Golden Crosses, statues, jewelry, extravagant attire; all of these accompany the Christian Church. Yet thousands of starving, ill, and destitute people strive to make ends meet.

How does the Christian Church justify their material wealth?

I once asked this question to a nun, and she told me “Those things don’t belong to anyone, they’ve been there for a long time”. How is that an excuse? If it doesn’t belong to anyone, then sell it. They’re more than enough religious followers, museums and institutions wanting to get a hold of those things. Why are their no auctions held?

Why? Because the Christian Church ignorantly believes that their “material wealth” brings them power and divine right. They prefer that thousands of people die and suffer instead of them looking “weak” and “powerless”.

This is one of the reasons not to believe in the Christian Church, and many other religious institutions.

Just My two cents http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Makes sense to me.

Then again, you may remember the story in the Bible, after Lazarus was raised from the dead, that his sister annointed the feet of Jesus with this amazingly costly stuff, the cost of which equalled the yearly earnings of a man.

Judas copped an attitude, said that Jesus should diss her for such waste, that the stuff should have been sold to feed the poor.

He pointed out that there will always be poor folks to minister unto, but that she had been saving the stuff for his death, which was imminant. I can see his point, too.

Interestingly, the Urantia Book adds that this incident was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, that this incident turned Judas totally against Jesus, and led to his decision to betray Jesus.

More recently, some fat guru was on Johnny Carson, and Carson asked him why he didn't seel his Rolls-Royce to get money to feed the poor. The kid replied "If I did that, they would just be hungry again tomorrow, and I wouldn't have a car."

And on the other hand, charity just tends to create and perpetuate a dependent under-class.

Maybe the moral of all this, is that there are no easy answers to complicated problems.

Still, I agree with the main thrust of your point.

Don't forget that goofy televangelist that was recently released from jail for scamming people into donations on TV. Something on the lines of suicide if he did not get some amount of $$.

You are pretty good at pointing out the areas of the catholic church that need a little work, but you forget about the work the church does to to bring a better life to those in need. I am sure you have seen Catholic Thrift Stores around town. Where do you think that money goes to?

How many athiestic societies go to visit assisted living centers, hospitals, and jails on a regular basis? I do not know of a single one. Let me assure you that every single week thousands of good catholic men and women volunteer their time to help people who have found themselves in those places. A great deal of homeless shelters and soup kitchens are fully sponsored by one church or another throughout the entire world.

How about hospitals that are established by the catholic church? Try counting those! As a matter of fact we have the catholic church to thank for hospitals as we know them.

Catholic monastaries and convents all over the world attend to people's need regardless of who they are or what they need. The men and women who staff these facitities have absolutly no profit motive, they are concerned only with the welfare of others.

As far as the elaborate habits worn during religous ceremonies - catholics are far from the first or only institution that has that going on. Besides, the habits worn by most catholics are nothing special, in fact, they were usually chosen because of the lack of value they carried.

quote:Originally posted by whaziznaim:

You are pretty good at pointing out the areas of the catholic church that need a little work, but you forget about the work the church does to to bring a better life to those in need. I am sure you have seen Catholic Thrift Stores around town. Where do you think that money goes to?

How many athiestic societies go to visit assisted living centers, hospitals, and jails on a regular basis? I do not know of a single one. Let me assure you that every single week thousands of good catholic men and women volunteer their time to help people who have found themselves in those places. A great deal of homeless shelters and soup kitchens are fully sponsored by one church or another throughout the entire world.

How about hospitals that are established by the catholic church? Try counting those! As a matter of fact we have the catholic church to thank for hospitals as we know them.

Catholic monastaries and convents all over the world attend to people's need regardless of who they are or what they need. The men and women who staff these facitities have absolutly no profit motive, they are concerned only with the welfare of others.

As far as the elaborate habits worn during religous ceremonies - catholics are far from the first or only institution that has that going on. Besides, the habits worn by most catholics are nothing special, in fact, they were usually chosen because of the lack of value they carried.

It's no use trying to boost the Catholic church. I mean, several priests ruined many little boys' lives! (You cannot forget their tendency to fondle with little boys, can you?) Their reputation is shot.

whaziznaim,

Most, if not all, of your claims point to good Catholics or Christians, not the Christian Church.

I did not say, in anyway, that the Christian Church has not done good deeds. Yet I fail to see how "great" it is, when the Vatican is filled with Gold symbols, statues and material things, while thousands of people suffer day in and day out. This is contrary to Jesus’ very own teachings, teachings that the Christian Church says it's based upon.

Answer this: Why have those material things?

I don't think there is any way in the world to justify the wealth of churches, christian or otherwise. In poverty sticken areas, there are elaborate "houses of god" being erected all the time. Saying, "they would just be hungry again tomorrow", is a cop out.

No better place than church for hypocrites.

