all of the christians out there say that we cant have gay marriage because it will interfere with the sanctity of their own marriage. How does it affect you and your wife if you live in florida if a gay couple gets married in california? Usually, then, the christians will say that being a child growing up with gay parents can harm the child and make him/her less social and less competent. According to studies this is entirely untrue. The kids grow up just fine and even most of the time are better adjusted to different circumstances. What if the couple doesnt even have kids? Tell me what you all think about this subject.

I'm a christian. I think Gays should have the right to get married. Protecting the "sanctity" of anything is not the government's job, at least in America.

I'd like to see your source about children of gay couples. Personally i think i would be pretty upset as i was getting older and realizing that i had 2 daddies and most kids had a mommy and a daddy. I suppose two loving parents of any sex is better than living in a foster home, but i'm still torn on that issue.

I do think that the line on what can marry what needs to be drawn at some point though. For instance, I should not be able to marry my dog. Not to equate homosexuality with beastiality, but allowing gays to marry is a similar change in the fundemental conception of what marriage is. If it was legal, many mormons would be practicing polygamy today, but the government doesn't allow that. I'm not going to say what is right and wrong, but i think a line should be drawn somewhere.

theBishop

[This message has been edited by theBishop (edited 03-15-2004).]

I don't understand the whole 'dogs marrying people, and pllygamy' argument. It doesn't make sense at all. How would this happen if they were to define marriage as the union bewteen two people? I guess anyone using this argument assumes they'll redefine it to 'whoever wants to jump in' or something.

As for a kid getting pissed as he learns hes only got two dads, thats stupid. If this kids loved, hes not going to start resenting his parents just because they're gay. He will have grown up in that enviroment his entire life, and I doubt he'll care about having a mother. Thats like saying kids growing up in single parent homes will grow up to hate their parent for not being married. Ive known a couple kids with gay parents and they never gave a shit.

Bishop,

It's people like you that cause the kind of stigma that surrounds gay marriages.

Ideally, it wouldnt matter if kids had two dads or two mums or a mum and a dad, because if parents take care of, and love thier children then it shouldnt matter.

And, another thing; at least the children of a gay couple would feel wanted, and wouldnt be treated like "accidents" or "mistakes"

---

Drulazyc

well, as far is it being "morally wrong", those people are going to do the same things unmarried as they are married. and anyway, it's just a goddamn piece of paper that says they're married. you could get a guy off the street or some canadian to marry you...it's not a big ceremonious thing it used to be. or better yet just go to vegas. anyway, the point is, we did the same thing to blacks...persecution...and now we look back on it and think, wow, that was dumb. 50 years from now it'll be the same thing. anyway, i don't see the big issue with gays anyway. personally i think it's probably all psychological...i mean they want to be gay so they tell themselves that they can't help it. it's a fad.

<A HREF="http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/gay2.jpg">http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/gay2.jpg" width="90" height="90 (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/gay2.jpg" width="90" height="90)</A>

to choda

Moron! http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

[This message has been edited by Nemisis (edited 04-02-2004).]

Well, I think gay couples should have a formal ceremony that unifies them and conveys the same legal rights that a marriage does.

However, I don't think marriage "Under God", should be allowed. Mainly because, even in the Bible, the sacrament is about the union of Man and Woman, not man and man or woman and woman.

As for the gay couples raising children, I'd have to agree with Drulazy. As long as you're raised well and loved, then it shouldn't matter who raised you.

Unfortuently, it does matter who raised you even if you are raised well and loved. Im currently doing gender indentity development stuff at the moment in sociology (lots of Freudian penis envy...) and whilst single parents and same-sex couples are more than able to raise children well, i think that a mother can still not be a father or a father a mother, regardless of how good a mother or father they might be. And i think that most single parents would agree (although i can't cite anything off the top of my head).

I'm not going to repost all of my anti-gay marrage beliefs in here, but there is a pretty large thread in politics on this subject if anyone is interested in more opinnions: http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum14/HTML/002396.html

Edit:1 spelling error

[This message has been edited by still laughing (edited 04-03-2004).]

My personal views on homosexuality as a socio-culturally induced defection from biological instinct influences my opinion on homosexual marriage by default, but since homosexuality in general is not the point being debate, I will try and separate them as best I can from the issue at hand.

I don't think there should be a financial or industrial benefit to being married as opposed to being legally united. I think they should offer the same kinds of legal benefits, the same tax reductions or whatever the fuck happens to a person's finances when they get married, and the same kinds of privileges. I also think the church is putting the wrong kind of emphasis on an issue like this. Between the rejection of homosexuality and the ban on divorce, it seems that their platform is bent on keeping happy couples apart and unhappy couples together. Instead, they should put more emphasis on making sure that two people should get married only when there's not a single doubt in their minds that it's the right decision to make.

