Which method do you think is best for achieving enlightenment?

Deep meditation

Experience life (Including every fear you come across)

Thinking 'Fuck it, It happens when it happens' and carry on expressing your foolish beliefs until you learn why they are foolish

Finding a guru and absorbing his teachings.

Or any others that I didn't think of

Give reasons pleez

If something happens, and you can't do anything about it, then you might as well say "fuck it" and keep on truckin'.

Personally, I think the path to enlightenment comes from wisdom and experience.

Whether you are interested in Liberation, Moksha, Freedom, Enlightment, Transformation, you name it, you are interested in:

Happiness without one moment of unhappiness...

When the movement in the direction of becoming something other than what you are is gone, you are not, any longer, in conflict with yourself.

If you find the courage to touch life for the very first time, you will never know what hit you.

FoxLeonard

I was tempted to toss off a flip reply here, but you know, that is one hell of a good question.

First, please do not confuse being enlightened with being happy. Often, being enlightened--at least at some levels--equates with being disillusioned, which can be traumatic indeed. For instance, I was recently "enlightened" regarding the role of refined sugar in history, as well as it's toxicity. NOT a happy experience.

Likewise, about a zillion years ago when I was a contented male chauvinist pig, and was "enlightened" about how badly women are abused and misused in society, I was a VERY unhappy camper for days.

For more possibly helpful info, see my web site

http://www.shamanalaska.com

Oo I just thought of another.

Analysing yourself <---- My own personel method which seems to work to an amazing degree, but in turn makes me less happy.

i have to agree magneto's idea.

^ Sure, but doesn't wisdom come from experience?

And each of my options is an area of experience to gain wisdom through.

So I guess I could ask 'Which is the best method of gaining wisdom that will eventually lead to enlightenment?'.

All options still apply.

Experience and contemplation of that experience; Curiosity and enquiry.

Meditation serves only as a primer for these things. If you spend too much time listening to other people's wisdom, you will become wise, but never enlightened; Enlightenment necessitates the development of one's own specific personal wisdom. Slightly contradictorily, - a balance must be achieved - acceptance, and never dismissal, of other people's beliefs and opinions is also important.~ looking at things from a variety of perspectives can yield answers to many otherwise apparently unanswerable questions, both generally and in daily life. quote:So I guess I could ask 'Which is the best method of gaining wisdom that will eventually lead to enlightenment?'.That's where the balance between fist and second hand wisdom comes in.

All this information and proverb you obtain, however, is useless if you don't relate it to real life.

[This message has been edited by I am Weasel (edited 07-16-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by FoxLeonard:

Enlightenment [is] happiness

How so Fox? The eastern conception of enlightenment is about casting off suffering, and the European version is about intellectualism or rational thought. These don't necessarily imply "happiness".

User!

I must confess that I made a kind of...

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

a flip reply here

...but that aside, I never claimed, in my earlier post, that enlightenment equals happiness.

I did a generalization and claimed that people who look for such things as enlightenment, look for happiness without one moment of unhappiness.

They usually also believe that they need to change themselves is some fundamental way(s), to achieve this state of enlightenment, wich I adressed in the next part...

FoxLeonard

[This message has been edited by FoxLeonard (edited 07-17-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Beany:

Which method do you think is best for achieving enlightenment?

Deep meditation

Experience life (Including every fear you come across)

Thinking 'Fuck it, It happens when it happens' and carry on expressing your foolish beliefs until you learn why they are foolish

Finding a guru and absorbing his teachings.

Or any others that I didn't think of

Give reasons pleez

Look inside, discover your brain, learn who you are, remember? http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by FoxLeonard:



Happiness without one moment of unhappiness...



Or is enlightenment being completely realeased of fear? Or is enlightenment a mixture of many cool things.

quote:Originally posted by Beany:

Which method do you think is best for achieving enlightenment?

Deep meditation

Experience life (Including every fear you come across)

Thinking 'Fuck it, It happens when it happens' and carry on expressing your foolish beliefs until you learn why they are foolish

Finding a guru and absorbing his teachings.

Or any others that I didn't think of

Give reasons pleez

1Finding a guru and absorbing his teachings

2Deep meditation and learning

3Once you reached an illumination you'd say was enough of a challenge to your balance, and landed back safely or fixed the landing damage, then don't look for it anymore but

4Think 'Fuck it, It happens when it happens' and learn detachement from it of course at this point you don't need *belief* since you are experienced.

5Experience life, by now all you can experience is one more stone to your house of worship, and adds up that many combinations of sacredness to your temple.

1*1=1 2*2=4 3*2=6 4*3*2= 24 5*4*3*2=120 6*5*4*3*2=720 From now on, think the unthinkable, especially since the numbers are nothing, a mere allusion to reality's infinite increments once you developped a pattern of development. In other words: once you've reached enlightenment, departed it, and are distanciated even from the craving for it, then you are truely existing on all levels.

quote:Originally posted by Beany:

Which method do you think is best for achieving enlightenment?

