I'm interested in the views of NON-CHRISTIANS as to thier belief(s) on who Jesus is/was and what his purpose and message was.....eg..was he a prophet?, a God, Just a good man, a nut, philosopher or never existed?? I would like the opinions of some Jews or Muslims or Atheist or agnostic or other. LET ME KNOW WITCH GROUP YOU IDENTIFY WITH and what your beliefs are. I'm not here to argue with you and I won't attack your views. I'm just tryin to learn something here. thanks.

I'm identifying with the Jews on that one:

Jesus was the son of a bride who was seduced by a roman soldier, and invented the whole "immaculate conception" legend because she knew her dumb husband would trust even that. So the whole story started.

Nevertheless, Jesus (JeShU) in Hebrew, studied the Torah, and could even have become one of the great rabbis of his time, if not for a pathologic pride. He took offense of his teacher's rebuttal, and went to Rome to learn sorcery. Then he came back to the land and started doing magic, with the poor and naive believing it was "miracles".

I'd consider him a prophet, a very inspired man, but not the Messiah.

I think he was operating on a higher frequency or something, though. You cannot be a human and follow Jesus' advice. It's just plain impossible. Who in their right mind is going to turn the other cheek?

He had the right idea with martyrdom, though. Look how much he accomplished in death.

[This message has been edited by Kikey_Kikeowitz (edited 08-18-2003).]

I believe that everyone is a spiritual path to rejoin with god by realising, or remembering, that they are god, or part of, and understand exactly why.

You can only understand why once you have learned all the secrets about life and it's concepts. Jesus had reached this stage. He had learned that he is god (as we all are). He knew the secrets of life and how to use it, just as god does (since he is the creator). Some call this enlightenment. He understood how the power of belief altered brainwaves in a way that can manipulate energy into bringing forth what he believed.

He was a man who preached so much wisdom to people that was misunderstood by so many people who passed it down the line.

I don't think Jesus was anymore of a spiritual figure than 'Buddah', or 'Hare Krsna' or whoever else had achieved enlightenment.

He died on the cross for people's sins. But this is also misunderstood. Spiritual masters have the ability of taking people's karma and suffering the results so that those people don't have to suffer the effects of karma re-balancing. This could be the exchange of energies that have become become attached to the soul. Good for bad.

Jesus was an amazing man, but anyone enlightened is amazing. They know how to run perfectly in tune with the universe or with the flow of energy.

Also, since he has achieve enlightenment/understood all lifes concepts/ has flawless wisdom, he could preach these concepts to other people. Concepts such as 'Turn the other cheek'.

Which isn't misunderstood, but neither is it generally understood.

[This message has been edited by ---Beany--- (edited 08-18-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

I believe that everyone is a spiritual path to rejoin with god by realising, or remembering, that they are god, or part of, and understand exactly why.

You can only understand why once you have learned all the secrets about life and it's concepts. Jesus had reached this stage. He had learned that he is god (as we all are). He knew the secrets of life and how to use it, just as god does (since he is the creator). Some call this enlightenment. He understood how the power of belief altered brainwaves in a way that can manipulate energy into bringing forth what he believed.

He was a man who preached so much wisdom to people that was misunderstood by so many people who passed it down the line.

I don't think Jesus was anymore of a spiritual figure than 'Buddah', or 'Hare Krsna' or whoever else had achieved enlightenment.

He died on the cross for people's sins. But this is also misunderstood. Spiritual masters have the ability of taking people's karma and suffering the results so that those people don't have to suffer the effects of karma re-balancing. This could be the exchange of energies that have become become attached to the soul. Good for bad.

Jesus was an amazing man, but anyone enlightened is amazing. They know how to run perfectly in tune with the universe or with the flow of energy.

Also, since he has achieve enlightenment/understood all lifes concepts/ has flawless wisdom, he could preach these concepts to other people. Concepts such as 'Turn the other cheek'.

Which isn't misunderstood, but neither is it generally understood.

[This message has been edited by ---Beany--- (edited 08-18-2003).]

Very interesting. I would like to know what group you identify with, if any. like new age, athiest,agnostic or whatever.

Who was/is Jesus? Why not try reading the bible sometime. They talk a lot about him in it http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

[This message has been edited by LwaysTired (edited 08-19-2003).]

Some very interesting posts in this thread.

quote:Originally posted by jonboyw75:

I would like to know what group you identify with, if any. like new age, athiest,agnostic or whatever.

I don't realy know, sorry. I guess it's a mixture of many.

Jesus was the kind of person who, if alive today, most right-wing fundamentalists would hate.

Mmm, irony.

LwaysTired spoketh forth and sayeth:

quote:Who was/is Jesus? Why not try reading the bible sometime. They talk a lot about him in it

Problem: The bible was written from memory 70 years after Jesus disappeared, then it was edited by Constantinople for political gain.

Kakkaraun sayeth as well:

quote:Jesus was the kind of person who, if alive today, most right-wing fundamentalists would hate.

Mmm, irony.

Like modern Constantinoples!





[This message has been edited by browncloud (edited 08-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by browncloud (edited 08-19-2003).]

I don't know who or what Jesus was, but I can tell you what Jesus is...

Jesus is something which Christians talk to in their heads... an imaginary friend, to some extent. No-one in any current generation can possibly know if the stories about the son of god are true, though many people will tell you that they know for a fact that they are true/false.

Someone who believes in something through blind faith is most likely unable to live a life without some sort of mystical entity swirling around them... we can't see it, they can't see it, but they know that it is there because it makes their lives easier.

I'm athiest by the way, still recovering from a Catholic upbringing.

Christians, listen to "Eulogy" by Tool...

I own the album. Your point? http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

I believe that everyone is a spiritual path to rejoin with god by realising, or remembering, that they are god, or part of, and understand exactly why.

You can only understand why once you have learned all the secrets about life and it's concepts. Jesus had reached this stage. He had learned that he is god (as we all are). He knew the secrets of life and how to use it, just as god does (since he is the creator). Some call this enlightenment. He understood how the power of belief altered brainwaves in a way that can manipulate energy into bringing forth what he believed.

