Part 1

The greatest sin is pride. Pride leads to all other sins.

At first it is stated that Job was blameless and upright, he feared God and shunned evil. He was the greatest man among all the people of the East. He praised God every day.

Well, Satan saw this and said to God that the only reason Job was faithful because God had protected his household and everthing Job had as well as blessing all work done by Job's hand. And Satan said that Job would surely curse God to his face if everthing Job had was taken from him. So God gave every possesion of Jobs over to Satan and Satan destroyed his livestock, sheep and servants, camels, and his children.

"At this Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship and said:

'Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised.'

In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing."

-Job 1:20-22

---To be continued...

The Scavenger

Scavenger, that is one of my favorite stories. What makes it so great and amazing is this....Job had no idea that Satan even existed. He knew nothing of the things that that we can learn from the bible. The bible wasn't even around yet!!!

Scavenger, you are one of the few here with whom I tend to agree on most of what you ask and reply. Do you belong to the Truth?

[This message has been edited by AlwaysTired (edited 07-13-2003).]

On the contrary pride is not the precursor to sin.

Job took great pride in his love for God.

This is one subject so misunderstood and interupted man.

If you profess a Sacred Holy Truth make damn sure you support it with sound sensible logic.

Why would pride make Job mad at God?!

Job is all about unbridled love for God not about pride and not having it stopped hatred at God due to Satans doings.



Sorry but to your proposal I beg to differ.

To summarize the book of Job in 10 steps:

1: God makes a bar bet with Satan and says Satan can't win Job over to the dark side.

2: Satan says "Put up or shut up".

3: God puts up and lets Satan fuck with Job to the brink of insanity and the edge of death. After all, there are things much worse than death, and Satan knows and applies all of them.

4: Job curses the day he was born, but still doesn't throw in the towel.

5: Satan says "Well I'll be damned"

6: God says "You are, remember that time you tried to backstab my all-knowing ass eons ago?"

7: Satan then says "Oh yeah. Well why did you even fucking create me with such character traits if you knew why I was going to backstab you, and furthermore, what is the point of this test with Job since you already fucking know how it was going to turn out an eternity in advance?"

8: Theological debate between conflicting attributes of God and alleged free will, and God's conflicting nature ensue and Satan points out on so many levels how the Christian God's attributes are contradictory not only to free will and much of reality, but to themselves, which makes God logically impossible.

9: Theological debate gets cut off because God shall not be questioned, so he silences Satan and sends him back to the pit. God then notices that he forgot all about Job and that, in the amount of time that has elapsed since he and Satan started arguing, Job has managed to do even better than he was on God's blessings, except this time it is all by himself and with no divine internention whatsoever.

10: God then says "Well, that settles that dispute" and Job, outliving his usefulness and no longer proving a point for God, living the best part of his life, is visited by the angel of Death on the spot, as God ordered Death to do, without explanation or notice. Death is even mentally questioning why God would have his tried, tested, and conclusively proven most faithful servant ever killed after he has proven himself, but quickly abandons that line of thinking because God can read his thoughts, and furthermore, it would be to question his unyielding unswerving blind faith in the system (God).

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 07-14-2003).]

YAY

Job was noy mad at God he still worshipped and praised God. Job was considered a Holy man and he came to realize this and take pride that he was better than his fellow man therefore Job deserved his punishment but in the end when God finally spoke to Job didn't Job become content and happy even though his questions to God were not answered and all his possesion were gone and his life hell?

This showed us that even though bad things do happen it is to a purpose and that God is still there standing beside us.

Take for example a man walking through a forest and coming across a cacoon which at that time is about to open. Now in the cacoon there is a little hole and the butterfly is struggling to get out so the man sits and watches for what seems like eternity and he becomes impatient so he makes the hole of the cacoon a little bigger and in no time the butterfly fall out and lands on the ground, but instaed of being beautiful it is grossly deformed its body is engourged and iyts wing are shrivelled. Now the reason for this is because the man made the hole in the cacoon larger. The work that the butterfly goes through is nature way of forcing blood from the body into the wings. The work was for the butterflies own good and the man doomed it by making that moment in its life easier. It is the same way for us, we go through hardships in order to make us better people and it brings us closer to God.

By the way AlwaysTired what do you mean by the Truth?

