How can anybody justify their religion when they consider history, even briefly?

If you think about it, you'll see that religion has opposed nearly every advance in science, humanities, etc.; basically anything that threatened the stability of the religion in power has been attacked in every way imaginable...let's draw a parallel to today's society. What are a few of the issues facing America today? Gay Unions, Abortion, separation of church and state?

Religion has caused or ameliorated virtually every conflict in history and continues to do so today. Therefore it's existence is unjustifiable.

Religion has also been responsible for a massive amount of charity, good conduct, and social conscience. The first recorded antiwar protest in history was carried out by catholic seminary students in Castile, for shit's sakes. Like any institution, religion has a good side and a bad side.

A&A

Realistic Atheist

.....and science brought us the nuke, not religion.

Though I do feel religion has caused more problems then its solved.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Religion has also been responsible for a massive amount of charity, good conduct, and social conscience. The first recorded antiwar protest in history was carried out by catholic seminary students in Castile, for shit's sakes. Like any institution, religion has a good side and a bad side.

A&A

Realistic Atheist

Well yea, but Nazi rule of Germany also brought along great production rates and a reduction of poverty, but you don't hear anybody arguing that Nazi rule was a positive institution, do you? Well, anybody who's not a nutball, anyhow.

When an organization does more harm than good, it's unjustifiable.

Edit: Crusades and Ptolemaic vs. Copernican universe...think about those two events in history.

[This message has been edited by deptstoremook (edited 03-14-2004).]

this is not it...

anybody can say they are of any faith or religion and simply behave in whatever manner they want.

this doesn't mean that their actions are representing their religion. religion is used and abused as a banner to hide under.

don't judge the religion by the actions of the bad.

read about religions and you'll see it is man and not religion that has caused so many problems.

at the heart of all religion is love. not so of all men.

religion has been persecuted so many times for it's horrendous misrepresentations by man...

namaste

This is why i am agnostic, Religon has caused so many problems. We do not need church to get people to give to charity, people can be giving and kind with out the fear of going to hell.

quote:Originally posted by onion jack 67:

this is not it...

anybody can say they are of any faith or religion and simply behave in whatever manner they want.

this doesn't mean that their actions are representing their religion. religion is used and abused as a banner to hide under.

don't judge the religion by the actions of the bad.

read about religions and you'll see it is man and not religion that has caused so many problems.

at the heart of all religion is love. not so of all men.

religion has been persecuted so many times for it's horrendous misrepresentations by man...

namaste

OK religion is good at heart, sure. But since men are inherently falliable and will abuse religion, that makes it bad.

Good in theory, bad in practice.

Religion is neither good nor bad. Religion exists to provide answers to unanswerable quesstions. People who hurt other people are bad.

A lot of wars have happened over money, land, even seasonings. I never hear anyone blame pepper or paprika for what stupid humans do.

quote:Originally posted by onion jack 67:

read about religions and you'll see it is man and not religion that has caused so many problems.

True, religion is just theories, ideas and stories of the past and what not, so logically it can't be responsible for anything.

However the issue is that so many humans take it so seriously, and get so touchy about it that they feel the need to fight and kill over what they believe is right. So I guess you could say it is religion thats the problem, as its the religious concepts that are turning man against eachother.

While i do agree with A&A i also disagree, for the longest time religion has caused war, even today it does(Muslim vs. Judeo-Christian) and it all starts with giving the wrong answer to the God Question

"Do you believe in God?"-"No"-BOOM dead

"Do you believe in God?"-"Yes"-"Do you believe in my God?"-"No"-BOOM dead,"MY GOD HAS A BIGGER DICK THAN YOUR GOD!"

~George Carlin

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

Well yea, but Nazi rule of Germany also brought along great production rates and a reduction of poverty, but you don't hear anybody arguing that Nazi rule was a positive institution, do you? Well, anybody who's not a nutball, anyhow.

When an organization does more harm than good, it's unjustifiable.

Edit: Crusades and Ptolemaic vs. Copernican universe...think about those two events in history.

[This message has been edited by deptstoremook (edited 03-14-2004).]

I hope you didn't just compare Christianity to Nazi rule. That's just fucking stupid, kid.