He was a man who preached so much wisdom to people that was misunderstood by so many people who passed it down the line.

I don't think Jesus was anymore of a spiritual figure than 'Buddah', or 'Hare Krsna' or whoever else had achieved enlightenment.

He died on the cross for people's sins. But this is also misunderstood. Spiritual masters have the ability of taking people's karma and suffering the results so that those people don't have to suffer the effects of karma re-balancing. This could be the exchange of energies that have become become attached to the soul. Good for bad.

Jesus was an amazing man, but anyone enlightened is amazing. They know how to run perfectly in tune with the universe or with the flow of energy.

Also, since he has achieve enlightenment/understood all lifes concepts/ has flawless wisdom, he could preach these concepts to other people. Concepts such as 'Turn the other cheek'.

Which isn't misunderstood, but neither is it generally understood.

[This message has been edited by ---Beany--- (edited 08-18-2003).]

Right on Beany, couldn't have said it better myself, when'd you start reading my thoughts. ROCK ON with yo bad self.

*starts playing the theme from shaft*

I think I should point out that the Bible is the only evidence that Jesus ever even existed.

Any of the other evidence that surfaces from time to time (like the recent ossory of James) is invariably faked.

I'm an atheist, BTW, but that should be irrelevant.

None of us know anything with certainty about these matters, that's what we know for sure.

We'd have to die, but nobody that has died has told us livin' folks anything certain, we know that for sure.

It's all speculation wether ye be Athiest or Religious, yeah, we know!

[This message structure was not posted as was written by browncloud

(reposted 08-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by browncloud (edited 08-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by browncloud (edited 08-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by browncloud (edited 08-19-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by LwaysTired:

Who was/is Jesus? Why not try reading the bible sometime. They talk a lot about him in it http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

[This message has been edited by LwaysTired (edited 08-19-2003).]

I've read the bible (whole thing more than once), the Koran, the Gnostics and other spurrios Christian writings, the writings of Early Christians and more. I know who I believe Jesus is. I'm interested in other views primarily the views on Non-Christians. Are thier any Jews or Muslims on here? I would like to hear some of thier views also

quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

He had the right idea with martyrdom, though. Look how much he accomplished in death. Oh yeah he accomplished a lot: during two millenia there were packs of angry peasants hunting for Jews every Dec. 25th: "Revenge for God's death!!!"

Such a bastard's accomplishment, yeah!

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

Right on Beany, couldn't have said it better myself, when'd you start reading my thoughts. ROCK ON with yo bad self.

*starts playing the theme from shaft*

Dude, we rule!!

jesus was a sociopath

he convinced a bunch of people he was the son of god. i think it would be pretty easy to do 2000 years ago if you had any kind of intelligence.

quote:Originally posted by UrbnTbone:

Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

He had the right idea with martyrdom, though. Look how much he accomplished in death. Oh yeah he accomplished a lot: during two millenia there were packs of angry peasants hunting for Jews every Dec. 25th: "Revenge for God's death!!!"

Such a bastard's accomplishment, yeah!



I never said it was a good accomplishment.

You do have to admit, though. He was a booster.

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

I think I should point out that the Bible is the only evidence that Jesus ever even existed.

Actually, sources have emerged in the relatively recent past that include such historic figures as Josephus mentioning Jesus (Yahoshua ben Joseph) by name. Just thought I'd mention it.

Anyhoo, on to the matter at hand. Jesus was, simply put, a claimant to the messianic throne and a Jewish patriot. When you read through the New Testament and check the facts, you see that a lot of the stuff in there is true, but metaphorical. Like where it says Jesus spent three years in the wilderness - this makes a lot more sense when you consider that the quasi-Christian settlement at Qumran was colloquially known as "the Wilderness", and it took three years to become fully initiated into the group.

Things like the "fisher of men" and "water to wine" stuff are also revealed to be common metaphors for converting new members to the Nazarene movement, not "miracles."

Edit: Marksman, there's no evidence that Jesus ever claimed to be the Son of God in the literal sense; this was a common moniker taken by Jewish rebels of the day. The first person to verifiably mention Jesus' supposed divinity is Paul, and I'd hardly call him trustworthy.

[This message has been edited by Armed&Angry (edited 08-19-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by browncloud:

[B]LwaysTired spoketh forth and sayeth:

[QUOTE]Who was/is Jesus? Why not try reading the bible sometime. They talk a lot about him in it

Problem: The bible was written from memory 70 years after Jesus disappeared, then it was edited by Constantinople for political gain.

God would not have let men and their poisoned minds just write the bible from memory. God made sure that the bible said exactly what he wanted it to say....period.

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

I think I should point out that the Bible is the only evidence that Jesus ever even existed.

Any of the other evidence that surfaces from time to time (like the recent ossory of James) is invariably faked.

I'm an atheist, BWT, but that should be irrelevant.

Actually, Jews, Muslims, pagans (neo or otherwise), and Roman historians accept the existence of, and cite interactions with, the man known as Jesus.

At this point, referring to Armed&Angry's reference to a Yahoshua ben Joseph, incites a passage from Edinger's The Christian Archetype: A Jungian Commentary on the Life of Christ. Thus quoth the psychologist:

quote:p. 32-33, on the chapter concerning Nativity:

Although the birth of Christ occurred in Bethlehem, his home town was Nazareth in Galilee. He thus has two cities of origin. This double aspect of his birth leads to the legendary idea that he was twins. Docetism elaborated the notion of a double Jesus - Jesus the human being and Christ the divine spirit that descended on him at baptism, lived through him during his ministry and abandoned him on the cross. The Pistis Sophia recounts a story of Jesus' boyhood in which a phantom spirit comes to Mary asking, "Where is Jesus my brother, that I meet with him?" When they were brought together, "he took thee (Jesus) in his arms and kissed thee, and thou also didst kiss him. Ye became one."(Pistis Sophia, ed. and trans. GRS Mead, p. 101)

According to legend the Messiah will have a double nature:

