I don't think god can possibly exist due to the fact that morals are relative. There techinically is no good and evil and so there really isn't any sin. If you can't sin then you really can't get into heaven or hell. The church is always changing what's sinning and whats fine. Like acknowledging gay priests and bishops. Things like that. I'm just saying if we as human beings created good and evil then we had to have created a god as well. It's like the crazy guy thinks shooting up everyone is the "right" thing to do. Know what I mean? But everyone else thinks it's "wrong" because they either A: were taught it's wrong and think taking life is wrong or B: wouldn't want to be killed so they think it's fucked up. Well anyways, thoughts and opinions are welcome.

Good point. I like having new theories every now and then, especailly when the person isn't like "Those god squad fags have another thing comin." Thank you for a well thought out theory.

Perhaps that's only what religious fanatics say the majority of the people are in fact faithless shells. It's amazing these brainwashing devices have lasted so long. Perhaps it is common sense that our natural law dictates adaptation to positive and negative stimulus. Maybe even more blunt with common sense is that we personify a lot of things including god. We deny what we feel, in place of what's acceptable, and no one seems to notice the world is going to shit because of it. What's worse we live in a forced denial, from all the "nessecary" crap shoved in our faces. I don't think it's evil nessicarily, it's just, that although our lives are in a sense easier, there is no proof that says that it's better.

Absolute morals could exist - not everyone would necassarily be moral in that case though. (the problem is, we can't determine whether morals are absolute on our own - it would require something along the lines of divine intervention to prove that they are)

[This message has been edited by alien8d (edited 01-23-2004).]

The Christian god is often depicted as being morally perfect. What is this based on? Is he perfect because he says he's perfect? Are there any laws that even he adheres to? Or is this a case of "might makes right"?

How the ignorant srtive so hard to prove there case when they have no idea of what it is they are speaking of.

The only laws on this world that we cannot break are the laws of nature, but they can be understood and mastered, that is because, although you are in this world, you are not of it. You exist beyond this, but you choose to represent yourself moment by moment, and in order to do that you need space-time. So you imagine space-time exists and you place yourself in an illusion. In fact, you get so caught up in the fact that this is an illusion, that you've forgotten what's outside the theatre; in a matter of speaking. Then, in doing this you forgot who you really are. If you did remember, then you would real-ize that you have complete control of this world. Everey one here can do this, you just have to feel it is so. Stop and think why you're riding an ox looking for an ox.

Proof please http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Haha, jk. I've given up on anyone being foolish enough to try proving spiritual thoughts...most realize they make asses of themselves if they try to prove it.

fuck you people, gods real man, god is good... man.... we need to give money to jesus so he can buy a new car... give your money you FUCKING SHEEP BASTARD STUPD FUCKING IDIOTS..... no offense but what the fuck?

Why the fuck would Jesus want a car?

So he could drive to church.

God doesn't want money, if he did, he would have invented money when he created the universe. No, let me reassure you money is nothing but a human invention.

The Church DOES NOT acknowledge gay priests. The church when you say "The Church" is the Catholic believers, who are the one of the hardcore groups who almost never change. mortal sins have not changed at all, though the lesser ones might...

Lets just face it, in essence, all rligions have the same base morals, and all religions have a set of rules with punishments/rewards.

God does not punish or reward, for your true self seeks nothing. I know you'll probably just dismiss what I say because you don't see it that way. Yet, our senses are so limited that it's stupid to think that they encompass complete reality. Take your one life, based soley on your senses, measure how long it lasts compared to the entirety of our universe, what is it? It is nothing but working for a living so we don't starve and can look acceptable to this crap we made. Now think of your life beyond your senses and as a creator of experience that changes constantly so that these experiences you seek can be made real. The choice is obviously yours, but why be miserable on purpose? Is that what you want out of life? I tell you this, whomever says that life is a test of suffering obviously does not understand life. Life is for creating the experiences that define you, nothing else.

I do agree with ilbastardoh about everything being under your control. That's religions "free will" or whatever you want to call it.

Lysergamideman is an idiot, I have no idea what he's talking about.

Here's an example to help move this topic along. God says though shalt not kill/murder/whatever. But then it's ok to go on holy wars killing/murdering hundreds of thousands of people. See, that just doesn't make sense. There really are no ethics or morals, just bullshit.

You're saying since religion is always changing, that means there must be no God?

Like the two are even interconnected.

Religion is the interpretation of how we perceive God. The fact that religion is always changing simply means that we interpret him differently as times change. This includes whether he (or it) exists or not.

Changing ignorance into enlightenment.

AYBABTU

The bit about going on holy wars is easy enough to explain. It's not okay to kill God's people, okay? But if God sanctions it, it's okay to thousands of other races of people because they are not God's people. You could think of the christian God as a powerful mafia don following that line of thought.

