First of all, let me say that I have never read a bible and although I don't necessarily believe in any of the three major faiths (Christianity, Islam, or Judaism), I do believe in an afterlife.

Ok, so I was in the shower, thinking about how my school changed B.C. (before Christ) to B.C.E. (before common era). I thought this was a stupid thing to do because I always used B.C. and A.D. Anyways, this led me to start thinking about how Jesus was the son of god, born to spread the word of God. I believe this was done because people were losing faith (I could be totally wrong though). Then I thought, if Adam and Eve were the first humans created, how could anyone doubt the word of God. Their children would be told about how God banished them from the Garden of Eden because of them going against his word. Then, when Adam and Eve's children grew up and had kids (incest?), they would tell the same story to their kids. It would be such an important story that there's no way that they wouldn't pass it on to their kids, making it impossible for other faiths to arise, such as the faith of the Greek, Mayans, Egyptians, Incas....

I repeat, I don't know much about Christianity except for what I've gathered from school and TV. Please correct me if there's any major flaws in my thinking, or just post thoughts.

I've always thought about that, if Adam and Eve were the first people then all their children were of incest. Also the bible never mentions any girls born from them so did Cain and Able butt-fuck each other and magically grew kids?

have you ever played the game "telephone"? whenever I played it the message got seriously skewed and that was for only a brief time. this was hundreds of years over many different generations. The possibility of the message changing is pretty good. Few things were written down, and even less people could read what was written. this leaving the story telling to the imagination. creating flaws to the original religion and even changing facts such as how many gods there were.

of course the possibility that the bible is just a big fiction classic could be just as viable.

the real truth is that there is no way of knowing(yet).

Why wouldnt things have been written down? according to the bible, from what i gather, even the first generations of man were more then capable of writting things down. If i remember correctly (which is doubtful) within the first 3 generations there were shepheards and metalsmiths. This means that they had discovered how to work metals and already domesticated sheep. They would surely have been more then capible of writting things down.

quote:Originally posted by PopeDave:

Few things were written down, and even less people could read what was written.



yes things were written down. however not many things were written down. it was a much harder procces to actually write something down then it is today. there were no printing presses or type writers. the proccess was a very slow and tedious one.

quote:Originally posted by flipskate1323:

First of all, let me say that I have never read a bible and although I don't necessarily believe in any of the three major faiths (Christianity, Islam, or Judaism), I do believe in an afterlife.

Ok, so I was in the shower, thinking about how my school changed B.C. (before Christ) to B.C.E. (before common era). I thought this was a stupid thing to do because I always used B.C. and A.D. Anyways, this led me to start thinking about how Jesus was the son of god, born to spread the word of God. I believe this was done because people were losing faith (I could be totally wrong though). Then I thought, if Adam and Eve were the first humans created, how could anyone doubt the word of God. Their children would be told about how God banished them from the Garden of Eden because of them going against his word. Then, when Adam and Eve's children grew up and had kids (incest?), they would tell the same story to their kids. It would be such an important story that there's no way that they wouldn't pass it on to their kids, making it impossible for other faiths to arise, such as the faith of the Greek, Mayans, Egyptians, Incas....

I repeat, I don't know much about Christianity except for what I've gathered from school and TV. Please correct me if there's any major flaws in my thinking, or just post thoughts.

the thre major faiths

u fucking dipshit

christianity, islam, and judiasm all believe in teh same god

fuck

u forgot about liek 99% of almhe other religions

paegan was teh dominant religion in europe until around 100ad wehn a roman leader converted his hafl of the empire to christianity as a polital move to gain power over the other side.

not to mention :buddhism, shintoism, hinduism

are you aware that your head is up your ass or are you too full of shit to notice the smell

Come on mate, you're not going to convince anyone with that attitude (or spelling). Back to the point, Printing presses would hardly be needed when the population was in double figures. Also with a story that big and a few hundred years of spare time its not like they had any reason not to write it all down.

I'm pretty sure Adam and Eve aren't the only people on earth at the time they are banned from God's backstage party. I don't have an old testament around to quote anythign though.

I've heard it argued that Adam and Eve lived to be like 700 years old and they didn't get sick. The reason we live to only be like 80 and get sick frequently is because of the inbreeding. Just a thought, I haven't researched it myself.

