As I thumbed through the threads, someone made a very valid point on Angels. He said that angels have NO free will. Humans were the only beings created in "God's image" and thus, were granted free will. What I want to know is, how was Lucifer able to defy god, create his own kingdom in heaven and pursuay thousands of angels to be in league with him? How can this be possible if free will is something angels are not supposed to have?

*I don't take the bible literally nor do I belive in it. I just want the opinion of people who do. Or at least some intelligent replies from those that know the story of Lucifer.*

Perhaps the people who wrote the Bible were drunk at the time? It's my firm belief that they were.

This has got to be the dumbest contradiction in the book. It just doesn't make sense! But then again, what part of the bible does??

What youve read in the bible isnt true...

Me and God are the best of friends...

We play ping pong and watch football all day...

He just got pissed because i beat him so many times that he started all these rumors about me...

The story about Lucifer being cast from heaven isn't even in the Bible.

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

The story about Lucifer being cast from heaven isn't even in the Bible.

It's not? Well, this is what everyone's being taught in Sunday school! Well, where the hell did they get it from then?

It's just another contradiction...don't look into it too much. But it is interesting to think about...

Whenever something unexplained happens in the bible, there's a simple solution: A wizard did it.

To my knowledge, only the torah really goes in deep about the fall of lucifer. The bible really never says that much, it doesn't even mention adams first wife

quote:Originally posted by NyMosy:

Perhaps the people who wrote the Bible were drunk at the time? It's my firm belief that they were.

I belive that too.When I od'on DXM last year I really belived I was jesus.

I'm curious if anyone has an answer. Besides general knowledge has the Catholic church offically recongize Lucifer and his fall from grace which leads into the creation of Hell? Realizing that the book of revelations is a prophecy, I think one of the more interesting things to think about is how it isn't included in the bible but book of revelations has the devil defeated and chained for "1000" -or "10,000"- years (sorry doing this off top of my head). But then is re-released? Those amounts of years is symbolic also but does anyone have the answer to either of those questions.

Like someone said, Lucifers fall from Grace isnt even in the Bible. Its a fabricated story to make the thought of Satan and Hell more interesting and fill in some gaps. Thats it.

Look on the bible as the official history written by the winners of the great war.

Just because angels were created with out free will does not mean they would remain without free will forever. If each angel had a specific task then they would each gain complexity with each experience completing their task.

Think of angels as supernatural robots. At first the robots are blank slates with only their programming. But over time they learn and become sentient. The only way to prevent this from happening would be to wipe there memories every so often or destroy them after a set period of time.

Now the creator obvious didn't do this either for ethical reasons or logical reasons know only to hir self.

Thus the angels became self aware.

After that? why do all slaves turn on their masters?

quote:Originally posted by prozak_jack:

Whenever something unexplained happens in the bible, there's a simple solution: A wizard did it.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

A while back I started a thread that posed the same question(or close to it) and I still don't see how lucifer could have rebelled but if you care to go back a very long time and see the thread it may help you but im not sure because they got into a whole other very complicated matter that I found hard to follow.

quote:Originally posted by Finn:

I'm curious if anyone has an answer. Besides general knowledge has the Catholic church offically recongize Lucifer and his fall from grace which leads into the creation of Hell?

I will ask my teacher tomorrow seeing how she is a nun she shoul;d know and if she doesnt it will be just one more question t add to the very long list of unanswered questions. That or she will start crying about how she just wants the Holy Spirit to come down and grace us so that we can understand. But I will be sure to give you answer tomorrow.

quote:Think of angels as supernatural robots. At first the robots are blank slates with only their programming. But over time they learn and become sentient. The only way to prevent this from happening would be to wipe there memories every so often or destroy them after a set period of time.

that doesnt make sense to me, you cant grow a free will, or else my computer or my toaster would have grown one by now.

quote:Originally posted by Ms. Death:

To my knowledge, only the torah really goes in deep about the fall of lucifer.

well, the torah is part of the old testament, and it doesn't talk about it, so they must have gotten the story straight out of their asses

quote:Originally posted by wayward intellect:

Look on the bible as the official history written by the winners of the great war.

