u know in God,heaven,hell,ghosts,jesus



personally i think that there is only heaven cos this world is bad enough as it. but there are different types of heaven and whatever is in your mind when you die happens to you.whether that is took be with God or in paradise or whatever. u know what i mean????

Yes, I know what you mean. And, you're right.

If you die, and truly believe you're going to hell, you're going to go to hell. But it's not 'HELL.' It's a whole thing that your mind created. It's not real, but at the same time, it is real.

If you die and are an athiest, I'd be willing to bet that your soul will be dormant for quite some time. Maybe not forever, but for a while.

I'm not sure about agnostics, though. Perhaps they die and just chill. Unsure about either direction, they perhaps have the best idea, and will be open to anything after death.

perhaps you simply

cease to exist.

Like everything else in this world.

quote:Originally posted by AYBABTU:

perhaps you simply

cease to exist.

Like everything else in this world.



Could be.

Of course, if it's true, you'll never know. Why even bother discussing it?

"You" are simply the result of a mind-bogglingly complex set of interactions between neurons. It's a scientific fact that this is what creates your consciousness, your "soul" if you will, the "you" that sits in your head and makes your body do stuff. When the neurons stop firing, you cease to exist.

Unless, of course, your death somehow created an "echo" that caused that same set of interactions to continue operating in a different medium than your neurons (after all, it's the interaction that makes "you", not the cells themselves). Maybe that's what "ghosts" are, some sort of echo of a once-human, operating in some sort of energy or something that we do not yet understand.

There's a scientific explanation for everything, no exceptions. We just haven't found them all yet. Or even an infinitesimal fraction of all of them, for that matter.

quote:Originally posted by zorro420:

It's a scientific fact that this is what creates your consciousness, your "soul" if you will, the "you" that sits in your head and makes your body do stuff.

Do enlighten me and show me the proof. A link from any credible scientific journal publishing this theory will suffice.



[This message has been edited by Kikey_Kikeowitz (edited 08-26-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by AYBABTU:

perhaps you simply

cease to exist.

Like everything else in this world.

Perhaps heaven is 'not existing'. After all sleep is pretty damn good, and you aint exactly aware of it.

Ever wanted to not exist? Acheive enlightenment today and this wonderful deal can be yours.

u have a point zorro420 maybe a echo but theres no harm believeing that there is a heaven. but science CAN not explain everything. BUT LETS NOT FORGOT ALBERT EILSTEIN(spelling) SAID THAT IF WE USED ALL OF OUR BRAIN WE WOULD NOT NEED OUR BODY. SO MAYBE WHEN YOU DIE YOUR brain subcouness spirit what ever does leave your body and goes some where else

quote:

Acheive enlightenment today and this wonderful deal can be yours.



There are no deals up here, it's all pretty straight forward.

Consciousness could be an electromagnetic field...Just thought I'd throw that in.

Also quantum matter can exist in 2 places at the same time, at least. So maybe a barain or consciousness can exist outside the body.

How can you even prove that our consciousness is actually in our body/brain anyway?

...I'm quite sure we can't.

Slightly off topic but this thread was going to that scrap heap anyway.

OMG! Terry Pratchett was right http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

Do enlighten me and show me the proof. A link from any credible scientific journal publishing this theory will suffice.

Kikey, I'm not talking about any specific study.

It's the branch of science called neurology.

Your brain is what thinks. It's also what produces emotions. These facts are not in dispute (except by religion, which is not a valid argument since it's not supported by these zany things called "facts").

You want specific examples to support what I'm saying? OK, here are some:

Brain damage changes who you are. It can change your personality, your intelligence, anything about you, depending on the extent and location of the damage. Almost always takes the form of making you stupider somehow, because it makes the brain function less well.

Drugs are another proof. They work by affecting your brain, by altering the interactions that are how your brain works. Drugs can effect physical sensations, as well as any other aspect of "you". They can change your conscious thought, change your emotions, change things about your mind that you could never fathom before experiencing them (hallucinogens in particular... and FUCK is Salvia ever powerful... it'll make you think you're experiencing entire new realities).

Addiction is also very powerful evidence. I don't know if you've known any addicts, but it's scary what it can do. Hard drugs, like coke, meth, heroin, crack, etc. can change who you are. A friend of mine who we will call S got himself addicted to cocaine, meth, and crack... He was literally a completely different person in the same body. He wasn't just acting different, the drug literally changed who he was. This sweet, caring, fun guy who was on his way to become a nurse, who worked taking care of developmentally disable people and loved going to work every day, ended up violently robbing people, and I didn't even recognize him when talking to him. He was just absolutely a new "person" (more like an animal, really) inhabiting the body.

I've heard of neurology. I'm not a fucking sap. My religious studies aside, I'm also an avid fan of Physics, both Newtonian and Quantum. My father's also taught me quite a bit about how our body fuctions, being a med tech specializing in hemotology(which, somehow, pays only 30,000 a year.