You are confusing cardinal law with Christian doctrine... Define Christian church, considering there is no "Christian church" there is Catholic which is the one I think you are lookig at, It is not fair to judge the other denominations of christianity. Now, The Catholic Church, in terms of Cardinal Law contradicts itself many a time, Especially when you say that The church is wealthy, and does not help the poor when actually they dragged people of the street and saved them in the middle ages. There is so much wrong in your statement, you realy are not worth my time.

quote: considering there is no "Christian church

Christian Church: group of Christians; any group professing Christian doctrine or belief; "church is a biblical term for assembly" [syn: church, Christian church, Christianity] 2: a Protestant church that accepts the Bible as the only source of true Christian faith and practices baptism by immersion [syn: Christian Church, Disciples of Christ]



quote: Especially when you say that The church is wealthy, and does not help the poor when actually they dragged people of the street and saved them in the middle ages

Did you not read What I said? Please go over it again. I NEVER said they have not done good deeds. Yet they have, keep and flaunt that material wealth, without any justifiable reason.

Answer this: Why keep that material wealth?

I agree with Rust's point.

Very well observed, and raises a good question.

There are numerous flaws with religion in my opinion, I won't mention my views....well maybe a few in my own posts,

but good one Rust.

ArmsM, you make a good point, well there is answers to that question, but it can be used by crooks so I shouldn't post it. But anyway I doubt any rotten priest reads totse, so here it is:

God provides daily for the beasts, the birds, and every creation. Including humans.

So by giving God the money that could've fed the poor, it won't lack anyway, since God provides. Just the opposite: by glorifying God with costly dedications, a community does add input, and God will provide with even greater output.

Anyway at this stage, nothing is under rational law, it is a logic by itself, pointless to dismantle, just interesting.

You could say the same of magic: if one trusts his magic, he won't be stingy in the expenses, since it is like seed that you throw into the field: it will pay sevenfold.

But that game is dangerous when the system feeds on it: then you find opulent clergy living from the poor's tithing... Destroy!

quote:So by giving God the money that could've fed the poor, it won't lack anyway, since God provides. Just the opposite: by glorifying God with costly dedications, a community does add input, and God will provide with even greater output.

So monetary offerings are the only inputs that God will receive and act upon?...

If the answer is no, then the Christian Church is still at fault. If they answer is yes, then they have lied, thus still at fault.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

So monetary offerings are the only inputs that God will receive and act upon?...

Who said that?!

BTW we are not talking money, but, say, costly glory artworks to the glory of God.

That definition is somewhat correct, but you cannot accuse the other christian denominations who have no say and don't have material wealth. I read your post, and I am just making a point that they also helped people off the streets at a time specifically being pertinent to the subject.

Religion cannot have flaws by definition it cannot, it is human made and is in such a nature it just really cannot be flawed, unless against science in some case but.

Why do they keep the wealth? Simple answer...Power. Humans want power,no matter what they stand for or what they believe, they want power, leverage, strength etc. It is a known fact and that no matter what people say or try, the want for power is subconcious. They want the wealth mainly for power, or are too lazy to sell it, or just want people to join the group and add to the wealth and say that they have some share in it.

UBT:

quote:Who said that?!

BTW we are not talking money, but, say, costly glory artworks to the glory of God.



I know you didn't say that. But that's my point, if God accepts other things, besides glorious artworks, then the Church would still be at fault. The Church chose to use those artworks, why not prayer, good deeds, etc.?



quote:

Religion cannot have flaws by definition it cannot, it is human made and is in such a nature it just really cannot be flawed, unless against science in some case but.

Religion does have flaws, especially when dogmas, teachings and actions contradict themselves.

quote:

Simple answer...Power.

Thank you. So they choose power over the well being of other poor souls. That alone goes against Jesus’ teachings, which the Christian Church says it’s based upon.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

I know you didn't say that. But that's my point, if God accepts other things, besides glorious artworks, then the Church would still be at fault. The Church chose to use those artworks, why not prayer, good deeds, etc.? OK: artworks can be a support for meditation. Meditation brings the fidels to cherish the principles of charity, and commitment to whatever religion they belong. Thus religious art can be productive in terms of other religious activities. A buddhist who has nice art can either put it on a shelve and see it as a mere decorative object. Or he can meditate on that support and daily remind himself of all the lofty principles of buddhism. Art brings love ("venus", harmony, pleasure), and once you reach love within religion, usually you will love your fellow human. Unless you're a poisonous fanatic. quote:Thank you. So they choose power over the well being of other poor souls. That alone goes against Jesus’ teachings, which the Christian Church says it’s based upon. Yeah, you can say that. But again, whatever system tou build to enhance human qualities, it will end up feeding some people, and in any case, it will become a microcosm with its good people and its evil people, or just good people, but bad situations.

So, you can be an a$$ xian, but you can be an illuminated one, as with any religion.

Lovely, do you really claim that all of the good things Catholicism has done - and there have been some - is entirely negated by several priests, acting against accepted doctrine, abusing young males? How the hell does THAT work?

