Everytime somebody "proves" to me the existence of a god, their statement or argument is loaded with fallacies. This is one of the main reasons I became an Atheist. The Atheists arguments that I have heard have all been much more convincing and sensical, as opposed to the die-hard believers who insist things such as: "well thousands of years worth of believers cant be wrong!" and "its impossible to prove there ISNT a god!!!" These are both fallacies, and the second one, a very common argument, makes little impact, becuase I could just as well claim that there are 500 foot invisible incorporeal floating dinosaurs, and how could he disagree without being hypocritical?

If you can't believe it, fine.

I sure as hell won't force you.

Other people have their own reasons for believing in it.

But neither side of the argument can be proven.

quote:Originally posted by cashual21:

...as opposed to the die-hard believers who insist things such as: "well thousands of years worth of believers cant be wrong!"

http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/ad_populum.jpg" width="90" height="90 (http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/ad_populum.jpg" width="90" height="90)

Try this one....The only reason why people blieve in their gods is to feel a sense of existance...they can't go on knowing if they die, thats it, nothing left. Having beliefs/faith brings ease to people...without faith the world would be in utter chaos.

I have never seen absolute proof either...but faith is strong enough for me...however i do question sometimes his/her existance.

Remember, finding artifacts of religion...no matter how far back do prove an existance of Jesus...however there is no divine proof he is in any which way a messenger from God.

DD

[This message has been edited by daveydavey11 (edited 09-12-2003).]

I have never heard a convincing argument that God doesn't exist. It is not of my problems that you no have faith nor belief. I seek the bounty of God, not His wrath.

Wings, yes, you've never heard a good arguement to disprove any religious scholars because we have just entered a new era of knowledge/science/thoeries. Mankind is still young...its really been less than 50 years that people have started to question the authority of religion. I too seek his bounty and not wrath but its nature to think...thats why he gave us souls...to use them...not confine them...to have a good debate...you must be open minded...I am and I seek knowledge, as much as I can...If you so faitful....why are you replying to us...in fact why are you in this forum(religion)anyway. Any alarms going off in your head yet?????

quote:Originally posted by daveydavey11:

1.you've never heard a good arguement to disprove any religious scholars because we have just entered a new era of knowledge/science/thoeries.

2. Mankind is still young...its really been less than 50 years that people have started to question the authority of religion.

3.I too seek his bounty and not wrath but its nature to think...thats why he gave us souls...to use them...not confine them...to have a good debate...you must be open minded...I am and I seek knowledge, as much as I can...

4. If you so faitful....why are you replying to us...in fact why are you in this forum(religion)anyway. Any alarms going off in your head yet?????

1. Dude what in the FUCK are you talking about? of course we have new knowledge/science/ and theories, time actually has progressed forward...

2. that's just fucking stupid, read a book.

3. okay, so you're a a self proclaimed athiest yet you seek god's bounty? not gonna touch that one... and souls do not equal free will. To different things. but you would know that if you READ A FUCKING BOOK. you know those things where smart people who study this shit write down what they think? notice I said think also. it's something you should look into since you're "seeking knowledge" and obviously not postulating with a highschooler's wisdom and life experiences.

4. I'm going to forget you even asked such a retarded question, go drink some juice and watch t.v. or something. You're right there is no God, and if there is a hell I'll see you there.

I have actually heard a convincing argument for the existence of God. Unfortunately, such an argument also rules out the existance of an afterlife. It's supposed to be an uplifting argument, but with the sweetest part of the deal gone I can't get on board. The argument was made by the excellent Josiah Royce, but unfortunately I can't remember the name of the book at the moment.

HEY DOOFUS,

What the hell are you smoking?????????

1st of all, I was stating an opinion you idiotic 2 brain celled FUCK!!!!!

Did you even understand me?????

1. The past 50 years....imagine 50 yrs from now..what do you think will be different? I know religion will certainly change... UMMMM, not everything will change.....time will tell is what I was implying.

