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View Full Version : Endogenous Retroviral Insertions Demonstrate Evolution Beyond a Reasonable Doubt


WinAce
2003-09-12, 05:20
1. Background

Viral infections. We all know and hate them. From the common cold to the common cold sore, they're annoying little buggers. The virus particle invades a cell, injects its proprietary genome, hijacks the cellular machinery and turns it into a virus-making factory. Upon successful completion of this process, the cell begins releasing fresh copies of the virus, often by bursting and dying.

Occasionally, however, something goes wrong in the integration process. When this occurs, the cell can survive, but selected portions of the viral DNA remain in its genome. These vary from infection to infection, not just from virus to virus.

In effect, the cell becomes permanently scarred and carries the unique, identifiable fingerprint of its assailant. (Source (http://www.hallym.ac.kr/~jinpark/int.html))

Since the markers are now in the genome, they become hereditary--hence, any descendant of the afflicted cell will contain the same exact viral fingerprint(s) at the same exact spot in its DNA.

Viral infections are, of course, not limited to the mucous membranes, blood stream and lungs. Under certain conditions, they can also infect a germ line (egg or sperm) cell. The odds of this cell now surviving to adulthood are astronomically low; not only does it have to survive a viral infection, but be one of the extremely lucky few that ever make it to merge with their counterpart and form a viable zygote.

However, this does occur. When it does, the resulting offspring has the unique viral fingerprint embedded in every cell in its body, what is known as an "endogenous retroviral insertion", henceforth referred to as an ERV. (Source (http://www-micro.msb.le.ac.uk/3035/Retroviruses.html))

ERVs can be easily identified by their extreme similarity to known retroviruses. They even contain vestiges of gag, env and pol genes that code for viral surface proteins (explanation of GEP protein coats (http://www.stanford.edu/group/nolan/tutorials/ret_3_maj_prot.html), information on their presence in ERVs (http://www-micro.msb.le.ac.uk/3035/Retroviruses.html)).

We've directly observed creation of new, identifiable ERVs by viral integration into cells in vitro, as well, so this process is as well-documented (if not more) as fossil formation. When it occurs in ordinary cells, it can break mutagenesis and cancer. High-risk papillomaviruses have been indicted as one of the leading causes of cervical cancer, for example. (Source (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12813471&dopt=Abstract))

Like any genes, the viral elements can then piggyback on the success of an individual and become established in the entire species. In small populations, this can easily occur via genetic drift (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/genetic-drift.html) (random establishment of selectively neutral or deleterious alleles). In larger ones, natural selection can work to establish the few ERVs that yield a benefit to their host.

Each step in the process is not very common, and has unique aspects that are extremely unlikely to be reproduced in two independent cases of ERV creation. Hence, when they all occur, the organisms possessing the ERV are marked with a molecular fossil that will prove indispensible in tracing their origin.

2. Evolutionary Implications of ERVs

In a nutshell, this can serve as a "paternity test" of sorts: if you find the same endogenous retroviral insertion in two different organisms, the only viable explanation is that they inherited same from a common ancestor that, itself, possessed it. Offshoot species will have the same unlikely and easily identifiable ERVs, enabling us to construct accurate phylogenies from an independent line of evidence.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/images/retrovirus.gif" width="90" height="90 (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/images/retrovirus.gif" width="90" height="90)

Human endogenous retroviral insertions in identical chromosomal locations in various primates. Notice just how well the standard evolutionary phylogeny, derived from fossil and anatomical evidence (humans and chimps closest, then orangutans and gorillas, then gibbons, then old world monkeys, then new world monkeys) is corroborated by this uniquely independent line of evidence.(Source (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section4.html#retroviruses))

As a side note, ERVs have also been used to reconstruct the relationships between dogs, jackals, wolves and foxes, among other species of domestic animal.

Needless to say, this offers a quick and easy way to experimentally test if any two organisms are *un*related. If they are, they won't share any ERVs. If you find the same one at the same place in their genomes, however, the hypothesis they originated independently is effectively falsified.

