I hear alot of complaints of this and that and contradictions about the Christian religion, the bible and what not. I want to learn first hand about the religion from ppl who practice the faith. I want to learn(without sitting through boring ass church)sorry but it's true http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif).

Could some1 of Christian faith teach me a little about the religion. I was told by my teacher(a Christian) that they (you) don't belive in superstitious things:ghost, witches, magic etc.

For future reference I'll be asking a lot of questions about the religion, plz don't feel spiteful of some of my comments & questions i'm just tryin to learn.

I don't mean any disrespect to your faith, so plz respond to my comments and questions.

The Christian faith takes no official stance on the supernatural.

The bible, however, says you shouldn't be a witch.

It really is a bad idea, if you think about. Too many chances to accidentally absorb some seriously bad ju ju.

Acctually if i am not mistaken the porhibition on being a witch is purely KJV and the actual "Bible" states a prohibition against being a "poisoner".

Humans, according to Christianity, are born into sin because of the temptations of Adam and Eve. The two fell from grace after defying God's word by eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, thus persuaded by the tongue of a serpent, who thus spake: Eritis sicut Deus, scientes bonum et mallum. You shall be as God, knowing good and evil. This direct disobedience led God to curse the bloodline of Adam and Eve to mortality and, therefore, sin.

According to Christianity, God became incarnate through the offspring of an undefiled virgin named Mary. The man thus born was named Jesus Christ, arriving as prophesized to evangelize the straying lands of Palestine. Jesus taught that, despite the pleasures of material possesions and mortal goals, men were still kept in shadow by turning from God towards other things, like empires and riches and glory amongst men. He taught, however, that mankind could still be saved. He was also said to have performed miracles, such as healing the blind, the corrupted, the defiled, and even the dead. His reputation of teaching against material kingdoms earned him the special hatred of Rome. He was captured, branded a heretic (for claiming to be God incarnate), and, as was the law according to the time, sentenced to crucifixion upon Mt. Golgotha.

Christians teach that, after his seven-hour long crucifixion, Jesus was entombed as was the custom, but arose from the dead upon the third day of his death (thus, Easter). His resurrection, he claimed, was meant to give the message that, because God incarnate died upon an executioners cross for being God, and attempted to give salvation to a lost people, the sins of man were redeemed and forgiven by his spilt blood. Therefore, entrusting Christ into one's heart will allow them a place in God's kingdom of Heaven - eternal paradise.

I hope this was sufficient. While I do not consider myself a Christian, I know the workings of the religion. Other principles or mechanics come into play here or there, but that's the main piece.

Oops, forgot an important point. Christians believe that their God is the One True God, and His Word is unquestionable and absolute. Therefore, the myths and superstitions of other un-Christian, and therefore deemed "barbaric", tribes, cults, and faiths, are seen as enemies to man and his relationship with God. Indulging in such things is, as they see, poison to the soul and yet another weight that separates mankind from salvation.

That's how they feel about ghosts and witches. The Christian insult "heathen" actually denotes a pre-Christian religion.

quote:Originally posted by Fascistsmasher:

Acctually if i am not mistaken the porhibition on being a witch is purely KJV and the actual "Bible" states a prohibition against being a "poisoner".



I dunno, I'm going by my copy of Leveticus.

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

I hear alot of complaints of this and that and contradictions about the Christian religion, the bible and what not. I want to learn first hand about the religion from ppl who practice the faith. I want to learn(without sitting through boring ass church)sorry but it's true http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif).

Could some1 of Christian faith teach me a little about the religion. I was told by my teacher(a Christian) that they (you) don't belive in superstitious things:ghost, witches, magic etc.

For future reference I'll be asking a lot of questions about the religion, plz don't feel spiteful of some of my comments & questions i'm just tryin to learn.

I don't mean any disrespect to your faith, so plz respond to my comments and questions.

Nice idea but what you are trying to do, is equal to trying to learn a little about physics. Its a very broad subject with diverse ideas of what even being a Christian means, let alone what "they" believe.Try to narrow the approach and set more specific parameters.

quote:Originally posted by jester461:

Nice idea but what you are trying to do, is equal to trying to learn a little about physics. Its a very broad subject with diverse ideas of what even being a Christian means, let alone what "they" believe.Try to narrow the approach and set more specific parameters.



This I already know that's why I asked the question that way. I want to see how everyones belief in the same religion differ.

Depends on what type of Christian you are talking about.

Think of it like a tree starting with its root. Middle class Jewish rabbi called Jesus (if he isn’t a myth) interprets Judaism in a new way. Jesus dies, his brother James takes over and keeps it part mainstream Judaism part Jesus’ teachings. Jesus’ mate Paul hijacks the group and makes the Catholic Church.