Yes, Creationists like to claim that the reason folks in the Old Testament lived so long is that their genetic code was still perfect.

Of course, they also like to claim that dinosaurs lived together with humans and were domesticated and that before Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden all animals were vegetarian.

quote:Originally posted by flipskate1323:

, how could anyone doubt the word of God.

It would be such an important story that there's no way that they wouldn't pass it on to their kids, making it impossible for other faiths to arise, such as the faith of the Greek, Mayans, Egyptians, Incas....



God gave man free will to choose what to do what he/she wants to. This is why they sinned in the garden of eden.

Many prophets came along after Adam and Eve. These are the ones that people started to worship as the only prophet to God. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all worship the same God like someone else said.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

I'm pretty sure Adam and Eve aren't the only people on earth at the time they are banned from God's backstage party. I don't have an old testament around to quote anythign though.

I've heard it argued that Adam and Eve lived to be like 700 years old and they didn't get sick. The reason we live to only be like 80 and get sick frequently is because of the inbreeding. Just a thought, I haven't researched it myself.

genesis 5 5 Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.

quote:Originally posted by Diokhan:

Come on mate, you're not going to convince anyone with that attitude (or spelling). Back to the point, Printing presses would hardly be needed when the population was in double figures. Also with a story that big and a few hundred years of spare time its not like they had any reason not to write it all down.

I understand that they wrote things down. I'm trying to say that it could have been changed with each telling/written down copy of the story. look at how many different views of Christianity there are, let alone the different versions of the bible.

If I am retelling a story it gets boring to retail it using the same drab old way as before. I try to add a little spice to the story making it seem more exciting then it was. I don't get the exact "truth" of the event across to my listener but they are a lot more entertained. I think it is quite possible that back before they had movies TVs computers to entertain themselves they craved something exciting to get them thought the day. The story of god can only be told so many times without it getting extremely dull. (in my opinion) so they start changing events to make it more pleasing to the listener.

quote:Originally posted by ilbastardoh:

I've always thought about that, if Adam and Eve were the first people then all their children were of incest. Also the bible never mentions any girls born from them so did Cain and Able butt-fuck each other and magically grew kids?

Adam and Eve probably had more than two children.

Genesis 5:4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=GEN+5&language=english&version=NIV

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

Of course, they also like to claim that dinosaurs lived together with humans and were domesticated and that before Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden all animals were vegetarian.

Yeah, that's a regular riot. Can you see a Tyrannosaurus Rex tearing at some vegetation with those 9 inch daggers?

Not only are they highly efficient for meat consumption, but they are specifically bad for mastication of vegetation.

quote:Originally posted by stealthdonkey:

Why wouldnt things have been written down? according to the bible, from what i gather, even the first generations of man were more then capable of writting things down. If i remember correctly (which is doubtful) within the first 3 generations there were shepheards and metalsmiths. This means that they had discovered how to work metals and already domesticated sheep. They would surely have been more then capible of writting things down.

What? How do you know this? Have you been to interview the thrid generation of man? Can there be such a thing as the third generation of man, considering evolution is not exactly instant. Besides, these things took millenia to develop, not a century. Unless it says in the Bible "Lo, and within but three generations man had discovered that he could group together the animals of the land for more productive farming, and that he could fashion sharper and more hardwearing tools from the bronze of the ground", in which case I apologise.

quote:when the population was in double figures

Again, how can you possibly find that plausible? The population is in double figures and already they're communicating through writing? Why bother? Also, a population of animals that is only in double figures isn't likely to survive long; one disease could wipe them all out... a properly placed fire would destroy the entire species. It'd just be a matter of time.

quote: all animals were vegetarian.

Poor vegetables! Are they not living creations of the LORD?



Every heard of Zero Wing? Imagine that, but 10 times worse and 1000 times longer and you've got yourself the misinterpreted baldy translated chinese whispers nightmare that is the Bible.... and people argue using specific passages, or over specific meanings of certain words... pah.

[This message has been edited by sp0rkius (edited 02-13-2004).]

I think Adam and Eve were the first of a particular race of people:

"Man, a derivative root, means to think. From this we have the Sanskrit 'Manu,' originally thinker, then man. The name Adam, man, a thinker, suggests that the living soul breathed into Adam raised him high above the other existing races."