Due to the nature of the branching tree of life, ERVs shared between distantly-related organisms will have made their initial appearance in their common ancestor. Hence, they would have also been present as further, closer organisms split off from the lineage; if you find an ERV common to humans and monkeys, the ancestor of chimps must have had the insertion as well. Similarly, ERVs found in New World Monkeys and chimps will usually be present in humans. ERVs found in humans and gorillas should be found in chimps. And so on.

There are, however, rare but observable genetic phenomena that can remove ERVs from the genome. We we can almost always tell when this has occured, such as identifying the characteristic remnants of a deletion mutation right in the stretch of DNA right before the ERV 'should have' occured.

Nevertheless, the more basic question of 'are there shared ERVs between these species?' is a much more stringent, rock-solid test of evolution than the specific phylogenetic relationships individual insertions indicate, which can be erroneous.

When analyzed as a statistical whole, however, ERV insertion patterns will also recapitulate phylogenies drawn from independent data like the fossil record and comparative anatomy. This is a remarkable confirmation, and totally at odds with the predictions made by the hypothesis of independent origin of species.

As you can see by now, this is the strongest support for evolution I've ever come across; a truly powerful and damning smoking gun.

3. Attempted creationist rebuttals and their drawbacks

Hypotheses proposed by creationists to account for this are woefully inadequate, although there are several worth analyzing.

*3.1: Independent Insertion*

This one entails independent insertion by the same virus affecting different species. Creationist Ashby Camp, writing at TrueOrigins (http://www.trueorigin.org/theobald1e.asp), quoted a scientific article referring to "insertion hotspots" that were the target of viral integration much more often than other spots in the genome. Although this is superficially a valid criticism to be hurled at the ERV argument, it quickly fails.

The very "hottest" spot Camp could dig up in the scientific literature was one that was 280 times more likely to be involved in a viral integration than we could expect from chance alone. It could be pointed out that this was a virus that doesn't exist in nature, but was specifically designed to facilitate gene therapy by targeting a specific part of the genome and replacing a crippled gene with a functional copy.

But let's ignore that for now, and assume Camp did not misrepresent relevant research. Just how large is this in the big picture? The human genome is 3 billion or so nucleotides long (Source (http://www.isb-sib.ch/institute/bioinformatics.htm)). The chance, then, of randomly inserting into the same section of the genome is 1 in 3 billion.

Now let's assume there are hot spots an unprecedented 1,000 times more likely to be attacked by a virus than the unique, genetically engineered one Mr. Camp was able to dig up. Divide 3 billion by 280,000, and you find the chance of an independent insertion is one in around 10714; this is an unlikely enough figure to be negligible, and it was derived from estimates orders of magnitude more liberal than the data would allow!

Additionally, this doesn't address any of the other factors involved. It doesn't explain why the same viral fingerprint would be left behind, how it would affect the one germ line cell out of millions that advances to zygote status, how that single individual would enjoy reproductive success sufficient to establish his ERVs in the population, etc.

For the reasons listed above, it's astronomically improbable. Not only would the *same exact* retroviral insertion have to occur independently at *the same exact locus* of a uniquely lucky sperm or egg cell *that survived to adulthood* and achieved enough success to establish the insertion in their respective populations, but this impossible set of coincidences would have to occur for 3, 4, even a dozen species at the same time, and for *every single ERV shared between them* to boot!

As you can see, the improbabilities keep stacking and increasing by additional orders of magnitude as more factors are introduced.

The additional fact that ERVs, when analyzed, yield [i]evolutionary patterns that reinforce the phylogenies derived from morphological, fossil and other evidence rules out the independent insertion hypothesis completely.

If independent insertion was somehow the explanation for shared viral insertions, we would expect to see numerous, extensive groups of ERVs common to chickens and humans, pigs and humans, and other creatures that share many of the same pathogens; ERVs that weren't present, on the other hand, in geographically isolated creatures closer to us in morphology and genetics, such as the apes.

