...you finally accept with 100% faith that you don't know anything.

Each individual knows for 100% certain that they exist beyond any and all doubt whatsoever. It's the only axiomatic statement.

True, but that also means that you are aware of yourself. You can't be enlightened to the fact that you're everything whilst going around believing that you are you and you only.

I may be wrong on both account btw. It's open for discussion.

quote:Originally posted by Beany:

Enlightenment comes when...one realises the only constant is change.

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

Originally posted by Beany:

Enlightenment comes when...one realises the only constant is change.



Not really. The universe(s?) is filled with things beyond our knowledge and ken. How are you to know that somehow, everything is dynamic? As stated before, the only thing we can really know is ourselves...but is that even true? You might say "Of course!" but think about it...from the beginning of our lives we are filled with a certain paradigm, a belief of how the world works.

Some people have surpassed that, a lot have, to tell the truth. But maybe beyond everything lies a truth so far beyond any reality paradigm that nobody has figured it out yet.

My brain is broken.

Nietzsche once said something along the lines of we say lightning flashes, but are there really a lighning and a flash? Because of the subject/predicate distinction in our langauge we trick ourselves into thinking there's a subject "lightning" and it's doing something "flashes". But there is no being behind the doing. People work the same way we say Daddy drinks, daddy works, daddy eats, daddy scratches. Cutting to the point, you are a sum of all your actions. nothing more.

In essence, not only do you not know anything, but there is no "you" as most people consider it.

All that aside I feel that Enlightenment comes within a striking moment of death.

Sorry to stray from the subject, but here's a crazy lightning related thought.

Behind the illusions of life you get reality, which is a complete mass of lightning(ness).

What we see as lightning is actually a temporary tear in the illusion.

How's that for a mad notion?

quote:Originally posted by Beany:

Sorry to stray from the subject, but here's a crazy lightning related thought.

Behind the illusions of life you get reality, which is a complete mass of lightning(ness).

What we see as lightning is actually a temporary tear in the illusion.

How's that for a mad notion?

you're on fire lately, go man go.

How about when you close your eyes there are absolutely no limitations to your universe, so why should eyes wide open make a difference?

I doubt it is possible to adequately verbalize what enlightenment is "like." Kind of like trying to explain a sunset to a blind person, or sex to an artificial intelligence. Or compassion to a Republican.

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

How about when you close your eyes there are absolutely no limitations to your universe, so why should eyes wide open make a difference?

True, although it does make a difference in the way that it limits our universe. Some of my best times have been when my eyes were closed and I was using my imagination. With a good imagination you can have such a kick ass life. It's a shame adulthood tries to take it away from you.

I heard the first step toward enlightenment is detachment. Distance and love for reality as it is, without the will to change anything. Just observing and understanding with the postulate that you will get closer to the cause of everything/the essential mind.

Your Lightning idea, or should i say Nietesche(sp don't give a crap) uh..well we can prove that there is lightning and that it flashes.....how?

M A T H E M A T I C S

Kakkaraun

off topic, but, small world

home of the mayo clinic

i reside there as well

quote:Originally posted by Beany:

...you finally accept with 100% faith that you don't know anything.

You do know something. You know that you don't know anything else. In this way you know everything.

quote:Originally posted by bkc:

You do know something. You know that you don't know anything else. In this way you know everything.

What is your obsession with paradoxes?

In any case, your attachment to the belief that you don't know anything else is still a barrier that gets in your way to enlightenment. Attachment to anything stops you from 'letting go' which is what is needed for mental liberation. 'Letting go' being the act of surrendering all you thought you knew and allowing yourself to go with the flow. That flow being the flow of energy.

This is why meditation helps towards enlightenment, because whilst meditating the only thing you are attached to is the act of meditating. But as soon as meditation becomes completely natural then baM!

(I haven't explained myself as best I could but I hope you still get my meaning)



[This message has been edited by Beany (edited 07-25-2003).]

quote: You do know something. You know that you don't know anything else. In this way you know everything.

You know you exist. I thought we explained it to you before...

Enlightenment comes when you no longer seek enlightenment.

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

I doubt it is possible to adequately verbalize what enlightenment is "like."

It is exactly like unenlightenment. No joke or paradoxical wrestling. When you achieve "enlightenment" everything will appear exactly as it does to you right now.

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

Each individual knows for 100% certain that they exist beyond any and all doubt whatsoever. It's the only axiomatic statement.

For the most part, but if someone occasionally considers that they may not exist (in the manner in which they perceive themselves, at least), then the axiom isn't so absolute.

quote:Originally posted by Beany:

Enlightenment comes...

...during strong feelings of love, spiritual contentment and orgasm, regardless of how fleeting these moments may be.

quote:Originally posted by user X:

...during strong feelings of love, spiritual contentment and orgasm, regardless of how fleeting these moments may be.

Yeah, I think I agree with this also. To run in-line with my original post it basically means when you are so immersed in life, you have no time to 'think' anything at all. IE: For the moments when you are having an unbelievable orgasm, or whatever, you don't get chance to think or rationalize at all, since you're so involved in being.

