Which is better?

A)Beliveing in God/Christianity.

B)Atheism/No god, Big Bang

A)Heaven/Perfection, an afterlife

B)Nothing/ no afterlife

A)Believing in absolutes/evil is real Murder wrong

B)Believing that nothing is absolute/no evil murder ok

A)Generosity

B)fend for yourself

A)Love, Hope, Faith

B)Whatever u want even if it's hate, murder, death, theft, rape, etc.

I want just a little feedback.

The Scavenger

Well I'd go with all B. I've never really believed in any god. But I wouldn't disrespect anyone that does.

Unlike the media atheists are alot nicer then...well the media makes us look.

Also I would rather have A but I KNOW thats not true, I would be living I lie and id rather live a dark horrible world then a fake wonderland.

I Belive killing people are wrong, im a atheist, never saying atheists dont kill but the fact is ALOT more christians kill then atheists, plus most of the wars are OVER religion, infact in the bible it does talk about alot of "smiting".

I have a girlfriend I buy things for her, she does not fend for herself. I am a very generous to people I live.

I love someone, does that mean I belive in god? I know alot of christians that hate, I am sure alot murder's and people that DIE are christians, im pretty sure it will be a VERY long time tell a christian never dies.

I couldn't choose between either.

One could not believe in definite good and evil and still not approve of murder, for example.

quote: the fact is ALOT more christians kill then atheists

The fact is there are ALOT more theists than atheists.

The fact is there ALOT more Christians than atheists.

shorten your questions...

Which is better?

a) belief

b) nothing

"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."

I choose the one eye. Belief, and it's subsequent "faith" (willful blindness), is not useful or desireable in determining validity of said claims.

in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king... this is false the people wouldnt know the truth becuz they cant see becuz theyre blind there would be a blind uproar people would just be whipping anythings ass and raping chickens when they think theyre raping girls etc etc

quote:Originally posted by [eXo5]Metal:

in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king... this is false the people wouldnt know the truth becuz they cant see becuz theyre blind there would be a blind uproar people would just be whipping anythings ass and raping chickens when they think theyre raping girls etc etc



Sweet Christ...

...

...

...

That actually somehow made sense.

Well, yeah but you gotta look at the 1)freedom of thought or 2) social control aspect.

But I guess you know science cannot really DISprove anything, just sort of provide a boolean argument saying something is not something else. Maybe our tiny little feeble monkey brains just can't grasp the concept. Has your dog gotten the grasp of thermodynamics yet?

Why does moral sense suggest religion? I don't need a deity to tell me that treating people like shit is wrong.

I have no problem with theists. I have a problem with people who make assumptions. The Debate is what matters, not truth.

A/B comparisons ignore the fact that life is non-bolean. We are humans, we ask questions.... no body else seems to answer.

quote:just be whipping anythings ass and raping chickens at least it's only chickens..

[This message has been edited by Dr Kamme (edited 07-09-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

The fact is there are ALOT more theists than atheists.

The fact is there ALOT more Christians than atheists.

Fact: There are a lot more Buddhists and Hindus than Christians.

Scavenger: Your little quiz is all black and white, no shades of grey. I fall in between somewhere on most of them.

Questions:

1. I believe in a higher power, the Big Bang, but not Christianity.

2. Reincarnation, baby.

3. Nothing is absolute. Murder is wrong. Karmic laws apply.

4. Sometimes you have to be a bit selfish, but in general, generosity is the way to go.

5. A.

I am pretty much with Phantom here.

In my book, god(or the Great Spirit)created and sustains this local universe; however, he was grossly libeled in the bible. God does not judge or punish--he is not like a celestial Santa Claus.

God does not forgive because he cannot be offended, hence no need to forgive.

God has no preferences regarding our behavior, so long as it conforms with our best conception of ourself.

There is no satan, no hell.