*3.2: ERVs are *not* remnants of ancient viral infection*

Another attempted explanation is that the ERVs found in our genome are actually original, designed artifacts instead of viral infection fingerprints.

To be frank, this hypothesis, even on the surface, appears as ludicrous as assertions that dinosaur bones don't actually come from dinosaurs but were intentionally placed there. Science generally doesn't deal with Omphalos hypotheses for good reason, because there is no reasonable way to verify or falsify them; they throw explanatory and predictive power, much less parsimony, entirely out the window.

People who assert this for ERVs have the burden of proof in demonstrating where shared ancestry ends and intentional design begins. Are the various breeds of domestic cat different, independently created organisms? (They share ERVs that have been used to reconstruct their phylogenies). Are the various felines in general related, or seperately created? (Lions, panthers, tigers and domestic cats share ERVs).

In other words, where do the divinely faked ERVs end and the real ones, *which we can observe being incorporated into the genome in vitro*, begin? ERV insertion is a well-documented event, leaving very specific and unlikely patterns; no other process except viral infection has been documented that can create them.

Why, then, should any reasonably intelligent person consider accepting rationalizations that are unfalsifiable, unevidenced, predict no unique observations the mainstream explanation doesn't and even require numerous additional assumptions that the obvious answer doesn't?

Nevertheless, let us examine two sub-hypotheses that fall under this main heading.

3.2.1: ERVs are an important part of the immune system

Based on the fact that a few ERVs have apparently been shown to lessen the chances of some types of viral infection, some creationists have asserted that ERVs are actually an anti-viral vector native to the genome, with their similarities to actual retroviruses being coincidental and not the product of intentional deception. But this explanation also fails when all the data is considered.

In the first place, their anti-viral effects are no larger than those of some free-living viruses, so this is not an argument against their being parasitic in the past. Human herpesvirus 6 has recently been shown to suppress HIV (source (http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2001/nichd-31.htm)), for example. At most, it would provide a miniscule selection advantage for the individual carrying a particular ERV, which could help it piggyback across the population and help slightly improve the odds for one step of the process (out of many) occuring independently.

A possible explanation is that the endogenous retrovirus, which is only marginally deleterious, uses up the spaces on the cellular exterior HIV would normally dock with. This would be a textbook example of an evolutionary, jury-rigged defense mechanism, equivalent to hiring polite burglars to slowly work on your doors and windows so the violent ones couldn't get in.

Additionally, virtually all ERVs have no such immunity-boosting function; indeed, many *more* are actually implicated as the cause of some tumors (source (http://www.cancerindex.org/clinks4v.htm)); just like certain free-living viral infections including Epstein-Barr, I might add.

Moreover, you again have the problem that ERVs are distributed across the genomes of species in a pattern that mimicks common descent, *not* the expected pattern of functionally-oriented resistance to shared viral pathogens. I can safely predict that chickens and humans won't have any common anti-viral ERV that apes won't, despite the fact *they share many of the same infections* apes generally aren't afflicted by.

3.2.2: Viruses evolved from ERVs, not the other way around

Some have asserted that ERVs were actually designed elements that exogenous retroviruses came from, perhaps after the Fall. This is advocated by creationist Dr. Ian Macreadie at this AnswersInGenesis (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3985.asp) article, who states "I actually don’t believe God created viruses as separate entities, I believe they were a part of the DNA in cells".

A few things are to be noted. As this (http://www.museum.vic.gov.au/dinosaurs/sci-views.html) webpage demonstrates, this is a modern reinvention of a ancient proto-scientific view aimed at explaining the existence of regular, plain vanilla, non-molecular fossils:

"... they were owing to the actions of so-called 'plastic forces' or 'formative virtues' in the Earth... 'Plastic forces' were believed to be unspecified forces within the Earth that were continually striving to produce organic bodies. The notion that fossils were formed by these 'plastic forces', first put forward by the Arab scholar Avicenna (980-1037 AD), was an outgrowth of the Aristotelian idea of spontaneous generation. Fossils were individuals that had 'failed' at spontaneous generation, or else the 'vital essence' of living things had penetrated rocks and formed objects there which resembled living things."

