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choda
2004-03-31, 03:21
About thirteen years ago my life and my faith both were changed forever while searching for answers that I use to have about the Christianity and the Bible. It was not that I never believed in the Bible, yes, indeed I did believe in the Bible almost all my life until I reverted to Islam. But it was the Bible itself that gave me the proof to reject the Christianity and the Bible both. The Chapter 3 of Gospel according to John is the lifeline of the New Testament and the verse John 3:16 is the fake jewel in the fake crown of Christianity. Christian scholars have admitted that this verse John 3:16 is a later insertion, but that has hardly been my concern. The real issue for me has always been the verse John 3: 17. Let me also point out that in the New Testament at many places what Jesus is said to have uttered was not understood by the disciples and Jesus is not seen to have made any attempt to clear things up for his disciples, we find a classic example of this in John chapter 3: 1-12; let me quote John 3:16-17 before I point out the main problem.



KJV John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him MIGHT be saved.



There has always been a serious problem with the word everlasting used in 3:16 above. But the major problem lies in the verse 3:17 where the word MIGHT is used.



The word “might” is a clear proof that salvation by following Christianity and believing in Jesus is not only highly questionable but is contrary to the fact.



The word might is the past tense of word may, which is used in the English language to indicate a condition or state contrary to fact. Please keep this in mind that this is not my opinion, it is a fact that can be verified by using any good English dictionary or grammar rules book. Let me quote the American Heritage Dictionary to prove my point:



might2 (mºt) aux.v. Past tense of may1. 1.a. Used to indicate a condition or state contrary to fact: She might help if she knew the truth. b. Used to indicate a possibility or probability that is weaker than may: We might discover a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. 2. Used to express possibility or probability or permission in the past: She told him yesterday he might not go on the trip. 3. Used to express a higher degree of deference or politeness than may, ought, or should: Might I express my opinion? [Middle English, from Old English meahte, mihte, first and third person sing. past tense of magan, to be able. See MAY1.]



Now who want to believe in something like John 3:16 that Jesus was alleged son of god or god himself, but John 3:17 tells us that salvation is not a matter of fact but rather it is contrary to the fact.



3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.



Why would some one follow a religion in which salvation is not possible and is contrary to the fact according to John 3:17; let alone guaranteed?



Let me also quote some other eye opening facts showing why I am not Christian and why you shouldn’t be as well?



Jesus and his Mother Tongue



This lack of information is so broad that we are kept in ignorance of many of Jesus’ most fundamental attributes. If a full list of his sayings has never been known to his followers, have scholars at least agreed on what tongue these sayings may have been uttered in? The gospels, as well as Christian writers from past and present, have failed to provide any answer with certainty. Among the guesswork of early scholars in the regard, we have:



a Galilaean dialect of Chaldiac (J.J.Scaliger); Syriac (Claude Saumaise); the dialect of Onkelos and Jonathan (Brian Walton); Greek (Vosius); Hebrew (Delitzsch and Resch); Aramaic (Meyer); and even Latin (Inchofer, for “the Lord cannot have used any other language upon earth, since this is the language of the saints in heaven”). (See Schweitzer, pp. 271, 275.)



The above quote obviously proves that Christians don’t have any clue that what was the mother tongue of Jesus.



CANON MONTEFIORE: WAS JESUS GAY?



Speaking of Jesus at the Modern Churchmen’s conference at Oxford, 1967, Canon Hugh Montefiore, Vicar of Great St. Mary, Cambridge, stated:



“Women were his friends, but it is men he is said to have loved. The striking fact was that he remained unmarried, and men who did not marry usually had one of the three reasons: they could not afford it; there were no girls; or they were homosexual in nature. (See The Times, July 28, 1967.)



In the above quote here the Vicar of Great St. Mary; Cambridge is admitting that Jesus was Gay.



