There is a strong possibility that all religion as we know it is artificial - created by ancient rulers as a device for mind control. Religion is based on fear- fear of the unknown, fear of death. Maintaining a constant state of fear is a good way to suppress the free-thinkers and the intellectuals, and in turn suppressing understanding and truth. Is religion merely a veil, cleverly created to keep people in the dark?

Most organized religions claim to have the ultimate truth spelled out for you, yet they won't tolerate any scrutiny. Shouldn't that be enough to discredit religion? If the religious are expected to follow blindly and never ask questions, what does that suggest? If all religion were to disappear tomorrow, everyone would be searching for understanding and absolute truth rather than holding on to blind faith. Has the real truth been hidden behind religion for so many thousands of years?

quote:Originally posted by JMcSmoky:

There is a strong possibility that all religion as we know it is artificial - created by ancient rulers as a device for mind control. Religion is based on fear- fear of the unknown, fear of death. Maintaining a constant state of fear is a good way to suppress the free-thinkers and the intellectuals, and in turn suppressing understanding and truth. Is religion merely a veil, cleverly created to keep people in the dark?

Most organized religions claim to have the ultimate truth spelled out for you, yet they won't tolerate any scrutiny. Shouldn't that be enough to discredit religion? If the religious are expected to follow blindly and never ask questions, what does that suggest? If all religion were to disappear tomorrow, everyone would be searching for understanding and absolute truth rather than holding on to blind faith. Has the real truth been hidden behind religion for so many thousands of years?

Dude I totally agree with you. I've been trying to stress that very idea to people but they're just intent on beliving that every thing in the bible happened, and happened exactly as it was written.

Proof of that is that in the times when Kings were powerful the churches would tell ppl that they had to pay fees to get into heaven, and to be cleansed,ect.

They would even have women commit suicide because they told them they were impure when they had periods. And that they had periods cause God hated them. And they would have to do some stupid thing the Fathers told them to do and pay a fee to get saved.

Even more historically recent proof is that they used the bible in the Industrial Revolution to control workers. They would tell them that God would hate them and they wouldn't go to heaven if they didn't work.

It's all a deceitful mind control mechanism.

quote:Originally posted by JMcSmoky:

There is a strong possibility that all religion as we know it is artificial - created by ancient rulers as a device for mind control. Religion is based on fear- fear of the unknown, fear of death. Maintaining a constant state of fear is a good way to suppress the free-thinkers and the intellectuals, and in turn suppressing understanding and truth. Is religion merely a veil, cleverly created to keep people in the dark?

No, probably not.

All the evidence shows that religion predates organized civilization, and hence predates organized power structures, as we understand the term. There are certainly examples of religion being used as a control device (hinduism) and even more examples of people using religion to their benefit (one of the Pope Leos - forget which one - is on the record saying that "this myth of Christ" has served him well), but there's no reason to believe this was the purpose of religion. More likely, people were grasping for some sense of control over their own lives.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

All the evidence shows that religion predates organized civilization, and hence predates organized power structures, as we understand the term. ...but there's no reason to believe this was the purpose of religion. More likely, people were grasping for some sense of control over their own lives.

I'm referring to organized religion (holy books, doctrines and such), not primitive groveling.

Why would people construct societies based on irrational customs and rituals, and then enforce compliance with those rituals other than to have control over the populace?

Because they honestly believe it to be true?

You're looking at the people who run the religion, not the religion itself.

All religions are true. The fact that you believe in it makes it reality.

I'm looking at the origin of organized religion. Why was organized religion started?

quote:Originally posted by JMcSmoky:

There is a strong possibility that all religion as we know it is artificial - created by ancient rulers as a device for mind control. Religion is based on fear- fear of the unknown, fear of death. Maintaining a constant state of fear is a good way to suppress the free-thinkers and the intellectuals...

No shit Einstein...... what a novel idea. But wait, they've been teaching that possibility in History classes for years.

Ofcourse that's what a lot of the organized religions were - they didnt have mass media and education so still need to control/influence the common populace.

Although not a communist at all myself, it was Karl Marx that said "religion is the opium of the masses".

Look at how religion has tailed off in importance in advanced countries (well except the US but thats an anomally).



