The religious Institutions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) insult our intelligence.

Why do they never give us any reasoning, any logic to believe in the existence of God? They expect us to just 'belief' without questioning the glaring inconsistencies behind their ludicrous, self degrading hymns or those ridiculous holy books with guys with long hair being stronger than guys with short hair.

There is actually scientific arguments for the existence of a Creator. The 'Design' and 'Cosmological' theories offer a logical basis to God's existence. But the church doesn't seem to know of them or care to talk to us on an intelligent level.

I believe in creation. The universe can't just pop into existence out of nothingness. It breaks the laws of physics. Its also very coincidental for the Universe to have the right amount and temperature of matter for life to exist.

I wish a bishop, any bishop got out of this notion that we should all be hereditary believers without an ounce of intellect and actually put up a decent case for God and subsequently, a decent case for themselves.

I'm not sure what you mean by "religious institutions". Are you talking about the bible, the church, believers, God, Jesus, Abraham, Moses, Mohammed, the Pope?

Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth".

John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

The bible's goal is not to sway you to believe, it exists to provide an account of God work and the people who lived during it's writing. In the same way that history books don't try to "prove" the holocaust happened. The bible is like God's autobiography. The goal of an autobiography isn't to prove it's subject existed.

If you think "the Church" doesn't give you any reasoning, then either you haven't actually asked your pastor/priest/etc, or your pastor/priest/etc isn't doing his/her job. God calls Christian to provide a defense for anyone who wants to know why we believe what we believe:

1 Peter 3:15: "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear"

Moreover, God calls us to justify our own faith with reason, so that we actually believe that our faith is true:

2 Timothy 2:15: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

According to the bible, the Christian church is not any one church, it is all believers:

Romans 12:4-5: "For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office; So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another."



As far as Christianity is concerned, I believe your post is totally unfounded. The answers you seek are out there, you're just not asking for them, or you're asking the wrong people.

I can't speak for Islam because I don't have good knowledge of it, nor do i feel the need to defend it as i am a Christian. Likewise, I can't speak for the Catholic church because I am not catholic.

PS: how is a hymn self-degrading?

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

I'm not sure what you mean by "religious institutions". Are you talking about the bible, the church, believers, God, Jesus, Abraham, Moses, Mohammed, the Pope?

I'm talking about the bible, the church and the different sects of religion.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth".

John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

The bible's goal is not to sway you to believe, it exists to provide an account of God work and the people who lived during it's writing.

Reciting the Bible doesn't offer me the scientific reasoning surrounding the greatest question of all time. The bible comes from the perspective that It is infallible and can not be disputed (something to do with the repressive times it was constructed). This means it can say such things as "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth" and not be mocked.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

In the same way that history books don't try to "prove" the holocaust happened. The bible is like God's autobiography. The goal of an autobiography isn't to prove it's subject existed.

History books use facts and figures from the events of the time. Yet we still expect factual evidence backing the claims of the deaths of six million Jews. I also think a subject at the centre of humanity's purpose in life should be able to stand up to scrutiny.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

If you think "the Church" doesn't give you any reasoning, then either you haven't actually asked your pastor/priest/etc, or your pastor/priest/etc isn't doing his/her job. God calls Christian to provide a defense for anyone who wants to know why we believe what we believe:

The church is desperately trying to increase its umbers and popularity. Yet it can't achieve this without broadcasting a defence capable of countering scientific attacks. Today's generation require more than God did this, God did that to take it seriously.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

As far as Christianity is concerned, I believe your post is totally unfounded. The answers you seek are out there, you're just not asking for them, or you're asking the wrong people.

I think you misunderstood me. I have answers, but I had to search for them through science. Through science products/books/sites and physics. The church is utterly useless at defending the faith. I seriously doubt your average vicar/priest etc can overcome an atheist in a debate of reason and logic.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

PS: how is a hymn self-degrading?

There all about worship and our inferiority to God.

right the fuck on man.im glad im not the only one on earth who thinks this way.

I'm not sure you understood what i was saying about the bible. The bible doesn't exist to "prove" anything. It's a testament, an eyewitness. If you don't think the various witnesses are credible, that's you're call to make, but all the bible is saying is "We've seen this stuff happen". If I saw a UFO, it's not my responsibility to scientifically prove such a thing is possible.

You sound like you already have been satisfied that a god of some kind exists, so what's you problem? Obviously, you feel that the center of humanity's purpose does stand up to scrutiny, contrats. I feel the same way. I've talked to many pastors and religious philosophers who can also make the case for god and Jesus very convincing. You may be correct saying that the average church leader doesn't know enough to make such a convincing case, but that's pretty subjective.