Just because angels were created with out free will does not mean they would remain without free will forever. If each angel had a specific task then they would each gain complexity with each experience completing their task.

Think of angels as supernatural robots. At first the robots are blank slates with only their programming. But over time they learn and become sentient. The only way to prevent this from happening would be to wipe there memories every so often or destroy them after a set period of time.

Now the creator obvious didn't do this either for ethical reasons or logical reasons know only to hir self.

Thus the angels became self aware.

After that? why do all slaves turn on their masters?

Angels were solely created to be God's minions. There is no info that suggests they developed free will.

The Origin of the Lucifer Story

By Elroy Willis



If you ask the average person on the street who Lucifer is, many or maybe even most people will tell you some story about Lucifer being an angel who was cast out of heaven because he wanted to take over heaven or the "throne of God."

Interestingly, the Bible doesn't really say that, at least with regards to some actual Lucifer character being anything other than a shining planet or "star" that everyone can see with their own eyes.

The story involves a supposed "War in Heaven," which many people seem to believe in or take seriously, despite them not being able to point to some actual "heaven" where the war is taking place, or took place, or even to some "hell," where the supposed Lucifer/Satan character is currently chained up, ever since Jesus supposedly defeated Satan on the cross.

Mom and Pop believe or believed that Lucifer was a fallen angel, and so does the local preacher, so why should anyone question such an idea?

Well, there are plenty of reasons, actually...

If you do a Bible search, you'll find that the word "Lucifer" is only found in the following passage, and interestingly enough, isn't found in most of the Bible translations, but just a few, such as the KJV and the NKJV.

Isaiah 14:12 (KJV)

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!"

Isaiah 14:12 (NKJV)

"How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!"

Other versions of the Bible don't use the word "Lucifer."

Isaiah 14:12 (NIV)

"How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn!"

Isaiah 14:12 (NASB)

"How you have fallen from heaven, star of the morning, son of the dawn!"

Isaiah 14:12 (NLT)

"How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning!"

Isaiah 14:12 (RSV)

"How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn!"

Isaiah 14:12 (YLT)

"How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn!"

The original Hebrew, or what seems to be the earliest rendition of the story that I've come across, reads "O Helel, son of Shahar."

Shahar was an ancient god of the dawn, and Helel was his son, the morning star which we now call Venus. Shahar had a twin brother named Shalem, which was associated with dusk and perhaps with the evening appearance of Venus in several ancient legends. According to several dictionaries, Jerusalem means "House of Shalem," which has ties to the worship of Venus under its name as goddess or bringer of light.

Below is a Bible verse which talks about people worshipping the planet Venus as the "Queen of Heaven." They were apparently quite happy and prosperous.

Jeremiah 44:17 (NIV)

"We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm."

Some scholars say that the above is talking about worship of the moon, and the goddess Diana/Artemis, who was worshipped by the Greeks and Romans and called "Queen of Heaven" as well, while others claim it is referring to Venus/Asherah/Ashtoreth/Ishtar/Isis.

The idea of "Go in peace" or "Peace be with you" originated from stories of Venus going into the supposed underworld at night, and wishing her a safe journey through some imagined underworld of darkness. "Shalem" turned into "Shalom" over time.

Even if the above verse about some "Queen of Heaven" is talking about the moon instead of the planet Venus, the same sentiments apply to it as well, since both the moon and Venus were considered fertility goddesses. I personally think it refers to the planet Venus, but others disagree, and think it refers to the moon. Others think it refers to the star Sirius, which was also a fertility goddess which became visible right before the Nile river flooded each year.

Regardless, it seems to refer to some actual heavenly object that everyone can see with their own eyes if they know when and where to look.

At certain times, Venus can be visible in the morning, yet not visible in the evening, or in a different position than it was in the morning, so many ancient cultures had two different names for Venus. One for the morning appearance, or morning star, and a different name for the evening appearance, or evening star. To the ancients, the planets were mystical sources of light, which moved around differently than actual stars, so they made up stories about them, gave them names, deified them even, and invented elaborate stories about them, such as the one about Venus being "cast out of the high heavens" because of some imagined battle in heaven which never really happened in reality.

