I'm curious as to why so many people here hate Christianity.

I'm looking for genuine reasons, concerning the actual PHILOSOPHY behind it. Please don't mention the Crusades or pedophile priests. I'm curious as to why people don't like the foundations of the religion itself.

There is no evidence for it.

And, though asked it not be mentioned, the fact that the foundations of the religion have tended to lead towards violence and coercion.

edit: Minor semantic change

[This message has been edited by Craftian (edited 09-15-2003).]

So it's purely an anti-religion thing, not just Christianity?

Consider Christianity as a philosophy instead of a religion. What of it then?

The only thing I have against Christianity is Paul. Paul perverted the teachings of the Christ(peace be upon him). Christianity is pretty much an invention of Paul, as Jesus(pbuh) never thought of his followers as a different religion. He more or less percieved them to be 'progressive jews' for lack of a better term. So, true followers of Christ(pbuh) are good people and such, but beware of the followers of Paul.

[This message has been edited by Wings Of Azrael (edited 09-15-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

There is no evidence for it.

And, though asked it not be mentioned, the fact that the foundations of the religion have tended to lead towards violence and coercion.

edit: Minor semantic change

[This message has been edited by Craftian (edited 09-15-2003).]

Certainly there is evidence that some aspects of Christianity is true. And evidence they are not. In the end you pick what you want to believe. As for violence and coercion, there would be just as much in the world without religion, if not more.



[This message has been edited by Synthetic Darkness (edited 09-15-2003).]

Christianity is what caused(s) most of todays world problem. i mean its just the Christian foundation is corrupted. as a philosical/religion point of vew it is also messed up. You see they a hypocrits. also the bibble is too old and only about 10% of the stories in it have some truth to them. If there is any truth wut so ever.

most things wrong in culture today can be traced directly back to christianity so w/e. the only good thing that came from christianity was our countries freedom (revolution was a war not only because of taxes but for religious freedom btw for all u people who didnt know)

I think only Wings of Azrael adequately answered my question.

I'm talking about the principles behind Christianity, not a blanket religious statement.

Christians scare me. Part of the way they view the world is defined through a millennia-old half-scientific half-philosophic text. Hell, not even the text, but various other people's interpretation of that text, which can turn out to mean any one of 400,000 different things. Christ said some awesome stuff and had some incredibly powerful ideas, but most Christians don't follow him. Jeez boiled all the rules of Xianity down to "Love me", "Love thyself" and "Love thy neighbor". However, now we're back to the Old Testament. Love thy neighbor - unless he's gay or has a deviant lifestyle. Love thyself - which means you shouldn't get tattoos, etc. All this shitty rules and regulations have reappeared, stronger than ever, in the form of control by the church.

To me, that makes these people slightly irrational. Now, some of my best friends believe deep in their hearts that I'm going to suffer in Hell for all eternity, but they're still great guys. It's people that use the Bible to define their life that really freak me out. I think Christianity was a really great idea, but that it's been twisted by organized religion, which has been used to control people.

Something like that.

I have no issues per se with the 10 commandments, although most of the other rules set down in the bible grate on my nerves. I also can't believe in moderating my behavior in hopes for a better "afterlife," or any of that jazz.

I don't believe in worshipping something that holds imaginary absolute power. I've seen no evidence that the Christan god is all merciful, if he will banish you to eternal horror for not obeying arbitrary rules. Also, what kind of omniscience allows for free will? If He knows and controls what will happen, it renders all existence to something absolutely without value. Life would be a couple of gears turning on someones whim, but achieving nothing.

That's where I stand.

It encourages a "holier than thou" attitude, and it has no tolerance for any other religions, even ones that are similar derivatives.

I view Christianity as the greatest of religions, perhaps supplanted only by Judaism. It's a load of hokum, sure, but it's done a lot for the world.

quote:Originally posted by noraa_boy

It encourages a "holier than thou" attitude, and it has no tolerance for any other religions, even ones that are similar derivatives.

I see your point, but don't all religions that proclaim to hold Truth require it to be exclusive?

quote:Love thyself - which means you shouldn't get tattoos, etc.

