the reason for all these fucked up religions is because, everyone is shit scarred of dying and cant find out the reason they are alive, so they pull out their korans and bibles and hope that something they dont really believe in, will save their sorry ass.

the truth is, by pulling out your bibles and korans ...you just fucked it mate.

if you want the truth... let me know and i may explain.

...

What about religions where there's no afterlife?

quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

...

What about religions where there's no afterlife?

it doesnt matter, religions where there is no afterlife, those people are what are known as annhialists, and they are also wrong , so they spend their lives living under the cloud of the fact 'you only live once so do this and do that....

maybe they expect to die and that is the end of it, but they still dont know why they are here, and they dont really KNOW FOR CERTAIN that when they die that is it..

just like the believers dont really believe 100 percent that there is a god.

some muslims and christians etc, will defend and argue until they are blue in the face that they 100 percent believe in god or allah,

but deep down, they have their doubts, even those who strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves up in the name of their religion,..they too have their doubts deep down.....but they would not admit it to me....first of all they would have to admit it to THEMSELVES........

I love life, but If god didn't exist then I wouldn't wanna either.

Your problem, eBlip, is that you are just as afraid of dying as your fellow humans: that's why you assume such a superior stance, and insist on pointing out their own faults.

With the absence of fear comes the absence of criticism... This is projected fear...

quote:Originally posted by 10000_GeV:

Your problem, eBlip, is that you are just as afraid of dying as your fellow humans: that's why you assume such a superior stance, and insist on pointing out their own faults.

With the absence of fear comes the absence of criticism... This is projected fear...



GeV,

i am afraid of dying, because as a person i feel incomplete, having looked at most religions, i then asked myself why i looked at these religions, and found out i was looking for an escape route, or a safety net.

basically answers to the big questions, in order to gain total peace of mind.

i am not superior to anyone on the planet nor inferior, in my eyes we are all equal.

the thing is, i am a real straight guy, and sometimes i notice from my own personal experience that people lie to themselves in a kind of real deep way....

so i write things like this just to maybe give them a little food for thought and also to get some back.

it is an attacking method like you pointed out, but that is part of my charachter, its a weakness but i get more stimulation by swinging towards the rude and cocky in my behaviour, possibly or should i say, i definitely find it easier to express my true thoughts in this way, but as you will see i am not afraid to admit the truth.

some people say that its only people who havent got the vocab or intelligence, to express themselves elequently who resort to rudeness and cockyness.....

maybe they are right...

Its better to believe and it not be true , then to not beleive and it be true.

Why should any of us try to convice other people to subscribe to our beliefs?

Thiest, athiests, it doesn't matter. If us theists are wrong, we'll never know. If you athiests are right, you'll never know.

What's the point?

I admire your honesty, eBlip! But don't you consider it hypocritical to keep that posture all the same?

I agree with you, of course, that the fear of death inspires most religions. The keyword is MOST. It's not as if you and I are the sole two people in the world to realize this fact--and to that effect, there are many religions based on this very realization, whose precepts only aim one toward taking a healthy, well thought-out view of LIFE, (not death) and are rather like systems of psychology!

Indeed, no religion is entirely without this purpose, however mucked-up in dogma it is.

Our problem as inhabitants of this world is that too many of the old religions are blindly passed down, even when they've ceased to be effective.

The question just asked, "Why should anyone try to spread their religion?" owes itself to this fact. For in our world especially religions REALLY ARE spread with no purpose!

But the true purpose of a religion is to make life a happier and more enjoyable thing. And in that case, spreading a religion is just a way of spreading a "happiness-system."

I recommend to anyone fed up with our centuries-old Western religions to take a look at something written by Tarthang Tulku:

Here is a truth entirely free of "fear thinking."

PS Sadie:

I encourage you to think about that statement in further detail... Pascal's (yes, this statement is a paraphrase on one made centuries ago by a French mathematician) argument is only so effective as one's assumption of what is "better."

It can be quickly torn apart when one considers that others might not think it "better" to have disbelieved and turned out wrong. Perhaps to some people this is actually better than its opposite: believing and being right.

It actually implies a fair amount of luck. One wagers that God will honor belief, without knowing that he actually will, in contradistinction to those who wager the opposite... What if one didn't want to "play dice" with one's soul, even if it meant forsaking the benefits of doing otherwise?

What if one couldn't respect a God who only honored those lucky individuals to have "placed the right bets"?

With that in mind, Pascal's argument is easily proved false because it implies assumptions about The Good that aren't necessarily true.

