In the Bible -Exodus/ and Levithicus- I can't remember te verses and whatnot. But God says someting like "You shall have no other gods before me". Then he goes on to say "For I the lord Your God am a Jealous god".

That sounds to me that he is acknowledging that there are others but he is the one that they should follow. Why else would he be jealous.

And also the Greek and Roman visions of hell were the same as the Christians. There are just different names for them(example: the river of fire). Styx river of fire that led to the underworld(hell).

Thou shalt not worship false idols.

I think that's all that need be said.

I think He meant there are others who will be followed (out of err) and called gods, but He is the only true God, and at that a jealous one. And that is understandable, why call upon that which hath no power to help you?

The abrahamite God of the Christians, Jews and Muslims said do not worship false idols.

Some Christian sects such as the Church of England recognise over religions God's as equals to their own.

However in the past some Christians debated whether the Christian god was the no.1 god.

An example: Gnostic Christians went along the line that God was just a local boy for the solar system and only represented part of Ultimate God.

quote:Originally posted by Wings Of Azrael:

He is the only true God, and at that a jealous one. And that is understandable...

I don't understand, so please explain it to me.

Well if you were in a position of the greatest power and everything that happened was under your control, would you want one whom you created to worship some idol or image that has no means to help them at all? That was and is my point, and that was His point. Call on He whom hath created you, created you from a clot, and taught man by pen, that which he knew not.

quote:Originally posted by Wings Of Azrael:

...a position of the greatest power...

Powerful enough to transcend a petty human emotion such as jealousy?

Allah is the All-Seeing, the All-Knowing. He is the Beneficient, the Merciful. His wrath has been kindled many times by idolaters who have chosen a statue or image to worship, rather than Him. The Torah says 'jealous' so I will venture to believe that God can feel anything he chooses, but He is a most just God, and most equitable. All the good or suffering on earth comes from Him and serves a most divine purpose regardless of whether or not we know what it is.

He seems pretty mean to me, man.

I mean, enternal damnation for those that don't believe in that which Mohammed believes seems like a real mean thing to do.

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good, they have their reward with their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. Holy Quran 2:62

That just sounds brutal and fascist and discriminatory doesn't it? You can pervert any verse from any holy book if you try hard enough, and you, being a jew, should know this.

I seem to recall reading an awful lot of passages dealing with siezing the enemy by his forelocks. Not to mention historical evidence, such as Qurayza.

I seems to have trouble locating that passage in my copy of the Koran. Is there a more specific location? I went to 2:64(the traditional 2:64, in "The Cow"), and found retellings of Leveticus, albeit in a much more poetic style.

Yes there are some violent passages in the Holy Quran, no doubt. You are prescribed to fight against your oppressors, not just any average Joe and not just for any reason. Islam didn't force converts. The Prophets own family had unbelievers and a Christian in it. He forced it on none of them, although he prescribed it to a couple of the unbelievers. It was up to them to accept it, and it is not known if they all did. The passage is at the beginning of section 8 of sura 2 (the cow) and is verse 62.

quote:Originally posted by user X:

Powerful enough to transcend a petty human emotion such as jealousy?



Thanx man u put it into words for me.

I've been tryin to say that in many diff. ways, if he's so powerful and godly, and whatnot then why the hell is petty jealousy his biggest personality trait to him. It is the one he himself picked out to describe himself.

He's like a bitch ass whinny rockstar, Oh I'm so rich and have a hot ass wife, and ppl worship me, but I'm unhappy, I think I'll kill myself(then bang he kobain's himself.

If God is real then he was by himself before man was created. So who the hell is there to be jealous of????

quote:Originally posted by Wings Of Azrael:

Yes there are some violent passages in the Holy Quran, no doubt. You are prescribed to fight against your oppressors, not just any average Joe and not just for any reason. Islam didn't force converts. The Prophets own family had unbelievers and a Christian in it. He forced it on none of them, although he prescribed it to a couple of the unbelievers. It was up to them to accept it, and it is not known if they all did. The passage is at the beginning of section 8 of sura 2 (the cow) and is verse 62.