Martin Luther: Jesus Committed Adultery Thrice



Martin Luther also negates the image of a sinless Jesus. This is to be found in Luther’s Table-Talk (See Weimer edition, ii: 107) whose authenticity has never been challenged even though the coarser passages are cause for embarrassment. Arnold Lunn writes:



Weimer quoted a passage from the Table-Talk in which Luther states that Christ committed adultery three times, first with the woman at the well, secondly with Mary Magdalene, and thirdly with the woman taken in adultery, “whom he let off so lightly. Thus even Christ who was so holy had to commit adultery before he died.” (See Arnold Lunn, The Revolt Against Reason, Eyre & Spottiswoode (Publishers), London, 1950, p.233.)



Following is the original!



“Christus adulter. Christus ist am ersten ein ebrecher worden Joh. 4, bei dem brunn cum muliere, quia illi dicebant: Nemo significat, quit facit cum ea? Item cum Magdalena, item cum adultera Joan. 8, die er so leicht dauon lies. Also mus from Christus auch am ersten ein werden ehe er starb.“



Jesus and his message: Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand



All sources for the so-called teachings of Jesus emanate from the anonymous authors. Herman Reimarus (1694-1768) was the first to attempt a historical modeling of Jesus. In this he drew a distinction between what lies written in the gospels and what Jesus himself proclaimed during his lifetime, concluding that his actual teachings can be summed up,



In two phrases of identical meaning, ‘Repent, and believe the Gospel,’ or, as it is put elsewhere, ‘Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” (See Schweitzer,p. 16)



Because he never went on to explain either of these phrases, Reimarus argues that Jesus was working and preaching within wholly Jewish framework, content with having his audience understand ‘the Kingdom of Heaven’ in the Jewish context. Namely that he was Deliverer of Israel. The intention of setting up a new religion never existed. (See ibid, pp. 16-18)



The Implications of the Term ‘Christian’ in the Early Days



In fact, it appears likely that the term ‘Christian’ was merely an invention of Roman propaganda, for in the early days,



“the name ‘Christian’ was associated with all kind of detestable crime-this, too, is a common feature of the political propaganda, and the author of 1 Peter… admonishes his readers not to suffer for the things which for the populace were implied in the name ‘Christian,’ (4:15) 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. (See Dictionary of the Bible, p. 138)



The early church busied itself with fighting this ‘Christian’ appellation, which in Roman minds was equated with a breed of criminals. Examining the origins of this terminology implies that it was Romans, and not the earliest Christians, who were eager to distinguish followers of the new religion from ancient Israelite tradition. In fact, the early church was content to designate the new religion simply as the Way, as in the ‘Way of the Lord,’ the ‘Way of Truth,’ the ‘Way of Salvation,’ and the ‘Way of Righteousness.’ (See Dictionary of the Bible, p. 139)



The above-cited facts are a brief account of truth about the Bible and Christianity, you must ask yourself the following questions:



1. Do I really want to convert or follow to a religion (Christianity) whose god himself is not guaranteeing MY salvation according to its scripture?



(3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.)



2. “might be saved” is contrary to the fact as explained above, so why should I remain a Christian or convert to Christianity?



I reverted to Islam after reading the Qur’aan and pondering upon its teachings. Islam guarantees a Jew or a Christian double reward in the Hereafter, and guaranteed forgiveness of all past sins including a guaranteed salvation without any ambiguity and confusion. I know that Islam is the same message from Adam to Muhammad (peace be upon all the messengers/propehets).

Hexadecimal
2004-03-31, 04:02
You're still believing without proof. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

*FuckBeast*
2004-03-31, 04:35
Good point man, you know i once was also a "christian" but then i realized how much bs there is!

theBishop
2004-03-31, 08:13
Doesn't "revert" suggest that you are backpedaling or "devolving" to Islam. I'm not sure that's the word you want to be using.

I can't help but think it's a bit goofy to renounce your faith based on grammar. I'm no expert but i believe "might" is being used here to mean that everyone has the opportunity to be saved through Jesus, but many will reject him. "Might" here sort of points to our free will. Jesus' death allows the possibility that the whole world could enter into heaven, if they chose to do so.

Everyone questions their faith. I know i've questioned parts of the bible myself, but i'm not sure this should really be the hinge that your faith pivots on.

choda
2004-03-31, 18:07
quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Doesn't "revert" suggest that you are backpedaling or "devolving" to Islam. I'm not sure that's the word you want to be using.