The Crusades? Yes, they were terrible. But who led the fight for emancipation of negro slaves? Protestant ministers. Who did a great amount of organizing behind the civil rights movement? Southern churches. Who set up the first hospices and charitable organizations in Europe? The Catholic Church. Who talked Attile The Hun out of leveling Rome and killing thousands? Pope Leo The Great. Who, by sheer, assumed spiritual willpower, forced a German Emperor - an Emperor for shit's sakes - to take a knee, beg penance for his slaughter, and swear to never commit such atrocities again. Yet another pope. And who was the first major figure in Western culture to assert that you don't, in fact, have a right to beat your wife for failing to produce a male heir? Why, the Apostle Paul, of course.

The crusades are an idiotic example, because they didn't happen, as our textbooks assert, just because The Pope Wanted People To Kill The Heathen Sand Niggers. They happened because the Arabs deliberately razed the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which was as much a political statement as a religious one. "Jihads" and "Crusades" are generally just a means of putting moral impetus behind very temporal objectives. Does anybody really believe that, even if the United States had never become involved in the Middle East, people would still be flying planes into our buildings? They say "Allahu Akbar," because society has taught them to say it - instead of, say, "You're standing on my neck and I'm sick of it."

So yes, even if there were no religion (a completely impossible state of affairs, btw, given human nature) there would still be wars, persecutions, forcible starvation, and slavery. There'd be slightly different reasoning behind it all, but the tangible facts would be exactly the same.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

I hope you didn't just compare Christianity to Nazi rule. That's just fucking stupid, kid.



From the top. First off, no need to be aggressive, that's not the way to win an argument.

Secondly, if you had read my post, you would have realized the message was this:

Things will always have good points and bad points; Nazi rule of Germany resulted in a great economy / happy populous, but most people wouldn't say that Nazi Germany was a 'good' state.

quote:But who led the fight for emancipation of negro slaves? Protestant ministers.

And who led the fight against emancipation of negro slaves (a redundant phrase, by the way)? Baptist ministers. You'll recall that Protestants and Baptists are both Christians.

quote:Who did a great amount of organizing behind the civil rights movement? Southern churches.

Name one predominantly white southern church that contributed significantly to the civil rights movement (with sources, please)

quote:Who set up the first hospices and charitable organizations in Europe? The Catholic Church.

Who set up the Spanish Inquisition? The Catholic Church.

quote:And who was the first major figure in Western culture to assert that you don't, in fact, have a right to beat your wife for failing to produce a male heir? Why, the Apostle Paul, of course.

Why, who was that English king who had one of his six wives executed for failing to produce a male heir (without so much as a squeak from Rome, if I may add)? Ah, yes, Henry VIII.

quote:

The crusades are an idiotic example, because they didn't happen, as our textbooks assert, just because The Pope Wanted People To Kill The Heathen Sand Niggers. They happened because the Arabs deliberately razed the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which was as much a political statement as a religious one. "Jihads" and "Crusades" are generally just a means of putting moral impetus behind very temporal objectives. Does anybody really believe that, even if the United States had never become involved in the Middle East, people would still be flying planes into our buildings? They say "Allahu Akbar," because society has taught them to say it - instead of, say, "You're standing on my neck and I'm sick of it."

Because your view of history is infinitely more accurate than a group of scholars with PhD's in history, right?

quote:

So yes, even if there were no religion (a completely impossible state of affairs, btw, given human nature) there would still be wars, persecutions, forcible starvation, and slavery. There'd be slightly different reasoning behind it all, but the tangible facts would be exactly the same.

'What if?''s don't have any real bearing whatsoever. We could what-if all day about every thing, and we'd get no where.

The point, you ask? For every good thing the church / religion has done, it's done 10 bad things. Therefore, since the magnitude of harm that it's caused is greater than that of the good it has done, it is a negative influence and should be done away with.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Religion is neither good nor bad. Religion exists to provide answers to unanswerable quesstions. People who hurt other people are bad.

A lot of wars have happened over money, land, even seasonings. I never hear anyone blame pepper or paprika for what stupid humans do.

Because we're not talking about spices or land or money, we're talking about religion. There are other bad things in the world besides religion obviously, but that's not what we're talking about here.

If religion, in practice, solely existed to provide answers to unanswerable questions, there would be no problem. However, religion has historically stuck it's nose where it doesn't belong.

Now you may say 'but the religion itself isn't bad'; to which I say 'you are correct', but when in practice (as Dark Magneto so eloquently summed up) we see that religion has historically become corrupt. Therefore it is a negative factor in society.

I think it is more of a case of various factions within the religions causing the problems.

A religion like any organisation has its different groupings.

