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lady_dw
2003-07-08, 05:41
This is not about disproving god's existence. This is about disproving the existence of the Christian Satan. This has been researched very thoroughly. There is a bibliograhy reference at the end.

Does Lucifer Exist?

To understand my thesis, you first have to understand who or what Lucifer is. In Job 1 & 2, Q (I refer to God as Q to remove the emotional attachments and examine the concept of Q without clouding the issue. I use X in place of Christ in the word Christianity and it’s derivatives for the same reason) is impressed with a man named Job, who has lived an upright life. A satan, who is described as a member of the Court of Heaven, suggests that he is only a righteous man because he has lived a fortunate life and that all of it would change if he were more misfortunate. So Q instructs the satan to destroy all that Job owns including his innocent children. In spite of his troubles, Job still praises Q, so he decides to send the satan down again, this time to deteriorate his health. In Zechariah 3:1-7 another member of Qs counsel is described as a satan. In this story he objects to Joshua’s high priesthood. Then in Numbers 22:20- 22 Q says to Balaam "If men come to call thee, rise up, and go with them.” When the men come to call on him, he does as god has instructed and goes with them. Q is angered by this and sends a satan to prevent Balaam from going. (Which is rather confusing because Balaam was only doing exactly what Q instructed). In these stories most Xians make it sound as if these three instances involve the same character, however, some bible scholars say that the stories use the word “satan” simply to describe a person who obstructs or disagrees with someone else1. The Hebrew word “Satan” translates directly to adversary2.

Possibly the most popular reference to evil in the Bible is the story of Adam and Eve and their fall from grace. In this story a character called the “serpent” tempts Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which was forbidden by god, but is this character a reference to an evil demigod? Judging by what the Bible says later in Genesis 3:14 “And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.” This seems to be referring to a type of animal, the snake, not to one specific being who opposes god.

The first time the name “Lucifer” actually appears in the Bible is in Isaiah, however Lucifer is a Latin name. How could a Latin name be in the original Hebrew texts of the Bible before Latin was ever spoken? It was actually an accumulated mistranslation. The original story was about a Babylonian King who persecuted the children of Israel, not about a fallen angel; a being which never existed in the original Hebrew text of the Bible until then3. The reason given for this mistranslation starts with a Hebrew expression that was used to describe the Babylonian King as “Helal, son of Shahar”, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The expression was simply used to illustrate his royalty. In the first translation into Latin St. Jerome mistakenly translated this as Lucifer which means “bearer of light.” Somehow, as time progressed, the story of the Babylonian King changed into the story of the fallen angel we now know.

In the older Hebrew scriptures, Satan never appears as the separate entity of “the devil” who opposes all humanity and Q, but is used as a description which could be applied to more than one being. This is because early Hebrews viewed Q as a neutral being rather than as an infinitely altruistic deity. The dichotomy between the two supernatural forces of good and evil in the form of the protagonist Q and antagonist Lucifer doesn’t come into play until the New Testament. This philosophy is known as dualism. The Xian idea of dualism is that you either worship Q or you worship Lucifer.

The positive side of dualism is that it provides an exact definition of good and evil, providing the individual with a sense of pride and satisfaction in what they hold as truth. A dualist does not question his or her beliefs, so it instills confidence. Dualism also has the attraction of a great reward at the end of one’s life providing that they followed the rules and led a good life in the eyes of their people.

The negative side of this philosophy of dualism is that it offers only a very ignorant viewpoint. Since there is no neutrality, you are either right or you are wrong. This philosophy is often used to justify the oppression of people who hold different views. Two good examples of this are the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition. During the Crusades European Xians fought and killed to enforce their beliefs upon Muslims, Jews, Orthodox Xians, heretics and basically anyone they disagreed with. Generally references to the Crusades are only about the Xians invading in the middle east, however there were many other crusades conducted on other religious factions. For example The Spanish Inquisition that started with Pope Gregory IX in 1231 CE. There is no official total count of the people who were tortured and burned at the stake from the inquisition, but historians do know various accounts of individual inquisitors. Examples of such are Bernard Fui who convicted at least 930 people, and Robert le Bourge who sent 183 people to the stake in a single week. It wasn’t until 1917 that torture was officially taken off the list of legal options for the church.