I can't help but think it's a bit goofy to renounce your faith based on grammar. I'm no expert but i believe "might" is being used here to mean that everyone has the opportunity to be saved through Jesus, but many will reject him. "Might" here sort of points to our free will. Jesus' death allows the possibility that the whole world could enter into heaven, if they chose to do so.

Everyone questions their faith. I know i've questioned parts of the bible myself, but i'm not sure this should really be the hinge that your faith pivots on.

i use the word "Revert"

not "Convert", because in Islam, we belive that all people are born Muslim, its just that your parents tell you to be a Christian or a Jew. so you are Re-verting back to your origional religion.

choda
2004-03-31, 18:14
quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

You're still believing without proof. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

the Quran has so much proof in it, its impossible for anyone to posses such knolage from that time, about 1400 years ago. for example, the beginning of the universe, i.e. the BIG BANG!

it describes how the universe was created:



"Haven't the unbelievers seen that the heavens and the earth were joined together (in one singularity), then we clove both of them asunder.” (21:30)

(the word used as "heaven" is the closest way to describe the arabic word used - because there are many words that have such a complex meaning in arabic, that there is no english word for it)

"Then He (Allah) turned to the sky while it was smoke, and ordered it the earth to come into being willingly or unwillingly, they answered: we do come in willing obedience" (41: 11)

that describes how the earth was being formed in its three main stages we now know of, when the earth was still in "smoke" state, where gravity pulled it together to form the earth and atmosphere.

thats just 1 of thousands of scientific facts, remember we are talking 1,400 years ago.

ashesofzen
2004-03-31, 18:39
choda:

...1. Do I really want to convert or follow to a religion (Christianity) whose god himself is not guaranteeing MY salvation according to its scripture?...

I don't know, do you? Does Islam really guarantee YOUR salvation according to its scripture? Is there no way to end up outside of Paradise?

...2. “might be saved” is contrary to the fact as explained above, so why should I remain a Christian or convert to Christianity?...

Perhaps, the statement "might be saved" is meant in regards to whether one repents of his or her sins? That Jesus wasn't sent to condemn men for their transgressions, but rather, to give them a chance to truly repent?

choda
2004-03-31, 19:22
quote:Originally posted by ashesofzen:

choda:

...1. Do I really want to convert or follow to a religion (Christianity) whose god himself is not guaranteeing MY salvation according to its scripture?...

I don't know, do you? Does Islam really guarantee YOUR salvation according to its scripture? Is there no way to end up outside of Paradise?

...2. “might be saved” is contrary to the fact as explained above, so why should I remain a Christian or convert to Christianity?...

Perhaps, the statement "might be saved" is meant in regards to whether one repents of his or her sins? That Jesus wasn't sent to condemn men for their transgressions, but rather, to give them a chance to truly repent?

well, it wasnt just based on that one word, you can say John 3:17 was the "final straw".

after i started questioning my belife, i came to that conclusion. for example false prophecies. some are true, as we (muslims) belive in some parts of the Torah and Bible (old testiment version). the New testement is fabrication, full of lies.

for example, look at this: Ariel Sharon's "Security Fence" (the great wall that will cover all of Palestine and Israel) CONTRADICTS the Biblical Prophecy in Ezekiel 38:11:

Let us look at Ezekiel 38:11:

"And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, (From the King James Version Bible, Ezekiel 38:11)"

When Israel finishes its "Security Fence" project, which will literally cover all of the lands of Israel and Palestine combined, then this by itself will be a contradiction to Ezekiel 38:11 prophecy, because the Israelis will then have walls protecting them.

as i said earlier: "we (muslims) belive in some parts of the Torah and Bible (old testiment version). the New testement is fabrication, full of lies."

