvement is exactly what you would get if there was no god at all.

It's a simpler explanation than a God that hides itself, doesn't do anything, and doesn't want to be detected."

i'm sorry magneto but i think that's just fucking dumb.

you do understand don't you that people have to live and die, be happy and be sad.

the problem with man is that we want everything done for us, and usually only do it ourselves when there is no other option.

why do you think the saying "if you want something done you have to do it yourself" was ever said?

because the guy got sick of waiting for others to do what he wanted.

i would resign my god-hood if i had to deal with everyone of you whiny motherfuckers bitching and moaning about all the pain you have to endure in life, doing absolutely nothing for yourselves.

that's why religion is so successful, don't you see, it's the promise that somebody else will take care of everything for you.

>>>>All: The entire or total number, amount, or quantity; totality, Everything.<<<

And is not, "Knowing there are things not worth knowing," part of "totality"?

Thats all Im going to say about this, since you think making fun of my mother is a legitimate debate tactic.

quote:Originally posted by IzzyReele:



i'm sorry magneto but i think that's just fucking dumb.



quote:

that's why religion is so successful, don't you see, it's the promise that somebody else will take care of everything for you.



Now that, my friend, is dumb.

"And is not, "Knowing there are things not worth knowing," part of "totality"?"

Not knowing something and it being "not worth knowing" are totally different things.

All knowing means he knows EVERYTHING.

If God thinks that some things are not worth knowing, is irrelevant. My argument is and always has been, that the phrase means he would know EVERYTHING. Something you seem not to grasp.

"Thats all Im going to say about this, since you think making fun of my mother is a legitimate debate tactic"

It was such a successful debate tactic that you wisely chose to shut the fuck up. Don’t you see, with that "debate tactic” I just proved that changing a word's meaning on a whim, something you did, is stupid.

You didnt prove anything except that I dont want to talk to you anymore.

"Now that, my friend, is dumb"

isn't that what i said as well?

"You didnt prove anything except that I dont want to talk to you anymore.

Spirit you are as dumb as they come.

Just admit you were wrong or just shut up, like you said you were going to do.

Could I've taken another route and not called your mother a whore?

Yes.

But calling your mother a whore is:

1. Funny and amusing.

2. Very effective at proving you wrong. You see, if you can change the meaning of "everything" on a whim, then I can change the meaning of "whore" on a whim too.

And by you getting angry at me calling your mom a whore, you just proved the fact that changing a words meaning like that is terribly moronic.

AGAIN, the fact stands:

All knowing means you know EVERYTHING.

A nazi advocating rape, murder, hate and ethnic cleansing, is in a karma where he/his opinions tend to provoke unwanted children, huge cosmic suffering, so we can assume that such a karma came from some kind of a destructive family life, either in the family cell or before that, when the mother gave herself to some wild boar, or the father fucked the mom while thinking of Eva Brown.

G-d exists. its something i know. G-d let's the unreligious ask questions here so other ppl can give you reasons. For example, some of you don't believe G-d is real, or He doesn't exist. The reason why we question is because He wants us to understand Religion. If we knew it immediately, there would be no point for life of everyone of us. That's where we would have the absence of Free Will. and G-d purposely made our minds NOT to be able to concieve how He existed before time and space. And another thing, a lot of religious ppl think if you don't obey G-d, you'll be sent to an eternal inferno. But no, he gave us free will. So if you die not believing there is a devil or G-d, it will be nothing but eternal blackness. (Just my 2 cents) Hell is death. In other words there is no burning because your dead, body and soul. Heaven is life after your body dies.

quote:Originally posted by Renato Vieira:

maybe god have given up on mankind, and taht's why ther is no sign of him on earth, maybe he's just so pissed of at this race that destroyed his creation (the planet) that he left us all to die in this godforsaken place.

no. if He stayed on earth, we would have taken Him for granted. one reason i know He exists is because when i ask Him to help me with something through my prayers, it works. I used to be like some of you, the normal "G-d wouldn't do this because..." type of ppl. It's just that you have to use faith. He gives everyone chances. He gave me one, i used that chance to change my way around, and it works. For me it was strange tho, all of a sudden i saw truth, and i knew He exists. But thats just me.

quote:Originally posted by nystagmus:

for one crazy non-sensicle(sp?) moment, lets pretend a god exists. now where the hell did it come from!? (ha! my sense of humour laughs at the joke i just made. nevermind, you dont understand. lol) anyway, where did it come from!? it cant just make itself. im sure one of you lotr has thought about this one. i need a answer.