In defense of the church, I also don't think that the liberalized society our civilization has degraded to has any justification in requesting that an ancient institution like the Catholic Church should change its policy because a specific group wants that institution's equally archaic traditions to accomodate their personal lifestyles. I don't really understand their insistence on getting married by the power of an institution that doesn't support said lifestyle.

The best decision I think that can be made is for them to change from Catholicism to Protestantism - they seem in general to plummet into narcoleptic fits at social issues over which Catholics would be handing proctologists the Jaws of Life to pry open their over-clenched ass cheeks. Two musicians in my mom's church's worship group are gay and legally united (by the pastor that preaches in that church, no less). Not to mention that, aside from the social issues, the traditions and values are pretty much exactly the same between the two sects.

Hopefully, I separated my personal perceptions from the social issue as well as I had planned.

SST

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

In defense of the church, I also don't think that the liberalized society our civilization has degraded to has any justification in requesting that an ancient institution like the Catholic Church should change its policy because a specific group wants that institution's equally archaic traditions to accomodate their personal lifestyles.

Are you talking about America? If so, Im a bit shocked. Since when has American society become overly liberal?

Also, if I might ask, why do liberal views degrad society? If anything they make it better in my opinion. It gives people the freedom they deserve, rather then more persecution and 'offenses'.

They'll whistle a different tune when they see the marriage penalty in their taxes!

free will.

Let gays marry. Who cares?

It seems a lot of western societies have this illusion that you are a failure if you are not married with children. Why would gays want to marry at all.

Marriage is meaningless, if you love someone, that's what counts. Not a piece of paper.

I'm sorry, people who want to preserve the "sacred institution of marriage". There's nothing sacred or inportant there to protect.

quote:Originally posted by Durell:

However, I don't think marriage "Under God", should be allowed. Mainly because, even in the Bible, the sacrament is about the union of Man and Woman, not man and man or woman and woman.

Why the hell should you legislate that?

Let the churches decide for themselves.

quote:Originally posted by Metal_Demon:



Marriage is meaningless, if you love someone, that's what counts. Not a piece of paper.

I'm sorry, people who want to preserve the "sacred institution of marriage". There's nothing sacred or inportant there to protect.

Are you fucking kidding me. Dumbshits like you are the reason that there is a like 75% divorce rate. Marriage IS sacred and important, but stupid shits like you dont care so you violate the sanctity of it.

As for gay marriage I see it like this.

1)Marriage as it is in the US was started by the church, under God, and between a man and a woman. As a christians, homosexuality is wrong and should gays shouldn't be allowed to be MARRIED. Marriage shouldn't have its sanctity violated anymore than it already is by dumbshits like the one I quoted.

2)Gays should be allowed to have civil unions and get all the tax breaks and BS that married couples get. Do deny them equal rights would be wrong by christianity as well. They are people who deserve the same rights and same free will as everyone else. After all Jesus didn't strike down the prostitute who was being stoned, he told the crowd that the next sinless person should a cast a stone. To deny someone equal rights is wrong.

That said, I hope you understand the difference between the rights that come with marriage and MARRIAGE. MARRIAGE has nothing to do with the rights ie tax breaks that come with it.

quote:Originally posted by bigtmoney:

Are you fucking kidding me. Dumbshits like you are the reason that there is a like 75% divorce rate. Marriage IS sacred and important, but stupid shits like you dont care so you violate the sanctity of it.

As for gay marriage I see it like this.

1)Marriage as it is in the US was started by the church, under God, and between a man and a woman. As a christians, homosexuality is wrong and should gays shouldn't be allowed to be MARRIED. Marriage shouldn't have its sanctity violated anymore than it already is by dumbshits like the one I quoted.

2)Gays should be allowed to have civil unions and get all the tax breaks and BS that married couples get. Do deny them equal rights would be wrong by christianity as well. They are people who deserve the same rights and same free will as everyone else. After all Jesus didn't strike down the prostitute who was being stoned, he told the crowd that the next sinless person should a cast a stone. To deny someone equal rights is wrong.

That said, I hope you understand the difference between the rights that come with marriage and MARRIAGE. MARRIAGE has nothing to do with the rights ie tax breaks that come with it.



Dumbshits like you are the reason that many civilized nations have not progressed as fast as they could have because they held onto folly like "God" and "Sacred unions".



I want you to understand something. We are but animals. We are scum, and nothing seperates us from the worm that crawls on the ground besides our versatility and intelligence, given to us through millions of years of evoloution.

Nothing we do is sacred, I'm sorry.

