Regulars will remember this--two pathetic fucks broke into a church at night looking for food--the place was used as a food bank and had nothing of value in it. There WAS, however, a baby monitor that the wily pastor was using as a security system.

Instead of just calling the cops, the pastor got up, crossed the road (the church was a good ways from his home), hunted the guys down and shot them dead with a .44 magnum.

The pastor claimed self-defense, swore the guys were coming at him. WRONG, communion-breath--the medical examiner's rwport said the dudes were both SHOT IN THE BACK.

I bring this up because the perp's trial starts this week.

Opinions?

...it was dark and they were trespassing. Even if he shot them while fleeing- good. What kind of lowlife robs a church?

I have a feeling if it was some weirdo wiccan druid loser who ran over there with a magnum in one hand and a stupid rock tied to a stick in the other, and he killed some skinheads who broke into his church, you wouldnt think twice about it.

And he was across the street. Even with awesome police response time, unless he lucked out and there was a patrol around the corner at the time, the guys could have taken what they wanted and been on their way. And even if the cops were sitting out front chatting with the guy- its his fuckin church. If a guy broke into my house while i was across the street, damn straight Id follow him in.

quote:Originally posted by Spirit of '22:

...it was dark and they were trespassing. Even if he shot them while fleeing- good. What kind of lowlife robs a church?

I have a feeling if it was some weirdo wiccan druid loser who ran over there with a magnum in one hand and a stupid rock tied to a stick in the other, and he killed some skinheads who broke into his church, you wouldnt think twice about it.

An empty church is just another empty building.

What kind of lowlife? One who was fucked up n drugs, for one thing. A lowlife who was unemployed and desperate, for another. I am not surprised at your lack of compassion. If there is any justice in this world--and there is not, I assure--someday, you will be so down on your luck as to try to steal food.

And actually, I do not approve of shooting people in the back, regardless of the religion or lack thereof on the part of shooter OR shootee.

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:



What kind of lowlife? One who was fucked up n drugs, for one thing. A lowlife who was unemployed and desperate, for another. I am not surprised at your lack of compassion. If there is any justice in this world--and there is not, I assure--someday, you will be so down on your luck as to try to steal food.Weeelll, I was going to put in my two cents, but....

Oh, and I forgot to mention that one of the guys was running away and the pastor emptied his gun at him, shooting through a window.

This is responsible gun use?

Yes. No one else will try and break into the Church anymore.



And are you saying he was on drugs as evidence that he is NOT a lowlife?

And compassion can eat my asshole, it is worthless and weak and feminine at best.

yuck. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Spirit of '22:

Yes. No one else will try and break into the Church anymore.



And are you saying he was on drugs as evidence that he is NOT a lowlife?

And compassion can eat my asshole, it is worthless and weak and feminine at best.

No, I'm saying that being on drugs may have made him a pathetic loser, which is not a capital offense in my book.

You're saying feminine is bad? So what are you, one of those real macho men who only fucks other macho men?

I remember the story from one of the last updates. What are they trying the preacher for? Murder? Who is going to be the Prosecutions star witness?

I believe the preacher was justified in what he did....because....if it were me, and there was someone in my shop stealing my pissy tools....then they are trespassing, thieving and common criminals. I don't believe it is okay to shoot some people and not others who are doing the same thing in different ways.

What is the biggest argument for fighting gun control? To protect our homes and families. Personally, I think you enjoy this dilemma because it is a preacher who supposedly shot two thieves. As I said before, the preacher is just a human - he isn't Jesus or Buddha or any deity that is worshipped as perfect.

It's hypocracy to think it is okay for you to shoot a thief, but not for another person to do the same.

I believe in vigilanteism. Works much better than our current justice system.

"If one is slain while committing theft by night, he is rightly slain."

- The Eighth of Twelve Tables

Killing is wrong. Period. Justifiable in some instance, maybe, but never right.

God gave each of us the gift of life. We have the right to throw our own gift away, not some one else's.

why didn't the pastor switch on his baby monitor and say (a la russel crowe) "i am the voice of the lord ,looking down on your iniquities!"

this would have put the fear of god into the transgressors espescially if they were on drugs. and surely that more neatly fits the pastors job description.

this story is very ,very sad. it's a shame we none of us fully comprehend the enormous power of love and compassion.

Baby monitors are usually one way...



Killing is wrong. Period. Justifiable in some instance, maybe, but never right.

Says who? Certainly not any natural or supernatural source. If it were wrong, the entire natural world would cease to function.

God gave each of us the gift of life. We have the right to throw our own gift away, not some one else's.

How do you know? Again, says who? Certainly not any truths of nature or supernature. The world obviously works fine with killing. In fact, it only works because of it. No "shaman" of any real any tribe in any era before the hippie revolution would have said it is wrong to kill people who threaten your livelihood, or your family, or defile what is sacred.

My opinion is that he could have taken measures other than shooting people in the back and killing them over stupid shit like trespassing, or stealing FOOD.

Being a pastor has no relevance to the matter I think. I don't care if he worked at burger king, taking away someone's freedom to live is pretty fucked up in my opinion. Stealing food is a pretty pathetic excuse to kill someone. He killed someone because they were trying to survive and obviously were under different circumstances than him. It's not like they came in there with ak-47s, stormed his house and shot him, then took all of his shit. They were taking it because they probably needed it.

Shot in the back.

Fucking ridiculous...

*edit*

as for who is ultimately right or wrong in this discussion, I cannot say. I'm sure there are as many logical views against the pastor as there are in his defense. I simply stated my opinion.

