i believe in jesus, but not god. i think jesus was just trying to get people to believe in god, so they would have something to fear all their lives. if people lived in fear of doing bad because of judgment day (which is a point in time that will never be reached), then they would have to be good, and i think jesus just wanted people to get along and do good. by including a god (supernatural, omnipresent, creator), you can fool people by saying god can do anything and can make anything happen. this is why many religions are similar, because the people who started it learned from the previous guy, and knew it could get more popular. also, why the fuck would god bother to make us, then if we believe in him, we go to heaven, and if we ignore him, we go to hell. what the fuck is the point. why did he give us choice? i think god (if god exists) takes sick pleasure in creating something and let it determine whether it lives forever in pain or pleasure. fuck that asshole, i hope he is happy. god is a whiny nerd with a squeaky voice that wants to get back on the people who caused him so much hell. god is no god, if he even exists. it all seems bullshit, don't live your life after a lie. do what you want and enjoy yourself, but try not to fuck over someone or it will come back on you. i put faith in karma, not god.

Excuse me while my karma just runs over your dogma.

You are overlooking the fact that the bible is mostly bs. There is no hell, that is another myth concocted by the priesthood to control the masses.

My god is all about love and creating, not judging or punishing.

I'm getting pretty sick of people whining about "if God exists why would he judge us and send us to hell forever? That's unfair, therefore he doesn't exist! OMG I FIGURED OUT THE TRUTH!"

Did you ever stop and think... hmm, maybe he exists but DOESN'T do what everyone says he does? Just *maybe* some people interpretted God in the way they wanted to, for their personal benefits? You can't believe everything everyone says. A design like this implies a designer, not some psychotic fuck that gets a kick out of putting people through pain only to have them suffer for eternity when they die. If God were judgemental as Christians and Catholics think, then human existence would be pretty much pointless. Who would want to live only to end up in a pool of fire forever? Fuck that, that God doesn't get my love.

I'd flip the bird to the Christian God and accept the God of the Near Death Experiences in a split-second. It's the same God though, just different interpretations. Seems the religious can't move beyond anything that was written 2000 years ago.



Word of advice, atheist: Before you claim atheism because of the christian beliefs, and because obviously that's the only belief of God you seem to know about, why dont you do a bit more research on stuff you dont hear about on the news every night, and from friends and relatives. There's more out there than meets the eye. Nothing wrong with being athiest though, it's cool and all... just don't accept christianity as the definition of God... I hate when people do that so much.

Goddamnit http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

athiest is not just anti-christianity. about the bible, if it isn't true, then why should i believe anything in it. if the book about a religion is false, how can i believe any of it. buddhism makes sense, christianity doesn't. oh yeah, i know that other religions believe in god, like the rastafarians. assumptions are always wrong. i guess that means it is wrong to assume. fuck you.

quote:Originally posted by weed man:

buddhism makes sense, christianity doesn't.



How does buddhism make sense? Buddha preached an escape from the cycle of rebirth to nirvana, a place of non-existence, the uncreated. Now where does that exist? How does that make sense? And buddha also said that there is no eternal self that reincarnates, only karma carries on, so you and i and every other, all cop the karma of some other person who came before us, they were not you or i in any sense of self, but we cop their karma! How does that make sense?

it doesn't.

but it's different than christianity which is it's only real appeal, i think.

"athiest is not just anti-christianity. about the bible, if it isn't true, then why should i believe anything in it."

childhood's end by arthur c. clarke is not true in any way.

by your definition then the planet earth should not exist.

[This message has been edited by IzzyReele (edited 06-16-2003).]

God damnit, You cannot prove God exists and you can't prove that he doesn't, you might be able to contradict what the church says he is, but you will never be able to prove or disprove that he exists, so I suggest you should take the benefit of the doubt, By the way, I don't believe things in the bible actually happened, except maybe a few, but I have a feeling God exists, things that cannot be explained or haven't yet been explained by Science, therefore I look to God, I mean isn't more comforting to know that someone always loves you and he will always forgive you and that there is a life after this one? I do. I really believe in Self manifested worlds, meaning that If you believe your God will save you, if you truly believe in it, it is true, but if you don't and you believe there isn't a God, than it won't, My theory hasn't been completely bugged out, and it probably never will, but this is about as close as I can get to making sense. By the way, all you people who try to test "God" you must realize that in most religions it says "Don't test God, he will not reveal himself because you don't believe in him/her"

quote:Originally posted by Hammer&Sickle:

By the way, all you people who try to test "God" you must realize that in most religions it says "Don't test God...