Nothing seperates us from worms but intelligence? So we can't tell right from wrong? Wait, there is no right or wrong? People are nothing but animals and we can't have sacred unions? There is no such thing as love because animals dont "love"? Have I missed anything from your retarded ass post yet?

quote:Originally posted by bigtmoney:

Nothing seperates us from worms but intelligence? So we can't tell right from wrong? Wait, there is no right or wrong? People are nothing but animals and we can't have sacred unions? There is no such thing as love because animals dont "love"? Have I missed anything from your retarded ass post yet?

Right and Wrong are very subjective, kiddo. What's right to you might be apalling to me, and vice versa.

Yes, we are nothing but animals. Look at our body structure and internal organs. I dunno about you, but I'm not aware of anything we have that other mammals do not, maybe you could enlighten me?

No, we can't have sacred unions, because nothing "sacred" even exists. Everything is what it's worth, marriage gives you special financial benefits, love is what counts. Not marriage, love. If you think otherwise, your just an idiot.

Animals love. My dog loves me. There's an example. He wags his tail when I come home, and yips happily. Animals can love too. We love.

You seem to think we are somehow special. We are not, except in terms of intelligence and other minor changes.

You're dumber than I thought. You really think your dog is capable of loving you? LOL that's some funny shit. So you think that your dog actually has "A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness" I'm sorry but that's fucking funny. Oh, and as for what makes us different. Would you kill someone for food? Would you then eat him? Do you really think any animal is capable of this type of thinking? But oh wait, our intelligence is just some little dumbshit quality from evolution. Therefore people shouldn't be held to higher standards than say a lion? LOL you're fucking retarded.



[This message has been edited by bigtmoney (edited 04-07-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by bigtmoney:

You're dumber than I thought. You really think your dog is capable of loving you? LOL that's some funny shit. So you think that your dog actually has "A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness" I'm sorry but that's fucking funny. Oh, and as for what makes us different. Would you kill someone for food? Would you then eat him? Do you really think any animal is capable of this? But oh wait, our intelligence is just some little dumbshit quality from evolution. Therefore people shouldn't be held to higher standards than say a lion? LOL you're fucking retarded.



Well, to me love is pretty superficial, and easily disposible if necessary, and yeah, my dog loves me in the sense of "I feed him and keep him alive" gratefulness. Love is nothing ultra-special dude. It is a superficial feeling that can suddenly be gone, suddenly be back...it is unreliable.

If it came down to it, yes, I would kill someeone and eat them. Such as after a major war, if supplies were gone. I am not afraid to survive, the human animal has done what it takes for thousands of years.

Why do you think animals kill you fucking dumbass? For fun? They do it to survive. They can't go down to the grocery store and buy food like we can, idiot.

And in the case of us not killing eachotehr for food, a bear for example won't kill another bear until all of the other animals/plants are used up. Same with us. NOTHING seperates us.

No, humans are not greater than lions, buddy. We do the same thing they do, just in a more intelligent, clean manner for the most part.

And, if it was not for our intelligence, we would not be at the top of the food chain. Not that we are anyway. Our weapons are the only things that keep us at the top.

For example, an unarmed human in the jungle gets attacked by a tiger. Who wins?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif) we are so superior.

Wow! I'm done talking to you. Your a fucking jackass. You really would kill and eat a person? You're studpid and FUCKED UP! and btw, yes, many animals kill other animals for fun. My cat doesn't need to kill a mouse or bird to survive, but it does because its instincts tell it to. For some reason, I, as the animal I am have similar instincts, but guess what, I have fucking morals that tell me not to commit murder. But wait, morals are just an extension of are intelligence, which is just some stupid trait from evolution. You're so fucking dumb, I can't even express how fucking stupid you are. btw, you completely made up that shit about a bear not killing a bear. You're so fucking stupid you consider yourself smart enough that no one will see through your obviously made up BS.

quote:Originally posted by bigtmoney:

Wow! I'm done talking to you. Your a fucking jackass. You really would kill and eat a person? You're studpid and FUCKED UP! and btw, yes, many animals kill other animals for fun. My cat doesn't need to kill a mouse or bird to survive, but it does because its instincts tell it to. For some reason, I, as the animal I am have similar instincts, but guess what, I have fucking morals that tell me not to commit murder. But wait, morals are just an extension of are intelligence, which is just some stupid trait from evolution. You're so fucking dumb, I can't even express how fucking stupid you are. btw, you completely made up that shit about a bear not killing a bear. You're so fucking stupid you consider yourself smart enough that no one will see through your obviously made up BS.

Boys and girls, I want you to all gaze on him, and look at what happens when religion goes wrong.

Judging from what you ahve said, you ahve barely read anything I've posted, much less understood it.

What did I miss? And what about my religion has gone wrong?

quote:Originally posted by bigtmoney:

What did I miss? And what about my religion has gone wrong?

Buddy, I don't want to fight. All I'm saying is, from a scientific perspective, we are animals, and really, how can anything we do be sacred? Maybe in our own minds, but thats as deep as it goes. I apologize for contradicting your beliefs like this, but this is what I believe. Maybe we can just respect what each of us has to say?

