This seems more at home here than at the Better Living Through Chemistry forum...

I don't know if anyone here is interested in Shamanism/neopagan rituals, but I've been giving a lot of thought to incorporating substances into my meditation schedule. Some of my most spiritual moments have been aided by these substances, so it seems like a natural course of action. Anyone want to share what they use drugs for- spiritwork, imprinting, etc?

Peyote. Some native americans use it as part of their prayers. Apparently it send your consciousness straight into the spirit world for the duration.

Remember in "Young Guns"? When the Indian guy gives them a drink and they go into the spirit world. That was Peyote.

I have a friend who took it and he said that he was wondering around a temple made of jewels and he walked around and spoke to spirit souls who were also in there. Perhaps the jewelled temple was part of his imagination but I think the spirit souls would have been real.



Personally I've only taken weed and shrooms. The weed doesn't really give spiritual experiences but the relaxation it gives you helps you to focus; one think which is pretty much essential for spiritual exploration. When I had the shrooms I had a lot of profound realisations.

[This message has been edited by ---Beany--- (edited 02-24-2004).]

I do most of my spiritual studies through use of dorky things like physics and studying/reading. But, to mediate I sometimes go into a meditative state.

I've also had - what I consider spiritual experiences, moments of enlightenment - on cannabis, peyote, salvia, mescaline, shrooms, diphenhydramine, alcohol, etc...

However, I've found that different drugs produce different types of experiences. Most spiritual I've found in order of most experiences to least, would be (and of course everyone is different.):

No. 1: Shrooms

No. 2: Alcohol

No. 3: Cannabis

No. 4: Diphenhydramine/Dramamine

No. 5: Peyote

No. 6: Mescaline

No. 7: Salvia

Alcohol and cannabis may be more at the top simply because it's easier to get so I've had more experiences with it period, but I've found I derive much more from an alcoholic experience than most people do.

I'm a lush. It's where my bliss is. It also keeps me from becoming a drug addict.

But, I've found that mescaline and salvia, in particular, are best for examining yourself and your life, but not so good for spiritual purposes.

*debating whether or not to send this to BLTC forum*

...

Cheers,

Lost

No, don't send to BLTC. It's a fresh topic for this forum.

BTW, what do you class as a spiritual experience? I feel more spiritual after taking alchohol but that's only because I'm more relaxed and my feelings of love for God (Or spirituality) are increased. I wouldn't class this as a spiritual experience.

[This message has been edited by ---Beany--- (edited 02-24-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

No. 4: Diphenhydramine/Dramamine

I'm interested in what makes you rank Dramamine #4.

"BTW, what do you class as a spiritual experience?"

- I've become able to enter an altered state of mind (sober and/or otherwise), while maintaining in my main concious state. It took years of meditation and lucid dreaming excercises to attain this ability, but it's really just excercises of the mind and anyone who really tries can do it.

Anyways, I've gotten to the point where I'm sensitive enough to feel/sense the vibrations (I'd really need to go really indepth to explain it and it would take hours) and am "contacted". It's not so much like a voice or anything like that. It's more like getting a mental injection.

The first time it happened, I was sober, and it was very strange. All of a sudden it felt like there was literally an ambilical (sp) attached to my abdomen and sentiment (the best way I can describe it. It was like words transferred through emotion.) was pourn into me from an identifiable source.

This occassionally happens without me coercing it. It sometimes happens when completely sober. I could be just reading a book or walking down the street and it will occur. While it's happening, everything I do it's like when you're trying to maintain on shrooms or something. You're kind of on autopilot and all you can do is try to appear normal while what's going on in your head goes on.

This mostly happens spontaneously when I'm on alcohol. In fact, it almost always happens when I've had enough to drink. (That doesn't mean drunk.) But it has happened to me spontaneously, on all those drugs when I could tell that it was the drug that was "opening the door".

"I'm interested in what makes you rank Dramamine #4."

- Actually, the only reason I listed dramamine is because the trip is similiar to diphenhydramine. I've never actually experienced anything spiritually related, worth mentioning, on dramamine. I meant mostly diphenhydramine.

Diphenhydramine is No. 4, because I find it's hallucinations are so realistic they are often very distracting from any real communications. Also, it provides a very "chemically" trip. The hallucinations, often look like the swirls in cough syrup. Almost as if they were generated by a computer. So, aside from everything else, I feel the chemical aspect of it throws me off a bit.

Cheers,

Lost

Great post, lost. It reminds me of my first "spiritual awakening"- and I do mean first, because I was raised an atheist.

I was on acid with a few close friends in the park. One was a little younger than I, and we weer having this amazing conversation on social interactions. Offhandedly, he said, "Yeah, because we're all connected." As the significance of this seemingly nonchalant statement sank in, he breathed, "Oh my god." I kissed his hands and told him he understood; we were both so happy. We both lay on the grass, I could hear the earth "talking"; not really words, of course, but a feeling that couldn't be mistaken for anything else. It was vibrations sent from the core of the planet, echoed in a million tiny voices of the grass, deep sighs of the trees...