The fact remains that neurologists have not proven or located a specific part of the brain that 'creates' our consciousness.

If they had, there would have been a study published, as that's how scientists work.

So, once again, some proof.

There's not a specific part of the brain that creates consciousness.

And if you had read the rest of my post, you would have the proof you're asking for that consciousness is created solely by the brain. Every shred of evidence shows that.

There is, however, no evidence whatsoever to the contrary.

Tons of evidence for it, and none against... seems like a pretty open and shut case to me.

How can you even prove that our consciousness is actually in our body/brain anyway?

By the fact that consciousness is very obviously tied to the brain... smacking someone in the leg won't produce unconsciousness, but smacking someone in the head will.

No other part of the body affects consciousness when you alter it, but altering the brain produces immediate and direct effects on consciousness.

Saying that we can't show that the brain produces consciousness is like saying you can't show that when you pull the plug on your computer, it turns off.

[This message has been edited by zorro420 (edited 08-27-2003).]

No, you haven't given any proof.

You've cited examples of the brain releasing chemicals that alter your emotions. There's is no disputing that fact. However, emotions are different from consciousness.

You still have refused to offer up any proof that consciousness is created in the brain. Show it, as you stated that it was a 'scientific fact.'

No dodging around. No bullshit. Either come up with a link, or admit that you were talking out of your ass.

What exactly do you think consciousness is? It's fairly well understood what parts of the brain are responsible for the functions it performs. The medulla controls "automatic" motor function, like the heart, the muscles in the intestines, etc. The cerebellum controls conscious motor function (normal movement).

The cerebrum is responsible for higher brain function, basically everything we think of as "mental". It's a tool for processing the environment, and its many different subsections are responsible for different aspects of that goal. There are sections responsible for receiving visual information, and each of the other senses. Mechanisms responsible for emotions have also been identified. The composite of all the functions the cerebrum perfoms are what we think of as consciousness, because it's all that we know and perceive.

What exactly do you want a link to? A map showing which sections of which lobes do what? The gory details of what goes where really aren't related to the discussion at hand.

Kikey.....

I dont have any links, but I agree with shitface. Google Lobotomy.

If you cut your brain, you become different.

If you hit your head, you can loose your memory

Altering the physical medium that is your brain changes your personality, thoughts and conciousness.

quote:Originally posted by zorro420:

What exactly do you want a link to? A map showing which sections of which lobes do what? The gory details of what goes where really aren't related to the discussion at hand.

Yes. That's what I want.

BTW, you've got consciousness all wrong. It's knowledge of our own existence, although all that you've mentioned does play it's own part in forming our personalities.



At the very least, I wanta study detailing what the consciousness is generally defined as, and which parts of the brain are responsible for it.

You expect me to believe you at face value? Fact is, consciousness has not yet been identified, much less empirically proven.

Not yet, at least. There is always the possibility that it might. As of right now, however, it is FAR from 'scientific fact.'

quote:Originally posted by archaic999:

Altering the physical medium that is your brain changes your personality, thoughts and conciousness.

Personality, yes. Memory, yes. Emotions, yes.

But not consciousness.

I am not foolish enough to dispute the fact that the brain is very integral to our physical selves. But what he is passing off as fact, is just not a fact at all.

You cannot change your conciousness... nor can you truly tap into it without some serious practice and possibly divine intervention. Just a statement...

Consciousness is personality, memory, emotions, and reason. What else would it be?

It just seems like some amazing mystical thing because it's all we can perceive. It seems like the end-all be-all everything, because it's everything we can perceive. Just because we perceive it as being something fucking amazing doesn't mean that it can't have fairly mundane origin.

What makes you think that consciousness is anything other than what I'm saying, or originates from anything but the brain that obviously produces it??



Fascistsmasher, you can change consciousness. It usually requires outside influence though, since the brain has no reason to fuck with itself like that. Outside influence would usually be hallucinogens or blunt force trauma to the skull. I've experienced both (and I definitely prefer the former).

Hallucinogens let your consciousness do things you'd never thought possible, while getting hit in the head makes it really hard for your mind to do anything. It's definitely consciousness-altering.

quote:Originally posted by Fascistsmasher:

You cannot change your conciousness... nor can you truly tap into it without some serious practice and possibly divine intervention. Just a statement...

Nope. I do it every day, when I do shamanic work. Mostly I use sonic driving to alter my state of consciousness from beta to theta, but other shamans use drugs, ecstatic dancing, lots of things.

It is also possible to do it with sheer will power/meditation, but I don't usually because it is a lot of work and I am a lazy old fart.

Im not saying you can not change your level of conciousness, i am saying you cannot change your conciousness. Its just not possible to do. By conciousness i am refering to the basics of it, the perception of a personal reality, which is unalterable. Yes your personal reality can be expanded or contracted, but that is mostly by dealing with yourself subconciously which is just basically changing your level of conciousness.

quote:Originally posted by zorro420:

What makes you think that consciousness is anything other than what I'm saying, or originates from anything but the brain that obviously produces it??