I mean, Plato spends so much time trying to define "the good"--I don't see how Pascal can just skip over it in a heartbeat, thinking it already perfectly clear!

quote:Originally posted by 10000_GeV:

PS Sadie:

I encourage you to think about that statement in further detail... Pascal's (yes, this statement is a paraphrase on one made centuries ago by a French mathematician) argument is only so effective as one's assumption of what is "better."

It can be quickly torn apart when one considers that others might not think it "better" to have disbelieved and turned out wrong. Perhaps to some people this is actually better than its opposite: believing and being right.

It actually implies a fair amount of luck. One wagers that God will honor belief, without knowing that he actually will, in contradistinction to those who wager the opposite... What if one didn't want to "play dice" with one's soul, even if it meant forsaking the benefits of doing otherwise?

What if one couldn't respect a God who only honored those lucky individuals to have "placed the right bets"?

With that in mind, Pascal's argument is easily proved false because it implies assumptions about The Good that aren't necessarily true.

I mean, Plato spends so much time trying to define "the good"--I don't see how Pascal can just skip over it in a heartbeat, thinking it already perfectly clear!

Yes, yet... Rational thought is not a sin to me, even though sometimes it has got to be fought...

Examination of this creation can lead one to logical assumptions, and if there is some higher being, creative energy however you may call it, chances are that by siding with it, you end up gaining something; Just as in the world, if you side with the powerful you most probably get rewards (without judging wether good or evil as an attitude).

The difference being that in this world by siding with the system you are co-responsible of the weak's crushing. While in the spiritual hypothesis, you do nothing eveil by just following your conclusions individually.

If you influence others, though, you may have to pay some of their debts. Like, if you work a lot on reaching out to someone, then that person you "converted" becomes a vicious corruptor of religion. You sit back and think: "had I known had I done it?" And you pay karmic shit you generated, even with the best of intentions. well that's a bit off-topic...

I am not afraid of death, it can reap me anytime. I don't believe in God, just none proved me it's not God that made me, my parents, etc... So if it was real? It's worth some review and new positioning in life, wether you "believe" or not.

quote:Originally posted by eBlip:

the reason for all these fucked up religions is because, everyone is shit scarred of dying and cant find out the reason they are alive, so they pull out their korans and bibles and hope that something they dont really believe in, will save their sorry ass.

the truth is, by pulling out your bibles and korans ...you just fucked it mate.

if you want the truth... let me know and i may explain.

Firstly, what do you plan to accomplish by saying this? Most theists who read this will just ignore it or debate you on it 'till they are blue in the face and then call on faith and stick their fingers in their ears and go lalalalala, completely ignoring what you have to say.

Secondly, people fear death because it is an unknown quantity. Some religious people "know" what happens after death and it helps them get through the day. They no longer fear death. Most atheists feel the same way when they "know" that nothing happens. They don't fear it anymore for the same reason as the theist. So, why try to burst their bubble? Some people would go insane if you prove them wrong and they then have to deal with death all over again.

Well if it was only because of fear, people can learn detachment from fear of death without believing in anything. Anyway the feeling of abandon and letting go, is one of the keys to enlightenment, wether theist(mono- or poly-) or not(buddhist etc...)

But anyway thopse who need to debate in order to settle things are in the right place here, since they will find food for thought (tasty or not). And that's the way one goes forwards...

God is only a mere hope. People would freak out if they thought there was no god. All people have their boubts though.(even priests)... I am an athiest... whenever I tell my christian friends about what I think "Religion" is they bug out. They become totally bugged out. Panic grasps them.

They are so inscure that they can think of nothing but death. Their common sense leaves them

~TIM~

quote:Originally posted by Beany:

I love life, but If god didn't exist then I wouldn't wanna either.

Does the existence of a sky pixy, so far removed from reality that it can't be percieved or detected by any means and whose existence is of no consequence to anyone, make your life any more or less worth living?

If tomorrow you found out for sure that no gods exist, would it suddenly make your life worse? It wouldn't phase me in the slightest. I wouldn't suddenly lose all my money or contract leprosy.

Either gods exist or they don't. If they do, then so be it. if they don't, then they never did and I guess all the joy, happiness, and every positive experience in your life was false because there wasn't a man sitting on a cloud somewhere.

So all those good times that were had, you have to give them back.

Either your life is worth living, right now, or it isn't. The existence or non-existence of any particular deity is entirely without incident. If your enjoying life, then continue to do so because you enjoy life. The existence of supernatural deities aren't requisite to have a good life.You could win a million dollars and discover that there is no god on the same day, and those million dollars aren't going to depreciate in value because you finally came out of your ignorant preconcieved notion and realized the natural state of things as they has always been.

