For a moment, let's just assume that the bible is all factual, and everything the bible says is completely literal.

Alright.

There a couple different type of divine creations (minus other earthly animals and the etc.): angels, humans, and the occassional angel that has been granted a restricted version of freewill, like Lucifer. He's allowed to make his own decisions, but not act upon them.

That said, I'm going to state the obvious:

Heaven: good place where everything is perfect, there's no decisions to make because anything you choose is the right decision, and all you have to do is float around and sing all day long.

Hell: bad place where everything is horrible, there's no peace or rest in lakes of toiling fire and brimstone, and all you can do is work to be as evil as possible so you can work your way up the - oddly capitalist sounding - "evil scale".

Earth: Pretty okay place, there's good, there's bad, there's plenty of choices between the two, and all you really have to do is maintain your physical body so you don't expire.

Now, as an example, I'll use Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

These were gods first humans and the beginning of his human experiment. He put two flawed humans with free will into a perfect existance.

In the Garden of Eden there were no bad choices, because everything was perfect. Therefore, there were no choices worth making. And human psychology requires we make choices because of our freewill. So, they really had no choice but to disobey god and eat from the Tree of Knowledge, or else they'd go insane and die.

Point made: human spirits with freewill cannot live in a perfect environment.

So, then why is Heaven a spiritual goal? By definition, wouldn't Hell actually be a more suitable place for humans? We wouldn't be able to "survive" in a Heavenly environment, but in a Hellish environment we'd have endless excercise of our freewill.

Just my latest spectulation.

Cheers,

Lost

I see what you're saying, I think.

Basically you're saying if we were perfect spirits living in a perfect environment, the there's no point making choices because each one will always be perfect. So how did they come to make a bad choice?

I guess if everythings so perfect that there was no point making a choice, then your experiences will be flowing perfectly from one moment to the next and you are just the observer, so how can we possibly want to stray from the perfect path?

Maybe we didn't choose to stray but it was forced upon by god. Maybe he gave us free will, but part of the perfect flow was to look away from the path of perfection. Perfection led us to look the other way, and although it might seem bad to us, it was still the perfect choice in god eyes.

The thing is free will isn't a great thing. If you were constantly following the will of god (IE: Following the perfect pre-made choices) then you would experience perfection, and there is nothing negative about this otherwise it wouldn't be perfection.

If however you were exercising your free will, as we do, sure you'd be free to make choices, but having deviated from the path of perfection, the choices wouldn't be perfect and so we'd suffer imperfect reactions.

I guess hell is straying from the path as far as is possible.

well, it's a good thing there isn't a perfect environment lying around somewhere, or we'd all be doomed to insanity. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

well, now that we've said that,

let's just suppose that the Bible is complete crap

that there is no literal heavn and there is no literal hell

let's just suppose that each human being has a limited opportunity to create a legacy which will live on from him as his immortality.

There are good choices which he can make to this end, and there are bad choices which he can make to this end.

If he makes good choices, the world becomes a better place, and paradise results.

If he makes bad choices, the world goes to crap and is rewarded with misery.

If the world as a collective entity decides that it wants to be happy, (obviously not going to happen, there are too many Texans running about), it can shape the world into what it wants it to be, and what ensues is a spiral of events whch progressively make the world as a whole a better and better place for them to live in.

Then I drop a bomb on their stupid little happy, pure, uncynical heads.

I win,

Game's over,

and your God can't help you now.

Have fun in your fucking hell, because it's all resultant from what YOU have done.

Not your neighbour, not your Father, not that chink who works across the street.

Every person has choices, and not realising them simply because of your upbringing is no fucking excuse.

Quit whining and take the end of the world like a man, you pussy little cowards.

You God cannot save you from a knife that you impale into your own back, even if you couldn't see it coming.

You walked, you fell, you died.

Welcome to my hell, you fucking bastards...

Wow. Impressive.

I beleiev in a God and I don't think he will save me from anything. I don't think he'd be worried if I was ten seconds from falling off a 50 story building and I don't think he'd do anything to prevent it. Just thought I'd point that out after reading Phrensied Rabbits' post.

As for heaven and perfection, I myself don't believe in heaven/hell but I will [for the sake of argument] assume it to be true right now. Perhaps when we die we escape our human nature? We sure as hell escape our human bodies [belief in God/heaven/hell or not, theres no denying our bodies are dead and no longer good to us] so whos to say we don't change 'mentally' [for lack of a better word].

Perhaps those accepted into heaven are accepted because their faith in God has led them to an understanding of perfection and what it takes to live it? Or maybe when we all die we are given all the answers to life and death, so our perception of perfection changes.

I guess we can never really comment about how a human would react in a perfect enviroment because we can;t truly understand it. We never have, and probably never will experience true perfection in our lives, and we have no idea what things are like when we die so we have no idea what we will know or understand.

