Totse being so big and its members so many, there will probably be some Grand Master around to answer some questions if he sees fit.

I have been doing some research about freemasonry, and as it has always seemed to me that its members were amongst the brightest people that I knew, I would like to know more about it.

How did you know they were masons, you may ask? (They are quite secretive people in France) Well, two of them told me so (Good friend : apprentice, quit; teacher: companion) and I think I feel a pattern in their charismas, enabling me to recognize them.

One question for now :

I respect your secrecy, you probably have good reasons to maintain it, but I would like, if possible to know, what happens in a Masonic meeting. The reason for this is that I feel (Not rationally but rather because the Masonic resources are generally pointers to books and articles) that the freemasons like the Buddhists in some ways have an objective of personal evolution, of reaching some kind of wisdom. Now Unfortunately, I have found neither a person nor an information to answer this, but I like the idea of a brotherhood dedicated to help you in your spiritual/personal evolution.

Excuse my mistakes as English is not my main language.

Ysilk

although it is no answer to your question,..there is no need for you to appologize about your english, you use the language better than most americans (it kills me to see my "peers" butcher our language)

http://www.freemasonry.org/

Ysilk, what's up monsieur le shintok? Well freemasonry is a cool thing, I almost joined a lodge in Israel, but I had to leave the country for medical treatment so I couldn't yet join the

craft.

According to what my would-be sponsors told me, the meetings have some ritual, but nothing very formal, and it goes pretty easy, one shouldn't await any big revelation, or stuff really extreme in any way.

Actually, I personally believe the essence of spirituality is to live a good life, good for you and good for the world. Now, among masons there are certainly brothers whose main interest is theology/metaphysics, and they certainly do some extensive research, but it doesn't mean that one should join it for mystical purposes. It is a brotherhood of people with heads on the shoulders, who know how to think and yet yearn to learn more, very simply. It is not always the brightest stone that is the most precious.

i dont know about the meetings part, but i know to join you have to get on your knees and repeat "I worship you worshipful master, I worship you worshipful master" Thats pretty fucked up if you ask me, because the worshipful master is like the highest person in each lodge.

Thank you for the compliment, sir bent_redeemer http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

To UrbnTbone, lol JE NE SUIS PAS CHINTOK http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif))

Still I have no answer, what happens in the meetings? Do we stand all together meditating over the Great Architect? Do we find practical ways of climbing the social ladder? Or do we reflect and debate over some subjects brought by the master?

Probably a bit of it all...

Anyways, UrbnTbone, what do you do in life if I may ask? And why did you want to join the freemasons?

quote:Originally posted by Ysilk:

To UrbnTbone, lol JE NE SUIS PAS CHINTOK. Tu vis chez eux, ça suffit pour te disqualifier. Merde, on est pas des gonzesses! ~~~~~Jean-Marie LongPlay quote: Still I have no answer, what happens in the meetings? Do we stand all together meditating over the Great Architect? Do we find practical ways of climbing the social ladder? Or do we reflect and debate over some subjects brought by the master?

Probably a bit of it all...

Anyways, UrbnTbone, what do you do in life if I may ask? And why did you want to join the freemasons? Hey man, I don't know what they do in the meetings, but if you're looking for people ascending the social ladder, forget it.

It's about a kind of social/philosophical club I think, well in fact you're french, so I guess french masonry has more opportunists.

From what I know of the English 'blue lodge', it is much more of a sane environment with people genuinely interested about, you know, considering the human individual as a potential Temple and gathering in that kind of a confrery where every stone gets cut so it can reach a better moral value and eventually some brothers go so much deeper into the allegory, that it can also become a mystical path for those elected to go deeper and deeper and withstand life's trials without compromising their inner truth. Yet it is not a religion, every religion is tolerated, even encouraged provided it is is kept with a tolerant approach.

