When you think about it, most religious belief (exluding gnostics) is just a complete guess about the existance (or nonexistance) of God.

Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc. are all based on "Faith", you have to have "Faith" in God, Allah, G-d, because he's not gonna come down just to prove his existance to you. There's no concrete evidence for it, so it's pretty much an ancient guess which is still followed by everyone nowadays.

The flip side of the coin, Atheism, usually follows the logical reasoning "We have no proof that there's a God, until something is proven to exist, it's logical to assume it doesn't exist." This makes sense, except (as religious people like to use as a defense) there's also no concrete evidence that he doesn't exist and there aren't really any truly concrete scientific explanations for the creation of the universe. None that can be proven or varified anyway.

Agnosticism is really the only belief which is truly right, since it doesn't make any assertations about the existance of God.

I'm not really sure what the point of this post was, or if i actually made any sense or not. I guess i'm just sick of people calling all the 13 year olds who rant on about atheism "ignorant" when religions are just as ignorant, hell, we're all ignorant when you think about it, just agnostics like to profess their ignorance instead of pretending to know everything.

It all boils down to either Gods don't exist at all or they are but they are hiding themselves very well.

If they do exist and are concealing themselves, then they obviously don't find us having knowledge of their existence to be a paramount priority, and it doesn't matter at that point because they have no impact on anyone's life.

Haddock; yes, totally. I was always an atheist till I realised how this cannot be justified. Welcome to the Sceptic World.

You are incorrect regarding gnosticism

It is ,by definition and practice, the direct knowledge of/contact with spirit. And it is no big deal, I do it every day.

But is it not interesting, that someone who claims to talk to god a lot (pray) is said to be devout, pious, while someone who says that god talks back is labeled as psychotic?

What if God tells you to kill people to further his holy agenda?

I don't trust people that say the speak directly with one or more God(s) and/or say they are doing the said deitie(s) will because it too often coincides with their own.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

[B]What if God tells you to kill people to further his holy agenda?

I don't trust people that say the speak directly with one or more God(s) and/or say they are doing the said deitie(s) will because it too often coincides with their own.

DM...you must first view God as you would a father. And us....well, like his children. I don't know that you have children but consider this. Would your father ask you to do things that he knew would cause you harm? How about discomfort. Absolutely no. God would never ask anyone too kill anybody. For any reason. Your father probably did all he could to teach you right from wrong, to steer you down a path that would cause you to be happy, all the time...if he could. He would never want you to experience misery or saddness. This is what God wants from us. To listen to his rules, (like in your house you had to live by your dad's rules) right? Those who do not. Well, eventually God will have reached that point, as my dad did so often. Then there was no turning back...he had warned me over and over. Told me of the consequences and now had to carry out the punishment.

And those who talk to the dead, other gods, or spirits are viewed with disgust by God...as he so states in the bible. Leviticus 20:6

Dark, check out the movie Frailty if you haven't seen it, it has to do with what you just posted (God asking someone to kill). Great movie.

quote:Originally posted by AlwaysTired:



Would your father ask you to do things that he knew would cause you harm? How about discomfort. Absolutely no. God would never ask anyone too kill anybody. For any reason. Your father probably did all he could to teach you right from wrong, to steer you down a path that would cause you to be happy, all the time...if he could. He would never want you to experience misery or saddness. This is what God wants from us. To listen to his rules, (like in your house you had to live by your dad's rules) right? Those who do not. Well, eventually God will have reached that point, as my dad did so often. Then there was no turning back...he had warned me over and over. Told me of the consequences and now had to carry out the punishment.



I'm too tired to make a speech so I'll just give a little example: the story of Job. What did he do to deserve God's (aka El Sicko Fucko) unholy wrath?

Ahem, discuss amongst yourself.

I have read the story of Job. And it was not God's unholy wrath....It was Satan who was doing all the "wrathing". And if you would've read the story, you would know why God allowed it to happen, and then what God did for Job after His point had been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Tin, you should read the thread entitled "The book of Job"

[This message has been edited by AlwaysTired (edited 07-13-2003).]

I don't think it is a guess. I think it is more of a test. There are evidences pointing to certain things. From what I see it points mostly to Christianity, and the stuff that doesn't is what the test is.

everything we say we know is our nearest best guess. so we know nothing: so instead of arguing about things that dont directly effect our lives we should argue about things that do, but since we as humans think we know everything that does effect us directly: why not argue about things that dont. i am not quite sure wat was the point in that post but ah well

There might be a god and there might not be, to tell you the truth what is really stopping us is the human psyche, it tricks you damnit! and them Gods just laugh, who knows what happens when we die...who knows.

quote:Originally posted by malaria:

Dark, check out the movie Frailty if you haven't seen it, it has to do with what you just posted (God asking someone to kill). Great movie.

Watched it a couple of weeks ago. They were all fucking nuts.

It reminds me of a certain episode of the twilight zone, though. This man is in the hospital, and they think he's a hypochondriac. He has been tested and tested and tested and they don't find any source to his illlness. He says he has an illness.

But the catch is other people start catching this psychosomatic illness as well. So how do you treat an illness that doesn't exist? then it dawns on them. The best way would be a placebo! What better way to treat an imagined illness that spreads to others?!?

They tell him a Meteor struck in Michigan, and it had a super-rare substance in it which they used to create a vaccine for the illness (they just gave a placebo and made the whole story up). He says something to the effect of "Yeah, it's too bad that that meteor that would withstand entry into the Earth's atmosphere and survive and impact with enough of it left over of the substance intact caused an ice age". He says a meteor that they could get the substance from would have to cause an ice age.

They all think "Ok, he's just playing along with the placebo events we told him" and everyone is cured. The medical staff is going to keep him there for a couple of days for observation, and when they go to walk outside, bam, they see the world has turned into an ice-age.