Believing in this philosophy also hinders the development of society, because if there is already an explanation that they take as valid, wheather it is wrong or right, it will not be tested against other theories. This explains the troubles of various scientists such as Galileo Galilee, who was forced to denounce all of his scientific research in the name of Q and then spend the rest of his life under house arrest.

Another problem with a dualistic society is that it has no concept of other cultures, and therefor will try to convert others to their way of thinking without any respect for the traditions of the people they convert. An example of this is found in the introduction of Xianity to the Americas. When early European settlers came to America they brought with them their Idealism, and since they had no concept of the religions that the native people practiced, they thought it was their duty and right to change them.

Why did the later writers of the bible decide to implement dualism? A possible reason is for power. When you control how the people see right and wrong you have absolute power over them, and since no new ideas can be spoken of without the label of blasphemy, their power goes unchallenged. Also with the possible threat of an eternal damnation looming over their heads, fear keeps the people from speaking up, no matter how they feel.

Another possible reason for the introduction of dualism to Xianity was to help enforce the laws of the time. If the people have a greater fear of the punishment for committing a crime, they are less likely to commit them, or so the leaders of the time may have thought. The threat of an eternal pain would have been a great motivator to keep people in line.

In conclusion, in the minds of the original writers of the bible, evil was merely a concept that had no actual face. When the Apocrypha and the New Testament were added the translators changed a few things to better suit their society, which, they thought, would benefit from the idea of dualism. To make it more acceptable they created the separate entity of Lucifer to be the antagonist to Q. This is detrimental to our society because it provides very little room for human error, by saying that everything is either good or evil, never both or in between.

____________________________________________

1 & 2 “Satan in the Old Testament and In Early Jewish Apocryphal Writings,” Rob Sheldon, http://cspar181.uah.edu/RbS/JOB/ss0.html

3 “A Pilgrim's Path,” John J. Robinson, pp. 47-48

Bibliography

“Satan in the Old Testament and In Early Jewish Apocryphal Writings,” Rob Sheldon, http://cspar181.uah.edu/RbS/JOB/ss0.html

“The Skeptics Annotated Bible,” Steve Wells http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

“Christian Violence,” Austin Cline http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blfaq_viol_index.htm

“The Atheist Attic,” Vincent M. Wales http://www.bee.net/cardigan/attic/attic.htm

“A Pilgrim's Path,” John J. Robinson

“Atheist Debater’s Handbook,” B. C. Johnson

“Lucifer Genesis to Anno Domini,” Abraham B. Doe

ArmsMerchant
2003-07-08, 20:48
My goodness, so much work for so little.

All you have to do is ask god, he'll tell you satan is a myth. That, or read Conversations with God.

Silver Lights
2003-07-08, 22:24
Satan exists. Armsmerchant is a liar.

Kikey_Kikeowitz
2003-07-08, 22:35
quote:Originally posted by Silver Lights:

Satan exists. Armsmerchant is a liar.

No he doesn;t.

Silver Lights
2003-07-08, 23:22
quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

No he doesn;t.



Oh really! That must mean that your jewish god is satan.

Kikey_Kikeowitz
2003-07-09, 00:12
quote:Originally posted by Silver Lights:

Oh really! That must mean that your jewish god is satan.



My 'jewish god' is the same as yours, bitch.

Tyrant
2003-07-09, 05:18
Such productive responses...

Congratulations on your effort. You made some good points and had some interesting facts I was not aware of in Biblical translation. Good work.

I see a few problems, however. First, your argument against dualism: truth is not relative. Gravity either exists, or it doesn't exist. Molecules either exist, or they don't exist. God either exists, or he doesn't exist. Neutrality is not an option.

Second, your other argument against dualism: stubborn tenacity is the fault of the father complex Christianity offers. Scientists of that age weren't attacked because they threatened the Church - that implies the Church knew Christianity was a hoax. They were attacked out of the protective altruism Christianity teaches - in other words, that the scientists had to die so that the rest of society, and their collective psyche, could be considered sinless or redeemed.

Other than that, never open the closing paragraph with "In conclusion..."

Fuck
2003-07-09, 05:38
Satan does not exist according to near death experience research, either.