How about questioning the first answer you come up with to get a second answer. Then question the second answer. Then continue this process. Where does that take you? Do you get to an answer that can't be questioned?

Beany!

First of all, I hope that you have read my reply to User X, and thus realized that I never claimed that enlightenment equals "Happiness...".

quote:Originally posted by Beany:

Or is enlightenment being completely realeased of fear?

Far from.

A fearful experience can, of course, change your life in such a way that you, from that moment, start a "quest" for enlightenment.

And some "enlightening" experiences can, in a sense, be frightening.

But to, from there, conclude, or, for any other reason believe, that "fear is enlightening in itself", is just rediculous.

quote:Or is enlightenment a mixture of many cool things.

Not a mixture of what is usually refered to as "cool things", anyway...

Enlightenment is, in a sense, nothing but your personal Natural State, of being and of living, to wich you, theoretically, can add as much, or as little, wisdom as you like.

So, it could be said that there is no such thing as enlightenment, but that would be to argue the wrong thing in this thread...

FoxLeonard

These replies are the coolest! The coolest!

To change reality-tunnel is very similar to parachuting, for the very first time.

Before the leap, it feels like a huge risk, while it in fact is very safe.

Once in the air, it is possible to manouver, more than you might have believed, but only to a point. And only in one, general direction. You cannot get back up, and into the plane!

The landing is surprisingly hard, yet not too hard. If you follow the instructions (your instincts), there is little or no risk that you hurt yourself.

Straight after the landing you feel somewhat disorientated, but you will find your way, and feel comfortable and secure, soon enough.

Then you will also realise what you have achieved, and feel more self secure than ever before!

FoxLeonard

^ I like the analogy.

It's soo darn difficult to do this tho. I guess this is where faith comes in. I guess that few people have complete faith in god.

Jesus, and Buddah to name a couple. I guess having complete faith in god is also what leads you soon to enlightenment.

Enlightenment comes from the mergence of the conscious and subconscious

quote:Originally posted by Beany:

^ I like the analogy.

Thanks Beany!

quote:It's soo darn difficult to do this tho.

No, actually not!

You can do it!

You already have the parachute, as we are all equipped with one.

You already know the basics of how to use it, and how to land. They came with the instincts we (actually) have.

What may be worse is all the crutches you most probably use (whether you like it or not), when you move around inside the airplane (your current reality-tunnel).

And, oh! Have you found the door yet?!

quote:I guess this is where faith comes in.

In a sense, but not necessarily a "specified" and/or religious faith.

You need to know, and have faith in your knowledge, that there is something outside of the airplane, and somewhere to land, of course.

You need faith in yourself, your skills and your "equipment".

quote:I guess that few people have complete faith in god.

Complete faith in God, equals knowledge about God; such as Gnosis. At that point you do not any longer believe in God('s existence), but know.

So while you are close enough in saying:

quote:I guess having complete faith in god is also what leads you soon to enlightenment.

...it would be more correct to say that that state is a state of enlightenment in itself...

But it can also be the result of enlightenment, or the result of a change of reality-tunnel.

FoxLeonard

<<<<No, actually not!>>>>

Perhpas not if you have courage. I don't have a lot of courage so I find it difficult to surrender to my instincts.

Also, in surrendering to my instincts I will get to face many fears, and although this will help me to see past their falseness, I'll still react to them in the same ways, IE: Panic, cry, whatever, until I realise that the fear of panicing and crying is also false.

All it boils down to is having the courage to jump.

Beany!

To change reality-tunnel is, most often, more than, what is usually called, a leap of faith. You can make a leap of faith, without making an actual change of reality-tunnel. But the leap of faith could, or should ideally, lead to a subsequent need for a change of reality-tunnel.

To return to the earlier metaphor, it can be said, that a lot of people don't know that they are in an airplane. They believe the cabin to be the whole world; all there is to it. And they are equally unaware that they are travelling with "someone else" in control.

Similar to how we percieve our world on planet Earth. Even now, when we (supposedly) know that the planet we live on is turning and moving at incredible speed, through a vast space, we have, seemingly, no actual way to personally confirm it.

What is known as common sense, still tells us that the Earth is flat!

Today we are taught that the planet is a turning sphere, moving in space, but at the same time we are taught that there is nothing, for us, except the cabin (to return to the airplane metaphor).

At least that is what science tells us, while our main religions say that there is "something" more, but nothing that you can actually reach until you die. Thus you should believe in this "something", for no apparent reason, and stay in the cabin as you know it. You are supposed to patiently await your reward at the end of the flight. Meanwhile you are provided with crutches, to make your life in the cabin more comfortable...