And about the bear thing. A bear will not kill anotehr bear for food, unless it is in extreme conditions. Same with humans.

Yes, there are several other reasons a bear will kill a bear, just like there are several other reasons a human will kill a human, but you asked me a question, and I never focused on those.

quote:Originally posted by bigtmoney:

My cat doesn't need to kill a mouse or bird to survive, but it does because its instincts tell it to. For some reason, I, as the animal I am have similar instincts, but guess what, I have fucking morals that tell me not to commit murder.

If I understand correctly, you're saying that when a cat eats a mouse or a bird it's committing murder.

Do you eat meat?

No, as that post clearly said, my cat doesn't need to kill the mouse for food, it does it because it has animal instincts that tell it too. People have those same instincts that tell us to kill but guess what we have morals. As was the point of my argument, animals ie cats, dogs, whatever dont have morals or anything besides survival motivating their decisions. Thats a pretty friggin big difference if you ask me.

Why should someone care if gay ppl get married. I think they have some personal issues they need worked out. It's funny how Christians would prefer everyone to be Christian but won't allow the gays to partake in a ceromony of their religion.

Personnaly, if I were gay I wouldn't want to be married. It's apart of a religion that condemns those who are gay to hell.

I believe that they should give gays a ceromony similar to getting married, so that they have the same benefits. But other than that, whoever is gay and wants to get married for the specific reason of just being married. Should have the shit beaten out of them.

quote:Originally posted by bigtmoney:

No, as that post clearly said, my cat doesn't need to kill the mouse for food, it does it because it has animal instincts that tell it too. People have those same instincts that tell us to kill but guess what we have morals. As was the point of my argument, animals ie cats, dogs, whatever dont have morals or anything besides survival motivating their decisions. Thats a pretty friggin big difference if you ask me.



Most people with half a brain will keep their own best interests first in mind when making decisions though. That's sort of the same thing.



[This message has been edited by Metal_Demon (edited 04-08-2004).]

Morals are a whole different thing than animal instincts. In an earlier post you even admitted you have morals. You said something to the effect of "what i consider right may be different than what you do" That statement admits that you have something governing your actions ie morals. Animals completely lack this. That's a huge difference if you ask me. But maybe that's just a small side effect of my cursedly high animal intelligence.

quote:Originally posted by bigtmoney:

Morals are a whole different thing than animal instincts. In an earlier post you even admitted you have morals. You said something to the effect of "what i consider right may be different than what you do" That statement admits that you have something governing your actions ie morals. Animals completely lack this. That's a huge difference if you ask me. But maybe that's just a small side effect of my cursedly high animal intelligence.

Are morals logical? I think so, therefore they are a product of our logic, of our reasoning skills, or, put more simply, our intelligence. We have the memory to know that when you kill someone, you feel bad inside, we keep this with us so well that we teach our societies this same concept. Same with cheating on a loved one, we know it hurts them, makes us feel guilty, and ends up hurting us. That's a product of our feelings, the same ones animals have. Humans are most definately animals, and a human will eat another human if the conditions demand it. I recall a story of a colombian(I think) rugby team that crashed their plane in the andes and resorted to cannabalism. We are animals, and will do what we need to survive, or intelligence has just made it much easier to do so.

quote:Originally posted by bigtmoney:

Morals are a whole different thing than animal instincts. In an earlier post you even admitted you have morals. You said something to the effect of "what i consider right may be different than what you do" That statement admits that you have something governing your actions ie morals. Animals completely lack this. That's a huge difference if you ask me. But maybe that's just a small side effect of my cursedly high animal intelligence.

Yes, I have a set of morals, but I will keep my best intrests in mind, because giving myself self gain at the possible expense of others does not go against my morals at all.

Actually everything we do is governed by our morals.

So yeah, it's a byproduct of intelligence. Look at it this way...I don't think a lot of other animals are even self aware, in the sense of how they play into the bigger picture. We are, and we govern our actions accordingly. Morals and the like all have to do with an increased intellectual capacity as opposed of other animals, where we can make decisions looking at the bigger picture instead of our own survival.

But, with that said, the best interest of any human is usually their own survival, and I don't think you can argue that.

Would you walk through Downtown eastside Vancouver after dark? No, of course not. Because you don't want to get killed or robbed, right. See, in that decision, you keep your own survival and self interest first.

Would you step into moving traffic?

Same thing.

