Then why is he sending so many people to hell without giving them an opportunity to worship him? Think about all the people around the world that havent heard of the christian god, they're all going to hell. So are all the babies that die before they get a chance to worship him etc etc. Not very fair eh?

As you've probably realised, I'm not a christian, nor do I agree with the religion.

Discuss

Christianity never even pretended to make sense. (I have personal experiences with this.)

To speculate on who went where and why is in vain. We do not know where anyone has gone. God grants mercy and salvation to whom he will and is a just God. No soul shall be wronged. If you have never heard of the one God as a youth or in your culture then I don't know what will happen. I don't believe it would be bad. The Christian God is the same God of the Muslims and the Jews. There is only one God, the God of Abraham(pbuh). And know of all those who show mercy, he is the Most Merciful.

The Christian God is not the same as the Jewish God. Not even close.

Christianity and Islam have way more in common with each other than Judaism. Judaism's not even in the same fucking spectrum of the other two.

It might as well be an entirely different belief structure.

Kikeys right, the teachings of the "New testament" basically discount all of the Torah. And from what i know about Islam its the same situation there,

quote:Originally posted by Son of Northern Darkness:

Then why is he sending so many people to hell without giving them an opportunity to worship him?

I asked the same question to christian friends. They say that everyone will hear about christianity about once in their life. I think many will agree that that is total BS.

It is my belief that the Jews, Christians, and Muslims have the same God. The God of the old testament closely resembles the God of the Holy Quran. The new testament is shaky to me. I think it is very much altered from its original state and was perverted by Paul. The only part of the new testament I believe or put any kind of validity in are the quotes of Jesus(pbuh) himself. Kikey will probably disagree about the similarities of the Jew God and the Muslim God, but the similarities are very strong.

quote:Originally posted by Son of Northern Darkness:

Then why is he sending so many people to hell without giving them an opportunity to worship him? Think about all the people around the world that havent heard of the christian god, they're all going to hell. So are all the babies that die before they get a chance to worship him etc etc. Not very fair eh?

As you've probably realised, I'm not a christian, nor do I agree with the religion.

Discuss



I was wondering about this one a few years back, so I asked around. The Bible actually adresses this... as far as remembering WHERE in the Bible you can find the info I'm totally fucked, I just can't remember (oOOoh not a very good christian am i! hehe)

Anyway, the deal is... no one has to be TOLD about God in order to believe in Him. God made Himself evident in nature... so some dude sitting out on a secluded island in the middle of the ocean who has never even seen a missionary, all he has to do is look at the world around him, nature, the birds, trees, flowers, animals, his family, tribe etc.... and he can observe God. It is God's little "Hey, I'm here!" message to everyone, His signature if you will. Faith is inborn in man, he belongs to God, and is aware of God... if it weren't such a popular trend to be an athiest or agnostic then I seriously doubt many people would have any trouble with faith in God, because when you just look around He becomes so obvious.

If God left it up to us humans to save souls then that would be a pretty flawed plan, wouldn't it?

Christians do more damage to the case for God than anyone else in the world anyway, such a shame.

[This message has been edited by Sarcophagus (edited 09-04-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

I asked the same question to christian friends. They say that everyone will hear about christianity about once in their life. I think many will agree that that is total BS.

Despite the ranting of the psychos, most Christian groups I know of hold that the simple living of a moral life is good enough for God. It's just that, in their view, it's damn near impossible to live your life morally without regular help from a Christian congregation.

And sarcophagus, I wonder if you might be able to elaborate on your last post, as I'm genuinely baffled.

quote:Originally posted by Son of Northern Darkness:

Then why is he sending so many people to hell without giving them an opportunity to worship him? Think about all the people around the world that havent heard of the christian god, they're all going to hell. So are all the babies that die before they get a chance to worship him etc etc. Not very fair eh?

As you've probably realised, I'm not a christian, nor do I agree with the religion.

Discuss



You miss the main point of Christianity, it is based on one main principle. God gave man a law to live by, after man requested the law from God. God told man, since he requested the law, he had to live up to it, or furnish a sacrifice to make up for the short comings. After years of this and mans failing, God sent his son to fullfill the ultimate sacrifice for mans short comings, this was a gift. The basic premise of the christain faith is the acceptance of that gift. Man is not judged because of his sins and God does not send any one to Hell. Man was headed that way all by himself, and God as giving us a gift of a way out. It is the rejection of that gift that causes the problems, if you never reject a gift, it is yours. Babies, people eaten by lions in Africa before the missionaries came are covered, anyother thing you can think of for missed chances is covered.However people like you the scoff and make fun and reject the gift, you are headed your own way.... I hope for your sake you are right.

quote:Originally posted by Wings Of Azrael:

It is my belief that the Jews, Christians, and Muslims have the same God. The God of the old testament closely resembles the God of the Holy Quran. The new testament is shaky to me. I think it is very much altered from its original state and was perverted by Paul. The only part of the new testament I believe or put any kind of validity in are the quotes of Jesus(pbuh) himself. Kikey will probably disagree about the similarities of the Jew God and the Muslim God, but the similarities are very strong.



