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quote:Read your history. Virtually everything we hold dear in our culture has its roots in early Christianity.

When Jesus of Nazareth was born, western civilization was ruled by pagans who viewed power and glory as the prime virtues.

I will not deny that most of Western culture has roots in Christianity. What I will deny is that Christianity is the only path to our current society or one like it.

quote:Slaves were horribly abused, and women of every sort were treated little better.

You mean like the slaves and women of Christian men until at least the 18th century?

quote:The Nazarene movement introduced some truly revolutionary ideas that would shape our civilization. Most importantly, they preached that everyone is equal before God. Material wealth was proclaimed to be irrelevant; all individuals, male and female, noble and slave, would be judged by the same laws.

Perhaps in the early days. This was turned on it's head by the rise of The Church, and probably didn't return to it's beginnings until late in the Reformation. Some sects still haven't.

quote:In pagan Rome, women were baby machines.

Not to be misogynistic or anything, but who is to say that our way is any better. As you say, our ideas are influenced (most cases, based entirely on) what came before. To us it is perfectly logical and right that women be free. To the pagens it is perfectly logical and right that women be baby machines. The thing is, because you have been influenced by the philosophy, everything about the philosophy is automatically correct.

quote:Down through the centuries, the chief opponents of war, slavery, and poverty have been Christians and Christian leaders.

So have the chief opponents of dancing, alcohol and people of other religions.

quote:Even the non-Christian thinkers were affected by the Christian thinkers that came before them. Come on, read a book before you say silly things like this.

And early Christian thinkers were inspired by the pagan thinkers that came before them, right? So?

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

You mean like the slaves and women of Christian men until at least the 18th century?



19th Century.

You're still not getting what would seem to be painfully obvious - social change is incremental in nature. Were slaves living the good life up until the 19th century? Of course not. But emancipation never would have come if it hadn't been for the at-the-time-explosive idea that slaves are people, too.

The little crack about Christians being the biggest opponents of dancing, alcohol, and other religions is really just silly. Actually, in all these cases, the chiefest opponent would probably be Islam. The overwhelming majority of Christian sects have nothing against dancing or alcohol, Islam opposes both as a matter of faith. And while the crimes of Christianity against other religions can't be neglected, neither can Muslim ones. Let's be realistic. The Christian crusades captured a tiny chunk of Palestine and held it for barely two centuries. Islam, in its initial expansion, captured two thirds of the world's Christian population and territory at the time, and Muslims remain in possession of these lands to this day. Do you see the Pope bitching about it? I realize you were probably just being flippant, but come on, you can't expect that sort of shit to fly.

Early Christian thinkers were of course influenced by pagan thinkers, but they were influenced considerably more by the teachings of the Nazarene sect and Judaism as a whole. So perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Judaeo-Christian tradition has built western civilization. Either way, you're still wrong.

As for the role of women, it's very hard for a culture to crush the natural human desire to be free of domination. Again, to use the example of Islam, women are expected to be submissive and owe their husband their obedience. I've known several Muslim women over the years, primarily due to my town's large population of Somali refugees. I've never met one who liked this arrangement.

Crusades = revenge agaisnt muslims/mass murder of thousands upon thousands

Muslim expansion = expansion of a more technologically and culturally advanced civilization and they did not slaughter christians they were actually quite nice to the people they conquered, especially saladin.

quote:Originally posted by Todesgehen:

Muslim expansion = expansion of a more technologically and culturally advanced civilization and they did not slaughter christians they were actually quite nice to the people they conquered, especially saladin.

Saladin came along hundreds of years after the initial period of Muslim expansion, so precisely what does he have to do with anything? Don't kid yourself. It isn't "nice" to tromp onto somebody else's territory and force them to convert at swordpoint. And yes, many, many devout Christians were killed because they refused to either convert or pay a special tax.

quote:Originally posted by Todesgehen:

Muslim expansion = expansion of a more technologically and culturally advanced civilization and they did not slaughter christians they were actually quite nice to the people they conquered, especially saladin.



Qurayza.

Let me say that again.

QURAYZA.

800 men beheaded. The women and children sold into slavery. Only one lone man abdicating his faith to save his life.

Why? Because they didn't want to 'submit to Allah.'