Reincarnation is a reality, but for the purpose of learning, not rewards/punishment

Remember I did not point toward one way or the other, and I just used christianity as an example, granted i did not make that very clear but oh well. Anyways I did not ask even your personal beliefs I simple asked which was better. now to me i would probably choose all A's because if it were all B's or even some B's my question is "What the hell are we here for" How did a "Big Bang" create such a complex organism as Human beings with the inherent capability to know right and wrong. Now don't get me wrong I'm now preaching Christianity here I'm just saying that most of the Logical evidence points to a "Supreme Being" a "Creator" or "Outside Source" whatever you wish to call it but I am of the opinion that there is a right and a wrong, so atheism would be out of the question for ME.

The reason for this is that if there is a supreme being then he/she must have etched on our souls ( yes we have souls) a moral code, almost like a rule book which we can either choose to follow or choose not to and of course face the consequences.

Of course there is a chance that i'm wrong and so what if a I am. According to atheists we just die, we fizzle out, but if I'm right and they are wrong, then I go to an afterlife of bliss and they go to an eternity of torture. I am not trying to convert anybody to any religion and yes I know that many wars our over religion but thats just human nature, people start wars over anything they can think of. I am just trying to get people to think about what they believe in and just have a little friendly conversation.

The Scavenger

P.S.

I never said Christians don't die, it was two separate question that u put together.

The Scavenger

quote: Fact: There are a lot more Buddhists and Hindus than Christians

Thanks for strengthening my case...

quote:Originally posted by Scavenger:

Which is better?

A)Beliveing in God/Christianity.

B)Atheism/No god, Big Bang

A)Heaven/Perfection, an afterlife

B)Nothing/ no afterlife

A)Believing in absolutes/evil is real Murder wrong

B)Believing that nothing is absolute/no evil murder ok

A)Generosity

B)fend for yourself

A)Love, Hope, Faith

B)Whatever u want even if it's hate, murder, death, theft, rape, etc.

I want just a little feedback.

The Scavenger

1. Since I would be lying to myself if I said A, my answer is B.

2. All I know for sure is what I experiance now, so I do not want to waste the time I have in life thinking about what happens after death. My answer is again, B.

3. I really hate it when theists say that you can't have morals if you're atheist. If you think about it, atheists have higher morals than theists because we don't need the fear of an eternity of torture just to know and do what is right for mankind. I choose C: Knowing that murder is wrong because it deprives someone of experiancing life, not because some scary demons will be burning my ass for infinity.

4. Charity is not limited to theists. I believe in being kind to people because it makes life better for everyone. I choose C: Be kind because it is satisfying to help humanity.

5. I am all for Love and Hope because it fuels the desire for life. Love gives people something to live for and hope lets them believe they will find it. As for faith, it is motivation for an empty shell of a life that only hopes for death and feels no love in life. Faith causes murder, death, theft, and rape. Haven't you ever read the bible? It tells you to kill people who don't believe in the same thing as you. How is that good? And you're forgetting the crusades, the salem witch trials and the spanish inquisition. Not to mention september 11th.

You need to re-evaluate your morals.

quote:Originally posted by Scavenger:

Remember I did not point toward one way or the other, and I just used christianity as an example, granted i did not make that very clear but oh well

The questions sound very biased to me.

quote:Originally posted by Scavenger:

Anyways I did not ask even your personal beliefs I simple asked which was better.

The questions were about peoples personal beliefs, so of course the answers will be in the like.

quote:Originally posted by Scavenger:

now to me i would probably choose all A's because if it were all B's or even some B's my question is "What the hell are we here for" How did a "Big Bang" create such a complex organism as Human beings with the inherent capability to know right and wrong.

What are we here for? Life. Experiances, happiness, sex, art, music. Everybody has to find what they life for. Why we are here doesn't matter, just that we are. Right and wrong are subject to perspective. You are a very black and white person in a grey universe.

quote:Originally posted by Scavenger:

Now don't get me wrong I'm now preaching Christianity here I'm just saying that most of the Logical evidence points to a "Supreme Being" a "Creator" or "Outside Source" whatever you wish to call it but I am of the opinion that there is a right and a wrong, so atheism would be out of the question for ME.