Well, it's my belief that ALL gods lead back to the same God. Pagan, Polythiest, Monotheist, all of them. Just different paths for different people.

I do agree with you, however, that something just doesn't seem right with the New Testament.

And Paul. Fucking Paul. A guy who never even knew Jesus. A guy who, for all we know, might have just been fucking insane and hallucinating. And THIS is the guy most Christians listen to.

Ah, well. Different strokes for different folks.

Paul's views often contradicted those of Christ(pbuh). As you said, Paul never even met Jesus(pbuh). Paul perverted the teachings of Christ(pbuh) injecting hints of paganism and mythology in order to get more of the gentiles to believe. And to revoke the food laws and the circumcision that were ordained forever by God? Paul was an anti-christ by himself. Anyone ever notice how after a rift appeared between Barnabas(pbuh) and Paul in the new testament, that Barnabas(pbuh) was never heard from again? That is because most of the new testament was recorded by the followers of paul. Anyone that wants an interesting read should pick up a copy of the 'Gospel Of Barnabas', it is most definitely an interesting read. Christians will call it heretical, but there is too much interesting information in it for it to be completely disregarded.

Some of the books that didn't get into the bible are quite amusing such as Jesus flying around etc.

I think that Christianity would have had to adopt pagan/polytheist practices anyway if it wanted to spread beyond the Med. Then again I think all the Abrahamite religions have adopted polytheistic beliefs at one point or another, for example the Jews worshipping the golden calf when Moses came down from the mount or Mohammed giving Mecca the Muslim tourist trade in exchange for peace.

Kikey, is Abraham a version of the Hindu Rahma and did the first Jewish tribe come from India?

Anyway back on topic, Son of Northern Darkness, it depends on what you assume. You assumed for the argument that there is a hell, you assume that there is a Christian God and you assume that God is just. I don’t think that it is a matter of worship or even acknowledging Gods existence, I think it’s a matter of following “do unto others as you want them to unto you”. Although I’m assuming that the karma thing is enough.

quote:Originally posted by Faithless:

Kikey, is Abraham a version of the Hindu Rahma and did the first Jewish tribe come from India?



I doubt it.

Abraham was no creator. Just another guy from Ur who ended up having some very unique grandkids.

While Hindu is one of the oldest known religions on Earth, why wouldn't an Indian tribe that migrated to the Middle East not just keep practicing Hindu?

I see no reason for them to create an entirely new religion. However, anything is possible.

faithless:

Mohammed giving Mecca the Muslim tourist trade in exchange for peace.

You wanna explain this? I'm not sure I know what this means exactly.

Holy shit! Is this entire thread off topic, or is it just the title?

Is God Fair?

This is one of those questions that stumps every religious philosopher and one of the biggest problems with most theism.

If "the good" or "morality" defines God, then God is limited and not all powerful.

If God defines the good, then the good is arbitrary and there is no reason why anyone is bad and deserves hell other than the whim of God.

I asked some theological and Christian philosophy professors this question in college and while they admitted it was a problem, they said that the solution was that God is good.

That is just a play on words. It is a tautology that says that they define each other. If that is the case, the statement that “the good defines God” is true, God has a definition, and He is not infinite. None of the profs were willing to concede that, but they had no answer.

-Easy

quote:If "the good" or "morality" defines God, then God is limited and not all powerful.

It wouldn't 'limit' him. This idea is along the same lines as, "god can't have a body because it would 'define'/'limit' him"; which is wrong.

An omnipotent God could choose to have a body, just as he could choose to be good or bad. He would only be limited if he did not have a choice.

Actually your all wrong. The bible says that those who dont know about god aren't sent to hell. I'll go see if i can find where...

I didn't find any specific scripture, but I know that you can't sin without knowing you did it. It's like the age of (cant think of it) when a child realizes right and wrong. Your not doing anything wrong, unless you know it's wrong. Same with the people who dont know about god. You can't sin, without knowing your doing. So if a person doesnt know, they aren't sinning.

[This message has been edited by bigtmoney (edited 09-06-2003).]

Unaware individuals are perfectly capable of sinning. If you are possessed of a neshama, a human soul, then the noahide laws apply to you. These are all common sense, so it isn't usually a problem.

Nope.

Sin is a consiounce (sp) wrong. Not just a wrong. And like i said, it's impossible to do wrong without knowing it.

Wings Of Azrael.

Mohammad went to Mecca preaching monotheism and no icons. Since Mecca made a lot of money peddling icons to polytheists they drove him out. Later after setting himself up fairly well in Medina and starting the faith and all that he made the deal. The deal was in exchange for Mecca’s support for the new faith, getting rid of all the old icons and all that, they would get the Muslim pilgrim trade to the Ka'bah icon guaranteeing the town an income.

That’s what I meant by “giving Mecca the Muslim tourist trade in exchange for peace” and Islam adopting some polytheistic ways.

quote:Originally posted by bigtmoney:

Nope.

Sin is a consiounce (sp) wrong. Not just a wrong. And like i said, it's impossible to do wrong without knowing it.