He didn't force it on his family, yes. This we can be sure.

He sure as hell did to every Semitic tribe in the region, however.

How else do you think they converted everyone to Islam?

Qurayza. 800 men beheaded, only ONE abdicating his faith to join Islam. 800 men, and the women and children sold into slavery.

That was not a lone incident, either.

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Thanx man u put it into words for me.

I've been tryin to say that in many diff. ways, if he's so powerful and godly, and whatnot then why the hell is petty jealousy his biggest personality trait to him. It is the one he himself picked out to describe himself.

If he's so powerful and godly, what makes you think he couldn't just choose to be jealous?

He CREATED jealousy. Maybe he wants to be jealous.

quote:He's like a bitch ass whinny rockstar, Oh I'm so rich and have a hot ass wife, and ppl worship me, but I'm unhappy, I think I'll kill myself(then bang he kobain's himself.

I think you're getting a little off track there, pal.

quote:If God is real then he was by himself before man was created. So who the hell is there to be jealous of????

Did not God give the Ten Commandments AFTER man was created?

He created us and gave us free will. He knows for a FACT that he is the most omnipotent nigga in the universe. Yet, he sees people worshipping trees and statues. He sees people sacrificing their own people, sacrificing children to these false idols.

Now, God loves all of his creations. So, wouldn't he want that to stop?

On that last reply I will have to agree with Kikey. However, your previous post Kikey was somewhat biased. The semitic tribes your refer to are the same ones that tried to kill the Prophet(pbuh) as he was preaching peacefully. They aligned themseleves with the idolaters after signing a treaty with the Prophet(pbuh). I would probably do the same. Back then a treaty was something serious and binding. And what he did is no worse than what some of you guys did to people in the Torah. And just so it is known...I have no emnity towards TRUE believers of any Abrahamic faith. I think we could all do a lot better focusing on the stuff we have in common (i.e. GOD) instead of dogmatic and doctrinal disputes. However I am always a fan of debate. Anyways, may peace be upon you.

quote:Originally posted by Wings Of Azrael:

The semitic tribes your refer to are the same ones that tried to kill the Prophet(pbuh) as he was preaching peacefully.

I disagree.

Now, the tribe of which you speak, the Quraysh, did do this. However, they were after many others had been raided and slaughtered by Mohammed. Not just Jewish tribes, either.

626: The Jewish tribe of al-Nadhir crushed and expelled

627: The Jewish tribe of Quarayza, which I've already spoken of

629: The Jews of Khaybar put to the sword

These people did nothing wrong, save for not 'accept' Islam. The Quraysh were rats, though. Can't blame the Muslims for attacking them. I just wouldn't have made a truce in the first place.

quote:They aligned themseleves with the idolaters after signing a treaty with the Prophet(pbuh). I would probably do the same. Back then a treaty was something serious and binding. And what he did is no worse than what some of you guys did to people in the Torah.

Ah, but it is.

No Hebrew ever said "give up all that you believe in, or die." There was no conversion by the sword, only regular wars.

I think what Mohammed did was far worse.

quote:And just so it is known...I have no emnity towards TRUE believers of any Abrahamic faith. I think we could all do a lot better focusing on the stuff we have in common (i.e. GOD) instead of dogmatic and doctrinal disputes. However I am always a fan of debate. Anyways, may peace be upon you.

It would be preferable for the Abrahamic religions to coexist peacefully. Nowdays, this should be the course of action.

I must ask, though. What do you define as a "TRUE" believer?

As of right now, though, I'm speaking of the past. And, the past is grim. As I've said, the Islam of today is not what it was when Mohammed was alive. This is a good thing, as your prophet was a murderous tyrant.