No. Logical evidence points in the opposite direction. There is absolutely no physical evidence to support god's existence. Atheists do have a system of right and wrong. Right is accepting everyone for who they are. Right is helping others without expecting something in return. Right is living life without hurting anyone. Wrong is believing that others are lesser than you simply becuase they don't believe the same as you do. Wrong is killing people because they disagree with you. Wrong is forcing people into slavery because they look different, or were in your way. Wrong is only helping people for the reward of eternal life, or the fear of eternal death.

quote:Originally posted by Scavenger:

Of course there is a chance that i'm wrong and so what if a I am. According to atheists we just die, we fizzle out, but if I'm right and they are wrong, then I go to an afterlife of bliss and they go to an eternity of torture. I am not trying to convert anybody to any religion and yes I know that many wars our over religion but thats just human nature, people start wars over anything they can think of. I am just trying to get people to think about what they believe in and just have a little friendly conversation.

The Scavenger

What if the islamic Jihads are right? You still end up being tortured for all your after life. What if Mormons are right? Then you will again still have to face eternal hellfire. whatever you say, it's a gamble. No matter what you believe someone will say that you will be tortured for all eternity because of it.

You don't seem to friendly to me. You are purposely insulting to atheists.

Remember keep an open mind to all beliefs. I was wondering are any of you social relativists???

The Scavenger

quote:Originally posted by Scavenger:

Remember keep an open mind to all beliefs. I was wondering are any of you social relativists???

The Scavenger

The blade cuts both ways. If we are to respect your beliefs, you should respect ours by finding out the truth about atheism before you go off spouting bullshit.

I choose the sky...

Ahh could you tell me what did i say about atheists i only gave a black and white, A/B, quiz I only mentioned atheism in question #1 and also when did i say each question was related to the other questions. You choose to make the quiz a personal attack against your beliefs i held no sway over your opinions. So please remind what was bullshit

and how was I spouting it?

The Scavenger

Ok Ok let me redo my little quiz

Which is better?

1.

A)atheism

B)monotheism

C)polytheism

2.

A)Heaven

B)Hell

C)Nothing

3.

A)Absolutes

B)No Absolutes

4.

A)Generosity

B)Miserly

C)Somewhere in Between

5.

A)Love, Hope, Faith

B)Hate, Despair, Doubt

quote:Originally posted by Scavenger:

Ok Ok let me redo my little quiz

Which is better?

1.

A)atheism

B)monotheism

C)polytheism

2.

A)Heaven

B)Hell

C)Nothing

3.

A)Absolutes

B)No Absolutes

4.

A)Generosity

B)Miserly

C)Somewhere in Between

5.

A)Love, Hope, Faith

B)Hate, Despair, Doubt

Better, but 5 is still a little off. How about Love, Hope, Skepticism?

My answers to the newly modified questions:

1. A

2. C

3. B

4. A

5. C, Love, Hope, Skepticism and Realism

So what u r telling me is that your answer for number 3 is no absolutes is better than absolutes??

The Scavenger

quote:Originally posted by Scavenger:

So what u r telling me is that your answer for number 3 is no absolutes is better than absolutes??

The Scavenger

There are no absolutes because good and evil are subject to perspective. My philosophy is do what you want, so long as it doesn't hurt anybody else or interfere with their free will.

Ahh "Do what thou wilt" the famous quote from the poet Aleister Crowley.

So what you r saying is there are absolutely no absolutes???

The Scavenger

quote:Originally posted by Scavenger:

Ahh "Do what thou wilt" the famous quote from the poet Aleister Crowley.

So what you r saying is there are absolutely no absolutes???

The Scavenger

No, I said there are no MORAL absolutes because morality is subject to opinion. There are many facts that can be considered absolute, but none that deal with defining the difference between good and evil. That's a fact.



[This message has been edited by lady_dw (edited 07-12-2003).]

Is murder morally wrong???

The Scavenger

quote:Originally posted by Scavenger:

Is murder morally wrong???

The Scavenger

In my opinion, yes.

So what u r saying is that if someone decided to murder you, they should not be punished because it was their opinion that you should die. For punishment denotes wrong doing and in order to punish then a law must be broken. And what is a law?? It is the defense a moral absolute which is set about so that people will obey for the good of society.