We now know much more about the world, and recognize that fossils are the remnants of organisms, not their ancestors. Can we similarly argue that ERVs can't be the parents of ordinary viruses?

As it turns out, the answer is a resounding "Yes!" This creationist hypothesis is unambiguously falsified by looking at the data.

Many ERVs are merely fragments of code, which nevertheless include readily vestiges of identifiable viral surface coat proteins, which are quite obvious and expected for an exogenous retrovirus that needs to float around independently, but *utterly baffling for one that resides within* a cell.

In other words, they lack key components that allow real viruses to reproduce (as a side note, this is often, in the first place, a relic of a botched infection, one of the things that lets the cell survive in the first place).

If a sentence out of Shakespeare is inserted into an essay, one can ascertain the direction of literary borrowing from comparison of the works alone, even without the knowledge that the former wrote earlier. This is the same with ERVs and other out-of-place genetic fragments. They simply look like fragments out of the whole work, so to speak, deposited there by free-living ancestors, *not* the opposite.

To expand even further and bring in the heavy artillery, many viruses have complex, multipart mechanisms for subverting host immune defenses and injecting their DNA thru the cell membrane *that their fragmentary, cell-bound counterparts lack*.

http://www.purdue.edu/PER/images/020212.spot_rossmann_T4.jpeg" width="90" height="90 (http://www.purdue.edu/PER/images/020212.spot_rossmann_T4.jpeg" width="90" height="90)

(Source (http://www.purdue.edu/PER/020212.spot_rossmann_T4.html))

The bacteriophage T4 virus has a head, tail, baseplate and a dozen tail fibers. The baseplate serves as a "nerve center" of the virus. When the tail fibers attach to E. coli, the baseplate transmits a message to the tail, which contracts like a muscle, bringing the internal pinlike tube in contact with the outer membrane of the E. coli cell. As the tube punctures the outer and inner membranes, the virus' DNA is injected into the host cell.

Needless to say, asserting that such things could evolve from mere cellular genome fragments is a stretch, especially so if one simultaneously denies the ability of evolutionary mechanisms to generate such staggering complexity.

Finally, a customary red herring involved in any discussion of molecular evidence for evolution is cries of "but they have a FUNCTION!". While that may well be true, function (or lack of it) is generally not the criterion by which things are considered evidence for evolution, as demonstrated by the case I made above.

4. Conclusion

In summary, the facts are that:

(A) A retrovirus infects a cell and, depending on how virulent it is, can kill it. Occasionally, fragments of the virus remain but the cell survives.

(B) No two viral insertions are exactly alike; a botched integration can leave behind a tiny fragment of its DNA, large stretch of the genome, selected portions, and other variants.

(C) Viral fragments insert at fairly random locations, and have literally millions of them to choose from.

(D) Infection of a germ line cell is quite rare.

(E) That particular germ line cell with the unique viral fingerprint can, sometimes, be the lucky egg or sperm cell that gets fertilized.

(F) The individual's genes, including the ERV, can get established in the entire population of a species. This can occur through random genetic drift if it's neutral or deleterious; natural selection, on the other hand, would work to establish the very few advantageous retroviral elements in our genome.

The combined odds of each of these events happening in two independently originated species are a statistical non-event. In sheer unlikelihood, they would likely dwarf even the incorrectly calculated anti-abiogenesis calculations some creationists are fond of. And the odds become even less remote, by additional orders of magnitude, as more and more species are considered.

In this post, we've seen that ERVs are, indeed, remnants of ancient viral infection. We've also seen that no explanation *except* inheritance from a common ancestor can reasonably account for the occurence of the same viral insertion in two different organisms or species. This, in turn, leads to the inescapable, iron-clad, demonstrated-beyond-a-reasonable-doubt conclusion:

Independent origin of ERVs (and hence, independent origin of species, a.k.a. creationism) is scientifically falsified.

