Ok this is refering to the christian version of god. how can god be perfect if we as humans are not perfect. if god is a perfect being it is not within his capabilities to create anyting but perfection. perfection only makes perction otherwise it can no longer be considered perfect.

well said...

Now a christian will reply saying "Well god is so perfect, the laws od perfectionism don't apply to him so he can make non perfect creatures..." http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:if god is a perfect being it is not within his capabilities to create anyting but perfection.perfection only makes perction otherwise it can no longer be considered perfect.



It is well within the capabilites of a perfect being (omnipotent and omniscient) to create imperfection. Look at the definition of omnipotent (all powerful) if this is true then God can create anything, even imperfect beings.

Perfection is subjective. There is no definition of perfection that does not rely on an opinion.

quote:Perfection is subjective. There is no definition of perfection that does not rely on an opinion.

I digress, omnipotence and omniscience constitute "perfection". Therefore it is objective. Your catagorization of perfect is also undermined by the fact that anything with a maximal status can be done "perfectly".

quote:I digress, omnipotence and omniscience constitute "perfection".

According to whom? To you? Could you show me, where as canon, perfection must include omnipotence and omniscience? Subjective means that it relies or is based upon an opinion. To you and to others, perfection include omnipotence and omniscience, to me it does not.

quote:Your catagorization of perfect is also undermined by the fact that anything with a maximal status can be done "perfectly".



And anything without at "maximal status" could also be categorized as perfect. You only listed one possibility and omitted the rest; how does that prove anything?

There's a book called The Many Faces Of God, that explores the idea that "god" is fallible and that he changes his mind about things.

* One a side note, I - just recently've gotten into a book called Dominion that's about how human coexist with animals, but it really a psychological profile of our species and how we exist in the world. I find it very interesting that there's a lot of parallels to the way we exist, according to Dominion and the way "god" exists, according to The Many Faces Of God.

Cheers,

Lost

Sorry if this is a little off-topic:

How do we know the Christian god to be morally perfect, for instance? What do we judge him by? As far as I know, there are no laws that are above the Christian god to judge him by or else we could cut him out and just base our morality or those rules. In light of that, it seems that moral goodness is totally subject to the Christian god's whim. Does the Christian god's whim have anything to do with an absolute moral standard? If not, then morals are not objective. They are just what the most powerful being in existence reckons is correct. In other words, might makes right. However, if the Christian god's whim does has something to do with an absolute moral standard, then isn't the morality argument that theists use refuted?

[This message has been edited by noraa_boy (edited 02-03-2004).]

There is no right or wrong outside of what serves you. We do not choose to know ourselves as murderers, so we look down on it. We know that when we lie we create more problems than we solve so we say it's wrong from experience. We believe stealing is wrong because we believe in possesions. Yet if we didn't believe in possesions our ideas about stealing would be very different. I would say that morality is subjective when interacted with each other, but morality becomes objective when viewed from the individual towards him or herself.

God cannot be perfect because he sins (orders adultery, kills, jealousy). I don't see why he couldn't create imperfect things.



Peace.

We as Creation are fused in the Tantric form of an almost Cartesian dualism - spiritually liberated yet physically bound. In this fusion, we are imperfect. As was intended from the start.

Im curious as to how you come to the conclusion that 'perfection only makes perfection', spyxero.

Also, perfection is NOT objective. Thats stupid. Saying 'omnipotence and omniscience constitute "perfection"' simply means an omnipotent being is [as a result of omnipotence] perfect, not that omnipotence is required for perfection. How could that be so? Saying perfection is objective would mean theres only one state of 'perfection'; whether you take a human being or a table lamp, for them to be objectively perfect they would have to become exactly the same.

[This message has been edited by SEN D-F (edited 02-03-2004).]

my thinking on this would be if god were a perfect being he did infact create perfection IE adam and eve but also gave them there freedom of there own will which lead to temptation of saten. if i remember correct was the one who wanted all perfect and like beings and for this he was shunned god on the other hand choose freedom of your own mind.. and look were we are if we were all perfect we wouldn't do anything we would just stand there not doing or saying anything..

-warweed12

-warweed12

The Christian god is supposedly perfect in one way that he always has a choice but he always makes the right one. This quality was obviously lacking in Adam and Eve for they made a wrong choice. In light of that, they were not created perfect by that definition above(which I think is a valid one). A perfect being cannot screw up.

By your definition of perfectness, the Christian god would just stand somewhere and not do or say anything. This is obviously not the case.

Truly there is no such thing as perfect, perfection is the view/opinion of each individual.

Ex. You may think that Britney Spears ass is perfect, however there is someone out there that completely disagrees with this. Does that mean that either one of you is right no but in your mind it still holds true.

Perfection is in the eye of the beholder.

Also Britney spears hotness is over rated i've nailed better lookin chicks than her as im sure others have shes a tight blonde get over it!

God is perfect as nature is perfect, or the way mathematics flows perfectly.