For one thng, they have been hated and reviled through history for no good reason.

But mainly, their god is so nutty. Good grief, he gave them something like 463 commandments--all the dietary restrictions have the same weight with him as the Big Ten; he mandates sexual mutilation of male children; and he doesn't even promise eternal life in spirit.

What a piker!

Four comments-

1. There are 613 commandments, including the Big 10.

2.The dietary restrictions are not God's fault. In the Torah, God says "Do not cook a calf/lamb (I forget which) in its mother's milk." From this various commentators have derived ridiculously specific laws about what Jews can and can not eat.

3.The "sexual mutilation" is strange, I admit. It was intended to show Abraham's faith; Abraham was the first Jew, and he circumcised himself at the age of 80. Now, it is done at the age of 8 days, so there is not much pain; the child's nervous system has not yet become as active as it later will. Plus, nobody remembers anything that happened when they were a week old, so they are not traumatized or anything. Also, there are hygenic reasons for circumcision; it reduces the risk of infections and various diseases. Some non-Jews have it done also.

4.You are correct, in Judaism there is no promise of eternal life after death. Instead, harsh punishments, mainly involving death in horrible ways, are mandated. However, these have not been carried out for the past few thousand years. You are promised death if you do not do that which you must or do that which is forbidden, but there are no promises otherwise. There is a theory that if one lives a life completely free from sin and follows every single commandment to the letter, one will live forever; God's capital punishment can come in the form of cancer, a heart attack, etc.

I believe that this, as well as all religions and their teachings, was fabricated to try to get people to behave morally; it didn't work. If you care, I have other posts/threads on that topic.

you have been missed ArmsMerchant.

quote:Originally posted by rbrt725:

Four comments-

1. There are 613 commandments, including the Big 10. Here is your only valid statement, yet incomplete. Only seven out of 613 being relevant for Gentiles. For instance, the first of ten says "I am yod-hey-vyv-hey-72 your God who took you out of Egypt" obviously irrelevant for a non-Jew. Same for shabbos etc...

yet there was never a being with 613 commandments to perform, since some were only appliable during the Temple era, some only on the holy land, some only to women, some only to kings, some only to the grand priest, to the cohens, the levites, the bastards, the sinners according to their sins, etc...

quote:

2.The dietary restrictions are not God's fault. In the Torah, God says "Do not cook a calf/lamb (I forget which) in its mother's milk." From this various commentators have derived ridiculously specific laws about what Jews can and can not eat. Wrong, it's the oral Torah that dates back to mount Sinai just as the scriptural Torah, many commandments in the scripture wouldn't make any sense nor would anyone know how to perform them, if not for the oral Torah. quote:

3.The "sexual mutilation" is strange, I admit. It was intended to show Abraham's faith; Abraham was the first Jew, and he circumcised himself at the age of 80. Wrong: at age 99. Age 80 is Moshe's age when he revealed himself as the saviour in Egypt.

quote:

4.You are correct, in Judaism there is no promise of eternal life after death. Instead, harsh punishments, mainly involving death in horrible ways, are mandated. However, these have not been carried out for the past few thousand years. Wrong

- Resurrection and eternal life is one of thirteen articles of basic faith as codified by the RaMBa"M Rabbee Moshe Bar Maimon the "great eagle", thirteen century. It is one of these disqualifying belief conditions.

- These death in horrible ways were applicable only when Jerusalem temple and the great Sanhedrin of 71, were in function. The Talmud says: "A sanhedrin which would pronounce more than one death penalty in seventy years, was reputed cruel". In fact they would always look for any way of easing the judgement and would judge "for the merit": lesser suspicion, context considerations, investigation of the guilty for circumstances in his/her life, that would have influenced and brought such actions as an effect and not 100% liable as a rule. The Talmud says: "a Human cannot sin unless a spirit of madness caught him".

quote:

I believe that this, as well as all religions and their teachings, was fabricated to try to get people to behave morally; it didn't work. If you care, I have other posts/threads on that topic. Wrong: How was criminality 50 years ago back when people were still having some religious education? How is it now? I feel sorry for Jews like you who know nothing about their own heritage, yet talk about it. I was born a catholic, but I know lots more on yourself than you do. Go and learn.



-=Ish=-



Elyahoo Hanavee Elyahoo Hatishbee Elyahoo Hagil'adee Bemheroh yavoy aylaynoo 'ym Mashiach Ben David.



