Ok, Im Christian, but I'm starting to feel kinda anti-religious. For starters, the age old problem of why God NEEDS us to be clean of sin or we go to Hell. He sets the rules and is all powerful so why would he NEED us to worship him. In another light that is just a form of forcefully gaining power (tyranny?). He doesn't even give us PROOF of his actual existence aside from the Bible, which documents 2000+ year old events. Why not make himself more obvious; less doubt, less confusion...

IF he doesn't exist and we knew it, great, we wouldn't have to uselessly dedicate time to prayer and church. When we die, it wouldn't even really be that bad as we would just no longer have consciousness.

Because he's a dick.

He's got a serious ego problem and likes to fuck with us.

You ought to look into Gnosticism. I think Arms has some links, maybe some others. Check google for yourself.

quote:Originally posted by TheDragon:

Ok, Im Christian, but I'm starting to feel kinda anti-religious. For starters, the age old problem of why God NEEDS us to be clean of sin or we go to Hell. He sets the rules and is all powerful so why would he NEED us to worship him. In another light that is just a form of forcefully gaining power (tyranny?). He doesn't even give us PROOF of his actual existence aside from the Bible, which documents 2000+ year old events. Why not make himself more obvious; less doubt, less confusion...

IF he doesn't exist and we knew it, great, we wouldn't have to uselessly dedicate time to prayer and church. When we die, it wouldn't even really be that bad as we would just no longer have consciousness.

First off, who told you he NEEDS us, more like the bible says he LOVES us, would you rather have people hate you and deny your existence and ignore you without getting pissed or would you rather have people ask for your help and really appreciate you. He doesn't need us to be good, he more like Loves us and does not want us to burn in hell would you want a loved one to? Uhh, he does not show proof, though i agree less confusion and less annoyance and waste of time, but it helps him seperate who is good and who is bad I guess, the Faithful and the Unfaithful. I don't know but to lose your conscious is a pain in the ass, meaing you don't know whether you lived or died, you are nothing you don't know anything. SIGH

I'd believe in a God that used understanding, enlightenment, and the logical method which it designed the human brain to operate under to reveal it's existence rather than a god that strikes people dead on a whim, intentionally keeps his subjects in the dark, and then sends them to eternal torture because they couldn't be convinced that it existed due to the gross lack of evidence of supernatural authority and the overabundance of natural and parsimonious explanations.

The christian doctrines are ones that are maintained not so well in the light as they are in the dark. The less people understand about the world and the way the universe works, the more sense their propaganda makes.

I used to be a Christian a long time ago before I actually started critically analyzing the religion and looking for alternate and logical explanations.

quote:

Topic: Wouldn't it be better if there was no God, no afterlife?



Actually, it would. That way good deeds become more than people being sycophants and sucking up to the god they believe in to get into heaven. If you do something for another, and you don't believe it will have some cosmic payoff, it is purely because you wanted to and not because you felt compelled to do it to gain favor from some supernatural sky-daddy.

If a god exists that is so insecure that it requires exclusive worship of itsself and damns those to hell that will not crumble under the weight of the iron fist, then fuck it. You can believe / suck up to / worship in such a being if you have no principles whatsoever, but I myself am a man of principles. I would never be subjugated by such a being, no matter how much it threatened to endlessly torture me if I didn't.

The god of the Bible is a construction of the church. It's a finely tuned social engineering technique for profitmongering. Anybody with any degree of unbiased independent thinking can see the man behind the curtain.

Now, as for the question of whether some kind of god exists or not:

To tell you the truth, I do not know if a god/gods/godesses exist or not, but it would be better for their reputations if they didn't.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

You ought to look into Gnosticism. I think Arms has some links, maybe some others. Check google for yourself.

Right on!

As I have said before, my god has no preference regarding your behavior, does not judge or punish, does not forgive because there is nothing to be forgiven for. Hell is a myth, and heaven is what you make it.

Christianity sucks. (Boy, how's that for a cogent theological argument?)