But, enough of the past. You're right, we should learn to co-exist. Unfortunately, though, I just don't see that happening with Abrahamic people outside of America. The Middle East just wouldn't go for it.

Thats because many in the middle east still carry the old christian and muslim doctrine of "We are the best, convert of die". I find it ironic that of the three religions "spawned" from Abraham only one has not actively over a long period of time taken part of the whole convert by the sword phenomina. That one is of course the original. Kind of odd.

Suppose i couldve posted something on topic...

The whole jealousy issue is kind of funny, did it ever dawn on anyone that G-d does not only feel all human emotions but many we dont even know about. Im thinking perhaps it isnt true jealousy but the concept of jealousy is the closest our human minds can get to truly understanding the issue.

[This message has been edited by Fascistsmasher (edited 09-04-2003).]

The tribe of Banu Al-Nadhir was one of the three Jewish tribes living in Medina. They made a peace agreement with the Prophet(pbuh) when he arrived there in Medina. One of the terms of the peace agreement was that they should assist Muslims when Muslims need their help. One day the Prophet(pbuh) went to the tribe to ask for the help they had pledged in the treaty. The tribe pretended to welcome Muhammad(pbuh) but among themselves they were planning to kill him. First, they told him they were going give him the help which they had promised. Then, they asked him to sit down in the shade of a high wall. While the Prophet(pbuh) was sitting in the shade of the wall, they pretended that they needed to go inside for something. Instead, they went inside and asked one of them to go up and drop a huge rock on the head of the Prophet(pbuh) from the top of the wall. While Muhammad(pbuh) was waiting for them, Angel Gabriel(pbuh) came to him and informed hm of their plan. The Prophet(pbuh) left quickly and escaped their plan. So his crushing expulsion of the tribe is justified in my view and would be in most people's eyes.

The tribe of Banu Qurayza was also of the three Jewish tribes living in Medina at the time. According to the terms of the Charter of Medina, it was their duty to take an active part in defending the city during the siege of A.D. 627. But not only they did not contribute any men or materials during the siege but were actually caught conspiring with the enemy to compass the destruction of the Muslims. They even attacked a house in which many Muslim women and children had taken refuge as it was considered a safer place for them than their own houses. If Amr ibn Abd Wudd had overcome the resistance of the Muslims, the Jews would have attacked them from the rear. Between the pagans of Makkah and the Jews of Medina, the Muslims would have been massacred. It was only the presence of mind of Muhammad and the daring of Ali that averted such a disaster.

The Jews of Khaybar were nothing more than remnants of left over Jews from some of their settlements in Medina. They were in collusion with the pagans and enemies of the Prophet every since they saw Islam becoming a force. It had nothing to do with them being Jewish. It had to do with them aiding them enemies of the Prophet(pbuh) in attempts to kill him. And everything that happened to the tribes were in accordance to law and customs of Arabia at the time. So an attack on selling the women and children into slavery is foolish as your own people have did that before as well. As for being put to the sword, I recall reading that somewhere before...care to guess where?

You will never be able to have peace as long as you have people making inflammatory statements such as calling someone 'a murderous tyrant' and what not. A tyrant? No. Defender of muslims when under attack from pagan enemies? Yes. It just happened that the Jews who opposed the Prophet(pbuh) openly sided with the enemy and tried to kill him. If I was in that position I would have probably done the same. And if you were in the situation, what would you have done? This should be an interesting answer.

quote:Originally posted by Wings Of Azrael:

The tribe of Banu Al-Nadhir was one of the three Jewish tribes living in Medina. They made a peace agreement with the Prophet(pbuh) when he arrived there in Medina. One of the terms of the peace agreement was that they should assist Muslims when Muslims need their help. One day the Prophet(pbuh) went to the tribe to ask for the help they had pledged in the treaty. The tribe pretended to welcome Muhammad(pbuh) but among themselves they were planning to kill him. First, they told him they were going give him the help which they had promised. Then, they asked him to sit down in the shade of a high wall. While the Prophet(pbuh) was sitting in the shade of the wall, they pretended that they needed to go inside for something. Instead, they went inside and asked one of them to go up and drop a huge rock on the head of the Prophet(pbuh) from the top of the wall. While Muhammad(pbuh) was waiting for them, Angel Gabriel(pbuh) came to him and informed hm of their plan. The Prophet(pbuh) left quickly and escaped their plan. So his crushing expulsion of the tribe is justified in my view and would be in most people's eyes.