I read somewhere that many of the soliders during world wars had strange happy memories of being in the war. During battle they were so in the moment that they had no time to think at all, and so all they could do was be immersed in the experience and see it from a none judgemental point of view.

[This message has been edited by Beany (edited 07-26-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by user X:

For the most part, but if someone occasionally considers that they may not exist (in the manner in which they perceive themselves, at least), then the axiom isn't so absolute.



Well, they have to exist in order to even consider their existence.

In other words, if you think you don't exist, then you most certainly do.

quote:Originally posted by user X:

...during strong feelings of love, spiritual contentment and orgasm, regardless of how fleeting these moments may be.

That's not "enlightenment". Those are temporary transcendental experiences.

You can be a total driveling idiot and feel "in love", "content" and have orgasms.



[This message has been edited by lordsjohnson (edited 07-27-2003).]

Enlightenment begins when people crawl out of their little ignorant shells and start understanding the world around them.

Enlightenment is not the realisation of the world around you, it is the realisation that everything is a state of mind, you are beyond this world, it is when you are able to actually observe your thoughts, when you are not connected to your body, you have a body you aren't one, that is a fact.

...perception is a matter of perception...

... You finally accept that even by knowing everything, it amounts to nothing unless you're detached from pride, hope for a reward, fear of punishment etc...

This point-counter point, like most things to me at least, seems like a battle of words between those who percieve themselves as thinkers and those that percieve themselves as doers. Whether conciously or not when a majority of people choose sides in this battle of words life they have thier own idea on what is the best way to be. The person believes what he believes is true, otherwise he wouldn't believe it. Majority of people seem to be split on this issue, on the one side the right way to be is to never let any emotion get the best of you, keep a clear head and steady focus on everything during situations that need quick decisions, usually less concerned with the "reality" that is everything that won't matter when you die, and more concerned with contemplating matters they or no one else has control over, don't care for small talk and don't care much about what most call success and laugh at the foolishness of the ones who do. These are the thinkers.

The other side is where the movers and shakers are, they wanna grab life by the balls and show it who's in charge, and not usually afraid to do so. They mold the actions of others with what most would call leadership and through this use emotions and pointless small talk to shape their own reality. They want the best and believe in he with the most stuff at the end wins and laugh at the foolishness of the ones that don't. These are the doers.

I believe Enlightenment in the consensus of the term lies within finding the perfect infinite balance between the thinkers and the doers. This being impossible since change will always be prevalent as life and existance is a ever-moving entity orbiting through cycles of pleasure and pain and the utter lack of both. From knowing nothing at the begining, to knowing everything at the end. Which just might turn out to be nothing afterall, or maybe something more granduer. Either way, death will strip it from your conciousness and send you on your way to (or possibly back to) the true existensial plane. Making it all pointless, that is the point.

Side note for the person who said mathematics could debunk the lighntning/flash explanation......you missed the point. You're getting lost in the language, try to look at it like you don't think like you. To learn true wisdom, one most be inclined to believe what he does not believe. Unless of course one was born wise.

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

they have to exist in order to even consider their existence.

That act of considering their existence, excludes them from the maxim, and then it becomes just a generalization. (I wouldn't have said anything if you weren't overselling it to begin with. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) )

quote:Originally posted by Beany:

What is your obsession with paradoxes?

In any case, your attachment to the belief that you don't know anything else is still a barrier that gets in your way to enlightenment. Attachment to anything stops you from 'letting go' which is what is needed for mental liberation. 'Letting go' being the act of surrendering all you thought you knew and allowing yourself to go with the flow. That flow being the flow of energy.

This is why meditation helps towards enlightenment, because whilst meditating the only thing you are attached to is the act of meditating. But as soon as meditation becomes completely natural then baM!

(I haven't explained myself as best I could but I hope you still get my meaning)



[This message has been edited by Beany (edited 07-25-2003).]

I don't get the baM! part, but the rest of it reminds me of the book I read, The Power of Now. And I agree with quite a bit of what you are saying here.

I would agree that being attached to certain beliefs keeps you from growing. But I see what I am believing in as being beyond that "weakness", and being the only belief that can prevent a person from being ensnared in that trap of being attached to a certain belief, even though attachment to a belief is involved, but the belief has unbelief built into it.

quote:Originally posted by Beany:

...you finally accept with 100% faith that you don't know anything.

Are we saying the same thing?

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

You know you exist. I thought we explained it to you before...



I questioned existence.

quote:Originally posted by UrbnTbone:

... You finally accept that even by knowing everything, it amounts to nothing unless you're detached from pride, hope for a reward, fear of punishment etc...

Urbn!

As much as I agree that pride etc. are states of mind that we, ideally, should stay away from, I must point out that detachment in itself, is far from a solution.

Detachment may seem like the natural opposite of attachment, but is it really?!

The problem of attachment is permanence: we cannot hold on to attachments forever. Knowing that, we (try to) detach ourselves, believing that we now have the "mantra" to cope with all the pain and problems attachment brings us...

Then we end up attached to the concept of detachment and spend the rest of our lives trying to make the goal of detachment into a reality...

Riding another animal, but still on the very same merry-go-round!