[This message has been edited by UrbnTbone (edited 11-15-2003).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by UrbnTbone:

Wrong, it's the oral Torah that dates back to mount Sinai just as the scriptural Torah, many commandments in the scripture wouldn't make any sense nor would anyone know how to perform them, if not for the oral Torah. [QUOTE]

I don't know enough on the subject to dispute this completely, but I know that oral law can quite easily be distorted as it is passed down and that a lot of Jewish law was rabbis building a fence around laws in the torah. (the wonders of religious studies GCSE)

quote:Originally posted by ararise:

I don't know enough on the subject to dispute this completely, but I know that oral law can quite easily be distorted as it is passed down and that a lot of Jewish law was rabbis building a fence around laws in the torah. (the wonders of religious studies GCSE) The oral Torah has as a first principle, that unless you received a direct tradition on a given topic, you keep silent about it.

When the scripture threatens anyone that would add or cut anything from the Torah, it is for both aspects of the Torah: oral and written. None during transmission times, would even dare to innovate anything, for fear of that principle, called "trimming in the garden"(without being a gardner) and would amount to any major scripture transgression.

Nowadays it's dissolution time so only a tiny minority of Jews still abide to full respect.

Building a fence around something dangerous is just responsible behaviour in any community. The rabbis still know what is the Torah and what is the fence, and use this difference in many cases ie. food has already been caught on shabbos what do you do with it, you throw it away or eat it?

Well, many common sense factors mix with the decision: since it is not pious to throw food for no reason, it's not so easy to say "kosher" or "pasul"(unkosher). A decision is almost always in fact what "decision" implies, a choice between two - or more - options.

It's called rabbinical science and is far more infinitely complex and multi-dimensional than any western intellectual training or scientifical discipline. It took me more than seven years to be able to read the Talmud alone, and it's not easy even after fifteen, actually some talmudic treaties are so intricate, and the logical premisses are turned and flipped again each time you thought it was becoming clear, it takes -and develops- an exceptional agility. That's why Jews are a bit clever than the average.

It's the culture of deepest intellectual insights dealing with the letter of the law, allied with proportional, that is deepest, insight in the spirit of the law. If you are a real car fan you owe it to yourself to know mechanics thoroughly... The christian or new-age "Spirit" vs. "letter" propaganda just doesn't refer to anything real, Jews are the best I saw in both dimensions. To me personally it's the meaning of the six branch star, both triangles from upper and lower knowledge being totally interwoven, and it being ridicule to pretend making a difference between the spiritual life of a Jew(kaballah etc...) and a total observance of the hardware level(dealing properly with the lower, because it is a key to the higher realm).

A revelation of all levels of life, from crown to shoes, implies that you don't use a crown bareless feet... All the laws of the Torah assume that the Creator gave you a special recipe to pass through this karma and leave it richer. Since "what is above is below and what is below is above", the surest way is to follow the lead of those who know all levels and therefore know how important it is to follow the exoteric path as well as the esoteric path, since it is but one path.

But WTF I'm talking like a rabbi, enough!

For people who live according to a law, they better build themselves fences so they never get caught on anything real. It's common sense, just as never taking more than one drink before driving(according to state law). You could argue that with a meal it doesn't goes into your blood that much, but a sane fence cuts any form of logic, since with any logic you end up getting caught once in a while. And if God is worth anything in your eyes, you won't take the slightest chance.

TF, again a F. long post. Bottom line: the study of jewish law is some exercise I could not compare with anything: it's unique as contempling the world's biggest gem and its 70 faces.

I feel sorry for people who live in a wishy-washy spiritual environment without taking seriously the cause and effect cycle of any detail in life. Besides a song, "don't worry be happy" should be a deep philosophical maxim: you don't wanna worry, you wanna be happy, then make sure you master your interactive destiny to the last minute. Do stuff now that respects what your evolution in another 100 years might tell you. Don't lead your life according to the instant when it means taking a loan on your future freedom of choice. AAAright. One more unreadable lecture. U know what? print it and learn it later if you're ever interested in a crash course in "(ultra)orthodox" Judaism (LOL soon if you wanna describe what judaism is, you'll have to say mega-super-ultra-orthodox: every day a new god, every day a new sect of reformed judaism, then some half-reformed Jews tell you they are orthodox, so you are called "ultra orthodox... It's all BS. Judaism has been around for those millenia and not last century's fashions and imitations, will determine anyone as super-ultra-orthodox, when they are just those keeping the candle lit").