Because scientific evidence has suggested that consciousness continues even when there is absolutely no brain activity occurring.

Google "Pam Reynolds NDE." Fascinating story, my father did the blood work-up on her.

Perhaps this consciousness that was lost did not die but is in the afterlife waiting for the rest of the body.

Because it is only a partial 'soul', it's not a complete soul. and the body that lost part of consciousness that is now an imcomplete soul, is not a complete conciousness either.

To simplify, body and soul co-exist incomplete.

quote:Originally posted by AYBABTU:

perhaps you simply

cease to exist.

Like everything else in this world.

What are you taking about "like everything else"? Nothing in this universe "simply ceases to exist". Energy is NEVER lost it is only transfered. Didn't you learn that in high school?

the only questio nis weather or not your "soul" is a seperate energy that exist inside your mind, when the mind dies, doesn't energy we call "soul" simply transfer. If you look at it scientifically, nothing is my "lost".

*cough*uhum (http://www.surrey.ac.uk/qe/pdfs/mcfadden_JCS2002b.pdf)*cough*



...Just felt that I should throw that in.



[This message has been edited by XliMun(Frontalobe)~ (edited 08-28-2003).]

Hum di le dum!

All of you all need to go eat large amounts of amanita muscaria var formosa or muscaria mushrooms and drink some Yage. Then you'll see that consiousness is seperate from body. Basic shaman knowledge.

First of all, I want to point out that debating on such profound and mysterious subjects like this is probably the best thing we can do to enhance ourselves psychically. Now, let's brainstorm.

Taking a grand interest in psychology, and planning on becoming a doctor in psychology, I find the brain to become a most complex, though all the more intriguing, instrument of life. We have just about turned it inside out and allowed it to understand what, who, and why we are the way we are. Therefore, I am inclined to say that the brain is the center of our consciousness.

However, studying Jungian psychology, I am also inclined to take interest towards spirituality, and the global connection between archetypal mythological images. It's a rather eye-opening experience to read about completely separate and isolated tribes develop myths and legends with synonymous principles and coinciding images. Examples of these are: the eternal fates of Prometheus and Loki until the end of the world, their ever-regenerating flesh forever wounded, the former by vultures eating his liver, the latter by splattering venom on his face; the weaknesses of invincible men/gods Achilles and Baldr, both brought to demise by the vulnerability of their heels.

The connection? When the brain functions, it sends neurons to certain parts of the brain to make it activate. This much we can only guess at; we have yet to identify how the electrical signal is actually translated by the brain to an impulse or an image. However, we also know it is not exactly the impulses themselves, but the neural network it forms. The combinations of impulses form a web where complex parallel processing can be performed.

So as we, as individuals on this planet, form a psychic web or network to form culture. Cultures interconnect to form a global unit. These networks, in my personal opinion, form consciousness...

An interesting point, as I continue on that... in MIT, there is a special division dedicated to research on Artificial Intelligence. A project was done that astounded scientists worldwide. A small mechanical spider-oid was created with the capacity to walk in certain directions without assistance. A roll of duct tape was placed around the spider-oid. It tapped forward, felt resistance, and recoiled, and attempted to walk forward at about 3 degrees to the left. It continued to feel resistance and attempt another direction until it went in a complete circle.

After the circle was completed, it lifted its legs up and over the barrier, until it had climbed over the roll of tape. A few seconds after it had walked away from the tape, the roll was replaced over the spider.

After feeling resistance the first time it attempted to walk forward, it lifted its legs up and climbed over the barrier.

The theory posed? Electrical impulses that resided within the mechanical processor reactivated upon encountering another similar obstacle. In other words, electrical networks apparently form memory.

Can it therefore be postulated that, with enough research on parallel processing and electrical networks, we can artificially create consciousness?

However, the other point to consider is that, if we do, it will be an imprint of human consciousness upon machines. It will therefore not be authentic and natural consciousness, and therefore not truly consciousness. We don't have enough evidence to suggest that it is possible to digitize, program, or measure such abstract things as emotion or brainstorming. Therefore, a machine cannot completely be conscious in the way humanity is.

Can consciousness be mapped out?

quote:Originally posted by Nikali4389:

Hum di le dum!

All of you all need to go eat large amounts of amanita muscaria var formosa or muscaria mushrooms and drink some Yage. Then you'll see that consiousness is seperate from body. Basic shaman knowledge.

By the way, aren't amanita mushrooms the fungi Viking berserkers ate to make them go apeshit?

Correct they are. If you eat enough of them they can cause Out of body experiences,massive changes in perception,crazy undescribable shit. One can only know after they take enough. Yage isnt the same but one can't explain how they effect you. You simply have to try it to understand.