The Scavenger

quote:Originally posted by Scavenger:

So what u r saying is that if someone decided to murder you, they should not be punished because it was their opinion that you should die. For punishment denotes wrong doing and in order to punish then a law must be broken. And what is a law?? It is the defense a moral absolute which is set about so that people will obey for the good of society.

The Scavenger

I agree that the community needs officialised morality when it comes to harming other people, but in the mind, there are no moral absolutes. Just because it is their opinion doesn't mean it isn't detrimental to society. The opinions of the Nazis are detrimental to society and should be stopped, but you can't control people's minds. The trouble is defining the difference between what is good and bad for society as a whole without impeding on other's rights.

[This message has been edited by lady_dw (edited 07-12-2003).]

So what about drug use thats not detrimental to society as a whole does that mean we should legalize all drugs so that we don't infringe on the rights of the drug dealers and users. And what about child pornography or molestation that doesn't affect society as a whole so what about that?

The Scavenger

Drug use is detrimental to society.

quote:Originally posted by [eXo5]Metal:

in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king... this is false the people wouldnt know the truth becuz they cant see becuz theyre blind there would be a blind uproar people would just be whipping anythings ass and raping chickens when they think theyre raping girls etc etc

LMAO

quote:Originally posted by Scavenger:

Which is better?

A)Beliveing in God/Christianity.

B)Atheism/No god, Big Bang

A)Heaven/Perfection, an afterlife

B)Nothing/ no afterlife

A)Believing in absolutes/evil is real Murder wrong

B)Believing that nothing is absolute/no evil murder ok

A)Generosity

B)fend for yourself

A)Love, Hope, Faith

B)Whatever u want even if it's hate, murder, death, theft, rape, etc.

I want just a little feedback.

The Scavenger

Hm. These really don't suit me at all. Jsut because I don't accept god doesn't mean I don't accept love and hope, but if someone does, it's not for me to judge. I may not be religious, but I am spiritual. I just don't look beyond what I know and feel in order to get the fundementals of life and happiness.

quote:Originally posted by Scavenger:

So what about drug use thats not detrimental to society as a whole does that mean we should legalize all drugs so that we don't infringe on the rights of the drug dealers and users. And what about child pornography or molestation that doesn't affect society as a whole so what about that?

The Scavenger

Child pornography and molestation is wrong because it infringes on the child's rights and hurts them. Drugs should be legal. Just put the same restrictions on them as alcohol and tobacco. This way, they only hurt themselves and if they die due to overdose, then it will rid the world of one more idiot.

[This message has been edited by lady_dw (edited 07-14-2003).]

Ah but what about the rights and opinions of the weirdo thats photographing those children if there are no moral absolutes and its not detrimental to socirty as a whole because those children make up a small fraction of society and it doesn't fall under a need for officialised morality.

By the way Vajlea I never said the question were related it was you who took it that way so tell me Which is better? It's that simple.

The Scavenger

P.S.

If u r going to reply to a post make sure u read the other replies to make sure ur argument hasn't already been refuted or that ur question hasn't already been answered

[This message has been edited by Scavenger (edited 07-14-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Scavenger:

Ah but what about the rights and opinions of the weirdo thats photographing those children if there are no moral absolutes and its not detrimental to socirty as a whole because those children make up a small fraction of society and it doesn't fall under a need for officialised morality.



He doesn't deserve the right to hurt children. Are you saying that he does? And yes it is detrimental to society because that child, who could have been an important part of society, is hurt in a way so s/he'll never be the same.

i agree there are no moral absolutes.

HOWEVER,

for a society to function, there must be rules that said society follows and agrees upon to remain stable.

"So what u r saying is that if someone decided to murder you, they should not be punished because it was their opinion that you should die."

that's a feeble excuse.

what's actually being said by no moral absolutes is that, nothing is preventing that guy from murdering somebody.

as nothing is preventing us from reacting to that murder in any way we see fit.

"there's no reason to hit a woman. shit. there's a reason to kick an old man down a flight of stairs. just don't do it"~chris rock

"So what about drug use thats not detrimental to society as a whole does that mean we should legalize all drugs so that we don't infringe on the rights of the drug dealers and users."

and what about the drug use that is detrimental to society, yet is perfectly legal i.e. alcohol, tobacco?