2. You should read "Reading and Interpretating for 2 Braincelled Organisms"!!! Nevermind, you probably wrote that one....you dumb ass.

3. I believe in a higher existance but science weakens my faith....caught in the middle...Im not afraid to say Im confused...shit im only 16 and im lost already. Maybe i will become atheist...I dont know but I'm pretty sure I never said I was an atheist. HMMM, im positive i probably read a lot more than you....if not, I feel for you cause your intreptaional skillzzz are pretty lame.

4. What was my question?????? i dont remember posting one....if youre implying the "any alarms" one, then you would have noticed it was more retorical. It was just a stated towards that fella WINGS, he/she seems very religious, soooo I was implying why would a devout follower even bother(with this forum) with the atheists or peeps like me (lost).

GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR MOTHERS COOCH....CAUSE YOURE LOSING TOO MANY BRAIN CELLS IN THAT STANK SHIT!!!!!!!!

Could you interpret that one????? take your time......take your time.

Got it, got it, GOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by daveydavey11:

Wings, yes, you've never heard a good arguement to disprove any religious scholars because we have just entered a new era of knowledge/science/thoeries.

...700 years ago.

quote: Mankind is still young...its really been less than 50 years that people have started to question the authority of religion.

...more than 500 years ago by Martin Luther.

Ed: My brain died. I meant to say over 2410 years ago by Socrates.

quote:I too seek his bounty and not wrath but its nature to think...thats why he gave us souls...to use them...not confine them...to have a good debate

No, that's why deans give debate teams microphones - to have a good debate.

quote:...you must be open minded...I am and I seek knowledge, as much as I can... If you so faitful....

Without missing a period, you glide into a statement that indicates you aren't seeking enough knowledge.

quote:why are you replying to us...in fact why are you in this forum(religion)anyway. Any alarms going off in your head yet?????

Um... Because he engaged in conversation about religion... which, unless I'm missing something crucial, is why we are all in this forum.

[This message has been edited by Tyrant (edited 09-12-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by daveydavey11:

HEY DOOFUS,

...1st of all, I was stating an opinion you idiotic 2 brain celled FUCK!!!!!

Did you even understand me?????

1. The past 50 years....imagine 50 yrs from now..what do you think will be different? I know religion will certainly change... UMMMM, not everything will change.....time will tell is what I was implying.

Actually, a few cells short of Everything In Existence will change.

quote:2. You should read "Reading and Interpretating for 2 Braincelled Organisms"!!! Nevermind, you probably wrote that one....you dumb ass.

If you liked that, how about my book, "Exploiting the Web: Learning To Adequately and Succinctly Launch Mediocre Insults With More Spelling Errors Than a Schizophrenic Australian Aborigine." Best-seller amongst pre-pubescents.

quote:3. I believe in a higher existance but science weakens my faith....caught in the middle...Im not afraid to say Im confused...shit im only 16 and im lost already. Maybe i will become atheist...I dont know but I'm pretty sure I never said I was an atheist. HMMM, im positive i probably read a lot more than you....

Your vocabulary suggests you've stayed at the same level of literature since you achieved your mediocre understanding of the English language.

quote:if not, I feel for you cause your intreptaional skillzzz are pretty lame.

Intreptaional isn't a word. (http://www.spellcheck.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=intreptaional+)

quote:4. What was my question?????? i dont remember posting one....if youre implying the "any alarms" one, then you would have noticed it was more retorical. It was just a stated towards that fella WINGS, he/she seems very religious, soooo I was implying why would a devout follower even bother(with this forum) with the atheists or peeps like me (lost).

From the description page of this forum:

My God Can Beat the Shit Out of Your God

For discussing any and all religious viewpoints. Intolerance will not be tolerated. Keeping your sense of humor is required. Posting messages about theological paradoxes is encouraged.

quote:GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR MOTHERS COOCH....CAUSE YOURE LOSING TOO MANY BRAIN CELLS IN THAT STANK SHIT!!!!!!!!