That is the biggest load of shit I've ever heard.

An entertaining story, nonetheless. However, that is not the real reason.

Very convenient that everyone Mohammed decided to crush was 'secretly conspiring to kill him.'

quote:The tribe of Banu Qurayza was also of the three Jewish tribes living in Medina at the time. According to the terms of the Charter of Medina, it was their duty to take an active part in defending the city during the siege of A.D. 627. But not only they did not contribute any men or materials during the siege but were actually caught conspiring with the enemy to compass the destruction of the Muslims. They even attacked a house in which many Muslim women and children had taken refuge as it was considered a safer place for them than their own houses. If Amr ibn Abd Wudd had overcome the resistance of the Muslims, the Jews would have attacked them from the rear. Between the pagans of Makkah and the Jews of Medina, the Muslims would have been massacred. It was only the presence of mind of Muhammad and the daring of Ali that averted such a disaster.

Interesting story. Just what proof did the prophet have of this conspiracy? Did Allah tell him? Gabriel enlightened him in a vision?

An entire tribe attacked a house full of women and children? Why?



I don't buy it for a second.

quote:The Jews of Khaybar were nothing more than remnants of left over Jews from some of their settlements in Medina. They were in collusion with the pagans and enemies of the Prophet every since they saw Islam becoming a force. It had nothing to do with them being Jewish. It had to do with them aiding them enemies of the Prophet(pbuh) in attempts to kill him. And everything that happened to the tribes were in accordance to law and customs of Arabia at the time. So an attack on selling the women and children into slavery is foolish as your own people have did that before as well. As for being put to the sword, I recall reading that somewhere before...care to guess where?

You're right. It had nothing to do with being Jewish.

It had EVERYTHING to do with them not being Muslim.

You say 'pagans' like it's some kind of sin. That they're enemies, simply because they didn't bow down to Mohammed.

I don't see it that way, and neither do the original people of Abraham.

Who WOULDN'T fight back against an attempt to force them to believe in something they didn't?

quote:You will never be able to have peace as long as you have people making inflammatory statements such as calling someone 'a murderous tyrant' and what not. A tyrant? No.

Yes.

quote: Defender of muslims when under attack from pagan enemies? Yes. It just happened that the Jews who opposed the Prophet(pbuh) openly sided with the enemy and tried to kill him. If I was in that position I would have probably done the same.

The enemy. Heh.

The enemy being anyone who didn't want to believe in what the Muslims believed in, and fought back.

quote: And if you were in the situation, what would you have done? This should be an interesting answer.

Oh, I would destroy my enemies. No question.

But, I wouldn't have had any enemies to begin with, as I don't believe in forcing your beliefs upon others.

Quote:

-------------------------------------------

That is the biggest load of shit I've ever heard. An entertaining story, nonetheless. However, that is not the real reason. Very convenient that everyone Mohammed decided to crush was 'secretly conspiring to kill him.'

--------------------------------------------

Who are you to deny the Angel Gabriel(pbuh) came to Muhammad(pbuh) and told him? In doing so he was preserving God's mission. I guess that is too simple for you to comprehend...ya know, the fact he only was against those who were against him. My goodness, there must be some other kind of deep hatred or something to explain this, something other than the obvious facts shown in my previous post.*high sarcasm here*

quote:

--------------------------------------------

Interesting story. Just what proof did the prophet have of this conspiracy? Did Allah tell him? Gabriel enlightened him in a vision? An entire tribe attacked a house full of women and children? Why? I don't buy it for a second.

