A few things to ponder:

Do you think that people (good people) become Angels when they die? Angels existed even before Adam and Eve - like Lucifer - and he wasn't human ( was he? ).

It says in Issah somewherez that you will "soar on wings of eagles" but does that mean you become an Angel?

Did God create Lucifer, or was he a diety always there like God was? Was he like a human before hand? i don't think so.

What do you beleive?

If God created everything, then he created Lucifer as well.

One wonders why, from a Christian viewpoint, he doesn't just un-create him.

I've always felt that, if Lucifer's real, then he's doing God's dirty work for him.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

I've always felt that, if Lucifer's real, then he's doing God's dirty work for him.

Yeah. He's contracted out to do all the evil shit god wants and then god scapegoats it all on his own agent that was acting per his instructions.

Time to point out yet again that Lucifer is never mentioned in the Bible.

"Do you think that people (good people) become Angels when they die?"

- That's been one of my most recent points of study. This appears to be one of the gaps in judaic/christian religious philosophy.

From what I've gathered, angels and demons are much the same thing, only on opposing sides. Just like two races: they're both human, just different cultures. However, humans are something completely different altogether. Also, when they are in pure spirit form (without a body), they are on a higher level (or closer to god) than the angels.

The biggest flaw I find with this (because you can figure all that out by researching the bible, but) is that christians believe good peoples spirits go to heaven (where god and the angels "live"), and heaven is supposed to be a perfect place. But, when Adam and Eve were in the Garden Of Eden, they fouled up, because they'd been given freewill and the Garden Of Eden was perfect and what's the point of having freewill if all your choices are the right choice. Meaning, because they had freewill they had to choose the bad choice, since it was the only way to excercise their freewill.

So, how could a human spirit, with freewill, live in heaven with god and the angels? Wouldn't that be torturous? Or do they forfeit their freewill for the perfection of heaven?

There doesn't seem to be any indication of these concepts in the bible.

Of course, in judaism humans don't go to heaven or hell. They go somewhere different, aside from heaven or hell. That seems, at least, a little more consistant with human spirituality, but the realm they go to isn't well enough described to really be able to speculate on that.

"Angels existed even before Adam and Eve - like Lucifer - and he wasn't human ( was he? )."

- No. Lucifer was an arch angel, gods favorite angel, and he was/is called The Angel of Light. A lot of people get him pegged as The Dark Angel, who is really Gabriel.

"It says in Issah somewherez that you will "soar on wings of eagles" but does that mean you become an Angel?"

- A lot of the bible, I believe, is up to personal interpretation.

"Did God create Lucifer, or was he a diety always there like God was?"

- God created Lucifer when he created the angels. He is not a diety.

"Was he like a human before hand?"

- No. He was always and is an angel. A fallen angel, to be exact. Not a dark angel. There is only one dark angel.

"What do you beleive?"

- I believe in spirits and I believe that there are different types of spirits, which may be what we've come to think of as angels and demons. I believe in personal "angels and demons" meaning that they have their own personalities, like humans do. I believe in a methodical rhythmn to the universe that is a pure conciousness and that is "god", and because he is the rhythmn of the universe, he is (not the universe, but) the movement and essence of existance of the universe, and therefore all powerfull and omnipotent.

Cheers,

Lost

I think what it means is an angel or God (whichever) will rise you up and you can "soar" in heaven. It's symbolic, not to be taken literally.

The Christians turned Lucifer into what we think is Satan. In the old Jewish writings Lucifer was an angel of God who tested faith of humans. God granted permission for Lucifer to do destructive acts to see how someone's faith would hold up.

The only human turned angel is actually removed from the Old Testament and by many Jewish theologians, it's called the "Book of Enouch" (Okay, spelling's off but I'm doing this from memory). Where the angels were going to be punished or destroyed and they used him as a spokeperson because God held a dear spot in his heart. Later on he is supposed to be transformed into the famous MetaTron (A lot of this is from what I know off-hand and I'm pretty sure almost all of this is accurate but still)

What I never understand about somebody who's so devoted to one religion is that religions use the same ideas, names, or tweak it. I don't have too many off-hand but a lot of "angels" are described in the bible have already been declared in other religions. It's like you can't choose an ice cream flavor so you take a scoop of each and now it's a melting, disgusting pile of brown.