Either your life has purpose now, or it never did. The existence or nonexistence of any particular thing is irrelevant.

quote:Originally posted by Tadgh:

People would freak out if they thought there was no god.

I don't see you freaking out.

Nor any of the many athiests I know. They're not freaking out because they think there's no God.

Just because you assume some kind of intellectual superiority due to your beliefs, doesn't mean that the people who believe in something contradictory to what you believe are some kind of fucking chicken littles.

Hell, I'd be willing to wager that many of them are far smarter than you are.



[This message has been edited by Kikey_Kikeowitz (edited 07-20-2003).]

Funny to notice that intolerance and irony are not the monopoly of poor little believers. And as a sign of fear, the unability to integrate and investigate seriously any system different from yours, is quite reliable of a sign.

So why stay symptomatic and fearfully stuck in your pseudo-logical mind ruts? Go and investigate, then talk. And I mean, talk atheism, but at least, with some real thought, not as an insult to common sense.

In other words, I encourage you to either learn more about logics and the limits of investigation on God, and come back with backed theories, or else to realize that religion is not just what sick&mad weirdoes taught you it was, and then naturally stop somatizing on that topic that you ignore.

Eblip, you just brought yourself down a few my making this superior stance which was soon destroyed by the brains of this thread. You need to listen and learn and not post things that you thought were intelligent.

Perhaps you should try to rethink your idea because no offense, its just out there.

hey eblip, what is your opinion on atheists who have had near death experiences even though they didn't believe there was an afterlife?

Right....

People are entitled to believe whatever they like..... Its not important to me wether someone agrees or disagrees with what i have to say...

i say it simply because i want to...

i dont have to say what you want me to say...

im free to say what i want....

my thoughts come from inspiration rather than education, i dont need to read up on facts and listen to other peoples ideas....as i have a mind of my own...

noone knows me better than myself...so you cant tell me what is right and wrong.

If its an intellectual battle you are looking for... then go to college.

if you want to know the truth....this i know for a fact...you wont find there.

if you seek the truth then be inspired and look within....and whatever you come up with will be true to you....true to your personal experiences and true to your heart.

i dont care whether religions say to do this or not....its totally irrelevant to me.

i am as i am....

i can see there are a lot of bullshitters around with their heads up their own arse, and want to be seen to look good and splutter out loads of sheer crap, and try to tie people in knotts in orde to win their argument.

the only important thing for them is winning.

all i am saying is, dont just believe, find out directly what is in your innermost being,

quash your ego and KNOW.

if you have been born into a religion...then dont commit unitl you have looked at every single other religion on planet earth....see what they have to say.....if your a disbeliever then dont committ to that until you have first looked at every single other religion on planet earth..

as you know..this is impossible to do in one lifetime...so another approach....which is my personal approach. is to not bother with all these religions and books and priests etc.

just make a sincere effort throughout your life to find out about yourself, why you do things, what are you. analyse your feelings and the things you do and always ask YOURSELF WHY. when you decide to do something ask yourself, who decided, look deep within, and learn to be as you are. and as you learn you will erradicate all the unnecessary stuff, and learn to depend on yourself and not have to listen to what the bullshitters are spurting on about, not have to listen to people who only know about 1 or 10 religions.

ITS YOU WHO HAS TO LIVE THIS LIFE .....SO THE ONLY IMPORTANT THING TO UNDERSTAND.....IS YOU.

Wait - you're an atheist who finds truth in epipiphany?

I can die, now...

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Wait - you're an atheist who finds truth in epipiphany?

I can die, now...

im sorry....i dont understand....me being bit thick....

i looked up epiphany ....which is what i thought you meant, and it said

the manifestation of christ to the magi...

the festival commemorating this...

any manifestation of a god or demigod....

im just curious...as to what your statement meant..

quote:Originally posted by Fuck:

hey eblip, what is your opinion on atheists who have had near death experiences even though they didn't believe there was an afterlife?



i have no opinion that matters....only the experiencer knows the truth of what he experienced...

me having an opinion is just pure worthless speculation really...

and a near death experience, means that they are still alive....even if they are "medically dead".

100 years ago you were medically dead if you stopped breathing.

nowadays you are supposidly dead if you have stopped breathing AND THERE IS NO BRAIN ACTIVITY.

then they just invented cryogenic freezing, so the line of real death is constantly moving.

but if someone 'dies' and then is ressucitated and says, when i was dead.... this and that happend....

i wont believe or disbelieve them, or tell them to start believing, as this experience was TOTALLY PERSONAL, and their interpretation is also something totally personal.

its up to them...its their soul on the line, and hence their responsibility....

ill take care of my own soul, and be totally unaffected by what happens to them.

some people say they can move things with their minds, and they could be telling the truth...but most are probably lying.

whether they are telling the truth or lying is of no use to you or me.

it wont help us personally, so its a waste of the little valuable time we have...

but we all waste time, so why not induldge....