When people say "I don't believe that God is real, because why would he let satan exist?", I tell them "he doesn't... satan isn't real" but they never listen to me, ever. I guess Christianity sets the "rules" for believing in God, for so many people. Probably because it's everywhere you turn, in this society. You can't go downtown at night without someone asking you to "accept Christ into your heart"... I'll bet you those words don't even have any meaning for them anymore... just repeated prayers, broken records.

I have yet to read CWG but I have "questions and answers from CWG" by the same guy (Neale Walsch)... I figured I'd buy it before I bought the rest of the series to get a good outlook on it. I like what I am reading http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

lady_dw
2003-07-09, 08:44
quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Such productive responses...

Congratulations on your effort. You made some good points and had some interesting facts I was not aware of in Biblical translation. Good work.

I see a few problems, however. First, your argument against dualism: truth is not relative. Gravity either exists, or it doesn't exist. Molecules either exist, or they don't exist. God either exists, or he doesn't exist. Neutrality is not an option.

First, thank you for your compliment. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) I guess I really meant to say good and evil are relative, not truth is relative.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Second, your other argument against dualism: stubborn tenacity is the fault of the father complex Christianity offers. Scientists of that age weren't attacked because they threatened the Church - that implies the Church knew Christianity was a hoax. They were attacked out of the protective altruism Christianity teaches - in other words, that the scientists had to die so that the rest of society, and their collective psyche, could be considered sinless or redeemed.

Good point. Thank you.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Other than that, never open the closing paragraph with "In conclusion..."

Lol. That's what the professor said. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

lady_dw
2003-07-09, 08:51
quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

My goodness, so much work for so little.

All you have to do is ask god, he'll tell you satan is a myth. That, or read Conversations with God.

Like I said, this is not about god. I do not believe in god, but that fact is irrelevent to this thread, so I will say no more about it.

jay666
2003-07-09, 21:12
actally some people have seen hell in NDE's which is the only thing that kinda puts a kink in the its jus u trippin theroy but it is only u trippin

Aphelion Corona
2003-07-09, 21:21
This issue has a lot to do with free will, Satan may not be an entity, but is it possible that there is a small "Satan" inside us all, and that this "Satan" does not oppose God's will, but actually follows it by allowing us to make our own decisions, even if they're evil?

(Rhetorical question)

Lucifer-Steve
2003-07-09, 21:37
Satan Is very real that is why people go to chruch if he was fake why would any become a christian (Satan has kept the Chruch in business)

UrbnTbone
2003-07-09, 23:31
Hell doesn't need a myth of a rebel angel, a "devil".

Jews-not as a race, but as the biblical keyholders- never intended in the hebrew text, such an insult to common sense as an independant entity fighting against the almighty...

Buddhists also believe in some hell, but not in rebel satanic theory either.

1 "Hell" as a logical dissolution process:

Again, the "reincarnation" hypothesis gets the token: your thoughts, speech and actions generate energies, just the same that some seemingly tiny air stream can stick to is own kind and turn into a hurricane. So, once you undergo dissolution, your (buddhist) mind, or your (jewish-biblical) soul, becomes receiver of the energies it contributed to channel. It used to be in control while alive, but now it is reversed and passive. It doesn't have the tools anymore to participate in the game, but it has to get through all the consequences of its deeds.

As Famous 19th century chemist Lavoisier put it, "nothing gets created, nothing gets lost, all there is: transformation". By simple logic one can commonly assume that what is true in the physical realm, is also in the "root system", the likely spiritual realm.

That's for "hell". About the satan, lady dw brought 95% sound information. Here is a sample of my recognition.

2 The toxic tale of a "rebel" satan, insult to the idea of an allmighty God:

About the "rebel" satanic myth, the Bible never intended to bring such a stupid cliché, that of a feeble god against whom some creations can rebel... All there is is, is an angel, which is part of the world's hardware. That was the input of Hebrew Bible: there is no dualism, no manicheism, no rebel forces, there is only light, with extreme shades but part of an unity - nothing out of control.

3 Being a cosmic factor, it is a guideline to observe the world, understand an output from the input and get a glimpse of the root program:

The biblical story of Job, tested and always praising God even while cursing the day of his birth.

You can see similar patterns in society: when someone is really righteous, void of egotistic motives, there are often the jealous inferior human beings to criticize and invent calomnies ($) .