But I'd say that if we did die and stay in the same 'mental' state it would probably be very wierd to enter a world of perfection. We would have a hard time existing because we would never really be making choices. I guess you could say we'd be choosing between a set of perfect options, but can it really be considered a choice if its bound to limitations? By defintion yes, but truly I'd say no. We'd simply be moving between perfect acts and not really choosing so much as accepting our current state. I guess this could make a human mind a bit crazy, but if we are in a state of perfection, would our minds be in the same state, therefore understanding and embracing its perfect surroundings? Would a perfect mind thrive in a perfect world? Probably.

I guess its more an issue of what state we enter when we die.

I was under the impression that Heaven is God Himself, become one with God, "When the perfect comes the part(us/I) passes away..." although there maybe different worlds that are heavenly, this is not the perfect state that we should strive for, which is only complete union with God, this can be attained only in a formless state, which can be achived in an incarnated form, but not absolutely maintained while awearness is identified with any form, ie. the bod(ies) obviously ego is an important part of functioning in this world, so heaven is not realy any place, but rather with in you as they say.

quote:Originally posted by SEN D-F:



Perhaps when we die we escape our human nature? We sure as hell escape our human bodies [belief in God/heaven/hell or not, theres no denying our bodies are dead and no longer good to us] so whos to say we don't change 'mentally' [for lack of a better word].

- That's part of one of the things I've been thinking about lately. I don't, personally, believe the bible is factual, either - but, what, exactly, becomes of a human spirit, when we die, according to the bible.

According to Christianity our spirits go to Heaven if we're good and go to Hell, if we're bad. But, as I've illustrated, I don't think Heaven would be a very nice place for a human spirit.

In Judaism our spirits go somewhere completely different, aside from Heaven or Hell. But, this place is indisclosed and undescribed, which leaves a gap in the debate.

So, I've made it part of my "trying to figure out Christianity quest".

I can't imagine our freewill is revoked when we die. It was supposedly given to us, by god, as a gift. But, without meaningfull choices our freewill is pointless and we become meaningless creatures of a meaningless existance.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SEN D-F:



Or maybe when we all die we are given all the answers to life and death, so our perception of perfection changes.

[/QOUTE]

That's the answer I consistantly get from religious people, just after the look of desperation, confusion, and doubt are pushed off their face. It sounds like an empty statement created to temporarily justify their beliefs until they can think of why I'm wrong.

The statement is full of holes.

Sure, our picture of perfect would be changed, undoubtably. If Heaven is, in fact, as perfect as it's supposed to be, we've never seen anything like it and would have no concept of it until we see it. However, that doesn't change the fact that if it's perfect we wouldn't have any way to excercise what precisely makes us human: freewill.

And I know you say we can't know how humans would do in such an existance, but through psychological and scientific study I think we can make a pretty good educated guess as to how we would do. How would you do in a place where everything was perfect? If you got everything you wanted before you even asked for it?

Wasn't there a Twilight Zone episode about this?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SEN D-F:



By defintion yes, but truly I'd say no. We'd simply be moving between perfect acts and not really choosing so much as accepting our current state. I guess this could make a human mind a bit crazy, but if we are in a state of perfection, would our minds be in the same state, therefore understanding and embracing its perfect surroundings? Would a perfect mind thrive in a perfect world? Probably.



[/QOUTE]

I disagree. I think if it's true, and our human spirits with freewill remain human spirits with freewill, they would not be able to happily exist in a perfect world. Even if they were - as you said - simple accepting and moving between each perfect moment, eventually something would have to break.

But, I suppose that's just my personal opinion.

O, and somebody has major aggression issues.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

For a moment, let's just assume that the bible is all factual, and everything the bible says is completely literal.





Sorry, couldn't do it http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif) http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif) http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Cheers 2u2 http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

This is something I too have pondered. To be honest the traditional view of heaven seems like, for want of a better word, hell.

In heaven we will know no sin. Now this smacks of no free will, and when we are only given one option, all of our apparent choices are predetermined. Thus removing the only thing seperating us from angels and dooming us to an existence of servitude.

Now I believe that most people consider the concept of heaven so obvious that they really give it no actual thought at all. Heaven is just associated with eternal bliss, hanging out with jesus and meeting up with our desceased loved ones. This is just ridiculous, as whoever is promoting this place is just giving the masses what they want and hoping they will be satisfied.

Therefore I believe that the traditional heaven or paradise cannot exist as people in their current state coud not possibly cope with a perfect existance. The only solution then woud be to make the people themselves perfect, there being only one form of perfection (god perhaps) this would take away all individuality and everything that makes us human, effectivly killing us. (if we were to become part of god we wouldnt be around to enjoy the experience)

I've talked to pastors about this, and they say that in heaven (which no one is in right now by the way), Lucifer has no power whatsoever. We'll still have freewill, but the desire to sin simply won't exist because there's no tempation to sin. Even in Eden, it was the serpent who temped Eve. She wasn't going to eat it on her own.