Basically I feel like you're making a bold, negative blanket statement without really providing any sort of personal expirience of fact backing up your claim.

As for Hymns, if the type of diety in the bible actually exists, i think it's fair to say we are infinitly inferior to it/him/her.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

As for Hymns, if the type of diety in the bible actually exists, i think it's fair to say we are infinitly inferior to it/him/her.

Is a child inferior to it's parent? Infinitely inferior?

namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by The Crusader:



Why do they never give us any reasoning, any logic to believe in the existence of God? They expect us to just 'belief' without questioning the glaring inconsistencies behind their ludicrous, self degrading hymns or those ridiculous holy books with guys with long hair being stronger than guys with short hair.



You need to stop taking the religions of others so personally. Nobody's "insulting your intelligence." The holy books don't offer any evidence because, when they were written, nobody wanted any.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Basically I feel like you're making a bold, negative blanket statement without really providing any sort of personal expirience of fact backing up your claim.

A small stereotype of course but just about every religious person i speak to has offered the most ludicrous rationale to believing in God. They're what i call hereditary believers. The intelligence behind the church has to reform itself if it's to be taken seriously by our children's children. (This applies more to Western Europe than America at the current time)

Also, it may sound rather inconsequential, but just as most people don't walk into science laboratories to find answers to their questions...most people (especially youngsters) won't walk into a church and ask the vicar out of the blue the logic behind God's existence.

This type of apathy is most often demonstrated in politics and the media. Instead of going looking for reliable sources of information and even, dare I say it, the Truth, most people look at the daily tabloid newspaper and actually allow themselves to be swayed by its drivel. E.g. the 1992 British General Election – Its the Sun Wot Won It

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

As for Hymns, if the type of diety in the bible actually exists, i think it's fair to say we are infinitly inferior to it/him/her.

Religious people don't disagree to God's supreme superiority. But hymns make God sound petty and egocentric.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

You need to stop taking the religions of others so personally.

I'm a christened catholic not that that matters as the church in this country is crying out for more parishioners. And of course I'm going to take religion personally, what is more personal than praying to God or defining one's individual purpose in life?

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Nobody's "insulting your intelligence." The holy books don't offer any evidence because, when they were written, nobody wanted any.

I accept that but if organised religion (at least in Western Europe) is to not degenerate into obscurity in future generations, the church has to launch a reasoned debate to counter science's determination to deride religion.

I'm supposed to be starting up a band next year, and I've written alot of songs. Some songs started because of the phraises I've seen on this sight, and I wrote a kickass song with some of your lines.(if we Make It, I'll definately remember you guys) http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

I'ts great to have someone in the world who thinks like me. What you said about those stupid degrading hymns and stories was like a drug for my mind, complete euphoria. And the idiocy of long haird men being better than the short haired ones.

It seems like in most films and shows, the hero is always a long-blonde-haired dude, with blue eyes. I guess inadvertedily(I know it's not correct spelling) in our minds we've(as a nation) achieved Hitlers goal.

BTW: Yeah your right, there is scientific evidence of a higher being, but I think the Bishops & clergymen fear there is far more evidence that there isn't. Or fear that there God isn't the god they make Him out to be.

Your example of The Sun and the influence of popular ideas is a good one- and it works on both sides.

In the same way that many religious types accept something of itself, there are just as many atheists and agnostics that would do the same thing- many don't really investigate it for themself, rather it is the "hereditary" idea in action.

But simply because not everyone knows the basis for what they claim to believe, doesn't mean that there is not a legitimate basis for such a belief. For instance, in Totse the majority of non-theists generally have thought through the reasons and issues surrounding what they believe. Go out on the street and most of the non-theists you meet probably wouldn't be able to give you a decent reason- rather its based on popular opinion.

In the same, simply because many Theists i.e Christians may not know the arguments surrounding their beliefs, it doesn't preclude the existence of such arguments and evidences (although there appears to be a significant "dumbing down" occuring in western christian culture).

Personally, i'm a christian because i consider the evidence to point to its truth. Even if i had a good rational, logical argument for an existence of theistic entity (or lack thereof), that on its own would not automatically confer existence to it.

If you had bothered to look for yourself at the things that support christianity, you would see that it is not simply an unfounded belief or "faith", but a response to a person and a series of events that occurs in time and space.

[This message has been edited by inquisitor_11 (edited 03-23-2004).]