The Scavenger

p.s. Dark_Magneto u make no sense what so ever read the book of Job and u will see that u r way of track God does not forget about Job, neither does he leave him. I really don't enjoy debating with fools who have no knowledge of the topic.

Right on, Magneto!

I studied the BOJ in depth 40 years ago, and still remember how appalled I was to see god portrayed as such an asshole. That is, arbitrary, cruel, and egoistic.

DarkMag....You are way off!! You should spend more time reading the bible than you do talking about it. Most everything you stated about the story, was done so in your own opinionated point of view. You have to read it for what it says, not throw in your own rendition. God did not make a bar bet with Satan. God noticed that Satan had been wandering about the earth, and God "noticed" that Satan was paying extra close attention to that particular servant of God. God then questioned him. Something like So...I've noticed that you've had your eye on my excellent servant Job...for a while. Satan responded by saying something to the effect of....He's only doing it because you give him everything. God said that Job would never do against God's will no matter what he gave or didn't give him. Satan challenged God, and God simply gave Satan the opportunity to prove Him wrong. God knew that His authority was being challenged. The angels in heaven were aware of this challenge made by Satan. They wanted to know the outcome as well. God can know everything there is to know....but he chooses not to. Like a parent to a child, we give them free will. So does God. God allows us to make our own decisions. He may know what the out come will be....just like a parent who sees their child jumping on the bed. They know that if they continue, they will probably fall off and hurt themselves. God does the same sort of thing, he doesn't have to, but he does. Satan and the other angels of God have free will too. That is why Satan went his own way. And took a few other angels with him.

[This message has been edited by AlwaysTired (edited 07-15-2003).]

That whole "butterfly/cocoon" analogy fails on so many levels. Mainly because man does not have the power to alter reality and make it so the butterfly would get blood to it's wings even without the struggle.

Suffering in the world only exists for one reason if there is a god. That reson being that god mandated it. Everything could work out fine without torment, pain, and suffering if you are all-powerful. You could create a world exactly as it is to day, sans all the bad shit. The only reason a world you created would not be like that would be because you were either imperfect and failed, or you specifically wanted pain, misery, torment, and suffering to be part of your world because you were a spiteful asshole.

AlwaysTired, Scavenger, most of what I wrote was in satire, like so:

http://images.salon.com/comics/boll/2001/01/18/boll/story.gif (http://images.salon.com/comics/boll/2001/01/18/boll/story.gif)

But I did point out some cruel ironies. God has nothing to prove to Satan, and they both know it. Satan says "Oh, well, the only reason he's doing that is because you're blessing him". God could have staged the whole thing and removed Job's power to shun God completely, and Satan, Job, and the reader would never know the difference.

To put it simply, the entire fiasco was not neccessary by any means. He's not compelled to prove anything to Satan because he could rig the whole thing without anyone but him knowing. It just served to show an example of completely wanton and gratuitous suffering that wouldn't have naturally occurred if it wasn't for god's divine intervention fucking job up.

And on top of that, when everythig is said and done, Job gets a little brief stint of the good life, everything is proceeding entirely without incident, and then God, the divine fucker-upper of plans, breaker of hopes, and shatterer of dreams, kills him.

Job: *Makes plans*

God: *Looks at Job's plans* "Ohohoho! You think you're gonna do that?... AAAHAHAHAHAHAA! Whoo! Ahh, man. *wipes tear* Not if I have anything to say about it, which I do. Permission denied! Counterspell! You die now!

Job: *Drops dead*

"After Job prayed for his friends the Lord made him prosperous again and gave him twice as much as he had before. All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring.

The Lord blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first. He had 14000 sheep, 6000 camels, and 1000 yoke of oxen and 1000 donkeys. He also had seven sons and three daughters. The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah, and the third Keren-Happuch. Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job's daughters, and their father granted them inheritance along with their brothers.

After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. And so he died, old and full of years."

Job 42:10-16

Need I say more to refute u Dark_Magneto on your argument that:

"And on top of that, when everythig is said and done, Job gets a little brief stint of the good life, everything is proceeding entirely without incident, and then God, the divine fucker-upper of plans, breaker of hopes, and shatterer of dreams, kills him.

