Whether god can or cannot change his mind is a rather common speculation and so I thought I might illustrate a particular part of the bible where it appears that god changed his mind.

The story of Cain and Abel is full of holes to begin with. Why Cain would kill Abel over something so minor? Why did god choose Abels offering over Cains? What were Adam and Eve doing during this whole scene? Was Cain homocide really murder since he'd never seen a dead human before, did he know that what he was doing would kill Abel? What, exactly, was the mark god marked Cain with? etc... etc...

And then there is a distinct moment, in the story, where god must have changed his mind.:

Originally, gods punishment for Cains deed was that he would live alone, forever, in the land of Nod. The land of Nod is often misconstrued as an actual place, when, "nod" actually translates to "wander". So, basically, anywhere Cain would be would be the land of Nod. So, god married him to a life of wandering alone.

Though there is speculation that the mark upon him was a dog, that god gave him as a consolation. However, judging by the way the story continues, I don't too much relevancy in that theory.

So, here is this guy who god has condemned to wander alone forever and then all of a sudden he has a wife. Therefore, god must've changed his mind about condemning Cain to lonesomeness forever.

The origin of this wife is unknown, though it's believed that (since Adam and Eve did have many children) that she was a sister of some sort. She is of no description and has no name.

Then Cain settles and builds the first city. How could Cain settle if he's been condemned to a life of wandering unless god had changed his mind again?

Was this example of the earliest stages of gods experiments with humans? He condemned Cain to eternal lonesomeness before realizing humans cannot live completely alone? Did he feel guilty for having a part in the death of Abel because he accepted Abels offering and not Cains? Is that why he took back the punishment of wandering and lonesomeness?

Now, according to the story, even though Cain was granted his family and city, he never reconciled with god and led a "spiritually empty" life.

In Judaism this is used to illustrate the concept that heaven and hell aren't places you go to, that Cain is in hell because he has no god.

It's also speculated that Cains wife symbolized heaven (having no name or description and otherwise being of mysterious origin, but providing complete comfort). And that god watched over Cain through his wife.

Statement ended.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

Why Cain would kill Abel over something so minor?

Why do some men kill the men their woman is having an affair with?

Jealousy's a bitch.

Besides, it's not like any smart fellow thinks that Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel is fact and not allegorical.

I too have pondered about where the hell Cain's wife came from, though.

maybe the dog is his wife, or vice versa

maybe God gave him this "bitch"

and just condemned him to live outside his other human creations so he could go on with his experiment.

so, theoretically, he could still continue to live and create whatever the hell he wanted, as long as he didn't interfere with God's little experiment.

The reason I have been given for why God rejected Cain's offering is that it was not a blood offering, which is consistent with Old Testament law. As for what happened to Cain after he left, I dunno.

It's obvious, God made his wife and his city out of his rib. Wait, that doesn't make any sense.....

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Why do some men kill the men their woman is having an affair with?

Jealousy's a bitch.

Besides, it's not like any smart fellow thinks that Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel is fact and not allegorical.

I too have pondered about where the hell Cain's wife came from, though.



So that story wasnt intended to be taken literally? Says who?

Anyone here read "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn? It has a novel explanation for the story of Cain and Abel. I'll summarize what I remember.

It's generally agreed on that totalitorian agriculture (i.e. all food comes from farming) started in the Fertile Crescent, an area of the middle east. In order to grow, these farming populations needed more land. To get it they killed off competing tribes, many of whom were pastoralists (herders). According to Quinn, one tribe of herders that came into contact with these agriculturalists were the ancient Semites (who later became the Hebrews).

Basically the Semites wrote the story of Cain and Abel into their belief system to explain these warlike farmers who were killing off other tribes to constantly get more land. Cain represents the farmers and Abel the herders. God accepts Abel's sacrifice because Abel's God is the Semites God. Cain is rejected because he represents an enemy tribe. The significance of Cain killing Abel should be obvious by now: farmers (Cain) were killing herders (Abel).

What do you think?

quote:Originally posted by NewDude:

So that story wasnt intended to be taken literally? Says who?

Says I.

I think that, when compared to other Old Testament material, if it seems too unbelievable or illogical, it's far more likely that it was intended to be allegorical.

What makes my conclusions any less valid or possible than a real Rabbi who thought about the same problem a millenia ago?

"Besides, it's not like any smart fellow thinks that Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel is fact and not allegorical."

- I'm speaking theoretically, of course.

"maybe the dog is his wife, or vice versa

maybe God gave him this "bitch"

and just condemned him to live outside his other human creations so he could go on with his experiment."

- That's the explanation they give in Beowulf (which, is one of my favorite stories).

"The reason I have been given for why God rejected Cain's offering is that it was not a blood offering, which is consistent with Old Testament law. As for what happened to Cain after he left, I dunno."

- It clearly states in the Old Testament that an offering of grain is of as much value as an offering of meat; and god didn't ask for an offering of anything particular other than the best that they had. So, obviously, if the best Cain had was grain, then it should've been accepted as well as Abels offering of meat.

The only explanation for this, that I can think of, is that, perhaps Cain just brought whatever was lying around and Abel brought his actual best. But, it doesn't say this anywhere in the bible.

Joeb, that's probably the truth behind it. This is just for speculation. Though, very good response. I have read that book; pretty interesting stuff.

