How many time have i heard people saying that athists can't be moral because they don't have a god.

but look at it this way would all the believers out there go round murdering and killing if it wasn't for fear of their god? thats a scary thought. I think morality is instinctive, only greed and fear has brought about immorality.

why do athists have morals, because they don't have any reason to do immoral things, because they think about the practical consequenses of what they do, because they believe in themselves and others as equals

Morals are a judgement by each person as to what they believe is right. Everybody has morals. These morals can be different or very loose but they are still morals. Hitler had morals; they just happened to be very different from the coventional values of societies. I don't agree with them either but he veiwed what he did as right.

we're not gonna get into definitions here re we.

by morals I mean ideas which are universally accepted to not harm anyone else with ideas physically or mental.

that limits the discussion quite a bit

quote:Originally posted by dr_rock:

we're not gonna get into definitions here re we.

by morals I mean ideas which are universally accepted to not harm anyone else with ideas physically or mental.

Since when has there been any universal idea not to harm others? I'll agree that Christians and Muslims (who've actually read their sacred texts), Jainists, those annoying witches who've twisted Thelema into a hiddeous train wreck and call themselves "Wiccans" (do any of them actually know anything about the roots of their religion--either actual, or the "old religion" they claim it was decended from), and several other religions have this view. But, there are a great deal of other religions that this moral idea does not in any way belong to.

Judaism (and its offshoots) has some mindless commandment like, "thou shalt not kill," or some shit like that, but doesn't go into any detail...and YHVH seems to be quite fond of murder, strife, etc., and commands His followers to do the same on quite a few occations. Shinto, Ifa-fa, Vodou, many Native American relgions, Norse, Hellenic, Roman and many other reliqions lack this "universal" moral. (You do realize that "universal" means everybody, right?)

Aaaahhhh, what the fuck was the question?

[This message has been edited by NChSh (edited 06-30-2003).]

I tend to agree with NchSh. Religious schools of thought seem to be filled with wrongdoing in their texts , and religions have some sort of god or deity. Atheists are guilty of wrongdoing.

What exactly do you mean dr_rock?

Are you just trying to say that atheists are human and they don't worship a god? The fear of god is not present to influence their decisions and actions? Do you suppose that "people who claim religious faith" are even thinking of god when they sin?

I'm inclined to believe co-operational behavioral traits (conscience, etc.) are evolutionary traits that go hand-in-hand with the effective (originally) tribal social structure.

Religion became part of the tribal culture, and when religion was formally institutionalised, morality was thrown in too.

quote:Originally posted by dr_rock:

we're not gonna get into definitions here re we.

by morals I mean ideas which are universally accepted to not harm anyone else with ideas physically or mental.

You must have a very limited view of the world--there are NO ideas which are universally accepted.

Morals are basically rules. You can have millions, or several, or ten, or one. Can you have none? No, because if you had none, it would still be one, and it would be that you have no rules. You can't make that last rule go away.

What would be the consequences of having only one?

I believe we adopt our morals in childhood through "which mother messages". The verbal and nonverbal messages given to us by parents and other adults that impact our personality. What we adopt and keep or change is always subject to revision.

I believe morals are learned, and I don't think religion is necessarily the driving force.

Just my opinion.