I thought that the answers to this might be able to make both the believers and the non-believers more open-minded. (Not saying that you aren't)

How and when did you question the existence of god and why did you choose to believe/not believe?

Please don’t comment on others experiences.

If you don’t agree with their decision, keep it to yourself.

I'll start with my own.

I was going to church with my parents every Sunday until I was 16 when I finally told my mum that I didn’t believe in god. I think the reason for this is that, although of my high exposure to religion, the idea of a single controlling entity shaping life and destiny was never explained to me in a way that I could grasp and say, “This is fact”. The idea of god to me just disappeared like the idea of Santa Claus. The rest of family still believe.

I didn't believe in God all the way up until I was 22. I really wanted to believe in God but since I was never satisfied with evidence that people put forth I could never genuinley believe.

After I heard a Bill Hicks tape where he mentioned God being a consciousness who experiences himself through life (or something similar).

I thought about that for a while and eventually things started slotting into place, until It seemed to me the chance of God existing (as a cosmic consciousness) was more likely than not.

My pastor always told me to avoid atheist literature, because it would undermine my faith in God. In retrospect, that guy was a lot smarter than I thought.

I don't think I ever actually HAD belief, even though I attended church till I was 14 and was even part of AWANAs for awhile. Everything I ever heard about God sounded canned or pure superstition. No part of this fabulous univers we exist in seems absolutely planned; a lot seems fabulously lucky, but I can't concieve of a being so powerful so as to run even the smallest chemical reactions, to the very expansion of the universe.

Frankly, I simply don't know. In my life I had heard many convincing arguments that God exists. I have also heard many convincing arguments He doesn't. I may as well flip and coin and hope I pick the right one. I dont want to waste my life praying to something thats not there, but then again I don't want to burn in hell. The shitty thing is, I will never know what to choose and until it's to late, and then I'll be dead!

Thats why I choose not to commit myself to anything. I'm still quite young (15) so perhaps I might one day change my mind, but right now I'll just get on with my life.

i grew up going to church and sunday school every week, but by the time i was 13 or so i realized i didn't believe any of it because it just wasn't rational.

i mean, come on, a virgin birth?

so i was pretty agnostic until i took my first religious studies class in college. that's when i learned what religious people are really talking about (and by 'religious people' i mean those who truly believe and aren't out to just 'save' folks and move them to their side).

i think after reading mircea eliade and all his bullshit about the 'sui generis' and whatnot i somewhat became more open to believing again. i think believing in some higher power has to do with a personal feeling one gets at some point or another, not what one in told in some organized establishment.

right now im up in the air about what exactly i believe, but im a hell of a lot more open minded than i was before i started reading about the experiences of others of other faiths.

xo

i was catholic till i was 12, then i realised just how much bull all the stories are and so now im prety anti catholic.

Im into the wiccan stuff now, its much more interesting, beliveable, and enjoyable.

Yeah, because praying to the moon or Baal or whatever is soooooo much more sensible than praying to Jesus or something.

Well, for starters you can actually see the moon.

I'm big on that. If I can see something, I dunno, It kinda helps the credibility along.

It doesn't matter what or who you worship. If the belief is there then it'll have an effect. It's like witches. What they use in spells probably means fuck all, but if they believe in what they do then it just might work.

Is it quantum physics? I don't know much about it.

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

Well, for starters you can actually see the moon.

I'm big on that. If I can see something, I dunno, It kinda helps the credibility along.

Can you see the moon's divine abilities? Cuz I can really only see a chunk of inanimate rock. Come on, man.

I can't see sub-atomic particles, but I believe they exist.

Anyway, I was raised agnostic, and I really do thank my parents for that. They never forced any religion on me whatsoever.

Of course, then I became a kike.

Why? Who knows why? I don't. It just makes sense to me, moreso than other religions or atheism.

i did... then i grew up

quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

I can't see sub-atomic particles, but I believe they exist.

No, but the existence of such particles has been proven scientifically beyond a reasonable doubt. Can you say the same for the divine powers of the moon?

everyone has always told me that there is a god, and i didnt question it till recently. now, i realize how much religion is brainwashing more than faith. spirituality and religion are 2 seperate things, and u can believe in god and at the same time not believe in church. i believe in neither now, so its not a problem. also i could go on about this for a looong time, but u really dont want that...

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

No, but the existence of such particles has been proven scientifically beyond a reasonable doubt. Can you say the same for the divine powers of the moon?

Who says the moon has divine powers?

Though, it DOES have that whole wacky gravity pull that allows for waves...

A&A? Can I just quote myself?

Please don’t comment on others experiences.

If you don’t agree with their decision, keep it to yourself.

I said this because I knew that the experiences and beliefs of some people will just seem like plain foolishness to others. (I cant talk to my family about god because I just cant understand how they could keep their views)

You shouldn't have looked at OMH's post as episode in stupidity. To me it looks like OMH still needed faith, but isn't ready to accept a religion that he/she didn't enjoy.

I dont think thats stupid if it works for the individual. You may, of course, but I guess thats reality.

Keep the views out, they get in the way



[This message has been edited by Dexies (edited 09-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Dexies (edited 09-19-2003).]

I can see my cock, let worship my cock and its life spewing abilities. Hooray!!!!