The later, mainly Cabalistic tradition speaks of two Messiahs, the Messiah ben Joseph (or ben Ephraim) and the Messiah ben David. They were compared to Moses and Aaron, also to two roes, and this is on the authority of the Song of Solomon 4:5: "Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins." Messiah ben Joseph is, according to Deuteronomy 32:17, the "firstling of his bullock," and Messiah ben David rides on an ass. Messiah ben Joseph is the first, Messiah ben David the second. Messiah ben Joseph must die in order to "atone with his blood for the children of Yahweh." He will fall in the fight against Gog and Magog, and Armilus will kill him. Armilus is the Anti-Messiah, whom Satan begot on a block of marble. He will be killed by Messiah ben David in his turn. Afterwards, ben David will fetch the new Jerusalem down from heaven and bring ben Joseph back to life. This ben Joseph plays a strange role in later tradition. Tabari, the commentator on the Koran, mentions that the Antichrist will be a king of the Jews, and in Abarbanel's Mashmi'a Yeshu'ah the Messiah ben Joseph actually is the Antichrist. So he is not only characterized as the suffering Messiah in contrast to the victorious one, but is ultimately thought of as his antagonist.

Messiah ben Joseph corresponds to Jesus bron in Nazareth, the personal aspect of the Self. Messiah ben David corresponds to Christ born in Bethlehem, the city of David. He is the son of David the ancestral spirit, the transpersonal aspect of the Self. A parallel image is the Dioscuri Twins, Castor the mortal and Pollux the immortal one.

As far as Jesus the physical man, I recommend Spirit of '22's essay concerning Jesus the Rabbi.

And, out of courtesy for the original request made by jonboyw75, I consider myself an Asatru heathen.

Damn, the underlines didn't work... oh well, it was implied.

Jesus was a jew. Therefore muslims would hate him.

Beany, you read my thoughts once again.

Personally, I'd like to add that he was very misunderstood. He seemed to have thought beyond time and space.

what ever floats your boats dudes, I just think Jesus' laws are is just another way to heaven, there is more than one path

Tyrant, have you ever read a book called "The Hiram Key"? Poorly documented, but fascinating stuff. The authors claim Jesus was just one of two messiahs, the "kingly" or Boaz messiah, while his brother James the Just was the "priestly" or Mishpat messiah. They don't say anything about them being twins, though. However, I do recall that some sects hold that Thomas was Jesus' twin brother. Just a thought.

quote:Originally posted by DarkFire47:

Jesus was a jew. Therefore muslims would hate him. Nop! He is one of the saints of Islam, as most Bible characters. The moslims would only hate the Jews who identify with modern-day Israel. Unless Islam really gets dumped into the fundamentalist demon and becomes straightforward antisemitic as a religion.

Note: according to the Bible, any prophet, even supported by miracles and great wonders, calling for one slight change in the order of the Torah, is a false prophet. If anyone believed the Bible is the word of God, they would never believe in any Jesus, or for that

matter, Mohammed. That makes the God of the first of sacred books - a damn liar...

jesus was primarily a man.....he studied with the rest of the jews as a child ...and had a flare for religion.....

during his teen years and his early manhood jesus was exposed to various kinds of religious phillosophy....the vedas and probably buddhism....

he was an excellent teacher who could relay some of the truths he had uncovered thoroughout his life very well to the masses.

even just before his death....jesus was not a fully enlightened human being .....as he asked the lord or maybe in reality he asked his karma to spare him from certain death...he actually cried about this in the garden of gethsemanie....

it was only when he was nailed to the cross that jesus actually achieved enlightenment.

so he was a man.. born of mary and his father was a roman guard.....

the truth is ...what does it matter that the truth has been warped by various editions of the bible and the jews and just about everyone else...

he was a man i search of enlightenment ...and who apparently achieved this on the day of his death....

you see .... an enlightened being understands reality . ...and in understanding reality you would not fear for yourself or for your life....death would be accepted with a smile rather than a cry for help.

Except for the fact that there's no proof for any of that.

I will definitely look into this "Hiram Key" that you speak of. As far as Thomas being Jesus' twin brother, I've never heard of that. Which sect is this?

However, that would prove to be quite an interesting lesson about the effects of what Christianity calls "humanity's inherent sin nature," in reference to not even his mortal twin brother having the faith to assume that his brother, Yahweh incarnate, was able to rise from the dead. Just a thought.

Apparently, some people assumed I meant that other religions and historians see Jesus, as in, Jesus the Son of God. Other religions view him as a mere prophet, or, as has already been suggested, an enlightened man. Romans recorded his historical actions as a heretic and a Palestinian patriot fighting with the Zealots against the power of Rome. They did not accept his claims that he was the son of God - the very claims that crucified him.

Just a random thought: I remember speaking with a Christian youth pastor concerning the claims of Jesus. And he said that historians narrow the nature of Jesus by saying: "He was either a liar, a lunatic, or the son of God. It is our faith as Christians that he was indeed the son of God." Christian philosophy seems to keep getting caught in a vacuum of insistence: I could replace the kernel of their philosophy - God or Jesus - with any other object or entity, animate or otherwise, and use the same logic to deify said entity and demonize those who oppose it, and have its effectiveness remain just as devout and adamant.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

I will definitely look into this "Hiram Key" that you speak of. As far as Thomas being Jesus' twin brother, I've never heard of that. Which sect is this?

That particular claim is, I believe, native to several strains of Gnosticism. You might try looking for the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas, it deals with Thomas and an alleged journey to the Indian subcontinent. Historically indefensible, but still quite fascinating. And I think you'll thoroughly enjoy "The Hiram Key." It's actually the result of research by a couple of freemasons, looking for historical proof of their founder, Hiram Abif.

Jesus is something which Christians talk to in their heads... an imaginary friend, to some extent. No-one in any current generation can possibly know if the stories about the son of god are true, though many people will tell you that they know for a fact that they are true/false.

This little thing is called faith.

I think jesus was the son of god. I'm keeping short and sweet.