--------------------------------------------

You don't have to believe the truth and what you believe is your opinion. It seems most of your arguments stem from Muhammad(pbuh) being anti-jew or something. And there really isn't any proof to back up your claims except distorted views on Muhammad(pbuh) destroying those who had tried to kill him. Odd how you never mention the many other jews who lived there in harmony. And Muhammad(pbuh) forced no one to 'bow down' to him...he wasn't a rabbi. He never fought against the Christians or other tribes that didn't forcibly try to kill him. The only stories of so-called 'slaughters' are mostly those spread around by discriminatory Jews who think no one but them can recieve divine revelation.

Quote:

--------------------------------------------

You're right. It had nothing to do with being Jewish. It had EVERYTHING to do with them not being Muslim. You say 'pagans' like it's some kind of sin. That they're enemies, simply because they didn't bow down to Mohammed. I don't see it that way, and neither do the original people of Abraham. Who WOULDN'T fight back against an attempt to force them to believe in something they didn't?

--------------------------------------------

Everything to do with them not being Muslim? Well if that were the case the whole of humanity would view Muhammad(pbuh) as being a 'murderous tyrant' as you called him. Original people of Abraham(pbuh)? Are you implying some kind of racial superiorty of the Jews? Surely not.*gasp* And just who were the original people of Abraham(pbuh)? Father Abraham(pbuh) came from Ur in southern Iraq. So I don't think I would be to far off in thinking he was arab or had arab ancestry. Are you saying the brethren of Ishmael(pbuh) aren't too the original people of Abraham? My my. I thought the original people of Abraham(pbuh) were arabs and jews. I guess not, huh? The Prophet(pbuh) only fought against those peoples because they fought and plotted against him. A just war and cause.

It is only your opinion that the Prophet(pbuh) was a tyrant. Sounds to me you are just a little disgruntled because a Jew lost to an Arab.

The enemy being anyone who didn't want to believe what the Muslims believed? I have already refuted this before.

I would destroy my enemies too. And there would be enemies because as long as there is good there will be bad and I will fight on the side of good.



[This message has been edited by Wings Of Azrael (edited 09-04-2003).]

I beleive there is only one god, he is omipitent, and takes on all facets of so called different gods, He is buddah, the hindu gods and goddess, all the abrahmite gods all in one. it is all on on cutural upbringing and traditions that changed god.



The teaching of all major religions are basically the same: Honor god and his will and be good to others and yourself, and you will be recieved into paradise.

It's simple when you think about it, like religious traditons. Judiaism and Islam both started in the middle east. In the middle east it gets very hot, and meat spoils eaisly in ancient times that is. So people couldn't keep meat fresh, so it festered. Some meats festered quicker than others and carried more pathogens. The people who ate this meat died. In order to keep population up, they decreed that this meat was against the will of god to eat. In my opinion this was how pork became against relgious priceples to eat for Muslims and Jews. Do you really think it was the will of god not to eat meat? I do not think so. Religion is a core of central ideas with smaller spriralling ideas that branch off. Like everything else on this earth it matches a mini solar system. verything revolves around the other. THis is what is beautiful about god, he made it so everything can be applied to evrything else.

In my opinion, God just wants to lead a good moral life and have respect for ourself and others.

You're missing a piece of the puzzle, Wings.

Why were they his enemies?

quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

He CREATED jealousy. Maybe he wants to be jealous.

Jealousy is a crippling emotional weakness that usurps spiritual power, therefore it's inherently contradictory to omnipotence.

He also "CREATED" mortality (inevitable and permanent death). Perhaps he experimented with that as well.

Fascistmasher posited that it's a sort of reverse-anthropomorphization, and it seems the most plausible thus far. But I don't think that god would experience human emotion--at least not in the same way as a human would: not be influenced, driven, or dominated by it. Those aren't the qualities of a superior being, much less an omnipotent one. To say, 'All powerful; implies that all is possible' would have to include god as a strictly human creation.