-Max Mueller, Oxford scholar

And as far as the concept of "telephone," in Traditional civilizations, there were much fewer distractions to a person's memory than is present in the modern world. It is entirely conceivable, therefore, that people could reflexively and accurately recite entire volumes of information and stories.

Ex: Think about how many different kinds of bands you've heard of. Think about how many elements you know. How many magazine titles you can recite. How many telephone numbers or websites you can recite. How many video game titles and strategies you know. How many authors you can quote. How many street names and addresses you know. Think about the complexities of your school schedule, and how many classes you've taken in your life that you can remember. Think about how many friends' names and characteristics you know. How many useless facts you can recite. How many TV episodes you can recall. How many current events you're aware of.

Take all that trash out, and replace it with the details of the only kind of entertainment you have - stories. I think you'll understand what I mean.

Ok, so the stories were remembered well in ancient civilizations. This is still ignoring the fact that they were probably added to to make them more exciting, that they have been traslated many times and that parts of them have been lost, not to mention the fact that there's quite strong evidence to suggest at least a few of them were made up.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

[B]

..there were much fewer distractions to a person's memory than is present in the modern world.

B]

Yes, that is totally true. however, that doesn't mean they have a good memory. Have you ever have ever heard of the term "practice makes perfect"? the more you practice something the better you are at it. I think memory is something you must practice in order to keep it sharp. Why can mathematicians remember complicated formulas? why can musicians remember thousands of pages of music? Why can't a child remember these things? Practice. the more practice you have at something the better you are at it. so, it is entirely conceivable, therefore, that people could NOT reflexively and accurately recite entire volumes of information and stories.

Once my dad made me go to a youth group (a catholic one) thing with his friends son and they were talking about, Noah and Abraham i think, whichever one died at 900yrs old, and one of the leaders was talkin to us saying that ancient civilizations used different methods to measuring age, the one he mention was the civilization would notice the phases of the moon (for one complete rotation around earth), which would be today 1month and to them 1month=1year, so for a 900 month old person that would be 75yrs, which is still a fairly long life now but a really long life in that time period, which was old enough to probably be a very respected elder and maybe to some.....a prophet. Anyways, yeah.

Since nobody seems to be taking the side of Christianity, i think i'll give it a shot and try to defend it (i'm atheist), after all, i do have a wide knowledge of Christianity....well Catholosism, which to most people seems to be the most outcasted of Christian branches.

OK, if I were really motivated in defending my belifes of Christianity this is how i would reply to the reproduction of the world. Adam and Eve were were the first created humans, in which world population would rely on their mating, but the Adam and Eve mentioned in the bible may have not been the only Adam and Eve (i'm just gonna put A&E), the ones mentioned in the bible may have been the Middle Eastern versions of A&E, while another set were located in Asia another in Europe another N.America ect., then the meeting between to tribes/families would eliminate incest, but in that time incest was not looked down upon or even really acknowleged.

Well thats all i can think of, once u think of more ideas i'll try my best to counter it. Later

Hmmm... How can people who have never even opened a Bible argue about it not being accurate, or even say it is an outright lie? And thank you to the one person who has attempted a defense of Christianity, despite the misguided logic.

MAJOR UBER DISCLAIMER: READ!!!

I AM NOT SAYING THAT I HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS, NOR THAT I AM NOT WRONG, BUT MY OWN OUTLOOK MAY HELP!

First, I am PROTESTANT NOT CATHOLIC! Important distinction. And to the one who perpetuated that lie that Christians, Jews and Muslims worship the same God, don't talk of that of which you are ignorant. First, while Jews and Christians worship the same God, (God the Father of the Holy Trinity) Christians also believe that Jesus Christ died to redeem the sins of all men, if they are willing to follow him. (Sorry, trying not to preach.) Anyway, Muslims worship ALAH, NOT the Christian God. Read the King James Bible, then read the Koran sometime.

As far as humans and Dinosaurs, first T-Rex is actualy believed to have been a scavanger, much like a vulture, due to the fact that the front legs are too short to attack or kill with. Secondly, someone PLEASE give me the exact verse that says the animals were vegitarians? While Adam and Eve were at first vegatarians, once they had sinned they were given animal skins to cover their nakedness. After Noah and his family left the Ark, God gave them permission to hunt the beasts of the fields. Not sure of the exact quote, but you can look it up.