Ah, shit, I can't make it shorter, I had to pull some milk, who knows maybe there'll be someone to enjoy it.



[This message has been edited by UrbnTbone (edited 11-16-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by UrbnTbone:

Originally posted by ararise:

I don't know enough on the subject to dispute this completely, but I know that oral law can quite easily be distorted as it is passed down and that a lot of Jewish law was rabbis building a fence around laws in the torah. (the wonders of religious studies GCSE) The oral Torah has as a first principle, that unless you received a direct tradition on a given topic, you keep silent about it.

When the scripture threatens anyone that would add or cut anything from the Torah, it is for both aspects of the Torah: oral and written. None during transmission times, would even dare to innovate anything, for fear of that principle, called "trimming in the garden"(without being a gardner) and would amount to any major scripture transgression.

Nowadays it's dissolution time so only a tiny minority of Jews still abide to full respect.

Building a fence around something dangerous is just responsible behaviour in any community. The rabbis still know what is the Torah and what is the fence, and use this difference in many cases ie. food has already been caught on shabbos what do you do with it, you throw it away or eat it?

Well, many common sense factors mix with the decision: since it is not pious to throw food for no reason, it's not so easy to say "kosher" or "pasul"(unkosher). A decision is almost always in fact what "decision" implies, a choice between two - or more - options.

It's called rabbinical science and is far more infinitely complex and multi-dimensional than any western intellectual training or scientifical discipline. It took me more than seven years to be able to read the Talmud alone, and it's not easy even after fifteen, actually some talmudic treaties are so intricate, and the logical premisses are turned and flipped again each time you thought it was becoming clear, it takes -and develops- an exceptional agility. That's why Jews are a bit clever than the average.

It's the culture of deepest intellectual insights dealing with the letter of the law, allied with proportional, that is deepest, insight in the spirit of the law. If you are a real car fan you owe it to yourself to know mechanics thoroughly... The christian or new-age "Spirit" vs. "letter" propaganda just doesn't refer to anything real, Jews are the best I saw in both dimensions. To me personally it's the meaning of the six branch star, both triangles from upper and lower knowledge being totally interwoven, and it being ridicule to pretend making a difference between the spiritual life of a Jew(kaballah etc...) and a total observance of the hardware level(dealing properly with the lower, because it is a key to the higher realm).

A revelation of all levels of life, from crown to shoes, implies that you don't use a crown bareless feet... All the laws of the Torah assume that the Creator gave you a special recipe to pass through this karma and leave it richer. Since "what is above is below and what is below is above", the surest way is to follow the lead of those who know all levels and therefore know how important it is to follow the exoteric path as well as the esoteric path, since it is but one path.

But WTF I'm talking like a rabbi, enough!

For people who live according to a law, they better build themselves fences so they never get caught on anything real. It's common sense, just as never taking more than one drink before driving(according to state law). You could argue that with a meal it doesn't goes into your blood that much, but a sane fence cuts any form of logic, since with any logic you end up getting caught once in a while. And if God is worth anything in your eyes, you won't take the slightest chance.

TF, again a F. long post. Bottom line: the study of jewish law is some exercise I could not compare with anything: it's unique as contempling the world's biggest gem and its 70 faces.

I feel sorry for people who live in a wishy-washy spiritual environment without taking seriously the cause and effect cycle of any detail in life. Besides a song, "don't worry be happy" should be a deep philosophical maxim: you don't wanna worry, you wanna be happy, then make sure you master your interactive destiny to the last minute. Do stuff now that respects what your evolution in another 100 years might tell you. Don't lead your life according to the instant when it means taking a loan on your future freedom of choice. AAAright. One more unreadable lecture. U know what? print it and learn it later if you're ever interested in a crash course in "(ultra)orthodox" Judaism (LOL soon if you wanna describe what judaism is, you'll have to say mega-super-ultra-orthodox: every day a new god, every day a new sect of reformed judaism, then some half-reformed Jews tell you they are orthodox, so you are called "ultra orthodox... It's all BS. Judaism has been around for those millenia and not last century's fashions and imitations, will determine anyone as super-ultra-orthodox, when they are just those keeping the candle lit").