I think that only refers to pagan symbols.

quote:Now, some of my best friends believe deep in their hearts that I'm going to suffer in Hell for all eternity, but they're still great guys.

Um... Hahaha

quote:It's people that use the Bible to define their life that really freak me out. I think Christianity was a really great idea, but that it's been twisted by organized religion, which has been used to control people.

Something like that.

So, in other words, you'd agree with it if it just stayed as a philosophy?

I'm trying my best not to imply any "flaming"; I'm just curious.

ED: Wrong quote haha

[This message has been edited by Tyrant (edited 09-15-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

So, in other words, you'd agree with it if it just stayed as a philosophy?

Yeah, if you viewed it more as a personal moral code rather than a set of guidelines by which you live your life and try to make others live their lives. "I became a doctor, I guess it was God's will for me to help people" - good. "I try to convert the atheists first, then the muslims and buddhists, then the Jews." - bad. And a friend of mine actually said that last thing to me... before he converted to Baha'i (he still hasn't told his parents).

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

I think that only refers to pagan symbols.

You may think that, but several other people do not. Someone I know went to go get a Jesus-fish tattoo and the tattoo artist said "You know this goes against your beliefs, right?" Also, a South Carolinian lawmaker tried to ban (or worked to uphold the ban, I can't remember) on tattoos in the state. His reasoning? "If God wanted people to have tattoos, he would have written them on us Himself."

1) They're called birthmarks, you thundering moron!

2) If God wanted us to eat cooked food he would have installed grills in the back of our throats.

I've heard it explained that "loving yourself" means that you'd never do anything to harm yourself... such as get tattoos. Or do drugs. But does that mean it also includes junk food? Stuff like that - arbitrary rules are what destroys religions.

I honestly believe that Christianity is a philosophy, or at least it started out that way. It's the church that's turned it into a way of life, assuming that I'm not the only person that sees a distinction between those two concepts. I think Buddhism and Baha'i are good examples of religions that work well as philosophies. Fanatical Christians and Muslims and Hindus have been known to kill those that disagree with them. Fanatical Buddhists have been known to kill themselves (self-immolation) in protest. They never got so wrapped up in some small piece of their religion that they ignored one of it's basic tenets (and for the love of God, please, no one tell me that a basic Muslim tenet is to kill infidels).

And no flaming taken.

1. They're close minded. They believe their way is the right way to live and if you do not, you are going to hell. There is no way around this, if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and ignore the other Gods, you go to hell, forever.

Because of this, they will avoid listening to other beliefs or accepting that their way of life just MIGHT be wrong. This threatens their religion, so while they pretend to be interested in religions beyond their own, they're still stuck to it, still close minded deep inside.

2. It is believed by some that our thought patterns and body movements are a result of electrical impulses in our brain. Everything we do and what we say is determined by nature. Action/Reaction. Christianity says that you are a sinner and makes it seem like it's your fault that you are designed this way, and that you must spend your life trying to make up for existing as God created you.

3. There is no "the devil" or "satan". It's all a fucking lie.

4. "God is Merciful" yet you spend an eternity in hell for following nature and the path in life that is your destiny. Anyone who would like to reword this to make going to hell seem merciful, be my fucking guest.

5. Paganism. What's up with the pagan-bashing. I hear the word pagan spoken in our culture today constantly with an angered tone of voice. From what I know, the pagans practiced astral projection. Astral projection can bring you to a better understanding of why things are the way they are in the world, and can eliminate fear if you want it to. It is freedom, it is beauty, it is being closer to God. There is absolutely no reason it is bad, yet every time I hear about paganism from a christian viewpoint, I hear nothing good of it.

6. Because the bible is too old to be trusted. Plus, there is no telling how many other scriptures of other religions were destroyed by the murderous christians in our history. People take the bible as if it were written by every single culture in the world, when the truth is it was written by people who could only percieve what technology at the time allowed them to percieve from their little corner of the earth.