WHY do we belive these? because All the holy scriptures (from the begining of man (Adam) to Mohammed (peace be apon them all), that claim to have a message from ONE god, only ONE god, not thousands (like hindus) are talking of the ONE same GOD!

therefor what Jews, some christian and Muslims pray to is the SAME God! (i say some christians, as most belive in Jesus as the Lord, where as he is really one of the GREATEST Prophet (peace be apon him))

you may be saying "wait a minuite i dont pray to "Allah". who is this "Allah?". well, for your information, the Word "Allah" is ARABIC for GOD!

if you go to any Arabic BIBLE, and read its ARABIC translation, the word in which u would see "GOD" in english is replace by "Allah", and same with the Jewish scripture translated to ARABIC!

so therefore its the same GOD (or ALLAH in arabic) that the people of the book (Torah, bible and Quran) pray to!

ashesofzen
2004-03-31, 20:49
...I already knew that.

As for the security fence, do you expect it to be in place for the rest of time?

choda
2004-03-31, 21:11
quote:Originally posted by ashesofzen:

...I already knew that.

As for the security fence, do you expect it to be in place for the rest of time?

no, but maybe for a long time to come maybe, but as i said, it said that NO wall, so that automatically makes it a false prophecy, cos there IS a wall there.

choda
2004-03-31, 21:17
quote:Originally posted by ashesofzen:

...I already knew that.

As for the security fence, do you expect it to be in place for the rest of time?

what is your religion, if i may ask? and where do u stand in terms of level of belife? do u go church every sunday? or are u "christian by name" ?

ashesofzen
2004-03-31, 23:40
I really cannot say, honestly. At this point, I don't agree well with any of 'em. Buddhism has its appeal, and most others are interesting. But I don't see religion as terribly necessary in my life.

Level of belief in what?

I haven't gone to church regularly since...about four years ago.

choda:

for example, look at this: Ariel Sharon's "Security Fence" (the great wall that will cover all of Palestine and Israel) CONTRADICTS the Biblical Prophecy in Ezekiel 38:11:

Let us look at Ezekiel 38:11:

"And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, (From the King James Version Bible, Ezekiel 38:11)"

Firstly, where does it say that the modern state of Israel is the land that is being spoken of?

Secondly, where does it state "the land that shall never have walls?

That is, how do you know that a prophecy has failed simply because it has yet to come true? All throughout history, men have tried to second-guess and interpret the Bible.

edit: Addition

edit.2: Addition

[This message has been edited by ashesofzen (edited 03-31-2004).]

exesept
2004-04-01, 01:25
good for you. gratz to Jesus for getting some ass, come on, he was only human too =) hahah i think i have even more respect for him now rofl hahahaha



the point about Jesus: he went through torture, punishment, humiliation, harassment, and even painstaking death, all for us.

i dunno about you, but that means something to me, im not gonna let something that Martin Luther say about him fucking 3 girls and commiting adultury stop that, respect to Jesus is shown through me everyday, i love the guy so much, i don't know how my life would be without him



Anyways, after reading how your views on muslim are, wow, you sound like some guy that got a better phone plan.

"MY CELL PHONE GIVES ME 500+ EXTRA MINUTES AND FREE WEEKENDS!"

"MY RELIGION GUARANTEES SALVATION AND FORGIVENESS!! YIPEEE"

choda
2004-04-01, 01:33
ashesofzen:

lets look at the Ezekiel (38th) chapter from verse 8 to 11

38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

straight away we can see it is refering to israel, stating that israel is "brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them."

with the current middle-east state, i dont even need to say anything further.

38:9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

refering to the 2nd comming of jesus (peace be upon him)

38:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:

pretty straight forward

38:11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates

(israel) which i talked about this earlier.

choda
2004-04-01, 02:21
quote:Originally posted by exesept:

good for you. gratz to Jesus for getting some ass, come on, he was only human too =) hahah i think i have even more respect for him now rofl hahahaha



the point about Jesus: he went through torture, punishment, humiliation, harassment, and even painstaking death, all for us.

i dunno about you, but that means something to me, im not gonna let something that Martin Luther say about him fucking 3 girls and commiting adultury stop that, respect to Jesus is shown through me everyday, i love the guy so much, i don't know how my life would be without him



Anyways, after reading how your views on muslim are, wow, you sound like some guy that got a better phone plan.

