I want somebody to prove to me that God does not exist.

You know that they're going to ask you to prove that he does, right?

There's no way for either side to prove their case.

faithdefend, the burden of proof is on the person saying that a god exists.

It is ridiculous to ask someone to do what you just asked. You might as well have asked for someone to prove that invisible pink unicorns do not exist.

However, if you weren't trying to be clever and I have misunderstood you, I do apologise.

quote:Originally posted by noraa_boy:

faithdefend, the burden of proof is on the person saying that a god exists.

The burder of proof is on anyone claiming anything.

quote:It is ridiculous to ask someone to do what you just asked.

No, it's not.

quote: You might as well have asked for someone to prove that invisible pink unicorns do not exist.

How cliched. Yet, still very valid.

But, then again, what would you do if someone asked you to prove that invisible pink unicorns DID exist?

Either way, you'd have no conclusive proof, no matter which side you take.

Them's the breaks with our mental limitations. God's funny like that.

The_Rabbi:

The burder of proof is on anyone claiming anything.

Thank you, Rabbi Obvious. There's no need to nitpick.

No, it's not.(ridiculous)

Fair enough. I shouldn't put people down like that. I of course am not immune to saying ridiculous stuff as well(by my standards, anyway).

But, then again, what would you do if someone asked you to prove that invisible pink unicorns DID exist?

If I did indeed think that invisible pink unicorns exist and I was trying to prove their existence to you, I would say that I won't because I can't. I wouldn't however, ask you to disprove their existence as an arguement for their existence. I think this should apply to theists as well.

I agree that the existence of a god can't be proven either way, so I'm sticking with the agnostic position of "I don't know". In that sense, what faithdefend asked may have been ridiculous, for it is impossible to prove either assertion(like you said), right?

If I have totally misunderstood the intent of this thread, just ignore me.

[This message has been edited by noraa_boy (edited 01-21-2004).]

Im sorry, but noraa is right. It is a rediculous question.

You can't prove something doesn't exist. If something doesn't exist it doesn't exist, so there will be no facts that point towards or away from it. The only proof of something not existing is a complete lack of any proof towards it existing.

Technically, God has already been proven to not exist. There is no indication of him existing in our lives, therefore he does not exist. There is nothing that you can touch, hear, look at, taste or smell that will in any way show the slightest amount of proof towards God existing.

Now, I don't believe that God has been proven to not exist, because that really can't be true unless we understood the origin of everything in the universe. Im just trying to say that you can't prove that something doesn't exist. 'Proof' towards soemthings non-existance is illogical. Like I said, the only 'proof' would be the lack of any proof.

There's no proof either way.

It's something you have to decide for yourself based on your "gut" instinct.

Cheers,

Lost

I do not believe that belief in God or against God is just a "gut feeling". Christianity is not "blind faith", I can back up my Christian worldview, (read some of my posting for a glimpse), all I am challenging people to do is to explain to me there atheistic, skeptic, agnostic, ect, worldview.

quote:Originally posted by faithdefend:

I do not believe that belief in God or against God is just a "gut feeling". Christianity is not "blind faith", I can back up my Christian worldview, (read some of my posting for a glimpse), all I am challenging people to do is to explain to me there atheistic, skeptic, agnostic, ect, worldview.

You can't back up Christianity with [i]any[\i] support. The same goes for all religions...it's like what Lost said: gut feeling.

Actually, even though Christianity cannot be proven true, there are arguments for it to sway your gut feelings. I think that counts as support.

And just to answer faithdefend's challenge - I am agnostic because my part in the Christian god's(or any diety's) plan is apparently not important enough to warrant a personal visit or a sign. I would like at least a talking burning bush and I would give my arms and legs for what Gideon got in the bible. Heck, I'd go to hell to make sure that there really is a god.

[This message has been edited by noraa_boy (edited 01-21-2004).]

I am agnostic because there is no way that anyone can possibly know for certain whether or not God exists.

There is so much in this universe that we know nothing about. For anyone to sit back and claim they know the truth is simply ridiculous.

I'd rather just live my life without worrying about it. Maybe we'll learn something when we die, maybe we won't.

Man, is anyone else getting sick to the brim of thread after thread arguing gods existance?

There are so many other subjects in the world of spiritulity to talk about.

quote:Originally posted by noraa_boy:

Actually, even though Christianity cannot be proven true, there are arguments for it to sway your gut feelings. I think that counts as support.

And just to answer faithdefend's challenge - I am agnostic because my part in the Christian god's(or any diety's) plan is apparently not important enough to warrant a personal visit or a sign. I would like at least a talking burning bush and I would give my arms and legs for what Gideon got in the bible. Heck, I'd go to hell to make sure that there really is a god.

[This message has been edited by noraa_boy (edited 01-21-2004).]