"And what about child pornography or molestation that doesn't affect society as a whole so what about that?"

at what age do YOU consider it child pornography or molestation, some cultures the age of 12 is perfectly alright to get it on.

what about cannibalistic societies, atrocious to us, perfectly NATURAL AND NORMAL for them.

or do you consider yourself morally superior to others scavenger?

by who's authority can you make this claim?

your own?

Get over yourselves! Your sinfull pride is what keeps u the fools u r u believe that u and the human race r the 'end all' that as long as it doesn't hurt somebody that its all right but my question is "Who's to say whats right and wrong?" If there are no moral absolutes on which to base the rules then no one can say what is right or wrong because to them whatever they say is the right way and if someone says something else contradictory who's to say he's wrong? If you can't understand what I'm saying then you are a small minded fool who has no real belief system and if the world were made up of people like u then we'd all be a bunch of blood-thirsty savages making our own rules individually as we go along. That is the best evidence that points to a moral code, toward the existence of moral absolutes. And no I do not condone child pornography or drug use and if u think i do then you r a fool. I have kept my faith quiet so that u would listen because I know that u will think I'm doing this because I am some kind of fool to believe in a Personal God that loves and Cares about his creation and is saddened because when he gave us freewill he hoped that we would use it for good and for his will but instead we went directly against his will and sinned dooming man kind to an eternity of unhappiness and loss until the time a saviour came to give himself as a perfect sacrifice and three days later rise from the grave and then after 40 days of preaching and performing miracle ascend into heaven. If you will read the Bible it doesn't talk just about 'smitting' or punishment, read the New Testment it show Gods great love for us and his wish that we would come to our senses and come to him by our own freewill.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instaed of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." John 3:16-20

Thats right I'm a Christian. And if you don't like it its TOO DAMN BAD.

The Scavenger

quote:Originally posted by Scavenger:

Which is better?

A)Beliveing in God/Christianity.

B)Atheism/No god, Big Bang

A)Heaven/Perfection, an afterlife

B)Nothing/ no afterlife

A)Believing in absolutes/evil is real Murder wrong

B)Believing that nothing is absolute/no evil murder ok

A)Generosity

B)fend for yourself

A)Love, Hope, Faith

B)Whatever u want even if it's hate, murder, death, theft, rape, etc.

I want just a little feedback.

The Scavenger

1. A and B, God and the Big Bang.

2. A

3. yo?

4. Depends, it could go either way.

5. A

scavenger you missed the entire fucking point of my post.

i could care less if you're christian.

you could not argue one of my points, just go off on a holier than thou tirade and blame us for "believe that u and the human race r the 'end all'" the very thing you're doing.

get your head out of your ass.

"but my question is "Who's to say whats right and wrong?""

if you'd have actually read my post you'd have your fucking answer.

"for a society to function, there must be rules that said society follows and agrees upon to remain stable."

those rules should be made by the occupants of said society.

if you want to live in a drug free environment you sure as hell aren't going to build a house on ganja mountain are you?

no.

you're going to surround yourself with those whose values are as similar to yours as possible.

forget that claptrap opposites attract, like attracts like for common ground.

in america we lock up jeffrey dahmer, in another culture he'd be the best house guest around.

are we right, are they wrong?

let me quote some christianity for you.

"let him without sin cast the first stone."

how dare you compare yourself to god and think that you have his wisdom to praise or condemn the actions of another.

remember why you're in church on sunday and not saturday, because it gives you a clear conscience if you fall off your barstool saturday night and confess on sunday, instead of having to endure the guilt of your transgression WHICH YOU CHOSE all week long.

There is no "right/wrong" "good/evil", only perception.

Who's to say whats right or wrong? Well how bout nobody except God, Love thy Neighbor as thyself, throw out the old testament the reason that that is part of the bible is because it points to Jesus. The problem people have with someone telling them right or wrong is that they can't face facts. And let me remind you of something. A moral absolute is a universal truth, murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, Giving to the needy is right, so on and so forth. A moral absolute can't prevent aperson from doing something, and why is that??? Oh yeah that little factor of freewill mixed with a sinful human nature. Those don't go well together do they?