You are still missing the point, Christainity teaches that Christ died to allow his blood to cover the price of sin, you do not go to hell for sinning, you go there for a concience rejection of the gift he furnished when he died for you.

quote:Originally posted by bigtmoney:

Nope.

Sin is a consiounce (sp) wrong. Not just a wrong. And like i said, it's impossible to do wrong without knowing it.

It is very possible to sin with out knowing it, that is why the jewish faith had a "just in case" sacrificial lamb. It was to cover any of the law they unintentionally broke. Not the ten commandants, people, the law, read further in the Bible for the complete law. And that is also why The Christian faith teaches that Christ died to fullfil the requirement of the Law with his blood.

quote:Originally posted by Easy Going:

Holy shit! Is this entire thread off topic, or is it just the title?

Is God Fair?

This is one of those questions that stumps every religious philosopher and one of the biggest problems with most theism.

If "the good" or "morality" defines God, then God is limited and not all powerful.

If God defines the good, then the good is arbitrary and there is no reason why anyone is bad and deserves hell other than the whim of God.

I asked some theological and Christian philosophy professors this question in college and while they admitted it was a problem, they said that the solution was that God is good.

That is just a play on words. It is a tautology that says that they define each other. If that is the case, the statement that “the good defines God” is true, God has a definition, and He is not infinite. None of the profs were willing to concede that, but they had no answer.

-Easy

What you have been told is a vanilla ice cream version told to quickly dismiss some one you dont want to have a discussion with. Is God fair? Who said he was.. the Bible, in the original languages say he is "just" two different things. To explain... fair is when you have two children, one ten and one four. You have one chocolate bar. You divide it in half and give equal halves to each child. "Just" is when you have the same situation and you break it into enqual parts, because the younger child, while he still gets the chocolate, cannot handle as much sugar and caffine that is in the chocolate as the older child.

People always try to explain God as being "Good", but then cant explain why a "good" God allows bad things to happen, a "just" God, while he doesn't make bad things happen, he allows the circumstances to temper the environment.

God has never defined "good", even with the Jewish law,( the ten plus several hundred commandments) it was Israel that demanded them from God. All through the bible, God has seemed to persue a "Father/Child" relationship with man.And that type of relationship always is flexible and varies through time. It is man in his persuit of dominance over other man that has has used the term "Good".

Islam is uncompromising monotheism. The worship of anything besides Allah, or making partners with Him, is blasphemous and can be punished by death.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

It wouldn't 'limit' him. This idea is along the same lines as, "god can't have a body because it would 'define'/'limit' him"; which is wrong.

An omnipotent God could choose to have a body, just as he could choose to be good or bad. He would only be limited if he did not have a choice.

If God was good by His nature, then it does define Him and limits Him.

If He is not good by nature, then half or more of the religions fail, and the question of if He defines what is good still remains.

If the good is what it is, and God has to accept or reject it, it is still limiting. If He defines what is good, then it is arbitrary.

-Easy

quote:Originally posted by jester461:

What you have been told is a vanilla ice cream version told to quickly dismiss some one you dont want to have a discussion with.

You're an idiot.

quote:Originally posted by jester461:

Is God fair? Who said he was.. the Bible, in the original languages say he is "just" two different things. To explain... fair is when you have two children, one ten and one four. You have one chocolate bar. You divide it in half and give equal halves to each child. "Just" is when you have the same situation and you break it into enqual parts, because the younger child, while he still gets the chocolate, cannot handle as much sugar and caffine that is in the chocolate as the older child.

People always try to explain God as being "Good", but then cant explain why a "good" God allows bad things to happen, a "just" God, while he doesn't make bad things happen, he allows the circumstances to temper the environment.

God has never defined "good", even with the Jewish law,( the ten plus several hundred commandments) it was Israel that demanded them from God. All through the bible, God has seemed to persue a "Father/Child" relationship with man.And that type of relationship always is flexible and varies through time. It is man in his persuit of dominance over other man that has has used the term "Good".

Damn it, stop putting words in my mouth! I never defined good or fair or moral. Whatever it is, if the nature of it is outside of God's control, then God is limited. If it is not, then God is arbitrary. The same goes for evil. The question remains if God sets the rules for going to hell, or if He is at their mercy.

-Easy

quote:If God was good by His nature, then it does define Him and limits Him.

If he chooses between good or evil, then obviously he isn't good by nature.

quote:the question of if He defines what is good still remains.

"there is no reason why anyone is bad and deserves hell other than the whim of God."

And? In basically all religions that is the case.

quote:and God has to accept or reject it, it is still limiting.

He would be limiting himself. There is a difference. Being limited (not by himself)implies he having no other choice, hence a flaw.

^That means there is no reason to be good other than fear, and the love of God is meaningless. BTW, that is an answer that does make logical sense, but I seriously doubt that anyone who represented authority in any religion would endorse it. I have seen that position rejected several times.

-Easy

quote:That means there is no reason to be good other than fear, and the love of God is meaningless.

You ignore other reasons to be good. Such as feeling good, going to heaven (as many religions believe) etc.

^My understanding was those are rewards, but not reasons to be good as they would be selfish.