[This message has been edited by BongTech101 (edited 03-20-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by JMcSmoky:

I'm looking at the origin of organized religion. Why was organized religion started?

Kid, nobody "started" religion. Like every other concept on the planet, it evolved from earlier concepts. People will gladly act and believe in an irrational manner if it explains something or creates a feeling of control or purpose in their lives. It's not a big conspiracy, and if you think it is, provide some actual evidence.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Kid, nobody "started" religion. Like every other concept on the planet, it evolved from earlier concepts. People will gladly act and believe in an irrational manner if it explains something or creates a feeling of control or purpose in their lives. It's not a big conspiracy, and if you think it is, provide some actual evidence.

I dont think this post started with the assertion that religion necessarily was "started" purely as means to control... we can all guess about the desire for early humanity to have a belief in life beyond, and help explain away "scary" natural events.

I believe the point is more that at some point it was recognized as a potential means to assist in control and some people were able to exploit this factor.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Kid, nobody "started" religion. Like every other concept on the planet, it evolved from earlier concepts.

true

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

People will gladly act and believe in an irrational manner if it explains something or creates a feeling of control or purpose in their lives.

yes, I agree that religion started as grasping at straw.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

It's not a big conspiracy, and if you think it is, provide some actual evidence.

I don't have any evidence for either side. There's no evidence that it's a big conspiracy, and there's no evidence it's not a big conspiracy. That's not my point at all.

At some point in history, for the first time ever a certain group of writings was proclaimed to be the true word of god. I'm not a history professor, that's why I'm looking for some input here. How was the first doctrine presented, and was it merely a means of control? Also, has organized religion hindered true enlightenment over the years?

Organized religion certainly hasn't impeded enlightenment any more than "personal spirituality." It's all unfounded poppycock.

if the bible's events actually happened, then why haven't scientists found any fossilized evidence to prove it? and why does the bible as well as its followers tend to contradict themselves constantly? a christian once told me:

"love and respect everyone equally, no matter what their race, background, or religion"

yet then they make a complete hypocrit out of themselves by saying:

"all people who follow other religions are going to hell and should be downcast by christians"

i think religions are human's pitiful excuse for what really happened and how the earth was really formed(which, i believe, it was formed through evolution and if you don't believe in evolution, then you must be quite the retard, or you just haven't paid attention in biology class enough...)

evolution is occurring everywhere even as we speak. evolution of nature, evolution of ideas, evolution of technology... the world evolves...

the earth formed from the big bang (which i dunno how the fuck that happened, but some big "God" dude didn't do it, that's for sure... and by the way... if god was real, where the fuck is he hanging out at? surely not up in the clouds with all the acid rain) and over time all of the matter in space formed the planets and they became somewhat circular due to gravitational force from the sun and as the planets spread out, they formed their own unique climates ... this caused the formation of bacteria and unicellular organisms in the atmosphere which over time evolved as the planets moved further away from the sun into multicellular organisms in unison with the varying environments and ultimately adapted to their enviornments, giving them their own unique genetic makeup thus came small aquatic creatures that over time moved to the land and as Pangea broke apart they developed different characteristics and evolved into primative animals then to more complex and diverse species and thus came humans... god? i think not

_. http://www.totse.com/bbs/redface.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/redface.gif)ut:._

^^Please don't turn this into a "bible vs. evolution" topic.

Excluding the whole creation vs. evolution argument (tangent- short term creationism is only a relatively recent interpretation), this will sound like a dogmatic and unfounded assertion but: archeaology, to the best my knowledge, is yet to turn up anything which contradicts the biblical accounts of places, times and occurances. In fact the more finds archaeology makes, the more it confirms the historicity of the accounts.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

Excluding the whole creation vs. evolution argument (tangent- short term creationism is only a relatively recent interpretation), this will sound like a dogmatic and unfounded assertion but: archeaology, to the best my knowledge, is yet to turn up anything which contradicts the biblical accounts of places, times and occurances. In fact the more finds archaeology makes, the more it confirms the historicity of the accounts.

Please. Archeological support for the bible consists of finding a boat. On the bottom of a sea. That can be dated to within a century of a supposed Biblical event. And then suggesting that maybe this is the boat from said event. All archeological evidence in support of the bible I've seen is laughable.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

All religions are true. The fact that you believe in it makes it reality.