Jesus was a Jewish apocalyptic prophet, like John the Baptist and many other Jews of various sects in 1st century Palestine. He also, as Armed & Dangerous pointed out, had quite a few ideological ties to the community at Qumran that produced the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Jesus was almost certainly a Buddhist.His teaching was radically different from the popular beliefs of that era.The parables are similar to the Koansin Buddhism.Also some of his quotes are Buddhist in philosophy:eg

"I and the father are one"

"The kingdom of heaven is within you"

"Forgive your brother seventy times seventy"

"It is easier for a camel to pass through an eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven."(Materialism and spiritualsm do'nt mix.)

One thing you can't argue is it's living. Jesus really existed and it was scientificly prooved (for the most sceptical ones). You can on the other side argue on the fact that he was God's child. But since I am a Christian, I won't post my oppinion as we pretty much all have the same.

quote:Originally posted by LwaysTired:

Who was/is Jesus? Why not try reading the bible sometime. They talk a lot about him in it http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

The Bible is not a reliable source. I hold it to the same standards as any other source of information, and it simply doesn't measure up. There's nothing to support it. It's just a bunch of stories. I do agree that most of them have good morals, however.

---

As for who I think Jesus was... I'm not sure. I don't really have enough evidence on the matter.

He was a man, and nothing more. He may well have been the son of a virgin, but it wasn't immaculate conception. Joseph probably just dry humped Mary and blew his load all over her twat. Not likely to cause pregnancy, but certainly has often enough in our time.

He may have been (and VERY probably was) a very wise, very intelligent man. Most of his teachings make a great deal of sense, even today. Those that don't made a lot of sense for the time.

He also may have been a mentally ill, claiming he was the son of God. Delusional, at any rate, whether it's a delusion born of insanity or he just convinced himself so hard that he believed it.

Or he may just have wanted a way to make people listen.

As for how his body disappeared, there are numerous explanations. Supposedly there were Roman soldiers guarding his corpse. These soldiers could easily have been bribed, as they probably weren't terribly rich, and the only witnesses would be their army buddies who also got bribes. The soldiers may not have done their duty as they claimed. Scavengers may have eaten his body (scavenging dogs were known to eat the feet of the crucified, the feet being all they could reach).

All of this is pure speculation, of course, but so is the idea of him ascending to heaven, and that idea has a lot less basis in reality and established fact than the idea of some perfectly ordinary occurence.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Except for the fact that there's no proof for any of that.

THANK YOU!

*Tips his hat*

My pleasure, good sir.

UrbnTbone spoke thusly:

quote:Note: according to the Bible, any prophet, even supported by miracles and great wonders, calling for one slight change in the order of the Torah, is a false prophet. If anyone believed the Bible is the word of God, they would never believe in any Jesus, or for that

matter, Mohammed. That makes the God of the first of sacred books - a damn liar...

Uhhh? I'm tired, could you clarify that please?

That's true to some sects, but it's irrelevant. We can't verify that Jesus renounced the Torah, and he appears to have been a simply Jewish patriot.

Jesus was a man, like any other. Its as simple as that.

quote:Originally posted by browncloud:

Uhhh? I'm tired, could you clarify that please? Me too... *yawn*...

Well, don't worry about it. Just that if the bible is god's words, then by forbidding false prophets to the Jews, yet sending one (Jesus), god would be a liar. So the (Jesus) bible is a lie. Rather than having God, being one.

Clear? *yawn again*

Yeah, the Hiram key, Roslyn chapel as the grail's resting place etc...

In France we have the abbé Saunière story of Rennes-le-château. Some people claim tat too, same story different place. What is interesting is why humans need to dig the same ground so many times.

On the one hand we pretend being agnostic or atheist, or rational-religious, yet we always look for the grail and stuff, ya know.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Mashmia Yeshu'a Bullshit. That book has nothing to do with Jesus. It describes a few versions of the redemption, stressing that the jewish redemption is in fact universal, and that is why the Jesus swindle came around, so that the big cosmic seed called (jewish) messiah, is held as BS by ignorants who heard the stupid christian version.

Like, if you wish, how can you discredit an idea? Well you find a nuts and get him propagating the idea. Then people say:"ah, yea, that's the nuts' idea, forget it"

Actually, according to the gentlemen behind "Hiram Key," Rosslyn is supposed to be the resting place not of the grail, but of the scrolls buried under the Temple of Herod just before the Jewish Revolt of AD 70. These scrolls supposedly belonged to the Qumranians, and the Qumranians were supposedly synonymous with the Nazarenes. Ergo, these scrolls would be the best chance we have to finally clear up the facts of Jesus' life. The value of such an archeological find could not possibly be overstated.

Edit: It should be noted that this would probably reveal what the facts already seem to indicate - that Jesus was a Jew, a nationalist, and claimed the messiahship in the kingly, Jewish sense. Given the vindication of what many of your people have been saying all along, UrbnTBone, I fail to understand your cavalier attitude.

[This message has been edited by Armed&Angry (edited 08-27-2003).]

jesus was a man, a great man, but just a man and nothing more.

who knows maybe in another 300 years southern baptist black people will be praying and worshipping martin luther king jr as their messiah and direct son of god.

UrbnTbone, I thought originally it meant the Torah was a lie. Thanx.

Jesus Did eliminate some of the more 'pagan type' God worship, cleaned up the image a bit. No more sacrifices.

Why did god like barbeques so much?

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Given the vindication of what many of your people have been saying all along, UrbnTBone, I fail to understand your cavalier attitude. Who said you need to understand everything? *proudly being an asshole*

quote:Originally posted by UrbnTbone:

Who said you need to understand everything? *proudly being an asshole*



Do not tempt my wrath, boy.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Do not tempt my wrath, boy.

you aint got no wrath boy....your just a stuck up little fart...who spurts on and on about the latest topic....spurting other peoples material that you just got off the net....and then you think your clever because someone else wrote the god damn stuff...as if it is irrefutable evidence or something.....you make me laugh....

you have to understand that in order to be taken seriously...you must read loads of information and then form your OWN opinion..

not everything you read in the papers is genuine ........stop being so naive and grow the fuck up ..you little upstart.

you have very little personal constructive opinions on anything....very little intellect.... realsie boy....even a parrot can repeat..

its time you started to think for yourself and got some backbone boy.

maybe experience of life...of which you obviously have very little will give you some real backbone ....who knows

i am your friend..