It's because that which you can test is capable of falsification. If you can;t test something, you can't form a logical conclusion about it. hence the term, "Don't test God".

dude... atheism isn't about being anti-christian. I am an atheist but I follow some of what Jesus said. Jesus was a cool dude. Atheism is about not caring about religions, not being serious in religion, or just not believing.

Let me tell you why no one cares..wait, there's too many reasons=/

quote:Originally posted by Hammer&Sickle:

but you will never be able to prove or disprove that he exists, so I suggest you should take the benefit of the doubt,

Which side gets the benefit?

quote:I have a feeling God exists, things that cannot be explained or haven't yet been explained by Science,

I have no such feeling. In fact, I have a feeling that God doesn't exist. Whose feeling is more valid?

quote:therefore I look to God, I mean isn't more comforting to know that someone always loves you and he will always forgive you and that there is a life after this one?

You're right! If it makes you feel good, it must be true!

quote:My theory hasn't been completely bugged out, and it probably never will, but this is about as close as I can get to making sense.

And since people haven't disproven my theory about the planet made entirely of bees ten thousand light years away (and probably never will), I will continue to espouse it to all who will listen.

"You're right! If it makes you feel good, it must be true!"

Did he say it was 100% true? .... don't jump to conclusions.

Im assuming you are an atheist, couldn't he say the same thing about your atheist belief?

"And since people haven't disproven my theory about the planet made entirely of bees ten thousand light years away (and probably never will), I will continue to espouse it to all who will listen."

You already did. And he expects/deserves the same understanding/respect that you expect/deserve.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Did he say it was 100% true? .... don't jump to conclusions.

I don't see why people feel they need to believe anything.

The only thing that I have to base on faith is that logic is logical. Everything else follows from there.

quote:Im assuming you are an atheist, couldn't he say the same thing about your atheist belief?

If atheism is a belief, then so is your dismissal of my bee-planet theory.

quote:You already did. And he expects/deserves the same understanding/respect that you expect/deserve.

Oh, I understand all right. He is yet another theist/spiritualist who has decided to enlighten us all with his baseless beliefs.

"I don't see why people feel they need to believe anything.

The only thing that I have to base on faith is that logic is logical. Everything else follows from there."

That was smart. You start by saying, "I don't see why people feel they need to believe anything" and then end with the belief that logic is logical... Brilliant.

"If atheism is a belief, then so is your dismissal of my bee-planet theory."

Exactly. Did I question that in any way? Your theory could be right, just as his..

"Oh, I understand all right. He is yet another theist/spiritualist who has decided to enlighten us all with his baseless beliefs"

Lets say the same to you:

He is yet another atheist who has decided to enlighten us all with his baseless disbelief.

You see, you tried to "bash" him for "preaching" yet you ended preaching yourself.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

That was smart. You start by saying, "I don't see why people feel they need to believe anything" and then end with the belief that logic is logical... Brilliant.

Alright, that wasn't a great argument. However, belief in logic requires a lot less faith than belief in theism.

quote:Exactly. Did I question that in any way? Your theory could be right, just as his..

No, it couldn't. My theory is utterly ridiculous. If you don't scoff at that, what *will* you scoff at?

quote:He is yet another atheist who has decided to enlighten us all with his baseless disbelief.

Without proof, disbelief is a natural state, and as such is a reasonable position. IE. is not baseless.

quote:You see, you tried to "bash" him for "preaching" yet you ended preaching yourself.

I'm not preaching. I really couldn't care less whether I "convert" anyone. (ooh, look at my clever use of quotation marks)

When you die, you rot in the ground, just like your dog Smokey. I dont see why that's so hard to comprehend. Why make death and life so fancy? You're here on earth because your mom and dad fucked. And chances are, thousands of years ago, we were a little bit more hairy than we are now. Thousands of years before that, we resembled fucking apes. lol, some guy looking over us 'protecting us'.. Doesnt that sound a little too much like a fairy tale to all you that believe in a supreme being?

