I found this as a word document on Suprnova (http://www.suprnova.org), and since this forum seems to be devoted to proving/disproving the existance of the Christian God I thought I should post it here... I visited the link (http://www.av1611.org/hell.html) too.

quote:Proof That Heaven Exists And Proof That God Exists

Let me begin by saying, if God and Heaven didn?t exist, why do people try so hard to prove it. That is proof in itself. Instead of deliberating over such things that are beyond human intellect, we should instead focus on things that we do understand. We should seek human harmony and peace. We should try to feed and house the homeless and hungry. We should look deep in our own heart and ask God to help us in this world of sorrow and pain.

Now, to address the title.

I have read that some people think the Bible says that heaven is nothing more than the sky. Not completely true. It is part of heaven. Genesis 1:7-8 says ?And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.?

Can we see to the end of the sky above us? No. With all the modern technology available, we can barely see past our own solar system. Scientists calculate and theorize on the distance from earth of stars they find. There is no proof that light travels at the same speed continuously through all forms of space, so how do we know how far away they are? We can travel manned flights no farther than the moon and unmanned no farther than Uranus without losing contact, so where is the proof that there is not anything out there?

Anyone who believes that all life on Earth evolved from a single cell is an utter idiot. The sheer dynamics of it are impossible. Think about our bodies. Every bone, every muscle, every cell perfectly harmonized. Think about the animals, millions of genii and species, all perfect in their own way. Think about the plants, too numerous to list, yet each one with its unique beauty and importance to life. There is no way it just happened. There is NO scientific basis to evolution. When a species evolves, it merely changes to adapt to its environment, then the previous form becomes extinct. Example, cockroaches evolve to resist pesticides. As the weaker ones die, the new ones take over their place. IF we evolved from monkeys, there would no longer e a purpose for monkeys and they would die out. Far from the case. There would also be half monkeys half humans roaming the planet. Have you seen one? Does the evolutionary process stop? Once humans evolved from the monkeys, did one of the single cells tell it to stop?

Charles Darwin, the author of the theory of evolution, said on his death bed, ?I was wrong. We did not evolve. There IS a God!? God let him see what was in store for him.

As for rock solid evidence of the existence of Heaven or God, there is none and there will be none until Jesus Christ returns. We have to trust in God and believe that He exists. Hebrews 11:1 says ?Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.? When God calls on your heart, you will know He is real, and you won?t need any physical proof. Although we are created in God?s own image, it is His Holy Spirit which works through our hearts to be evidence of His existence.

Do you believe we are just here, and when we die that?s all there is? We live our short lives on this planet, seeing the death and destruction all around us, live in fear of terrorism and watch hatred grow at such a rapid pace, work for our living then leave it all behind to go to a grave and that is all? How sad and miserable you must be!

Visit http://www.av1611.org/hell.html. This is about as close to physical proof of the existence of a Heaven or Hell that we will ever know. About the middle of the page there is a link to an audio file. Listen to it and choose for yourself whether to believe it or not. You should also read the page, it is very informative and leaves little to be speculated.

Finally, above all other things, believe in Jesus Christ and ask Him into your heart. He will forgive you of all your doubts and disbelief and He will reserve a place for you in Heaven, or as Jesus said to the thief on the cross beside Him, ?Today you will be with me in Paradise.? Luke 23:43.

Think about this. When Jesus was on this Earth, people still chose not to believe. There was LIVING proof and some still worked to disprove Him. They all failed, and Jesus won the victory over Hell and the grave. All for you. Because HE loves you and He wants you to love him. It?s that simple. People try to complicate it but it really is that simple. Love Him, ask Him to forgive your sins and you will be saved from and eternity in the fires of hell, where the fire is not quenched, and the worm dieth not.



<A HREF="http://www.av1611.org/images/Xearth2.jpg">http://www.av1611.org/images/Xearth2.jpg" width="90" height="90 (http://www.av1611.org/images/Xearth2.jpg" width="90" height="90)</A>

Convincing stuff... thinking of converting.

are you serious?

"Let me begin by saying, if God and Heaven didn?t exist, why do people try so hard to prove it. That is proof in itself."

This is idiotic. You could say the same about evolution with people trying so hard to prove it (and they've done a damned good job).

"Instead of deliberating over such things that are beyond human intellect, we should instead focus on things that we do understand. We should seek human harmony and peace. We should try to feed and house the homeless and hungry. We should look deep in our own heart and ask God to help us in this world of sorrow and pain."