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Actually, according to the gentlemen behind "Hiram Key," Rosslyn is supposed to be the resting place not of the grail, but of the scrolls buried under the Temple of Herod just before the Jewish Revolt of AD 70. These scrolls supposedly belonged to the Qumranians, and the Qumranians were supposedly synonymous with the Nazarenes. Ergo, these scrolls would be the best chance we have to finally clear up the facts of Jesus' life. The value of such an archeological find could not possibly be overstated.

Edit: It should be noted that this would probably reveal what the facts already seem to indicate - that Jesus was a Jew, a nationalist, and claimed the messiahship in the kingly, Jewish sense. Given the vindication of what many of your people have been saying all along, UrbnTBone, I fail to understand your cavalier attitude.

[This message has been edited by Armed&Angry (edited 08-27-2003).]



YAWN .......shit...i just fell asleep on my keyboard..

Here you go being a whiny bitch again. The reason I sometimes things that other people have said is because those are the facts, dipshit. Originality is hardly as important as accuracy, though I suppose I should know by now that this point is lost on you.

Maybe you could point out virtually anything I've said here that I would have "read in the paper?" Oh, you can't? You were talking out of your ass? Gosh, first time for everything, huh?

Your definition of "think for yourself" is apparently "thinking like eBlip." And yet, once again, you provide no argument other than illusory, factless condemnations. Here's an idea... maybe you could stop with your "original thoughts" (translated as "bullshit you just sorta made up.") and look at, you know, reality.

What's truly amusing about this is that this little tirade of yours has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the topic. But because I utterly destroyed you pathetic little Freud act, you want vengeance; you want to give me my just desserts, as you perceive them. Little do you realize that I've already had my dessert, a hearty helping of Bullshit Buddhist Pie. If you'd like to serve me up another platter, fine, but let's keep this bullshit in B&M.

So, let's recap - you've entered a thread, posted a bunch of ridiculous crap that you think is profound, and have still managed to post nothing even remotely similar to a coherent argument. Once again, I'm gonna have to ask you to...

Shut. The fuck. Up.

Heil Armed&Angry! HAhahaha!

eBlip, what's your ultimately original opinion that only you, with your limited range of sight, thought, language, and existence, have thought of for the past 12,000 years? What's your precious gem of wisdom that befuddles the masses and brings silence to the crowd, drawing attention from the tight-rope walker for whom the crowd came to the carnival? Give us this Overman, that we may see him!

Companions, brother... not corpses.

quote:Originally posted by eBlip:

...your just a stuck up little fart...who spurts on and on about the latest topic....spurting other peoples material that you just got off the net....andthen you think your clever because someone else wrote the god damn stuf...as if it is irrefutable evidence or something.....you make me laugh....

...you have very little personal constructive opinions on anything....very little intellect... realsie boy....even a parrot can repeat..

...its time you started to think for yourself and got some backbone boy.

You having the linguistic acuity and maturity of a five year old girl with Downs syndrome. Know your place!

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Heil Armed&Angry! HAhahaha!

eBlip, what's your ultimately original opinion that only you, with your limited range of sight, thought, language, and existence, have thought of for the past 12,000 years? What's your precious gem of wisdom that befuddles the masses and brings silence to the crowd, drawing attention from the tight-rope walker for whom the crowd came to the carnival? Give us this Overman, that we may see him!

Companions, brother... not corpses.

You having the linguistic acuity and maturity of a five year old girl with Downs syndrome. Know your place!



listen friend ....there is no need to ridicule people with downs syndrome not even to emphasise a point....that is low and weak.

as if it makes your argument any stronger...the way you and i both argue is a reflection of both of our personalities.....you lose im afraid, if you stoop to that low level...thats weak shit from a weak mind....i have nothing further to say to you.

good bye .....and i hope you find peace of mind......shouldnt be that difficult, after all you have but a small mind....tiny in fact.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Here you go being a whiny bitch again. The reason I sometimes things that other people have said is because those are the facts, dipshit. Originality is hardly as important as accuracy, though I suppose I should know by now that this point is lost on you.

Maybe you could point out virtually anything I've said here that I would have "read in the paper?" Oh, you can't? You were talking out of your ass? Gosh, first time for everything, huh?

Your definition of "think for yourself" is apparently "thinking like eBlip." And yet, once again, you provide no argument other than illusory, factless condemnations. Here's an idea... maybe you could stop with your "original thoughts" (translated as "bullshit you just sorta made up.") and look at, you know, reality.

What's truly amusing about this is that this little tirade of yours has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the topic. But because I utterly destroyed you pathetic little Freud act, you want vengeance; you want to give me my just desserts, as you perceive them. Little do you realize that I've already had my dessert, a hearty helping of Bullshit Buddhist Pie. If you'd like to serve me up another platter, fine, but let's keep this bullshit in B&M.

So, let's recap - you've entered a thread, posted a bunch of ridiculous crap that you think is profound, and have still managed to post nothing even remotely similar to a coherent argument. Once again, I'm gonna have to ask you to...

Shut. The fuck. Up.



at last, the parrot has spoken his own words...

a few corrections though ...

1.The reason I sometimes things that other people have said is because

god knows what this means....

2.I would have "read in the paper?"

the parrot has completely missed the point..his intellect was not up to it.

3.dipshit...

now hes speaking from the heart...real big boy insults.