The message I recieved that day was "I forgive you." I was loved by the earth even though I sometimes forgot to recycle, even though I use paper products, even though I was so out of tune with her* and myself. It was one of the best days of my life.

*I say "her" just because that's what I can relate to. I think that a lot of things we don't understand transcend gender, but due to a limited language we have to label them "male" spirits or "female" spirits. Oh well...

I think that enthaogens help with spiritual and enlightening moments because it feels (to me) to jump start a chain reaction of energy and activity in the part of the brain that's mostly dormant in most people. I think Timothy Leary talked about this in his 8 Circuits of Conciousness. Anyway for the everday life of everyday people there's countless various "filters" in the mind. Put there from society, or desire to survive, or fear, or whatever they're there. There's just so many things that can be thought the filters make everyday thinking a little bit easier on you. The enthaogens remove these filters and allows for much much deeper thinking. Usually from the part of the mind that seems spiritual, reflective, infinite, maybe even as if God were speaking to you.

I've found that during these journies suddenly EVERYTHING is an amazing omen. Everything syncs up perfectly with the mood, with how and what you're thinking. Like everything in your life has been leading up to that very moment, and that it hits you that everything in your life has been leading up to that moment. That your entire life leads up to EVERY moment of your life. That every moment is nothing but carried reprucussions of the moment before and the stepping stone to the next moment so you'd better make the most of it and live the fucker.

Music is a beautiful and essential part of the trip and life for that matter. Existance without music without any kind of rythym just would not work. Psychadelics help show this, the music will sync up with your heart beat.

Sure, back in the 60s.

Nowadays, I find sonic driving to be much more effective, safer, and more controllable.

If you want to talk about this in more depth, feel free to email me. I don't get on totse much.

Using various drugs to liven ones experience is the best but hardest way to gain enlightment, ie. Nirvana which should be our only goal, not simple tid bits. However this method is used very little (in a proper manner) in these days, there may be a handful of people in the world who truly know what they're doing in this respect, and even if you could find them, perhaps fewer who would teach most people in this manner, it requires a very special person in regards to the student. And it next to impossible for one to fully suceed in this way by themselves. It is perhaps usful to gain some understanding of altered states, but these should be almost ignored anyway. The best bet for this would be the indiviuals in Southern America, and perhaps the Native Americans that still use Peyote, but I don't think they easily let people join in either. Concerning the Shaman of South America, from what I've read, I'm sure there are the greater ones that none of us have ever heard of, they do not seem to have the knowledge/experience of Nirvana, but just experience in higher states of awearness in realtion to the norm, and a varring degree of superior knowledge to most people, myslef definately included.

I've tried this personaly, as you could tell it didn't work for me, though it did give some results, I could perhaps be even better off now if I'd never used drugs, but that's neither here nor there I guess.

If you take this seriously I would strongly sujest being extremily intelligent in every respect to what and how you use, and also in the other parts of your life, this I think would be very nessecary, and one of my main reasons for failure.



In regard to Sonic Driving, this occurs naturaly within the conciousness, and is much more finely tuned to the needs/benifits of the indivual at various times, there is no need for an outside sorce of sound for spiritual upliftment.

Ps. For a substance I would recomend Mescaline, out those I've tried, Marijuana, Mushrooms, LSD, Salvia Divinorium(sp?) though I used DMT or LSA which maybe also good, or Ibogaine but that seems to be fairly harsh in a few respects. I'm sure there are many others. But I'd say it's probably best to use different ones at differnt times. You will sort all this stuff out for yourself I guess.

Best of luck.

quote:Originally posted by Schraff:

I was on acid with a few close friends in the park. One was a little younger than I, and we weer having this amazing conversation on social interactions. Offhandedly, he said, "Yeah, because we're all connected." As the significance of this seemingly nonchalant statement sank in, he breathed, "Oh my god." I kissed his hands and told him he understood; we were both so happy. We both lay on the grass, I could hear the earth "talking"; not really words, of course, but a feeling that couldn't be mistaken for anything else. It was vibrations sent from the core of the planet, echoed in a million tiny voices of the grass, deep sighs of the trees...



I had that same feeling myself, an it to was one of the best days I can remember.

Exept I was in my car about to go to sleep. I was thinking about god and how I'd heard someone say that we were all part one consciousness that is god. Then I felt that feeling of oneness. I looked outta my window at the trees and sky and was breath taken.

Not really felt it since, but I work towards it via meditation and stuff.

Well, as for the topic question, I first heard of salvia divinorum on message boards for lucid dreaming and astral projection, so my interest in spirituality was definitely the reason I ordered some.

If you would say that feeling time as infinite moments that give birth to the next and the next, feeling your consciousness imagining your consciousness imagining your consciousness (that goes in sync with the eternity feeling)... losing focus in your eyes to show you that everything seems so connected, then yeah I'd definitely say my experiences with weed and salvia combined were somewhat spiritual, if you think it was in my head, that's fine too. Everyone can believe what they want.