But what I know is what I gathered from books, and I respect masonry too much to risk being misleading. So all I can tell you is, if you're clean in your heart, it is the right thig to do. But as any human activity, don't expect the perfect world. There are crooks in any human field, and overthere they are more dangerous since the overall aim of the fraternity is so lofty. I could compare a bit withwhat I know of the Jews, by personal experience this time: they can be the best people litterally, but among them you may find the worst as well. You know, take a look at a Rembrandt, you will find light as much as darkness, and depending on what your inner nature is, you will eventually cleave to it.

How do you say in chemistry: Catalyseur?

One thing is for sure: with so many stupid people against it without even knowing the first piece of real representative data(look at that 'worzshipful master' post...), it's got to be interesting! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Interesting indeed...

Masonry is just a fraternity for old men who want to bettter themselves by doing charity work and what not. I m in a masonic sponsored organization (DeMolay) and I meet alot of Masons. They are generally very nice people and pretty open.

The theological dogma of Freemasonry was explained in the"Instructions" issued by Albert Pike on July 14, 1889 to the twenty three supreme councils of the world.

an it goes somethin like this:

If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay (the God of the Christians) whose deeds prove his cruelty, perfidy and hatred of man and repulsion for science, would Adonay and his priests, caluminate him?

(caluminate=slander)

and a bunch more.....

Read, En Route to Global Occupation by Gary Kah

All Masons are not aware of the hidden agenda of Freemasonry, and they are just joinging the local mens club.

The ideas, symbols and organization itself is diabolical evil, in my opinion, that is.

They worship their "Grand Master" or "Gray Poupon".

[This message has been edited by crunked (edited 06-21-2003).]

^^^^^One example of stupidity that says longer than the best defense of free masonry: if the bigot, the paranoid and the integrist new agers hate it so much, there's got to be something good into it.

BTW I need to say, I wouldn't join now, it would take too much self-refinement; I still like to use bad words and make fun of everything. To be a mason I believe you must be serious, committed and ready for some self-sacrifice and excellency. Well Mozart was one.

His "queen of the night" seems to still be around, it seems^^^^^ and ignorant agressions are still common.

quote:Originally posted by crunked:

The theological dogma of Freemasonry was explained in the"Instructions" issued by Albert Pike on July 14, 1889 to the twenty three supreme councils of the world.

an it goes somethin like this:

If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay (the God of the Christians) whose deeds prove his cruelty, perfidy and hatred of man and repulsion for science, would Adonay and his priests, caluminate him?

(caluminate=slander)

and a bunch more.....

Read, En Route to Global Occupation by Gary Kah

All Masons are not aware of the hidden agenda of Freemasonry, and they are just joinging the local mens club.

The ideas, symbols and organization itself is diabolical evil, in my opinion, that is.

They worship their "Grand Master" or "Gray Poupon".

[This message has been edited by crunked (edited 06-21-2003).]

Well where to start.

Pike has been for years used to extract a phrase to cause a damning of Masonry. If I did this with the Bible, which I can, pull up a sentance which turns the whole thing on its head. You would cry foul. So read all of Pikes book not just a sentance or two. He was an individual and has been dead a long time now. Try and find somone who is alive.

I won't go into the light bearer argument, nobody wins that one.

Lets look at this all Masons are so stupid they do not know what they are doing.

So we are to accept that this good God fearing man. Works hard all his life . Brings up his kids. Helps bring up his Grand Kids. He then gets promoted through the ranksof Masonry. Going to Church all the time. He then gets a letter, says , Hey guy you have been selected to be a 33rd Degree Mason. The only problem is you now have to worship Lucifer.

And the Guy says " Oh , thats OK I was getting fed up with God anyway. I can leave the Kids , leave the wife , leave evrything I have spent a lifetime biulding and I will come over to Lufifer"

Get real pal.



[This message has been edited by Bill McElligott (edited 06-24-2003).]

Just to prove my point about taking some phrase or sentance.

Albert Pike :-

page 597 of "Morals & Dogma”

For ever, In all the nations, ascending to the remotest antiquity… we find, seated above all gods… a still higher Deity, silent, undefined, incomprehensible, the Supreme, one God, from Whom all the rest flow or emanate, or by Him are created.