7. There are holes and questions unanswered in Christianity. Do people in other countries who never heard of christianity and practice paganism and are nice people... do they go to hell? How about babies? Abortions? Kids who don't understand christianity and are killed? What if you sin right before you die even if you lived a life of being a good christian, does that mean you go to hell? Is one sin greater than another? If not, then raping a kid is as bad as stealing an apple from the supermarket?

There are things christianity cannot justify as good or bad (which is the problem with man in the first place) so the christians of today, confused and self-righteous, are making up their own new rules. I know you said stick to the main philosophy of christianity, and I am: It is outdated, full of holes and lies, and gives way to mass confusion. It's inevitable.

8. Christians limit their lives and don't do many things they truly want to do from confusion or fear of going to hell, in turn limiting their development and experiences.

9. Ego. Christians believe that some of their close family/friends/relatives are going to hell, but they are not because they claim to be christian. No matter WHAT you say, it inevitably gives their ego a boost. According to them, they are living as the Lord wants them to live. By doing this they deep down believe they are doing good, and many others who do not do it are evil, this sets classes in their head of being good and evil, higher and lower. You can see it in their eyes. Even if theyre your great friends, you can sense the subtle pity that's in their heads at all times.

Christianity spawns atheists. It drives people away from it's own message. Portraying an all-powerful all-loving being from a HUMAN PERSPECTIVE as a judgemental jealous sexist homophobic asshole drives people away from believing in it completely. If they hear the word "God" they immediately relate that thought to the contradictory bible (with thanks to history for making it so dominant in our country).

Just a rant, may have not made much sense, and I'm almost 95% sure some christian will quote every point I made and create a perfect counterargument making me look wrong... and I could do the same, for eternity until it ends up being a 10 page long "Youre contradicting what you said before and being hypocritical)

Ah, human logic and its many many flaws.

quote:Originally posted by Fuck:

5. Paganism. What's up with the pagan-bashing. I hear the word pagan spoken in our culture today constantly with an angered tone of voice. From what I know, the pagans practiced astral projection. Astral projection can bring you to a better understanding of why things are the way they are in the world, and can eliminate fear if you want it to. It is freedom, it is beauty, it is being closer to God. There is absolutely no reason it is bad, yet every time I hear about paganism from a christian viewpoint, I hear nothing good of it.

Pagans didn't practice Astral Projection. They ate some funny mushrooms and their brains had a hallucinogenic reaction. Nothing more.

Well I can tell you why I say pagan with an angered tone of voice...

1 : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)

2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person

That is enough reason for me.

quote:Originally posted by My-Excuse:

Christianity is what caused(s) most of todays world problem. i mean its just the Christian foundation is corrupted. as a philosical/religion point of vew it is also messed up. You see they a hypocrits. also the bibble is too old and only about 10% of the stories in it have some truth to them. If there is any truth wut so ever.

most things wrong in culture today can be traced directly back to christianity so w/e. the only good thing that came from christianity was our countries freedom (revolution was a war not only because of taxes but for religious freedom btw for all u people who didnt know)

Do you car to expound upon ANY of this??

Simple facts: Catholicism ?‚ Christianity.

Catholicism the largest BY FAR.

I agree with WINGS, but I pose this question is Hinduism a pagan religion? they have many avatars yet all paths lead to one. Brahman.

quote:Originally posted by Wings Of Azrael:



2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person

I know plenty of religious people who "delight in sensual pleasures and material goods" and plenty of "irrligious" people who do not.

Are you saying there's something wrong with having fun, or do you just hate pagans because they're not like you?

It would be more tolerable as a philosophy if it gave up its mythic trappings. If you want to think about life, fine, just don't try to get anyone to believe there's a magical man in the sky.

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

It would be more tolerable as a philosophy if it gave up its mythic trappings. If you want to think about life, fine, just don't try to get anyone to believe there's a magical man in the sky.

Doesn't sound any more illogical than everything just always existing.

See, that's why I really like philosophy. It doesn't try to beat you into some artificial conformity or force-feed you bullshit and say your eternal fate rests upon whether you swallow the load or not.