OR we can focus on those things of our own fucking will rather than asking a most likely imaginary friend for a little placebo boost to our motive.

"Now, to address the title.

I have read that some people think the Bible says that heaven is nothing more than the sky. Not completely true. It is part of heaven. Genesis 1:7-8 says ?And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.?

Can we see to the end of the sky above us?"

Actually we can see the end of the sky quite clearly from the moon. The atmosphere is particularly visible from that distance as shown by several hundred photographs taken in space.

"No. With all the modern technology available, we can barely see past our own solar system. Scientists calculate and theorize on the distance from earth of stars they find. There is no proof that light travels at the same speed continuously through all forms of space, so how do we know how far away they are?"

Or you can not be a dildo and realize that dozens of studies have proven that light, like all waves, travels the same speed through the same medium. Space=vaccuum. You have to consider debris in space though, so there is a slight margin of error. If this guy took basic physics he wouldn't sound like such a fool.

"We can travel manned flights no farther than the moon and unmanned no farther than Uranus without losing contact, so where is the proof that there is not anything out there?"

We've travelled further than the moon, just haven't landed men further than the moon. Also, we've had unmanned ships go much further than Uranus without losing contact. Wish I could recall one of their names at the moment, I might update later with the names of the ships included.

"Anyone who believes that all life on Earth evolved from a single cell is an utter idiot. The sheer dynamics of it are impossible. Think about our bodies. Every bone, every muscle, every cell perfectly harmonized."

Just because it is too complex for him to grasp doesn't mean it didn't happen. I find it absolutely amazing how complex a single celled organism is, but it doesn't mean multi-cellular organisms can't exist, or that cells aren't one of the most simple forms of life.

"Think about the animals, millions of genii and species, all perfect in their own way. Think about the plants, too numerous to list, yet each one with its unique beauty and importance to life. There is no way it just happened. There is NO scientific basis to evolution. When a species evolves, it merely changes to adapt to its environment, then the previous form becomes extinct."

Unless of course, mutliple environments exist...perhaps maybe artic, jungle, seas, plains, forests...even temperature variations within a single environment. Then one species can evolve in a new condition while its mother species remains in the old conditions. Who'd have thunk it!

"Example, cockroaches evolve to resist pesticides. As the weaker ones die, the new ones take over their place."

But the weak ones NOT exposed to that chemical, per se another family in a different house that isn't sprayed, remain the same.

"IF we evolved from monkeys, there would no longer e a purpose for monkeys and they would die out. Far from the case. There would also be half monkeys half humans roaming the planet."

Humans didn't evolve from monkeys according to the trees we have anyways. A common ancestor, which IS now extinct. However, different environments allowed for less erect and more erect apes to evolve. Plains=erect for seeing over grass and such. Trees=less erect with more adept arms for swinging, hiding, whatever. The lack of mediary species being alive anymore can be explained by there being no conditions for their traits to continue as the necessary ones were passed eventually to homo sapiens while the useless ones died off with older generations as the environment no longer supported them.

"Have you seen one? Does the evolutionary process stop? Once humans evolved from the monkeys, did one of the single cells tell it to stop?"

Human ingenuity has prevented us from needing to evolve much. Our brain capacity allows us to modify our environment to suit us rather than modifying ourselves to suit it.

"Charles Darwin, the author of the theory of evolution, said on his death bed, ?I was wrong. We did not evolve. There IS a God!? God let him see what was in store for him."

Can this guy provide a source for this?

"As for rock solid evidence of the existence of Heaven or God, there is none and there will be none until Jesus Christ returns. We have to trust in God and believe that He exists. Hebrews 11:1 says ?Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.? When God calls on your heart, you will know He is real, and you won?t need any physical proof. Although we are created in God?s own image, it is His Holy Spirit which works through our hearts to be evidence of His existence."

I tried blind faith once...didn't work out too well once I snapped back into reality and realized my life had gone to shit.

"Do you believe we are just here, and when we die that?s all there is? We live our short lives on this planet, seeing the death and destruction all around us, live in fear of terrorism and watch hatred grow at such a rapid pace, work for our living then leave it all behind to go to a grave and that is all? How sad and miserable you must be!"

I actually take solace in knowing this might be all there is...that there is no Hell where people will suffer. I'd rather everyone have no fate at all than anyone suffer in Hell...maybe that's just empathy talking rather than selfishness though...

