First let me state that this is in no way an attack on any religion, people(s), or anything. I respect other peoples beliefs as just that, your own personal beliefs.



THE ROCK THEORY:

" IF god is all-mighty and all-powerful, he could, in theory, create a rock which even he could not lift."

Now if he cannot create the rock, or can create it, but can't lift it, how can he be all-mighty and all-powerful?

Your thoughts.

This rock of your own creation you can't even lift. This is not meant as an attack on any of your thoughts. Just a friendly reminder, that you are not a creator so you could discuss what is scud-range above your (and any) human mind.

So please show intelligent thought, instead of self-depreciating irony you intended to offense God with... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

I have no god, but UBT is so right; belief is what you talk about, not physics.

An omnimax being's properties already contradict themselves simply by their definitions. No experiment is neccessary.

Dark bulldozer bringing the debate to ground zero...

But hey, let's follow you in your nonsense.

Let's say, huh, atheism is a religion, and its creed is fanatical since it was never proven, plus, it can't insure anyone their life will be void of worry. What a false god is that?

Or: I hear a neighbour sometimes but I never see him/her, so that must be an hallucination, there can't be a neighbour since no proof was given.

Or, any nonsense that will yet make more sense than your typical teen reactive-destructive rage.

Wanna make sense? Learn, about logic, agnosticism, skepticism. Don't be fanatical-blind.

quote:Originally posted by UrbnTbone:

But hey, let's follow you in your nonsense.

Let's say, huh, atheism is a religion, and its creed is fanatical since it was never proven,

Do you believe in the pink unicorns?

WHY NOT!?!?! You can't prove they don't exist, can you?

quote:Or: I hear a neighbour sometimes but I never see him/her, so that must be an hallucination, there can't be a neighbour since no proof was given.

Except you don't ever hear him, or have any evidence of the existence of your neighbour.

quote:Wanna make sense? Learn, about logic, agnosticism, skepticism. Don't be fanatical-blind.

*Mocking laughter*

Yeah, laughter I didn't intend because I don't follow ways that are intended to harm anyone.

But exposing nonsense by other nonsense, is what I did. Read the post again if you got me wrong.

There is no proof for God, and no proof against God. All the rest is commentary.

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

Do you believe in the pink unicorns?

WHY NOT!?!?! You can't prove they don't exist, can you?



Dude what's your obsession with pink unicorns?

Couldn't you think of a more masculine example?

If there were a being that were to create the universe, and all of the stars and planets and everything... do you really think our human brains could comprehend everything about it? I'm not saying God is All Powerful or God isn't all powerful, I'm just saying that human logic is a tool of humans... the way we think is very flawed, so why can't this system of logic also be completely flawed and only seem right to us when in reality, we're completely wrong?

That might not make any sense at all, sorry. I just woke up

aye, often I have problems with religion, however I find myself believing that there has to be a higher power. My reasoning (Bare with me, this is hard for me to express in writing.): Everything post big bang, or whatever theory you choose to believe, might just follow natural laws that govern such things. However, there has to be something that set off the first the big bang. There has to be a divine spark. And that divine spark is my god.

hugz,

Abner

To say that logic is flawed, and to try to use that statement to shoehorn a God into the equation by jamming it where ignorance is, as is always done, is not only unworthy, but fatal to the argument. For the argument that argues the existence of Gods presupposes logic itself.

The rock theory is contradictory. An omnipotent being can doing anything it wants. and yet can't do anything it wants if it wills it not. So it's a contradiction. Sure god could create a rock too heavy for him to lift. But he could also make himself strong enough to lift the unliftable rock.

Oh, here's a good one. If God is an infinite being, and hence doesn't possess any attributes that would exclude other attributes, how can that be discerned from nonexistence?

And UTB, atheism isn't a religion - unless you're some disgruntled, black-clad gothboy who turns it into one to piss daddy off. Like the name implies, it is simply the absence of another belief: theism. Since it isn't logically possible to prove a negative statement, the burden of proof falls squarely on the theistic side of the fence.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

atheism isn't a religion - unless you're some disgruntled, black-clad gothboy who turns it into one to piss daddy off.ROFL quote: Like the name implies, it is simply the absence of another belief: theism. OK but it has its fanatics, just as a religion. quote: Since it isn't logically possible to prove a negative statement, the burden of proof falls squarely on the theistic side of the fence. Why? You exist, and you suppose that you have a cause of causes. That is logical, anything we know of have a cause, so why when it comes to God suddenly the logic is reversed and you need to prove? No, you need to prove there is no god, else the general world patterns point to a cause of all causes.

Atheism has its fanatics, but they're mostly pretentious whiners, and I avoid pretentious people - particularly whiners - whenever possible.

I'm not saying there's no "cause of causes" here. Merely that the idea of an infinite, omnipotent, omnipresent deity is a simply not a reasonable answer to the aforementioned conundrum.

Congratulation to DarkFire47 for having the first reasonable response.

Heres something for everyone:



1) if god exists, and is constantly watching down on us, how are there millions of innocent people starving to death in this world?

2) Science teaches us that matter cannot be created or destroyed, so how did the big bang occur?...but in addition, when did God begin his "reign" as people call it, the word itself implies a timeline.