They were his enemies because they conspired with tribes who were trying to kill him and they themselves plotted to kill him. He wasn't out to destroy them because they were jews or because they didn't accept him as a prophet as you would have people believe. They were a threat to his life. Them and the pagans. They saw this new power(islam) and that Muhammad(pbuh) was a charismatic leader and they feared that. So at every point they tried to undercut him and destroy islam. But no matter their or the pagans efforts, God's will wouldn't be destroyed. Hence the formation of the world's largest community. Muhammad(pbuh) recognized that the jews and christians both had been given divine scriptures. He never denied that. But he also recognized that the followers of those religions had lost the true message and the true principles of their faith. So God sent him a revelation. The Muslims are the great nation that God promised Abraham(pbuh) for Ishmael(pbuh) in the old testament.

WHOA now if I was maker of the universe and my followers were worshipping little peddly gods who weren't shit and whats more were not even FUCKING real I'd be jealous and angry. We were made in God's image. Whose to say showing emotion and controling emotion aren't Godly. I mean animals don't have emotion. They don't show the complexity of emotions we have,show, and control. If a cat's kitten dies it'll either eat it or just ignore it to rot. When one of our children dies we mourn and show our respects. Just trying to make a point if anyone got it.

quote:Originally posted by Nikali4389:

WHOA now if I was maker of the universe and my followers were worshipping little peddly gods who weren't shit and whats more were not even FUCKING real I'd be jealous and angry. We were made in God's image. Whose to say showing emotion and controling emotion aren't Godly. I mean animals don't have emotion. They don't show the complexity of emotions we have,show, and control. If a cat's kitten dies it'll either eat it or just ignore it to rot. When one of our children dies we mourn and show our respects. Just trying to make a point if anyone got it.



Animal do have emotions that is a proven fact. It's been proven that dogs for instance can have human emotions. They can love, hate, and expirience seperation anxiety.

So can dolphins Primates and Cat types.

Did the inhabitants of Jericho fare any better than the inhabitants of Qurayza? One person out of hundreds spared

Of course, Moses didn't seek conversions. He just killed those that were in his way.

I know Kikey would probably take almost any oppourtunity to slam the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) as a murderous tyrant and such, so I feel obligated to respond to the comment about Moses(pbuh). However, I will not respond the way he would probably hope I would with a slam against Moses(pbuh). I feel Moses(pbuh) and Muhammad(pbuh) both did what they had to in order to bring people to the worship of the one true God.

You'd do well to point out the passages against compulsion in religion in the Quran then...

They didn't kill to convert people to God. They slayed the people out to destroy God and those who wanted to poison the believer's minds with polytheism and idolworship. There shall be no compulsion in religion. Hence, they didn't seek converts at the sword.

2:256Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error

10:99If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe

Seems pretty straightforward, except for those who believe that such commands have been abrogated (because it suits their purpose). I'll let you post some of the others...

Noble Verses 109:1-6 "Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine."

Noble Verse 42:15 "Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: 'I believe in the Book which God has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. God is our Lord and your Lord: for us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. God will bring us together, and to Him is (our) Final Goal.'"

I'm finding it amusing that some here who have said that verses in any Holy Book can be "perverted" are using verses from Holy Books to make their points. Given that most Holy Books were written in other languages and many (and the Bible specifically) were "translated" by people (men) with agendas and/or incomplete knowledge of idioms and (perhaps) alternate word meanings, I try to look past the dogma that has built around these modern day frameworks.

Also, since I believe Consciousness is God and Christhood is to be strived for by the Consciousnesses that collapse the waveform into the Now, I have a different take than most on such lines as "Thou shalt have no other God than Me," and "Only through Me can you be saved." "Me" being, of course, me.

The clues are in the Bible - and many other scriptures as well. Start with treating others with the respect one would like to receive from others.