Most decisions we make on a daily basis involve ensuring our own survival, just like any other animal.

quote:Originally posted by praisejahmoreherb:

Are morals logical? I think so, therefore they are a product of our logic, of our reasoning skills, or, put more simply, our intelligence. We have the memory to know that when you kill someone, you feel bad inside, we keep this with us so well that we teach our societies this same concept. Same with cheating on a loved one, we know it hurts them, makes us feel guilty, and ends up hurting us. That's a product of our feelings, the same ones animals have. Humans are most definately animals, and a human will eat another human if the conditions demand it. I recall a story of a colombian(I think) rugby team that crashed their plane in the andes and resorted to cannabalism. We are animals, and will do what we need to survive, or intelligence has just made it much easier to do so.

You guys are incredible! Why then doesn't a lion, tiger, bear (oh my) feel bad about killing another lion, tiger, or bear? The fact that a loved one feels HURT if you cheat on them, and you then feel GUILTY should show you that we are different from any other creation on earth! How many animals get hurt by infidelity, or feel guilty? Sure a broken dog may not do something for fear of being punished, but as from your own ommission, people feel guilt, hurt, and a number of other emotions. Morals aren't always logical. I guarantee that many people wouldn't consider an "anti-gay" marriage advocate to be very logical in a society of gays. Or for that matter a gay person in the middle of a conservative state in america. If someone truly has morals, there are many instances where standing by them isn't "logical".

quote:Originally posted by Metal_Demon:

Yes, I have a set of morals, but I will keep my best intrests in mind, because giving myself self gain at the possible expense of others does not go against my morals at all.

Actually everything we do is governed by our morals.

So yeah, it's a byproduct of intelligence. Look at it this way...I don't think a lot of other animals are even self aware, in the sense of how they play into the bigger picture. We are, and we govern our actions accordingly. Morals and the like all have to do with an increased intellectual capacity as opposed of other animals, where we can make decisions looking at the bigger picture instead of our own survival.

But, with that said, the best interest of any human is usually their own survival, and I don't think you can argue that.

Would you walk through Downtown eastside Vancouver after dark? No, of course not. Because you don't want to get killed or robbed, right. See, in that decision, you keep your own survival and self interest first.

Would you step into moving traffic?

Same thing.

Most decisions we make on a daily basis involve ensuring our own survival, just like any other animal.

I give up. I can't argue with someone who's morals are as completely weak as your own. I honestly wish I could have your brain and then I wouldn't feel bad for feeling like this "I will keep my best intrests in mind, because giving myself self gain at the possible expense of others does not go against my morals at all." That, to me, is truly pathetic. Oh, and by the way, you don't have morals. Morals are "Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character" Your "morals" change when it benefits you for them to. Therefore, nothing is governing your actions but how you feel at the time. I, although I'm sure you'll say that the "animal" that you consider me to be can't, have a set of "rules" governing my decisions that don't always go for what is best for my survival or position on earth. These are what I consider my core beliefs, which is something you seem to lack.

quote:Originally posted by bigtmoney:

I give up. I can't argue with someone who's morals are as completely weak as your own. I honestly wish I could have your brain and then I wouldn't feel bad for feeling like this "I will keep my best intrests in mind, because giving myself self gain at the possible expense of others does not go against my morals at all." That, to me, is truly pathetic. Oh, and by the way, you don't have morals. Morals are "Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character" Your "morals" change when it benefits you for them to. Therefore, nothing is governing your actions but how you feel at the time. I, although I'm sure you'll say that the "animal" that you consider me to be can't, have a set of "rules" governing my decisions that don't always go for what is best for my survival or position on earth. These are what I consider my core beliefs, which is something you seem to lack.



My morals don't change when it suits me best. I won't kill, steal, or rape, even if it gives me benefits. Then again, in all truth, the only thing keeping me and many other people from doing these things is the law.

Still haven't caught onto the whole 'intelligence creates morals' concept have we? Perhaps because you lack the former. A human feels guilty after cheating on a loved one because he has the intellectual capacity to connect on a deeper level with his spouse. Animals mate to pass on their genes, same as humans, but lack the intelligence to get to know their partner other than their scent of glowing abdomen. A lion doesn't feel bad about killing another lion(which is rare) because it is necessary. A human would feel guilty because it has been pounded in his head from day one that killing and eating a human is wrong. The world isn't as complicated as you believe, it is just so daunting that it seems that way. Everything has a logical explanation, and we humans can discover that, unlike animals. Humans survive from their intellect, not their strength, not their camoflaouge, I think its a fairly good way to survive.

quote:Originally posted by Metal_Demon:



My morals don't change when it suits me best. I won't kill, steal, or rape, even if it gives me benefits. Then again, in all truth, the only thing keeping me and many other people from doing these things is the law.

Once again, all I can say is pathetic. The saddest thing to me is I know your telling the truth.

quote:Originally posted by praisejahmoreherb:

Still haven't caught onto the whole 'intelligence creates morals' concept have we? Perhaps because you lack the former.