Most pagans indulge in earthly desires without care for consequences, thus endangering other peoples. Plus, it is not in my ability to comprehend one who believes in mulitple gods or associates partners with God. So yeah, there is angry tone when I mention pagans...but not because they are not 'like me'.

quote:Originally posted by Wings Of Azrael:

Well I can tell you why I say pagan with an angered tone of voice...

1 : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)

2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person

That is enough reason for me.

...

Most pagans indulge in earthly desires without care for consequences, thus endangering other peoples. Plus, it is not in my ability to comprehend one who believes in multiple gods or associates partners with God. So yeah, there is angry tone when I mention pagans...but not because they are not 'like me'.

It is a polytheistic religion, that's true. However, I don't think many pagans, or "Heathens", indulge in sensual pleasures and material goods, nor are they irreligious or hedonistic. I think LaVeyan Satanism fits that description more easily than paganism. While it's true that pagans celebrate fertility, they don't indulge irresponsibly. Rather, the intelligent ones don't. =)

Paganism, to the best of my knowledge, is a very super/naturalistic religion. I believe pagans frown upon material luxury.

quote:Originally posted by Wings Of Azrael:

Well I can tell you why I say pagan with an angered tone of voice...

1 : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)

2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person

That is enough reason for me.



thats rather unreasonable. the term pagan itself is a misconception in its own right. some of these so called "pagans" are the kindest people I know. They are also very spiritual people, not in your sense of course but they do excercise a form of it nonetheless.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

I'm curious as to why so many people here hate Christianity.

I'm looking for genuine reasons, concerning the actual PHILOSOPHY behind it. Please don't mention the Crusades or pedophile priests. I'm curious as to why people don't like the foundations of the religion itself.

I will not go over the particulars for or against christianity as it has already been given out by the other posters. il just give some of my insight on christianity.

The beautiful thing about christianity is its basic tenet..."love your neighbor as you would yourself." there is no ifs or buts there, no "except if he is a homosexual, jewish..." well you get the picture. no ifs and buts. Well there are a number of christians who forget that tenet perhaps there lies the hypocrisy in which others despise in such christians.

I suppose people hate/dislike/mistrust christianity due to the following reasons:

1. uncompromising stands regarding certain issues already mentioned by other posters

2. intolerance with other beliefs/ religions/ philosophies

3. crusades (sori to mention this)

4. irrational behavior and religious zealotry

5. hypocrisy of church clergy and leaders of various churches (not all of course, just in regards to say sexual orientation, sexual relations, fathering children, amassing of wealth...the whole slew of controversies)

6.the above mentioned holier than thou attitude.

7. for a religion extolling love, compassion, etc. they sure know how to show it to other people. (various incidents in history)

god testing people to see who is loyal to him, and them give them a prize if they are? No thanks...I dont want to be part of this 'game'. If I burn in hell for not wanting to participate in this ego-fest of gods so be it. It's like some sort of idiotic Diety-power trip "Existence Survivor". No thanks. The idea of heaven doesnt appeal to me, and it seems like I am one of the 'few' that are destined to reject 'gods love'..so how do I have free will?

quote:Originally posted by redemption:

The idea of heaven doesnt appeal to me, and it seems like I am one of the 'few' that are destined to reject 'gods love'..so how do I have free will?

Isn't rejecting God's love your decision?

quote:Originally posted by BlueEagle:

1. uncompromising stands regarding certain issues already mentioned by other posters

2. intolerance with other beliefs/ religions/ philosophies

3. crusades (sori to mention this)

4. irrational behavior and religious zealotry

5. hypocrisy of church clergy and leaders of various churches (not all of course, just in regards to say sexual orientation, sexual relations, fathering children, amassing of wealth...the whole slew of controversies)

6.the above mentioned holier than thou attitude.

7. for a religion extolling love, compassion, etc. they sure know how to show it to other people. (various incidents in history)



1) Don't generalize. Some sects are quite liberal.

2) Christianity, compared to some religions, is quite tolerant. They tell you to hate the sin, but at the same time, love the sinner.