How much religion affects your lifestyle is your choice, unless you are having it rammed down your throat because you’re under 16.

The crusades were opportunistic defensive wars, against a temporarily disunited but still expansionist Islam. Remember there was a time when the Mediterranean was a Christian ‘lake’.

religon is good casue it keeps people (christin and christian rip-offs) under control with the threat of hell. when god comes down and kicks me in the ass i will go to church, until then there is no god.

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

How can anybody justify their religion when they consider history, even briefly?

If you think about it, you'll see that religion has opposed nearly every advance in science, humanities, etc.; basically anything that threatened the stability of the religion in power has been attacked in every way imaginable...let's draw a parallel to today's society. What are a few of the issues facing America today? Gay Unions, Abortion, separation of church and state?

Religion has caused or ameliorated virtually every conflict in history and continues to do so today. Therefore it's existence is unjustifiable.

Depends on one's understanding of 'religion', what you are talking about sounds to me, more like theology than religion.

"we make a distinction between Religion and Theology--between Philosophy and Metaphysics. Religion, to us, means that intuitional realization of the existence of THE ALL, and one's relationship to it; while Theology means the attempts of men to ascribe personality, qualities, and characteristics to it; their theories regarding its affairs, will, desires, plans, and designs, and their assumption of the office of ''middle-men'' between THE ALL and the people.

Philosophy, to us, means the inquiry after knowledge of things knowable and thinkable; while Metaphysical means the attempt to carry the inquiry over and beyond the boundaries and into regions unknowable and unthinkable, and with the same tendency as that of Theology.

...consequently, both Religion and Philosophy mean to us things having roots in Reality, while Theology and Metaphysics seem like broken reeds, rooted in the quicksands of ignorance, and affording naught but the most insecure support for the mind or soul of Man. " (Hermetic Philosophy)

It's like arguing over god, first we must define what we mean by god. A supernatural being, or the first/controlling principle/law, or The All, or Brahman, Tao etc.

Would banning all religion, on the basis of what you believe religion to be, result in conflict - the very thing you are condemning?

PeaceCompassionEquanimity http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

As someone who grew up without being constantly exposed to religion, I was shocked when I researched it as I grew older and found out what a load of useless crap it was. My primary reaction:

"People BELEIVE this shit?"

Say what you will, but if you're left to form your own opinions and conclusioons and questions about life, you'll find you don't need to depend on religion.

It's basically a bunch of theories and "laws" made to keep the sheep happy, anyway. Useless, useless crap. And don't say that without it, people would die. Only weak people need an unproven truth to beleive in. If they can't bring themselves to be strong on their own, who needs 'em?

Onion Jack- You made a good point about how people often misuse religion and and all that. but the way i feel about it religion Is, In and of itself, just as big of a problem. If you look at christianity for instance, the primary component is that Christians are all right, and everyone else is wrong, and christians are going to heaven and everyone else hell. coudl there be anything that woudl more easily lead to an intollerant attitude? another bad point of it is that it totally radicalizes people, until they feel that they need to shoot abortion doctors and throw dead fetises at them. another bad point is that, obviously, religion causes great ignorance. that is by how it tells its desciples a ton of lies explaining how the world came about and jesus was the son of god and everything else. i agree with you that many bad people hav done bad things in the name of religion that do not neccesarily represent that religion, but on the other hand religion is defineatly inherently bad, and does cause problems in and of itself. it creates the intolerance and ignorance that has been the basis for most of the horrendous acts christianity is responsible for.



P.S. - in respone to armed and angery's post. about all the great things different christians did like civil rights reforms. first of all, all those bad things that needed to be changed were the RESULT of christianity. and second, considering about 99% of the country was christian when all this happened that you mentioned, chances are the few people bright enough to change things would probably be christians.

Where in the new testament does Jesus encourage his followers to adopt an intolerant additude or kill disbelievers? The only commandment Jesus gave was John 13:34-35:



A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.



Does that sound inherantly evil to you? I dunno, it doesn't to me. The christians you're hating aren't following Jesus' teaching.

- I could get into how the Nazis ultimately doomed the economy, but that's neither here nor there, so let's continue.

- Actually, Baptists ARE Protestants. But again, neither here nor there. Note however that pro-slavery preachers generally based their arguments on the avoidance of societal chaos (with occasional lip service to such entirely metaphorical examples as the "Three Slaves Parable," which had nothing to do with slavery). Abolitionists almost always used actual scripture.