[This message has been edited by Finn (edited 02-26-2004).]

The question I have, is why is Satan painted as a bad fellow in Christianity if he is supposedly Lucifer? Lucifer is an Angel, is he not? And Angels are the servants of God, with no free will? Then how, according to Christianity, does he tempt humans into evil? Wouldn't God have to command Lucifer to do this, making God the 'evil' one?

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

The question I have, is why is Satan painted as a bad fellow in Christianity if he is supposedly Lucifer? Lucifer is an Angel, is he not? And Angels are the servants of God, with no free will? Then how, according to Christianity, does he tempt humans into evil? Wouldn't God have to command Lucifer to do this, making God the 'evil' one?

The more times I read the bible the more Satan and God sound like best buddies who made a bet. I look at it like those rappers who get really big and then when they're super famous they take on a little rapper buddy. Before the famous rapper guy took him on he was just another nobody, but now he's the famous rappers favorite little rapper. He's kind of the right hand man, side kick sort of deal, but he's still inferior. Then, one day, the famous rapper meets a hot, soul singer, chick and he decides he's going to marry her (but, he's going to keep her at home, with the domestic stuff). He tells his little rapper buddy friend that if he marries this chick he loves he (the little guy) is going to have to not only do was the famous rapper says, but he's going to have to do what the chick says. So, the little guy thinks,

"Yo yo. No way, homie."

Famous rapper says:

"Who you callin' homie, son?"

Little rapper says:

"Check dis. I've been your number one for like eva', G. I'm always there for you. How you gwen play me like dat? Yo, G. She can't even rap!"

And the famous rapper says:

"Don't matter, kid. I love da ho."

So, you can understand that the little rapper gets a little ticked off at this and so when the famous rapper asks his advice on the marriage, of course, he says it's a bad idea. The chick isn't worth his time. She's just going to cheat on him.

But, the famous rapper doesn't believe the little guy, but he still really likes him. So, they make a bet and the little rapper bets the famous rapper that he can get the chick to cheat on him.

And just because the famous rapper really likes the little rapper and has all this money, he buys the little rapper his own estate, his own recording studio, and a team of managers to help him devise ways to get rich and famous, ruin the chicks career, and then trick her into cheating on the famous rapper.

But, they're still homies.

In the most spiritual sense.

(What am I on?)

Cheers,

Lost

Somehow, that made perfect sense to me. What the fuck am *I* on?

Lost, i understand (not necessarily agree though) how you came to the conclusion re: choosing bad as the only way to exercise freewill. What i don't understand however is why a 'perfected' existence in heaven would require the forfeiting of free will.

My understanding has always been that God is working to bring us to the point where our liberated will chooses to side with Him. Maybe thats the same thing? I dunno.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

Lost, i understand (not necessarily agree though) how you came to the conclusion re: choosing bad as the only way to exercise freewill. What i don't understand however is why a 'perfected' existence in heaven would require the forfeiting of free will.

My understanding has always been that God is working to bring us to the point where our liberated will chooses to side with Him. Maybe thats the same thing? I dunno.

For example: Adam and Eve were given freewill, but they lived in a perfect garden where they could do pretty much whatever they wanted all day long. The only flaw was that there was The Tree Of Knowledge (the one bad choice). So, they were pretty happy except for, what's the point of having freewill/having choices when every choice you choose is the right one.

So after a really long time of choosing the right choice by default, things got a little pointless and boring. Psychologically speaking they had no choice but to make the bad choice, lest they go insane.

Perfection isn't perfection without flaw.

I, of course, don't know what happens to people when they die. But, I have wondered what are human spirits with freewill supposed to do in a perfect existance like Heaven. I can't imagine it would be that great a place for us.

Cheers,

Lost