this is my first post ya so dont get pissed at me for being a nub...but, you can't make life from a non living, a "big bang" would just cause more destruction, besides, what created the things that made the big bang?. I can't see how the breaking and bonding of atoms can make a living organism. so there is my reasoning for God's existence. as for my exact belief on God..I don't like the idea of placing my belief completely on the Bible because how could God not let all those people know of him, which is why I like to think of Islam as one of God's religions, but God did not want all these religions to be created, he wanted one religion. I consider that to be mine, I worship my creator... but what about mediators? am I supposed to pray to Jesus? isn't that worshiping the creation and not the creator? what do you all think?

I'm glad you see that it seems odd all living things can be made of nonliving atoms and molecules. I wouldn't recommend fearing the Bible by any means. You are curious. So many people that "believe in the Bible" merely believe in someone else's interpretation. If you read it as open minded as you are, there's no harm it could do to you. Just study, study, sudy. Jesus said not to pray to him, pray to his father. Because Jesus is the son of God. But Jesus is also God himself. And then there's the Holy Spirit and the whole Trinity deal. Christianity is alot more deep than a bunch of people waving Bibles and protesting shit. Just stay open minded and God will sort of guide you.

[This message has been edited by Apesmack's Ghost (edited 02-07-2004).]

Don't limit yourself to one religious text, there are many multitudes.

yes i hope to incorporate the Bible, Koran, and all the books that weren't put in the Bible into my belief...and anything else i run into along the way. the problem is, being raised a Baptist I'm still gripped by fear that I'm making the wrong decision (which my parents would be happy to tell me i am) I'm so unsure of myself

If you live a good life and God still fucks you up when you die because of your specific religous beliefs/practices he's a bit of a fuck.

Just do whatever seems right to you.

Personally, I don't involve myself in any praying or any other religous practices yet I believe if there were a God I'd be safe, as I have a set of morals and I stick to them.

But each to their own I suppose...

Dude what the fuck are u talking about. You say that the big bang can't have happened because nothing could have sparked that? Well think of it this way. Many people believe in the big bang. Now many people believe a god created the Universe. Now imagine this god as the big bang. The big bang cna't just spark out of nowhere, correct? then how can a god just exist?

Everybody who posted was a hypocrite. You are being closed minded about the big bang, but u think a fucking all powerful god can just exist and start shit. You all anger the hell out of me. Why do u have to persecute scientific ideas that are actually studied and have some scientific evidence! Now some revolutionists can write a book(the Bible, the Koran, the whatever) and u believe them. That makes no fucking sense!

quote:Originally posted by cunfoozedmunkee:

yes i hope to incorporate the Bible, Koran, and all the books that weren't put in the Bible into my belief...and anything else i run into along the way. the problem is, being raised a Baptist I'm still gripped by fear that I'm making the wrong decision (which my parents would be happy to tell me i am) I'm so unsure of myself

I was raised a Baptist, too. I've learned that alot of Christians are very ignorant, though. It kind of turned me off of religion for a while, but I slowly got back into. I think you're gonna have a hard time interpretting both the Koran and the Bible into your belief, considering they are feuding religions. Don't just study the books themselves, study the history of the books. Different interpretations, who wrote the books, its all pretty interesting.

muhammed, who was he? i need access to a koran, doesn't the koran say he's basicly the Messiah while denying that title to Jesus? i feel so ignorant... everytime i read the Bible i think of all the people that could have changed it's meaning weren't the Catholics the first people to compile it into the Bible? they picked and chose what would and what would not be included in the Bible. i feel like I'm not reading all of God's word when i read the Bible

No.

Yeah, many years ago some priest/scribes (whatever they called them) edited out some books of the bible they thought weren't important. You can get a book that has all the missing books of the Bible. It has the books the scribes took out (including a 5th gospel) and the dead sea scrolls. The dead sea scrolls were said to have been passed down by an egyptian/hebrew (unsure) family and eventually hidden by the red sea (unsure). They go into the story of creation deeper and its just that much more knowledge.