Not to bash but, The church is not the one who decides what is wrong or right it is the Bible. and as for catholics, their weird their beliefs don't even go along with the Bible. as for the contradictions in the Bible is the same way as the govnm't (USA) can murder someone because they say its okay, ie. capital punishment, but if not liegally sanctioned then they consider it wrong, ie. cold blooded murder. Any other questions i missed? do ask i kinda enjoy doing research; as i am really bored now.

I don't think god can possibly exist due to the fact that morals are relative. There techinically is no good and evil and so there really isn't any sin. If you can't sin then you really can't get into heaven or hell.

So killing children and drinking their blood is perfectly fine with you because it's not wrong.

The church is always changing what's sinning and whats fine. Like acknowledging gay priests and bishops. Things like that.

Things that only pertain to the institutions most heavily influenced by the modern world and NOT the most Traditional of Christian institutions like the above-mentioned "church."

I'm just saying if we as human beings created good and evil then we had to have created a god as well.

So, let me get this straight. Simply because we can choose to defy the code of ethics found as the lowest common denominator in every single religion and culture since the dawn of existence without immediate consequence, that MUST mean that the planets HAD TO HAVE fallen into a macrocosmically harmonious alignment without intelligent design.

Hmm....

It's like the crazy guy thinks shooting up everyone is the "right" thing to do. Know what I mean? But everyone else thinks it's "wrong" because they either A: were taught it's wrong and think taking life is wrong or B: wouldn't want to be killed so they think it's fucked up.

That works fine if you only go back a generation or two. Go to the dawn of the decision that killing people is "fucked up." Go to the first person to teach their children that taking life is wrong. Then when you come back to the common era of negligence, let me know what you come up with.

[ED: semantic error]

[This message has been edited by Tyrant (edited 01-26-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

a macrocosmically harmonious alignment

What's so macrocosmically harmonious about the universe? Seems pretty random to me.

you think of God as a person. God isnt a person, God is just God simple as that. not everythign has an explanation, we are just humans therefor God can exist because everythign cannot be explained. can u explain wuts in a black hole? no, no one can. somethign is there but we dont know because we havent seen it. same with God, no one can see God but it doesnt mean he isnt there...

quote:Originally posted by Living_biohazard:

you think of God as a person. God isnt a person, God is just God simple as that. not everythign has an explanation, we are just humans therefor God can exist because everythign cannot be explained. can u explain wuts in a black hole? no, no one can. somethign is there but we dont know because we havent seen it. same with God, no one can see God but it doesnt mean he isnt there...

Does it mean he is?

quote:Originally posted by noraa_boy:

The Christian god is often depicted as being morally perfect. What is this based on? Is he perfect because he says he's perfect? Are there any laws that even he adheres to? Or is this a case of "might makes right"?



this one is coming, essentially, off the top of my head and may not be accurate in the dogmatic sense:

it seems that you misunderstand what god is. first, what are you? what is the essence of you? your will? that is the stuff of god. God's Will. god himself is the rules, he cannot violate them just as he cannot deny his own existence. his moral perfection is the only possible state he can have. it is as an example of a monotheistic objective code.



quote:Originally posted by Lysergamideman:

How the ignorant srtive so hard to prove there case when they have no idea of what it is they are speaking of.

how the ignorant strive to undercut crediblity with silly character attacks.

quote:Originally posted by themanwhovsthetree:

Lets just face it, in essence, all rligions have the same base morals, and all religions have a set of rules with punishments/rewards

and, generally, almost all moralities are pretty much the same. so?

quote:Originally posted by The_Homicidal_Maniac:

Here's an example to help move this topic along. God says though shalt not kill/murder/whatever. But then it's ok to go on holy wars killing/murdering hundreds of thousands of people. See, that just doesn't make sense. There really are no ethics or morals, just bullshit.

why must it make sense? must God explain his reasons to you?

secondly, how do you know that these actions were "ok"?



quote:Originally posted by lohioff:

Not to bash but, The church is not the one who decides what is wrong or right it is the Bible. and as for catholics, their weird their beliefs don't even go along with the Bible. as for the contradictions in the Bible is the same way as the govnm't (USA) can murder someone because they say its okay, ie. capital punishment, but if not liegally sanctioned then they consider it wrong, ie. cold blooded murder. Any other questions i missed? do ask i kinda enjoy doing research; as i am really bored now.

firstly, no one follows the bible exactly "right." that cannot even manage to agree on one common translation!

secondly, contradiction in the bible is very different from contradiction in the government. the government does not claim to be an absolutely true way of life. if the government is contradictory, it is a failing of the people (governments do not exist without people) whereas if the bible is contradictory, it is false.

finally, murder isn't simply "ok" for the government. if you reduce it down to such basic terms, the god is a murderer; remember the flood?

quote:Originally posted by Living_biohazarrd:

you think of God as a person. God isnt a person, God is just God simple as...no one can see God but it doesnt mean he isnt there...

so, because we cannot at this time explain something means that we should just not try?

damn, that was longwinded.