-Lovley

“However, belief in logic requires a lot less faith than belief in theism.”

That is an opinion not a fact, thus it means nothing.

“No, it couldn't. My theory is utterly ridiculous. If you don't scoff at that, what *will* you scoff at?”

It cannot be right? I never said it was 100% certain, or that it was the most probable circumstance, just that it COULD be possible. Even if theres a .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000001% chance of it being true, its still possible.

And again, it being ridiculous is an opinion, not a fact.

“Without proof”

Er… That is what baseless means.

“ooh, look at my clever use of quotation marks”

Yes, I love using “quotation marks”, if you think they are clever, then even better…

If they bother you that much, I’m truly sorry for you.

Wow, you guys really built off wha i said. Well Craftian and Rust or whatever Rusty. You guys mix your intelligence and voacbulary with your opinions. I suggest you write a book! But seriously if you want an intelligent discussion on what you are talking about i suggest you cut your opinions out of it

what are you going on about you hypocryt. you jsut expressed your opinion, everything anyone says is an expression of opinion. if you say the car IS black, but that is jsut your opinion because that is how you percieve the colour of that car. but if you where to look through the eyes of a bird you would see it white. so therefore you have jsut expressed your opnion and mixed it with vocab, coz if u hadnt mixed it with vocab you wouldnt have written anything. so why dont you go write a book!!

It depresess me of how so many people throw their lives away to the lie of "god". They sing songs to "god", they pray to "god", they go to church to "god" and all that other shit. It just depresess me.

quote:Originally posted by Raz:

It depresess me of how so many people throw their lives away to the lie of "god". They sing songs to "god", they pray to "god", they go to church to "god" and all that other shit. It just depresess me.

true. instead of going to church they should just get some pussy or something or do some tripping.

umm dude your post about me being a hypocrite? umm let me explain something to you here is my post:

Wow, you guys really built off wha i said. Well Craftian and Rust or whatever Rusty. You guys mix your intelligence and voacbulary with your opinions. I suggest you write a book! But seriously if you want an intelligent discussion on what you are talking about i suggest you cut your opinions out of it

now the part "You guys mix your intelligence and voacbulary with your opinions..........But seriously if you want an intelligent discussion on what you are talking about i suggest you cut your opinions out of it"

is important and taken out of that

"if you want an intelligent discussion on what you are talking about i suggest you cut your opinions out of it"

and out of that "intelligent discussion"

here is your post:

what are you going on about you hypocryt. you jsut expressed your opinion, everything anyone says is an expression of opinion. if you say the car IS black, but that is jsut your opinion because that is how you percieve the colour of that car. but if you where to look through the eyes of a bird you would see it white. so therefore you have jsut expressed your opnion and mixed it with vocab, coz if u hadnt mixed it with vocab you wouldnt have written anything. so why dont you go write a book!!

Now I am not a hypocrite because 1.) I did not express my opinion in an intelligent discussion or pertaining to one, therefore I did not contradict myself, thus I am not a hypocrite.

Errors in your post: "everything anyone says is an expression of opinion" that is false 1.) because there is always a truth therefore no opinion, only fact. "if you say the car IS black, but that is jsut your opinion because that is how you percieve the colour of that car." The car is definitely black because that is the way light bounces off that object. That specific color unlike red or green or blue, is always definite and is always the same for all animals. A bird might not be able to see a color and only a shade of gray but that does not mean that it is an opinion if someone sees the actual color. There is always a fact, and the example you gave was fact therefore there is no opinion. You are extremely new to this forum, and so am I but not as much. But I have been on Forums alot more evidently than you have, so I am trying to show you how to word your posts, and to avoid people like me who can easily prove you wrong. I want to make sure you don't learn the hard way that you will if you do not read and follow what i just said

-regards



[This message has been edited by Hammer&Sickle (edited 06-23-2003).]