As for the incest thing, it wasn't a sin until the population was sufficiently large enough for people to find partners without having to go to their direct siblings or cousins. My own opinion is that incest became sinful to God because it indicates an unwillingness or laziness to put the time into finding a partner. But that is just my own opinion.

Back to the Catholic thing, do not confuse Catholisism and Christianity... Looking at it in a very biased way, one could point out that Catholisism is a Polytheistic (worships more than one god) religion, because they pray to Mary, Jesus' mother, and various 'Saints.' Now, they do believe in God and Jesus, but there is the little thing "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Hence, praying to Mary or the Saints is worshiping false gods. Any Catholics out there, please correct me if I am wrong, I am not trying to bash you, just stating what I think.

I think that is enough of my rambling for now, later.

~MItS~

P.S. On a side note: When a friend of mine in school, who is the pagan daughter of pagan lesbians no less, stated that "I don't believe in the Devil so he can't hurt me!" I simply said "I don't believe in gravity so it can't hurt me!" She did not reply. In fact, she doesn't talk to me much anymore...

quote:Originally posted by Mantrid:

the thre major faiths

u fucking dipshit

christianity, islam, and judiasm all believe in teh same god

fuck

u forgot about liek 99% of almhe other religions

paegan was teh dominant religion in europe until around 100ad wehn a roman leader converted his hafl of the empire to christianity as a polital move to gain power over the other side.

not to mention :buddhism, shintoism, hinduism

are you aware that your head is up your ass or are you too full of shit to notice the smell

You, sir, are the dipshit. While there are many many religions, the three major [as in most followers] ones are Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. All of the other ones are inconsequential compared to the big three.

To the original poster: Your history is very wrong. People weren't 'losing faith' when jesus came around. They were doing just fine with their Roman religion, and jesus made tons of waves. That is fact.

Also, the official [ecclesiastical] story behind adam and eve being incestuous is that before they sinned they were 'perfect' so therefore it didn't matter how much they inbred.

History has proven that word of mouth is the worst communicator of truth - look at the Greek myths - they were all grounded in reality, and became gradually more immense until they became completely unbelievable - and that's in under 1000 years.

The main thing about the bible is that it's been translated tons of times into the one you know - from individual publications of the Latin version, to a big romance language [French], then finally to english. Let's not even forget the slavic [russian etc.] translations, which are even worse because they're not romance.

quote:Originally posted by Man In the Shadows

Secondly, someone PLEASE give me the exact verse that says the animals were vegitarians?

quote:And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

-- Genesis 1:30

Yeah, it's pretty weak, but I'm not the one defending it. I said this is what some Creationists believe.

quote:P.S. On a side note: When a friend of mine in school, who is the pagan daughter of pagan lesbians no less, stated that "I don't believe in the Devil so he can't hurt me!" I simply said "I don't believe in gravity so it can't hurt me!" She did not reply. In fact, she doesn't talk to me much anymore...

Brilliant! Except we have plenty of evidence for gravity and none at all for The Devil.

re: telephone

does anyone here have any idea about how:

a)the biblical texts came into being

b)you determine the reliability of ancient texts?

Example:

1)Tacitus' "Annals" was written AD 100, the earliest copies are c.1100AD (gap of 1000 yrs) and we have 20 copies dating to that period. This is an widely accepted text among scholars.

2)New Testament, various books written by various authors between AD50-100. The earliest copies range from fragments(c114) to books (c200), most of the NT(c250), complete NT (c325)smallest time gap >50 yrs, largest 225yrs, no. of copies 5366.

For a closer comparison, Homer's Iliad has a 400yr time gap and 643 copies. And yet the bible is held with far more suspicion as to the veracity and integrity of its transmission of text than any of these. And yet it has far more EVIDENCE.

This is just one aspect of a huge area, but it gives you the idea. Essentially, no one can legitemately hold a "biblical text is unreliable" attitude. This includes the groups such as the "Jesus Seminar" and much of the popular, but flawed, textual criticism (which is a different area again).