Yet, some people come to realize (re-realize, actually) that there are windows, and something outside of these windows.

These people will also start looking for a door, and very likely find one, while being told that there is no actual door, and even if there was one, it would not help them, as they don't have the needed equipment to step outside.

Others will show up and say that they can provide the equipment. Some people believe them, take the leap, and find themselves in free fall, ending in a much too hard landing. Most of them will stay disorientated for a long time; often for the rest of their lives. Others land in a way that bounces them straight back into the cabin.

So, these "Gurus" who say that they can provide you with the needed equipment, actually give you nothing. They give you a (new) set of crutches, when you need a parachute!

A real Guru is one who tells you to throw away all the crutches that we have been made to believe are essential for our survival. The true Guru tells you:

"Throw all the crutches away, and don't replace them with some fancy crutches or even a set of computerized crutches. You can walk; and if you fall, you will rise and walk again."

The true Guru will also tell you that you already have your own, personal parachute, and the knowledge; the skill, needed to make the (first) jump. If he doesn't tell you, it is because you will come to realize it yourself, very soon after you have started moving around inside the cabin without the "aid" of crutches.

Thus there is no need to wait for a Guru, to tell you what you already have, and what you already actually know!

You can do it!

You must do it on your own!

FoxLeonard

[This message has been edited by FoxLeonard (edited 07-18-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Beany:

Perhpas not if you have courage. I don't have a lot of courage so I find it difficult to surrender to my instincts.

Beany!

Who has said that you should "surrender to your instincts"?!

All I said was that you must trust and use a few of them.

And this:

quote:Also, in surrendering to my instincts I will get to face many fears, and although this will help me to see past their falseness, I'll still react to them in the same ways, IE: Panic, cry, whatever,

...has little or nothing to do with the topic!

While you seem somewhat obsessed with it, to the extent that you seemingly want this, that you don't really like, to be part of "the path to enlightenment".

Why?

quote:until I realise that the fear of panicing and crying is also false.

Not necessarily. The fear of panicking can be strong enough to make you panick. The fear of crying can sometimes make you weep. If so, they are real fears, and very basic human reactions. And while it can be good to get rid of of their causes, there is nothing wrong in those reactions.

quote:All it boils down to is having the courage to jump.

In a sense, but you will probably not consider it as so much courage when the day comes...

But before then, it might also be good to have some basic idea about where to land http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

FoxLeonard

[This message has been edited by FoxLeonard (edited 07-18-2003).]

Beany!

I all of a sudden realized that I might have read this question inside out, or upside down http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Beany:

Or is enlightenment being completely realeased of fear?

I read "released of fear" to mean that enlightenment could be released out of fear, by fear, or through fear.

Now I realize that you might have meant that the state of enlightenment is, or includes, to be released; i.e. become free from fear(s).

If the latter is true, your question, and what I refered to as "obsession" about fear, makes more sense, not least in the perspective that you claim to have little courage - wich in itself takes some courage to admit!

As it is, this will make little or no difference on my replies, except the one to that question, perhaps.

But I should add, that the change of reality-tunnel that I refered to, does not need to be the "ultimate leap" to enlightenement.

You can use the same method to make some needed changes in your everyday life. By doing so you will gain self-confidence, and more knowledge, also about the method you use.

Knowledge and confidence that come handy for the next jump...

FoxLeonard

[This message has been edited by FoxLeonard (edited 07-18-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by FoxLeonard:

I never claimed, that enlightenment equals happiness.

I misunderstood. It became clear in subsequent posts that you were defining it as a false ideal. (enlightenment--in the popular sense of the word.)

What is Enlightenment?

quote:Originally posted by FoxLeonard:

If the latter is true, your question, and what I refered to as "obsession" about fear, makes more sense, not least in the perspective that you claim to have little courage - wich in itself takes some courage to admit!



The latter is true. And I do kinda have an obsession with fear coz It controls a too large a percentage of my life. It's my main lifes goal to rid myself of it, or as much as it takes to help me live happily anyway.

The path to enlightenment? What's that?

Oh, you just mean Sleep Deprivation! Aye, and it's a long road.

quote:Originally posted by DgenR8:

What is Enlightenment?

On a moment level, it's when you finally get the idea that answers some question you toiled on.

In a life, it is the kind of realisation of all in one answer, and the answer to all questions, without brainwash of course;

quote:What is Enlightenment?A state of spirital insight; Freeness from prejudiceor superstition; Being well informed, knowledgable. OED.

But that doesn't really seem like an adequate answer to me.

I just thought: Enlightenment could be defined in one sense as being what you want to be, that being achievable because you don't want to be anything too much.

quote:Originally posted by I am Weasel:

[QUOTE] Enlightenment could be defined in one sense as being what you want to be, that being achievable because you don't want to be anything too much. Yes that's detachment. It works.