P.S. Before linking to http://www.trueorigin.org/theobald1e.asp , do realize that I thoroughly debunked it above.

[This message has been edited by WinAce (edited 09-12-2003).]

[This message has been edited by WinAce (edited 09-12-2003).]

Dark_Magneto
2003-09-12, 05:25
I've been trying to enlighten individuals about ERV's as of late, but the first thing I got was a link to Camp's refuted critique of Theobald, which you thouroughly dismember.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 09-12-2003).]

Quantized
2003-09-12, 22:48
Reading this post made me happy. The fact that no creationists responded and are meekly silent makes me even happier.

Armed&Angry
2003-09-12, 22:49
That is kinda cool, isn't it?

Faithless
2003-09-12, 23:15
The theory of evolution is what it says, a theory. I have no problems with the theory of micro evolution but with the theory of macro evolution i have.

I don't think i fall in any particular camp on this but i felt that a counterpoint would be nice.

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/Darwinism.1.html

Kikey_Kikeowitz
2003-09-12, 23:23
Interesting theory, indeed.

I enjoyed it.

Kikey_Kikeowitz
2003-09-12, 23:25
quote:Originally posted by Quantized:

Reading this post made me happy. The fact that no creationists responded and are meekly silent makes me even happier.

'meekly silent,' nay. For some of us 'creationists' actually believe evolution to be true, and consider it a God-crafted mechanism.

Just like EVERYTHING in the universe.

Dark_Magneto
2003-09-13, 10:35
Every single forum I have seen ERV's in has ultimately had the creationists just stop responding in it after they use links to websites with flawed arguments as their arguments and the arguments get thouroughly debunked.

ERV's are logically unassailable evidence for evolution. I have yet to see 1 decent argument put forth against it that didn't consist of errors/fallacies/misconceptions.

quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

'meekly silent,' nay. For some of us 'creationists' actually believe evolution to be true, and consider it a God-crafted mechanism.

Just like EVERYTHING in the universe.



How do you distinguish a non-god crafted mechanism if you automatically insist that everything is godcrafted?

There's no basis for comparison whatsoever.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 09-13-2003).]

Armed&Angry
2003-09-13, 14:04
I'd argue with Kikey, but after arguing with brats like Spirit and Tyrant, I'm just happy to know a theist who isn't a complete dick. Dude, if you're ever in Iowa City, I owe you a whiskey sour.

WinAce
2003-09-13, 19:01
quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

Interesting theory, indeed.

I enjoyed it.

Thanks. It's really quite amazing what the genome can reveal about the history of various species.

quote:Originally posted by Faithless:

The theory of evolution is what it says, a theory.

Careful with that use of scientific terms, or a casual reader might infer that you consider 'Germ Theory' a weak concept.

quote:I have no problems with the theory of micro evolution but with the theory of macro evolution i have.

In the scientific sense, both have been directly observed. 'Micro' evolution is change within a species, and 'Macro' evolution is change across species. It would be more appropriate to state you have problems with the idea of common descent with modification, which is what creationists usually mean when referring to 'macroevolution'.

Aside from that, what, in particular, about it do you find unbelieveable, especially given evidence such as the above (that leaves creationists gasping for air)? http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:I don't think i fall in any particular camp on this but i felt that a counterpoint would be nice.

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/Darwinism.1.html

Egad. The errors and misrepresentations alone would take a medium-sized volume to refute. But since this is a topic about ERVs, why bother unless you find any particular point remotely convincing.

[This message has been edited by WinAce (edited 09-13-2003).]

Faithless
2003-09-13, 19:55
I bothered because the post's headline is "Endogenous Retroviral Insertions Demonstrate Evolution Beyond a Reasonable Doubt".

That all evolution has been proved, that it is gospel and that everyone better be singing from the same hymn sheet; while what was shown was some evidence towards micro evolution.

Calling everyone that doesn’t immediately accept it ‘creationist’ doesn’t exactly lead to an open debate and seems to have parallels with a church denouncing outsiders.