Back to the Bible, looking at the rest of the Isaiah verse, we can see how the imagery of Venus not being able to rise up to the heights of the clouds and among the "stars of God" comes into play through the poetry/taunt.

Isaiah 14:13-15 (KJV)

"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

Personifying Venus as a god or goddess or fallen angel, stories were made up to explain why it couldn't rise up into the high heavens where the sun and moon and outer planets roam in the sky. "Most High" was a description or title used to refer to the planet Jupiter by several different ancient societies. Some societies also called Saturn the "Most High" as well, because it was considered the outermost planet at the time.

According to many ancient mythologies, when the sun and the moon and the different planets disappear at night, or during different times of the year, they travel into some mythical underworld of darkness, or some grave where demons and spirits who want to stop the sun or other planets from rising exist.

Venus, or the Queen of Heaven, in all her forms/names, ends up victorious, and rises once again in the morning after disappearing for different periods of time throughout the year. Much of the poetry and stories written about Venus and its travels through the sky and into some supposed underworld are quite imaginative and filled with all kinds of imagery which tends to hide the fact that the stories or poetry are actually talking about a planet, and its movements or appearances in the sky, instead of talking about some invisible goddess named "Venus" who lives in some invisible heaven or spirit world that nobody can actually see with their own eyes.

If the ancient people knew the earth was a planet, and that the sun and planets don't actually go into some "underworld" or "grave" at night, then they never would have invented stories about the sun or the planets dying or being cast out of the high heavens, or being reborn when they reappeared. They did the best they could to try to explain things, but they got quite a few things wrong.

Even though the myths surrounding the movements of the heavenly objects and their imaginary journey into some make-believe underworld are just fiction, the actual observations of those objects themselves serve a useful purpose in measuring the passage of time, and the changing of the seasons and prediction of floods and tides and so on.

Looking back to the Bible, and at the beginning of Isaiah 14, you can see that this passage is a taunt against the king of Babylon. The stories and myths about Venus being "cast out of heaven" are compared to the downfall of the king of Babylon.

Isaiah 14:3-4 (KJV)



"On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended!"

The taunt basically says "You will be cut down to the ground just like the planet Venus, which is only visible near the horizon and goes into the grave every night, and can never rise high in the sky. The king of Babylon is defeated, just like Venus, or Lucifer, was supposedly "cast out of heaven" and left to roam to and fro near and through the earth.

The writer of Revelation claims that Jesus actually referred to himself as the "Morning Star" which presents a problem with the idea of Satan being some fallen angel named Lucifer or morning star, when Jesus also referred to himself as the morning star.

Rev 22:16 (NIV)

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

Jesus calls himself the morning star, just like Venus was a morning star and a goddess of love to the Romans, and Jesus is supposed to express the idea of unconditional love, just like Venus and many of its ancient personifications expressed ideas of love and beauty and youth and brightness. The Lucifer story is handed down out of ignorance for the most part. Some people actually believe it, and tell it to other people. The Mormons went a little crazy with the story, and got caught with their pants down so to speak.

From: http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml

"So why is Lucifer a far bigger problem to Mormons? Mormons claim that an ancient record (the Book of Mormon) was written beginning in about 600 BC, and the author in 600 BC supposedly copied Isaiah in Isaiah's original words. When Joseph Smith pretended to translate the supposed 'ancient record', he included the Lucifer verse in the Book of Mormon. Obviously he wasn't copying what Isaiah actually wrote. He was copying the King James Version of the Bible. Another book of LDS scripture, the Doctrine & Covenants, furthers this problem in 76:26 when it affirms the false Christian doctrine that "Lucifer" means Satan. This incorrect doctrine also spread into a third set of Mormon scriptures, the Pearl of Great Price, which describes a war in heaven based, in part, on Joseph Smith's incorrect interpretation of the word "Lucifer" which only appears in Isaiah."