That's a very nice view of things, but extremely naive. So the Church chooses:



A: material wealth, in order to raise the faith of its followers and then it hopes that its followers help other people out.

Instead of

B: Using the very teachings of Jesus, and discarding all material dependencies, and then Church itself helping the people in need and in doing so, serving as an example to its followers.

I don’t see material wealth putting food on people’s plates, or putting a roof over their heads.

OK, the church is a system, OK it has its false pious and rotten sheep, but well, having nice art and expensive possessions doesn't mean that the religion is taking advantage. It may be an open door to that, but not necessarily.

BTW a religious organization should be transparent, and at the service of its congregants, not playing games with them.

Anyone should be entitled to check the accounting, and look to it that the money is really used the way it is posted in the books.

If a pastor, a rabbi, a sheikh/imam, has some charisma and knows to talk to the hearts of the congregants, that doesn't make him immune to verification of the finances.

There are too many congregations built like businesses, with a charismatic leader and a board of grey business people, looking for ways to evade money by different means.

quote: Anyone should be entitled to check the accounting, and look to it that the money is really used the way it is posted in the books.

Exactly, but in this case it doesn't matter.

I see the Material Wealth, that is not in question. What is in question, is why keep it?

And that's where the trouble begins.

Yes. The poor orders of monks, wandering fraters etc... were really living a life as advocated by Jesus.

The templars, cathars, also, that's why they were declared heretics by the church.

The church has always been under the protection of the nobility, thus benefitting from traditionally at least one of the sons/daughters of each noble family (priest, bishop, monk, nun). Plus the right to raise taxes. Domains, vines, etc... The mecenes would give tremendous amounts of gold to renown artists to paint churches , garnish them with statues. Often, the poor peasants(serfs) were under the double yoke of noblesse and clergy, totally crushed.

But art was not the only wealth, they had gigantic libraries, scribes, scholars in any imaginable field, explorators, emissaries, missionaries...

Was it good? I don't know. The world went through that dominant influence - and still is culturally under it, with different credos but the same genetically-transmitted balance of powers.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Lovely, do you really claim that all of the good things Catholicism has done - and there have been some - is entirely negated by several priests, acting against accepted doctrine, abusing young males? How the hell does THAT work?



No the Catholic church does many good things to the community. But living in a town with the majority being Catholic, I have grown to dislike the Catholic church. Their teachings are just totally rediculous and it's messing with my peer's heads. They cant have harmless fun because the church forbids them from doing so. At least it does around here.

ah see, the Christian Church is the community, not the monks bishops and priests. Most people that i know pay the church thinking that it will go to the poor or continue to support there community and local church ( I mean the building this time) See, the Church leaders, even the pope...are human, they are just as easily corrupted as any other human, even more, because they have huge amount of power...So whats your point? the christian church (that means the community not the leaders) is not truly corrupt, it's the leaders of it.

quote: See, the Church leaders, even the pope...are human, they are just as easily corrupted as any other human, even more, because they have huge amount of power...



So that's an excuse? The problem isn't only that they are corrupt; the problem is that they also profess being the route of salvation. Heck, the Pope is supposed to be the closest representation of Jesus, on earth. I doubt Jesus would condone the acquisition of all that wealth, the lying or the deception of his people.

quote: So whats your point? the christian church (that means the community not the leaders) is not truly corrupt, it's the leaders of it.

Yet those “followers” accept, praise and/or ignore that material wealth. So in fact, they are at fault. Apathy or stupidity is not an excuse.

Yeah, were human, and that's a reason not an excuse, in fact that is a constant, that will not change, I don't give a damn about the material wealth, you might but it isn't a problem for me. I pay to the homeless the way I want to, I give to charities, but that is only out of charity I am only responsible to myself and God. The homeless are victims of human stupidity, My job as a human is to ensure the human race survives. And I think it is fine the way it is. No its not an excuse for the pope being corrupt, it is a constant thing, never ending your asking is being human an excuse, no....its a state of being, you can not question it, you can not change it, it is how it is and will be for ever. Humans are corrupt. We are corrupt by nature. Who are you to condemn nature and it's ways? Nature is not an excuse we are stuck this way, the people in power are corrupt one way or another, not much we can say or do about it. Just live with it, or ignore it. Your opinion and mine alone won't change jack shit.

quote: and that's a reason not an excuse

Where did I say other wise!?

Again: the people choose to believe him. They choose to praise or ignore that material wealth. Thus they share the fault.

Apathy or stupidity is not an excuse.

quote: Humans are corrupt. We are corrupt by nature.

I choose to be corrupt.

quote: No its not an excuse for the pope being corrupt, it is a constant thing, never ending your asking is being human an excuse, no....its a state of being, you can not question it, you can not change it, it is how it is and will be for ever

When he (the Pope) proclaims himself as the representation of Jesus, of God himself, he IS held to a higher standard.