Speak kindly to your erring brother! God pities him; Christ has died for him; Providence waits for him; Heaven’s mercy yearns toward him; and Heaven’s spirits are ready to welcome him back with joy. (Morals & Dogma p.134)

Masonry does not pretend to be a religion; but it is not irreligious or irreverent. It does not assume to take the place of any religion, or claim to make religion unnecessary. To charge it with this is to libel it. It requires its initiates to believe in one God and a Divine Providence, and that the soul survives the dissolution of the body. Thus it teaches those great primary truths on which all religion must repose; and it inculcates those principles of pure morality which have commended themselves to the good and wise of all ages." (pike – Ritual for the Reception of a Louveteau p.14)

quote:Originally posted by Bill McElligott:

The only problem is you now have to worship Lucifer.

Well Didn's Jesus himself supposedly say "whoever isn't against me is with me"? But the fanatics can't take it, whoever is not a fanatical bigot, is in their poor feeble mind, doomed 'satan worshipper'.

BTW the original satan, the hebrew word doesn't mean a rebellious angel. Nobody can ever rebel against the 'king of kings'. It takes some brainwash to admit that almighty creator would be unable to rule his legions. So what is it? Just a legion with the special mission of crossing (Heb.: 'satan') human way in order to test their sincere commitment. Actually a healthy 5 year old child would get this: no angel can be 'against God'. But still there is some satans, and if you know their purpose you don't worship them, you just acknowledge their existence and keep yours from crossing their ways so they won't cross yours.

But hey, does a basic mason-basher have more of a brain than a 5 year old child? Anyway, dust to dust...

Hi all,

Unlike Bill, I don't mind tackling the Lucifer bit. It seems there was one single place, in Isaiah 14, where the word came into mistaken interpretation. It actually does not appeat there at all. The word that is used, if the translation correctly reflects it, will be "daystar" or "son of the morning" or something similar.

It was a reference to King Nebuchadnezzar, but because of poetic use (Milton's Paradise Lost, or Dante's Inferno, I forget which), it has since then become associated with the legend that Satan had at one time been the brightest of the angels (Lucifer actually means "light-bearer" or "light-bringer"). This supposed story is actually myth, although in Revelation, chapter 12, it speaks of Satan being cast out of heaven into the earth. Jesus said, "I beheld Satan fall like lightning from heaven." The former position in heaven is not what I cast doubt upon from a biblical interpretation standpoint, it is the extra details of being "the brightest angel," "Lucifer" therefore being his name, etc.

Isaiah 14:12 probably has no bearing on Christ or Satan either one. The literal meaning is "Day Star," a word that the NRSV uses without footnote at all. It is a derivative of the Hebrew word "helel," or "shining one." In Canaanite mythology, there was a story of the "revolt in heaven," and the morning star helel (who some say is Ishtar) attempted an overthrow which failed, causing a loss in status. The Old Testament uses allusions like this one in several other places, and always does so without attributing any reality to the characters mentioned. These references are always used to illustrate a truth with similar patterns or overtones, much in the same way a preacher in our time pulls in familiar references from poetry, novels, movies, etc., to illustrate a point by comparison.

Those who suggest this refers to Ishtar make the assumption it came down to Israel through Phoenician influence. But there is a story in Ugaritic texts that it refers to Helel ben Shachar, one of two children born to a woman seduced by the god El (Hebrew "sahar" refers to "dawn"). He was supposed to be a god, but rebelled against El and was reduced to human stature and became a historic figure.

These are only a couple of several stories with the "revolt from heaven" theme. Because of the similarity of the names, these are considered the two most likely references.

The Life Application Study Bible (also NIV) has "morning star" and no mention of Lucifer. However, they do mention some of the history of interpretation.

The passage does not likely refer to Satan at all. The comparison is one that would have been easy to draw in parallel with Revelation 12, where Satan is "cast down"; but the analogy breaks down when you consider that this character is cast down to Sheol, and is done away with, while Satan is cast down, but his rebellion continues. Another more likely interpretation is that it makes no reference to anything other than what it says, the morning star, which would melt away in the morning light.