Catholic church beats down all alternative Christian groups such as the Arians and becomes the dominant Christian group.

From this point on the Catholic Church splintered gradually into the many Christian groups to date.

Christians in all forms essentially accept that Jesus was the Son of God. They all differ in who should tell Jesus' message, who is Jesus' representative on Earth, what rituals should be done to honour Jesus and most importantly who gets their donations.

Firstly, all religions have contradictions inside them -- I beleive in a higher force, but I don't beleive that any Holy Book is the direct word of God. The Bible, Koran, etc are all Mannish in my opinion.

Secondly, Tyrant's explanation is pretty much bang-on. There's also an evil, Lucifer (the Devil), the basis of which appears to come from Pan in appearance (hence 'Panic' being a bad thing -- Pan looked like the Christian Devil). The idea behind Lucifer is that he was cheif of the original angels, but desired to overtake God -- he promised to give Christ Earth or something if he'd worship him, or so I've heard. Anywho, when Lucifer and his army PO'd God, he was flung into the (I will now use bold just for the fun of it) Lake of Sulphur and Brimstone in the Land of Fire; hell. Satan is as close to God (as close to Perfection) as one can get, but he's evil. Some beleive that for a time Satan will overtake man (hence 'The Beast', 'The False Prophet', etc) and then Christ shall rise again and save us all. Here we get disputes: the Jehovahs witnesses say that only they get saved, some other sects say only they get saved, while others still claim it's only X number of worthies, while others still claim everyone gets saved. 666 being bad comes from the bible, because of this:

King James Bible, Revelations 13:15-18

15: And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16: And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18: Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

and then in the Standard Revised Edition:

15: and it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast so that the image of the beast should even speak, and to cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.

16: Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead,

17: so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.

18: This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six.

(I myself prefer the King James -- I like middle English)

I agree -- church can be boring. I don't go anymore. The Bible, however, can be very interesting.



Disclaimer: I know the fundamentals, but specifics are largely denomination-specific, so some of this stuff may not be right to others.

[This message has been edited by kafka (edited 08-31-2003).]

KJV might be fine for some people. But remember when youre reading it that it has been directly edited by a king.

Wow thanx Kafka, I think you and tyrant have been the most ensightful ppl I've gotten a response from.

BTW I don'tbelieve in God but I want to and this is what makes me belive. I mean sometimes I think God and some pagan gods were(are)real. Look at the resemblance of te greek god Pan, and Satan. Both Satyrs(<<I think this word is where Christians got Satan).

And it seems like gods can't exist without the faith of ppl. So in order for them to have the power to be, they need us. That is (I think) why God said Idol No Other "God Before Me" (or somthing like that).

Thanx everyone fo the responses.

Christians got Satan, from the hebrew satan, which means 'adversary,' or 'enemy.'

Okay, a man named Yahoshua ben Joseph was born in Nazareth at about the turn of the millenium. His parentage is unclear, though it is most likely that Joseph was, in fact, the father. This is because the messiah - i.e. the rightful king of Israel, akin to the French term "dauphin" - must be fromm the House of David. Mary was apparently a Levite; Joseph, however, was descended of David, via the tribe of Judah. Ergo, in a bit of delightful irony, Jesus couldn't technically be the messiah if his father was God. Think about that for a minute. It'll make you chuckle.

As he grew older, the young Jesus showed a precocious grasp of the Torah, the Jewish Book of Law. At some point he joined a puritanical religious sect located at Qumran on the Dead Sea, known as the Nazarenes. He spent three years at the Qumran settlement - known to urban folks of the day as "the Wilderness." After three years at Qumran, Jesus had ascended to the highest level of initiation and was one hell of a pious Jew. Given his lineage and his general holiness, he began to believe that he was in fact the messiah.

It is often said that the messiah would have to be a military leader; this is incorrect. Technically, according to the books of Prophecy, all the messiah need do is stand at the summit of the Mount of Olives at the right moment, and God Himself would destroy the Romans - and military empires in general - with a vast display of power. Henceforth, every nation of the world would live in peace with each other, and Israel would lead them as the "priestly nation" in the global worship of God.

But anyway, back to the Jesus story. Believing himself to be the messiah, the young rabbi set out to stake his claim in the public eye. He engaged in several acts that we would today call publicity stunts - a sermon on the mount, a virtual attack on a group of moneychangers outside the temple - and his followers slowly grew. However, these stunts also drew the watchful eye of the Roman overlords.

The Romans, knowing that this man may well cause them problems, decided to act decisively. Jesus was arrested, judged guilty of insurrection, and put to death via the cross.