Changes to the text in recent times would be easily found by anyone with an understanding of NT Greek. Why so many translations of the bible? This really has only occured in english, for a variety of reasons (some legit, some otherwise i think). If you want to read a version u can be 100% sure is accurate of the original text- learn period Greek and Hebrew and read a bible with exactly the same text

Most theoligists and Christians don't even think the story of Adam and Eve is true. They believe it is another story to teach a lesson. Scientists have actually found the garden of Eden, also. It is a place in Mesopatamia (sc), where here agriculture flourshided and man developed. If this is is true your agruement is completely inavalid.

Early civilization is THOUGHT to have began mainly around the Tigris and Eupharatese rivers in Iraq and the Nile region in Egypt, which i guess is all mainly considered Mesopotamia, not sure though. Scientists can only theorize thats where the garden of Eden was and there r always loopholes in all theories. Saying they found the garden cant really be said, in the early stages of the Earth climates and regions were all mixed up from what they r today. I've watched the dicovery channel, it was about prehistoric animals, not dinosaurs, but with the early versions of humans, but, at one time, billions of years ago, the saharra desert was once an ocean, which means the early civilizations of man at one time couldve been part of the ocean and if god made man directly after making the earth and had Adam and Eve flourish in the what is now the Mesopotamia region he wouldve thrown them right in the middle of the ocean. So the garden they found may not have been Adam and Eve's garden, but a later garden.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

2)New Testament, various books written by various authors between AD50-100. The earliest copies range from fragments(c114) to books (c200), most of the NT(c250), complete NT (c325)smallest time gap >50 yrs, largest 225yrs, no. of copies 5366.

And 2000 years from now archaeologists will hav discovered thousands of copies of a book entitled "Dianetics", and people will point to this as proof that Xenu brought life to earth.

quote:And yet the bible is held with far more suspicion as to the veracity and integrity of its transmission of text than any of these.

Possibly because it makes ridiculous claims?

If I wrote a book that included several accounts of people being raised from the dead, multiplication of a small amount of food to feed a crowd, miraculous drink-mixing, etc. and claimed it was based in fact you'd be damn suspicious.

quote:And yet it has far more EVIDENCE.

What evidence is there for the (non-trivial) parts of the New Testament? Hint: things like the fact that we know Herod was a king at around 1BC are trivial.

I'm sure there are novels being written today that refer to Kofi Annan as Secretary-General of the UN, or George Bush as President of the United Staes; it doesn't mean these books are true.

not to make anybody mad but my opinion is that all the things about jesus,god, sinning, and going to heaven or hell once you die depending on sin was all made up by someone that wanted to make a profit or get attention by people. cuz u know the christians have been pricks in the past because they think something is right and then when they find out that they were wrong they dont evan say there sorry for all the stuff they did to people like that scandal with the preists and alter boys.....yikes. and they used to say that you could relieve youre sins by donating money to the church and then when someone said that wasn't right they killed him. this is just my point of view on it and i am a very strong atheist so dont harp on me about being wrong cause this is just my opinion on it that i think other people should hear.

Wow, this is the fisrt time one of my threads was flaming. Anyways, sorry that I was off on most of what I said. I never heard before that Christians don't believe the story of Adam and Eve. Do you know what they do believe? Im just curious. Second, yeah if scientists found the Garden of Eden, anything I said is false and I'll see many of you in hell. Finally, to Mantrid, thanks for being an asshole.

What's all this jazz about Islam, Christianity and Judaism not believing in the same god?

In the BIBLE, Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son as an offering. Jews and christians believe this son was Isaac.

Muslims believe that Abraham was going to sacrifice his other son, Ishmael.

Long story short, God was impressed by Abrahams faith and told him that he and his family were blessed, and that they would be the "chosen people."

Jews--Isaac

Muslims--Ishmael

Same God here, folks.

Just to be clear, though, my only god is science and knowledge.

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

What evidence is there for the (non-trivial) parts of the New Testament? Hint: things like the fact that we know Herod was a king at around 1BC are trivial.

I'm sure there are novels being written today that refer to Kofi Annan as Secretary-General of the UN, or George Bush as President of the United Staes; it doesn't mean these books are true.

I need your help, please define trivial.