Lucifer, by the way, or "light-bearer," comes to us by way of the Vulgate.

I can't really be of too much help here, but I would recommend checking out the book "Born in Blood" by John J. Robinson. It's easily the best book I've read on the subject and hopefully it will answer some of your questions.

Excuse my english if there are any errors as it is not my first language.

I am a son of a Mason so I believe what I have to say has bearing to the matter. Freemasonry is an ancient fraternal society whose origins are sketchy at best. On my readings, I have encountered a few authors claiming Freemasonry to have links to the Knights Templar, The Christ, To Egypt, and to the Druids please regard such writings with a grain of salt, they are more theory than truth. Perhaps there is some veracity to what these authors claim, perhaps not, with all things judgement should be applied. There are a number of books available in the market that can give a detailed account on the origins of the society, so for those interested in the society’s origins perhaps I can point to you a few books written on the subject:

The Temple and The Lodge

Born in Blood

The Hiram Key

The Templar Revelation

The Messianic Legacy

Or just find the freemasonry web page

I do not understand why such controversy has arisen towards freemasonry. In the Philippines, my mother country, various masons in our history have been celebrated as heroes and national artists. It is a society of like-minded individuals who enjoy in each other’s company and espouse the idea of self-improvement in all its forms, nothing more. They believe in the principles of democracy, equality and the ideas of reason and temperance. They also believe in Patriotism and their rituals teach moral lessons in the form of metaphors and allegories. They believe in the right of each person to believe in a faith of his choosing (something the Church does not look kindly upon).

A few of their practices:

Worshipful Master – It is an archaic way of saying Mr. President

Blue Lodge – Equivalent to a local chapter I believe.

Grand Lodge – A lodge governing a number of blue lodges. It is similar to a central governing body or a headquarters of sorts. The common practice is for a grand lodge to govern all blue lodges within a country (if it is relatively small or if the system is not federal), or a state within the country, or a region.

If you wish to join the fraternity one must ask. Masons do not recruit members.

If you are in need, ask and you shall receive

You will always have a friend anywhere in the world especially if you are related to a mason or you are friends with one.

If you wish to join b sure that you are in the age of majority and that you can support yourself financially (monthly membership and for projects like free hospitals require funding)

I hope this can shed some light into Freemasonry. I hope to join myself one day as soon as I feel that I am both worthy and able to join the fraternity as what my father and forefathers have done so.

Please do not look harshly upon the masons. All they seek is knowledge and tolerance among all people.

Someone was wondering what happens during meetings so I think I could do a bit of explaining here. Perhaps the DeMolay can explain this better.

In a meeting, there is an opening ritual, then the members talk of whatever issues and lodge business is the most pressing. These issues are usually about this or that project, this orphanage or whatever institution the particular lodge sponsors. On occassions they talk of revising certain ground rules or part of their lodge charter. (im not sure on this but I know for certain that each lodge acts as an independent which has though is governed to some extent by the grand lodge and each grand lodge is independent of each other)

Masons usually do not talk of politics and religion as these two subjects are divisive and may disrupt the fellowship of the members. There would be times that the subjects are touched but these are approached in an academic or scholarly manner or in a manner that is not confrontational.

If you to see a masonic meeting of sorts, contact a lodge nearest you and find out when the next installation of officers will occur. These are open to the public you will be able to see some of their rituals and see the masons in their regalia.

The only thing that masons are secretive of are their rituals and their methods of indentifying one another, usually in the form of a secret handshake so it is not proper to label them as a secret society. What kind of secret society posts their meetings on newspapers, the internet, and has meeting place in plain sight.

Freemasonry is not a religion and most definitely does not worship satan, baphomet, or whatever demon you can think of.







[This message has been edited by BlueEagle (edited 06-26-2003).]

Please place $3125.00 US (plus handling) in a cigar box and bury it your backyard. One of our underground agents will be contacting you shortly.

Blue Eagle

Nice to hear Masonry is alive and well in the Philipines.