Just for the record, noone ever comes back from being braindead.

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

Just for the record, noone ever comes back from being braindead.



True, you don't have much control over your physical body if your brain cells are dead.

It would appear, however, that there have been cases where there is no brain activity whatsoever and the person in question still maintained a sense of consciousness.

The case of Pam Reynolds comes to mind. It's an interesting read.

I have no fear of dying. Been there, done that, have the karma. Seriously, I have died many times and come back. I shall die again and come back again. I am heavy into recycling.

I love and trust my god, but not out of fear. Granted, the religions you mention are fear-based and generally fucked-up.

I reject organized religion absolutely and embrace spirituality with all my heart and mind and soul.

People can believe what they want. Who says that theists, or athiests are right or wrong. People that make you try to subscribe to their beliefs (eg. bible toting catholics, jahova's witnesses, etc.) are wrong. People have their own beliefs for their own reasons and it should stay that way IMO.

I have since turned away from organised religion and gone the independent spiritual route. I guess most of us our scared of dying to an extent, but for different reasons.

I look forward to death.

I'm not having a good time in this life, I want to start over.

Of course, I'm still leaving the opportunity open for it to improve. Suicide? I think not.

quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

I look forward to death.

I'm not having a good time in this life, I want to start over.

Of course, I'm still leaving the opportunity open for it to improve. Suicide? I think not.

Me to Kikey!

But I think that the fears that fuck up this life will follow me to the next until I've confronted them. So the next life could just be as bad exept the same fears just create different horrible circumstances.

[This message has been edited by Beany (edited 07-22-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Wait - you're an atheist who finds truth in epipiphany?

I can die, now... LOL

It seems this discussion has simply turned into a firefight. But I think some interesting issues have been mentioned.

Namely, the concept of "wanting to die," or of having "a life worth living..."

Perhaps both of these ideas are as equally rooted in the fear of death as we have postulated all religions to be.

Thus, my question is, What does it mean to live life feeling truly comfortable about one's death?

To me, it means being confident that whatever the source of life, I will eventually return there and get rid of all the trouble of life in this world.

Well, is it a contradiction?

Pursuit of happiness vs. detachment

quote:Originally posted by eBlip:

im sorry....i dont understand....me being bit thick....

i looked up epiphany ....which is what i thought you meant, and it said

the manifestation of christ to the magi...

the festival commemorating this...

any manifestation of a god or demigod....

im just curious...as to what your statement meant..

No, perhaps a better word would have been "Gnosis." I meant "epiphany" as refers to a sudden, brilliant burst of understanding based on no outside evidence whatsoever, and hence thought to be the work of God. My bad.

Yes you're bad. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Actually people are afraid of dying because they believe in god and are afraid of going to hell, not the opposite.

Exactly, Eblip, your fluttery words are not impressive...who are you trying to convince, I assume you are trying to convince yourself, and what's with the "look within crap.." The truth you can learn through college easily....M A T H E M A T I C S........That is truth.

most peopl that were educated with a certain religion when they are having doubts about it they dont dare say anything because they fear god will punish them someway..and when they say that god doesn't exist and by coincidence something bad or unlucky happens stio them they think its a sign and believe again basically because they are scared if they dont believe they will get punished..

quote:Originally posted by UrbnTbone:

Yes you're bad. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Don't make me come over there.

Well i was owndering as i was reading this, i think most people dont really care about dying, i mean when i was a kid i thought i lived for ever. now i know eventually my physical body will fail on me, i guess thats what we are referring to as death right?

Well i have never feared death, personally i think anyoen who gets toa certain age, will eventually want to die. but i dont think this topic was stated right, i dont think people are scared of dying, they simply want to know what happens after oyu die, i mean thats why people have religion. so they can assurance that it will be alright once you die.

but how can any religion make such a claim? honestly that is what most religion is about that and simply living life according to our guidelines.

i have never been into the whole religion thing, i simply took life as it is. i realyl dont care if theres life after death or if this is it. i dont care if i die right now, im fine with my life. but i also think alot of kids are sort of forced into there religion as a young child, and simply never leave cause they have grown to accept that this is all there is this religion.

if i leave someting bad will happen to me. i know it happened to me but then my family got lazy and just stopped going and then i sort of had a realization but thats how i see the world of religion.