The bottom line is that Lucifer isn't some fallen angel, but merely a Latin name used to refer to the planet Venus, which can't be seen high in the sky and so was considered a "fallen angel" by some of the ancient myth-makers and storytellers.

Additionally, there isn't and never was some actual war going on in some invisible "heaven" that nobody can actually see. The war was just made up by ancient storytellers attempting to explain the things they saw going on up in the night sky, and sometimes the day sky, during events such as eclipses and planetary conjunctions.

If the church you go to teaches that Lucifer is really some fallen angel who was cast out of the high heavens in some act caused by his pride or defiance of some invisible god, then you should print this out and give it to your pastor or preacher or church leader, and teach 'em something they don't already know.



Hope that helps.

^^^Interesting.

Quite.

DgenR8,

Thanks for the feedback, that was an excellent post. It's just amazing how much this story is accepted as gospel in the christian religion, and to find out it was all made up! Not even the bible backs it up. I guess it's purpose is just another fear tactic to get people to believe God's victory over Satan.

quote:Originally posted by wayward intellect:

Look on the bible as the official history written by the winners of the great war.

Just because angels were created with out free will does not mean they would remain without free will forever. If each angel had a specific task then they would each gain complexity with each experience completing their task.

Think of angels as supernatural robots. At first the robots are blank slates with only their programming. But over time they learn and become sentient. The only way to prevent this from happening would be to wipe there memories every so often or destroy them after a set period of time.

Now the creator obvious didn't do this either for ethical reasons or logical reasons know only to hir self.

Thus the angels became self aware.

After that? why do all slaves turn on their masters?

nicely put.

quote:Originally posted by Veronyka:

As I thumbed through the threads, someone made a very valid point on Angels. He said that angels have NO free will. Humans were the only beings created in "God's image" and thus, were granted free will. What I want to know is, how was Lucifer able to defy god, create his own kingdom in heaven and pursuay thousands of angels to be in league with him? How can this be possible if free will is something angels are not supposed to have?

*I don't take the bible literally nor do I belive in it. I just want the opinion of people who do. Or at least some intelligent replies from those that know the story of Lucifer.*

Perhaps this explanation will help make it more plausible for you:

Angels, as they are called today, were created without free will, but were instilled with only desire to perform god's will and to love god's creations as he loved them. You can think of them as machines, or programs, created by God to perform certain functions of the universe and his will. Because of this lack of free will, they were as limited in interpretation of "spirit of the law" and "intent of the task" as a computer or program...garbage in, garbage out, so to speak....This is the pivotal paradigm for the rest of the explanation...

Lucifer was of the highest rank of angels, being the first and most trusted and loved of the angels(servitors) and tasked with more duties and responsibilities. Due to the programming and order, he was given fealty by other lesser angels as being more comprehensively equipped to distribute clarifications on god's will, being so close to him and trusted by him.

When a quandry arose within Lucifer's programming that pitted his programmed love for humanity (put there by god) against his direct order from god not to interfere (put there by god), his prime directive and oldest programming won out and he moved to "defy" god by obeying god, bringing enlightenment to humanity to properly arm them for the darkness to come, which unbeknown to him and his followers was caused by that very enlightenment. He knew only that Humanity was coming upon a dark time and his love for them drove him to act.

For that he was cast out as one who defied god...as well as those who followed him...And he went, because he had no choice...

Just one point of view, the net result of a few moments of pondering and surmising based on what I have learned in the past.

Commentary is welcome, so long as it's constructive.

-=CW=-

read Paradise Lost

problem solved http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Some good references in that book, but it only focuses on the interpretation according to Milton - and is therefore not theologically accurate.

There was a book of the Bible that the Catholic Church excluded from their versions of the Bible, called the Book of Enoch because it contradicted certain other parts of the Bible.

According to this book, something else existed autochthonously the same way God was - without origin, but a polar opposite. He was Leviathan, the serpent of the sea. Apparently, there was a battle between Leviathan and Yahweh/Elohim over who would have the power to create. Yahweh, as can be imagined, won; if Leviathan had won, the world and the earth would be created in his image.

I believe the Book of Enoch also contains the account of the fall from grace. Of this, I am not familiar.