Could you interpret that one????? take your time......take your time.

Got it, got it, GOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



Yea, you might forget punctuation or adequate grammar skills if you spend most of your time relatively close to the womb.

[This message has been edited by Tyrant (edited 09-12-2003).]

*walks into room and wonders what is burning*

Wingz, you want to know whats burning??????

MY ASS IS ON THE FUCKING GRILL!!!!!! http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

I usually type once....and do not spell check....why the heck would any1 wanna do that....we all understand what the heck we're trying to say....i think some people have to much time on their hands. Maybe, theyre prefectionists....nah....the tyrant must be lonely, oh soooo lonely....take your time tyrant make sure to spellcheck aaaallll your homework baby....thats a good boy.

Proof, for some anyway.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/100203.htm

A convincing argument is only possible if you create it yourself. In this case anyway.

This shit gets really old. Noone gives a fuck wether you believe in God or not. Have you not seen the other numerous posts about people believing in god or not.

i want to hear a good debate becuz i have no faith in god. if any person has faith then u dont need to b shown miracles, scientific proof, or debates. you need to truly believe in the power of god.

I just remembered it. "The Philosophy of Josiah Royce" - check up on it, the dude rocks.

Hmmm, I'll have to hang around this locale more often.

Explain to me why/how the big bang happened, then try to explain to me if God doesn't exist. Something had to get it "all" started, I believe that something was God. How would all this matter just appear, something had to put it their. it was God.

quote:Originally posted by punkrawkerstonershit:

Explain to me why/how the big bang happened, then try to explain to me if God doesn't exist. Something had to get it "all" started, I believe that something was God. How would all this matter just appear, something had to put it their. it was God.

That doesn't solve the problem. Where did God come from?

Couldn't we just deal with what we currently know, infer the best solution with the minimum amount of entities, and cut out the middleman entirely like so:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/234220/orazor.gif" width="90" height="90 (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/234220/orazor.gif" width="90" height="90)

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

Couldn't we just deal with what we currently know, infer the best solution with the minimum amount of entities, and cut out the middleman entirely like so:

As much as I know you love that Occam's Razor .gif, 'cutting out the middleman' still doesn't expain how everything came into existence.

So, deal with only what you can see and measure if you want, but we'll never be able to figure out where it all truly came from in this lifetime, no matter what your beliefs.

I'll have a (short) crack at convincing you.

It's like the wind. You can't see it but you know it's there because you can see its effects.

You can't see God but you can see his effects.

Plus there are millions of people that think that God exists, the Bible and the name Moses.

I used to be like you until I started seeing these 2012 theories. Supposedly it is even in Bible Code. I'm not saying that I have become a fanatic over this, I have just realized that there is a possibility of a higher power existing, and that a lot of this stuff is worth a closer look, one I have yet to have a chance to take.

How many more times do I have to show that the Bible Code was conclusively proven to be fraudulent by Brendan McKay when he found even more details of past history and the assassination of Yitzak Rabin in Moby Dick (http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html) before people stop taking that work of fiction seriously?

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 09-15-2003).]

the fact of the matter is that the universe BEGAN somehow, watch steven hawking's movie if you need detailed illustration. It didn't just poof into existance to the constellations that are present now, it originated from one point, I guess a humongous ball of matter(but it could be tiny I'm not sure) was sitting in absolute singlularity for who know's how long. And then for SOME reason this ball of stuff just explodes and flings things out in vectors from that point. (vectors didn't exist prior to the explosion, if you doubt you're retarded). And thus eventually created the physics than govern the universe and our own planet, like a piece of sand floating around in a lake. At which point for SOME reason life "spontaneously" began with single cell organisms and graduated with a few exceptions to what we now call the world around us.

There are two VERY LARGE holes missing in that theory. I choose to stick God in those holes.

quote:Originally posted by Doofnoil2:

There are two VERY LARGE holes missing in that theory. I choose to stick God in those holes.