If he is corrupt then he should step down and shut up. Thus he is at fault, yet AGAIN.

quote:Originally posted by Lovley:

They cant have harmless fun because the church forbids them from doing so. At least it does around here. That's the point: I believe the church is good as a minority, because it focuses on community work and real goals, compassion, charity etc.

But as soon as they get more power there is a power trip growing and taking over their minds, they believe that evrey case of non-conformity with their views is the satan operating. That's the flaw.

They are good as a minority.

The pope does not declare himself as a representation of Jesus but the people of the Catholic Church do.

L"h The lubavitcher Rebbe didn't proclaim himself messiah, his followers did.

quote: The pope does not declare himself as a representation of Jesus but the people of the Catholic Church do.

It is irrelevant if he or the people hold him to that standard. The fact remains he is held to that standard and he knows it.

Moreover if you don't like, lets do you a favor and change it to "leader of the Church", which in turn changes nothing. The standard is still there.

ok, but he is basically running a gigantic country that has so many followers that if you made one change whether it was good or bad it could lead the destruction of the church. If you look at it through his eyes and try you would realize that being christ is definitely not the easiest job especially when you try to live your life like him and your not aloud to live your life otherwise. Most laws are actually made by cardinals and bishops which he has no knowledge about. But seriously even if he is supposed to act like Jesus he is still human, perhaps he forgot about the material wealth, he is very old so.

"Why? Because the Christian Church ignorantly believes that their “material wealth” brings them power and divine right. They prefer that thousands of people die and suffer instead of them looking “weak” and “powerless”."

First off the belief that material wealth brings power and divine right is not ignorant at all, it has proven itself in the human reality to be true. The church truly is not some bitch thats supposed to clean up the worlds homeless as you imply, its a religion not a government. People are not required to pay the church. Most of the time people pay the church either because of a charity donation in a parish or to make sure that the church survives and that the upkeep cost is paid for. Sure they could sell the artifacts but somethings you can't really sell, plus if they sold it they would still have the money right? so whats your point. The homeless are homeless a large population use charity money and donations to do drugs. so....it's kind of hard to fix the worlds problems by pinning it on 1 group of people. see I could say "Rust go sell all your material wealth, your phonees your computer everything, your family airlooms (sp) and your china pieces and all your gifts you recieved, how about you give all your money away!" and what are you going to do? most definitely not sell anything or give all your money or priceless family treasures. why? because they are precious to you and you need money to survive. just like the church as an organization they believe in helping and they do when they have money to spare. but you see the church survives on the people and the people have a choice to pay for the church if they want. So the catholic church keeps the money just incase and keeps its treasures because it was a donation or a gift or from previous generations. You believe in helping the homeless and I guess you occasionally help them as does the church, but you aren't going to risk your living style are you for some other people, and neither will the church. That is the fact, humans deep down don't care for others and we just want to survive and thats instinct. Now I Have shown you a clear example of why the church will not give up its valuables.

[This message has been edited by Hammer&Sickle (edited 08-02-2003).]

Hammer&Sickle,

They are held to that standard. THEY imposed that standard on themselves. As such they are 'wrong' when they do stray from those standards.

quote: But seriously even if he is supposed to act like Jesus he is still human, perhaps he forgot about the material wealth, he is very old so.



Your excuse is his age, NOW? What about before ? He was a relatively young man before. What about the Popes before him?

quote: First off the belief that material wealth brings power and divine right is not ignorant at all, it has proven itself in the human reality to be true.

It brings DIVINE RIGHT? Please.... And the only ‘Power’ it brings is a false one at that. 'Human reality' IS ignorant.

quote: it's kind of hard to fix the worlds problems by pinning it on 1 group of people. see I could say "Rust go sell all your material wealth, your phonees your computer everything, your family airlooms (sp) and your china pieces and all your gifts you recieved, how about you give all your money away!" and what are you going to do? most definitely not sell anything or give all your money or priceless family treasures.

Again, they claim to be followers of Jesus’ teachings. They denounce excess and materialism. I don’t. Hence I am not expected to sell my material wealth. Moreover "phones, computers" serve me a purpose and may very well serve others, as I can help people through them; giant statues and golden icons don't.



quote: So the catholic church keeps the money just incase and keeps its treasures because it was a donation or a gift or from previous generations.

That explains HOW they got those gifts. Not WHY they keep them.

