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Hex of Rockford
2003-12-28, 08:48
When I'm short of time to give a full list of descriptors for my religious beliefs, I will often describe myself as a Christian atheist. An oxymoron, I know, but I will explain my reasoning behind such, and the developement of my beliefs.

First off, I was raised Christian, and hardcore Christian at that. At the young age of seven, I was already beginning to lose faith in God and the truth of the Bible. Some of this was due to contradictions in several books I was reading due to my interest in dinosaurs and geography. I was taught the Earth was young and formed by God, while another source of teaching, science, told me the earth was ancient, and that life had been here millions of years; the difference between the two...the scientific source provided reasons to believe what it stated while my Bible simply said it was God's will...a will I was beginning to defy.

Many kids are raised with the idea of Santa Claus, the jolly and kind man who rewards good behavior and punishes bad behavior. I was not raised with this but my brother was, so I saw the contrast in this while I was 8 and he was 6. It already seemed to me that my parents just wanted him to behave, so they told him he gets rewarded for being good. My religion seemed very similar to this; heaven for those who behave, hell for those who dissent. My father was an abusive man so I wasn't too happy with the idea of punishment. My dad told me that he hit me because he loved me and didn't want me to turn out messed up...it still hurt emotionally, and it seemed to be parallel with the idea of an all-loving god who sends the dissenting to Hell. These thoughts created an area in my mind that has forever hated the idea of punishment and set me towards rehabilitation in place of it.

While the next two years I was detatched from the faith, I was still learning a lot about beliefs and humanity in the Bible. My affinity for rehabilitation was just in line with the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament. There was very little talk of punishment, but much optimistic peering into the ability of man to change for the better. I was once again hooked on Christianity, despite having little interest in the Christian god.

Then, at age ten, I considered myself a Christian because I knew the moral teachings and rules quite well and agreed nearly 100% with a great deal of them as I had seem plenty of examples of them making lives improve. The 5 of the 10 commandments dealing with social morals fit directly into life, and the teachings of Christ were so gentle and loving, and most of all forgiving. I loved the idea of forgiveness; it was faith in humanities ability to better itself. To this day, I find no action in all humanity to be more powerful than forgiveness. I found it easy to forgive people for doing things to me that hurt with immense force...mainly my father's abuse and alcoholism...it hurt, yes, but it was forgiven. Soon though, I would feel a betrayel in my mind that would take me 4 years to forgive.

At age 11, my best friend and only confidant was killed by his mother. I was told countless times in my church that God protects those who have faith and guides us through rough times. I prayed so much the next few weeks but felt so lost, I felt no guidance from God. Somehow, I was able to forgive my friend's mom, but not God. At the young age of 11, I began searching the bible for answers. I noticed that a theme of the bible was man's ability to choose. My friend's mother was able to choose this action, despite my will that my friend be safe. It was at this point that I developed the belief that God cannot interfere in our lives to even the slightest extent as it would take away our free will; however, I was scared and angry that my friend had died. I wished my free will away, I wished God had been there, and I cursed God that day and cast him from my goals. The next four years I had a slowly crumbling faith in Christianity as I delved further into science. My love of paleontology, geography, astronomy, physics, biology...it all hit me with a great force, and more and more I discovered that science answered my questions better than the Bible ever had.

I turned sixteen just about two weeks before I realized my faith in God had completely diminished. I still held onto my love for forgivenes, change, honesty, and the main foundations of Christianity...but I hated the religion and its God. I hated Christians, and from this, I hated the religions close to it: Islam and Judaism. I slowly grew to hate all religion and all belief. I became the most religiously offensive person I could. I told jokes about raping Jesus, Muhammed, Allah, God, murdering children, suicide, and generally sick shit. At this point, my count for attempted suicides was nearing 10. Everytime I got near the point of ending it my body went haywire and the vital stab wound would just hit muscle. I have a 4" scar on my stomache from a blade wound I'm guessing missed internal organs by mere fractions of an inch...I have no idea how I possibly missed with such a giant gash. I was thoroughly depressed and attempting serious suicide rather than ploys for attention. Eventually though, I made a cry for help.

In my Algebra class, in front of my sat a person who would change my life. I had known her since seventh grade, but never really got to KNOW her. She laughed at all my jokes except the religious ones, it took me some time to figure out why. She was a devout Christian. Later in the school year we went on a field trip to a theme park...long ass bus ride on the way back. I decided to talk to her about religion. For a 3 hour bus ride, I spilled out to her my life, and her the same to me. She invited me to come to her church sometime. I said I would, and got her screen name so I could talk to her sometime. The next week, Spring Break started. I was becoming seriously depressed again, typing up a suicide letter on my computer when she logged on. I talked to her for almost two hours about completely inane shit, and it cheered me up a great deal. I shut my computer off and went to bed crying. I talked to her off and on for the last month or so of school. Summer began and contact with her pretty much went down the shitter.