The Nazarenes, having lost their leader, were in an understandable state of despair. However, their movement would go on; it had existed before Jesus, and had no choice but to exist afterward. And of course, there were those who believed that Jesus was the true messiah, and that YHWH would return him to life when the time was right. The sect continued under the interim leadership of Jesus' brother, James the Just.

At this point intervened a youth of the city of Tarsus in Asia Minor. The young man, Saul, had converted to Judaism and come to Jerusalem to study under the great Pharisee, Gamaliel. Unfortunately, Saul had flunked out of his studies, and instead took a position as an enforcer for the Sadducees, the ultra-conservative sect of Jews that sided with the Roman occupation and made every attempt to stamp out heresy. On one somewhat extra-legal mission to Damascus, where a sect of Nazarenes were operating, Saul experienced what he believed to be a religious vision. He saw the fallen messiah, Jesus. The apparition explained to Saul that it had meant to die, that he was not a simple tribal king, but rather that his death had atoned for the sins of mankind. Saul, who changed his name to Paul, was filled with religious fervor, and resolved to spread this new faith to the Gentiles.

The Nazarenes disagreed forcefully with Paul's interpretation of events, and Paul was nearly killed upon his return to Jerusalem by an angry mob. In the end, though, the Nazarene faith fell by the wayside. A simple tribal liberation movement had limited appeal; but the promise of salvation appealed equally to the Gentiles. Paul spread his version of "Christianity" far and wide.

By the time of Constantine the Great, the Roman Empire was in a state of slow decay, and various factions were fighting for dominance. Many sects, including Christianity and the similar Cult of Mithra, were struggling for the souls of the populace. Constantine, having just defeated his political opponents and seized the throne, executed a brilliant ploy to reunify the Empire. While privately remaining the high priest of the Sol Invictus, he publicly proclaimed the faith of Christ. He convened the Council of Nicaea to resolve the particulars of the Christian creed, and declared it the religion of the Empire. This reunified the Empire (for a short while).

Since then we've known the Christianity of Paul and Constantine. This is what my research shows; if somebody else has heard something else, do share.

First of all, you're welcome. =)

Second of all, I'm curious as to what influences your decision to become more religious and believe in "God."

Thirdly, about what you said concerning the existence of gods...

quote:Varg Vikernes, "What is Asatru? pt. I":

The gods represent different aspects of us; the Aesir and Aesiress, Vanirs and Disers are all different sides of our consciousness; Jotuns and Dwarfs are different sides of our subconscious. Helheim and Utgard are our subconscious, while Asgard and Midgard are our conscious. When Balder - as a metaphor of the meaning of life - gets murdered he ends up in Helheim. Pretty simple this means that we have "forgot" the meaning of life, the meaning of life has been repressed by a judeo/christian psychosis.

In the myths the trolls can't stand sunlight, this is because a thought (a troll) ...that comes from the subconscious, up in the daylight, in mind; no longer is a subconscious thought (a troll).

While Loki is logic Thor is fidelity, Tyr is the courage, Frigg is love, Heimdall is conscience, Forsete is righteousness, Nanna is the vicinity, Siv is kinship (Siv is married to Thor, notice this!! Fidelity to the kinship!!), Frej and Freja is male/female lust and so on.

More about the existence of gods as metaphorical psychic experiences is discussed by analytical psychologist Carl Gustav Jung. I'd definitely recommend checking him out.

Also, for fun and inspiration, I highly recommend the story of Faust by Goethe. It's the old story about the man who sells his soul to the devil in exchange for mortal power. He learns the true meaning of life in the end of his struggles. A fascinating read!

A&A, as far as I know, that's just about everything... I had never known the historical pre-tense of the Council of Nicea. Does anyone have any of the books from volume of The Ante-Nicene Fathers? I was considering buying them, despite the rather steep cost. Any suggestions?

can some1 tell me where in the bible God prohbits homosexuality? If this is true, that it is sin, then why can animals who ave no ability to make choices like man, be gay?

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

can some1 tell me where in the bible God prohbits homosexuality? If this is true, that it is sin, then why can animals who ave no ability to make choices like man, be gay?

Leveticus 18:22 ; "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Some rules are just meant to be broken by some people, though. Doesn't mean they'll go to hell(boogy-boogy-boo).

Ironically though lesbianism isnt considered immoral by the Torah or "Old Testament" it is even said that in some versions of the Talmud it expressly states the Lesbianism is fine however Male Homosexuality is wrong (although these versions are mostly and widely discredited.).

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

can some1 tell me where in the bible God prohbits homosexuality? If this is true, that it is sin, then why can animals who ave no ability to make choices like man, be gay?

As I understand it, the Noahide and Mosaic Laws apply only to those possessed of a neshama, a human soul. The idea seems to be that, as the Elect of creation, God expects a little more from people.