3) You should be sorry. A bunch of knights go and establish a tiny kingdom in the Holy Land for a hundred years, and it's an eternal tragedy. When an army of fanatics sweeps out of the Arabian desert and swallows up two thirds of Christendom, and retains that territory to this day, nobody seems to care. Pope John Paul even apologized for canonizing a man who fought the Muslims at Vienna. How dare he defend his homeland!

4) Could be said of any religion. Why don't more people hate all religions, then? Hell, even Buddhism had its martial arts monks.

Ugh, I grow weary of this. Read a book, goddammit.

i believe Fuck said it all best. he is right on many aspects of christianity.

Only like two people have voiced actual philosophical disagreements, and not contingent bullshit of history that is not at all unique to Christianity, or even monotheism.



My distaste for it is the inherent humanism in its interpretation. At least in modern christianity, god is merely the "son of man," who suffers for our benefit as though the High needs the Low.

The doctrine of man as a helpless lamb with a creaturely dependence on another force that, by some contradiction, exists relative to man, doesnt sit well with me. The idea that ascension and affirmation are heresy seperated from god leads to complexes and a civilization of men fit more to kneel and crawl and beg than fight and see and conquer.

Then of course there is the "Universal" character of it, that says that all are equally worthy (worthless actually) before god, if one does something as empty and plastic as accept Jesus.

However, I believe ancient christianity had a different character, and had some beliefs more in line with properly aligned Traditions. Christ as both a King and Priest, for example, is something in line with ancient philosophy, but later neglected and renounced by a solely priest caste.

Ancient Christianity was, if anything, MORE based on love and kindness than the modern version. I suspect you're merely assuming the grass is greener on the other side of 2000 years of papacy.

WTF?!?!?!? Ok, I'm A pagan/Hippie(I don't smoke pot, though, it fucks you up) And I am just pissed at what people are saying about us! I mean, Okay, fisrt off, all a pagan means is that they believe in more than one god. I'm Duotheistic; I beleive in a God and Goddess. Pagans Do practice Astral Projection; To the uninformed, They do not "Eat a funny mushroom and have a hallucinogenic reaction" In fact, most forms of astral projection don't even include any kind of ingestion of foreign substances! Wiccans are not evil; They are not satanists. Satanists are satanists. Wiccans just Do their thing. And to other wiccans reading this and thinking "Wtf!" I'm just tired and cranky.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Isn't rejecting God's love your decision?

I was told by a christain the other day, after discussing some things, that there are those that are destined to reject god's love no matter what. So then god punishes those anyway? He could be wrong or whatever, I was just wondering, why allow them to exist if they have no choice but to reject god's love? It doesnt pose a purpose...it's just fuel for the fire, as the case may be..

Why would you think evil serves no purpose?

True. Evil provides a contrast and a test to the good. Only amongst cowards are the courageous truly seen.

Redemption, your Christian friend probably believed in Calvinistic predetermination - that everyone's spiritual fate was decided long before they were born.

According to Christianity, God is omnipotent and atemporal. Therefore, in my opinion, it wouldn't make any difference if he achieved the souls instantaneously or over time.

Evil isnt necessary for good, in my opinion anyway. I just wanted to know why he thinks Evil doesnt have a purpose. I think Evil is a seperate purpose in itself, its own principle that exists on its own merit and power and motivation, with or without good.

Of course I dont really believe in Good and Evil in that respect. Just for the sake of argument.

quote:Originally posted by Iandefor:

WTF?!?!?!? Ok, I'm A pagan/Hippie(I don't smoke pot, though, it fucks you up) And I am just pissed at what people are saying about us! I mean, Okay, fisrt off, all a pagan means is that they believe in more than one god. I'm Duotheistic; I beleive in a God and Goddess. Pagans Do practice Astral Projection; To the uninformed, They do not "Eat a funny mushroom and have a hallucinogenic reaction" In fact, most forms of astral projection don't even include any kind of ingestion of foreign substances! Wiccans are not evil; They are not satanists. Satanists are satanists. Wiccans just Do their thing. And to other wiccans reading this and thinking "Wtf!" I'm just tired and cranky.