I guess not, and I guess so. I'm done with this.

quote:Originally posted by bigtmoney:

Why then doesn't a lion, tiger, bear (oh my) feel bad about killing another lion, tiger, or bear?

Animals generally don't kill their own kind unless they're forced to.

quote:The fact that a loved one feels HURT if you cheat on them, and you then feel GUILTY should show you that we are different from any other creation on earth! How many animals get hurt by infidelity, or feel guilty?

Lots of animals (geese, for example) mate for life - if a partner dies, they won't find a new one.

As a side note, I think the whole "infidelity" thing is overblown. You don't own your significant other and they don't own you; it doesn't do you any harm if your wife cheats on you (disease and such is a completely separate issue), so why should you feel hurt?

quote:Originally posted by Metal_Demon:

Then again, in all truth, the only thing keeping me and many other people from doing these things is the law.

I was with you on this one until you said this.

Don't you have any empathy?

you two argues back and forth continually getting farther and farther off topic. What we need to concentrate on is that gay marriage should be allowed. They do not choose to be gay, that is why they have the right to love and be married just like any other human being. I know that christians do not want them to get married because they are against their holy book but people break the rules all the time and i dont think that some god should be able to tell us who we can and cannot marry. God is just a passed down rumor that has been milked for all it is worth and i dont believe that it is necessary for humans to continue to follow his code that he never has actually spoken to any of us. Gay marriage is okay and it shouldnt be treated as something wrong it should just be respected.

Freud classed all this as Nature Vs Culture. Apparently, if we weren't all cultured from day one, we would run around shagging everything in sight. It is culture, a by-product of intelligence, which renders us different to all other animals.

I think a lot of Christians justify their stance on gay marriage because they are convinced that Gays are not born that way, that being gay is something these people do, the way murder is something people do, or adultury is something people do.

I'm willing to say that i think it's most likely that Gay people are born with fundementally different feelings towards men and women, but if that is not the case, and Gay people are choosing to have sex with the same gender, then i also think they should not be allowed to get married.

I agree with what you say up to a point bishop. Personally, I believe that people choose to be gay. There have been many studies out to try and find a difference in genes or other traits that make a person gay from birth, and all have been unsuccessful (don't try to say their have been unless you can provide a link). If their was one, it would be the lead in to every story about gay marriage. Who knows, their could be some difference that gays have, but I doubt it will ever be found. That said, as I and a few other people have posted, why would gays even want to get married? Marriage in america was started by the church and for the church, and the church doesn't agree with what gays do, in fact, the bible condemns sinners (which being gay it says is) to hell. Why would you even want to take part in a ceremony created by this instuition? I believe that gays should be given civil unions and gain all the rights of married couples, but should not be allowed to violate the sancity of marriage anymore than it has been by people who don't see marriage as anymore than a paper (we already had the argument about marriage and in fact nothing humans do is sacred, so lets not do it again). Marriage was created by God, for the church, as a way for a MAN and a WOMAN to be joined in holy matrimony (sp?).

You know, you might actually hold an ounce of validity in your arguments if in reality; all heterosexual couples who get married are religious, church going, God fearing citizens. But they're not.

The brain is the most complicated and powerful machine ever created, and that's where the cause lies. Noticable differences aren't going to be found on your toes or hair or eyes, it is most likely deep in your brain's wiring where the cause is. Humans are centuries away from understanding the brain, so I doubt we're going to have a study confirming biological differences any time soon. Waiting for science to prove it is just stalling, this is a social issue.

bigtmoney, I'm not sure you agree with me at all, and I'm fairly sure I don't agree with you at all.

First of all, to say that Gays don't have a place in Christianity goes against everything i've come to believe about Jesus. I'm sure you'd agree that prostitutes are sinners according to the bible, but Jesus spent time with prostitutes and they were able to be saved. Being a "prostitute" isn't a sin, fornication is a sin. Likewise being "gay" isn't a sin, having sex with the same sex is a sin. Homosexuals can be redeemed just like everyone else can be, we are all sinners. A homosexual's sin is equal to your sin in God's eyes. For you to say "they shouldn't want to be saved because we obviously don't want them to be saved" is a terrible thing to say. We as christians should do everything we can to show that we love them. Unfortunatly, homosexual sodomy is a sin, and that's just how it is according to the bible, but that's their business, it's our job to love them regardless.

Second, Marriage was not "created by God". Non-Christian cultures have marriage having never read the bible. I agree that marriage has a spiritual element to it, but it also has legal elements to it, and you simply cannot deny rights to a group of people (at least in america).

Maybe the legal aspects of marriage should be removed completly. I think it would be better if ALL couples under the law got a "civil union", and churches can "marry" whomever their particular religion allows. That way everyone is getting equal rights under the law, and "The Seperation Between Church And State (TM)" is preserved.