FoxLeonard

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

I believe Enlightenment in the consensus of the term lies within finding the perfect infinite balance between the thinkers and the doers.

Mr Traffic Lights!

The balance you are talking about, is a balance that should be created within each and every individual (not between them). And it should ideally not be a balance at all; certainly not an equal balance...

You are what you do, not what you say you want to do. You (often) think to avoid to have do anything. If not, you may still very likely end up doing nothing...

Thinking is a mediocre alternative to acting. The process of thinking can easily consume all your energy.

Act, don't think!

FoxLeonard

quote:Originally posted by FoxLeonard:

Mr Traffic Lights!

The balance you are talking about, is a balance that should be created within each and every individual (not between them). And it should ideally not be a balance at all; certainly not an equal balance...

You are what you do, not what you say you want to do. You (often) think to avoid to have do anything. If not, you may still very likely end up doing nothing...

Thinking is a mediocre alternative to acting. The process of thinking can easily consume all your energy.

Act, don't think!

FoxLeonard

You missed my point oddly enough by making my point.

I wasn't saying a balance between all people (although that would be nice), I was talking of the balance within oneself as you speak of between thinking and doing.

Acting without understanding does little (if any) good, and the good it would wind up doing would most likely by the will of another. Since you don't think to understand or even question.

Understanding without acting also does little if any good. Because no one can read your thoughts, and speaking without doing becomes idle thoughts or pipe dreams. The trick is within the balance, or to merely flow with the ride of loops between thinking and doing, loving and hating, jelousy and pride, night and day, winter and summer, etc. etc.

It confuses me how easily and readily the messages I attempt to get across confuse people. The opposite meaning is often interpretted somehow. Oh, well go figure.

...when you know what enlightenment is. Otherwise, not at all.

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

You missed my point oddly enough by making my point.

Traffic Lights!

I actually got your point(s), and I never claimed to "refute" anything you said. I just went from it and added some emphasis, if you like...

quote:I wasn't saying a balance between all people (although that would be nice), I was talking of the balance within oneself as you speak of between thinking and doing.

So I understood, even if it was far from clear in your earlier post.

quote:Acting without understanding does little (if any) good, of and the good it would wind up doing would most likely by the will of another. Since you don't think to understand or even question.

Understanding without acting also does little if any good. Because no one can read your thoughts, and speaking without doing becomes idle thoughts or pipe dreams. The trick is within the balance, or to merely flow with the ride of loops between thinking and doing, loving and hating, jelousy and pride, night and day, winter and summer, etc. etc.

I can only agree!

quote:It confuses me how easily and readily the messages I attempt to get across confuse people. The opposite meaning is often interpretted somehow

The kind of confusion your posts, initially, create is not necessarily a bad thing. It gives you a chance to reinforce certain points and elaborate on essentials, while also making it clear what you did not mean.

Remember that you don't post what you actually mean to say. People will not evaluate your words as you wrote them, but as they came to (mis-)understand them...

FoxLeonard

I've started coming to understand that enlightenment must involve a connection. I thought this before, but it's begining to solidify as a deep connection not one to be understood as many of us already understand, but indeed one that is to be felt

Some of you may cry at weddings, or feel a sense of pride when you watch your friend/sibling graduate, I know everyone with a pair of testacles groans and maybe grabs to check when you see someone recieve a swift kick or something similar.

Enlightenment is a constant feeling of feelings, when you can just feel all the emotion all the energy wave through you as it passes, wrap around you, take from you, leave with you.....

or maybe not, I just not I have to keep trying to relate what's in my head to others with my words. I try to help, but you make your own decisions.

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

I've started coming to understand that enlightenment must involve a connection. I thought this before, but it's begining to solidify as a deep connection not one to be understood as many of us already understand, but indeed one that is to be felt



In synch perhaps? a "connection" made when our left and right hemisphere brainwaves are synchronised together and, with a specific frequency/vibration/harmony of the governing energy of the universe.

'Connected' in an electrical sense, quite literally! As the neurons fire in our brains and send messages via electrical impulses - 'connected' when the electro-magnetic energy output of our brain synchronises with ...? The All/God/the governing principle/Eloheim ? Eachother?

My thoughts - inspired by yours http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)Thanks!

maybe life is a video game, the newest of new, where all bots are self aware, and you live among them, and start wars, or go for peace, or just go get a gf :-)

quote:Originally posted by Hammer&Sickle:

Your Lightning idea, or should i say Nietesche(sp don't give a crap) uh..well we can prove that there is lightning and that it flashes.....how?

M A T H E M A T I C S

ok...your in idiot...mathmatics is another flawed creation by a flawed race in in attempt to grasp a parfect reality...

life isnt perfect...but what does that have to do with reality as far as reality's concernd?

the best thing you have to work with is a pure mind...mathmatics fucks that up becuase math is flawed therefore your stupid if you think mathmatics can "prove" reality now it CAN EXPLAIN REALITY but then again so can my fucking BIBLE you prison BITCH



Regards,

RabidWolf

p.s. most good scientists are/where believesrs in atleast SOME allpowerfull god...what more do i need to say to get some sense into your head? ( assuming you use the one wich can have sense in it...)