I can't recall the exact book, but the Bible also holds a story in which one man's sons were being chased by men who wanted to "defile" them. Once the sons were safely inside, the men called, "Bring out your sons, that we may defile them," and the man said, "Instead, I will give you my daughters, that you may defile them." The story can have one of two morals: one in which the male offspring is to be protected at all costs, even at the expense of the female offspring (which, considering the nature and parallel practices of Jewry, wouldn't be too outrageous); or, the man would rather sexual sin be performed between opposite genders than same genders so much that he would offer his daughters instead of his sons to have sex with them.

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

can some1 tell me where in the bible God prohbits homosexuality? If this is true, that it is sin, then why can animals who ave no ability to make choices like man, be gay?

As far as I know, animal homosexuality only occurs when they're in captivity. According to Desmond Morris, it is no different for humans.

Acctually tyrant, youre wrong. The story was about hospitality surprisingly. A quick FYI woman are acctually treated very well in Judaism. In fact if it weren't for the practices and teachings of Judaism woman would still be second class citizens(many of the first feminists were Jewish woman that were used to being treated well and then realized how bad Christian society treated woman at the time). So yea, get your facts straight.

quote:Originally posted by Fascistsmasher:

Acctually tyrant, youre wrong. The story was about hospitality surprisingly. A quick FYI woman are acctually treated very well in Judaism. In fact if it weren't for the practices and teachings of Judaism woman would still be second class citizens(many of the first feminists were Jewish woman that were used to being treated well and then realized how bad Christian society treated woman at the time). So yea, get your facts straight.

They're treated VERY well.

Hell, a Jewish woman has legitimate grounds for divorce if her husband doesn't keep her sexually satisfied.



[This message has been edited by Kikey_Kikeowitz (edited 09-01-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

I can't recall the exact book, but the Bible also holds a story in which one man's sons were being chased by men who wanted to "defile" them. Once the sons were safely inside, the men called, "Bring out your sons, that we may defile them," and the man said, "Instead, I will give you my daughters, that you may defile them." The story can have one of two morals: one in which the male offspring is to be protected at all costs, even at the expense of the female offspring (which, considering the nature and parallel practices of Jewry, wouldn't be too outrageous); or, the man would rather sexual sin be performed between opposite genders than same genders so much that he would offer his daughters instead of his sons to have sex with them.

You speak of the Book of Genesis' story of Sodom and Gommorah. I've never heard the term "defile" used in this context, but I suppose it depends on the translation. Anyhoo, God sends two angels to see if Sodom and Gommorah are really that wicked. The angels shack up with Lot, the one moral man in town. However, the rest of the town soon shows up and demands to "know" (i.e. fuck) the mysterious strangers. Lot knows that this will certainly bring down the wrath of the lord on them, so he offers his daughters in their stead.

This is where I'm a bit unclear. I was under the belief that a father in those days remained the one who "gave away" his daughters. If this were true, it could be argued that this wouldn't be rape, under the laws of the day. Correct me if my initial assumption is wrong.

Anyway, the mob turns him down and demands the angels. They then anally rape them, an act which would obviously call down the wrath of the Lord. So, later that night, Lot and his family hoof it while God pours down the fire and the brimstone and the hey-hey-it-hurts on the wicked cities. Then lots of icky stuff happens, but that's irrelevant now.

In any case, it seems to me that the sin here is rape, not homosexuality. Some would say that the mob turned down women for men; it could equally be argued that angels would be without gender, and some accomplished scholars would agree with me on that one. I look at it as the mob turning down semi-consensual sex in favor of nonconsensual sex. That's the sin, in my eyes. Of course, all competing opinions are welcome.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

As far as I know, animal homosexuality only occurs when they're in captivity. According to Desmond Morris, it is no different for humans.



That Desmund dude is false. Last year for biology, we had to pick animals from a list and tell as much as we could about them(ya know research them). Well I didn't want to do much so I picked cats and there are over ten cats that live in an opening in my from yard(along the hedges in a little vent thing). Anywho I've noticed that out of the ten their are the males. The blk cat and the White fight because the blk one is bored with the female cats so he constantly mounts and tries to... well you know the wht cat. But the third cat the biggest cat likes only the males so he killed can mounted the blk cat.

None of these cats live in captivity, and yet there was a straight a bi and a gay cat.

I also know of gay horses, horses atracted only to ppl, gay dogs, and gay apes (the apes i only seen on t.v.).

Not captivity as in cages, but captivity as in separation from natural habitat. Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless your front yard is the whole of Africa, they weren't performing naturally.

I haven't read The Human Zoo in a long time, so I forget the name he attributed to this, but the principle is basically finding the next closest thing to hetero-erotic consummation - homoerotic consummation - and reaching sexual gratification that way.