There are maybe some explainations for the reason why the Christian God does not come out and say that He exists. In the time of Moses and Gideon God had to reveal Himself in the form of the supernatural. The Isrealites had a temple where God existed that was seperate from the individual. If a person wanted to worship the Father, they had to go to the temple or the synagogue. Upon the death of Jesus and the resurrection, God no longer inhabited the temple, the vail was rent in two. The fact that Jesus said your body is the holy temple is significant. I said all this to come to this point, God no longer needs supernatural revelation but instead communicates to His Creations through their inner souls. God does not need the burning bush or the fleece to prove His existance, when one quiets there soul and listens within they will hear that still small voice of the Father which says, "Here I am, worship Me."

-You also say that your part in the plan of the Christian God is not important enough to reveal his existance. You and I and all other humans that have walked this Earth fit into His plan. The character of God has no facit of evil, therefore sin would seperate your fellowship and praise from the Father without a Sacrifice. Through Adam sin and death entered the world, God's nature is not evil but good, and evil has no fellowship with good. He provided an Ultimate Sacrifice so that He could inhabit my praises, your praise, and everyone's praises forever.

quote:Originally posted by faithdefend:

I said all this to come to this point, God no longer needs supernatural revelation but instead communicates to His Creations through their inner souls. God does not need the burning bush or the fleece to prove His existance, when one quiets there soul and listens within they will hear that still small voice of the Father which says, "Here I am, worship Me."



Please take your unsupported assertions somewhere else. I have never heard of the small voice of your god while quiet and meditating. I can only see myself(and my true self at that).

Let's put it this way. The Christian god knows exactly what I need to be convinced of his existence. Seeing as how he hasn't given it to me(I'm not convinced yet), we can make one of these conclusions:

1) He doesn't exist.

2) He doesn't want me to convinced.

3) He doesn't care if I'm convinced or not.

4) He wants to convince me but he can't. (Which would be strange given his omnipotence.)

Which conclusion would you pick? Have I missed out on other possible ones? If so, please inform me.

Also, what Jesus did was not the ultimate sacrifice, or anything like it. Would you not die to save us all if you knew that you would rise up in 3 days and go to heaven and enjoy existence as an all-powerful being for the rest of time? This is off-topic, but I'd be happy to discuss it with you.

[This message has been edited by noraa_boy (edited 01-22-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by noraa_boy:

Please take your unsupported assertions somewhere else. I have never heard of the small voice of your god while quiet and meditating. I can only see myself(and my true self at that).

Let's put it this way. The Christian god knows exactly what I need to be convinced of his existence. Seeing as how he hasn't given it to me(I'm not convinced yet), we can make one of these conclusions:

1) He doesn't exist.

2) He doesn't want me to convinced.

3) He doesn't care if I'm convinced or not.

4) He wants to convince me but he can't. (Which would be strange given his omnipotence.)

Which conclusion would you pick? Have I missed out on other possible ones? If so, please inform me.

Also, what Jesus did was not the ultimate sacrifice, or anything like it. Would you not die to save us all if you knew that you would rise up in 3 days and go to heaven and enjoy existence as an all-powerful being for the rest of time? This is off-topic, but I'd be happy to discuss it with you.

[This message has been edited by noraa_boy (edited 01-22-2004).]

Please forgive me for straying from the logic behind God, I realize that the last post was the theology behind God and you have no need for the theology if you do not know that He exists.

There is another proof that was missed:

1. He does exist and convinences through logic and science.

This is what I believe, God can be proven logically. There is an objective moral law, or absolutes. On the basis of the law of non-contridiction this fact can be proven. Either concrete absolutes exist, or concrete absolutes do not exist. It cannot be both ways logically. If you suppose that moral law doesnt exist, you have disproven yourself, in the fact that the statement is itself an absolute. (this is a basic example, for a better view of it, read some of my other posts.) Therefore, since absolutes exist, than there must be an absolute giver. Every time we argue over right and wrong we appeal to a higher law that we assume everyone is aware of and holds. If true conscience came from an ultimate lawgiver, we would expect to find exactly what we observe.

-On the scientific proofs, in the last 50 years of astrophysics, new statistical information has arisen that puts the random assembly of the protiens and molecules at improbablity. There has been ever increasing discoveries that show design in the universe.

-God says in His word, "the heavens declare my glory." On the basis of logic and new scientific discoveries God is shown.

14 billion years makes those 'minute possibilities' seem quite possible. Heh, guess you people who try to turn science against itself in attempts to prove God's existence never looked into the study of algorithms...damn shame, you make yourselves look retarded most of the time with the ignorance on full display.

faithdefend:

Please forgive me for straying from the logic behind God, I realize that the last post was the theology behind God and you have no need for the theology if you do not know that He exists.

I was only refering to your bit about the " still small voice of the Father which says, "Here I am, worship Me."". I don't think that it's part of the theology behind the Christian god. If it is, please cite verses from the bible to support this.

There is another proof that was missed:

1. He does exist and convinences through logic and science.

My point was that he has decided not to convince me of his existence for the time being. Why doesn't he just appear before me to convince me, especially since my eternal afterlife is supposedly at stake here?