Job: *Makes plans*

God: *Looks at Job's plans* "Ohohoho! You think you're gonna do that?... AAAHAHAHAHAHAA! Whoo! Ahh, man. *wipes tear* Not if I have anything to say about it, which I do. Permission denied! Counterspell! You die now!

Job: *Drops dead*"

If you r going to argue something make sure u know how to provide evidence to support your assertion

The Scavenger

Scavenger is correct. Job went on to lead a life that anyone would be envious of. And a long one at that.

"Job: *Makes plans*

God: *Looks at Job's plans* "Ohohoho! You think you're gonna do that?... AAAHAHAHAHAHAA! Whoo! Ahh, man. *wipes tear* Not if I have anything to say about it, which I do. Permission denied! Counterspell! You die now!" Saying this truly shows the lack of your knowledge.

Scavenger,

"They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring." God did not bring anything upon Job. Remember, Satan did. "But for a change, thrust out your hand, please, and touch everything he has and see if he will not curse you to your very face."

God then says, "Look! Everything that he has is in YOUR HAND. Only against him himself do not thrust out your hand!" Job 1:11,12 Meaning....do what you want to all of the things he had been blessed with, but not to his physical being. God was in fact limiting what Satan could do. God did not just stand aside.





[This message has been edited by AlwaysTired (edited 07-15-2003).]

Let's look at some highlights in Job:

1. God asks where Satan has been lately (apparently God didn't know), and Satan answered saying, "From walking to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down on it." This verse inspired Mark Twain's delightful "Letters From the Earth.". 1:7, 2:

2 God gives Satan power over all that Job possesses. 1:12

3. God and Satan play a little game with Job. God allows Satan to torment Job, just to see how he will react. 2:3-7

4. Job is the brother of dragons. 30:29

5. I guess this fire-breathing monster is supposed to be God. 41:14-24

6. God (or his contractor, Satan) sends a wind that kills Job's sons and daughters. 1:19

7. Because of God's cruel wager with Satan, Job curses the day he was born. 3:1-3, 11

8. Job complains that God "multiplies his [Job's] wounds without cause, ... destroys the perfect and the wicked, ... will laugh at the trial of the innocent, ... and covereth the faces of the judges." No attempt is made to deny the truth of these accusations. 9:17, 22-24

9. Job asks God an excellent question: "Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands?" God doesn't answer. 10:3

10. The bible is wrong about ostriches being cruel and inattentive parents (39:13-16). But if they were, whose fault would it be? Why would God deprive them of the wisdom and understanding needed to do the job right? 39:17

And the best part of all:

11. Death is final and that there is no afterlife. 7:7-9

Dark....it only sounds like that when you anaylize it. Everyone should read that story for themselves and come up with their own ideas. The second death is the end. Then you have no hope of resurrection. Read scriptures John 5:28-29 Acts 24:15

When I die, I want to go where all of mankinds secular heroes go to.

I want to see Einstein, Ghandi, Mark Twain, Shakeapeare, Douglas Adams, and all those great secular people that have made an indellible positive mark on humanity.

If this means I have to go to hell because there is an infantile deity that doesn't appreciate reason and rational thought, but blind unwavering, unswerving, unquestioning obedience in himself exclusively, then so be it.

I'd rather burn in hell with the greatest people that have ever graced the planet then dwell in an oppressive totalitarian 1984-esque dystopia beneath an iron-fisted and fundamentally intolerant ruler that tortures people for not being ignorant enough to believe in it's existence despite giving them no logical reason to do so and plenty of evidence to the contrary.

I am a man of principles. Such religious beliefs are absolutely great...... if you have no principles whatsoever. But I am not that kind of person. I'm going to call a shoe a shoe and an egomaniacal destructive asshole an egomaniacal destructive asshole. I call it like I see it. And right now, ladies and gentlemen, all I see is a baby killing, animal sacrificing, world flooding, hell creating, human testing, plague sending, first born killing, genocidal, jealous short tempered god, who required his own son to be tortured and killed to appease his anger.

Nothing even remotely worth of worship. If you demand worship, you shouldn't ever get it.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 07-16-2003).]

There you go again babbling about what you obviously have no clue. GOD HAS NOT, DOES NOT, AND WILL NEVER TORTURE ANYONE!! Even you, with your arrogant know it all way of speaking....will not "burn in hell." If you end up there you will be saddened to know that you aren't going to get to rub elbows with any of the above mentioned. In fact you will be aware of nothing. You will be simply be dead, that's it! No fire, no brimstone....no suffering. Just dead.