Also, captive animals deprived of natural sexual mating rituals and opportunities are the only animals in the world who masturbate...

I'd highly recommend Desmond Morris' The Human Zoo. It's full of interesting cultural anthropological analyses of contemporary society. Julius Evola writes of a similar calibur, especially in Revolt Against The Modern World.

quote:From http://www.truluck.com/html/women_disciples.html:

The Bible has been used for years to oppress and limit women... Women in the synagogues were neither seen nor heard. They were required to sit behind a screen when the law was read for fear that angels, thought to be present at any reading of the law, might be seduced. Rabbinical traditions about Genesis 6:1-8 blamed the union between "the daughters of men" and "the sons of God" (angels) and the Great Flood on the seductive powers of women, which is a constant theme in the Old Testament... This is why Paul said in I Corinthians 11:10 that women should cover their heads "because of the angels."

Religious rules in the time of Jesus forbid women to read the law or speak in the synagogues. No woman could be a rabbi or the student of a rabbi. Women could not be Priests, Pharisees, Scribes, Sadducees or Levites. Women could not go to the synagogue during their menstrual flow. When a woman had a baby, she was "unclean" and could not go to the synagogue for a month. If the baby was a girl, the woman was "unclean" for two months!

A rabbi would not speak to any woman in public, not even to his own mother. Some Pharisees would not even look at a woman in public; so they shut their eyes whenver a woman came into view! A woman was the property of her husband. Adultery was against her husband or father, not against the woman...

Devout men prayed three times a day to thank God that they had not been born slaves, Gentiles, or women! Since a woman could not be circumcised with "the sign of the covenant," she was included only by her relationship to her husband, father or brother.

From http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible7.htm:

"The social and legal position of an Israelite wife was inferior to the position a wife occupied in the great countries round about... all the texts show that Israelites wanted mainly sons to perpetuate the family line and fortune, and to preserve the ancestral inheritance... A husband could divorce his wife; women on the other hand could not ask for divorce... the wife called her husband Ba'al or master; she also called him adon or lord; she addressed him, in fact, as a slave addressed his master or subject, his king. The Decalogue includes a man's wife among his possessions... all her life she remains a minor. The wife does not inherit from her husband, nor daughters from their father, except when there is no male heir. A vow made by a girl or married woman needs, to be valid, the consent of the father or husband and if this consent is withheld, the vow is null and voi. A man had a right to sell his daughter. Women were excluded from the succession."

-Roland de Vaux, archaeologist and priest.

Also from http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible7.htm:

And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Leviticus 21:9

When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.

Deuteronomy 25:11-12

Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean... But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.

Leviticus 12:2, 5

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God... For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

I Corinthians 11:3, 8-9

This is the verse I was apparently talking about:

Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.

Judges 19: 24-25

Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I Timothy 2:11-14

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subjected unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

Ephesians 5:22-24

Give me any plague, but the plague of the heart: and any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman.

Ecclesiastes. 25:13

Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die.

Ecclesiastes. 25:22

For from garments cometh a moth, and from women wickedness. Better is the churlishness of a man than a courteous woman, a woman, I say, which bringeth shame and reproach.

Ecclesiastes. 42:13-14

From the Talmud:

Yebhamoth 11b: Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age.

Aboda Sarah 37a: A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated.

Gad. Shas. 2:2: A Jew may violate but not marry a non-Jewish girl.



Straight enough?

[This message has been edited by Tyrant (edited 09-02-2003).]

Some of those quotes are not entirely accurate.

Leveticus 21:9 : If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire

Harsh, indeed. Very harsh to me, but who likes whores?

I wouldn't be in favor of killing whores, but it should be noted that there were VERY few priests compared to the whole of the people.

As for the women being seperated in the synagogue, they had a very good reason, if you've read the Book of Enoch. Now, it sounds rediculous to us nowadays, but it made perfect sense back then, and was for the good of the people. Sure, it's bullshit, and reform and conservative synagogues now allow women to worship with the men, but it made sense back then.

More interesting such and such:

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "If two men are fighting, and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and siezes him by the genitals, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."

This is a seriously odd rule. I don't quite get it myself.

But who wants to have their wife grab their nuts while they're fighting? Doesn't sound like a good thing to me.

A note about the 'uncleanness:' There was a very good reason for women who are menstruating to be seperated from the general population. Disease was easily spread back in those days. Practically all of the laws of Leveticus are set up to stop disease from spreading through the people of Israel(hence the outlaw on pork, shellfish, etc.)

I'd assume that, at some point or another, a woman who'd just given birth have another person a cold, which resulted in this rule.

'Unclean' is not permanent. It's temporary, and the process to become clean is actually a very good one.