Ah, shit, I can't make it shorter, I had to pull some milk, who knows maybe there'll be someone to enjoy it.

[This message has been edited by UrbnTbone (edited 11-16-2003).]

do i feel sorry for jews hmmmmmm.. NO!

are they rulinng the world by proxy....YES!

and about the one drink what if I had a tripple shor of vodka or evercleer be4 driving?? lolz

I speak to affirm

UbrnThorn You are thinking of the wrong thing for #3, Abraham was commanded to circumsise himself by god, and this was an affirmation of his judism. It had nothing to do with your rather random topic of moses.

However, I do applaud your useage of Maimonides. While you are correct that MM came up with the thirteen articles of faith, and that #13 is resurrection, you must remember that there are others which can be decided as unnessicary, God is Omniscnt, and God punishes and rewards. They can be easily disproved, and yet you can remain fully jewish. Anything by MM is completely questionable, for it is not unreasonable to expect that no one understands what he was really talking about. 10% of those who read him think that he may have been a closet agnostic.

Regardless, Ressurection is promised. When the messiah comes, the Dead shall roll to Israel, and all others shall know judism.

And there is a hell. Gehenna, which of course is the hell, and the maximum punishment for your crimes is up to one year. While it seems light, this is like 1000X worse and reflective of what you did to get there than the petty "forever burn in hell" of the christians.

There is in fact a world to come which is promised. However it may not all be the flurry angel crap of the christians either. It may simply be a reward of the soul, not one of the body.

Urbn, you should leave here and start over at a board where people dont know that youre not jewish...

quote:Originally posted by NightVision:

do i feel sorry for jews hmmmmmm.. NO!

are they rulinng the world by proxy....YES!

and about the one drink what if I had a tripple shor of vodka or evercleer be4 driving?? lolz OK fasten your belt then http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)...

quote:Originally posted by SpaceFalcon2001:

I speak to affirm

UbrnThorn You are thinking of the wrong thing for #3, Abraham was commanded to circumsise himself by god, and this was an affirmation of his judism. It had nothing to do with your rather random topic of moses.

I was just trying to figure where he got his "age 80" from, casually. quote:

However, I do applaud your useage of Maimonides.

me too quote:

While you are correct that MM came up with the thirteen articles of faith, and that #13 is resurrection, you must remember that there are others which can be decided as unnessicary, God is Omniscnt, and God punishes and rewards. They can be easily disproved, and yet you can remain fully jewish. Nothing can be proven nor disproven in these matters. About punish and reward, you can get an idea by comparing with the eastern concept of karma, reward by natural circumstances and reincarnations, fixing of previous misdeeds in an other context offered by providence, etc... Reward/punishment is not the childish idea, but elaborate ways that the world has to put you in front of your own shit thus giving you a chance to recognize patterns and therapize your ways, just a bit like a psychoanalysis. Besides, eternal reward or hell, cannot be proved either.

quote:

Anything by MM is completely questionable, for it is not unreasonable to expect that no one understands what he was really talking about. 10% of those who read him think that he may have been a closet agnostic. It's impossible to consider him agnostic, since the immense majority of his works - those in Hebrew, not Arabic - were Law compilation and exaltation of the Torah in all its eternal magnificence. Rather, his originality was, as opposite to the rabbis of his generation, that he considered the use of philosophy as sound and legitimate, whereas they would put the whole discipline in the generic term of heresy, and condemn its learning. "Maimonson" meant, well aristotle was smart, but his thought is no monopoly, it is just like a natural science, an objective technical fact that one can use as a tool without believing in all its tenets.[/B][/QUOTE]

Regardless, Ressurection is promised. When the messiah comes, the Dead shall roll to Israel, and all others shall know judism.

And there is a hell. Gehenna, which of course is the hell, and the maximum punishment for your crimes is up to one year. While it seems light, this is like 1000X worse and reflective of what you did to get there than the petty "forever burn in hell" of the christians.

There is in fact a world to come which is promised. However it may not all be the flurry angel crap of the christians either. It may simply be a reward of the soul, not one of the body.[/B][/QUOTE] Or both who knows.



---Richard Hell & the voidoids

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

For one thng, they have been hated and reviled through history for no good reason.