That being said, I do think this is going to lead to a lot of other fundemental shifts in what marriage is. For instance, if two men can get married why can't a man marry 3 women? I'd prefer we didn't have these questions, but the fact is there are polygamists in this country and they should get equal rights too. It's gonna be rediculous.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

bigtmoney, I'm not sure you agree with me at all, and I'm fairly sure I don't agree with you at all.

First of all, to say that Gays don't have a place in Christianity goes against everything i've come to believe about Jesus. I'm sure you'd agree that prostitutes are sinners according to the bible, but Jesus spent time with prostitutes and they were able to be saved. Being a "prostitute" isn't a sin, fornication is a sin. Likewise being "gay" isn't a sin, having sex with the same sex is a sin.I never once said that gays don't belong in christianity. I asked the questions why gays would want to be part of a ceremony created by the church (an organization that doesn't agree with their beliefs. btw, saying that being a prostitute isn't a sin, but fornication is, makes no sense. Look up what a prostitute is. Being gay ie having relations with the same sex is a sin. And oh yeah, about the whole prostitute thing, when did I say anything close to "do not hang around gays and try to get them saved"? Did you read my post? quote: Homosexuals can be redeemed just like everyone else can be, we are all sinners. A homosexual's sin is equal to your sin in God's eyes. For you to say "they shouldn't want to be saved because we obviously don't want them to be saved" is a terrible thing to say. We as christians should do everything we can to show that we love them. Again, please tell me where I say anything even remotely close to they shouldn't want to be saved because we obviously don't want them to be saved. The whole pretense of this thread is about gay marriage. Therefore, at the time of a gay person getting married they obviously don't want to be saved. I never say anything even close to "i don't want homosexuals to be saved." quote:Unfortunatly, homosexual sodomy is a sin, and that's just how it is according to the bible, but that's their business, it's our job to love them regardless.

Yet again I have to ask, did you read my post? Please point to anytime that I said being gay should be "banned", that gays should prosecuted, or anything else. I said that gays shouldn't be allowed to get married and violate the sanctity of holy marriage.

quote:Second, Marriage was not "created by God". Non-Christian cultures have marriage having never read the bible. I agree that marriage has a spiritual element to it, but it also has legal elements to it, and you simply cannot deny rights to a group of people (at least in america).

Have you read the bible or taken history? Marriage as it exists in America is taken directly from the bible and is a holy ceremony. As of right now, I can't remember who it was that was married first in the bible, but I think it was Adam and Eve. As to other "marriages" these aren't the same thing as what being married in america is. In America, marriage is under god. Therefore, a gay person, at least to me, wouldn't even want to get married seeing as how christians don't believe in that lifestyle.

quote:

Maybe the legal aspects of marriage should be removed completly. I think it would be better if ALL couples under the law got a "civil union", and churches can "marry" whomever their particular religion allows. That way everyone is getting equal rights under the law, and "The Seperation Between Church And State (TM)" is preserved.

I dont understand this part, sorry.

quote:

That being said, I do think this is going to lead to a lot of other fundemental shifts in what marriage is. For instance, if two men can get married why can't a man marry 3 women? I'd prefer we didn't have these questions, but the fact is there are polygamists in this country and they should get equal rights too. It's gonna be rediculous.

When did christians believe that they couldn't take a stand against anything? Did jesus embrace the prostitute and say continue your sinful ways. No, he told her that her sins were forgiven and to go in peace. Today, christians seem to think that going against something, whether they believe it is evil or not, is wrong. To allow gays to be married is ludicrous. This would be no different than jesus saying, "ok, you like being a prostitute, so instead of trying to get you to turn from your evil ways, I will make prostitution easier and more acceptable". Un-FUCKING-believable. And yet you seem so blind to this.

Edit: You're right. We're nothing alike.



[This message has been edited by bigtmoney (edited 04-09-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by The Crusader:

You know, you might actually hold an ounce of validity in your arguments if in reality; all heterosexual couples who get married are religious, church going, God fearing citizens. But they're not.

quote:I believe that gays should be given civil unions and gain all the rights of married couples, but should not be allowed to violate the sancity of marriage anymore than it has been by people who don't see marriage as anymore than a paper

WOW!!! You can definitely read!!!

As far as i'm concerned, if 2 gay guys want to get married, it is no business of a straight person such as me, or anyone for that matter. Even if they aren't born gay (i think they are)fact is they turn out gay, and if they love someone they should have as much of a right to marry as anyone else. I think this because i imagine myself in their shoes, if i loved someone and the government said i couldn't marry them, i'd want the fucking laws changed.

And to whoever said that we were different to animals because cat kill for fun and we don't, i often recieve venison from a couple of buddies of mine who enjoy hunting. They don't need the meat, and end up giving most of it away, they hunt because it's fun, in a similar way to your cat.