I do not believe I am morally superior to others I am just trying to get u to see things from a different perspective. Also Izzy I wasn't just answering to you're post but obviously you think I was so I made some valid points. But anyway mostly I was talking to lady_dw who says that as long as it doesn't hurt someone its alright. And anyway I was in a pissy mood last night so i kind of went off on everybody.

The Scavenger

All faiths, and non-faiths try to explain the universe and our existence.

Eventually the gap will be bridged somehow.

"A moral absolute is a universal truth, murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, Giving to the needy is right, so on and so forth."

is a father evil for murdering the molestor of his child?

is a starving man wrong for stealing food from those who don't need it.

the only time i like dealing with absolutes is in 2+2=4.

any other thing can be justified by the individual for his/her own reasoning.

should the two above be shunned and outcast and labeled as evil?

most of the people i encounter who envision the world with absolutes often hold a type of double standard.

I believe we are all evil. A sin is a sin no matter if its a little white lie or a mass killing. A sin is a sin is a sin. It is humans who have degerees of separation with those types of things. Now the father who killed teh molester of his child in our eyes would be justified in doing so. An eye for an eye type thing but Do not judge lest u be judged

But of course shit happens so ask Gods forgiveness.

No can be shunned because they sin because we all have sinned.

Also that starving man thing, yes he is wrong in stealing but he would not be stealing if everybody were generous. You say that couldn't happen but if the world were filled with TRUE PRACTICING christians then we would be a alot better off.

Many supposed christians screw it up for the real christians by there hypocritical actions but don't let that blind u from an eternity with God, an eternity of happiness.

BTW IzzyReele I go to church on Saturday Nights, Sometin=mes Sunday mornings. I know it is very hypocritical to sin all week then repent but the only way a person can be perfect is if he were Jesus Christ. But the thing is because of His sacrifice we are perfect in Gods eyes if and only if we repent daily, not weekly, not monthly, but daily.

Am I your double standard?? I think not.

The Scavenger

P.S. 2+2=4 is false, take physics you'll see what I mean, 2+2 can be anything.

ok, ignore the user name for a sec here...

why is it that atheism is constantly associated with everything "sinful"...i mean, sure, there are people who don't believe in a god, and thus tend to do evil shit because nothing threatens their after life (cause they believe there is none...duh), but there are other "atheists" who just chose not to have a god, but instead believe in the philosophies that the religions teach, which the "true" followers often ignore.(and before flaming me on this, realize that there probably IS a difference wherever you live)so really...why is it that atheism is automatically considered un-ethical?



but then again. nevermind, ignore tis entire post, cause its just one huge flame against bible thumpers http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

http://www.minitru.org/llf/jesoborg.gif (http://www.minitru.org/llf/jesoborg.gif)

It's the whole "Jesus of Borg" mentality. If you're not with us; you're against us. That which is not of the collective is sinful and must be preached the gospel (assimilated via. nanite [bible] injection) to mend it's evil ways.

"That they all may be one; as thou Father art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us..." -- Jesus (John 17:21)

"You will be assimilated...made ONE with the Borg...Freedom is irrelevant...Self Determination is irrelevant...You will comply...Resistance is Futile." -- The Borg.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 07-17-2003).]

Alright, look, Rust, Christians kill more than atheists do because....They're are more of them yes. Not because of faith though, because the faith contradicts it. I am stuck in terms of your quiz but I will go with belief based on my experiences so far.

Christians Sin, I'm not saying we are perfect or better than the atheists, the buddhist, the zoroastrians, the New Age Groups, etc, etc. What I am saying is that those chosen lifestyles are wrong. The only way we can be saved is not by good deeds alone but by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, we must repent. God loves us He doesn't want us tortured for eternity. Now wait one sec here...

We think of torture as physical pain but in the afterlife we will be purely spiritual so therefore the only torture that would be probable is if we were locked out of paradise but we knew that if in our physical life we could change our stubborn ways and didn't then we could be in heaven. So the only torture would be to know that you had made the biggest mistake nit to choose to follow God. In other words it would be spiritual regret on a very very large scale.

The Scavenger