How do you know that? Besides what your teacher told you they were hated because they were jews. Do some research buddy perhaps try thinking like a nazi. I am not siding with them but I hate dumb founded statements like that.



quote:But mainly, their god is so nutty. Good grief, he gave them something like 463 commandments--all the dietary restrictions have the same weight with him as the Big Ten; he mandates sexual mutilation of male children; and he doesn't even promise eternal life in spirit.

There god is the same one as christians and muslims. They are basically identical religions except they call there god different names such as Yahweh (Jews/Christians) and Allah for muslims. Your probably talking about the Babylonian bible by rabbis called the Talmud.

Jews mainly get alot of hatred because they have HUGE political and social power and its disproportionate to there population ratio. Plus most Jewish "Elites" are called Zionist and look out for there/jewish interests. Thats why you still have nazis today because obviously they are pissed about that.

quote:Originally posted by LSA King:

Jews mainly get alot of hatred because they have HUGE political and social power and its disproportionate to there population ratio.

We have huge political and social power because the individuals that have that power worked hard for it, not because there is a conspiracy that stops non-Jews getting all the jobs.

And by the way Urbn, great posts. I think this is the first time that I've ever agreed entirely about what you've said.

Yeled Tov http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by UrbnTbone:

Nothing can be proven nor disproven in these matters.

Without going into immense detail.

God, acc. to judism, cannot be that all knowing. For God to be eternal and all knowing would mean that fate exists, and that is simply not a jewish ideal.

Also, MM denounces the punishment/reward system, it is only a means for getting a child to study torah, but then he is not doing it for love of torah, but for the want of a reward.

quote:Originally posted by UrbnTbone:

Rather, his originality was, as opposite to the rabbis of his generation, that he considered the use of philosophy as sound and legitimate, whereas they would put the whole discipline in the generic term of heresy, and condemn its learning.

If I may translate a few lines of the guide to the perplexed:

Should A proof for aristotle's opinion on everything being eternal, the law (torah) may become void.

Basically he was saying that should Aristotle be proved, then you might as well give up judism. That alone was enough to have Rabbis buring his books after his death.

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

But mainly, their god is so nutty. Good grief, he gave them something like 463 commandments--all the dietary restrictions have the same weight with him as the Big Ten; he mandates sexual mutilation of male children; and he doesn't even promise eternal life in spirit.

I've always thought most of the seemingly gratuitous commandments were rules on desert hygiene, codified as religious law.

[This message has been edited by TigerJK (edited 11-18-2003).]

::giggle::

you said oral

Even the jews are admitting they rule the world by proxy. The evil moneylenders...

There are HEAPS of reasons why they are hated, dig deeper.

quote:The dietary restrictions are not God's fault.

Everything is God's fault.

quote:Originally posted by SpaceFalcon2001:

If I may translate a few lines of the guide to the perplexed:

Should A proof for aristotle's opinion on everything being eternal, the law (torah) may become void. Check the original Arabic or Ibntibbon's hebrew translation, it refers to one's faith in the Law as eternal and the greatest of all transgression, that of changing - ultimately cancelling - any bit of the tora (http://www.aish.com/spirituality/kabbala101/Kabbala_1_-_What_Is_Kabbala$.asp), not that anyone could ever consider the Law as subject to change or possibly cancelled(!) quote:

Basically he was saying that should Aristotle be proved, then you might as well give up judism. That alone was enough to have Rabbis buring his books after his death. The rabbis of that time were Spain's and southern France kabbalists of the golden age, who fought against what was eventually going to destroy the world: dry rationalistic misunderstanding of the world. Even Plato was put aside in aristotelician views. That marked the beginning of the end of Mankind as subject to Tradition, and the substitution of human intelligence on the scale of one generation (tabula rasa) instead of the accumulation of ages of wisdom and experience as rendered by symbolic tradition and exo/eso terical balance in tradition. Big mess. Ozone layer, nuclear waste, millions species way into extinction, usw... Is it better to ride an old steam vehicle but safely, or an ultra-high-tech-machine which is heading straight into the wall? I'm not asking which is more political-correct or fashionable, but what is better?

"Vayachatz Yankov ays hamachaneh"

Aphela Coronion thank you it's the first time you judge me favorably; had you read with more attention you'd have discovered since a long time I was not the monster you fancied about. Now go and learn.

[This message has been edited by UrbnTbone (edited 01-28-2004).]