I'd also be willing to wager that the reason for a woman being unclean less if she bears as son is because of the bris. It's gotta be done on the eighth day, and that can't happen if the mother's unclean for two weeks.

Just a theory of my own on that one.

As for the Corinthians quote, well that's just pure Christian bullshit. I can't defend it, it makes no sense. It should be noted that your quote leaves out a large part of that verse.

As for the passage from Judges: Read the entire story. That quote is so extracted and removed from the real story that it changes it entirely. It's still a horrible story, but you really should read the entire chapter.

I cannot comment on any New Testament passages, as I discount them as bullshit automatically.

As for the Talmud, I've commented upon the Talmud numerous times. The passages you quote are not law, and are merely the opinions of a few fucked up men.

Do you actually own a Bible or Torah and Talmud?

Or do you just quote websites?

Heres a nugget of Irony:

A man named Kikey_Kikeowitz is explaining Christianity. LOL

quote:Originally posted by RandomHero:

Heres a nugget of Irony:

A man named Kikey_Kikeowitz is explaining Christianity. LOL

Indeed.

I can wax philosophical about Islam, too.

Amatuer. My name is "Armed&Angry," and you should see me talk about attaining peace. Your head will literally collapse from the contradiction.

Ok another question for you God-fearing ppl.

Could someone tell me where in the bible Satan is first introduced?

Last Night I read from he begining of the bible to the end of Levithicus-and all of Job. Job was the only part I could find Satan in. So I read the story Job and I was astounded at the stupidity, ignorance,childishness of God.

Ppl don't be angry at me for that comment, I mean just read Job.I did 4x lastnight. Satan (In my opinion) is far smarter than God. He went to God and made a Win-Win situation for himself. And God let it happen to prove a point to SATAN!!!!

Oh and another question, is Satan the son of God?



[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 09-02-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Oh and another question, is Satan the son of God?



Depends what is meant by 'son'. I think It's a metaphor for something, but what? Some say it means being the 'soul' of God, in which case we all are.

Anyway I woulnd't believe what the bible has to say about satan. Satan was probably just a normal human being who was evil. Time probably turned him into a big ferocious beast using chinese whispers or something.

Lucifer aka Satan is a creation of god.

He/She/It was designed to be the most perfect creation god had made and was No.2 in the grand scheme of things (this was before Jesus existed / if he did at all).

However Lucifer after a period of time tried to replace God. After a war, which God won, Lucifer was cast out of heaven. Lucifer is still a minion of God but no longer no.2 because theology added, Jesus, the Holy Ghost etc. Lucifer's power still comes from God and performs evil acts on Gods behalf.

quote:Originally posted by Faithless:

Lucifer aka Satan is a creation of god.

He/She/It was designed to be the most perfect creation god had made and was No.2 in the grand scheme of things (this was before Jesus existed / if he did at all).

However Lucifer after a period of time tried to replace God. After a war, which God won, Lucifer was cast out of heaven. Lucifer is still a minion of God but no longer no.2 because theology added, Jesus, the Holy Ghost etc. Lucifer's power still comes from God and performs evil acts on Gods behalf.

It should be noted that this is nowhere in any bible that I've ever read.

Or in diametric opposition to His Holy Plan. Depends on who you ask. Of course, the more confrontational sects can never explain why God doesn't just step on the fucker or something. I mean, he's God. How could he have an out-and-out enemy?

Allah could easily destroy Shaitan if He so pleased. Shaitan is often referred to as a fallen angel in Christian scriptures and some Muslims believe that as well but the majority agree that he is a jinn. Shaitan told Allah that if he granted him respite until the day of judgement, that he (Shaitan) would show Allah how many of his creatures were unfaithful. Hence the reason that Allah lets this go on. Testing his creation to see the faithful and steadfast.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

I mean, he's God. How could he have an out-and-out enemy?



A good story always requires an antagonist.

Kikey, I realise that the bible can support any statement with selective bible passages. What I wrote was what I was taught. The passages below are from the New Jerusalem bible.

Job 1: 6

"One day the Sons of God came to attend on Yaweh and among them was Satan"

Ezekial 28: 1 - 19

The notes at the bottom of the bible say "Christian tradition has often applied this text in an 'accommodated' sense to the fall of Lucifer"

Revelations 12: 7 – 9

“And now war broke out in the heavens, when Michael with his angels attacked the dragon. The dragon fought back with his angels, but they were defeated and driven out of heaven. The great dragon, the primeval serpent, known as the devil or Satan, who had deceived all the world, was hurled down to the earth and his angels were hurled down with him.”

Book of Job for Satan doing necessary evil for God.

quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:



A good story always requires an antagonist.

Part of the reason I believe the bible to be that and nothing more.