Weed and Booze, well if you agree to that, I think we can all agree that it is much more comforting that someone loves you always and alwasys listens to you than having to know that there is nothing beyond this life and that no one loves you and that you are on your own. For some it might but for me I prefer to know that someone is always there for me and is waiting for me when I die

There is no "God" watching and loving and shit.. Because it's people who control their lives.. If I wanted to, I could go to where you live with a shotgun and that'd be the end of you.. "God" wouldnt stop me. So no matter what, you're not going to feel his protection while you're here on earth. (Totally being hypothetical here.. I could never harm anyone for no reason, much less kill them with a reason or not.)

Ha, "God" listens to you? You're talking to a wall. You can pray for your dad to get a job, but chances are he wont.. And that's not because 'God" works in mysterious ways, it's because he's not there. The Bible and religion is perfect, has a damn excuse for everything, so it's that much harder to prove it wrong. If you want proof that "God" doesnt exist, take a damn look around you. We control our lives, not some "puppet master". If I want to save someone's life, I can. If I want to kill them, I can. There's no influence by a supreme being in any actions I take.. because MY eyes are open, and it's MY life.

I feel a little more comfortable knowing that whatever happens to me is because someone or something I can see, not some guy having an effect on things that we cannot see, "way up there"

Strike me with a lightening bolt if you must... If "God" knew the best for us, we wouldnt be here in the first place. If he loved us, we'd live a life in "heaven" from start to finish.

Well than you would have to redefine love. Because that is your opinion. Because what you want is not necessarily what you need therefore your and my opinion according to religion is not adequate or close to affecting or touching God's judgement

Lovely you must have missed something. Since when did God control people's lives?! He doesn't HE ALLOWS FREE WILL! If you did not know that you are the biggest idiot in this forum. I suggest you read the bible before you make a comment. *shakes head* because God watches doesn't mean he controls....

I stand corrected about him controlling us.

Free will is a joke however.. the bible Does have passages about "God" killing those who didnt do what he wanted them to. So in essence it's like "Do what you want. If you dont do what I want you're fucked http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)" or at least that's how it 'was' in the Bible.

my mistake

quote:Originally posted by Hammer&Sickle:

He doesn't HE ALLOWS FREE WILL!

Hot damn! Free will!

Despite the fact that you are incredibly limited in what you are actually allowed to do with your will. Unless you relish the prospect of having your loving, merciful god punish you for eternity.

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

Hot damn! Free will!

Despite the fact that you are incredibly limited in what you are actually allowed to do with your will. Unless you relish the prospect of having your loving, merciful god punish you for eternity.

That totally slipped my mind. Hey Hammer&Sickle, is the shirt you're wearing made of two different materials? *surprised face* Shit I thought we had free will? What's up with that? Does your neighbor have a 60in plasma t.v., and *gasp* you want one too?! You cannot covet thy neighbor's goods, shame on you! Free will all the way!

i come to totse often and read the stuff here, but i never had an account to post on the forums. i just created one because i really wanted to post on this topic.

i HATE christians

sure, christmas is great, but i just cant stand it when their dumbasses talk on and on about that garbage in the bible. theyre so fucking ignorant. i even had a friend who is christian, he was my best friend, one day he started talking to me about all this "go to church, its good for you" garbage. i couldnt fucking stand it, i dont talk to him anymore. althought i didnt read the 2 pages of messages before mine (too lazy, so i dont know if you talked about this), i must say, the bible is a work of fiction. it was made up, just like harry potter. i agree with weed man here, jesus could have been real. but i think if he was, he was one crazymofo making a bunch of shit up... hey guys, guess what, i walked on water the other day! "wow jusus youre so cool! youre my friend!" hahahhahaha.. there are too many damn christians where i live. i wish i could just punch them in the head and make those fuckers stop BELIEVING in their bullshit religon. beliefs are not facts, you just support them, THEYRE NOT FACTS. and then theres creationism.. evolution... AHHHH that reminds me, that guy once said to me (when i was explaining god isnt real to him) "well you cant see air either, but you know its there" that very single line right there, made me want to kill him. i cant type anymore.. im just TOO FUCKING PISSED OFF

there are just so many, TOO MANY, things i could say about this...

"is the shirt you're wearing made of two different materials? *surprised face* Shit I thought we had free will?"