They are simply trying to make queers seem normal. Will never happen, though

They aren't rectally piercing you? So why are you worrying?

quote:Originally posted by bigtmoney:

Morals are a whole different thing than animal instincts. In an earlier post you even admitted you have morals. You said something to the effect of "what i consider right may be different than what you do" That statement admits that you have something governing your actions ie morals. Animals completely lack this. That's a huge difference if you ask me. But maybe that's just a small side effect of my cursedly high animal intelligence.

I doubt animals completely lack morals. If that was the case an animal would give birth and eat the baby as soon as it got hungry. If it lacked any sort of morals it would see no reason not to eat the baby, it would see it simply as food. Im not going to argue that animals are highly moral, however Im sure they have a certain level of morals. Though not particularly high. But then again, what moral issues are animals faced with? Unlike humans they are not faced with all kinds of choices and oprotunities. We as humans need morals because we have so much freedom, and our knowledge and level of thinking allows for so much. We're a form of intelligent life, the only one on this earth. 99% of what most people would consider immoral an animal has no option to do.

Its really silly to even try and put animals and morals together. Animals spend their lives doing very few things. Basically, they spend time looking for food when they or their offspring need it, looking for mates, and defending themselves from other animals who see them as food. There really isn't much for an animal to work with that could make it either moral or immoral, however they no doubt have a certain understanding of what is necessary to keep them and their species alive.

You mentioned that your cat doesn't need to kill a bird or a mouse but it does so on instinct. You're right, but what do you think that instict is telling the cat? When a cat sees a mouse and it kills it, it is killing it because it sees the mouse as a possible threat. A lot of animals are very territorial, and they may often see the space they currently occupy as their space if they're brought up alone. So in turn, when your cat sees a mouse in your/its home, it instictually believes the mouse is trying to invade its hoome and kills the mouse to protect its home and everyone in it. Sure, we're smarter then that and know the mouse posses little to no threat to anyone, yet a cat doesn't have that knowledge. So it really can't be seen as an immoral act. It'd be like if soemone broke into your house and put a gun to your face and you ended up killing them only to find out the gun wasn't loaded. Thats not immoral. Sure, the intruder truly possed no threat, but as far as you knew he was putting your life and your home at risk, so you did what was necessary to protect yourself. A cat doesn't understand what a mouse is or that its relatively harmless, it sees it as another animal that poses a certain threat to him and his home.

Also, take two cats that've been brought up alone and put them together. They will fight [unless they happen to be of opposite sex and in heat at the time]. Their whole lives they lived alone, so when another animal comes in its seen as an enemy. HOwever if a cat is brought up with another cat, you can bring in all the cats you want and they probably won't fight [aside from fighting over food or soemthing. the point is they wont fight to protect themselves] because they now know other cats are not dangerous.

The point IM trying to make is that animal aren't moral because morals don't apply to them. They simply act on survival instincts. An animal won't go out looking for another animal thinking 'Im pissed off and I just need to kill something!'. If an animal kills something its because it either needed food or felt threatened.

And as for humans being bound by morals an not running around killing things, ever heard of hunting? I won't even bring up murderers because they're obviously immoral if they killed somebody in cold blood or simply to benefit themselves. But people go out and kill animals all the time. They don't need to food, its just fun for them. Immoral if you ask me.

quote:Originally posted by bigtmoney:

saying that being a prostitute isn't a sin, but fornication is, makes no sense. Look up what a prostitute is. Being gay ie having relations with the same sex is a sin.

The point he was trying to make was that its not being a prostitute thats a sin, the sin is fornication. God will not punish soemone for being a prostitute, but rather for fornicating. Yes being a prostitute obviously involves fornication, so a prostitute is going to be a sinner, but their sin isn't prostitution.

And as for 'Being gay ie having relations with the same sex is a sin' thats not fully true. Being gay does not mean 'having relations with the same sex' but rather being attracted to the same sex. A gay man can go his entire life never having sex with another man, but he will still be gay and will be guilty of no sins as a result of him being gay. There are plenty of people who for whatever reasons [religion being one] have sexual feelings for the same sex but never persue it. There are plenty of men out there right now who are attracted to men, desire men, and have no attraction to women yet will spend their entire lives persuing women because they are not comfortable with homosexual activity. These people will never participate in homosexual acts, but essentially they are homosexuals. They are attracted to the people of the same sex, however God will never punish them for it. As far as I know it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that you will be punished for your attraction, aside from lust but thats not a gay issue.

quote:

gay ( P ) Pronunciation Key (g)

adj. gay·er, gay·est

Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.

Showing or characterized by cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement; merry.

Bright or lively, especially in color: a gay, sunny room.

Given to social pleasures.

Dissolute; licentious.

n.

A person whose sexual orientation is to persons of the same sex.

A man whose sexual orientation is to men: an alliance of gays and lesbians.