When some great mind comes over with innovations, it gets fired at by the creatures of darkness: greedy conformists, racists, fanatics ($$).

If we try to use the scripture as some product of wisdom carrying hot-keys to world structure and affairs, then here we are, talking about the Bible's Job connection. If we were mentioning some vedic text, we wouldn't use the translation claimed by some corrupt, western vedic cult. So here we have to clean the lense about the Bible. Forget anything Xian you thought was representative of the "Bible". The only thing you can remember from Xian scripture is the "new testament", and only the parts of it that are not putting calomny on the "old-testament" God. So what does the Bible say? What would you do if you were Job? WWJD? WWJS? Job would say, bless the name of the holy one. Never would Job curse the satan, or the infidels, or the blacks, the Jews, whoever, for his own shortcomings. By doing so he proved he was a real one. He didn'd have shortcomings in his righteousness. Satan had a Job, but he couldn't reach down to his core.

But why at all disturb the righteous? Well, as a trade mark, there has to be a copyright. If not for Job's test, there could have been thousands zealots saying "look, I also have Job's deeds, I even did better". The satanic mission was to put a final seal on the Tsaddik's worthy karma. Now, as a blueprint, how does this apply to our - any - time?

Job was apparently a new kind of a righteous in his times, so his essential purpose had to be tested, will it survive the system?

In modern history, we see the similar, yet collective karma of the protest mv't in the 1960's-70's: drugs got into their way, instead of being creative in protest and resistance, they got into wishy-washy cosmic stuff, margin communities, well they never really bothered the greedy vampires anymore...

Today, there are real protest mvt's, inspired partly by those pre-hippy righteous who can't stand buying nikke shoes for $100 while the kids work for 30 cts per hour in vietnam sweatshops. Slavery is back in the USA, just that it is done outside. But the death penalty should be used against these billionaire american citizens paying their staff abroad anything around 1/1000th of the product's retail price. Salvador, Bengladesh, all these plants with private militias and corporate dictatorship, children abuse, sexual assault from supervisors, death threats and mass-firing for those workers trying to resist and build unions...

This is America? Well, CBS is now a slave to Nikke's swootch, something really terrifying is happening, there is no more freedom of speech, the media are now parts of giant corporations, or have deals with them, the truth is getting harder to reach, top journalists are being destroyed because they dared open their mouth.

That is a big test of the system to democracy.

The "satan" is well-advised by the system designer, since through these painful tests, will the protests become ever more powerful, people who were designed dumbasses by brainwash TV and toxic culture, will get up and stand up for their rights, and for the rights of far away populations in remote countries.

The more fascism (state, corporate) will put its claws around mankind's throat, the more resistance they will encounter and the harder will they get crossed. But it takes some living creations to stand in the breach. Not TV eyed junkies...

Read, learn, exercise, stop drugs, be pragmatic because the cancer of mankind we are fighting, and they are pragmatic.

$ often the jealous inferior human beings

Not that there are some humans, inferior by nature or destiny, but some of our own human kind keep looking for trouble to their souls by agressing more advanced souls: by doing so, they get down the ladder, well that ladder can also be used by black-power-seekers but it is not the job of any "rebel" entity, just some free-will enforcing squad.

$$ by the creatures of darkness: greedy conformists, racists, fanatics

There is a racism of the intellect: new ideas are fought by the rat system. Food for thought is always fought by the state cults of the "thought for food", those who live on yesterday's inventions, and burn new inventors at the stake. Those who still sell medications proved harmful, and attack any breakthrough in their field, since it would at first threaten the investments of existing pharmaceutical industries. Etc... Etc...

But what could be a purpose to these kinds of state and corporate criminal acts, now more and more supported by collabo journalists and media executives? Isn't it just awful, pointing to some huge sum of negative karma concentrated in the hands of the greedy corporate wizards?

[This message has been edited by UrbnTbone (edited 07-09-2003).]

Let Me Die
2003-07-10, 00:47
satan exists no matter what thell you try to say

aTTiKus
2003-07-10, 05:06
To me, he exists.

Dark_Magneto
2003-07-10, 05:24
Of course Satan exists. "Satan" is the paper the propaganda that espouses his existence is printed on and nothing more.

Silver Lights
2003-07-10, 12:06
quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

My 'jewish god' is the same as yours, bitch.