Please, think before you post. That has nothing to do with free will. You had the free will to buy that shirt... Free will doesn't mean having what you want, it means having the freedome to do what you want.

"What's up with that? Does your neighbor have a 60in plasma t.v., and *gasp* you want one too?! You cannot covet thy neighbor's goods, shame on you!"

Again it has absolutely nothing to do with free will, yet lets entertain your argument of coveting...

To Covet: To feel immoderate desire for that which is another's.

Wanting the T.V. is not bad, so you loose.

Again, you are warned, not forced; thus there is still free will.

"beliefs are not facts, you just support them, THEYRE NOT FACTS"

You believe Christians are stupid...

You believe the bible is fiction...

You believe tha God isn't real...

Be smart about what you're gonna post, YOU just disproved YOURSELF, in YOUR own post. Plenty stupid.

alright unchewed meat you are ignorant period hands down go dig a grave and bury yourself and rid us of your stupidity. Lovely you don't know what free will is, or maybe you do but that is not what your post implies. I have the free will to do whatever I want whenever I want. The fact is that I could easily get punished free will does not mean that you can do what you want without punishment, look up free, and then will before you so much as flinch towards this website topic.

yall really need to think about how stupid this sounds.. streets of gold.. and shit like that it's like he's trying to bribe you into going to heaven... and the whole stoyies i can walk on water its like he's trying to sound kool.. shit in the bible it says when you get in heaven you'll just worship jesus and bow down to him.. yeah that sound like a bunch of fun... thats fucking boring.. he could of made heaven fun... and if anyone has ever read revulation its all about six headed dragons and shit liek that.... the bible is fucked up... and dont say i dont know what the hell i'm tlakin about my dad is a preacher... and i've read the bible 3 and half times.. so i know way the hell more than you think...

jesus , mohammed , budda , krishna ,

same thing,theres no difference,but moses was a serial killer and abraham was a skitsofrenik i think , what made abraham decide one day to cut of a bit of his childs penis and declare that from now on all jews must circumsise there newly born because god said so, very strange and very painfull up until the 20th century

quote:Originally posted by imadespirateloser4money:

and dont say i dont know what the hell i'm tlakin about my dad is a preacher... and i've read the bible 3 and half times.. so i know way the hell more than you think...

You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Taking everything in the Bible literally is like claiming the Rocky theme song was about the physical eyeball of an actual tiger.

You can't analyse any account, literal or otherwise, without taking into account the social and cultural background.

As for mister pointyhat's point about circumcision, when you're a nomadic people wandering around in the desert, it's a lot easier to cut the foreskin off than to have to continually clean all the shit out from underneath. This tradition is the cause of the "Abraham's covenant" story, not the other way round.

if Jesus were alive today, he would most likely be diagnosed as schizophrenic

People need an omnipotent god that loves them so they feel they have place in the universe... instead of the mindless pond scum that we really are, tucked away in an insignificant corner of the universe

And psychotic evangalists use the fire and brimstone to get rich, and abuse little boys and girls

so there! http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Hammer&Sickle:

I have a feeling God exists, things that cannot be explained or haven't yet been explained by Science, therefore I look to God

Lol. Just because science cannot explain some things now, doesn't mean they are supernatural. For instance, remember when we all believed the world was flat? Science couldn't yet (yet being the key word here) explain how we could not percieve of the earth's curvature on the surface, so everyone believed it was flat.

quote:Originally posted by Hammer&Sickle:

isn't more comforting to know that someone always loves you and he will always forgive you and that there is a life after this one?

I don't need religion to find love. I have a family and good friends. They forgive me when I do wrong, and they actually help me when I ask for it. Anyone who thinks they need god, can find what they need from a true friend. As for the second part, no. I find it more comforting that my eternal rest will be an eternal rest. My mind will cease existence and I will no longer be self aware, so do I care? No. I find it funny that people want there to be something more.

quote:Originally posted by Hammer&Sickle:

By the way, all you people who try to test "God" you must realize that in most religions it says "Don't test God, he will not reveal himself because you don't believe in him/her"

I'm sure someone has already said this but, DUH!!! In any other situation that logic is so clearly a scam that nobody could believe it. I guess George Carlin was right when he said, "When it comes to grade A high class bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all time heavy weight champion of false prophesies and broken dreams, religion..."