4.Your definition of "think for yourself" is apparently "thinking like eBlip."

parrot...i said to think for yourself, meant gathering loads of data on a subject..then reading between the lies and the lines...for instance...one person may translate different to another..so stop just picking up the first book that you come across and waving it in the air and ranting on about facts...because to me ....all you are holding in your hands is a handful of paper...form your own opinions and throw the books away.

your the type of person who reads freud and then rants and raves about it with the book in your hand ....like it is a defence of some sort...

im the sort of person who reads freud...but then i read adler mill and many more that you havent even heard of....then i throw the books away and then i contemplate on what i feel inside...

i make the arguments utterly personal and reflect upon the way i feel about whatever...then i give an original opinion, not necessarily based on anything i have read....they are not facts to me.....

others have their own opinions....but you dont you just spout on about what you have read ....thats how shallow you really are...but i can see through you....to me you are totally transparent....

so i am glad and inspired by others who have their OWN opinion about certain matters ......even if their OWN opinion is totally the opposite of mine...

these are people that think for themselves...

face facts armed and now very angry ....you just dont measure up.

'invenimus viam aut faciemus'...we can all write stuff that makes others think we are clever...but you cant fool me.

you have written your own stuff above ....and to be truthful ...its pretty lame.

5.because I utterly destroyed you pathetic

i think you meant to say 'your pathetic little freud act.......

i do not act like freud.. personally he didnt impress me one iota.....im far more original than him.

6.ridiculous crap that you think is profound,

thank you for the compliment, but you and i both know i hit some nails on the head now dont we........laughing at you....so as for losing the argument....only me and you know that i won....the rest was your bullshit..and tonight when you are in your bed ALONE of course..remember ...you couldnt pull the wool over eBlips eyes. he knew he was right all along....so now i have just given you a double whooping..ha ha ha.

you asked for it.....and you got it.

like i said ....your transparent ....a transparent parrot.

i am your friend...and i send my love to you and your family.

Goddammit, eBlip, will you grow the fuck up?

I've missed the point? Explain it then. Oh wait, you're full of shit. I keep forgetting.

In every matter I've dealt with intellectually, I've looked at the facts from both sides and come to a conclusion. When I come to the same conclusion as somebody else, it's becuase they've proved their point the best.

Stop hiding behind the facade of a free thinker. There have been literally millions of people in history who have espoused this creed, not to mention thousands of fourteen-year-olds who think they're pretty hot shit. Doesn't this just make you a parrot, eBlip? Tell me one thing you've said that is truly and profoundly original.

And forget about whether what I've said is original or not - how about you prove me wrong. Or try, at least.

As for sleeping alone, Christ, you're grasping for straws here. I've lived here for four days, kid, gimme some time. Perhaps you can overwhelm women with bullshit that sounds brilliant to the uninitiated, but being a steadfast student of empiricism, I have to talk with them for long periods of time and build a relationship and stuff. Jesus.

And just remember, eBlip, I'm only trying to help you become less of an emotionalist, mystical fruit loop and bring you to the light of reason... I am your friend...

[This message has been edited by Armed&Angry (edited 08-28-2003).]

'...it's not jesus, it's just some fella.'

quote:Originally posted by eBlip:



listen friend ....there is no need to ridicule people with downs syndrome not even to emphasise a point....that is low and weak.

as if it makes your argument any stronger...the way you and i both argue is a reflection of both of our personalities.....you lose im afraid, if you stoop to that low level...thats weak shit from a weak mind....i have nothing further to say to you.

good bye .....and i hope you find peace of mind......shouldnt be that difficult, after all you have but a small mind....tiny in fact.

You've neither answered my question nor impressed anyone. What would your ancestors think?

quote:Originally posted by eBlip:



4.Your definition of "think for yourself" is apparently "thinking like eBlip."

parrot...i said to think for yourself, meant gathering loads of data on a subject..then reading between the lies and the lines...for instance...one person may translate different to another..so stop just picking up the first book that you come across and waving it in the air and ranting on about facts...because to me ....all you are holding in your hands is a handful of paper...form your own opinions and throw the books away.

And forget about the fact that you don't know everything about the universe.

quote:your the type of person who reads freud and then rants and raves about it with the book in your hand ....like it is a defence of some sort...

im the sort of person who reads freud...but then i read adler mill and many more that you havent even heard of....then i throw the books away and then i contemplate on what i feel inside...

i make the arguments utterly personal and reflect upon the way i feel about whatever...then i give an original opinion, not necessarily based on anything i have read....they are not facts to me.....

Adler suggested the most important thing to a person is self-image, championing the concept of an "inferiority/superiority complex." And you forgot Skinner, Horney, Jung, Rogers, Chomsky, Zimbardo, Beck, Bandura, Asch, Worf, Kohlberg, Erikson, Piaget, Goleman, Loftus, Ebbinhaus, and many others.

quote:others have their own opinions....but you dont you just spout on about what you have read ....thats how shallow you really are...but i can see through you....to me you are totally transparent....

so i am glad and inspired by others who have their OWN opinion about certain matters ......even if their OWN opinion is totally the opposite of mine...

these are people that think for themselves...

face facts armed and now very angry ....you just dont measure up.

'invenimus viam aut faciemus'...we can all write stuff that makes others think we are clever...but you cant fool me.

you have written your own stuff above ....and to be truthful ...its pretty lame.

You would therefore suggest that someone writing a research paper who believed in what he wrote was therefore banal and insignificant because he cited sources?

quote:5.because I utterly destroyed you pathetic

i think you meant to say 'your pathetic little freud act.......

i do not act like freud.. personally he didnt impress me one iota.....im far more original than him.

Hahahahaha and what have you done, O mystic of ages, prophet amongst men, to pioneer forward into an undiscovered and uncharted science, with no previous sources to defend your claims and no one to defend your cause? What have you done that's so amazingly original that puts you above mortal men?

quote:6.ridiculous crap that you think is profound,

thank you for the compliment, but you and i both know i hit some nails on the head now dont we........laughing at you....so as for losing the argument....only me and you know that i won....the rest was your bullshit..and tonight when you are in your bed ALONE of course..remember ...you couldnt pull the wool over eBlips eyes. he knew he was right all along....so now i have just given you a double whooping..ha ha ha.

you asked for it.....and you got it.

like i said ....your transparent ....a transparent parrot.

i am your friend...and i send my love to you and your family.

You haven't made any significant points, though.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

You've neither answered my question nor impressed anyone. What would your ancestors think?