- One? Just one white church? Actually, I believe I have a book ("Christianity on Trial" - pick it up some time) listing several. It's in my dorm room right now, but keep nagging me and I'll give you all the info you like when I'm back at UI.

- Are you honestly saying that the Spanish Inquisition (limited, as the name would suggest, to Spain) was more negative than the very foundation of charity was positive?

- Okay, if you think the Pope didn't "squeak" about Henry's doings, you're not terribly well informed. There was that whole excommunication thing, after all. And how is it that the misdoings of ONE man claiming to be a Christian (and disowned by the rest of Europe's Christians) outweigh the works of the founder of Christianity as we know it?!?

- You respond to my crusades bit like all scholars see the same way you do about it. They don't. And that response of yours did absolutely nothing to refute the substance of my statement, so I'm just gonna go ahead, sit here, smoke my cigarette, and chuckle at you until you give me something a little more extensive than that. Come on, Mook, you can do it! I know you can!

Going any further would require me to do some research, which I am totally not up to; but that's neither here nor there.

I think I'm right and you think you're right so let's leave it at that (and this is why I'm a crappy debater)

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

How can anybody justify their religion when they consider history, even briefly?

If you think about it, you'll see that religion has opposed nearly every advance in science, humanities, etc.; basically anything that threatened the stability of the religion in power has been attacked in every way imaginable...let's draw a parallel to today's society. What are a few of the issues facing America today? Gay Unions, Abortion, separation of church and state?

Religion has caused or ameliorated virtually every conflict in history and continues to do so today. Therefore it's existence is unjustifiable.

Religion is a fucking disease that impares the prelation of human thoughts, intelligence and existance. It's contagious and it is the divider of mankind.



[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 03-18-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Religion is a fucking disease that impares the prelation of human thoughts, intelligence and existance. It's contagious and it is the divider of mankind.



[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 03-18-2004).]

Prelation? Nice word, I see your command of the English language is bragable. You're the kind of person who gives my viewpoint a bad name. Go away thanks.

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

Prelation? Nice word, I see your command of the English language is bragable. You're the kind of person who gives my viewpoint a bad name. Go away thanks.

Prelation means advancement, dumb cunt!Learned it in third grade. Don't get mad at me cause you too stupid to find out what the hell it means.

Synonyms: ADVANCEMENT 1, elevation, preference, preferment, promotion, upgrading.

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 03-18-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Prelation means advancement, dumb cunt!Learned it in third grade. Don't get mad at me cause you too stupid to find out what the hell it means.

Synonyms: ADVANCEMENT 1, elevation, preference, preferment, promotion, upgrading.

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 03-18-2004).]

I know what it means (and you didn't learn it in third grade but nice lying anyway), but you used it totally incorrectly:

religion doesn't interfere with the prelation of human thoughts; quite the opposite - people are inclined towards religion (as ArmedandAngry will surely concur), it's natural. It predates civilization.

quote:Originally posted by MackfromCanneryRow:



P.S. - in respone to armed and angery's post. about all the great things different christians did like civil rights reforms. first of all, all those bad things that needed to be changed were the RESULT of christianity. and second, considering about 99% of the country was christian when all this happened that you mentioned, chances are the few people bright enough to change things would probably be christians.

Slavery was the result of Christians? That's funny, because the Apostles were the first major figures in the West to even claim that slaves have rights. You see, you ignorant twit, social ideals do not just pop into peoples heads. They evolve gradually from previous ideas. Before anyone claims slaves should be freed, somebody has to claim they have rights. It's a process, you dolt.

You'll notice also that the prime movers behind social change often aren't just folks who offhandedly mention they're Christian, they're clergy. Hello? "Liberation Theology?" Latin America? Anybody?

IF IT WASN'T RELIGION, IT WOULD BE SOMETHING ELSE. THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT HAVE COMPASSION AND ARE PREPARED TO ACCEPT A MORAL CODE TO LIVE BY AND THERE'S THE OTHERS AND THIS WILL ALWAYS BE.

JUST GET EVERY MOTHER FUCKIN' BLOKE OR BIRD THAT WANTS TO KILL AND FIGHT AND PUT THEM ONTO ONE BIG ISLAND AND LEAVE THEM TO GET HIGH ON BLOODSHED AND GIVE SOME PEACE TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.

honestly, what is it about fighting with guns and bombs that makes people feel all grown up and powerful?