"MY CELL PHONE GIVES ME 500+ EXTRA MINUTES AND FREE WEEKENDS!"

"MY RELIGION GUARANTEES SALVATION AND FORGIVENESS!! YIPEEE"

well, thats not the point, because Jesus (the supposed "son of god") was supposed to not have any sexual relationship with any woman...he was, as christians say, son of god, so why does he need ass? that means he commited Adultry, and the punishment for adultery in the torah, bible and Quran? Death.

Edit: on the salvation point: why follow a religion if your not sure that you will be sucsessful in the hearafter?

thats like buying a car, and not being sure if it would be able to take you to your final destination.

i would much rather be in a car, that would garantee me to get where i want.

[This message has been edited by choda (edited 04-01-2004).]

inquisitor_11
2004-04-01, 07:37
choda, while your thread seems to have at least grasped some of the textual criticism directed at the bible, particularly the life of Christ, the points you have chosebn to bring up are quite poor.

Time doesn't allow for a full debunking but to start off:

re:John 3

Which christian scholars are these? The ending of Mark is quite widely considered to be a later insertion (this is marked in some of the more recent bibles) but ive never heard this one before.

Your (or is it?) whole thing is flawed in that your basing your argument on a)on the KJV, b)on the rendering of the passage in english c)as others have pointed out there is another depth of meaning.

John 3:16 is by no means the lynch pin of christian salvation doctrine. It is however, a popular quotation as it fits larger passages into a brief statement. There are many other similar statements.

What implication does Yeshu's mother tounge have to do with anything?

How is a vicar in 1967 going to know whether or not Yeshu was gay, other than the source texts and conspiracy theories?

Again, even if this quotation of Luther is genuine, how would he know? At best these are baseless assumptions.

Anonymous author theory- The "quest for the historical Jesus" didn't really kick off till the 1800's. Many secular scholars have attempted to make the "distinction between what lies written in the gospels and what Jesus himself proclaimed during his lifetime". Schweitzer's (1906) criticism is fundamentally flawed as he rely's on texts that are documentally considerably more dubious to reconstruct the reliable texts.

Most of this style of criticism has continued through to its current point with the "Jesus Seminar", which has taken a highly flawed approach to its subject matter. To breifly sumerise the problems with the Jesus Seminar and this style of criticism, they employ- "radical fringe scholarship", "unjustified anti-supernaturalism", "unfounded acceptance of late dates" and "logical fallacies".

"Despite their desire and achievements for drawing wide publicity, nothing is new in the Jesus Seminar's radical conclusions. They offer only another example of unsubstantiated negative Bible criticism. Their conclusions are contrary to the overwhelming evidence for the historicity of the New Testament and the reliabilty of the New Testament witnesses." - N. Geisler

"In spite of what some modern scholars claim, the extrabiblical evidence will not sustain their eccentric pictures of Jesus that attract such widespread media attention because of their novelty. In contrast to these idiosyncratic and ephemeral revisions, the orthodox view of Jesus still stands as the most credible portrait when all of the evidence is considered, including the corroboration offered by ancient sources outside the New Testament."- E.Yamauchi

<b>that describes how the earth was being formed in its three main stages we now know of, when the earth was still in "smoke" state, where gravity pulled it together to form the earth and atmosphere.</b>

The Quran is not unique in having parallels in its creation account, that doesn't undermine it's legitimacy though, i reckon it actually contributes to it.

Is Ezekiel 38 the best you can come up with? Problems? a) concerning the future i.e. an indefinately long period of time. b)as someone has already pointed out its not finished yet c)There are already many walls around many houses in Israel- as there was at the time. d)during the recently ended diaspora the land was home to next to no Jews. This does also negate the prophecy? What about the Jews that don't live there now?

If you want to get look at OT prophecies I strongly suggest you sit down with a copy of the OT and an encylopedia- a good place to start is Tyre and Sidon, off the top of my head.

Which lies are you referring to in the NT? I can just as well qualified say that anything ever written is full of lies, but it means nothing.

To conclude,you can delete the whole 3rd chapter of John if you want and see if that changes any doctrine- especially salvation by God's grace.