I'm not just saying this for the simple reason that he exists in many parts of the Bible, but because Satan is the opposite of God's good. If not for evil, what is good ? If no evil, then no good. If no good then no evil. If good, then evil. Does this make sense ?

IMO, if Satan were to be destroyed, i think that would be the end of Heaven. I don't the struggle between good and evil is meant to be won, but brought into balance.

[This message has been edited by Billy Idol (edited 01-27-2004).]

I think even the most oblivious of Christians know this already...

Rather than pass this off with a nonchalant response, I will actually begin research on this topic. Here we go...

Clement of Rome taught that God rules the world with a right hand and a left hand, the right Christ, the left Satan.

-CG Jung

According to the text of Jung and Christianity, by Wallace Clift, Jung stated that the image of God as seen by Christians was incorrect, because Satan was, in truth, a part of God. God, often alluded to as the "Self", was a union of two polar opposites, namely, holy and evil. He suggests that Satan is the missing arm in what would be the Holy Quaternity, but was rejected in the imperfect vision of God as totally good in favor of the Holy Trinity. Basically, it would have been the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost, and the Unholy Demon.

What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?

-Job 2:10

In the Old Testament, Satan was not separate from God, but truly an appendage. As many know, the word "satan" means "adversary"; however, this was intended as the adversary to Man, not to God.

Who has only to speak to make things exist? Who commands, if not the Lord?

From where, if not from the mouth of the Most High, do evil and good come?

-Lamentations 3:37-38, The Jerusalem Bible

Behold, two Biblical books describing the same instance:

The anger of Yahweh was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go number Israel and Judah!

-II Samuel 24:1

Satan stood up against Israel and provoked David to number Israel.

-I Chronicles 21:1

I turn to the book Good and Evil in Myth and Legend for my next source:

Satan's intention [In Genesis 9:6], using Biblical quotation to his own advantage, is to tempt Abraham to go against God's order. Yet as all Jewish writings point out, Yezer Hara, Satan, and all angelic beings, Good or Evil, are the creations of the One True God and are under his control. They are not separate demonic beings arising from some cosmic struggle with a Good God.

Interesting point I never knew about Gnosticism:

Gnosticism, which had many forms, taught that there are two gods, one Good God (the father of Jesus) and one Evil one (the creator, who is the God of the Old Testament).

In conclusion... Evil and Good have always existed, and they all come from God. One does not oppose the other, but both work simultaneously for a higher principle beyond our reckoning - God.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Evil and Good have always existed, and they all come from God.

Evidence please.

Satan is not gods opposite.

They exist much like light and dark exist. Technically there is no darkness, only the absence of light.

Ugh... I'm drunk...

Cheers,

Lost

If you christian and bevile the bible it DOES say god created both god and evil.



“I am Jehovah, and there is none else; besides me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known me; that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me: I am Jehovah, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; {bold}I make peace, and create evil.{/bold} I am Jehovah, who does all these things” (Isa. 45:5-7).

satan was a fabrication before christianity was invented

Evidence please.

The very foundation of the idea of cooperation and social stability rests on the exclusion of what is Wrong and an encouragement of what is Right. This foundation has been consistent for all time, for all cultures, and for every human being since the advent of humanity.

Quite a lot of sources to cite, so I'll do that another time.

Oh, and just to clarify: I mentioned the fact that it exists in every culture in any era for all humanity to point out that it was not a human invention, but rather came from a suprahuman source (i.e. God).

Why is the fact that most people have the same system of morals evidence of divine intervention rather than of a genetic disposition towards actions that advance society?

"Why is the fact that most people have the same system of morals evidence of divine intervention rather than of a genetic disposition towards actions that advance society?"

Someone got kicked in the nuts http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Three points.

1)Todays Christianity commits a logical fallacy with their concepts of "good and "evil". They attempt to make "Satan" a seperate agent from "God". In doing this they forget they also claim that God is omnipotent, able to create all and control all, these claims are contradictory. God cannot control Satan (or his infection of "evil" in humans anyway), yet he is omnipotent. Therefore what LostCause is saying is correct, at least in a Christian system, because this allows God to be omnipotent he is able to control the absence of good or "evil". This questions the fundemental "evil is because of volition" doctrine, this would contradict his omnipotence.

2) quote:Various religions have approached the subject of evil in different ways. The Abrahamic (Western) beliefs use Satan, created in the late writings of the Old Testament, as the personification of evil. Originally the ancient Hebrew religion maintained that evil came from God, as punishment for man’s evil misdeeds; but a crisis in the Hebrew faith made it necessary to change the doctrine. In 597 BCE Jerusalem surrendered to the Babylonians, and the city was subsequently destroyed in 586 BCE; this began half a century of Jewish captivity and exile. By the end of this period it was beginning to look like Yahweh (the god of Abraham) was unjustly tormenting the Hebrew people.