Speak for yourself Mr.

quote:Originally posted by JayMark:

I won't post my oppinion as we pretty much all have the same. Yes, we know your opinion, but you know, you could try and post it anyway under a nice packaging. Part of the disdain for this or that religion is due to ignorance, or because people heard too many times some standardized version of a creed, which is boring nonsense after you heard the same song many times.

Say, you could explain that Jesus as a concept, is the symbol for the "son of God", the spiritual soul of humans. That his second coming is like that redemption of the soul from this world's troubles and its revelation as an antity in essential glory.

Or whatever. Ah yes, the thread is "who was Jesus", not "what strings can the idea of Jesus vibrate in our soul".

I believe the idea of religion is giving us some status, that of questioning our destiny. The historical value, well, you got to trust it while you're a newbie in that religion, but with maturity you can dispose of it and focus on the essential: what in your soul responds to the call. That's the real show.

Say, for magick as an example, beginners may want to trust in practical formulae, pentacles, whatever. But the real initiate will come to the conclusion that all that lore is none of the essential, which doesn't lie in changing your surroundings, but in changing yourself. So people are dragged by easy catches, and some of them are to recognize the light through the veil of conventions. And even less, will then fully understand the total stature of the light, the veil, and the whole system as coherent both spiritually and materially.

That's who "Jesus was" for me if I'm a christian (well I do respect each religion the exact amount they pay respect to my freedom and personal individual religion).

Or, "I'm Jesus", I am the path and the truth. As any human is. We are all children of God if we decide to take up the glove...

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Actually, according to the gentlemen behind "Hiram Key," Rosslyn is supposed to be the resting place not of the grail, but of the scrolls buried under the Temple of Herod just before the Jewish Revolt of AD 70. These scrolls supposedly belonged to the Qumranians, and the Qumranians were supposedly synonymous with the Nazarenes. Ergo, these scrolls would be the best chance we have to finally clear up the facts of Jesus' life. The value of such an archeological find could not possibly be overstated. Yes, well if, supposedly, the poorly documented work was really done seriously and they did not deduct all the bunch of suppositions just from the odd architecture of the chapel yard and assume it was built in two eras because something was hidden underneath.

I mean, there is an appeal in such mysteries, but hey what sleeve did you pull the dove from? I mean the rabbit, I don't question doves. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Is it them who say that most scottish degrees were lost for the common brothers since the order was taken over by the English after the Scotland/England war and they had to plead allegiance to the king of England, supreme Master of the unified order? That was interesting, although poorly documented too (well one can ask why there are gaps between the degrees, even though there is a numerological answer to that, too.) quote:

Edit: It should be noted that this would probably reveal what the facts already seem to indicate - that Jesus was a Jew, a nationalist, and claimed the messiahship in the kingly, Jewish sense. Given the vindication of what many of your people have been saying all along, UrbnTBone, I fail to understand your cavalier attitude. I don't defend any agenda. I'm not a sionist. To me that some false messiah that the bible itself proves to be a false prophet (to the Jews at least) doesn't imply anything. Especially if it implies that christian fundies will eventually encourage sionism, for the glory of their idol, that couldn't affect me less (well I'm talking straight, sorry for the uncomfort and unpolitical-correctness). BTW to me the concept of Jesus is a fake, but I can conceive that it may help lots of souls. The hecktch, I'm not gonna start to think with side-patch (whatever English calls these sight-limitation tools worn by horses). Just because I think this or that way doesn't make me predictable on anything else.

Cavalier? Yes I'm a knight of the parabolic hypertrophy of the cognition through altered channels of wizardom. That's the name of my common order/disorder (chose appropriate option).

Armed: "void shit you thought as profound". Granted, that Jesus/ Buddah stuff gives me the hickupp-ps...

$5 on Armed&angry. eblurp you ridiculed yourself. He's more mature. Know your place, as the fucking tyrant put it.

My most humble thanks, Urb.

Christ Jesus(pbuh) was the last of the Israelite Prophets(pbuta) and he is the Messiah who will descend before the day of judgement when the antichrist (a one eyed claimant to divinity--Ad Dajjal) will have tricked people into worshipping him. He will descend in Damascus, Syria and pray with Imam Mahdi, pursue and kill the antichrist, destroy and kill the unbelieving armies of Gog and Magog, and bring peace and brotherhood to the world.

Oh. Ok. That cleared things up quite a bit...

I am Jewish and I was taught that Jesus was a good man in the same way Gandhi was a good man. He was a prophet that had a lot of wise things to say and he did really good things so we were taught to respect his teachings.

It was mentioned, at some time in Temple class, that he was son of god. But, that didn't have such relevancy to us - since - as Jews - we're taught that we are all gods children.

I just woke up.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by Wings Of Azrael:

Christ Jesus(pbuh) was the last of the Israelite Prophets(pbuta) and he is the Messiah who will descend before the day of judgement when the antichrist (a one eyed claimant to divinity--Ad Dajjal) will have tricked people into worshipping him. He will descend in Damascus, Syria and pray with Imam Mahdi, pursue and kill the antichrist, destroy and kill the unbelieving armies of Gog and Magog, and bring peace and brotherhood to the world.

One eyed claimant of divinity... archetype of one-eyed god? Wotan?

Interesting.

The antichrist will have curly, wiry hair and be blind in one eye and that is the eye that will bulge outward like a swollen grape. I know not of the things you speak of. Please enlighten me.

I know not of the things you speak of, primarily because they're crazy. Where are you getting all this stuff? St. John of Patmos was hardly an objective source...

I am muslim. The things I speak of are in the Hadith of Holy Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). St. John was indeed saintly, but it is my belief that his book of revelations has been altered at some point over the last 2,000 years.

Muhammed isn't an unassailable source, either.

Neither is your logic or unbelief. But fear not what I or others say, because it isn't me you will have to answer to...so take refuge in that. If unbelievers would spend as much energy actually studying holy scriptures as they do trying to find flaws in them, the world would more than likely be a more pleasent place.

You put stock in blind faith, while ridiculing me for my unhealthy affection for fact? What brave new world, that has such people. As for your precious overlord, I shall laugh long and mightily when your body lies a mouldering in the grave, and your spirit isn't marching onward.