About three weeks into summer, I decide to go to her church. There, I met some great people and an awesome pastor. I began to go in regular attendance and absorb a lot of the sermons, but much of it still was blocked by my mind due to my childhood and my friend's death.

Midsummer, however, my mind was fully opened and a lot of my childhood was shot away and replaced with the sermons at this church. I went on a camping trip with the youth group to Ohio, at which point I converted back to Christianity. I was happy with this for awhile, but eventually, my love of science interrupted again.

This time, my dissent from Christianity wasn't based on logic alone however; this time, I was seeing the pain of humanity in full context. My friends were all in constant distress from life, my life was shit except for my friends and this girl who always seemed to be there for me, and I saw no reason for faith. This God was not helping me, I once again reverted back to what I had realized years ago: This God could NOT interfere with our lives, it would violate his gift of free will. With this, I believed all hope for myself was lost: I had gained some of my earlier wisdom back, but not the essential love of forgiveness and change, I couldn't forgive myself.

On the night before my seventeenth birthday, I drove to a school across town and for several hours I was pondering how to commit suicide in a fashion that looked like murder so my friends wouldn't be as hurt as much as if I had given in. Eventually, the only thought that stopped me was the pain the girl who saved my life before would go through at my death. The next day, I went to church and cried a great deal. Over the next month, my attendance there slowly died off as I began to value my freedom over my obligation to appease the people there.

During this period, I lost contact with the girl who had saved my life, twice now. I was depressed for a short period but recovered with my beliefs intact. I loved forgiveness, change, and the basic beliefs of human society being the best it can all for aesthetic reasons. One part was missing though, I had no position on the idea of God. I came to the ultimatum that this God has had no effect on the outcome of my life, and despite their existence in my mind, I would do what I deem correct as it appears to me only my will matters in MY life.

In one day, I ended every one of my friendships in my mind, they were all based on responsibility. I decided which to keep and built these on the basis of respect for humans and decided to let them become responsibilities if deemed worthy of it. One friendship, I didn't deem worthy of even recreating for some time: the girl who had saved my life twice. I heard from several people how she wanted to hear from me and was really missing me. I ignored this for some time. Just recently, I made contact with her again. She's gone through so much I could have helped her with. I love her dearly, and I am in love with her; however, my mistake of letting her slip away from me has ruined my hope of there being a partnership. My only comfort is that she is once again a friend, and that humans still have the ability to change for any means...hope is not lost.

I sit and type before you with beliefs in love, kinship, honestly, fairness, empathy, sympathy, forgiveness, peace, humbleness, honor, respect, and most important of all, faith in humanity; I consider these the pillars of Christianity. My beliefs despite my defiance of the god I believe to exist are why I call myself a Christian Atheist. I claim and worship no god, not even the one I believe to exist, my pantheon consists of zero Gods, a(without)-theist(gods). By all logic, Occam's razor should have deleted this belief that a god exists...but humans aren't logical in the sense of removing emotion. We logically respond to emotion and events however, and that is what I am...a response to knowledge and betrayel. I am a Christian Atheist.

If you have any questions or would like clarification, please ask.

Dark_Magneto
2003-12-28, 11:53
It's still mutually exclusive. Either you accept that there is some form of god and draw whatever conclusions are convienent, or you do not believe there is a god, nor ever was one.

By the way, your testimonial appears to be quite the emotional rollercoaster. I renounced Christianity due to rational constraints and not because of any expectations or emotional escapades. Even when I did believe in god, it was a given that if you get in a tight spot, the only thing that can get you out of it is you. I had the view that god never did anything for anyone short of creating them or sending them to an infinite hell for finite deeds comitted during a finite lifespan.

Hex of Rockford
2003-12-28, 18:15
The conclusion I've drawn about God IS for convenience. No God has played any positive or negative role in my life, so I refuse to show reverence or obedience. No point in wasting my time worshipping an incompetent figure that uses the same methods of 'love' as my drunken father. Heaven and Hell...nice bullshit places there.

For all those who worship a god, how is eternal paradise a good thing? Think about how our minds work, our concepts of good and bad, pleasure and pain, are all relative. That paradise will become your everyday boredom because there is no evil to compare it to...and the same is true with Hell and the inability to compare the horrible pain to anything good, so it's essentially just eternal boredom. Monotony and eternity are essentially the same thing in my opinion; so I don't necessarily welcome death, but I don't fear it. I'm here to live. Life shouldn't be spent preparing for death, it should be spent living.

CesareBorgia
2003-12-28, 18:22
quote:Originally posted by Hex of Rockford:

The conclusion I've drawn about God IS for convenience. No God has played any positive or negative role in my life, so I refuse to show reverence or obedience. No point in wasting my time worshipping an incompetent figure that uses the same methods of 'love' as my drunken father. Heaven and Hell...nice bullshit places there.