You forgot "stupid." For the record, I never called you a satanist. Secondly, regardless of whether or not you ingest substances, you're just altering your brain state, whether through drugs or mental conditioning. Your soul isn't leaving your goddamn body, you thundering moron.

religion: the one topic we can't ever hope to stop discussing.

my problem with christianity - as well as most other religions i know of - is tolerance. "we are right, everyone else is wrong". thats bull*hit, and reason enough for me not to adhere. buddhism is the only religion known to me which in it's own doctrine spreads acceptance and tolerance of other religion AND of other points of view in general. that is my understanding of a secure haven.

and that's my two cents.

EDIT: orthographical corrections

[This message has been edited by phex (edited 09-19-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Redemption, your Christian friend probably believed in Calvinistic predetermination - that everyone's spiritual fate was decided long before they were born.

According to Christianity, God is omnipotent and atemporal. Therefore, in my opinion, it wouldn't make any difference if he achieved the souls instantaneously or over time.

Oh, cool, thanks a lot for clearing that up http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)...Makes it all the more interesting, and the plot thickens!

No one here has yet had my point of view on christianity, so here it is. "love your neighbor as you would yourself" is the second principle, the first is love thy god. That's where the whole idea of being a christian, therfore believing in christ comes from.

Although I said that, the first should not effect this point I will make. Thou shalt not judge, that's what I fully agree with, if you do not judge then you will not discriminate to the slightest.

Most christians and the church equate money and judgement with religion, that's why it's blown up in there face. If there was no judging or money passed in the church, would there be any discrimination against pagans, fags or satanists?

If you do believe in a god, how can you tell others what he expects, do you have a phone line?

If you are born into a hindu family and die at ten, do you really think god will send you to hell?

How can one man say what god thinks or means, there is no one man that can truely state who or what he is. God is different for every single person on earth.

Whos to say christ didn't show himself to the buddhists with a different face to teach what appears to be a similar philosophy, as to most religions out there.

The most important thing I will say is this, if you are religious. Find your religion on your own as only then will you know what your religion is and if you do find your religion, do not try to force it upon anyone else.



BTW, whoever it was who said that astral projection does not leave your body, research the stargate program. Before you call it a paranoid conspiracy, send away to the cia and they will send you documents on it.

[This message has been edited by Syko (edited 09-19-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Spirit of '22:

Evil isnt necessary for good, in my opinion anyway. I just wanted to know why he thinks Evil doesnt have a purpose. I think Evil is a seperate purpose in itself, its own principle that exists on its own merit and power and motivation, with or without good.

Of course I dont really believe in Good and Evil in that respect. Just for the sake of argument.

... I think I will start another post on this subject.

quote:Originally posted by Syko:

No one here has yet had my point of view on christianity, so here it is. "love your neighbor as you would yourself" is the second principle, the first is love thy god. That's where the whole idea of being a christian, therfore believing in christ comes from.

Although I said that, the first should not effect this point I will make. Thou shalt not judge, that's what I fully agree with, if you do not judge then you will not discriminate to the slightest.

Most christians and the church equate money and judgement with religion, that's why it's blown up in there face. If there was no judging or money passed in the church, would there be any discrimination against pagans, fags or satanists?

If you do believe in a god, how can you tell others what he expects, do you have a phone line?

If you are born into a hindu family and die at ten, do you really think god will send you to hell?

How can one man say what god thinks or means, there is no one man that can truely state who or what he is. God is different for every single person on earth.

Whos to say christ didn't show himself to the buddhists with a different face to teach what appears to be a similar philosophy, as to most religions out there.

The most important thing I will say is this, if you are religious. Find your religion on your own as only then will you know what your religion is and if you do find your religion, do not try to force it upon anyone else.



BTW, whoever it was who said that astral projection does not leave your body, research the stargate program. Before you call it a paranoid conspiracy, send away to the cia and they will send you documents on it.

[This message has been edited by Syko (edited 09-19-2003).]

Finally someone that I agree with, nice work. This follows my sort of thinking exactly http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif). I think it makes a whole lot more sense as well, as the chinese proverb says 'there are many paths to the mountain, but the view is the same from the top'.