Your jewish god is satan and is not the same as mine, bitch.

Silver Lights
2003-07-10, 12:10
Lucifer is an archangel and a very powerful one...he is one of the fallen ones and so is satan. They are very real. Only the fallen ones defend them or try to tell others that they don't exist.

Kikey_Kikeowitz
2003-07-10, 16:54
quote:Originally posted by Silver Lights:

Your jewish god is satan and is not the same as mine, bitch.



Ok. I can't take it anymore.

If I had some kind of remote HIV injector, you'd be my first victim.

I'm done. Talk all the bullshit you want, lie all you want. I won't read it, it's making me sick.

Aphelion Corona
2003-07-10, 18:20
quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

Ok. I can't take it anymore.

If I had some kind of remote HIV injector, you'd be my first victim.

I'm done. Talk all the bullshit you want, lie all you want. I won't read it, it's making me sick.



That's really stupid Kikey, they might one day be able to cure it.

Use a remote claymore mine injector, I believe that would be more effective.

Beany
2003-07-10, 19:40
quote:Originally posted by Silver Lights:

Lucifer is an archangel and a very powerful one...he is one of the fallen ones and so is satan. They are very real. Only the fallen ones defend them or try to tell others that they don't exist.

You're a crackpot! an absolute crackpot!

Think MCFly, Think!

UrbnTbone
2003-07-10, 22:26
quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

Ok. I can't take it anymore.

If I had some kind of remote HIV injector, you'd be my first victim.

I'm done. Talk all the bullshit you want, lie all you want. I won't read it, it's making me sick.

Hey, why do you lose your temper? Silberfights is just one of those tiny nazis highly concentrated on totse. I think totse is a concentration camp for nazis. Why do you even care about the spam, did you ever think you were on a moderated site? Skip it, Moshikokiko...

UrbnTbone
2003-07-10, 22:36
That guy silberfights is a kind of satan trying to ruin threads that don't please his schizoid cultish mind.

Did you know?...

Silverfights is a guy, once sent me an email with a "Brian" sth header.

Silberfights is a nutty Stargate cult follower. Sometiimes even, silberfights posted stuff kind of "I am the master of the energy", "I can destroy you", "I am god", whatnot. Basically anything crazy from A to Z, that you can imagine, silberfights posted it on totse.

The guy Brian sth tried to pose as a girl. But me and others, received these mails with "Brian sth" headers.

I am wasting this time because the looney got really annoying, trying to spoil anything with Judaism in it. The motherfuckers don't ever stop any nazi from spamming and disrupting forums, they tend to moderate in very particular ways that none understands.

Lucifer-Steve
2003-07-11, 00:30
Stupidity too bad it isnt painful for those of you.

UrbnTbone
2003-07-11, 19:36
Nobody said lucifer worship didn't produce effects. Any worship does.

The point is, that the concept of a fallen angel, a rebel against the allmighty, is a childish nonsense. Now, if some guys have fun worshipping an angel as if it had more power than it really has, why not. The point is, the satan of the bible is no more than an axe in the hand of the lumberjack. What Xstians invented later on , fine but it was not in the bible in the first place. San Benedetto de nursia protect us from the xian excess and from their darksiders... Vade Retro Satanas

Silver Lights
2003-07-12, 02:42
quote:Originally posted by Beany:

You're a crackpot! an absolute crackpot!

Think MCFly, Think!

Shut up beany and use your brain and heart that God gave you. Do you think satan or lucifer gave them to you? You are becoming a bloody jackass like the rest. Maybe, it all the damn weed that you smoke. Sit your backside down and look within yourself and you just may find the answers...if you are not too clogged up with weed and alcohol.

*why do I even bother with this stupid little child?*



[This message has been edited by Silver Lights (edited 07-12-2003).]

Silver Lights
2003-07-12, 02:43
quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

Ok. I can't take it anymore.

If I had some kind of remote HIV injector, you'd be my first victim.

I'm done. Talk all the bullshit you want, lie all you want. I won't read it, it's making me sick.



...and you think that you are an Indigo Child...I don't think so. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

Silver Lights
2003-07-12, 02:45
urbone is a satan worshipper. Crowley is his 'spiritual' teacher.

kathryn
2003-07-12, 03:40
of course satan exists you crackheads. i AM satan