I have no problem with small scale superficial evolution within one species type.

My problem with the theory of evolution is that it has gaps and requires faith in the theory rather than explanations for these gaps. For an example: where humans came from.

With humans the solution given was that gradual evolution produced humans from monkeys, but then the problem of showing proof such as fossils leading to "missing links".

Dark_Magneto
2003-09-13, 22:21
What I never really got is how people could admit to some evolution and not others.

Evolution is evolution, folks. There aren't 2 different types of it, only one ongoing process.

It's like, they admit that 1+1+1+1+1+1 etc. can go to 70, 80, and even all the way up to 99 (changes in allele frequency), but for some reason they posit this "magic barrier" that stops it from ever reaching 100 (isolation of new species).

Doofnoil2
2003-09-13, 22:42
I really don't see how evolution being proven as "fact" relates to creationism being proven as "fiction". They go hand in hand, show me an animal with a mechanical engineering degree and I'll wholeheartedly refute the idea that God created humans seperate from other species. it doesn't matter how long it took either...does it?

WinAce
2003-09-14, 02:00
quote:Originally posted by Faithless:

That all evolution has been proved, that it is gospel and that everyone better be singing from the same hymn sheet; while what was shown was some evidence towards micro evolution.

Umm, right. You did read the thread, I assume? If you had, you would have realized this is evidence of common descent, not genetic change within a species. Moreover, it's evidence at least as conclusive in demonstrating chimp/human common ancestry as stellar parallax demonstrated heliocentricism.

quote:Calling everyone that doesn’t immediately accept it ‘creationist’ doesn’t exactly lead to an open debate and seems to have parallels with a church denouncing outsiders.

I don't see why you would object here. 'Creationism' is the term which accurately describes non-evolutionary hypotheses, where species originate independently. Hence, any evidence that establishes species are actually related simultaneously falsifies it.

quote:I have no problem with small scale superficial evolution within one species type.

The evidence I posted quite thoroughly demonstrates that humans and chimps are merely variation in one 'species type' http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:My problem with the theory of evolution is that it has gaps and requires faith in the theory rather than explanations for these gaps.

Nice rhetorical equivocation of the various definitions of 'faith' there.

quote:With humans the solution given was that gradual evolution produced humans from monkeys, but then the problem of showing proof such as fossils leading to "missing links".

1. Humans didn't come from modern monkeys, although we share a common ancestor with them.

2. The hominid fossil record is remarkably complete, and it shows a nice linear progression of species from more ape-like to more human-like. In the middle, the line between ape and human is blurred so well that even creationists can't agree on which fossil belongs to which group.

But this topic is about a different type of evidence, which is at least as effective as fossils--and, in fact, much more conclusive at demonstrating shared ancestry. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Doofnoil2
2003-09-14, 02:58
do they have pictures of these fossils on the web?

WinAce
2003-09-14, 04:19
Yes, check out TalkOrigins (http://talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/) and the links they recommend.

This (http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates_ex3) page lists photographs of the major hominid skulls that are currently known. Although this won't come out right because the Totse board software makes all pictures the same tiny size, here goes anyway:

http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/images/hominids2.jpg" width="90" height="90 (http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/images/hominids2.jpg" width="90" height="90)

Go there for a better look. The first is a modern chimp. The last is a modern human. In-between are the major finds, in chronological order.

The middle fossils blur the line between ape and human. The comparison of creationist opinions (http://talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/compare.html) in particular is eye-opening. Here are people adamant that these fossils are just apes or just humans, but they can't consistently tell which fossil belongs to which group. No such confusion exists for modern skulls, however, which can be confidently pegged by a beginning paleontology student.

If that doesn't tell you something about their transitional status, nothing will.

[This message has been edited by WinAce (edited 09-14-2003).]

Doofnoil2
2003-09-14, 07:57
that's interesting stuff...

Kikey_Kikeowitz
2003-09-14, 09:57
quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

How do you distinguish a non-god crafted mechanism if you automatically insist that everything is godcrafted?