Are histographical techniques used to determine the veracity and nature of a text trivial if they are the accepted standard among universites? Perhaps you would like to write to the faculty at Cambridge or Oxford or any major university and tell them their tecniques are trivial?

No more sarcasm, i swear....

Seriously though, your example is pretty flawed, we already find "novels" from 2000 years ago, and by comparing them with the archaeology and other texts from the period as well as textual critisim we can determine the nature of the text.

For example, how do we know that Tacitus annals are historical? Not everything he recorded is supported by archeaology, and yet the archaelogy that does support the events he describes is used to give us reasonable basis for taking his accounts as historical.

Adam and eve is just a moral story. Only true retards think it to be true.

quote:Originally posted by NormlDrGonzo:

Adam and eve is just a moral story. Only true retards think it to be true.

The bible is old and confusing.

It annoys me that so many of the posts here and saying, 'that's wrong, Christians believe THIS' whereas actually there are different ways of looking at the Bible which are equally plausible. eg-

Fundamentalist view- Everything in bible is literally true, word of god, etc. You're gonna have a hard time proving this one but at least you don't have to draw lines between what's possible and what isn't...e.g. Adam lived for 900 years= Adam lived for 900 years because God was just amazing like that. Could be. Who are you to judge?

Mythical view- The Bible is just a whole big story written by Christians to try and explain God, and how and why He created us. Useful as nothing has to be literally true but everything has meaning, e.g. Adam lived for 900 years = God's creation of humanity was pretty good and 'Adam' (man) was a big success.

Progressive view- the Bible originates in the Word Of God, but now is just a story passed down from the original literal truth. so, there's truth in it, but it got a bit mangled and the people who wrote it down wrote it down in their own way. e.g. Adam lived for 900 years = Adam lived for a very long time, in our opinion.

Traditionally, Catholics, (I think, as I am a lapsed one) and possibly others believe in the Bible fundamentally..but it doesn't need to be fundamentally true for the basic truth and purpose of Christianity to exist. If you're trying to prove that Christianity only works if the bible is literally true then someone can just come along with a mythical interpretation and squash you like a bug...

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

I need your help, please define trivial.

Correlation with history is trivial. There are plenty of myths that are based in historical occurances.

Proof (even extra-Biblical evidence) of any of the miracles in the Bible would be non-trivial.

quote:For example, how do we know that Tacitus annals are historical? Not everything he recorded is supported by archeaology, and yet the archaelogy that does support the events he describes is used to give us reasonable basis for taking his accounts as historical.

Take the Exodus as an example. If several million people wandered around in a desert for 40 years we would expect to find some evidence of that.

There is absolutely none.

flip, many religions have the idea of "one bad fruit ruins the bunch". like the sin of humans comes from adam and eve, and murderous wrongdoings comes from cain murdering able. there will always be a wrongdoer. in every person, there are feelings of lust, greed, hatred, etc. christianity is about getting away from these urges and feelings.

think about it like this; if you smoke pot or drink, chances are you were told not to. you did anyway. thats like the spawn of adam and eve. there will be children who run off and form new religions, and they completely get rid of their parents' beliefs.

christianity isnt all about adam and eve. that is the old testament; some christians dont even recognize the old testament and only follow the new testament. the new testament, to summarize, is an epic poem. it is very inspirational. read it sometime with an open mind. a boy born from immaculate conception grows up and from nonviolent, loving ways gathers a following. he was humble and he was great. he died for the sins of humanity. jesus made such an uproar with the people of his area that he was killed. why? because he was preaching peace, which was different slightly from the jewish beliefs at the time.

there is no way for christianity to be true or untrue. if you are a christian like myself, you openly accept jesus christ as your lord and savior. he is offering free redemption from eternal hell, just as long as you are humble, follow his rules and regulations, and accept that he is the lord and savior. if you arent a christian, you dont accept him. thats all.

there are errors in here, my bad. just my 2 cents.

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

Take the Exodus as an example. If several million people wandered around in a desert for 40 years we would expect to find some evidence of that.

There is absolutely none.

actually, they only were in the desert for a year or so. 2 men (the names escape me now) were sent by moses to see the promise land. they stayed for 39 days, and god punished them by making them wait for 39 years in the desert.

or something like that.