My personal belief is that God is not a sentient being, like most people seem to think. In fact, if God is perfect, there is no way for It to be sentient. I look at the energy that we live off of, the conciousness that makes us who we are, as God.

This planet is what we are born from, and when we die, we simply recycle as another being.

Honestly, I think people need an answer, and since science can't prove it, they make shit up. However, I do believe what I have said. I don't believe that there is any scientific way that my conciousness, they way I interpret and understand things, could just be created. I do believe that we could easily have been created in our physical form without any sort of "spiritual force." We would be as mindless as any other animal, just carrying on daily tasks of eating, killing, and mating (which is pretty much how we are anyway.) I just don't think that conciousness is scientific in nature.

There definately is a force at work, but I don't believe it is some being that created us.

There is no need to worship God. You are a branch of God, if anything. If you want to worship God, love yourself and worship your fellow humans.

Topic: there has to be a god...right?

Well, umm, no there doesn't..

You can either choose to believe, or disbelieve in the existance of a God.

Or you can choose to sit on the fence and say maybe there is, but I don't know.

now, this is gonna make me look like just another bitch, but i apologize. first of all, i would just like to say that you're opening arguments for denying the occurence of the big bang aren't strong enough to support the fact that a god must exist. you said you don't see how atoms breaking and bonding can form life. you must not have payed close attention in your biology and chemistry classes.

my point is that with all the planets in the universe and all the time that these planets have been around, there's a very good chance that some random (or not so random, whatever you choose) events would lead to the perfect conditions for a planet to support the evolution of what we call life. And for the part about how this matter got here, well, if anyone could answer that question i suppose there would be only one set of beliefs, right? it's basically beyond human understanding to consider the fact that maybe all of the matter and energy was ALWAYS here. that's a hard thing to wrap your brain around, but then again it's even harder to imagine that there's some omnipotent being that has ALWAYS been here, and created everything with magical powers. both are equally difficult to accept, different people just choose to believe different things, usually based on their upbringing, i might add.

Basic logic tells us that for a large cause, there will be a large effect. If I drop a small glass of water on the floor, there will be a small mess, as opposed to if I dropped a larger one.

The Universe has not always existed. You're just being stupid if you think that. It has a beginning, and it is finite in size. Read Steven Hawking.

Back to cause and effect. The Universe is the huge effect, of the Creator. The Creator has no cause, he is the un-cause God.

The Big Bang and Christianity do not condtradict each other. I hate when people take the story of Creationism too literal. The point of it was to say God has always existed and he created everything. All this 7 day stuff is obviously bullshit. Don't let the extremists that go along with it make you think that's the way all Christians think.

quote:Originally posted by whocares123:

Basic logic tells us that for a large cause, there will be a large effect. If I drop a small glass of water on the floor, there will be a small mess, as opposed to if I dropped a larger one.

The Universe has not always existed. You're just being stupid if you think that. It has a beginning, and it is finite in size. Read Steven Hawking.

Back to cause and effect. The Universe is the huge effect, of the Creator. The Creator has no cause, he is the un-cause God.

The Big Bang and Christianity do not condtradict each other. I hate when people take the story of Creationism too literal. The point of it was to say God has always existed and he created everything. All this 7 day stuff is obviously bullshit. Don't let the extremists that go along with it make you think that's the way all Christians think.



see dude, exactly... i dont know how to interpret the Bible, some much confusing shit. do i take it literal, or figuratively?

and how reliable is the Bible in the first place? i believe in a God but is Jesus his son, muhammed, hey maybe its Yoda, how the fuck am i supposed to know..

If I were you, I'd read about science first. Maybe you can get your head round the science of the big bang, the creation of the solar system, the birth of life on Earth etc as science explains it before looking at religious texts... that way you are able to interpret the texts in terms of what physical evidence points to (the whole 7 days thing just being a metaphor for 7 stages of the Universe's creation etc), and also you might decide that atheism is what you believe after all. If you do though, still read religious texts... it's good to get a balanced view.