It again boils down to the Church preferring to keep the material wealth, instead of selling it and in the process helping others.

no see it really doesn't boil down to that. They keep there material wealth as a back up to sell as well as ornaments to show there power in the human world, whether it is ignorant or not, obviously it gives them great power. Now in the bible it does not say that you have to give up material wealth and all your money, trust me it doesn't, and it does not say that in the profession of faith either, The catholic church itself does say that you should help poor people, and what does the church do? It helps alot and I mean alot, you have no idea how many charities and organizations are made based on the church, and that is not including the religious orders based off of the church do, which is surprisingly even more. Just because you believe that you should help the homeless doesn't mean you give up all you have. That is just stupid and really isn't needed. Catholic Church views are like so: "help those less fortunate than you" They have helped sure they might be able to help more but that doesn't mean they have to if they already help more than anyone else does. The fact is that the Catholic Church does help people but will not sell its prize possessions for it, it's human it's nature it is not an excuse so that is untouchable to change that. you have no right to call them hypocrites when you yourself don't even believe in what they teach... What gave you the idea you had? You said yourself you don't believe in helping homeless so you have no right to condemn those who actually do. Now it boils down to this, Catholic Church helps people when they want and who they want and has done a very good job of it. The cardinal law and religous belief itself does not contradict this subject that this conversation is about period.



BTW which exact popes might you be talking about? Actually in the 1500's the italians took the position of pope and used it to get money and fame for there families. so thats where much of the material wealth came from, and if you knew anything about the artifacts of the church and there placement, most of them are actually in museums and or they are kept as holy relics inside chruch altars. So your argument does not stand.

quote: They keep there material wealth as a back up to sell as well as ornaments to show there power in the human world,

As a back up to sell? Please. I don't see the Christian Church going bankrupt anytime soon. Thus that argument is unfounded. Also "showing there [their] power to the world" is a sin, again wrong.

quote: Now in the bible it does not say that you have to give up material wealth and all your money, trust me it doesn't,

Have I said that? No. All of your argument is based on your fictional idea that I said that you have to sell everything, which is false. Moreover Jesus himself said to give everything you can spare.

quote: The fact is that the Catholic Church does help people but will not sell its prize possessions for it, it's human it's nature it is not an excuse so that is untouchable to change that

Human nature? Again! Understand,it s IRRELEVANT. They are held to those standards because they claim to follow them, thus they are wrong, like it or not.

quote: What gave you the idea you had? You said yourself you don't believe in helping homeless so you have no right to condemn those who actually do

Where the heck did I say that I did not help the homeless. I will have a intellectual debate with you as long as it is in the realm of truth not fiction.

quote: BTW which exact popes might you be talking about?

You made a stupid and illogical argument that the Pope was "old and forgot about the material belongings". Thus I mentioned the fact that: a. he was young at some point and b. that there have been other Popes before him.

quote:Actually in the 1500's the italians took the position of pope and used it to get money and fame for there families. so thats where much of the material wealth came from,

I don't care in anyway where they came from. Actually, it's irrelevant to the argument.

quote: and if you knew anything about the artifacts of the church and there placement, most of them are actually in museums and or they are kept as holy relics inside chruch altars. So your argument does not stand

My argument does in fact stand. I find it funny how you manage to say that my argument is false, unfounded and the like, yet thus far you have failed to disprove me and have resorted to making stuff up.

Again the Church does in fact have many statues, symbols and other material objects in the Vatican and across many other Churches.

the vatican itself is basically a museum with some perks basically. I have no made false statements NOT ONE. I am responding to all your posts. I am responding to exactly your posts, maybe your dyslexic or something but I am responding with what you say and imply. and then you get all fussy about it, and say that I am based on fiction...YOU ARE. You do not know what catholics believe in you do not know how the church operates you do not know anything about your argument to support it. Originally your post was a question to be answered, we gave you answers and now you are trying to defend your question with utter nonsense. I doubt you are catholic and know true meanings and teachings of christ. Perhaps you generalized it.

See now you are getting angry by just calling posts ignorant when they are based off yours. You have a grave misunderstanding of church doctrine and what they believe and what the say they believe. Before you make an accusation or assumption about the church realize that the entire church is people who worship Christ. They have a profession of faith in which states all that they believe in. read that and come back to me.

There actually is no argument. I gave you an answer you didn't like it and you blasted me for it. The church keeps its wealth for power , they do not exploit they really do not use it. They just want it. there that suit you? We are human whether there are standards set up for us or not it does not effect that fact. that is the bottom line. I will repeat it. The church keeps material wealth for power period, whether they exploit it use it to full extent, deny christs teachings it does not matter, that is the answer to your question Power which i stated before.

A real Christian wouldnt hesitate to give the shirt on their back to someone in need. The bible says to be humble.

Churches are always asking for more and more money just so they can make all golden crucifixes, candle holders, a nice grand piano/keyboard, silk robes for the priest. Everything, including the church itself, and the homes of church officials, is elaborate. Alot of the people that attend church are in the shitter financially, but the church still asks for money to buy expensive luxury items for the church. Everybody is created equal, right, just some are more equal than others.

You said and I quote: "You said yourself you don't believe in helping homeless "

Please I beg of you, tell me where the hell I said that. You my friend are the dyslexic one.

quote: The church keeps its wealth for power

That's a SIN! Please understand that. Again think of an answer that does not immedietly disprove itself.

quote: Originally your post was a question to be answered, we gave you answers and now you are trying to defend your question with utter nonsense. I doubt you are catholic and know true meanings and teachings of christ. Perhaps you generalized it.