For all those who worship a god, how is eternal paradise a good thing? Think about how our minds work, our concepts of good and bad, pleasure and pain, are all relative. That paradise will become your everyday boredom because there is no evil to compare it to...and the same is true with Hell and the inability to compare the horrible pain to anything good, so it's essentially just eternal boredom. Monotony and eternity are essentially the same thing in my opinion; so I don't necessarily welcome death, but I don't fear it. I'm here to live. Life shouldn't be spent preparing for death, it should be spent living.

I don't think I would ever get tired or bored of Heaven(if it's what I think it is: i.e. me getting to fuck some hot chicks.)

Hex of Rockford
2003-12-28, 19:09
You're like a Neitzche-ist or some shit like that though? Eh? Have fun Superman http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Ubermensch is a good idea and all...I enjoy the thought put behind it, but for the idea to become part of my life, I'd have to modify it a little bit.

noraa_boy
2003-12-28, 21:28
Seems to me that you should call yourself a humanist.

Haddock
2003-12-29, 21:09
quote:Originally posted by noraa_boy:

Seems to me that you should call yourself a humanist.

Or just a moral atheist.

theBishop
2003-12-30, 05:04
My Philosophy professor was in a similar boat. He doesn't believe in "Christianity", but he does believe in the practical teachings of Christ. I can see how someone could look at Christ's word and say "This makes sense to me", but also, Jesus claimed to be God when he said "I Am". In the old testament, Moses asked God what name to call god, and God responded with a word that is translated into "I am". There are many other references to the OT where Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of "the messiah" for Jews. It is true that Christ was a "great teacher", but if you read all his teachings, there's a lot more than a "Guide to Better Living" there.

Armed&Angry
2003-12-31, 08:18
I believe that Christianity is bunk, but that your average fellow can use a bit of hope wherever it comes from, and hence Christianity is an overall positive force. I suppose you could call me an atheist with Christian sympathies.

CesareBorgia
2003-12-31, 20:47
quote:Originally posted by noraa_boy:

Seems to me that you should call yourself a humanist.

A humanist is different from what he is. Humanism is "a doctrine, attitude, or way of life centered on human interests or values, stressing an individual's dignity and worth and capacity for self-realization through reason and other human skills. It usually rejects supernaturalism, but some religious people consider themselves humanists."(Wikipedia)

He has some humanistic tendencies, but he is not a complete humanist. Haddock was right, a moral atheist would be the correct descriptor.



[This message has been edited by CesareBorgia (edited 12-31-2003).]

inquisitor_11
2004-01-05, 10:23
Hex, theres not much too say. You sir, are the bomb. (in a totally unpatronizing way)

why?

1) You ve shown an honesty and openness to share with a group that is, more likely than not, look for any possible flaw in your 'atheology' and pick at

2) Your trying to figure things out for yourself. Your seeking the truth. If you keep that search genuine, it counts for a lot. "know the truth, and it will set u free"

Although i stand on a different platform, i respect u for your courage and honesty (again in a nonpatronizing way- very politically correct...!). Just remember that u are responsible for what u do with what u know.

BasicWhiteRabbit
2004-01-05, 19:22
Well actually their are Christian Atheists, down South we call them Unitarians

guernica
2004-01-12, 05:00
I'm just going to respond to that story with a "wow." Crazy stuff man. I think my belief system is rather similar to yours. I believe in most of the morals and whatnot of catholicism, but the idea of an all-powerful God that has done and can do everything he is said of being capable of... very, VERY questionable.

Inside_Voices
2004-01-12, 23:25
quote:Originally posted by Haddock:

Or just a moral atheist.

But the implied morals are set by Christianity originally, so it still kind of undoes itself. I'm atheist and decide my own morals. The fact that other people might acknowledge them does not make me a Christian or have Christian morals, but they might overlap at rare times. Unless he's saying the same thing and i missed it.

inquisitor_11
2004-01-13, 02:54
There really is no point taking on "christian morals" without Christ. The vast majority of its motivation is not "helping you to live a better life and be nice to people" or some other altruistic niceity. Rather it was set out as a right response to a God that had shown undeseverd mercy to us.

Add to that the fact that Jesus claimed to be the son of God, which would just about destroy any credibility he would have as a teacher of morality. In the words of C.S. Lewis, it "puts him on the level of a man who claims he is a poached egg".

Lab
2004-01-14, 23:55
Hmmm, I agree a lot with the way you reference things. Christian morals are positive as others have said, but the idea of a supernatural being and a place of eternal happiness is bullshit. Very well put.

Centauri
2004-01-20, 05:25
quote:Originally posted by Hex of Rockford:

I got near the point of ending it my body went haywire and the vital stab wound would just hit muscle. I have a 4" scar on my stomache from a blade wound I'm guessing missed internal organs by mere fractions of an inch...

...I was never a Christian the fact was I use to the bible agents its self, etc. I don’t know how I could have as life has been getting better since…

btw when I first joined this forum I was an Atheist.