[This message has been edited by lady_dw (edited 07-04-2003).]

I just think it's absolutely cool that somebody else, that being you, quotes George Carlin. Two thumbs up Lady_dw

George Carlin definately knows how to simplify logic. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Lol. I get pretty good treatment despite being a newbie. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

OK first off im not sure how anyone here can honestly believe in an idea. There has never been any sufficient fact prove or shred of evidence behind anythign of the gods. Most science now adays can explain half the events in the bible and show they werent done by god merely coincidence and good timing. all by chance. Heck some believe that the Bible is simply the oldest history book in exsistence. Why dont most of us know of this simple. YOur belief binds you to ignore it.

Also on another note with Lady_dw im not sure where you got your info from. But at the time the europeans thought the earth was flat, many people around the world knew otherwise. simply to say that because one certain people didnt does not mean everyone didn't.

NOt to be harsh or anything, but a question i have always wondered is not why or anything liek that but simply WHAT? what happened to us why are we such a disease to our own planet. OH wait thats because GHod COndones it and could careless if you destroy this planet. But heres an idea what if there is no god or creator it was just an idea. So if there werent you just destroyed a perfectly good planet all in the name for a god that never exsisted.

Personally i dont care about the afterlfie and where you go , i doubt anythign you do in this lifetime could personally make it worse for you. Maybe youll just ahve to relive life here again who knows. all ims aying is dont listen and believe everythign you here im sure thats why Christianity is such a big religion. give it some thought.

quote:Originally posted by therealboogieman:

[B]Also on another note with Lady_dw im not sure where you got your info from. But at the time the europeans thought the earth was flat, many people around the world knew otherwise. simply to say that because one certain people didnt does not mean everyone didn't.[B]

I was proving a point. Let me rephrase. Remember when Christians thought that the world was flat?...

most people thought the world was flat not only christians, and you are a strange character Lady dw, and I mean strange.

quote:Originally posted by Hammer&Sickle:

most people thought the world was flat not only christians, and you are a strange character Lady dw, and I mean strange.

I'll take that as a compliment.

I'd take it as a compliment if I were you.

This is probably about as irrational as I'll get, but if you are a female (I am assuming so, LoL) and you have a good sense of humor and knowledge, you're pretty damn cool.

Reminds me of that commercial, where it's Monty Python doing some real dumb skit, and at the end it says "If your girlfriend is laughing, marry her"

-- well that's totally off topic.. sorry http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

quote:Originally posted by therealboogieman:

Also on another note with Lady_dw im not sure where you got your info from. But at the time the europeans thought the earth was flat, many people around the world knew otherwise. simply to say that because one certain people didnt does not mean everyone didn't.

If Magellan's crew (European) was the first to circumnavigate the world, or get even close to doing that, then how could anyone else (European or not) know the Earth was round prior to Magellan's trip?

quote:Originally posted by Lovley:

I'd take it as a compliment if I were you.

This is probably about as irrational as I'll get, but if you are a female (I am assuming so, LoL) and you have a good sense of humor and knowledge, you're pretty damn cool.

Reminds me of that commercial, where it's Monty Python doing some real dumb skit, and at the end it says "If your girlfriend is laughing, marry her"

-- well that's totally off topic.. sorry http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

Thank you, yes I am a female. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Monty Python rules!

"For instance, remember when we all believed the world was flat? Science couldn't yet (yet being the key word here) explain how we could not percieve of the earth's curvature on the surface, so everyone believed it was flat."

umm, incorrect. first though, you have to remember religion was science at the time.

remember galilleo was imprisoned for showing the earth not the center of the universe.

and it was old sailor logic that you seen the mast of a ship before the hull of that same ship on the horizon, proving a curvature to the world.

and there are still people the day that think the world flat.

http://www.flat-earth.org/

but you can't really blame religion for it

science is the exact same way.

the big bang theory needs the actual recreation of the event to be proven, despite ALL OF THE EVIDENCE SUPPORTING it. including the background microwave radiation which is exactly as it should be if the big bang occurred, no other theory can account for it, yet people still do not believe it.