So the choice between pizza and ice cream is meaningless because you can't go wrong with either?

I don't buy it.

The problem with religions that take things too seriously is that they make things that should be mental and make them literal.

The believe that a person who simply believes that God just exist will live forever in his mercy is wrong in two major ways-

1- Thinking that you can go to "Heaven by simply acknowledging that something is not nonexistant is completely absurd.

What? were they so desperate for people to join their faith that they lowered the standards that much?

2- The belief that they will physically go to a real, existant world completely seperate from our own and yet entirely codependant completely negates the fact that they believe The One Who IS made them human, for all the reasons you've said above.

The assumption that any peson can literally live forever simply confounds people who bother to take a step back from religious fervor to truly examine what they have mindlessly believed in and followed for so long now.

A person who is completely worldly (and I'm not talking about this in a capitalist sense, but I am, as so many posts before me, lacking a word to accurately display what I'm meaning at this moment) in theirideology might realize this and say that the way in which a man lives forever is to do deeds so great that they are remembered, or so terrible that they are imprinted on the memories of all who come after.

That a man, no matter how close to what he thinks is God is in his daily life, cannot attain heaven by simply believing that he has exists (the man) and that something must have created him.

That he must work to create this perfect world, or work to make his world a hell.

That you were there, and you, and you, and nothing really matters but your ability to not be a jackass, which so many people are, including myself, the only difference is that some of us, like me, actually realize it.

It doesn't mean we care, just that we know

Welcome to Hell, a friendly community

If you'd like to visit your grave, press one

If you'd like to ass rape Hitler, press two...

I forgot the obvious thing. Through prayer you are to become accusomed to this, becomming closer to perfection and conforming to God's will, so therefore there is little to keep you out of heaven unless you want to go against God's will, which is what caused the fall in the first place.

I guess the real question is if you equate the Garden of Eden with Heaven then why would Adam/Eve choose to leave or take actions which may cause them to be booted out?

Ok, so heaven is eternal bliss and prayer is like the next best thing?

Then why dont we have people addicted to god, who sit around all day with a big grin on their faces as they chat with the big guy?

quote:Originally posted by Diokhan:

Ok, so heaven is eternal bliss and prayer is like the next best thing?

Then why dont we have people addicted to god, who sit around all day with a big grin on their faces as they chat with the big guy?

You've never heard of Buddhist monks?

those would be hindu-buddhist

pure buddhism doesn't have a "God" persay

but, of course, the Jew wouldn't know anything about that because he's too busy feeling superior

quote:Originally posted by Diokhan:

Ok, so heaven is eternal bliss and prayer is like the next best thing?

Then why dont we have people addicted to god, who sit around all day with a big grin on their faces as they chat with the big guy?

Those people do exist, and they're scary.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

I've talked to pastors about this, and they say that in heaven (which no one is in right now by the way), Lucifer has no power whatsoever. We'll still have freewill, but the desire to sin simply won't exist because there's no tempation to sin. Even in Eden, it was the serpent who temped Eve. She wasn't going to eat it on her own.

so the devil did make me do it...good to know

well, that would mean that the devil made everybody do it, so it's just as useless as ever, I'm afraid

Sorry to go Kabbalistic on your collective ass, but I think that when we die God would remove our Yetzer Hara (evil impulse), and therefore we would always want to make the right decisions.

And it doesn't really mention a hell as such in the Bible, it's more of a Christian idea.

And Lucifer was sent down to the earth, and not, as most people think, to hell.

And it wasn't possible to die in Gan Eden, so I think they'd just go insane.

JESUS IS AN ALIEN!

quote:Originally posted by Diokhan:

Ok, so heaven is eternal bliss and prayer is like the next best thing?

Then why dont we have people addicted to god, who sit around all day with a big grin on their faces as they chat with the big guy?

We do, most of them are in India.

Prayer/meditation isn't something you can just do. You have to practice and know how to do it.

quote:Originally posted by Aphelion Corona:

Sorry to go Kabbalistic on your collective ass, but I think that when we die God would remove our Yetzer Hara (evil impulse), and therefore we would always want to make the right decisions.

And it doesn't really mention a hell as such in the Bible, it's more of a Christian idea.

And Lucifer was sent down to the earth, and not, as most people think, to hell.

And it wasn't possible to die in Gan Eden, so I think they'd just go insane.

Hell was plagiarized from the Pagan Germanic tribes.

quote:Originally posted by Phrensied Rabbits:

those would be hindu-buddhist

pure buddhism doesn't have a "God" persay

but, of course, the Jew wouldn't know anything about that because he's too busy feeling superior

Removing selfish desire, having compassion, and being mindful. How does that make one inferior?

See, it's conversations like this that make reincarnation seem like such a more acceptable/easy theory, I tell you what.