And don't pretend my unbelief is due to simple ignorance of the scriptures. I've been studying both testaments extensively since I was fourteen, and I've supplemented it with the works of such brilliant exegetes as Maimonides and Dr. Gerald Schroeder. It is not insignificant to note that I began my studies as a dedicated Christian and, after years of reading, now consider myself a convinced atheist.

[This message has been edited by Armed&Angry (edited 09-03-2003).]

You have no need to explain anything to me. Allah knows best. Here's something HYPOTHETICAL for you...say there is no God, then what have I lost? Nothing. I wouldn't do anything different. Say there is a God, then what have you lost? Everything, unbelief is the most heinous of sins and from what I hear, hell is hot.

Belief in God without proof, or even a solid line of bullshitting, does cause you to lose something. It's called "intellectual integrity."

quote:Originally posted by Wings Of Azrael:

Say there is a God, then what have you lost? Everything, unbelief is the most heinous of sins and from what I hear, hell is hot.

Standard response: then what if God is actually Set? or a snake-handler? or Cthulhu? then you're just as screwed as the atheist. What makes you think the supreme being is a Christian.

Why hasn't Pascal's Wager died yet? Simple rebuttals are nice, but become tiresome when repeated.

The proof is already there for those of understanding, and those who reflect. God is beyond intellect. He is beyond comprehension. That scares most people...that which one doesn't understand usually ends up causing one endless hostility towards the subject or an attempt to disprove it based on an intellectual scientific theory.

God isn't a christian. That is a blasphemous statement. He is the omni-potent master of all. Christians are followers of Christ(pbuh) and have mistaken the Messiah Prophet(pbuh) for a god or a partner with God. The Prophets(pbuta) were all sinless men who bowed in perfect submission to the Almighty.

quote:Originally posted by Wings Of Azrael:

The Prophets(pbuta) were all sinless men who bowed in perfect submission to the Almighty.

What of Moses?

Was he not a prophet, and did he not grow angry with god and strike the rock twice?

The holy quran states that both Abraham and Moses(pbutb) had an ongoing debates (in some form or another) with God. Moses(pbuh) debated about the constant transgressions of israelites and Abraham(pbuh) over the people of Lot(pbuh). Never is it said that they were angry with God.

I distinctly remember a rabbi I know describing Moses as greatest of the prophets.

quote:Originally posted by Wings Of Azrael:

The proof is already there for those of understanding, and those who reflect. God is beyond intellect. He is beyond comprehension. That scares most people...that which one doesn't understand usually ends up causing one endless hostility towards the subject or an attempt to disprove it based on an intellectual scientific theory.

Okay, I think we're starting to drag the thread off course here, so I'm going to go start a new one and we can discuss this until the end of time if you want. I'll be a gentleman if you will.

To Jews Moses(pbuh) is the greatest of all Prophets. Hence the rabbi's saying. To Christians, it is Christ Jesus(pbuh). And Muslims are supposed to revere all Prophets equally even though God has exalted some of them to higher levels than others.

No way. Moses got plenty pissed. He became so angry when water wouldn't come out of that rock that he hit it twice when God said to hit it once. He was plenty fucking pissed to do that.

So pissed, in fact, that God got pissed at him and banned him from ever reaching the Promised Land.

quote:Originally posted by Wings Of Azrael:

.....Christians are followers of Christ(pbuh) and have mistaken the Messiah Prophet(pbuh) for a god or a partner with God. The Prophets(pbuta) were all sinless men who bowed in perfect submission to the Almighty.Jesus never sinned?Did'nt he assualted and battered the money changers?

I think he just flipped some tables in the temple no assaullt their. This is where he said "give to caesar what belongs to him"

Btw, a little off topic but this year my theology class is that on Hebrew scriptures, Does anyone have nay input on how you think the class will be?

quote:Originally posted by punkrawkerstonershit:

Btw, a little off topic but this year my theology class is that on Hebrew scriptures, Does anyone have nay input on how you think the class will be?

Will you be learning Hebrew, or just reading English translations?

Since you signed up for a theology class, I think you'll probably find it interesting.

Christ(pbuh) was sinless. Moses(pbuh) was sinless. Moses(pbuh) may have been angered or upset, but he was not angry with God. When Moses(pbuh) died, his time was simply up. His 120 years had expired, but he saw the promised land. I am sure God has exalted him in the heavens. If Christ(pbuh) had assaulted anyone in the temple they would have deserved it. Nothing should ever be bought or sold or such a thing in any house of God.

Well I didn't sign up for it, its madatory. Also its english translations. The "corse objectives" is to understand the two pillars of roman catholcism through hebrew study.

quote:Originally posted by punkrawkerstonershit:

Well I didn't sign up for it, its madatory. Also its english translations. The "corse objectives" is to understand the two pillars of roman catholcism through hebrew study.

I'm sorry.

I fail to see how you could connect Catholicism to Hebrew ideals.

Only a Catholic could have a mind twisted enough to connect the two.

Tradtion and prayer, the two pillars. I have no idea it's a course that is mandatory for graduation. Sounds interesting, I'll most likely learn a lot from it.

I've been studying the scriptures for years. My studies have only lead me into further unbelief.

i believe jesus was who he said he was BUT he didn't come here for the reasons christians say he did...

after many centuries of the old god approach OBEY OR BE BLASTED, oh yeah, and love me too, god finally got the message that while you can force obedience (while you're watching) you can't command love, respect, trust, etc...

he finally got it that HE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HUMAN NATURE and that HIS APPROACH WASN'T WORKING...

so he came here, walked a mile in our shoes and his death was the world's biggest and most moving APOLOGY for all the destruction and hurt he'd caused humanity...

finally, he came to SET US FREE of ridiculous concepts like original sin and hell...

i see the bible as the transformation of god, from a very angry supernatural being to a benevolent, loving god who actually wants a relationship with us based on FREEWILL CHOICE...

people only come to christ because of the hell threat...take that away, and you truly have a loving relationship, otherwise, it's duress and coercion...