Reading the books of the Old Testament from the period encompassing the exile demonstrates the doctrinal problems the religion was experiencing. The followers began to assume a “doomsday” attitude, and concluded that God had broken his covenant due to the disobedience of his people. After decades of trying to appease Yahweh without success it became apparent that the religion, in its present form, provided no hope to the believers.

In 539 BCE King Cyrus the Great of Persia conquered Babylonia, and freed the Jews in 538 BCE; earning himself a messiah reference in the Bible. The Persian duality concept of good (ormazd) and evil (ahriman) led the Old Testament writers to develop a similar doctrine; and between 538 BCE and 518 BCE, the contemporary characterization of Satan was first introduced. The Ha-satan of old was actually God’s assistant who, while Yahweh was asleep or preoccupied, spied on mankind: reporting people’s sins to God, who would then bring evil upon these transgressors. Changing Ha-satan, God’s friend; into Satan, a god-like enemy, allowed the religion to blame what was previously perceived as punishment from God on a new and opposing figure, creating an Abrahamic form of duality.I would further, when the church was converting pagan followers they absorbed as much of there culture as they cold, but it couldn't absorb it all so, the church had to reject some of the noble pagan virtue (Aquinas was intramental in refuting the pagan virtues)

3)To the original poster as you see monotheism and "evil" can and have co-existed.

-Part of point two quoted from www.reasoned.org (http://www.reasoned.org)

-As always, Crusading in the name of The Ugly Fish, our Lord-

Why is the fact that most people have the same system of morals evidence of divine intervention rather than of a genetic disposition towards actions that advance society?

Why are these two ideas separate?

good and evil, right and wrong, joy and sorrow...

we are a species of dualities, defining ALL reality with black and white; when it is only YOUR reality that is black and white.

it probably sucks when you get fired, the guy who gets your job is greatful.

good and evil do not exist as physical entities as it has been suggested, the concepts of good and evil are as illusory as joy and sorrow, where both have about as many definitions as there are people.

"Why is the fact that most people have the same system of morals evidence of divine intervention rather than of a genetic disposition towards actions that advance society?"

this is about as incorrect as it can get.

if you really think we have a genetic disposition towards actions that advance society you are about as foolish as the fool you heard that from.

if that is true, why did it take man 500 million years to grow beyond a group environment to something even resembling a "city".

if true also, why did it take another 10,000 years to get rid of the absolute ruler?

i believe it is more correct to say that man has a genetic disposition to advance HIS OWN IDEA OF SOCIETY, in the previous context, war would not exist, could not exist because the loss of life would not benefit either society, however losing some citizens to wipe out a culture inconsistant with your own increasing your land mass allowing for more of YOUR type of people to exist, which requires again expansion.

we forget that had germany won world war II, hitler would be considered the greatest man ever, but he lost.

we mainly determine right and wrong, good and evil using the exact same criteria we define winners and losers with.

since the bible has been used so completely to further the idea of an absolute idea of good and an absolute idea of evil, let's use it show otherwise....

"Genesis 15: And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

funny how the judeo-christian religion so full of definitions of rights and wrongs, what is good, what is evil; should absolutely overlook without an even a glance what is implied by the first sin.

it wasn't temptation we succumbed to, it was genetic disposition...

"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat"

do what thou wilt.

as a sidenote so no anarchists start using that ideal to advance theirs.

anarchy would work, if everyone thought like you do, as would the system you endure, if you thought like they do.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Why are these two ideas separate?

Unless you can give evidence that a supernatural being is responsible for our genetic makeup, your claim is worthless.

[This message has been edited by Craftian (edited 01-28-2004).]

Thank you, Quetzalcoatl.

Sharp nick. But, I think you spelled it wrong. It think it's Quetzacatl.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Oh, and just to clarify: I mentioned the fact that it exists in every culture in any era for all humanity to point out that it was not a human invention, but rather came from a suprahuman source (i.e. God).

To assume such a thing is to grossly downplay the human imagination and capacity for invention.

We invent nuclear bombs and send men to the moon. I think we could invent a rationalization for basic social contract theory.

quote:Clement of Rome taught that God rules the world with a right hand and a left hand, the right Christ, the left Satan.

-CG Jung

interesting. kinda like some 4 year old playing with action figures.