I'm a Christian, and maybe some of you have read my other posts. In regards to what most Christians think, I think is bullshit. I used to be really into athiesm a few years ago. Then I got into Buddhism and Taoism, and I eventually discovered Christianity and saw it in a whole new perspective. Most of the stuff you hear about Christianity is a total lie. The Bible is something you can study, although I'm sure it's had alot of modification by governments and stuff because most humans are selfish. Anyways, it would probably be better if there was no afterlife, because I mean, most people will go to hell (according to Christianity), and therefore it's better to have nothing than to suffer constantly. If there was no God? I disagree, since in the Bible it clearly says "God is Love" in the First Letter of John, and I mean it would suck if there was no love in the world, I mean the whole world would basically be a big ghetto with alot of pissed off people who hate each other (well, alot of the world is that way, but oh well). Anyways, people go to hell not because God doesn't love us or anything. God WANTS us to be in heaven......but it's our choice whether we go to heaven or hell. If we sin, we would normally go to hell. But, since Jesus Christ never sinned and was pure, Adam and Eve's wrongdoings were repaid and the gates were reopened, and people could get back into heaven as long as they had God in their heart. I'm still trying to be open minded, and I'm starting to ponder whether one even needs a concept of Jesus Christ to be forgiven.....but anyways, I'm going, good luck to you all. I'm not saying I'm definitely right, I mean, I could be totally wrong. Believe in God could make you go to hell. I honestly don't know. You may wonder if I think it sucks most people go to hell, why I believe it. Well, I personally don't WANT to believe it, and often wish it isn't true. But, I believe it's true. Oh yeah, heaven and hell may be places, although they are most certainly states of mind. And maybe I'm not right on all my theories on Christianity. But I didn't come here to prove my theories to be true, I came here to help myself and others grow as a person. I don't like debating or anything like that to convert people to my viewpoint, since that's not useful.....you should debate for your personal growth. Peace :-D

quote:Actually, it would. That way good deeds become more than people being sycophants and sucking up to the god they believe in to get into heaven. If you do something for another, and you don't believe it will have some cosmic payoff, it is purely because you wanted to and not because you felt compelled to do it to gain favor from some supernatural sky-daddy.

Actually, it would be better if there were a God and an Afterlife but the people didn't know about it. It would be everything you said, plus the added bonus of an afterlife.

quote: It's a finely tuned social engineering technique for profitmongering.

Who's the benefactor? Who is actually gaining all these "profits" ?

You ever been to a busy church on a busy Sunday and see that collection plate stack up? The answer would be whoever has the final say on that fat wad of cash.

The near death experience. Read up on it. I wouldn't mind having an afterlife rather than not existing. The christian afterlife however... I'd rather not exist than risk going to hell.

Good thing christianity is total misinterpretted bullshit though.

u can bicker all u like about god and after life but we cant actualyl proove any of it. for a start we cant proove the existance of afterlife coz dat wud require a ded person 2 b suddenly resurected wiv memories of der death, nah! and god is jst summat u ignorant ppl will av 2 biker about, coz we cant proove it. and y wud he show him self coz den der wud prob b a huge out cry from religious ppl to atheists and a huge war wud break out. may b he exists may b he dont

The reward of a good deed is doing the deed, not hoping you'll go to heaven. We shouldn't need a motive to be nice to people, but we evidently do.

Religion is all about faith. Either you believe or don't. You shoulden't need proof

I'm just gonna skip the whole part about your issues with god and answer the topic question.

In a nutshell, probably. People would probably feel better if they knew that trying to accomplish something in life other than learning and loving was pointless. But i think

that people in general have always needed something to believe in, something even higher than them that controls everyhting. And not neccesarily god, but maybe a rule, a law, or some scientific equation that regulats and binds everything. Even the atheist has to believe that there is no god,no nothing and when he dies it over. No matter what, this much is true. Just my 2¢

If God proved he existed tomorrow, what would change? Nothing, we'd still all be a bunch of waring nations.