No, originally it was a STATEMENT, please learn to read. Then it changed into a question, which was answered. Then it changed to a debate. Which is currently in proccess.

quote:

The church keeps material wealth for power period, whether they exploit it use it to full extent, deny christs teachings it does not matter, that is the answer to your question Power which i stated before.

Yes, you already answered power before, I never said you where wrong. But do not say "power" now and act as if it was an answer because it is not. The argument had moved LONG ago to whether that is right or not.

quote:Originally posted by Lovley:

A real Christian wouldnt hesitate to give the shirt on their back to someone in need. The bible says to be humble. It depends: if he will lose his job because of being incorrect in his clothing, then he won't be able to perform charity, he will beg with the beggars he gave his shirt to. quote:

Churches are always asking for more and more money just so they can make all golden crucifixes, candle holders, a nice grand piano/keyboard, silk robes for the priest. Everything, including the church itself, and the homes of church officials, is elaborate. Alot of the people that attend church are in the shitter financially, but the church still asks for money to buy expensive luxury items for the church. Everybody is created equal, right, just some are more equal than others. Well I think the underlying problem here is the question of the providence of the divine ruling the church, regardless of the number of corrupted leaders. The mystical church is led by God just like a vessel, and the captain really only performs a formal leadership. As an organic sum of humans, gathered by providence and acting according to providence wether they know it or not.

If you believe in that, then nothing can be said against any of the church's historical "errors", since after all, God's hand was casting a separation line between what was to be and what was to be avoided.

Riches, etc... The church was God's choice vessel of expression in this world.

Actually this was originally a theory based on the jewish concept of "Knesset Israel", the mystical gathering of the souls of Israelites,

the spiritual community; to christians, the spiritual church, the spiritual assembly of moslems (how is it called, jemma...?), and in buddhism the assembly of the bodisatvas etc...

That's pretty much an universal concept.

So you can't blame the church per se, it just pushed it a bit further than usual religions into secularianism and materialistic rule in the name of the church. But it is no isolated case.

Well, in other words you are wrong I hate to say it.

correct me once again if I am wrong, but did you just say that it was God's command/will to construct elaborate churches, just to praise him?

quote:It depends: if he will lose his job because of being incorrect in his clothing, then he won't be able to perform charity, he will beg with the beggars he gave his shirt to.



There are no exceptions, 'if, ands or buts' ,in the line of charity if you go by Jesus's teachings.

quote: Riches, etc... The church was God's choice vessel of expression in this world.

The Church was, not its riches. I doubt Jesus or God would want a Church that ignore his teachings and focus on materialism and excess instead.

That's what I said: if you believe in dogma, the church - or jewish people - or moslim community of bros - or insert whatever proud creed - cannot fail, since they are the column on which the world rests.

And the world could disappear, they would still be around.

Whether exploiting a power is a sin or not, it does not matter. It was a question.....

"How does the Christian Church justify their material wealth?"

"Why are their no auctions held?"

"How is that an excuse?"

Well it was a mixture of a statment and a question, I provided you with the answer of power, and you say that the exploitation of power is a Sin, well it is. The church makes some mistakes, sure..It's human, but you can not yell at someone who does more work for the poor than you have ever done. You generalize the entire Catholic population when you have not made a survey or test of any sort. Your argument really cannot stand without any sufficient or knowledgable backing. This is how it goes...Jesus did not say, "Throw away all the synagogues possessions and riches and give it to the people..." Therefore the church doesn't have to. Jesus does say to help the poor and that is what the church has done and still does. Jesus does not say to give up all the wealth. Actually most of the churches gold is not actually in there churches but in museums, and the priests cardinals and bishops do not own materials that are given to them. My final statement is that the church is corrupt just as much as human's are corrupt by nature. Society puts a standard on them whether they like it or not. It is societies opinion not theres. They are not hypocrites in this particular case because they do not contradict Jesus' teachings. That is my final word.

quote:Whether exploiting a power is a sin or not, it does not matter. It was a question.....

The question was answered a long time a go by you and me. Again, the argument had changed long ago to it being right or wrong.

quote:but you can not yell at someone who does more work for the poor than you have ever done.

Again you fail to understand. I have EVERY RIGHT in the world to question a Church which claims to pratice and hold it self to a standard, when in fact it does not. They are held to those standard because they claim to follow them, wether you like it or not.

quote:You generalize the entire Catholic population when you have not made a survey or test of any sort

Please tell where have I 'generalized the Catholic population'. The only point aimed at them was that they too are at fault if they accept, ignore or agree with the material wealth. And for that, I do not need any sort of "backing, test or suvery".

quote:Jesus does not say to give up all the wealth.