There's no basis for comparison whatsoever.



You can't.

That is, you can't, because therein lies my theory and belief.

There is no basis for comparison, because everything is a god-crafted mechanism.

Just an idea of mine.

Dark_Magneto
2003-09-14, 12:00
So there is no way to find out if you are wrong or not, I take it.

Kikey_Kikeowitz
2003-09-14, 12:02
quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

So there is no way to find out if you are wrong or not, I take it.

I suppose I'll find out after I die.

If I cease to exist, I was wrong.

jester461
2003-09-15, 17:54
Hey Winace, you keep posting this same tired agruement all over this CBB, if you feel you have found the Evidence that finally proves evolution why dont you come and talk with me and the other professionals, evolutionist and creationists, at this forum, http://www.evcforum.net/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000220-5.html. Then everyone else that also reads this can come and see how many holes are in your arguement. If you are such an expert, why dont you come talk with the professionals?

Mota Boy
2003-09-15, 20:49
quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

I suppose I'll find out after I die.

If I cease to exist, I was wrong.

Yeah, and I wanna be there to hear you say it!

Dark_Magneto
2003-09-15, 23:06
You in all likelihood don't actually find out if you were wrong or not.

Lets assume there is an afterlife in which you retain your original memories that were on your brain. That's the only way you're going to know if you were right or not, because if you get reincarnated with a mind-wipe, or you just cease to exist, then you never get the oppurtunity to reflect on your incorrectness.

Kikey_Kikeowitz
2003-09-15, 23:11
I know. It's a bitch, isn't it?

That bastard YHWH with his sick sense of humor.

WinAce
2003-09-15, 23:41
quote:Originally posted by jester461:

Hey Winace, you keep posting this same tired agruement all over this CBB

Not all over this board in particular, but the 5 or so I posted it on resulted in nary but a peep from the creationists.

quote:if you feel you have found the Evidence that finally proves evolution

No such evidence has been needed since the 19th century. The double-nested hierarchy of life alone demonstrates it shares a relationship that creationism says doesn't exist.

To put it simply, 'proving' evolution just isn't any more a high priority in science than proving heliocentricism.

Both have been done beyond reasonable doubt, and unreasonable doubt could deny any evidence that was ever found, no matter how overwhelming (case in point: the International Flat Earth Society (http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htm)).

quote:why dont you come and talk with me and the other professionals, evolutionist and creationists, at this forum

Fine, I'll go over there and correct your misconceptions once again. You miscopied the link though, that topic is about mutations. The one you started is this one (http://www.evcforum.net/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000312.html).

Calling your opponent an idiot in the same breath as making statements about 'unproven' scientific theories does kinda lower your credibility, though.

quote:Then everyone else that also reads this can come and see how many holes are in your arguement.

Oh, the irony.

quote:If you are such an expert, why dont you come talk with the professionals?

I have. On numerous occasions. Here's a few links to former topics about ERVs I've been involved in:

<LI>TheologyWeb (http://theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3444) ('Socrates' is creationist Dr. Jonathan Sarfati of AnswersInGenesis, who gets 0wned about halfway through)

<LI>Theology Forums (http://www.theologyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5696) (oddly enough, someone who writes for True.Origins, a creationist website, and replies to pretty much everything in the forum, didn't even reply in this topic)

<LI>CreationTalk (http://www.creationtalk.com/message-board-forum/viewtopic.php?t=288&highlight=endogenous)

<LI>ChristianForums (http://www.christianforums.com/t56404)

<LI>BlizzForums (http://www.blizzforums.com/showthread.php?p=479180)

Quite frankly, I'm running out of places to defend my essay on. Pretty soon, I'm going to conclude that the only answer creationists have for this data is pretending it doesn't exist and waiting for the topic to drop off the first page of the forum.

[This message has been edited by WinAce (edited 09-15-2003).]

Dark_Magneto
2003-09-16, 00:26
It's ownage across the baord, man. It appears as if it is irrefuteable because it only strengthens other aspects of evolution such as the phylogenic tree, and the "random chance" factor of ERV's being the same fignerprint at the same place is not even an issue.