Well, you shouldn't do good deeds to go to heaven, since doing so would be a sin....you should do whats right because its right. Anyways, we can't really prove there is an afterlife. But you really need to understand that whether or not an afterlife is real is a totally different question. Just as Morpheus said in the Matrix, if you see real as what you can see, feel, hear, taste, and smell... then real is simply electronic signals interpreted by your brain or something like that. What it all comes down to is real is simply what you believe (percieve) real to be. I mean, to us, the sky is blue. To a dog who can only see black and white (and shades of gray), the sky is never blue. So, an afterlife is real if you HONESTLY believe it, and is not real if you don't believe it. Some people have more of a hope than a belief that it's real, but that's their choice, not mine. I mean, sure, I can't prove an afterlife is real, but how can you prove it ISN'T real? It all comes down to personal choice. But I personally think Christianity doesn't really have much to do with an afterlife (even though many people who claim to be Christian tend to make it seem that way). Actually, heaven and hell are more of states of mind. And many religions, even Buddhism, see them as states of mind. The Buddha (Guatama) himself said that he generally doesn't believe in an afterlife, since doing so would imply that reality doesn't depend upon the mind. I think that heaven and hell are places, but also states of mind. I personally focus more on the spiritual insight and training of Christianity, not the future.

quote: The answer would be whoever has the final say on that fat wad of cash.



Yes, I have seen that fat wad of cash, my questions still stands though.

quote:Originally posted by icantthinkofaname:

u can bicker all u like about god and after life but we cant actualyl proove any of it. for a start we cant proove the existance of afterlife coz dat wud require a ded person 2 b suddenly resurected wiv memories of der death, nah! and god is jst summat u ignorant ppl will av 2 biker about, coz we cant proove it. and y wud he show him self coz den der wud prob b a huge out cry from religious ppl to atheists and a huge war wud break out. may b he exists may b he dont



People have already been resurrected with memories of their death. It's called a near-death experience, like I just said, right before your illiterate half-retarded post.

NDE experiences can be generated with magnetic stimulation of the brain and sensory depravation. The person doesn't have to be near death to have the experience. A wide array of them are mutually exclusive, and tehn there' the name.

"NDE". Near death experience. The brain starts releasing alot of chemicals such as endorphins to reduce the stress and trauma of death. Alot of hallucinations can occur during such a time. Once the brain dies, that's it. Game over. Noone has ever gone brain-dead and come back to tell people what it was like, because once your brain is dead, you are dead.

Your personality, preferences, everything is all on that hard-drive we call a brain. Once the data gets corrupted, the person will degrade in tandem with the damage. Once all data is lost... well.. I'll leave that up for you to decide.

Hey, if there was a very strong case for life after death that could not be simply explained away, I would be on it, but as of currently, all NDE's have prefectly rational,and parsimonious explanations with reproduceable and testable facotors.

Definitely having an afterlife is better!

The Book of Sirac says that God loves everything He created, if He did not love it, He would not have created it.

As for all that stuff about people going to hell and burning in firy damnation for all of eternity, God would never allow it. So why would drifting off into nothing and ceasing to exist be better that spending eternity with everybody else who was ever born?

God would allow burning in hell if and only if we do not willingly repent of our sinful ac-... Ah screw it i'm going to get something to eat and stop typing now...

The Scavenger

I don't think no afterlife would be better. I'd like to go to heaven. I'm not worried about going to hell, so...

Maybe God wants to have a more meaningful relationship, by you sort of overcoming temptation and doubt. So that is why it isn't so obvious, but if you actually did some research into Christianity, it gets really interesting, and you kind of know there is a God.

And the relationship with humanity in general has progressed. In the beginning it was child-like. He showed Israel himself and gave it stuff, then there was Jesus, who if you accept that He died for what you couldn't do or did anyway, you will see Him. He is not hiding Himself He is trying to get a better relationship with you, ask Him to show Himself if you really want to know Him, and He will show Himself.

Also, He doesn't NEED our worship, which isn't singing and bowing and stuff, by the way. Worship can just being thankful, faithful, and doing the right thing and basically having happiness about God. But He wants it, He is a relational being. He will show Himself to you if you want, and will help you grow if you want, but if you don't want to know Him or to grow, well that is not His fault, since we do have free will. But He knows you can't do everything and still stumble and do the wrong thing and He will forgive you, the only unforgivable sin is unrepentance. Not accepting Jesus.