why? - it gives creationists a point.

evolution from a single celled organism to man is so incomplete, it can only be a theory, the ONLY thing supporting it is variation withing species, there is no evidence of one species giving birth to another. when trying to explain these they do the EXACT SAME THING RELIGION DOES, the mutations happen gradually over time, or once in while evolution makes a giant leap. with no verifiable evidence. there was a study done once where a scientist tried to "force evolution" on fruit flies, and through 70 generations all mutations returned back to the original fruitfly, some of the mutations would stick at the most 4 or 5 generations.

the study showed that for evolution to succeed not one member of the parent species could have survived beyond 2 generations into the mutation.

here are some more http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/evolprob.html#pseudogenes

if evolution needed the same criteria as the big bang to be taken seriously it would be listed in schoolbooks the same as the big bang was when i was in high school, a two paragraph theory.

instead it takes up a whole year called biology, the first 27 weeks tells you how all this came from that, the last 9 weeks telling you all life has something called dna to keep the offspring resembling the parent and to prevent cross-species fertilization.

and anyone on a farm can tell you, mutations are frequent, quickly lost, and the most extreme don't live long enough to have offspring.

why is evolution so supported? same reason the big bang was ridiculed, it defeats creationists.

i'm not a creationist, i do believe in evolution; however, not in it's current form.

the problem is the same as religion though, to question it is ridiculed, and excuses take the place of facts to satisfy our belief of reality.

quote:Originally posted by IzzyReele:

umm, incorrect. first though, you have to remember religion was science at the time.

I know. My point was that just because science cannot explain a few things now, doesn't mean the explanation is supernatural. It just means we don't know yet.

quote:Originally posted by IzzyReele:

remember galilleo was imprisoned for showing the earth not the center of the universe.

Good point.

quote:Originally posted by IzzyReele:

and it was old sailor logic that you seen the mast of a ship before the hull of that same ship on the horizon, proving a curvature to the world.

Then why didn't they believe it?

quote:Originally posted by IzzyReele:

and there are still people the day that think the world flat.

http://www.flat-earth.org/.

but you can't really blame religion for it.

Yeah, I have heard of this before. It would be sad if it wasn't so funny.

quote:Originally posted by IzzyReele:

science is the exact same way.

How so?

quote:Originally posted by IzzyReele:

the big bang theory needs the actual recreation of the event to be proven, despite ALL OF THE EVIDENCE SUPPORTING it. including the background microwave radiation which is exactly as it should be if the big bang occurred, no other theory can account for it, yet people still do not believe it.

why? - it gives creationists a point.

At least that is more proof than religion has provided, the cop out: "If you question the existence of god he will never show himself to you and he will smite you."

quote:Originally posted by IzzyReele:

evolution from a single celled organism to man is so incomplete, it can only be a theory,

Again we hear the "evolution is just a theory" argument. I don't want to take the time to explain it myself again so here is a clip from an article: When non-biologists talk about biological evolution they often confuse two different aspects of the definition. On the one hand there is the question of whether or not modern organisms have evolved from older ancestral organisms or whether modern species are continuing to change over time. On the other hand there are questions about the mechanism of the observed changes... how did evolution occur? Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming. However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution. Stephen J. Gould has put this as well as anyone else:

In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."

Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.

- Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981

quote:Originally posted by IzzyReele:

the ONLY thing supporting it is variation withing species, there is no evidence of one species giving birth to another. when trying to explain these they do the EXACT SAME THING RELIGION DOES, the mutations happen gradually over time, or once in while evolution makes a giant leap. with no verifiable evidence. there was a study done once where a scientist tried to "force evolution" on fruit flies, and through 70 generations all mutations returned back to the original fruitfly, some of the mutations would stick at the most 4 or 5 generations.

if evolution needed the same criteria as the big bang to be taken seriously it would be listed in schoolbooks the same as the big bang was when i was in high school, a two paragraph theory.

instead it takes up a whole year called biology, the first 27 weeks tells you how all this came from that, the last 9 weeks telling you all life has something called dna to keep the offspring resembling the parent and to prevent cross-species fertilization.

and anyone on a farm can tell you, mutations are frequent, quickly lost, and the most extreme don't live long enough to have offspring.