Now don't go saying he was always there, he never dies, was never born beacuse there is one simple truth to everything

for something to exist it needs to be created.

were all discussing

UNIVERSE <<(created by)<< GOD?

i wanna know

GOD <<(created by)<< ?????

never mind,

thats why i'm agnostic, we can't begin to comprehend "god".

remember the bible was written by the same people who thought the earth was flat.

but theres also another little theory in my head at the moment, what if he did create the universe and then went away. What is modern religion then? a prehistoric control system that was used and abbused by monarchs and now has no purpose in modern times except to attract millions of insecure people...



i close by reminding you that this is only my opinion, nothing to start a war over.

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

Do you believe in the pink unicorns?

WHY NOT!?!?! You can't prove they don't exist, can you?



But you can't prove that they do, so why even argue about it?

Idiot. Your 'humor' has been used 265 times before by so many different people it's hard to keep count.

Put some thought into it next time.

quote:Originally posted by Insanity540:

1) if god exists, and is constantly watching down on us, how are there millions of innocent people starving to death in this world?

Because it's up to you to better yourself.

quote:2) Science teaches us that matter cannot be created or destroyed, so how did the big bang occur?...but in addition, when did God begin his "reign" as people call it, the word itself implies a timeline.

Big bang in theory = lots of matter that already existed conserved so tightly that, for some reason, it exploded.

I know, it makes no sense.

God began his 'reign,' around the same time the universe started existing.

That doesn't make any sense, either. Nothing makes sense. Nothing at all.

quote:Now don't go saying he was always there, he never dies, was never born beacuse there is one simple truth to everything

for something to exist it needs to be created.

But you just said yourself that science teaches us that matter cannot be created or destroyed.

If matter cannot be created or destroyed, how difficult is it to assume that other things in the universe could exist that cannot be created or destroyed?

quote:never mind,

thats why i'm agnostic, we can't begin to comprehend "god".

remember the bible was written by the same people who thought the earth was flat.

You're right there, though. We can't even begin to truly comprehend "god."

Shouldn't even try. When we do, through philosophy or science, we just end up with more questions than we started out with.





[This message has been edited by Kikey_Kikeowitz (edited 07-23-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

I'm not saying there's no "cause of causes" here. Merely that the idea of an infinite, omnipotent, omnipresent deity is a simply not a reasonable answer to the aforementioned conundrum. I bet you're more angry than armed http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) on that one: how can a finite unit of consciousness, express sane opinion on what an infinite consciousness should or not be?

Agreed. But if that's so, how can a finite unit of consciousness claim to know that a God DOES exist? And if that God is infinite, having no discernable trait that precludes any other, how is that different from nonexistence?

You see, UTB, I'm ALWAYS armed with the double-edged sword of Reason. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Insanity540:

Congratulation to DarkFire47 for having the first reasonable response.

Heres something for everyone:



1) if god exists, and is constantly watching down on us, how are there millions of innocent people starving to death in this world?

perhaps that 'type' of god is a fallacy?

quote:

2) Science teaches us that matter cannot be created or destroyed, so how did the big bang occur?...but in addition, when did God begin his "reign" as people call it, the word itself implies a timeline.

Now don't go saying he was always there, he never dies, was never born beacuse there is one simple truth to everything

for something to exist it needs to be created.

Theory: Humans postulate a beginning, or 'creation', because of the apparent mortality of our being.

maybe the 'cause' is the non-existence of nothing, zero does not exist, all is explainable by math, all physical events are explicable by physical laws through the logic of math. Zero does not, and cannot exist, by it's very nature, nothing cannot exist, there is nowhere where zero exists, that is nonsense to even speak of a place where nothing exists.

Perhaps we, and the universe, exist because existence is the imperative, be-cause -- there can be nothing? This also sounds nonsense:-)

perhaps it is simply the absence of nothing, zero is a theoretical concept and does not exist - therefore the universe exists because nothing does not?

A universe balanced between positive and negative? The constant interaction of positives and negatives is known to exert electro magnetic forces that inititiate electrical currents that form a chaos of triangular connections the intersections of which create matter.....



quote:

were all discussing

UNIVERSE <<(created by)<< GOD?

i wanna know

GOD <<(created by)<< ?????

never mind,

thats why i'm agnostic, we can't begin to comprehend "god".

remember the bible was written by the same people who thought the earth was flat.

but theres also another little theory in my head at the moment, what if he did create the universe and then went away.

Where? where could 'god' go?

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

You see, UTB, I'm ALWAYS armed with the double-edged sword of Reason. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif) Me too, if we are referring to the same reason. That's why I'm not angry http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Dark_Magneto is right. an omnimax's characteristics or traits contradict them selves. I would bet any god that she or he cannot create a rock that he or she truly could not lift, for it is impossible. they are not all-powerful. look at our world - it has limits, physics, ideas of control.

Whatever situation we can concoct in our heads might sound logical, but that doesn't mean it's plausible.

Take god for example. pretend i'm muslim. according to my god, your god doesn't exist. my got contradicts your god. O.K., what does this mean? it means that contradictions are a clue to realizing something in the argument is wrong, becuase contradictions are, although theoretically acceptable, virtually impossible.



EDIT - i think i said this but for those people who can't think for themselves; god does not exist.

EDIT 2 - these are my beliefs.



[This message has been edited by Casper (edited 08-23-2003).]