Actually, AlwaysTired, I am sorry to say but this time u r wrong. There is a hell, there is satan and those who chose to have pride in themselves and not humble themselves before God and repent of their sins will go to hell and burn, an eternity of torture.

But it doesn't have to be like that, if we obey God then we go to a place of bliss. No we don't go to the heavens because thats what everything besides the earth is. God created the heavens and the earth. No we shall be in paradise for eternity, no murder, no sin, no boredom.

Also Dark Leviathan is a symbol for Satan not God for Satan is "King over all the proud" Job 41:34

"Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn for they will be conforted. Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:3-10

Let me end on this note:

OT=Law NT=Saved by grace through faith

Holy Trinity=Three in One=Father Son and Holy Spirit, Not three separate Gods but one God in three persons. Mind boggling yet God can do anything.

The Scavenger

Scavenger,

Why would Job 14:13 he asks to go to Sheol (hell). He was in the midst of suffering on earth. Why would ask to then go to hell if he was doomed to suffer in a firey hell? He knew that in hell you are in a state of unconscious, nothing more. Ecclesiastes 9:5-10. "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all... All that your hands find to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going"

I hate how they make God look like a primitive retarded human in the book of Job.

Do people not understand the meaning of omnipotent? God wouldn't have to prove anything to satan, because "it"(he/she, whatever you prefer) doesn't have to. It also would know how Job would react to all of his shit being taken away, so there would be no need to do that to prove that to itself.

grr. Fucking bible. People call God omnipotent yet most of the bible contradicts that. I'll bet 99% of atheists are only atheists because the only interpretation of God that they've heard of is the kind of asshole you read about in the book of Job.

I'm not usually a defender of Christianity - I personally believe it to be a religion based on womanly sympathy and counter-natural instincts - but Job happens to be one of my favorite Biblical stories as well because of its Faustian alchemical transformation.

First of all, no one re-addressed the butterfly analogy. Man typically and irrationally thinks that he knows better than God/Nature (cough Magneto cough). Therefore, he can easily screw it up. Adam and Eve learned that lesson by condemning the whole of humanity to separation from psychic wholeness.

Secondly, God, being omnipotent, knew how the trial would turn out. It was necessary to undergo for a multitude of reasons: first, to reaffirm his omnipotence over Satan; second, to manipulate Job's psychic development to prevent inflation; third, to allow Job to understand his position in the world as a subordinate to the divine Law of Nature - that it can be taken away without rhyme or reason. As I posted in "Something I've noticed about atheists/agnostics...",

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

God controls EVERYTHING IN EXISTENCE SINCE THE ORIGIN OF MATTER. God therefore:

1. Doesn't give a shit about your opinions.

2. Doesn't give a shit about your demands to "see" him, seeing as Nature in its entirety apparently isn't enough for you.

3. Isn't controlled by emotions.

4. Isn't concerned with justice.

5. Doesn't answer your prayers.

6. Doesn't give or deny you special attention.

7. Won't explain anything to you.

8. Can, and just might, RUIN YOUR SHIT without explanation or notice.

After Job curses the day he was born and rants about God's injustice, God ruined Job's shit by showing him mere glimpses of Hell, including Behemoth and Leviathan, saying, "Did you put all the time and effort to create a balance in nature and generate the whole of existence from scratch? Did you make the world, or did I make the world, including you? I thought so." And Job does something along the lines of "turn and repent in ashes" or something like that (Biblical scholars?). What it means is, Job learned where he was in life, and it reaffirmed his enthusiasm and vigor for life and God. Behold, Job's alchemical change.

[This message has been edited by Tyrant (edited 07-18-2003).]

AlwaysTired I am sorry to say this but Hell is more than being unconscious it is the torture of knowing what u could have done to be in paradise and not being able to do it cause u lost ur chance. That is what is sybolised by fire and bimstone and all that.

(Sheol means grave not hell)

Fuck, God was with Job the whole time but instead of helping him up out of his misery he was allowing Job to work out all his problems with God and himself, a sort of self realization, let me remind u that God by working through the writers wrote the Bible. Have you read the whole Bible? How do u know that "most of the bible contradicts" gods omnipotence?