"Visit http://www.av1611.org/hell.html. This is about as close to physical proof of the existence of a Heaven or Hell that we will ever know. About the middle of the page there is a link to an audio file. Listen to it and choose for yourself whether to believe it or not. You should also read the page, it is very informative and leaves little to be speculated."

I'll check that page out in a bit and reply to it shortly.

"Finally, above all other things, believe in Jesus Christ and ask Him into your heart. He will forgive you of all your doubts and disbelief and He will reserve a place for you in Heaven, or as Jesus said to the thief on the cross beside Him, ?Today you will be with me in Paradise.? Luke 23:43.

Think about this. When Jesus was on this Earth, people still chose not to believe. There was LIVING proof and some still worked to disprove Him. They all failed, and Jesus won the victory over Hell and the grave. All for you. Because HE loves you and He wants you to love him. It?s that simple. People try to complicate it but it really is that simple. Love Him, ask Him to forgive your sins and you will be saved from and eternity in the fires of hell, where the fire is not quenched, and the worm dieth not."

Hmm, I thought Christ went to Hell when he died and stayed for 3 days...nice paradise that thief met that day with Jesus. Some man claiming to be the son of God and preaching socialist ideals doesn't prove a God exists. If anything, it proves Jesus was very empathetic while possibly insane. Also, legends are misconstrued as all hell. Look at Arthurian legends and such...some of it is based in fact but the stories get blown out of proportion and twisted within just a couple generations. The majority of the bible's NT was written after almost a century since the most common year of death for Jesus...are we to take likely overproportioned stories as fact?

"Visit http://www.av1611.org/hell.html. This is about as close to physical proof of the existence of a Heaven or Hell that we will ever know. About the middle of the page there is a link to an audio file. Listen to it and choose for yourself whether to believe it or not. You should also read the page, it is very informative and leaves little to be speculated."

You ever watch the old Nazi propoganda videos from the 30s? It's all about the place that Germany would become if something isn't done, and that the only salvation is Hitler and the Nazis, and it uses the same techniques that the site linked to by this guy does. It's hard to take blatant propoganda serious as I'm not in a desparate state of mind.

"Let me begin by saying, if God and Heaven didn?t exist, why do people try so hard to prove it. That is proof in itself."

No. That is proof of nothing save that the author of this is an idiot.

"Instead of deliberating over such things that are beyond human intellect, we should instead focus on things that we do understand. We should seek human harmony and peace. We should try to feed and house the homeless and hungry. We should look deep in our own heart and ask God to help us in this world of sorrow and pain."

The claim that these thing are beyond human intellect is a cop out. The rest of this statement is rather Buddhist.

I'm not going to bother quoting each thing anymore. Every theologist for 1800+ years after the death of Christ and before, believed that heaven was an actual part of the sky, and that if one could climb high snough, one could reach it. Space is not the sky. It's space. Modern science did a splendid job of proving that heaven isn't in the sky, which is why the Pope issued a proclamation that Heaven and Hell were metaphorical. Really dodged a bullet there, eh?

Now for the cute little statement that the speed of light isn't always the same. THE SPEED OF LIGHT IS CONSTANT, INVARIANT IN AL FRAMES, NO MATTER HOW FAST YOU'RE GOING. This is the fucking basis of relativity. Furthermore, science has proven that any objest with no rest mass, HAS to travel at the speed of light. The author just lost all credibility there, but I'l keep going.

His refutation of evolution simply proves he has a small mind. How much free-floating hydrogen do you see? Most of it combines with other element to form compounds. It combines with carbon so often we have a special name for permutations of that combination, hydrocarbons. Some hydrocarbons are capable of reproducing themselves. It only had to happen once. And the eventual build up to all present and past life forms is only impossible if you honestly believe the earth is 6000 years old. It's more like 4.5 billion. 4.5 billion years is enough time for evolution to occur. And out bodies aren't perfect. Birth defects? Sickle cell? Genetic mutations? And for there being no half-monkeys, we share 99.9% of a monkeys genetic structure. Close enough?

The bullshit about Charles Darwin repenting on his death-bed is just that. Bullshit. Utterly unbacked, if it isn't a straight out lie. The one person who saw him on his death bed never quoted him as having repented. SO, did and angel come down and inform the author of this? This is a myth.

So after his "proof" of heaven and God, the author falls back on the "we have to just have faith. this is all just a test of our faith". Which is bullshit. Wasn't this essay supposed to offer proof? It offers nothing but poorly manipulated and twisted facts, to make it look like he had a case.