AoZ

God is Infinity. Right/Wrong it dosen't matter, it is all contained within this "thing". It is unfathomable to the human mind. Because God is infinty, any theories on 'who' or 'what' God is hold true for whoever is holding the belief. The only way to know God is to completely fathom infinity which is impossible from the incredibly narrow vantage of a human consciousness.

"If you've got enough naivety and you've got conviction then the answer is perfect for you" Greg Graffin - Bad Religion

God is everything, don't let christin beliefs dumb it down into something as stupid as some Higher being who created lesser beings to toy with and then throw into a burning pit if they be 'bad'.

It is infinite and anything can happen. Spiritual beings existing on different planes that we cannot experience is totally plausible in my mind. We are inside it, the only way to fathom what is going on is to look from outside 'the thing' or to be 'the thing'. The situation, experience, what ever you want to call it( God maybe) is ridiculously ludicrously overboard to say the least, I would say infinite but we cannot fathom that.



[This message has been edited by DestruKtiKon (edited 01-30-2004).]

quote:

I don't think god can possibly exist due to the fact that morals are relative. There techinically is no good and evil and so there really isn't any sin. If you can't sin then you really can't get into heaven or hell. The church is always changing what's sinning and whats fine. Like acknowledging gay priests and bishops. Things like that. I'm just saying if we as human beings created good and evil then we had to have created a god as well. It's like the crazy guy thinks shooting up everyone is the "right" thing to do. Know what I mean? But everyone else thinks it's "wrong" because they either A: were taught it's wrong and think taking life is wrong or B: wouldn't want to be killed so they think it's fucked up. Well anyways, thoughts and opinions are welcome.





I don't know whether god exists, but to me religion just seems like a means of control. Things are a sin or morally wrong because they may adversally affect the community or society as a whole. IMO the only way for primitive people in the past to order themselves was to be fearful of a more powerful thing than themselves so they would desist with destructive behaviour otherwise there would have been constant chaos and no chance of social evolution.

OK, here's a couple of examples that even show the bible doesn't know what it's talking about when it comes to right and wrong.

1st one:

Ezekiel 20

25 I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by;

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Ezekiel+20:25

This one basically says god gave us some bad laws.

2nd one:

Jeremiah 8

8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,

for we have the law of the LORD ,"

when actually the lying pen of the scribes

has handled it falsely?

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Jeremiah+8:8

This one alludes that the scribes who wrote the "word of god" fucked it up

This page has an entire list of contradictions in the bible:

http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html

Pay more attention to the ones about stealing, killing and lying.

See, even the bible doens't come to an exact agreement on what's right or not. Like I stated earlier it's pretty hard to sin with no good or evil but now it's impossible if the trusted bible doesn't know what going on. I think my theory (which probly isn't mine because I'm pretty sure someone has already thought of it already but anyways) is pretty damn solid. Any other thoughts and ideas?

Sir, don't take things out of context and you will see the world isn't to bad.

dude, are you guys like stoned or something? the Catholic church is CORRUPT! they pray the saints, ack! do we need mediators to pray to God, I don't think so... and if we do it's Jesus or Muhammed, or both. the Crusades were due to the action of what dude, the Pope! on what basis? it's a corrupt one i'll tell you. yes, it is due to the catholic church that the christian religion is what it is today. but what is the christian religion? the christian religion in my opinion contradicts the Bible. where I live (kentucky, right in the middle of the fucking Bible belt...) practictly everyone believes that all you have to do is to believe in God and Jesus, ask god for forgiveness of your sins, and BOOM, you get to heaven when you die. so my ideas are pretty radical to just about everyone i know. i think we dont need mediators to pray to God, Jesus told us to pray to God, not him. but i must admit that my belief is not perfect for Jesus said that you could get to God only through him, but what does that mean exactly? and let's talk about the church of England. in the Bible it clearly states that divorce is wrong. but Henry VIII made it legal...need i explain, hopefully you all know the story?

Actually the idea that morality is relative is only a fairly recent construct in western culture it has only been popular for less than 50 years. The basic intuition for most humans (with a few notable exceptions for a variety of sociological reasons) is similar i.e "hurting is bad helping is good".

I read an intresting thing on "scientifically proving God" while i was away- when i find the quote i'll post it, but it had to do with the fact that to be able to prove something scientificly, you need to have a repetable experiment (etc.) that you can observe and gain the same outcome. To do this you have to be able to harness/control the subject in some manner.

When it comes to an omnipotent God, being able to control him... well you can see the point.

Then there's the argument that God by definition transcends the physical universe and its physical laws, thereby making attempts at proof futile, not to mention redundant.