^ Naa, you can only worship things you can't see. You only just missed out tho. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Dexies:

Please don’t comment on others experiences.

If you don’t agree with their decision, keep it to yourself.

I said this because I knew that the experiences and beliefs of some people will just seem like plain foolishness to others.

Experiences don't count for shit, I'm afraid, especially "out of body" experiences and whatnot. It's all subjective, interpreted by your brain and expressed in a manner that may have nothing to do with reality.

When I gobbled mushrooms, the road was purple and the lane stripes were rainbowed like through a prism. The starlight gaps in the trees twisted into fractals.

When I smoked salvia, I saw patterns on the wall and felt them through wind that connected me to them, and the doormat was part of me through an arc of yellow energy. Little triangles of force danced on my shoulders and feet while one poked the tip of my tongue.

That doesn't mean any of it was real. It's just the brain working differently than normal (in this case because of chemicals), and it seems real to you because the brains workings are how you experience.

So unless your experience can be quantified, it doesn't mean a damn thing except you were fucked up.

And what of OOB experiences that ocurred while the person was completely sober?

You fail to understand the entire concept. Yes, you can go flipping into a world that your mind creates.

But, by your mind, they don't mean your brain.

It has been quantified, though not well enough to become 'scientific.' There have been experiments where a researcher has written a number( a six digit number) on a piece of paper, put it in a certain place, and seen if the subject could go out of body and identify the number. Many times, this did not happen. I'd wager the person probably got mixed up and ended up in a dream world a lot alike to the real world. But, other times, they have gotten the number right.

More experiments are required before we can begin to grasp the concept of why and how this happens, though.

Out-Of-Body Experiences and Astral Projections are discussed in Science of the Damned(though way more in-depth on other websites), and I find it pretty interesting. Check it out, before you dismiss it.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Yeah, because praying to the moon or Baal or whatever is soooooo much more sensible than praying to Jesus or something.

Acually it is about as sensible as Jesus, I mean we cant prove eithers exsistance so too me one is about as believable as the other. At least in Wicca theres more to it than becoming a backward person who is bound by thier religion. Almost all christans I know (mostly baptis) have such a strait forward approach to relegion that its pathetic. Everything is looked at as dull as possible. They think that if you listen to any onther music rather than gospel that you'll go to hell to burn for ever. I mean hell, at least with Wicca theres magick and its a little more exciting than just staying home and listining to tapes of preachers bitching about how everyone in the world is a sinner except for them, and constantly telling you that the world is going to end any day now.

Most people who go to church, I find have a very distorted veiw about christianity. I believe, but havn't been to church since I was six. You know why, I read the bible. You'd be amazed that a book can throw the entire concept of church and organised religion into chaos.

Also, Wiccans do not pray to the moon last time I checked. Theres something called a goddess that most of them believe in. You, like a god but only female.

Another thing you get when you don't go to church, but you do believe and prey is respect. Respect with other peoples ways and ideas. I will not tell the wiccan on this site that s/he's wrong. I can't as it's not a true christians place to judge. Let god worry bout the details of other people.

In my case, it was a case of familiarity breeding contempt. Plus a natural iconoclastic skepticism. I was "encouraged" to go to Sunday school when aged 8 yrs old. After three sessions, I was deemed "disruptive" because I had the temerity to ask questions. Silly me, I had the idea that you did that sort of thing in "school". Not so, it seems, when dealing with the faithful.

It seems to me that arguing others personal beliefs is inane. It only leads to war and bloodshed. A persons personal beliefs are just that personal.

As for me I came from a non religious family. In high school I got involved with the born again movement and was so brainwashed I was studying to become a pastor.Then for some reason I started to question everything and couldn't get reasonable answers. So I began researching other religions. In this process I found what I believe is the truth. Every religion has a part of the truth puzzle. There is not one true religion, just various pathes to the same truth. Because of this I adopted a religion that works for me. I dont feel the need to try to convert others because, if what they are doing works for them, then good for them! I can point out contradictions in there as well as my chosen path. So what? Anyways, thats my beliefs.

Oh and by the way. Saying Wiccans worship the moon is like saying Xtians worship a wooden cross. It's just a symbol of the divine. It isn't actually believed to be the God,or Godess. (and yes I am Wiccan if your wondering)



What everyone in this world needs to understand is that most religions have the same basic teachings.

Life

Death

Rebirth

Lets not fight over religion. Lets learn from each other and move on.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Can you see the moon's divine abilities? Cuz I can really only see a chunk of inanimate rock. Come on, man.

I speak nothing of "divine abilities" of the moon, I'm simply pointing out the fact that it can be seen is testament to it's existence.

Establishing the mere existence of something is the first step. Until that is done, all supernatural claims about the thing in question, be it God or the Moon, are irrelevant and need not be considered.

Now moontheory states that the moon exists. such appears to be the case beyond any reasonable doubt. Where exactly the moon came from, or whether it has divine powers has yet to be concluded. The best explanation for the moon so far is that it used to be a part of the Earth, and as for the "divine powers", none have been shown to exist. The gravitational effect on the tides is readily explainable. and thus doesn;t qualify as a supernatural capability.

I was really just fucking around, but the point I wanted to make is that the ability to determine the existence of a thing in question is a humongous factor when evaluating alleged properties of the said thing.