Tyrant, I agree with you up until your own quote. God is justice, he does care about our opinions but that doesn't mean he follows them, as for not caring about us seeing him we will see him when we die, God isn't controlled by emotions but he does have them, God does answer prayers but in His own time, God loves everyone equally, Read the bible its all the explaination we need, God does not "Ruin your Shit". We do it ourselves with our own sinful human nature. Of course u might say why are the most evil people in the world rich and the nicest most "holy" people in the world poor. Look at those people are the rich atheists happy? No. Are the poor Christians Despairing? No. Worldly wealth is not what gets us into paradise. It is what keeps us out. God will provide the amenities. He will give us what we NEED.

The Scavenger

quote:Originally posted by AlwaysTired:

God was in fact limiting what Satan could do. God did not just stand aside.

Again, the almighty God being limited by the satan his own created angel... I'd find it laughable if not for the thousands of people that turned into ashes because of these fanatical nonsensical middle-ages ideas.

It's not even God who limits the satan which would already be hard to swallow if it would imply an effort, since God is omnipotent and infinitely higher than any thing, and BTW there is nothing but him (as the allmighty, all is like nothing to him).

But wait, what we read here, is, the satan limited G od... Wait a minute!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Back to topic: Job was cool, great, humble, etc... God wanted to have a guarantee on human service, therefore he appointed a special angel whose job is to test righteousness by the fire. Job stood well in the test.

The satan is like a prostitute appointed by the king to entice his son the prince, and the prostitute really does the job perfectly, yet inside is eaten by the love of the creator and the ultimate purpose of her work: proving to the king the worth of his son. So while doing her sexy tricks, she prays deep inside, that the son will stand the test. (from the zohar/Tanya/Shiurim/farbrengen)

quote:Originally posted by AlwaysTired:

There you go again babbling about what you obviously have no clue. GOD HAS NOT, DOES NOT, AND WILL NEVER TORTURE ANYONE!!



I know about a million preachers and a thick book called the Bible that would disagree with you.

That's the perspective I'm arguing from here, anyway. What, since we're on the topic of Job and all.

quote:

Even you, with your arrogant know it all way of speaking....will not "burn in hell." If you end up there you will be saddened to know that you aren't going to get to rub elbows with any of the above mentioned. In fact you will be aware of nothing. You will be simply be dead, that's it! No fire, no brimstone....no suffering. Just dead.

I'm actually counting on it. It is easy to remove the mind from harping on the lost illusion of immortality. The disciplined intellect fears nothing and craves no sugar-plum at the day's end, but is content to accept life and serve society as best it may. Personally I would not care for immortality in the least. There is nothing better than oblivion, since in oblivion there is no with unfulfilled. We had it before we were born, yet did not complain. Shall we whine because we know it will return? It is Elysium enough for me, at any rate.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 07-20-2003).]

quote: The only reason a world you created would not be like that would be because you were either imperfect and failed, or you specifically wanted pain, misery, torment, and suffering to be part of your world because you were a spiteful asshole

You forgot C: Free will.

Everything you describe as suffering, misery, torment etc., is made/created by man.

If there were a God, our suffering wouldn't necessarily point to "spiteful" behavior.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-20-2003).]

Hey rust your handle should really be "stainless steel" http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Why, thank you! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Interesting thoughts by my favorite psychologist/philosopher, CG Jung:

quote:From Jung's Answer to Job, p. 10, originally from Psychology and Religion: West, paragraph 574:

The character thus revealed [Yahweh] fits a personality who can only convince himself that he exists through his relation to an object. Such dependence on the object is absolute whent the subject is totally lacking in self-reflection and therefore has no insight into himself. It is as if he existed only by reason of the fact that he has an object which assures him that he is really there. If Yahweh, as we would expect of a sensible human being, were really conscious of himself, he would, in view of the true facts of the case, at least have put an end to the panegyrics on his justice. But he is too unconscious to be moral. Morality presupposes consciousness. By this I do not mean to say that Yahweh is imperfect or evil, like a gnostic demiurge. He is everything in its totality; therefore, among other things, he is total justice, and also its total opposite. At least this is the way he must be conceived if one is to form a unified picture of his character. We must only remember that what we have sketched is no more than an anthropomorphic picture which is not even particularly easy to visualize. From the way the divine nature expresses itself we can see that the individual qualities are not adequately related to one another, with the result that they fall apart into mutually contradictory acts. For instance, Yahweh refrets having created human beings, although in his omniscience he must have known all along what would happen to them.