Something salvia also did was brought back a childhood memory, I had experienced something like this before, feeling infinite. I had just forgotten... now I remember.

Salvia is amazing, I had one of my friends try it, and the first time it didn't even do anything to them. The second time they finally saw what I saw, and sitting there, trying to explain it we realized that what's outside the box can't be explained with words that were created here inside the box. It can only be experienced. He said it was one of the most profound experiences of his life, it felt so great to show someone the effects of salvia. I really think it's something people need to try at least once.

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

I'm interested in what makes you rank Dramamine #4.

Its all about the person man. Sure most people don't find diphenyhydramine to be enjoyable for [to some] obvious reasons, but if she can look past that and find the good in it and use it to benifit herself, then by all means thats great!

[This message has been edited by SEN D-F (edited 03-11-2004).]

Personally, Ive found high doses of DXM to be quite spiritual. On 1.8g Ive traveled across the universe, seen beings that may or may not have been a God, etc..... Hallucinations or not, the point is it opened my mind to new things and made me think.

Weed as well. Even on moderate doses, just laying back and thinking can be something extraordinary. And shrooms defenitly offer one a chance to dive deep into their minds, but I have never taken them outside of a recreational sense. Not that I never will, thats just how its been upto this point.

quote:Originally posted by Fuck:

Something salvia also did was brought back a childhood memory, I had experienced something like this before, feeling infinite. I had just forgotten... now I remember.



Damn me aswell. I swear when I was younger I had spiritual experiences all the time. I can't remember specific times, but I can remember feelings that I once had. Also I'm sure that when I was really young (Like from 0-2) I used to astral project. Not because I wanted to but because I didn't have any programmed beliefs to limit what I could do and it'd just happen. I'd be laying on my back staring at the ceiling and suddenly I'd find myself there.

Also, even tho I didn't have any knowledge about things like "The power of belief" I used to be scared that If I thought hard enough I could turn on my lightswitch with my mind. For this reason I'd try hard not to think about my light switch.

When you'r a kid spiritual exploration could be great coz your so in the moment and you aint limited by beliefs, the only thing is your not aware of the possibilities.

Damn this thread is good. I gotta try salvia divinorum. Where do you get it from?

[This message has been edited by ---Beany--- (edited 03-11-2004).]

I thought that I needed drugs to reach this state, as the first time I experienced anything spiritual, was after me almost dying from a bad batch of MDMA. But, I've never touched the stuff since, well one time I was with this really hot girl and we had rolls, but that was really the last time. After this, I had a few while really stoned, and some more while on acid. Yet the most profound feelings of connection, have come to me while just walking, sober as can be. Now it happens even when I'm cleaning my house. Believe it or not, training for empty hands combat, is a great way to meditate. For in order to be good at it one must meld mind and body, as one. This makes it easier to listen to the spirit. Usually, the body is saying one thing while the mind says another, and neither have anything to do with the spirit. Yet, when I spar, or even practice techniques, time seems to slow down, it's almost as if I just think and instantly I move. It's hard to describe, it's just when you are connected to your true self, that part of you that lacks nothing, that wants nothing. All I feel is peace, even if a punch is coming towards my face.

This peaceful state isn't difficult to reach. It's just that I know how I want to feel and I keep that. A lot of people start our positive, which is creative and leads to creative things. Then people attach all sorts of expectations on what this positive thing has to be, then when they experience this positive thing, it doesn't fill a persons's expectations. Naturaly, afterwards the person feels frustrated, and this creative thought leads to more frustration, and this is usually the time a person complains: "Why did this have to happen to me?." And they feel througly frustrated because they attached no expectations towards their frustration, therefore manifesting it in their physical reality.

Nothing but a subjective reaction, to objective phenomena. The opposite of this is also true. To experience what you call happiness, or peace, or love, or spirituality. All you need to do is focus on how you want to feel, and don't expect anything. Expecations are traps that separate us from freedom. Anything that separates you from freedom is not real, because freedom is the truth. Without expecations, as long as you stay focused on how you want to feel, and pay attention to what you are doing, you will experience what you want to feel freely without limit.

Beany, I ordered mine (a gram of standardized 10X extract) from http://www.iamshaman.com/eshop/10Browse.asp?Category=Salvia%20divinorum

quote:Originally posted by ilbastardoh:

Yet the most profound feelings of connection, have come to me while just walking, sober as can be

I know exactly what you're talking about. Just looking around noticing all the lives being lived and whirling in and out of your life on their busy day. All the splendor and simplicity of a balanced nature.

Until you get a good whiff of smog and someone splashes puddle water on your new pants.

quote:Originally posted by ilbastardoh:

Until you get a good whiff of smog and someone splashes puddle water on your new pants.

*rapes ilbastardoh*