[This message has been edited by Fuck (edited 10-01-2003).]

Who says killing is wrong?

God does, in the fifth commandment. Apparently the pastor hadn't gotten that far in bible study.

Thats being a little transparent and literal, huh? He commands that while commanding the execution of people under a lot of circumstances. Obviously, just ending someones life is not what the 5th Commandment means.

You're right. What it means is that you shouldn't do something (in this case, taking a life) that only god has the right to do.

As for commanding people's executions? Well, I dunno, maybe he was just letting his followers do his work for him. Or maybe it was really just some vengeful preacher claiming to speak for god.

Obviously, animals kill each other all the time, and I myself am not above eating dead meat.

However, I would prefer to die--this is no big deal, since I have an I

mmortal soul--than live out my life knowing that I killed a fellow human being.

I like to think that I have evolved a little more than most other animals, which is evidently more than some other posters here can say.

I'd rather stay alive.

Dead animal flesh tastes good.

I like being an animal.

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

Killing is wrong. Period. Justifiable in some instance, maybe, but never right.

God gave each of us the gift of life. We have the right to throw our own gift away, not some one else's.

I'd have done the same thing.

Hell, being a murderer priest/pastor is better than being a pedophile.

Okay, I thought ArmsMerchant point of the topic was that it was a pistol packing preacher who killed some people who were stealing food. My point is that it is hypocratic to give one person the "ok" to shoot a thief but not a preacher.

If the preacher would shoot someone, he would probably lie in court too.

healthy wild animals never waste precious energy killing without good reason (and before you waste time with kneejerk replies do your research into the animal you're about to cite.)if you are prepared to throw your lot in with the beasts and survive entirely at one with the elements, maybe after a few generations you could bring nature into the dicussion. you will probably find you have more productive demands on your time than posting here. also, weak brains and ugly faces don't get to reproduce in the wild,so think on.

the pastor's act,rooted in anger, was ineffectual. it neither provided sustenance, protected vital supplies or offspring, nor represented a deterrent. the threat was leaving the pastor's territory, an animal would have let it go. animals don't shoot you in the back.

although this behaviour is always reprehensible,remember this person is paid to spread a message of "turning the other cheek " and "giving the shirt off your back". there is an undeniable hypocrisy here. the only thing that pastor had any business chasing those poor souls down the street with was the contents of his larder. he had a responsibility to these people.

the enlightened ones who have walked this earth did not preach nonviolence ,forbearance, and tolerance so we could all collect cosmic credits. approaching conflict using wit, humour,imagination and intellect is the best use of a problem solving mind and yields the most profound results.

I dont think Hercules or Achilles would have hesitated before slaying both of them, and they are worth more than a million Armsmerchants or Jesuses.

...and no one ever accused Hercules or Achilles of being enlightened, either.

Wow, thats pretty low to try to loot a church, those guys must have really wanted food, too bad, waste of life. Kinda feel a little bit sorry for them, most likely homeless with no money whatsoever. A little off topic but does anyone else think that Pistol Packing Pastor would make a good TOTSE username? Has a good ring to it I think.

quote:Originally posted by crunked:

I remember the story from one of the last updates. What are they trying the preacher for? Murder? Who is going to be the Prosecutions star witness?

I believe the preacher was justified in what he did....because....if it were me, and there was someone in my shop stealing my pissy tools....then they are trespassing, thieving and common criminals. I don't believe it is okay to shoot some people and not others who are doing the same thing in different ways.

Personally, I think you enjoy this dilemma .

The paste is charged with manslaughter.

And as I said before, I don't think it is ever "okay" to shoot anyone, not that I think god gives a fuck, being that we all have immortal souls.

And being that I despise both organized religion AND hypocrisy, I am getting a certain amount of nasty pleasur wtching this local soap opera play out.

Still, I do feel for all concerned--the families of the victims, as well as the pastor himself. Regardless of how the verdict goes, every morning for the rest of his life, he will wake and remember that he killed two people and betrayed his calling. You don't get a whole lot closer to hell than that.

Too bad he wasn't in Montana, and they weren't indians. If so he could have gotten away with any, any plurality of indians in a group are dangerous and self defense can still be claimed even if you shoot first.

Yay for us backwoods yokel's!

quote:Originally posted by speedemon_z:

Too bad he wasn't in Montana, and they weren't indians. If so he could have gotten away with any, any plurality of indians in a group are dangerous and self defense can still be claimed even if you shoot first.

Yay for us backwoods yokel's!

Remind me to stay out of Montana. I am a member of the Muscogee Nation. My grandfather (five times) was Red Eagle. He's in some history books.

Wasn't the purpose of the food to give to hungry people? It seems kind of silly for the pastor to shoot two guys who were just trying to get food them, just because it wasn't "office hours"

So the pastor traded two human lives for... what? Potentially some food? Seems pretty screwed up to me.

How was he supposed to know they were after food? If I were hungry, in the "starving to the point of ill health" sense, I would just fuckin... ask the church. Not break intop it at night.

Update--the trial is in recess. The latest defense ploy--the defendant invoked spousal privilege--sounds kinky, just means his wife can't testify against him.

Ploy?

You are such a joke. Without your delusions of this grand enlightenment and grandfatherly tales of failure, youre just like every other piss poor shithead chug trying to convince the world he thinks his outhouse is a palace.

You're kidding....in Montana, the indians are thought to be up to no good if a few of them are together?

I didn't know there were any people in Montana.....(just a joke).

That's ludicrous.

What the pastor did was unnecessary.

What the pair breaking in did was unnecessary.