I love reading Jung's perspective. However, the metaphorical interpretation of Job must not be confused with the naturalist and practical perspective of God, which is not the anthropomorphic child we typically interpret him as.

Scavenger, I can't think of a time when Yahweh was just. Not to mention Yahweh is probably one of the most temperamental and demanding of gods ever conceived. Besides, the Bible is useless when you know the original pagan stories from which the Bible was construed.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

You forgot C: Free will.

Everything you describe as suffering, misery, torment etc., is made/created by man.

If there were a God, our suffering wouldn't necessarily point to "spiteful" behavior.

I could've taken an hour to demonstrate the point you made concisely. Cheers.

TYrant,

The sumerian story of baby Moses on the Nile, can be seen as a proof of the earlier source of that story. Or it can be seen as a proof that the story made such a big name, it was even told by sumerians. Everyone pulls the blanket to him.

[This message has been edited by UrbnTbone (edited 07-20-2003).]

don't forget the Flood story

But of course you'll say that it's from a different civilazation but if so please tell me the probability that so many people over a long period of time would follow up the first five books of the bible with prophecies, laws, and they all have the same overall view in the Old Testament ( pointing toward a Messiah). Also what is the probability that, in the New Testament, people would change their views to follow a radical new religion called Christianity with the belief that a man who claimed to be the Son of God was Resurrected from the Dead, ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty. Whats more is why would they choose to be persecuted for their beliefs instead of just lying andcontinuing in secret? I don't know about you but I believe the probability that all that happened in such an ordered fashion is astronomical.

The Scavenger

Well. You can't tell people: your greatgrand parents saw the flaming mount sinai, they would already know it by their parents.

Gospels were written after a long gap up to two hundred years.

You can't have a whole people believeing what the Torah says, that on the seventh year no work in the field should be done, and that the sixth year will provide for two, if it is not a true miracle that actually happened every seven years.

That and many similar points. But that Jesus made miracles, well that's possible, many rabbis do miracles. I saw some. I heard others from first source. So when you think of say, walking on the water, well in those times they were closer to original religion and could do awesome miracles.

People today think they invented the spirit, and the older the more questionable...

It's just the opposite: in real traditions, the older the more accurate and potent. Why do scholars spend their lives in libraries killing their eyes on old manuscripts? Well here is one reason.

The Old Testament (OT) is a history lesson of the Law. That all changed in the New Testament (NT) with Jesus' teachings. Read the Beatitudes in St. Matthew. They are the whole of the Law that Christians should follow. I take that bake it is the Law except for the common sense stuff like Thou Shalt not Kill and Shit like that.

The Scavenger

Well, this is by no means a new discussion, it's been debated and debated among philosophers and theologians as long as the book of Job has been around. These discussions have inevitably resulted in a few distinct views on the nature of god that are derived from study of this and similar conundrums. Some of them are as follows:

A. God doesn't exist, because what kind of God would allow stuff like that to happen?

B. God exists, God created the universe, but stuff like this happens because God chooses to allow mankind to have free will, and thus the repercussions that come from faulty decisions.

C. God exists, and but he's just as childish as us humans, only more powerful.

D. God exists, and he hates everyone of us little bastards, and created us for the express purpose of watching us suffer.

E. God exists, and is good, and has a plan. Any evil that is perceived by those on earth is just necessary for the plan to go through, and cannnot be avoided.

F. The nature of God is beyond human comprehension, one cannot claim that God exists, that God is good or bad, or that God has a plan, because the concept of God works on a level of existence far beyond that of which human beings can perceive, so stop flapping your mouth about this shit, cock-smiths.

The choice that is most shown in the BIBLE would be "B. God exists, God created the universe, but stuff like this happens because God chooses to allow mankind to have free will, and thus the repercussions that come from faulty decisions."

The Scavenger

Right on. From the bible point of view, of course.

All the black and white legends of God fighting against "satan", are not founded on the bible, for sure.

Please explain what you mean. if you are being sarcastic i sure can't hear it in you're voice CAUSE WE ARE TYPING!!! So type plainly. Thank You.

The Scavenger