You need to read the bible more often:

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal; but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." (Matthew 6:19-21)



"You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." (Mark 10:21)



"The land of a rich man produced abundantly. And he thought to himself, 'What should I do, for I have no place to store my crops?' Then he said, ' I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, 'Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.' But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life is being demanded of you. And the things you have prepared, whose will they be?' So it is with those who store up treasures for themselves but are not rich toward God."

quote: They are not hypocrites in this particular case because they do not contradict Jesus' teachings

Read above.... And not only that but, they Church's very own doctrine says that if you sin, and do not show remorse and change your ways, you will not be forgiven.

quote: My final statement is that the church is corrupt just as much as human's are corrupt by nature.

If they didn't held themselves to that standard then thay COULD be an excuse or a reason, but they do.

quote:Originally posted by Hammer&Sickle:

when actually they dragged people of the street and saved them in the middle ages.

the church was one of the main reasons that the middle ages happened to begin with. all that horrible shit happened because the catholic church had (and still has) a MASSIVE superiority complex. there is no excusing the history of the church.

quote:Originally posted by UrbnTbone:

[/b] Who said that?!

BTW we are not talking money, but, say, costly glory artworks to the glory of God.

[/B][/QUOTE]

god has no glory.

YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CONDEMN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH...NONE...you have a choice to but if you did condemn them it would be hypocritical which makes you seem blatanly stupid. Politically you do, but not in reality. That would be pure ignorance. You have set a standard for the church.......well drop it. The church is an organization to help understand the teachings of christ that is the standard. There are standards for priests and bishops and the pope, but we cannot condemn them or question the standard because you and I have no idea who they are as individuals. The church is not a person, remember that, Jesus addresses the PEOPLE and SUGGESTS that THEY lose the excessive wealth. He does not mention charity/religious organizations. therefore the law is irrelevant to the organization itself. The people who run it should put the morals into the organization. The bishops are the ones who decide what happens to the catholic church, if you are so disturbed by there hypocricy right to a bishop who is in the vatican council and consult him. The Profession of faith is what the catholic church believes in, you should really be yelling at cardinal law, not the church. The people cannot change the cardinal law only bishops can, unless there is an uprising. So really don't bitch about the Catholic church when they as a whole are better a person than you. If you addressed this post to cardinal law i would be right with you, but you condemned the wrong thing.

“Those things don’t belong to anyone, they’ve been there for a long time”

They do not belong to anyone, therefore they cannot be sold.

They prefer that thousands of people die and suffer instead of them looking “weak” and “powerless”.

They prefer? more like they don't have a choice. They do not own the materials that the vatican possesses, therefore they have no say where it goes.

quote:Originally posted by Hammer&Sickle:

YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CONDEMN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH...NONE...you have a choice to but if you did condemn them it would be hypocritical which makes you seem blatanly stupid. Politically you do, but not in reality. That would be pure ignorance. You have set a standard for the church.......well drop it. The church is an organization to help understand the teachings of christ that is the standard. There are standards for priests and bishops and the pope, but we cannot condemn them or question the standard because you and I have no idea who they are as individuals. The church is not a person, remember that, Jesus addresses the PEOPLE and SUGGESTS that THEY lose the excessive wealth. He does not mention charity/religious organizations. therefore the law is irrelevant to the organization itself. The people who run it should put the morals into the organization. The bishops are the ones who decide what happens to the catholic church, if you are so disturbed by there hypocricy right to a bishop who is in the vatican council and consult him. The Profession of faith is what the catholic church believes in, you should really be yelling at cardinal law, not the church. The people cannot change the cardinal law and the vatican only bishops can, unless there is an uprising. So really don't bitch about the Catholic church when they as a whole are better a person than you. If you addressed this post to cardinal law/vatican i would be right with you, but you condemned the wrong thing.

Let me simplify/revise my statements.

quote:How does the Christian Church justify their material wealth?

1. The term "christian" includes anyone who believes in christ the term "church" means any group of christians. You are talking about material wealth and the vatican which pertains only to the Catholic Church, not the "Christian Church"

They’re more than enough religious followers, museums and institutions wanting to get a hold of those things. Why are their no auctions held?

2. The nun answered your question. They are not owned by anyone therefore they cannot be sold. The possessions (about 90% of the actualy wealth) are in museums located in the vatican. The museums are under Italian jurisdiction.

Why? Because the Christian Church ignorantly believes that their “material wealth” brings them power and divine right.

3. That isn't an ignorant belief. It is an intelligent one, but devious. It will bring them power (not true power) but it will not give them Divine Right ( I have yet to see a statement or example on that)



They prefer that thousands of people die and suffer instead of them looking “weak” and “powerless”.