Like I said, just because science cannot explain a few things yet, doesn't mean that some all powerful invisible force is at work... How did the Big bang theory get involved in this conversation?

quote:Originally posted by IzzyReele:

why is evolution so supported? same reason the big bang was ridiculed, it defeats creationists.

No, it is supported because it is the only theory of our existence that at least has some proof.

quote:Originally posted by IzzyReele:

i'm not a creationist, i do believe in evolution; however, not in it's current form.

the problem is the same as religion though, to question it is ridiculed, and excuses take the place of facts to satisfy our belief of reality.

Good Point.

] quote:Originally posted by IzzyReele:

but you can't really blame religion for it



Scripture does support the idea of the Earth being a flat disc and established on an immoveable set of pillars.

quote:

the big bang theory needs the actual recreation of the event to be proven, despite ALL OF THE EVIDENCE SUPPORTING it. including the background microwave radiation which is exactly as it should be if the big bang occurred, no other theory can account for it, yet people still do not believe it.



It's more than enough evidence to convict. It's like finding a woman's husband dead fron a knife in the back with her bloody fingerprints on it, her leaving town the same day and taking all money out of their account, him having her skin under his fingernails when he scratched her as he was going down, her having the scratch mark with his fingernail residue in it, her having his blood on her hands and a powerful motive to kill him.

Now, of course you could come up with an alternate scenario like "ghosts set her up and convienently planted/created all the evidence", but when you're faced with scenarios like that, the simplest explanation that fits the evidence is most likely the correct one.

quote:

evolution from a single celled organism to man is so incomplete, it can only be a theory, the ONLY thing supporting it is variation withing species, there is no evidence of one species giving birth to another.



Macroevolution has been observed. Hell, we can do it today by cross pollinating the 2 types of plant that create corn.

quote:

when trying to explain these they do the EXACT SAME THING RELIGION DOES, the mutations happen gradually over time, or once in while evolution makes a giant leap. with no verifiable evidence. there was a study done once where a scientist tried to "force evolution" on fruit flies, and through 70 generations all mutations returned back to the original fruitfly, some of the mutations would stick at the most 4 or 5 generations.

the study showed that for evolution to succeed not one member of the parent species could have survived beyond 2 generations into the mutation.

here are some more http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/evolprob.html#pseudogenes



You would do well to use a secular source for your information and not one that is fundamentally biased against evolution. 99% of all arguments I see that come from these creationist sites are errors generated by their misunderstanding/bastardizing evolutionary evidences.

quote:

if evolution needed the same criteria as the big bang to be taken seriously it would be listed in schoolbooks the same as the big bang was when i was in high school, a two paragraph theory.

instead it takes up a whole year called biology, the first 27 weeks tells you how all this came from that, the last 9 weeks telling you all life has something called dna to keep the offspring resembling the parent and to prevent cross-species fertilization.

and anyone on a farm can tell you, mutations are frequent, quickly lost, and the most extreme don't live long enough to have offspring.

why is evolution so supported? same reason the big bang was ridiculed, it defeats creationists.



No. Evolution is supported because it is holding all the cards and has all the evidence. Just look at the 29 evidences for macroevolution (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/). Bear close inspection to Endogenous Retroviruses (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section4.html#retroviruses). Genetic fingerprints that exist in related species. The chances of 2 ERV's being the same are less than the chances of 2 people being born with identical fingerprints. I.e. so improbable that the facts must be accepted.

quote:

i'm not a creationist, i do believe in evolution; however, not in it's current form.

the problem is the same as religion though, to question it is ridiculed, and excuses take the place of facts to satisfy our belief of reality.

You must be reading some bogus shit on the evolutionary sciences then. Facts take precedence over speculation in the scientific community. In the creationist community, it's quite the opposite. Belief takes precedence over facts. That's why you'll see many creationist sites have a "statement of faith" that asserts that no evidence can be valid if it contradicts their beliefs. In otherwords, if reality conflicts with their preconcieved notions, it is reality that is at fault.