How do you know this is the god of whatever religion you follow?

quote:Originally posted by Doofnoil2:

There are two VERY LARGE holes missing in that theory. I choose to stick God in those holes.

*snicker*

Naw, I'm not cruel enough to make a dirty pun.

Anyway, there's a new theory on the creation of the universe that doesn't rely on a dense ball of matter suddenly exploding, but on the collision between two branes in the fifth dimension. I bring you the ekpyrotic theory. http://feynman.princeton.edu/~steinh/npr/

I believe that, eventually, we will find a way to jump-start the basic building blocks of life in the lab. Years and years and years ago, you might point out that we have no idea how old our planet is. Or you might use the argument that we're obviously God's special creatures because the Sun, planets and the rest of the universe revolve around us... or any number of other things that we've since discovered through science.

We may not have a definitive answer at the moment, but I believe that one day we will.

Realize that Atheism is a faith.

quote:Originally posted by Jadedfool:

Realize that Atheism is a faith.

Naw, atheism is a complete lack of faith. I don't think any atheists actually have faith in the non-existance of a deity. Rather, they just haven't thoroughly thought out their beliefs. I find atheism extremely irrational. Religion I can understand, atheism I can't. You may see no proof that God exists, but you can't tell me there's no proof that a god DOESN'T exist. I believe in the existence of extraterrestrial life despite never seeing an alien.

I don't believe in a specific God, but I'm also not foolish enough to state that one doesn't exist, just that one might not exist that fits your specific description of It.

quote:Originally posted by Mota Boy:

you can't tell me there's no proof that a god DOESN'T exist. I believe in the existence of extraterrestrial life despite never seeing an alien.

Do you believe in Santa Claus? or the proverbial invisible pink unicorns?

quote:I don't believe in a specific God, but I'm also not foolish enough to state that one doesn't exist, just that one might not exist that fits your specific description of It.

I think you are yet another of those who misdefines atheism.

Atheism

1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.

2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

No, I think I pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I don't believe in Santa. I don't believe in pink unicorns (how could you know their color if they're invisible?).

You're talking about fairly earthly things. Things (such as terrestrial organisms) that have long been under the realm of science [however, just to make it interesting, prove to me that invisible pink unicorns DON'T exist]. The existence of a deity could never be experimented with in a lab or in a field study. There's nothing to compare it to. To make another "progress of science" analogy, 500 years ago I couldn't prove to you the existence of atoms, but it would be pretty foolish of me to state that because I can't prove to you that it exists, it automatically doesn't.

[This message has been edited by Mota Boy (edited 09-16-2003).]

The way I see it is that you belivers need a god to make the painfulness of your own inadequecies go away

quote:Originally posted by Mota Boy:

Anyway, there's a new theory on the creation of the universe that doesn't rely on a dense ball of matter suddenly exploding, but on the collision between two branes in the fifth dimension. I bring you the ekpyrotic theory. http://feynman.princeton.edu/~steinh/npr/

I'm reminded of the Norse creation myth of the combination of fire from Muspelheim and ice from Niflheim... ancient archetypes? Cosmic prediction? Life is timing and irony.

quote:Originally posted by cyberdweeb231188:

The way I see it is that you belivers need a god to make the painfulness of your own inadequecies go away

How is believing in intelligent cosmic design compensation for any inadequacies you assume believers have?

quote:Originally posted by Mota Boy:

Atheism

1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.

2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

While I agree with your statement concerning the difference between earthly things and spiritual, immediately imperceivable things, I don't agree with your idea that atheism isn't a religion. It just renames God as Science and offers human understanding concerning how God/Science works.

After all, your second definition does state it is a doctrine concerning the inexistence of God or gods. Forgive me for playing the word game.

[This message has been edited by Tyrant (edited 09-16-2003).]

That's strong atheism.

Weak atheism is simply the lack of any belief in gods. Not claiming that they specifically do not and can not exist, but simply not believing in gods. It makes no claim so here is no burden of proof.