Goddamn, I can't believe nobody has called you on this yet. This forum has been falling apart in my absence!

I believe I have billions of dollars. Unfortunately, the bank won't honour it.

WTF!?!?!?

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

archeaology, to the best my knowledge, is yet to turn up anything which contradicts the biblical accounts of places, times and occurances.

It hasn't turned up contradictions, perhaps (what would a contradiction look like? proof that the Israelites lived in Australia rather than the Middle East?), but the lack of evidence for claims it makes speaks volumes.

Why haven't we found evidence of several million people living as slaves in Egypt or wandering the desert for 40 years?

quote:In fact the more finds archaeology makes, the more it confirms the historicity of the accounts.

HAHAHA, please stop with the wit, if I laugh too much my abdomen hurts.

Apart from that, please back up your assertations.

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

This forum has been falling apart in my absence!

Haha, don't start thinking it's anything to do with you.

Althou I agree, there are tonnes of crap topics at the mo.

Religion is a crock of shit, that's why I come here, to tell you people to look for your own answers. All religious holy texts were written by men, granted men are a manifestation of the creator, but still, editing has a wonderful way of shifting perspective, watch the simpsons episode when they're on a reality show, you'll see what I mean.

Ultimate truth is the most important thing that exists for you personally, so why are you going to take someone else's word for it if they don't even know you? Because you were taught to. It also doesn't help that these people who teach you these things have a vested interest in the way you think.

Get your heads out your ass and look around you. Spirituality in the fashion sense of charging $50 for cherokee hair tampons cause they're a more spiritual holistic (add other trendy new age phrase here) brand of tampon, is utter fucking bullshit. Knowledge of self is free, all one has to have is patience, and an open mind. Granted that's almost impossible to do with "normal living", but that's why people like Jesus only come around sparringly. Looking at yourself honestly and expressing that even if it causes you physical and mental pain, is a difficult thing to do. On top of that you have people that'll call you crazy. Normals don't understand more advanced life forms because they are for the most part unconcious. You can be intelligent, yet not be able to think for yourself. Evolution comes from constantly asking yourself, is this what I'd like to know myself as? Then acting on it.

[This message has been edited by ilbastardoh (edited 03-23-2004).]

sounds more like bending FAITH to do a leaders will. this occured when Bin Laden fed their muslim nations bullshit about how if they dont do Allah's willing then they will die.

Muslim is a religion that emphasizes love, not hate, but when religion is used by the wrong hands to do the wrong things, then anyone can blame just the religion for the maluse.

Christianity expresses love, just like any other religion believing in God, and leaders have abused the faith that people had in God, to get their population to do things that clearly they didn't want to do, but since they held their faith so close, they did them FOR their faith, showing commitment to their faith and spirituality. It doesn't mean Christianity was created to punish others, Christianity is an aid to regular people, and expresse love and equality, its the rulers of the time, like you said, that said all that bullshit, if they said it alone, then no one would've believed em, but since they involved God in it, alot more people payed more attention. Doesn't mean Christianity is evil, just the people who abused faith for their own bidding.



Edit: I'd just like to add. Me, being Christian, i dont give all my choices to God. believe it or not, i THINK i have a brain ^_^ and i make my decisions on my own, ofcourse my faith has its role in them, but they dont say. "Should i take math? No. Hitler took math, hitler is evil, therefore dont take math." nothing like that. Religion to me expresses people coming together and helping eachother. Understand and realize this.

[This message has been edited by exesept (edited 03-24-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by exesept:



Muslim is a religion

[This message has been edited by exesept (edited 03-24-2004).]

No it isnt

although there are Muslims, who follow a religion known as Islam

I didn't put the details in for expediency. I think this deserves its own thread- and ive mentioned references and links before- so i will create a new thread shortly.

Just to get the ball rolling...

http://www.truthnet.org/Christianity/Apologetics/oldtestament9/

‘I know of no finding in archaeology that’s properly confirmed which is in opposition to the Scriptures. The Bible is the most accurate history textbook the world has ever seen.’

Dr Clifford Wilson, formerly director of the Australian Institute of Archaeology

And these are by no means all there is.