Well, I'd just like to add this Metalligod. That bit about the gods needing people to beleive in them is just a bunch of romantic bullshit. A God doesn't need you to believe in him to be real any more than your kitchen table does. Or hey---try believing that I don't exist. I promise you, you'll just be wasting your time. I'll still be out there somewhere pickin' my toes and eating cheese doodles.

The only reason to believe anything, including a religion, is because you are convinced it is TRUE. Otherwise, you're just engaging in a social passtime.

For example. I am definitely a Christian. And I am utterly convinced that Christ was raised from the dead by God THE FATHER, and that He(Jesus) came out of his tomb. And that Jesus is now my savior, friend, Lord, and God.

But if I didn't believe that HE actually came out of his tomb, then well, I wouldn't need Jesus, and I wouldn't waste one ounce of my time faithing in Him.

And the same goes with the Bible. There are reasons besides simple 'pie and the sky' type feelings that people beleive in the Bible. Predictions and fullfilled prophecies over thousands of years is a pretty good reason to believe anything. For example, before 1948 it was unthinkable to most people in the world that the state of Israel would be raised up again. But the Bible predicted it several times thousands of years earlier, just as it predicted the diaspora of the Jews and Israelites throughout the world.

But again, Metalligod, unless you beleive something because you are convinced that it is true, there is no other reason to believe it. Take the apostles of Jesus for example, every one of them(except for John) died horrible deaths rather than say that they were lying about Jesus. And they died apart from one another. Peter was hung upside down on a cross in Rome. Bartholemew was skinned alive with a whip. Thomas was pierced with a Brahmin sword in India. They all died swearing that Jesus raised from the dead. That's a pretty good testimony.

Would you die a horrible death rather than confess that you were lying about something? Shit, I wouldn't. I'd say, hey, easy there fellas, it was all just a joke. Lower your swords, put those whips and clamps away. I confess, I confess, already: JESUS DIDN'T RAISE FROM THE DEAD! NOW LET ME GO!!!

But none of the apostles did that. They faced the torture and they died.

And unless you beleive that strongly in Jesus, or God, I wouldn't waste your time with it Metalligod.

Later.

quote:Originally posted by Faithless:

performs evil acts on Gods behalf.

Now this has som validity, maybe your right about that. But if so then it still proves that god is an inconsiderate, conniving, self-absorbed, self-centered, selfish being.

Why else would his jealousness create a being of which, blame for all that is bad is directed towards.

While he(God) lavishes in all the praises that mankid gives.

quote:Originally posted by Dr. Spankinz:

Well, I'd just like to add this Metalligod. That bit about the gods needing people to beleive in them is just a bunch of romantic bullshit. A God doesn't need you to believe in him to be real any more than your kitchen table does. Or hey---try believing that I don't exist. I promise you, you'll just be wasting your time. I'll still be out there somewhere pickin' my toes and eating cheese doodles.

The only reason to believe anything, including a religion, is because you are convinced it is TRUE. Otherwise, you're just engaging in a social passtime.

For example. I am definitely a Christian. And I am utterly convinced that Christ was raised from the dead by God THE FATHER, and that He(Jesus) came out of his tomb. And that Jesus is now my savior, friend, Lord, and God.

But if I didn't believe that HE actually came out of his tomb, then well, I wouldn't need Jesus, and I wouldn't waste one ounce of my time faithing in Him.

And the same goes with the Bible. There are reasons besides simple 'pie and the sky' type feelings that people beleive in the Bible. Predictions and fullfilled prophecies over thousands of years is a pretty good reason to believe anything. For example, before 1948 it was unthinkable to most people in the world that the state of Israel would be raised up again. But the Bible predicted it several times thousands of years earlier, just as it predicted the diaspora of the Jews and Israelites throughout the world.

But again, Metalligod, unless you beleive something because you are convinced that it is true, there is no other reason to believe it. Take the apostles of Jesus for example, every one of them(except for John) died horrible deaths rather than say that they were lying about Jesus. And they died apart from one another. Peter was hung upside down on a cross in Rome. Bartholemew was skinned alive with a whip. Thomas was pierced with a Brahmin sword in India. They all died swearing that Jesus raised from the dead. That's a pretty good testimony.

Would you die a horrible death rather than confess that you were lying about something? Shit, I wouldn't. I'd say, hey, easy there fellas, it was all just a joke. Lower your swords, put those whips and clamps away. I confess, I confess, already: JESUS DIDN'T RAISE FROM THE DEAD! NOW LET ME GO!!!

But none of the apostles did that. They faced the torture and they died.

And unless you beleive that strongly in Jesus, or God, I wouldn't waste your time with it Metalligod.

Later.