Stop asking people to interpret things for you. It's up to you how you interpret things, you shouldn't ask people to tell you what to believe. If you read the Bible and don't see it meaning anything to you, maybe Christianity is not for you... read the Koran or the Hindu Gitas or somthing.

[This message has been edited by sp0rkius (edited 02-09-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by sp0rkius:



Stop asking people to interpret things for you. It's up to you how you interpret things, you shouldn't ask people to tell you what to believe. If you read the Bible and don't see it meaning anything to you, maybe Christianity is not for you... read the Koran or the Hindu Gitas or somthing.

[This message has been edited by sp0rkius (edited 02-09-2004).]

um i didn't ask for anyone to interpret anything for me... i just wanted to hear some one else's opinion, I'm tired of the shit i get from were i live. and hinduism is pagan, and muhammed married a friggin 9 year old, neither are for me. what i said was i want to incorporate them into one belief. i know im not atheist because i find it more possible that god existed before the universe, god's presence creates existence

Jumping from "there has to be an uncaused cause" to "Anthropomorphic, baby killing, animal sacrificing, world flooding, hell creating, human testing, plague sending, first born killing, genocidal, jealous short tempered supernatural entity who required his own son to be tortured and killed to appease his own anger." is as big of a non-sequitur as ever.

"God" could just as easily be enigmatic precursor elements that generated this reality.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 02-09-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by cunfoozedmunkee:

um i didn't ask for anyone to interpret anything for me... i just wanted to hear some one else's opinion, I'm tired of the shit i get from were i live. and hinduism is pagan, and muhammed married a friggin 9 year old, neither are for me. what i said was i want to incorporate them into one belief. i know im not atheist because i find it more possible that god existed before the universe, god's presence creates existence

well... I don't see why u care that Muhammed married a 9 year old, which I don't think he did. I think her name was Fatah or something. But, who cares if it's pagan.

I agree with Sporkius that u can't let people tell u what to believe. I read ur posts and it looks like u are asking people for beliefs man... Life is short, enjoy it and don't be a tool to religion.

weedandbooze, why should i even listen to you when you curse and ridicule me in anger?

constructive criticism only please, and when did i tell some one to tell me what to believe!? goodness... i already have my own basic opinion, i just like being open minded and hearing other people's opinions...

Edit: oh yeah, it DOES say that muhammed married a 9 year old the Koran, I read it in one of my skims through the Koran, i had been told it but didn't believe it till i read it myself, her name was Aesha or Aisha... and i care that Hinduism is pagan because the Bible directly ridicules paganism

[This message has been edited by cunfoozedmunkee (edited 02-09-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

Jumping from "there has to be an uncaused cause" to "Anthropomorphic, baby killing, animal sacrificing, world flooding, hell creating, human testing, plague sending, first born killing, genocidal, jealous short tempered supernatural entity who required his own son to be tortured and killed to appease his own anger." is as big of a non-sequitur as ever.

"God" could just as easily be enigmatic precursor elements that generated this reality.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 02-09-2004).]

Haha Magneto that was very funny.

Anyway, I would like to believe in god, but I can't. Why? It just doesn't make any sense to believe in one, when you look at how science has explained so damn much, you sort of realign your faith accordingly.

Mohammad married the nine year old entirely for political purposes. And I agree that disagreeing with the big bang is an asinine reason to believe in God. And as for the "seven days was really a metaphor for the seven stages" bullshit, I'm looking at Weinbergs book, and he gives six stages. And I think that a nobel prize winner is more of an authority on the subject than some theist science appologist on totse.

The way I kind of look at The Big Bang theory, is like an artist looking at a blank piece of paper.

On this proverbial blank piece of paper there are seemingly infinite possibilities of what could be created, but there is still nothing but the piece of blank paper until you draw the line.

So, here exists a blank universe until something "drew the line". Whether it was god or things just started moving for some unknown or uncomprehensible reason.

It started out of nowhere and is going into the unknown.

It answers really no questions, but that's the way I see it.