I'm an atheist. I've accepted that it's entirely possible that when I die, thats it. I'd hardly call myself "sad and miserable". Maybe thats because I'm a competent human being? One who isn't a weakling and a coward?

Then the author descends into a rant about taking Jesus into his life, along with some biblical bullshit. FUCK YOU. People didn't beleive Jesus when he was alive because he never preformed any miracles. It's all bullshit added in later to make it seem more convincing.

spOrkius, this bullshit is hardly convincing. There isn't a single good point in here. He twisted and blatantly lied about so much, just to make it sound like he had a ration case when he began his evangelical rant to try to convert you. Any one who would be swayed by this trash foisted off as logic is either mentally defective or degenerate.

Hexadecimal, light travels the same speed through every medium. Like, imagine light going through water. Inbetween the water molecules, it still travels at the same speed as a vacuum, it just tends to hit molecules and ricochet. It travels at the same speed, it just takes a longer path to get where it's going because of the ricochets.

And another thing, because I just noticed the little picture was a link. There's a fucking world of difference between a sea of molten rock and metal, and a system of fiery caves filled with brimstone and demons who torture the souls of the damned. Yet more twisting of the facts.

I believe the core is hot because the pressure of earth pressing down on the core causes the gas/dust to shift/cause friction which = heat.

Well at least thats how it goes with stars.

quote:Originally posted by sp0rkius:



Convincing stuff... thinking of converting.

I'll go get my "jesus loves boobs" hat and join ya.

The dude who runs that site is pretty questionable imo. Also, the "screaming" is pretty horrible sounding, but you can't hear anything in the clip that proves they are underwater. All you hear is there screaming, I think i could make something like that in "Acid 5.0" in an hour. Plus watch Event Horizon for another manmade replica of Hell.

I'm not really trying to proove anyone wrong here by saying any of this...But I don't see how christians can believe that there is a god "up there" when there is NO physical proof of anything of the sort existing. I can see if someone had an idea of the sort, saying back 2000 years ago when jesus walked the earth..Mabey that guy's right, mabey this God character actually exists up there and is watching over all of us and has a plan. I can see that, but having millions upon millions of people BELIEVING it, and basing their whole life on it is ridiculous. I know it's not that much just to go to church an hour everyweek. But thinking that whenever you do somthing bad, your going to be punished AFTER you die? If god wanted to punish you for sinning...why wouldn't he do it when your alive, wouldn't that hurt you a little more than after your dead and really have nothing to do for anybody/thing? I don't believe in life after death, I think it's a buch of bullshit. I don't really know what to think of reincarnation either. It's all kind of blurry to me at this point. And I believe in evolution more than anything else, because it makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. And even if Adam and Eve were the first and only people on earth at that time, we had to evolved some how to get all the different ethnicitys we have(sorry can't spell). So that prooves somthing right there. So anyways, thats all I'm going to say at the moment, just thought I'd post my thoughts.

O Lord Jesus Christ, Who said to Your Apostles: "Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you," regard not my sins but the faith of Your Church, and deign to give her peace and unity according to Your Will: Who live and reign, God, world without end. Amen.

O My Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who are in most need of Thy mercy

quote:Originally posted by DesertEagle:

O Lord Jesus Christ, Who said to Your Apostles: "Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you," regard not my sins but the faith of Your Church, and deign to give her peace and unity according to Your Will: Who live and reign, God, world without end. Amen.

O My Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who are in most need of Thy mercy



Says the man whose handle is a weapon. Yeah. You're a huge proponent of peace.

quote:Originally posted by RIGHTEOUS IMPIETY:

are you serious?

No! I was being sarcastic, this guy is an idiot... just look at the picture I posted... "proof" of hell's existance: "Inside the Earth from a text book. Notice the "fire" inside the Earth." Classic. I just found it by chance and thought it (along with the hell link) was good evidence that people can quote the Bible to back up their arguments 'till they're blue in the face, but that doesn't make them right, because you can probably find somthing in the Bible to back up any argument if you look hard enough.

quote:I'll go get my "jesus loves boobs" hat and join ya.

It's a date! *fires up the baptismatron 2000*

quote: "Acid 5.0"

Hmm.. I only have 4. Worth getting acid 5?

quote:Hexadecimal, light travels the same speed through every medium.

No it doesn't... if that was true there would be no refraction. (http://mintaka.sdsu.edu/GF/explain/optics/refr.html)

[This message has been edited by sp0rkius (edited 02-16-2004).]