It's got a 1 in 3 billion chance of being in the same place alone, and that doesn't even factor in the chance of the genetic fingerprint being exactly the same, so there's no way in hell anyone could cry probability. You'd sooner see a plant give birth to an animal than you would a random process produce an exact duplicate of an ERV in the same location.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 09-16-2003).]

Unknown-Target
2003-09-17, 11:22
Hi all, I'm new here. Nice post winace.

Anyway, since this topic's on phylogeny, and I need help on intron evolution, its seems as if winace is a good person to ask http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

In the sept 2 issue of current biology, &lt;A HREF="http://www.current-biology.com/content/article/abstract?uid=PIIS096098220300558X"&gt;abstract here&lt;/A&gt; (ah shucks, how do I get HTML on??), compares the sequences of different eukaryotic genomes such as malaria, 2 types of yeast, Arabidopsis, fruit flies, worms and humans. Anyway, I can't seem to think of a possible for reason for the results, or a possible reason why introns should not be used in constructing trees.

quote:The number of conserved introns did not drop monotonically with the increase of the evolutionary distance between the compared organisms. On the contrary, human genes shared the greatest number of introns not with any of the three animals but with the plant Arabidopsis; in the conserved regions (the more accurate results given the uncertainties in alignment in other parts of genes), 24% of the analyzed human introns were shared with Arabidopsis (27% of the Arabidopsis introns) compared to 12%–17% of the introns shared by humans with the fly, mosquito, and the worm (Table 2). The difference becomes even more dramatic when the numbers of introns conserved in Arabidopsis and each of the three animal species are compared: approximately three times more plant introns have a counterpart in humans than in the fly or the worm (Table 2). Although S. pombe [yeast] and Plasmodium [malaria] have few introns compared to plants or animals, the same asymmetry was observed for these organisms: the numbers of introns shared with Arabidopsis and humans are close and are 2–3 times greater than the number of introns shared with the insects or the worm (Table 2).

These results, using Dolly parsimony resulted in a tree with humans clustered with plants, and yeast with malaria.

In fact, the very conservation of introns supports the possibility that introns are functionally important.

Anyway, if anybody could come up with an explanation, it'd be much appreciated. Thanks!

[This message has been edited by Unknown-Target (edited 09-17-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Unknown-Target (edited 09-17-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Unknown-Target (edited 09-17-2003).]

Unknown-Target
2003-09-18, 08:00
Interestingly, such "non-randomness" could possibly be used to support Peter Borger's GUToB (General and universal theory of Biology) which holds that organisms are geared with multipurpose genomes (MPG) and can change within a limited range through non-random mutations (NRM). An interesting idea, and the evidence for and against which depends on which sequences looked at in the DNA. He posits the following predictions from his theory (quoted from http://www.evcforum.net/ubb/Forum22/HTML/000011.html)

quote:Therefore, I also introduced and provided scientific evidence for non-random mutations (http://www.evcforum.net/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000053.html). The non-random mutations should be conceived as non-random with respect to nucleotide and position. At present they should not be conceived as deliberately introduced as a response to environmental change, since that cannot be scientifically proven (although such directed mutations have been found in Cone snails). NRM do have important implications for common descent, as explained in # 184 in ‘molecular genetic evidence against random mutation’ and here: http://www.evcforum.net/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000152.html).

In conjunction with non-random mutation the idea of a multipurpose genome are able to explain all biological phenomena, including genetic redundancies and phylogenetics.

lol... Peter Borger is (was?) a famous character at www.evcforum.net, (http://www.evcforum.net,) and although considered a misfit does have some interesting ideas.

For more information on his GUToB, refer to the following sites (cant get links to work!)

http://www.evcforum.net/ubb/Forum21/HTML/000023.html http://www.evcforum.net/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000172.html http://www.iscid.org/boards/ubb-get_topic-f-6-t-000345-p-9.html