We can't claim to be good if we've never been tempted to do bad.

my two cents.

Yeshua(Jesus to most of you) is not God (Yehovah) or son of God, I believe he is the Messiah though.

For if he was any form of God he would be ultimately immortal and untouchable unless it would be contact of a good nature. The trinity theory is bullshit because the "Holy Spirit" is not a separate being, and if Yeshua and God were father and son then it would not be trinity but duality.

Also, it is not physically possible for God to have a child as we would understand it. That's what gods like Zeus do.

The notion of Hell was added later to the bible. It replaced Sheol, Sheol means grave. The place we know as hell probably doesn't exist and is reserved for the recievers of the Beast Mark.

Also, how can humanity know God's will, so maybe he is the son of God. I don't believe that. Yeshua wasn't the only person ressurected in the Bible either.

You aren't required to worship in churches, actually Christians and other Messianic Sects are still supposed to worship in Synagogue, if not then in the wilderness.

The notion that God abandoned the Jews is also absurd for many reasons. They aren't to be blamed for Deicide (God Murder) because some of them were the first to believe in Yeshua.



I am the Heretical random fact man.

I am influenced by Arius.

Arius was a Libyan Christian who in Roman Times countered the Roman Church and stayed closer to actual Christian beliefs at that time. The Catholic Church fucks up everything, so do Lutherans. All organized churches do.

Arius, RIP.

Sigh. Believe what you want, It won't matter when were dead.

quote:Originally posted by Scavenger:

God would allow burning in hell if and only if we do not willingly repent of our sinful ac-... Ah screw it i'm going to get something to eat and stop typing now...

The Scavenger

"Sins" are indispensable to every society organized on an ecclesiastical basis; they are the only reliable weapons of power; the priest lives upon sins; it is necessary to him that there be "sinning."

Christianity has done its utmost to close the circle and declared even doubt to be sin. One is supposed to be cast into belief without reason, by a miracle, and from then on to swim in it as in the brightest and least ambiguous of elements: even a glance towards land, even the thought that one perhaps exists for something else as well as swimming, even the slightest impulse of our amphibious nature -- is sin! And notice that all this means that the foundation of belief and all reflection on its origin is likewise excluded as sinful. What is wanted are blindness and intoxication and an eternal song over the waves in which reason has drowned.

If the Christian dogmas of a revengeful God, universal sinfulness, election by divine grace and the danger of eternal damnation were true, it would be a sign of weak-mindedness and lack of character not to become a priest, apostle or hermit and, in fear and trembling, to work solely on one's own salvation; it would be senseless to lose sight of one's eternal advantage for the sake of temporal comfort. If we may assume that these things are at any rate believed true, then the everyday Christian cuts a miserable figure; he is a man who really cannot count to three, and who precisely on account of his spiritual imbecility does not deserve to be punished so harshly as Christianity promises to punish him.

As long as a man knows very well the strength and weaknesses of his teaching, his art, his religion, its power is still slight. The pupil and apostle who, blinded by the authority of the master and by the piety he feels toward him, pays no attention to the weaknesses of a teaching, a religion, and soon usually has for that reason more power than the master. The influence of a man has never yet grown great without his blind pupils. To help a perception to achieve victory often means merely to unite it with stupidity so intimately that the weight of the latter also enforces the victory of the former.

...Sorry.. I thought this was Media...Sorry...

[This message has been edited by yoyobek (edited 07-14-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by icantthinkofaname:

u can bicker all u like about god and after life but we cant actualyl proove any of it. for a start we cant proove the existance of afterlife coz dat wud require a ded person 2 b suddenly resurected wiv memories of der death, nah! and god is jst summat u ignorant ppl will av 2 biker about, coz we cant proove it. and y wud he show him self coz den der wud prob b a huge out cry from religious ppl to atheists and a huge war wud break out. may b he exists may b he dont



You are from England, right?

Please post in English.