This is what I believe, God can be proven logically. There is an objective moral law, or absolutes. On the basis of the law of non-contridiction this fact can be proven. Either concrete absolutes exist, or concrete absolutes do not exist. It cannot be both ways logically. If you suppose that moral law doesnt exist, you have disproven yourself, in the fact that the statement is itself an absolute. (this is a basic example, for a better view of it, read some of my other posts.) Therefore, since absolutes exist, than there must be an absolute giver. Every time we argue over right and wrong we appeal to a higher law that we assume everyone is aware of and holds. If true conscience came from an ultimate lawgiver, we would expect to find exactly what we observe.

Argument from morality, aye? I have to admit that I'm not well read on it, so I'll have to research a bit and then perhaps I can make a decent reply. I'd venture to say that morals might be relative though. What's moral for me might not be moral for the guy next door.

-On the scientific proofs, in the last 50 years of astrophysics, new statistical information has arisen that puts the random assembly of the protiens and molecules at improbablity. There has been ever increasing discoveries that show design in the universe.

Please cite these discoveries that show design in the universe. Claiming that your certain god exists even if there is indeed design to the universe would be a non-sequitor. How do you know that it's your god that is the one who was the designer etc.

Gee, I'll have to read up again on the argument from design.

-God says in His word, "the heavens declare my glory." On the basis of logic and new scientific discoveries God is shown.

How do you know that the bible is indeed the your god's word? Again, please cite some new scientific discoveries that show your god.

I do apologise for not being able to put together a terribly compelling rebuttal. I really do need to study more. Don't be offended if I don't reply to this thread anymore; I am admitting to my lack of knowledge at the moment.

[This message has been edited by noraa_boy (edited 01-22-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by faithdefend:

I want somebody to prove to me that God does not exist.

Whether or not "God" exists is not really in doubt. Once something is imagined, thought, or perceived through standard senses, it technically "exists" in some form or fashion, even if that form is simply that of an idea. The more it becomes discussed, the more people think about it, and the more widespread and deeply ingrained into the collective psyche the idea becomes. Your request cannot be fulfilled, ironically enough, even if you were the first to ask it, the very asking would render it impossible to achieve.

Ideas are a communicable virus spread by words and communication. Once you are infected you are never the same, even if you choose to reject an idea, it has still shaped you by making you make that choice or another. As stated in another thread, I will reiterate here.

Because someone believes in God, he/she/it exists. This holds true whether or not God actually created us or existed prior to our creation. However, just because a God exists does not necessarily make it the only god, nor does it make it exactly what it's believers think it to be. Sometimes those most heavily infected by an idea or conviction become slaves to the idea itself, ceasing to question or examine it further. Sometimes those infected by an idea rebel against it, or take offense to it's habitation of their consciousness...

We've all been infected by "God" as an idea...what seems to be happening mostly is a debate between the slaves to the idea and those who rebel against it. I personally choose to examine the idea objectively and study it's effects on those who are exposed to it.

-=CW=-

Proof that God(Jesus)does exist:

-He does amazing miracles in the world today through pastors/reg. people. Ex - A man was going to die because of stomach problems, he had it prayed for and a few days later, he had a totally new stomach! He makes the crippled walk at times. How does a stomach just appear? Its on cassette, too.

-People have died and went/starting going to Hell but then they were brought back to life by doctors or w/e. They saw hell and desribed it and there are books on it. Im pretty sure ppl have saw heaven too. So then Heaven and Hell exists which is in the Bible, so theres good proof of an afterlife and God. __Argue that!__

People lie and the evidence can't be examined. There, your arguement has severe flaws...that was easy.

You took the words right out of my mouth. And saved me a lot of obsolete typing action. Thank you.

quote:Originally posted by reveille24:

-People have died and went/starting going to Hell but then they were brought back to life by doctors or w/e. They saw hell and desribed it and there are books on it. Im pretty sure ppl have saw heaven too. So then Heaven and Hell exists which is in the Bible, so theres good proof of an afterlife and God. __Argue that!__

You believe in God yet you preach what the Bible does not say. May much shame be put on your shoulders.

Some of the most popular misconceptions about the bible are about Jesus' second coming. Some misconceptions are:

1 Immediately after death you are judged and then you are sent to heaven or hell right away.

2 There is some sort of rapture.

etc

etc.

Anyways whether you like it or not these are false stories. The only time people will see heaven or hell is after the second coming of Christ.

Second, no one can prove whether God exists or not. So those who are thinking posting there opinions: don't. Its quite worthless.

You either believe in GOd or you dont, I for one do not believe in God and religion, but I dont need to debate about it and argue. You should believe in what you believe in. Simple as that.

Funny thing is that we cannot picutre anything outside this universe, so by our own monkey logic we assume God is of this universe. Furthermore we believe that the creator, if it is self aware, has to be like us: judgemental, petty, etc...We on this space-time, type, existance, do not realize we are playing a game. God doesn't even know about our illusion, it just knows itself and us in it's image, perfect and complete.