Still, no one has commented on the idea of god being able to change his mind, as if he were simply a scientist and they were all some sort of strange experimental germ he was splicing in a petri dish, and he was just trying to figure out how to work with it as it developed into it's own creature.

Cheers,

Lost

The Rambam said that God is beyond our imagination. He is all knowing, and would therefore have no need to change his mind, because he can see into the future. If He did change his mind, He would have known that He would, and therefore would not be changing His mind, so the answer is no, God can obviously change His mind if He so chooses, but because He can see the future, He wouldn't be changing his mind like we would.

damn, man, you've killed all ours discussions!

hehehe, lmao...

man, what are we going to talk about now then, eh?

I've not killed them! I'm just trying to give the Orthodox Judaic view of these issues. It doesn't mean you can't discuss them.

But if you want to discuss something, discuss why God would make so many Gays if they are forbidden from having Gay sex. Do you think that it is because they can reach a higher spiritual level of enlightenment as celibate individuals, like Abraham?

Let not the foreigner say,

Who has attached himself to the Lord,

"The Lord will keep me separate from His people";

And let not the eunuch say,

"I am a withered tree."

In the Talmud, a eunuch is not necessarily a castrated male, but a male who is not going to reproduce for various reasons (Yevamot 80b. Why does Isaiah turn his attention here to the foreigners and the eunuchs? In the chain of the covenantal family, the foreigner has no past and the eunuch no future. They both seem excluded from the covenantal frame of reference. It is this "exclusion" that the prophet addresses:

For thus said the Lord:

"As for the eunuchs who keep my sabbaths,

Who have chosen what I desire

And hold fast to My covenant--

I will give them, in My House

And within my walls,

A monument and a name

Better than sons or daughters.

I will give them an everlasting name

Which shall not perish.

(http://philo.ucdavis.edu/zope/home/bruce/RST23/STDNTPAGES/rst23-ORTHODOX.HTM)

Just something I found.

Aphelion Corona has not killed the topics. He brings an Orthodox Judaic view on it.

However, Aphelion, this is all speculation. I'm trying to avoid having any particular point of view (though, I'm also Jewish). I find it much more interesting to leave thing open instead of giving difinitive answers to things that, ultimate, cannot be difinitively answered.

So (though I value your input. You seem to have a good grasp on your study.) for sake of discussion, please refrain from anwers such as "no" or "yes" without stating that it's your personal opinion or point of view.

Not everyone is so intelligent on this board. You have to make things very clear.

quote:Originally posted by Aphelion Corona:

The Rambam said that God is beyond our imagination. He is all knowing, and would therefore have no need to change his mind, because he can see into the future. If He did change his mind, He would have known that He would, and therefore would not be changing His mind, so the answer is no, God can obviously change His mind if He so chooses, but because He can see the future, He wouldn't be changing his mind like we would.

In speculation to your answer, in my original statement I'm presupposing that perhaps god is something else than that. Perhaps he's all knowing and omnipotent simply because he created us and our universe.

For instance, if you created a terrarium, and creatures started to evolve inside the terrarium, you would be god to them. You'd know everything going on inside and basically understand their whole universe on such a greater scale than them that, in comparison, you would be perfectly omnipotent.

You'd also know what would happen to them if you did something to them, making you be able to see the future. But, is god knowing the future or is he the future? And what's the difference?

What if god is just a scientist of sorts, existing on a level so much greater than ours that it's incomprehensible to us, and we're his experiment. He works with us knowing everything about us, but still, because we're our own creatures, works through trial and error, and that the story of Cain is suggestive of the earliest stages of this experiment?

Of course, as stated above, the bible, I believe, should be taking with a grain of salt. But, just for sake of conversation...

Cheers,

Lost

Well then I guess it depends on your definition of omnipotent. If he were truly omnipotent then He wouldn't neeed to, but if He were only omnipotent compared to us, and therefore not truly omnipotent, then he could change his mind. The thing is you'd need a load of evidence to suggest that God is not truly omnipotent to say that He can change His mind, and so the real question is how can we prove that God is omnipotent and omniscient?

quote:Originally posted by Aphelion Corona:

The Rambam said that God is beyond our imagination. He is all knowing, and would therefore have no need to change his mind, because he can see into the future. If He did change his mind, He would have known that He would, and therefore would not be changing His mind, so the answer is no, God can obviously change His mind if He so chooses, but because He can see the future, He wouldn't be changing his mind like we would.



This is should be quite clear to anyone who is openminded to the idea of God, but due to the feableminded attempts of those who try in vain to disprove somthing they don't have any understanding of people continue to post these pointless topics. Not suprisingly though when you consider the childish name of this forum. I don't know why I bother cuz it is clearly a topic the majority of the children in this forum are not open to, but I wil continue to annoy them with my posts from time to time.



[This message has been edited by Lysergamideman (edited 03-06-2004).]

anyone who says they dont believe in god and then ask questions about him, obviously believe in him or they wouldnt ask questions. that would just be a waste of time.

think about it.

Bullshit. Asking questions about something you don't necessarily believe in can grant valuable insights about whoever you are talking to and what they believe. The only people who waste time are those who ask no questions and never learn.

The concept of God is an almighty, omnipotent, omnipresent, and formless being. God can do what God wants. It's that simple, like when he sent the ten tribes to the north and to the east instead of having them killed for idolatry.

I'm a Catholic-raised, now Agnostic.