You really really misinterpreted the hell out of what I said. First of all YOUR NOT A GOD, I said that gods need us to believe in them to exist. Ppl made us gods, and if they were real they'd need us to believe in them to go on, why the hell else would they covet our faith in them so extremely.

Second I don't believe in any God or gods, the thing is that I want to so I'm not wastin my time, I'm seeking knowledge, with prejudice and zero gullibility(meaning I'm not goin to believe in a religion just cause someone tells me I should, I'm digging for facts and questioning ppl).

Oh and ppl Keep your fuckin labels, cause I'm not Atheist, Agnostic, or anything else but human. If not human then nothing, so don't label me.

Ppl thanx for the responses, plz keep on educating me.

quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:



A good story always requires an antagonist.



So then you admit the bible stories are just a bunch of stories all fiction????

Hey Metalligod. I don't give a rats ass what you believe. I was just givin you my two cents worth. I have the right to say what I want just like you do. Grow the fuck up.

And hey, maybe God wants you and me to faith in Him because despite our assinine human ways, He loves us and doesn't want to have to wipe us off the face of the Universe. If there is a God, he certainly doesn't need you and me. By the very definition of God, we would need HIM.

Besides, I wouldn't want a God that needed me. What a punk-ass cheezy little god that would be.

Later

[This message has been edited by Dr. Spankinz (edited 09-03-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:



So then you admit the bible stories are just a bunch of stories all fiction????

No.

I could tell a story about what happened to me yesterday. For it to be good, though, it's gotta either be comedy, or have me as the protagonist and something else as an antagonist.

Doesn't make what happened to me yesterday any less true.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Part of the reason I believe the bible to be that and nothing more.

I agree, to an extent.

It's why I don't believe in the New Testament. Job's a little iffy, as well.

"Satan"'s not mentioned at all before Job. I think the whole book was added later, somewhwere down the line.

There's nothing that a conventional story would have in it in books like Leveticus or Numbers, though.

quote:Originally posted by Dr. Spankinz:

Hey Metalligod. I don't give a rats ass what you believe. I was just givin you my two cents worth. I have the right to say what I want just like you do. Grow the fuck up.

And hey, maybe God wants you and me to faith in Him because despite our assinine human ways, He loves us and doesn't want to have to wipe us off the face of the Universe. If there is a God, he certainly doesn't need you and me. By the very definition of God, we would need HIM.

Besides, I wouldn't want a God that needed me. What a punk-ass cheezy little god that would be.

Later

[This message has been edited by Dr. Spankinz (edited 09-03-2003).]

Bitch I was happy that you responded,

I respected your views, I wasn't knocking what you said I just thought you misunderstood me. You ignorant assinine cunt faced bastard, you need to grow up. Asking for the knowledge of others, is a pretty grown-up thing to do. So is respecting the views of others.

I didn't ask you to give a fuck what I believe in bitch. If yo dumbass aint going to post about the fuckin subject. Then PLEASEEEEEEEE! SHUT! THE! HELL! UP!!!!

Again thanx everyone for you post(except spankingmydad or whatever the hell his name is).

Monkeyspank your an asshole, sincerely. And if your gonna flame do it right. Go to bitch and moan.

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 09-03-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

I agree, to an extent.

It's why I don't believe in the New Testament. Job's a little iffy, as well.

"Satan"'s not mentioned at all before Job. I think the whole book was added later, somewhwere down the line.

There's nothing that a conventional story would have in it in books like Leveticus or Numbers, though.



Actually, my Judaeo-Christian Tradition professor wrote a book with an interesting and plausible discussion of Job. If you happen upon "The Jewish Tradition" by Jay Holstein in a used bookstore sometime, drop the cash for it.

Metalligod,

I'll pray for you.

Dr.Spankins

Well... I might look simple-minded, but I'm not going to get too wordy on you. Easy answer... no, most christians don't believe in the supernatural. We don't believe that people exist as ghosts after they die. Some christians believe that people go straight to heaven or hell, and some (like me) believe that they just stay in the ground, soul and all, until the second coming of Christ.

We DO however believe in demons, and tricks of satan... stuff of that sort. When I see someone on TV that claims to be talking to someone beyond the grave it is my belief that they are communicating with demons. When things happen and people chalk it up to the "supernatural" I instead believe it is evil. I don't mess around with witchcraft because I believe it is playing with the devil, so I also believe that witches are evil, perhaps possessed. I believe that the devil has human slaves and that he uses them to perform evil.

I believe the last thing the devil wants is for people to know they're playing into his hand (the devil is very good at what he does) and that's where all this acceptance and popularity/commercialization of witchcraft and the supernatural comes in.

Maybe, though I suspect the natural tendency of thirteen-year-old girls is to grasp onto bullshit like witchcraft in an attempt to show their independence, as well as to piss their parents off, has more to do with it.