Cheers,

Lost

-

[This message has been edited by Ravendust (edited 02-09-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

Jumping from "there has to be an uncaused cause" to "Anthropomorphic, baby killing, animal sacrificing, world flooding, hell creating, human testing, plague sending, first born killing, genocidal, jealous short tempered supernatural entity who required his own son to be tortured and killed to appease his own anger." is as big of a non-sequitur as ever.

"God" could just as easily be enigmatic precursor elements that generated this reality.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 02-09-2004).]

Ok, that's all well and good but that thing about that is we as mere people cannot question God. We don't know everything, we weren't meant to, and we never will. We're all sinners, every single last one of us, God gives us life. Who's to say he can't do whatever the hell he wants? The idea is he'll treat you better if you worship and remain humble to him.

Anyway, science hasn't explained everything. The way I see it, the Big Bang is how the Universe started, right? Then what started the Big Bang? God. How can life, more importantly life with morals and logical thinking (people, and whatever other intelligent beings might be out there) form from nothing? No, they formed from something even greater. Even Einstein believed there was some greater creator force at work, although he never identified it as the God mentioned in the Bible.

If you seriously want to look at this issue, read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. Better yet, just read the first part of it that explains why he thinks there is a God, because of people having this human law of nature to do good things, but we don't always follow it.

quote:Originally posted by whocares123:

Then what started the Big Bang? God.

Or not. Maybe it was something else.

Either way, begging the question won't get you beyond your doorstep in the search for answers.

quote:

No, they formed from something even greater.



That still doesn't answer the question.

All it does is takes one unknown (the universe) and attributes it to another unknown (god), thus failing to answer the question of where anything originally came from.

It's like saying you came from your mom and terminating the line of thought at that point.

quote:

Even Einstein believed there was some greater creator force at work, although he never identified it as the God mentioned in the Bible.



"t was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

- Einstein

Both deism and traditional Judeo-Christian-Islamic theism must also be contrasted with pantheism, the notion attributed to Baruch Spinoza (d. 1677) that the deity is associated with the order of nature or the universe itself. This also crudely summarizes the Hindu view and that of many indigenous religions around the world.

When modern scientists such as Einstein and Stephen Hawking mention "God" in their writings, this is what they seem to mean: that God is Nature.

quote:

If you seriously want to look at this issue, read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. Better yet, just read the first part of it that explains why he thinks there is a God, because of people having this human law of nature to do good things, but we don't always follow it.



I would also recommend you read up on Social Contract theory.

quote:constructive criticism only please, and when did i tell some one to tell me what to believe!?

I think " i dont know how to interpret the Bible, some much confusing shit. do i take it literal, or figuratively?" Is pretty much asking people to interpret things for you.

quote: and i care that Hinduism is pagan because the Bible directly ridicules paganism

In what way is Hinduism pagan? Anyway, the Bible ridicules all other religions.

quote:And as for the "seven days was really a metaphor for the seven stages" bullshit, I'm looking at Weinbergs book, and he gives six stages. And I think that a nobel prize winner is more of an authority on the subject than some theist science appologist on totse.

I'm not a theist, and six stages is the same amount as the six days that God spent creating the Universe anyway. The problem for me lies in the fact that the bible's authors probably didn't know anything about how the Universe was (according to Science anyway) really created. If you wanted to argue against what you thought were my views, you should've said that instead.

quote:On this proverbial blank piece of paper there are seemingly infinite possibilities of what could be created, but there is still nothing but the piece of blank paper until you draw the line.

So, here exists a blank universe until something "drew the line". Whether it was god or things just started moving for some unknown or uncomprehensible reason.

It started out of nowhere and is going into the unknown.

This is a really good way of thinking of the Universe... it's a blank peice of paper and untill it's drawn on you don't know what will be on it... as soon as a line appears everyone says "that line could only look like that by design", missing the fact that it could've looked like any number of other things... the Universe looks designed because it's very unlikley that it would look exactly like this by accident... the chances of the line on the paper looking exactly like that line were slim too, but it had to look like somthing.

quote:Anyway, science hasn't explained everything.

Religion hasn't explained anything satisfactorily.