One modern scientific theory uses maths to explain that all matter is composed of negatives and positives interacting in a constantly changing flux. This interaction produces electrical activity, that in effect forms pathways -- like a brain.

(In math zero is a theoretical concept that in fact does not exist. It cannot be said that zero exists, no place can be found where there is nothing. It sounds absurd to say that zero exists, other than as theory, therefore the very existence of the universe proves existence is the imperative.)

Seems just as likely that the universe is 'god'.

"God is Consciousness that pervades the entire universe of the living and the non-living."

-Ramakrishna

"It is both near and far, both within and without every creature; it moves and is unmoving. In its subtlety it is beyond comprehension. It is invisible, yet appears divided in separate creatures. Know it to be the creator, the preserver, and the destroyer.

Dwelling in every heart, it is beyond darkness. It is called the light of the lights, the object and goal of knowledge, and knowledge itself."-Bhagavad Gita 13:15-17



"THE ALL (which is the Substantial Reality underlying all the outward manifestations and appearances which we know under the terms of "The Material Universe"; the "Phenomena of Life"; "Matter"; "Energy"; and, in short, all that is apparent to our material senses) is SPIRIT which in itself is UNKNOWABLE and UNDEFINABLE, but which may be considered and thought of as AN UNIVERSAL, INFINITE, LIVING MIND.

"THE ALL IS MIND; THE UNIVERSE IS MENTAL."--THE KYBALION.



God is Spirit

-Gospel of John

Question if we are ALL gods children what makes Jesus so special!?

Jesus is God.

God is the Farther, another of the Son and another of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the Son but really we worship in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity.

I met the father in law. kewlest guy. He doesn't believe in the family as being holy, though. Well, no family can believe their well-known members are holy, it's so human.

Anyway, the roman soldier that got 'virgin' Mary impregnated, in pure italian genius told her the immaculate conception scam to escape stoning.

God's father in law (and brother in law at the same time if you look at it with orthodoxy, since the son and the father are one), the roman soldier, you can deduct knew poor Joseph and his gullibility. He was sure that the miracle would take place: an incredible story would be accepted by a potential bridegroom, then pregnant bride Mary would be saved. Actually she was the first to be saved by belief in Jesus' story.

God, how did I ever believe such stuff? Will you forgive me? I promise, I was brainwashed, I didn't really do the math.

Now God, please tell me why you let people with stupid power trips manipulate the masses in your name.

For the same reason he hasnt already stopped your heart. Neither are important enough to matter to him.

quote:Originally posted by BroodLord:

Question if we are ALL gods children what makes Jesus so special!?

IMHO Jesus/Iesous/Yahshua/YHSVH/Yeshua/Yehoshua made it clear to those who would condemn him for claiming to be the son of god that we are all gods. Yahshua's message may be obscured by two thousand years of religious traditions, however for those prepared to exercise their own minds it is apparent that when the jews were ready to stone him for claiming title as son of god, his defence was that their very own scriptures say "Ye are Gods" (Psalm 82:6

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High).

What's special about Jesus/Yahshua?

"the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus" John 1:17

Interesting to see 'grace' and 'truth' contrasted to 'the law' when the majority of religions seem to preach laws/rules.

and:

John1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name"

His name and it's meaning has fallen into obscurity due to it's now common usage as Jesus - a name that is significant and precious to many but does not convey the original meaning.

Concise Collins Dictionary:

Jesus - originally via Latin from the Greek Iesous, from Hebrew - Yeshua, shortened from Yehoshua, meaning God is Help.

god: "1. a supernatural being, who is worshipped as the controller of some part of the universe or some aspect of life in the world -- or -- is the personification of some force."

Jesus name can be cognised as identifying this 'god' power or force as being 'help'. So "to those who believe in the power of His name" .. "to those who believe in 'god' or the supreme 'power' of the universe being that of 'help', is given the right to become the children of god. This is an inherent right, granted only in it's recognition, for all people have it within their power, to accept, refuse, harness, and give the power of 'help', for themselves and, to others.

[This message has been edited by redzed (edited 06-01-2003).]

read this. it is amazimg.

http://tbd.yi.org/Gd/