Kiafi,

I have placed a container with $ 3,125.00 in cash in my backyard. All you have to do now is find the backyard.

All

It is suggested by the Anti Masonic brigade that all Masons when they arrive at the 33rd. degree commence the worship of Satan. I have challenged all the Anti Masons I have fallen over to come up with any evidence that supports this claim. They can get their hands on all the other documentation for all the ritual and all the Books of constitution. All the instructions on ritual printed by the various GL’s. They have, in some cases, pretended to be Masons and managed to get into a Masonic meeting.

When it comes to supplying proof of this devil worship they rely on one quote from Pike out of thousands of quotes the man made. That’s it.

quote:Originally posted by BlueEagle:

Someone was wondering what happens during meetings so I think I could do a bit of explaining here. Perhaps the DeMolay can explain this better.

In a meeting, there is an opening ritual, then the members talk of whatever issues and lodge business is the most pressing. These issues are usually about this or that project, this orphanage or whatever institution the particular lodge sponsors. On occassions they talk of revising certain ground rules or part of their lodge charter. (im not sure on this but I know for certain that each lodge acts as an independent which has though is governed to some extent by the grand lodge and each grand lodge is independent of each other)

Masons usually do not talk of politics and religion as these two subjects are divisive and may disrupt the fellowship of the members. There would be times that the subjects are touched but these are approached in an academic or scholarly manner or in a manner that is not confrontational.

If you to see a masonic meeting of sorts, contact a lodge nearest you and find out when the next installation of officers will occur. These are open to the public you will be able to see some of their rituals and see the masons in their regalia.

The only thing that masons are secretive of are their rituals and their methods of indentifying one another, usually in the form of a secret handshake so it is not proper to label them as a secret society. What kind of secret society posts their meetings on newspapers, the internet, and has meeting place in plain sight.

Freemasonry is not a religion and most definitely does not worship satan, baphomet, or whatever demon you can think of.





[This message has been edited by BlueEagle (edited 06-26-2003).]

^^^^In our meetings we have the Holy Bible, United States Flag, and school books all of which symbolize religious freedom, civil freedom and intellectual freedom, respectively. We point out that these institutions must be kept seperate for true freedom. When dealing with the Holy Bible, we never read from it, but acknowledge that it symbolizes universal brotherhood in the name of God.

As for Masons, I like some of them but most of them are really annoying because they go and smoke in our pool room in our temple before their meetings. They hardly ever donate money or try to help our chapter grow. They dont realize that if there are a large amount of DeMolays there is a large potential for Masonic Membership after a few years. I hope you Masons help your DeMolay chapters if you have them, and if you dont start one up.

I would like to hear more Onasis.

Perhaps you would send me a mail it would seem a bit un interesting to the other readers, but I am interested.

its funny how some people can come up with the weirdest allegations against masonry...

masonry is really a place for socials. There were some parts in their rituals that at some point in time had greater purpose than the transmitting of allegory and morality particularly the scottish rite masonic rituals.

a mason could explain this better but from what I know the society use to transmit their rituals orally, they had no written records. At some point this all changed, not sure when.

It is said that Pike made a lot contributions and changes in the rituals. From what I understand, Pike made masonry accessible to a greater spectrum of people at the cost of some traditions and rituals. It has been noted that after pike's alterations, many of the scottish rite rituals, in the degrees i think, had either been ommitted or so thoroughly altered that it would be difficult to find traces of the original ritual.

The reasons for these alterations were that the rituals had very strong christian roots and for some reason or another Pike thought to sever some ties to the past...

I cant really remember all the details as I read it from a book three years ago.

I think the 'Hiram key' goes deeper into that.

1717 was the foundation of some order, which followed some war between England and scotland in which the scottish had to surrender their originality in FM to the English obedience. In the process many degrees were lost. That is about the thesis that the authors defend. They also say the templar treasury, and maybe the grail are buried under the famous Roslyn 'masonic designed' chapel. Google these parameters:

chapel + freemasonry + hiram key