4. assuming that you mean the people of the church, you cannot generalize such a large population, and say that they prefer others to die. How do you expect the population to sell material wealth to help others when its not there material wealth?! It's like claiming that your neighbor's posessions are yours and that you have a right to sell them to help the poor!

quote:1. The term "christian" includes anyone who believes in christ the term "church" means any group of christians. You are talking about material wealth and the vatican which pertains only to the Catholic Church, not the "Christian Church"

I took the vatican as an example. It is plainly obvious that this happens all across the world and in many churches.

quote: 2. The nun answered your question. They are not owned by anyone therefore they cannot be sold. The possessions (about 90% of the actualy wealth) are in museums located in the vatican. The museums are under Italian jurisdiction

If you would take a moment to read, you would notice that I advocate giving museums the wealth! It's the countless other material things that have not been given, that have not been auctioned, and are flaunted that I have a problem with.

quote:3. That isn't an ignorant belief. It is an intelligent one, but devious. It will bring them power (not true power) but it will not give them Divine Right ( I have yet to see a statement or example on that)

It is ignorant when they believe that such material possesions give them power in heaven. The one and only place they should be interested in.

quote:4. assuming that you mean the people of the church, you cannot generalize such a large population, and say that they prefer others to die. How do you expect the population to sell material wealth to help others when its not there material wealth?! It's like claiming that your neighbor's posessions are yours and that you have a right to sell them to help the poor!

I mean the Church it self. Those who own the material wealth. It is stupid to think that they infact do not own it, because they do. Be it gifts, donations, creations or aquisition; they have power over them.

I find it very amusing that a few posts ago you said: "They keep there material wealth as a back up to sell as well as ornaments to show there power in the human world" and now it's not even theirs to sell? You even admit to them being gifts. Then sell those gifts.

quote:you have a choice to but if you did condemn them it would be hypocritical which makes you seem blatanly stupid.

How would it make me look stupid? Do I proclaim to follow the teachings of Christ? Do I proclaim to be the one and true Religion and Church?

AGAIN: THEY ARE HELD TO THOSE STANDARDS BECAUSE THEY CLAIM TO FOLLOW THEM.

That gives me and anyone else the right to question them. Get it through your head.

quote: He does not mention charity/religious organizations. therefore the law is irrelevant to the organization itself.

Then lets kill! He didn't mention me e directly either, so I can kill...? See the Church and those organizations are run by PEOPLE. Is that the best argument you could come up with?

quote: So really don't bitch about the Catholic church when they as a whole are better a person than you

Really? Who else is better than me? I just love how you keep judging me. Specially when it is totally irrelevant to the argument, and even more irrelevant when it is done ignorantly.

quote: If you addressed this post to cardinal law i would be right with you, but you condemned the wrong thing.

It is not the law that is at fault. It is the people running and following that law.

They claim to follow Jesus's teachings when in reality they don't. Thus they are wrong.

It is highly amusing that at first you thought "There is so much wrong in your statement, you realy are not worth my time"

And now you are scrambling with your posts, revising them, creating things out of thin air, and changing your original statements.

I am revising my statements in order to clarify, considering that some posts were mentioned out of anger at your lack of knowledge, I am not making any random facts or imaginary statements they are assumptions based on your posts.

You are not part of the catholic faith therefore you know nothing of the standards that they hold, and the standards that they claim to follow again read the profession of faith, that states immediately what they are expected to follow. If you have not read it than you do not know what standard they have set up for themselves, so read it first before you make a statement that claims the Catholic Church not holding to there standards. According to you the standards that they are held up to and follow would be impossible because they eventually to christ who is impossible to follow completely since we humans are flawed. If I was scrambling posts I would have stopped writing in this topic a long time ago. I actually put thought in my posts whether you think it or not.

(Lets bring this to a close and find a common ground to end the debate)

You say that they make the standards for themselves because they claim to follow them. I say that the society sets the standard. Now, they(the vatican) believe( I know this for a fact) (or are supposed to believe if they are to be called true Catholics) in the profession of faith. what they claim to believe which becomes the standard you are talking about could be anything, we wouldn't know for sure unless we talked to them in person and found out. so how does this debate end. you believe that the church leaders are hypocritical in the sense that they do not sell possessions that are under their jurisdiction to help the poor which would be against the teachings of christ, while i believe that they are not hypocrites(sp) because they have helped the poor continuously as Jesus asked. so now the real question i believe is whether Jesus said to help the poor to the fullest extent possible or to just help them. So indeed they are hypocrits, and if there is an excuse if any, is that they are human and that they cannot no matter what they have as a standard overcome the human instinct which is to crave power.

quote:so read it first before you make a statement that claims the Catholic Church not holding to there standards

Do they in fact claim to follow the teachings of Jesus? Yes. Then that whole argument is pointless. I do not need to read anything else to make my claims.

quote:I actually put thought in my posts whether you think it or not.



Like it or not you did scramble.

The very fact that you replied shows it.

quote:So indeed they are hypocrits,

Not only hypocrits, but wrong.

quote:

and if there is an excuse if any, is that they are human and that they cannot no matter what they have as a standard overcome the human instinct which is to crave power.

There is no excuse. There have been countless of men that have not succumbed to those temptations. A testament to the fact that you CAN overcome that "instinct", if it even exists.

-----------

Ahhh...

well I am sure that the situation is different for every individual, and eventually a human will break.

Now we can give the thread some rest http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)