So, unless you have this supremely irrational disbelief in the invisible pink unicorns and religious beliefs are just the invisible pink unicorns under a different name, then you had best accept the reasonable alternative.

quote:Originally posted by cyberdweeb231188:

The way I see it is that you belivers need a god to make the painfulness of your own inadequecies go away

There is an element of truth to this. Religion is a supremely effective defense mechanism.

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

That's strong atheism.

Weak atheism is simply the lack of any belief in gods. Not claiming that they specifically do not and can not exist, but simply not believing in gods. It makes no claim so here is no burden of proof.

It is therefore not atheism, but agnosticism. Strong atheism is atheism; weak atheism is agnosticism because it would allow for the acceptance of "God" if a convincing enough example were given.

In other words, "weak atheism" is just throwing your hands in the air and saying "I don't know."

quote:So, unless you have this supremely irrational disbelief in the invisible pink unicorns and religious beliefs are just the invisible pink unicorns under a different name, then you had best accept the reasonable alternative.

CS Lewis once said that the way people argue concerning Christianity and religion in general is suggesting that "If there is an invisible cat on that chair, it would look empty... and since it looks empty, there is an invisible cat on the chair."

You're thinking too symmetrically and anthropomorphically when you think of God. I typically use the term God because it's easier than writing "Supernatural principles and metaphysical codes by which every rationally thinking organism abide." But that's what I mean... not something physical like a man or a unicorn. Of course, I can only speak for myself.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

There is an element of truth to this. Religion is a supremely effective defense mechanism.

Tyrant: How is believing in intelligent cosmic design compensation for any inadequacies you assume believers have?

I could say that inflating my ego to assume I created the universe, or am the master of my own, is more of a defense mechanism than understanding I am subordinate to things I can't control, understand, or influence.

after reading tyrants posts nothing more needs be said really.

I can't tell if that's sarcasm... if it's not, thank you.

Hahaha...

cyberdweeb231188, thank you for your truely insightful, unique, and well read observation on religion. May you have many children.

Craftian: I don't belong to a religion(AGNOSTICISM), I'm aof the belief that all divine religions are point towards on singular god. which for whatever reason created movement, afterall energy in transferred from matter to matter, something doesn't spontaneously start moving for no scientific reason, right?

quote:Originally posted by Mota Boy:

Atheism

1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.

2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

No, I think I pretty much hit the nail on the head.

What about lack of God belief, commonly referred to as weak atheism?

quote:I don't believe in Santa. I don't believe in pink unicorns (how could you know their color if they're invisible?).

"you can't tell me there's no proof that a (Santa Claus) DOESN'T exist."

quote:The existence of a deity could never be experimented with in a lab or in a field study.

Therefore that deity has no effect upon the universe. Therefore that deity, for all intents and purposes, does not exist.

quote:it would be pretty foolish of me to state that because I can't prove to you that it exists, it automatically doesn't.

In that case, just because I can't prove the existence of the bicycle pump gremlin it would be pretty foolish of you to state it doesn't exist.

[This message has been edited by Craftian (edited 09-17-2003).]

quote:It is therefore not atheism, but agnosticism.

Atheism.

A-theism.

Lack of theism.

quote:In other words, "weak atheism" is just throwing your hands in the air and saying "I don't know."

"Do you think that Winston Churchill lives in the centre of the sun?"

"Probably not, but I don't know."

quote:You're thinking too symmetrically and anthropomorphically when you think of God.

Perhaps because God, as generally defined, is anthropomorphic?

quote:I typically use the term God because it's easier than writing "Supernatural principles and metaphysical codes by which every rationally thinking organism abide."

Then you're muddying the waters by not making it clear what you believe.

I found this thing in my cutlery drawer - it looks like a very small curved shovel. I think I'll call it a fork to avoid having to write that out every time.

Sorry about the double post, I wasn't paying attention.

I reckon Buddah shits on all your Gods.